WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.196 --> 00:00:03.136 Toby: Hello, welcome to whose WordPress Agency is this. 00:00:03.136 --> 00:00:08.176 Anyway, with the legendary Kurt v Onan, the legend in the 00:00:08.176 --> 00:00:10.546 flesh over digital and crimes. 00:00:11.486 --> 00:00:12.656 thanks for joining us today. 00:00:12.916 --> 00:00:13.546 let's jump in. 00:00:13.546 --> 00:00:16.586 We are talking with, the OG of Podcasting, Matt Madero. 00:00:16.796 --> 00:00:22.286 And, He was asking this question because it was on one of his recent podcasts for 00:00:22.286 --> 00:00:26.996 the WP Minute, and the question is, are the days of hand coding websites over? 00:00:30.146 --> 00:00:31.646 Kurt: Is it fair to say that I wish they were, 00:00:34.596 --> 00:00:37.626 it's not my, it's it's not my forte. 00:00:37.686 --> 00:00:39.186 It's, it's, it's not my forte. 00:00:39.186 --> 00:00:41.521 But, but here's where I'm gonna tell you it's not over. 00:00:42.341 --> 00:00:46.781 I, I do a lot like, so my agency subcontracts for other larger 00:00:46.781 --> 00:00:50.471 agencies, and we also take direct referrals from like Lifter, LMS 00:00:50.471 --> 00:00:52.391 and WP to, and places like that. 00:00:53.081 --> 00:00:57.341 I can't tell you how many times I get on a Zoom call with somebody and I'll 00:00:57.341 --> 00:00:58.691 say, oh, what theme are you using? 00:00:58.691 --> 00:01:00.161 Or, you know, what, what was this already? 00:01:00.191 --> 00:01:02.201 Because they'll ask me to maintain something and they'll be like, 00:01:02.831 --> 00:01:06.821 my website was custom coded by such and such, you know, blah, 00:01:06.821 --> 00:01:08.771 blah, blah, whatever, you know? 00:01:08.821 --> 00:01:09.781 Not from America. 00:01:10.286 --> 00:01:10.706 Mm-hmm. 00:01:11.166 --> 00:01:12.346 And it's a nightmare. 00:01:12.486 --> 00:01:15.151 The stuff that you get get into like, you, you like, oh, they 00:01:15.151 --> 00:01:16.651 hard coded the classic editor. 00:01:16.651 --> 00:01:18.513 This'll be fun, you know? 00:01:18.568 --> 00:01:18.928 oh yeah. 00:01:18.933 --> 00:01:19.123 Yeah. 00:01:19.258 --> 00:01:20.938 So, so it's not dead. 00:01:21.148 --> 00:01:21.928 It's not dead. 00:01:21.928 --> 00:01:22.499 I just wish it was 00:01:22.893 --> 00:01:23.243 Toby: Uhhuh. 00:01:23.968 --> 00:01:24.208 Kurt: I don't know. 00:01:24.208 --> 00:01:24.563 How do you feel? 00:01:26.878 --> 00:01:28.708 Toby: I think it's perilous either way. 00:01:29.638 --> 00:01:32.568 Like I have, every now and then handed like an Elementor site and 00:01:32.568 --> 00:01:34.278 I'm like, what is going on here? 00:01:34.683 --> 00:01:35.883 Like, you know, like, 00:01:36.213 --> 00:01:36.513 Kurt: yeah. 00:01:36.513 --> 00:01:38.493 And then you do the update and the site goes blank. 00:01:38.673 --> 00:01:38.733 Yeah. 00:01:40.343 --> 00:01:44.073 Toby: similarly, we had a very small project come in the other day and 00:01:44.073 --> 00:01:47.883 they needed like a slideshow and one of our developers, like, I'd rather 00:01:47.883 --> 00:01:52.218 just code it with a CF rather than, because I was like, use this plugin. 00:01:52.218 --> 00:01:53.673 He's like, no, I'm no boss. 00:01:53.673 --> 00:01:54.453 I'm gonna do it this way. 00:01:54.453 --> 00:01:55.173 I'm like, okay. 00:01:55.683 --> 00:01:59.613 and his way is better, I think, because what happened was, in hindsight, like. 00:02:00.258 --> 00:02:04.578 So he did it and the client's like, great, can you also do this with it? 00:02:05.358 --> 00:02:08.508 And I was like, well, I'm sure I'm glad we went with the developer's idea. 00:02:08.778 --> 00:02:10.998 'cause yeah, this makes it way easier. 00:02:11.078 --> 00:02:13.268 Kurt: because, 'cause now, because we know how we can make 00:02:13.268 --> 00:02:14.528 it to all kinds of cool things. 00:02:15.098 --> 00:02:20.438 But then that steps into that other conversation, Toby, where everyone sees 00:02:20.438 --> 00:02:24.608 influencers on YouTube and everyone sees AI and everyone assumes that 00:02:24.908 --> 00:02:26.798 everything we do is with an easy button. 00:02:26.798 --> 00:02:27.818 And all you gotta do is. 00:02:28.178 --> 00:02:28.598 Right. 00:02:28.628 --> 00:02:28.958 Right. 00:02:28.958 --> 00:02:32.858 And so they see you make the slider and then they, instead of having, 00:02:33.158 --> 00:02:36.038 you know, squares with arrows in 'em, they want circles with 00:02:36.038 --> 00:02:37.148 umbrellas in 'em or something. 00:02:37.148 --> 00:02:37.328 Right? 00:02:37.328 --> 00:02:39.458 They're like, well, we'd rather have circles with umbrellas in 'em. 00:02:39.458 --> 00:02:41.978 And then you, and you go, okay, we can do that for you. 00:02:42.308 --> 00:02:42.728 Right? 00:02:42.998 --> 00:02:44.828 And then it'll be this much more. 00:02:44.828 --> 00:02:47.078 And they're thinking, well, why would I have to pay more? 00:02:47.078 --> 00:02:48.338 You already built the slider. 00:02:48.338 --> 00:02:49.238 It should be an option. 00:02:49.238 --> 00:02:52.178 It should be, I should just tell AI that I want circles with umbrellas. 00:02:53.048 --> 00:02:53.888 Toby: Yeah, exactly. 00:02:53.888 --> 00:02:55.628 And this kind of leads to another question. 00:02:55.728 --> 00:02:59.748 That maybe will touch your, your fancy, fancy bone. 00:02:59.748 --> 00:03:00.138 I don't know. 00:03:00.358 --> 00:03:03.898 hypothetically, let's say someone coded something in chat, GPT. 00:03:03.958 --> 00:03:05.158 They're a client of yours. 00:03:05.378 --> 00:03:08.198 let's say they're a client of mine, hypothetically coded, hypothetically 00:03:08.618 --> 00:03:12.808 coded a plugin in chat GPT, and they said, Hey, Toby, I think it'll work. 00:03:13.138 --> 00:03:15.508 You make it work and do, it should be easy. 00:03:15.898 --> 00:03:16.078 Kurt: Yeah. 00:03:16.078 --> 00:03:19.138 How do you respond to, all you gotta do is, all you gotta do is load up the, I 00:03:19.138 --> 00:03:25.018 asked Chad, GPT and chat, GPT said all, all you had to do was load up these files. 00:03:25.478 --> 00:03:26.648 and, and it should work. 00:03:26.828 --> 00:03:27.038 Right. 00:03:27.088 --> 00:03:30.298 now I'm not really sure how to do that myself, but, I'm sure 00:03:30.298 --> 00:03:31.258 for you it's gonna be easy. 00:03:32.968 --> 00:03:33.148 Yeah. 00:03:33.148 --> 00:03:34.708 How do, how do you respond to that? 00:03:35.908 --> 00:03:36.628 I, well. 00:03:37.123 --> 00:03:40.543 My response is, believe it or not, I'm actually, I'm, I consider myself to 00:03:40.543 --> 00:03:42.553 be a pretty diplomatic person, Toby. 00:03:42.913 --> 00:03:46.993 So normally what I'll say is, you know, I see this a lot. 00:03:46.993 --> 00:03:50.683 A lot of people are referring to AI to be this magic, you know, easy button. 00:03:51.023 --> 00:03:56.583 if you really want to use this product, that you've developed, we can try it. 00:03:56.583 --> 00:03:58.803 But to do that, I'm gonna want to create. 00:03:59.088 --> 00:04:02.268 A staging site, I'm gonna wanna try it in the staging site. 00:04:02.638 --> 00:04:06.028 and then we're gonna have to basically run it, troubleshoot it, make sure 00:04:06.028 --> 00:04:08.968 there's no issues or glitches with it, make sure there's no conflicts with 00:04:08.968 --> 00:04:12.598 preexisting plugins that are on the website and all those other things. 00:04:12.688 --> 00:04:17.848 And once we validate that, then we could load it up to the live website. 00:04:18.148 --> 00:04:21.148 So you're probably looking at about seven or eight hours. 00:04:21.523 --> 00:04:22.003 Toby: And 00:04:22.003 --> 00:04:26.503 Kurt: at $150 an hour for agency time, that's gonna run you, you know, 00:04:26.713 --> 00:04:28.063 what is that a thousand dollars? 00:04:28.068 --> 00:04:28.198 You know? 00:04:28.198 --> 00:04:28.438 Mm-hmm. 00:04:28.518 --> 00:04:29.863 Are, are you a player at that? 00:04:30.193 --> 00:04:34.303 Are you a player at the, it should be easy rate, right? 00:04:34.483 --> 00:04:37.873 'cause if, if the it should be easy rate doesn't work for you, you can 00:04:37.873 --> 00:04:42.133 always try it yourself or hire someone on five, Fiverr to give it a shot. 00:04:42.433 --> 00:04:42.613 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:04:43.903 --> 00:04:47.393 I think this is like, like one of those places where especially like 00:04:47.393 --> 00:04:49.793 if you don't have an established company yet and you're like. 00:04:50.408 --> 00:04:52.148 I could see you getting pulled into that. 00:04:52.148 --> 00:04:57.668 I know, like when I was getting started, like the, I get got pulled into the, this 00:04:57.668 --> 00:05:02.828 is easy, this should be easy projects you gotta do for low amounts of money. 00:05:03.338 --> 00:05:04.083 Oh well you gotta do. 00:05:04.133 --> 00:05:08.483 'cause because you know, there are people, and this is part of like the trickiness 00:05:08.483 --> 00:05:13.013 of starting a business, really like, it's like you get, when you're starting, 00:05:13.013 --> 00:05:16.373 you just are saying yes to everything and you're gonna get people who don't 00:05:16.373 --> 00:05:18.293 wanna spend any money on anything. 00:05:18.413 --> 00:05:18.473 Yeah. 00:05:19.013 --> 00:05:23.193 And, so you, you're, you're in a position where, you know, like 00:05:23.193 --> 00:05:27.513 they're gonna go to Fiverr and pay someone what they think is five bucks. 00:05:27.513 --> 00:05:30.063 That's gonna end up being 500, but, and none of this money they 00:05:30.063 --> 00:05:31.383 get, maybe you lose the client, 00:05:31.383 --> 00:05:35.943 Kurt: you know, the, the part that is, So I've been public with this before. 00:05:35.943 --> 00:05:37.893 Like I used to work at Suzuki. 00:05:37.893 --> 00:05:41.613 I was in charge of all the publications and training at Suzuki, and that's 00:05:41.613 --> 00:05:46.003 motorcycles, automotive, Marine, like it's three huge divisions. 00:05:46.003 --> 00:05:50.983 It's a, it was a big company when I got the job and the vice president in 00:05:50.983 --> 00:05:55.783 charge of my division, my department, It says, he would come up to me all 00:05:55.783 --> 00:05:58.753 the time and he would say, well, we need to create this new module. 00:05:58.753 --> 00:06:00.403 We need to create this new e-learning thing. 00:06:00.403 --> 00:06:01.903 We need to create this new whatever. 00:06:01.963 --> 00:06:02.833 And I'd be like, okay. 00:06:02.863 --> 00:06:03.403 Okay, boss. 00:06:03.403 --> 00:06:03.643 Okay. 00:06:03.643 --> 00:06:05.053 And I'd be taking notes and stuff. 00:06:05.113 --> 00:06:08.533 And then he would say, so all, all you need to do is, and as soon as 00:06:08.533 --> 00:06:11.053 he, that phrase came out of his mouth, I was like, we're doomed. 00:06:11.503 --> 00:06:12.193 We're doomed. 00:06:12.193 --> 00:06:14.323 This is gonna be a 300 hour project. 00:06:14.323 --> 00:06:14.503 Right. 00:06:14.593 --> 00:06:16.543 And I would just literally start like. 00:06:16.573 --> 00:06:19.303 Trying to figure out what the Gantt chart was gonna look like 00:06:19.303 --> 00:06:22.513 for this project that I knew was gonna morph into something giant. 00:06:22.843 --> 00:06:22.993 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:06:23.233 --> 00:06:23.353 And 00:06:23.353 --> 00:06:26.473 Kurt: that's when people come to me with these easy solutions for, 00:06:26.833 --> 00:06:28.633 you know, these AI easy solutions. 00:06:29.113 --> 00:06:34.153 That's where I, I start to go, okay, let's Gantt chart the sucker out and 00:06:34.153 --> 00:06:35.743 see what this is really gonna cost. 00:06:36.163 --> 00:06:40.723 Because even the easy, all you should have to do is still takes time. 00:06:40.723 --> 00:06:43.033 And when you multiply that time against your rate, you go, 00:06:43.063 --> 00:06:44.113 well, this is how much it is. 00:06:44.413 --> 00:06:45.823 Because the numbers are the numbers. 00:06:46.093 --> 00:06:46.363 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:06:46.603 --> 00:06:50.473 There's another interesting thing about this AI doing your initial 00:06:50.743 --> 00:06:53.563 building, like, not even prototyping, but like, hey, we're gonna build an app 00:06:53.563 --> 00:06:56.633 with ai, and it's like our prototype and then it's gonna be our app. 00:06:56.713 --> 00:06:59.173 that like, you have no idea what, how it was built. 00:06:59.893 --> 00:07:04.283 And you know, when you go to add a feature later, there's no, you don't 00:07:04.283 --> 00:07:07.493 know that chat GPT is, or whoever, whatever you're using, that it's 00:07:07.493 --> 00:07:09.713 gonna know how to add a feature even. 00:07:09.763 --> 00:07:10.063 no. 00:07:10.738 --> 00:07:13.978 Kurt: the, the, and here's me not knowing what I'm talking about. 00:07:14.488 --> 00:07:14.818 Right. 00:07:14.818 --> 00:07:17.308 Which I know is, is one of, I'm just, so I'm just gonna break 00:07:17.308 --> 00:07:18.688 one of Matt's rules right now. 00:07:19.078 --> 00:07:21.328 I'll say something about something I have no knowledge of. 00:07:21.758 --> 00:07:26.078 somebody was just putting up on social last week about some tool that 00:07:26.078 --> 00:07:30.518 verifies whether content is AI written or not, because you can look at the 00:07:30.518 --> 00:07:34.478 code, like you copy the text and then you look at the code for the text. 00:07:34.688 --> 00:07:37.688 And within the code for the text is like this repetitive, 00:07:38.198 --> 00:07:43.778 alphanumeric sequence that chat GPT puts in so that it flags it as ai. 00:07:43.778 --> 00:07:44.018 Right. 00:07:44.018 --> 00:07:47.258 And so I always wondered how does Google know that that was ai? 00:07:47.258 --> 00:07:47.558 Right? 00:07:47.558 --> 00:07:52.148 Well, they know because there's some code in the text that's saying, Hey, this. 00:07:52.493 --> 00:07:56.843 This seven digit or six digit code pops up in every third paragraph. 00:07:56.903 --> 00:08:01.853 So we know this was AI derived and so you have to ask yourself if that were true, 00:08:01.853 --> 00:08:03.083 because again, I'm not the authority. 00:08:03.083 --> 00:08:05.573 I don't know if that's really true or not, but let's just assume that it is. 00:08:05.573 --> 00:08:07.013 'cause it sure does make a lot of sense. 00:08:07.403 --> 00:08:14.213 So if that was true, what would chat GPT be embedding into your plugins 00:08:14.213 --> 00:08:17.543 or into the things that are going into your website and then you 00:08:17.573 --> 00:08:19.673 don't really know what's in there? 00:08:19.688 --> 00:08:20.318 Mm-hmm. 00:08:20.618 --> 00:08:22.268 You don't know what ties they're gonna make. 00:08:22.268 --> 00:08:25.658 You don't know if there's a feedback loop of data coming out of your 00:08:25.658 --> 00:08:27.908 website for something like chat. 00:08:27.908 --> 00:08:32.768 GT's whole mission is to add more learning sources to its feed. 00:08:33.038 --> 00:08:33.458 Right? 00:08:34.148 --> 00:08:36.818 And so it's like, how much trust do you wanna put in this thing? 00:08:39.996 --> 00:08:43.026 I was at an event yesterday with young people and young people don't 00:08:43.026 --> 00:08:47.016 have, I shouldn't say it like the way it's coming outta my face. 00:08:47.016 --> 00:08:48.816 I should change the way I'm phrasing this. 00:08:49.186 --> 00:08:52.786 young people don't seem to have any reference points for the 00:08:52.786 --> 00:08:54.946 things that make us giddy, right? 00:08:55.786 --> 00:08:57.976 But they also don't seem to have any knowledge about 00:08:57.976 --> 00:08:59.086 what it is that we're doing. 00:09:00.331 --> 00:09:02.431 And so that was a huge wake up call for me. 00:09:02.431 --> 00:09:05.251 I was, I was hanging with a bunch of young people yesterday at a 00:09:05.251 --> 00:09:08.761 high school, and I was in charge of doing three separate presentations. 00:09:08.761 --> 00:09:10.081 Each was 20 minutes long. 00:09:10.141 --> 00:09:15.541 And I was supposed to like convey what having an agency was like, which 00:09:15.541 --> 00:09:17.191 aligns very well with this podcast. 00:09:18.616 --> 00:09:21.121 And, and I didn't realize it at first. 00:09:21.121 --> 00:09:24.091 And I don't know if I, I don't know if I wrote this to you or not in 00:09:24.091 --> 00:09:27.871 the note, I didn't know how the students got assigned to the groups. 00:09:28.261 --> 00:09:30.991 I, I just thought they randomly got selected. 00:09:31.021 --> 00:09:34.921 'cause there was like 50 businesses locally that volunteered for this 00:09:34.921 --> 00:09:36.571 day of sharing with these kids. 00:09:36.871 --> 00:09:40.441 And so I ended up with three classrooms, 15 to 20 kids in each class. 00:09:40.651 --> 00:09:43.321 So let's, you know, round the number up and say there's 60 people 00:09:43.321 --> 00:09:44.791 I have access to for the day. 00:09:44.881 --> 00:09:45.271 Right. 00:09:46.171 --> 00:09:49.971 And so, they came in their 20 minute session was like, boom. 00:09:49.971 --> 00:09:51.231 Like, like I'm Kurt. 00:09:52.026 --> 00:09:53.016 This is what I've done. 00:09:53.046 --> 00:09:56.226 You know, I've raced motorcycles, I've worked for Suzuki, I've worked for Ducati. 00:09:56.226 --> 00:09:57.546 That gets their eyes going, right? 00:09:57.546 --> 00:10:00.216 Like, oh, okay, what, what, what does this guy do? 00:10:00.216 --> 00:10:00.336 Mm-hmm. 00:10:00.576 --> 00:10:01.836 And I run my own agency. 00:10:02.046 --> 00:10:05.406 And for like less than a thousand dollars, you could start an agency like, you know, 00:10:05.466 --> 00:10:07.746 'cause WordPress runs 43% of the internet. 00:10:07.746 --> 00:10:09.636 It's open source and blah, blah, blah. 00:10:09.636 --> 00:10:11.556 So I have this presentation, right? 00:10:12.306 --> 00:10:16.806 The first class I was like, show of hands, how many kids in here have 00:10:16.956 --> 00:10:18.546 heard the word WordPress before? 00:10:19.206 --> 00:10:20.676 And in the first class. 00:10:21.486 --> 00:10:22.416 Nobody's hands went up. 00:10:23.766 --> 00:10:29.016 And I was like, wow, WordPress runs 43% of the internet and nobody in this 00:10:29.016 --> 00:10:30.786 room has ever heard the word before. 00:10:31.186 --> 00:10:32.536 and I, and I thought, well, this is weird. 00:10:32.536 --> 00:10:34.306 Maybe the class just isn't participating. 00:10:34.306 --> 00:10:36.466 I asked some other questions and they all participated. 00:10:36.466 --> 00:10:38.596 So it was like, it's not that they're afraid to participate. 00:10:38.896 --> 00:10:42.076 They really don't know that not a single one of 'em ever heard the 00:10:42.076 --> 00:10:45.346 term open source before, and they didn't know what open source meant. 00:10:46.366 --> 00:10:49.156 So I ended up having to explain that and then of course, as you 00:10:49.156 --> 00:10:50.626 can imagine, 20 minutes was up. 00:10:50.626 --> 00:10:51.286 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:10:51.526 --> 00:10:51.736 Right, 00:10:51.826 --> 00:10:52.306 Kurt: right, right. 00:10:52.306 --> 00:10:52.366 Yeah. 00:10:53.001 --> 00:10:55.546 So I didn't get a lot of chance for a lot of feedback and stuff, uhhuh. 00:10:55.546 --> 00:10:59.056 Now, what was cool about this though, is after that session, a couple of 00:10:59.056 --> 00:11:02.056 kids came up and said, Hey, how can I get in touch with you after this? 00:11:02.086 --> 00:11:03.496 Like, I'm interested in what you're talking about. 00:11:03.496 --> 00:11:04.576 I said, okay, well that's, that's cool. 00:11:04.576 --> 00:11:04.996 That's great. 00:11:04.996 --> 00:11:05.476 That worked. 00:11:06.346 --> 00:11:08.866 In the second session, I switched things up a little bit. 00:11:08.896 --> 00:11:13.066 It and turned out two kids heard of WordPress before. 00:11:13.366 --> 00:11:17.806 No one ever heard of open source, and I left more room for questions at the end, 00:11:17.806 --> 00:11:20.806 and there were some good questions, but it was like, it was pretty interesting. 00:11:21.346 --> 00:11:24.316 In the third session, I changed my delivery completely. 00:11:24.316 --> 00:11:31.666 I inverted the order of my presentation, and so I started with, Hey, if I could 00:11:31.666 --> 00:11:34.966 show you a business that you could start up for less than a thousand dollars. 00:11:36.931 --> 00:11:39.751 And show you how to make six grand with it before summer. 00:11:40.651 --> 00:11:41.641 Would that be interesting? 00:11:41.641 --> 00:11:42.241 And they were like, yeah. 00:11:42.241 --> 00:11:42.901 I said, great. 00:11:42.901 --> 00:11:43.381 Stay tuned. 00:11:43.411 --> 00:11:45.481 'cause we're gonna go through the rest of this and I'll get you that answer. 00:11:46.021 --> 00:11:47.491 And then they paid attention. 00:11:47.941 --> 00:11:50.911 But then one person in the room heard about WordPress and still 00:11:50.911 --> 00:11:52.381 nobody knew what open source was. 00:11:53.551 --> 00:11:57.841 And this, this was alarming to me because I, I assume students 00:11:57.841 --> 00:11:58.981 would know more about the stuff. 00:11:59.641 --> 00:12:01.681 But Toby, here's what I don't think I shared with you. 00:12:02.536 --> 00:12:05.746 I asked my son who goes to the school, I said, Hey, how'd your talks go? 00:12:05.746 --> 00:12:06.466 He said, oh, they went great. 00:12:06.466 --> 00:12:08.686 I said, how did you know what classes to go to? 00:12:08.686 --> 00:12:09.766 How did you know what groups to be? 00:12:09.766 --> 00:12:10.756 And he goes, oh, we picked them. 00:12:11.686 --> 00:12:12.856 And I said, what? 00:12:12.856 --> 00:12:13.396 Hold on. 00:12:13.426 --> 00:12:15.136 You picked who you wanted to listen to. 00:12:15.136 --> 00:12:18.106 And he said, yeah, we, they gave us a list of everybody that was coming and we got 00:12:18.106 --> 00:12:19.666 to pick the classes we wanted to go to. 00:12:19.666 --> 00:12:24.166 And so I'm very optimistic because my classes were full. 00:12:25.156 --> 00:12:25.396 Right. 00:12:25.426 --> 00:12:26.296 My classes were full. 00:12:26.656 --> 00:12:26.956 Yep. 00:12:26.956 --> 00:12:28.576 And the kids picked the subject. 00:12:29.866 --> 00:12:33.226 But the kids have no idea what WordPress is or what open source 00:12:33.226 --> 00:12:34.816 is or how to even get started. 00:12:35.206 --> 00:12:35.566 Right? 00:12:35.566 --> 00:12:39.376 And so you and I are now running this podcast of whose WordPress agency 00:12:39.376 --> 00:12:44.506 is it anyway, and I'm talking to an entire audience of young people that 00:12:44.506 --> 00:12:49.406 have no idea what we do, which means, in terms of the Stephen Covey process 00:12:49.406 --> 00:12:51.056 of always Train Your Replacement. 00:12:51.446 --> 00:12:54.266 We haven't trained our replacements because they don't even know what we do. 00:12:54.956 --> 00:12:59.566 Toby: Would, we might not know the answer to this, but if you said build a 00:12:59.566 --> 00:13:01.756 website, would they know where to start? 00:13:02.326 --> 00:13:05.776 Do they know any of the like, Squarespace, you know, would they, 00:13:06.376 --> 00:13:10.126 Kurt: so they know the commercials for Wix and Squarespace, but they don't 00:13:10.126 --> 00:13:11.686 really have any experience with it. 00:13:12.076 --> 00:13:16.366 I started asking questions like, what does the school teach? 00:13:17.146 --> 00:13:20.266 Because one of the kids that knew what WordPress was said 00:13:20.266 --> 00:13:23.926 that Hutchinson Community College actually taught WordPress. 00:13:24.196 --> 00:13:26.506 And I was like, so what did they teach about WordPress? 00:13:26.536 --> 00:13:29.956 And they basically teach like, this is WordPress. 00:13:29.956 --> 00:13:31.156 You can go to wordpress.com, 00:13:31.156 --> 00:13:32.356 you can go to wordpress.org, 00:13:32.386 --> 00:13:35.417 you can install WordPress and you can use it to build websites, sites 00:13:37.701 --> 00:13:38.311 like mm-hmm. 00:13:38.396 --> 00:13:39.646 End of 40, right? 00:13:40.126 --> 00:13:40.306 Yeah. 00:13:40.306 --> 00:13:43.996 And so I'm like, wow, you know, and this isn't a week when. 00:13:44.956 --> 00:13:48.406 At the risk of changing the channel again, did you see the post from Matt 00:13:48.436 --> 00:13:53.726 Mullenweg on X, where he was asking for, does anyone know a good marketing solution 00:13:53.726 --> 00:13:55.826 for WordPress to get better known? 00:13:56.606 --> 00:13:57.206 Oh, wow. 00:13:57.416 --> 00:13:59.636 You know, and I was, and so he's getting a lot of. 00:13:59.891 --> 00:14:02.831 He's getting a lot of the normal Matt Mullenweg feedback on X about that. 00:14:02.891 --> 00:14:03.011 Yeah. 00:14:03.041 --> 00:14:03.431 Right. 00:14:03.791 --> 00:14:06.401 But the, that's a really great question for him to be 00:14:06.401 --> 00:14:07.721 asking as the head word press. 00:14:07.721 --> 00:14:07.781 Yeah. 00:14:07.901 --> 00:14:12.341 Here we are exposing ourselves from an agency perspective who, 00:14:12.491 --> 00:14:14.201 who propagates more websites. 00:14:14.201 --> 00:14:14.411 Right? 00:14:14.411 --> 00:14:15.311 Agencies, right? 00:14:15.311 --> 00:14:15.401 Mm-hmm. 00:14:15.401 --> 00:14:18.251 So it's a one to many call rather than a one to one call. 00:14:18.701 --> 00:14:21.581 And then we have all these young people that don't even know what the product is. 00:14:22.001 --> 00:14:22.421 Toby: Right. 00:14:23.801 --> 00:14:28.361 It makes me wonder, like, I don't like. 00:14:29.501 --> 00:14:32.941 How, if you, if they asked, like what percentage of our high school graduating 00:14:32.941 --> 00:14:37.981 classes went into web development, I don't, it's probably a very low percent. 00:14:37.981 --> 00:14:38.311 Right? 00:14:38.311 --> 00:14:38.491 Like 00:14:38.581 --> 00:14:39.631 Kurt: a lot of 'em. 00:14:39.781 --> 00:14:42.781 So yeah, I asked some of these questions like, so what are they teaching here? 00:14:42.781 --> 00:14:43.681 Well, they're teaching coding. 00:14:44.046 --> 00:14:44.466 Mm-hmm. 00:14:44.551 --> 00:14:44.881 Coding. 00:14:44.881 --> 00:14:45.151 Okay. 00:14:45.151 --> 00:14:45.991 What's coding like? 00:14:45.991 --> 00:14:47.971 What kind of coding are you guys talking about? 00:14:47.976 --> 00:14:48.306 Mm-hmm. 00:14:48.421 --> 00:14:49.651 You know, is it PHP? 00:14:49.651 --> 00:14:50.731 Are you in c plus plus? 00:14:50.731 --> 00:14:51.061 Like what? 00:14:51.091 --> 00:14:52.921 Like what, what are you guys doing here? 00:14:53.361 --> 00:14:57.081 and then a lot of it comes down to these are basic languages to stair 00:14:57.081 --> 00:14:58.641 step into something else later. 00:14:59.421 --> 00:15:03.441 And most of the kids are interested in gaming, so that ends up talking 00:15:03.441 --> 00:15:09.011 about like how to, no code and low code, these different gaming platforms. 00:15:09.461 --> 00:15:13.681 You know, as if they're all gonna make a living someday with, eSports or something. 00:15:14.041 --> 00:15:14.251 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:15:17.191 --> 00:15:19.681 Kurt: But there, that leaves our whole segment of what, like you 00:15:19.681 --> 00:15:22.681 and I do, like up in the air. 00:15:23.221 --> 00:15:23.551 Toby: Yeah. 00:15:23.551 --> 00:15:29.081 It, and it's the, the lack of any mention or any knowledge of, open source, it 00:15:29.081 --> 00:15:31.271 seems like a fail of a civics education. 00:15:31.331 --> 00:15:31.601 Like 00:15:33.641 --> 00:15:37.361 Kurt: I didn't hear the term open source until I was like 28 years old. 00:15:37.391 --> 00:15:37.721 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:15:38.741 --> 00:15:41.651 Kurt: And so I don't know how old we should, we should have done 00:15:41.651 --> 00:15:42.881 some research before the show. 00:15:43.161 --> 00:15:45.381 I don't know how old the term is, right? 00:15:45.411 --> 00:15:45.501 Mm-hmm. 00:15:45.741 --> 00:15:47.871 But I didn't hear it until I was about 28 years old. 00:15:47.871 --> 00:15:51.291 And when I first heard it, I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. 00:15:51.291 --> 00:15:52.551 What do you mean this stuff is free? 00:15:52.881 --> 00:15:53.151 You know? 00:15:53.151 --> 00:15:54.696 And I was like, trying to like figure out like, mm-hmm. 00:15:54.831 --> 00:15:56.931 So what's, so what's the business model there? 00:15:56.931 --> 00:15:57.351 Right? 00:15:57.351 --> 00:15:57.352 Right. 00:15:57.441 --> 00:15:58.221 How does that work? 00:15:58.476 --> 00:16:02.901 And, and, and I was, and it was a confusing subject for me at that age. 00:16:03.211 --> 00:16:04.951 now I understand things much, much better. 00:16:05.311 --> 00:16:10.051 But still the idea that the schools aren't covering it all, like they're 00:16:10.051 --> 00:16:13.591 not even touching the subject and they're leaving these kids with this 00:16:13.621 --> 00:16:17.971 like, so the other thing was, have you ever seen the movie Rain Man? 00:16:18.451 --> 00:16:18.751 Yeah, sure. 00:16:18.751 --> 00:16:18.841 Mm-hmm. 00:16:19.741 --> 00:16:20.821 How much is a Snickers bar? 00:16:20.821 --> 00:16:20.881 I. 00:16:22.381 --> 00:16:23.101 I don't remember that part. 00:16:23.101 --> 00:16:24.151 Thousand dollars wasn't it? 00:16:24.326 --> 00:16:25.086 Or 50,000? 00:16:25.786 --> 00:16:26.101 It was. 00:16:26.641 --> 00:16:27.861 Raymond was like, Snickers bar. 00:16:27.861 --> 00:16:28.731 $50,000. 00:16:28.731 --> 00:16:28.761 Okay. 00:16:29.061 --> 00:16:32.171 And, this kid in the room said he wanted to start, he wanted to, he 00:16:32.171 --> 00:16:34.121 wants to own, an automotive dealership. 00:16:34.151 --> 00:16:35.231 He wants to own a car dealership. 00:16:35.981 --> 00:16:36.521 Okay, great. 00:16:36.521 --> 00:16:37.061 Like a new one. 00:16:37.061 --> 00:16:37.751 And he goes, yeah. 00:16:37.871 --> 00:16:38.231 You know. 00:16:38.531 --> 00:16:39.041 Okay. 00:16:39.351 --> 00:16:40.251 how much money does that take? 00:16:40.251 --> 00:16:40.611 I ask him. 00:16:40.611 --> 00:16:40.971 He goes. 00:16:41.436 --> 00:16:42.846 Oh, about a hundred thousand dollars. 00:16:44.431 --> 00:16:47.106 And I'm like, for one of the cars, you know, one of those new 00:16:47.106 --> 00:16:49.266 trucks that you're gonna put on the lot is a hundred grand Uhhuh. 00:16:49.596 --> 00:16:51.731 You know, I'm like, eh, it's more like $10 million. 00:16:51.731 --> 00:16:52.091 Mm-hmm. 00:16:52.171 --> 00:16:54.006 You know, you have to be liquid, you have to be 10 million. 00:16:54.006 --> 00:16:59.106 You have to display on paper that you could get $10 million so that 00:16:59.106 --> 00:17:03.426 you can leverage yourself to build a project of that size and magnitude. 00:17:03.546 --> 00:17:05.806 And he was like, oh, I had no idea. 00:17:05.806 --> 00:17:08.926 You know, and I'm thinking shame on the school system for 00:17:08.926 --> 00:17:10.456 letting them get that far and. 00:17:10.936 --> 00:17:15.256 The dream process without even understanding what, what's at play, right? 00:17:15.256 --> 00:17:16.516 Like just in basics. 00:17:17.116 --> 00:17:20.716 I asked a lot of kids what, you know, Hey, if you could make $60,000 a year, 00:17:20.716 --> 00:17:22.096 do you think that would be good money? 00:17:22.276 --> 00:17:24.136 And half the room was like, yeah, it'd be all right. 00:17:24.376 --> 00:17:27.556 And I'm like, do you know what the average person makes the United States? 00:17:27.586 --> 00:17:32.296 Do you know that you live in Hutchinson, Kansas, which is next to Wichita, Kansas? 00:17:32.476 --> 00:17:34.096 What's the average earnings in Wichita? 00:17:34.096 --> 00:17:39.616 What's the cost of living here compared to California or Portland or New York City? 00:17:39.676 --> 00:17:41.506 And they were like, oh, I really don't know. 00:17:41.506 --> 00:17:43.666 And I was like, you guys need to know this stuff. 00:17:43.791 --> 00:17:45.351 'cause it's how you make your decisions. 00:17:45.891 --> 00:17:51.321 Like for me, when I think about agency life as a WordPress professional, going 00:17:51.321 --> 00:17:57.321 from the California economy to the Kansas economy changed our game completely. 00:17:57.741 --> 00:17:59.691 'cause we lowered our overhead by 60%. 00:18:00.111 --> 00:18:00.381 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:18:04.701 --> 00:18:08.631 One thing that's promising about the, the three classrooms full of 00:18:08.631 --> 00:18:11.421 kids, it's the three classrooms full of kids who presumably. 00:18:11.986 --> 00:18:16.066 We're interested in web development of some sort, is that they chose it, right? 00:18:16.066 --> 00:18:16.156 Mm-hmm. 00:18:16.396 --> 00:18:20.326 Kurt: And so I'm not, I really need to do more research 'cause I wanna 00:18:20.326 --> 00:18:23.506 find out how did the school really present those talks to those kids? 00:18:23.986 --> 00:18:24.106 Mm-hmm. 00:18:24.346 --> 00:18:28.126 What was the buzzword that made 60 kids wanna sit in a room that I was hosting? 00:18:28.456 --> 00:18:28.576 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:18:28.966 --> 00:18:32.266 Kurt: You know, what was the, 'cause they don't know who I am, you know? 00:18:32.266 --> 00:18:32.566 Unless. 00:18:33.076 --> 00:18:35.836 They're really progressive and did like, looked me up on the internet. 00:18:35.836 --> 00:18:38.356 Kurt went on and on their phone and went, oh, this guy's got 00:18:38.416 --> 00:18:40.336 80 pages of Google reference. 00:18:40.336 --> 00:18:41.116 He must be famous. 00:18:41.656 --> 00:18:45.106 you know, it, it's, I'm not sure how they picked the rooms. 00:18:45.226 --> 00:18:45.316 Mm-hmm. 00:18:45.556 --> 00:18:46.906 So I'd kind of like to know that. 00:18:46.906 --> 00:18:52.741 But to your point, 60 kids signed up to hear about what we do for a living. 00:18:52.961 --> 00:18:53.381 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:18:53.956 --> 00:18:54.796 Kurt: That's exciting. 00:18:55.306 --> 00:18:55.666 Toby: Yeah, 00:18:55.816 --> 00:18:56.956 Kurt: that's really exciting. 00:18:57.166 --> 00:19:00.226 The idea that they have no base knowledge in what we do is disappointing, 00:19:00.226 --> 00:19:01.396 especially for people that. 00:19:01.396 --> 00:19:01.456 Hm. 00:19:02.086 --> 00:19:03.676 Take it classes at the high school. 00:19:04.266 --> 00:19:07.566 but I don't even know if I fought the high school for that because who 00:19:07.566 --> 00:19:11.046 approached the high school and said, what does your curriculum look like? 00:19:11.046 --> 00:19:12.666 How come WordPress isn't included? 00:19:12.666 --> 00:19:15.006 How do we get WordPress included in your curriculum? 00:19:15.276 --> 00:19:17.976 And how do we show people how to leverage WordPress to make 00:19:17.976 --> 00:19:20.046 money as an agency owner? 00:19:20.526 --> 00:19:23.256 Because schools are really in the business of getting people ready 00:19:23.256 --> 00:19:25.116 to go to more school, not mm-hmm. 00:19:25.356 --> 00:19:27.456 Jump out of, jump out of the school cycle and start your 00:19:27.456 --> 00:19:28.476 own business and make money. 00:19:28.776 --> 00:19:29.046 Toby: Right. 00:19:33.741 --> 00:19:36.051 Kurt: See, I've opened up a whole can of worms here, Toby. 00:19:39.381 --> 00:19:39.861 Toby: Yeah. 00:19:39.861 --> 00:19:43.371 And, one thing that struck me as interesting, so you were in 00:19:43.371 --> 00:19:46.731 California, had an agency in California come to Hutchinson. 00:19:47.181 --> 00:19:49.851 couldn't you have kept your California rate or did you keep your 00:19:49.851 --> 00:19:51.471 California rates when you did that? 00:19:52.176 --> 00:19:53.916 Kurt: Yeah, of course I did. 00:19:53.916 --> 00:19:56.076 'cause our customers are from all over the globe. 00:19:56.526 --> 00:19:56.646 Mm-hmm. 00:19:56.976 --> 00:19:59.106 That's what I was trying to talk to the kids about. 00:19:59.136 --> 00:20:02.406 I was like, 'cause I said, how many of you can't wait to get out of this 00:20:02.406 --> 00:20:03.966 small town when you get outta school? 00:20:03.966 --> 00:20:04.236 You know? 00:20:04.236 --> 00:20:05.586 And they're all like, I'm getting outta here. 00:20:05.586 --> 00:20:05.946 You know? 00:20:06.216 --> 00:20:08.376 It was like one of those old Tom Cruise movies about 00:20:08.376 --> 00:20:09.636 playing football in Pittsburgh. 00:20:09.666 --> 00:20:09.966 Right. 00:20:09.966 --> 00:20:11.046 I gotta get out of this town. 00:20:11.556 --> 00:20:13.566 And I'm like, so why do you think you need to leave this town? 00:20:13.566 --> 00:20:17.646 We have the fastest internet in the country and the lowest cost of living. 00:20:17.916 --> 00:20:18.126 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:20:18.366 --> 00:20:18.486 Right. 00:20:18.486 --> 00:20:18.581 This is the 00:20:18.581 --> 00:20:19.261 Kurt: perfect place to. 00:20:19.821 --> 00:20:21.831 Put down the roots and grow an agency. 00:20:21.856 --> 00:20:22.146 Yeah. 00:20:22.146 --> 00:20:22.946 Grow digital 00:20:23.006 --> 00:20:23.426 Toby: agency. 00:20:23.481 --> 00:20:26.271 Kurt: you know, newsflash, I'm working with the city and with 00:20:26.271 --> 00:20:29.301 an organization here in town to start an apprenticeship program 00:20:29.301 --> 00:20:31.221 for kids that want to do an agency. 00:20:31.221 --> 00:20:31.431 Right. 00:20:31.431 --> 00:20:35.361 Like, like, but figure out like, how does the college have a, have a stake in that? 00:20:35.361 --> 00:20:36.891 How does the city have a stake in that? 00:20:36.891 --> 00:20:40.701 And the, the goal is if we could convince more young people to stay here. 00:20:41.186 --> 00:20:42.986 Put down roots and grow a business. 00:20:43.196 --> 00:20:46.406 It adds to the tax base and, and all those positive things that, 00:20:46.406 --> 00:20:50.796 you know, a community, you know, any kind of civic thing needs. 00:20:51.096 --> 00:20:51.276 Right. 00:20:51.376 --> 00:20:53.446 so there's a lot going on in the background there. 00:20:53.596 --> 00:20:57.226 So I loved doing the talk and I loved getting access to those 00:20:57.226 --> 00:21:00.886 kids, but it was really interesting to see like, where are they at? 00:21:01.006 --> 00:21:01.096 Mm-hmm. 00:21:01.336 --> 00:21:05.266 Like their interest level is here, their base knowledge is here. 00:21:06.191 --> 00:21:09.491 And their motivation is really somewhere in between. 00:21:09.611 --> 00:21:13.361 Like what, what's the real motivation gauge for them to take what they learn 00:21:13.361 --> 00:21:17.981 and actually take an, take action with it and become, you know, become the owner. 00:21:18.101 --> 00:21:18.431 Right? 00:21:18.491 --> 00:21:21.521 Because a lot of these kids are raised with employee attitudes, 00:21:21.521 --> 00:21:22.841 not with owner attitudes. 00:21:23.711 --> 00:21:24.101 Toby: Yeah. 00:21:24.281 --> 00:21:30.121 I, I, I think, I have this hypothesis, It's probably borne out in some data, or 00:21:30.121 --> 00:21:33.821 at least can be provable with existing data somewhere that, or disprove. 00:21:33.821 --> 00:21:38.231 But like the idea is like if you come from a family of entrepreneurs, 00:21:38.231 --> 00:21:39.551 you're gonna be an entrepreneur. 00:21:39.731 --> 00:21:42.761 and if you come from a family of nine to fivers, you're probably gonna be a nine 00:21:42.761 --> 00:21:47.351 to five or, and I wa like, when I hear like, like there's also, we could go a 00:21:47.351 --> 00:21:51.026 number of directions with how would to train youth and what, you know, like. 00:21:51.551 --> 00:21:54.371 There's probably different opinions, like I would say like yeah, train 00:21:54.371 --> 00:21:56.201 'em to be entrepreneurs, like, yeah. 00:21:56.581 --> 00:21:56.911 yeah. 00:21:58.021 --> 00:22:01.321 And then add, add the context of, well, and then there's this other 00:22:01.321 --> 00:22:04.681 thing called full-time, and you know, you can fall back to that if you need 00:22:04.681 --> 00:22:06.811 to, but to fund your other thing. 00:22:07.651 --> 00:22:14.911 Kurt: Well, I think, I think geofencing, the idea has a certain merit, right? 00:22:14.911 --> 00:22:17.161 Because in California. 00:22:17.476 --> 00:22:20.356 I, I would be hard pressed to tell somebody like, get outta school 00:22:20.356 --> 00:22:21.886 and start a business in California. 00:22:22.216 --> 00:22:25.846 It's not a friendly place to start a business just being real. 00:22:25.846 --> 00:22:28.036 I mean, I lived it, so I can tell you firsthand, it's not a 00:22:28.036 --> 00:22:29.536 friendly place to start a business. 00:22:29.926 --> 00:22:34.156 You have to say yes to every single deal that comes across your desk and 00:22:34.156 --> 00:22:38.926 you have to work your pants off to, to try and make the rent payment, the 00:22:39.226 --> 00:22:43.546 $900 power payment, the, I mean, it's just, it's just huge to live there. 00:22:43.996 --> 00:22:44.541 Whereas here. 00:22:45.121 --> 00:22:47.671 Your point, like you could look at full-time or you could do this kind of 00:22:47.671 --> 00:22:49.111 thing where you have ownership of it. 00:22:49.111 --> 00:22:49.531 Right. 00:22:49.921 --> 00:22:53.491 And it could grow organically and you could still make your, your 00:22:53.761 --> 00:22:58.411 minimum required funding to eek out your existence while it grows. 00:22:58.801 --> 00:22:59.641 That's interesting. 00:22:59.911 --> 00:23:03.361 Toby: Like let's say you're an agency that's a year or two old and you're 00:23:03.361 --> 00:23:08.371 struggling, maybe you're in the wrong location 'cause you could pack up and go 00:23:08.371 --> 00:23:11.611 somewhere cheaper and make a go of it. 00:23:12.181 --> 00:23:13.921 And the, the thing that I think like. 00:23:13.986 --> 00:23:19.626 in hindsight, like, the, maybe, maybe the only quality that makes a 00:23:19.626 --> 00:23:21.966 business go is, is did you make it? 00:23:22.176 --> 00:23:23.796 Like, did you survive another year? 00:23:24.126 --> 00:23:24.516 You did. 00:23:24.921 --> 00:23:25.311 Great. 00:23:25.911 --> 00:23:26.871 That's all you had to do. 00:23:26.931 --> 00:23:28.041 Survive one more year. 00:23:28.041 --> 00:23:28.881 And then you'll be, you know, 00:23:30.711 --> 00:23:32.961 Kurt: you know how they, they would say things like, if you make it more than 00:23:32.961 --> 00:23:35.871 three years, you know, your chances of success, you've made it more than 00:23:35.871 --> 00:23:37.551 five years, your chances of success. 00:23:37.641 --> 00:23:37.731 Mm-hmm. 00:23:37.971 --> 00:23:42.261 And then I look at this, you know, my agency started in 2008, and while 00:23:42.261 --> 00:23:45.921 I put a pause on it for corporate employment, I never fully shut it down. 00:23:45.921 --> 00:23:49.101 It was always kind of in the background, had a couple of things going at a time, 00:23:49.101 --> 00:23:53.091 you know, trying to stay fresh, trying to, and then when I got laid off in 2020. 00:23:53.796 --> 00:23:57.246 Sure I looked for another job, but I also was like, I gotta ramp this thing up. 00:23:57.276 --> 00:24:01.116 Like this thing has to create revenue quickly or we're gonna run outta 00:24:01.116 --> 00:24:04.116 money and we are in California, so of course I had to ramp it up quicker. 00:24:04.116 --> 00:24:05.166 We're gonna run outta money. 00:24:05.616 --> 00:24:10.536 And what I found out was my ability to ramp something up and generate revenue was 00:24:10.536 --> 00:24:15.096 a whole lot more positive than sending out resumes and hoping and praying because it 00:24:15.096 --> 00:24:18.816 was at a period of time when there weren't a ton of jobs out there in my space. 00:24:19.506 --> 00:24:23.736 So I was really glad I had the ability to ramp up and do the things that I do. 00:24:24.306 --> 00:24:25.536 Toby: Yeah, I think about that a lot. 00:24:25.536 --> 00:24:28.026 'cause I have some friends that are looking for jobs right now. 00:24:28.356 --> 00:24:30.486 High, very talented one's a coder. 00:24:30.546 --> 00:24:34.446 Yeah, one's marketer just, and they're like senior level type of people, 00:24:34.446 --> 00:24:38.116 like in the organizations they, they've been in and I look at 'em 00:24:38.121 --> 00:24:40.141 oftentimes, I'm like, just go freelance. 00:24:40.141 --> 00:24:42.931 You're investing eight hours a day looking for jobs. 00:24:42.961 --> 00:24:46.891 Just consult, go look for clients for eight hours a day, you'll do well. 00:24:46.951 --> 00:24:47.671 Like trust me, 00:24:47.821 --> 00:24:48.751 Kurt: people like you. 00:24:49.741 --> 00:24:53.581 I tell people this all the time, like when people say, what does your agency do? 00:24:54.061 --> 00:24:58.201 A lot of times I'll say, we help people launch their ideas. 00:24:58.201 --> 00:25:00.901 We help people launch their messages so that everybody can see it. 00:25:01.441 --> 00:25:01.771 You know? 00:25:01.771 --> 00:25:04.591 And it sounds very simple when you say that, but. 00:25:04.876 --> 00:25:08.026 Every time I see somebody like looking on LinkedIn, I think 00:25:08.026 --> 00:25:09.886 to myself, oh my goodness. 00:25:09.886 --> 00:25:14.746 With that skillset and that background, you're 52 years old with 35 years 00:25:14.746 --> 00:25:19.096 of actionable experience, you should be a consultant for $300 an hour. 00:25:19.336 --> 00:25:19.486 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:25:19.906 --> 00:25:23.206 Kurt: Like you should not be trying to get the next job for $42 an hour. 00:25:23.656 --> 00:25:24.046 Toby: Yeah. 00:25:24.106 --> 00:25:24.436 Yeah. 00:25:24.441 --> 00:25:27.136 Or, you know, or, or go sell a project. 00:25:27.676 --> 00:25:28.066 Kurt: Yeah. 00:25:28.156 --> 00:25:28.486 Yeah. 00:25:29.026 --> 00:25:33.856 Or become somebody's, you know, seat fractional, CTO, fractional, CMO. 00:25:33.861 --> 00:25:33.951 Mm-hmm. 00:25:33.956 --> 00:25:35.656 Fractional, you know, all these other things. 00:25:36.466 --> 00:25:39.116 Toby: I think like, what are some of the, the things that get in 00:25:39.116 --> 00:25:42.176 people's way, let's call 'em, some of 'em are probably in their heads. 00:25:42.756 --> 00:25:46.866 some are probably, most are in their heads, I'm guessing, at least if 00:25:46.866 --> 00:25:49.756 you're in the United States, like, let's say you're somebody with that. 00:25:50.356 --> 00:25:51.226 Experience. 00:25:52.336 --> 00:25:53.536 What's getting in your way? 00:25:55.036 --> 00:25:55.456 Kurt: Two things. 00:25:55.456 --> 00:26:01.426 I hear security and benefits, and I always go straight to security. 00:26:01.426 --> 00:26:05.176 Can't be the reason because you're looking now, so how secure was the last thing? 00:26:05.896 --> 00:26:06.166 Toby: Right, 00:26:06.556 --> 00:26:07.906 Kurt: so security's off the table. 00:26:07.906 --> 00:26:09.526 You don't get to talk about security. 00:26:09.826 --> 00:26:11.986 There's no security from corporate America any longer. 00:26:12.001 --> 00:26:12.421 You don't. 00:26:12.421 --> 00:26:12.741 Mm-hmm. 00:26:12.826 --> 00:26:15.166 You don't get your desk and then stay there for 30 years. 00:26:15.166 --> 00:26:16.516 It's, that doesn't happen anymore. 00:26:16.966 --> 00:26:18.556 And so security's out the window. 00:26:18.826 --> 00:26:23.716 The other thing is benefits, and I always, it's so weird, Toby. 00:26:24.016 --> 00:26:27.466 I had a really cool job in Albuquerque running an automotive center. 00:26:28.741 --> 00:26:32.311 And the benefits were costing us, and I'm guessing now 'cause it was a long 00:26:32.311 --> 00:26:37.246 time ago, but let's say it was $865 a month to keep the family on the, mm-hmm. 00:26:37.326 --> 00:26:40.761 On the benefits package, when I knew I was gonna leave that job. 00:26:41.226 --> 00:26:45.366 We had a young daughter and I knew that my wife liked the pediatrician, and I 00:26:45.366 --> 00:26:49.231 knew that if I was gonna leave this job, I had to keep that pediatrician, right? 00:26:49.231 --> 00:26:49.471 Mm-hmm. 00:26:49.556 --> 00:26:53.586 I had to keep some stability in the household, so I called the hospital 00:26:53.586 --> 00:26:56.406 directly and I said, Hey, I'm gonna leave this job, which means I'm 00:26:56.406 --> 00:26:59.556 gonna lose these benefits and I don't wanna pay for that cobra nonsense. 00:26:59.826 --> 00:27:05.431 So, I need to know how much it would be if I wanted to self support seeing the same. 00:27:06.376 --> 00:27:06.736 People. 00:27:06.976 --> 00:27:09.526 And she said, well, what, you know, where do you work now? 00:27:09.526 --> 00:27:10.756 What do you currently pay? 00:27:10.756 --> 00:27:15.776 And then she goes, oh sweetie, you just need to go to our website, 00:27:15.776 --> 00:27:17.306 which is blah blah blah.org. 00:27:17.726 --> 00:27:19.786 And, and you'll see a list of our plans there. 00:27:19.786 --> 00:27:22.546 You're probably gonna be a little upset when you see the plans. 00:27:23.146 --> 00:27:26.266 She goes, but you qualify for those and, and select the plan 00:27:26.266 --> 00:27:27.376 that you want and you'll be fine. 00:27:28.486 --> 00:27:30.496 Toby, the plans were like 400 a month. 00:27:30.616 --> 00:27:30.766 Toby: Uhhuh. 00:27:31.426 --> 00:27:37.486 Kurt: My employer was making $450 a month off of me selling me medical insurance. 00:27:37.486 --> 00:27:37.576 Yep. 00:27:38.521 --> 00:27:42.361 Like, who knows if the employer was making it or that was some kind of weird rate. 00:27:42.361 --> 00:27:44.221 But insurance is like this crazy thing. 00:27:44.281 --> 00:27:44.581 Yeah. 00:27:44.641 --> 00:27:47.581 Where the rates change based on your employment status. 00:27:47.641 --> 00:27:47.731 Mm-hmm. 00:27:47.971 --> 00:27:50.761 And a lot of times when you're employed, you're just getting ripped off anyway. 00:27:50.941 --> 00:27:51.241 Toby: Yeah. 00:27:51.241 --> 00:27:54.391 Well, the employer's selecting options. 00:27:54.751 --> 00:27:55.051 Yeah. 00:27:55.101 --> 00:27:58.971 and I only know this 'cause I, I bought insur, usually my wife has insurance 00:27:58.971 --> 00:28:02.031 through her stuff, but this year she's like, my company isn't offering it. 00:28:02.031 --> 00:28:03.351 And so I went out there and got it. 00:28:03.981 --> 00:28:07.086 And it, one thing that was really interesting, so I bought it and 00:28:07.086 --> 00:28:08.616 like the options are really weird. 00:28:08.616 --> 00:28:11.556 It's hard to figure 'em out, but I ended up buying one that, it wasn't that 00:28:11.556 --> 00:28:14.736 much more than the others, but it was like a little bit more, but it's like. 00:28:15.321 --> 00:28:18.561 I, I went to my first therapy session and he's like, I think 00:28:18.561 --> 00:28:19.881 you're gonna get this for free. 00:28:19.971 --> 00:28:20.991 I'm like, what? 00:28:22.671 --> 00:28:23.811 Like, no, I think it's free. 00:28:23.811 --> 00:28:23.901 What? 00:28:23.901 --> 00:28:26.601 And it's like, it has unlimited free therapy. 00:28:27.321 --> 00:28:28.941 Like, I'm like, okay. 00:28:28.941 --> 00:28:30.111 And like I'm paying out of pocket. 00:28:30.111 --> 00:28:30.321 It's not. 00:28:30.806 --> 00:28:33.116 That would probably never be provided by an employer. 00:28:33.116 --> 00:28:36.536 It's too generous or something, but it's too generous or something. 00:28:37.466 --> 00:28:40.676 Kurt: Well, that's the, the thing that I keep going back to when someone says, 00:28:40.886 --> 00:28:45.026 when I go, you should be a consultant or You should run your own agency, or you 00:28:45.026 --> 00:28:49.766 should, you know, why are you, why are you fighting so hard to sell your talent to 00:28:49.766 --> 00:28:54.416 a boss when you could just run this thing and have some freedom that comes with it? 00:28:54.566 --> 00:28:57.776 And they'll say, they'll, they'll go, well, it's the stability. 00:28:57.806 --> 00:28:59.336 Well, stability doesn't count anymore. 00:28:59.366 --> 00:29:00.326 It's the benefits. 00:29:00.966 --> 00:29:02.346 That doesn't really count anymore either. 00:29:02.346 --> 00:29:04.416 Like what is it that really keeps you from it? 00:29:04.536 --> 00:29:07.206 And then it comes down to that imposter syndrome thing, right? 00:29:07.206 --> 00:29:09.216 Where it's like, well, I just, I don't think I have the skills 00:29:09.216 --> 00:29:11.286 to run my own entity, you know? 00:29:11.496 --> 00:29:12.876 And it's, I got news for you. 00:29:12.876 --> 00:29:14.106 Go out and create the revenue. 00:29:14.106 --> 00:29:16.206 If you hate bookkeeping, hire a bookkeeper. 00:29:16.446 --> 00:29:18.396 If you hate marketing, hire a marketer. 00:29:18.636 --> 00:29:21.756 If you hate talking to customers, hire a va. 00:29:21.996 --> 00:29:25.746 Like there's so many ways that you can incorporate yourself. 00:29:26.331 --> 00:29:30.091 To, to really take advantage of something that, yeah, I, I think 00:29:30.091 --> 00:29:31.411 I'm emotionally unemployable now. 00:29:31.411 --> 00:29:32.611 Toby, just listen to me. 00:29:32.791 --> 00:29:32.851 I'm 00:29:32.851 --> 00:29:33.211 Toby: crazy. 00:29:33.391 --> 00:29:33.631 Yeah, I know. 00:29:33.631 --> 00:29:34.081 I'm listening. 00:29:34.081 --> 00:29:36.961 I'm like, never, I would, nobody's gonna hire this guy. 00:29:36.991 --> 00:29:41.611 Except, except for some reason on a weird freelancing basis, like I. 00:29:41.896 --> 00:29:43.606 Like an agency basis, you know? 00:29:43.816 --> 00:29:43.936 Yeah. 00:29:43.936 --> 00:29:44.446 It's weird. 00:29:45.376 --> 00:29:45.886 You're right. 00:29:45.886 --> 00:29:49.456 Like, like could you get employ, maybe you, maybe you are unemployable, 00:29:49.486 --> 00:29:53.116 but do you know how to sell projects that, you know, create a living? 00:29:53.116 --> 00:29:53.596 Sure. 00:29:54.146 --> 00:29:54.196 yeah. 00:29:54.201 --> 00:29:55.431 And I wonder if that's it. 00:29:55.431 --> 00:29:58.671 Like there's some like weird mental hurdle. 00:29:58.831 --> 00:30:01.261 I've seen lots of friends go through this where they're like, I'm gonna 00:30:01.261 --> 00:30:02.941 go for it and do the agency thing. 00:30:02.941 --> 00:30:05.911 Or not even agency's probably too strong a word, but consulting, 00:30:06.331 --> 00:30:08.071 and they can't figure it out. 00:30:08.371 --> 00:30:11.161 And I'm always like, what's so hard about this? 00:30:11.191 --> 00:30:12.121 Like, you gotta sell. 00:30:12.241 --> 00:30:13.651 That's the whole job, basically. 00:30:13.951 --> 00:30:15.391 a lot of people hate the selling 00:30:15.391 --> 00:30:15.781 Kurt: part. 00:30:15.901 --> 00:30:16.111 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:30:17.041 --> 00:30:22.261 Kurt: But they don't realize, for instance, my meeting last week with a 00:30:22.261 --> 00:30:25.081 local business wasn't me selling at all. 00:30:26.041 --> 00:30:29.791 They had hired somebody to make them a one page website that. 00:30:30.121 --> 00:30:32.311 Was grossly overcharged and doesn't work. 00:30:32.581 --> 00:30:33.961 I mean, it literally doesn't work. 00:30:33.961 --> 00:30:35.521 You click on things, they don't go anywhere. 00:30:35.521 --> 00:30:37.441 I mean, it's just like, and when he called 'em and said, this 00:30:37.441 --> 00:30:38.551 website's not working right. 00:30:38.551 --> 00:30:40.111 The guy said, well, if you would've given me more money, it 00:30:40.111 --> 00:30:41.191 would've been a better website. 00:30:41.641 --> 00:30:44.971 And so, you know, I didn't have to sell anything. 00:30:45.481 --> 00:30:48.421 This disgruntled client went to the Chamber of Commerce 00:30:48.421 --> 00:30:51.601 and said, oh my goodness, I'm between a rock and a hard space. 00:30:51.601 --> 00:30:53.881 I just paid this guy 2,500 bucks for a website. 00:30:53.881 --> 00:30:54.841 That doesn't work. 00:30:54.931 --> 00:30:55.831 I don't know what to do. 00:30:55.891 --> 00:30:57.601 And they said, well, have you talked to Kurt? 00:30:58.441 --> 00:30:58.711 Yeah. 00:30:58.801 --> 00:31:02.581 Like, it's just because it's, the more you associate and network and meet people, 00:31:02.581 --> 00:31:03.931 the more the work just comes to you. 00:31:04.141 --> 00:31:04.471 Toby: Yeah. 00:31:04.471 --> 00:31:07.131 And another story about, how easy it can be to sell. 00:31:07.131 --> 00:31:09.501 Like selling is not always what you see in the movies. 00:31:09.501 --> 00:31:13.891 Like, I got a call, let's say month and a half ago from a guy he called at like 00:31:13.891 --> 00:31:19.231 7:30 AM I called him back at like 8:01 AM and turns out it's you know, he's 00:31:19.231 --> 00:31:20.716 like, I need a website, da da da da. 00:31:21.091 --> 00:31:23.881 And I'm talking to him and on the phone. 00:31:23.941 --> 00:31:24.001 Yeah. 00:31:24.481 --> 00:31:27.511 On that call without me really doing any pitching. 00:31:27.941 --> 00:31:32.111 he, he bought, he gave me his credit card, took thousands of doll, you know, he paid 00:31:32.111 --> 00:31:33.581 me thousands of dollars on that call. 00:31:33.581 --> 00:31:34.661 Never met him before. 00:31:35.081 --> 00:31:37.781 He's ready to pay, you know, like you just gotta like, be there 00:31:37.781 --> 00:31:39.221 when they're ready, half the time. 00:31:39.641 --> 00:31:41.021 Like, well, but you did the, 00:31:42.401 --> 00:31:42.791 Kurt: the, the 00:31:42.791 --> 00:31:43.031 Toby: thing 00:31:43.031 --> 00:31:44.531 Kurt: that you did was you called him back. 00:31:44.651 --> 00:31:45.551 Toby: Yeah, no, that's what he said. 00:31:45.551 --> 00:31:46.241 I talked to him today. 00:31:46.241 --> 00:31:49.361 He's like, I'm sure glad that you called me back. 00:31:49.481 --> 00:31:50.861 Otherwise, who knows where I'd be. 00:31:51.431 --> 00:31:51.671 Yeah. 00:31:52.316 --> 00:31:55.586 Kurt: Because I talk to other customers all the time, and one of 00:31:55.586 --> 00:31:59.816 the things that, so Ana Nomas was born outta this weird scenario, right? 00:31:59.816 --> 00:32:01.136 And that's why we have the name we have. 00:32:01.586 --> 00:32:06.296 But Ana Nomas, like, we, we get it done, we get it done, and 00:32:06.346 --> 00:32:07.486 customers aren't used to it. 00:32:07.816 --> 00:32:10.996 They're not used to like, oh, there was a date on the calendar and that 00:32:10.996 --> 00:32:12.796 date's coming and the job's done. 00:32:13.246 --> 00:32:15.226 Or You didn't ask me for more money. 00:32:15.256 --> 00:32:16.156 Like, that's so weird. 00:32:16.156 --> 00:32:19.156 Most, most every time we've contracted with someone before, 00:32:19.156 --> 00:32:22.216 they've always come back and asked for more money, and it's like, no. 00:32:22.246 --> 00:32:24.046 Like I did the needs assessment. 00:32:24.046 --> 00:32:27.226 I knew what it was gonna cost to get it done, and I knew how long it would take. 00:32:27.231 --> 00:32:27.561 Mm-hmm. 00:32:27.641 --> 00:32:29.596 All I did was do what I said I would do. 00:32:30.166 --> 00:32:30.286 Toby: Yeah. 00:32:30.286 --> 00:32:30.406 But 00:32:30.406 --> 00:32:34.306 Kurt: because I did what I said I would do, they referred me to three more people. 00:32:34.576 --> 00:32:34.666 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:32:35.026 --> 00:32:36.316 Kurt: At higher paying gigs. 00:32:36.616 --> 00:32:37.036 Toby: Yeah. 00:32:37.066 --> 00:32:38.176 You know what else I was thinking? 00:32:38.256 --> 00:32:42.936 there's a fear, I was reading this today, like there's a, a mental blocker, 00:32:43.966 --> 00:32:48.586 that applies here and it's like people are afraid to like, tell people that 00:32:48.586 --> 00:32:50.296 they're freelancing or consulting. 00:32:50.296 --> 00:32:50.356 Yeah. 00:32:50.626 --> 00:32:52.996 Like let's say on your Facebook page you're like, I can't post that. 00:32:52.996 --> 00:32:56.806 I, everybody else is posting baby photos and food photos or whatever. 00:32:57.166 --> 00:32:57.256 Yeah. 00:32:57.336 --> 00:33:00.096 and the, the gist of the article was like, no, post it. 00:33:00.636 --> 00:33:01.056 Own it. 00:33:01.056 --> 00:33:01.956 Just lean in. 00:33:01.986 --> 00:33:03.906 You're, you're now looking for work. 00:33:03.906 --> 00:33:04.776 Here's what you do. 00:33:04.806 --> 00:33:09.816 Like, yeah, you're gonna lose some Facebook friends, but you know, so what? 00:33:10.611 --> 00:33:10.851 If 00:33:10.851 --> 00:33:14.961 Kurt: you run into somebody on the street at the grocery store who 00:33:14.961 --> 00:33:19.101 tells you some horrific story about how they just had to hire a stranger 00:33:19.161 --> 00:33:22.551 to do something that you do because they thought you worked somewhere 00:33:22.551 --> 00:33:23.781 else and that you were unavailable. 00:33:24.051 --> 00:33:24.591 Right, right. 00:33:25.251 --> 00:33:28.551 And, and, and then they tell you the project's going horribly 00:33:28.551 --> 00:33:30.831 and they're getting overcharged and it's behind schedule. 00:33:31.191 --> 00:33:33.771 And in your mind, you're hearing all this and you're like. 00:33:34.431 --> 00:33:35.601 Why didn't they hire me? 00:33:35.841 --> 00:33:38.121 They didn't hire you because they didn't know you were available. 00:33:38.211 --> 00:33:38.541 Right. 00:33:38.751 --> 00:33:39.566 So shame on you. 00:33:39.586 --> 00:33:40.006 Mm-hmm. 00:33:40.086 --> 00:33:40.248 Shame on you. 00:33:40.941 --> 00:33:44.241 They're having a horrible experience and you're not making any money. 00:33:44.691 --> 00:33:45.021 Right. 00:33:45.021 --> 00:33:49.041 And so it, it's, it's the worst scenario that could possibly happen. 00:33:49.041 --> 00:33:50.151 I agree with you a hundred percent. 00:33:50.601 --> 00:33:54.921 When people, people in town meet me at like a Sandhill Brewery where 00:33:54.951 --> 00:33:56.361 Pippen Williamson owns that place. 00:33:56.361 --> 00:33:56.571 Right. 00:33:56.571 --> 00:33:58.221 So if anyone knows Pippen, shout out to Pippen. 00:33:58.671 --> 00:34:02.061 I go down to Sand Hills and, and people say, oh, hey, are you on Facebook? 00:34:02.061 --> 00:34:03.351 And they'll, they start looking. 00:34:03.411 --> 00:34:06.291 They don't follow me on Facebook, and I just tell 'em straight up. 00:34:06.411 --> 00:34:09.081 I go, I post a lot of content. 00:34:09.111 --> 00:34:11.601 If you don't want to be my friend, that's okay. 00:34:12.261 --> 00:34:12.381 Toby: That's 00:34:12.471 --> 00:34:15.081 Kurt: okay, because I still post all my stuff on there, 00:34:15.411 --> 00:34:16.491 Toby: Uhhuh, you know? 00:34:16.521 --> 00:34:16.821 Yeah. 00:34:16.881 --> 00:34:17.751 You know, what'd be fun? 00:34:17.801 --> 00:34:19.301 as we close out here, we're about out of time. 00:34:19.661 --> 00:34:22.901 let's hypothetically say we have a listener or two with a story. 00:34:23.396 --> 00:34:25.376 About how they sold something. 00:34:25.646 --> 00:34:27.026 Maybe it was easy, maybe it was hard. 00:34:27.026 --> 00:34:28.616 I would love to hear that story. 00:34:30.206 --> 00:34:30.836 Kurt: I would too. 00:34:30.836 --> 00:34:35.306 Especially ones that get like, that just seem to go a, A pathway off. 00:34:35.846 --> 00:34:36.026 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:34:36.536 --> 00:34:37.076 Kurt: Right, right. 00:34:37.076 --> 00:34:39.386 When you think so nothing's gonna happen, and all of a sudden, bam. 00:34:39.386 --> 00:34:39.956 It happens. 00:34:40.166 --> 00:34:40.646 Yeah. 00:34:40.916 --> 00:34:42.656 It's usually the happiest thing in the world. 00:34:43.796 --> 00:34:44.246 Yeah. 00:34:46.761 --> 00:34:47.861 Before we get off the call. 00:34:48.611 --> 00:34:50.111 What was one that surprised you? 00:34:50.141 --> 00:34:53.471 One where you, like you entered a conversation and next thing 00:34:53.471 --> 00:34:55.121 you know, you were like, where'd all this money come from? 00:34:56.831 --> 00:34:57.251 Yeah. 00:34:58.241 --> 00:34:59.171 Toby: okay, here's an example. 00:34:59.171 --> 00:34:59.951 It happened recently. 00:35:00.131 --> 00:35:04.391 I get a, a, a phone call from a, a client that probably pays me $300 a 00:35:04.391 --> 00:35:06.821 year for hosting or, you know, whatever. 00:35:07.301 --> 00:35:09.371 And they're like, I need a website. 00:35:09.371 --> 00:35:10.511 I needed it done yesterday. 00:35:10.516 --> 00:35:10.841 No, no, no. 00:35:10.841 --> 00:35:14.441 What happened was, another person on their team called me month ago and 00:35:14.441 --> 00:35:17.021 was like, yeah, we're thinking about building a website, dah, dah, dah, dah. 00:35:17.351 --> 00:35:19.841 And I, so I, like, I sent them a contract, was like, here it is. 00:35:19.841 --> 00:35:20.651 If you want it, let's do it. 00:35:21.011 --> 00:35:22.871 A month and a half later, the owner calls me. 00:35:22.871 --> 00:35:24.761 He is like, I don't know what happened there. 00:35:24.791 --> 00:35:26.621 Where, where's the contract that I can sign? 00:35:27.581 --> 00:35:30.041 So I said to him, he signed it, and they're like, you know that, 00:35:30.041 --> 00:35:32.411 you know, I'm sure he paid me that day or the next day or whatever. 00:35:32.831 --> 00:35:33.131 Yeah. 00:35:34.481 --> 00:35:34.811 Yeah, 00:35:34.961 --> 00:35:35.951 Kurt: that is good stuff. 00:35:36.071 --> 00:35:36.161 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:35:36.401 --> 00:35:38.621 Kurt: I have a couple of books published and every now and 00:35:38.621 --> 00:35:39.611 then doesn't happen often. 00:35:39.611 --> 00:35:40.391 I wish it did. 00:35:40.871 --> 00:35:43.601 Every now and then someone out of the blue will call and say, are you 00:35:43.601 --> 00:35:44.771 the author that wrote this book? 00:35:44.771 --> 00:35:45.551 And I'll say, yes. 00:35:45.551 --> 00:35:49.151 And then they'll say, well, we wanna hire you for X, Y, and z. 00:35:49.631 --> 00:35:51.281 And it comes outta nowhere. 00:35:51.281 --> 00:35:51.341 Wow. 00:35:51.671 --> 00:35:55.331 And I just, and then sometimes I say, okay, well, based on that short 00:35:55.331 --> 00:35:59.531 conversation, just to be clear, you want this bullet, this bullet, this bullet, 00:35:59.531 --> 00:36:04.361 this bullet, and then I've learned over time, I don't give them a price. 00:36:04.871 --> 00:36:09.371 I say, my guess is you're not the person with the budget for this project. 00:36:09.911 --> 00:36:12.251 I just wanna let you know that I can take care of all the bullets we 00:36:12.251 --> 00:36:15.041 just discussed, but I need you to get back to me and let me know what 00:36:15.041 --> 00:36:16.601 your budget is for that project. 00:36:18.341 --> 00:36:20.021 And it's always more than I would ask for. 00:36:20.591 --> 00:36:21.341 Toby: Interesting. 00:36:21.491 --> 00:36:21.761 Kurt: Yep. 00:36:21.791 --> 00:36:22.786 Yeah, that's great point. 00:36:22.786 --> 00:36:24.161 That's become one of my sales tools. 00:36:24.161 --> 00:36:24.626 It's like mm-hmm. 00:36:24.711 --> 00:36:25.781 I'm not gonna give you the number. 00:36:25.781 --> 00:36:27.491 I need to know what your budget is for this 00:36:27.611 --> 00:36:27.761 Toby: uhhuh. 00:36:28.021 --> 00:36:29.791 Kurt: and usually the work equals the budget. 00:36:29.791 --> 00:36:29.851 Yeah. 00:36:29.881 --> 00:36:32.611 Like, I'm not saying I get away, like making millions of dollars, 00:36:32.611 --> 00:36:35.191 but it's, there's always something you didn't foresee, right? 00:36:35.191 --> 00:36:35.251 Yeah. 00:36:35.251 --> 00:36:37.381 There's something in the communication that doesn't come through. 00:36:37.741 --> 00:36:40.741 So if you're thinking, oh, this is worth six grand, and they say, 00:36:40.741 --> 00:36:42.691 well, we've got $12,000 for this. 00:36:43.471 --> 00:36:47.941 Take the 12,000 because something's gonna happen as you roll that out 00:36:47.941 --> 00:36:50.161 where they're gonna be like, oh, we thought this was gonna be automated. 00:36:50.161 --> 00:36:51.211 And you're like, oh, crap. 00:36:51.241 --> 00:36:53.551 Also, it's run, run the chat GPT and write a plug for that. 00:36:54.361 --> 00:36:55.201 Toby: I should, I should I? 00:36:55.201 --> 00:36:58.831 You, I would probably add, semi begrudgingly, take the 12,000. 00:36:58.891 --> 00:37:02.731 Ah, I guess I can do it for that for you, because you're such a good client. 00:37:05.281 --> 00:37:06.331 Kurt: I always go like this. 00:37:07.276 --> 00:37:07.546 Hold on. 00:37:07.546 --> 00:37:08.626 I gotta see if I can pull it off. 00:37:08.746 --> 00:37:08.986 Ready. 00:37:13.786 --> 00:37:14.476 Toby: That's great. 00:37:15.256 --> 00:37:20.686 Kurt: Well, the good news is, you know, for 12,000, I'm pretty sure we can 00:37:20.686 --> 00:37:23.956 check off all of those bullet points on your, on your needs assessment. 00:37:26.056 --> 00:37:26.536 Toby: Love it. 00:37:27.361 --> 00:37:32.131 And on that note, this has been an episode of whose WordPress agency is this Anyway. 00:37:33.351 --> 00:37:34.481 With, Kurt Vanna. 00:37:34.721 --> 00:37:35.651 I'm Toby Kres. 00:37:35.831 --> 00:37:36.791 We'll talk to you next week. 00:37:37.931 --> 00:37:38.411 Have a good one.