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Music: Society Builders paves the way, to a

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better world, to a better day.

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A united approach to building a new society.

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Join our conversation, for social transformation

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Society Builders.  Society Builders

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with your host, Duane Varan.

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Duane: Welcome to another exciting

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episode of Society Builders.

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And thanks for joining the

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conversation for Social Transformation.

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Today, we continue our exploration

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of the science of depolarization.

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We have an incredibly exciting

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guest today, an amazing guest.

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It's the great Gary Friedman.

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Gary is a pioneer in the mediation discipline.

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He's published three books.

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He runs courses on mediation

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for the American Bar Association.

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He's taught negotiation at both Harvard and Stanford.

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He works with international bodies like

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the World Intellectual Property Organization.

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He's co founder of the center for Understanding and

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Conflict, which has trained more than 10,000 mediators.

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So this is really one of the

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global pioneers in the mediation discipline. So, Gary...

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Welcome to Society Builders.

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Gary: Well, thanks for that way overflowery introduction.

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Duane: So Gary... Gary: I never thought of myself as great.

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Duane: You are great, Gary! You are great.

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It's been amazing.

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What I love about your story going back to the

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beginning, which I guess we can talk about, is the

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sense of coherence that you developed in your career.

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You started off as a lawyer, and

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at some point you really weren't happy

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with what the legal profession was doing.

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And you made this transition, back in the

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early 70s before it was kind of cool.

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Maybe you could tell us a little bit about your story.

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How did you transition from law to mediation?

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Gary: Well, I was living on the East Coast, practicing law

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with my family firm, my dad, my uncle, cousins, and

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I was in court every day for five years, and

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I was actually pretty good at it.

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But when I kind of took a step back and

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I took a look at what it was doing to

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the people, including me, I felt like there was something

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about this that just was not very healthy.

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And particularly the kind of power that I was able

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to use as a trial lawyer in court felt like

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it was something that often made things worse between people.

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And even when people would win, there would

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be this kind of feeling afterwards, like that

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I had and that they had.

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What was the cost of that?

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Duane: It must have been hard, though,

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making the transition to mediation.

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Gary: I mean, mediation wasn't a thing back then.

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No, there was no transition to be made. I was out.

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I quit.

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I was on the east coast and I moved

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to the west coast and I was done.

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There was no going back.

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And I was not interested in anything remotely connected

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to the law, but I was interested and had

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been interested for a while in what happens inside

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people and understanding myself and what had happened to

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me in that process of becoming a trial lawyer

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and doing the work that I was doing.

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And so I did a lot of, I

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would say, deep soul searching and diving.

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And it was the 70s, you could do that.

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And as part of that, I realized that while I was done

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with the law, the law wasn't done with me.

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Something there that was really important to me, and

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I couldn't just turn my back on it.

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But I didn't have any idea of what to do

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about that because I knew I didn't want to go

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back and be the kind of lawyer that I was.

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I met another guy, Jack Himmelstein.

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And together we created a partnership.

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And the next thing we knew, it was the 70s.

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We had half a million dollars from the

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National Institute of Mental Health to see if

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we could change law professors attitudes.

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And in changing law professors attitudes, the idea was

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this could be a way to actually have an

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impact on the profession, to be kinder, gentler, more.

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We called it humanistic.

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It's actually called the Project for the Study

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and Application of Humanistic Education and Law.

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Long title, but basically it was about

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bringing the more human aspects to the

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interactions in the law classroom.

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Second year in the evaluators came out and

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they said, 'looks like it's pretty good.

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People are really moved by it.

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It's changing things.

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But what difference is this going to make?

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How is practice of law going to be

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any different as a result of this?'

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And we said, 'we don't know.'

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So they said, 'well, you better find out

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if you want to keep being funded.'

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And so that's when I hung out a shingle

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as a kind of experiment with two ideas.

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One was I wasn't ever going to do

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anything that didn't feel right to me again.

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And secondly, I was going to be open to

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trying new things, things I'd never tried before.

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And so one of those things was a

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couple of people came to see me.

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I was kind of getting known as a weird lawyer.

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And they said, can you help us get a divorce?

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And I said, 'Sure.

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I can be on one side, the

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other person can negotiate for themselves.'

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And the wife turned to me and she said,

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'you sound like all the rest of them.

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Why can't you just sit in the middle?

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Help us get through this together.

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We want to have a

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peaceful, friendly relationship afterwards.

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Why can't you do that?'

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And I thought, you know, I got to think about that.

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Went home, thought about it.

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They came back the next week and

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I said, 'I think you're right.

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I think I should be able to do that.

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The only problem is I have no idea how.

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So if you'll bear with me, we'll

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see if we can create this.'

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And that's how it began.

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I didn't even call it mediation for about six

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months, but people just started knocking down my doors

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quite quickly because people were so thirsty to have

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more control over the lives than they felt once

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they were in the legal system.

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They felt they were just putty in the hands

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of the system of the way it worked.

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And this was a very foreign idea

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for the legal industry at the time.

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Duane: I understand you had a little bit of

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drama there as you tried to...

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Gary: Yeah. Lawyers were not happy that I was doing this.

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The bar association was not happy.

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They started an investigation, and they said

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'we think what you're doing is unethical.'

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And I said, 'I invite your investigation, because if you

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do it, I'm going to make it public, because I

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think this is too obviously good a thing for people,

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and the self interest of lawyers in the Bar Association

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should not be more important than what's best for people.

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And so, please, let's make this public.'

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I didn't hear from them again for a few years

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when they came back, and they said, 'would you come

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and talk to us about what you're doing?'

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Duane: What a great story, Gary

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What a great story.

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So, over the course of these past, I

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don't know, 40, 50 years, you've developed this

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very particular model of mediation, which you call,

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you know, the understanding based model of mediation.

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Can you tell us a little bit about

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how that came to be and what it

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is and what differentiates it from other approaches?

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Gary: Yeah, the idea of the understanding based model is we're

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so used to, when people are in conflict, feeling like

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the way conflict gets resolved is you turn up the

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heat and you apply the coercion threats, wheel whatever you

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can do to get people to move toward each other.

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And that's typically how lawyers negotiate.

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That often has a kind of blowback afterwards.

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Maybe people reach the deal, but there's

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often a kind of regret afterwards.

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And certainly it doesn't do a lot to help people.

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As a matter of fact, lawyers often

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would say the test of a good

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agreement, whether both sides are equally dissatisfied.

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Duane: So funny, you're right.

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We hear that all the time.

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Gary: Yeah. So we thought we could do better.

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And if we use this other power, this underutilized power,

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power of understanding and if people can really understand what

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they care about and what the other person cares about

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and the situation and use the power of that that

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out of that, we might be able to find results

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that people feel like respond to their individual needs and

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what they think is important in their lives, rather than

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what other people think should be important to them.

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And that that could bring a

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whole different quality of relationship and

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understanding and feeling about the result.

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The trick is, as lawyers, we often feel like

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it's not easy to just say, okay, give away

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the power to the people to decide.

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What we often like to do is we like to tell people

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what to do, and people like to be told what to do.

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The problem with that is that it underestimates the

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potential wisdom that can come from people actually finding

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out what they really care about and finding their

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solution rather than somebody else's idea of what they

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should be doing with their lives.

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And so we think that comes out of understanding

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and working with people in a different kind of

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way, where it's not coercive and where the people

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really are at the center of the process and

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the mediator supports them and helped guide them through.

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Duane: Yeah, this speaks to this whole idea in

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your model around letting parties own the conflict,

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empowering people to solve their own problems.

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Gary: Yeah, it's really radical because many lawyers feel like

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when they take on a case, it's on them.

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They feel a responsibility weighed

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very heavily on them.

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They have nightmares, they carry

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it around all the time.

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And so this idea really flips that on its head.

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And what it puts in its place is saying, what

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if the people who created the problem, who understand their

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own lives better than anybody from the outside ever could

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and are going to have to live with a result?

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What about if we put them at the center,

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the process and have them make the decisions?

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And we just supported that.

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And so that, of course, puts a lot of people in a

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position of saying, well, then what am I supposed to do?

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Am I just chopped liver?

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Duane: So, Gary, we were talking about the need

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to empower the parties to give them ownership.

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And of course, that changes fundamentally the role

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of the mediator, as we've been discussing.

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But what is the role of

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the mediator in that new landscape?

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Gary: Well, you have to bring understanding to every

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bit of the process and understanding people and

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being able to show them you understand them.

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There's a technique we call the loop of understanding, where

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we reflect back to people what we understand them to

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be saying, and then we check it out.

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Did I get that right?

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And they say, no, you didn't get it right.

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And then we say great.

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Tell us what we missed.

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And then we go until they're satisfied we've

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demonstrated our understanding of them to their satisfaction.

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Duane: Yeah, let's talk about looping.

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I understand that's one of the key constructs in

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this model, this idea not just of getting people

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to listen, but the idea, as you were expressing

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it, of making sure that what people think they're

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hearing is actually what the other person is kind

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of like intending to communicate.

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Gary: Yeah.  I'm so impressed with how

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you've done your homework here.

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Duane: Your work is great.

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You're doing amazing work, Gary.

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You really are.

260
00:12:04,231 --> 00:12:06,844
Gary: I'm thrilled to have you understand it so well.

261
00:12:06,845 --> 00:12:11,228
Yes, that's really the idea is to really not stop

262
00:12:11,229 --> 00:12:14,860
until the person really confirms that you've got it.

263
00:12:14,861 --> 00:12:17,948
And what this means, especially for lawyers, but other

264
00:12:17,949 --> 00:12:20,448
people as well, therapists, other people, the field is

265
00:12:20,449 --> 00:12:22,886
wide open, doesn't have to be the employers.

266
00:12:22,887 --> 00:12:27,550
But the idea is we follow them rather than lead them.

267
00:12:27,551 --> 00:12:30,992
So that means when we follow them, that's much

268
00:12:30,993 --> 00:12:34,052
harder to do because actually you can't follow them.

269
00:12:34,053 --> 00:12:36,804
You can't loop unless you listen, and you

270
00:12:36,805 --> 00:12:39,268
can't listen unless you've turned your attention to

271
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:42,388
now what's happening before you in this moment.

272
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:46,180
And many times, people are two steps ahead.

273
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:49,208
Somebody comes into a lawyer's office and

274
00:12:49,209 --> 00:12:51,416
the lawyer might say, in five minutes,

275
00:12:51,417 --> 00:12:53,160
oh, I know where this case goes.

276
00:12:53,161 --> 00:12:55,096
This is case number 42.

277
00:12:55,097 --> 00:12:57,336
And so I won't tell them that yet.

278
00:12:57,337 --> 00:12:59,788
I'll sit here and humor them and we'll go through it.

279
00:12:59,789 --> 00:13:01,628
But I know I've done this

280
00:13:01,629 --> 00:13:04,226
before, I've seen this case before. Reality.

281
00:13:04,227 --> 00:13:05,218
You haven't?

282
00:13:05,219 --> 00:13:07,468
You've never seen this case before?

283
00:13:07,469 --> 00:13:08,972
This case has never happened before

284
00:13:08,973 --> 00:13:10,412
in the history of the world.

285
00:13:10,413 --> 00:13:12,576
And these people are people that are now

286
00:13:12,577 --> 00:13:14,768
they're unique, and we have to find out

287
00:13:14,769 --> 00:13:16,704
who they are and support them.

288
00:13:16,705 --> 00:13:18,352
And that means we really have to work

289
00:13:18,353 --> 00:13:21,780
hard to understand and realize they're not our

290
00:13:21,781 --> 00:13:24,320
picture of who we think they are.

291
00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:37,592
Duane: And I guess from what you describe, part of

292
00:13:37,593 --> 00:13:41,176
that path to that quest for understanding is really

293
00:13:41,177 --> 00:13:44,168
getting at what the real issues are, not what

294
00:13:44,169 --> 00:13:46,504
they appear to be at the surface, but kind

295
00:13:46,505 --> 00:13:48,178
of like what's really behind the surface.

296
00:13:48,179 --> 00:13:51,090
I think you call this going down the WHY trail.

297
00:13:51,091 --> 00:13:52,380
Gary: Yes, that's right.

298
00:13:52,381 --> 00:13:55,276
DuaneMaybe you could tell us a little bit about that.

299
00:13:55,277 --> 00:13:58,236
Gary: Yes. So people fight about things.

300
00:13:58,237 --> 00:14:02,182
They're often money and relationships

301
00:14:02,183 --> 00:14:03,360
and stuff like that.

302
00:14:03,361 --> 00:14:06,272
And if you stay at the level at which they

303
00:14:06,273 --> 00:14:10,118
disagree, then you're not going to resolve the conflict.

304
00:14:10,119 --> 00:14:12,422
So you have to go underneath the conflict.

305
00:14:12,423 --> 00:14:14,964
Einstein said that you can't solve a problem at

306
00:14:14,965 --> 00:14:17,492
its own level, so you have to find out

307
00:14:17,493 --> 00:14:20,372
what's there, what's underneath, what is it that's really

308
00:14:20,373 --> 00:14:24,020
at stake for you underneath this disagreement about money?

309
00:14:24,021 --> 00:14:25,252
What do you really care about?

310
00:14:25,253 --> 00:14:27,982
What's really important to you in terms your own life's

311
00:14:27,983 --> 00:14:31,800
priorities, looking at this problem in the context of that

312
00:14:31,801 --> 00:14:35,270
and see if we can find that for both people.

313
00:14:35,271 --> 00:14:37,352
And the idea is, if we can find it

314
00:14:37,353 --> 00:14:39,964
for both people, then when we come to a

315
00:14:39,965 --> 00:14:43,372
resolution, hopefully we can find a resolution that takes

316
00:14:43,373 --> 00:14:46,012
into account what's important to both.

317
00:14:46,013 --> 00:14:48,012
And that's why it won't feel like the test

318
00:14:48,013 --> 00:14:50,834
of good agreement is that you're equally dissatisfied.

319
00:14:50,835 --> 00:14:53,888
It means you can both find in the result and

320
00:14:53,889 --> 00:14:57,056
the money and whatever else you've decided you can see

321
00:14:57,057 --> 00:14:59,328
reflected the things that you really care about in your

322
00:14:59,329 --> 00:15:02,060
life that make a difference for you. Duane: Amazing.

323
00:15:02,590 --> 00:15:04,240
Gary: Easier said, then done.

324
00:15:05,250 --> 00:15:07,280
Duane: Well, that's why you provide the training.

325
00:15:08,530 --> 00:15:10,916
I think your basic courses is 40

326
00:15:10,917 --> 00:15:13,120
hours of training, is that right? Gary: Yes.

327
00:15:13,810 --> 00:15:15,912
Duane: What do you do in 40 hours of training?

328
00:15:15,913 --> 00:15:17,278
Gary: Oh, my goodness.

329
00:15:17,279 --> 00:15:18,766
It's very intensive.

330
00:15:18,767 --> 00:15:19,940
We're all together.

331
00:15:20,630 --> 00:15:22,622
One of the things about our model of mediation,

332
00:15:22,623 --> 00:15:25,672
which makes it actually very different, this is not

333
00:15:25,673 --> 00:15:30,226
the typical form of mediation that's used the dominant

334
00:15:30,227 --> 00:15:33,804
mediation model is one that actually has a lot

335
00:15:33,805 --> 00:15:35,932
of hallmarks of the traditional model.

336
00:15:35,933 --> 00:15:38,012
There's a lot of coercion and you get people

337
00:15:38,013 --> 00:15:40,764
in separate rooms and you caucus with them.

338
00:15:40,765 --> 00:15:44,128
And then the idea is you get each of

339
00:15:44,129 --> 00:15:46,304
them to move until you've made a deal, but

340
00:15:46,305 --> 00:15:49,328
it's you that's made the deal rather than they.

341
00:15:49,329 --> 00:15:52,470
So this is really different. It's harder.

342
00:15:52,471 --> 00:15:53,722
Everybody works harder.

343
00:15:53,723 --> 00:15:56,442
The mediator works harder, the parties work harder.

344
00:15:56,443 --> 00:16:00,106
The lawyers, if they are participating, they're supportive,

345
00:16:00,107 --> 00:16:01,988
but they work harder than they would if

346
00:16:01,989 --> 00:16:04,824
they were in a more traditional form.

347
00:16:04,825 --> 00:16:07,928
So it really is a very different kind

348
00:16:07,929 --> 00:16:10,616
of stance that we all have to find

349
00:16:10,617 --> 00:16:15,118
ourselves as collaborative problem solvers, supporting the parties

350
00:16:15,119 --> 00:16:17,240
to be in the center of it all.

351
00:16:26,650 --> 00:16:27,116
Duane: Yeah.

352
00:16:27,117 --> 00:16:28,988
So let's do a case study.

353
00:16:28,989 --> 00:16:31,718
I've read in Amanda Ripley's book High Conflict.

354
00:16:31,719 --> 00:16:32,992
I read this story of

355
00:16:32,993 --> 00:16:35,206
your interaction with the symphony.

356
00:16:35,207 --> 00:16:36,998
So maybe we can use the symphony

357
00:16:36,999 --> 00:16:40,016
orchestra example of how this all works.

358
00:16:40,017 --> 00:16:41,604
Maybe you can tell us that story.

359
00:16:41,605 --> 00:16:44,080
Gary: Yeah, well, the story of the symphony is...

360
00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:50,308
they were a fabulous symphony, but they'd had terrible problems

361
00:16:50,309 --> 00:16:53,912
around our struggles around money and a number

362
00:16:53,913 --> 00:16:55,460
of other things as well.

363
00:16:56,470 --> 00:17:00,420
They had gone on strike, and when they called us in,

364
00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:04,942
they were about to have to negotiate a new contract.

365
00:17:04,943 --> 00:17:08,220
And they realized, both sides realized, if they did not

366
00:17:08,221 --> 00:17:11,804
negotiate a new contract and they went on strike, it

367
00:17:11,805 --> 00:17:13,554
would probably be the end of the symphony.

368
00:17:13,555 --> 00:17:15,800
So there's a lot at stake for them.

369
00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:21,550
What we did was we actually took the players

370
00:17:21,551 --> 00:17:23,455
and we worked with the players and we worked

371
00:17:23,456 --> 00:17:27,056
with the board and we worked with management and

372
00:17:27,057 --> 00:17:29,456
we taught them the skills by having them do

373
00:17:29,457 --> 00:17:33,146
simulations that didn't have anything to do with symphonies,

374
00:17:33,147 --> 00:17:35,946
other kinds of labor situations.

375
00:17:35,947 --> 00:17:38,554
And so they learned the skills of looping,

376
00:17:38,555 --> 00:17:42,122
going underneath the problem, thinking, brainstorming, all kinds,

377
00:17:42,123 --> 00:17:45,626
a whole different way of thinking about conflict.

378
00:17:45,627 --> 00:17:48,488
And by the time we finished the training of all

379
00:17:48,489 --> 00:17:51,224
of them, the actual mediation itself was a piece of

380
00:17:51,225 --> 00:17:53,768
cake because they really understood how to do it.

381
00:17:53,769 --> 00:17:55,128
I mean, one of the goals I have as

382
00:17:55,129 --> 00:17:58,572
a mediator is to put myself out of business.

383
00:17:58,573 --> 00:18:01,308
So if people really have learned how to

384
00:18:01,309 --> 00:18:04,818
work together, when future problems come up, they'll

385
00:18:04,819 --> 00:18:06,524
be able to do it themselves.

386
00:18:06,525 --> 00:18:08,320
That's the fond hope.

387
00:18:08,321 --> 00:18:10,374
Duane: That's fantastic, Gary.

388
00:18:10,375 --> 00:18:12,592
What a noble ideal there.

389
00:18:12,593 --> 00:18:14,006
That's just brilliant.

390
00:18:14,007 --> 00:18:16,700
Gary: Well, it certainly beats war.

391
00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:20,256
And that model impacts the way people

392
00:18:20,257 --> 00:18:22,342
think and it takes so much anonymous.

393
00:18:22,343 --> 00:18:25,514
And of course, we're at a point in the planet's evolution

394
00:18:25,515 --> 00:18:29,652
where we see the price paid every day higher and higher

395
00:18:29,653 --> 00:18:32,132
in more and more dangerous world we live in.

396
00:18:32,133 --> 00:18:35,044
And the stakes are so high that if we continue

397
00:18:35,045 --> 00:18:38,840
to use that model of coercion and us against them

398
00:18:38,841 --> 00:18:42,824
and right and wrong as the total framework for everything,

399
00:18:42,825 --> 00:18:44,792
it's going to be really hard for us to pull

400
00:18:44,793 --> 00:18:46,790
together to be able to save this planet.

401
00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:50,796
Duane: In the Baha'i advocacy that's kind of currently taking

402
00:18:50,797 --> 00:18:53,452
shape, one of the big ideas that is coming

403
00:18:53,453 --> 00:18:57,698
through is this idea that to get antagonistic groups

404
00:18:57,699 --> 00:19:01,088
closer together, you find a greater purpose that they

405
00:19:01,089 --> 00:19:04,430
can agree on and collaborate together around.

406
00:19:04,431 --> 00:19:07,408
Do you have any thoughts on how that might work or

407
00:19:07,409 --> 00:19:10,496
how that works in the context of what you've been doing?

408
00:19:10,497 --> 00:19:13,924
Gary: Yeah, well, that's actually a book I'm writing now.

409
00:19:13,925 --> 00:19:14,954
Duane: Fantastic.

410
00:19:14,955 --> 00:19:18,132
Gary: How regular people can use this because this does

411
00:19:18,133 --> 00:19:22,916
not have to be highly sophisticated, well-trained people,

412
00:19:22,917 --> 00:19:26,350
but these are kind of basic human principles.

413
00:19:26,351 --> 00:19:28,168
One of the problems, and we had this with the

414
00:19:28,169 --> 00:19:33,208
symphony, is we had groups, and within the groups where

415
00:19:33,209 --> 00:19:36,238
people see things similarly, they also see things differently.

416
00:19:36,239 --> 00:19:38,460
So there can be conflict within a group.

417
00:19:38,461 --> 00:19:40,140
And so that's a problem.

418
00:19:40,141 --> 00:19:42,908
For example, with the symphony, there were a

419
00:19:42,909 --> 00:19:46,236
number of people that played stringed instruments, they were

420
00:19:46,237 --> 00:19:50,096
suffering repetitive injuries, and that's because so much

421
00:19:50,097 --> 00:19:53,686
of the repertoire was relying on stringed instruments.

422
00:19:53,687 --> 00:19:56,534
So they wanted what we called string relief.

423
00:19:56,535 --> 00:19:59,456
And so, of course, they weren't the dominant part

424
00:19:59,457 --> 00:20:02,384
of the group, so the group wasn't about to

425
00:20:02,385 --> 00:20:04,778
get behind that in the previous negotiation.

426
00:20:04,779 --> 00:20:07,348
And of course, in the previous negotiation, the reason it

427
00:20:07,349 --> 00:20:10,842
had failed is then the players came to the table.

428
00:20:10,843 --> 00:20:14,228
They're representatives of the players with management, and

429
00:20:14,229 --> 00:20:15,940
the management said, what are your issues?

430
00:20:15,941 --> 00:20:17,716
And they had 36 issues.

431
00:20:17,717 --> 00:20:19,486
They said, what's the order of priority?

432
00:20:19,487 --> 00:20:21,864
The order of priority is they're all the same.

433
00:20:21,865 --> 00:20:23,790
They're all of the highest priority.

434
00:20:23,791 --> 00:20:26,936
Well that doomed it right there.

435
00:20:26,937 --> 00:20:28,744
So what we had to do was work with the

436
00:20:28,745 --> 00:20:32,210
players for them to identify what are the priorities.

437
00:20:32,211 --> 00:20:34,604
And string relief became one of the things that

438
00:20:34,605 --> 00:20:37,004
other people in the orchestra realized it was a

439
00:20:37,005 --> 00:20:38,764
good thing for them to support, even though it

440
00:20:38,765 --> 00:20:40,930
wasn't going to affect them directly.

441
00:20:40,931 --> 00:20:45,212
So by the time that we got through that, there were

442
00:20:45,213 --> 00:20:48,172
really four big issues, and so it was going to be

443
00:20:48,173 --> 00:21:02,708
much easier to solve four issues ...

444
00:21:02,709 --> 00:21:05,550
Duane: In Amanda's book, again, one of the things that's very colorful

445
00:21:05,551 --> 00:21:08,456
is your own story with your engagement with

446
00:21:08,457 --> 00:21:10,558
running for office for the local council.

447
00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:14,312
Yeah, I mean, what I love about the story is, again,

448
00:21:14,313 --> 00:21:17,640
that idea of coherence how hard it is for us to

449
00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:22,508
practice what we believe, if you will, and maybe you could

450
00:21:22,509 --> 00:21:24,652
tell us a little bit about that story.

451
00:21:24,653 --> 00:21:27,550
What happened and what did it teach you?

452
00:21:27,551 --> 00:21:30,992
Gary: Yeah, I love it that I was really

453
00:21:30,993 --> 00:21:35,024
worried about this story going public because it

454
00:21:35,025 --> 00:21:37,360
was a colossal failure on my part.

455
00:21:37,361 --> 00:21:42,548
And so I realized so many people were so appreciative of

456
00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:45,594
what I'd done and what my talents were as a mediator

457
00:21:45,595 --> 00:21:49,040
that they didn't see me as a human being.

458
00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:51,796
And so this story helped me

459
00:21:51,797 --> 00:21:53,850
land on Earth where I belong.

460
00:21:53,851 --> 00:21:57,368
And so it was a very hard fall because I

461
00:21:57,369 --> 00:22:00,984
got very excited about. We had problems in the community.

462
00:22:00,985 --> 00:22:03,966
People said, we need somebody to run the meetings.

463
00:22:03,967 --> 00:22:05,358
I said, I know how to run meetings

464
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,576
where there's conflict and they said great.

465
00:22:07,577 --> 00:22:09,442
So they elected me in a landslide.

466
00:22:09,443 --> 00:22:13,132
And then this was to the local, just our

467
00:22:13,133 --> 00:22:18,338
local, 250 houses right on the ocean in California.

468
00:22:18,339 --> 00:22:19,858
And my idea was, let's

469
00:22:19,859 --> 00:22:21,638
get the whole community involved.

470
00:22:21,639 --> 00:22:23,158
And so all the people that voted

471
00:22:23,159 --> 00:22:24,630
for me come to the meetings.

472
00:22:24,631 --> 00:22:26,350
It's your community.

473
00:22:26,351 --> 00:22:29,296
And of course, one of the great surprises, two

474
00:22:29,297 --> 00:22:32,980
surprises neither of them should have been. One was

475
00:22:32,981 --> 00:22:36,148
they didn't come because they thought they'd elected me.

476
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:37,428
I would do that.

477
00:22:37,429 --> 00:22:41,172
And secondly, the people that were against me, they

478
00:22:41,173 --> 00:22:44,836
came to every meeting and they just started taking

479
00:22:44,837 --> 00:22:47,160
potshots at me right off the bat.

480
00:22:47,161 --> 00:22:49,992
Well, as a mediator, I was

481
00:22:49,993 --> 00:22:51,566
used to really heavy conflicts.

482
00:22:51,567 --> 00:22:53,688
Horrible things would happen in the room, but it was

483
00:22:53,689 --> 00:22:57,916
never aimed at me, and this was aimed at me.

484
00:22:57,917 --> 00:23:01,260
And as the me, what came back into

485
00:23:01,261 --> 00:23:03,554
my life was the old trial lawyer.

486
00:23:03,555 --> 00:23:06,732
I knew how to defend and attack, and before

487
00:23:06,733 --> 00:23:08,288
I knew it, I was off and running.

488
00:23:08,289 --> 00:23:10,208
And everything I believed in about how

489
00:23:10,209 --> 00:23:11,488
people should be with each other, I

490
00:23:11,489 --> 00:23:15,904
was contradicting from moment to moment.

491
00:23:15,905 --> 00:23:20,934
And it was terrible experience because I was defensive.

492
00:23:20,935 --> 00:23:25,348
And I wouldn't say drunk with power, but kind

493
00:23:25,349 --> 00:23:27,572
of I loved the idea of having power.

494
00:23:27,573 --> 00:23:29,738
I kind of hadn't had it. As a mediator.

495
00:23:29,739 --> 00:23:31,332
I give it away, so I'm happy.

496
00:23:31,333 --> 00:23:33,674
But this was kind of intoxicating.

497
00:23:33,675 --> 00:23:35,128
We can make real change.

498
00:23:35,129 --> 00:23:38,232
And of course, that was seeds of destruction right

499
00:23:38,233 --> 00:23:42,024
there and created a WE /  THEM relationship between me

500
00:23:42,025 --> 00:23:43,912
and the people that were against me.

501
00:23:43,913 --> 00:23:48,428
And so I went through a really horrible period where

502
00:23:48,429 --> 00:23:51,090
my wife said to me she'd come to the meetings

503
00:23:51,091 --> 00:23:55,516
with the dog and then leave after a while.

504
00:23:55,517 --> 00:23:57,052
And at one point she said to me,

505
00:23:57,053 --> 00:23:59,660
'you know, I don't even recognize you.

506
00:23:59,661 --> 00:24:01,648
This is not the person that I've been

507
00:24:01,649 --> 00:24:03,952
with for the last 40 some OD years.

508
00:24:03,953 --> 00:24:06,464
This is some old version of you.'

509
00:24:06,465 --> 00:24:09,728
And so I really took that to heart because I

510
00:24:09,729 --> 00:24:13,890
knew that she was right and she always is right.

511
00:24:13,891 --> 00:24:17,850
And so I went through a period of deep soul searching.

512
00:24:17,851 --> 00:24:21,490
I've had a meditation practice for decades.

513
00:24:21,491 --> 00:24:23,120
I thought hought this would help me.

514
00:24:24,050 --> 00:24:26,666
But I would just sit there and suffering

515
00:24:26,667 --> 00:24:28,888
and not be able to get bottom of

516
00:24:28,889 --> 00:24:30,792
it and living with this day and night.

517
00:24:30,793 --> 00:24:32,232
And of course, I wasn't getting paid

518
00:24:32,233 --> 00:24:33,512
a penny to do any of this.

519
00:24:33,513 --> 00:24:37,276
So it was like, why am I ruining my life this way?

520
00:24:37,277 --> 00:24:40,492
And people in the community would look the other

521
00:24:40,493 --> 00:24:42,098
way when I pass them on the street.

522
00:24:42,099 --> 00:24:45,770
These are my neighbors, so what could be worse?

523
00:24:45,771 --> 00:24:49,980
And so I realized I had to do something about that.

524
00:24:49,981 --> 00:24:51,792
And when I got to the bottom of it,

525
00:24:51,793 --> 00:24:54,672
I realized I had just gotten caught up in

526
00:24:54,673 --> 00:24:57,456
all the stuff I help other people unhook from,

527
00:24:57,457 --> 00:25:00,096
and I needed to do something to change that.

528
00:25:00,097 --> 00:25:03,070
And so over time, I did.

529
00:25:03,071 --> 00:25:05,348
But first, if I had to confess what

530
00:25:05,349 --> 00:25:07,332
had happened, and it was really hurtful to

531
00:25:07,333 --> 00:25:10,270
me, and I had to feel my vulnerability.

532
00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:16,766
Duane: I love the story because it brings out the challenge.

533
00:25:16,767 --> 00:25:18,660
None of this is easy.

534
00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:21,912
It's clearest when you see the

535
00:25:21,913 --> 00:25:23,966
contradictions in our own actions.

536
00:25:23,967 --> 00:25:28,012
Gary: Often the mediators that I trained were

537
00:25:28,013 --> 00:25:31,052
very upset when this story came out. I said what?

538
00:25:31,053 --> 00:25:32,440
How could you do this?

539
00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:36,748
Have these conferences that they'd invite me

540
00:25:36,749 --> 00:25:39,132
and say, let's talk about your failure. I talk about.

541
00:25:39,133 --> 00:25:40,188
And they said, 'Why'd you do this?

542
00:25:40,189 --> 00:25:41,320
Why didn't you do that?'

543
00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:45,542
'I should have. I could have. I would have. I didn't.

544
00:25:45,543 --> 00:25:46,976
And so I'm just like you.

545
00:25:46,977 --> 00:25:48,460
I'm no better than you.'

546
00:25:57,410 --> 00:25:59,252
Duane: What do you think this tells us?

547
00:25:59,253 --> 00:26:01,178
I mean, your story and everything else that you've

548
00:26:01,179 --> 00:26:04,046
been talking about about kind of like the qualities

549
00:26:04,047 --> 00:26:08,824
and the challenge for the mediator in this process.

550
00:26:08,825 --> 00:26:13,496
Gary: Yeah, the challenge is we often think we know better

551
00:26:13,497 --> 00:26:16,230
what people should do with their lives than they do.

552
00:26:16,231 --> 00:26:20,668
And people ask us what to do because they want us

553
00:26:20,669 --> 00:26:23,612
to tell them what to do, although they may really not.

554
00:26:23,613 --> 00:26:25,788
Maybe they do, because then they'll be able

555
00:26:25,789 --> 00:26:27,388
to blame us when things go wrong.

556
00:26:27,389 --> 00:26:29,008
We like to tell people what to do

557
00:26:29,009 --> 00:26:31,870
because then we think we're doing something valuable.

558
00:26:31,871 --> 00:26:37,050
And so that whole thing has got to flip.

559
00:26:37,790 --> 00:26:40,144
And that's really the challenge, is to

560
00:26:40,145 --> 00:26:42,720
really believe at the deepest level.

561
00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:44,682
And it's a wisdom.

562
00:26:44,683 --> 00:26:46,164
Which is I don't know.

563
00:26:46,165 --> 00:26:48,228
There's a Buddhist saying which is

564
00:26:48,229 --> 00:26:50,350
not knowing is most intimate.

565
00:26:52,370 --> 00:26:55,406
Not knowing and greeting the world with the stance

566
00:26:55,407 --> 00:26:57,672
of I don't know how I can help you.

567
00:26:57,673 --> 00:27:00,536
I know I really want to, but I need

568
00:27:00,537 --> 00:27:03,940
you to be able to help me help you.

569
00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:07,448
That's the biggest challenge. Can we do that?

570
00:27:07,449 --> 00:27:08,444
Can we live that?

571
00:27:08,445 --> 00:27:11,388
And the more successful we are, the more important it

572
00:27:11,389 --> 00:27:14,396
is that we realize how little we really know.

573
00:27:14,397 --> 00:27:17,532
And I'm almost 80 now, and I realize I know

574
00:27:17,533 --> 00:27:19,740
a lot less than I knew 30 years ago.

575
00:27:20,350 --> 00:27:24,096
Duane: So it's a certain demand for humility, would you say?

576
00:27:24,097 --> 00:27:24,700
Exactly.

577
00:27:25,230 --> 00:27:26,448
That IS the quality.

578
00:27:26,449 --> 00:27:30,300
I think that's the most essential quality for anybody.

579
00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:32,948
I mean, just think about this.

580
00:27:32,949 --> 00:27:36,346
Human beings with these really dark, heavy conflicts.

581
00:27:36,347 --> 00:27:38,132
Who do we think we are that

582
00:27:38,133 --> 00:27:42,532
we know how to really help them?

583
00:27:42,533 --> 00:27:46,308
I mean, it really takes an incredible amount of

584
00:27:46,309 --> 00:27:50,088
guts, but also a kind of hubris that I

585
00:27:50,089 --> 00:27:52,920
think we have to realize we don't know.

586
00:27:52,921 --> 00:27:55,016
But that doesn't mean there's nothing to do.

587
00:27:55,017 --> 00:27:57,228
There's lots we can do. Lots we can do.

588
00:27:57,229 --> 00:28:00,970
And that's the stuff that people need to learn.

589
00:28:00,971 --> 00:28:04,012
Duane: I think the challenge, as you're articulating this is that

590
00:28:04,013 --> 00:28:07,324
the type of person who is drawn to doing this

591
00:28:07,325 --> 00:28:10,170
has probably a little bit of a savior complex.

592
00:28:11,470 --> 00:28:14,640
They want to help people, and it feels good.

593
00:28:14,641 --> 00:28:16,432
It feels good helping people. Right.

594
00:28:16,433 --> 00:28:17,408
I mean, that's a large part

595
00:28:17,409 --> 00:28:19,318
of what people find fulfilling.

596
00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:21,652
And so in that quest to be the

597
00:28:21,653 --> 00:28:24,772
person who's helping, it's hard to find that

598
00:28:24,773 --> 00:28:28,692
humility of letting people own the problem themselves.

599
00:28:28,693 --> 00:28:31,978
Gary: Well, I have this conversation regularly with my wife,

600
00:28:31,979 --> 00:28:35,432
who's a great helper, and I accuse her, like,

601
00:28:35,433 --> 00:28:37,816
helping the little old lady cross the street, only

602
00:28:37,817 --> 00:28:40,050
the lady didn't want to cross the street.

603
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:46,088
So I'm going to give you the help I think you need.

604
00:28:46,089 --> 00:28:49,612
It's easy to just kind of guess at what that is.

605
00:28:49,613 --> 00:28:51,436
But when we guess, we're often

606
00:28:51,437 --> 00:28:54,172
wrong because we really don't know.

607
00:28:54,173 --> 00:28:57,468
And not realizing how much we depend on people to

608
00:28:57,469 --> 00:28:59,606
be able to kind of find their own truth.

609
00:28:59,607 --> 00:29:00,518
And that's harder.

610
00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:04,112
We have to live with their confusion, their pain,

611
00:29:04,113 --> 00:29:06,672
how they change their minds, how indecisive they are,

612
00:29:06,673 --> 00:29:10,868
how confused they are, how much suffering they experience.

613
00:29:10,869 --> 00:29:13,396
And our job is to be there with

614
00:29:13,397 --> 00:29:17,412
them in their suffering and to accompany them.

615
00:29:17,413 --> 00:29:19,440
That's what compassion really is.

616
00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:23,780
Duane: That's beautiful, this principle of accompaniment.

617
00:29:23,781 --> 00:29:25,284
Gary: Yeah. And it means we're at a

618
00:29:25,285 --> 00:29:27,920
horizontal relationship, not a vertical relationship.

619
00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:30,932
Beautiful horizontal relationship.

620
00:29:30,933 --> 00:29:33,444
We have to realize we're in

621
00:29:33,445 --> 00:29:35,252
the soup, we're trying to help.

622
00:29:35,253 --> 00:29:36,630
Duane: That's fantastic.

623
00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:48,354
So, you know, as we've discussed briefly, Gary

624
00:29:48,355 --> 00:29:51,152
Baha'i communities all over the world will be

625
00:29:51,153 --> 00:29:53,056
working over the course of the next 25

626
00:29:53,057 --> 00:29:56,830
years trying to bring antagonistic groups together.

627
00:29:56,831 --> 00:29:58,352
What advice would you have?

628
00:29:58,353 --> 00:30:01,322
This is grassroots, very grassroots.

629
00:30:01,323 --> 00:30:05,076
Not lawyers, not mediating professionals per se.

630
00:30:05,077 --> 00:30:07,770
Grassroots community organizations.

631
00:30:07,771 --> 00:30:11,274
What advice would you have for Baha'i communities

632
00:30:11,275 --> 00:30:14,616
worldwide in terms of how to best work

633
00:30:14,617 --> 00:30:17,592
to bring antagonistic groups closer together?

634
00:30:17,593 --> 00:30:19,940
Gary: You mean for me to tell them what to do?

635
00:30:22,150 --> 00:30:24,100
Duane: Touche. Gary: Right.

636
00:30:24,790 --> 00:30:27,608
So I wouldn't presume to tell them what to

637
00:30:27,609 --> 00:30:29,084
do, but I can suggest that there are a

638
00:30:29,085 --> 00:30:31,298
number of things that I think would be useful.

639
00:30:31,299 --> 00:30:35,052
I think the first thing is to realize that

640
00:30:35,053 --> 00:30:38,034
when you're trying to help people, to think you're

641
00:30:38,035 --> 00:30:42,590
doing it for altruistic reasons is self deception.

642
00:30:42,591 --> 00:30:45,552
There has to be something in it for you if

643
00:30:45,553 --> 00:30:48,416
you want to be able to help other people, that

644
00:30:48,417 --> 00:30:51,802
otherwise you'll burn out and you'll be very dissatisfied.

645
00:30:51,803 --> 00:30:53,220
So that's first.

646
00:30:53,221 --> 00:30:56,116
And I think when you realize that it really

647
00:30:56,117 --> 00:31:00,138
is something in you, you're doing this for it's.

648
00:31:00,139 --> 00:31:03,410
Often we all have ways in which

649
00:31:03,411 --> 00:31:05,754
we've been hurt and we've suffered.

650
00:31:05,755 --> 00:31:09,016
And in fact, where the juice comes from to help

651
00:31:09,017 --> 00:31:14,200
people is that stuff that's been hanging around for 1020,

652
00:31:14,201 --> 00:31:17,682
40, 60 years in us that we're trying to heal.

653
00:31:17,683 --> 00:31:21,308
And so feeling that helps us be in

654
00:31:21,309 --> 00:31:24,060
relationship to the people and realizing that every

655
00:31:24,061 --> 00:31:26,812
time we help somebody with their.

656
00:31:26,813 --> 00:31:28,098
Own wound.

657
00:31:28,099 --> 00:31:30,854
It's a little bit a healing of our own wounds.

658
00:31:30,855 --> 00:31:33,302
And so we have this very intimate

659
00:31:33,303 --> 00:31:36,096
relationship with what they're going through and

660
00:31:36,097 --> 00:31:38,592
it's corollary and what we're going through.

661
00:31:38,593 --> 00:31:41,072
It's not like we talk about these things from people,

662
00:31:41,073 --> 00:31:43,076
but we need to feel that we need to really

663
00:31:43,077 --> 00:31:47,268
get our motivations and our motivations there are motivations to

664
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:49,994
want to do this and they're really important and they're

665
00:31:49,995 --> 00:31:52,580
also motivations to not want to do this.

666
00:31:52,581 --> 00:31:55,128
And those are also really important and we have

667
00:31:55,129 --> 00:31:58,376
to listen to the motivations to not do this.

668
00:31:58,377 --> 00:32:00,184
I'm in the line of good ones.

669
00:32:00,185 --> 00:32:04,072
And so you have to decide, is this the right time?

670
00:32:04,073 --> 00:32:05,240
Are these the right people?

671
00:32:05,241 --> 00:32:07,592
Am I in the right place in my life

672
00:32:07,593 --> 00:32:10,124
to want to be doing this with other people?

673
00:32:10,125 --> 00:32:12,172
And if there's more reasons to do it than

674
00:32:12,173 --> 00:32:15,372
reasons not to do it, then we can begin.

675
00:32:15,373 --> 00:32:16,988
But that's the whole thing.

676
00:32:16,989 --> 00:32:18,832
And are the people that we're working with,

677
00:32:18,833 --> 00:32:21,390
do they have motivations to do this?

678
00:32:21,391 --> 00:32:26,944
And I think every one of us deep inside has that.

679
00:32:26,945 --> 00:32:30,928
We may not be conscious of that, but it's there.

680
00:32:30,929 --> 00:32:32,074
And it's there to be tapped.

681
00:32:32,075 --> 00:32:34,228
And so oftentimes, I'll think, in the

682
00:32:34,229 --> 00:32:38,450
face of impossibility, what's the possibility?

683
00:32:38,451 --> 00:32:41,716
And can we feed that little possibility and

684
00:32:41,717 --> 00:32:45,192
have that grow into something that's bigger and

685
00:32:45,193 --> 00:32:47,736
work from that place of more and more

686
00:32:47,737 --> 00:32:51,928
possibility until it grows and it matures and

687
00:32:51,929 --> 00:32:54,950
becomes something people can really work from?

688
00:32:54,951 --> 00:32:57,380
Groups have their own life.

689
00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:00,316
And one of the things I just heard

690
00:33:00,317 --> 00:33:02,492
this and I'm just still noodling about this.

691
00:33:02,493 --> 00:33:04,236
This is really an important idea.

692
00:33:04,237 --> 00:33:05,612
It's either a really dumb idea

693
00:33:05,613 --> 00:33:08,044
or it's an important idea. People stay.

694
00:33:08,045 --> 00:33:10,304
It's about finding people like you

695
00:33:10,305 --> 00:33:12,220
that really is important to people.

696
00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:15,536
And of course, if that's true and the world

697
00:33:15,537 --> 00:33:19,552
depends on us only being with people that are

698
00:33:19,553 --> 00:33:22,084
like us, it's going to be very hard for

699
00:33:22,085 --> 00:33:25,018
us to pull anything off in terms of transformation.

700
00:33:25,019 --> 00:33:27,108
But there's this other way of looking at

701
00:33:27,109 --> 00:33:30,480
it which is do people like you?

702
00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:35,256
And is there ways in which we can like people and

703
00:33:35,257 --> 00:33:39,566
be liked by people that are really people that we disagree?

704
00:33:39,567 --> 00:33:42,232
You know, my son is a filmmaker and he's just

705
00:33:42,233 --> 00:33:47,068
done filming of this really remarkable conference in Texas where

706
00:33:47,069 --> 00:33:52,652
billionaires are there who are very much, very conservative, but

707
00:33:52,653 --> 00:33:56,492
they really believe that we need to do something about

708
00:33:56,493 --> 00:34:00,306
climate change and they feel dismissed.

709
00:34:00,307 --> 00:34:03,340
When people know I don't believe you,

710
00:34:03,870 --> 00:34:05,696
they put them in that box.

711
00:34:05,697 --> 00:34:08,063
And so we have to find ways

712
00:34:08,064 --> 00:34:10,406
of not holding people to the pictures

713
00:34:10,407 --> 00:34:13,045
that we have of them, especially politically.

714
00:34:13,046 --> 00:34:14,527
And the media feeds all this.

715
00:34:14,528 --> 00:34:17,315
And so it makes it really, really hard to not

716
00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:20,068
just turn everything into good and bad and right and

717
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:22,810
wrong and this is how it is and oversimplify.

718
00:34:22,811 --> 00:34:27,192
So we have to really enter into the complexity of

719
00:34:27,193 --> 00:34:30,302
a problem and feel it and live with the complexity

720
00:34:30,303 --> 00:34:32,936
of it and understand that and go for that and

721
00:34:32,937 --> 00:34:37,217
realize that from that we can create understanding.

722
00:34:37,218 --> 00:34:41,938
If we're not caught in the pictures that we carry

723
00:34:41,939 --> 00:34:44,556
around of people just by the way they look or

724
00:34:44,557 --> 00:34:48,570
something they've said or some political stance that they've taken.

725
00:34:48,571 --> 00:34:51,056
And that's a lot more work.

726
00:34:51,057 --> 00:34:53,728
And it means we have to I don't know, we

727
00:34:53,729 --> 00:34:56,032
have to do about media, but we have to not

728
00:34:56,033 --> 00:35:00,298
let ourselves get sucked in to the pictures that we're

729
00:35:00,299 --> 00:35:05,444
fed and bombarded with every day about this is right,

730
00:35:05,445 --> 00:35:09,892
this is wrong, this is what's happening and resisting that.

731
00:35:09,893 --> 00:35:13,524
So can a group support each other to do that? Yes.

732
00:35:13,525 --> 00:35:16,328
And one of the things if you're talking about, I

733
00:35:16,329 --> 00:35:19,678
don't know, your healing group, if you have a healing

734
00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:22,952
group that wants to work together, we have a thing.

735
00:35:22,953 --> 00:35:26,204
In my last book, we called Inside Out: How

736
00:35:26,205 --> 00:35:30,204
Conflict Professionals Can Use Self Reflection to Help Others.

737
00:35:30,205 --> 00:35:32,140
We have what we call a buddy system.

738
00:35:32,141 --> 00:35:35,868
And this is really the key because what's happening

739
00:35:35,869 --> 00:35:39,488
inside us is really important for us to be

740
00:35:39,489 --> 00:35:42,688
able to recognize and how that impacts how we

741
00:35:42,689 --> 00:35:44,240
work with people on the outside.

742
00:35:44,241 --> 00:35:46,032
So understanding how we work with people

743
00:35:46,033 --> 00:35:50,128
on the inside is challenging because everything

744
00:35:50,129 --> 00:35:52,752
reinforces just look at the outside.

745
00:35:52,753 --> 00:35:55,316
And so looking at the inside and working

746
00:35:55,317 --> 00:35:57,316
with that, learning to work with that.

747
00:35:57,317 --> 00:35:59,860
What we have is we call a buddy system.

748
00:35:59,861 --> 00:36:01,492
So if you have, I don't know how many people

749
00:36:01,493 --> 00:36:08,312
you're talking about, 1150, you can still have people go

750
00:36:08,313 --> 00:36:11,608
into pairs and teach them how to have what we

751
00:36:11,609 --> 00:36:15,998
call buddy conversations, where they learn the skills of looping

752
00:36:15,999 --> 00:36:19,452
and they also learn the skills of speaking from their

753
00:36:19,453 --> 00:36:22,076
hearts about what's happening inside them.

754
00:36:22,077 --> 00:36:23,996
And they support each other to do that,

755
00:36:23,997 --> 00:36:26,748
to deepen their understanding of themselves and what

756
00:36:26,749 --> 00:36:29,388
they're going through and sustaining that.

757
00:36:29,389 --> 00:36:31,936
And that's the key, is can you sustain this over

758
00:36:31,937 --> 00:36:34,816
long enough a period of time to make a difference?

759
00:36:34,817 --> 00:36:36,128
It's easy to just kind of

760
00:36:36,129 --> 00:36:38,102
get excited by the beginnings.

761
00:36:38,103 --> 00:36:40,854
What's hard is hanging in there for when it gets tough

762
00:36:40,855 --> 00:36:42,790
and they hang it in there for when it gets tough.

763
00:36:42,791 --> 00:36:44,378
That's when you need the buddies.

764
00:36:44,379 --> 00:36:45,764
Also, it's important to have, I

765
00:36:45,765 --> 00:36:47,770
think, a self reflection practice.

766
00:36:47,771 --> 00:36:50,580
So we have in the self reflection book, the Inside

767
00:36:50,581 --> 00:36:55,076
Out book, nine different practices that we suggest people follow

768
00:36:55,077 --> 00:36:59,566
to be able to strengthen the muscle of self reflection

769
00:36:59,567 --> 00:37:01,038
and be able to use it in action.

770
00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:02,552
It's not like you just do that.

771
00:37:02,553 --> 00:37:05,128
I remember my father was so unhappy with

772
00:37:05,129 --> 00:37:07,976
me when I left practicing law with him.

773
00:37:07,977 --> 00:37:10,124
He came out, visited me, and I took him

774
00:37:10,125 --> 00:37:12,348
to the local Zen center and he said, what

775
00:37:12,349 --> 00:37:14,890
are these people just doing sitting on pillows?

776
00:37:14,891 --> 00:37:17,874
Don't they know that the world is burning?

777
00:37:17,875 --> 00:37:21,500
And he just didn't see that there could be any value.

778
00:37:22,190 --> 00:37:25,280
And then when I was asked and he thought

779
00:37:25,281 --> 00:37:27,328
the mediation I was doing, he said, that's all

780
00:37:27,329 --> 00:37:31,090
bullshit, and real lawyers are trial lawyers.

781
00:37:31,091 --> 00:37:34,676
So we loved each other, my father and I.

782
00:37:34,677 --> 00:37:37,090
So he was 80 at the time.

783
00:37:37,091 --> 00:37:42,610
And I said, 'I've been invited by Harvard to teach.'

784
00:37:42,611 --> 00:37:46,100
And he said, 'Why would Harvard ask you to come teach?'

785
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:48,264
So he came to a program, a

786
00:37:48,265 --> 00:37:50,974
five day, 40 hours program at Harvard.

787
00:37:50,975 --> 00:37:54,136
Fell asleep some of the time, went through it, but

788
00:37:54,137 --> 00:37:56,364
the end, he said, 'yeah, I'm a mediator now.'

789
00:37:56,365 --> 00:37:59,130
Of course, he wasn't.

790
00:37:59,131 --> 00:38:03,916
It's finding a way to have love enter

791
00:38:03,917 --> 00:38:07,100
our hearts and connect us, no matter what

792
00:38:07,101 --> 00:38:20,108
our ideological or beliefs.

793
00:38:20,109 --> 00:38:23,010
Duane: You talked earlier about motivation.

794
00:38:23,011 --> 00:38:26,228
Of course, if you're going to empower people to solve their

795
00:38:26,229 --> 00:38:29,572
own problems, so to speak, you kind of need a certain

796
00:38:29,573 --> 00:38:32,308
motivation to be at the table for that to happen.

797
00:38:32,309 --> 00:38:32,948
Gary: Exactly.

798
00:38:32,949 --> 00:38:34,024
Duane: But what do you do if you have

799
00:38:34,025 --> 00:38:36,510
a party that doesn't have that motivation?

800
00:38:36,511 --> 00:38:38,580
Gary: It's a non starter. You wait.

801
00:38:39,110 --> 00:38:42,424
Maybe things have to get worse, but

802
00:38:42,425 --> 00:38:44,584
the question is, do they have it?

803
00:38:44,585 --> 00:38:46,296
I think almost everybody has it.

804
00:38:46,297 --> 00:38:47,454
It's often buried.

805
00:38:47,455 --> 00:38:50,108
They may not be aware of it, but

806
00:38:50,109 --> 00:38:52,444
giving them the choice is really important.

807
00:38:52,445 --> 00:38:55,388
And to be able to say, 'if you do not want

808
00:38:55,389 --> 00:38:59,532
to do this, I will support you to say no.'

809
00:38:59,533 --> 00:39:03,472
Because unless people have a no, they don't have a yes.

810
00:39:03,473 --> 00:39:07,232
So if it's really a no, then you're dragging them

811
00:39:07,233 --> 00:39:09,808
along in a process, and that's way too hard to

812
00:39:09,809 --> 00:39:12,608
do, and it's kind of a violation of them.

813
00:39:12,609 --> 00:39:14,058
I mean, it's first principle.

814
00:39:14,059 --> 00:39:16,852
Respect the party's autonomy and their

815
00:39:16,853 --> 00:39:18,138
right to make their own decisions.

816
00:39:18,139 --> 00:39:20,532
And if they're saying, 'No, I'm not going to do

817
00:39:20,533 --> 00:39:23,204
this', then we say, 'I'm here for you if you

818
00:39:23,205 --> 00:39:25,496
ever reach the point where you want to.'

819
00:39:25,497 --> 00:39:28,120
And then you're working with people who have

820
00:39:28,121 --> 00:39:32,110
intention, and that's the present expression of motivations.

821
00:39:32,111 --> 00:39:34,520
But sometimes the motivation is

822
00:39:34,521 --> 00:39:36,638
the alternative is even worse.

823
00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:38,652
So this is kind of horrible to think about

824
00:39:38,653 --> 00:39:41,228
dealing with this person, but when I see the

825
00:39:41,229 --> 00:39:44,940
alternative, wow, that looks like it's really bad.

826
00:39:44,941 --> 00:39:48,876
So maybe that's all we have, but that's enough to start,

827
00:39:48,877 --> 00:39:52,140
and then can we develop it as we work together?

828
00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:55,008
Duane: You spoke earlier about this idea of

829
00:39:55,009 --> 00:39:57,230
being in the face of impossibility.

830
00:39:57,231 --> 00:39:59,968
What happens when you reach that point?

831
00:39:59,969 --> 00:40:03,252
You're in this mediation, you're working and you

832
00:40:03,253 --> 00:40:06,850
look at something and it just feels impossible.

833
00:40:06,851 --> 00:40:10,372
How do you find the possible at that moment?

834
00:40:10,373 --> 00:40:13,092
Gary: Yeah. Well, first of all, I think the most important thing

835
00:40:13,093 --> 00:40:15,750
is you have to open your heart to the people.

836
00:40:15,751 --> 00:40:18,376
And so when you open your heart and you feel

837
00:40:18,377 --> 00:40:21,432
like there is a beating human heart that they have,

838
00:40:21,433 --> 00:40:24,414
and that their aspirations they have as humans.

839
00:40:24,415 --> 00:40:26,492
And they seem to be buried now.

840
00:40:26,493 --> 00:40:28,578
They seem to be not accessible,

841
00:40:28,579 --> 00:40:30,610
and it seems to be impossible.

842
00:40:30,611 --> 00:40:34,732
We know that all it takes is for

843
00:40:34,733 --> 00:40:37,980
them to want to change that, to be

844
00:40:37,981 --> 00:40:41,200
able to make some headway with changing that.

845
00:40:41,201 --> 00:40:44,832
So I always feel that possibility, and as long as

846
00:40:44,833 --> 00:40:49,616
I hold out that possibility and invite them to find

847
00:40:49,617 --> 00:40:52,772
that in themselves, I've always got something to work with.

848
00:40:52,773 --> 00:40:54,698
So I never kick anybody out of mediation.

849
00:40:54,699 --> 00:40:56,964
I mean, if there's violence, that's it.

850
00:40:56,965 --> 00:41:01,028
Or if they're drunk or drunk or something.

851
00:41:01,029 --> 00:41:03,432
But assuming they're there in more or less right

852
00:41:03,433 --> 00:41:08,296
minds, if they're there, I assume that they're there.

853
00:41:08,297 --> 00:41:11,672
And if they've come to a meeting and

854
00:41:11,673 --> 00:41:14,408
that looks like it's impossible, you have to

855
00:41:14,409 --> 00:41:16,334
remember they've come to the meeting.

856
00:41:16,335 --> 00:41:17,928
There was some reason that they

857
00:41:17,929 --> 00:41:19,032
came to the meeting now.

858
00:41:19,033 --> 00:41:21,458
Maybe it was because they thought in the presence

859
00:41:21,459 --> 00:41:23,836
of a neutral, they could bash the other person

860
00:41:23,837 --> 00:41:25,964
and get their way and all of that.

861
00:41:25,965 --> 00:41:28,092
But there might be something else there

862
00:41:28,093 --> 00:41:30,156
too, and we're always looking for that.

863
00:41:30,157 --> 00:41:32,560
And when it works, it's beautiful.

864
00:41:32,561 --> 00:41:34,590
And when it doesn't work, sometimes

865
00:41:34,591 --> 00:41:36,496
that can be beautiful too.

866
00:41:36,497 --> 00:41:39,264
To be able to say for one person to be able

867
00:41:39,265 --> 00:41:43,748
to say to the other, you have really done damage to

868
00:41:43,749 --> 00:41:47,396
me, and I do not want to work with you.

869
00:41:47,397 --> 00:41:49,770
I'm not going to put up a bit anymore.

870
00:41:49,771 --> 00:41:52,080
So, no, I don't want to work this out.

871
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:56,056
And I consider that a success because it's a step

872
00:41:56,057 --> 00:41:58,740
forward for them in terms of their own lives.

873
00:42:07,850 --> 00:42:11,106
Duane: Now, Gary, your center for Understanding and Conflict

874
00:42:11,107 --> 00:42:14,722
provides training for a number of different courses.

875
00:42:14,723 --> 00:42:16,668
Is that something that's limited to lawyers, or

876
00:42:16,669 --> 00:42:19,234
is it for people of all walks?

877
00:42:19,235 --> 00:42:20,482
Gary: No, it started with lawyers.

878
00:42:20,483 --> 00:42:22,544
We used to be the Center for Mediation and Law.

879
00:42:22,545 --> 00:42:25,478
We changed it for the center for Understanding and Conflict

880
00:42:25,479 --> 00:42:27,958
because we started to see what we were really teaching

881
00:42:27,959 --> 00:42:29,974
was a different way of relating to conflict.

882
00:42:29,975 --> 00:42:32,388
So it's for anybody who feels like they

883
00:42:32,389 --> 00:42:35,092
want to develop skills to work with people

884
00:42:35,093 --> 00:42:38,570
in conflict, and it's become much broader.

885
00:42:38,571 --> 00:42:41,722
And we're now interested... In this book I'm writing,

886
00:42:41,723 --> 00:42:45,352
I'm interested in kind of putting together the steps for

887
00:42:45,353 --> 00:42:49,528
people, even without a mediator, to be able to kind

888
00:42:49,529 --> 00:42:52,696
of follow that they can go through conflict with somebody

889
00:42:52,697 --> 00:42:56,710
else or have discussions where they really diverge.

890
00:42:58,730 --> 00:43:00,786
And we're training teachers.

891
00:43:00,787 --> 00:43:03,698
So how would listeners go about signing

892
00:43:03,699 --> 00:43:04,652
up for a course, for example?

893
00:43:04,653 --> 00:43:06,668
If they're interested, they just go on our website.

894
00:43:06,669 --> 00:43:14,512
Understanding in conflict - all one word - dot org. Duane: Understanding in conflict.org.

895
00:43:14,513 --> 00:43:15,420
All one word.

896
00:43:16,030 --> 00:43:17,290
Fantastic.

897
00:43:26,130 --> 00:43:27,828
So, Gary, tell us a little bit more

898
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:29,412
about this new book that you're working on.

899
00:43:29,413 --> 00:43:31,274
It sounds really exciting.

900
00:43:31,275 --> 00:43:33,470
Gary: Yeah, well, the idea is exciting.

901
00:43:33,471 --> 00:43:35,134
I'm still in the throes.

902
00:43:35,135 --> 00:43:40,072
I'm actually looking for situations where people who are in

903
00:43:40,073 --> 00:43:43,608
conflict are willing to have me coach one of the

904
00:43:43,609 --> 00:43:46,920
people, and then they will talk to the other person,

905
00:43:46,921 --> 00:43:49,628
record that, and then bring it back to me.

906
00:43:49,629 --> 00:43:52,396
And I want to use those because books are

907
00:43:52,397 --> 00:43:55,228
only juicy if they've got examples and so on.

908
00:43:55,229 --> 00:43:57,212
These are not mediations, but it's really

909
00:43:57,213 --> 00:43:59,808
about the steps that you can take.

910
00:43:59,809 --> 00:44:02,576
Anybody can take with anybody, whether it's your

911
00:44:02,577 --> 00:44:05,328
in laws or your neighbors or your friends

912
00:44:05,329 --> 00:44:09,100
or people that you're warring with.

913
00:44:10,190 --> 00:44:14,356
The process is different because of the content, but

914
00:44:14,357 --> 00:44:16,298
it's the same in terms of these steps.

915
00:44:16,299 --> 00:44:19,188
And what I'm looking for is something that's not

916
00:44:19,189 --> 00:44:21,978
going to be just like a formula, but that's

917
00:44:21,979 --> 00:44:23,892
genuine, that you can do with other people who

918
00:44:23,893 --> 00:44:26,452
are actually interested in doing that with you.

919
00:44:26,453 --> 00:44:27,780
Duane: How does it differ?

920
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:30,798
I'm assuming a lot of it is similar to what you've

921
00:44:30,799 --> 00:44:33,544
done so far, but how does making it in this kind

922
00:44:33,545 --> 00:44:36,828
of, like, more self help mode, how does it differ from

923
00:44:36,829 --> 00:44:40,200
what you've been doing in your mediation training?

924
00:44:41,130 --> 00:44:43,458
Gary: Well, in the mediation training, we're teaching

925
00:44:43,459 --> 00:44:46,204
people to be mediators in this.

926
00:44:46,205 --> 00:44:49,472
It's many of the same tools, but

927
00:44:49,473 --> 00:44:52,070
it's about doing it without a mediator.

928
00:44:52,071 --> 00:44:55,088
And in the book, I'm going to be kind of

929
00:44:55,089 --> 00:44:59,808
a coach, so I will listen to what they've done,

930
00:44:59,809 --> 00:45:01,584
carrying it out, and then they'll bring it back, and

931
00:45:01,585 --> 00:45:03,904
then I'll coach them, and hopefully we'll come out of

932
00:45:03,905 --> 00:45:06,842
that as some stuff that people will find useful.

933
00:45:06,843 --> 00:45:10,484
And I'm really kind of a little bit of a

934
00:45:10,485 --> 00:45:13,416
quandary, but kind of excited to try to solve this

935
00:45:13,417 --> 00:45:16,136
problem because so many of these kind of self help

936
00:45:16,137 --> 00:45:21,620
books rely on the author's reporting of the story.

937
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:24,216
I had this great success.

938
00:45:24,217 --> 00:45:25,464
I've done that myself in my

939
00:45:25,465 --> 00:45:28,540
books, or failure, whatever it was.

940
00:45:28,541 --> 00:45:30,780
But it's our reporting of it.

941
00:45:30,781 --> 00:45:34,444
So this will hopefully get more real because we'll have

942
00:45:34,445 --> 00:45:38,540
recorded the conversation that people had without me, and then

943
00:45:38,541 --> 00:45:40,572
we'll be able to kind of analyze that and figure

944
00:45:40,573 --> 00:45:42,816
out where do they go from here?

945
00:45:42,817 --> 00:45:45,718
So I'm hoping that we'll give people some guideposts

946
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,592
that they wind up well.  Duane: We can't wait.

947
00:45:48,593 --> 00:45:50,464
We'll have to get you back on the show once you

948
00:45:50,465 --> 00:45:55,344
come out with the book to tell us the story. Gary: Yes. Right.

949
00:45:55,345 --> 00:45:56,836
Hope it will all happen

950
00:45:56,837 --> 00:45:58,030
befor I'm dead.

951
00:45:58,770 --> 00:46:01,322
So working at a snail's pace,

952
00:46:01,323 --> 00:46:03,330
but feels like I'm making progress.

953
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:13,854
Duane: Gary, you're a legend.

954
00:46:13,855 --> 00:46:15,256
Thank you so much for taking

955
00:46:15,257 --> 00:46:17,404
time to share with us today.

956
00:46:17,405 --> 00:46:18,802
So many great insights.

957
00:46:18,803 --> 00:46:21,452
Really keep up the good work.

958
00:46:21,453 --> 00:46:23,132
Gary: Well, you keep up your good work.

959
00:46:23,133 --> 00:46:24,810
I'm so excited.

960
00:46:24,811 --> 00:46:27,602
Thinking about a 25 year commitment.

961
00:46:27,603 --> 00:46:29,244
It's no small deal.

962
00:46:29,245 --> 00:46:31,970
It's kind of like we're in it for the long haul,

963
00:46:31,971 --> 00:46:34,752
and I think it's enough of a period of time.

964
00:46:34,753 --> 00:46:36,848
If you're young enough, you think, well, I think

965
00:46:36,849 --> 00:46:39,174
I might still be around then, and I'm hoping

966
00:46:39,175 --> 00:46:41,100
the planet will still be around for me.

967
00:46:41,890 --> 00:46:45,924
But I admire the choice to say, okay, we're going to

968
00:46:45,925 --> 00:46:48,964
do something about this as a collective group, because as a

969
00:46:48,965 --> 00:46:53,748
collective, you really have a power that individuals don't have, and

970
00:46:53,749 --> 00:46:56,552
that's kind of what this is all about. Isn't it?

971
00:46:56,553 --> 00:46:57,630
Duane: It's so exciting.

972
00:46:57,631 --> 00:47:00,872
It's so exciting to imagine the possibilities of

973
00:47:00,873 --> 00:47:02,888
how this will all unfold and evolve over

974
00:47:02,889 --> 00:47:05,374
the course of that 25 year window.

975
00:47:05,375 --> 00:47:06,680
You're absolutely right.

976
00:47:07,210 --> 00:47:10,444
Well, we have learned so much today.

977
00:47:10,445 --> 00:47:11,868
Gary, thank you so much for

978
00:47:11,869 --> 00:47:13,698
joining us on Society Builders.

979
00:47:13,699 --> 00:47:15,960
Gary: Well, good luck, Duane.  And it was great talking.

980
00:47:16,970 --> 00:47:18,880
Duane: Well, that's it for our show today.

981
00:47:18,881 --> 00:47:21,968
Make sure you join us again next time when

982
00:47:21,969 --> 00:47:25,952
I interview Rabbi Roly Matalon, who will share with

983
00:47:25,953 --> 00:47:31,268
us some truly, deeply moving stories about how he

984
00:47:31,269 --> 00:47:35,802
and his congregation tackle this whole polarization challenge.

985
00:47:35,803 --> 00:47:40,234
It's an interview you won't want to miss. That's.

986
00:47:40,235 --> 00:47:43,550
Next time on Society Builders.

987
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:48,008
Music: Society Builders pave the way to a

988
00:47:48,009 --> 00:47:50,168
better world, to a better day.

989
00:47:50,169 --> 00:47:54,290
A united approach to building a new society.

990
00:47:54,970 --> 00:47:57,586
There's a crisis facing humanity.

991
00:47:57,587 --> 00:48:00,162
People suffer from a lack of unity.

992
00:48:00,163 --> 00:48:03,484
It's time for a better path to a new

993
00:48:03,485 --> 00:48:11,770
society.   Join our conversation of social transformation. Society Builders.

994
00:48:15,230 --> 00:48:20,614
Join our conversation, for social transformation.

995
00:48:20,615 --> 00:48:26,868
Society Builders. So engage with your local

996
00:48:26,869 --> 00:48:30,698
communities and explore all the exciting possibilities.

997
00:48:30,699 --> 00:48:35,432
We can elevate the atmosphere in which we move.

998
00:48:35,433 --> 00:48:40,984
The paradigm is shifting, it's so very uplifting, it's a

999
00:48:40,985 --> 00:48:45,566
new beat, a new song, a brand new groove.

1000
00:48:45,567 --> 00:48:56,268
Join our conversation for Social Transformation.  Society Builders. Join our

1001
00:48:56,269 --> 00:49:07,296
conversation for Social Transformation. Society Builders. The Baha'i Faith has

1002
00:49:07,297 --> 00:49:10,464
a lot to say helping people discover a better

1003
00:49:10,465 --> 00:49:14,990
way with discourse and social action framed by unity.

1004
00:49:15,810 --> 00:49:18,420
Now the time has come to lift our game

1005
00:49:18,421 --> 00:49:21,316
and apply the teachings of the Greatest Name and

1006
00:49:21,317 --> 00:49:26,378
rise to meet the glory of our destiny. Join

1007
00:49:26,379 --> 00:49:36,684
our conversation for Social Transformation. Society Builders.  Join our

1008
00:49:36,685 --> 00:49:42,210
Conversation for  Social Transformation. Society Builders.