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Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan,
joined as always by my

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friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.

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Will Schroeder will, one of
the hardest parts of being a

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founder is building the company
while realizing that you're not.

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Fully in sync, lockstep
synchronicity with

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the people around you.

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And you know, we hear
people say things like,

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you know, build alignment.

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They forget to tell you in
their brochure is that alignment

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is, is largely fictional.

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And like we love, of course we
love to imagine that we're all

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on the same team, but like ever
watch the ship take on water,

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it becomes really apparent.

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Who has a life fest and
who doesn't goes down

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with the ship super fast.

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And so after decades of
trying to force alignment, I

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think I've realized it's less
about sinking goals and more

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about managing fundamentally
misaligned expectations.

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Yeah.

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And foundations, right.

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The big, the big question
is, you know, are, are we

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really aligned with everyone
around us, our employees,

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co-founders, even our spouses?

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Right.

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Are we

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right?

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You know, you and I did a
whole episode on this as

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it related to investors.

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Yes.

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'cause investors love to
say, you know, we're gonna

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be on the same side of the
table and we're aligned.

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And I'm like, no, you're not.

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Not a good remote line.

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They're cheating because

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they mean that, but
it's a round table will.

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So it's not, it's not fair.

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It's a round table.

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So just by definition, we're
all on the same side of Same.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Right.

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That's right.

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Right.

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And I just think about like,
I thought that argument

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was so hollow uhhuh, and
it sounds cool, but it's

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just so incredibly untrue.

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Yeah.

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But with this episode, I
think we need to go beyond the

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investors because this same.

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Fake alignment problem
where we wanna be aligned,

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but we're just not.

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Just not is, as you said,
as much of a problem

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with co-founders, with
employees, with spouses.

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And I think we should
talk about spouses too.

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Yep.

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Because they're like the
unsung hero or villain.

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Yes.

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Depending on how your
relationship goes.

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They're an ever present
high leverage personality

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in all of this.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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You know Ryan, I've never
thought about it like that.

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A high leverage personality.

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That's absolutely true.

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That's really well put.

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It'll be the last time I say
something that's smart today.

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So yeah, we're all done.

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Take on.

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Thank you.

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Thank everybody for being
part of the service podcast.

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That's a wrap and I'm done.

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So lemme say this, I
struggled with this

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concept of alignment for.

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Decades because Yeah.

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I wanted to believe, and I
think a lot of other people

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do too, I, I wanted to believe
optimistically that I could

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have this like symbiotic
perfect alignment with all the

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people in my life and Sure.

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And if that, and if that
alignment didn't exist,

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it was just some sort
of like Lego piece I was

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missing to complete the.

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Right.

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It never occurred to me it
does now that the alignment

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was so far off to begin with,
that crossing that, that,

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that chasm, it was way harder
than I thought it would be.

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And, and again, I think today as
we unpack why those chasms are

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so significant, even in stuff
like co-founders we're supposed

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to be in the same place.

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I think it's a big deal.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It is.

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And, and I think it's another
one of these things I, I, I seem

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to keep echoing this, but it's
one of those things that starts

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at that really early stage.

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Then we carry it forward in
a lot of cases unnecessarily.

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I realized at some point
that one of the reasons I was

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looking for that alignment,
the reason I wanted it so

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desperately to be aligned was
that at the early stage of a

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startup, very little is working.

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Right?

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Right.

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And so it was almost as if,
as long as everybody else

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was aligned with me, like as
long as everybody else sort

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of like felt like what I was
doing was the right thing.

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Like it was some form of
another, like a validation

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or maybe it was just
even as simple as like.

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If everybody else could have
the rose colored glasses

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on, I could keep swimming
through the Meyer, right?

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Just like somehow I needed
that alignment psychologically

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less actually, like from a,
from a practical standpoint,

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I didn't actually need
them to do anything, right?

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Like, I don't need my spouse
to be aligned with me so that

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I can go do the thing I have
to do, or that she can do the

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things that she needs to do.

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I just wanted it to be, I
wanted it to be so that I

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could feel good about going
and doing what I had to do.

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It wasn't fundamentally
gonna stop me from doing it.

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Yet it can, it

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also feels a lot different
when it's, when it's

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not aligned, right?

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There's one thing why I don't
need all of your support, but

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getting negative support where
you're actually tearing me

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down is definitely a problem.

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You know, Ryan, I'm,
I'm gonna rewind back

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circa 20 12, 20 13, some,
somewhere in that era, okay?

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Um, deep in the archives.

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Deep in the archives, and you
and I are just starting to

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hire this new entrant to the
workforce called millennials.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Now, now, and again, I hate
when people do this like, like

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generational class warfare,
et cetera, but, and I know

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a lot of our audience are,
you know, are millennials.

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So, so bear with me
when I say this, right?

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Ryan and I are, are, are
in the, the Gen X category.

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None of this matters.

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I'm just pointing out,
this was our first time,

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like in our thirties.

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Yeah.

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Hiring a generation
that wasn't us.

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Right.

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They were just entering.

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Right.

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There was finally, they were,
they were now of legal age

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to hire, and so Exactly.

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We started doing so.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And so this was the first
time in my generation, right.

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And I remember having these
conversations with you.

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Where a new generation comes
to work and they brought this

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new concept that we had never
heard of before called work-life

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balance and, and, and what
work-life balance means is

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I don't wanna work as much.

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I've never heard someone
introduce work-life balance.

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That also includes,
because I wanna work more.

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Right.

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Can you lighten my life a
little so I can put more weight

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on the work side, please?

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Exactly right.

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So anyway, that's
here nor there.

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Point is we start hiring
a, a bunch of millennials.

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And by millennials I just mean
like 22 year olds at the time.

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Okay.

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Yep.

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At the time, that
was it at the time.

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Uh, they're in forties now,
but at the time they'd come

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to work, they were fine.

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Right?

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All, all good, all green
light signals, but the

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craziest thing happened.

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At six o'clock, which we,
sorry, we worked at, uh,

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nine to six at six o'clock.

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Everyone would pack their
laptops in just all at once.

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Just like, yeah, lemons.

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And you could separate without
having to say a word, who is

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Gen X and who is millennial.

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Right?

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Because the millennials, like
you were still sitting, you

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were Gen X

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if you

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were

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Exactly.

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No one said a word, right?

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Like no one had to say a thing.

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No, but the, the reason I bring
this up is it was the first time

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that I had ever seen such a.

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Dramatic distinction between
my vision of alignment and

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their vision of alignment.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And so I leaned in naturally
and I asked some folks,

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I was like, so, you know,
you're leaving at six.

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It was like a half day.

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I mean, I'm, I'm kidding.

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But like, you know, that's,
that's kinda like, uh, and

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they were like, yeah, that's
'cause I'm an employee.

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You know, I, I'm not the owner.

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They said this in so many
words, but it was the first

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time they'd ever heard
someone verbalize that.

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Now I was like, huh.

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You're not wrong.

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Yeah.

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You, you've got a point.

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I don't like that it's
pointed at me, but you've

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got a point, right?

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Like, I, I don't get to
leave the movie halfway.

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I, I have to stick until
the, the credits roll, right?

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Like, why do you get to leave?

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It didn't occur to me
that our incentives

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were different.

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Like up until that
point, I had never had to

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have that conversation.

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And what I'm saying is
just, and there's nothing

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wrong with what they did.

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My point is that they
did it right and it, it

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forced me to realize that
we're not in alignment.

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Prior to that, I'm
not even kidding.

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For like, like 15 years, I
would work until midnight

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with my entire team.

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And now mind you, we're all
younger, but so were they right?

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Like, and no one would
think twice about it.

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There's a guy at a Santa
Monica named Jason Nazar.

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Yeah.

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Um, Jason started doc stock.com
and then, damn, I just blanked

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into the second company started.

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I think he sold 'em both.

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And uh, I remember one
time I was in Santa Monica,

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that's when I was living
there and uh, Jason's like,

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Hey, let's grab some dinner.

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We got to dinner, it's like
nine o'clock, a little bit

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late for a dinner, and after
dinner he's like, uh, uh, I

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gotta head back to the office.

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I'm like, oh, did
you leave something?

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He's like, no,
we're still working.

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Story just, just because I
had to see this and we were

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walking past his office
Anyway, I go, I wanna go

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see what this looks like.

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Right?

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I go in, Ryan, his entire team
was there, like, no different

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than when I'd stopped by at
like three in the afternoon.

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Right?

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Right.

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And I'm not saying
this is healthier.

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Good.

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No, no, no.

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I'm saying somehow he had
aligned his interests and,

255
00:08:06,025 --> 00:08:08,455
and like his interest of
being a founder with their

256
00:08:08,455 --> 00:08:10,585
interests of, of wanting or
maybe having to be there.

257
00:08:10,585 --> 00:08:10,735
Yeah.

258
00:08:11,185 --> 00:08:12,925
But now I can't
even fathom that.

259
00:08:13,405 --> 00:08:15,830
Like, I don't even pretend like
those interests are aligned.

260
00:08:16,470 --> 00:08:18,690
No, I, and I think that was
part of the challenge, right?

261
00:08:18,690 --> 00:08:22,470
Is that early on, right, I used
to expect my staff to have to

262
00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:25,290
be as, all in as me and, and
anyone around me, and it was

263
00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:26,250
participating anything with me.

264
00:08:26,250 --> 00:08:28,590
I always expected everybody
else to be as in as me.

265
00:08:28,620 --> 00:08:31,230
I told the story once about
getting dressed down by my

266
00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:34,620
coach after, after trying to
push the team too hard and,

267
00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:36,780
and basically having me explain
exactly this to me is like.

268
00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:38,810
The consequences aren't
the same for everybody.

269
00:08:38,810 --> 00:08:41,540
Not everybody wants the same
things out of this that you do.

270
00:08:41,750 --> 00:08:43,430
Not everyone's gonna
get the same things out

271
00:08:43,430 --> 00:08:44,240
of this that you do.

272
00:08:44,390 --> 00:08:46,370
Therefore you can't expect
'em to put the same things

273
00:08:46,370 --> 00:08:47,960
into this as you do, right?

274
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,920
So me expecting everyone to be
as all in as I was, wasn't fair,

275
00:08:52,070 --> 00:08:54,410
wasn't fair for the, the, the
team wasn't fair for my staff.

276
00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:54,740
Later.

277
00:08:55,130 --> 00:08:56,450
They didn't sign up for what?

278
00:08:56,450 --> 00:08:58,520
I'm just gonna say my
level of consequence.

279
00:08:58,905 --> 00:08:59,205
Correct.

280
00:08:59,415 --> 00:08:59,795
Right, right.

281
00:08:59,895 --> 00:09:01,035
In either direction.

282
00:09:01,155 --> 00:09:01,455
Right.

283
00:09:01,455 --> 00:09:03,825
If it goes really well,
it will go better for me.

284
00:09:04,005 --> 00:09:05,775
If it goes really
poorly, it will go a

285
00:09:05,775 --> 00:09:07,275
lot more poorly for me.

286
00:09:07,335 --> 00:09:07,575
Right.

287
00:09:07,575 --> 00:09:08,145
The the way.

288
00:09:08,145 --> 00:09:08,205
Yeah.

289
00:09:08,205 --> 00:09:10,245
It'll, we are, it's, it's
funny, you can kind of think

290
00:09:10,245 --> 00:09:11,115
of, it's like a pendulum.

291
00:09:11,415 --> 00:09:14,205
We are way out at the very
far reaches the pendulum.

292
00:09:14,205 --> 00:09:16,485
So when it swings,
we swing all the way.

293
00:09:16,485 --> 00:09:18,045
There's somewhere
down near the bottom.

294
00:09:18,045 --> 00:09:21,135
So yeah, it goes back and forth,
but it's like being on deck

295
00:09:21,135 --> 00:09:22,305
versus being in the crow's nest.

296
00:09:22,335 --> 00:09:23,565
We're in the crow's nest, right.

297
00:09:23,565 --> 00:09:26,235
So when the ship tilts,
we go all the way.

298
00:09:26,385 --> 00:09:27,165
And I think that.

299
00:09:27,585 --> 00:09:31,905
Once you realize that and you
stop expecting that alignment,

300
00:09:32,115 --> 00:09:33,405
it, it got a little easier.

301
00:09:33,405 --> 00:09:35,025
I'm, I'm not gonna say
it got easy, it was still

302
00:09:35,025 --> 00:09:37,365
hugely frustrating for
me, but it got easier.

303
00:09:37,545 --> 00:09:37,725
Yeah.

304
00:09:37,755 --> 00:09:39,225
Okay, so, so stick
with that then.

305
00:09:39,435 --> 00:09:43,035
So I think my challenge, and I
think a lot of others is, Hey,

306
00:09:43,035 --> 00:09:44,025
we're all in this together.

307
00:09:44,025 --> 00:09:45,465
We're all gonna build
something great.

308
00:09:45,735 --> 00:09:47,385
And it's like, yeah, sort of.

309
00:09:47,745 --> 00:09:50,055
Actually, I'll give you
another interesting point

310
00:09:50,055 --> 00:09:51,345
about this concept of.

311
00:09:51,704 --> 00:09:52,935
Ownership, if you will.

312
00:09:52,995 --> 00:09:54,495
And I don't, I'm not talking
about equity, I just mean

313
00:09:54,495 --> 00:09:57,285
like ownership of the,
of what you're building.

314
00:09:57,525 --> 00:09:57,765
Okay.

315
00:09:57,765 --> 00:10:00,255
Like, just like genuine
passion for what it is.

316
00:10:00,555 --> 00:10:02,655
This concept of not my baby.

317
00:10:02,685 --> 00:10:06,255
And, and by the way, not my
baby does not mean that I wasn't

318
00:10:06,255 --> 00:10:07,305
the person that started it.

319
00:10:07,605 --> 00:10:10,365
But what I'm saying is there
are folks and like you and

320
00:10:10,370 --> 00:10:12,795
g and you know, folks like
that, that have full ownership

321
00:10:12,795 --> 00:10:14,204
of what's here, right?

322
00:10:14,204 --> 00:10:14,265
Yeah.

323
00:10:14,265 --> 00:10:17,115
Like even there from the start,
you, you've built this thing,

324
00:10:17,115 --> 00:10:20,745
this thing is a part of your
DNA, but it stops there too.

325
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,950
The, the other people
that are in after, after,

326
00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:24,300
after, don't have that.

327
00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,130
Like, don't have it like
it's my baby two kind of DNA.

328
00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:26,460
Yep.

329
00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:29,220
And for a long time I just
assumed if you were on

330
00:10:29,220 --> 00:10:31,200
payroll, you had that DNA.

331
00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:32,010
Right.

332
00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:33,390
No, it's, it's not it.

333
00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:35,940
And you know, it's
interesting because I think

334
00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:37,935
that, you know, some of
it is that that ownership.

335
00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:41,100
There's a particular type of
ownership that I'm gonna, I'm

336
00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,920
gonna call out here because
I, I think that commitment gap

337
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,320
isn't necessarily about loyalty.

338
00:10:46,590 --> 00:10:46,920
Right.

339
00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:47,310
Right.

340
00:10:47,310 --> 00:10:47,940
Yeah, I agree with that.

341
00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:48,210
Totally.

342
00:10:48,215 --> 00:10:50,460
It's, it's, it's the, the
ownership is, is about the risk.

343
00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:52,320
It's about who owns the
risk in a lot of cases.

344
00:10:52,350 --> 00:10:52,560
Yep.

345
00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:52,830
Right.

346
00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:55,650
Who actually owns the
downside of this thing,

347
00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,950
because that is going to
really and truly determine.

348
00:10:59,339 --> 00:11:01,620
How committed someone is.

349
00:11:01,829 --> 00:11:03,569
Now, I, I think you're talking
about a different type of

350
00:11:03,569 --> 00:11:06,120
ownership, which is also
extremely valid, which is

351
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,610
just having been and built
and, and, and been part of it.

352
00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:10,680
And literally it's part
of your DNA, you're

353
00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:11,790
part of its DNA, right?

354
00:11:11,790 --> 00:11:14,130
Like you pull this out and
like that's a, that's now it's

355
00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:15,150
no longer the same company.

356
00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:17,550
That's a different aspect,
but equally as important.

357
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,400
Well, my frustrations have
been, have been going in

358
00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,400
these conversations with an
expectation that they, they saw

359
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,010
things the way I did, and again,
the consequence was a big one.

360
00:11:26,219 --> 00:11:26,370
Yeah.

361
00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:27,329
I'll give you an example, like.

362
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,430
10 years ago, I remember you,
me and a couple other, other

363
00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:32,800
leadership were on a, a chat.

364
00:11:33,070 --> 00:11:34,270
This was on a Saturday.

365
00:11:34,270 --> 00:11:34,300
Okay.

366
00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:37,030
And something was going
wrong with something maybe

367
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:39,550
like our, our ads weren't
firing or something, like

368
00:11:39,550 --> 00:11:40,235
there was some like issue.

369
00:11:41,145 --> 00:11:43,935
I remember like, like
chatting with, with all of you

370
00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:45,795
particularly, you know, one
of the folks in in the group

371
00:11:46,065 --> 00:11:48,225
was like, Hey guys, honestly,
this is like a weekend.

372
00:11:48,285 --> 00:11:49,875
You know, I wanna be
off on the weekends.

373
00:11:49,935 --> 00:11:53,385
I don't wanna, um, do that
in my response in so many

374
00:11:53,385 --> 00:11:54,405
words, but not these words.

375
00:11:54,405 --> 00:11:56,535
I'm just trying to
like paraphrase was, if

376
00:11:56,535 --> 00:11:58,425
that's your response, you
shouldn't be on this chat.

377
00:11:59,324 --> 00:12:00,855
Meaning like you shouldn't
be in leadership.

378
00:12:01,005 --> 00:12:03,670
The point of leadership is that
you do have to take these calls.

379
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:04,094
You are tied to these

380
00:12:04,094 --> 00:12:04,694
consequences.

381
00:12:04,785 --> 00:12:04,935
Yeah.

382
00:12:04,935 --> 00:12:05,444
Right, right.

383
00:12:05,594 --> 00:12:06,550
You don't, you don't
get to call off.

384
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:07,094
We lose level of shit.

385
00:12:07,094 --> 00:12:08,895
Like it wasn't, it wasn't
like we were like, Hey

386
00:12:08,895 --> 00:12:10,305
guys, what do you think?

387
00:12:10,305 --> 00:12:13,694
Should we plan the Christmas
party for the 15th or the 18th?

388
00:12:13,995 --> 00:12:16,155
It's like, Hey, there's a
fundamental challenge like

389
00:12:16,155 --> 00:12:17,295
we're taking on water.

390
00:12:17,415 --> 00:12:18,105
Yeah, exactly.

391
00:12:18,105 --> 00:12:19,005
You up, we're picking on water.

392
00:12:19,334 --> 00:12:19,574
Yeah.

393
00:12:19,574 --> 00:12:22,035
And so, but again, it's
back to that reframing.

394
00:12:22,245 --> 00:12:24,645
So now what I've come to,
to realize, and again,

395
00:12:24,645 --> 00:12:26,175
this will start to,
you'll start to see this.

396
00:12:26,505 --> 00:12:28,005
Theme permeate through
everything we're

397
00:12:28,005 --> 00:12:28,545
about to talk about.

398
00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:33,314
What I've started to realize is
I have to be super honest about

399
00:12:33,464 --> 00:12:34,694
what those differences are.

400
00:12:35,055 --> 00:12:38,055
If we can't make payroll,
they will lose their job.

401
00:12:38,055 --> 00:12:40,755
And there is nothing, there's
nothing inconsequential about

402
00:12:40,755 --> 00:12:41,655
that, that's meaningful, right.

403
00:12:41,655 --> 00:12:42,765
That's, those are
people's lives.

404
00:12:42,915 --> 00:12:46,005
But if I can't, uh, make
payroll, I lose everything.

405
00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:48,405
I, everything, I lose
everybody's jobs, right?

406
00:12:48,405 --> 00:12:48,464
Yeah.

407
00:12:48,464 --> 00:12:49,454
I lose my own job.

408
00:12:49,454 --> 00:12:51,765
I put myself into personal
risk, like, you know, I

409
00:12:51,765 --> 00:12:53,385
can't just quit and restart.

410
00:12:53,685 --> 00:12:53,935
To your point.

411
00:12:54,555 --> 00:12:56,295
Everyone else has some
version of a life raft.

412
00:12:56,325 --> 00:12:58,095
I'm going down with this thing
to the bottom of the ocean.

413
00:12:58,095 --> 00:12:58,245
Yep.

414
00:12:58,545 --> 00:13:01,185
So yes, I'm freaking out
about it on a Saturday.

415
00:13:01,335 --> 00:13:04,095
There's a reason someone else
isn't and I need to check myself

416
00:13:04,095 --> 00:13:05,175
before I have that reaction

417
00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:05,835
for sure.

418
00:13:05,955 --> 00:13:09,135
And I, I think like as, as time
goes on, one of the things that

419
00:13:09,135 --> 00:13:11,475
I've realized, particularly
within the, the employee sec,

420
00:13:11,565 --> 00:13:13,785
I don't need everyone to.

421
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:14,480
Agree.

422
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,430
I don't need everyone to
have the same level of

423
00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:17,600
commitment or consequence.

424
00:13:17,810 --> 00:13:18,800
It's about them showing up.

425
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:18,920
Right.

426
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:19,700
It's not about
everyone agreeing.

427
00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:19,760
Yeah.

428
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,050
It's about everybody
still showing up.

429
00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:21,170
Right.

430
00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:23,240
It's about being there, doing
the thing that I need, and

431
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,280
me being very clear on kind
of what I need and letting

432
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,990
them be very clear on,
on what I need from them.

433
00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:27,290
Sure.

434
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:30,320
But, but it is still frustrating
and you know, it's funny, I

435
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,330
do believe that part of this
comes from a really good

436
00:13:32,330 --> 00:13:33,950
place, which is do you just.

437
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:37,530
We're seeking out that, so
like the, this desire for

438
00:13:37,530 --> 00:13:39,810
alignment, particularly amongst
the team, forget the, the

439
00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:42,630
spouses for a minute, forget
the, the, the people who aren't

440
00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:45,420
directly, directly, like in
this, like literally turning

441
00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:47,010
the screws in the bolts and
building a machine with us.

442
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:50,730
I think part of that is
this sort of like desire

443
00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:54,390
for camaraderie, this
desire to feel like.

444
00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:58,050
Everyone cares enough to,
to really wanna do this

445
00:13:58,050 --> 00:13:58,800
for all the right reasons.

446
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,120
So again, I think, I
think part of this does

447
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:00,780
come from a good place.

448
00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:03,000
This isn't me saying like, I
need everyone aligned so that

449
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,700
we can get things done and grow
faster and make more money.

450
00:14:06,030 --> 00:14:08,460
It, yes, that is one of the
byproducts, but I think for me

451
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:11,625
it was just always about like,
it always felt good, right?

452
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:11,880
Right.

453
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,950
It was like you ever pull
like a study all night?

454
00:14:14,715 --> 00:14:16,665
Where it was like, let's,
let's ace this exam.

455
00:14:16,665 --> 00:14:18,555
Okay, well that was the
thing that used to happen.

456
00:14:18,855 --> 00:14:21,705
Or just, you know, let's, let's
stay up until this thing ships.

457
00:14:21,705 --> 00:14:25,035
But like at that level where
it wasn't out of some sense

458
00:14:25,035 --> 00:14:29,295
of obligation, it was a sense
of desire and pride that

459
00:14:29,295 --> 00:14:31,065
happened at an individual level.

460
00:14:31,575 --> 00:14:33,525
They culminated in a group
of people doing something

461
00:14:33,525 --> 00:14:34,425
pretty awesome together.

462
00:14:34,425 --> 00:14:36,705
And I think that like part
of me will always want

463
00:14:36,705 --> 00:14:37,860
to recreate that, right?

464
00:14:37,865 --> 00:14:38,025
Right.

465
00:14:38,025 --> 00:14:40,365
Part of me will always wanna
say like, let's do stay at the

466
00:14:40,365 --> 00:14:42,285
office till midnight, and then
I'll look at labor laws and

467
00:14:42,285 --> 00:14:43,185
go, yeah, let's, maybe not.

468
00:14:43,365 --> 00:14:43,515
Yeah.

469
00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:45,765
Um, but okay,

470
00:14:45,765 --> 00:14:47,445
so let's take that
off the table though.

471
00:14:47,595 --> 00:14:49,935
Let's move up the
chain to a co-founder.

472
00:14:50,235 --> 00:14:50,655
Okay.

473
00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:53,685
And here's someone, let's
say you have 50 50 stock.

474
00:14:53,685 --> 00:14:55,755
Like, you know, we're, we're
taking off the, Hey, you have

475
00:14:55,755 --> 00:14:56,685
more than I do, kind of thing.

476
00:14:57,015 --> 00:14:58,965
And so at that point you're
like, well, well then

477
00:14:58,965 --> 00:14:59,865
we're definitely aligned.

478
00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:00,870
Yeah.

479
00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:03,090
Uh, because we have the
same amount of stock upside,

480
00:15:03,090 --> 00:15:03,990
downside is the same.

481
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:06,420
Let's assume every dollar
in dollar out is the same.

482
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,120
And I'm like,
yeah, no you don't.

483
00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:12,150
On paper, those should
align, but that's actually

484
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:14,640
not what creates co-founder
disputes more often.

485
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:16,290
It's an expectation.

486
00:15:16,705 --> 00:15:16,855
It's

487
00:15:16,855 --> 00:15:18,805
being in the same boat and
looking at different maps.

488
00:15:18,895 --> 00:15:19,105
Yep.

489
00:15:19,315 --> 00:15:19,555
Right.

490
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,805
It's, it's, look at it
that's like, it's, it's

491
00:15:21,805 --> 00:15:22,915
super frustrating, right?

492
00:15:22,915 --> 00:15:23,290
Yeah, yeah.

493
00:15:23,295 --> 00:15:25,405
And for both sides, clearly.

494
00:15:25,495 --> 00:15:25,825
Right.

495
00:15:26,155 --> 00:15:27,655
Except when just wouldn't
you, like you and I we're

496
00:15:27,655 --> 00:15:29,035
always the, the ones
that are right about it.

497
00:15:29,035 --> 00:15:31,615
And so then like, it's, it's
more frustrating for us because

498
00:15:31,615 --> 00:15:32,905
it was their misalignment.

499
00:15:34,675 --> 00:15:36,355
I was like, okay, so
here's what I would say.

500
00:15:36,445 --> 00:15:37,705
The thing that I've seen.

501
00:15:38,115 --> 00:15:41,385
The most is an expectation
of contribution.

502
00:15:41,594 --> 00:15:43,755
Ryan, you and I, you and
I are 50 50 co-founders on

503
00:15:43,755 --> 00:15:47,385
something, and we both have
an expectation about how

504
00:15:47,385 --> 00:15:48,765
contribution's going to work.

505
00:15:49,214 --> 00:15:53,055
And here's a couple places that
backfires and, and using you and

506
00:15:53,055 --> 00:15:55,605
I as a metaphor for like every
co-founder, the first place

507
00:15:55,605 --> 00:15:57,390
that backfires is number one.

508
00:15:57,390 --> 00:15:59,355
Everyone thinks they
work harder than they do.

509
00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:00,885
We, we did a whole
episode about this.

510
00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:03,329
You know, talking about
like people's perception

511
00:16:03,329 --> 00:16:04,110
of how hard they work.

512
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:07,020
So like I come home to
my spouse, I'm like, oh

513
00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:08,280
my God, what a long day.

514
00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:11,400
And my spouse just assumes
that must mean that I've

515
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,720
done all this effort.

516
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:13,170
Right?

517
00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:13,410
Right.

518
00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:15,090
But I could have worked
for two freaking hours,

519
00:16:15,270 --> 00:16:17,250
but I could, I could have
professionally complained

520
00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:18,090
about it when I could home.

521
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:18,390
Right?

522
00:16:18,689 --> 00:16:21,750
Or in my mind, I quote,
work really hard.

523
00:16:22,265 --> 00:16:24,335
I mean, Ryan, you and I
have both dealt with this.

524
00:16:24,335 --> 00:16:26,045
In fact, I think we've
done podcasts about this.

525
00:16:26,225 --> 00:16:28,565
I've had days where I've
felt like I've just gone

526
00:16:28,565 --> 00:16:31,325
through a slog all day and
have nothing to show for it.

527
00:16:31,505 --> 00:16:32,375
Nothing to show for it.

528
00:16:32,495 --> 00:16:32,585
Yeah.

529
00:16:32,585 --> 00:16:32,765
Some

530
00:16:32,765 --> 00:16:34,295
people, that's
their career, right?

531
00:16:34,715 --> 00:16:34,895
They're

532
00:16:34,895 --> 00:16:38,945
busy, being busy, and in
their mind, yeah, like,

533
00:16:38,945 --> 00:16:41,580
I worked hard, but you
didn't get anything done.

534
00:16:42,705 --> 00:16:45,195
Like, yes, you spent
time in a place

535
00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:46,365
that doesn't mean
you had output.

536
00:16:46,515 --> 00:16:48,675
It's gotta come down to,
to transformation, right?

537
00:16:48,675 --> 00:16:50,655
Something has to have
changed based on what

538
00:16:50,655 --> 00:16:52,815
you did and hopefully
positive transformation,

539
00:16:52,815 --> 00:16:54,045
not just something changed.

540
00:16:54,225 --> 00:16:56,205
Ryan, you ever play a
soccer game where you worked

541
00:16:56,205 --> 00:16:56,985
really hard but you didn't

542
00:16:56,985 --> 00:16:57,230
score any points?

543
00:16:58,485 --> 00:16:59,324
Yeah, most of them.

544
00:17:01,395 --> 00:17:02,745
And I'm not the goalie, right?

545
00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:03,465
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say.

546
00:17:04,484 --> 00:17:05,595
But, but you know, same thing.

547
00:17:05,595 --> 00:17:08,535
And so my point is, that's
usually where it starts,

548
00:17:08,535 --> 00:17:11,204
this, this misalignment,
is that our expectations

549
00:17:11,204 --> 00:17:14,535
about our output and someone
else's output don't align.

550
00:17:14,535 --> 00:17:16,785
So it's like, I'm doing
everything right and they're

551
00:17:16,875 --> 00:17:17,744
fucking everything up.

552
00:17:17,744 --> 00:17:18,135
Okay.

553
00:17:18,135 --> 00:17:20,385
So, so that's one part, but
another part, I'm just gonna

554
00:17:20,385 --> 00:17:22,065
give you the two categories
and let's kind of, you know,

555
00:17:22,065 --> 00:17:22,845
build into a little bit.

556
00:17:23,025 --> 00:17:25,905
But the other part is, uh,
an expectation on how this

557
00:17:25,905 --> 00:17:27,045
company should be run.

558
00:17:27,550 --> 00:17:28,960
That has so many tentacles.

559
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,690
That's everything does from how
our culture should be to whether

560
00:17:31,690 --> 00:17:34,840
we take on money to whether do
we pull out cash now or do we

561
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,139
reinvest it for the future or to
what our product's going to be.

562
00:17:38,139 --> 00:17:38,889
You know, you name it.

563
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:39,280
Right?

564
00:17:39,550 --> 00:17:42,550
And those expectations
can become so dissimilar.

565
00:17:42,945 --> 00:17:46,035
Our alignment is
damn near impossible.

566
00:17:46,065 --> 00:17:48,015
Even though on paper we
should be on the same side

567
00:17:48,015 --> 00:17:48,375
of the table.

568
00:17:48,525 --> 00:17:51,045
I think that's the, the bigger
one for me, because I really

569
00:17:51,045 --> 00:17:53,775
do feel like when, when the
friction isn't about effort,

570
00:17:53,835 --> 00:17:56,565
meaning like what are, what are
our actual daily contributions?

571
00:17:56,565 --> 00:17:58,395
Because to your point,
everybody's gonna have a

572
00:17:58,395 --> 00:17:59,355
different view on that anyways.

573
00:17:59,355 --> 00:17:59,505
Right?

574
00:17:59,505 --> 00:18:01,995
Like the way I feel about
what I did today may

575
00:18:01,995 --> 00:18:02,925
or may not be accurate.

576
00:18:03,315 --> 00:18:06,135
So the way you feel about
what I do today, probably

577
00:18:06,135 --> 00:18:07,515
even less accurate, right?

578
00:18:07,815 --> 00:18:08,325
Third party.

579
00:18:08,595 --> 00:18:09,465
So it's like.

580
00:18:10,095 --> 00:18:12,555
It's super tough, but when, when
the friction isn't about effort,

581
00:18:12,555 --> 00:18:13,810
when it becomes about direction.

582
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:16,260
The fundamentals of how are
we running the business?

583
00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:17,070
Who are we running it with?

584
00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:18,090
Who are our clients gonna be?

585
00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:19,020
Who are our staff gonna be?

586
00:18:19,469 --> 00:18:22,709
All of these little things
that, that are so, so

587
00:18:22,860 --> 00:18:25,560
involved in whether the
company works or not, or how

588
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,750
well it works, or how well
we enjoy how it's working.

589
00:18:28,169 --> 00:18:30,570
That was what I meant before
when I said same boat,

590
00:18:30,570 --> 00:18:31,409
different maps, right?

591
00:18:31,649 --> 00:18:33,750
Even if we're putting in the
same amount of effort, let's

592
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:36,060
say we do get that to parody,
like just every day, somehow

593
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:39,510
magically we hit exactly
the same level of of effort.

594
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:41,879
We're both rowing
exactly the same speed.

595
00:18:41,925 --> 00:18:43,905
It turns out we're rowing
different directions,

596
00:18:44,145 --> 00:18:44,925
we're going nowhere.

597
00:18:45,044 --> 00:18:49,245
To me, that's the most critical
misalignment between, between

598
00:18:49,245 --> 00:18:51,794
co-founders and I think it's
the harder one to diagnose.

599
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,200
Because what people will tend
to look at is the other person's

600
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,909
output and they'll go, whether
it's either working or not.

601
00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:59,700
What they don't look at
in most cases is, is that

602
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,760
working towards the thing I
am working towards as well?

603
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,649
Like, are we even pointed
in the same direction?

604
00:19:04,649 --> 00:19:07,260
If I can quantify their effort,
and that's all I looked at like.

605
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:08,840
Good Will went 60 miles an hour.

606
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:09,860
I went 60 miles an hour.

607
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:10,250
Right?

608
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:10,670
Too damn bad.

609
00:19:10,670 --> 00:19:11,930
We went opposite directions.

610
00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:12,140
Right?

611
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:13,295
That's not good, but
that's good point.

612
00:19:13,295 --> 00:19:15,110
I think that's the part
people fail to look at, right?

613
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:16,700
That's the part people
fail to analyze.

614
00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:19,760
You know, something that's
really funny about everything

615
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,270
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.

616
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:26,060
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a

617
00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:29,930
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.

618
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:30,960
You may just not know it.

619
00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:31,790
But that's okay.

620
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:33,980
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

621
00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:36,650
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

622
00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:40,760
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.

623
00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:44,150
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

624
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:47,180
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the

625
00:19:47,180 --> 00:19:48,530
test and be done with it.

626
00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:49,250
Okay?

627
00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:50,535
So when we think about that.

628
00:19:51,165 --> 00:19:55,185
And we're like, Hey, shit, I, I
really don't have the same type

629
00:19:55,185 --> 00:19:56,805
of alignment as my co-founder.

630
00:19:57,105 --> 00:19:58,845
Again, I think this is,
this is the, the recurring

631
00:19:58,845 --> 00:19:59,535
theme I was talking about.

632
00:19:59,715 --> 00:20:01,845
The first thing is to
recognize that, right?

633
00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:04,755
To be able to say, I wanna be
on the same page of, of course I

634
00:20:04,755 --> 00:20:06,405
want a page, but I'm not, right?

635
00:20:06,405 --> 00:20:09,465
Like, I don't believe they
work hard, or I don't believe

636
00:20:09,495 --> 00:20:12,495
that we should raise VC, or,
I don't believe this product

637
00:20:12,495 --> 00:20:13,515
is, you know, ever gonna work.

638
00:20:13,515 --> 00:20:16,335
Like, you have to be really
honest about the fact that

639
00:20:16,335 --> 00:20:18,855
you are not on board with
alignment before you try

640
00:20:18,855 --> 00:20:19,410
to force this alignment.

641
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:22,879
I see this, you know, and we
will get to, to, to couples

642
00:20:22,879 --> 00:20:25,760
in relationships in a second,
but like, I see this in

643
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,820
relationships all the time
where you've got, uh, uh, two

644
00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:31,580
people like somebody and their
spouse and they can't reconcile

645
00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:32,915
because at the end of the
day, they just don't agree.

646
00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:36,000
And they're like, you know, we
wanna have a happy relationship,

647
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:36,930
marriage, whatever it is.

648
00:20:37,170 --> 00:20:38,670
And I'm like, you're
not going to, you

649
00:20:38,670 --> 00:20:40,260
fundamentally don't agree.

650
00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:42,330
Like your, your
foundation is broken.

651
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:44,310
And that's what we're talking
about here with co-founders,

652
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:47,220
which, you know, the, the
mirror between co-founders and

653
00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:49,020
spouses is so freaking tight.

654
00:20:49,470 --> 00:20:51,330
'cause it, you know, it
is that kind of symbiotic

655
00:20:51,330 --> 00:20:54,210
relationship and I think
it's hard to get right.

656
00:20:54,615 --> 00:20:55,005
The person

657
00:20:55,005 --> 00:20:57,405
you spend the other part of
your waking hours with, right?

658
00:20:57,435 --> 00:20:58,095
Yeah, exactly.

659
00:20:58,095 --> 00:20:58,395
Yeah.

660
00:20:58,395 --> 00:20:59,175
It's your daytime spouse.

661
00:20:59,175 --> 00:21:01,065
You know, I think one of the
challenges, I'm gonna go back

662
00:21:01,065 --> 00:21:02,685
to what I said, you know,
the top of the episode, which

663
00:21:02,685 --> 00:21:04,605
is so many of these things
come from the early days

664
00:21:04,605 --> 00:21:05,685
and just get perpetuated.

665
00:21:05,685 --> 00:21:07,635
Now this one's a bit
different because it's,

666
00:21:07,635 --> 00:21:08,955
it's an inverse curve.

667
00:21:08,955 --> 00:21:11,445
I think at the beginning,
co-founder alignment

668
00:21:11,445 --> 00:21:13,185
is actually very good.

669
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:16,710
Because there's damn near
nothing to to misalign on.

670
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:16,890
Right.

671
00:21:16,890 --> 00:21:19,500
You're like, do you think
this is a crazy idea that has

672
00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:21,990
almost no chances of succeeding
and we should just try it?

673
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:22,800
Yeah.

674
00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:23,040
Right.

675
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,450
That's all there
was to think about.

676
00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:24,629
Right?

677
00:21:24,629 --> 00:21:25,285
There's nothing there.

678
00:21:25,285 --> 00:21:25,405
Yep.

679
00:21:25,405 --> 00:21:27,750
There's no consequence yet,
and I think that that's one of

680
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:31,650
the, the big challenges with
this is that founders miss the

681
00:21:31,650 --> 00:21:34,740
opportunities or don't take
the opportunities to reassess

682
00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:35,940
that on an ongoing basis.

683
00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:36,000
Yeah.

684
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,460
I mean, talk about something
that needs real time monitoring.

685
00:21:39,045 --> 00:21:42,825
It is co-founder alignment
because it's something that by

686
00:21:42,915 --> 00:21:46,305
just nature of how a startup
builds, it erodes or grows

687
00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:50,115
further apart as time passes by
virtue of growing the business.

688
00:21:50,115 --> 00:21:50,205
Yep.

689
00:21:50,235 --> 00:21:53,955
Some, in some ways, your success
is what will drive you apart.

690
00:21:53,955 --> 00:21:56,535
I don't mean that that like
success necessarily has

691
00:21:56,535 --> 00:21:59,085
to, but just by getting
bigger and having more

692
00:21:59,175 --> 00:22:01,425
dynamicism in the startup.

693
00:22:01,784 --> 00:22:06,135
You are inherently driving more
variability, more opportunities

694
00:22:06,135 --> 00:22:08,865
for us to be misaligned and
go different directions.

695
00:22:09,344 --> 00:22:10,905
Do you ever see this
get caught in time?

696
00:22:10,905 --> 00:22:12,465
I'm trying to think of
like, have I seen like

697
00:22:12,735 --> 00:22:13,995
founders catch this in time?

698
00:22:13,995 --> 00:22:15,110
I feel like there's like
two types of founders.

699
00:22:15,825 --> 00:22:18,255
The ones that are like, they
were just measuring it and

700
00:22:18,255 --> 00:22:20,205
they're constantly talking
to doing it, and there's

701
00:22:20,205 --> 00:22:22,545
the ones that get to like
the cataclysm and they're

702
00:22:22,545 --> 00:22:25,845
like, holy shit, I don't
even recognize you anymore.

703
00:22:26,085 --> 00:22:27,135
Let's try to figure this out.

704
00:22:27,345 --> 00:22:28,035
I think everybody

705
00:22:28,035 --> 00:22:29,940
waits till it's too late
because no one, this is, this

706
00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:30,555
is the whole point of this.

707
00:22:30,615 --> 00:22:33,885
This episode is, no one
anticipates why it would be a

708
00:22:33,885 --> 00:22:35,175
problem to begin with again.

709
00:22:35,325 --> 00:22:35,475
Right?

710
00:22:35,475 --> 00:22:37,935
We go in this with the, oh, you
know, we're 50 50 partners, so

711
00:22:37,935 --> 00:22:38,775
I guess everything is settled.

712
00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:41,284
That that's the least
of your concerns.

713
00:22:41,495 --> 00:22:43,655
Best case that's, you
know, that's settled.

714
00:22:43,955 --> 00:22:45,605
Uh, worst case is
even that's a problem.

715
00:22:45,935 --> 00:22:47,705
But, you know, as we're talking
about this, as we're talking

716
00:22:47,705 --> 00:22:50,165
to relationships, let's take
this over to spouses because

717
00:22:50,165 --> 00:22:52,115
I, I think we're gonna see
a lot of parallels here.

718
00:22:52,115 --> 00:22:52,175
Yeah.

719
00:22:52,715 --> 00:22:54,784
But what I would say, and
we said this at the top

720
00:22:54,784 --> 00:22:58,564
of the episode, spouses
are like the co-founders.

721
00:22:58,564 --> 00:22:59,615
No one talks about.

722
00:23:00,254 --> 00:23:02,445
For every founder there is
someone at home and, and

723
00:23:02,445 --> 00:23:04,365
we say spouse, it could
mean, you know, whatever

724
00:23:04,365 --> 00:23:05,475
your version at home is.

725
00:23:05,625 --> 00:23:07,485
Your, your emotional
support that isn't your

726
00:23:07,514 --> 00:23:08,565
direct coworker type thing.

727
00:23:08,565 --> 00:23:08,805
Right?

728
00:23:08,955 --> 00:23:10,995
But let's just use
spouses here for a second.

729
00:23:11,355 --> 00:23:13,695
One of the things that,
that we don't consider when

730
00:23:13,695 --> 00:23:17,774
we go into this is whether
or not our spouses are

731
00:23:17,774 --> 00:23:19,305
really on board with this.

732
00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:21,165
And I'll give you a a
very common example.

733
00:23:21,165 --> 00:23:23,625
A common example is a,
I'll use my own wife.

734
00:23:24,014 --> 00:23:26,985
Sarah just cares about
two things, safety and

735
00:23:26,985 --> 00:23:28,575
security, which are
kind of the same thing.

736
00:23:28,935 --> 00:23:29,265
Right.

737
00:23:29,625 --> 00:23:31,365
She does not wanna
rock the boat.

738
00:23:31,665 --> 00:23:34,395
Her answer to everything is
what's the safest answer?

739
00:23:34,635 --> 00:23:36,225
And, and that's already
my answer before you've

740
00:23:36,225 --> 00:23:37,245
even given me my options.

741
00:23:39,615 --> 00:23:43,215
Now, the irony here
that she married a guy.

742
00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,900
Who has done nothing
but roll the dice his

743
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:46,650
entire life, opposite's

744
00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:48,240
attract because it to be true.

745
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:48,600
Right.

746
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,980
It, it, it, it's unbelievable.

747
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,080
And when she, you know, when
we met each other, when we

748
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,120
got married, I was already
like 10 years in my career

749
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,130
as an entrepreneur and I
was all in entrepreneurs.

750
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,530
Clearly I was never gonna
have a day job, so to speak.

751
00:23:58,770 --> 00:23:59,280
So.

752
00:23:59,675 --> 00:24:01,534
She knew what she was
signing up for, but it

753
00:24:01,534 --> 00:24:03,064
hasn't changed her approach.

754
00:24:03,185 --> 00:24:05,495
She's not like, well, you
know, we've married 14 years.

755
00:24:05,645 --> 00:24:07,804
Like, it's not like
Sarah now is like, oh

756
00:24:07,804 --> 00:24:09,334
well, you know, screw it.

757
00:24:09,334 --> 00:24:10,145
Let's roll the dice.

758
00:24:10,175 --> 00:24:11,854
You know, her answer is
no different now than

759
00:24:11,854 --> 00:24:12,875
it was 14 years ago.

760
00:24:12,875 --> 00:24:13,445
David got married.

761
00:24:13,864 --> 00:24:18,274
When you look at this with Nagas
as she considers how dynamic

762
00:24:18,274 --> 00:24:21,725
what you do is and always had
been, how does she relate to it?

763
00:24:21,725 --> 00:24:24,034
Are you guys aligned on startup

764
00:24:24,034 --> 00:24:24,125
work?

765
00:24:24,125 --> 00:24:25,304
No, we're aligned in it.

766
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:26,970
This is what we're doing.

767
00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:29,850
Are we aligned in
terms of, of how we, we

768
00:24:29,850 --> 00:24:31,050
tolerate the pain of it?

769
00:24:31,199 --> 00:24:31,980
Absolutely not.

770
00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:32,639
Yeah.

771
00:24:32,639 --> 00:24:32,939
Right.

772
00:24:33,060 --> 00:24:35,310
Like it's, it's easy when
it's working well, right?

773
00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:35,939
It always is.

774
00:24:35,939 --> 00:24:37,110
I was just gonna
say the same thing.

775
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:37,590
Right.

776
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:39,120
I, I think that's, I
think that's an important

777
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:39,600
thing to think about.

778
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,919
And this, this goes
for co-founders.

779
00:24:40,919 --> 00:24:43,290
This goes for, for spouses,
your, your person, whoever that

780
00:24:43,290 --> 00:24:44,010
is, whatever that might be.

781
00:24:44,159 --> 00:24:46,290
With co-founders, we're,
we're dividing equity.

782
00:24:46,409 --> 00:24:48,360
The spouses were, were
not necessarily, I mean,

783
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,250
in under certain legal
circumstances sure.

784
00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:52,110
You're also dividing your
equity with them, but

785
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:53,820
you are dividing pain.

786
00:24:53,895 --> 00:24:53,985
Right.

787
00:24:54,915 --> 00:24:57,135
The tolerance of pain when
things aren't going well.

788
00:24:57,195 --> 00:24:57,405
Right.

789
00:24:57,405 --> 00:24:58,635
So when it's going
great, get easy.

790
00:24:58,635 --> 00:24:59,025
Yeah, who cares?

791
00:24:59,025 --> 00:24:59,530
It's not problem.

792
00:24:59,530 --> 00:25:02,504
It's easy to share the good
times when we're in the other

793
00:25:02,504 --> 00:25:04,215
95% of running a startup.

794
00:25:04,575 --> 00:25:06,075
It's not just about dividing
the pain, it's about the

795
00:25:06,075 --> 00:25:07,995
fact that even if we were to
divide the pain equally, pain

796
00:25:07,995 --> 00:25:09,675
tolerance isn't equal, right?

797
00:25:09,675 --> 00:25:11,745
Rarely are we, are we
able to tolerate the

798
00:25:11,745 --> 00:25:12,495
pain in the same ways?

799
00:25:12,945 --> 00:25:15,615
And I think that that's one of
the, the things that we see.

800
00:25:15,615 --> 00:25:18,940
I think that even the degree
that my wife and I are aligned.

801
00:25:19,675 --> 00:25:23,605
Nagas is tolerance for pain
around a specific kind of way.

802
00:25:23,635 --> 00:25:24,895
Anything that's a
threat to stability.

803
00:25:24,895 --> 00:25:25,885
So very much like Sarah.

804
00:25:25,885 --> 00:25:28,045
Anything that's a threat
to stability, uh, safety

805
00:25:28,045 --> 00:25:31,375
and security for our family
is going to have very

806
00:25:31,375 --> 00:25:32,695
little tolerance, right?

807
00:25:32,695 --> 00:25:34,315
That gets a Yelp really quick.

808
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:36,520
And this is from a woman who
did three natural childbirth.

809
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,140
So she doesn't, she
doesn't yelp easy.

810
00:25:38,260 --> 00:25:38,350
Right.

811
00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:41,710
So like she can
tolerate some pain.

812
00:25:41,710 --> 00:25:41,770
Yeah.

813
00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:43,540
But there are particular
types of pain that she's

814
00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:44,740
extremely susceptible to.

815
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:45,910
And that's, and
that's one of 'em.

816
00:25:45,910 --> 00:25:47,890
And I think that was one of
the things that I, I started

817
00:25:47,890 --> 00:25:51,130
to realize is like, to me,
the startup is so closely

818
00:25:51,130 --> 00:25:54,550
tied to my identity and,
and to her, it's not right.

819
00:25:54,580 --> 00:25:56,770
It, it's just an existential.

820
00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,280
Threat to stability
in a lot of ways.

821
00:25:59,550 --> 00:25:59,760
Now.

822
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,620
It also, it also does
provide, it also does

823
00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:02,129
a lot of other things.

824
00:26:02,129 --> 00:26:03,689
It it does, it does some
wonderful things too.

825
00:26:03,929 --> 00:26:06,480
But I think that there is always
this sense that it is very much

826
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,080
a sword that, that that cuts
both ways and that there's a

827
00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:12,780
very, very strong fear around
it, cutting that direction.

828
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,139
One of the things that's been
really successful for me with

829
00:26:16,139 --> 00:26:20,665
my wife has been repeating out
loud what our differences are.

830
00:26:21,855 --> 00:26:22,005
Yeah.

831
00:26:22,305 --> 00:26:24,375
And, and lemme spin and
not to be confrontational,

832
00:26:24,375 --> 00:26:25,125
to be reassuring.

833
00:26:25,365 --> 00:26:27,375
So when we're doing something
and I'm always, you know,

834
00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:29,385
you, you've been in this
for me for a long time.

835
00:26:29,385 --> 00:26:31,545
I'm always doing something
frigging weird when

836
00:26:31,545 --> 00:26:32,385
I tell her about it.

837
00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:33,510
Not inaccurate.

838
00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:33,930
Yeah.

839
00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:38,730
When I tell her about it, she is
like, huh, well that's an idea.

840
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:39,870
Yes.

841
00:26:41,265 --> 00:26:43,620
That's, that's, you
had a thought it's

842
00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:44,790
something you could do.

843
00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:45,480
Right.

844
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,920
Please don't tell me
you've already done it.

845
00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:47,580
And so,

846
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,090
yes,

847
00:26:49,890 --> 00:26:51,930
but, but did you say
theoretically, please?

848
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:52,740
Yeah, exactly.

849
00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:53,220
Exactly.

850
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,230
So here's what I
always open up with.

851
00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:57,325
I always say, look, while
we have shared goals.

852
00:26:58,030 --> 00:26:59,410
Uh, in life, you
know, as a family.

853
00:26:59,470 --> 00:26:59,650
Sure.

854
00:26:59,650 --> 00:27:01,870
I understand that some of
these goals are just my goals.

855
00:27:01,870 --> 00:27:02,890
You mentioned it a second ago.

856
00:27:02,890 --> 00:27:04,570
You talked about kinda
like your ownership and

857
00:27:04,570 --> 00:27:05,530
the, and the outcome.

858
00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:05,860
Yep.

859
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:06,550
Your identity.

860
00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:09,190
Those are things that are
important to you and I,

861
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,400
but they don't necessarily
matter to our wives, right?

862
00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:12,730
Yeah.

863
00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:14,080
Like, here's an example, Ryan.

864
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,590
If you and I service a
million founders or 10 million

865
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:20,380
founders, we're gonna have
some sort of reaction to it.

866
00:27:20,390 --> 00:27:20,480
Yes.

867
00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:23,150
Like there's some, it's gonna
spark something inside us.

868
00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:26,300
Everything from pride
to reassurance to, uh,

869
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:27,080
you, you name it, right?

870
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,610
Like all these,
these good emotions.

871
00:27:28,910 --> 00:27:31,970
My wife doesn't give a shit,
nor should she, by the way.

872
00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:32,480
Right.

873
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,775
She wouldn't even
know it's, it's the

874
00:27:33,775 --> 00:27:34,160
same.

875
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,240
Oh, wow.

876
00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:38,540
Whether it's 10, a
hundred, a billion.

877
00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:38,630
Right.

878
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:38,780
It's no

879
00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:39,830
context for it.

880
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:42,050
And again, nor should
she, but this is my point.

881
00:27:42,050 --> 00:27:42,140
Right.

882
00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:42,395
Why would she.

883
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,120
Whenever we go down one of these
paths, when we're having these

884
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,780
discussions, I always like kind
of zoom out and I say, look, I

885
00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:51,870
understand that, that my goals
and my aspirations are different

886
00:27:51,870 --> 00:27:54,750
than yours now hopefully the
result of my aspirations help

887
00:27:54,750 --> 00:27:56,100
with your aspirations, right?

888
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:56,580
Yeah.

889
00:27:56,610 --> 00:27:56,850
But,

890
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,380
but, but, but
they're not the same.

891
00:27:58,650 --> 00:28:01,440
So it's not fair for me to
say, for me to say, well, why

892
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,490
don't you just back me up?

893
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,050
'cause our goals
aren't the same.

894
00:28:04,709 --> 00:28:07,560
Like, I'm trying to do
dumb shit in hopes that it

895
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,540
will make money, you know,
which will help our family.

896
00:28:10,229 --> 00:28:12,540
But there's a lot of ways
to make money that are a

897
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:14,550
lot more safe than, than
what I'm gonna go do.

898
00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,469
And I'm choosing not to do them.

899
00:28:16,649 --> 00:28:19,379
So by default we're,
we're not aligned.

900
00:28:19,679 --> 00:28:22,409
And when she hears that,
it doesn't mean she

901
00:28:22,469 --> 00:28:23,820
instantly agrees with me.

902
00:28:24,449 --> 00:28:28,320
But I think it goes for miles
to hear that someone understands

903
00:28:28,409 --> 00:28:29,340
why you're not aligned

904
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:30,645
as we're saying this now.

905
00:28:31,425 --> 00:28:34,125
I'm wondering if the if, I
mean, clearly we've sort of

906
00:28:34,125 --> 00:28:36,555
said that like hoping for
alignment might be part of

907
00:28:36,555 --> 00:28:37,935
the problem in the beginning.

908
00:28:37,935 --> 00:28:40,875
Because when we start to talk
about misalignment, and I'm not

909
00:28:40,875 --> 00:28:42,135
even sure that's fair, right?

910
00:28:42,135 --> 00:28:44,055
Because we aren't
necessarily misaligned.

911
00:28:44,475 --> 00:28:48,285
Misaligned suggests that
we were supposed to be

912
00:28:48,555 --> 00:28:49,485
Oh, it's on the exact

913
00:28:49,635 --> 00:28:50,355
same axis.

914
00:28:50,505 --> 00:28:50,715
Yeah.

915
00:28:50,745 --> 00:28:50,955
Right.

916
00:28:50,955 --> 00:28:52,545
And it somehow we veered off.

917
00:28:52,815 --> 00:28:55,575
The word that's springing to
mind now for me is asymmetry.

918
00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:58,890
Asymmetry, acknowledges that
we're operating on different

919
00:28:58,890 --> 00:29:00,360
planes entirely, right?

920
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,460
Like we're you and I are
operating versus where our

921
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:04,230
spouses are operating, right?

922
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:07,320
Where there are some common
goals, we are doing things

923
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,040
on entirely different planes,
different vectors, right?

924
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,420
Again, maybe a shared outcome.

925
00:29:12,420 --> 00:29:15,060
Keep family alive the way
you and I are doing that, and

926
00:29:15,060 --> 00:29:16,170
the way they're doing that.

927
00:29:16,170 --> 00:29:17,430
Completely different things.

928
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:17,700
Absolutely.

929
00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:20,040
It's different stakes,
different consequences.

930
00:29:20,399 --> 00:29:22,139
Different time
horizons too, right?

931
00:29:22,139 --> 00:29:25,409
Because there are decisions
you and I are making that have

932
00:29:25,409 --> 00:29:28,350
like these in our own minds,
these far reaching consequences.

933
00:29:28,350 --> 00:29:30,810
Like, I'm gonna start doing this
thing now that maybe will pay

934
00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:32,219
off long time down the road.

935
00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:32,580
Right?

936
00:29:32,580 --> 00:29:35,159
And they're like,
how do we manage, you

937
00:29:35,159 --> 00:29:35,939
know, children today?

938
00:29:35,939 --> 00:29:37,770
How do we manage the
safety of the family today?

939
00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:39,725
Oh, they're also thinking
long term as well.

940
00:29:40,199 --> 00:29:43,050
I also think the other problem
with with misalignment, just

941
00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:46,350
as a concept, now that I'm
thinking through it, is that.

942
00:29:46,725 --> 00:29:49,335
Somehow it implies it
can be fixed with better

943
00:29:49,335 --> 00:29:51,555
communication or realignment.

944
00:29:51,555 --> 00:29:53,925
Whereas asymmetry says,
this is structural.

945
00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:56,295
This is literally how
this thing was built, and

946
00:29:56,295 --> 00:29:57,825
it's gonna stay this way.

947
00:29:58,365 --> 00:30:00,465
All we can do is sort
of acknowledge, right?

948
00:30:00,465 --> 00:30:02,055
I think to your point,
acknowledge, let's just

949
00:30:02,055 --> 00:30:04,905
acknowledge, let's just
acknowledge the fact that we

950
00:30:04,935 --> 00:30:07,514
are dealing with an asymmetric
situation or a misalignment.

951
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,070
I think that's about as close
as we can get, isn't it?

952
00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:14,040
Right now, at, at this stage
in our life, me being in,

953
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,770
in my now early fifties and,
and, and you around the corner

954
00:30:16,770 --> 00:30:18,360
to them coming right up.

955
00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:23,190
We are at a stage in life
where all of our peer groups

956
00:30:23,490 --> 00:30:24,750
are roughly at the same age.

957
00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:26,670
And I, and I know this applies
to folks listening, so I'm gonna

958
00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:27,720
be sensitive when I say this.

959
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,270
This is that era where
everybody starts to second

960
00:30:30,270 --> 00:30:31,080
guess their marriages.

961
00:30:31,785 --> 00:30:34,065
Just, just fundamentally,
the kids are a certain

962
00:30:34,065 --> 00:30:36,225
age, the marriages of a
certain age where everyone's

963
00:30:36,225 --> 00:30:37,185
like, shit, is this it?

964
00:30:37,395 --> 00:30:39,645
And I have conversations
with all my friends around

965
00:30:39,645 --> 00:30:40,305
this and, and Right.

966
00:30:40,575 --> 00:30:43,185
I've got a massive friend group.

967
00:30:43,635 --> 00:30:44,445
A massive friend group.

968
00:30:44,445 --> 00:30:45,795
I know you have a
huge friend group too.

969
00:30:46,305 --> 00:30:49,695
And I gotta tell you, all the
couples that Sarah and I know,

970
00:30:49,815 --> 00:30:51,735
and we're talking hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds and

971
00:30:51,735 --> 00:30:54,525
hundreds of couples, we can't
name three that are happy,

972
00:30:54,795 --> 00:30:55,905
that are, that are aligned.

973
00:30:56,774 --> 00:30:57,254
That's a pity.

974
00:30:57,254 --> 00:30:57,975
That's fucked up.

975
00:30:58,395 --> 00:30:58,695
Okay.

976
00:30:58,725 --> 00:30:58,995
Yeah.

977
00:30:59,024 --> 00:31:03,915
However, however, it
also goes to point to

978
00:31:03,915 --> 00:31:05,385
how hard this is, right?

979
00:31:05,385 --> 00:31:07,965
I think in the early days
we go into this being like,

980
00:31:08,114 --> 00:31:09,405
well, I wanna be rich.

981
00:31:09,405 --> 00:31:10,965
You wanna be rich,
you know, blah, blah.

982
00:31:11,084 --> 00:31:12,135
Like, we're lying, right?

983
00:31:12,344 --> 00:31:12,915
As if

984
00:31:12,915 --> 00:31:14,655
that's, that's the
end of it, right?

985
00:31:14,774 --> 00:31:16,574
Again, man, but look,
think about it though.

986
00:31:16,574 --> 00:31:19,784
Like just from a, just go to a
pure mathematical state, right?

987
00:31:20,145 --> 00:31:22,755
At the origin point,
everything's aligned.

988
00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:25,395
It's the second you start to
move further, that that's when

989
00:31:25,395 --> 00:31:27,495
the line, it can't diverge
until that when we're at

990
00:31:27,495 --> 00:31:29,295
zero, everyone's aligned.

991
00:31:29,295 --> 00:31:29,475
Right?

992
00:31:29,475 --> 00:31:30,225
It's easy.

993
00:31:30,225 --> 00:31:31,365
It's, it's, of course we are.

994
00:31:31,575 --> 00:31:34,755
When I was a little kid, I, I
would, uh, walk up to another

995
00:31:34,785 --> 00:31:37,155
little kid, doesn't matter
where we were, and I'm like,

996
00:31:37,575 --> 00:31:38,715
I like Mike Tyson's punch out.

997
00:31:38,715 --> 00:31:40,275
He is like, I like my
Tyson as a punch out.

998
00:31:40,365 --> 00:31:40,875
Let's be best

999
00:31:40,875 --> 00:31:41,265
friends.

1000
00:31:41,295 --> 00:31:41,985
Let's be best friends.

1001
00:31:42,055 --> 00:31:42,145
That

1002
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:43,480
was, it.

1003
00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:45,205
Did, was there another
way to meet children

1004
00:31:45,205 --> 00:31:47,155
between 1986 and 1990?

1005
00:31:47,185 --> 00:31:49,255
No, and, and, and just
like I didn't use one.

1006
00:31:49,525 --> 00:31:50,815
I watch it with my son now.

1007
00:31:50,815 --> 00:31:51,925
It's the exact same thing.

1008
00:31:51,925 --> 00:31:52,165
Right?

1009
00:31:52,165 --> 00:31:52,480
He is.

1010
00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:54,025
He is like, I like Fortnite.

1011
00:31:54,025 --> 00:31:55,465
Is the other kid's
like, I like Fortnite.

1012
00:31:55,525 --> 00:31:56,485
We're best friends, right?

1013
00:31:57,325 --> 00:31:57,655
Yep.

1014
00:31:58,555 --> 00:32:00,625
So the point is, to your
point, we get this origin.

1015
00:32:01,024 --> 00:32:04,110
We're both on the same page,
but we haven't introduced any

1016
00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:05,189
of the other, the factors.

1017
00:32:05,729 --> 00:32:08,939
But I think what happens is
because we fail to realize those

1018
00:32:09,149 --> 00:32:12,389
really important nuances, we
don't acknowledge 'em, which I

1019
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:14,459
think is important for all these
categories we're talking about.

1020
00:32:14,459 --> 00:32:18,479
I think acknowledging it is
by far the biggest part, and I

1021
00:32:18,479 --> 00:32:21,179
would say one part of that is
acknowledging it to yourself.

1022
00:32:21,255 --> 00:32:22,695
And being, being okay.

1023
00:32:22,695 --> 00:32:24,585
Like, 'cause a lot of people
will be like, oh well that

1024
00:32:24,585 --> 00:32:26,535
person doesn't work as
hard as I do, so fuck them.

1025
00:32:26,715 --> 00:32:28,245
Like, no dude like that.

1026
00:32:28,245 --> 00:32:30,225
That's the broken, probably
not premise that like, that's

1027
00:32:30,225 --> 00:32:31,215
why you're never gonna work.

1028
00:32:31,215 --> 00:32:31,845
Make this work.

1029
00:32:31,845 --> 00:32:32,145
Right.

1030
00:32:32,835 --> 00:32:34,725
The second part about
it is communicating that

1031
00:32:34,725 --> 00:32:37,605
acknowledgement to them,
Hey, I understand why you

1032
00:32:37,605 --> 00:32:38,685
don't work on Saturday.

1033
00:32:38,745 --> 00:32:39,795
Honestly, I have to do it.

1034
00:32:39,825 --> 00:32:41,175
'cause my consequences
are higher.

1035
00:32:41,295 --> 00:32:41,865
You don't.

1036
00:32:41,925 --> 00:32:42,135
Yep.

1037
00:32:42,375 --> 00:32:44,085
But if you would, you'd
be doing me a huge favor.

1038
00:32:44,085 --> 00:32:44,145
Yeah.

1039
00:32:44,325 --> 00:32:47,085
That is way different than, why
aren't you working on Saturday?

1040
00:32:47,475 --> 00:32:48,405
You create the acknowledgement.

1041
00:32:48,615 --> 00:32:49,514
Same thing with my wife.

1042
00:32:49,785 --> 00:32:53,445
Hey, I think we should go risk
our personal money as a family

1043
00:32:53,865 --> 00:32:57,375
on investing in this initiative,
but I know that there's a lot of

1044
00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:58,785
places we could put that money.

1045
00:32:59,129 --> 00:33:01,800
This is probably a riskier
one that I feel good about.

1046
00:33:01,860 --> 00:33:03,330
That makes no sense to you.

1047
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:04,500
So I'll understand.

1048
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:05,340
If you're hesitant.

1049
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:06,840
It's not an affront to me.

1050
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:09,629
It's because your risk
tolerance, your needs,

1051
00:33:09,629 --> 00:33:11,370
your outcomes are
different than mine.

1052
00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:11,460
Right.

1053
00:33:11,699 --> 00:33:14,100
So there's no version where
I can come to you and say,

1054
00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:15,540
what's wrong with you?

1055
00:33:15,929 --> 00:33:17,790
I, I should already
know that going in.

1056
00:33:17,850 --> 00:33:18,030
Yeah.

1057
00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:20,429
If I've got like, you know,
any, any level of empathy.

1058
00:33:20,699 --> 00:33:21,030
Yeah.

1059
00:33:21,179 --> 00:33:22,889
You know, it's, it's interesting
'cause I think sometimes.

1060
00:33:23,254 --> 00:33:25,145
There truly are times where
we're just looking at the same

1061
00:33:25,145 --> 00:33:29,254
problem differently, but I feel
like with this mal-alignment

1062
00:33:29,254 --> 00:33:32,885
or this asymmetry, that it's
not just that we're looking at

1063
00:33:32,885 --> 00:33:35,885
the same problem differently,
we're we're actually looking

1064
00:33:35,885 --> 00:33:36,995
at different problems, right?

1065
00:33:36,995 --> 00:33:40,085
We have the same circumstances,
but we're actually looking at

1066
00:33:40,085 --> 00:33:42,245
different problems, meaning
that the, the outcome that

1067
00:33:42,245 --> 00:33:44,615
they're most concerned about on
the other side of this thing.

1068
00:33:45,435 --> 00:33:47,325
Is different than, than
what we're looking at.

1069
00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:47,565
Right, right.

1070
00:33:47,565 --> 00:33:50,235
So the problem being a conduit
to whatever that transformation

1071
00:33:50,235 --> 00:33:53,655
of the future looks like, that's
where the, the difference is.

1072
00:33:53,655 --> 00:33:57,554
And I think that's, for me, it
was a hard recognition to have.

1073
00:33:57,554 --> 00:33:59,024
Like I had to all, all
of a sudden understand

1074
00:33:59,024 --> 00:33:59,625
and acknowledge that.

1075
00:33:59,625 --> 00:34:04,425
It's like there are times where
when co-founders, employees,

1076
00:34:04,429 --> 00:34:07,000
staff, friends, wife, children.

1077
00:34:07,935 --> 00:34:10,634
It wasn't that we were looking
at the problem differently,

1078
00:34:10,784 --> 00:34:13,245
it was that we were literally
looking at different problems.

1079
00:34:13,245 --> 00:34:15,134
Like we were just
fundamentally wanting to

1080
00:34:15,134 --> 00:34:17,565
go and do different things
from this new origin point.

1081
00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:17,715
Yeah.

1082
00:34:17,715 --> 00:34:19,755
I that where the problem is
now all of a sudden we're,

1083
00:34:19,755 --> 00:34:20,654
we're diverging there.

1084
00:34:21,134 --> 00:34:23,594
That's something you just
kind of have to respect.

1085
00:34:23,594 --> 00:34:25,154
There's not much
way around that.

1086
00:34:25,275 --> 00:34:25,545
Right.

1087
00:34:25,574 --> 00:34:27,705
Well, sort of trying to
just literally realign

1088
00:34:27,705 --> 00:34:28,634
people to make them you,

1089
00:34:29,114 --> 00:34:29,985
which, well, okay.

1090
00:34:29,985 --> 00:34:30,554
That's what I'm saying.

1091
00:34:30,554 --> 00:34:30,764
Right.

1092
00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:33,375
Like I, I went through probably
the first decade of my, of

1093
00:34:33,375 --> 00:34:35,415
my career frustrated Yeah.

1094
00:34:35,415 --> 00:34:36,764
That everyone wasn't.

1095
00:34:37,209 --> 00:34:38,350
On my plan.

1096
00:34:38,589 --> 00:34:42,669
And, and so I kept trying to
like force feed all of these

1097
00:34:42,669 --> 00:34:46,089
people into, into my version
of how I thought things should

1098
00:34:46,089 --> 00:34:49,330
go, and then being continually
frustrated every single time

1099
00:34:49,540 --> 00:34:50,649
that they weren't going my way.

1100
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:53,889
And that's not the same as
saying, well then I just

1101
00:34:53,889 --> 00:34:55,000
defer to everybody every time.

1102
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,230
That's, that's not
the same thing.

1103
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:56,709
Sure.

1104
00:34:56,709 --> 00:34:59,319
But if, if you were to say,
Hey, my way or the highway

1105
00:34:59,439 --> 00:35:03,160
that ends poorly, yes, you
can force enough things, but

1106
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,600
eventually that will break

1107
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:05,080
for sure.

1108
00:35:05,895 --> 00:35:09,345
Because if you manufacture
alignments, you somehow

1109
00:35:09,345 --> 00:35:10,815
cobble it together, right?

1110
00:35:11,385 --> 00:35:12,915
It's gonna bend
back outta shape.

1111
00:35:12,915 --> 00:35:13,185
Right?

1112
00:35:13,185 --> 00:35:14,955
The type of alignment will fade.

1113
00:35:15,465 --> 00:35:17,355
Uh, the thing I
like, empathy lasts.

1114
00:35:17,355 --> 00:35:18,975
We know this, so if
you can't, it's point.

1115
00:35:18,975 --> 00:35:23,025
Always share the same goals, at
least share the understanding

1116
00:35:23,385 --> 00:35:25,065
right, of those differences.

1117
00:35:25,275 --> 00:35:27,675
Then I think you, you've
got, you got something

1118
00:35:27,675 --> 00:35:28,245
you can build from.

1119
00:35:28,245 --> 00:35:28,785
At that point,

1120
00:35:28,965 --> 00:35:30,735
I always say, you
cannot change people.

1121
00:35:30,735 --> 00:35:32,565
You can only change your
understanding of people.

1122
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:36,240
And so I'm not gonna
change my wife to be this

1123
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:38,010
risk taking maverick.

1124
00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:38,430
Right.

1125
00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:40,050
This is not going to happen.

1126
00:35:40,110 --> 00:35:40,410
Right.

1127
00:35:40,590 --> 00:35:43,260
And by the way, who the
hell am I to even suggest

1128
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:44,160
that she should change?

1129
00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:44,670
Right.

1130
00:35:44,675 --> 00:35:44,855
Right.

1131
00:35:44,855 --> 00:35:47,010
That, that would, that
could actually go perfectly

1132
00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:47,580
horribly for

1133
00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:47,640
me.

1134
00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:48,120
Right.

1135
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:48,690
For all we know,

1136
00:35:48,810 --> 00:35:48,930
right?

1137
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,130
I my only control valve.

1138
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:53,220
But I can change my
understanding by saying, Hey,

1139
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:54,660
this is what makes my wife tick.

1140
00:35:54,665 --> 00:35:56,730
These, these are the
things that concern her.

1141
00:35:56,730 --> 00:35:58,290
These are the things
that excite her, right?

1142
00:35:58,290 --> 00:36:00,750
Like and understand that,
that when I bring to the

1143
00:36:00,750 --> 00:36:04,470
table shit that concerns
her, I shouldn't expect a

1144
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:05,970
high five answer, right?

1145
00:36:05,970 --> 00:36:07,000
I should expect right.

1146
00:36:07,305 --> 00:36:09,075
A pushback because
that's who she is.

1147
00:36:09,195 --> 00:36:12,225
Conversely, when she has a
conversation with me, she

1148
00:36:12,225 --> 00:36:15,075
should know that my answer is
gonna be, fuck it, risk it all.

1149
00:36:15,195 --> 00:36:16,845
Like, let's see
what happens, right?

1150
00:36:16,905 --> 00:36:17,715
Let's see what happens,

1151
00:36:17,895 --> 00:36:18,105
right?

1152
00:36:18,105 --> 00:36:20,565
Let's see what happens, because
I'm okay with that because

1153
00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:23,085
I, yeah, I'm okay with what
happens on the other side of us.

1154
00:36:23,085 --> 00:36:23,625
See what happens.

1155
00:36:23,625 --> 00:36:24,465
'cause I always figure it out.

1156
00:36:24,795 --> 00:36:27,345
But again, I think what's
killed me for a long time,

1157
00:36:27,345 --> 00:36:28,935
I get it now, which is why
we're talking about this now.

1158
00:36:29,415 --> 00:36:31,875
What killed me for a long time
was one, not acknowledging

1159
00:36:31,875 --> 00:36:33,135
myself in the second.

1160
00:36:33,315 --> 00:36:34,515
I wasn't good.

1161
00:36:35,174 --> 00:36:35,654
I am now.

1162
00:36:35,654 --> 00:36:38,384
I wasn't good at saying
I understand where you're

1163
00:36:38,384 --> 00:36:40,064
coming from, Uhhuh.

1164
00:36:40,064 --> 00:36:42,825
I understand why what I'm asking
is antithetical to how you're

1165
00:36:42,825 --> 00:36:44,685
built, and I recognize that.

1166
00:36:45,044 --> 00:36:48,044
I would say my batting average
for people giving me the same

1167
00:36:48,044 --> 00:36:49,725
consideration is almost zero.

1168
00:36:50,564 --> 00:36:51,015
Yeah.

1169
00:36:51,555 --> 00:36:52,754
I didn't say it work
the other way too.

1170
00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:53,654
The other way too.

1171
00:36:53,654 --> 00:36:55,785
Well, I haven't had an
employee come to me and say,

1172
00:36:55,785 --> 00:36:58,335
you know, will I understand
that your consequences are

1173
00:36:58,335 --> 00:37:01,095
pretty significant and mine
really aren't that high, so

1174
00:37:01,095 --> 00:37:03,105
I'm gonna work a little bit
harder just to help you out.

1175
00:37:03,705 --> 00:37:04,334
Pretty much heard that.

1176
00:37:04,334 --> 00:37:04,515
Never,

1177
00:37:05,145 --> 00:37:05,475
yeah.

1178
00:37:05,475 --> 00:37:06,524
I don't think I've
heard that one.

1179
00:37:06,584 --> 00:37:07,455
I don't think I've
heard that one.

1180
00:37:07,830 --> 00:37:11,340
No, but look, that goes back to
understanding and acknowledging

1181
00:37:11,340 --> 00:37:12,270
and respecting that difference.

1182
00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:14,190
There's, there's a reason
they're not saying that to you.

1183
00:37:14,370 --> 00:37:14,820
Right?

1184
00:37:14,820 --> 00:37:14,830
Right.

1185
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:15,480
Yeah.

1186
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,000
There's, there's a fundamental,
there's not a reason for them

1187
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,375
to say that to you, I guess
is a different way to put it.

1188
00:37:19,375 --> 00:37:19,860
Great way to put it.

1189
00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:20,400
Great to put it, yeah.

1190
00:37:20,730 --> 00:37:22,830
And so I think that,
yeah, go ahead.

1191
00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:25,290
I was gonna say, so like, you
know, I used to think that like,

1192
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,430
with alignment, it was, I just
needed to convince everyone

1193
00:37:29,790 --> 00:37:31,560
that my way was the way to go.

1194
00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:34,280
Not, not being like, like a
jerk about it, but just like

1195
00:37:34,315 --> 00:37:36,860
I, I thought, I thought that
was my job was to convince

1196
00:37:36,860 --> 00:37:38,720
like the team that this
was, you know, the future

1197
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:39,710
path to work really hard.

1198
00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:42,290
All these things, and I realize
just a little bit of it is.

1199
00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:43,680
But like 10%.

1200
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:44,310
Right, right.

1201
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:46,920
Like enough to say, Hey,
just by the way, here's the

1202
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:47,880
direction I'd like to go.

1203
00:37:48,330 --> 00:37:51,150
The other 90% of like making
them do it because I wanted

1204
00:37:51,150 --> 00:37:53,250
them to didn't, never went well.

1205
00:37:53,250 --> 00:37:53,610
Like it.

1206
00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:54,299
No.

1207
00:37:54,299 --> 00:37:54,450
I dunno

1208
00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:55,890
how people think that worked.

1209
00:37:55,890 --> 00:37:56,145
Well, no,

1210
00:37:56,145 --> 00:37:57,150
I, I think we have to stop.

1211
00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:59,490
You just have to, at some point
you just have to stop trying to.

1212
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,420
Erase or correct
the misalignment.

1213
00:38:01,420 --> 00:38:04,930
I think now asymmetry
is literally architected

1214
00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:05,980
into a founder's life.

1215
00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:08,890
Like what we are trying to do by
its nature is asymmetric, right?

1216
00:38:08,890 --> 00:38:11,290
We're trying to take something
and it's nothing and make

1217
00:38:11,290 --> 00:38:12,250
it into something huge.

1218
00:38:12,250 --> 00:38:12,430
Right?

1219
00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:14,110
Asymmetry at its at,
its its best, right?

1220
00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:16,509
We're gonna just absolutely
try to, to scale something.

1221
00:38:16,810 --> 00:38:19,509
I think the real trick is not
letting it break relationships

1222
00:38:19,509 --> 00:38:22,420
as we go, because I think
that perfect alignment is,

1223
00:38:22,420 --> 00:38:24,160
is it's, it's a myth, right?

1224
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,205
I don't think it's
something we even.

1225
00:38:25,655 --> 00:38:27,815
Can force function evenly.

1226
00:38:27,935 --> 00:38:29,405
Not if we try really hard
think, we'll break ourselves

1227
00:38:29,405 --> 00:38:32,915
doing it mutual respect,
like that's always in style.

1228
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:32,980
Right?

1229
00:38:32,985 --> 00:38:33,245
Right.

1230
00:38:33,245 --> 00:38:36,305
That's how you keep building,
um, to the point where you

1231
00:38:36,305 --> 00:38:37,475
maybe you do reach alignment.

1232
00:38:37,475 --> 00:38:39,545
'cause again, it's really easy
to be aligned in the good times.

1233
00:38:39,815 --> 00:38:40,055
Right.

1234
00:38:40,055 --> 00:38:40,205
Right.

1235
00:38:40,205 --> 00:38:40,620
You gotta get there.

1236
00:38:40,985 --> 00:38:43,775
No one's ever had a, a huge
problem because we're making

1237
00:38:43,775 --> 00:38:45,575
so much money and we just
don't know where to put it.

1238
00:38:45,580 --> 00:38:46,025
Right, right.

1239
00:38:46,025 --> 00:38:47,255
And if you do no.

1240
00:38:47,255 --> 00:38:48,155
In the brown bags.

1241
00:38:48,155 --> 00:38:48,395
No.

1242
00:38:48,395 --> 00:38:48,905
In the green

1243
00:38:48,905 --> 00:38:49,385
bags.

1244
00:38:49,415 --> 00:38:49,685
Ha.

1245
00:38:49,685 --> 00:38:49,985
Happy.

1246
00:38:50,015 --> 00:38:50,825
Oh, you know what's so funny?

1247
00:38:50,945 --> 00:38:53,375
This just reminds me of
the dumbest story, Ponzi,

1248
00:38:53,375 --> 00:38:54,965
I can't remember the guy's
first name, but like Jeffrey

1249
00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:55,565
or something like that.

1250
00:38:55,775 --> 00:38:57,695
Ponzi actually had this problem.

1251
00:38:57,755 --> 00:38:59,465
You know, the Ponzi scheme
comes from a guy named,

1252
00:38:59,495 --> 00:39:00,485
uh, last name Ponzi.

1253
00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:04,350
And, and as the the myth goes,
there was a time that Ponzi was

1254
00:39:04,350 --> 00:39:07,920
making so much money that his
issue was, he couldn't figure

1255
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,930
out where to put it 'cause
he couldn't put it in a bank.

1256
00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:12,000
So he was like stacking
it in apartments or

1257
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:12,690
something like that.

1258
00:39:12,690 --> 00:39:12,900
Like

1259
00:39:13,230 --> 00:39:13,500
yeah.

1260
00:39:13,740 --> 00:39:14,310
Oh, that's amazing.

1261
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:15,420
My rats and all that.

1262
00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:16,529
Yeah, yeah,

1263
00:39:16,529 --> 00:39:16,580
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1264
00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:19,230
Oh yeah, that was, um, that
was, I suppose in extreme

1265
00:39:19,230 --> 00:39:21,390
cases it could also
cause fighting.

1266
00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:22,799
But I guess the point, you
have so much money, you

1267
00:39:22,799 --> 00:39:24,330
don't know where to put it,
and the rats are eating it.

1268
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,310
You're probably not
fighting about money.

1269
00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:26,400
Yeah.

1270
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,029
You're gonna be okay.

1271
00:39:27,029 --> 00:39:27,570
You're gonna be okay.

1272
00:39:27,870 --> 00:39:28,080
So,

1273
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,850
so here, here's what I'd
say like for all of us

1274
00:39:29,850 --> 00:39:31,590
that, that are trying to
like fight this battle.

1275
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,020
The way to win this battle
is to fight it less.

1276
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,920
The way to win this battle is
to zoom out and say, here are

1277
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,090
the things that I can control.

1278
00:39:39,090 --> 00:39:40,410
Way less than any of us think.

1279
00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:40,890
Think it is.

1280
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:42,450
And here's the things
I can't control.

1281
00:39:42,540 --> 00:39:44,460
The reality is you can
control your own perception.

1282
00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:45,720
You can't control other people.

1283
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:48,600
So if we want alignment,
alignment has to come from.

1284
00:39:48,735 --> 00:39:51,735
Our understanding of what
can be controlled in.

1285
00:39:51,735 --> 00:39:54,555
And by way of that, what can
be compromised in what can't.

1286
00:39:54,884 --> 00:39:56,955
And the sooner we get to
that point, the sooner we

1287
00:39:56,955 --> 00:39:58,515
kinda like take our hands
off the wheel for a second.

1288
00:39:58,515 --> 00:40:00,465
It's like, you know what, I'm
not gonna get everything I

1289
00:40:00,465 --> 00:40:01,575
want out of every everyone.

1290
00:40:01,575 --> 00:40:04,185
So I wanna get as much
as I can out of everyone.

1291
00:40:04,425 --> 00:40:06,585
That will be the only
thing that will ever get,

1292
00:40:06,585 --> 00:40:09,495
that will get even close
to a perfect alignment.

1293
00:40:10,545 --> 00:40:12,375
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.

1294
00:40:12,795 --> 00:40:15,645
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,

1295
00:40:15,705 --> 00:40:18,765
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.

1296
00:40:18,885 --> 00:40:21,195
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1297
00:40:21,195 --> 00:40:23,625
helping them win in the
startups.com community.

1298
00:40:23,775 --> 00:40:28,425
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com

1299
00:40:28,545 --> 00:40:29,445
to see if it's for you.

1300
00:40:29,685 --> 00:40:30,735
Could be just the
thing you need.

1301
00:40:30,945 --> 00:40:31,935
I hope to see you inside.