1 00:00:00,930 --> 00:00:03,600 Aaron Bock: Welcome to the IT Matters podcast hosted by 2 00:00:03,690 --> 00:00:07,530 Opkalla. We're an IT advisory firm that makes technology easy 3 00:00:07,530 --> 00:00:11,490 for your business. Our vendor neutral technology advisors work 4 00:00:11,490 --> 00:00:14,700 directly with your team to assess technology needs and 5 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:18,420 procure the best IT solutions for your organization. On this 6 00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:22,290 podcast, expect high level expertise from our hosts, plus 7 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:25,290 experience driven perspective from the leading experts on 8 00:00:25,290 --> 00:00:29,790 topics like AI, cybersecurity industry focused it, solutions, 9 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:34,710 strategy and more. Now let's get into today's discussion on what 10 00:00:34,710 --> 00:00:35,880 matters in IT. 11 00:00:36,110 --> 00:00:40,310 Keith Hawkey: Welcome to the IT Matters podcast hosted by 12 00:00:40,370 --> 00:00:44,630 Opkalla. At Opkalla, we help IT teams understand the busy 13 00:00:44,630 --> 00:00:50,060 marketplace of technology and strategy services with a data 14 00:00:50,060 --> 00:00:53,750 driven approach. On this podcast, we invite technology 15 00:00:53,750 --> 00:00:57,980 leaders to discuss challenges facing the modern IT department. 16 00:00:58,370 --> 00:01:02,000 And of course, my name is Keith Hawkey, Technology Advisor with 17 00:01:02,030 --> 00:01:06,590 Opkalla, and we are joined by our co host, Aaron Bock, founder 18 00:01:06,590 --> 00:01:10,700 and CEO of Opkalla. Aaron, it's been a few moons since we've 19 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:13,310 hosted together. I'm happy to see podcasting again. 20 00:01:13,340 --> 00:01:16,430 Aaron Bock: It has been a few moons. This summer has been full 21 00:01:16,430 --> 00:01:21,350 of good travel, good busyness and lots of growth. But happy to 22 00:01:21,350 --> 00:01:25,730 be back, Keith, and excited for the conversation today. How have 23 00:01:25,730 --> 00:01:26,210 you been? 24 00:01:26,330 --> 00:01:28,310 Keith Hawkey: I've been very well. We've actually done some 25 00:01:28,310 --> 00:01:32,060 traveling together recently. And I can, I can say you actually 26 00:01:32,060 --> 00:01:37,040 gave me a really neat tip. And Jeff tell me if you've 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,460 experienced this as well. But Aaron told me that if you're 28 00:01:40,460 --> 00:01:43,820 flying on a plane, the best thing to do when you get off is 29 00:01:43,820 --> 00:01:48,890 go on a little jog, go on a run and do a workout, and you 30 00:01:48,890 --> 00:01:52,010 explain some of the signs behind it. Aaron, why exactly do we 31 00:01:52,010 --> 00:01:53,720 work out after we get off of a plane? 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,900 Aaron Bock: I am not qualified to give you the scientific 33 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:00,260 answer, but I do know that many people have studied it and said 34 00:02:00,260 --> 00:02:03,560 that you feel better when you do it, and you only have to do it 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,820 for five to 10 minutes. And so with the busy schedule we have 36 00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:11,240 and the amount of travel we do, felt like it's a helpful tip. So 37 00:02:11,450 --> 00:02:14,390 for those of you at home, try it, see if it makes you feel 38 00:02:14,390 --> 00:02:17,540 better. Makes me feel better, I know that, and I made Keith do 39 00:02:17,540 --> 00:02:20,060 it on the last trip, and think it made you feel better too, 40 00:02:20,060 --> 00:02:20,450 Keith. 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,670 Keith Hawkey: It did make me feel better, until I saw how 42 00:02:22,670 --> 00:02:25,550 many miles you were running and realized that I should probably 43 00:02:25,550 --> 00:02:26,720 the treadmill more often. 44 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:29,780 Aaron Bock: You got to start somewhere. 45 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,610 Keith Hawkey: That's right. Well, you know, speaking of 46 00:02:31,610 --> 00:02:34,670 starting somewhere, we've a very exciting topic today. Today we 47 00:02:34,670 --> 00:02:40,250 have the legendary Jeff Roberts, founder and CEO of Innovation 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:45,980 Vista, on the podcast to discuss what companies get wrong about 49 00:02:45,980 --> 00:02:50,750 VCIO services and how to best leverage that relationship. Jeff 50 00:02:50,750 --> 00:02:54,170 has served in the CIO role in almost half a dozen 51 00:02:54,170 --> 00:02:58,580 organizations over the course of a decade, which means it's 52 00:02:58,580 --> 00:03:02,360 probably safe to say he spearheaded more than a couple 53 00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:07,400 buzzword, alert, digital transformations. Jeff, welcome 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:08,780 to the IT Matters podcast. 55 00:03:08,810 --> 00:03:11,540 Jeff Roberts: Well, thank you. I appreciate the invitation and 56 00:03:12,140 --> 00:03:15,320 quite a build up if you're introduced as a legend. I think 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,470 that the bar is very high for this conversation, for sure. 58 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:23,000 Keith Hawkey: Well, to with the amount of experience you have, 59 00:03:23,180 --> 00:03:29,600 leading IT department, leading IT strategy, I think legend is 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,680 certainly appropriate. So we're very happy that you're able to 61 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,330 join us today. I guess if to start here today, you lead a 62 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:45,950 practice that focuses on virtual CIO services taken from your 63 00:03:45,950 --> 00:03:50,690 many years leading in this area. Can you give us a high level of 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,840 why did you start Innovation Vista? What do you seek to 65 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:54,500 accomplish? 66 00:03:54,510 --> 00:03:59,580 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, so I guess after a career as an IT 67 00:03:59,580 --> 00:04:03,420 executive, I wish it was only one decade. It's over three 68 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:06,900 decades in total my career, but I'm not that old, right? I 69 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:11,220 started when I was eight years old, but for the final tenure 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,770 that I served as CIO, that company was acquired by a large 71 00:04:16,770 --> 00:04:19,980 multinational, and they were interested in some of our 72 00:04:19,980 --> 00:04:23,340 technology. And there was a transition there where I stayed 73 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:27,750 on board to help them on board what we had built some some 74 00:04:27,750 --> 00:04:32,010 interesting AI and analytics in particular. But during that 75 00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:36,000 period, I was sort of offered this opportunity to step back 76 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,150 and think about what I wanted to do next, while I still had a 77 00:04:39,150 --> 00:04:43,200 paycheck, and I took advantage of that, and the idea of 78 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,320 starting a consulting practice had been on my mind for really 79 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:51,180 five to five to 10 years before I felt like certainly there were 80 00:04:51,180 --> 00:04:54,960 other firms out there offering fractional CIO that was the most 81 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,640 common sort of label at that point, but I knew some of those 82 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,760 organizations, and was troubled a little bit by the way they 83 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:08,490 went about things, and felt like I had an idea for a different 84 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:13,110 approach that would let us make a better match for each client 85 00:05:13,350 --> 00:05:17,010 and really bring the expertise to the table that a lot of 86 00:05:17,010 --> 00:05:19,590 companies need, even when they don't have the budget for a full 87 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:24,870 time CIO, a lot of companies are at a size and scale that they 88 00:05:24,870 --> 00:05:29,250 really need the expertise, and someone who knows what they're 89 00:05:29,250 --> 00:05:33,600 doing can really move the needle for companies like that. So that 90 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,300 was the idea in the genesis of Innovation Vista. 91 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,180 Keith Hawkey: I'm very interested to hear about your 92 00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:44,550 early experience with a fractional CIO that didn't go, I 93 00:05:44,550 --> 00:05:47,910 guess, as expected. What can you share a little bit of detail 94 00:05:47,910 --> 00:05:51,960 around what happened there? What, where was the 95 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,830 misalignment? Any, any juicy details? 96 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:57,850 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, and it's, it's right in the theme of the 97 00:05:57,850 --> 00:06:00,700 call here, right? Like we want to talk about some things that 98 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:05,080 companies get wrong. What I saw that really bothered me was the 99 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,190 square peg round holes were a problem that comes with it. 100 00:06:09,190 --> 00:06:12,460 Really comes from the way that a lot of consulting firms were put 101 00:06:12,460 --> 00:06:16,810 together. So you start a consulting practice, you you go 102 00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:20,830 and hire some expert consultants, or maybe the 103 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:25,180 founder is one themselves, but they hire a small team, and you 104 00:06:25,180 --> 00:06:29,950 put them on w2 and then you go find clients and projects to 105 00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:35,320 assign them to, to keep them busy. It makes sense. And it's, 106 00:06:35,350 --> 00:06:40,270 you know, 1000s and 1000s of instances where that's been the 107 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:43,300 pattern. And those people you hire are probably really smart, 108 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:48,460 right? You go, you have good criteria. You know, what makes a 109 00:06:48,460 --> 00:06:52,480 good IT executive versus what doesn't. The problem is, and the 110 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:58,150 square peg, round hole comes in, where clients need different 111 00:06:58,150 --> 00:07:01,330 things, and they operate in different industries, and 112 00:07:01,540 --> 00:07:05,350 someone who's successful in one space or even in the same 113 00:07:05,350 --> 00:07:08,590 industry, but they're successful maybe in a company that's very 114 00:07:08,590 --> 00:07:11,530 formal, you know, lots of committees and oversight 115 00:07:11,530 --> 00:07:15,460 structures, things like that. They're not necessarily going to 116 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:19,030 succeed with a company that's got a different culture, and 117 00:07:19,030 --> 00:07:23,140 especially one that's in a different industry, and I really 118 00:07:23,140 --> 00:07:26,860 feel like, especially in the 2020s here, this has become even 119 00:07:26,860 --> 00:07:30,100 more true that being an IT executive is really about being 120 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:33,310 a business executive. It's understanding with our business 121 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:35,770 model, where do our revenues come from? Where do our costs 122 00:07:35,770 --> 00:07:38,620 come from? What sort of efficiencies would really move 123 00:07:38,620 --> 00:07:42,190 the needle versus sort of bell and whistle, kind of 124 00:07:42,190 --> 00:07:45,190 capabilities that we need to not waste our time on, and that 125 00:07:45,190 --> 00:07:50,170 industry knowledge is critical. So I heard, I don't want to name 126 00:07:50,170 --> 00:07:52,690 any names, but I heard some horror stories. Let's put it 127 00:07:52,690 --> 00:08:00,040 that way, from both sides, from clients of fractional CIOs who 128 00:08:00,070 --> 00:08:03,670 thought they were hiring someone really good, reputable, smart, 129 00:08:03,730 --> 00:08:08,590 and they were smart, but it was just this mismatch problem that 130 00:08:08,620 --> 00:08:12,460 you know, all all of the unspoken assumptions, all of the 131 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:15,370 lessons learned that they're bringing to the table, maybe as 132 00:08:15,370 --> 00:08:18,430 a as a hospital CIO, for example, if they're trying to 133 00:08:18,430 --> 00:08:21,640 work for a manufacturing company, it's just different. 134 00:08:21,670 --> 00:08:25,390 It's so different in ways that you can't even put your finger 135 00:08:25,390 --> 00:08:30,040 on, necessarily, to know, to you know, have an open mind about so 136 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,770 they walk in the door and they have to spend the first couple 137 00:08:32,770 --> 00:08:36,070 of months learning the business, and even after that, they don't 138 00:08:36,070 --> 00:08:40,600 really get it in the same way that someone gets it who spent 139 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,350 their career in that space. That was really the key insight that 140 00:08:44,350 --> 00:08:47,770 I had, is I don't want to build a bench. I want to build a 141 00:08:47,770 --> 00:08:52,630 network. I want to know really good consultants that I could 142 00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:57,100 pull in for a project. So literally, we have never built a 143 00:08:57,100 --> 00:09:00,460 bench, starting 2019 when I founded the firm, I don't intend 144 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:05,320 to, I get told by financial consultants and my accountant 145 00:09:05,350 --> 00:09:09,730 that my margins are not what they could be if I was willing 146 00:09:09,730 --> 00:09:12,850 to do that, which I'm sure, I have no doubt that's true, 147 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:18,100 because subcontracting is is just more expensive than putting 148 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:23,140 someone on w2 it's the nature of the economics of that. But I'm 149 00:09:23,140 --> 00:09:27,190 not willing to make that trade, I guess, because structuring it 150 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:30,130 like this gives me a choice. Right now, we're over 400 151 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:33,730 consultants in the network, so I have over 400 options I can 152 00:09:33,730 --> 00:09:38,590 choose from. Whereas a firm that has hired a couple of people for 153 00:09:38,590 --> 00:09:43,780 the bench, they have whatever two or three or one, even if 154 00:09:43,780 --> 00:09:46,510 they've got one consultant that's not billing a client, 155 00:09:47,380 --> 00:09:50,320 they have that ongoing fixed cost, they know they need to 156 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,940 keep that person busy and generating billable hours. And 157 00:09:54,940 --> 00:09:57,760 so guess who gets assigned the next client that walks in the 158 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,990 door? So I saw that problem. I heard about it from the 159 00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:05,620 consultant side as well, where they felt like they were set up 160 00:10:05,620 --> 00:10:09,340 to fail in many ways, and the sales team had made promises 161 00:10:09,340 --> 00:10:13,330 that they weren't even aware of or comfortable, that they could 162 00:10:13,330 --> 00:10:16,810 fulfill. So starting on Innovation Vista, I wanted to 163 00:10:16,810 --> 00:10:22,240 really just start out differently, in a way that 164 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,840 didn't box me into this corner the way so many firms are. 165 00:10:25,870 --> 00:10:28,540 Aaron Bock: Jeff, I hear what you're saying, and I have heard 166 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:32,290 the same sort of sentiment from so many different customers or 167 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,490 businesses along the way. I guess, going back a little bit, 168 00:10:36,610 --> 00:10:40,390 Keith mentioned, you've been a CIO formerly, before you started 169 00:10:40,390 --> 00:10:43,840 Innovation Vista, and now you're coming in as a consultant, or 170 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,700 your consultants are coming in as fractional or VCIOs. What do 171 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:52,690 you think is the hardest thing for a VCIO or fractional CIO to 172 00:10:52,690 --> 00:10:56,020 get right when they come in, besides what you just said, the 173 00:10:56,020 --> 00:10:59,710 match, and making sure they have the experience after that, and 174 00:10:59,710 --> 00:11:01,720 you've vetted that out, what is the hardest thing for them to 175 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,380 do, to to make this a success? Or, you know, where you know it 176 00:11:05,410 --> 00:11:06,640 immediately isn't going to work? 177 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,710 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, that's great question. I think a lot of 178 00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:13,290 things running through my mind, but I think the answer I want to 179 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:18,090 give is that they need to build trust even more quickly than a 180 00:11:18,090 --> 00:11:21,600 permanent IT executive who's been brought in. We structure 181 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,170 our engagements month to month. A lot of people do, even if 182 00:11:25,170 --> 00:11:28,290 they're not, if you don't get off on the right foot, the 183 00:11:28,290 --> 00:11:34,080 likelihood that you succeed is just extremely low. And so this 184 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,770 idea that you're hiring a consultant because of their 185 00:11:37,770 --> 00:11:42,870 experience, their approach, their ideas, their wisdom, but 186 00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:47,490 there's a humility that's needed when you walk in the door to not 187 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,300 sort of arrive, like there's a new sheriff in town, and you all 188 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:54,810 report to me now, by the way, and you haven't been doing it 189 00:11:54,810 --> 00:11:57,510 right. I'm here to make sure that you start doing it right. 190 00:11:57,540 --> 00:12:01,620 You know that sort of beginning to the relationship is 191 00:12:01,620 --> 00:12:06,330 impossible to make work. So I think it's more art than 192 00:12:06,330 --> 00:12:09,960 science, but that building of trust for virtual and fractional 193 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:15,120 CIOs is even more critical. If you come in as a new permanent 194 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,080 CIO, there's this idea that, all right, the organization is 195 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,650 committed to this person, and we all need to sort of make this 196 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:26,070 work. So maybe there's a little bit more of a honeymoon period 197 00:12:26,070 --> 00:12:30,210 and a little bit more of a willingness to get to know each 198 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:32,880 other. You come in as a consultant, you know you have to 199 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,910 come in and hit the ground running, in some sense, but that 200 00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:39,780 building of trust is just as important, because without it, 201 00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:42,090 you're not going to get the straight scoop. You're not going 202 00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:46,710 to get the facts about what's really happening and what's good 203 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:51,330 and what's bad about the current platform and processes. And when 204 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:54,240 you try to make changes, you're not going to have people 205 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,900 supporting that, and you know, they're going to find ways to 206 00:12:58,350 --> 00:13:01,500 sort of undercut what you're trying to do because they just 207 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:04,530 don't believe in it, and they think you're maybe out for your 208 00:13:04,530 --> 00:13:09,750 own glory, or out to make them look bad so you can look good. 209 00:13:10,110 --> 00:13:14,520 Whatever it is that dynamic is just is an enormous risk. So 210 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,610 it's one of the things we talk a lot about with consultants that 211 00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:22,830 we're placing. And frankly, it's a lot of the criteria that puts 212 00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:28,650 a consultant in our network of 400 versus being one of the 800 213 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,910 plus that are not in our network that we've concluded we would 214 00:13:32,910 --> 00:13:36,630 not want to put this person in front of a client with the name 215 00:13:36,630 --> 00:13:38,670 of Innovation Vista consultant. 216 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:40,680 Aaron Bock: Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess the second 217 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:43,950 follow up question to that is the flip side. So I must say I'm 218 00:13:43,950 --> 00:13:49,140 a business owner, or I'm a CFO. Maybe they're all different. But 219 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,580 is there a standard size business, or is there a type of 220 00:13:53,580 --> 00:13:56,490 business or a point, an inflection point, in business, 221 00:13:56,490 --> 00:14:02,520 where you feel that it's a better case for a vcio, for 222 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,790 people to really leverage it correctly. What is that? And 223 00:14:05,790 --> 00:14:07,110 where do you see trends? 224 00:14:07,170 --> 00:14:10,440 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, I, you know, we have helped some startups, 225 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:15,330 but I always say it needs to be a startup with aspirations to be 226 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:22,470 50 million plus 200 people plus. You know, it's not that we can't 227 00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:27,900 help companies that are smaller than that. It's that I worry 228 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:33,960 about the the added value that we bring to the table, not 229 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:39,240 surpassing the amount of our invoice every month. And you 230 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,120 know, there's, there's a rocket science around fractional and 231 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,140 virtual executive work of how many hours a week are we 232 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:51,930 spending, and we try to really zero in on that for both sides, 233 00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:54,900 right? The company wants that bill to be as low as possible, 234 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,890 but the consultant needs the time that they need in order to 235 00:14:58,890 --> 00:15:02,220 really succeed. And I don't want to make promises that they have 236 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:06,240 to fulfill and spend time they're not being compensated 237 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:12,810 for. So there's this constant sort of tension with that. And 238 00:15:13,470 --> 00:15:17,550 you know, we find that if it's an advisory engagement, you're a 239 00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:21,060 sounding board, maybe with the head of IT or the board of 240 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:24,690 directors and CEO that can be as low as four hours a week, and 241 00:15:24,690 --> 00:15:27,870 you can be affected. You're maybe participating on a call or 242 00:15:27,870 --> 00:15:32,640 two, you're doing some research and emails in between those. But 243 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,020 if you're leading it like a virtual CIO is doing, it needs 244 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:42,690 to be at least 12 and maybe, you know, 15 to 20 hours a week, 245 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,100 because either you have staff, or, more likely, you have staff 246 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:50,640 and vendor partners that you are overseeing, and there's 247 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:55,380 collaboration with the business executives that are there so 248 00:15:55,380 --> 00:16:00,240 that that that ends up putting the bill at a certain level. So 249 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,710 we find 50 million and up, 200 employees and up is the size of 250 00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:09,570 organization where we really can bring that value, where we know 251 00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:13,650 we are saving them or even helping them gain revenue more 252 00:16:13,650 --> 00:16:19,020 than what we're charging them, and they're not at a size where 253 00:16:19,050 --> 00:16:22,860 it's really clear they just need a full time CIO. And there's 254 00:16:22,860 --> 00:16:26,910 sort of this sweet spot in the middle there, from we it's 255 00:16:26,910 --> 00:16:30,060 different on depending on industry, depending on whether 256 00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:33,210 they're knowledge workers, or if you've got property, plant and 257 00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:37,710 equipment sort of company, the revenue versus knowledge worker 258 00:16:37,710 --> 00:16:42,990 staff count is different. But, you know, call it generally 50 259 00:16:42,990 --> 00:16:46,410 million to about a billion or a billion and a half on the high 260 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:51,330 end is the range where we tend to succeed. And our clients say, 261 00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:56,280 you know, we this is tremendous for us. What other ideas do you 262 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,630 have? We want to extend you. 263 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,900 Keith Hawkey: It sounds like you're the harmony of E harmony 264 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:03,210 and virtual CISOs, you're the matchmaker. 265 00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:05,640 Jeff Roberts: We are a matchmaker. I get asked 266 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,580 sometimes, are you like a recruiting firm? We don't do 267 00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:11,190 permanent placement. That's really the one thing that we 268 00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:15,930 don't do. We sometimes have a consultant and a client that 269 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,630 sort of fall in love with each other, and the growth is there, 270 00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:21,600 and they want to bring them on board. It's totally fine, and I 271 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,850 don't want to stand in the way of that, but it's not our it's 272 00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:26,490 not our business model. It's on our concept. It's all 273 00:17:26,490 --> 00:17:32,880 contractual, subcontracted on 1099 like I talked about. But 274 00:17:32,910 --> 00:17:36,870 the matchmaking of it's not just industry and technical 275 00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:40,140 experience, right? There's this idea of formality and the 276 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:43,380 temperament, and in some sense, what part of the country are you 277 00:17:43,380 --> 00:17:47,070 in strange to say, but you know, culturally that matters to some 278 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:50,040 people, they just are going to feel a little bit more of a vibe 279 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,040 with the rest of the C suite, versus being a fish out of 280 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:58,380 water. So there's a lot that goes in, and that's why, you 281 00:17:58,380 --> 00:18:01,470 know, really is as big as we can get our network with good 282 00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:05,580 consultants, the better, because it gives us more and more 283 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:07,350 options from which we can choose. 284 00:18:07,410 --> 00:18:11,820 Keith Hawkey: It reminds me of a CIO that I work with that came 285 00:18:11,820 --> 00:18:16,500 from Los Angeles, California, and now he works for a bank in 286 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:23,130 South Carolina. And he would tell me that you know, in his, 287 00:18:23,130 --> 00:18:26,940 in his previous life, working for in a number of IT, 288 00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:30,780 leadership roles in in on the West Coast, in California, that 289 00:18:31,170 --> 00:18:36,930 if he wasn't consistently changing the dynamics of the 290 00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:41,880 organization, of the, you know, the technology, the people in 291 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,450 the process, his employees would get bored and they would leave. 292 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:51,180 Change was a part of the the culture in that part of the 293 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:56,400 country and and then he decides, hey, you know, I'd like a slower 294 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,000 pace of life. Let's move to small town in South Carolina, 295 00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:06,600 and change is very difficult for some in this part of the world, 296 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,580 and and it's it's certainly a shock, but I could see how, if 297 00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:17,190 you bring in a an IT leader that's very used to that, that 298 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:21,630 quick, quick clip of change from the West Coast that's going to 299 00:19:21,630 --> 00:19:27,060 come to the southeast and expect everyone to change it at their 300 00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:28,980 pace, that there would be a mismatch there. 301 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,010 Jeff Roberts: Absolutely. There's so many examples like 302 00:19:32,010 --> 00:19:35,250 that that I could point to. You know, people that are used to 303 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:38,880 operating in a very agile environment with a business 304 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:45,930 leadership that's used to that it can seem to more formal, more 305 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,380 more planner, sorts of executives that they're going by 306 00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:51,840 the seat of their pants. You know, you don't have a vision, 307 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,320 you don't have a strategy. And really the truth is, they've got 308 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,910 probably some broad strokes, but on purpose, they are waiting to. 309 00:19:59,910 --> 00:20:03,960 Fill in some of those details until they've put something out 310 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,690 for a proof of concept. They've used it in the real world, 311 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,320 right? The whole agile kind of mindset, especially around 312 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,550 software, you know, in other organizations, you've got to 313 00:20:14,550 --> 00:20:19,500 come with a slide deck that's 80 slides and have everything fully 314 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:21,690 baked on. How are you going to design it? How are you going to 315 00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:24,990 build it? How are roll it out before you ever take 316 00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:30,120 step one to get that budget approved. So it's, it's all of 317 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:33,840 those sort of dynamics that I really enjoy about the 318 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:39,780 matchmaking aspect of what I do. And and seeing a client this 319 00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:43,290 just really thrilled with the consultant. We send them. And, 320 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,250 you know, I check in with with feedback, both with the 321 00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:50,610 consultant and the client, as you can imagine, and when I hear 322 00:20:50,610 --> 00:20:54,840 good things. And hey, we want to extend them. And man, we really 323 00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:59,280 seeing the value of what they're bringing to the table. That is, 324 00:20:59,310 --> 00:21:01,920 I don't know that's fun. That's just a lot of fun for me. 325 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,570 Aaron Bock: You mentioned 10 to 15, 15 hours a week. You know, 326 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,270 I'm sure that there's some that are on the low side, some on the 327 00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:10,690 high side. But when you set expectations, and for folks out 328 00:21:10,690 --> 00:21:14,200 there that may be thinking, hey, I need a VCIO or a fractional 329 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:20,140 CIO. How? How do you set expectations on the how quick 330 00:21:20,140 --> 00:21:23,230 you can make an impact. Is it I'll make an impact from day one 331 00:21:23,230 --> 00:21:26,890 because I have a plan, or does it typically take three to six 332 00:21:26,890 --> 00:21:32,290 months to show some of that is working and measuring? You know, 333 00:21:32,350 --> 00:21:33,160 success? 334 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,890 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, it's somewhere between that, 335 00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:38,910 actually. So the day one thing is just very arrogant to believe 336 00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:42,210 that you can walk in and see something that's so obviously 337 00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:46,140 wrong that you could tweak, and there's some savings there, like 338 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,340 that that turns clients off, that, you know, we're not 339 00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:53,430 stupid, right? Like, I mean, what we're doing makes sense. 340 00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:57,060 There's probably a better way, but it's going to be some amount 341 00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:01,350 of analysis to find that, and whether it's new platforms or 342 00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:05,700 processes, or the structure, vendor partners, whatever. So we 343 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:10,050 tend to say month to month, and you will see value either 344 00:22:10,050 --> 00:22:14,670 already delivered, or you will see it on the horizon that you 345 00:22:14,670 --> 00:22:18,120 know we really put the ball in their hands to say, look, and if 346 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:22,230 you don't see it, then let us know you you would like to 347 00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:26,640 cancel and and you should cancel, because this whole thing 348 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,610 is about ROI. You know, if you're spending money with us, 349 00:22:27,270 --> 00:24:17,100 Aaron Bock: I guess you sort of hit on it, but you have a month 350 00:22:29,610 --> 00:22:33,060 you need to see at least that much, if not more, coming back 351 00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:35,790 to you. And savings, revenue, efficiency. Maybe it's 352 00:22:35,790 --> 00:22:39,270 compliance that's that's a little harder to put $1 number 353 00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:42,720 on, but you know it when you see it, and some of those are 354 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,100 existential risks, if you fail a certification or fail an audit 355 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:51,360 as an organization, so they'll know it when they see it. And 356 00:22:51,810 --> 00:22:54,630 that's why we like we really like that month to month and we 357 00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:58,440 like hyping that month to month structure, because it sets us 358 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,980 apart from some competitors as well, who want you to sign up to 359 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:04,980 say, look, we need at least a year for our person to get their 360 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:08,670 feet on the ground and for you to see the value. And I don't 361 00:23:08,670 --> 00:23:11,820 like that. I don't think it's true first of all. And I think 362 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:15,570 it sort of sets the wrong expectation that they might be 363 00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:18,480 unhappy for a while, and then, you know, they're going to feel 364 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,880 better by the time 12 months rolls around. I'd rather them 365 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,850 feel good from the very beginning. And, you know, it's, 366 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,450 it's not some immediate harvest basket that we bring to them of 367 00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:30,570 dollars, but there's enough there. And they get a sense of 368 00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:34,770 the thought process that when they're up for renewing for the 369 00:23:34,770 --> 00:23:37,740 second month, it should be a no brainer, and it is for our 370 00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:40,860 clients. So that's a great question, though, and it's one 371 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:45,660 that, you know, there's a lot of sort of preparatory work that 372 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:48,300 goes into, what are we promising? What are our 373 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:52,620 deliverables? Sometimes it's, you know, strategic plans, 374 00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:55,830 documents, roadmaps, things like that. And sometimes it's 375 00:23:55,980 --> 00:24:00,090 leadership. And we're doing some of that planning and analysis, 376 00:24:00,090 --> 00:24:07,080 of course, to know how to lead. But you know, is a virtual CIO 377 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,240 doing a good job. There's like 50 different things that go into 378 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,710 answering that question. 379 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,730 to month approach, and then you set expectations to say, here's 380 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:22,950 how we're going to get there, and it depends on the 381 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:26,910 organization. What's it? I mean, you don't share names and redact 382 00:24:26,910 --> 00:24:29,820 anything you want, but maybe help us. Give us a specific 383 00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:33,810 example of an organization where you saw either quick or 384 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:38,160 relatively quick success. And what did it relate to? Where did 385 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,500 it fall? How did you guys identify it so quick? 386 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,060 Jeff Roberts: Yeah. So one example jump into my mind is a 387 00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:49,090 university that they had a some drama, I guess in the IT 388 00:24:49,090 --> 00:24:55,180 leadership, they had a new executive in another part of the 389 00:24:55,180 --> 00:25:00,370 organization come in. Believe it was a CFO that had some tension 390 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:05,050 with the head of IT. They had higher expectations. There were 391 00:25:05,050 --> 00:25:07,780 problems. The rest of the leadership team has sort of 392 00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:11,860 gotten used to it, to be honest. So IT was not what it should be, 393 00:25:12,190 --> 00:25:15,100 that tension ended up blowing up to the point where the head of 394 00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:19,330 IT resigned, like unexpectedly, I'm out of here, sort of thing. 395 00:25:20,410 --> 00:25:26,050 And so we're brought in, sort of in firefighting mode. And so 396 00:25:26,050 --> 00:25:30,400 there's not, you know, I would say it's 88% of the time when 397 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,640 we're brought in, we're brought in to do an assessment and 398 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,110 recommendations report, and we have a process for that, and it 399 00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:36,910 takes three to four weeks, and we deliver back something that 400 00:25:36,910 --> 00:25:44,170 kind of tells them where we think they are and what we think 401 00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:46,870 that they should do. And then from there, they often say, 402 00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:49,360 that's this is great. Can we have your help to make it happen 403 00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:53,140 in a firefight? You don't have the benefit of that. You got to 404 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:55,840 jump right in. We need someone to grab a steering wheel. That 405 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,840 person is not in the building. There's no one that we feel 406 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,370 comfortable knows. You know, the six or seven areas of it, and we 407 00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:06,910 have people that know their area, but no one that can do 408 00:26:06,910 --> 00:26:12,220 this. So we come in as an interim, and our consultant does 409 00:26:12,220 --> 00:26:15,550 a fantastic job of, sort of putting out the immediate fires, 410 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:20,890 triaging the sick patients, is how he talked about this a lot. 411 00:26:20,890 --> 00:26:23,560 So there's, you know, there's immediate surgery or this 412 00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:27,820 patient's going to die. There's, you know, hook them up to an IV, 413 00:26:27,820 --> 00:26:30,340 and we need to get to them next. And then there's okay. This over 414 00:26:30,340 --> 00:26:35,320 here, it's actually okay. These processes, these platforms, seem 415 00:26:35,710 --> 00:26:40,450 workable, and nothing urgent needs to be done. And that very 416 00:26:40,450 --> 00:26:44,680 quick, professional sort of approach. I mean, I talked about 417 00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:48,820 taking a month to do that in the firefight mode. He did that 418 00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:52,780 within a week or two, very successfully, in a way that the 419 00:26:52,780 --> 00:26:57,160 leadership team saw his thought process. You know, why is this 420 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,340 needing immediate surgery? And if some of it was having to 421 00:27:00,340 --> 00:27:03,580 spend money. Why are we spending the money? What are the ways we 422 00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:06,460 might spend money? Why am I recommending this specific way? 423 00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:10,390 They just really liked his thought process, and they saw 424 00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:14,500 the wisdom and the expertise there. And that is a client 425 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:17,800 who's been a client of ours now for over four years. Because 426 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,970 that interim turned into an ongoing. You know what? We would 427 00:27:21,970 --> 00:27:26,230 just love to have this person continue to fill this role. He 428 00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:29,530 likes them. They like him. You know that that's a great sort of 429 00:27:29,530 --> 00:27:33,340 success story. They're all different, but that's an example 430 00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:37,300 of one where it's it's just the difference between someone who 431 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:40,870 knows what they're doing and has that professional approach can 432 00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:45,040 make all the difference versus, you know, even average or 433 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,100 mediocre, you know, you make some missteps, and those are 434 00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:52,480 painful, and then you got a client that says, I mean, I 435 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,340 don't know, it feels like maybe we could get someone better 436 00:27:54,340 --> 00:27:58,960 somewhere else, right? We want clients to say, this is we can't 437 00:27:58,990 --> 00:28:01,540 actually imagine that we could find a better fit than this 438 00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:02,020 person. 439 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,360 Keith Hawkey: Do you find that some of the virtual CIOs in your 440 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:12,520 network are better suited for those firefights and some are 441 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,990 better better suited for while those long term engagements? How 442 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:18,040 do you assess that? 443 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,030 Jeff Roberts: Oh, wow. I mean, I speak with all of them, and then 444 00:28:21,030 --> 00:28:24,510 keep in touch with them periodically. It's one on one 445 00:28:24,510 --> 00:28:29,130 conversations, is the short answer. So I, you know, I'm I 446 00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:32,850 don't have a client in mind when I meet these consultants, it's 447 00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:37,290 more, you know, tell me about your approach and this industry 448 00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:40,110 you've worked. Tell me about, you know, how you handle this 449 00:28:40,110 --> 00:28:43,650 situation, I see this referenced on your resume. I'm sort of 450 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:47,850 interviewing them, in some sense, to whether they belong in 451 00:28:47,850 --> 00:28:51,480 our network. And so I try to get a sense of some of the 452 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,270 intangible things that are not on the resume, some of the 453 00:28:54,270 --> 00:29:00,900 leadership communication. Do they have a backbone? If they 454 00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,980 have a backbone, is it overdone to the point where they might 455 00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:09,330 come off as abrasive or arrogant? Are they too much of a 456 00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:14,340 pushover, where I need to think about sort of a farmer, kind of 457 00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:16,260 engagement for them? Maybe they're really great 458 00:29:16,260 --> 00:29:20,340 technically. But if we've got an organization that needs change 459 00:29:20,370 --> 00:29:24,990 and it needs the winning of hearts and minds. That's not 460 00:29:24,990 --> 00:29:27,450 going to work right? So there's a certain temperament, 461 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:33,810 professional assertiveness, I call it, that I can tell someone 462 00:29:33,810 --> 00:29:36,870 could be diplomatic about it, but, but they're not going to 463 00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:40,590 give up. If someone says I don't know that we're comfortable with 464 00:29:40,590 --> 00:29:44,190 that. They'll just continue to build their case. Understand 465 00:29:44,190 --> 00:29:48,450 what's important to that stakeholder. Let's work on that. 466 00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:54,060 Let's let's begin to win hearts and minds and turn ship. And 467 00:29:54,060 --> 00:29:57,720 that is, it's a difficult thing, but for those that are capable, 468 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,170 it's also really probably the most satisfying thing that you 469 00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:06,810 can do is a turnaround of an organization. You know, you know 470 00:30:06,810 --> 00:30:10,980 it, if you've seen it right, it's, it's just this feeling, 471 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,790 you know, you walk or in the virtual world, you talk with 472 00:30:14,790 --> 00:30:18,180 people about how things are going a year later, and you just 473 00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:22,380 have this feeling like, you know, I did that. This would 474 00:30:22,380 --> 00:30:25,950 have been chaos a year ago, and now we've got a process. People 475 00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:31,650 are aligned, people are happy, people are staying. Things are 476 00:30:31,650 --> 00:30:37,590 working right. And so that's, that's a fun, fun dynamic. 477 00:30:37,650 --> 00:30:40,530 Aaron Bock: If you had to give advice to a company that maybe 478 00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:44,400 doesn't either think they can afford a VCIO or can't afford a 479 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,120 VCIO. What advice would you give them about just the way to think 480 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,690 about IT in general, so that they can plan for it better? 481 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,510 Jeff Roberts: Yeah. So it's 2024 the digital era is here, and I 482 00:30:57,510 --> 00:31:02,610 have this conversation a lot so companies where their systems 483 00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:05,700 are up and running, they're not being hacked. They haven't had a 484 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:09,750 ransomware hit. You know, things sent, things tend to work. I 485 00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:13,860 hear that from CEOs and CFOs a lot, and I challenge them and 486 00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:17,760 say, well, is that all you want from it? Because your 487 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,450 competitors are out there thinking about how they can take 488 00:31:21,780 --> 00:31:25,380 customers away from you with their technology. They're out 489 00:31:25,380 --> 00:31:28,290 there thinking about how they can create digital products to 490 00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:33,780 upsell their customers, how they can create a capability that no 491 00:31:33,780 --> 00:31:37,890 one else in your space can match, and begin to pick off 492 00:31:37,890 --> 00:31:41,850 customers one by one from everybody else and just really 493 00:31:41,850 --> 00:31:46,320 disrupt the space so it, you know, technology has gone beyond 494 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:52,380 this utility, light switch kind of function, enabling function, 495 00:31:52,380 --> 00:31:55,650 some companies call it. That's not what it is anymore. And 496 00:31:55,650 --> 00:31:58,830 that's why we have the tagline, innovate beyond efficiency, 497 00:32:00,210 --> 00:32:03,210 because we hear so often, you know, people that think, Oh, 498 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:06,450 we're fine. You know, our system is actually fairly efficient. 499 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,960 And so I challenge that, you know. And similarly, it's not 500 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,310 all about that. If that's all you're settling for and you're 501 00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:18,090 telling your head of IT, good job, because we're efficient, 502 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,870 you're missing it. You're really missing it. In 2024 you were 503 00:32:21,870 --> 00:32:25,770 missing it even in 2015 by the way, in some industries more 504 00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:30,420 than others, but in 2024 it's every industry. If you're not 505 00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:34,440 thinking about AI, if you're not thinking about you know, what 506 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,800 deals did we miss? What transactions or revenue did we 507 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,270 miss? Where technology would have been a difference maker, 508 00:32:43,050 --> 00:32:47,130 and if your head of IT is not at the table, even asking those 509 00:32:47,130 --> 00:32:49,800 kind of questions or leading those kind of discussions, you 510 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,770 have the wrong person, or maybe they're good at what they do, 511 00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:57,270 but you don't have the right person in the room. And so yeah, 512 00:32:57,270 --> 00:33:02,340 it's a hard question for companies that have a director 513 00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:05,820 of IT. For example, we see a lot of this person's been there for 514 00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:09,480 over a decade, maybe homegrown, right? Came up from a help desk. 515 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,760 Everybody loves them. They know where all the bodies are buried. 516 00:33:11,790 --> 00:33:15,510 They're running everything. And I always say that's great, but 517 00:33:15,510 --> 00:33:17,730 you know what that means? They haven't seen anything else for 518 00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:21,540 the last 10 plus years, except for your shop. I don't know if 519 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:24,570 that's great. I think it's probably not great. So what 520 00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:27,720 about the value of someone, even as a sounding board to that 521 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,010 person, to expose them to what's working for other organizations? 522 00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:36,720 Other ideas, new ideas, things that are now feasible, possible, 523 00:33:36,750 --> 00:33:42,180 affordable, that were completely impossible or impractical, even 524 00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:46,860 just two, three years ago, they need to know about that, and not 525 00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:50,460 just from going to a conference and hearing some, you know, 526 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,720 talking head at the podium, someone that they're going to 527 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960 hear it from, someone who's taken the time to get familiar 528 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,740 with their company and Their platform as it is, to really 529 00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:05,520 know what's possible and what the next steps might be. So our 530 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,030 answer is, of course, yes, there is a size. I said earlier. 531 00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:12,480 There's a size where we just would kind of turn away, or 532 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,210 we'll say, look, Sign us up for an advisory thing, and let us 533 00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:18,960 just be sort of the idea person for a while. And let's try that 534 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,370 for a few months, four hours a week, very cheap, like, you 535 00:34:23,370 --> 00:34:27,540 know, $1,000 a week. Think about to bring in this next level of 536 00:34:27,540 --> 00:34:29,820 expert that's been around the block that you're trying to go 537 00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:33,750 around multiple times. And let's just see, and maybe the ideas 538 00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:37,260 are valuable enough, and we size it right, that your person can 539 00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:40,200 take the ball and run with it. And all they needed was a little 540 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,740 perspective. Maybe they're not capable. Maybe they're really 541 00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:47,220 strong on infrastructure and operations, but they're they 542 00:34:47,220 --> 00:34:51,210 just don't understand the concepts around systems, data 543 00:34:51,210 --> 00:34:55,170 and analytics. Maybe we need to mentor them. Maybe we need to 544 00:34:55,170 --> 00:34:58,380 supplement them in some way. Or maybe you need us as a virtual 545 00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:02,670 CIO for a very small number of hours a week, and this director 546 00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:05,670 of IT can report to them. That's a long answer to that question, 547 00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:09,510 I know, but it that's sort of the conversations that we have 548 00:35:09,810 --> 00:35:13,500 when people are skeptical that that they need someone because 549 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,100 our IT is okay, our stuff works. You know, we're not crashing. I 550 00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:20,610 think we're better than than most like, if that's all you 551 00:35:20,610 --> 00:35:23,010 think it's about. You're missing it. 552 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,210 Keith Hawkey: It's probably technology and the vendors that 553 00:35:26,210 --> 00:35:29,750 are in the space and the new tech. It's only getting more and 554 00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:35,240 more complicated every year that passes. It's 2024 today. I can 555 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:40,520 imagine organizations being able to get by easier a decade ago or 556 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,630 two decades ago, with the on premises infrastructure, they're 557 00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:50,390 not changing as rapidly as they are today, but in the modern 558 00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:56,600 organization, you need a dynamic CIO who not only is great in 559 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,640 their own capacity, but has the network to keep up, which is a 560 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,460 lot of what Opkalla does. This is, this is what we do on a day 561 00:36:04,460 --> 00:36:09,470 to day basis. We our team engages the the marketplace of 562 00:36:09,470 --> 00:36:13,100 vendors. We have over 1000 are in our portfolio that we 563 00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:17,690 evaluate, and it's a full time job to keep up with, who's 564 00:36:17,690 --> 00:36:21,620 bought, who, who's good at what, what you know, what what 565 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,890 services are should we avoid for now? How are organizations going 566 00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:30,290 about their digital transformations? What are some 567 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,620 stories that we can learn from? It's it's that it's about 568 00:36:33,620 --> 00:36:35,930 building that network. Like you said, it was more and more 569 00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:38,330 important today than ever before. 570 00:36:38,750 --> 00:36:42,800 Jeff Roberts: I mean, the value of a consultant is what they've 571 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,360 seen and what they know, and this fractional world really 572 00:36:47,390 --> 00:36:51,740 empowers that even more, because at the same time, they are 573 00:36:51,740 --> 00:36:55,340 seeing multiple clients and dealing with multiple 574 00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:58,400 challenges, and they have some things working really well, but 575 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,010 not others, and so they can leverage those things that are 576 00:37:01,010 --> 00:37:05,570 working well and lessons learned with another client, not in the 577 00:37:05,570 --> 00:37:08,570 secret sauce sort of form, obviously, but, you know, 578 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,680 understanding the right tools, vendor partners, processes, 579 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,510 methodologies, that that stuff is all applicable. And you're 580 00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:20,150 right when you say it's changing. It's changing faster 581 00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:24,770 than ever. It's accelerating the pace of change, which is really 582 00:37:24,770 --> 00:37:30,440 scary. And, you know, we try to use that to encourage people to 583 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,640 act now, because it changes never been faster than it is 584 00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:38,990 right now, and it'll never be this slow again. And that is, 585 00:37:39,020 --> 00:37:43,160 that is a daunting but it's it's been so true. I mean, looking 586 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,290 back on 2020 What a shock and change that was. I mean, think 587 00:37:48,290 --> 00:37:54,680 about 2023 2024 what's happening with AI is more disruptive than 588 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,520 what happened with the pandemic and having to close. And you 589 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,780 know, in some ways, because it's the difference between survival 590 00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:07,400 and failure of more organizations. It's just It's 591 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,020 shocking. So if ever consulting made sense, it makes sense in 592 00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:15,830 2024 I have a biased opinion, obviously, but I feel the same 593 00:38:15,830 --> 00:38:19,370 about your services. You know, this guidance of who should we 594 00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:22,880 really be looking at and just help, maybe on like, what are 595 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,490 the finalists that we should consider for this sort of 596 00:38:25,490 --> 00:38:28,730 solution? The value of that has never been higher. 597 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,060 Aaron Bock: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the message that 598 00:38:31,060 --> 00:38:35,020 both Innovation Vista would would say to a customer and 599 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,470 Opkalla, you know, is, don't, don't go at things alone. And 600 00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:41,140 you know, from from talking to you during this time, and 601 00:38:41,140 --> 00:38:44,080 hopefully some of the listeners are getting ideas, even if it's 602 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,840 a small engagement, just as an idea session versus a full VCIO, 603 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,630 like, don't go at projects alone. And I would say, we see 604 00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:55,900 the same thing. We see people who are taking on and it's good. 605 00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:59,230 They're saying, hey, we want to innovate. We want to transform. 606 00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:02,350 Okay, great. But like you said, if you've never done it, you've 607 00:39:02,350 --> 00:39:05,230 been an organization. Where you've never had to. Doing it on 608 00:39:05,230 --> 00:39:08,110 your own can be a daunting task. You don't need to do that. 609 00:39:08,110 --> 00:39:10,480 There's folks like you out there, there's folks like us out 610 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,190 there, engage and ask like because we've seen it 100 times, 611 00:39:15,250 --> 00:39:19,240 1000 times, 10,000 times. You, you, you all too. And so just 612 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,510 like as children, we rely on our parents to share, share with 613 00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:25,690 their experiences of life, so that we don't follow in the same 614 00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:29,230 traps. It's the same thing in this space. So I appreciate your 615 00:39:29,260 --> 00:39:33,400 perspective. I have one final question, and I think Keith will 616 00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:37,060 wrap up here, but you know, in the in the traditional thought 617 00:39:37,060 --> 00:39:40,480 of a CIO, and I think this is more, I would say this is more a 618 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,780 thought of the past, but I think people still sometimes feel this 619 00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:47,050 way. You mentioned the utility versus the the actual business 620 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,500 officer, which I think it really is, but risk is always really 621 00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:52,900 interesting when you think of the CIO role. CIOs are 622 00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:57,100 responsible for systems that have to be up cybersecurity that 623 00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,490 has to protect and so in a typical organization where the 624 00:40:00,490 --> 00:40:03,430 CIO is there, they sometimes can fall as a scapegoat with risk. 625 00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:07,630 If it's you know, it happens. How does risk work with VCIO? 626 00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:11,890 And how do you guys handle risk and manage risk as VCIOs for 627 00:40:11,890 --> 00:40:12,820 organizations? 628 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,020 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, it's a great question. And ultimately, the 629 00:40:16,020 --> 00:40:21,390 VCIO versus a full time CIO is a great answer to that question 630 00:40:21,630 --> 00:40:25,530 for organizations that feel like they have risks, they don't have 631 00:40:25,530 --> 00:40:29,100 the expertise in the building to know how to navigate them, and 632 00:40:29,100 --> 00:40:33,000 so they're trying to make it work with middle managers or 633 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,400 vendor relationships or what have you. The VCIO allows you to 634 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:45,810 tap into 100% of that expertise for a fraction of the cost. And 635 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,570 that's another one of our taglines. I love that, but it's 636 00:40:48,570 --> 00:40:53,250 so true because you're you're not needing 40 hours a week of 637 00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:56,400 someone's time to turn the crank on some machine run some 638 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,180 process. It isn't about that. The highest leverage functions 639 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:06,690 of an IT leader is the strategy, the architecture, the culture, 640 00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:12,090 negotiating your agreements and setting the standard for 641 00:41:12,090 --> 00:41:15,900 processes and operations. You don't need to run it. You need 642 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:20,190 to make those key decisions in a very wise way with your eyes 643 00:41:20,190 --> 00:41:23,940 open towards the risk. To your point, you know you don't have 644 00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:26,550 to, you don't have to hit all risks. You need to be aware of 645 00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:32,160 them. And so a lot of this comes down to that, that experience 646 00:41:32,190 --> 00:41:36,870 and the awareness of the landscape of, you know, threat 647 00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:42,120 vectors on a cyber security basis, stability. You know you 648 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,990 can design things like a hospital or like NASA, if you 649 00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:52,440 want triple redundancy in every possible system and requirement, 650 00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:54,690 you're going to spend an awful lot of money doing that, though. 651 00:41:54,990 --> 00:41:58,920 So understand, like a business impact analysis, sort of mindset 652 00:41:58,950 --> 00:42:02,010 of, okay, what are these risks? What would happen if this 653 00:42:02,010 --> 00:42:04,470 occurred? Really, what's the likelihood and what's the 654 00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:10,170 impact, and making a commercial decision about those things? So 655 00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:12,930 if something bad happens, and you've gone through that 656 00:42:12,930 --> 00:42:16,590 analysis, and you say, look, that it's okay, the solution to 657 00:42:16,590 --> 00:42:20,730 avoid that would have cost us more than it's getting ready to 658 00:42:20,730 --> 00:42:24,360 cost us to just go fix it so it's all right. We made that 659 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,870 purposeful decision six months ago or whenever, that makes 660 00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:31,500 people feel so much better, versus being hit with someone 661 00:42:31,770 --> 00:42:36,300 being hit with something that no one saw coming right your middle 662 00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:39,510 manager or your vendor didn't ever come to your leadership 663 00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:42,900 team and say, you know you need to be aware that there's a 664 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:48,930 certain percentage possibility of x, and if x happens, you know 665 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,910 here, here's going to be your impact. Just knowing and 666 00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:57,270 navigating that, again, in a commercial mindset, very ROI 667 00:42:57,270 --> 00:43:01,650 mindset, that's another value proposition of getting that 668 00:43:01,650 --> 00:43:06,810 expertise of someone who's been around that block. And I feel 669 00:43:06,810 --> 00:43:09,000 like there are a lot of smart people in middle management, so 670 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,680 I don't say middle manager is a derogatory it just means that 671 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,290 they're they probably are limited in what they've been 672 00:43:16,290 --> 00:43:20,250 exposed to. You know, people come up the IT career ladder, 673 00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:24,720 generally one side or the other, right? It's IT, and operations, 674 00:43:24,750 --> 00:43:28,410 cyber security, maybe. And then it's systems programming, 675 00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:32,580 project management, data and analysis. And that's 676 00:43:32,580 --> 00:43:35,850 oversimplifying significantly. But you know, you have a middle 677 00:43:35,850 --> 00:43:38,730 manager. They're they're still on their way up that ladder. 678 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,330 They know one side of it. To some extent, they're probably 679 00:43:42,330 --> 00:43:46,170 completely blind on the on the other side of the ladder, and 680 00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:50,400 that's a risk that, you know, a lot of organizations just should 681 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,340 not be running. And unfortunately they are. 682 00:43:53,550 --> 00:43:56,100 Keith Hawkey: Those are wise words, Jeff, that is, I think 683 00:43:56,100 --> 00:43:59,070 that's why they call you legendary. I'm not mistaken. 684 00:43:59,490 --> 00:44:03,390 Jeff Roberts: Every day to drive value, where people think that, 685 00:44:03,390 --> 00:44:06,570 but we've got a long way to go to where I think this thing 686 00:44:06,570 --> 00:44:10,230 could be, but it's been a fun ride so far I will say. 687 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,320 Keith Hawkey: We typically like to close with a question, but I 688 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,770 have two questions actually to ask you, one serious and one 689 00:44:16,770 --> 00:44:21,360 less so. The first one more serious, if you could open a 690 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,210 billboard everywhere in the world and only IT leaders could 691 00:44:24,210 --> 00:44:27,720 see it, what message would you want to impart upon them? 692 00:44:27,780 --> 00:44:29,580 Jeff Roberts: You know, I'm going to go back to that theme 693 00:44:29,580 --> 00:44:32,730 of it's not just about efficiency. You got to go beyond 694 00:44:32,730 --> 00:44:36,600 lights on. You got to go beyond efficiency. You really need to 695 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,410 empower the entire business model and transform it. Digital 696 00:44:40,410 --> 00:44:44,460 Transformation is not just installing video conferencing 697 00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:49,920 and collaboration software. It isn't it's re envisioning the 698 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:55,110 entire business model of an organization in light of what is 699 00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:58,410 now, recently become possible with technology. I don't know if 700 00:44:58,410 --> 00:45:00,810 that fits on a billboard. You know? The innovate beyond 701 00:45:00,810 --> 00:45:04,170 efficiency, tries to capture that whole concept in one catch 702 00:45:04,170 --> 00:45:09,000 phrase, but I it's more of a problem with IT leaders than it 703 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,900 is with business leaders, and it's the way we're trained. And 704 00:45:13,050 --> 00:45:18,300 there's all kinds of reasons why that is, but it's sad and it's 705 00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:21,780 career limiting for a lot of these very smart people that if 706 00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,660 they just realize there's more to it, they shouldn't be getting 707 00:45:24,660 --> 00:45:27,720 an A plus grade if all they're doing is keeping the lights on, 708 00:45:27,750 --> 00:45:32,190 go in and talk to the CFO. Go in and talk to the CRO understand 709 00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:35,520 what's happening in your organization and where IT can 710 00:45:35,550 --> 00:45:36,240 move the needle. 711 00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:38,490 Aaron Bock: Well, good thing is there's digital billboards out 712 00:45:38,490 --> 00:45:41,730 there now with our modern so we'll put that on, like one of 713 00:45:41,730 --> 00:45:45,150 those digital billboards where it just scrolls, and hopefully 714 00:45:45,150 --> 00:45:48,000 you're, you're stopped at a park, light, stop light to read 715 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,240 it. But great, great advice. I agree with you 100%. 716 00:45:51,630 --> 00:45:54,540 Keith Hawkey: Or if we want to target Gen Z, we'll just use 717 00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:55,080 emojis. 718 00:45:55,110 --> 00:45:57,060 Aaron Bock: Right. We'll convert it. 719 00:45:59,010 --> 00:46:01,980 Keith Hawkey: My less serious question before you depart, do 720 00:46:01,980 --> 00:46:04,020 you funny follow any sports teams? 721 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,980 Jeff Roberts: Yeah, I live in Houston, so we the Astros just 722 00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:13,050 clinched yesterday, the the Al West division. And Texans are 723 00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:14,940 fun to watch right now as well. 724 00:46:14,990 --> 00:46:19,370 Keith Hawkey: So imagine your favorite sports team, could be a 725 00:46:19,370 --> 00:46:23,930 concert, anywhere you're in a stadium. The best venue, the 726 00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:29,270 championship of this experience, you get to go watch best seat in 727 00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:34,910 the house. But there's a chance a couple 1000 of the viewers 728 00:46:35,810 --> 00:46:40,370 during this event get sucked into a black hole. Would you go? 729 00:46:40,910 --> 00:46:42,770 Jeff Roberts: Wow. What's the chance? 730 00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:44,220 Keith Hawkey: Say, 5% chance. 731 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,250 Jeff Roberts: Oh, five is way too high. No, no. 1% is long. 732 00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:53,120 Light life is too long of a journey for sports to sort of 733 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,530 jump up to that level. I enjoy it, but it's entertainment at 734 00:46:57,530 --> 00:47:01,610 the end of the day, right? It's not worth taking me away from my 735 00:47:01,610 --> 00:47:06,380 grandchildren or being able to see you know, two of my kids are 736 00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:10,250 married, two are not yet married. Yeah, no, nothing is 737 00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:14,570 going to jump up to that level of risking losing that. 738 00:47:14,630 --> 00:47:17,270 Keith Hawkey: An all too practical answer, Jeff. Where 739 00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:18,260 can people find you? 740 00:47:18,290 --> 00:47:21,800 Jeff Roberts: So our website is innovationvista.com there's a 741 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:27,020 Contact Us form available on every page. I'm very active on 742 00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:31,730 LinkedIn as well. Post nearly every day and really enjoy 743 00:47:31,730 --> 00:47:34,850 collaborating and reading what other people are doing. There's 744 00:47:34,850 --> 00:47:38,510 so many smart people out there that put out great content on 745 00:47:38,510 --> 00:47:41,990 LinkedIn. There's some spam as well. But yeah, there's enough 746 00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:44,780 value there that I'm there frequently. We'd love to hear 747 00:47:44,780 --> 00:47:48,380 from people, anyone who just wants to to chat. You know, 748 00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:53,840 there doesn't need to be some kind of virtual CIO engagement 749 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,930 in the offering. I'm happy to have a call just to talk about 750 00:47:56,930 --> 00:47:58,610 these things because I love the topic. 751 00:47:58,610 --> 00:48:00,950 Keith Hawkey: Well, that's certainly clear. Thank you 752 00:48:00,980 --> 00:48:04,250 immensely for joining the IT Matters podcast. I certainly 753 00:48:04,250 --> 00:48:08,210 learned a lot about your side of the business, and we really 754 00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:13,280 appreciate you being a guest, and we'll add in the show notes 755 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,020 how to get a hold of you. So thank you again. 756 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,210 Jeff Roberts: Well, thank you. Really appreciate it. Enjoyed it 757 00:48:17,210 --> 00:48:17,630 today. 758 00:48:17,810 --> 00:48:19,520 Aaron Bock: Thank you for listening, and we appreciate you 759 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,850 tuning into the IT Matters Podcast. For support assessing 760 00:48:22,850 --> 00:48:25,910 your technology needs, book a call with one of our Technology 761 00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:31,940 Advisors at opkalla.com. That's opkalla.com. If you found this 762 00:48:31,940 --> 00:48:34,940 episode helpful, please share the podcast with someone who 763 00:48:34,940 --> 00:48:37,490 would get value from it and leave us a review on Apple 764 00:48:37,490 --> 00:48:41,240 Podcasts or on Spotify. Thank you for listening and have a 765 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:41,960 great day.