[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Don Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: and I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: You are indeed

[00:00:16] Pia: I am, when I last looked, I am. I'm lamenting a little bit because I just don't have a good book on my bedside table. 

[00:00:24] Dan: Maybe the book surviving a flood could be useful for you. I don't know if it exists, but you go, you could find a few handy manual. Yeah. Well, I I'm, I was given a book by Christmas called How to Be a Liberal. And to be honest with you, I'm about halfway through and I still don't know, really know what a liberal is, but it's an amazing exploration of thinking through the ages and how liberal thought is emerged. And it's got a, We Not Me touch to it actually is, which has been which has been quite educational for me.

[00:00:54] Pia: in what way? 

[00:00:55] Dan: Well, I one of the big, I've read about this in the book. One of the main sort of big bits of thinking about this was a book by John Stuart mill and his wife, Harriet Taylor, often not credited as per and but cork. Yeah, there's a separate topic. Let's don't even go there on my word. But but you know, but it called on Liberty and they were really talking about, they really examined low.

[00:01:17] Loads of different topics around this. And the bit that stuck out for me was about doubt actually. And it's the, just reading from the how to be liberal book at the heart of that thought was an astonishingly humble realization that there could be truth. In the words of someone you disagreed with.

[00:01:33] Sometimes it was just a trace element. Sometimes it was a sizeable chunk and that really jumped out for me actually in these. Complex, but also polarized times, you know, where we sometimes forced to take a side, pro-Brexit anti Brexit, you know, remainer, Brexiter, pre-vax, antibiotic, whatever it is, there's loads and loads of examples. And we are drawn to those sides, I think, but that idea of seeking truth in what other people are thinking really landed for me.

[00:02:01] Pia: And then, and the art of dialogue and being able to have a sort of a, to, to seek, to understand. 

[00:02:06] Dan: Yes indeed. 

[00:02:08] Pia: And to seek, to learn. Whereas I think we're, yeah, w we're taking these ambiguous and complex topics, and we're trying to distill them down into sort of short soundbites, which fit onto uh a Facebook comment, really when they are much more complex. And we don't really know the whole picture of anything really, but how interested are we? I that's of a muscle.

[00:02:34] Dan: Yeah. And particularly in these complex times and the time of uncertainty and actually it's a perfect time to hear our guest for today, Pia, James Prior, who's the head of talent leadership development at Gilliad Pharmaceuticals. And yeah he's, he's really spent a lot of time studying how humans and teams engage. How they can operate in times of complexity. So, I think he's really got something great to say for teams. So why don't we whiz over and hear what James has to say?

[00:03:06] James welcome to the show. It's great to have you.

[00:03:13] James: Well, thank you for inviting me, Dan and PA. It's great to it's great to be here. Super excited and looking forward to the questions and the topic.

[00:03:23] Dan: We're very much looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. But first of all, we have to talk to you a little bit. Well, here, we'll let you introduce yourself in a moment, but as you know, we start with our little card exercise. I have the tricky red cards, the medium orange cards, and then the easier green cards.

[00:03:40] Which one are you going to go for? James?

[00:03:42] James: Do you know what I'm going to go for the green, I'm going to break trends because I can only imagine everyone goes middle or top. Right. And I just got to play it safe then. Right. It says a lot about me or not.

[00:03:53] Dan: know exactly. I don't think I've ever seen you play at safe actually, but here we go. So I'm going to choose a card at random. And I'm going to ask you the oh, here we go. It's genuinely done at random. So this is my earliest memory is 

[00:04:06] Pia: Oh, that would be orange. That

[00:04:08] James: Yeah, I was going to stay. I'm not sure what the orange and the red would be down with a question like that. My earliest

[00:04:15] Dan: It's very true, actually. Yeah. That's

[00:04:17] James: I think my earliest memory was actually when I was about three, four years old, I think must've been about that. My Nan had a boxer dog called Timmy. And he typical boxer, I've grown up with boxes as pets and the children from when they're born to the moment, unfortunately pass away, they're just big kids. And he had this thing about that when I used to go to my Nan's, I'd sit on the step in her kitchen and he'd been in the garden and she'd opened the door and called Timmy and he come bounding in and he launch full pelt and push me to the floor and pin me down by my shoulders, cause he was super excited.

[00:05:01] Pia: Drool, Olivia

[00:05:03] James: completely, covered in in in kind of wet tongue. So, that's my,

[00:05:08] Dan: The beautiful doggy

[00:05:10] James: listeners are now saying it most probably explains a lot about James.

[00:05:15] Dan: I think it does shed some light I'm sure, but a beautiful doggy moment to start our our interview today and to James, just um, take us forward from that point a little bit. What took you from being licked by a boxer to being on the We Not Me show today. Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:31] James: so I guess my path to this moment in time I'm global head of leadership development. I've spent most of my career, in the world of leadership and talent, I guess, like, all of us went to school. I grew up in the initiative. Never assume that obviously, but I grew up in London, south, east London until I was in my teens. And then I moved down to Devin. And I grew up by the coast in north Devon. So I was very lucky, my parents bought a small holding farm. So that was great, growing up in that area. I went to boarding school, which I was very lucky. I actually, grew up playing loads of sports. So going to boarding school was absolutely fantastic for that. Then left there, college, university, and then into the world. 

[00:06:15] I started my career in um, pharmaceuticals and then I kind of, all the way through my career. Now, just over 20 years, I don't want to reveal too much my age. Obviously this is a podcast that people can't see my youthful 30 years old looks. Um, So I've worked in both pharmaceuticals, financial services, FMCG data and tech media technology, and then and then back into pharmaceuticals.

[00:06:42] Pia: Yeah, that is very fpr. For such a young looking man that is such a, an ex an experience career.

[00:06:48] James: Yeah. 

[00:06:48] Dan: You've packed it in.

[00:06:49] Pia: Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to answer, so I'm going to ask you like an orange type question around teams. So, so here's one, and I'm really interested to know what your viewpoint is.

[00:06:59] Teams seem in my humble opinion to be taken for granted so that this key unit that gets things done, but they've been underserved and undervalued in some respects, taken for granted. Is that just my viewpoint? Or is that something that you see from working across these large organizations and why might that be what's caused us to maybe get to this situation?

[00:07:23] James: Well, I think that's more of a red question. If I'm honest. We've got, we've gone heavy straight in there. I think I, it's a great question. I think you're right. I mean, my view is you're right. And I think it also depends, right. The classic, learning and development answer. It depends. And I, and the reason I say that is, I think it depends on the culture and the environment, not just in organizations, just generally of that nature of teams. So actually in many sporting world, I think it's fully utilized. I think in organizations it's often underutilized or, the attention's not paid because it's kind of it seemed through an organic gram structure, right? So you have a boss and then they have the teams. And there's the notion in many organizations that teams are hugely important. So familiar cap, from a category perspective, if I can speak properly and from a cognitive reasoning perspective, we understand the importance.

[00:08:20] I think the challenge is team are multifaceted and very different. And I think we then also really struggled to understand the role of the leader of the team. So, I've worked in many organizations where the conversation is that, the managers have so much to do. It's a classic phrase. And I think we lose sight of one of the key roles is to develop and build a team that delivers on the objectives of that particular team. And I think they get negated because. It's complex. And it's hard. Because it's individual people with lots of different diversity and personalities, trying to come together to solve things in complex environments.

[00:09:08] And so if we just ignore it a little bit, and we kind of do a bit of what we call team effectiveness, everything will be okay. But as we know here, it's not that case. And I think what happens is we get, we use excuses and avoidance from really facing the truth of the importance that teams play and the amount of effort that goes in to maintain the direction of that team and the wellbeing and just how they operate. And I think we get, we just get lost and we just make excuses, being honest.

[00:09:45] I've been in that position myself. I know how important they are. It's my job. But actually over time, you get distracted by other things you try and come back to the team, your agendas get packed. And then we forget the basic hygiene factors of maintaining that team.

[00:10:02] Dan: So James is the problem, partly the this, then this player coach role, we see so many team leaders while I'm leading this team, but I've still got a territory of my own or I've still got, a certain technical things I have to do myself. Is that part of the problem that you're saying that it's mixed? Did the team lead is not given enough space to actually lead the team. They've got this other role. That actually is the one that can't be, it can never be given up.

[00:10:26] James: Well, I think you hit it. It was a passion and interest of mine is I think it's about an identity, right? So we label things, team leader, and then we create a kind of a mismatch of what that means over the actual practical behavior of being that team leader. So I think what we create is this almost.

[00:10:49] View of, I have a title and then I have all of this day stuff, and I've always wondered in my whole career when, when leaders or organizations say our managers are so busy and I'm not disagreeing, they are so busy, but what's going on in the system that makes them so busy against the effectiveness of leading their teams.

[00:11:13] Now they are busy leading that team. But we know from all the data that there's mismatch on how effective those teams operate, because I think their identity is shed to them looking good. Right? It's about each of us in that pit, in that column or that pyramid looking good ourselves and maintaining our own identity and needs to ensure that we're okay.

[00:11:38] I think the nature of teams should be, cognitively, anyone who will listen to this understands this cognitively it's about for the greater good of the team. The humans aren't like that necessarily, right. We have our own floors, our own vulnerabilities, our own needs. And I think it takes a lot of individual work to understand your place and perspective of ensuring the success of that team by letting go of something in yourself.

[00:12:08] And I don't think we spend a lot of time in organizations looking through that lens. We almost manufacture forcing teams together to operate and we give them some tools and we kind of, every six months we'll do a value exercise and, great team effectiveness. Let's look at the objectives we're doing. And then we just ignore it for the next six months.

[00:12:28] And I'm not saying everyone does that, please. That's the far extreme, but when you come back into the middle of, the norms in many organizations, it's something that takes seconds. Right to everything else I meant to be doing, as you quite rightly said that I'm still wondering what this, everything else that we're meant to be doing is 

[00:12:48] Pia: well, I mean, it was interesting. I mean, we looked at some Squadify data and looked at the 37 questions that we ask and the number one. That was the highest scoring was focused on getting things done. And then the number 37 in terms of IM importance was strong, personal connections, and that was just that wasn't the present scores, that was the important scores. So something's really something that's exactly what you're saying. Really.

[00:13:16] James: think we're lost, that the, I think there's a. A bit of an identity crisis in many, you know, systems, people, et cetera, really what is the purpose I'm here to do? How do I maintain my own identity and need, but also I tried my best to ensure the team's okay.

[00:13:37] But there's a double dynamic there because actually in most organizations, there's a kind of pyramid some flatter than the others, but there is a hierarchical structure in every organization, either not by title, but by founder, there's a natural power divides that naturally exist in humans anyway, in an organizational structures. The problem is then you start, if you break that down, each of those people from the top down to the most individual contribute to the entry level, there's a need of them having an identity to prove their worth. And so actually within a team, there's all of those individuals that have the need to prove their worth as well as the leader of that team. And so there's a mismatch of communication and understanding. 

[00:14:24] And I'm not surprised that what I feel is the most important in your survey is at the bottom, and the one that we can feel comfortable and control is at the top, because there's never been enough control in this. As humans, we love to feel in control. The bits I can control is me delivering on a task. The emotions and stuff, and the connectivity and the team at a deep, personal level. It's unsettling for lots of people. I don't want to go there because actually I have to face some of those vulnerabilities in me.

[00:14:54] And this is, that was my point earlier to Dan's question. If we don't look at ourselves in the middle of this, and it's interesting how we often, visualize teams, the number of visuals, even in books, it's like a pyramid team leader. And then the people reporting in, I don't see very many times the leaders in the middle with the people around them, right?, because in the middle is the leader doing that work that has a bearing on the impact of how the other people interconnect and we, we tend to, even in our images draw stuff that is a bit constricting and not liberating from a visual perspective of how things operate.

[00:15:33] Pia: We found that to where they are in that hub and spoke model so that the manager is the central to all the individuals in their team. And they're not. And communicating without the

[00:15:46] Dan: with between each other. Yeah. There's no team. It's just a team leader to, it's just multiple one-on-one conversations.

[00:15:53] James: Yeah. And I think that, the challenge is, any of those drawings don't really give the subtlety of what's going on, right? So when we get with team effectiveness, books, again, cognitively, it all makes perfect sense. Right? It's nicely written and well-explained, and when you do this happens, the bit we fail to realize is that all of us are unique and we all have different belief, patterns, different stories, et cetera. So even you're right, even the hub and spoke model means that the leader becomes a conduit and there's sometimes not connectivity. Also that visual image could actually then lead to even increased power, right? So a hierarchical structure has power. Any kind of notion of diagram often then shackles to a power needs within individuals within that construct. And this is the big issue in the world, right? The power and need and control. And that, that's what makes this very hard.

[00:16:53] Dan: So it sounds like James you're putting a finger on this idea of identity and also what that means. So you I've got to get my job done. I've got to serve the team. I've got serve the organization. There are multiple tensions in that. Aren't that? That's reality. Isn't it? How can they go about moving away from that and away from absolutes, but to really keep that in balance, what's the, what's, what teams need to do?

[00:17:14] James: I think, th this is the, and if I ha you know, this is just my view. I mean, if I had the total answer, I would have written that book by now sold millions of copies, and we could be doing this podcast on a beautiful island somewhere. Right. But um, because I, I think we all have views and I think in the first piece, it's, there's no silver bullet, that's my first recommendation. There's no silver bullet of success, but there is about continuous practice and awareness of what's going on. And and but I think in the first instance it starts with. Me as an individual, I have to understand more about me. What makes me tick? The neon says of when I get a challenge from a team member within my team, how do I react to that? Am I shackled? But I should have all of the answers because I'm the team leader and that's the badge that I've been given. Or am I comfortable to say. Actually, I haven't got an idea. Let's have a go. I think that's a great recommendation.

[00:18:15] So I think in the new the kind of the world we currently face, I think that there's an element of actually symbiotic relationship of connectivity of my own, what we would often call, you know, In old parlance, brilliant self-awareness development and opening up of an individual. I think in the world that we find now that's critically important because it's a symbiotic relationship in the sense of, as I grow the people around me grow because as I become more aware of the blindness that I have about myself and open up, I allow the system to open up with me and better communication and connectivity. The ability to be vulnerable and say, I really don't know. I have a view and my view is most probably as good as anyone else's in this team right now. 

[00:19:03] And so I think the notion that's been around for hundreds of years of self-development is even more critically important, actually right now in a world that's incredibly complex where we're not solving problems, we're often managing polarities. We're often actually managing tensions. We're actually holding tension in the system to allow stuff that, things to emerge before making decisions. I think that notion of really understanding us is more critically important right now than it's been for a long time.

[00:19:35] I also think the other issue is we were shackled by a time of teams. When, in the 20th century, when there was linear projection, do this, do this, you do that. Pia, you're going to do that. And Dan you're going to do that, we'll come together. We'll make sure we get on and we'll achieve our objectives. The problem is when you add a layer of context into this in a world that's continuously adapting and we can't control. That's where the level of complexity has kind of shattered those old visions of both individual leaders, teams and just human connection. And I think we're in organizations beginning to see that tension between those things and the old models and ways of being aren't sufficient to allow us to operate in the new world.

[00:20:22] So my humble view and my starting piece is, is there an element of self work, and then the connectivity of how the leader responds and brings the team in. 

[00:20:34] I also think we used to set huge, three year strategies, right. Which is still very relevant, right? Because it's the direction of travel, but we have to allow flexibility in those things because the world changes. You know, our strategy that we set last year. Has it adapted, has it moved? And so the notion of even the construct of white team's come together to review has fundamentally changed. It's not about definitive concrete milestones. It's about data and insight. Are we close? Are we off? Do we need to re tweak our objectives? So even the nature of communication within teams it's fundamentally changed, but I still think we're trapped in an old way of point and give direction and then everything will be all right, because I feel okay because we've got clarity. 

[00:21:21] I was an it's interesting. I was talking to someone about this the other day. How uh, he work a lot with teams, the number of leaders I'm speaking to recently that keeps saying, I need more clarity myself as a leader and my team keep asking for more and more clarity. And I give them clarity, which I think is clarity. And they just ask for more. Because actually I think what they're asking for is certainty. They're not asking for clarity. At the moment, we all want certainty that we're going to be okay. In the changing dynamic, after a horrific, pandemic that's left its mark on humanity, people want certainty right now. Am I okay?

[00:22:01] And as leaders to Pia's beautiful point in your survey that, into that, that connectivity of understanding, am I okay at the moment is often lost because we get shackled by if I deliver I'm okay. But that doesn't work in the new world because what are you delivering?

[00:22:18] Dan: James, can you drill down a little bit on this clarity thing? Because clarity is really important to, to in our thinking. We've talked about it on the show quite a bit. It's obviously changed for this new world, because just the opposite in a way, if the opposite of clarity is oh, w you know, we don't know what we're doing, so just keep, that's ineffective as well, isn't it? So what does clarity look like in this world? It's a different, but what does it look like?

[00:22:42] James: yeah, I think, well, I think. There was an interesting piece just in, your question there, Dan, of, if we look like we don't know what we're doing, we're not okay. And so clarity is often a definitive action that if I do this, I get this. And that's, I think that's some of the challenge is that people want, certainty that if I do this, I get this, but that doesn't happen now. So for me, clarity is about actually reassurance that we are, we're going to head in this direction and we'll put milestones in place to see the emergence of what's going. So this is our target. This is what we want to achieve. That's still the same. But I think along that way, Clarity becomes pause, reflect and understand what are we seeing? What's the system telling us what are we making sense making of the system to allow us to tiller touch? Creates space of dialogue and understanding through the tension in the not solve it, but through that to allow it to be aired. For me that's clarity that we have the space to be able to have those conversations.

[00:23:53] Now, sometimes there is total certainty. If we do this, we will get this. Not everything is ambiguous in the world. And so which bits can, and that's another piece, which bits can we be very clear on, right? If this is our plan, which bits are really concrete, which bits aren't? Which bits are we just going to not worry about right now, okay? And we'll see what happens and does when we do this affect this, and what's the interconnectivity between those two things. Now that's hard for leaders who are being assessed on delivering concrete outcomes. 

[00:24:29] Now in state. Yeah, you have a target, right. And we're relating to that. And how do we break that target down, whatever we're selling. And you can give an element of clarity of direction. Even in the current world. When the context changes around your sales environment and you're off target, what do you do? You just push the team harder, work harder, and this will change? Because you can't control context. What you can control is narrative within the team to understand. And that's the, this dynamic of pressure that exists because we love that certainty, but that certainty often doesn't exist. And what do we do? We try and seek more certainty, but that's actually not possible. And it's our mind playing tricks on us constantly that we can, if we do work harder, we work more, we work more hours, we try even harder. And it's that self-fulfilling prophecy that actually just leads to burnout and many teams. 

[00:25:32] And so I think certainty and clarity intertwined, but clarity in a new world is being very clear, which bits we can be certain we can deliver right now in a period of time, which bits do we need emergence to form. So we create space to understand what's going on, and which bits do we just wait to see, right?. And actually just take some tension away from us. And so I think the word means the same, but the direction to get there is slightly different.

[00:26:05] Pia: And I also, I think infers that not only the role has changed for the manager, the team leader, but th but there's a different responsibility for the team members now. So with that change, you can't just sit and expect your team leader to give you that level of certainty and direction, because it needs to be adapted in the moment. But what else do you see about the team members? How else have they got to adapt and change it for the future?

[00:26:35] James: Yeah, I think it's, Hopsy brilliant insight. I think the prep, the mismatch of I can sit comfortably here because it's, my boss's responsibility is quite an interesting narrative. It's their responsibility, what? To deliver on your behalf to create the right climate, to hold a space of truthfulness, vulnerability, openness, dialogue, all of these, but what's your part in it?

[00:27:03] So I have a role to support my manager or my boss because I'm as culpable as they are. So if I keep asking for something, but I'm not giving anything, how does that work? And I think you raise a really interesting point of again, when it was when we had lots of certainty and almost the boss can say, you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this, and we'll have a check-in and make sure you're on target for your objectives, then I think that was easier, right? Cause I could not take my foot off the gas, but I kind of was okay. Cause my boss had me. Right. That was okay. Now though, when we, my boss hasn't got that certainty themselves, how do I play my part and my dynamic needs to change. And how do I understand, which was a part of the conversation earlier, me? What's my need, what am I blind to? What am I doing? That's putting pressure on my boss? And then I'm blaming my boss because they're not leading me. 

[00:28:07] And I think this is my point of that symbiotic relationship. I think the needs of openness and honesty. What do I have to give up in me to allow this team to operate? Not just my boss, but my peers around me is an interesting dynamic. What do I have to give up in myself, that power, the control, this need to be right? Whatever it is, that's, important in you, that's affecting your ability to really integrate within that team, you have to investigate it more and more. Because systems are intertwined. The breaking down of silos that we've talked about for my whole career, that we're still struggling with. This element of power and control that exists, or hinders that success of a team. And I think it's really important that we ease some pressure on it's just the team leader's responsibility, it's everyone's responsibility.

[00:29:04] The team leader sets the tone and the direction. And needs with their own individual work, the ability to open up, have those conversations, hold people to account gives feedback. That's still important, but I have a role to play, to own the things that are coming my own part in it, and also have a dialogue of exploring the feedback that I'm being given. Not get defensive. And these things are, this is why it's so difficult because the book says, do this and you'll be okay. And I struggled to do this because I have all of these bits around me that they want me to do this, and, don't want me to be vulnerable. They want me to be open. They want me to challenge my own boss because I, I think there's a different way of doing things.

[00:29:53] And it's hard. It's not this whole notion of human connection is difficult.

[00:29:57] Dan: So it sounds so to make this change as a team, any member of any team, you've got forces against you from the system. You've also got the fundamental issue that we're not all that self-aware, and that's a, that's a barrier too, sometimes isn't it to understanding. So boiling this down, what could our listener do in the coming weeks to sort of help themselves to make this shift against those forces? What are some practical things that you can do to move and prepare yourself for this new world?

[00:30:28] James: I think in the first instance, I think there's an element of, actually just look at our team meeting agendas. What's going on in those agendas? Do we create any space for openness of what's really going on? And I don't mean below the line of almost blaming everything else around me, right, but w are we creating space to understand, and the openness, the honesty of the tension that we're feeling right now? Not get into well, because of X of this, but just hear it, just hear the system for a while of how people are and don't try and solve it. The notion you try and solve it. You can't solve it. You have to listen, right? Because all of our feelings are important. 

[00:31:12] So the first piece for me is look at your agenda. If it's, just top to tail, if it's a whole day meeting from nine, whatever the time is in this example, nine till five, is it item after item that is tactical task, this pier beautifully said earlier, or is there space of reflection and understanding of our connectivity into this work?

[00:31:34] Because it's easy to say when X department they deliver or when they get their act together, we'll be okay. But are we building time into understand where we're leaking our own frustrations and tensions back to them. They're picking up on that, all of these dynamics. So the first thing is just really be really clear on your agenda. Is there enough space in it?

[00:31:57] The second piece for me is the self-reflection what's happening in you as a team leader, right? And how open and honesty you with your team. Now there's a notion of protecting your team. The team don't need to know absolutely everything. I'm not advocating walking into a room and sharing absolutely everything because there's a contextual awareness of what's important. But again, what are you protecting them from, right? There's a question there. You protecting them from your own fear, or are you protecting them? Because they don't need to know right now. And it causes too much emotion of something that's going on in a system. So where's your audit of you, what's going on for you right now. And how is that impacting the team? How are you sharing or not sharing?

[00:32:41] And I think the third thing is, real real space to actually going back to that, that, that clarity and certainly, what can we be really clear on? So a bit of an audit, what can we deliver in the timeline? What does that look like? What are we confident on delivering to increase the certainty? What do we allow that small complex to emerge? And how are we going to allow that, what data do we need to test our hypothesis or our direction of travel? And are we building data and insight into our team to understand what's going on and allowing that data to ask questions and to be able to sense make? And then not just inter interpret to make a solid decision, but what are we just noticing? What's the story that's behind the story of the data? And how are you using the data to inform and Sue some unnecessary tension in the team? 

[00:33:41] Pia: I think that um, relationship between data and dialogue is so key because if we don't learn. How to extract those insights and have the difficult conversation. We are losing such a critical piece of muscle power for the future that makes us able to adapt when we're able to feel competent enough to have those types of conversations. So I think you've really hit on a key element there. That's critical. And we're at this point now where we could almost dissolve that capacity because we think technology will provide it for us, but we're human beings.

[00:34:21] James: Well, I think we also get shaft to fit in a shackled by the notion of data. Also producing something concrete, that easiest something in me because I preach something. Right. Here's the data. It says this look, we're all engaged in the team. So we're all. Okay. Okay, but what could we be better at what's missing? What's the story behind the data? How's the connectivity of your engagement survey could be very much engaged, but there's terrible. Work-life balance. Well, is, does that mean they're engaged or elements of engagement?

[00:34:52] So again, I think we miss the interconnection of data and the story, and I also think a lot of teams get trapped by solving symptoms of a bigger problem, and they chase their tail. So they keep trying to solve a symptom and not getting, because they're not using data to sensemake from, they're using data to confirm something. Oh, look, it says let's head all that direction. And with solve it over here. And then they get there and they suddenly it's over here. And I think actually, if you're not careful, data can turn into the, no that fairground game of whack-a-mole you hit it and you think great. And then it pops up somewhere else, because you're not doing the connectivity to you. As you said, peer to the sense-making behind what's the connectivity to all of this? And actually pause to look at that because actually you may find something that takes requires less effort, not more effort. And I think, I don't see a lot of teams use data against their objectives or actually even in their own data of upward feedback or team effectiveness, et cetera, to put a notion of what's going on against their objectives. It's almost like that's separate from the work we're doing. Our team survey is separate from over here. What's the connection between those two things.

[00:36:12] Dan: It's a little bit like drunk with the lamppost using it more for support than illumination. I think data can be like that, can't it?

[00:36:19] James: Definitely.

[00:36:21] Dan: James, you have shared with us some really thought provoking ideas today. I think it's going to be very it's going to cause our listener a moment of thought actually to really focus on this new world and the new ways in which they, that as a team member need to be. So incredibly valuable, James, and we really appreciate it being on the show today. Thank you so much.

[00:36:43] James: Well, thank you for the invite and the green question next time, Dan, if if you do invite me back, I'll go straight to red,

[00:36:51] Dan: Yep. For the easier ones. Yeah, I know.

[00:36:53] Pia: well

[00:36:54] Dan: Perfect.

[00:36:55] Pia: put down the gauntlet. We'll take that one

[00:36:57] Dan: Excellent. Thank you so much, James.

[00:37:00] James: Thank you. And I just hope for, there's some bits in there, like you said, that just make people think a little bit more. There is no silver bullet, but some thoughts can make a big difference.

[00:37:09] Pia: Yeah. Agreed. Thank you.

[00:37:11] 

[00:37:14] Dan: James really made me think about something that I've even more than I've been. There's been on my mind for a few years now and that's around. These polarized views in the world and I've come to the conclusion that I like everyone else wants to be right about these things. It's a great, it's a really great feeling that isn't it? That there's nothing better than our told you. So I was even thinking of it. I can feel the surge of some hormone coursing through my veins, just the thought of it happening.

[00:37:45] But I think James may have put his finger on something that. Even higher need is to be certain seeking certainty. And if I'm asking my view on something, bang, it's this, and I'm going to exclude other things, whereas there's clearly a piece here that we as teams, team members, team leaders need to do, which is to, yes, hold certainty where it exists, but rarely more importantly, look for exploration of what else is out there. What are other views? What are other perspectives? Because that certainty is going to change. And in a time of change we, we have to keep ourselves open.

[00:38:17] Pia: Absolutely. And I think there's almost a bit of vulnerability there. Isn't there, because I think when you've got that certainty, then you feel that you are in a strong position. Whereas if you don't have that certainty, then you feel a degree of vulnerability, but things are changing so rapidly. And it just strikes me like we talk a lot about diversity, but when we have a diverse set of opinions, we try and chop them up. And then we actually make cmp A versus campaign B. And that's not diversity. I mean, we can really learn from if we're open to that diversity, we then have a completely different type of dialogue and a completely different understanding of how humans work. It's incredibly rich.

[00:38:59] We see that in some of the Squadify results, you know, sometimes we can prosecute the data to make ourselves feel certain that we're okay, you know, when in actual fact that's not the case.

[00:39:10] Dan: Yeah. I think that exactly. And actually do, I think that sort of handling tensions and being able to deal with that ambiguity but also then as a team, to be able to bring that ambiguity into the light, even if it remains ambiguous to say, right, that's what, that's the thing that we've got between us, let's move forward. That is, that's a more whole way of doing things then just saying, well, which one is it? But bringing people together on that is, is no mean feat actually. And teams have a real challenge today, I think, to be able to do that consistently,

[00:39:43] Pia: And I think it's a great segue for our next week's guests. So we've talked a lot about head. This is about heart. So we are meeting the CA. Of optimal life, Simon Shepherd, and at, and we are going to be talking about heart rate, Variability monitors. Now these. Fascinating pieces of equipment that tell us a lot of what is going on inside our bodies and our hearts and give us some really helpful data. So the discussion of this and what Simon will be able to draw huge insights will give us a whole different perspective. And a little bit of personal experience from you and I, Dan 

[00:40:27] Dan: Uh, indeed we have done the thing and I'm looking forward to hearing from Simon, particularly as his LinkedIn bio says that he is an author, problem solver nuisance. So, can't wait to hear him, have him reach wreak havoc on the show.

[00:40:42] But that is it. For this episode, you can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me as produced by Mark Steadman of origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:41:00] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.