Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome Kathy.
Welcome back Helen.
Welcome.
Thank you.
We
Helen: are delighted
Anke: to be here.
Helen: I'm really excited to be here.
Thank you so much for having us,
Anke: and I'm very excited to have you because we have a very
specific, exciting reason for it.
But I'll let, um, you start out with, let people know where in
this lovely world you're based and what's your business with dogs.
Kathy: Kathy, you go
Anke: first.
Kathy: Okay, I'll go first.
Just 'cause my side is the young side.
I guess that it begins with the young side.
Yes.
So, so Helen and I have just, uh, written a new book called Old Dog.
New Dog.
And what that means, we're talking about as your beloved dog is
starting to age sometimes that makes you think about, Ooh, is it time?
Should we get a new puppy now or is it too late?
Is this a good time?
We're not really sure.
Um.
We both get that question.
Um, I'm the puppy side of that question and Helen gets it from the other side.
Anyway, so yeah, my expertise is in puppies, so I, um, I have a, I'm a
dog trainer, certified professional dog trainer and with my own business,
and I do specialize in puppy hood.
I also foster puppies.
That's kind of how this all got started, is we have fostered 250 rescue puppies.
Our family has super fun.
Everyone's sort of like, oh, what is that?
It is to me a total delight.
I just, I love it.
I love to take the moms and who have landed in a shelter.
Maybe they're pregnant, maybe they've had their babies, maybe
they're just a week old, and I love to give them the safety they need.
To settle in, relax and nurture these babies.
And then of course we nurture them too.
Have a great time, get them hooked up with other owners and that.
That's originally actually how I got into dog to being a professional dog
trainer was because I was helping all the adopters through puppy hood.
You know, I hand over this wiggly little guy, he's so cute, it's great.
And then three days later, the people are.
Calling me like, what have I done?
So I started helping them through puppy hood that way, and then studied
and studied, became a dog trainer.
And um, and I love it.
It's really fun.
I think puppy hood gets a bad rap, um, lot.
It can be fantastic and joyful.
And it is often not because people have funky little expectations that
are, uh, that are ruining their time in Puppyhood and frankly,
their puppy time in Puppyhood.
So I like to help get everybody oriented so that it can be.
The lovely experience that, that I know it can be.
So that's me.
And now here's Helen.
Helen: Um, so I am Helen St.
Pierre.
I am the, uh, founder and executive director of a nonprofit found,
uh, nonprofit right here in my, uh, home called Old Dogs.
Go to Helen, which is a 5 0 1 C3 here in New Hampshire.
Um, and we've had old dogs go to Helen now for about.
Seven years.
It's seven years in August.
Um, but I've been in the animal and canine professional world, world for 23 years
and I started my career in shelter work, um, and was a certified vet tech for,
and did have been sort of in the behavior and animal field my entire career.
Um.
But realized after doing a lot of work that Kathy was doing, you know,
most of us dog trainers are in and out of the shelter world a lot.
We get our, we bring our work home with us.
Let's just put it that way.
That, um, something that was really missing was people
wanting to bring home the.
Sickest oldest dogs, um, you know, and I started bringing them in and
giving them a wonderful end of life.
And then, uh, letting them pass and then doing it again.
And slowly what happened is, uh, people wanted to help contribute.
At that point, we, Jake, my husband and I, were doing it completely out
of pocket, and then our phone started to ring and we started to get all
kinds of really complex medical cases.
And it's sort of like snowballed, let's just put it that way.
Um, and senior dogs have always been a huge piece of who I am.
I've always had a senior dog in my home.
Um, and it wasn't until my personal senior dog Merlin passed.
That I realized just what the presence of a senior dog in a
multi-generational household with senior animals in and around can do for
the younger animals in the household.
And so, um, it was kind of like, it, it's been a very organic, slow build.
And now I have.
14 senior hospice dogs.
In my, uh, sanctuary, we have senior and hospice horses, goats, pigs.
I mean, basically you name it.
We just took in a 14-year-old hospice main coon this weekend.
We do anything old and.
Sick and potentially bald with no teeth and smells really bad
is welcome at our home any day.
Um, and so that's me, that's where I come in.
Um, but I, what I love the most about what Kathy's saying is about how she's like, I
want the mamas with the babies is like the exceptional amount of work that that is.
And it, I'm on the other end of like the exceptional amount of
work, of the end of life, but.
Both involve a lot of poop.
Kathy: That's so true.
That's what unites us really, is we have a lot of poop and pee happy.
We clean up a lot of
Helen: poop and pee.
Kathy: Yeah.
Anke: For different reasons.
That is so funny.
I love that.
Actually, it's really interesting because when I, when I just heard
you, it's like I actually do have exactly that mix in my house now.
I have a 3-year-old.
Massive girl.
And, uh, and Mrs.
Ada is now 12, 12 and a bit 12 and a half.
Yeah.
Okay.
And, uh, I really, I, I always felt it was a luxury to have the two
together because, I mean, all I, all my dogs came to me as puppies, right.
But the last one, it felt I didn't have to.
Right.
So I mean we had some other lucky sort of circumstances in the sense
that she came from a farm environment.
So she basically, by accident, came toilet trained.
So we brought her home and she was like, okay, got in her,
well that this massive crate.
'cause I knew she was gonna be big and there was this tiny little fluff ball
and in the big cushion and she was just wedging out there relaxing, like sleeping.
I'm like, and then all of a sudden she gets up.
And that little bear, like she just sort of wobbles through the door,
goes outside where there's some grass and peace and we're like, okay, this
is what you think the way this goes.
You just keep doing what you're doing.
That was toilet training for us.
Right.
She just was used to peeing on grass, so that's what she did.
You know, she Well, and I didn't, she had one accident in the house, like
Kathy: that's it.
I do suspect that also in your house, because you have those
other dogs, the scent is outside.
And so this is one of the things that really is pretty guaranteed, is that your
potty training generally goes a little bit faster with a puppy if you have any
adult dog who is fully house broken in your house, because that scent is so
powerful and if it is in the right spot, it's gonna be working in your favor.
So
Anke: yeah, no, totally.
And then also the crazy play.
You know, when she was just like.
She took all of that with the patient of the saint, you know, so, so, yeah.
You know, they're still going strong, so, you know, here we go.
And, uh, yeah.
So I'm really curious.
I mean, I can totally see how, you know, lots of poop at the end, at the beginning.
And, and how did this idea of actually writing a book together,
how did that can come about?
I would imagine it's not just like, okay, front part is about pp,
about is about how did you.
Kathy: We
Helen: take it away, Kathy.
Kathy: Okay.
Okay.
So we both were, um, presenting at the, at a dog conference.
A lot of people are surprised to find there is such a thing as a dog conference.
There are dog conferences and we were presenting, um,
I was presenting on puppies.
Helen was presenting on oldies, um, at the Legs Conference.
Kim Brophy's, um, ethology based group, uh, is the Family Dog Mediation group.
And so we were, uh, both presenting on those things and we both listened
to each other's presentations and were like, Hey, hang on, because there was
so much symmetry there and there was.
Just, we were both grounded in the same stuff.
We're talking about the same things.
And um, so basically we came up to each other after those,
uh, after those presentations, we were like, you know what, no
seriously, we should write a book.
Because also, not only are the things we talk about very similar,
but we both get that question.
Um, and the answer.
Is complicated and, um, you know, uh, sometimes it's, as you describe, which
is it worked out beautifully for you.
Your older dog was interested in doing that.
Sometimes it's, um, a lot rockier and everyone hopes for the dream.
Helen and I both love the overlap.
We love the idea of your old dog.
Um.
Um, setting the stage and helping teach and how, and you love the
idea of a relationship between the two of them, but it doesn't always
go as beautifully as you described.
And so we, um, both get that question all the time, as do many vets and trainers.
We've looked and looked.
There is no resource about this.
There are plenty of dog, plenty of books on puppies, including mine.
Um, and then there are plenty of books on oldies, but there.
Is not a little resource that you can look to, to help assess,
wait a sec, should I do this?
Is this a good idea for me right now?
And if you've just done it a little guide to help you smooth the way and,
uh, help it turn into this scenario that.
That you have just described.
So what about, what, what did I forget, Helen?
Helen: No, nothing.
I mean, that's exactly where it, it, you know, originated from.
I think that something that was really important for me with
listening to Kathie's talk and then knowing Ka through her.
I had seen her book.
Prior, and it was amazing, was also, um, knowing that she was on the same
wavelength that I was in assessing quality of life and how we evaluate
what I call quality of death because, um, you know, there's a huge.
Disconnect for a lot of people on how we measure whether an animal is
actually living life to their fullest.
And I'm not just talking about senior animals, I'm talking
about younger animals too.
And that was really important to me in our collaboration, was that
we both were on the same page in helping people really start to broaden
their perspective and ideas of what.
A good life should look like as well as, which we talk about
in the book, a good death.
And, um, so it was, to me it was like a no brainer.
It was just, it needed to happen and it did, it needed to happen.
And it did an honest,
Anke: know each other personally before Right.
No
Kathy: knew of each other.
We knew of each other.
And see, I kid you not, we basically hugged when we
met, we were like, oh my God.
And then we did sort of outline the book over the coffee break there.
Yeah.
And I'm not, and that was in December.
We.
The publisher said good idea in like January, and the manuscript was done
in July, and that is very, very fast.
And I'm telling you, it just felt like it just rolled off of us because this
stuff has been in both of our heads for a really long time and it made so
much sense to marry these two topics, help people think about these two ends
of the age spectrum at the same time.
What's it gonna take for you to do this?
Well, those, these are both.
Beautiful stages.
These are very intense stages, or they can be very intense stages.
And so we don't always know when we look on paper, like if we see you, if
you describe your house and describe what your older dog is like and kind
of what your household is like, and whether you have a fence and whether
you have room in your house to make a little puppy corner or a senior square.
Um.
We're still not really gonna know because nobody's gonna know.
E every dog is a unique individual.
All these families are unique individuals.
We don't know how it's gonna roll until we see it.
We can guess and we can help you set it up.
Um, and then we kind of need to watch and adjust and what it will take for you.
It might be lovely.
The older dog might just be like, you know what?
This is what I've been waiting for.
I love this.
I love passing this off to this new puppy.
And the puppy may be strangely, actually, like my little pork chop,
the little, little rescue you were talking about, who's in my house
until yesterday, might be one of those puppies who just has a sense and
does modulate himself without even.
Needing much direction from the older dog.
You might get that dream scenario.
You also might not, you also might get the older dog who is like, are you kidding me?
This is the last thing I wanted.
What do you mean you thought I wanted a friend?
This is awful.
Uh, this, this little thing is biting me and jumping on me and all I wanna
do is nap in the sun and this pu and you might get the kind of puppy
who takes no direction really from the other dog in the beginning.
And so that means.
This decision depends on how much bandwidth you have.
The humans in the house have to have the bandwidth to manage this on a practical
level because if that puppy's bursting with energy, it's up to you then not.
You cannot just make the older dog, uh, you know, entertain the bup.
And you also need to have the emotional bandwidth because
it's emotional to have a puppy.
And it's very emotional to have a beloved old dog who is getting older.
And you might have some.
Decisions to make.
So that's, that's you.
That's you, Helen.
Helen: Yeah.
No, I mean that's, you said it Kathy.
It's perfect, perfect way to put it.
Anke: It's actually interesting now, when I would look back, when, when little
Leah came, uh, Kai was still alive as well, and he probably, well, it worked
out for all of them because Kai, it was really funny the way we brought the day.
We brought her home.
He was actually the one who was like, oh.
Oh, who is that?
Right?
Versus the other girl goes.
Take this thing away.
What is this?
Right.
Yeah.
So, so that was the initial reaction.
But then after a couple of days, I think she nipped him
in the nuts a couple of times.
So he then no longer wanted anything to do with her.
Right.
But the thing was, because the other one then go, oh, I think
I like you, and stepped in.
He could step out and have nothing to do with, you know, and then.
Like he, he wasn't doing anything against her, but he was just like, when she would.
The other one had stepped in, so there was that, you know, he had
somewhere to go, so he didn't, he wasn't forced to to deal with it.
Poor thing, you know?
But it was really funny because he initially was the one who was more
open initially, but then, like, it literally shifted in a couple of days.
So I can totally see in.
A friend of mine literally had a conversation the other day.
She has a, a, like a big ter.
Very funny 'cause she's very little, right?
And, and so the dog always looks bigger than her in photos.
It's quite funny.
But then she got a puppy and now the big dog is like seven, eight years old.
And that's, she's found somebody else to take care of the puppy because,
you know, she, you know, all of a sudden, like she can't, like she was
on the couch now and now that little thing is in, in there everywhere.
So it's like he doesn't cut off.
Well, he's got kicked out of daycare and stuff, so, you know, so she hasn't
got the bandwidth for both of them.
Like, and she didn't expect this to be, you know, such
a, such a, such an upheaval.
And also the other, the older dog isn't happy at all, you know, so you can
take this thing away from me, you know?
So that's definitely a case where it hasn't worked out.
So it isn't all of a sudden, like, it's not just like, oh, just bring the
puppy home and everybody will be happy.
So what do you, what do you suggest?
Like, how can somebody.
What, let's ask this way.
What do need pe?
What do people need to take into account to make the decision?
Kathy: I think the first thing is, yeah, because I think the first
thing is the status of the older dog.
Helen: Yes.
I, I completely agree.
So, you know, if there's a current dog or dogs in the household, you
really have to look at their tolerance level, their size, their age, if they
are affected by any form of disease or, um, hindrance at that point.
You know, if they're losing their eyesight, if they're losing their hearing,
if they're more arthritic, you know, uh.
An 18-year-old Maltese that's blind is not going to be easily
implemented with an eight week old German Shepherd puppy, right?
So like there's all these different moving variables.
You know, I look at like jigsaw puzzle pieces.
You know, it's much easier to put two jigsaw puzzle pieces together, even
if they're not from the same puzzle, if they're from the same size versus.
Completely different.
So that there's a lot of things that you need to consider.
It's not that that can't work, but you might need to really implement a
ton more management and be okay with literally having separate lives for
both dogs versus the idea that this puppy will instantly know how to handle.
And, and again, so that.
That's sort of where I look at it is the, the, the senior
dog and or the current dogs.
And then again, as Kathy was saying, the puppies, there are puppies that will come
in and say, oh, you are a senior dog and I need to know how to modify my behavior.
Sometimes just like kids, you know how they are just kids that naturally go.
Oh yeah, I can't jump on grandma, um, the way that I jump on.
But there are kids and there are puppies that have no concept of spatial
awareness or deferring to certain needs.
And that's where working with, whether it's the rescue or the
shelter or the breeder and saying, this is what we have at home and
these are the kinds of temperaments and personalities that we need.
Um.
But it's, it's understanding all of those variables and knowing what,
dependent on those variables, what each scenario might look different than this.
We just bring them home and they're fine together.
I.
Is that okay?
Is that answer, Kathy?
I think no, I think that's
Kathy: exactly right and it, it could be, here's the thing, it's our fondest
hope and dream for you that you will be able to bring the puppy home and
that your senior dog actually feels in good enough shape to be excited to deal
with that puppy and hang out with that puppy, and that they will find a way
to be friends immediately and you won't have to do that much management, but.
It's likely, and you just wanna be prepared for the fact that you might have
to have some pens and gates and fencing up a little bit longer than you intended.
Not that you have to have that going 24 7, but you do have to have that
as an option for when the, the.
Biggest most important piece of advice we have is not to stick your old dog
or even any adult dog, frankly, with a puppy 24 7, because frankly, they
did not choose that we added this.
They might, they might end up being happy with it, but they, they were
not in the decision circle when they did not raise their paw and say,
yes, I would like to add the toddler, and then suddenly there's this.
Possibly wild toddler in their face 24 7, and the puppy will
choose the other dog over you.
No matter how fun you are.
That puppy's gonna be really drawn to that other dog in the household all the time.
And humans are gonna, we are all too busy.
And we're gonna be tempted to let that older dog take the brunt of it and
we're gonna be like, you know what?
The puppy's being quiet right now, he's with the older dog.
It's fine.
And we're gonna try to go do our zoom and go focus on our thing
and go do the scroll doom scroll.
Um, so we need to just not do that.
Like, so we need to set it up, set up the house, and set up our schedule, set
up our mindset to understand that the puppy's gonna be with the older dog.
In the beginning, only in a supervised way, and we're gonna help them be friends
by doing a bunch of good things that allow them to del develop that friendship
without just being shoved together.
We're gonna help support that and that may take a day.
A week, three months or a year, you know, it's gonna take as long as it takes.
And so that, that's our biggest, our biggest, uh, push for you guys
is to be ready to have, to really manage, really supervise both
physically with, um, equipment in your house that allows your senior
dog always to opt away from the puppy.
Always can choose, you know, what?
Not right now, and you're watching enough that you can help that senior
dog go to go, go to a different part of the house, and then guess what?
It's up to you.
The puppy is gonna need some, you know, maybe he's gonna need a stuffed topple.
Maybe he's gonna need a play date with a neighbor.
This is the thing.
You have to think about what.
What other options do you have?
What kind of village do you have?
Do you have friends?
Do you have kids?
Do you have teenagers next door?
Who would love nothing more than to take the puppy to their house for an hour?
That's huge for the puppy, terrific for everyone else.
So it doesn't mean that you have to have a ton of extra time, but you
have to have the willingness and the bandwidth to think about what
kind, how can we make this work?
Um, and you may need it, you may not, but, uh, but it, uh,
anticipation is your friend.
Yeah,
Anke: pro proactive and patients I'm hearing, right.
And that's something like, I wanna kinda almost underline because I mean, I've
seen things where people got a puppy and you know, and then like literally two
days later, oh, the puppy was crying.
They're like, what the heck did you expect?
Right?
Like this puppy, you know?
So I, I think it's probably pretty rare that it's a matter of a couple of days.
You know, I think, I think people, I.
Need to expect this.
I mean, well, if it, if it ends up being seamless, well great.
But you can't kind of go in expecting that.
And I think you need to have that patience to put the, you know,
when, like when you're saying like, oh yeah, months could be a year.
Like, you know, so, right.
Kathy: Yeah.
And the thing is, you know, the way we're talking about it, I guess it, it's got a
little bit of a negative cast on it and I just wanna make sure to point out that
I love to back burner everything else and put dog relationships in the front.
I think it's grounding and centering and peace inducing for me to do that.
So, you know, as, as I know, it's sounding like a cautionary tale kind
of thing, the way we're talking.
But I also wanna say that like, it's wonderful.
To do that, you just wanna be ready to understand that your life is gonna change.
Um, and this is gonna be one of those intense periods where
this is what you're focusing on.
And I, I love to focus on that.
I think it's, it can be an incredibly beautiful moment for you, for your.
Partner for whoever else lives in your house, for your kids.
If you got kids, it can be a really beautiful phase and it can be really fun.
I just don't want it to take you by surprise that you feel like,
wait, all I'm doing is dogs.
I want you to be like me and Helen and be like, cool.
All I'm doing is dogs.
Helen: Yeah.
It's, it's so important to remember that for a lot of people.
They don't observe, you know, if you ever watch a mother raising her puppies, there
are clearly moments as those puppies get older and they start to wean that.
Mom goes, I need a break.
I need a break.
Please give me a break.
Um, and if you haven't observed that and you've never seen
it, you won't understand.
Um, that sort of, that really important piece of like, there
has to be some separation.
We don't just sort of throw them together like two pieces
of Play-Doh and now that's it.
They, they stay together, you know, even us as mothers or parents have a
biological inclination to love our kids.
But there are moments where we're like, please, I need
to go in the other room and.
Close the door for a little bit.
Right?
And when you put it that way with people, it's like we're not trying
to be total doomers here, but it is really important to understand that
there's going to be necessary times where we need to put that separation in.
And that doesn't mean things are going wrong, it just means that
you're proactively helping make sure that they continue to go well.
Because as we know, mothers that are left with their kids all
day, every day end up being like.
I'm gonna break if I don't have five minutes to myself.
And I feel like when we put that perspective in for
people, they go, oh, okay.
Right.
Yeah.
It's, there's nothing wrong with my dog.
There's nothing wrong with my puppy.
We just need to be implementing what we ourselves need often as well.
Yeah.
Anke: Yeah.
That makes so much sense because, I mean, I think I just wouldn't want people
to underestimate what they're getting themselves into, you know, because that
then, then people, if they think it's gonna be, oh, just be a puppy home.
And then, you know, and it all, and then if something doesn't go smoothly
immediately, then they instantly gotta lose patience instantly.
Like, oh, maybe that wasn't, like, give the puppy back, get rid of the dog.
I, I've seen heartbreaking things in shelters, you know, and they kind of.
How can you do that?
But you know, it's like if you underestimate what you're in for, you
know what it requires of you then, then I think you are more likely to
make a big drama out of some little thing that didn't quite go your way.
I.
Kathy: I think that's exactly right.
If you just set the expectation right, that there are gonna be some challenging
moments here, and so you, all you need to do is anticipate that, think through
how you're gonna manage that, and um, and it's, you know, it'll be all right.
But, um, but it, you're so right.
We don't want you to get into a spiral where every single day
you're surprised by, wait a sec, this was harder than I thought.
I can't believe I needed to step in.
So instead of you're expecting, okay, we're gonna manage, and this part
of the day is gonna be pretty hard.
This, this, this.
Thing is gonna work like clockwork.
And then let's plan to have the neighbor do this and let's plan.
You know, you, as long as you think it through ahead of time and you arm
yourself with good stuffed topples in your freezer and you've got plenty of
stuff to chew, and you've got options for outdoor nature play and you're
letting the puppy dig a hole in the dirt, in the backyard, because that's it.
As long as you are meeting those needs, if you have the bandwidth to meet the
needs of both of those dogs and you.
Aren't thrown all the time by, wait a sec, they need me again.
Uh, you can dive into this and it can be a beautiful, beautiful situation.
Anke: Hmm.
Now that, that brings up something else, um, when the older dog gets
older, like basically when the older dog passes, like what's your experience?
Um.
You know, for the younger dog or like in, in my case, I've had the two boys
pass and always there, there have been younger dogs in the house and I always
had the sense like, you know what, I think they know, they knew way before I did.
So I never had a case where, you know, they were like visibly upset or strange.
You know, like, like have a friend of mine where there's literally one dog
goes and the other one's like literally whining, you know, like crying.
So what's, what's your experience there or any tips or any thoughts?
Helen: So, you know, I'll, if you want me to, Kathy, I can answer that.
If you, so, you know, grief, what we're talking about is, is grief, not the actual
death there, there's two pieces to this.
You know, the death of the.
Um, and you know, and, and I'm such an uplifting person to be
around 'cause I'm always telling people like, death is inevitable.
Like, we can't escape death.
We are all going to experience it.
And when we bring an animal into our home, we are accepting not
just the responsibility of raising them as a puppy, but seeing them
through to the end of their life.
And, uh, we don't talk about that.
Piece of it enough.
And so death can be, um, prepared for, and, um, absence can be
worked through proactively, just like we're talking about here.
Especially if you have a puppy that comes into the home with a dog that might be
elderly, but not fully transitioning and going into pre dying yet.
But if they've only learned their life in the context with another dog in the home
and then that other dog is getting ready to pass, there are things that people
can be doing proactively then that will help ease that actual death piece and
the absence, um, a little bit easier.
Um.
But the grief piece afterwards is, you know, it really again,
is very dependent on the dogs, the relationship that they had.
I mean, um, but grief is subjective.
It is very individual to the person, to the animals.
I'll never forget when one of my, uh, dogs passed and they had been a unit.
They were my two Papillons and Merlin ran up the stairs and he stopped
at the top of the stairs and he looked behind him because sweet pea
would always come up behind him.
And that was an initial, like, he just couldn't help it.
It was a complete reflexive move of, are you coming?
She wasn't there.
And he did that for about three or four weeks until.
That past, you know, those, um, those spontaneous bursts of that
neuro pathway of behavior, which we all know if we've lost a dog, right?
We go to fill that old bowl that is no longer of a dog that's no longer
there, or we call their name as we call them in from the yard, and they're.
Not there anymore.
And our, our dogs are going to go through that process as well.
It's not something that we should rush.
It's um, really this overlap of your grieving and now we're
learning life in a new context.
And, um, if you need support, there are plenty of now pet loss, um, grief
counselors that can help with the, the human version and the animal version.
But it's also just a part of.
Being alive on this earth is we're going to experience death
in some way, shape, or form.
We don't have to not talk about it or avoid it.
Um, we can, the more we prep for it and understand how to handle it,
actually the better everybody does.
In the end, I.
Kathy: So this brings us to what I think, so of course I'm the puppy person,
but if I were just a dog owner on this planet, I would say the reason to buy
this book is for Helen's chapter on, um, on when it's time for your older dog.
You know, this is, we get these questions all the time.
So do all, every vet, every trainer, how do I know when it's time and
what's that gonna be like in.
You know, we have this general discomfort with death.
We don't wanna see it, we don't wanna think about it.
And it does contribute to a lot of folks not quite recognizing the signs that their
dog is declining and they're, they're not noticing they should be adjusting
their behavior a little bit more.
Their dog is having a lot of trouble crossing the slippery wood floor and
a lot of trouble going upstairs and trouble, and it come to think of it
isn't getting on the couch anymore and.
Is avoiding, you know, used to love Thanksgiving when everybody came over.
Now is kind of seeking to be in the back room at that time.
It's super important to notice all those things.
And Helen talks about that, about, you know, be, be aware, be aware of, of the
changes that your seniors going through.
The more aware you are.
The more ready you'll be to decide, um, when it's time.
And a lot of people, you know, um, my daughter works at a vet.
She's, um, she's in vet school and there's just a lot of folks
who come in and are just not.
Ready at all.
And the, the vets are sitting there hoping, hoping, hoping that the people
will be coming in and agreeing to put this poor animal out of its misery.
But instead they want the vet to do every little thing.
Um, and believe it or not, you know, a lot of people think the
vets wanna make a bunch of money and, you know, um, keep these dogs.
They do not.
They are sitting there waiting for you to see.
See the light that this is, we have, we are so lucky that we get
to decide to, that our friends don't have to suffer this way.
Um, but instead we let them suffer this way and we kind of hope they're gonna
have a natural death, which as Helen talks about, like it's, it's natural death is
not the sweet little thing that you think.
They do not go downstairs, curl up in their little bed and just go night night.
It is a lot of suffering and.
Often what happens is that people are hoping for that they can't face
the euthanasia decision, and then they end up with a crisis, and the
crisis is terribly painful for the dog, and so then they rush to the er.
Now, this is lots of stress, lots of trauma.
And then it's not inappropriate to think about the finances.
So, you know, sometimes this can just be an extraordinary stress on the
family for a dog that quite honestly, we probably should have let go last week
and we could have done in a peaceful, controlled manner with the whole
family calmly ready to say goodbye.
Anyway, I'm just saying Helen's chapter on this will help anybody to start to
come to grips with this and um, be ready.
To move through this really important, even beautiful part of your dog's
journey, um, with some grace.
Anke: Hmm.
I love that.
I mean, I, I was too, and I always like, funny enough, actually the,
that was always my big question, you know, it was like, how would I know?
Because I always thought, I don't want.
I don't want him to suffer because I can't let go.
I don't wanna, you know, like I don't wanna kill off a perfectly fine
and I don't wanna kill off a dog.
That's fine.
And could have easily recovered, you know, that's just a little off,
you know, there's a stomach bug and I'm like, oh my God, he's gonna die.
Like he's.
I, I didn't wanna sort of cut him off, but I also, almost more importantly,
didn't want to drag him out just because I can't let go, because
I'm like, you don't deserve that.
You don't deserve one day of suffering.
Just because I'm like a selfish human who can't let go, you know?
And I was actually with both dogs, really surprised how clear it was.
It's almost like, you know, like literally it, like for both in both cases, you know,
it was so now I have a whole different, like, okay, I'll know, like now I'm
kind of what the two I have now is like, I'll know when it's time because the
other two have communicated so clearly.
There was literally no doubt in the moment and that was always my biggest
fear to kind of like make them.
You know, hang in there for longer then.
Then it's fair.
Helen: Sometimes, sometimes, you know, and from doing, I mean, I'm on now,
uh, I think I have 450 euthanasia, uh, in the last three years.
So this is something, uh, I am present for letting dogs, senior dogs go at
least three or four times a week.
I did one this morning.
Um, and that is.
The, the, the biggest myth out there is that the dog will tell you, um,
and there are wonderful experiences where people will say, I will
absolutely know when it is time.
The hardest part though, is that when people, either the person like yourself
says, I know it's time, but the spouse or the family members are not ready for that.
Um.
Or when the animal really won't tell you.
So a, a great example of a personal dog, not even a a
one of the seniors was my dog.
Uh, Paddington had lupus.
And Lupus is a miserable, terrible disease, um,
especially for senior dogs and.
Paddington was really, really suffering.
But he would never, ever tell me he was ready to go because
he would never want to leave me.
So I had to really weigh the three most important things, which I look at, which
is function, physical function, his purpose being fulfilled, and then joy,
whether he was experiencing joy and.
Make the decision for him where it was like, I know that you're never going
to say you want to leave me because that's the kind of dog that you are.
I'm going to now tell you that I'm not gonna prolong your suffering to ease my
own when it is inevitable that at some point you're going to pass, I'm going
to make it as easy for you as possible.
And that's something that I think people have to become much more
comfortable with is proactively saying.
I'm going to let you go on the best last day rather than wait for you to tell me.
And there's no right or wrong.
There are definitely scenarios where you will say like, wow, I've, again, with
the oldies where I'll look at a dog and I'll say, absolutely, I know it's time.
And then there are others that will pull a rug out completely from under me and I
will say, oh my God, I waited too long.
Or I need to remind myself and, and all of that.
And so.
The whole point of the, that piece in the book is to give us those checks
and balances that are easier than a lot of quality of life workshop, uh,
worksheets that you'll find online are these like scores where you'll
be like one through five or this or that, and then you get a number at the
end of it, and the number tells you what the animal's quality of life is.
And that's really sticky to start to get into because you'll start fudging numbers
because you'll look down at the end and you'll be like, well, if I just put a four
here, then he's technically on that scale.
Um, and I hate that the spreadsheet, right?
Well, it's, it's like an Excel spreadsheet.
No, it's true.
And people will fudge it because they don't wanna see it.
And if you just lay it out for like, how is my dog moving, eating and sleeping?
How is my dog experiencing joy and how is my dog purpose like?
It makes it a lot easier to truly get yourself in check of what
you're seeing and us dog people have a much easier time with that.
Again, we have to remember that the general public that don't do this all
day, every day are gonna be able to do have that kind of check and balance.
Kathy: And, and a so often we hear, you know, if he wagged
his tail, he wagged his tail.
So he is not ready to go.
He's eating or he, he's eating, he's eating.
And so this is what, where Helen's purpose and joy situation really comes in.
So the, the, they, maybe they can move around kind of okay.
And they're eating and they're wagging their tail.
So yes, they still love you, but that tail wag was 30 seconds.
What about.
The other 23 hours and however many seconds that is, I don't do math.
Um, so, um, and so that's also
Helen: why I didn't like those checklists, because then I had to add it.
You have to add,
Kathy: you have to add.
We don't do that.
We, we just, you know, do a motion.
Um, so, uh, but the purpose.
Part and the joy part, and I love how Helen splits those.
Um, so the joy part would be, you know, cuddling with you, lying
in the sun, sniffing out, uh, in the yard, that kind of stuff.
The purpose thing is a little harder, I think, for some people to spot, but
it would be kind of like if you've got a terrier and they just love
to dig and look for stuff in your yard, you know, can they still dig?
Can they still get out in the yard and do that?
And if they can't, can you for a little while anyway, support that a little bit.
Like can you give them a pile of blankets to dig in to give them kind
of that feeling that their jeans are telling them they're a terrier and
they should be digging for stuff.
Can you hide something in a pile of blankets and have 'em dig
if they can no longer kind of navigate going outside or whatever.
But that's gonna be a short.
Term kind of thing.
And so you really want to be thinking about, you know,
is your dog's purpose more?
Is is it barking off the, um, squirrels on the
Helen: deck?
Yeah, the
Kathy: squirrels on the deck, stuff like that.
Like, so are they still able to do that or are you realizing they are just
lying on the kitchen floor and not even.
Uh, lifting up their head to see those squirrels.
You're gonna wanna not see it.
You're gonna wanna see, well, he ate the piece of bacon I
gave him, so it's not time.
And we are just encouraging you to look a little deeper and, um, make sure that, you
know, everyone's line is gonna be a little bit different about quality of life.
It's gonna be a little different, but we're just gonna encourage
you to think about that.
Ahead of time and loop in your family member we'd, you know,
talk to everybody beforehand.
Sometimes a big sticking point is, you know, the family dog has been around
forever, and then the kid goes to college and the dog is in total decline and
everybody wants to wait till Thanksgiving till the kid's home, and it's like.
Ooh, let's have that discussion so that, 'cause you're worried,
this will surprise Johnny.
He won't know.
Well, he should know because you should have that discussion the summer before
you got, as soon as your dog starts to just get into those senior years.
It's a great idea.
Before it's an emergency, before you're crying before.
Your checkbook is evolved.
It's time to talk about end of life.
This is part of life.
We shouldn't shy away from that.
And the more you talk about that, the better your decisions are gonna be.
Anke: Makes so much sense.
And it has like it has an air of peace around it.
When you don't kind of hide it and kind of trying to stuff your head in the, in
the sand to kind of avoid it, you know?
Helen: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's, and you can, and you can, no, yeah.
You, you're completely right is you what you have to understand when you talk
about death or you face death head on, just like we're talking about with the
puppies, it's like there's, you know.
You're not gonna feel good about the, like when I talk about pe to people, about
having discussions about making decisions for euthanasia, there's no way that you're
getting out of this feeling great, right?
Like, no one, right?
Like there's, there's just no way.
But there are ways to lessen regret and guilt.
Yes.
And.
W that doesn't, it's not involved with the grief.
The grief is coming no matter what, but you can lessen the
regret and the gr and the guilt.
And um, I always say to people like, I would much rather.
Have the grief come earlier than the grief come at the, at the time, no matter what.
I'm gonna feel that, but then go, oh my God.
I could have, should have, would've, why did I do, why did I wait?
Why did I let that happen?
Um, especially with the oldies, because.
You know, they don't deserve that at my own expense for my selfish reasons.
And it's hard.
I don't, I take on these old dogs knowing that whether they have 24 hours
or they have three months or a year, they're not going to be here forever.
So I just have to surrender to like whatever they.
Tell me they want or they need and go with it.
If it's not gonna feel good no matter what and you stay in,
Kathy: no, but you do stay in the moment and you have a lot of joy with
all these guys who may, well, who knows to today you have 14, who knows
who's gonna still be here tomorrow?
Yep.
Yep, a hundred percent.
We walk in that room.
There is, everyone is having a good day.
And that's just huge.
And this is what I sometimes see dog owners, this is really what's
at play when they are resisting euthanasia because they're replaying.
Wait a sec, wait a sec.
We didn't, we didn't go to the river, but, but we didn't, we do, we, we
haven't played with Bower in a long time.
Wait, wait.
And what I want everyone to lean into is, um, every day leave, lean into today.
What can you do with your dog today?
What can you do with your puppy and your adult dog and your senior dog
today so that when sadness approaches later, you are not filled with a bunch
of regret and, and trying to pack in to the last three days where your dog.
Feels terrible by the way, and does not anymore want to go to Stupid River, right?
The dog wanted to go to the Heavenly River a long time ago, so you
gotta, you know, enjoy your dog.
Like, enjoy them now.
Like, and, and I, I know, I just sound all you know.
I don't mean taking, you know, your entire day.
I mean, make sure that every morning, so every morning we have porch time,
so I have my coffee, it's like 15 to half minutes to half an hour.
Tom and I go on the porch.
We have our coffee, the four dogs, and often the cat are sitting there.
We all settle in.
They get to watch all that.
All the intruders who are, who are passing by, um, and uh, and we're all just
peacefully sitting there, they settle in.
That doesn't take a lot from me, but it is a fundamental part of
the pattern of our life together.
And when it is time to put someone.
When, when we start to approach somebody's senior hood, I'm gonna remind myself,
boy, they had that every morning and they loved that so much, and so I just would
encourage you to try to add, I mean, we have more than that too, but still add
stuff so that you aren't filled with that weird guilt and regret at the end.
When it is time to face your dog's death, don't make it harder on
yourself by not filling their days Now.
With lovely connection with lovely interspecies life in your home, meet their
needs, give 'em a chance to be a dog.
Hang out with them.
Do that stuff so that when you do come to the end, it is simpler, not easy.
Less complicated.
Helen: Yeah.
So you that's, that's my woods walks Kathy, like with the, yes.
And we take the oldies.
So we've just constructed a sanctuary, this old dog beach, which
is this place with the stream and it's got a bridge and everything.
And our goal is like we take them down there and for me it's like if
I take them down there and they have a great day, and then later on in
the day they crash and they pass.
On, they will have still had such a great, like, it, it, it's so huge.
What Kathy is saying is exactly right.
Yes, it's huge.
Anke: And you know what I'm hearing in all of this?
It's like, yet again, you know, dogs are just the best
teachers because all of that.
Wouldn't we also wanna apply that to our own lives?
Helen: Yes.
You know.
Hundred percent.
Yeah.
That that's what we, you know, you, if you work around death and life,
honestly a lot in, on the, in this aspect of life coming in and the, the
fragileness and the way that, you know, it's, so we, we look at like, oh, it's.
So, but life can be really, really fragile and very tumultuous in those early when
puppies are being born and all of that.
And then when you are working around death, you really are humbled that like
you can't take anything for granted.
Um, and I think that's what working with senior dogs has taught me.
And, um.
Definitely with, I'm the same way.
At least if, if something were to happen to me, I would've at least
gone on my woods, walk with my dogs and had my coffee on the porch.
That's how you wanna go.
Anke: You know
Helen: why you wanna live your own life every day.
I would've done something that has brought me purpose and joy.
Yeah.
Anke: Yeah.
Regret free living, right?
Yes.
So where can people go and get the book and find out more about the two of you?
Kathy: Go ahead Kathy.
So it's available wherever you like to buy your books.
Uh, it is available.
It's old dog, new dog.
Wait.
I always have to look to see what the subhead is.
Hang after old dog, new dog, supporting your aging friend and welcoming a new one.
So.
That's it.
Um, it's got darling little golden retrievers on the cover.
Um, anyway, it's available wherever you, um, find your books.
Um, you can find me, both of us have websites.
I have, mine is, um, puppy picks.com.
Um, I do, I have other books too.
Um, and I do, I do training, I do do Zooms for, you know,
wherever your, um, listeners are.
I do do, um, a lot of.
Emergency puppy zooms for people who are like, wait, wait.
I just, I, what did I do?
I ruined my life and I have a puppy.
So I do do a lot of zooms that, that are, uh, you know, aimed at helping people
to put, put one foot in front of the other after having gotten their puppy.
I'm usually, uh, that works pretty well.
Um, so that's me.
Helen: And then I am, um, there's two ways to find me.
If you're interested in the sanctuary work.
It's old dogs.
Go to helen.com
and there's a learning center there, which, um, where I teach a, a
course called The Good Death, which is talking about implementing and
how to measure function, purpose, and joy with our senior dogs.
And really looking at that, um, from a more broad, broad perspective.
Um, and then if you're interested in, uh, my.
End of life consults or anything like that.
My, my, uh, or training is no monkey business dog training.com.
The book, the link for the book is also on my training website.
It's not on the Sanctuary website because it's just.
That's messy.
Um, but yeah, no monkey business dog training and old dogs.
Go to Helen and you can follow both on Facebook and see lots of
toothless, geriatric, stinky bald dogs.
I recommend
Kathy: you do that.
Yes.
It's very funny.
You should recommend it.
Very therapeutic.
Helen: Yes.
Anke: Well, thank you so much for like unpacking this really.
And beautiful topic and thanks for putting your wisdom into the book so
other people can get a glimpse of it.
Uh, they don't have the luxury of meeting you on Zoom,
Kathy: so thank you.
Well, thanks.
Thank you so much for having us.
We appreciate it.
Thanks so much for listening.
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