[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: It's lovely to see you, Pia. And have you been following the, what has become known as the Twitter debacle or the Musk going 

[00:00:23] Pia: town. The town hall sacrificing station. Yes, I have, I have, I've been listening to Pivot, Carra Swisher, and the prof. Oh, 

[00:00:34] Dan: The prof. Scott Galloway.

[00:00:36] Pia: Yeah, it's been great. Great. Listening to those two. It's really interesting actually because I think we're still slightly seduced by what we perceive to be, you know, incredible intelligence. This man is genius. Surely there must be a plan in this, even though he's doing some things that are quite question.

[00:00:57] Yes, the business is in is in trouble. You want some level of decisiveness. You want something that is gonna make a difference quickly,

[00:01:07] Dan: That's right. but is he 

[00:01:09] Pia: is he doing it?

[00:01:10] Dan: I agree. Actually, I used to have this thought about Steve Jobs. I used to look to Steve Jobs for examples of leadership and, and I actually think Steve Jobs is a, was a genius on the level of Edison and possibly Musk is a genius as well.

[00:01:21] But for some reason we sort of imbued them with additional powers, don't we? You know, they've run amazing businesses, becoming very wealthy and then therefore we think they can sort of do anything/ and obviously they, more importantly think they can do anything. 

[00:01:34] But, yeah, I was thinking about this. If you, um, if you think that Musk can turn his mind to anything. I have three words for you. Thai Cave Rescue where he, you know, offered a, offered a massive submarine for a tiny, tiny cave entrance and, uh, um, it just

[00:01:50] Pia: When he was criticized, he didn't, he didn't call them a torpedo, he just called them pedos. 

[00:01:55] Dan: Pedo. Exactly. So he just lashed out. But I think that's a good example of where he probably is a genius, but not in all fields. And I suspect that taking over social media, um, network of such importance is one of those,

[00:02:08] Pia: Well, I mean, you know, they say there's a big ego attached here, and when you've got power and you've got a lot of money, we, we've bred this world for people to think that, you know, they can do and say anything and get away with it, you know, And It doesn't take an amateur psychologist to understand this guy's got a lot of trauma that may not be resolved.

[00:02:28] You know, you read his autobiography, you know, very, very clever guy, but always a little bit on the outer. Never feeling like he fitted in. Had a horrid bullying at school. You know, I just sort of feel like this is payback time he's doing at the moment. It's a bit like I'm rich, I'm powerful, suck it up. everyone, I'm gonna make the decisions that's not leader. That's, that's that's using your status, you know, to to get the outcomes that you want. But I mean, at the end of the day, Twitter may go under and he's got a, he's got a lot of investors that he's gotta appease, as well as trying to turn around a platform. 

[00:03:03] Dan: Yeah, and I mean, his mere presence, as I think destroyed about 20 billion in value of the platform already. The thing is, I think as we know, it's. It was an organization that wasn't that well run for a long time. It needed, needs some work. So it's not as if this was all going smoothly, but I think this is a Me Not We moment, as you say, he's weighted in, thinks he knows what he is doing. Whereas actually could have spoken to a lot more people before he made these, these big decisions. You know, the blue tick, moderation, moving everyone into the office. These are all things that actually, if he'd had conversations, brought people around him to understand the complexities of those, those issues, I think it would have a better outcome because some of those things are going to lose either big Twitter users, advertisers, and employees. I think he's going to alienate a lot of people. And a few conversations would probably have saved him from that. And say, not to say that didn't need something doing it did, but no, it's the how.

[00:04:01] Pia: But it's also an interesting thing too that, what will happen to our world tomorrow if Twitter stops? Like, actually, like when you really look at this and you look at some of the complexity and the importance that some people's roles of leadership is life and death, Well, we just find another platform. It really doesn't matter that much because humans have got away. They want their voice to be heard. They wanna be able to have debates, they wanna be able to have humor, and we found an opportunity. You know, if I was running TikTok, I'd be laughing all the 

[00:04:36] Dan: be, laughing like, Yeah, this would be great, wouldn't it? And I think as you say, in a world that, where we need more nuances and more understanding of each other, the direction he's taking in is exactly what we don't need. But just turning our minds back to leadership for a moment, there are times when you need to take swift action. aren't there. 

[00:04:57] Pia: You do life and 

[00:04:58] Dan: yeah, exactly. And it leads me into our, our, our Guest today because I had this, um, I was actually out with a Julie Juliet, my wife and I were out with a guide, um, many years ago now. Um, and you know, the, the situation changed and his style of leadership changed. Because he became, went from being very mild mannered, sweet guy to being incredibly, uh, well more than directive. And we had to move off that mountain, otherwise we might, otherwise we might get killed by falling rocks.

[00:05:27] But it made me think about, wow, that, that life of the mountain guide, they have to be quite. They had to be very effective leaders because they take on their, they're these unfortunate people who get a new team every week or every day even to say, Right, we not only have to cohere, but we are going to immediately go and do dangerous things. And while that's not always directive leadership that's required, it's just fascinating me to see how that's, that, how complex that task was. It's not just the skills, but actually how they engage with those others. So I thought a mountaineering guide would make a great guest for us.

[00:05:59] Pia: What a clever idea. My God. You should run. You should run. 

[00:06:04] Dan: then TikTok will be very happy, I'm sure. 

[00:06:06] Pia: Yeah, exactly. So who is? Tell us about our, our guest then.

[00:06:10] Dan: So we're gonna talk to Tania Noakes today. She was in the army, but she came out and she, she's really someone who spent her time and makes a living in the mountains. So it'll be really fascinating to see what she's got to say. What I will say before we hear from Tania is that being a mountaineering guide, we spoke to her from a tiny village in Sardinia, up in the mountains. So the, She, it felt like it sometimes. So the, the internet, the connection she had was not that great. So I hope our listeners will bear with us to see what Tania has to say. But let's, um, shoot over there now and um, have a little chat with Tania. Okay.

[00:06:44] 

[00:06:44] Dan: Tania a really warm welcome to We Not Me. Thank you so much for being with us

[00:06:52] Tania: It's a pleasure.

[00:06:53] Dan: It's great to have you. It's great to have you. All right, Tania. So as you know, we go straight into the conversation starter card game. So I'm build, I'm choosing a card at random for you just to chuck you in at the deep end. It's the opposite of a slow warmup. so Oh, the thing I once wore that makes me cringe. So So have you ever worn anything and you look back and say, Oh my, what? What was I doing?

[00:07:18] Tania: I'm not sure that there's anything that I look back and cringe at. I do remember when I was very, very young. I had a, a real team to wear some kind of C&A, orange and white, you know, one of these fancy di dresses, and I can't imagine wearing anything like that now, but I was determined I was gonna wear it then.

[00:07:39] Pia: I think I, I had to wear a dress a little bit like that as a bridesmaid once for for one of my friends, and I've been receiving therapy ever since actually,

[00:07:51] Tania: you forced to? The thing is this thing with the CNO dress, I really wanted it so you know.

[00:07:55] Pia: Ah, yes. I think I didn't,

[00:07:58] Dan: well, I did get completely kissed out once for a party at C&A as well in, and it, it, the theme was definitely brown. I remember brown chords on a brown tank top, and I thought it was the best thing at the time. So, yeah similar experience. Tania

[00:08:12] Pia: I'm coming to a brown party that says a lot for the seventies, doesn't it? Um, Tania really keen to know. A bit about you and a bit about your background. Just. paint a picture for us. Who are you and what do you do?

[00:08:28] Tania: I guess in a nutshell if there is a nutshell, I, I'm, I work as a mountain guide. I'm an if F M D A, uh, accredited professional, and I've been qualified now for just under 10 years. But I, I don't really want to, and I've never wanted to define myself just as a mountain guide as something that I do, something that I enjoy doing and, and has facilitated a life that I'm very happy with.

[00:08:55] But to succinctly say what I see myself as is probably pretty difficult. I kind of view life as a journey and, uh, that you have to kind of keep reinventing yourself to fit the new times. And I do feel at the moment I'm in a bit of a a reinventing stage.

[00:09:13] Dan: And across that range of activities, Tania, what what really drives you? What's, What's, Is there anything that joins all that together for you?

[00:09:21] Tania: I enjoy being out in the natural environment. Outside. I think one of, I found covid and lockdown very difficult because I spent much more time indoors than I'd ever spent. I enjoy the contact with nature and feeling that you're part of a bigger whole and all of the, the work and the journeys and the adventures that I try to put together for my clients are in that theme where I try help people reconnect with perhaps something that we've, we've lost on our modern life and journey. 

[00:09:59] So I guess that's the theme. I, I like a journey you can prepare and your, you've you've got the skills and then it's up to you to rise to the challenge. And a lot of things I've done personally or the things I try to create for my clients are in that theme.

[00:10:16] Dan: And how do you, how did you get to this? What's your background to reach this, uh, reach this point? 

[00:10:23] Tania: Yeah, I think I have a certain degree, gosh, I like, think I've got a certain degree of control over some of the decisions I've taken, but also I think, you know, life knocks you and buffets you in certain directions and suddenly find yourself and it's your whole life that's led you up to that point, I grew up, I grew up in the UK, in Essex, in a very very flat county.

[00:10:46] Pia: Okay, That's, that says it all. 

[00:10:51] Tania: Yeah, so I wanted to get out, No, and my parents were keen on journeys and traveling when I was a kid, so they took us on long journeys around Europe in a campervan, like a Volkswagen caravan when I was younger. That sort of planted a seed, definitely that travel, and then looking outwards and connecting with other nationalities and other people was okay So that definitely planted a seed. And then I, I'm, I went into the military when I left university, so I five years in the army, ostensibly because I wanted to do something that was a service and and useful and both physical and mental. So whether you disa, whether you agree or disagree with the, You know, that's a wider wider question. I was doing something, useful for society as a whole and necessary.

[00:11:41] In the end, I decided it wasn't the path for me, it was too structured and allow me to, to follow the path that I wanted So I left, but but I'm very grateful for the skills and that I learned when I was in there.

[00:11:53] Pia: I mean, it sounds like your life is a journey and you lead journeys. So tell us a little bit about the work what it's like when you've got a, a team of people that you are taking up a mountain or teaching them specific things at, in the wilderness. What do you notice about the way that people are working together?

[00:12:14] Tania: So I, I guess one of the things I should say straight away is that I'm quite fortunate that I see people at times when they're on holiday. they've decided to do this. They've, They've bought into it. It's not that they've been told to do this often. So something that they want to do, want to achieve perhaps even that, that they've dreamed of for a long time.

[00:12:35] Yes. It might be challenging for them. Yes. There might be some aspects of, discomfort or, uh, self realization or, change in. view of their themselves or their, the view of the challenge that they've undertaken along the way. But I think I'm fortunate that the people that I am dealing with largely want to be with me. although I take my nephews out and sometimes I don't think they want to be with me.

[00:13:02] Pia: No. So don't extend it to family. That doesn't always 

[00:13:05] work. 

[00:13:05] Tania: and and largely I'm working with private groups and groups of people who know each other already. do do work where I have groups of people coming together when they don't know each other, but I tend, It's not my preferred work because , sometimes there are mismatch of aspirations, mismatch of. And so I've elected to where possible not work with that group and work with groups that know each other already, and that there's already, um, the odds are stacked in my favor. Should I say

[00:13:44] But I've learned to be, I would say a chameleon, adaptable to fill the role that's necessary to make that work. So sometimes that might be an entertainer, sometimes that might be, um, a coordinator. You know, I I have learned over the years my role is to be the chameleon to, to fit and to provide it that are missing in that.

[00:14:10] Pia: mean, that's quite, that's intuitive. Tania. What, so what are you trying to achieve with these groups? What's the goal? Apart from the obvious but what's, I guess, what's the inner journey as well as the outer journey for them? 

[00:14:23] Tania: Well obviously I'm a mountain guide. I would like them to be safe. 

[00:14:26] Pia: Yeah. That's helpful. 

[00:14:28] Tania: A given, put that one to one side. I want them to have fun. I want them to learn a little bit about maybe the natural environment, but in a good way that's not a preachy way that, you know, that they can appreciate why it's important we look after collaboratively so that it's rather than it's, it's a lecture. You know, it's because some of these places that I take people to, they're quite sensitive. And so there's a problem with human waste. There's a problem with, with, uh, the impact of taking people there in the first place. And I'd like people to come to the end of of the, the trip having had a great time, lots of laughs, lots of fun, but also being able to move through that terrain with a bit more respect and less damaging and less impact. 

[00:15:19] Dan: The other part of, we've been chatting on WhatsApp over the last week or so, and um, you, you obviously are a recreational climber as well. You go out, actually have some fun climbing on the rock with a partner. Could you, for our listener, talk to us about how the mechanics of climbing work? How do you advance in a small, in a pair of climbers? 

[00:15:40] Tania: So if you're in a pair, one person has to climb up the rock face first and they'll put pieces of protection in, or they'll clip bolts depending on what type of crime you're doing. And then they'll get up to the first position where they're going to secure themselves safely and bring up their partner and then they attach themselves safely to the rock face, bring up the spare rope, and then when the rope's tight on the person below, they then put the person below on a belay device to secure them safely. And then they they take in the rope as the second person climbs up the rock face and takes all of the, either the quick draws or the the protection out. 

[00:16:19] in my spare time over the last few weeks. I've been doing a few of these multi picture rock climbs out in his here in Sardinia exploring, uh, the area around here. And I've, I climb with people I've known for a long time, and I also sometimes climb with people that I've never climbed with before and I don't.

[00:16:37] In fact, last week I climbed with a another mountain guide. He's actually a, an American qualified mounting guide. And I knew him socially, but we'd never tied in on a rope we climbed before. And we immediately did a 500 meter route together. Planning worked well, and I think one of the reasons that that's, that can be the case is because we're both professional guides, so we can know immediately that we've, we talk the same language or, well, obviously But, um, I can trust that he's going to do fairly standard things at fairly standard times, you know, and any kind of funny business. And there's a benchmark, There's a, a, a given bedrock of skills that I can just accept is there, because we both hold this professional qualification,

[00:17:26] if I, with another climber for the first time, who wasn't another professional guide. I think I'd be much more, more conservative in my route choice until I sensed feeling for where we were at, both in terms of their skill level, what they're gonna do at certain points and, and how well we communicate together. Cuz then you're right, you know, it's really important to have that right in these situations where there is risk if you make a mistake.

[00:17:59] In climbing. It's not always verbal though. You, You learn the rope as well, what the rope's doing and, and what you expect to happen at certain stages. And so long as everything is going as you would expect, the you know, the, the traffic lights are on green and it's all kind of happy. And then if something's slightly out of what you might expect, maybe your traffic lights on amber and you're looking out what's going here, I'm not sure. And and then something else will will, um, will happen and you'll hear a a shout that conforms something and then, you know, it's it back again and you're back to green. 

[00:18:37] It, it, you know, the other cues are there in terms of, um, what the rope's doing, what step we're at. You know if you've led them, how difficult it is at certain points. 

[00:18:53] Pia: it sounds tania like a, a, there's a lot of information that you've gotta take in about your environment and about the other person. Sounds like you need to be very tuned in. Because I guess circumstances can change pretty rapidly around you, so you need to have that ability to be able to connect and take all that information 

[00:19:12] Tania: Yeah, I think, I think most guide. They might not profess to it, but I think you've got to be a multitasker to a certain extent, particularly if you're working with a group and doing technical things. You know, you are, you're checking all the technical things, but perhaps also you are, you're talking and briefing to the groups at the same time. There are some times where I'm very clear with my groups that, you know, now is not the time to talk to me because I need a hundred percent focus on doing and, and I think we, it's great being a multitasker but there are certain times, particularly when the risk increases where you know, if you are a multitasker, you've got to opt into a more focused zone in order to get everything right. So there are times when I tell the clients, Okay, now I'm not going to speak to you. You need to to wait. I'll talk in a little bit because I need a hundred percent focus on this. 

[00:20:08] So, so I think most mounting guides, most professionals, they're they're able to multitask, but they also need to focus and they need to be a very clear, when they're perhaps switching from from one into the next. So on that amber zone, and red zone, I'm gonna switch into a more focused, and then when it's green, I'm gonna be multitasking, Quicken along. And

[00:20:33] Pia: Dan and I talk. It's like that toggling, isn't it? It's like changing that, that approach as you are, you know, as the situation changes.

[00:20:41] Dan: I think that's a really, that's such a great point. And actually something I think we don't do enough in everyday life is actually, we do things but we don't tell people what we're doing and they, they're left guessing quite a lot of the time. I think that's a fas that's a great skill.

[00:20:56] Tania: it's also putting people at ease. I really don't like it when when I come across a client that I'm, I'm instructing and they, and they tell me, Well, this is what I do, and I ask why they're doing it. And they have no idea why they're doing it. They've just been told that that's, you know, I, I, I a, I don't think people remember things very well if it's, if it's done without a reason. We gain so much more confidence and benefits if we understand why we're doing something. So that teaching role, developing understanding is I think quite a critical aspect of a mounting guide's job too.

[00:21:31] Dan: Tony, I just wanna also pick up on your point about being chameleon earlier, I think a lot of this is it's really clear that you are very conscious of not just what you're doing, but actually yeah, just how that's seen and the, the, the impact it's gonna have on other people.

[00:21:45] I actually go out with a mounting guide of number of times, uh, several years ago before children. And he was a very mild mannered gentle, sort of quiet chap. But we ended up a bit late in the day and the sun was on the rock, on the snow and we are in danger of rockfall. And he turned into a totally different person. He, he cranked up. I've known that I've ever been sworn at quite as much to basically move fast 

[00:22:12] Pia: You were lacking behind 

[00:22:13] Dan: Well, it incredibly, we were sort of, we felt we were going as fast as we could, but he would not give an inch and it was just incredible. And I imagine, is that something else you are conscious of in, in your chameleon, nature's actually adapting in that way your sort of up and down the ladder of assertiveness to be able to, where needed to change again into some, you know, adopt a different style to get things done? 

[00:22:38] Tania: Yeah, I, I my default isn't a command style of leadership. I prefer a collaborative approach. I remember when I went through Sandhurst and I remember on one of the command tasks on one of the exercises, one of the CEOs who was, marking and assessing this command task, debriefing me and debriefing me very firmly along the lines of, didn't I wanna be in command? Didn't I wanna take charge? What he wanted me to do was to display a command style of leadership, and I gave direction and I told everybody what to do exactly. As I say, it's not my preferred style, so I hadn't been doing that. I'd been trying to control the team along to a, to an extent he was right. Probably didn't quite get my style right then but my natural style isn't to be that. Something's gone wrong If I have to fall into that too much.

[00:23:39] Sometimes the unforeseen, Yeah, you have to react. React. But if you're doing that too much, it's, I think maybe there's something wrong with your planning or your choice you know, for me, for my per preferred style 

[00:23:54] Pia: based on your experiences, Tania, and then many of our listeners here are who some will have an interest in the outdoors in mountaineering. But what do you see about the best of teamwork that you experience high up on the side of a mountain and that our listeners could apply to whatever their field is?

[00:24:18] Tania: so the times when. Things have worked very well within the team, within a group. For me, it's when everyone's done what's required of them and they've done it well, and they've done it without complaint and with a positive attitude, and they've tried to take a step further by being ready to help with other things if necessary. So that they haven't been ready to stay, take that step back. They've been ready to take that step forward, and to help make the lives of everyone else within the group or the team just a bit easier. To make things more manageable. To carry a little bit extra of the load if, if you like.

[00:25:06] That process, that attitude, that approach, I I think's really really helpful. And it goes with a mindset of perhaps, of knowing that, generally most people are trying their best given circumstances. But if you control your best and then just try give a little bit more to make the other person's lives a bit easier, then everything's gonna work so much quicker.

[00:25:34] And so I think they're dangerous with that because of course, if someone's doing things efficiently and doing things well, we tend to kind of pile more onto that individual, So they're overburdened, you know, and. 

[00:25:44] And for the last three years I've been treasurer of the bmg. I'm about to hand over to my successor, and so I've had a further insight, I would say, into a different type of team, a more office based team, although it's been virtual working for a large part of that, and being guides, we're never really in the same office. But if you can imagine, guides are most often used to working in the physical environment in a person to person relationship. And so when they get on a computer or when they get into a kind of office mode, they're very different people and and it has sometimes felt like that same dynamic that we have on that hill has quite happened in the same way in a virtual context, in a office context.

[00:26:35] And so sometimes, if someone's doing the best they can, I like, you know, I like to have the philosophy that people are doing the best they can, but sometimes it's felt that in terms of administration and, uh, documentation, that same approach hasn't been evident in my workings in that environment.

[00:26:56] Dan: So the different sort of work modes and possibly different tasks have actually brought out different behaviors in, in the team, which I guess is a, is something to that any leader could watch out for actually is not to assume the team's going to be the same in, in different circumstances. Just to be really vigilant for that.

[00:27:15] Tania: Yeah. And I, I mean, it's hard I guess for me, I've never worked in an office, 

[00:27:21] Dan: You haven't missed anything, Tonya, if that helps.

[00:27:26] Tania: it sometimes it strikes me that, If we can maintain viewing the other person at the end of that connection as a human being, then we would, we would behave sometimes very differently than, than my experience occasionally. 

[00:27:40] Dan: Indeed. Indeed. Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, Tania, I think that's a, a wonderful point to end actually. I think that basic idea of remembering there's a human at the other end of whatever we're talking about, whether it's the conversation, the. an internet connection, a rope , I guess it doesn't make that much difference. There's a human there and they should be treated as such, so it's a, it's a really great reminder for us, so thank you. 

[00:28:04] Tania: Yeah. 

[00:28:05] Dan: Tania, thank you so much for joining us on We, We, Not Me Today. We've had a few, uh, sort of, a few wifi difficulties, but what came through has been invaluable and you've really taken us into the mountains, into the wild and really shed new light on how humans can connect in those environments and beyond. So thank you so much for joining us. 

[00:28:24] Tania: Thank you for 

[00:28:25] being so, um, such good company and so patient with me.

[00:28:27] Pia: Oh, great.

[00:28:29] Dan: It's an absolute pleasure, Tania Thank you. 

[00:28:31] Yeah. And sure enough, Tania says, you know, she, she plays different roles for different people, I thought. And particularly when she gets a new group, she sees that, yeah, she needs to be a different leader for different groups and she was very conscious of that. So sure enough that my initial hunch that the, a good, an effective guide actually is very tuned into the sort of team that they give that day or that week, and they adapt themselves, they don't accept the, expect the team, if you like, to adapt to them. So it was, that was, that was really good to hear. And something I think everyone can take away, frankly, when they're, when they're working with the team. 

[00:29:08] Pia: Very opposite to what was headed up at the top of the show with Elon Musk. You know don't give a rats about what you are, what you are needing or feeling. Whereas I think what Tania talked about was that, you know, the situation is, is absorbing that information. Adjusting, adjusting your style. 

[00:29:24] But also being really transparent about the messaging that you are conveying. You know, like when times are tough and the situation changes, you've gotta be really, really clear. And we know that from clarity. There could be a yawning gap between information and understanding. So it's, it's a real key element of leadership that don't assume that people understand and that they will listen to it through their own frame of reference. So you need to be able to shorten that gap. 

[00:29:55] Dan: absolutely. And even further into that, what Tania was saying, I think was that, um, when she's doing things that she says what she's doing. So she projects, she explains what she's doing. And I remember actually years ago when I was um, in my corporate role and working with Rod Metcalf, he was, he was our leadership coach, our first guest on We Not Me, we were doing some sort of an outdoor exercise and he, he said the same thing to me, you know, when you are doing something, tell people what you're doing. Don't just do it, but actually just explain to 'em and explain the context of it, and clearly Tania does a lot of that to say, Well, I'm doing this now because you wait, I'm gonna do this because X, Y, Z. 

[00:30:34] And, um, yeah. I think we often just expect people to know what we are doing even when we're, when we're off doing something that we don't, we don't explain what's, um, what what we're doing, we just do it.

[00:30:46] Pia: And that plays into that final point about respecting the human. You know, there is a human at the end and I think that at the end of the rope, and that metaphorical rope, there's always a human there. And again, I think that goes to what we're talking about at the top of the show. You know, if you don't like humans, it's gonna be very difficult to lead because it's not all about you. It's not about you. It's about what you can create. That is the We Not Me, what you can create as the outcome through your leadership. And if your leadership is strong, then that visionary piece is gonna play a, a, a key part. But respective human beings is a non-negotiable.

[00:31:25] Dan: Yeah, I think that is, goes to the very heart of it. And we heard a lot of that from Tania, which was wonderful. And I wish we could see a little bit more from these folks who seem to be somehow running the world like Elon Musk. But, uh, but yes, let's see.

[00:31:38] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources@spotify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or comment. Just find the link as usual in the show notes. We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me

[00:32:06] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.