Garbo Talks === ​[00:00:00] Claire Fisher: Hello and welcome to Carried Far, far Away, a podcast project where we are watching and reading everything that Carrie Fisher did during her short life and storied career. I'm Claire Fisher. Katie Marinello: Katie Marinello Claire Fisher: Today we are talking about Katie Marinello: Garbo Talks, which I kept writing as Garbo Speaks. Claire Fisher: mixing up Harpo and Garbo. Katie Marinello: Yes, a hundred percent. I a hundred percent. Thought this was gonna be about one of the Marx brothers. Claire Fisher: It's not at Katie Marinello: It is not about any of the Marx Brothers. Claire Fisher: Why don't you in 54 seconds or less, tell our listeners what it is about. Katie Marinello: Sure. Carrie Fisher plays Lisa Rolf, a California native from a wealthy family living in New York City with her husband Gilbert. Her mother-in-law Estelle is an outspoken social activist whose behavior gets her in trouble up to and including being arrested. Despite his consternation about her behavior and Lisa expressing a near constant desire to return to California, the couple seems [00:01:00] to have a decent relationship with both Estelle and Gilbert's father and stepmother. Unfortunately, Estelle is diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor, and she expresses to Gilbert that she wants to meet Greta Garbo, the actress. She has idolized her whole life. Lisa is initially empathetic to this quest, but after Gilbert begins missing work, takes on a second more working class job and spends their entire savings searching for the elusive actress. Lisa's had enough and she leaves him. Gilbert takes absolutely no time to lick his wounds and starts up a romance with his coworker Jane, who assists him on his search for Garbo. He finally finds her at a flea market where she silently follows him to his mother's bedside. After his mother dies, he quits his job and is walking in the park with Jane when he runs into Garbo again, who just says hello? Claire Fisher: For context, you know how famous our mother is in this podcast network. Jane Mortimer is our mother. I don't know if you noticed. In 1984. She's an aspiring actress with a somewhat dull day job who's trying out for things with the Public Theater, Katie Marinello: ah. Claire Fisher: and she does the cork between your Lips. Lippi. Katie Marinello: Yes. That I, yeah. Claire Fisher: [00:02:00] That mom trained us on when we were small. Yeah. Our, Our mother's in this movie, mama, Katie Marinello: That makes me feel better about that character. Claire Fisher: and she ends up dating, , a, a guy who was working for a corporation like Daddy. Katie Marinello: Yeah, sure. Okay, This is the first movie that we've watched in a while where I have complicated feelings on it. Claire Fisher: Okay, Katie Marinello: I neither hate it, nor love it. As it turns out I have the same opinion on this as Roger Ebert. May I read it to you? Claire Fisher: please. Katie Marinello: So he wrote Garbo Talks starts out as a great idea for a movie and when it's over, it's still a great idea for a movie. But the problem is there's no great ideas in between Claire Fisher: Ow. Katie Marinello: one out of four stars. I know. Claire Fisher: Yikes. Okay. Katie Marinello: tell me of the times. Claire Fisher: All right. So this came out October 12th, 1984. 1984. Famously an [00:03:00] unlucky year in both fiction and fact in real life. That was the year that the famine in Ethiopia came to international attention, and there was a big old Live Aid that raised tons of money, which then got stolen by the Ethiopian government and used to pay for more weapons Crack cocaine was first introduced to the US. Indira Gandhi. Then the Prime Minister of India was assassinated by her own security services kicking off a very complicated Ronald Reagan, won reelection in Katie Marinello: Oh. Claire Fisher: Okay. The good news, the Mac personal computer launched in January and would Katie Marinello: that's why 1984 will not be 1984. Claire Fisher: Exactly. That was the good news. Compare with the ancient computers that the accountants in this movie are Katie Marinello: That don't even turn on until 7:00 AM. Claire Fisher: yeah. The invention of the personal computer was important. The first American woman to perform a spacewalk went on a spacewalk the day before this movie came out. Katherine D. [00:04:00] Sullivan. Sally Ride gets all the glory, right? Um, Katie Marinello: did she take up with her? Claire Fisher: a hundred because we know NASA's not very good at adapting their plans, On October 12th, the number one movie in America was a dramedy called Teachers in which a high school is being sued for having given a diploma to an illiterate student, Katie Marinello: Oh, Claire Fisher: which is still a thing that high schools get sued for. There was news about that like last week. Katie Marinello: I had no idea that you could get sued for that. Claire Fisher: This has left no cultural imprint. It was number one for two weeks in 1984. I'd never heard of it, Two weeks after Garbo Talks came out, it would be supplanted in the box office records and in cultural memory by a much more famous 1984 release The Terminator. Katie Marinello: Ah, Claire Fisher: Garbo Talks landed at a time where people were feeling very anxious about life, the universe and everything. And just before we all went gaga for a vision of the future, which AI would be our [00:05:00] doom and into that world came Sydney Lumet's latest effort. Had you heard of you, Sidney Lumet oh, Katie Marinello: I don't. Tell me. Claire Fisher: Very famous directed 12 Angry Men directed Network. Was nominated for five Oscars relevant to our interests. He directed the movie version of Equus 1977. And this was his movie, Garbo Talks was his movie. So, Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: Should I just mention a tiny little bit about Greta Garbo Katie Marinello: Yeah, go for , Claire Fisher: Greta Garbo was a movie star. She had been in 28 movies between 1924 and 1941, initially in her native Sweden, and then later in Hollywood, earned four Oscar nods. But then one day started turning down work and just stopped acting. Contrary to how this is portrayed in the movie, she wasn't really a recluse she just wasn't public anymore. Like she didn't wanna be a public figure. She had friends, she had family, she had a social life, but she just wasn't doing [00:06:00] appearances Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: Um, Katie Marinello: the impression that she was like, I, she didn't wanna see this random guy. I didn't get the impression that she had no life. But yeah. Claire Fisher: She died in 1990. So at the time this movie was made, she was still alive, but had become a legendary enigma because people liked her movies, but nobody had spoken to her in decades. She didn't do interviews, she didn't do, I know they didn't really have like conventions in those In other words, she had firmly retired. She refused to tell anyone why until in 1986 she told her Swedish biographer, Sven Broman quote, I did not like my work. There were many days when I had to force myself to go to the studio. I really wanted to live another life. Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: And so she did. The title for this movie, Garbo Talks, had been the tagline of an earlier movie from 1930, Anna Christie, which was a filmed adaptation from a stage play by Eugene O'Neill. [00:07:00] Was advertising the fact that she was making the shift from silent films to talkies, which not every international movie star got to do because her Swedish accent was notable. Katie Marinello: I read that she even exaggerated it more for that part because it, it was relevant, to the character, so that gave her that that break in. Claire Fisher: A lot of silent movie stars just never worked again after talkies. She was one of the few who actually successfully made that leap and then just decided she didn't like the talkies and walked away, Katie Marinello: I get it. Yeah. Think about everything we know about the quote unquote golden Age of Hollywood and how women were treated. How actors are treated in the studio system and all that. I could see getting to a point, and she obviously had enough money to live out the rest of her days, so I guess she just, I get it. Whos among us doesn't wanna go in and tell her boss off and quit their job. Claire Fisher: Which is what meeting her inspires Gilbert to do Katie Marinello: Exactly. I Claire Fisher: [00:08:00] I also think. we can't fully ignore. She walked away. Her last movie was 1941. Like, think about what was happening in the world. Hollywood was very much pivoting to making propaganda pictures. Some of the people she had come up with who were European and American movie stars in the silent era, had actually gone back to their native countries to support their native country's war effort, including the first guy ever to win. Best actor was making movies for the Nazi side. So I think that possibly the politicking and actual politics involved in making movies in 1941. Could have been another factor in her deciding, you know what, I'm out. Katie Marinello: So 50 years, Claire Fisher: She lived Katie Marinello: 49? Yeah. after her making her last movie and just did not do things. Wow. She must have invested really well. Claire Fisher: In her later years, she dedicated herself to her art collection. So she was buying and selling That, which can also be a type of invest investing. With [00:09:00] careful money management, movie stars get paid a lot per movie. And if you don't blow it all in one Katie Marinello: not necessarily back then. It's not like we, they were getting millions, Claire Fisher: well, we'd have to adjust for That. But, if she invested wisely, I mean, the American stock markets did pretty well between 1941 and 1984 too. Katie Marinello: That's true. That's true. All right, so should we talk about the other people who, since she is not in this movie Claire Fisher: Yeah, she never responded. They reached out to her to ask if she would play herself even for a cameo, and she just never answered Katie Marinello: Yeah. That tracks? Claire Fisher: because she wasn't doing that anymore. So in this, Katie Marinello: she has any indication that she heard this or saw this movie, Claire Fisher: she would've known it was happening. 'cause the way they invited her to be in it was they actually sent an invitation by somebody who knew her. Like they didn't just mail it. Send it to her manager or Right. Someone at some point said to her, Sidney Lubert is making a movie called Garbo Talk. He wants you to do a [00:10:00] cameo. And she decided not to respond. Katie Marinello: Interesting. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: Okay, so she's not in this movie, but Claire Fisher: but she looms over it. She's in it in archive Katie Marinello: oh yeah. And I think, actually, I actually think this might be bad, but I think the opening credits are the most interesting part of the movie, and we could talk about that in a bit. But, okay, Claire Fisher: in this movie? Katie Marinello: so this movie is actually like star studded given that it doesn't have that many characters in it. So Anne Bancroft, who plays Estelle, who is the mother, the one who wants to meet Greta Garbo she was an American actress. She's closely associated with method acting as being one of the first to do that. She's one of only 24 thespians who have won the triple crown of acting. Do you know what that is? Claire Fisher: So that would be an Oscar, a Tony, and a BAFTA Katie Marinello: An Emmy? Claire Fisher: Emmy. Katie Marinello: Yeah. So you have to have won at a competitive Academy award, Emmy Award and Tony Award in the acting categories. In fact, she [00:11:00] won won Academy Award, three BAFTA awards, two Golden Gold Awards, two Tony Awards, two primetime Emmy Awards and a Cannes film festival award. Her Academy Award and her second Tony Win were both for the Miracle Worker. Claire Fisher: oh, Katie Marinello: Did you not know that? Okay. I didn't either, and I thought, but I thought, you're usually better at recognizing people, but Claire Fisher: I, recognized her from The Graduate. Katie Marinello: okay. I saw, I, when I saw that, I was like, duh. So that was a movie that we watched like a couple of times when we were growing up because we were very into Helen Keller and that story, and she played Annie Sullivan. She was also nominated for Oscars for the Pumpkin Eater in 1964, The Graduate in 1967, The Turning Point in 1977, and Agnes of God in 1985. So those were her nominations. She had other notable roles in Jesus of Nazareth, the Elephant Man To Be or Not To Be Torch Song Trilogy, GI Jane, Great Expectations Up At The Villa. [00:12:00] Her Emmys were for Television films. So Broadway bound deep in my heart, which she won. And the Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone. And this is like a footnote in her story, but pretty, she was married to Mel Mel Brooks. I didn't even know that. Claire Fisher: she's Max Brooks' Katie Marinello: Yeah, she is Max Brooks' mother. Yes. And they were married in 1964 until she died in 2005 from uterine cancer. Beautiful story. What a life. Never made that connection but love her. Ron Silver, who plays Gilbert, I did not know he died. Did you know he died? Claire Fisher: No, I hadn't known he died. I, I recognized him and I realized it's from the West Katie Marinello: Yes, Claire Fisher: but I didn't know he had Katie Marinello: Yeah. He died in 2009. So he was an American actor, director, producer, radio host, and activist. He got his big acting breaks starring in El Grande to Coca-Cola in 1974. A work for which there is no [00:13:00] Wikipedia page. It was at the famed whiskey a Go-Go in the Sunset strip in la. The reason that I noted this is because he was discovered during that performance and also his co-star, Jeff Goldblum was discovered during that. He's one of those actors you've seen everywhere. He had recurring roles as Gary Levi Levy in the sitcom Rhoda. He starred opposite Kirsti Alley in season two of her TV series, Veronica's Closet. He was the lead in. Enemies a love story. In 1989, which received an Oscar nomination he was awarded a Tony in 1988 for best actor for a play called Speed the Plow, a satirical dissection of the American movie business. And he was nominated for an Emmy for the West Wing where he played political strategist, Bruno Gianelli. And yeah, I definitely recognized him from that role. He was president of the Actor's Equity Association from 1991 to 2000. He was, he has said that he was a democrat prior to nine 11 [00:14:00] and became an avid supporter of George W. Bush after nine 11. I mentioned this only because he provided the narration for the 2004 political documentary film Fahrenhype nine 11 that was produced as a conservative response to the award-winning and controversial Michael Moore documentary film Fahrenheit nine 11, and a memory documentary about the Arab and Iranian reactions to September 11th Claire Fisher: oh, Lordy. Katie Marinello: His Western colleagues called him Ron. Ron the NeoCon. Claire Fisher: Horrible. That's, oh my Katie Marinello: wait, which part of which part of that is horrible? Claire Fisher: Him becoming a Republican. Katie Marinello: I agree. The Claire Fisher: George Bush was a war. Criminal is a war criminal. Katie Marinello: I was laughing at the nickname, not at the, all that's all terrible. That's why I mentioned it Claire Fisher: well, Ron. Ron the NeoCon. Katie Marinello: My affection for him diminished. Catherine Hicks is best known as Andy Camden on the long running television series. Seventh Heaven. A show for which everyone our age has a [00:15:00] complicated relationship. She was nominated for an Emmy for playing Marilyn Monroe in ABC's $3.5 million production Marilyn: the untold story based on the Norman Mailer bestseller. Other roles included Dr. Faith Ridge on the soap opera, Ryan's Hope. Dr. Gillian Taylor in Star Trek four, the Voyage Home, and Carol Heath and Peggy Sue got married and Karen Barclay in Child's Play. In 2023, she told TMZ that she is retired from acting which she revealed in response to them asking if she would consider a Seventh Heaven reboot or sequel. She said It's not happening. The kids are all grown up and Steven, who played her husband is she delicately put it gone because he was pretty thoroughly canceled. So those are the main ones I think. Claire Fisher: Besides those characters, New York is a character. Katie Marinello: Okay. I have a visceral reaction to you saying that Claire Fisher: what? [00:16:00] Why, Katie Marinello: it's very sex in the city. Claire Fisher: but it is the setting, let me rephrase. In addition to the characterization, the setting is super important to this movie, and we will discuss some of the places of note that they visit in the quest to find Greta Garbo. After I finish watching this movie, Brian said, that seems, it seems like that movie made you feel feelings. And I said, yes. It made me feel the feeling of realizing that I remember things that aren't there anymore. Katie Marinello: Mm. Claire Fisher: Because 1984 New York has a lot in common with 2025 New York, Yet not everything. For Example, as I mentioned, Jane Mortimer's characters trying out for, as You Like It with Joe Papp at the Public Theater. Our mother knew Joe Papp when she worked at the Public Theater. Joe Papp not there anymore, Right? Public theater still there, but you know, With a different feeling now, also, Gilly [00:17:00] works in the Twin Towers. Katie Marinello: Oh, I didn't notice that. Claire Fisher: They don't do a lot of establishing shots. Really? You See the inside of his office and like the decorations changing or how, you know, what season it is? Like Christmas, Valentine's Day, Easter. But at one point when they're riding in the elevator and Jane Mortimer is telling him her sexual fantasy about elevators, she says the elevator goes on a long time. 'cause of course we're at the World Trade Center, And Fire Island when he got on the ferry boat to fire Island, I was like, I know that ferry. I don't know if you feel any feelings thinking back to going to Fire Island in the summer. Katie Marinello: I don't know, maybe I am too far removed from living in New York where we both lived for a long time. But I don't know. I guess I didn't have the same. I was born in New York in the eighties. I lived in New York in the early 2010s. I don't know, but okay. I will accept your characterization of New York as a character, especially because it seems to be partially the antagonist of this [00:18:00] movie, at least as far as Carrie Fisher goes. Claire Fisher: All right. Katie Marinello: I've already given you my general reaction, so maybe you should do yours. Claire Fisher: In addition to feeling feelings about things like the Sixth Avenue flea market that closed during Covid I thought this was a movie about anticipatory grief That manages to not be a schmaltzy, yucky cancer drama movie because you can go very schmaltzy You talk about a character's mother is dying of cancer. You could go so sappy. Katie Marinello: Could be the stepmom Claire Fisher: yeah, Katie Marinello: a movie that makes me cry within 30 seconds of watching any scene. Claire Fisher: I did think this was a real tour to force for Anne Bancroft and in retrospect there's a little bit of poignancy. 'cause we know that she will go on to be the mother who dies from cancer. She had been sick a long time. I don't know if you read anything about this, but She had end, Katie Marinello: anyone. Claire Fisher: she had endometriosis when there really was no treatment for it other than hysterectomy. Katie Marinello: Which does not work. Claire Fisher: yeah. So that [00:19:00] Yeah. Goes to Show why she was so sick for so long. Since that was the only treatment and she didn't do that, then she just really suffered for a long time. Katie Marinello: But yeah her death came as a surprise to a lot of her close friends because she hadn't told that many people yeah. Claire Fisher: I remember reading like a making of The Graduate where they were saying one reason Mrs. Robinson is almost always lying down is that Ann Bancroft was very sick from endometriosis when they were making it. Right. Katie Marinello: Doesn't surprise me. But yeah, it is just a horrific disease and criminally underdiagnosed. Claire Fisher: So I think, she was tapping into some things Being, a woman who's dealing with her mortality and pain and her relationship with her son, her relationship with her ex, her relationship with fandom We didn't have the phrase bucket list in 1984, but today people ha that is a big thing. Like what would you do if you knew you were dying? Katie Marinello: I loved the line. And it's Lisa who says it right? Oh, it's like a last wish. [00:20:00] And Estelle says I have lots of wishes, but I'm running outta time. Claire Fisher: Yeah. I thought back to when there was that thing that went viral. The last lecture, Randy Po uh, The one unfulfilled childhood dream was meeting Captain Kirk. So then William Shatner actually reached out and met with him. It was like, if you have one thing you wanted to do. I actually looked up when Make-A-Wish was founded. 'cause I was like, was this not a thing in 1984 that you will move heaven and Earth to make a dying person happy? Katie Marinello: wait, I thought of this too because I was like, today I feel like if you wrote a letter to a celebrity saying this was your parents' dying wish. I mean, Granted she's not a child, but I feel like if they didn't respond, you would just go on Twitter or not Twitter anymore, but you would go on TikTok and put 'em on blast and then they would be shamed into doing it. Claire Fisher: Which is an awful way to relate to the Katie Marinello: awful. Awful. Don't do that. Claire Fisher: don't do that. That's, that's weird. That's Katie Marinello: But do you remember like the only celebrity that [00:21:00] always says No, Who always says no to Make-A-Wish. Claire Fisher: Who is it? Katie Marinello: the Barefoot Contessa. Claire Fisher: Who? Katie Marinello: The barefoot contest. Claire Fisher: The cook. Oh, Katie Marinello: The celebrity chef. Claire Fisher: Asks for a chef for their Katie Marinello: That's what I'm saying. Like how many does she get that she says no? Claire Fisher: Okay, so I looked it up. Make-A-Wish did exist in 1984. It had been founded in 1981. You're now aware, dunno what you'll do with that information now that you have it. But you have it now because I looked it Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: Okay. Um, Katie Marinello: cranky about that. You look up lots of facts for everything. Claire Fisher: I'm just saying I think that today, this isn't a movie today. This is like a viral video. But in 1984, if someone was out of the public eye, You Katie Marinello: didn't really know where to find her. Yeah. Claire Fisher: tweet at them, Katie Marinello: when they first, when it first started, 'cause I didn't know where she had [00:22:00] retired to or anything like that. I thought maybe they'll have to go back to California. Maybe Lisa will get her wish because I thought maybe she was in la. So isn't it convenient that you live in New York As so does she. So you actually can stalk this poor woman up and down the East coast. Claire Fisher: Let's go through a little of the actual specifics here. 'cause I feel like most of our listeners probably haven't seen this movie, so they probably don't know what we're Katie Marinello: I agree. Let's talk about it a little bit. Yeah. Claire Fisher: So the credit sequence you alluded Katie Marinello: Oh my God, I thought it was beautiful. So there's an animated sequence that opens the movie and it's Estelle's character kind of living her life. And behind her are the Greta Gargo movies that she's watching. During that period in her life. And so she, I think she starts as a little girl and then she suddenly has a little boy with her right as she's like older and she has a protest sign, And then [00:23:00] he's no longer with her because he's gone off to do his own life and she's still has the protest side and behind her are all these different classic gar, gar movies. I thought it was, it told a really interesting backstory pretty quickly. Claire Fisher: Yeah. It was a short film in its own right. Really. Um, and Then, okay, so act one Estelle watching a movie, crying her eyes out. Gilbert and Lisa at home. Lisa complaining that she wants to go back to California, right? Katie Marinello: to talk about this because I was so mad at her at first. Lisa (Carrie Fisher): Gilly I wanna go home to Los Angeles. I want us both to go. I, I talked to dad who'll give us some money. There's so much to do in California. Anything you could ever want in life is an hour's drive away. Katie Marinello: And I was like, wait, are they not in New York City? Because I thought they were in New York City. And how could you say that New York City is not a [00:24:00] cultural epicenter, right? I understand that she is, California and New York are very different places. And I understand that being that far away from your family is hard. I empathize with Lisa through most of this movie. That line, I was like an hour's drive if you're in New York City, Claire Fisher: You could go anywhere Katie Marinello: literally anywhere. The subway. Yeah, exactly. Claire Fisher: I did think this was interesting 'cause in real life at this point, Carrie Fisher was married to Paul Simon and living in New Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: But after she Katie Marinello: Is from, yeah, it's from after she broke up with him, he wrote a song about returning to your natural coasts. [00:25:00] Claire Fisher: uh, so there's a certain subtext here. Katie Marinello: As Carrie Fisher says, if Paul Simon ever offers story to song about you do it. Claire Fisher: Okay. So Gilly Gilbert Gilly his first full sentence is, where's my coat rack? Katie Marinello: Guess because his, he gets to his office and it's been changed. There's no coat rack. Claire Fisher: they've moved Katie Marinello: They, They've moved him to a different office. Yeah. Claire Fisher: and they. They say it's because the other guy just cares too much about status. And since Katie Marinello: don't care about things like that. Claire Fisher: You don't care about things like that. Yeah. Shades of the time. My last full-time job when I asked for a standing desk with a doctor's note moved me to the corner near the elevators so I wouldn't distract other people. And I haven't accepted a full-time job since. Katie Marinello: Yeah. This job, this, all his stuff with the office is very triggering for anyone who's had a corporate job. Claire Fisher: And then like his second full sentence is my mother's in jail. 'cause he gets a phone call, he [00:26:00] says, my mother's in jail, and his secretary says Katie Marinello: Again, Claire Fisher: And when he gets down there to bail her out, she says, I told you, I don't want you to come down here anymore. Katie Marinello: right. So who called him then? Claire Fisher: You have to give a, an emergency contact when you sign in Katie Marinello: I guess? Yeah. But you would think that she would have to call. Claire Fisher: Or maybe she thought he was just gonna send a bail bondsman, She called, but she told him to just send a bondsman Because a $500 bail in 1984. That meant more that it would today. Katie Marinello: $500 is a lot of bail. Yeah. Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: Find out what that was actually. Claire Fisher: And it turns out she shoplifted 64 cents worth of frozen zucchini in protest of a pricing change that the grocery store was being unfair with pricing change. Katie Marinello: 1984, $500 would be 1500 now, Claire Fisher: Okay. So 64 cents would be like a dollar $80 92 now. Katie Marinello: right? Okay. So her issue with this grocery store is that they were raising the prices of [00:27:00] stuff that was already on the shelf Claire Fisher: Yeah, which you aren't supposed to do. That's you're not. supposed to do that. Katie Marinello: And so she decided to shoplift something that would make up the difference between what she thought she was gonna pay and what she was going to have to pay. Claire Fisher: I love this scene. This scene establishes every Katie Marinello: everything about woman's life. It establishes her attitude towards the man, quote Claire Fisher: unquote, On the way out the door. She lectures a black cop about how he's being used and turned into a race traitor Katie Marinello: don't that. Yeah. Claire Fisher: It goes not go up to minorities and tell them that you know better. She, her relationship with the daughter-in-law saying, oh, tennis is one way to get through life. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: She still cares about her ex-husband. She hates her son's father-in-law and she's buying her son food as they're leaving from him, bailing her out of jail, uh, And saying to him, was I ever not there for Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: he, he can't come up with a single time she's let him down except that he's embarrassed. She keeps getting arrested. Katie Marinello: [00:28:00] Yeah. So he is, he's complaining that his whole life, she's been this activist, but she's, yeah. Like you said, also very much been there for him. And before she said, how's your father? I was like, oh, was it just the two of them against the world or whatever. But no, he has a pretty good relationship with his father too. They just, and his father clearly still loves his mother, but they just didn't work because she was always angry about something and his father couldn't handle that all the time. Claire Fisher: mean now, yeah, now today with the need to be activists because actually there are some, I. Really serious problems that we could have fixed in the Eighties and are getting harder to fix now. You and I have navigated that dynamic with friends and family who might want us to just shut Katie Marinello: To just calm down. Yeah. And and the fact that it was over, the price of, what was it, zucchini or something like that, is very, uh, resonant right now when we just elected a fascist for the price of eggs over the price of eggs. Claire Fisher: When actually the price [00:29:00] of eggs is being set by the grocery store chains that are taking their profit off of us? And not by the government at all. Okay. But what I think is interesting is like in a lot of her activism, she's not trying to hurt people. She's actually telling them like, okay, moments after they have that Katie Marinello: I knew you were gonna love this Claire Fisher: when she gets cat called, Katie Marinello: Yes. She, it's not even her getting cat called. It's the woman in front of her. Claire Fisher: Don't you call out cat collars when they cat call the woman in front of you. Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: I do. Katie Marinello: All right. I've never, and you've never climbed up onto Claire Fisher: So she climbs up onto construction equipment and rides the lift up to where they're working. 'cause they're on the roof of a building And she says, stop demeaning yourself in public. Uh, Katie Marinello: even says, cat call out the window, which I don't even quite understand. She's shouted at, or I guess it's not out the window. She says shout it on the highway. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): Who wanted a girl to sit on their face? Come on. What do you wanted someone to sit on your face so [00:30:00] badly? You screamed it all the way down to the pavement. Who was it? I got all day and I can come back tomorrow. Man 1: You mean the guy who whistled at that girl? Estelle (Anne Bancroft): Yeah, that's what I mean. Man 1: Yeah, that was me. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): Oh, well that girl couldn't come. She was late for an appointment, so I came instead. I hope it's okay. Which one of you has got the electric tongue? Man 2: I guess that was me. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): You plug it in or does it run on batteries? Man 2: Oh, listen, I, you know, we were just walked, just, just a joke. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): You think you got some special right to act like animals just because you work up high, huh? You think because you build buildings, you're exempt from showing a little class. You want someone to sit on your face, roll up your car windows and scream it out on the highway, and stop demeaning yourself in public. Claire Fisher: And, you know, embarrasses them and who hasn't wanted to do that? But like it's stopped demeaning yourself. It's not you assholes. It's stopped demeaning [00:31:00] yourselves. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: And so even though Gilbert is obviously very embarrassed, you can tell he is a little bit proud of Katie Marinello: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. When I first, the first description I read of this movie said she was overbearing, and I was like, I don't believe that at all. She says, I am who I am. You are who you are. You have your life. I have to do what I have to do. Claire Fisher: I am who I am and you are who you are is the thesis of this movie. Or in other words, you are who you decide to be, right? So meanwhile, Gilbert, even though he's married with some reasonable happiness, has fallen in love with the secretary at his office. Jane, Katherine Hooks, Katie Marinello: Yeah. Did not like this. Claire Fisher: It's a parallel 'cause when he asks his father why did you fall in love with Estelle? That she danced with everything is what his father says. Co. We had fun, but she wouldn't change just a little and meet me halfway. And that's a parallel with Gilbert loves Lisa, but [00:32:00] she won't shut up about California and He obviously doesn't wanna move to California, Right? So. Katie Marinello: never like a, he never seems to really respond to anything Lisa says. Claire Fisher: He really does not. So he's a little checked out of his own marriage. He's a little checked out of his own life. Right. Because there's also the Parallel with how he never objects to any dumb thing his boss does. Katie Marinello: right. Like moving him, Claire Fisher: his office Katie Marinello: office and then yeah. Claire Fisher: So the first, anything in this movie that he actually shows an interested is going to get a sandwich with Jane. Jane invites him for a sandwich and he says, I'm married. And she's okay, but do you want Katie Marinello: I invited you for a sandwich. Claire Fisher: Right? Which is fair. Not every woman at work who wants to be your friend is actually trying to screw you. Katie Marinello: And I did appreciate that he said that because, it, yeah. Claire Fisher: But he obviously a little bit is envious of, she's living like his mother lives. She, even though she has to work this job, she's doing her breathing exercises on the floor. She's practicing her elocution. She's slipping out for [00:33:00] auditions, right? Jane (Catherine Hicks): I'm really only accounting until something breaks. I need to work. Gilbert (Ron Silver): People like you shouldn't have to work Jane (Catherine Hicks): you are prehistoric. Actually, I'd like to be kept, but I'm not the type. Gilbert (Ron Silver): I'd like to keep you, but I don't have the money. Katie Marinello: I did not like that. I said, all right, you just told this woman that you're married and now you're flirting. Yes, not every male female friendship has to be sexual, but you just made it sexual. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Or at least it's a joke. Then the contrast is with his wife at home who. Won't shut up about California and spent three hours cooking a Chinese recipe that nobody even really liked. And Estelle says three hours, she could have read War and Peace. It's I think this is to parallel Jane being a little bit more like his mother, like what he admires about his mother in terms of free spiritedness and Lisa being a little bit more like what he thinks he wants, which is to [00:34:00] not be like his mother Katie Marinello: A little more like traditional marriage, stable. down Rich. So yeah. So his job, it doesn't, we don't get the impression, pays anything. But she comes from a Beverly Hills contractor, is that right? Claire Fisher: yeah, something like Katie Marinello: Beverly Hills contractor. Claire Fisher: Who's willing To give him a job. in the family business, move him out to California, blah, blah. But he doesn't want to be kept. He's not interested. So instead they're living in a teeny, tiny New York City apartment. They Katie Marinello: That was probably the most realistic New York City apartment I've seen in a movie. Claire Fisher: Yeah, I know. Katie Marinello: The kitchen is basically a closet. Claire Fisher: are you at all nostalgic for sleeping in my living room? Watching this? Katie Marinello: No. Claire Fisher: Yeah, because now maybe for my very first apartment, which was basically that size That's act one is really just setting up the characters, right? The setting the characters conflict, Then inciting event starting Act [00:35:00] two, Gilbert gets a call. This is actually, it's illegal now, but this is how it was done in the eighties. Gilbert gets a call from his mother's doctor. Bad news, inoperable brain tumor. They want Gilbert to break the news to his mother in those days. I now illegal, but that was how it Katie Marinello: me so mad, Claire Fisher: The thinking was you would accept bad news better from someone you knew than from Katie Marinello: and I appreciated that she said, what does he think I'm made of butter or whatever. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Claire Fisher: Another great line for Estelle. And also I have hope. I don't believe in miracles. And also Katie Marinello: is funny because she won an Oscar for the Miracle Worker. Claire Fisher: it is. But then she also has this clear vision of how she wants to die. She doesn't wanna be in this hospital 'cause the dieticians are non-union. She doesn't wanna do radiation treatments 'cause she just had her hair dyed and she [00:36:00] doesn't wanna lose her hair. She packs very carefully to go into the hospital, which they don't even make you go into the hospital if you have four to six months to live anymore. Now they figure you're more comfortable at home. But she's packing to go into the hospital. She brings a picture of her son, a picture of Greta Garbo at her best clothes. She Is staying true to who she is, who she's always been. We are who we are. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): Gilbert, I wanna meet Greta Garbo. Yeah. I wanna meet Garbo Gilbert (Ron Silver): mom. Are you kidding? That's, Estelle (Anne Bancroft): it's not impossible. She lives right in city. Gilbert (Ron Silver): Why you just concentrate on getting better? Estelle (Anne Bancroft): Oh, I wanna make carbo. Gilbert (Ron Silver): Why? Estelle (Anne Bancroft): Why shouldn't I? I'm dying [00:37:00] she. Lisa (Carrie Fisher): It's like a last wish. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): It's not my last wish. I have a lot more just short on time. Claire Fisher: So this kicks off the bulk of this movie is Gilbert looking for Greta Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: So what does he do? Katie tell us a few of the Katie Marinello: Okay. So he starts by going to find books on her and he finds like the name of a photographer, and so he thinks it's like an editorial photographer, right? Who like took her portrait, It turns out to be a paparazzo who shot it from a what do they call it? Telescope Claire Fisher: Telephoto lens. Katie Marinello: Yeah, telephoto lens. And [00:38:00] he won't talk to him at first. So he hasc to call the paparazzo agent and Claire Fisher: has six cats? Katie Marinello: Yeah. Has six cats and she's clearly not been working for a while, and he has to write out a check, I think it was also $500. Claire Fisher: It's the same amount. He just paid to bail his mother Katie Marinello: Yeah. So $1,500 to then go sit outside her apartment building with this man for a day or two and that's it. This is it. You just sit here and wait all day to see if she comes out. And he is if you're lucky, sometimes it takes several days. Sometimes it takes, flying around the world. He talks about like other celebrities that he has followed around the world to take their pictures. So that does not work. Claire Fisher: yeah, so the photographers, Howard de Silva in his last role before his death, And what I think is interesting is they don't find Greta Garbo. But at the end of the two day stakeout, the photographer says, I'm not gonna take your money. I'm just tired of spying. I'm gonna go do something else with the time I have It goes to show, Estelle is [00:39:00] like the pebble dropped in the pond and the ripples going out into the world. Are her son searching for Greta Garbo, the photographer, having a change of heart. Et cetera, et cetera. Lisa, getting really unhappy over that $500 spent on this quest Katie Marinello: She's balancing the books. She says, we're poor. And he's like, well, can you cover the maintenance? This, um. And so clearly she has investments, but she's not willing to touch those. So he goes and gets a job as a delivery person Claire Fisher: Um. Katie Marinello: that he knows, delivers to that building. Claire Fisher: And when Lisa sees a in his delivery outfit, she locks herself in the bathroom saying, Lisa (Carrie Fisher): Gilbert, are you crazy? I don't believe it. What's happening to me? What's happening to my life? I won't come out until you take that thing off, Gilbert (Ron Silver): honey. Try and understand Lisa (Carrie Fisher): I won't be part of this circus anymore and my, am I being unfair? If I'm being unfair, just tell me so. Gilbert (Ron Silver): You're [00:40:00] not being unfair. Lisa (Carrie Fisher): This is too much. You are making me a nervous wreck. Oh, I'm starting to ovulate. I can feel it. Claire Fisher: , which is a very weird thing to say. But I think we're supposed to see both sides here. was definitely on hers, like her husband just stops living his normal life and is running around the city. Stalking of movie star no one has heard from in 42 years. Katie Marinello: I, a thousand percent, understood where she was coming from. I think living on the other side of the country from her family is hard. I think. Not necessarily having the life that she thought she was going to have with him, because she grew up a certain way. I think the fact that she reacts because he's wearing the uniform of a working class job is, that's the part where I don't empathize with her necessarily. Claire Fisher: I thought it, it could be the working class thing. You're right. But I think it could also just be your [00:41:00] husband's acting really weird and he won't let you in on what the hell is going on. He's negotiated for an earlier start time at his actual job in order to take an afternoon job in hopes of breaking into the home of Greta Garbo and I'm glad they did carefully show that he is still spending time with his mother during this 'cause I was worried they were gonna go the route. That he's so dedicated to fulfilling his mother's last wish that he forgets about his mother and that that's not this. Like they actually Have time together and his mother's saying she's gonna miss him . Estelle (Anne Bancroft): I'm gonna miss you. I'm gonna miss you so much. Gilbert (Ron Silver): Well, don't be afraid. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): You know, I'm not afraid. I'm mad. I'm not gonna get to know who the next president of the United States is. Me Of all people. Hmm. I got a right to know. Claire Fisher: And his mother is telling the orderly to ask for a raise Katie Marinello: I loved. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Like [00:42:00] organizing. Katie Marinello: Yep. Organizing a union. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Is dancing around her hospital room with her Walkman. So like she is embracing the time she has left and her son is a little bit deflecting his grief by looking for Greta Garbo. Katie Marinello: A hundred percent. Yeah, Claire Fisher: So then he finds out that Greta Garbo sometimes summers on Fire Island. Katie Marinello: sure. Let's go to Fire Island. Claire Fisher: For context, Katie and I used to go to Fire Island when we were kids with our father's coworker who owned a timeshare out there with none other than Sonya Sotomayor Now a Supreme Court justice. Katie Marinello: At the time of federal judge. Claire Fisher: But I didn't know until I was in high school what they, what Harvey Firestein in his first film role says on this boat. Bernie (Harvey Fierstein): I'm Bernie Whitlock, Gilbert (Ron Silver): Gilbert Rolfe. I'm, uh, I'm not gay. Bernie (Harvey Fierstein): I am [00:43:00] Gilbert (Ron Silver): guess the whole boat is with rare exceptions. Claire Fisher: I didn't know going there as a kid in the nineties that Fire Island had been a gay spot. It, and now that I understand that it was, and then the AIDS pandemic wiped out a lot of that scene. , and it became more of a place for families. I now know, I knew it in the aftermath of a pretty big disaster. Katie Marinello: Yeah, I mean I also had heard that the side of the island that we were on is not the side of the island that has the nightlife. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: I know Andy Cohen still goes out there it or did before he had children and like it's, there was that actually really sweet romantic comedy that took place out there recently. It was based on Pride and Prejudice. It's just called Fire Island Claire Fisher: Okay. All right. So Gilbert makes a friend on the boat to fire island. Katie Marinello: that was Firestein. Claire Fisher: Harvey Katie Marinello: Yeah. I recognize the voice like immediately. Claire Fisher: Harvey Stein's first line is the dog is on, is peeing on your leg, and then he [00:44:00] gives him a pair of Dogs on the Ferry to Katie Marinello: Fire Island. That I remember. I remember that. I remember that strongly. Yes. Claire Fisher: I remember gum falling outta my mouth while I was looking over the railing and feeling horrible 'cause I was a litter bug. I dropped a piece of gum in the Long Island Sound. Katie Marinello: on brand. And I remember that there was a dog that wasn't being treated well, and now I work in animal care. So there you go. Claire Fisher: So anyway he, the guy sitting next to him on the boat has to give him a pair of clean pants and then it turns out that guy actually knows which house Greta Garbo stays Katie Marinello: Because he saw her once. Yeah. Claire Fisher: But then he asks the obvious question, why are you looking for Garbo? Katie Marinello: And then so he hears the story, he's touched by it. And again, it seems like he's. On a quest for something, right? He asked Gilly to have dinner with him and he says, no, but what's the beautiful touching thing that he says as they part [00:45:00] ways? Claire Fisher: If your mother ever wants to meet me, I'm at the Queen's Boulevard branch in Queen. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: And keep the pants they're present. So Gilbert in bright purple pants that he took from a gay man on the ferry knocks on Greta Garbos door. She leaves in a motorboat to a sea plane out the back door and he runs into the bay after her. It's funny, it's heartbreaking. And then you cut to Estelle in her hospital bed realizing she's lost the ability to read And you know, she doesn't have much time left, Cut back to Gilbert and he finds out he missed the last ferry. Katie Marinello: He has sleep on the beach. Claire Fisher: I used to sleep on the beach and this is where Lisa really loses Katie Marinello: Well, And again, it's like we see both sides, right? Because he spent the night somewhere else and it's not like he could text her and tell her where he was. I don't think he even called, He clearly had nowhere to stay. He slept on the beach and so Yeah. He never got access to a phone and And his Claire Fisher: boss was calling his wife and his wife didn't know find out where [00:46:00] he was. Yeah. 'cause he didn't show up the next morning. Yeah. Which is very embarrassing for her wife not to know if the boss was calling. So she she tells him her dad has offered to come get her and take her home. but she's decided she won't go until after Estelle dies And just Katie Marinello: just go. Claire Fisher: And so her like pulling off her house coat and ranting about Estelle, everything Estelle's ever done wrong Katie Marinello: Oh, 'cause yeah, he like shouts. Yeah. He like tells her, oh, she never liked you. Or whatever. Claire Fisher: They, we should cut this whole argument in 'cause it's actually hilarious because it's such a stupid thing to be fighting about. Gilbert (Ron Silver): If you want to leave, why don't you just leave? You don't have to wait around for Mom to die. I'll tell you something. When mom first met you, she said you were affected, you were pretentious. She didn't like you. She. Lisa (Carrie Fisher): What? What did she say? Gilbert (Ron Silver): I told her, you spoke two languages. She said, yes, English and Gucci. Lisa (Carrie Fisher): The feeling's mutual. My parents have never been so embarrassed in their whole lives. Your mother wouldn't cross a picket line [00:47:00] for her own son's wedding. Go through this again, the bartenders union was striking the Beverly. We offered to get her into the laundry room, but she wouldn't. Budge. She does not cross picket lines, her own son's wedding. That is the way she is. Katie Marinello: Yep. Claire Fisher: And it just goes to show like Katie Marinello: They just have different outlooks. Claire Fisher: they absolutely do. And Lisa says, we had a perfect marriage, but I don't want surprises. And I'm like, that means your marriage isn't Katie Marinello: It's not perfect. Claire Fisher: If your husband can't have things about him right then, that's not perfect. The last we see of her, he's putting her on the plane to California and he got her an upgrade to first class. He says, I didn't want your father but think I was a schmuck. Katie Marinello: She said he will anyway. Claire Fisher: He will anyway. Katie Marinello: Yeah. It's actually quite heartbreaking. She's even then trying to stay married, she's I'll come back if you want me to. And he says, maybe it's better this way. So, I guess he's making the changes that he feels he needs to make in his life. But yeah, then we just [00:48:00] never see Lisa again. Claire Fisher: Mm-hmm. This is immediately followed by Estelle with the orderly, again, the orderly saying she doesn't wanna be the one to upset contract negotiations and Estelle saying, no, make waves start something. So this I read it as he's finally absorbing what his mother was trying to teach Katie Marinello: Yeah. To make the changes. Yeah. Do Do the things that you need to do to be yourself. Yeah. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: To get or to fight for what's right. Claire Fisher: Okay. Act three. Estelle's really got not much time left, And Gil is getting desperate, so he's gonna try to track down Elizabeth Rennick, who's an old co-star of Garbos. So he goes to Jane and says, how do you find an actress? Maybe we should cut this in too, because this is a seduction scene even though Katie Marinello: weirdest seduction scene. Gilbert (Ron Silver): How do you find an actress? Jane (Catherine Hicks): I'm an actress. Gilbert (Ron Silver): I mean a particular actress. Jane (Catherine Hicks): You call actress [00:49:00] equity? Gilbert (Ron Silver): Yeah. Jane (Catherine Hicks): Yeah. All actors are listed with him, but today is Saturday. Gilbert (Ron Silver): It's they're closed. Jane (Catherine Hicks): They are, you can call them on Monday. You just ask for membership. Gilbert (Ron Silver): Membership. Jane (Catherine Hicks): Then you tell them who you're looking for, Gilbert (Ron Silver): who I'm looking for. Jane (Catherine Hicks): You look it up. Gilbert (Ron Silver): You look it up. Are you free? I pictured you with someone. Rich Jane (Catherine Hicks): Rich men are so [00:50:00] peculiar. They always order California wine and then defend it, aren't you? Gilbert (Ron Silver): We're separating her. She's in, she's been there a few weeks now. She's probably very tan right now, Jane (Catherine Hicks): Gilbert. I don't, I don't want you to take this too seriously, being with someone permanently just isn't in my plans Katie Marinello: I did not, I didn't like it. I like it at all. I didn't buy their chemistry at all. I buy that he likes her because she's fun and doing her stretches and sexy and whatever, but I didn't really buy that. They had chemistry. Claire Fisher: What I think is interesting is it's a seduction scene where they're both being honest. She says, you're married. He says, no, I just got separated. She says, I'm not interested in anything long term. And he Says, fine. So it's [00:51:00] not just the, I had to break up with my wife so I could go move on to my one. True love This is, the marriage didn't work out. And he's now interested in potentially dating someone. I got the impression he pursued Lisa 'cause she represented stability and Katie Marinello: A hundred percent. Claire Fisher: stability. Katie Marinello: Right. ' cause he grew up going to protests and being a radical. Yeah. Claire Fisher: He wanted boring. He wanted The woman who plays tennis and buys Gucci. Uh, And now he's realized he was not that man. He was not going to be able to make that Lisa happy because he didn't match that lifestyle. And so now he is looking for some, for a change of pace. And that includes sleeping with Jane Morgan. Morgan. Katie Marinello: Sure. Claire Fisher: The romance is such a Katie Marinello: Such a minor Claire Fisher: though, that I, Katie Marinello: The thing that I think is important is that she joins him on this quest, whereas Lisa was not anti the quest, but like certainly not joining in, wasn't gonna be sitting outside her apartment with him. And Jane helps him find, Elizabeth Reddick [00:52:00] so he like tries to call the Actors Association Claire Fisher: act actor's. Equity Guild. And they say, well, who are you? he, which he was the president of it later in life. Yeah, and he's like trying to pretend that he is a producer and they won't believe him. So then she calls and, no, she goes Katie Marinello: goes in person. Yeah. Claire Fisher: and she like slightly knows the guy. Or maybe she's making Katie Marinello: she's completely making that up. Yeah. Claire Fisher: she goes in character as a producer's assistant whose phone isn't working correctly. And so She's come in person to try to get this person's phone number And she gets it and they find out she is rehearsing. Where else? At the Delacorte Theater in Central Park, our favorite theater ever to sleep outside of. Katie Marinello: Your favorite theater ever to sleep outside of? Claire Fisher: no, no. I didn't sleep outside the Delacorte theater. I slept outside the Public Theater downtown. You napped in Central Park in front of the Delacorte theater. When we were in the standby line for Much Ado About Nothing. You had a nap on one of [00:53:00] the Katie Marinello: Oh yeah, Claire Fisher: Okay, so you're the one who slept outside the D Court theater? Katie Marinello: yeah, sure. Whatever. Claire Fisher: The Delacorte Theater for people who don't live in New York is where they do the famous Shakespeare in the park summer productions. Katie Marinello: don't live in New York, which is both of us now. Claire Fisher: But we've been to Shakespeare in the park Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: and Elizabeth Rennick is having some memory problems, but she sends him to Greta Garbos favorite flea market. Katie Marinello: This was a tough scene to watch though. 'cause the director's screaming at her 'cause she like is too addled to remember her lines. It's sad, but yes. But she does remember go to this fleeing market where she hangs out and because it's a movie, miraculously she's there. Claire Fisher: So the way they handle it is the audience only sees a woman from the back as he runs up to her and makes an impassioned speech, Can I have a minute of your time please? I'm not a reporter or anything. It's [00:54:00] about my mother. You gotta listen to me, please. My mother is very sick. She is at New York Hospital, room 8 0 8. She has a tumor. She doesn't have much time. She has no time. The doctor does not think she will last a week. She has this crazy wish. She wants to meet you. I have been looking for you. For three months. She just wants to see you before she dies. That's all. She just wants to look at you. I don't know. Just, uh, see you. Please, please come with me. It's a few minutes. It's off. Five minutes, one minute please. There's not even time to think about it. She loves you, so she loves you. Claire Fisher: and so Garbo comes, Again, the audience [00:55:00] only sees it from the back as Estelle makes like a five minute speech that summarizes her whole life and her whole relationship to Garbo, what movie she watched when she was an awkward teenager, what movie she watched on her honeymoon, what movie she watched the day she got divorced, Katie Marinello: so basically recapping the opening credits. Claire Fisher: Yeah. And world's full of injustices. They either bother you or they Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Estelle (Anne Bancroft): You care anything about basketball? The Knicks are out of the playoffs. I'm not entirely happy about that. World is full of little injustices. They either bother you or they don't me. They bother. You know, a couple of years ago I saw a picture of you in a magazine. You were in Paris, you were walking out park and a black hat. I bet you got a million hats. I went to Paris twice. You got nothing on me there. [00:56:00] Of course. You were with Aristotle Na and I was with the Brene Brith tour. Claire Fisher: yeah. And when Gilbert comes back in, Estella's so happy, she's oh, her living room is red, just like mine. And she said that we were very much a alike except for the shoe size. And you Katie Marinello: I was a little bit like, wait, did any of this conversation actually happen? Claire Fisher: They couldn't have Garbo talk because they didn't have Greta Garbo. Katie Marinello: They could have, they choose not to because people appearing as other people. Historical figures is a thing. See Katherine Hicks in Marilyn Monroe, Claire Fisher: Yeah. But I get the feeling if they had gotten Greta Garbo to make a cameo in Katie Marinello: then that would've been a whole different thing. Yeah. Claire Fisher: would've been on screen, But it wasn't. So right after this happy speech. Immediate cut to Gilbert packing up the hospital room. Estelle Has died. He even packs up the picture of Garbo, but he leaves his own baby picture sitting on the [00:57:00] windowsill. I guess, 'cause he doesn't wanna leave his mother's room completely. And then he goes and quits his job. Katie Marinello: In an epic way. Claire Fisher: has just, Katie Marinello: we talked about this at the beginning, but like when he goes and asks for his, for an earlier start time, his boss makes him come in at 6:00 AM and. He's the computers don't even come on until seven. And he is yeah, come in. Anyway. So just another one of those little injustices that happen to all of us when we work for anyone. Claire Fisher: At least New York state now has family leave but they didn't in 1984. So yeah, in 19 four, they didn't even have FMLA. So you couldn't take paid or unpaid leave because your mother was dying. You had to burn through your own sick days if your mom was dying. his boss has not been that sympathetic anywhere through the whole movie. Uh, You'd think of someone's like, he's getting yelled at for being 20 minutes late, coming back from his lunch break. It's like, you know, he was at the hospital Like, Katie Marinello: You were 30 minutes late this morning and I let it go, but now you're 20 minutes late [00:58:00] coming back from lunch. Claire Fisher: okay, so I'll work an extra hour tonight, or I'll an extra half hour a night, an extra half hour tomorrow. I have never put up with that kind of thing at work. Like I've always said Katie Marinello: we have a different, I do think for all the issues that there are with work culture and work from home and all this ar argument that's going on, I do think there's more of a, if your work gets done right, we're not gonna check the clock. Especially in jobs where you don't have to clock in and out. Claire Fisher: Which he's obviously on Katie Marinello: right, he's obviously salaried, but like even my job where I do clock in and out as long as I, the work gets done, they're not like checking to make sure that I clocked in at x, y, z time. But yeah, so it's of a time, right? This is like Wolf of Wall Street times, but also it's this particular boss being a hard ass, Claire Fisher: Yeah. 'cause the boss was trying to say oh yeah, we have a flexible start time policy as long as you put in eight hours. So just get here at 6:00 AM no one else is there and the computers aren't on and [00:59:00] there's nothing for him to do. And he's framing that as his flexible start time. That's not A flexible start time. Katie Marinello: No. Claire Fisher: Yeah, maybe we'll cut in the speech where he lit, he has a whole litany of what he, his boss has done and he keeps saying, it's not your fault 'cause I didn't stop you. Gilbert (Ron Silver): I am not saying this because I am upset. Well, yes, I am upset. Of course, I'm upset. I'm very upset. You took my office away and you gave me a depressing little room. It's, it's not your fault. I allowed it to happen. The light fixture buzzes. There's a, a dull hum all day long. Well, you know, you wouldn't fix it for me no matter how many times I ask. It's okay. You reduced the staff and you gave me enough work for three people to do. And if I didn't finish, I got that speech about consolidating my time. Don't worry about it. It is not your problem. I [01:00:00] sat there and I listened, didn't I? You deducted a half day salary because I was late. No problem. I allowed it to happen. He made me come to work at six in the morning. It was nothing to do at six in the morning. And I said to myself, I said, Plotkin is enjoying doing this to me. But then I said, no rules are rules. The man is only doing his job. That's okay. A man has to do his job. You've been great. You really have. I, I wish you the best of luck. I, I'm not angry. I, I have no resentment. You've, uh, you've been great, but we are who we are. I am who I am. You are who you are, so go fuck yourself, shepherd. Claire Fisher: Any storms Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: And then as you said, it ends with he and Jane are walking through the park. She just got a part [01:01:00] it as you like it. And she's reiterates, she's too committed to her career to make a commitment to him. He reiterates, I'm okay with that and I think I can get a better job too. Then they run in to go to Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. He says, how do you do Claire Fisher: End of movie. I think often about Laura Ingalls Wilder, when she got the news that her mother had died, she wrote, in her newspaper column. Many of us have already had this news and the rest of us someday will. Losing a parent is more or less inevitable. And so this is a theme. I liked that this wasn't my mother's dying, so we need to fix everything that was wrong between us. This isn't, she's dying and that's going to mean we all have to hash out every problem we've ever had, and it's not, she's dying and that means we're going to, canonize her as a saint. It's she's dying. And so we're realizing that we only get so much time. All due respect to the late Roger Ebert, I have to disagree. I, I would put this somewhere [01:02:00] in two or three stars. I know it wasn't like the most amazing movie ever made, but it definitely was poignant, Katie Marinello: I would agree. I wouldn't have given it one star, I don't think, especially in comparison to the last couple movies we've watched. I was like, oh my gosh. A movie that I like actually like, I enjoyed watching it. It wasn't like a slog to get through. But it felt like there could have been more to it, and it just felt like a little thin to me. But that could have been, that's, some movies are just to star then, it was a little long, I think, for it to be not as deep as it could have gone. What did you think about his dad? Because we haven't really mentioned his dad. Claire Fisher: Yeah. His dad only has two scenes, as you said before. Katie Marinello: And one of them is him going to visit Estelle in the hospital. So the one we didn't talk about is him going to visit Estelle in the hospital, and she's asleep and he tells him that she's, he's her husband. , he just [01:03:00] says you damn fool. Or something like that. I don't, I didn't quite understand that, that. Claire Fisher: He wants to see her, but he thinks she won't want to see him. That's why he talked his way even. And even though she was sleeping, He brought flowers. He still loves her. You damn fool. I think was, we could have had more time together if she'd been willing to meet him Katie Marinello: yeah, but he's been married to someone else for 10 years. I don't like it. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: I appreciate that he still loves her as like the mother of his child and that they act, had to share a life together because they've always had this connection. And going to visit him, I, hers, I think is fine, but the damn fool thing. I was like, Claire Fisher: well sometimes you dunno what to say. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: I think. I think that there's a archetype for female character who's an activist, who is Mrs. Banks from Mary Poppins, where she's neglecting her children and being rude to the servants so that she can go out and be a suffragette. Which is a deeply problematic thing for a Disney movie. But anyway,. Katie Marinello: [01:04:00] Now you gotta cut in the line that I love from her song. Katie Marinello: Yes. That one. Claire Fisher: okay. By showing that this character, Estelle is loved, that she was there for her son, That she was committed to her husband, that what came between them was that he just didn't have the energy that she has To get out there and do this every minute of her life. They're Establishing that she's not using protest as a way to avoid her own responsibilities. Katie Marinello: For sure. I think yeah, how many times during this recap have we said we thought it was gonna go this way And it went a different way. So yeah, I do, I agree. I think it's a different kind of activist character than we usually see. I just, there was just a little [01:05:00] something missing from it where I got to the end and I was like, huh, I should do a 54 second recap. But well, like you said, it's a slice of life movie Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: Sometimes it's hard to get a plot summary out of that. Because it's like things happen that don't necessarily connect to the next thing. But yeah, like you said, it's character. It's character driven. Claire Fisher: Character driven, setting driven. Sorry, I just, I giggle because I'm thinking of a lot of plays that you and I have sat through when nothing happens, Katie Marinello: happens. You get to the end and nothing happens. it's just people sitting on the stage talking. Yes, at least there was like a beginning, middle, and end to this movie, Claire Fisher: Sydney Lume. His first movie was 12 Angry Men, which is literally, we will sit in a room and have emotional revelations about the nature of justice. Right. Here it's not quite sitting in a room, but it is mostly people talking to each other and having a revelation about what you want out of your life, Which can be interesting. I don't know. This isn't like my new favorite movie or anything, but I [01:06:00] thought it was okay. Katie Marinello: That I, like I said I would not have given it one star. I thought the quote that he gave resonated with me. I. I don't think it would've been one star if I were doing the column, but, he did this for a living Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: Okay. Anything Claire Fisher: So, Lisa, because she's intentionally set up to be the opposite of a huts layer. Estelle is the huts layer. Lisa is the stable girl. Katie Marinello: Right. point. But, But on the al, on the alternate side, she is someone who knows what she wants. Claire Fisher: and what she wants is for everything to be perfectly stable. I had trouble assigning a number to her because that it's a well played character in that she's true to herself. She's not a hut slayer because she doesn't want to slay any huts. Right. think we set this up, it wasn't like. They didn't have to be like kickass. They had to have [01:07:00] agency. right. And have some level of like storyline of their own. So is leaving your husband and going home to your father, is that agency. Katie Marinello: Yes. She starts out the movie wanting to go to back to California. She goes back to California. Claire Fisher: Oh, okay. Katie Marinello: I mean wants this man to love her. I think he does, but he's not going to love her the way she wants to be loved. And even though the whole way she's trying to talk herself out of it. She does make the choice to leave him. She's not set up as a particularly well-rounded character. I think Carrie Fisher plays it very well for being set up as a flat character. Claire Fisher: It's a little bit one note. Katie Marinello: Yeah, it's very one note. But I would at least give it two. We gave one in Under the Rainbow Claire Fisher: Okay. Katie Marinello: where she literally has no Yeah, Claire Fisher: All right. Two out of five huts sl. In real life at this point, Carrie Fisher had married Paul Simon and was in the process of divorcing Paul Simon. Though they would continue to date, uh, For several years. [01:08:00] Yeah, I think perhaps one thing that might've drawn her to this character is that is a real life, real thing that people go through. The decision of whether or not to leave a marriage when there's nothing horribly Katie Marinello: Right. He is not abusive. She's not Claire Fisher: He's not cheating. She's not in love with someone else. She's not, he's not standing in the way of her career or goals, it's just they aren't right for each other. Katie Marinello: don't have the same outlook. Claire Fisher: there's a mismatch. And so the decision to leave a marriage under those circumstances is a painful one, I'm sure. So perhaps that's one reason why she was drawn to this script. Katie Marinello: I also felt it mirrored the story that we told in the first episode of this podcast about wanting to see her Before she died and not really having any idea that she was dying because that she was still young and touring. But yeah, I was thinking who would be the person that I would wanna meet if I [01:09:00] had four months left to live? And I'm not really a fan that kind of way, Claire Fisher: I am. Katie Marinello: she Yes you are. She was. Definitely. She was one of those people that we wanted to meet, right? And that we almost did. And then that's always gonna be like a missed opportunity in our lives. Claire, if you had four to six months to live, who would you want me to stalk to find? Claire Fisher: Either Chris Pine or Shazad Latif Katie Marinello: say the second one again? Claire Fisher: Shazad Ladi. Katie Marinello: Who's that? Claire Fisher: He was in Star Trek Discovery. Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: he's tall, he has brown eyes. He was secretly a Klingon, did you even watch Discovery? Katie Marinello: No. Claire Fisher: Oh, he's the one I wanna wrap in blanks. Katie Marinello: Oh, the one you wanna wrap in Blankies? Yes. And give him a hug? Yep. Okay. All Claire Fisher: the character definitely needs hug. I would say, in terms of who I'm like the biggest long-term fan of though, it's Chris Pine and he's the one I almost died going to see [01:10:00] Dungeons and Dragons because I caught Covid. ' cause I went out to see Dungeons and Dragons and I didn't even play Dungeons and Dragons Katie Marinello: And I did play Dungeons and Dragons and I never saw it. Thought about it. Claire Fisher: how could you possibly get out to see it when your sister was dying in a hotel room in Portland? Katie Marinello: Exactly. I didn't go see it because pandemic not true. Didn't go see it. 'cause I don't see movies. Claire Fisher: So Katie, if you were dying who would you want me to tweet at politely because I'm not a creep? Katie Marinello: Don't tweet at anyone because the only people left on Twitter are Nazis. Claire Fisher: I would get to them through Instagram or TikTok or wherever they find celebrities nowadays. I understand Jason Momoa is on Instagram. I don't understand social media, but Katie, if you were dying, who would you want me to track down for you? Katie Marinello: I'm trying to think. Okay, this is a curve ball, but I was in the same room as Stockard Channing, and I didn't say hi. Claire Fisher: Ah, when were you in the same room as Stocker Channing?[01:11:00] Katie Marinello: So she did a reading. A charity reading that Mikey was involved in. Mikey is mom's friend, she's still in the theater. And the play, it was just a two person play and she played a professor who was also an author or whatever, and the girl who comes to meet her is completely enamored of her, talks about how she shaped her life. And I, the whole time I was thinking, she as Abby Bartlet did that for me, right? There was like a VIP section and we didn't have VIP tickets, but I'm sure Michael could have gotten me at least like a handshake. And I was just like no, no, it's fine. And I don't know, I guess like the Carrie Fisher thing is just one of those missed opportunities. I'm not a Stocker Channing fan girl. I'm not gonna go watch every movie she's been in, but I don't know. I just liked, I like her as a person I think. Now I'm gonna find out. She secretly punches dogs. Claire Fisher: They say never meet your Katie Marinello: Never meet your heroes. And I've met [01:12:00] most of my favorite people because I have been to Bravocon. Claire Fisher: I've met one of your favorite people because one time Leonard Nimoy came to a Star Trek convention near where we lived and you were away at college. So you paid for my ticket. Katie Marinello: Did I? Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: Wow. How generous of me. Claire Fisher: He went to Boston College and I had just been accepted to Boston College, so I had a BC T-shirt from the gift shop and mom put the Star Fleet logo on it and spirit gummed Vulcan ears to my ears. And then he didn't even look up. He was signing so many autographs in a row. He didn't even look up. He just said, here you go. Katie Marinello: It's the thing I think about, like people that I would like to meet. I've met a OC I've met Hillary Clinton. Yeah. A OC was on a panel for one of my clients. I didn't meet her, meet her, but we're in a picture together. I met Hillary Clinton at a book signing. I met JK Rowling and then that happened. I met Le Lemony Snick. Claire Fisher: You go to a lot more of these things than Katie Marinello: and I have met many a Bravo liberty, and that's [01:13:00] really my main fandom is Bravo. So, Claire Fisher: I should clearly be going to more things. Katie Marinello: We lived in New York. It was the cultural center of the world. F you, Lisa. Claire Fisher: I met Randall Monroe who draws XKCD Katie Marinello: Yeah, that's a good one. And we also, Claire Fisher: where we didn't go to meet Carrie Fisher. Katie Marinello: And we also both really like to get autographed books, so we've met a lot of Claire Fisher: yeah. Sister Helen Peja has signed a book for Katie Marinello: mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: um, I don't really go out and meet a lot of actors, but I have met some very good authors whose work I admire very Katie Marinello: Yeah. Most of who I just mentioned were authors. Claire Fisher: Remember the time we met the tro astronomer who killed Pluto. Katie Marinello: That was a good one. Yeah, he was very funny. I. Yeah, so I guess the thesis of this entire podcast is go to the event people Claire Fisher: Yeah, go Katie Marinello: reading, go to the book signing. They're usually free or you just have to buy the book. And you were gonna buy the book anyway. Claire Fisher: Go to the event, people go meet the celebrities. Mom and Dad have met a lot of celebrities. You've met a lot of [01:14:00] celebrities. I clearly need to be getting out more. Mom has had her laugh, commented upon by Christopher Plummer. So yeah, you can't get your laugh commented on by Christopher Plummer if you aren't out there. Stalking Greta Garbo. The end. Katie Marinello: We are who we are, and in the immortal words of Carrie Fisher, Claire Fisher: If my life weren't funny, it would just be true Katie Marinello: and that's unacceptable. Thanks for listening to another episode of Carried Far, Far Away. This podcast is hosted, produced, edited, and re-edited obsessed over and loved by Katie Marinello and Claire Fisher. You can follow the show on Facebook and Instagram at carriedawaypod. You can email us awaycarriedpod@gmail.com. You can follow Claire @deadfictionalgirlfriends and Katie @katiedaway. All clips used in this podcast are done so under the protection of fair use. Have a wonderful week and may the force be with you. Claire Fisher: And now, our Space Grandma Wisdom of the Week. Katie Marinello: I'll never be known for my work with boundaries. [01:15:00]