Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's [00:01:00] Center for Autism and Theology, which we s- which we shorten to CAT. If you would like to access the transcript for this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. Today, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Lizzie Peach, who is one of our PhD researchers at the center.

And Lizzie is kicking off our autism and sacred text series with a discussion about autism and reading and interpreting the Bible. Um, so Lizzie, I wonder if you could start by introducing yourself and sharing a bit about your research that you've done into autism and the Bible.

Lizzy: Hi, I'm Lizzie, and yeah, as Zoe said, I'm a PhD student at the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen. Um, and I'm researching the experiences of autistic Christians from evangelical churches in the UK of putting their Christian beliefs into practice in their day-to-day lives. So what it's like to live out, uh, the Christian faith as an autistic Christian.

Um, [00:02:00] this started when I did a master's in autism spectrum at Sheffield Hallam University. Um, and as part of that, I undertook a research project exploring the experiences of autistic Christians of faith, worship, and community in evangelical churches in the UK. And one of the themes that, uh, I created from the data from those interviews was doing the Christian life wrong, um, which was something that, um, all my participants spoke about in different ways.

So the idea that they felt, uh, they were somehow failing to put into practice their beliefs as they thought they should, or as their churches thought they should, and how this was linked to the fact they're autistic. So my current research very much comes out of that. Um, I'm again interviewing autistic Christians, again from evangelical churches, um, about their experiences of living the Christian life.

Um, and I'm also coming to this conversation as an autistic Christian myself, um, with a lifelong interest in and love for the Bible as God's Word. Um, even as a very young child, I was a committed follower of Jesus, and a big part of that has always been, uh, reading the Bible, learning about the Bible, and hearing God [00:03:00] speak to me through the words of the Bible

Zoe: Thanks so much for sharing that, Lizzy. I think it's really interesting hearing. I did an episode recently on dyslexia and engaging with the Bible, and just that idea of kind of feeling like you're not doing things right in the Christian faith. It comes up again and again when we talk about neurodiversity and theology.

Um, and yeah, it's such an interesting point. Um, but yeah, so Lizzy, you've been kind of researching recently, um, autism and the Bible, and I wondered if there's anything in particular that stood out from you related to this topic. And yeah, if you wanna share a little bit more about that.

Lizzy: Um, yeah, so I guess at the moment I've just been interviewing some autistic Christians about their experiences of faith.

So, um, there's a few observations I can make, you know, just from that initial, um, listening to those interviews and starting to process them about how these participants were engaging with the Bible. Um, [00:04:00] and I think it's already really clear that my data will reflect both the commitment to the Bible that's characteristic of evangelicalism in the UK, and also how being autistic shapes that engagement with and commitment to the Bible.

Um, so that comes out in a couple of ways. So for example, a number of people taking part, uh, like me pro- probably have what would be described as a special interest in the Bible. So reading the Bible, reading Bible commentaries, collecting Bible commentaries, uh, maybe learning Greek or Hebrew to study the Bible, the original languages.

Um, some of them were in Christian ministry, but that's probably grown out of their engagement with the Bible. Um, uh, that's been there for a lifelong kind of interest, um, and a desire to spend their more time learning about it and talking to other people about it. Um, so some of my participants talked about how some special interests come and go over the years, uh, but their love for reading and studying the Bible has sort of remained undiminished.

Um, and they kind of feel it was i- inexhaustible in terms of being able to learn more, [00:05:00] go deeper, richer, see more cond- connections. Um, or also had people talking about their kind of real sense of joy as they're immersed in the Bible or wrestling to try and understand it or teach it. Um, and yeah, other participants sort of related this also to talking about how they feel that being autistic helps them to go just that little bit deeper in understanding the Bible, and particularly thinking about how it applies to their, uh, daily lives.

So that was one thing that I've sort of started to see with my autistic participants. Um, another thing I've, I've sort of noticed is a really strong sense of the Bible as normative, um, both in kind of explicit statements about the Bible and also really implicit in how the participants talked about the way the Bible affects their Christian life.

So you have some people talk about their real confidence in the Bible as God's word and reliable, though some of them are more wrestling with that, but probably the majority were talking about their real confidence in it. Um, but also in the way that people talked about how they, um, thought about their Christian life in other ways.

So, um, particularly when they're [00:06:00] critical of practices or actions they saw in their churches that they don't feel align with what the Bible says. So I think one really interesting example of this was, um, one participant who found that there's a particular song at church really difficult to sing because it What it, the song was expressing didn't resonate with how she was feeling, and how she felt she couldn't really sing the song and mean it.

And she was really troubled by this. But eventually she decided the problem was not how she was feeling, um, but with the content of the song. And her argument was that the song didn't reflect what the Bible says. Um, or in a similar example, another participant talking about how they're really struggling with, um, expectations and pressures placed on them by other people, and find that really difficult to cope with.

But also wanting to live a sacrificial life as a Christian, and really struggling with how they felt about that. Um, and again, sort of wrestling with that over quite a long time, concluding that the problem lay with people misapplying these ideas of sacrifice from the Bible, and sort of using that to place burdens on other [00:07:00] people, rather than seeing it as a call to individuals to make sacrifices themselves for the sake of others.

And again, it was kind of wrestling with that mismatch between what they experienced and what they felt they were expected to feel. But turning to the Bible to shed light on that, turning to the Bible to say, "Help me make sense of the rights and wrongs of this situation." And that's just a couple of examples, but that's the kind of thing that kept coming up.

Um, and I guess it's a combination of a very high view of the Bible, um, and perhaps an autistic tendency just to keep on wrestling with something until that tension's resolved, without letting it go. Um, and I guess that's a position I share with my participants as well, and it really, it's very hard to let something go because it really, really matters to you that you're not ignoring what the Bible teaches.

But if you're worried that how you feel or how you're responding to a situation is wrong, then that's difficult. But again, I found participants actually felt that tension was relieved or resolved by a more careful examination of what the Bible actually says. Um, but I think [00:08:00] also in a similar way that this kind of normative view of the Bible also was reflected not just in how they saw other people handle the Bible, but looking at their own lives as well.

So a lot of honesty about how they didn't feel their Bible, um, their lives lived up to what the Bible teaches. Um, and very much using the Bible as a measure of whether or not they had the right priorities in life, and so on. 

Zoe: Yeah. It's so fascinating hearing about your data and just the things you found.

Um, it really... What really struck out to me, um, we've just, when we're recording this, it's like yesterday, but when this is released, it'll be like two weeks ago, we had our CAT Chat episode where we launched this series. And, um, we spoke about a listener quest- a listener who had sent in a question basically saying, like, um, people were telling her she'd misinterpreted things in the Bible, and like how do you kind of line up when, like, you're interpreting something, um, differently.

And I just find it really interesting what you're saying about that participant with the song, that [00:09:00] she felt she couldn't sing it because it didn't apply to her faith or, um, the kind of misapplying of scripture to things. And it's such an interesting thing when we talk about neurodiversity because I think it can...

Our conversation kind of, we had conversations around how difficult it can be for neurodivergent people when you're told like, "Oh, you're interpreting that wrong," or like, "Your interpretation's clashing." Because so often these songs or sermons or whatever else are written by neurotypical people or, like, people who think in a certain way.

And then that can be really hard when it's like, "Well, I don't think this is the case, but everyone's telling me this is true." And just that idea of wrestling with these things, I think, is, um, so important. And, um, yeah, I was just really struck by what you said there, um, with that. Um, I wonder, do you have any examples of like how participants wrestled with scripture?

Like, what did they do to kind of, um, you kinda said, like, the [00:10:00] tendency not to let things go. Um, yeah, I wonder what kind of processes participants use to get to a kind of better understanding for themselves or, um- 

Lizzy: Yeah. I'm not sure anybody told me about the- Right ... particular process that they went to, but it just was a sense of it taking the time- Yeah

of kind of sitting with it and trying to work out what is the problem, what is the case, until gradually kind of, um, over time, reflections kind of coming to a, a better understanding. Um, and yeah, and seeing the Bible as a really positive, um, help- Mm ... to them in kind of negotiating that. 

Zoe: Yeah. Well, it's fascinating.

Thanks for sharing that about your data. Um, yeah, I'm sure everyone's now so excited to see, read more when it's, um, published. But, um, Lizzie, I know you've been thinking a lot about how we apply the Bible to thinking about autism. Can you tell me a bit more about your approach to that and what you've been kind of thinking along those lines?

Lizzy: Yeah, sure. So I think, um, [00:11:00] s-some approaches to thinking biblically about autism have been a bit problematic, um, and I think often this comes from a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of autistic experience. So in the kind of worst cases, you end up describing autistic people as a, "We are barely human," and then applying the Bible narrative becomes wholly about autism as an intrusion into the world, and the Bible is only relevant in terms of talking about healing or autism being wiped away in the new creation.

And if you hold a very high view of scripture, as I do, as God's word, then y-you want to take it seriously, and you begin to doubt if it's legitimate as a Christian to come to a different understanding of autism and the place of autistic people in God's world. So in terms of more positive approaches, um, I think I've been really helped by Grant Macaskill's chapter in, uh, his book, Autism in the Church, on how we approach the Bible as we consider autism.

Um, he sort of looks at a sort of nuanced, complex, Christ-centered approach to the Bible, uh, which sheds light on, um, how we think about autism a-and everything else really, and I, I found that really helpful. [00:12:00] Um, I also found, uh, John Frame's approach to epistemology in his big book, The Doctrine of God, has been really helpful to me in thinking about how to bring together what the Bible says and what we learn from research and from autistic people about autism.

So Frame describes the three perspectives, which are all interrelated, as the way in which God enables us to know about the world. Um, so the first is the existential perspective, which is the internal witness of the Holy Spirit as one means of revelation. Uh, the second is a situational perspective, which is the ability to understand the circumstances we're in, so general revelation.

Uh, and finally, Frame, uh, describes a normative perspective, which is understanding what God wants us to believe and to do by reading the Bible. And he sees these three perspectives not as being represented as sort of separate sources of knowledge, but as deeply interconnected. So the Spirit's internal witness is constantly directing us to God's Word and to how this may be lived out in the world, and the Bible is understood by the illumination of the Spirit, and it's only [00:13:00] possible to apply the words of Scriptu- to our situations, uh, both by the Spirit's work and by knowledge of those situations and circumstances gained from, uh, understanding the world in general revelation.

So I find that really helpful because I think sometimes our understanding of how the Bible speaks into autistic experiences, into our understanding of autism as a phenomenon, falls down because we're not attentive enough to the words of Scripture read in the context of the whole story of the Bible.

But sometimes I think our understanding fails because we do not properly understand autism or autistic ways of experiencing living in the world, and I think we need to do both of those really well to get a good understanding of the Bible and autism. 

Zoe: Yeah, I love that. I think just, like, understanding what autism means and with any neurodiversity is something that is, like, kinda jumped over sometimes when we talk about autism and church and faith.

It's like, um, I don't know, kind of people don't always take a [00:14:00] step back and think like, "Oh, maybe I should think about this." It's like kind of rushed to, "Oh, the Bible says this, this says this." But, like, it's a kind of like... I guess almost like what I'm hearing from what you're saying is, like, an invitation to slow down and kind of- Mm

like, ask difficult questions and, um, grapple with these things in a way that's respectful of both the Bible and individual experiences. And yeah, I think that's really interesting and really needed in the church. Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that though, Lizzie. Um, kind of thinking about that practically and, like, how we approach that in theology as Christians, um, can you give some examples of how we can apply the Bible to thinking about autism in the way that you've just described? 

Lizzy: Yeah, sure. So one of the things I've been trying to do and sort of just, you know, um, meditating on and thinking about a lot, is how we look at kind of the big story of the Bible from sort of creation to [00:15:00] new creation.

And see how some of these themes from particular parts of the Bible and consider these alongside what we understand about autistic experience of the world. So let me give you an example. Say, if we think about the Fall, so when we think about the Fall and autism, often we see people wanting to answer the question, is autism present in the world as a result of the Fall?

And some people say yes, because they see autism wholly in terms of disaster, and some people say no, 'cause they see autism as a different way of being and experiencing the world. And some people say there are good bits of autistic experience which are part of the original design of creation and the bad bits which are a result of the Fall.

Um, that's a slightly simplistic representation of the kind of different views. Um, and I would have lots of things to, to say to that. But I think rather than just answer that one question, I think if we sit with the biblical accounts of the Fall, so Genesis 3 account, which describe Adam and Eve rejecting God's rule and receiving the consequence of that, and the biblical explanations of that, how that works out.

So things like [00:16:00] Romans 5, and the description of how we're all born in Adam and under the reign of sin of death. I think about what that means, and also consider alongside this a kind of nuanced and rich understanding of autistic experience, we can end up with slightly more helpful insights or more to say.

So for example, instead of seeing the biggest problem faced by autistic people as, you know, autism, I would suggest that the Bible accounts would point to sin and death as a kind of shared experience that everybody faces as a much bigger problem. And this means that rather than seeing autistic people as those who need to be fixed because they're autistic, we recognize that those of us who are autistic fundamentally need to know God's grace and Jesus most of all.

Um, secondly, thinking about, um, in Christian families in particular, it's easy to see the behavior of autistic children mostly or wholly through the lens of sin. And I think it's vital to see autistic children are not more prone to sin than non-autistic children. Um, sure, the ways that th- those of us who are autistic, sin is likely [00:17:00] to show up in ways that reflect the fact that we're autistic, and actually the converse is true for non-autistic people.

But recognizing that we're all ali- alike under sin is helpful, partly 'cause it reminds us that God's grace and mercy are available to all of us as well. Um- Also, autistic people are often judged on their outward behaviour, and the biblical perspective helps us here, 'cause it's clear that having the social skills which enable you to cover up sin is not the same as not being sinful.

Um, and it should help us to be, I think, a bit more understanding of one another. Um, yeah, and think a little bit deeper about, um, our parenting of autistic children. And I guess the other side of that is maybe not using autism as an excuse for wrong behaviour, something which I think a lot of autistic people actually feel quite strongly about.

Because those of us who are autistic have moral agency, and we are responsible for our wrong actions, just like non-autistic people. It's just part of being human. And I think finally, the biblical picture of the kind of widespread effects of the Fall, in terms of the breakdown in [00:18:00] relationships between people and God, and the alienation that develops between people and spreads into destructive relationships that we see in those early parts of Genesis, is reflected in the horrific ways that autistic people have been marginalized and treated in society.

So we see the Fall as an explanation for what is wrong with autistic people primarily, but not what is wrong with how society treats autistic people. But I think we have a big problem with how we're reading the Bible. Um, so I think instead of using biblical accounts of the Fall to prop up a view of au- autism that's wholly negative, or to defend demeaning accounts of autistic people, I think properly attending to the bi- biblical accounts actually helps us to see those of us who are autistic as part of humanity, to be treated with understanding and compassion when we fail, uh, to be called to repentance and trust in Christ, just like everyone else.

And I think it also means that we need, uh, to collectively, I guess, grieve over the ways that autistic people have been harmed and hurt, and see this as one of the devastating ways, uh, that rejecting God's goodness has played out in the world. [00:19:00] So that's one way in which I think really attending carefully to the Bible and to autistic experience can be really helpful.

But I also think that in addition to that, um, so giving us better understandings of autism, I think we can see ways in which applying, um, the scriptures can be particularly encouraging for those of us who are autistic. So if you don't mind, I'll give another example. Um, so one of the questions that often comes up about autism is will there be autism in heaven or the new creation?

And it's a good question, and how we answer it matters. But I think just focusing on that one question can mean we miss how applying the hope of the new creation can be a real encouragement to those of us who are autistic in particular ways. So we've got this image of the new cr- Jerusalem in Revelation, the place where God dwells with His people, and it's a place where there's no more death or mourning or crying or pain.

Now, I've heard this applied to suggest there'll be no more autism in heaven because autism causes grief, and I don't think that's particularly helpful for all sorts of reasons. I'm not actually gonna talk about that [00:20:00] now, but instead I think- It's worth considering how this vision might be, um, particularly helpful, particularly encouraging to an autistic believer.

So thinking about the fact there's no more death, of course death is something that we'll all face, so no more death is good news for everybody who's a follower of Christ. But when we see that autistic people have lower life expectancy than non-autistic people, when autistic people are more vulnerable to facing death prematurely, or for all sorts of reasons, I think there's a, a particular joy in anticipating a place where there's no longer the case.

Um, or mourning and grief again are of course are common human experiences. No one who lives in the world escapes the hurts of the world, or the ways that we wound each other, or the pain of loss. But it's very common for autistic people to carry particular griefs, I think. So the grief of rejection, or social isolation, or loneliness.

Um, and autistic people do have meaningful relationships with people of course, but also experience many difficulties of [00:21:00] being misunderstood or unwanted. And I think a slightly different perspective on that same thing, uh, for many autistic people feel a really heightened sensitivity to griefs and emotions of others.

So might be quickly sensitive to an individual who's struggling, be overwhelmed by their feelings as well. Uh, for some autistic people, this, uh, hyper-empathy can extend to animals, uh, such as their pets, or even inanimate objects. So it can of course lead to autistic people being perceptive and caring, and that's a great thing, but it also is exhausting and difficult to manage.

Um, and a world without grief or mourning, but which is characterized by joy and praise, is a great thing to anticipate if you're sometimes kind of sunk by, uh, those, you know, emotions of other people that surround you as well. And I, I think that's just a brief example, and I think there's lots more you could say.

But I hope that gives a sense of how a more sensitive and nuanced attention to what the Bible says can help those of us who are autistic, and give us a better understanding of how we think about autistic experiences in terms of, um, what [00:22:00] God's word has to say. And maybe some picture li- you know, ways of applying the Bible into the lives of autistic people Yeah.

Zoe: This is so fascinating. I was, like, making so many notes while you were speaking, um, 'cause it's just so interesting. I think, like, it's... What I really, I guess what I'm picking up from what you're saying is it kind of, you were saying, like, the problem is how we're reading the Bible. It's like we're almost saying like, "Oh, we've got this, like, um, like, um..."

I, I'm aware that I'm saying the word problem, but no one can see that I'm, like, air quoting that on the audio recording. But, like, what's perceived as a problem and it's like, "Oh, how does the Bible then speak about this because we're facing this problem?" It's almost a kind of, like, proof text thing in some ways.

Whereas you're saying, like, actually, let's come to the text with, like, all our experiences, the context of the text, what we know about, for example, in Genesis, what we know about sin and the state of the world and, um, Christ's redemptive work, and [00:23:00] just coming not with fresh eyes, but I guess, like, a bigger horizon.

Is that kind of like- Mm ... um, yeah, what you're saying with how to approach these texts? 

Lizzy: Yeah, I think so. Just, I think what you're talking about slowing down as well, so not assuming we already know what the answer is when we come to the Bible. You know, if we believe it, the Bible is God's word, which I do, then I want to sit and listen to what it says carefully, rather than go with my preconceived kind of ideas of what it's gonna tell me about th- this thing that I may or may not know about.

So I think just kind of really sitting with a Bible and really saying, "What is, you know, what, what does the text actually say, and how does that, how does that resonate with the experience that, that we have?" Um, so how does the text help me interpret my experiences? It's not just saying, "I'm imposing my experience on the Bible."

I definitely wouldn't want to be coming from that perspective. But how does, how does the Bible help me to, to interpret and understand or be encouraged in the midst of the struggles that I'm having, or that I see, you know, other autistic people around me having? How can we really, um, you know, see that God speaks into those [00:24:00] situations as well?

Zoe: Yeah. So interesting. I think it's like, it's such a simple thing, I think, when you say it is not a complex way of kind of like you need like a theology degree or whatever to do it. But I think it's almost... I think there's so much beauty in that kind of like simple approach that is actually like, shouldn't be groundbreaking, but is.

And I think a lot of people want to do that and think they're doing it, but just kind of need to sort of like what you've kind of said, a like walkthrough of like, okay, well, here's how to address these passages. I think the other thing, um, I kind of quickly noted down, um, when you were speaking, just that idea of like, um, just focusing on the question, we miss the hope of, um, new creation.

I think like when you were speaking about when we just go to Genesis or whatever and like kinda... Or when we just go to the question of like, will there be autistic people in heaven, we're missing so much. And I think that's so beneficial [00:25:00] to these conversations that we have around autism and theology, that we're not just shying away from the realities of being neurodivergent, of being autistic or, um, whatever else.

That we're not kind of saying like, "Oh, it's all wonderful. Let's just like promote a very, very positive view of the autistic experience." Because as you said, like, um, caring so deeply for people and animals and, um, other aspects of creation is really wonderful, but that can come with exhaustion and a lot of demands.

And I think when we focus too much on the positive, we are then overlooking the entire experience because we want to paint a very nice picture. But then equally, it's not saying let's just focus on the negatives and it's, um... Yeah, I think it's all about centering autistic voices, isn't it? And that's really clear in what you've [00:26:00] shared.

A kind of final question sort of discuss how this might look in practice for other people. Um, are there any passages of scripture that you've found particularly helpful as an autistic person, um, that you've maybe approached in this way? 

Lizzy: Yeah, I think there are so many examples of how I found the words of scripture encouraging me, um, in all sorts of situations.

So what I'll talk about now is I've been particularly struck by the kind of tenderness and compassion shown by Jesus, and I find that really moving. So, um, one of my favorite passages, in Mark's gospel, we have this account of the feeding of the 5,000. But right at the start of the account, we have Jesus and his disciples absolutely exhausted by all their interactions with lots of people, and disappearing off in a boat to go to a quiet place and have some rest.

And as an autistic person who really, really needs quiet and rest quite regularly just to cope with the world, I really resonate with that. But then they [00:27:00] land in this boat, and there's a huge crowd of people who want to speak to Jesus, and he isn't grumpy, he isn't annoyed, he isn't frustrated with them.

Um- But instead he's filled with compassion for them, because they're like a sheep without a shepherd, and he teaches them. And I guess because I really resonate with that need for quiet and rest, that kind of act of compassion just feels really striking and really moving to me. And also, I kind of see myself as like, you know, one of the people who is like a sheep without a shepherd, and who needs the words of Jesus.

And the fact that he is patient, and he, um, is loving, and he's compassionate on people, all sorts of people, and, you know, particularly often feel like you're on the edge, or you can be a bit annoying or an inconvenience. Seeing that Jesus doesn't see you like that, I think it just, yeah, it just really shapes the, the way that you are in the world and the way you can live in the world.

Um, because, you know, I kind of feel that really positive way that Jesus engages with people and his compassion. [00:28:00] So that's something that particularly helps me, and I think probably some of those resonances are because I'm autistic as well. 

Zoe: Yeah. And I wonder how, like, kind of thinking of that, like, a step further, like, that resonates with you.

I wonder, like, what churches, like having these kind of readings of scripture and taking that passage, for example, I wonder how churches can then kind of like apply that, um, to autism and how we encounter autistic people in our churches that are maybe perceived as difficult . Like, how would you kind of, yeah, encourage churches to use passages like that? 

Lizzy: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it, it on numerous levels, say, in one sense, yeah, we do want to mirror Jesus' compassion and patience with people, and I find that a challenge as well. Um, and he's just, yeah, taking time with people and making, you know, helping them to feel that they are wanted and that, you know, being with them is, is something he wants to do is a wonderful thing to, to kind of want to imitate, isn't it?

But also I, I find, as a, an autistic person, like, actually, the challenge of Jesus [00:29:00] giving up his rest for the sake of serving others, and actually that's a really wonderful thing for me to think, "Actually, sometimes I need to do that." Sometimes I need to think what I really want is to go and be quiet, shut the door, and talk to absolutely nobody.

But I know that there is somebody who I could pray with or talk to or, uh, an email I could send that would encourage somebody or, um, you know, I could spend some time with, you know, my family and, and, you know, spend energy that I don't feel I have for their sake. And that's not just a, a burden, but as actually walking in the ways that Jesus walks.

And so that's a real encouragement to me that some of the costs are really good things, and Jesus understands that, and that's also helpful as well.

Zoe: Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think it's just kind of that, like, balancing of needs, isn't it? It's like- Mm ... well, like, we do need to attend to our needs, and, like, God does want us to do that, as we see in scripture. But then it is also that, like, modeling the example and, like, um, I suppose, like, gifting our time [00:30:00] for other people as well.

Mm. And yeah, and that can come at the expense of us. And it's like navigating how you do that without then burning out, but then also, like, yeah. Yeah, really interesting. Well, thank you so much, Lizzie. It's been so interesting to hear about your perspective, and I think this is definitely something that I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be very interested in hearing. Um, if you have a kind of particular passage as a listener that you, um, kind of resonates with you as an autistic person, that you read in a way that, um, resonates with your experience, send us an email if you wanna share that with us.

Um, we always love to hear your responses as our listeners. Um, and yeah, also just if you wanna say hi, or if you have any questions, you can message us at Autism Theology on X or Instagram or Facebook, or you can email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk.

[00:31:00] Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter @autismtheology. [00:32:00]