Zoe: Welcome to the Autism and Theology podcast, a space where we engage with the latest research in the field of autism and theology and hear life stories related to autism and faith. Today I'm joined by Pastor David, Audrey and David Han, who are all involved in the Chapel of Christ Our Hope in Singapore, a church that is run with the needs of autistic people at the heart of their practice. I'd like to start by introducing everyone. So starting with, Pastor David and then going to Audrey and then David Han, would you like to share a little bit about yourselves for our listeners?

Pastor David: Uh, yes, uh, thank you for, for having me. Um, uh, well, a bit about myself, I, I enjoy sports, I, food and coffee. Uh, I also enjoy being out in the nature and outdoors. Um, um, well, in Singapore, I serve as an Anglican priest with the Diocese of Singapore. And I also serve as an ordinary priest to the Chapel of Christ Our Hope, which is a church that seeks to embrace persons with autism and their families.

Um, but I'm also a full time chaplain at the St. Andrew's Autism Center. Uh, the center offers, uh, lifespan support to persons with autism through, uh, special education school, through a day activity centers for adults, and a residential home for adults.

Audrey: I'm Audrey. Uh, I'm a first year PhD student here at Aberdeen, studying, uh, with Léon Van Omen. And, uh, me. I think I always knew I saw the world a little differently from most of the people around me. Um, and I used to attribute it to various other factors, depending on the situation. I was in, I only received my autism diagnosis from a clinical psychologist pretty well into my adulthood.

And you know, this is already having gone through one career in law, running a social enterprise, getting a theology degree. And I found it pretty significant that it was in the process of earning the theology degree in seminary that led to my diagnosis. Because I, I think church and religious settings hold particularly high expectations of, uh, homogeneity and it also possesses many perplexing contradictions the autistic brain cannot help noticing.

So, I think I was struggling with that and various factors came together and good friends sent me prompts, even the contact. For the center I eventually went to, um, and receiving the diagnosis was at first really shocking. And then it was also a life changing pivot for me in terms of accepting myself fully, just as I was made.

And eventually that led me here to Aberdeen to do my research on neurodiversity.

David Han: Okay, I'm David Han, and I am a political scientist I'm at the Nanyang Technological University of Singapore, and I do research on foreign policy and a lecture on political science, right, in this university. And I guess the question on people's mind is, how did I know that I'm autistic?

I think to follow on from what Audrey has said just now, I found out that I was autistic by late into my adulthood, about four years ago in 2020. And that was the year when the pandemic started, and I was, uh, in the second year of my doctorate. of my doctoral studies in London, and because of some difficulties in relationships, I sought to engage, you know, in counselling, I sought to engage, right, in seeking help, to find advice as to how I should, how I could be in a relationship with a sister, for instance.

So I was introduced to a particular sister and I was told that her brother was autistic. So I decided to read up about autism and something clicked within my mind and I realized that, hmm, is it possible that I could have all these? symptoms. Is it possible that I could be autistic? And it began to reflect upon my life.

And I realized that many of the difficulties that I faced in the past, especially social challenges, could be attributed to autism. So I asked my close friends in church and my family members. And when I asked my close friends in church, they said that when they knew me, they knew that I had autism. But they did not share to me, right, their concerns.

because they weren't a trained medical or psych, trained psychologist. So, I decided to get a proper diagnosis in 2020. And that's how I got to realize that indeed, right, I was autistic. And to cut the story short, how did I come to know about CCH or Chapel Christ of Hope? I was introduced to this church, right, through Mr.

Liao Wen Ping, who is also a key figure within the Centre of Disability Inclusion that's in Singapore. And I got to know him because I wanted to find out more about disability ministries. And so that's how I got to know about Pastor David Theo and other people within Chapel Christ of Hope. And just to find, and just to add on, I think one of my special interests, right, is theology.

As you know, autistic people have their special interests, so that's my area of special interest, which is the secondry expertise that I have in addition to my expertise in political science. So I hope that gives a good introduction of who I am. 

Zoe: I'm sure a lot of our listeners will relate to that special interest in theology. Thank you all so much for sharing about yourselves. It's great to hear more about you all. Um, Pastor David, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the Chapel of Christ Our Hope and what it is and how it started. 

Pastor David: Well, um, how CCH, well, Chapel of Christ, I hope maybe I'll use the short form CCH.

Um, how CCH started, um, it was really in the context of building an autism centre for children and adults with high support needs, uh, who have learning disabilities and are also non speaking. Um, and, and of course a residential home for adults was also built later. And, and all these were a response to God's call.

from the Diocese of Singapore. And so the chapel building was built at the heart of the center to inspire hope in Christ for the staff, for the families, the children, the parents and others in the center. Um, and so the pastor of the church chapel is also the chaplain of the center. Uh, the role of the chaplain was really to extend pastoral care to the staff, the students, the clients, residents, parents on a daily basis So, CCH was really to support the centre through chaplaincy ministry, but it was also meant to support a spiritual family of all abilities, and that's how it was all started.

Zoe: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, it's so interesting, and I know, um, from Leon, our co director's research, there's a lot of different things that the church does. does to just welcome people. He often gives the description of the stained glass windows that you've got in the church. 

And David, I know you shared a little bit about how you became involved, but I wonder if Audrey and David, could you, yeah, just share about how you became involved with the church and your experience of attending. 

Audrey: Okay, so it was actually Leon who introduced me to CCH. So, um, interesting connection. I had met Leon after he gave a talk in Singapore.

Um, and although I'd heard of this autism focused church, I had not visited until then. So I decided to check it out. Um, and I met Pastor David there. I met David Han there. I just kept going, um, very quickly. becoming a part of the community. And before I came here to Aberdeen, I was attending every week.

It was, you know, playing regularly in the worship band for about a year. And I think for me, I was just amazed at how autistic folks could be present in a liturgical Anglican service and how members who were hypersensitive to sounds, they could just, you know, wear headphones, people were not disturbed by so called unusual movements.

There was just a lot of freedom there and It reminded me of the challenges I had attending churches elsewhere that had given me sensory overloads and then I'd be plugging my ears or squinting my eyes and, um, I didn't have that there and it was, it was very peaceful comparatively. So I told one of my friends, old friends back home how I'd received my autism diagnosis and she read up about it and then she messaged me saying, I finally understand now why you're always walking out of church service halfway, um, for many, many years.

Um, I don't really do that nowadays because I've adopted other coping mechanisms to deal with the sensory triggers, but I have to say, um, it, it's a lot lower in CCH. And so. I can play in the music band, uh, and we play contemporary songs, you know, but it's drums and stuff, but it's, yeah, everything is just, I think much more mindful of the needs of, I don't think it's just autistic people.

It's just people, you know, and, and it's very comfortable that way. So, yeah.

Zoe: Yeah, that's such an interesting point that it's for everyone, like it's not just specifically autistic people that these things can help, like it's, yeah, so mindful of every person. David Han, would you like to share about your experience of CCH? 

David Han: Okay, I think I've just shared a bit about how I got to know about CCH.

So perhaps just to back up what I've said just now, I think it's when I got my diagnosis, I wanted to be involved in disability ministry, and I think getting to know my Autism changed many of my perspectives. Because I used to be from the Free Church of Scotland, although I might be a Singaporean. And so, and so, when I got to know about autism, it changed my perspective and I think it drove me to seek out churches or seek out people who can give me an answer.

So, as I spoke about just now, I approached Mr. Liao Wenping, and he said that within the first 15 minutes of my first meeting with him, he knew I was autistic. So, How do you do that, right? Again, you might want to ask him. But when, after he introduced me to CCH and I came to CCH, I realized that this is a church which gives a lot of space and freedom for autistic people to be themselves, which is something which Audrey has shared just now.

And you would have autistic people, Pacing around in the church. I mean, I mean making the noise, making the sounds and jumping around and you will not be able to do that in other churches. And I would dare to say that CCH is unique because though it is a liturgical church, right, but it has been able to modify its liturgy, right, to involve autistic people and non autistic people.

to worship together without separating autistic people away from non autistic people in the worship of God. And I think it reflects powerfully, right, what it means to come together as a covenant family, right, to worship the one true and living God. And this is something which I'm touched by. And I have been involved in CCH, in the Hospitality Ministry, and I've also been involved in the Rainbow of Hope, which is like a Sunday school for the autistic people with higher support needs.

And so it has been an enriching experience for me, getting to know about autistic people, their different personalities. And it amazes me, right, that they are so unique individuals. They have their own way of thinking, their own way of seeing the world. And I think it sort of, you know, allowed me to have this change of perspective, if you may ask.

And I think being in CCH has been a peaceful time for me, because the way the church building is constructed, The aesthetics, uh, are in place, it gives me a very peaceful sense compared to some other churches that have loud music, which again, sometimes I would say that they need to lower down the volume, but I need not worry about that, right, in CCH.

To put it simply, I think it has been a church where I do not feel pressured, right, to be someone else. I feel that it is a place where I can be myself and express myself. How I feel, what I think, without having to conform stringently to what some neurotypicals might want me to be. That's what I have to say.

Zoe: That's really amazing to hear both of your experiences and how Chapel of Christ Our Hope or CCH has been a place of belonging and freedom for you. And clearly CCH has worked so hard to be a place that can create that belonging and freedom for autistic people. And I'd be interested to hear from you all, um, some of the ways that you've seen the church make a difference in individual lives and in wider society.

Pastor David: Well, maybe let me, um, first share that, um, to, to, I think a sense of belonging comes when we try to cultivate an inclusive environment for autistics, um, but together with the non autistics. And of course, the autistics here, we're looking at the high support needs and so we just, we first need to understand, which may require a paradigm shift for many one, many of us.

Um, so we asked the question, what are some of the learning disabilities, the range of communication assists needed? Um, uh, for the non speaking, uh, what are the sensory issues, what are the likes and dislikes, and other helpful information that would, uh, help us to apply ourselves appropriately and intentionally.

And besides knowing the child, it also helps to understand the struggle of parents in the home, uh, or even within the community and, and in churches that they've been. Uh, so, so it's So as to provide in understanding environment. And so we found that, uh, by doing that, we, we By trying to understand them, we become not too quick to judge.

Um, and so the Lord prepares our hearts to look at them as individual persons, like any one of us, uh, understanding them, uh, also helps us to set the physical environment with visuals with boundaries and space and help them, uh, even to alleviate any kind of anxieties that they may have in the, in a community setting.

Uh, and, and, and this also helps the parents to be less anxious over their child. So I guess it's all of this together. Um, where parents slowly find, or families slowly find their relief, find relief and stability because of the, the child seeks to understand. And when parents are calm, uh, because quite often it is the parents that become very anxious over the child.

And so when they are calm in their hearts, they begin to feel the love of the people. I think that's when they get to feel. Otherwise, they are quite numb, um, by the love that's around. And so, which is really moved by the love of the father over, uh, his children. And so they feel part of the family who, uh, was, was prepared to walk together, at least to some degree.

And, and so families feel that they're not alone in this journey, but they have. other brothers and sisters in Christ, uh, in this journey. I mean, that's one of the things I see how this sense of belonging can happen.

Audrey: I, I see it as a safe space for autistic people to just have regular Christian worship. Um, because most other churches can't or they won't deal with supposedly disruptive individuals. Um, I say that in quote marks and I think there's also this particularly, but not exclusively Singaporean rationale that I'm quite critical of.

Um, where the reason for doing or not doing things is based on maximum. Efficiency and it's like a lot of towing the official line given to you without question. When you have autistic folks who are a lot more resistant to the social norms present, then they become seen as a problem because they rock the boat.

Uh, and even in other places where they have special needs ministries, again, quote marks, I have to bracket this as a term because I find it quite problematic. Um, although I'm trying to see the good intent behind it. It's, it's kind of seen more from the charity model perspective, I would say, where it's like, oh, well, pity these poor, poor autistic children.

Um, and that's also a problem where I think we are, even as adults kind of seen as children. And so I think a lot of autistic members are still not fully integrated in the main life of the church. I'm not talking about CCH, talking about most of the churches. And, um, even where there's ministry, it's kind of a sideshow ministry and, and, and they're very well meaning, you know, so I think you even have some sort of pause for consideration like that versus outright dismissal because the.

Singaporean stroke Asian response is always like, well, it's better than nothing, which is like, be grateful you have something. Um, I think that in CCH, the leader tried to take into much greater account the needs of autistic people, rather than just dismissing them outright or minimizing them.

inconvenient or unimportant. They're trying to model this and I think there's still loads of room for improvement. Um, I would say one critique I have is there isn't a lot of input from actually autistic people. That's probably the case everywhere. And well, I'm giving my input now. So, um, I, I think, you know, Pastor David's very good at, at listening and, um, leadership is a challenge because, you know, um, people, a lot of people have different opinions about things.

So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, as I said, it's kind of, it's great that it exists. and there's room for improvement. Um, I think we are, we are making progress, a lot of good progress. 

Zoe: Thank you for sharing that, and it's so interesting hearing about cultural influences on attitudes towards people, and yeah, that's important to think about as churches, and yeah, what you're saying about, um, room for improvement, I guess it kind of brings hope to everyone, and churches who maybe aren't as progressive chapel of Christ our hope that actually everyone needs to improve and it's not like you can find a perfect model necessarily, but yeah, it gives a bit of hope.

David Han, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and yeah, ways that you've seen the church making a difference. 

David Han: Okay, I think I will carry on from what Audrey has to say. I think she has given a, an astute critique of how Singapore culture, right, influences the way churches in Singapore view and talk about autism.

And from my own personal experiences, right, I think autism is seen as something to be stigmatized. It is seen as something that should not be mentioned. And if I were autistic, I shouldn't be talking about it so loudly. And this is different from what I have sensed in CCH. It gives me, CCH gives me the space to talk about the fact that I'm autistic.

I have autism. I can talk about it without feeling the shame or stigma. But I do not think that this is the case, right, for other churches in general in Singapore. Because in Singapore, right, the culture is such that we prize efficiency. As Audrey has said just now, we prize ableism. We prize, right, people, right, who can Climb up the social ladder and make it in life through their high flying careers, the jobs, and having Autism and autistic people is seen as a burden that that requires our charity and our supposed Compassion to be put forth for these autistic people And so that is why Audrey was saying that today that in some churches, perhaps a lot of churches The charity model rules the game, and there is not much of an input, right, from actual autistic people towards how churches should be run.

function towards how churches, right, could engage autistic people. So, so that is something that I share, a critique that I share with Audrey. And I think one thing that, um, CCH challenges society or changes wider society is this, is that when I see people involved in CCH, such as in worship ministry or other aspects of ministry within CCH, you will get autistic people being involved in, let's say, worship team.

I can safely say that in most churches in Singapore, autistic people will probably not be considered as suitable people to be involved in worship team. Why? Because they're seen as deficient, not spiritual enough, and therefore they are excluded. But again, we know that this is ableism and the cult of normativity that influences these biases.

So I think CCH does play a role to signal to other churches in Singapore that we should do away with this ableism. We should challenge the cult of normativity. And this is something where I see CCH are playing a significant role in. Although there can be role, room for improvement, as Audrey has said.

And I think CCH is room for improvement as well on this matter. So I think it's, uh, that's what I wish to share to add on to what Audrey has to say.

Zoe: Thank you all so much for sharing that. Yeah, so amazing. And I think I'm really struck by the way that just giving freedom and open spaces can challenge those cultural norms and that kind of cult of normalcy that you talked about. And just, yeah, it's amazing that actually such welcoming and calming steps that can do that.

Um, thank you so much for sharing all of this. I'm wondering if David and Audrey, um, you've spoken a little bit about some of the challenges that you've faced as CCH members, um, and I'm wondering if starting with Pastor David and then going to Audrey and David, you could share some of the ways that you see CCH developing and growing.

Pastor David: Well, uh, definitely there's a lot of room for improvement. Um, one, one is to, um, raise leaders. Uh, we, we do need, um, leaders, uh, in, in, in this, in this church. Um, Leaders would mean first, of course, to accept that, uh, we come from an Anglican church. So just some distinctiveness, just to understand some of these things and how we can adapt.

Uh, and, and, and of course, uh, it in, in, in tandem. With that, to also understanding autism too, um, and, and, um, and how to make effort, how we can make effort to integrate everyone together, uh, and having a decision making process that will really help everyone, um, um. The other thing is really, uh, another challenge is, um, strengthening marriages because many of our, many of our parents do struggle with a child with autism, uh, especially those with, uh, who has children.

Uh, with the highest support needs, uh, they do face all kinds of things. So, so educating families on, uh, healthy biblical marriages, uh, but also helping them to understand autism as well, uh, because not many may, may, may appreciate what's going on in the child, their sensory issues. They may not, they may not, um, fully appreciate all this.

So, so there's a lot of education needed, um, on families to firstly, of course, biblical marriages, but also to understand autism and, and, and how they can be part of a community. Um, but also to, I guess it's really, um, giving, um, um, them a sense of a family, uh, inside this spiritual church. So, so all many families become one spiritual family because this is part of what CCH is about is a community of faith in Christ that loves grow and serve.

In fact, we have this three, um, very, Keywords in our missions or vision statement, uh, love here has got to do with, uh, uh, how we are called to be a children of God. And therefore we, uh, God has called us to be a family of God. And so as a family of God, the key idea is that we are to love God and love one another.

Uh, then of course, growing has got to do with, um, um, how from 1 Peter, um, we, we, we are called out, we are called out once, right? So call out to, to, to, to do what? To be like him, right? To reflect him. So we are to grow into the likeness of Christ. And so that's another, so that's the people of God we are called to be a people of God to be like him.

And, and of course, the third, uh, word, um, serve, um, stems from the scripture verse first Corinthians 12, where he talks about the body, the body of Christ, the church is also the body of Christ. So the church is First, the family of God, the church is the people of God, the church is also the body of Christ where we also serve one another.

We are all quite different, we are diverse, but we have, uh, but we all have a purpose for the body in building up the body. So, so we serve, uh, God's purpose in that sense. So, so I guess the, the challenge is really to help everybody understand some of these things and to follow through and to live it out and to, um, to internalize and to live out some of these things that we may.

experience Christ within the body, but also beyond that. Ultimately, the church is also to be a blessing to others. And, and, and, and that is why I think, um, in, in, um, the first three years, uh, after the, after three years into the formation of the church, I think we, we realized that, um, there were other churches and communities who also wanted to to learn how they can embrace persons with special needs in their own communities.

And so they've made one or two visits to with us and had dialogues, had discussions, um, and, and, and, and really, uh, really wanting to do this. And so we see ourselves as inspiring other communities to better represent the nature of the church really, uh, in this broken world. So that's, these are just some of my challenges that I think the church is moving forward.

Zoe: Thank you for sharing that. And it's, yeah, so interesting, just the impact that educating people on autism can have on inclusion and belonging. Um, yeah, and the impact you're having on other people and communities. Um, Audrey, would you like to share anything about how you kind of see CCH developing and growing?

I know you've shared a little bit, but yeah. 

Audrey: Um, for me, I hope that we'll be able to, um, not just run services that are more mindful of autistic people present, but there'd be greater integration. between neurotypical and neurodivergent members of religious communities. Um, like I said, I think religious communities tend to be, there, there's a lot more expectation of behavioral conformity and even thinking, you know, in, in the same way.

And I think we can share these spiritual values. Um, but, um, there, You know, I think there is a lot more freedom to be yourself. For example, I've been in Scotland for about seven, eight months and it's been, um, very different for me here. I think my mental health has really improved just because I felt, I felt like society is just less judgmental.

So I think seeing CCH as, as what it is now and, and as Pastor David said, people come to learn from us. I hope that we could be a leading voice for not just, uh, the services we run, but for a clear theology of autism that isn't based on the charity model of ministry and, or even intolerance.

Um, but which generally values neurodivergence, um, not even saying it's a superpower because there's a bit of that, you know, um, that's, that's kind of how people get over it. Um, I think it's, can we see it as a legitimate difference? Um, Can we have empathy and patience with one another? And autistics need patience with neurotypicals, too.

Um, you know. And even though it looks like there are different wavelengths in operation, you know, so we might need to have a greater mutual appreciation of the multiplicity of ways of communication. And I think all behavior is communication. Autistic people have communicative behaviors that are less typical.

Um, and I think even maybe especially, especially in the nonverbal forms, if we're willing to learn these other languages and listen to one another, then we give and we gain something truly beautiful. And valuable. So I think this is very challenging in a fast paced society that prizes meritocracy and conformity where I think that, you know, even inclusion is seen by the state as setting KPIs.

There are KPIs in their enabling master plan and it's called enabling the disabled. So, so I. I mean, I have a lot to say about this, so I'm going to stop here just to say I think there are multiple, um, factors at play, and culturally, and by culture, I just mean, you know, the sort of norms that we have. I hope that we can kind of, um, expand that to say maybe not one way is normative or acceptable, but there are multiple ways that we communicate, that we um, just allow people to, to live and to be.

David Han: Yeah, I think it's, uh, some of the things which I would like to share has been shared by Pastor David himself and Audrey.

And, you know, just to carry on from what Audrey has said, I think she was talking about the enabling plan. And as you know, in Singapore, to be critical of the government could get me into trouble, given the type of political system that we have in this country. But. But what I can say is that it's, um, with regards to CCH, where I think it can develop in the years to come, it's not only to have more leaders who can understand autism, it's just to add on to what Pastor David has said.

I think it is also good to have leaders who are autistic themselves, since they themselves will be able to understand what autism is about. And this is where my critique of the Enabling Singapore Plan is. because they thought about enabling, enabling them, right, to fulfill certain functions within Singapore society, but not enabling them to fulfill leadership roles.

Because there's an implicit assumption in the Singapore enabling plan, that autistic people, right, can't fulfill important roles in society, such as leadership roles. And I hope the CCH can be that voice to challenge Some of those assumptions, and I think this goes in well with what scripture says. Even you Apostle Paul in his book or in his letter to the Corinthians especially, and not many of us are called in.

Not many are not. Many of us are wise according to both standards. So if we can have an autistic leader, autistic pastor. people who take on leadership roles within the church. I think it will really magnify what Apostle Paul has to say in the letter to Corinthians. And I will also want to add on to what Audrey has to say, that had said just now, which is that there is a need for greater understanding of what autism is.

It's not just deficit. It's a different way of being, and I hope the CCH, right, going forward will be able to perhaps broaden its perspective of what autism is about, not just a set of deficits that needs to be handled properly, but it is a different way of being, a new divergence where it is a different way of being in terms of how we understand the world, how we view the world.

And I think we need to have the kind of culture, cultural exposure, right? The kind of setting where people within CCH CCH will get exposed to different perspectives to what neurodivergence is about. And because one of the things that I've noticed even within the context of CCH is that I've come across perspectives from family members or caregivers who would always view autism as deficits, but not as a different way of being, which neurodivergent perspective would want to champion.

So, I think there is a need for growth in this aspect, a need for growth of greater appreciation by autistic people towards, towards, uh, neurotypicals and vice versa. So I think it will take time, but I think that it is moving on towards that direction. I mean, with people, individuals like myself. And even people like Audrey.

And I hope that we can play a positive role in how CCH progresses in the future.

Zoe: Thank you so much for sharing that. And you've all kind of touched on the idea of CCH being somewhere that can almost inspire and educate other churches on inclusion and changing perspectives on autism. And obviously CCH is very unique in what it does, but I wonder what advice each of you would give to churches, um, and our listeners who are in churches and want to create communities where autistic people thrive, but maybe just don't know where to start.

What advice would you give those people in churches?

Pastor David: Well, um, in Singapore, we, we, a number of our parents have actually taken the initiative to write stories, uh, of families with, um, children or adults with autism. And, and maybe, one of the first thing is just to, you know, Read stories. Yeah, allow story, the narrative to speak and and to dramatize and to help them identify Some things are best is best learned through stories.

I think that's that's the first thing Then of course they can read Then they when then when they go to the Bible and they study and they try to analyze perhaps they might Allow them to see certain things certain aspects of God. Yeah Another is, of course, just to visit churches that are practicing it.

Visit, immerse, be with them, join them for a service. You can talk about it, but it's nothing like being there, or maybe even to volunteer for that matter. Spend some time. I'm not sharing this because we need manpower, but But it's, I think that's the best way to learn, just to be immersed in the situation.

So, so even like in the autism center, we have people just coming to immerse themselves and, and it is in doing so, then you can feel and you can think and you, you can, um, you, you, you, Intuitively, you know how to do, um, you know what you should be doing, yeah. And so it's a matter of speaking to your leadership in church and so forth.

So I think that's, that's, uh, reading, uh, stories, visiting churches that is practicing, dialoguing with people who are trying their best, um, and of course, uh, Uh, praying and, and be patient, uh, because it's not easy for any church to come around and do this. I think many, I, I've spoken to many, many who wants to do this in their church and they struggle with the leadership in the church, like you say.

So, so I tell them to pray and, and, and maybe even to pray for their leaders. Yeah. And, and if you can get your leaders to come over, that's, that will be best. Right. Yeah. So, so. So I guess some of these things, uh, I'm sure Audrey and David can add on.

Audrey: Okay, um, so I, I like what Pastor David said about all these, um, practices, but I, I would think, um, start first with an attitude of humble love and service and start with accepting people. As God made them to be, and, um, maybe we should stop trying to change inherent traits. I think especially in the church, I would say, stop trying to co opt religious fervor in order to change how people are, because, you know, we are just born the way we are.

And if we could take a step back to consider perhaps God's place, the neurodivergent amongst you to, um, trouble the comfortable and comfort the trouble. That's something that a professor of mine once said, and yeah, if you could welcome neurodivergent who are troubling your unchallenged your previously unchallenged norms and unquestioned biases of how things are meant to be, I think, um, that's a great start just being open to that, um, because personally, I've come to see my own existence this way.

That most of my life I've been told most in positive ways, you know, but sometimes with this sigh of resignation, like, Oh, it takes someone like you, Audrey, to do whatever I'm doing or say what I'm whatever I'm saying, you know, speaking up, pointing out things that look amiss, or, or being fully invested with passion in something special interest, being a whistleblower.

I, I like to see myself sometimes as that kid who sticks his finger out and says, the emperor has no clothes, um, and pretty much resisting the tyranny of the cult of normalcy and normativity. So I, I see neurodivergence as not a disability, not a deficit, like David Hahn said, but as a gift to society, to the church, really, especially, um, a prophetic gift.

If we're willing to stop and take notice.

David Han: And I think I would like to, uh, carry on from, uh, what Professor David had said earlier on. I think, I think I will use three words to describe what I think would be good advice. for churches who want to create communities where autistic people are accepted.

Listen, understand, change. And I think one fundamental thing that needs to be done here, right, it's before we go into the practicalities of what sort of facilities that we need, what sort of practices that we need in church to accept autistic people, the attitude must change, as Audrey was saying We need to sit down and listen to the stories, the experiences.

and to understand why autistic people think and behave in a certain way, speak in a certain way. Because if we do not want to have an attitude of openness to understand and listen what autistic people have to say, what their experiences are, more or less what would happen is that churches would just keep on to them like religious fervor, right?

expecting them to conform the way that neurotypicals do, which is what Audrey was trying to convey just now. Because I came across situations where, where, you know, I was in discussion groups on regards to disability issues and it was in a church setting and so straight away the people were saying, let's have these facilities, let's have these, um, um, things that we could do for autistic people and caregivers and family members.

But I realized that something was missing. Do they understand what autism is? Do they understand what neurodivergent is? That's why I really appreciate what Pastor David shared just now. The need to understand, the need to learn about autism. And that is where I think CCH has played a significant role because it is a place where people can come and learn about what autism is.

And if you know what autism is and what neurodivergent is, I think there is need to change in the sense of discarding defective theologies. that I think are unhelpful in understanding what autism is and how to encompass autistic people. And I would dare to say, and I'll be very upfront here, autistic people are not known to be, to, to hide their true feelings.

So I'll be very blunt here. I'm willing to say that professional reform theology, reform tradition, especially where I came from, used to come from A serious deficiency in this. I will not go into details, but we need to discard some of those faulty theologies that have shaped the way that we have engaged autistic people.

And once that is, can be done, I think everything else would fall into place. Um, that's my perspective. 

Zoe: Thank you for sharing that, and I think it's so easy for churches to want like a checklist of things that will make their church more autistic friendly, but what you're really all saying is it's listening, it's understanding autism, and as you said, immersing yourself in these communities that are addressing autism and faith in a healthy and welcoming way.

Um, yeah, it's really helpful what you've all shared. It's been an absolute delight to speak with you all and hear more about CCH, um, and what the church is doing. And I hope that our listeners will have some inspiration from this church and yeah, everything that we've discussed today. And thank you to everyone who's listened today.

If you have any questions or just want to say hi, you can find us on social media at Autism and Theology, or email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk. And if as listeners you would like to hear more about the Chapel of Christ our Hope, we'll add some links into the show note for their website and other resources that you can have a look at.

And if you have any questions for Pastor David, Audrey or David Han, just send us an email and we can pass. that on to them. Thank you so much for listening.