1 00:00:00,070 --> 00:00:02,120 At the end of the day, 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,139 finding the most value for the work that you're doing, 3 00:00:05,139 --> 00:00:07,059 you have to be an entrepreneur. 4 00:00:07,059 --> 00:00:07,710 It's like, 5 00:00:07,710 --> 00:00:08,300 you know, 6 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:08,960 high risk, 7 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:09,740 high reward, 8 00:00:09,740 --> 00:00:10,359 right? 9 00:00:10,359 --> 00:00:10,779 Like, 10 00:00:10,779 --> 00:00:11,410 you know, 11 00:00:11,410 --> 00:00:16,960 the odds of you getting absolutely no value for all the work that you did is actually quite high. 12 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:17,780 At the same time, 13 00:00:17,780 --> 00:00:18,629 if it works out, 14 00:00:18,629 --> 00:00:19,320 then you're gonna be, 15 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:19,600 you know, 16 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,460 you're gonna earn significantly more than you could have as an employee somewhere. 17 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:24,890 If you're taking money from somebody, 18 00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:25,660 like some people, 19 00:00:25,660 --> 00:00:27,359 people compare it to a marriage. 20 00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:27,969 In theory, 21 00:00:27,969 --> 00:00:29,239 I could leave my wife. 22 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:29,609 Like, 23 00:00:29,609 --> 00:00:31,559 I can't leave the investor's wife. 24 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:33,759 It's much more legally binding than a marriage. 25 00:00:42,469 --> 00:00:47,990 I've known Chris since the very start of my own entrepreneurial journey back in 2020. 26 00:00:47,990 --> 00:00:48,750 Back then, 27 00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:50,929 SwiftSKU was hardly more than an idea, 28 00:00:50,929 --> 00:00:58,469 and Yellow Card was still a tiny startup with the founders working out of their apartment with the walls covered in sticky notes. 29 00:00:58,469 --> 00:01:01,730 Chris has been a wonderful mentor to me and my co-founder, 30 00:01:01,730 --> 00:01:09,510 and I hope that bringing him onto the podcast will let some of his wisdom out into the world for young entrepreneurs everywhere to learn from. 31 00:01:09,510 --> 00:01:13,350 He's taken an unconventional approach to company building, 32 00:01:13,349 --> 00:01:14,629 and if nothing else, 33 00:01:14,629 --> 00:01:21,719 I'd like to share his unique story to show that there might be more ways to make it big that we might think. 34 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:22,930 To start us off, 35 00:01:22,930 --> 00:01:23,650 Chris, 36 00:01:23,650 --> 00:01:27,830 could you tell us the Taco Bell story for the millionth time? 37 00:01:27,829 --> 00:01:28,799 Sure, 38 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:29,780 yeah, 39 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:31,439 happy to. 40 00:01:31,439 --> 00:01:32,219 Well, 41 00:01:32,219 --> 00:01:34,060 good to be here, 42 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:34,859 sir. 43 00:01:34,859 --> 00:01:38,150 Thank you for having me on. 44 00:01:38,150 --> 00:01:39,820 The Taco Bell story, 45 00:01:39,819 --> 00:01:40,549 man. 46 00:01:40,549 --> 00:01:41,950 So I think... 47 00:01:41,950 --> 00:01:42,950 It's famous. 48 00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:46,269 It's famous at this point. 49 00:01:46,269 --> 00:01:46,780 So I think, 50 00:01:46,780 --> 00:01:47,140 I mean, 51 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:47,980 in order... 52 00:01:47,980 --> 00:01:50,709 I gotta give some background in order to get to Taco Bell. 53 00:01:50,709 --> 00:01:51,469 Sure, 54 00:01:51,469 --> 00:01:52,750 let's hear it. 55 00:01:52,750 --> 00:01:54,000 So basically, 56 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:54,700 I mean, 57 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:55,519 you know, 58 00:01:55,519 --> 00:02:00,790 the entrepreneurial journey for this company started back in, 59 00:02:00,790 --> 00:02:01,549 I mean, 60 00:02:01,549 --> 00:02:02,810 essentially, 61 00:02:02,810 --> 00:02:04,329 2013. 62 00:02:04,329 --> 00:02:08,759 So that's when I first got into Bitcoin and crypto. 63 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,339 So my now co-founder at the time was the guy that, 64 00:02:12,340 --> 00:02:12,990 you know, 65 00:02:12,990 --> 00:02:13,780 got me in, 66 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:14,469 right? 67 00:02:14,469 --> 00:02:15,099 And so, 68 00:02:15,099 --> 00:02:15,550 you know, 69 00:02:15,550 --> 00:02:16,310 Justin is, 70 00:02:16,310 --> 00:02:16,759 I mean, 71 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:17,500 6'7", 72 00:02:17,500 --> 00:02:18,319 very sweaty, 73 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:19,459 and just would be, 74 00:02:19,459 --> 00:02:20,060 I mean, 75 00:02:20,060 --> 00:02:25,370 at college parties evangelizing the gospel of Bitcoin. 76 00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:26,409 And so got me in, 77 00:02:26,409 --> 00:02:27,379 you know, 78 00:02:27,379 --> 00:02:29,150 quite early into the space. 79 00:02:29,150 --> 00:02:30,610 And then by 2015, 80 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:32,900 we were fully down the rabbit hole. 81 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:33,530 And, 82 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:34,560 you know, 83 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,670 we sort of... 84 00:02:35,670 --> 00:02:44,590 The way that we got started was I saw Bitcoin being sold on eBay for about 150% markup, 85 00:02:44,590 --> 00:02:45,590 right? 86 00:02:45,590 --> 00:02:47,530 Bitcoin at the time was like $150, 87 00:02:47,530 --> 00:02:48,310 $100. 88 00:02:48,310 --> 00:02:51,800 People were selling it for $300+ on eBay. 89 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,360 And I sent the link to Justin and I said, 90 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:53,819 you know, 91 00:02:53,819 --> 00:02:54,120 "Man, 92 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,229 I know how to do eBay. 93 00:02:55,229 --> 00:02:56,560 You know how to do Bitcoin. 94 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,560 Let's make some freaking money". And so we listed Bitcoin on eBay. 95 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,379 And within the first week, 96 00:03:04,379 --> 00:03:05,729 we did $40, 97 00:03:05,509 --> 00:03:07,909 000 in sales, 98 00:03:07,909 --> 00:03:08,430 right? 99 00:03:08,430 --> 00:03:10,509 At 100% margin. 100 00:03:10,509 --> 00:03:10,969 So this is, 101 00:03:10,969 --> 00:03:11,389 you know, 102 00:03:11,389 --> 00:03:13,020 more money than I've ever seen in my life, 103 00:03:13,020 --> 00:03:13,469 right? 104 00:03:13,469 --> 00:03:14,419 I'm going to call my mom, 105 00:03:14,419 --> 00:03:15,949 tell her I'm dropping out of school. 106 00:03:15,949 --> 00:03:19,469 I'm going to sell magic internet money for the rest of my life. 107 00:03:19,469 --> 00:03:22,750 And that's when I learned what a credit card chargeback is. 108 00:03:22,750 --> 00:03:23,750 Hard way. 109 00:03:23,750 --> 00:03:34,430 So what we thought was like the best business of all time was actually just a bunch of dudes in Russia and India that were running cards that they stole. 110 00:03:34,430 --> 00:03:34,759 And then, 111 00:03:34,759 --> 00:03:35,139 you know, 112 00:03:35,139 --> 00:03:38,430 taking the Bitcoin and then the owner of the card would charge it back. 113 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:40,229 So yeah, 114 00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:43,629 so that sucked. 115 00:03:43,629 --> 00:03:47,590 Not a great experience. 116 00:03:47,590 --> 00:03:48,400 And after that, 117 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:48,900 you know, 118 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:51,699 through some combination of insanity and intuition, 119 00:03:51,699 --> 00:03:52,340 decided, 120 00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:52,830 you know, 121 00:03:52,830 --> 00:03:53,199 "Hey, 122 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:53,759 you know, 123 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:55,319 we still love the space. 124 00:03:55,319 --> 00:04:00,129 We want to do something in the space". And so we put our collective brains together and we said, 125 00:04:00,129 --> 00:04:04,330 "We're going to accept the only irreversible payment method known to man, 126 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:05,180 which is cold, 127 00:04:05,180 --> 00:04:09,150 hard cash". And so we started putting out ads that basically said, 128 00:04:09,150 --> 00:04:09,370 "Hey, 129 00:04:09,370 --> 00:04:10,090 we have Bitcoin. 130 00:04:10,090 --> 00:04:10,360 Come, 131 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:10,759 you know, 132 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:17,590 meet up with us and give us cash and we'll give you the Bitcoin". And people started responding to these ads. 133 00:04:17,590 --> 00:04:22,020 And so we did the only thing that two reasonable college students in our position would do, 134 00:04:22,019 --> 00:04:23,139 which is every Wednesday, 135 00:04:23,139 --> 00:04:26,210 you could come to the Taco Bell on Gay Street in Auburn, 136 00:04:26,210 --> 00:04:27,030 Alabama. 137 00:04:27,029 --> 00:04:30,091 You could find Justin and I eating our Doritos Locos Taco 138 00:04:30,091 --> 00:04:33,048 12 pack and you'd slap a couple hundred dollars cash on 139 00:04:33,048 --> 00:04:36,110 the table and we'd scan your QR code and give you Bitcoin. 140 00:04:36,110 --> 00:04:37,199 And I will say though, 141 00:04:37,199 --> 00:04:39,460 this operation worked perfectly at Taco Bell, 142 00:04:39,460 --> 00:04:39,930 right? 143 00:04:39,930 --> 00:04:44,590 Like this would have never worked at a Chick-fil-A. 144 00:04:44,590 --> 00:04:47,790 This was meant for Taco Bell. 145 00:04:47,789 --> 00:04:48,179 And so, 146 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:48,519 yeah, 147 00:04:48,519 --> 00:04:50,599 basically we started doing that. 148 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:51,730 We did that for, 149 00:04:51,730 --> 00:04:52,220 what, 150 00:04:52,220 --> 00:04:53,629 about two weeks. 151 00:04:53,629 --> 00:04:54,490 And then we were like, 152 00:04:54,490 --> 00:04:54,750 "Well, 153 00:04:54,750 --> 00:04:55,000 shit, 154 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,680 this is working". So we start calling up friends at LSU, 155 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:59,259 Yale, 156 00:04:59,259 --> 00:05:00,060 Georgia, 157 00:05:00,060 --> 00:05:00,949 Alabama, 158 00:05:00,949 --> 00:05:03,389 anywhere that we knew somebody from high school. 159 00:05:03,389 --> 00:05:07,230 And within about three weeks, 160 00:05:07,230 --> 00:05:10,500 we had seven Taco Bells on the Eastern United States, 161 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:14,269 all within college campuses where you could walk in and buy Bitcoin. 162 00:05:14,269 --> 00:05:15,029 And so, 163 00:05:15,029 --> 00:05:23,029 we did that for about two and a half months before deciding that this is way too sketchy and unscalable. 164 00:05:23,029 --> 00:05:25,819 And sort of birthed the idea, 165 00:05:25,819 --> 00:05:29,709 the original idea of Yellow Card out of, 166 00:05:29,709 --> 00:05:30,480 "Well, 167 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:37,129 how do you turn this into something that's actually scalable?" That's a great story. 168 00:05:37,129 --> 00:05:37,649 I love it. 169 00:05:37,649 --> 00:05:39,410 It gets more interesting every time. 170 00:05:39,410 --> 00:05:41,540 Every time I get to hear a different part. 171 00:05:41,540 --> 00:05:44,509 I didn't know about how sweaty Justin was pushing Bitcoin. 172 00:05:44,509 --> 00:05:45,509 He's very sweaty. 173 00:05:45,509 --> 00:05:47,180 He's a sweaty guy, 174 00:05:47,180 --> 00:05:47,870 dude. 175 00:05:47,870 --> 00:05:48,209 Oh, 176 00:05:48,209 --> 00:05:48,730 man. 177 00:05:48,730 --> 00:05:52,189 I bet he's gonna love hearing all about that. 178 00:05:52,189 --> 00:05:53,550 Yeah. 179 00:05:53,550 --> 00:05:57,310 He calls me short and I call him sweaty. 180 00:05:57,310 --> 00:06:00,550 That's the trade-off. 181 00:06:00,550 --> 00:06:04,269 I am 6'5" for anybody watching. 182 00:06:04,269 --> 00:06:06,720 And if you meet Justin before you meet me, 183 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,389 he'll tell you that I'm like five foot two. 184 00:06:09,389 --> 00:06:11,759 I can't tell you how many people I've met that have just been like, 185 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:12,060 "Wow, 186 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:20,939 you're a lot taller than Justin said you are". Were there any situations that made you feel really sketchy at the beginning, 187 00:06:20,939 --> 00:06:23,910 doing things that don't scale in hindsight? 188 00:06:23,910 --> 00:06:26,730 Were there anything that happened that was like, 189 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:27,310 "Oh man, 190 00:06:27,310 --> 00:06:31,470 I might lose my life for this Bitcoin right now". Were you ever threatened? 191 00:06:31,470 --> 00:06:36,089 Did anything bad happen to you or any of the people involved in it when it was cold, 192 00:06:36,089 --> 00:06:37,670 hard cash at first? 193 00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:38,420 No, 194 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:38,810 no. 195 00:06:38,810 --> 00:06:39,660 I mean, 196 00:06:39,660 --> 00:06:44,519 we were going through a legitimate website, 197 00:06:44,519 --> 00:06:45,509 right? 198 00:06:45,509 --> 00:06:46,170 I mean, 199 00:06:46,170 --> 00:06:49,589 there was certain verification and everything that you had to do. 200 00:06:49,589 --> 00:06:50,009 So it's not, 201 00:06:50,009 --> 00:06:50,290 I mean, 202 00:06:50,290 --> 00:06:53,610 we were not dealing with random people on Craigslist or something, 203 00:06:53,610 --> 00:06:54,189 right? 204 00:06:54,189 --> 00:06:57,100 So it wasn't, 205 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:01,709 we weren't that cowboy. 206 00:07:01,709 --> 00:07:03,240 That being said though, 207 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:03,720 I mean, 208 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,470 in terms of losing Bitcoin, 209 00:07:05,470 --> 00:07:05,939 I mean, 210 00:07:05,939 --> 00:07:15,240 the amount of money in hindsight that we lost in the early days through either stupidity or actually mostly stupidity, 211 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:15,850 yeah, 212 00:07:15,850 --> 00:07:17,279 is pretty wild, 213 00:07:17,279 --> 00:07:18,189 right? 214 00:07:18,189 --> 00:07:18,990 I mean, 215 00:07:18,990 --> 00:07:21,529 we have a CPU that popped, 216 00:07:21,529 --> 00:07:22,509 right? 217 00:07:22,509 --> 00:07:23,350 I mean, 218 00:07:23,350 --> 00:07:24,670 just the computer, 219 00:07:24,670 --> 00:07:26,649 we were mining Ethereum, 220 00:07:26,649 --> 00:07:33,829 the rig caught on fire and like with 300 Ethereum completely unbacked up on it. 221 00:07:33,829 --> 00:07:34,829 No. 222 00:07:34,829 --> 00:07:42,029 We had a hot wallet that we were using and we didn't put 2FA on it because we were like, 223 00:07:42,029 --> 00:07:42,329 "Oh, 224 00:07:42,329 --> 00:07:45,100 we don't need 2FA because both of us are logging in. 225 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:46,389 So like if we have 2FA, 226 00:07:46,389 --> 00:07:51,439 it's going to be an issue". And long story short, 227 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:52,819 somebody else got in, 228 00:07:52,819 --> 00:07:55,750 stole 21.8 Bitcoin from us. 229 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:59,519 That one sucked. 230 00:07:59,519 --> 00:08:01,600 And so sometimes every once in a while, 231 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,350 you do the math on like some of the, 232 00:08:03,350 --> 00:08:03,790 I mean, 233 00:08:03,790 --> 00:08:04,610 look in the early days, 234 00:08:04,610 --> 00:08:04,970 I mean, 235 00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:10,110 I can't tell you how many times I would lose like a lot of doge or this or that, 236 00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:11,100 right? 237 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:11,660 I mean, 238 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:13,910 with crypto and everything, 239 00:08:13,910 --> 00:08:15,670 like none of it mattered. 240 00:08:15,670 --> 00:08:17,629 None of it was worth anything. 241 00:08:17,629 --> 00:08:18,569 And like, 242 00:08:18,569 --> 00:08:19,199 yeah, 243 00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:20,779 in hindsight, 244 00:08:20,779 --> 00:08:23,689 it's one of those things where sometimes you do the math and it's like, 245 00:08:23,689 --> 00:08:23,920 "Oh, 246 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:24,189 wow. 247 00:08:24,189 --> 00:08:28,319 I'd sure like to have 21.8 Bitcoin right now. 248 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:31,360 Like that'd be sick if I had an extra 21 Bitcoin". Yeah, 249 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:31,790 yeah. 250 00:08:31,790 --> 00:08:32,620 That'd be great. 251 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:34,470 I don't think it would hurt anybody. 252 00:08:34,470 --> 00:08:35,470 No. 253 00:08:35,470 --> 00:08:40,940 I know you'd mentioned that you were selling them on eBay at first. 254 00:08:40,940 --> 00:08:43,519 I also was like looking and I was like, 255 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:45,480 I think we talked about this before, 256 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,029 but I saw this on your LinkedIn and was like blown away. 257 00:08:49,029 --> 00:08:55,110 You have like selling Pokemon cards on eBay for like nine years before Yellow Card. 258 00:08:55,110 --> 00:08:57,450 I know a bunch of different founders who, 259 00:08:57,450 --> 00:08:58,529 myself included, 260 00:08:58,529 --> 00:09:07,350 who sold things on eBay in their teen years to like make a buck and start off their entrepreneurial journey that way. 261 00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:12,110 We'd love to hear how you got into it and the story behind that. 262 00:09:12,110 --> 00:09:12,850 Yeah. 263 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:12,980 Well, 264 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:13,440 I mean, 265 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:13,840 look, 266 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:19,740 I got into it the way that probably anybody else that's selling Pokemon cards on the internet gets into it, 267 00:09:19,740 --> 00:09:22,110 which is you are collecting and then you say, 268 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:22,419 "Hey, 269 00:09:22,419 --> 00:09:22,840 mom, 270 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,559 can you buy me this?" And then she says, 271 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:26,080 "No, 272 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,450 obviously not". And then it's like, 273 00:09:28,450 --> 00:09:28,909 "Oh shit, 274 00:09:28,909 --> 00:09:31,789 I guess I got to figure out how to make money now". So, 275 00:09:31,789 --> 00:09:33,149 I mean, 276 00:09:33,149 --> 00:09:37,110 we got into it the old fashioned way. 277 00:09:37,110 --> 00:09:38,889 I will say though, 278 00:09:38,889 --> 00:09:39,889 man, 279 00:09:39,889 --> 00:09:46,240 that is one that I was 10 years too early on. 280 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,769 For anybody that does not track it, 281 00:09:48,769 --> 00:09:50,259 over the last three years, 282 00:09:50,259 --> 00:09:56,870 Pokemon has outperformed Bitcoin and everybody knows what Bitcoin has done over the past three years. 283 00:09:56,870 --> 00:10:02,220 So you can imagine that market for cards has just, 284 00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:03,110 I mean, 285 00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:06,549 gone absolutely ballistic. 286 00:10:06,549 --> 00:10:07,909 The investments, 287 00:10:07,909 --> 00:10:11,250 because I do still invest in Pokemon, 288 00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:15,589 the investments that I've made in sealed products and things 289 00:10:15,589 --> 00:10:19,502 like that on Pokemon have outperformed by Bitcoin over 290 00:10:19,502 --> 00:10:23,059 the course of pretty much the same amount of time. 291 00:10:23,059 --> 00:10:26,070 That market has thousand X over the past 10 years. 292 00:10:26,070 --> 00:10:30,629 It's wild how popular it's gotten. 293 00:10:30,629 --> 00:10:32,580 When I was doing this, 294 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:39,559 obviously there were people doing it and there were a number of sellers and you had shops and you had all that, 295 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,470 but you didn't have that many. 296 00:10:41,470 --> 00:10:42,110 And now, 297 00:10:42,110 --> 00:10:42,669 I mean, 298 00:10:42,669 --> 00:10:44,600 there is a full market now, 299 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,750 man. 300 00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:47,929 I mean, 301 00:10:47,929 --> 00:10:57,200 you have like Whatnot and all these other companies that have popped up that have billion dollar valuations just doing Pokemon. 302 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:57,629 I mean, 303 00:10:57,629 --> 00:10:59,549 Whatnot is for cards in general, 304 00:10:59,549 --> 00:11:01,690 but it's Pokemon in practice, 305 00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:02,440 right? 306 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:03,440 And yeah, 307 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:04,659 it's crazy, 308 00:11:04,659 --> 00:11:05,399 man. 309 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:11,549 That ecosystem has developed in such a wild way over the past several years. 310 00:11:11,549 --> 00:11:12,870 You heard it here first, 311 00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:13,379 folks. 312 00:11:13,379 --> 00:11:17,269 Take all your money out of Yellowcard and put it all in Pokemon. 313 00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:18,419 Put it in Pokemon, 314 00:11:18,419 --> 00:11:18,919 dude. 315 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:20,720 Just go buy sealed products, 316 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:21,230 man. 317 00:11:21,230 --> 00:11:22,340 It's so funny. 318 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:23,470 That's crazy. 319 00:11:23,470 --> 00:11:23,919 Well, 320 00:11:23,919 --> 00:11:29,490 it might be a good time to maybe share just a little bit about what it is that Yellowcard does, 321 00:11:29,490 --> 00:11:32,990 like why you decided to start Yellowcard back in the day, 322 00:11:32,990 --> 00:11:36,470 what compelled you to become a founder and become an entrepreneur? 323 00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:39,990 What do you think it is within you that led to that start? 324 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:41,990 I think I'm just fundamentally broken. 325 00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:46,389 I don't know why anybody else starts a company. 326 00:11:46,389 --> 00:11:47,350 No, 327 00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:48,029 I mean, 328 00:11:48,029 --> 00:11:48,629 I think, 329 00:11:48,629 --> 00:11:49,419 you know, 330 00:11:49,419 --> 00:11:50,019 look, 331 00:11:50,019 --> 00:11:52,730 it's something that from a young age, 332 00:11:52,730 --> 00:11:55,090 I knew that I wanted to do, 333 00:11:55,090 --> 00:11:56,149 right? 334 00:11:56,149 --> 00:11:58,100 Not Yellowcard specifically, 335 00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:58,460 but, 336 00:11:58,460 --> 00:11:59,110 you know, 337 00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:59,539 like, 338 00:11:59,539 --> 00:12:03,720 sort of the entrepreneurial journey and all of that. 339 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:04,110 And so, 340 00:12:04,110 --> 00:12:04,669 you know, 341 00:12:04,669 --> 00:12:05,610 from a young age, 342 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:06,169 you know, 343 00:12:06,169 --> 00:12:06,539 I was, 344 00:12:06,539 --> 00:12:07,110 I mean, 345 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:07,470 again, 346 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:07,870 I mean, 347 00:12:07,870 --> 00:12:08,289 like the, 348 00:12:08,289 --> 00:12:08,750 you know, 349 00:12:08,750 --> 00:12:10,789 Pokemon and everything that started in what, 350 00:12:10,789 --> 00:12:11,909 fifth grade, 351 00:12:11,909 --> 00:12:12,149 right? 352 00:12:12,149 --> 00:12:12,409 So, 353 00:12:12,409 --> 00:12:12,860 I mean, 354 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:13,440 you know, 355 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,549 it's just it's something that I've always had in me. 356 00:12:16,549 --> 00:12:24,529 I've always been sort of a self starter, 357 00:12:24,529 --> 00:12:26,639 you know, 358 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:28,200 able to, 359 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:28,330 able to, 360 00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:28,500 you know, 361 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:30,200 work and like accomplish goals, 362 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:30,850 set goals, 363 00:12:30,850 --> 00:12:33,179 accomplish goals sort of on my own. 364 00:12:33,179 --> 00:12:37,740 I think all of that is pretty critical. 365 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:41,529 And the idea of working for somebody else disgusts me. 366 00:12:41,529 --> 00:12:42,700 And so, 367 00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:43,950 you know, 368 00:12:43,950 --> 00:12:46,669 combination of all of that. 369 00:12:46,669 --> 00:12:47,190 Yeah, 370 00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:47,879 I think, 371 00:12:47,879 --> 00:12:48,659 you know, 372 00:12:48,659 --> 00:12:49,350 that's, 373 00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:50,039 I mean, 374 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:51,429 that's really what led to it, 375 00:12:51,429 --> 00:12:51,809 right? 376 00:12:51,809 --> 00:12:52,240 I think I, 377 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:52,690 you know, 378 00:12:52,690 --> 00:12:53,590 the way that I see it, 379 00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:56,549 I'm far better at being an entrepreneur than I would be at being an employee. 380 00:12:56,549 --> 00:12:58,230 I feel like I'd be a very bad employee. 381 00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:58,940 Because, 382 00:12:58,940 --> 00:12:59,049 like, 383 00:12:59,049 --> 00:12:59,480 I think, 384 00:12:59,480 --> 00:12:59,809 like, 385 00:12:59,809 --> 00:13:00,940 if I was working for you, 386 00:13:00,940 --> 00:13:01,809 and you were like, 387 00:13:01,809 --> 00:13:02,029 oh, 388 00:13:02,029 --> 00:13:02,299 hey, 389 00:13:02,299 --> 00:13:03,059 go do this, 390 00:13:03,059 --> 00:13:04,360 I would just be like, 391 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:04,639 no, 392 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:05,580 that's dumb. 393 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:06,299 I'm gonna, 394 00:13:06,299 --> 00:13:06,730 like, 395 00:13:06,730 --> 00:13:08,710 do this other thing. 396 00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:09,230 Like, 397 00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:09,629 yeah, 398 00:13:09,629 --> 00:13:10,419 and so I mean, 399 00:13:10,419 --> 00:13:11,019 you know, 400 00:13:11,019 --> 00:13:12,490 it's one of those things, 401 00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:14,429 it's just always been there. 402 00:13:14,429 --> 00:13:17,190 It's always been in me. 403 00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:18,070 Tried a number of things, 404 00:13:18,070 --> 00:13:18,389 right? 405 00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:19,389 I was doing a number of things. 406 00:13:19,389 --> 00:13:20,090 I mean, 407 00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:20,509 you know, 408 00:13:20,509 --> 00:13:22,470 Pokemon was the one that worked, 409 00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:23,029 right. 410 00:13:23,029 --> 00:13:23,450 But I, 411 00:13:23,450 --> 00:13:24,080 you know, 412 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,440 I did a number of other things. 413 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,259 I did a lot of writing. 414 00:13:28,259 --> 00:13:29,100 I did a lot of SEO, 415 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:29,769 especially, 416 00:13:29,769 --> 00:13:30,149 I mean, 417 00:13:30,149 --> 00:13:30,470 like, 418 00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:33,539 at the time when people were actually starting to care about that. 419 00:13:33,539 --> 00:13:34,000 Obviously, 420 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,730 the beauty of the internet is you don't have to, 421 00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:36,110 you know, 422 00:13:36,110 --> 00:13:37,129 tell anybody how old you are, 423 00:13:37,129 --> 00:13:37,590 right? 424 00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:40,039 So you can be like 15 writing articles for, 425 00:13:40,039 --> 00:13:40,659 you know, 426 00:13:40,659 --> 00:13:41,809 ghostwriting for CNN, 427 00:13:41,809 --> 00:13:45,549 and nobody's IDing you. 428 00:13:45,549 --> 00:13:46,149 And so yeah, 429 00:13:46,149 --> 00:13:46,659 I was doing, 430 00:13:46,659 --> 00:13:48,139 I was doing a lot of ghostwriting, 431 00:13:48,139 --> 00:13:49,509 a lot of like SEO, 432 00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:50,490 stuff like that, 433 00:13:50,490 --> 00:13:52,070 like optimization, 434 00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:52,509 SEO, 435 00:13:52,509 --> 00:13:53,730 writing blogs, 436 00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:54,899 all that. 437 00:13:54,899 --> 00:13:55,139 Obviously, 438 00:13:55,139 --> 00:13:56,659 this was before chat GPT, 439 00:13:56,659 --> 00:13:57,240 right, 440 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:57,820 where, 441 00:13:57,820 --> 00:13:58,559 you know, 442 00:13:58,559 --> 00:13:58,970 now, 443 00:13:58,970 --> 00:13:59,710 you know, 444 00:13:59,710 --> 00:14:02,750 now nobody needs me to generate slop, 445 00:14:02,750 --> 00:14:03,269 right. 446 00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:04,110 But yeah, 447 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:04,840 I think, 448 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:05,480 I mean, 449 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:06,029 that, 450 00:14:06,029 --> 00:14:06,669 for me, 451 00:14:06,669 --> 00:14:07,460 that was, 452 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:09,789 that was really the start, 453 00:14:09,789 --> 00:14:10,250 right. 454 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:11,159 And it was always, 455 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:12,250 it was always around, 456 00:14:12,250 --> 00:14:12,590 like, 457 00:14:12,590 --> 00:14:15,490 how do I make enough money that I don't need to go get a job, 458 00:14:15,490 --> 00:14:16,000 right? 459 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:16,840 I don't want to go like, 460 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,669 I don't want to go work at like Walmart, 461 00:14:18,669 --> 00:14:19,029 you know, 462 00:14:19,029 --> 00:14:19,480 like, 463 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:20,889 checking people out or like, 464 00:14:20,889 --> 00:14:23,509 go bus tables or anything like that. 465 00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:27,190 I will find a different way to be able to support myself. 466 00:14:27,190 --> 00:14:27,789 And then, 467 00:14:27,789 --> 00:14:28,190 yeah, 468 00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:28,649 I mean, 469 00:14:28,649 --> 00:14:30,000 yellow card is, 470 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,059 you know, 471 00:14:31,059 --> 00:14:32,830 sort of the first, 472 00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:36,110 how do you say adult company that, 473 00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:37,629 you know, 474 00:14:37,629 --> 00:14:38,750 yeah. 475 00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:40,350 I feel the same way about SwiftSKU. 476 00:14:40,350 --> 00:14:41,950 Like there was like a number of startups, 477 00:14:41,950 --> 00:14:43,679 some that even brought like real money, 478 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:46,049 but like SwiftSKU is like the first one where I'm like, 479 00:14:46,049 --> 00:14:46,620 to the moon, 480 00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:47,090 you know, 481 00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:48,549 like really giving it my all. 482 00:14:48,549 --> 00:14:48,980 So it's, 483 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:49,269 that's, 484 00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:52,830 that's what I refer to as my first real company as an adult company. 485 00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:53,379 Yeah, 486 00:14:53,379 --> 00:14:54,379 adult company, 487 00:14:54,379 --> 00:14:55,590 grown up stuff. 488 00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:56,429 Yeah. 489 00:14:56,429 --> 00:14:59,120 Is writing instrumental in your success with yellow card? 490 00:14:59,120 --> 00:14:59,500 Like, 491 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,389 was that helpful at the very beginning? 492 00:15:02,389 --> 00:15:03,110 I think, 493 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:03,740 I mean, 494 00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:05,090 I am biased here, 495 00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:20,299 but I think that writing is one of the most fundamentally important skills that like you as a human can develop to be successful in life. 496 00:15:20,299 --> 00:15:23,470 And I think that like writing, 497 00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:29,399 like being really good at writing plays into so much else, 498 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:30,299 right? 499 00:15:30,299 --> 00:15:30,779 Writing is, 500 00:15:30,779 --> 00:15:31,139 is it's, 501 00:15:31,139 --> 00:15:32,169 it's more than just like, 502 00:15:32,169 --> 00:15:32,590 you know, 503 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:34,029 putting words on paper, 504 00:15:34,029 --> 00:15:34,269 right? 505 00:15:34,269 --> 00:15:34,740 It's, 506 00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:35,220 I mean, 507 00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:36,509 it is storytelling. 508 00:15:36,509 --> 00:15:37,629 It is critical thinking. 509 00:15:37,629 --> 00:15:40,190 It is crafting a narrative. 510 00:15:40,190 --> 00:15:40,450 It is, 511 00:15:40,450 --> 00:15:40,860 you know, 512 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:41,750 all of these things. 513 00:15:41,750 --> 00:15:42,669 Right. 514 00:15:42,669 --> 00:15:43,700 And a lot of that, 515 00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:44,070 like, 516 00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:44,750 you know, 517 00:15:44,750 --> 00:15:45,110 look, 518 00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:48,230 there's a reason that in the U S most politicians are lawyers, 519 00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:48,710 right. 520 00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:50,279 And have like law backgrounds, 521 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:52,480 because when you're going through law school, 522 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,409 all you do is write, 523 00:15:53,409 --> 00:15:53,909 write, 524 00:15:53,909 --> 00:15:54,259 write, 525 00:15:54,259 --> 00:15:54,669 write, 526 00:15:54,669 --> 00:15:54,990 write, 527 00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:55,440 write, 528 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:55,710 write, 529 00:15:55,710 --> 00:15:56,779 you're writing papers, 530 00:15:56,779 --> 00:15:57,539 you're writing, 531 00:15:57,539 --> 00:15:58,070 you know, 532 00:15:58,070 --> 00:15:58,779 arguments, 533 00:15:58,779 --> 00:15:59,600 you're writing this, 534 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:00,740 you're writing that. 535 00:16:00,740 --> 00:16:03,760 And like getting really good at writing is what helps you 536 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,676 like that more than anything is what helps you when you 537 00:16:06,676 --> 00:16:09,539 think about it from like an entrepreneurial standpoint, 538 00:16:09,539 --> 00:16:10,669 that's how you craft a pitch. 539 00:16:10,669 --> 00:16:12,960 You are writing when you are crafting a pitch, 540 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,149 when you are presenting your company, 541 00:16:15,149 --> 00:16:16,120 you are writing, 542 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:16,750 right. 543 00:16:16,750 --> 00:16:17,440 When you are, 544 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:17,809 you know, 545 00:16:17,809 --> 00:16:18,370 selling, 546 00:16:18,370 --> 00:16:19,309 you are writing, 547 00:16:19,309 --> 00:16:19,870 right. 548 00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:22,470 Like there's like for all this stuff, 549 00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:24,149 you are taking a central beam, 550 00:16:24,149 --> 00:16:25,389 which is the company, 551 00:16:25,389 --> 00:16:29,159 and then you are crafting the narrative depending on the audience, 552 00:16:29,159 --> 00:16:29,710 right? 553 00:16:29,710 --> 00:16:30,700 So if it's an investor, 554 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:30,889 then, 555 00:16:30,889 --> 00:16:31,350 you know, 556 00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:35,210 we're going to talk more about growth and we're going to talk about revenue and we're going to talk about, 557 00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:35,750 you know, 558 00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:36,629 this and that. 559 00:16:36,629 --> 00:16:40,549 If it's a customer that we're going to talk more about like the technology, 560 00:16:40,549 --> 00:16:41,210 the features, 561 00:16:41,210 --> 00:16:41,960 the ease of use, 562 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:42,360 you know, 563 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:42,659 how, 564 00:16:42,659 --> 00:16:43,059 you know, 565 00:16:43,059 --> 00:16:44,509 inexpensive it is and, 566 00:16:44,509 --> 00:16:45,279 you know, 567 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:47,269 comparisons and all that. 568 00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:47,940 Yeah, 569 00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:48,600 it's, 570 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:49,830 I mean, 571 00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:50,840 like writing, 572 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,970 writing is what builds that muscle, 573 00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:54,379 I think for so many people. 574 00:16:54,379 --> 00:16:54,860 And I think, 575 00:16:54,860 --> 00:16:55,320 you know, 576 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:56,870 as you think about like, 577 00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:58,549 as you think about like, 578 00:16:58,549 --> 00:16:59,269 you know, 579 00:16:59,269 --> 00:17:00,470 the impact of AI, 580 00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:01,029 right, 581 00:17:01,029 --> 00:17:04,159 and the impact of like some of this new technology, 582 00:17:04,159 --> 00:17:12,829 I think that one of the things that I am most concerned about for like sort of the next generation up is that with AI, 583 00:17:12,829 --> 00:17:17,349 there is no longer a reason to write. 584 00:17:17,349 --> 00:17:23,699 There's really not like there's not a reason to learn writing for like the average person, 585 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:24,420 right? 586 00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:25,370 Because if you are, 587 00:17:25,369 --> 00:17:28,019 if you're in school and you need to do a book report, 588 00:17:28,019 --> 00:17:28,579 like dog, 589 00:17:28,579 --> 00:17:30,579 by the time I finished this sentence, 590 00:17:30,579 --> 00:17:33,500 I can have a whole I can have like a five page, 591 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:34,210 you know, 592 00:17:34,210 --> 00:17:37,690 like book report on Confederacy of dunces in, 593 00:17:37,690 --> 00:17:38,549 you know, 594 00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:40,240 perfect with like MLA format and, 595 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:40,869 you know, 596 00:17:40,869 --> 00:17:41,989 everything else, 597 00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:42,590 right? 598 00:17:42,590 --> 00:17:42,860 Like, 599 00:17:42,860 --> 00:17:46,390 I don't need to know how to do any of that anymore. 600 00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:47,470 And yeah, 601 00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:50,789 that is I think that's one thing. 602 00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:53,000 That's one thing that like, 603 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,430 I think people look at writing as like a specific skill, 604 00:17:57,430 --> 00:18:00,630 but it actually impacts so much more of the way that you think. 605 00:18:00,630 --> 00:18:03,680 And I was fortunate enough to go to a high school that, 606 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:04,170 I mean, 607 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:06,150 pounded that into our brains. 608 00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:06,859 Yeah, 609 00:18:06,859 --> 00:18:10,660 I think writing teaches you how to think. 610 00:18:10,660 --> 00:18:12,250 Like the, 611 00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:18,759 like the iteration process that you can do with like written word versus spoken word, 612 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:21,950 like that iteration is like real refinement. 613 00:18:21,950 --> 00:18:28,190 So I give writing a lot of credit for our success early on. 614 00:18:28,190 --> 00:18:31,349 I now do more writing personally than I do like for work, 615 00:18:31,349 --> 00:18:32,140 if you will. 616 00:18:32,140 --> 00:18:32,500 I mean, 617 00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:33,119 still like, 618 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,069 there's like a lot, 619 00:18:34,069 --> 00:18:35,839 a lot of writing that goes into it, 620 00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:36,420 but yeah, 621 00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:38,029 I feel like writing is like a key, 622 00:18:38,029 --> 00:18:38,339 key, 623 00:18:38,339 --> 00:18:40,190 like entrepreneurial skill. 624 00:18:40,190 --> 00:18:41,269 A hundred percent. 625 00:18:41,269 --> 00:18:41,750 Right. 626 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:42,140 And, 627 00:18:42,140 --> 00:18:42,349 and, 628 00:18:42,349 --> 00:18:43,309 and to your point, 629 00:18:43,309 --> 00:18:43,829 right. 630 00:18:43,829 --> 00:18:44,220 It's, 631 00:18:44,220 --> 00:18:44,700 it is, 632 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:46,759 it's about like the other thing, 633 00:18:46,759 --> 00:18:47,180 like, 634 00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:47,900 and I mean, 635 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:48,549 you know, 636 00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:49,230 this was, 637 00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:50,289 this was again, 638 00:18:50,289 --> 00:18:52,309 like from like a high school standpoint, 639 00:18:52,309 --> 00:18:53,670 one of the things that they just, 640 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:53,950 I mean, 641 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:56,420 really hit into our heads was like, 642 00:18:56,420 --> 00:18:59,000 when you are writing something, 643 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,910 it should be perfect. 644 00:19:00,910 --> 00:19:03,789 Like it should come out essentially flawless. 645 00:19:03,789 --> 00:19:04,220 Right. 646 00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:04,630 Like if I'm, 647 00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:04,789 if, 648 00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:05,160 you know, 649 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,970 if you and I are sitting here talking and we're going back and forth, 650 00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:09,660 you know, 651 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:10,539 after this, 652 00:19:10,539 --> 00:19:11,430 like I might, 653 00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:12,309 you know, 654 00:19:12,309 --> 00:19:13,349 later tonight I might be like, 655 00:19:13,349 --> 00:19:13,509 oh, 656 00:19:13,509 --> 00:19:14,349 I should have said that, 657 00:19:14,349 --> 00:19:14,970 or I should have, 658 00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:15,349 you know, 659 00:19:15,349 --> 00:19:18,200 I should have said this or that or whatever. 660 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:18,880 Writing, 661 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,920 unless you are, 662 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:20,589 you know, 663 00:19:20,589 --> 00:19:21,230 again, 664 00:19:21,230 --> 00:19:22,059 unless you're like, 665 00:19:22,059 --> 00:19:22,599 I don't know, 666 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:25,069 a journalist trying to churn out like a breaking news story. 667 00:19:25,069 --> 00:19:28,140 Like if you are writing a long form essay, 668 00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:28,619 book, 669 00:19:28,619 --> 00:19:29,579 whatever, 670 00:19:29,579 --> 00:19:33,230 that's not something you should be doing the night before. 671 00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:33,869 Right. 672 00:19:33,869 --> 00:19:35,670 You need at least two days to write it. 673 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:36,029 Cause you had, 674 00:19:36,029 --> 00:19:36,480 you know, 675 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,039 give it one day to write it one day to, 676 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:38,490 you know, 677 00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:41,589 think about everything that you messed up and redo it. 678 00:19:41,589 --> 00:19:41,910 Right. 679 00:19:41,910 --> 00:19:42,309 Like, 680 00:19:42,309 --> 00:19:45,990 but you need at least two days to write anything long form. 681 00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:46,210 I mean, 682 00:19:46,210 --> 00:19:46,519 you know, 683 00:19:46,519 --> 00:19:48,910 obviously books and stuff like that would take a lot longer, 684 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:49,759 but in theory, 685 00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:50,440 right. 686 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:51,980 At least two days. 687 00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:52,589 And you know, 688 00:19:52,589 --> 00:19:54,509 like on the first day you go through, 689 00:19:54,509 --> 00:19:55,190 you know, 690 00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:55,470 you're, 691 00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:56,150 you're just, 692 00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:56,660 you know, 693 00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:57,759 trauma dumping your, 694 00:19:57,759 --> 00:19:58,269 you know, 695 00:19:58,269 --> 00:20:00,750 your thoughts onto the page. 696 00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:03,609 And then on the second day you're able to go through and it's like, 697 00:20:03,609 --> 00:20:03,920 okay, 698 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,720 well actually I shouldn't have said that. 699 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:05,900 Right. 700 00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:06,319 I should have, 701 00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:07,109 I should have said this. 702 00:20:07,109 --> 00:20:09,029 I need to include a paragraph on this, 703 00:20:09,029 --> 00:20:09,529 you know, 704 00:20:09,529 --> 00:20:10,549 things like that. 705 00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:10,769 I mean, 706 00:20:10,769 --> 00:20:10,960 shit, 707 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,069 even right now, 708 00:20:12,069 --> 00:20:12,839 you know, 709 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:14,410 we're working on a, 710 00:20:14,410 --> 00:20:18,309 we're working on like a document and you know, 711 00:20:18,309 --> 00:20:18,750 it, 712 00:20:18,750 --> 00:20:20,150 it was 11 pages. 713 00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:21,109 Now it's 15 pages. 714 00:20:21,109 --> 00:20:21,440 Right. 715 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,220 Because the first iteration was 11 pages. 716 00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:25,500 And then there's four pages of other stuff that like, 717 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,009 we went back as a team and it's like, 718 00:20:27,009 --> 00:20:27,549 oh no, 719 00:20:27,549 --> 00:20:28,549 actually we need to add this. 720 00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:29,920 We need to add this. 721 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:30,210 So it's, 722 00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:30,619 you know, 723 00:20:30,619 --> 00:20:33,309 it's one of those things that like written, 724 00:20:33,309 --> 00:20:34,609 written word, 725 00:20:34,609 --> 00:20:36,119 I think like if you, 726 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:42,119 if you respect written word the way that you should in terms of like your own writing process, 727 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:48,829 it should come out nearly flawless in that you should have said everything that you wanted to say. 728 00:20:48,829 --> 00:20:49,829 Yeah. 729 00:20:49,829 --> 00:20:50,369 Yeah, 730 00:20:50,369 --> 00:20:51,279 clearly. 731 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:51,910 Yeah. 732 00:20:51,910 --> 00:20:52,990 I like that. 733 00:20:52,990 --> 00:20:53,789 I think, 734 00:20:53,789 --> 00:20:54,940 I think I agree with you. 735 00:20:54,940 --> 00:20:59,309 I think that's one of the most powerful tools for sure. 736 00:20:59,309 --> 00:21:05,109 You mentioned there was like a number of different reasons for like why you became a founder. 737 00:21:05,109 --> 00:21:05,410 Like, 738 00:21:05,410 --> 00:21:11,279 do you think you could point to like one specific event or reason in your life that led you down this path? 739 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:11,710 Like what, 740 00:21:11,710 --> 00:21:13,190 what made you take it? 741 00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:18,789 Like take this journey of pain? 742 00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:19,359 I don't know. 743 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,049 I don't know if there's anything specific. 744 00:21:21,049 --> 00:21:21,460 I mean, 745 00:21:21,460 --> 00:21:21,630 look, 746 00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:21,849 I, 747 00:21:21,849 --> 00:21:22,069 my mom, 748 00:21:22,069 --> 00:21:23,569 my mom is a CPA. 749 00:21:23,569 --> 00:21:31,529 I watched her for years work for the same company and be undervalued. 750 00:21:31,529 --> 00:21:32,869 Right. 751 00:21:32,869 --> 00:21:33,630 In terms of, 752 00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:35,380 in terms of the work that she does. 753 00:21:35,380 --> 00:21:35,809 I mean, 754 00:21:35,809 --> 00:21:36,359 you know, 755 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:36,730 look, 756 00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:37,160 I mean, 757 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:37,380 I, 758 00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:39,329 I watched for years during tax season, 759 00:21:39,329 --> 00:21:39,880 you know, 760 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,579 she gets up at, 761 00:21:40,579 --> 00:21:41,079 you know, 762 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:42,789 3am after going to bed at, 763 00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:43,160 you know, 764 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:44,549 10am or 10pm. 765 00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:45,769 Right. 766 00:21:45,769 --> 00:21:46,630 Like, 767 00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:49,910 and just grinds and like, 768 00:21:49,910 --> 00:21:50,910 yeah. 769 00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:54,789 And like watching that be undervalued, 770 00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:57,230 I think was part of it. 771 00:21:57,230 --> 00:21:57,559 Right. 772 00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:58,019 Where like, 773 00:21:58,019 --> 00:22:05,700 I don't ever want to be in that position where like my skills or what I bring to the table is undervalued. 774 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,589 And obviously look like there's the good and the bad of it. 775 00:22:08,589 --> 00:22:09,049 I mean, 776 00:22:09,049 --> 00:22:09,690 like she, 777 00:22:09,690 --> 00:22:13,029 she has been basically with the same company her whole life. 778 00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:14,750 Which is obviously that's not the best way. 779 00:22:14,750 --> 00:22:15,059 I mean, 780 00:22:15,059 --> 00:22:15,460 you know, 781 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:15,730 look, 782 00:22:15,730 --> 00:22:16,420 I don't want to, 783 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:16,819 you know, 784 00:22:16,819 --> 00:22:18,789 like that's not the best way to grow your earnings. 785 00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:19,269 Right. 786 00:22:19,269 --> 00:22:19,910 I think everybody, 787 00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:23,799 I think that people know that now that the best way to grow your earnings is kind of, 788 00:22:23,799 --> 00:22:24,349 you know, 789 00:22:24,349 --> 00:22:26,980 how do you say like bouncing off the, 790 00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:27,849 you know, 791 00:22:27,849 --> 00:22:31,930 like spider manning off the walls as you climb up, 792 00:22:31,930 --> 00:22:32,640 right, 793 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,630 company to company. 794 00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:37,130 But like, 795 00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:37,940 I think there's, 796 00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:40,329 there's something to be said for like the loyalty, 797 00:22:40,329 --> 00:22:41,329 right. 798 00:22:41,329 --> 00:22:42,990 And I think that like that, 799 00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:49,200 like the loyalty is something that is largely gone with this generation. 800 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,690 This generation being our generation, 801 00:22:50,690 --> 00:22:52,049 and also younger generations, 802 00:22:52,049 --> 00:22:54,130 like millennial and down, 803 00:22:54,130 --> 00:22:58,609 I don't think like you don't have that loyalty anymore. 804 00:22:58,609 --> 00:22:59,130 Which, 805 00:22:59,130 --> 00:22:59,519 you know, 806 00:22:59,519 --> 00:22:59,819 look, 807 00:22:59,819 --> 00:23:00,079 I mean, 808 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:00,460 there's, 809 00:23:00,460 --> 00:23:01,190 there's all I mean, 810 00:23:01,190 --> 00:23:01,579 I get it. 811 00:23:01,579 --> 00:23:01,839 Like, 812 00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:02,190 yeah, 813 00:23:02,190 --> 00:23:03,730 if a company's not valuing you, 814 00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:04,680 then you know, 815 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,569 you should go somewhere else. 816 00:23:06,569 --> 00:23:07,240 At the same time, 817 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,690 there is something beautiful about building for the long term. 818 00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:12,299 Right. 819 00:23:12,299 --> 00:23:13,210 And like, 820 00:23:13,210 --> 00:23:13,690 you know, 821 00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:15,339 hopping company to companies is, 822 00:23:15,339 --> 00:23:15,849 you know, 823 00:23:15,849 --> 00:23:17,730 maybe a good way to earn more money. 824 00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:18,170 But like, 825 00:23:18,170 --> 00:23:20,460 you're not building something for the long term, 826 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:20,900 right? 827 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:23,970 You're just sort of a hired mercenary at that point. 828 00:23:23,970 --> 00:23:26,930 And so it was it was some combination of the two where it's like, 829 00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:29,380 I want to be able to build something that like, 830 00:23:29,380 --> 00:23:29,940 you know, 831 00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:34,250 really like from the ground up and really like be transformative in that process. 832 00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:35,200 But at the same time, 833 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,569 I want to make sure that like I am my skills are properly valued for you know, 834 00:23:39,569 --> 00:23:43,289 what I know that I'm able to bring to the table. 835 00:23:43,289 --> 00:23:46,640 So how do you get the most leverage from like your work? 836 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,529 Is that like a good summary? 837 00:23:48,529 --> 00:23:49,549 I think so. 838 00:23:49,549 --> 00:23:50,180 I mean, 839 00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:50,720 look, 840 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,529 frankly, 841 00:23:51,529 --> 00:23:52,700 I think I mean, 842 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:54,799 at the end of the day, 843 00:23:54,799 --> 00:24:01,640 like finding the most value for the work that you're doing, 844 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,609 you have to be an entrepreneur. 845 00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:05,190 At the same time, 846 00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:10,099 being an entrepreneur is also the best way to get absolutely no value for the work that you're doing, 847 00:24:10,099 --> 00:24:10,720 right? 848 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:11,640 It's like, 849 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,339 you know, 850 00:24:12,339 --> 00:24:13,190 high risk, 851 00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:14,710 high reward, 852 00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:15,009 right? 853 00:24:15,009 --> 00:24:15,170 Like, 854 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:15,369 you know, 855 00:24:15,369 --> 00:24:23,049 the odds of you getting absolutely no value for all the work that you did is actually quite high. 856 00:24:23,049 --> 00:24:23,440 And, 857 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:23,900 you know, 858 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:25,369 on the same at the same time, 859 00:24:25,369 --> 00:24:26,470 if it works out, 860 00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:27,950 then you're going to be you know, 861 00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:31,650 you're going to earn significantly more than you could have as you know, 862 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:33,950 in as an employee somewhere. 863 00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:34,710 Yeah, 864 00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:38,700 with the cost of like just higher risk profile. 865 00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:39,170 But when you're the cost of you know, 866 00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:39,930 giving up, 867 00:24:39,930 --> 00:24:40,400 you know, 868 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,130 giving up years of your life to stress. 869 00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:44,130 Yeah, 870 00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:44,660 yeah, 871 00:24:44,660 --> 00:24:48,329 definitely feel like I am squeezing in my 20s. 872 00:24:48,329 --> 00:24:52,130 Do you think that you're going to be able to do what you're doing sustainably? 873 00:24:52,130 --> 00:24:52,490 Like, 874 00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:52,859 like, 875 00:24:52,859 --> 00:24:55,369 I know you go really hard with your work. 876 00:24:55,369 --> 00:24:56,210 You take it really seriously. 877 00:24:56,210 --> 00:24:57,609 Like you're very intense with it. 878 00:24:57,609 --> 00:24:59,849 You've been doing this for 10 years. 879 00:24:59,849 --> 00:25:06,650 Can you see yourself like maintaining this intensity for 1020 more years? 880 00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:09,460 Um, 881 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:10,220 I think it depends, 882 00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:10,609 right? 883 00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:11,650 I think it depends. 884 00:25:11,650 --> 00:25:12,440 Like, 885 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,519 so I mean, 886 00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:18,250 I think part of part of the reason that I've been able to do that, 887 00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:22,109 and to do this for so many years sustainably is like, 888 00:25:22,109 --> 00:25:23,619 with yellow card, 889 00:25:23,619 --> 00:25:24,269 I mean, 890 00:25:24,269 --> 00:25:27,000 it feels like it feels like I mean, 891 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,089 you can point to like different stages of the company. 892 00:25:30,089 --> 00:25:30,559 And it's like, 893 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:30,849 that's, 894 00:25:30,849 --> 00:25:32,490 that was a totally different company. 895 00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:33,220 Right? 896 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:34,220 And so like, 897 00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:36,410 it feels like a new company, 898 00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:37,599 right? 899 00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:40,049 Multi many times. 900 00:25:40,049 --> 00:25:44,930 And so that has helped keep it interesting, 901 00:25:44,930 --> 00:25:46,569 right? 902 00:25:46,569 --> 00:25:50,140 That has helped keep it fun that has helped keep it, 903 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:50,970 you know, 904 00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:52,289 challenging, 905 00:25:52,289 --> 00:25:53,000 right, 906 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,759 working the brain, 907 00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:56,690 that kind of thing. 908 00:25:56,690 --> 00:25:57,910 At the same time, 909 00:25:57,910 --> 00:25:58,400 like, 910 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,019 in the absence of that, 911 00:26:00,019 --> 00:26:01,480 if it was just I mean, 912 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,099 if we were just doing the same thing every day, 913 00:26:04,099 --> 00:26:05,049 over and over again, 914 00:26:05,049 --> 00:26:06,369 there was never any change, 915 00:26:06,369 --> 00:26:08,259 there was never like pivoting, 916 00:26:08,259 --> 00:26:10,069 there was never any of that. 917 00:26:10,069 --> 00:26:12,569 I don't know how long it would be sustainable, 918 00:26:12,569 --> 00:26:13,089 right? 919 00:26:13,089 --> 00:26:13,869 I think like, 920 00:26:13,869 --> 00:26:14,839 I think you need, 921 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:15,750 at least for me, 922 00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:16,289 right? 923 00:26:16,289 --> 00:26:16,660 Like, 924 00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,130 I need that excitement, 925 00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:18,859 right? 926 00:26:18,859 --> 00:26:20,420 I need like something, 927 00:26:20,420 --> 00:26:21,890 like something new, 928 00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:26,680 something like it needs to feel like it's something not net new, 929 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,609 but like something that is working, 930 00:26:29,609 --> 00:26:31,059 that's growing, 931 00:26:31,059 --> 00:26:33,880 that's going in the right direction, 932 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,009 all of that. 933 00:26:35,009 --> 00:26:35,839 And yeah, 934 00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:36,480 I mean, 935 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,049 at least for me, 936 00:26:38,049 --> 00:26:40,130 and I think for a lot of the team, 937 00:26:40,130 --> 00:26:44,000 the most recent rebirth has happened within this past calendar year, 938 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,049 right? 939 00:26:45,049 --> 00:26:46,720 With like the US elections last year, 940 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,309 and then like the Genius Act and everything this year, 941 00:26:49,309 --> 00:26:49,940 you know, 942 00:26:49,940 --> 00:26:50,920 all of a sudden, 943 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:51,410 I mean, 944 00:26:51,410 --> 00:26:54,890 I've been running around saying stable coins into a void for, 945 00:26:54,890 --> 00:26:55,289 you know, 946 00:26:55,289 --> 00:26:55,609 years, 947 00:26:55,609 --> 00:26:56,539 and then all of a sudden, 948 00:26:56,539 --> 00:26:57,589 everybody cares about it, 949 00:26:57,589 --> 00:26:59,450 and the President's talking about it. 950 00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:59,799 And, 951 00:26:59,799 --> 00:27:00,240 you know, 952 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,109 you have all this activity going on in the space. 953 00:27:03,109 --> 00:27:03,630 And so I think, 954 00:27:03,630 --> 00:27:04,009 you know, 955 00:27:04,009 --> 00:27:05,490 like stuff like that has helped a lot. 956 00:27:05,490 --> 00:27:07,220 I think in the absence of that, 957 00:27:07,220 --> 00:27:08,259 it's hard to say, 958 00:27:08,259 --> 00:27:08,609 like, 959 00:27:08,609 --> 00:27:12,579 it's hard to say where I would be at from like a headspace standpoint, 960 00:27:12,579 --> 00:27:14,450 if none of that ever happened. 961 00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:15,079 If again, 962 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:15,650 we were just, 963 00:27:15,650 --> 00:27:16,410 you know, 964 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:19,809 banging our heads into a wall saying stable coin. 965 00:27:19,809 --> 00:27:21,730 But I think like the, 966 00:27:21,730 --> 00:27:22,130 like the, 967 00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:23,299 how do you say, 968 00:27:23,299 --> 00:27:25,930 there are external factors that, 969 00:27:25,930 --> 00:27:27,190 at least for me, 970 00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:30,259 that affect like my internal monologue, 971 00:27:30,259 --> 00:27:30,730 right? 972 00:27:30,730 --> 00:27:33,279 And like those external factors, 973 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:37,529 the macro environment shifting helped me quite a bit to like, 974 00:27:37,529 --> 00:27:38,180 you know, 975 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:39,700 stay grounded and like, 976 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:40,059 yes, 977 00:27:40,059 --> 00:27:41,089 this is good. 978 00:27:41,089 --> 00:27:41,329 Let's, 979 00:27:41,329 --> 00:27:42,160 you know, 980 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,359 the hell yeah, 981 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:44,000 dude, 982 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,099 let's make this happen. 983 00:27:46,099 --> 00:27:46,809 When you're saying macro environment, 984 00:27:46,809 --> 00:27:48,339 you're referring to like, 985 00:27:48,339 --> 00:27:50,930 the price and hype around cryptocurrencies? 986 00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:54,009 Are you talking about the regulatory landscape or something else? 987 00:27:54,009 --> 00:27:54,720 I mean, 988 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,420 for us, 989 00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:56,079 it's, 990 00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:57,809 it's stable coins, 991 00:27:57,809 --> 00:27:58,170 right? 992 00:27:58,170 --> 00:28:01,009 So they are still $1. 993 00:28:01,009 --> 00:28:02,130 And much to my chagrin, 994 00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:04,309 I bought all this USDT back in the day, 995 00:28:04,309 --> 00:28:05,490 hoping it was going to make me rich, 996 00:28:05,490 --> 00:28:06,930 hoping I was going to retire on it. 997 00:28:06,930 --> 00:28:08,369 And it is still $1. 998 00:28:08,369 --> 00:28:11,930 I should have just bought Bitcoin. 999 00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:12,599 But so, 1000 00:28:12,599 --> 00:28:13,470 you know, 1001 00:28:13,470 --> 00:28:14,440 with, 1002 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:15,700 with stable coins, 1003 00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:16,490 you know, 1004 00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:17,289 look crypto, 1005 00:28:17,289 --> 00:28:19,839 like the crypto boom and bust cycle happens, 1006 00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:24,849 and that's going to continue to happen regardless. 1007 00:28:24,849 --> 00:28:25,509 But I think, 1008 00:28:25,509 --> 00:28:26,049 you know, 1009 00:28:26,049 --> 00:28:27,380 with stable coins, 1010 00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:33,549 this year has been the first year that people really came around to this realization that like, 1011 00:28:33,549 --> 00:28:34,150 oh, 1012 00:28:34,150 --> 00:28:34,440 shit, 1013 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,519 like stable coins are huge. 1014 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:42,690 Like this is this technology is a fundamental shift in the way that money moves around the world, 1015 00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:43,140 right? 1016 00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:43,980 And like, 1017 00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:45,809 this is a good thing. 1018 00:28:45,809 --> 00:28:47,759 And I think that like, 1019 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:53,150 that people coming around to that has helped a lot, 1020 00:28:53,150 --> 00:28:54,359 right? 1021 00:28:54,359 --> 00:28:54,819 In that, 1022 00:28:54,819 --> 00:28:54,990 like, 1023 00:28:54,990 --> 00:28:56,849 it's just a lot more fun now. 1024 00:28:56,849 --> 00:28:57,269 Right? 1025 00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:57,599 Like, 1026 00:28:57,599 --> 00:28:58,819 I don't I didn't love I mean, 1027 00:28:58,819 --> 00:28:59,289 you know, 1028 00:28:59,289 --> 00:28:59,599 look, 1029 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:00,619 for like two years, 1030 00:29:00,619 --> 00:29:01,180 it's like, 1031 00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:01,450 man, 1032 00:29:01,450 --> 00:29:02,000 it's like, 1033 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,490 you know, 1034 00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:03,859 we're going around for less, 1035 00:29:03,859 --> 00:29:04,339 you know, 1036 00:29:04,339 --> 00:29:04,809 I mean, 1037 00:29:04,809 --> 00:29:05,569 more than two years, 1038 00:29:05,569 --> 00:29:05,829 right? 1039 00:29:05,829 --> 00:29:06,539 Like four years now, 1040 00:29:06,539 --> 00:29:08,609 we've been going around explaining to people, 1041 00:29:08,609 --> 00:29:09,039 you know, 1042 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:09,380 oh, 1043 00:29:09,380 --> 00:29:10,720 stable coins are good, 1044 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,089 you should use stable coins to do this or do that. 1045 00:29:14,089 --> 00:29:15,750 And you know, 1046 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:18,329 it's like the dollar, 1047 00:29:18,329 --> 00:29:19,940 but better, 1048 00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:21,069 you know, 1049 00:29:21,069 --> 00:29:23,769 all this and you know, 1050 00:29:23,769 --> 00:29:27,529 most of these guys wouldn't even return our calls. 1051 00:29:27,529 --> 00:29:28,150 Right? 1052 00:29:28,150 --> 00:29:28,970 I you know, 1053 00:29:28,970 --> 00:29:30,609 I now all of a sudden, 1054 00:29:30,609 --> 00:29:31,670 after 2025, 1055 00:29:31,670 --> 00:29:33,769 we're working with companies that you know, 1056 00:29:33,769 --> 00:29:37,130 two years ago wouldn't get on the phone with me wouldn't return a call, 1057 00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:37,619 you know, 1058 00:29:37,619 --> 00:29:38,650 things like that. 1059 00:29:38,650 --> 00:29:39,009 Right? 1060 00:29:39,009 --> 00:29:40,660 So it's it's there's been I mean, 1061 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:46,160 there's been quite a shift in sort of the macro environment as you think about like this technology. 1062 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,180 And at least for me, 1063 00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:49,700 that has helped that has helped quite a bit, 1064 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:50,289 right? 1065 00:29:50,289 --> 00:29:51,240 I think that other like, 1066 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:51,650 you know, 1067 00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:54,059 you see like the bridge acquisition and stuff like that, 1068 00:29:54,059 --> 00:29:57,769 like other things that like are exciting that happen in the ecosystem, 1069 00:29:57,769 --> 00:29:58,529 you know, 1070 00:29:58,529 --> 00:29:58,750 again, 1071 00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:00,430 just sort of revitalizes that, 1072 00:30:00,430 --> 00:30:00,839 like, 1073 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:01,349 you know, 1074 00:30:01,349 --> 00:30:03,900 how do you say like competitive spirit, 1075 00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:05,130 right? 1076 00:30:05,130 --> 00:30:11,940 Do you think that you could still be excited if yellow card was still doing a lot of what it was doing at first, 1077 00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:13,329 like in the first two, 1078 00:30:13,329 --> 00:30:14,259 three years, 1079 00:30:14,259 --> 00:30:15,730 just scaling that up, 1080 00:30:15,730 --> 00:30:17,839 like rinse and repeat style? 1081 00:30:17,839 --> 00:30:19,480 Or do you think like these, 1082 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,480 the landscape changing and you creating these business pivots was like necessary to keep you, 1083 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,960 like psychologically, 1084 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:27,390 like, 1085 00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:28,170 engaged, 1086 00:30:28,170 --> 00:30:31,410 like the not through the novelty of the change? 1087 00:30:31,410 --> 00:30:32,410 So, 1088 00:30:32,410 --> 00:30:33,940 you know, 1089 00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:34,480 I, 1090 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:35,920 I think, 1091 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:36,180 um, 1092 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:36,759 you know, 1093 00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:38,259 I refer to it as pivots, 1094 00:30:38,259 --> 00:30:38,720 right? 1095 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,339 But I like when I think it's like, 1096 00:30:41,339 --> 00:30:42,730 in hindsight, 1097 00:30:42,730 --> 00:30:47,279 you can sort of point to where a pivot happened. 1098 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:49,480 But in practice going through it, 1099 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,289 there was never a decision, 1100 00:30:51,289 --> 00:30:54,630 there was never a hard decision to pivot, 1101 00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:55,710 right? 1102 00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:57,240 At no point where we were we like, 1103 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,730 you know, 1104 00:30:57,730 --> 00:30:58,279 actually, 1105 00:30:58,279 --> 00:30:58,609 like, 1106 00:30:58,609 --> 00:31:01,329 let's just do this entirely different thing. 1107 00:31:01,329 --> 00:31:03,529 It's one of those things that sort of happened naturally, 1108 00:31:03,529 --> 00:31:04,529 right? 1109 00:31:04,529 --> 00:31:07,140 And I think what was important for for me, 1110 00:31:07,140 --> 00:31:08,039 and you know, 1111 00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:09,380 for for our team, 1112 00:31:09,380 --> 00:31:12,950 was letting those letting those things happen naturally, 1113 00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:13,569 right? 1114 00:31:13,569 --> 00:31:14,000 Like, 1115 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,380 let the business go where customers and where the market leads it, 1116 00:31:18,380 --> 00:31:20,359 rather than trying to just, 1117 00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:21,200 I mean, 1118 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,480 just force in like, 1119 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:22,900 no, 1120 00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:23,829 this is like, 1121 00:31:23,829 --> 00:31:25,210 this is the idea. 1122 00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:26,140 This is what we're doing. 1123 00:31:26,140 --> 00:31:28,569 We're not deviating from this. 1124 00:31:28,569 --> 00:31:31,369 And I think that that has been quite important, 1125 00:31:31,369 --> 00:31:32,109 right? 1126 00:31:32,109 --> 00:31:32,460 So, 1127 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:32,890 you know, 1128 00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:33,240 I mean, 1129 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,690 I'll give you like a good example, 1130 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:35,130 right? 1131 00:31:35,130 --> 00:31:35,710 So, 1132 00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:36,349 um, 1133 00:31:36,349 --> 00:31:37,589 you know, 1134 00:31:37,589 --> 00:31:39,039 when we, 1135 00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:39,329 uh, 1136 00:31:39,329 --> 00:31:40,119 you know, 1137 00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:40,480 back, 1138 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:40,789 I mean, 1139 00:31:40,789 --> 00:31:41,339 you know, 1140 00:31:41,339 --> 00:31:42,180 several years ago, 1141 00:31:42,180 --> 00:31:42,490 right, 1142 00:31:42,490 --> 00:31:46,210 when we started doing more customer interviews and trying to really nail down, 1143 00:31:46,210 --> 00:31:46,710 you know, 1144 00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:47,849 what is the use case? 1145 00:31:47,849 --> 00:31:48,410 What is this? 1146 00:31:48,410 --> 00:31:50,690 What is that? 1147 00:31:50,690 --> 00:31:51,079 Um, 1148 00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:53,390 that was when we started to realize, 1149 00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:53,690 uh, 1150 00:31:53,690 --> 00:31:54,559 you know, 1151 00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:54,839 okay, 1152 00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:59,339 our biggest customers and where most of our revenue is coming from, 1153 00:31:59,339 --> 00:32:01,250 are actually businesses. 1154 00:32:01,250 --> 00:32:02,009 They're not consumers, 1155 00:32:02,009 --> 00:32:02,410 right? 1156 00:32:02,410 --> 00:32:04,700 We started off as a consumer exchange, 1157 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:07,970 but most of the revenue is coming from businesses, 1158 00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:08,670 right? 1159 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:09,799 Small businesses, 1160 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:10,400 you know, 1161 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,099 large businesses, 1162 00:32:12,099 --> 00:32:12,230 whatever, 1163 00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:13,009 right? 1164 00:32:13,009 --> 00:32:13,710 And you have, 1165 00:32:13,710 --> 00:32:13,990 you know, 1166 00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:19,849 the CFO or the treasurer signing up with a personal account because we didn't do business accounts at the time. 1167 00:32:19,849 --> 00:32:33,640 And as we started to realize that the focus shifted naturally as that sort of revenue concentration shifted, 1168 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:34,400 i.e. 1169 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,069 as the, 1170 00:32:35,069 --> 00:32:39,880 as the concentration of like true consumers to businesses shifted, 1171 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,039 we tried to shift resourcing, 1172 00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:42,650 right? 1173 00:32:42,650 --> 00:32:43,410 We tried to shift, 1174 00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:43,819 you know, 1175 00:32:43,819 --> 00:32:44,690 marketing towards, 1176 00:32:44,690 --> 00:32:45,109 you know, 1177 00:32:45,109 --> 00:32:49,400 focusing on businesses rather than focusing on like Daniel as an individual, 1178 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:49,930 right? 1179 00:32:49,930 --> 00:32:51,009 We started to focus, 1180 00:32:51,009 --> 00:32:52,410 we started to shift, 1181 00:32:52,410 --> 00:32:52,569 uh, 1182 00:32:52,569 --> 00:32:53,289 you know, 1183 00:32:53,289 --> 00:32:57,210 the resourcing from like a customer support standpoint, 1184 00:32:57,210 --> 00:32:57,930 right. 1185 00:32:57,930 --> 00:32:58,529 Uh, 1186 00:32:58,529 --> 00:33:00,059 to make sure that, 1187 00:33:00,059 --> 00:33:00,829 you know, 1188 00:33:00,829 --> 00:33:02,119 we have enough, 1189 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:02,480 uh, 1190 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:09,930 we have enough sort of help for these businesses that need more handholding than like the average consumer. 1191 00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:10,700 And so, 1192 00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:11,490 yeah, 1193 00:33:11,490 --> 00:33:11,940 I mean, 1194 00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:12,630 you know, 1195 00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:13,440 we tried to, 1196 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,849 we tried to follow the customer more than anything. 1197 00:33:16,849 --> 00:33:17,250 I think, 1198 00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:18,009 you know, 1199 00:33:18,009 --> 00:33:18,430 the, 1200 00:33:18,430 --> 00:33:25,250 the way that I see it is we put out technology and we had an idea of what that technology would be used for. 1201 00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:27,930 And then the market told us something completely different, 1202 00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:28,930 right? 1203 00:33:28,930 --> 00:33:29,880 And I think this is, 1204 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:30,390 you know, 1205 00:33:30,390 --> 00:33:32,140 this is how it goes with a lot of tech, 1206 00:33:32,140 --> 00:33:32,690 right? 1207 00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:33,029 I can, 1208 00:33:33,029 --> 00:33:34,220 I guarantee you that, 1209 00:33:34,220 --> 00:33:34,640 you know, 1210 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,000 Sam Altman had a very specific idea of what like chat GPT is going to be used for. 1211 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:39,450 Right. 1212 00:33:39,450 --> 00:33:40,910 And I don't think that he, 1213 00:33:40,910 --> 00:33:41,559 you know, 1214 00:33:41,559 --> 00:33:43,079 it would be used for, 1215 00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:43,890 you know, 1216 00:33:43,890 --> 00:33:46,069 generating videos of like, 1217 00:33:46,069 --> 00:33:46,880 you know, 1218 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,250 Obama and Trump arguing about like video games. 1219 00:33:50,250 --> 00:33:50,819 Right. 1220 00:33:50,819 --> 00:33:51,240 Like, 1221 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:51,519 so, 1222 00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:52,150 you know, 1223 00:33:52,150 --> 00:33:52,859 it's like, 1224 00:33:52,859 --> 00:33:53,480 it just, 1225 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,019 I think once you put tech and products out into the world, 1226 00:33:58,019 --> 00:34:04,619 you have to be open to the idea that you don't actually know everything about the tech and the products. 1227 00:34:04,619 --> 00:34:05,130 Right. 1228 00:34:05,130 --> 00:34:05,829 A lot of it. 1229 00:34:05,829 --> 00:34:06,359 Yeah. 1230 00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:08,930 It's going to be determined by the market. 1231 00:34:08,930 --> 00:34:09,300 Yeah. 1232 00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,930 I think that's like one of the most interesting things in the startup journey. 1233 00:34:12,930 --> 00:34:13,400 And like, 1234 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,599 it can happen right away at the very beginning, 1235 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:16,970 like users can surprise you, 1236 00:34:16,970 --> 00:34:20,420 but I find that that's something that just like never stops. 1237 00:34:20,420 --> 00:34:22,859 Like the users will like use your like air quotes, 1238 00:34:22,859 --> 00:34:23,439 misuse, 1239 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,769 like your product in a way that was different than intended. 1240 00:34:26,769 --> 00:34:28,769 And you can learn so much from that. 1241 00:34:28,769 --> 00:34:29,150 Yes. 1242 00:34:29,150 --> 00:34:31,890 I actually wanted to ask you about this shift. 1243 00:34:31,890 --> 00:34:34,329 This is one of the things I was like really curious about. 1244 00:34:34,329 --> 00:34:38,680 I think January 1st is the cutoff right for like no more retail, 1245 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,890 like consumer transactions. 1246 00:34:40,890 --> 00:34:43,730 It's all B2B from that point on. 1247 00:34:43,730 --> 00:34:44,730 Right. 1248 00:34:44,730 --> 00:34:45,170 So what, 1249 00:34:45,170 --> 00:34:45,559 like, 1250 00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:49,920 how do you feel about like this change in the mission and like how like change in focus, 1251 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,110 like you started this company for with different reasons in mind, 1252 00:34:54,110 --> 00:34:54,889 like how do you, 1253 00:34:54,889 --> 00:35:00,530 how do you like grapple with both like the change in mission as well as like the change in focus? 1254 00:35:00,530 --> 00:35:01,210 Yeah. 1255 00:35:01,210 --> 00:35:01,719 I mean, 1256 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:02,230 this, 1257 00:35:02,230 --> 00:35:03,429 this happened, 1258 00:35:03,429 --> 00:35:05,489 this happened in practice, 1259 00:35:05,489 --> 00:35:07,929 I would say several years ago. 1260 00:35:07,929 --> 00:35:11,000 It is one of those things that, 1261 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,000 you know, 1262 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,710 look, 1263 00:35:12,710 --> 00:35:15,610 the mobile app made money. 1264 00:35:15,610 --> 00:35:16,440 Right. 1265 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:17,530 And it was, 1266 00:35:17,530 --> 00:35:18,300 you know, 1267 00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:18,760 it's, 1268 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,440 it was, 1269 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,940 it was doing fine. 1270 00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:23,400 But as a percentage of revenue, 1271 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,216 it just like the B2B side of the business kept growing 1272 00:35:27,216 --> 00:35:30,893 so quickly that the mobile app became just a smaller 1273 00:35:30,893 --> 00:35:34,639 and smaller and smaller percentage of overall revenue. 1274 00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:36,530 And so it got to the point, 1275 00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:37,289 obviously, 1276 00:35:37,289 --> 00:35:38,199 where we are now, 1277 00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:39,190 where it's like, 1278 00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:39,599 okay, 1279 00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:42,730 it doesn't make sense for us to continue to resource this. 1280 00:35:42,730 --> 00:35:43,139 Like, 1281 00:35:43,139 --> 00:35:44,030 it's just like, 1282 00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:44,489 we can, 1283 00:35:44,489 --> 00:35:45,409 we can cut this, 1284 00:35:45,409 --> 00:35:46,119 it will be, 1285 00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:46,769 you know, 1286 00:35:46,769 --> 00:35:51,170 it will not even make a dent in sort of overall revenue. 1287 00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:53,250 And it just doesn't make sense to continue to resource it. 1288 00:35:53,250 --> 00:35:53,489 Right. 1289 00:35:53,489 --> 00:35:54,199 It's actually, 1290 00:35:54,199 --> 00:35:54,539 I mean, 1291 00:35:54,539 --> 00:35:56,889 like consumer is quite resource intensive. 1292 00:35:56,889 --> 00:35:57,889 Yeah. 1293 00:35:57,889 --> 00:35:59,960 As compared to like B2B. 1294 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:00,340 Right. 1295 00:36:00,340 --> 00:36:04,889 And so it's one of those things where we shifted, 1296 00:36:04,889 --> 00:36:06,570 we shifted that focus. 1297 00:36:06,570 --> 00:36:07,260 Right. 1298 00:36:07,260 --> 00:36:09,530 And we shifted it away from doing, 1299 00:36:09,530 --> 00:36:10,250 you know, 1300 00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:12,650 from doing consumer years ago. 1301 00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:13,019 Right. 1302 00:36:13,019 --> 00:36:14,550 We haven't marketed to consumers in, 1303 00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:14,869 I mean, 1304 00:36:14,869 --> 00:36:15,289 you know, 1305 00:36:15,289 --> 00:36:17,110 a couple of years at this point, 1306 00:36:17,110 --> 00:36:20,980 we haven't even let new people onto the app in a while. 1307 00:36:20,980 --> 00:36:22,409 We raised minimums, 1308 00:36:22,409 --> 00:36:23,409 things like that. 1309 00:36:23,409 --> 00:36:23,670 Right. 1310 00:36:23,670 --> 00:36:24,039 So it's been, 1311 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:26,250 it's been sort of a slow roll of, 1312 00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:28,559 you know, 1313 00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:32,889 moving existing customers and that sort of thing off of the app. 1314 00:36:32,889 --> 00:36:33,230 Right. 1315 00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:34,639 We didn't want to just shut it down. 1316 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:35,099 I mean, 1317 00:36:35,099 --> 00:36:35,559 we had, 1318 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:36,840 look at it at our peak, 1319 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,849 we had like 2 million consumers on the app. 1320 00:36:39,849 --> 00:36:40,110 Right. 1321 00:36:40,110 --> 00:36:40,380 So it's, 1322 00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:45,530 it's one of those things that we didn't want to just shut down and kill overnight. 1323 00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:45,909 And so, 1324 00:36:45,909 --> 00:36:46,400 you know, 1325 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,159 we sort of devised a plan where it's like, 1326 00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:48,480 Hey, 1327 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:48,929 look, 1328 00:36:48,929 --> 00:36:49,690 let's, 1329 00:36:49,690 --> 00:36:50,210 you know, 1330 00:36:50,210 --> 00:36:52,489 let's not continue to grow it. 1331 00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:53,119 And then, 1332 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:53,750 you know, 1333 00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:55,800 as B2B continues to grow, 1334 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,769 like this just becomes a smaller and smaller and smaller part of revenue to where, 1335 00:37:00,769 --> 00:37:01,530 you know, 1336 00:37:01,530 --> 00:37:01,750 any, 1337 00:37:01,750 --> 00:37:04,230 any important consumers that are left, 1338 00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:04,769 right. 1339 00:37:04,769 --> 00:37:07,960 Anybody that's doing like large enough volumes to sort of be considered a business, 1340 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:08,989 we'll move them over. 1341 00:37:08,989 --> 00:37:10,190 We have a business portal, 1342 00:37:10,190 --> 00:37:10,730 which is, 1343 00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:11,150 I mean, 1344 00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:13,139 essentially the same thing as the app, 1345 00:37:13,139 --> 00:37:15,050 just not a mobile app. 1346 00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:15,579 You know, 1347 00:37:15,579 --> 00:37:16,719 we moved them over there. 1348 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:17,199 And then, 1349 00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:17,769 you know, 1350 00:37:17,769 --> 00:37:19,530 for like the smaller consumers, 1351 00:37:19,530 --> 00:37:20,530 right. 1352 00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:21,769 The guys that are doing, 1353 00:37:21,769 --> 00:37:22,300 you know, 1354 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:23,170 10 bucks. 1355 00:37:23,170 --> 00:37:23,659 Yeah. 1356 00:37:23,659 --> 00:37:24,079 That, 1357 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:24,710 you know, 1358 00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:25,690 we just don't, 1359 00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:30,769 we just won't service that anymore starting next year. 1360 00:37:30,769 --> 00:37:37,789 It reminds me of when Brex decided to stop serving traditional small businesses and decided to focus on like venture-backed businesses and the like, 1361 00:37:37,789 --> 00:37:39,010 like it's important. 1362 00:37:39,010 --> 00:37:44,130 There comes a time often where you have to like decide like who your customer really is, 1363 00:37:44,130 --> 00:37:46,190 because if you build for the mall, 1364 00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:48,849 like you're in a way you're not building for anybody. 1365 00:37:48,849 --> 00:37:49,480 Like we, 1366 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,250 like SwiftSKU service gas stations, 1367 00:37:52,250 --> 00:37:53,780 the needs of gas stations, 1368 00:37:53,780 --> 00:37:56,250 liquor stores and smoke shops are very similar. 1369 00:37:56,250 --> 00:38:01,250 Like it is very easy for us to build for smoke shops and liquor stores. 1370 00:38:01,250 --> 00:38:01,619 In fact, 1371 00:38:01,619 --> 00:38:05,050 some of our customers also use us at those other locations. 1372 00:38:05,050 --> 00:38:07,360 But at the end of the day, 1373 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,849 if we like focus on building for liquor stores or smoke shops, 1374 00:38:11,849 --> 00:38:14,219 like it takes away from our gas station, 1375 00:38:14,219 --> 00:38:15,130 like core ICP, 1376 00:38:15,130 --> 00:38:20,710 which is like 81% of TAM or like the majority of the low hanging fruit return on investment lies, 1377 00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:22,769 we're in the industry we know the best. 1378 00:38:22,769 --> 00:38:26,869 So like there's often like this decision that you have to make as a founder, 1379 00:38:26,869 --> 00:38:31,389 like where you just have to really focus and like not get distracted by the shiny. 1380 00:38:31,389 --> 00:38:32,429 But in this case, 1381 00:38:32,429 --> 00:38:36,690 it seems it's a little different because you're switching like your core audience. 1382 00:38:36,690 --> 00:38:39,010 And like I can see why. 1383 00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:41,449 Like there's less headache. 1384 00:38:41,449 --> 00:38:45,462 Like you probably had consumers that gave you a lot more headache 1385 00:38:45,462 --> 00:38:48,928 on your support phone lines than many B2B customers that 1386 00:38:48,928 --> 00:38:52,089 are like tens and thousands of X large times larger. 1387 00:38:52,090 --> 00:38:53,090 Yes. 1388 00:38:53,090 --> 00:38:54,199 But at the end of the day, 1389 00:38:54,199 --> 00:39:04,050 like do you do you feel like you might be letting consumers down not continuing with the original mission of enabling them not building for them? 1390 00:39:04,050 --> 00:39:07,929 I think I think that realistically. 1391 00:39:07,929 --> 00:39:11,610 So here's what I will say is we still have all the tech, 1392 00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:12,610 right? 1393 00:39:12,610 --> 00:39:13,559 It's not like, 1394 00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:14,280 you know, 1395 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,289 we didn't throw the code away. 1396 00:39:16,289 --> 00:39:18,130 We are enabling, 1397 00:39:18,130 --> 00:39:18,920 you know, 1398 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,210 the white labeling of, 1399 00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:20,789 you know, 1400 00:39:20,789 --> 00:39:22,150 consumer platform for, 1401 00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:22,730 you know, 1402 00:39:22,730 --> 00:39:24,900 companies that we do we work with. 1403 00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:27,809 We do a lot of B2B to see all of that. 1404 00:39:27,809 --> 00:39:27,969 Right. 1405 00:39:27,969 --> 00:39:33,130 So there are still ways to interact with us. 1406 00:39:33,130 --> 00:39:41,371 I think that to do a consumer crypto exchange in emerging markets in Africa 1407 00:39:41,371 --> 00:39:50,155 specifically where we started out that business is probably I would say probably 1408 00:39:50,155 --> 00:39:58,179 five to 10 years away from being completely sustainable in and of its own. 1409 00:39:58,179 --> 00:39:59,090 Right. 1410 00:39:59,090 --> 00:40:05,360 And I think that there's a number of factors that go into that. 1411 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,289 If you look at I mean, 1412 00:40:07,289 --> 00:40:07,489 look, 1413 00:40:07,489 --> 00:40:09,980 if you look at just like population trends, 1414 00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:10,949 income trends, 1415 00:40:10,949 --> 00:40:13,949 things like that over the next five to 10 years, 1416 00:40:13,949 --> 00:40:15,809 you will see a massive change. 1417 00:40:15,809 --> 00:40:16,250 Right. 1418 00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:21,369 In the population and income demographics of like the African continent. 1419 00:40:21,369 --> 00:40:22,179 You can you can look at I mean, 1420 00:40:22,179 --> 00:40:22,480 frankly, 1421 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,530 you can look at it very similar to the way that like India has trended. 1422 00:40:26,530 --> 00:40:27,019 Right. 1423 00:40:27,019 --> 00:40:27,449 Where, 1424 00:40:27,449 --> 00:40:27,989 you know, 1425 00:40:27,989 --> 00:40:33,210 if you try to start a consumer crypto exchange in India 20 years ago, 1426 00:40:33,210 --> 00:40:36,860 it like it just it wouldn't have really been possible. 1427 00:40:36,860 --> 00:40:37,389 Right. 1428 00:40:37,389 --> 00:40:39,719 Like the income levels weren't there. 1429 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,210 The you know, 1430 00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:42,289 just the population, 1431 00:40:42,289 --> 00:40:43,869 like it just it wasn't there. 1432 00:40:43,869 --> 00:40:44,369 Right. 1433 00:40:44,369 --> 00:40:44,969 Also, 1434 00:40:44,969 --> 00:40:49,650 the cost for compliance was significantly higher. 1435 00:40:49,650 --> 00:40:50,199 You know, 1436 00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:51,489 when you go back 25, 1437 00:40:51,489 --> 00:40:53,090 30 years in like India, 1438 00:40:53,090 --> 00:40:53,690 in Africa, 1439 00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:54,690 it's the same thing today. 1440 00:40:54,690 --> 00:40:55,219 Right. 1441 00:40:55,219 --> 00:40:58,780 Like the cost of compliance for me to actually verify who Daniel is, 1442 00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:01,869 which is a regulatory requirement. 1443 00:41:01,869 --> 00:41:02,670 Right. 1444 00:41:02,670 --> 00:41:07,768 It's it's it's it's a lot more expensive to do that in a number 1445 00:41:07,768 --> 00:41:12,388 of countries than it is in like the US or in India now or 1446 00:41:12,388 --> 00:41:16,769 in any of these other places where there's just better, 1447 00:41:16,769 --> 00:41:18,550 better sort of ID systems, 1448 00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:20,369 better address structure, 1449 00:41:20,369 --> 00:41:21,139 better like, 1450 00:41:21,139 --> 00:41:21,559 you know, 1451 00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:22,489 all this stuff. 1452 00:41:22,489 --> 00:41:22,849 Right. 1453 00:41:22,849 --> 00:41:25,769 So I think like I think that, 1454 00:41:25,769 --> 00:41:26,530 you know, 1455 00:41:26,530 --> 00:41:28,260 it's one of those things that, 1456 00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:28,900 you know, 1457 00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:30,400 in five to 10 years, 1458 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,320 I would not I would not preclude us from, 1459 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,130 you know, 1460 00:41:34,130 --> 00:41:35,570 doing it again or, 1461 00:41:35,570 --> 00:41:36,380 you know, 1462 00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:38,449 having another go at it. 1463 00:41:38,449 --> 00:41:40,170 But I just I don't see it. 1464 00:41:40,170 --> 00:41:46,570 I don't see it being possible on its own right now. 1465 00:41:46,570 --> 00:41:51,139 And the reality is once you start doing B2B, 1466 00:41:51,139 --> 00:41:53,250 it is a lot smoother. 1467 00:41:53,250 --> 00:41:55,929 You make a lot more money. 1468 00:41:55,929 --> 00:41:59,530 It's like it's tough to just not focus your time and resources on it. 1469 00:41:59,530 --> 00:42:00,170 You know, 1470 00:42:00,170 --> 00:42:01,210 to your point. 1471 00:42:01,210 --> 00:42:01,670 I mean, 1472 00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:02,130 you know, 1473 00:42:02,130 --> 00:42:02,650 look, 1474 00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:02,889 consumers. 1475 00:42:02,889 --> 00:42:03,420 I mean, 1476 00:42:03,420 --> 00:42:04,559 with consumers, 1477 00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:04,820 man, 1478 00:42:04,820 --> 00:42:05,340 I mean, 1479 00:42:05,340 --> 00:42:11,230 like the guy that does $5 will cause you so many more problems than the business that does $500, 1480 00:42:11,099 --> 00:42:12,090 000. 1481 00:42:12,090 --> 00:42:13,409 Yeah. 1482 00:42:13,409 --> 00:42:14,820 Like our average year. 1483 00:42:14,820 --> 00:42:15,579 Yeah. 1484 00:42:15,579 --> 00:42:20,409 We have like a like a store owner who like their gas station might have like, 1485 00:42:20,409 --> 00:42:21,250 I don't know, 1486 00:42:21,250 --> 00:42:22,090 like 30, 1487 00:42:21,949 --> 00:42:23,969 000 monthly revenue. 1488 00:42:23,969 --> 00:42:31,929 And they might give us more headache than like a store owner that has like 50 stores doing like three X that for each location. 1489 00:42:31,929 --> 00:42:34,730 Like it's crazy the way that works. 1490 00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:44,449 I would love to like see a study on like why that is. 1491 00:42:44,449 --> 00:42:44,799 I don't I guess I mean, 1492 00:42:44,809 --> 00:42:45,289 it's because like for that customer, 1493 00:42:45,289 --> 00:42:48,139 that $5 means a lot more than like than the $500, 1494 00:42:48,019 --> 00:42:50,010 000 in business. 1495 00:42:50,010 --> 00:42:50,840 I think that that's I mean, 1496 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,409 that's probably part of it. 1497 00:42:52,409 --> 00:42:52,730 Yeah. 1498 00:42:52,730 --> 00:42:53,809 Yeah. 1499 00:42:53,809 --> 00:42:59,409 I mean that the small customers would give us so much more trouble. 1500 00:42:59,409 --> 00:43:00,940 Like if there was any issue, 1501 00:43:00,940 --> 00:43:02,309 if a payment was delayed, 1502 00:43:02,309 --> 00:43:03,440 anything like that, 1503 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,849 we'd have people report us to the police and say like the company is scamming people. 1504 00:43:08,849 --> 00:43:09,329 Yeah. 1505 00:43:09,329 --> 00:43:11,280 And like and like it just it becomes a headache, 1506 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:11,730 right? 1507 00:43:11,730 --> 00:43:12,139 So like, 1508 00:43:12,139 --> 00:43:12,610 you know, 1509 00:43:12,610 --> 00:43:13,239 for example, 1510 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,630 in some countries in Zambia, 1511 00:43:15,630 --> 00:43:16,869 for example, 1512 00:43:16,869 --> 00:43:24,329 if you like any police officer in any precinct in the country is able to freeze a bank account, 1513 00:43:24,329 --> 00:43:32,250 which is a wild power like that is too much power for a random cop to really be able to have. 1514 00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:32,849 Yeah. 1515 00:43:32,849 --> 00:43:33,360 Like, 1516 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,539 imagine if like I could walk in to like my local police precinct, 1517 00:43:38,539 --> 00:43:39,440 you know, 1518 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:40,920 in Louisiana, 1519 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,489 and I could tell them, 1520 00:43:42,489 --> 00:43:43,320 you know, 1521 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:43,679 oh, 1522 00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:49,289 Daniel's company in New York or JP Morgan in New York is scamming me. 1523 00:43:49,289 --> 00:43:52,530 And they could just freeze JP Morgan, 1524 00:43:52,530 --> 00:43:53,449 right? 1525 00:43:53,449 --> 00:43:54,239 Which is I mean, 1526 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:54,739 you know, 1527 00:43:54,739 --> 00:43:55,139 like, 1528 00:43:55,139 --> 00:43:57,280 that's essentially what was happening. 1529 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:57,730 Right. 1530 00:43:57,730 --> 00:43:58,239 And like, 1531 00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:58,630 I mean, 1532 00:43:58,630 --> 00:44:03,920 so we would have people complain about like a $5 transaction. 1533 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:04,360 You know, 1534 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:04,610 oh, 1535 00:44:04,610 --> 00:44:04,920 like, 1536 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,500 I didn't receive my payment instead of calling customer support, 1537 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:12,099 going to the police and saying that we scammed them, 1538 00:44:12,099 --> 00:44:14,119 filing a police report. 1539 00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:17,030 The police officer in this village has never heard of us. 1540 00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:17,960 So they just assume, 1541 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:18,179 oh, 1542 00:44:18,179 --> 00:44:18,510 well, 1543 00:44:18,510 --> 00:44:21,440 this must be like a Ponzi scheme or something. 1544 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:22,739 So they're calling the bank, 1545 00:44:22,739 --> 00:44:23,829 freeze the account. 1546 00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:25,469 It's a Ponzi scheme. 1547 00:44:25,469 --> 00:44:32,050 And so now like our entire operation in the country has ground to a halt for two days, 1548 00:44:32,050 --> 00:44:33,199 because you know, 1549 00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:37,949 some guy thought we were scamming him out of $5 when he just didn't call support, 1550 00:44:37,949 --> 00:44:38,579 you know, 1551 00:44:38,579 --> 00:44:39,780 because it so like, 1552 00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:41,400 it's like stuff like that, 1553 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:42,090 right? 1554 00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:46,599 It just it makes it so much more difficult versus like with with businesses, 1555 00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:47,210 you know, 1556 00:44:47,210 --> 00:44:48,340 we serve I mean, 1557 00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:50,780 in terms of like large businesses, 1558 00:44:50,780 --> 00:44:51,510 we serve, 1559 00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:52,230 you know, 1560 00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:52,789 I mean, 1561 00:44:52,789 --> 00:44:53,360 what, 1562 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,449 like 400 large businesses. 1563 00:44:56,449 --> 00:44:58,369 And it's just that it's just so much easier, 1564 00:44:58,369 --> 00:44:58,789 right? 1565 00:44:58,789 --> 00:45:01,219 Because they know how to deal with this stuff. 1566 00:45:01,219 --> 00:45:01,840 If something is wrong, 1567 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:02,059 like, 1568 00:45:02,059 --> 00:45:04,800 I'm not saying they're gonna be happy if something's delayed, 1569 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,139 or if something's wrong, 1570 00:45:06,139 --> 00:45:08,090 but they know how to deal with it. 1571 00:45:08,090 --> 00:45:09,420 And so it's just Yeah, 1572 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:10,610 it's just so much. 1573 00:45:10,610 --> 00:45:12,159 It's just so different. 1574 00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:14,090 Like dealing with it too. 1575 00:45:14,090 --> 00:45:20,230 And and I think I think that there are some fundamental there like things that need to fundamentally change, 1576 00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:20,639 right, 1577 00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:22,860 like ID infrastructure and things like that, 1578 00:45:22,860 --> 00:45:25,559 that need to change in a lot of parts of like Africa, 1579 00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:26,289 and you know, 1580 00:45:26,289 --> 00:45:37,809 certain other parts of the world that we were doing business in before a pure retail exchange akin to like a coin basis is truly possible. 1581 00:45:37,809 --> 00:45:45,730 Was it primarily regulatory burden or fraud or something else that made consumers so difficult or was it just that b2b was so much more lucrative? 1582 00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:48,409 Was there like a primary reason? 1583 00:45:48,409 --> 00:45:56,530 It was so regulatory in the sense of like, 1584 00:45:56,530 --> 00:45:58,190 we have to do KYC, 1585 00:45:58,190 --> 00:46:01,670 we have to do screenings on these customers. 1586 00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:03,650 So not necessarily local regulatory, 1587 00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:04,139 right? 1588 00:46:04,139 --> 00:46:05,570 Like in some countries, 1589 00:46:05,570 --> 00:46:09,579 there's not necessarily hard laws around KYC, 1590 00:46:09,579 --> 00:46:10,079 AML, 1591 00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:11,780 things like that. 1592 00:46:11,780 --> 00:46:14,329 But there are global standards, 1593 00:46:14,329 --> 00:46:14,699 right? 1594 00:46:14,699 --> 00:46:15,940 And we're a US company, 1595 00:46:15,940 --> 00:46:17,530 we have to follow US standards, 1596 00:46:17,530 --> 00:46:18,329 I'm a US citizen, 1597 00:46:18,329 --> 00:46:21,050 my heavy preference is not to be in federal prison. 1598 00:46:21,050 --> 00:46:21,780 So we follow, 1599 00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:22,309 you know, 1600 00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:24,550 sanctions and things like that, 1601 00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:25,289 right. 1602 00:46:25,289 --> 00:46:26,349 And so like, 1603 00:46:26,349 --> 00:46:27,769 with all of that, 1604 00:46:27,769 --> 00:46:28,340 like, 1605 00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:34,929 there's just there's so much work involved in doing that, 1606 00:46:34,929 --> 00:46:39,239 in these parts of the world. 1607 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:39,750 Whereas in the US, 1608 00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:42,480 it's actually quite easy for me to verify, 1609 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:43,789 like who Daniel is, 1610 00:46:43,789 --> 00:46:46,769 if Daniel signs up for an account as an American, 1611 00:46:46,769 --> 00:46:47,110 like, 1612 00:46:47,110 --> 00:46:47,960 it's quite easy, 1613 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,690 you have a social security number, 1614 00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:53,630 you have an ID that's linked to like an authority that's trustworthy, 1615 00:46:53,630 --> 00:46:54,010 yada, 1616 00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:54,389 yada, 1617 00:46:54,389 --> 00:46:54,769 yada, 1618 00:46:54,769 --> 00:46:55,409 right? 1619 00:46:55,409 --> 00:46:55,690 I mean, 1620 00:46:55,690 --> 00:46:57,820 like we in some countries, 1621 00:46:57,820 --> 00:46:58,650 you know, 1622 00:46:58,650 --> 00:46:59,849 we found that, 1623 00:46:59,849 --> 00:47:00,489 I mean, 1624 00:47:00,489 --> 00:47:01,500 you know, 1625 00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:03,050 we found that like, 1626 00:47:03,050 --> 00:47:06,610 the same person could have the equivalent of like, 1627 00:47:06,610 --> 00:47:09,199 20 social security numbers, 1628 00:47:09,199 --> 00:47:14,530 because you could just go to these ID authorities and pay them to issue you a new identity. 1629 00:47:14,530 --> 00:47:14,969 Right? 1630 00:47:14,969 --> 00:47:15,300 Like, 1631 00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:17,010 if Daniel works at the ID authority, 1632 00:47:17,010 --> 00:47:18,809 I don't have to bribe the ID authority, 1633 00:47:18,809 --> 00:47:19,969 I just got to bribe Daniel. 1634 00:47:19,969 --> 00:47:24,480 That's enough time in countries like that to know, 1635 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:24,989 like, 1636 00:47:24,989 --> 00:47:27,369 you just can't count on it. 1637 00:47:27,369 --> 00:47:27,719 Like, 1638 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,570 we take our order and peace for granted here in the US. 1639 00:47:30,570 --> 00:47:31,570 Yes, 1640 00:47:31,570 --> 00:47:34,610 we take the fact that everybody has one social security number for granted, 1641 00:47:34,610 --> 00:47:35,090 right? 1642 00:47:35,090 --> 00:47:38,809 When you're verifying people based on social security number. 1643 00:47:38,809 --> 00:47:39,480 And so like, 1644 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:39,860 it's, 1645 00:47:39,860 --> 00:47:40,449 you know, 1646 00:47:40,449 --> 00:47:41,440 it's stuff like that, 1647 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:41,980 right? 1648 00:47:41,980 --> 00:47:46,130 Where it just it becomes quite difficult to actually do these screenings at scale, 1649 00:47:46,130 --> 00:47:48,650 to be able to verify people's identities, 1650 00:47:48,650 --> 00:47:49,849 things like that. 1651 00:47:49,849 --> 00:47:51,659 It's also a lot of it becomes manual, 1652 00:47:51,659 --> 00:47:52,250 right? 1653 00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:52,769 I mean, 1654 00:47:52,769 --> 00:47:54,130 you end up with just, 1655 00:47:54,130 --> 00:47:54,809 you know, 1656 00:47:54,809 --> 00:47:57,860 a lot of people have the same name as like somebody that, 1657 00:47:57,860 --> 00:47:58,420 you know, 1658 00:47:58,420 --> 00:47:59,300 scam somebody, 1659 00:47:59,300 --> 00:47:59,679 like, 1660 00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:02,139 so many people have the same name, 1661 00:48:02,139 --> 00:48:02,570 man, 1662 00:48:02,570 --> 00:48:03,079 like, 1663 00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:03,619 like, 1664 00:48:03,619 --> 00:48:04,440 it's just, 1665 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:05,309 it's just, 1666 00:48:05,309 --> 00:48:06,809 it's difficult. 1667 00:48:06,809 --> 00:48:07,900 It's time consuming. 1668 00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:09,769 And it's resource intensive. 1669 00:48:09,769 --> 00:48:11,530 We had to have a massive compliance team, 1670 00:48:11,530 --> 00:48:13,269 we had to have all this tooling, 1671 00:48:13,269 --> 00:48:14,980 we had to have all this stuff. 1672 00:48:14,980 --> 00:48:15,739 And the thing is, 1673 00:48:15,739 --> 00:48:16,760 is that's all fine. 1674 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,929 If your Coinbase and your customer on average is doing a couple hundred bucks, 1675 00:48:20,929 --> 00:48:21,699 right? 1676 00:48:21,699 --> 00:48:24,940 If your customer on average is doing like $15, 1677 00:48:24,940 --> 00:48:28,590 it doesn't work out the math just doesn't math. 1678 00:48:28,590 --> 00:48:29,489 Just doesn't math. 1679 00:48:29,489 --> 00:48:29,789 Yeah, 1680 00:48:29,789 --> 00:48:30,639 that makes sense. 1681 00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:30,949 Well, 1682 00:48:30,949 --> 00:48:31,340 that's, 1683 00:48:31,340 --> 00:48:34,809 that's a pretty drastic change from the business you had when like, 1684 00:48:34,809 --> 00:48:35,440 you know, 1685 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,489 you and I first started chatting back in 2020. 1686 00:48:38,489 --> 00:48:39,429 Very different mission, 1687 00:48:39,429 --> 00:48:40,440 very different approach, 1688 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,690 but I bet you guys are making a whole lot more money. 1689 00:48:42,690 --> 00:48:43,530 How has like, 1690 00:48:43,530 --> 00:48:44,789 how things changed, 1691 00:48:44,789 --> 00:48:48,489 like with how much capital you've raised with all these rounds, 1692 00:48:48,489 --> 00:48:54,019 I think the last round was series C and you raise something like 88 million in total venture capital. 1693 00:48:54,019 --> 00:48:55,929 Does that sound right? 1694 00:48:55,929 --> 00:48:58,039 We raised 33 in the C, 1695 00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:00,210 I think 80 is the like, 1696 00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:01,719 total overall cumulative, 1697 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:02,079 yeah, 1698 00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:03,489 cumulative amount. 1699 00:49:03,489 --> 00:49:04,489 Yes. 1700 00:49:04,489 --> 00:49:05,190 And so, 1701 00:49:05,190 --> 00:49:05,800 yeah, 1702 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:06,559 I mean, 1703 00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:07,119 look, 1704 00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:08,489 I can tell you, 1705 00:49:08,489 --> 00:49:10,889 it makes it a lot more fun. 1706 00:49:10,889 --> 00:49:14,010 I remember when we raised our series A, 1707 00:49:14,010 --> 00:49:16,280 like after like two months, 1708 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:17,280 I was like, 1709 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:17,739 oh, 1710 00:49:17,739 --> 00:49:18,130 wow, 1711 00:49:18,130 --> 00:49:22,130 this is so much better than not having money. 1712 00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:22,730 You get to, 1713 00:49:22,730 --> 00:49:23,269 you know, 1714 00:49:23,269 --> 00:49:24,289 you get to do more, 1715 00:49:24,289 --> 00:49:24,690 you get to, 1716 00:49:24,690 --> 00:49:25,059 you know, 1717 00:49:25,059 --> 00:49:25,570 there's just, 1718 00:49:25,570 --> 00:49:26,969 there's more things that you get to do. 1719 00:49:26,969 --> 00:49:28,530 There's more things that you get to invest in. 1720 00:49:28,530 --> 00:49:31,849 There's more sort of lines of business that you get to go down, 1721 00:49:31,849 --> 00:49:32,369 things like that. 1722 00:49:32,369 --> 00:49:33,949 I think at the same time, 1723 00:49:33,949 --> 00:49:34,929 like there is, 1724 00:49:34,929 --> 00:49:37,670 there is a trap with venture funding, 1725 00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:38,369 right? 1726 00:49:38,369 --> 00:49:40,110 Like on the same token, 1727 00:49:40,110 --> 00:49:40,929 right? 1728 00:49:40,929 --> 00:49:41,769 Where, 1729 00:49:41,769 --> 00:49:42,300 you know, 1730 00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:42,760 yes, 1731 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,090 it makes things more fun, 1732 00:49:44,090 --> 00:49:45,460 it makes things more exciting, 1733 00:49:45,460 --> 00:49:46,059 but you also, 1734 00:49:46,059 --> 00:49:48,469 it is also much easier to get stuck in this trap of like, 1735 00:49:48,469 --> 00:49:48,579 oh, 1736 00:49:48,579 --> 00:49:48,860 well, 1737 00:49:48,860 --> 00:49:50,449 we need to hire a bunch of people now. 1738 00:49:50,449 --> 00:49:51,039 We need to get, 1739 00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:51,599 you know, 1740 00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:55,099 bring in a bunch of like expensive people to do this and do that and, 1741 00:49:55,099 --> 00:49:55,809 you know, 1742 00:49:55,809 --> 00:49:56,809 things like that. 1743 00:49:56,809 --> 00:49:59,289 And I think that's one of the things that over the years we've been, 1744 00:49:59,289 --> 00:50:00,949 we've been trying to correct. 1745 00:50:00,949 --> 00:50:01,579 Right. 1746 00:50:01,579 --> 00:50:02,000 And, 1747 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:02,289 and, 1748 00:50:02,289 --> 00:50:02,960 you know, 1749 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,849 we haven't really increased the size of the team in what, 1750 00:50:06,849 --> 00:50:07,789 about two years now. 1751 00:50:07,789 --> 00:50:08,300 Right. 1752 00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:11,530 We haven't really increased the size of the team we cycle. 1753 00:50:11,530 --> 00:50:12,289 So like, 1754 00:50:12,289 --> 00:50:13,059 you know, 1755 00:50:13,059 --> 00:50:14,059 we've moved on, 1756 00:50:14,059 --> 00:50:14,599 like, 1757 00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:15,539 for example, 1758 00:50:15,539 --> 00:50:19,170 we had like 60 people on the customer support team. 1759 00:50:19,170 --> 00:50:19,699 Right. 1760 00:50:19,699 --> 00:50:20,159 And so, 1761 00:50:20,159 --> 00:50:20,840 you know, 1762 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,010 that team is now maybe 15 people. 1763 00:50:23,010 --> 00:50:23,349 And so, 1764 00:50:23,349 --> 00:50:23,809 you know, 1765 00:50:23,809 --> 00:50:24,570 those people, 1766 00:50:24,570 --> 00:50:24,969 you know, 1767 00:50:24,969 --> 00:50:28,889 like that headcount got rehired and redistributed to other parts of the org. 1768 00:50:28,889 --> 00:50:29,920 But overall, 1769 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:30,909 I think that, 1770 00:50:30,909 --> 00:50:31,690 you know, 1771 00:50:31,690 --> 00:50:36,039 one thing that has become much more important to me, 1772 00:50:36,039 --> 00:50:43,010 and I wish we had focused on earlier is like revenue per employee. 1773 00:50:43,010 --> 00:50:44,269 I think matters a lot now. 1774 00:50:44,269 --> 00:50:45,829 And I think with the advent of AI, 1775 00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:49,550 it's only going to matter more and more because you can do more with less, 1776 00:50:49,550 --> 00:50:50,159 right. 1777 00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:51,929 You can do more with less people. 1778 00:50:51,929 --> 00:50:53,980 So revenue per employee, 1779 00:50:53,980 --> 00:50:55,480 I think matters. 1780 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:56,309 And then, 1781 00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:56,860 like, 1782 00:50:56,860 --> 00:51:00,519 making sure that you're making sure that you have, 1783 00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:01,090 you know, 1784 00:51:01,090 --> 00:51:03,610 the right people in the right positions that, 1785 00:51:03,610 --> 00:51:04,179 you know, 1786 00:51:04,179 --> 00:51:06,820 really care about the job is, 1787 00:51:06,820 --> 00:51:08,329 is critical. 1788 00:51:08,329 --> 00:51:10,079 And as the company grows, 1789 00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:13,809 it becomes so much harder to weed that out. 1790 00:51:13,809 --> 00:51:14,349 Right. 1791 00:51:14,349 --> 00:51:15,090 And I think, 1792 00:51:15,090 --> 00:51:15,570 I mean, 1793 00:51:15,570 --> 00:51:15,960 like, 1794 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:16,809 my general, 1795 00:51:16,809 --> 00:51:20,050 my general opinion on this, 1796 00:51:20,050 --> 00:51:20,809 and I think, 1797 00:51:20,809 --> 00:51:21,329 you know, 1798 00:51:21,329 --> 00:51:23,579 I think this goes for any public company, 1799 00:51:23,579 --> 00:51:26,409 any private company over, 1800 00:51:26,409 --> 00:51:27,170 I don't know, 1801 00:51:27,170 --> 00:51:27,760 call it like, 1802 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,199 probably 100 people, 1803 00:51:29,199 --> 00:51:29,710 but like, 1804 00:51:29,710 --> 00:51:30,219 you know, 1805 00:51:30,219 --> 00:51:32,929 maybe even below 100 people. 1806 00:51:32,929 --> 00:51:34,619 I think that in general, 1807 00:51:34,619 --> 00:51:35,289 in tech, 1808 00:51:35,289 --> 00:51:39,210 all of these companies are at least 20% overhired. 1809 00:51:39,210 --> 00:51:40,019 And I think good, 1810 00:51:40,019 --> 00:51:42,320 good companies are 20% overhired, 1811 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:49,429 like really good companies like Amazon is probably 20% overhired and Amazon runs a tight-ass ship. 1812 00:51:49,429 --> 00:51:50,150 Right. 1813 00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:53,449 The bad ones are like multitudes overhired. 1814 00:51:53,449 --> 00:51:53,900 Right. 1815 00:51:53,900 --> 00:51:57,199 And I don't want to throw any specific companies under the bus, 1816 00:51:57,199 --> 00:52:04,369 but there are a lot of like big public companies that we have worked with that have tens of thousands of employees. 1817 00:52:04,369 --> 00:52:10,889 And I guarantee you could cut more than 50% of them tomorrow and not a single thing would change. 1818 00:52:10,889 --> 00:52:11,559 Right. 1819 00:52:11,559 --> 00:52:16,099 And that's something like for any company over a hundred ish people, 1820 00:52:16,099 --> 00:52:18,199 that's something that I always like, 1821 00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:20,869 I always tell people that you need to like, 1822 00:52:20,869 --> 00:52:24,473 you need to keep in mind is like the company's always going 1823 00:52:24,473 --> 00:52:28,196 to be a little overhired and being a little overhired is fine 1824 00:52:28,196 --> 00:52:31,559 because then you have redundancy and if somebody leaves, 1825 00:52:31,559 --> 00:52:34,250 it's not like you're scrambling to find a replacement. 1826 00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:34,570 So like, 1827 00:52:34,570 --> 00:52:34,769 you know, 1828 00:52:34,769 --> 00:52:36,010 you want to be a little, 1829 00:52:36,010 --> 00:52:37,570 you want to have some buffer, 1830 00:52:37,570 --> 00:52:39,760 but like some of these companies are, 1831 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,769 I mean like two X overhired. 1832 00:52:41,769 --> 00:52:42,050 Right. 1833 00:52:42,050 --> 00:52:45,329 Some of these companies are 50 to 80% overhired. 1834 00:52:45,329 --> 00:52:46,099 And that is, 1835 00:52:46,099 --> 00:52:50,369 that is when it becomes just a waste of money and a waste of resources. 1836 00:52:50,369 --> 00:52:51,369 Yeah. 1837 00:52:51,369 --> 00:52:53,829 I feel like the average company, 1838 00:52:53,829 --> 00:52:59,010 like more than 500 people is like 50 to 80% overhired. 1839 00:52:59,010 --> 00:52:59,789 The average, 1840 00:52:59,789 --> 00:53:00,170 yes. 1841 00:53:00,170 --> 00:53:01,079 That's right. 1842 00:53:01,079 --> 00:53:03,010 Like if you're 20% overhired, 1843 00:53:03,010 --> 00:53:03,530 that's, 1844 00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:06,460 I think you're running a good ass company. 1845 00:53:06,460 --> 00:53:06,980 Right. 1846 00:53:06,980 --> 00:53:08,929 That is quite impressive. 1847 00:53:08,929 --> 00:53:10,929 If you have over a hundred people and you, 1848 00:53:10,929 --> 00:53:12,960 and you are only 20% overhired, 1849 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:13,480 that is, 1850 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,170 you are running a really impressive company in my opinion. 1851 00:53:17,170 --> 00:53:17,469 Right. 1852 00:53:17,469 --> 00:53:17,989 Cause you need, 1853 00:53:17,989 --> 00:53:18,579 you need a buffer, 1854 00:53:18,579 --> 00:53:19,280 you need a redundant, 1855 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,710 you need some redundancy, 1856 00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:22,590 but most of these companies, 1857 00:53:22,590 --> 00:53:23,260 right. 1858 00:53:23,260 --> 00:53:23,610 Are, 1859 00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:27,730 are definitely in like that 50 to 80% range. 1860 00:53:27,730 --> 00:53:29,539 So how do you view the trade-offs? 1861 00:53:29,539 --> 00:53:32,690 Like you'd mentioned some like being pressured to hire, 1862 00:53:32,690 --> 00:53:33,090 but like, 1863 00:53:33,090 --> 00:53:33,489 what are, 1864 00:53:33,489 --> 00:53:36,199 what about the other trade-offs you have with taking venture capital, 1865 00:53:36,199 --> 00:53:38,130 all these rounds from A to C, 1866 00:53:38,130 --> 00:53:38,929 from C to C, 1867 00:53:38,929 --> 00:53:43,210 like what are like some of the biggest things you compare nowadays? 1868 00:53:43,210 --> 00:53:45,659 Like when you're thinking about raising your next round and like, 1869 00:53:45,659 --> 00:53:56,050 what are the things you wish you'd known when taking that money before? 1870 00:53:56,050 --> 00:53:57,679 You know, 1871 00:53:57,679 --> 00:53:59,670 in general, 1872 00:53:59,670 --> 00:54:15,289 I think we've had a very good sort of run and experience with the people that we have taken money from that we work with closely that are on our board, 1873 00:54:15,289 --> 00:54:17,010 all of that. 1874 00:54:17,010 --> 00:54:18,360 So I am not, 1875 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:26,099 I'm not in the camp of being able to talk to you about like the horror stories of VC, 1876 00:54:26,099 --> 00:54:26,769 you know, 1877 00:54:26,769 --> 00:54:30,360 knock on wood that that continues into the future. 1878 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:30,489 Right? 1879 00:54:30,489 --> 00:54:31,250 Cause I mean, 1880 00:54:31,250 --> 00:54:31,630 look, 1881 00:54:31,630 --> 00:54:32,030 I mean, 1882 00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:33,760 I've heard some horror stories, 1883 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:34,329 right? 1884 00:54:34,329 --> 00:54:34,820 I mean, 1885 00:54:34,820 --> 00:54:35,030 I, 1886 00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:35,690 you know, 1887 00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:36,079 one of, 1888 00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:36,639 one of the, 1889 00:54:36,639 --> 00:54:37,659 one of the guys that, 1890 00:54:37,659 --> 00:54:38,170 you know, 1891 00:54:38,170 --> 00:54:41,550 was that I was quite close with when we were starting out was, 1892 00:54:41,550 --> 00:54:42,170 you know, 1893 00:54:42,170 --> 00:54:43,880 kicked out of his company and, 1894 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:44,210 and, 1895 00:54:44,210 --> 00:54:44,809 you know, 1896 00:54:44,809 --> 00:54:46,090 had all these issues. 1897 00:54:46,090 --> 00:54:48,179 The VCs wanted to take it a totally different direction. 1898 00:54:48,179 --> 00:54:48,590 It's like, 1899 00:54:48,590 --> 00:54:48,840 well, 1900 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,469 what the hell did you guys invest in? 1901 00:54:50,469 --> 00:54:51,429 If you want to change, 1902 00:54:51,429 --> 00:54:51,780 like, 1903 00:54:51,780 --> 00:54:53,250 why did you invest in the company? 1904 00:54:53,250 --> 00:54:54,980 If you want us to change the business model, 1905 00:54:54,980 --> 00:54:55,170 right? 1906 00:54:55,170 --> 00:54:55,889 I'm not doing that. 1907 00:54:55,889 --> 00:54:56,130 Like, 1908 00:54:56,130 --> 00:54:57,489 you'll have to kick me out. 1909 00:54:57,489 --> 00:54:58,500 And then, 1910 00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:01,630 so they kicked him out and like, 1911 00:55:01,630 --> 00:55:02,639 and by the way, 1912 00:55:02,639 --> 00:55:05,469 those guys went on and started the same idea, 1913 00:55:05,469 --> 00:55:06,250 but like, 1914 00:55:06,250 --> 00:55:07,050 you know, 1915 00:55:07,050 --> 00:55:11,570 on their own without the VCs and turned it into a $2 billion company. 1916 00:55:11,570 --> 00:55:13,889 So it turns out they were right. 1917 00:55:13,889 --> 00:55:14,940 But yeah, 1918 00:55:14,940 --> 00:55:15,840 it's, 1919 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:16,730 you know, 1920 00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:17,730 there are, 1921 00:55:17,730 --> 00:55:18,260 yeah, 1922 00:55:18,260 --> 00:55:18,719 I mean, 1923 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:19,800 there's like, 1924 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:20,849 there's so many, 1925 00:55:20,849 --> 00:55:23,010 there's so many examples of that. 1926 00:55:23,010 --> 00:55:25,380 I don't really understand it. 1927 00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:31,250 I don't really understand the thought process behind it. 1928 00:55:31,250 --> 00:55:32,780 I don't know. 1929 00:55:32,780 --> 00:55:33,030 So, 1930 00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:33,619 but like, 1931 00:55:33,619 --> 00:55:34,119 I can't, 1932 00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:36,289 I really can't speak to that though. 1933 00:55:36,289 --> 00:55:37,079 I think, 1934 00:55:37,079 --> 00:55:37,570 you know, 1935 00:55:37,570 --> 00:55:38,409 in general, 1936 00:55:38,409 --> 00:55:42,340 we've had a very good run with the people that we work with. 1937 00:55:42,340 --> 00:55:43,489 They've been extremely helpful. 1938 00:55:43,489 --> 00:55:45,289 They've been hands-on when we need them to be. 1939 00:55:45,289 --> 00:55:46,690 They've been hands-off when we, 1940 00:55:46,690 --> 00:55:47,079 you know, 1941 00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:49,920 are like heads down trying to build something and, 1942 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:50,510 you know, 1943 00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:51,070 working. 1944 00:55:51,070 --> 00:55:54,570 They're not overbearing in terms of like what they need. 1945 00:55:54,570 --> 00:55:55,079 But they also, 1946 00:55:55,079 --> 00:55:55,429 you know, 1947 00:55:55,429 --> 00:55:57,829 keep us accountable and keep us honest. 1948 00:55:57,829 --> 00:55:58,809 And so, 1949 00:55:58,809 --> 00:55:59,650 yeah, 1950 00:55:59,650 --> 00:56:03,050 I think like the reality is, 1951 00:56:03,050 --> 00:56:04,820 I think it just comes down to people, 1952 00:56:04,820 --> 00:56:05,449 right? 1953 00:56:05,449 --> 00:56:08,219 It really just comes down to the people. 1954 00:56:08,219 --> 00:56:11,019 And if you are taking money from somebody, 1955 00:56:11,019 --> 00:56:11,650 you know, 1956 00:56:11,650 --> 00:56:12,150 look, 1957 00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:14,340 this is what I tell people is like, 1958 00:56:14,340 --> 00:56:16,650 if you're taking money from somebody, 1959 00:56:16,650 --> 00:56:17,590 like some people, 1960 00:56:17,590 --> 00:56:19,250 people compare it to a marriage, 1961 00:56:19,250 --> 00:56:19,789 right? 1962 00:56:19,789 --> 00:56:20,289 And like, 1963 00:56:20,289 --> 00:56:21,050 I mean, 1964 00:56:21,050 --> 00:56:21,619 that's like, 1965 00:56:21,619 --> 00:56:22,239 I guess, 1966 00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:23,170 kind of true. 1967 00:56:23,170 --> 00:56:23,769 But like, 1968 00:56:23,769 --> 00:56:24,429 in theory, 1969 00:56:24,429 --> 00:56:25,809 I could leave my wife. 1970 00:56:25,809 --> 00:56:28,639 Like I can't leave the investors, 1971 00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:29,489 right? 1972 00:56:29,489 --> 00:56:30,769 Like they will sue my ass. 1973 00:56:30,769 --> 00:56:31,329 They will like, 1974 00:56:31,329 --> 00:56:31,760 you know, 1975 00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,889 it is much more legally binding than a marriage. 1976 00:56:34,889 --> 00:56:35,210 And so, 1977 00:56:35,210 --> 00:56:35,480 it's, 1978 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:35,840 I mean, 1979 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,369 it is deeper than like a marriage, 1980 00:56:37,369 --> 00:56:37,900 right? 1981 00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:38,460 It's like, 1982 00:56:38,460 --> 00:56:38,829 yeah, 1983 00:56:38,829 --> 00:56:42,440 it's like you are taking money from these people and you are agreeing that like, 1984 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:42,909 you know, 1985 00:56:42,909 --> 00:56:46,599 you are going to do everything in your power to win a return for them, 1986 00:56:46,599 --> 00:56:47,190 right? 1987 00:56:47,190 --> 00:56:47,719 I mean, 1988 00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,420 that's essentially the, 1989 00:56:49,420 --> 00:56:50,030 you know, 1990 00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:51,050 the agreement. 1991 00:56:51,050 --> 00:56:51,809 And so, 1992 00:56:51,809 --> 00:56:52,300 yeah, 1993 00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:53,260 it's like, 1994 00:56:53,260 --> 00:57:04,929 it really comes down to like who you're working with and making sure that you're working with good people that are going to understand the ups and downs, 1995 00:57:04,929 --> 00:57:06,559 that are going to understand, 1996 00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:07,119 you know, 1997 00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:09,849 what it's actually like in the operator's scene. 1998 00:57:09,860 --> 00:57:21,179 Because I think like the thing that does annoy me when I see it is like the investors that sort of think that they always know better than the founder, 1999 00:57:21,179 --> 00:57:22,300 than the company, 2000 00:57:22,300 --> 00:57:22,909 right? 2001 00:57:22,909 --> 00:57:23,610 And like, 2002 00:57:23,710 --> 00:57:24,860 we just don't have that. 2003 00:57:24,860 --> 00:57:28,239 We've been very fortunate not to have that with like our board, 2004 00:57:28,239 --> 00:57:29,650 with our team. 2005 00:57:29,650 --> 00:57:30,099 But like, 2006 00:57:30,099 --> 00:57:30,550 you know, 2007 00:57:30,550 --> 00:57:30,849 it's, 2008 00:57:30,849 --> 00:57:31,260 I mean, 2009 00:57:31,260 --> 00:57:35,550 it's so much easier to advise a hundred companies than it is to run one, 2010 00:57:35,550 --> 00:57:36,210 right? 2011 00:57:36,210 --> 00:57:37,099 So like, 2012 00:57:37,099 --> 00:57:40,289 you need to understand those ups and downs. 2013 00:57:40,289 --> 00:57:42,239 You need to understand the ebbs and flows. 2014 00:57:42,239 --> 00:57:45,659 You need to understand that like every month is not going to be up, 2015 00:57:45,659 --> 00:57:47,510 but if the general trend is, 2016 00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:47,969 then, 2017 00:57:47,969 --> 00:57:48,659 you know, 2018 00:57:48,659 --> 00:57:49,760 fantastic. 2019 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:50,320 And I think, 2020 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:50,690 yeah, 2021 00:57:50,690 --> 00:57:54,929 making sure that you find the right people that are thinking about it long term, 2022 00:57:54,929 --> 00:57:55,500 that's, 2023 00:57:55,500 --> 00:57:57,170 that's critical. 2024 00:57:57,170 --> 00:58:03,219 What do you wish you had known before you had raised venture capital in terms of like your responsibilities? 2025 00:58:03,219 --> 00:58:03,480 Like, 2026 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,260 was there anything that you would like, 2027 00:58:05,260 --> 00:58:09,099 you would suggest young founders raising capital for the first time to like, 2028 00:58:09,099 --> 00:58:17,170 no eyes wide open the first time? 2029 00:58:17,170 --> 00:58:19,130 You don't actually need it. 2030 00:58:19,130 --> 00:58:20,130 Yeah. 2031 00:58:20,130 --> 00:58:21,130 Yeah. 2032 00:58:21,130 --> 00:58:22,150 Yeah. 2033 00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:23,199 I mean, 2034 00:58:23,199 --> 00:58:24,030 like, 2035 00:58:24,030 --> 00:58:24,900 yeah, 2036 00:58:24,900 --> 00:58:26,210 I think, 2037 00:58:26,210 --> 00:58:26,730 I mean, 2038 00:58:26,730 --> 00:58:28,630 like you don't need it is, 2039 00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:29,289 I mean, 2040 00:58:29,289 --> 00:58:30,340 a bit facetious, 2041 00:58:30,340 --> 00:58:30,940 but it is, 2042 00:58:30,940 --> 00:58:32,530 it is true to some extent. 2043 00:58:32,530 --> 00:58:32,889 Right. 2044 00:58:32,889 --> 00:58:33,130 I mean, 2045 00:58:33,130 --> 00:58:35,099 I think when we were starting out, 2046 00:58:35,099 --> 00:58:36,099 you know, 2047 00:58:36,099 --> 00:58:45,610 I spent probably two years trying to raise our initial like seed round. 2048 00:58:45,610 --> 00:58:49,099 And if I, 2049 00:58:49,099 --> 00:58:51,420 if I had just taken those two years, 2050 00:58:51,420 --> 00:58:57,849 if I had taken all the time that was spent on like fundraising in those two years and just threw it into the business, 2051 00:58:57,849 --> 00:59:01,150 the business would have been a lot further along and the seed round would have taken, 2052 00:59:01,150 --> 00:59:01,530 you know, 2053 00:59:01,530 --> 00:59:02,809 a lot less time. 2054 00:59:02,809 --> 00:59:03,809 Yeah. 2055 00:59:03,809 --> 00:59:04,480 I still, 2056 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,320 I still remember like getting off a call and just being like, 2057 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,050 we're not going to raise money. 2058 00:59:10,050 --> 00:59:10,420 Like this is, 2059 00:59:10,420 --> 00:59:10,949 this is dumb. 2060 00:59:10,949 --> 00:59:14,730 I'm going around telling people we're going to sell magic internet money in Nigeria. 2061 00:59:14,730 --> 00:59:18,409 It's not the most investable idea in the world. 2062 00:59:18,409 --> 00:59:18,690 Like, 2063 00:59:18,690 --> 00:59:19,099 I like, 2064 00:59:19,099 --> 00:59:19,550 we're just, 2065 00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:20,969 we're not going to raise money. 2066 00:59:20,969 --> 00:59:23,570 I still like vividly remember getting off this call. 2067 00:59:23,570 --> 00:59:24,199 I was just like, 2068 00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:24,739 that's like, 2069 00:59:24,739 --> 00:59:25,929 we're not going to do this. 2070 00:59:25,929 --> 00:59:26,929 Magic internet money. 2071 00:59:26,929 --> 00:59:30,480 We're going to build a company that just works and like, 2072 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:31,539 we're going to, 2073 00:59:31,539 --> 00:59:33,849 we're going to make money. 2074 00:59:33,849 --> 00:59:34,380 Like, 2075 00:59:34,380 --> 00:59:34,900 you know, 2076 00:59:34,900 --> 00:59:36,300 what an insane idea. 2077 00:59:36,300 --> 00:59:36,710 Right. 2078 00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:37,539 And so like, 2079 00:59:37,539 --> 00:59:38,139 we just, 2080 00:59:38,139 --> 00:59:44,000 we started building something that we, 2081 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:45,579 we just like sort of shifted focus. 2082 00:59:45,579 --> 00:59:45,690 Right. 2083 00:59:45,690 --> 00:59:46,139 And it's like, 2084 00:59:46,139 --> 00:59:46,340 Hey, 2085 00:59:46,340 --> 00:59:46,519 look, 2086 00:59:46,519 --> 00:59:47,570 instead of like, 2087 00:59:47,570 --> 00:59:49,179 instead of focusing on like raising money, 2088 00:59:49,179 --> 00:59:50,489 let's just focus on building, 2089 00:59:50,489 --> 00:59:53,400 let's just focus on building, 2090 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:54,860 launch this, 2091 00:59:54,860 --> 00:59:55,949 you know, 2092 00:59:55,949 --> 00:59:57,699 make it work. 2093 00:59:57,699 --> 00:59:58,969 We did that. 2094 00:59:58,969 --> 01:00:00,309 We ended up, 2095 01:00:00,309 --> 01:00:01,599 we ended up in, 2096 01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:07,969 I mean like six figures of monthly revenue before actually raising our seed round. 2097 01:00:07,969 --> 01:00:08,969 That's great. 2098 01:00:08,969 --> 01:00:09,730 Like, 2099 01:00:09,730 --> 01:00:10,170 yeah, 2100 01:00:10,170 --> 01:00:13,480 because nobody would give us money. 2101 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:14,500 It was less, 2102 01:00:14,500 --> 01:00:16,309 it was less of like a, 2103 01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:17,679 it was less of like, 2104 01:00:17,679 --> 01:00:17,980 you know, 2105 01:00:17,980 --> 01:00:18,280 like, 2106 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:18,480 Oh, 2107 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:18,769 like, 2108 01:00:18,769 --> 01:00:18,980 no, 2109 01:00:18,980 --> 01:00:19,590 we got this. 2110 01:00:19,590 --> 01:00:20,429 It was more of like, 2111 01:00:20,429 --> 01:00:21,050 all right, 2112 01:00:21,050 --> 01:00:21,300 well, 2113 01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:22,289 nobody's given us money. 2114 01:00:22,289 --> 01:00:24,289 So I guess we're going to have to boost. 2115 01:00:24,289 --> 01:00:25,730 And frankly though, 2116 01:00:25,730 --> 01:00:29,530 that's the attitude that you should have is nobody don't count on it. 2117 01:00:29,530 --> 01:00:29,929 Yeah. 2118 01:00:29,929 --> 01:00:30,340 But it, 2119 01:00:30,340 --> 01:00:31,309 but the thing is, 2120 01:00:31,309 --> 01:00:31,699 is in, 2121 01:00:31,699 --> 01:00:32,480 in practice, 2122 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,170 it is so easy to count on now. 2123 01:00:34,170 --> 01:00:34,849 Right. 2124 01:00:34,849 --> 01:00:39,250 This advice really only applies outside of the U S where it's not. 2125 01:00:39,250 --> 01:00:39,730 Right. 2126 01:00:39,730 --> 01:00:41,730 If you're starting up a company in India, 2127 01:00:41,730 --> 01:00:42,010 Africa, 2128 01:00:42,010 --> 01:00:42,559 you know, 2129 01:00:42,559 --> 01:00:43,420 South America, 2130 01:00:43,420 --> 01:00:44,039 whatever, 2131 01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:47,889 then it is harder to actually raise that seed money. 2132 01:00:47,889 --> 01:00:48,650 But damn, 2133 01:00:48,650 --> 01:00:48,880 man, 2134 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:50,429 like in the U S now you can, 2135 01:00:50,429 --> 01:00:52,500 you can raise money for anything, 2136 01:00:52,500 --> 01:00:52,920 dog. 2137 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,050 You go walk down the street in San Francisco, 2138 01:00:55,050 --> 01:00:58,369 tell somebody you reinvented shoes and they'll give you a million dollars. 2139 01:00:58,369 --> 01:00:58,730 Like, 2140 01:00:58,730 --> 01:01:00,170 man, 2141 01:01:00,170 --> 01:01:01,639 I know you're not getting either. 2142 01:01:01,639 --> 01:01:02,650 It's pretty incredible. 2143 01:01:02,650 --> 01:01:06,130 Like us is the best place to do it. 2144 01:01:06,130 --> 01:01:06,610 So what, 2145 01:01:06,610 --> 01:01:09,489 how much did you raise for your seed? 2146 01:01:09,489 --> 01:01:16,340 1.1 0.5 for the seed. 2147 01:01:16,340 --> 01:01:24,460 What do you think the company would look like today if you'd never ever raised capital, 2148 01:01:24,460 --> 01:01:26,210 would you still be doing it running the company? 2149 01:01:26,210 --> 01:01:26,539 Like, 2150 01:01:26,539 --> 01:01:35,969 or would you've gotten too bored from like not having enough leverage and enough like money to take on opportunities for novel pivot points? 2151 01:01:35,969 --> 01:01:39,500 That's a good question. 2152 01:01:39,500 --> 01:01:46,309 I think the company would be smaller, 2153 01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:48,530 obviously. 2154 01:01:48,530 --> 01:01:48,679 Um, 2155 01:01:48,679 --> 01:01:53,460 we wouldn't have grown as fast and we wouldn't be growing as fast. 2156 01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:53,860 Um, 2157 01:01:53,860 --> 01:01:57,280 but I do believe that the company would have, 2158 01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,150 would end up in the same place, 2159 01:01:59,150 --> 01:02:02,210 just on a longer time horizon. 2160 01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:15,010 And I think that for any company that is going to raise money, 2161 01:02:15,010 --> 01:02:21,980 the point of the money should be to accelerate growth. 2162 01:02:21,980 --> 01:02:27,269 The money's not going to turn a business model that doesn't work into one that does. 2163 01:02:27,269 --> 01:02:33,940 And so I think the way that I see it is we would be trending in the same direction, 2164 01:02:33,940 --> 01:02:36,539 just smaller and probably not growing as quickly. 2165 01:02:36,539 --> 01:02:41,110 Do you think you'd be half the king metric that you have, 2166 01:02:41,110 --> 01:02:45,059 whether it's ARR or whatever transactions processed? 2167 01:02:45,059 --> 01:02:45,980 Do you think it'd be half? 2168 01:02:45,980 --> 01:02:47,139 Do you think it'd be a quarter? 2169 01:02:47,139 --> 01:02:50,139 Where do you think you'd be in terms of your main KPI? 2170 01:02:50,139 --> 01:02:54,889 And you don't have to show the number just like the number itself, 2171 01:02:54,889 --> 01:02:56,329 but just like ratio-wise, 2172 01:02:56,329 --> 01:02:58,599 how much further behind would you be, 2173 01:02:58,599 --> 01:02:59,159 you think? 2174 01:02:59,159 --> 01:03:10,109 And so that was sort of an impossible question because there are opportunities you can take. 2175 01:03:10,110 --> 01:03:12,500 I bet nobody's ever asked you this. 2176 01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:13,659 No, 2177 01:03:13,659 --> 01:03:19,480 we would be probably, 2178 01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,599 call it like six, 2179 01:03:23,599 --> 01:03:25,940 not six, 2180 01:03:25,940 --> 01:03:28,380 sorry. 2181 01:03:28,380 --> 01:03:34,500 We'd be probably 10 to 20% of the size that we are now. 2182 01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:37,769 We'd be probably one-tenth to one-fifth, 2183 01:03:37,769 --> 01:03:42,440 depending on a number of factors and things like that. 2184 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,610 But I think like, 2185 01:03:45,610 --> 01:03:46,900 yeah, 2186 01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:50,070 the thing is like, 2187 01:03:50,070 --> 01:03:51,440 we wouldn't have, 2188 01:03:51,440 --> 01:04:00,860 I don't think that we would have some of the big name partnerships that we've been able to land, 2189 01:04:00,860 --> 01:04:01,640 right? 2190 01:04:01,639 --> 01:04:04,400 Because I think the money, 2191 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,700 like raising money, 2192 01:04:06,699 --> 01:04:07,919 part of what it does, 2193 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:13,139 even outside of like any of like helping with growth and everything is it is a signal, 2194 01:04:13,139 --> 01:04:13,839 right? 2195 01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:15,140 If a company raises, 2196 01:04:15,139 --> 01:04:15,789 you know, 2197 01:04:15,789 --> 01:04:17,809 a hundred million dollar round, 2198 01:04:17,809 --> 01:04:18,529 it's like, 2199 01:04:18,530 --> 01:04:19,100 oh shit, 2200 01:04:19,099 --> 01:04:19,529 dude, 2201 01:04:19,530 --> 01:04:21,960 like those guys are- They're legit. 2202 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:22,960 Yeah. 2203 01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:24,039 They're the real thing. 2204 01:04:24,039 --> 01:04:29,279 Like there's definitely a signaling, 2205 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:30,440 right? 2206 01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:31,260 When you look at like, 2207 01:04:31,260 --> 01:04:31,670 I don't know, 2208 01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:33,889 when you look at like a company like Bridge or something, 2209 01:04:33,889 --> 01:04:34,259 right? 2210 01:04:34,260 --> 01:04:34,570 I mean, 2211 01:04:34,570 --> 01:04:39,970 they were actually quite small when Stripe acquired them, 2212 01:04:39,969 --> 01:04:40,599 right? 2213 01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:46,319 And they have now very much grown into the valuation that Stripe gave them. 2214 01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:50,300 And a large part of the reason for that is the fact that Stripe bought them, 2215 01:04:50,300 --> 01:04:50,720 right? 2216 01:04:50,719 --> 01:04:54,569 And like that additional publicity and like the, 2217 01:04:54,570 --> 01:04:56,180 how do you say, 2218 01:04:56,179 --> 01:05:01,359 getting the name out there and like the legitimacy that like the Stripe name added. 2219 01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:01,570 I mean, 2220 01:05:01,570 --> 01:05:03,810 those guys have absolutely crushed it, 2221 01:05:03,809 --> 01:05:04,420 you know, 2222 01:05:04,420 --> 01:05:06,139 this year as a result, 2223 01:05:06,139 --> 01:05:06,440 right? 2224 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,610 And do I think that they would have gotten there on their own? 2225 01:05:09,610 --> 01:05:09,990 Yeah, 2226 01:05:09,989 --> 01:05:10,649 probably, 2227 01:05:10,650 --> 01:05:13,150 but it certainly not on the same time horizon, 2228 01:05:13,150 --> 01:05:13,680 right? 2229 01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:14,139 And so like, 2230 01:05:14,139 --> 01:05:14,480 I think, 2231 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:14,730 like, 2232 01:05:14,730 --> 01:05:21,360 I think it's the same with like investment as it is with M&A or anything else. 2233 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:22,700 It's like, 2234 01:05:22,699 --> 01:05:22,980 yeah, 2235 01:05:22,980 --> 01:05:27,550 it adds like a certain level of legitimacy, 2236 01:05:27,550 --> 01:05:28,980 you know? 2237 01:05:28,980 --> 01:05:33,380 I'm not sure you'd mentioned how important it is when hiring people who care. 2238 01:05:33,380 --> 01:05:36,660 Do you think you're good at hiring people who care? 2239 01:05:36,659 --> 01:05:39,000 Do you think you've mastered it? 2240 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:42,000 Generally yes. 2241 01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:42,659 But I think, 2242 01:05:42,659 --> 01:05:43,659 I think overall, 2243 01:05:43,659 --> 01:05:44,089 like, 2244 01:05:44,090 --> 01:05:45,980 I don't think you can master it. 2245 01:05:45,980 --> 01:05:47,530 I think that like, 2246 01:05:47,530 --> 01:05:50,760 I think that with hiring, 2247 01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:58,470 like there is a good portion of hiring that is just like vibes and inshallah, 2248 01:05:58,469 --> 01:05:59,599 right? 2249 01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:00,119 Like, 2250 01:06:00,119 --> 01:06:00,980 it's like, 2251 01:06:00,980 --> 01:06:01,929 I mean, 2252 01:06:01,929 --> 01:06:02,099 look, 2253 01:06:02,099 --> 01:06:06,650 some of the people that on paper and on interview, 2254 01:06:06,650 --> 01:06:12,240 I was pumped about turned out to be terrible employees. 2255 01:06:12,239 --> 01:06:14,369 And then there are people that like I was, 2256 01:06:14,369 --> 01:06:14,940 I was like, 2257 01:06:14,940 --> 01:06:16,380 sort of indifferent about, 2258 01:06:16,380 --> 01:06:17,700 you know, 2259 01:06:17,699 --> 01:06:18,279 coming in, 2260 01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,430 that turned out to be fantastic. 2261 01:06:21,429 --> 01:06:22,609 And I don't think, 2262 01:06:22,610 --> 01:06:27,170 I don't think it's something that you can necessarily screen for. 2263 01:06:27,170 --> 01:06:27,780 Right. 2264 01:06:27,779 --> 01:06:29,589 And this is why experience is important, 2265 01:06:29,590 --> 01:06:30,000 right? 2266 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:30,300 Like, 2267 01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:32,010 if somebody has a bunch of experience, 2268 01:06:32,010 --> 01:06:33,190 it's very easy to say like, 2269 01:06:33,190 --> 01:06:33,389 oh, 2270 01:06:33,389 --> 01:06:33,920 great. 2271 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:34,119 Well, 2272 01:06:34,119 --> 01:06:34,469 look, 2273 01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:36,480 they did a great job at this company. 2274 01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:37,579 I know that this company, 2275 01:06:37,579 --> 01:06:38,029 you know, 2276 01:06:38,029 --> 01:06:39,419 runs a good operation. 2277 01:06:39,420 --> 01:06:39,559 So, 2278 01:06:39,559 --> 01:06:40,159 you know, 2279 01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:41,299 it's very likely that, 2280 01:06:41,300 --> 01:06:41,829 you know, 2281 01:06:41,829 --> 01:06:42,889 they cared and, 2282 01:06:42,889 --> 01:06:43,039 you know, 2283 01:06:43,039 --> 01:06:45,480 things like that versus if they were, 2284 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:45,980 I mean, 2285 01:06:45,980 --> 01:06:46,539 you know, 2286 01:06:46,539 --> 01:06:47,029 and, 2287 01:06:47,029 --> 01:06:48,129 and this is why, 2288 01:06:48,130 --> 01:06:48,550 like, 2289 01:06:48,550 --> 01:06:49,760 I actually, 2290 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:50,860 like, 2291 01:06:50,860 --> 01:06:54,470 when looking at somebody's experience, 2292 01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:55,160 like, 2293 01:06:55,159 --> 01:07:00,349 I judge their experience based on the company in a lot of cases, 2294 01:07:00,349 --> 01:07:01,059 i.e., 2295 01:07:01,059 --> 01:07:01,489 like, 2296 01:07:01,489 --> 01:07:03,779 there are a couple of companies that, 2297 01:07:03,779 --> 01:07:04,209 like, 2298 01:07:04,210 --> 01:07:06,750 we often see CVs from where it's like, 2299 01:07:06,750 --> 01:07:10,190 I know that this company is not doing well at all. 2300 01:07:10,190 --> 01:07:16,039 I know this company has not been doing well in years and is way the hell overhired. 2301 01:07:16,039 --> 01:07:19,069 Most of the people that I work with there are incompetent. 2302 01:07:19,070 --> 01:07:19,350 So, 2303 01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:20,039 it's like, 2304 01:07:20,039 --> 01:07:21,639 why would I bring you on? 2305 01:07:21,639 --> 01:07:26,210 Why would I give value to that experience that you have when, 2306 01:07:26,210 --> 01:07:26,510 like, 2307 01:07:26,510 --> 01:07:27,200 yeah. 2308 01:07:27,199 --> 01:07:27,529 So, 2309 01:07:27,529 --> 01:07:28,029 like, 2310 01:07:28,029 --> 01:07:29,189 I don't know. 2311 01:07:29,190 --> 01:07:29,300 Like, 2312 01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:29,810 you just, 2313 01:07:29,809 --> 01:07:33,819 you have to use all the data that you have to sort of make that decision. 2314 01:07:33,820 --> 01:07:35,960 The other thing that I think is kind of wild about hiring is, 2315 01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:36,240 like, 2316 01:07:36,239 --> 01:07:36,919 you know, 2317 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:37,530 you have, 2318 01:07:37,529 --> 01:07:38,019 like, 2319 01:07:38,019 --> 01:07:40,510 three or four interviews in most cases. 2320 01:07:40,510 --> 01:07:41,490 And then you are, 2321 01:07:41,489 --> 01:07:41,750 like, 2322 01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:42,510 signing up, 2323 01:07:42,510 --> 01:07:43,300 you know, 2324 01:07:43,300 --> 01:07:43,920 you're, 2325 01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:44,409 like, 2326 01:07:44,409 --> 01:07:45,319 signing up, 2327 01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:45,700 like, 2328 01:07:45,699 --> 01:07:48,039 this person to work for you for, 2329 01:07:48,039 --> 01:07:48,710 like, 2330 01:07:48,710 --> 01:07:50,139 several years after, 2331 01:07:50,139 --> 01:07:50,319 like, 2332 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,090 basically knowing them for, 2333 01:07:52,090 --> 01:07:52,500 like, 2334 01:07:52,500 --> 01:07:53,610 a few weeks. 2335 01:07:53,610 --> 01:07:54,170 Right? 2336 01:07:54,170 --> 01:07:54,800 And so, 2337 01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:55,360 it's, 2338 01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:55,860 you know, 2339 01:07:55,860 --> 01:07:56,360 again, 2340 01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:56,800 it's just, 2341 01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:57,539 it's tough. 2342 01:07:57,539 --> 01:07:58,710 It's one of those things that's, 2343 01:07:58,710 --> 01:07:58,960 like, 2344 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,119 it's one of those things that is difficult. 2345 01:08:02,119 --> 01:08:05,679 It doesn't get easier as you scale. 2346 01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:09,009 You can attract better talent and things like that and all that's great. 2347 01:08:09,010 --> 01:08:11,760 But it doesn't necessarily get easier. 2348 01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,400 I wouldn't say that I'm an expert at it by any means. 2349 01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:14,760 Like, 2350 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,570 I've made just as many mistakes as anybody else. 2351 01:08:18,569 --> 01:08:19,210 And I think, 2352 01:08:19,210 --> 01:08:19,579 like, 2353 01:08:19,579 --> 01:08:21,649 making sure that you actually sort of, 2354 01:08:21,649 --> 01:08:22,019 like, 2355 01:08:22,020 --> 01:08:24,540 correct those mistakes is, 2356 01:08:24,539 --> 01:08:25,239 like, 2357 01:08:25,239 --> 01:08:27,979 that's actually the key. 2358 01:08:27,979 --> 01:08:29,449 Hiring people who care, 2359 01:08:29,449 --> 01:08:30,220 I have felt, 2360 01:08:30,220 --> 01:08:30,650 like, 2361 01:08:30,649 --> 01:08:33,469 it is one of the hardest things for me to do well. 2362 01:08:33,470 --> 01:08:35,310 I think it's probably for all founders. 2363 01:08:35,310 --> 01:08:35,829 It's just, 2364 01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:36,140 like, 2365 01:08:36,140 --> 01:08:36,880 it's so tough. 2366 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:37,520 And then, 2367 01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:38,120 like, 2368 01:08:38,119 --> 01:08:38,989 you have someone, 2369 01:08:38,989 --> 01:08:39,389 like, 2370 01:08:39,390 --> 01:08:44,930 by the time I realized that someone actually is just working for the paycheck and nothing else, 2371 01:08:44,930 --> 01:08:45,880 they're often, 2372 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,000 the sunk cost is often too high to make the decision right away. 2373 01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,539 They say either hire slow or fire fast, 2374 01:08:52,539 --> 01:08:54,689 ideally both. 2375 01:08:54,689 --> 01:08:59,989 It's really hard to fire fast if you have someone in a mission critical position where there's no, 2376 01:08:59,989 --> 01:09:00,769 like, 2377 01:09:00,770 --> 01:09:02,440 easy replacement for them. 2378 01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,679 And you've realized they just don't really care all that much. 2379 01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,240 How do you approach situations like that? 2380 01:09:09,239 --> 01:09:12,849 Do you just rip off the Band-Aid and leave the seat empty, 2381 01:09:12,850 --> 01:09:14,700 as Steve Jobs advocates, 2382 01:09:14,699 --> 01:09:15,119 or do you... 2383 01:09:15,119 --> 01:09:16,960 I think that's the only answer. 2384 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:17,399 Yeah. 2385 01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:17,689 I think, 2386 01:09:17,689 --> 01:09:17,909 like, 2387 01:09:17,909 --> 01:09:18,090 and, 2388 01:09:18,090 --> 01:09:18,310 like, 2389 01:09:18,310 --> 01:09:18,750 the thing is, 2390 01:09:18,750 --> 01:09:18,890 is, 2391 01:09:18,890 --> 01:09:19,110 like, 2392 01:09:19,109 --> 01:09:20,469 we used to... 2393 01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:24,400 I can point to so many examples where we slow rolled this. 2394 01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:26,469 In every single one of them, 2395 01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:28,900 in every single one of them, 2396 01:09:28,899 --> 01:09:31,429 when we let go of that person, 2397 01:09:31,430 --> 01:09:33,800 we did not miss them at all. 2398 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:34,619 In every, 2399 01:09:34,619 --> 01:09:36,930 every single instance. 2400 01:09:36,930 --> 01:09:37,190 Like, 2401 01:09:37,189 --> 01:09:40,199 you should always rip the Band-Aid off. 2402 01:09:40,199 --> 01:09:42,519 I think it's very easy. 2403 01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:42,950 And, 2404 01:09:42,949 --> 01:09:43,470 like, 2405 01:09:43,470 --> 01:09:44,150 I think, 2406 01:09:44,149 --> 01:09:46,250 and this is something that, 2407 01:09:46,250 --> 01:09:46,770 like, 2408 01:09:46,770 --> 01:09:49,960 I've also become more cognizant of recently, 2409 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,420 and I'm trying to do a better job of as, 2410 01:09:52,420 --> 01:09:52,909 like, 2411 01:09:52,909 --> 01:09:54,380 you know, 2412 01:09:54,380 --> 01:09:55,270 founder, 2413 01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:55,950 CEO, 2414 01:09:55,949 --> 01:09:58,590 is if you manage a team, 2415 01:09:58,590 --> 01:10:04,230 it is insanely easy to get stuck in this mindset of, 2416 01:10:04,229 --> 01:10:04,719 like, 2417 01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:05,039 oh, 2418 01:10:05,039 --> 01:10:05,359 no, 2419 01:10:05,359 --> 01:10:05,679 no, 2420 01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:06,240 I need, 2421 01:10:06,239 --> 01:10:06,960 you know, 2422 01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:07,670 Daniel. 2423 01:10:07,670 --> 01:10:09,550 I need this person. 2424 01:10:09,550 --> 01:10:11,319 I need that person. 2425 01:10:11,319 --> 01:10:13,239 Even if they're not doing much. 2426 01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:14,239 Right? 2427 01:10:14,239 --> 01:10:14,479 We, 2428 01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:14,989 we have, 2429 01:10:14,989 --> 01:10:15,399 I mean, 2430 01:10:15,399 --> 01:10:15,889 like, 2431 01:10:15,890 --> 01:10:16,280 this is, 2432 01:10:16,279 --> 01:10:16,729 you know, 2433 01:10:16,729 --> 01:10:17,750 going back a little ways, 2434 01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:18,260 but I mean, 2435 01:10:18,260 --> 01:10:18,570 like, 2436 01:10:18,569 --> 01:10:18,969 we had a, 2437 01:10:18,970 --> 01:10:19,369 we had a, 2438 01:10:19,369 --> 01:10:19,829 you know, 2439 01:10:19,829 --> 01:10:20,609 department where, 2440 01:10:20,609 --> 01:10:21,399 like, 2441 01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:24,639 the manager was doing literally everything. 2442 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:25,970 I mean, 2443 01:10:25,970 --> 01:10:26,750 everything. 2444 01:10:26,750 --> 01:10:28,350 But every time that I would talk to, 2445 01:10:28,350 --> 01:10:28,820 you know, 2446 01:10:28,819 --> 01:10:30,179 this person about their team, 2447 01:10:30,180 --> 01:10:30,480 it's, 2448 01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:30,679 oh, 2449 01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:30,880 no, 2450 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:31,199 like, 2451 01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:31,960 I need them. 2452 01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:32,510 I need that. 2453 01:10:32,579 --> 01:10:33,199 I need this person. 2454 01:10:33,199 --> 01:10:33,829 They're doing this, 2455 01:10:33,829 --> 01:10:34,600 they're doing that. 2456 01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:36,079 And it's like, 2457 01:10:36,079 --> 01:10:43,119 you're the one spending 16 hours a day working because they have to fix all their crap. 2458 01:10:43,119 --> 01:10:43,449 like, 2459 01:10:43,449 --> 01:10:44,219 I don't know. 2460 01:10:44,220 --> 01:10:44,470 And, 2461 01:10:44,470 --> 01:10:44,810 like, 2462 01:10:44,809 --> 01:10:46,719 I don't know if this is human nature. 2463 01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:47,930 I don't know if it's just, 2464 01:10:47,930 --> 01:10:48,320 like, 2465 01:10:48,319 --> 01:10:50,019 sort of reality in the workplace. 2466 01:10:50,020 --> 01:10:50,350 But, 2467 01:10:50,350 --> 01:10:50,740 like, 2468 01:10:50,739 --> 01:10:51,250 people, 2469 01:10:51,250 --> 01:10:53,579 if you have a team and you are managing a team, 2470 01:10:53,579 --> 01:10:54,630 there are exceptions to this, 2471 01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:55,239 obviously. 2472 01:10:55,239 --> 01:10:56,549 There are managers that are just, 2473 01:10:56,550 --> 01:10:56,860 I mean, 2474 01:10:56,859 --> 01:10:57,319 you know, 2475 01:10:57,319 --> 01:10:58,000 cutthroat. 2476 01:10:58,000 --> 01:10:58,329 Right? 2477 01:10:58,329 --> 01:10:58,529 And, 2478 01:10:58,529 --> 01:10:58,779 like, 2479 01:10:58,779 --> 01:10:59,029 they, 2480 01:10:59,029 --> 01:10:59,399 you know, 2481 01:10:59,399 --> 01:11:01,199 they're the first ones. 2482 01:11:01,199 --> 01:11:01,399 Hard to find. 2483 01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:02,539 Hard to find. 2484 01:11:02,539 --> 01:11:02,940 It is. 2485 01:11:02,940 --> 01:11:03,320 I do. 2486 01:11:03,319 --> 01:11:05,769 I do generally agree that they are harder to find. 2487 01:11:05,770 --> 01:11:06,270 Right? 2488 01:11:06,270 --> 01:11:06,690 Like, 2489 01:11:06,690 --> 01:11:07,460 in general, 2490 01:11:07,460 --> 01:11:09,229 when people take over a team, 2491 01:11:09,229 --> 01:11:14,739 they start defending that team and they start defending their team and they start defending the headcount and things like that. 2492 01:11:14,739 --> 01:11:16,399 I think people are afraid of, 2493 01:11:16,399 --> 01:11:16,759 like, 2494 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:17,720 losing headcount. 2495 01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:18,210 Like, 2496 01:11:18,210 --> 01:11:18,789 you know, 2497 01:11:18,789 --> 01:11:18,989 IE, 2498 01:11:18,989 --> 01:11:19,279 if I, 2499 01:11:19,279 --> 01:11:19,639 you know, 2500 01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:20,380 fire this person, 2501 01:11:20,380 --> 01:11:22,360 how do I know I'm going to be able to hire somebody back? 2502 01:11:22,359 --> 01:11:22,529 And, 2503 01:11:22,529 --> 01:11:22,949 like, 2504 01:11:22,949 --> 01:11:23,399 things like that. 2505 01:11:23,399 --> 01:11:23,849 I think that, 2506 01:11:23,850 --> 01:11:24,090 like, 2507 01:11:24,090 --> 01:11:24,699 that can become, 2508 01:11:24,699 --> 01:11:24,939 like, 2509 01:11:24,940 --> 01:11:26,620 an issue stuck in people's head. 2510 01:11:26,619 --> 01:11:27,880 But in every case, 2511 01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,980 we have not missed the people whatsoever. 2512 01:11:30,979 --> 01:11:32,379 And it's very easy. 2513 01:11:32,380 --> 01:11:33,420 It's very easy to, 2514 01:11:33,420 --> 01:11:33,850 like, 2515 01:11:33,850 --> 01:11:34,350 again, 2516 01:11:34,350 --> 01:11:35,980 to get into the mindset of, 2517 01:11:35,979 --> 01:11:36,259 no, 2518 01:11:36,260 --> 01:11:38,760 we need this person or we need that person. 2519 01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:39,570 In every case, 2520 01:11:39,569 --> 01:11:40,889 we've not missed them. 2521 01:11:40,890 --> 01:11:42,760 You should always rip the Band-Aid off. 2522 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:43,789 Leave the seat empty. 2523 01:11:43,789 --> 01:11:45,140 If the job is that important, 2524 01:11:45,140 --> 01:11:47,260 somebody will fill it in. 2525 01:11:47,260 --> 01:11:49,079 Somebody will figure it out. 2526 01:11:49,079 --> 01:11:50,729 Somebody will do it. 2527 01:11:50,729 --> 01:11:51,319 Yeah. 2528 01:11:51,319 --> 01:11:51,689 But, 2529 01:11:51,690 --> 01:11:52,140 like, 2530 01:11:52,140 --> 01:11:53,200 the reality is, 2531 01:11:53,199 --> 01:11:53,500 like, 2532 01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:56,350 if you have somebody that's not good in a mission critical role, 2533 01:11:56,350 --> 01:11:59,850 they're probably not doing that job in the first place. 2534 01:11:59,850 --> 01:12:00,230 Like, 2535 01:12:00,229 --> 01:12:06,289 it's like they're probably not getting done what you think they're getting done. 2536 01:12:06,289 --> 01:12:11,329 You mentioned that you can't screen for how much someone cares before hiring them, 2537 01:12:11,329 --> 01:12:12,079 right? 2538 01:12:12,079 --> 01:12:13,769 I think it's quite difficult. 2539 01:12:13,770 --> 01:12:14,340 Yeah. 2540 01:12:14,340 --> 01:12:20,960 How fast can you determine if someone truly cares after hiring them and how do you do it? 2541 01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:21,960 Once they're inside, 2542 01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:22,720 it's quite easy, 2543 01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:23,300 right? 2544 01:12:23,300 --> 01:12:24,200 How do you do it? 2545 01:12:24,199 --> 01:12:24,519 Externally, 2546 01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:25,200 it can be quite difficult. 2547 01:12:25,199 --> 01:12:26,769 Like, 2548 01:12:26,770 --> 01:12:28,780 the way I currently do it is, 2549 01:12:28,779 --> 01:12:28,960 like, 2550 01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:29,569 vibe check, 2551 01:12:29,569 --> 01:12:29,899 like, 2552 01:12:29,899 --> 01:12:32,159 how much agency ownership do they exhibit? 2553 01:12:32,159 --> 01:12:32,439 But, 2554 01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:32,760 like, 2555 01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:33,770 I wonder if you have, 2556 01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:34,100 like, 2557 01:12:34,100 --> 01:12:34,610 a more of, 2558 01:12:34,609 --> 01:12:34,920 like, 2559 01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:41,480 a scientific approach to it or more objective or easily observable way. 2560 01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:44,029 It's, 2561 01:12:44,029 --> 01:12:46,599 like, 2562 01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:47,500 it's, 2563 01:12:47,500 --> 01:12:49,590 at least for me, 2564 01:12:49,590 --> 01:12:51,000 in the first, 2565 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:51,770 like, 2566 01:12:51,770 --> 01:12:52,330 three months, 2567 01:12:52,329 --> 01:12:53,800 it is still a vibe check, 2568 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,039 but it's a vibe check with extra data, 2569 01:12:56,039 --> 01:12:56,720 right? 2570 01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:57,220 I.e. 2571 01:12:57,220 --> 01:12:58,000 it's not just, 2572 01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:58,369 like, 2573 01:12:58,369 --> 01:13:00,559 me and you are having a conversation and, 2574 01:13:00,559 --> 01:13:01,119 like, 2575 01:13:01,119 --> 01:13:01,600 you know, 2576 01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:01,890 yes, 2577 01:13:01,890 --> 01:13:03,450 you're saying the right things. 2578 01:13:03,449 --> 01:13:04,920 You seem to be a self-starter, 2579 01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:05,430 you know, 2580 01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:05,789 blah, 2581 01:13:05,789 --> 01:13:06,109 blah, 2582 01:13:06,109 --> 01:13:06,659 blah. 2583 01:13:06,659 --> 01:13:08,159 It's like ramping metrics. 2584 01:13:08,159 --> 01:13:08,500 Yeah, 2585 01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:08,899 yeah. 2586 01:13:08,899 --> 01:13:09,460 It's like, 2587 01:13:09,460 --> 01:13:09,800 okay, 2588 01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:10,079 you, 2589 01:13:10,079 --> 01:13:10,479 like, 2590 01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,789 you join the team and you're leading, 2591 01:13:13,789 --> 01:13:14,840 you know, 2592 01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:16,610 I don't know, 2593 01:13:16,609 --> 01:13:17,519 marketing, 2594 01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:18,440 right? 2595 01:13:18,440 --> 01:13:22,430 And we hired you to lead marketing because marketing wasn't going well, 2596 01:13:22,430 --> 01:13:22,920 right? 2597 01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:23,470 That's why, 2598 01:13:23,470 --> 01:13:23,920 you know, 2599 01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,140 typically you're hiring to fill gaps, 2600 01:13:26,140 --> 01:13:26,440 right? 2601 01:13:26,440 --> 01:13:26,690 I mean, 2602 01:13:26,690 --> 01:13:27,800 sometimes you're hiring because, 2603 01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:28,250 you know, 2604 01:13:28,250 --> 01:13:30,479 somebody's good is leaving or something like that, 2605 01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:32,299 but typically you're hiring to fill gaps, 2606 01:13:32,300 --> 01:13:32,710 right? 2607 01:13:32,710 --> 01:13:33,489 So we had a gap, 2608 01:13:33,489 --> 01:13:34,679 we hired you, 2609 01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:35,400 right? 2610 01:13:35,399 --> 01:13:37,689 And you're running it. 2611 01:13:37,690 --> 01:13:38,490 There's going to be problems. 2612 01:13:38,489 --> 01:13:40,519 You're not going to fix everything in three months, 2613 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:41,000 right? 2614 01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:41,960 There's going to be problems. 2615 01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:42,440 There's going to be, 2616 01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:43,220 you know, 2617 01:13:43,220 --> 01:13:44,060 things that go wrong. 2618 01:13:44,059 --> 01:13:46,899 How do you respond to those things that go wrong? 2619 01:13:46,899 --> 01:13:48,750 How are you handling those? 2620 01:13:48,750 --> 01:13:54,529 How are you sort of taking initiative over the rest of your team? 2621 01:13:54,529 --> 01:13:56,359 How are you redeploying resources? 2622 01:13:56,359 --> 01:13:58,239 How are you shuffling things up and, 2623 01:13:58,239 --> 01:13:58,920 you know, 2624 01:13:58,920 --> 01:13:59,510 making it your, 2625 01:13:59,510 --> 01:14:00,280 things like that. 2626 01:14:00,279 --> 01:14:00,590 I mean, 2627 01:14:00,590 --> 01:14:01,050 you can, 2628 01:14:01,050 --> 01:14:01,230 like, 2629 01:14:01,229 --> 01:14:07,829 there are so many more things that you can look at after like three months or six months or whatever the probation period is in, 2630 01:14:07,829 --> 01:14:08,750 you know, 2631 01:14:08,750 --> 01:14:10,760 any particular country. 2632 01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:13,159 There's so many more things that you can look at. 2633 01:14:13,159 --> 01:14:15,729 And I do generally think, 2634 01:14:15,729 --> 01:14:16,409 like, 2635 01:14:16,409 --> 01:14:17,729 hire slow, 2636 01:14:17,729 --> 01:14:18,789 fire fast, 2637 01:14:18,789 --> 01:14:21,039 I know is the motto. 2638 01:14:21,039 --> 01:14:23,880 I think it's actually quite difficult to hire slow. 2639 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,380 I think that when you try to hire slow, 2640 01:14:25,380 --> 01:14:29,390 good people get taken up. 2641 01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:29,710 Like, 2642 01:14:29,710 --> 01:14:30,489 you know, 2643 01:14:30,489 --> 01:14:32,409 hiring slow is actually usually a good way to see, 2644 01:14:32,409 --> 01:14:33,119 oh shit, 2645 01:14:33,119 --> 01:14:35,639 like we should have hired that guy. 2646 01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:35,930 Yeah. 2647 01:14:35,930 --> 01:14:38,300 And so typically you do have to hire fast. 2648 01:14:38,300 --> 01:14:39,039 That is, 2649 01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:39,649 I mean, 2650 01:14:39,649 --> 01:14:42,460 just the reality of the market. 2651 01:14:42,460 --> 01:14:44,229 You also need to fire fast for sure. 2652 01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:45,129 Like you need to, 2653 01:14:45,130 --> 01:14:48,199 you need to rip band-aids when they're not working. 2654 01:14:48,199 --> 01:14:48,460 Like I said, 2655 01:14:48,460 --> 01:14:50,479 I can point to so many examples of like, 2656 01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:52,159 this person was not working. 2657 01:14:52,159 --> 01:14:53,479 We did not rip the band-aid. 2658 01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:54,500 We should have, 2659 01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:55,119 wish we did this, 2660 01:14:55,119 --> 01:14:55,630 you know, 2661 01:14:55,630 --> 01:14:56,840 five months earlier. 2662 01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:58,050 And so, 2663 01:14:58,050 --> 01:14:58,400 yeah, 2664 01:14:58,399 --> 01:15:00,619 like when it's not working, 2665 01:15:00,619 --> 01:15:01,850 it's not working, 2666 01:15:01,850 --> 01:15:03,970 like it's not fun for anybody. 2667 01:15:03,970 --> 01:15:06,340 And also like good people want to work with good people, 2668 01:15:06,340 --> 01:15:06,760 right? 2669 01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:07,989 If you are a high performer, 2670 01:15:07,989 --> 01:15:09,929 you want to work with other high performers. 2671 01:15:09,930 --> 01:15:12,280 You want to work with other people that care about their job. 2672 01:15:12,279 --> 01:15:14,829 And so bringing in people that don't, 2673 01:15:14,829 --> 01:15:18,039 it messes up other things in the company. 2674 01:15:18,039 --> 01:15:18,619 Right. 2675 01:15:18,619 --> 01:15:19,029 So yeah. 2676 01:15:19,029 --> 01:15:20,809 How have you been able, 2677 01:15:20,809 --> 01:15:27,609 like maybe switching gears a bit from the specifics to like more of like making the journey sustainable. 2678 01:15:27,609 --> 01:15:31,639 This is a theme in the conversations I have with you the last few times. 2679 01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:41,079 How do you refill your cup as a founder and how do other founders refill their cups? 2680 01:15:41,079 --> 01:15:41,739 I can only, 2681 01:15:41,739 --> 01:15:43,829 I can only really speak for myself. 2682 01:15:43,829 --> 01:15:44,289 I mean, 2683 01:15:44,289 --> 01:15:46,170 I think everybody has their own, 2684 01:15:46,170 --> 01:15:48,079 you know, 2685 01:15:48,079 --> 01:15:50,949 methods. 2686 01:15:50,949 --> 01:15:53,500 I think for me, 2687 01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:54,090 like I am, 2688 01:15:54,090 --> 01:15:58,680 I get a lot of my energy from other people, 2689 01:15:58,680 --> 01:15:59,780 right. 2690 01:15:59,779 --> 01:16:09,389 And I think that like having the right conversations at the right time with the right people that you're close to, 2691 01:16:09,390 --> 01:16:10,420 with a co-founder, 2692 01:16:10,420 --> 01:16:11,930 with like an early employee, 2693 01:16:11,930 --> 01:16:12,450 with, 2694 01:16:12,449 --> 01:16:12,960 you know, 2695 01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:17,579 somebody that's been on the team with you for a while, 2696 01:16:17,579 --> 01:16:22,260 finding that time together is pretty critical. 2697 01:16:22,260 --> 01:16:22,650 Right. 2698 01:16:22,649 --> 01:16:24,109 And I think that that often, 2699 01:16:24,109 --> 01:16:25,009 like I find that, 2700 01:16:25,010 --> 01:16:25,730 you know, 2701 01:16:25,729 --> 01:16:30,759 keeps me grounded and I hope helps keep them grounded as well. 2702 01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:31,659 I think that, 2703 01:16:31,659 --> 01:16:32,369 you know, 2704 01:16:32,369 --> 01:16:33,199 you also, 2705 01:16:33,199 --> 01:16:35,039 you always need, 2706 01:16:35,039 --> 01:16:37,770 you always need a goal. 2707 01:16:37,770 --> 01:16:41,050 You always need a short-term goal and a long-term goal, 2708 01:16:41,050 --> 01:16:41,430 right. 2709 01:16:41,430 --> 01:16:44,159 You need something that you're working towards, 2710 01:16:44,159 --> 01:16:47,639 like over the next week or two that like keeps you going. 2711 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:47,880 Like, 2712 01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:48,279 it's like, 2713 01:16:48,279 --> 01:16:48,439 no, 2714 01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:48,800 I have to, 2715 01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:49,030 like, 2716 01:16:49,029 --> 01:16:50,159 I gotta get this shit done, 2717 01:16:50,159 --> 01:16:50,739 dude. 2718 01:16:50,739 --> 01:16:52,519 Like I gotta get this out. 2719 01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:59,570 But then you also need like a longer term goal that you're working towards that will be accomplished. 2720 01:16:59,569 --> 01:17:02,279 I like to say within 12 months. 2721 01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:03,719 Is anything longer than 12 months? 2722 01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:05,420 I think the brain starts to discount, 2723 01:17:05,420 --> 01:17:05,850 right. 2724 01:17:05,850 --> 01:17:09,770 12 months is like a good cutoff where it's like, 2725 01:17:09,770 --> 01:17:10,210 yeah. 2726 01:17:10,210 --> 01:17:10,649 Okay. 2727 01:17:10,649 --> 01:17:12,210 Like by the end of 26, 2728 01:17:12,210 --> 01:17:12,489 like, 2729 01:17:12,489 --> 01:17:12,880 yeah, 2730 01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:13,760 I'm going to do, 2731 01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:14,619 I'm going to like, 2732 01:17:14,619 --> 01:17:15,399 I don't know. 2733 01:17:15,399 --> 01:17:16,069 We're going to, 2734 01:17:16,069 --> 01:17:16,509 you know, 2735 01:17:16,510 --> 01:17:16,829 have, 2736 01:17:16,829 --> 01:17:17,239 you know, 2737 01:17:17,239 --> 01:17:18,289 this much revenue. 2738 01:17:18,289 --> 01:17:19,079 We're going to be in this country. 2739 01:17:19,079 --> 01:17:20,430 We're going to, 2740 01:17:20,430 --> 01:17:21,810 you know, 2741 01:17:21,809 --> 01:17:22,399 whatever. 2742 01:17:22,399 --> 01:17:23,500 Yeah. 2743 01:17:23,500 --> 01:17:23,890 That also, 2744 01:17:23,890 --> 01:17:24,240 like, 2745 01:17:24,239 --> 01:17:24,529 again, 2746 01:17:24,529 --> 01:17:24,909 it just, 2747 01:17:24,909 --> 01:17:25,399 it helps, 2748 01:17:25,399 --> 01:17:28,960 like you need to constantly have things that you're focusing on, 2749 01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:29,520 right. 2750 01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:30,000 You just, 2751 01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:30,590 like it can, 2752 01:17:30,590 --> 01:17:31,230 you know, 2753 01:17:31,229 --> 01:17:31,329 you, 2754 01:17:31,329 --> 01:17:37,899 it needs to be a never ending stream of like the ADHD eight year old jumping on candy, 2755 01:17:37,899 --> 01:17:38,979 you know, 2756 01:17:38,979 --> 01:17:40,339 like bouncing around, 2757 01:17:40,340 --> 01:17:40,449 like, 2758 01:17:40,449 --> 01:17:40,939 you know, 2759 01:17:40,940 --> 01:17:42,200 like different things. 2760 01:17:42,199 --> 01:17:42,989 Right. 2761 01:17:42,989 --> 01:17:43,809 Like you, 2762 01:17:43,809 --> 01:17:44,519 you just, 2763 01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:46,340 you can't if at any point. 2764 01:17:46,340 --> 01:17:46,659 And like, 2765 01:17:46,659 --> 01:17:46,979 I mean, 2766 01:17:46,979 --> 01:17:47,500 cause I've, 2767 01:17:47,500 --> 01:17:48,090 I've noticed, 2768 01:17:48,090 --> 01:17:51,880 I mean like when my productivity has slumped to the most, 2769 01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:56,810 it's been in periods where things got so long term, 2770 01:17:56,809 --> 01:17:58,809 so abstract where it's like, 2771 01:17:58,809 --> 01:17:59,139 Oh, 2772 01:17:59,140 --> 01:17:59,320 like, 2773 01:17:59,319 --> 01:17:59,789 you know, 2774 01:17:59,789 --> 01:18:00,720 we're going to like, 2775 01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:02,360 we're going to IPO one day. 2776 01:18:02,359 --> 01:18:02,909 It's like, 2777 01:18:02,909 --> 01:18:03,460 yeah, 2778 01:18:03,460 --> 01:18:04,039 that's great. 2779 01:18:04,039 --> 01:18:04,890 And like five years, 2780 01:18:04,890 --> 01:18:05,170 like, 2781 01:18:05,170 --> 01:18:05,449 dude, 2782 01:18:05,449 --> 01:18:07,739 like I'm going to be dead in five years. 2783 01:18:07,739 --> 01:18:09,279 Like the hell do I care about five years? 2784 01:18:09,279 --> 01:18:09,559 Right. 2785 01:18:09,559 --> 01:18:10,209 Like, 2786 01:18:10,210 --> 01:18:11,239 you know, 2787 01:18:11,239 --> 01:18:13,049 like if you, 2788 01:18:13,050 --> 01:18:16,030 if you get too long term, 2789 01:18:16,029 --> 01:18:16,529 you, 2790 01:18:16,529 --> 01:18:17,949 like you lose that, 2791 01:18:17,949 --> 01:18:19,170 like that fire, 2792 01:18:19,170 --> 01:18:19,680 right. 2793 01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:20,490 You have to, 2794 01:18:20,489 --> 01:18:28,210 you have to have short term and like medium term things that you're excited about the long-term vision needs to remain right. 2795 01:18:28,210 --> 01:18:32,130 And long-term vision always needs to be sort of like the end goal that you're driving to. 2796 01:18:32,130 --> 01:18:34,250 And you need to make decisions with that in mind, 2797 01:18:34,250 --> 01:18:44,119 but you have to have things in the short term that you are focused on at all times in terms of meaning and purpose. 2798 01:18:44,119 --> 01:18:45,840 Have you found what that is? 2799 01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:46,170 I mean, 2800 01:18:46,170 --> 01:18:46,510 you know, 2801 01:18:46,510 --> 01:18:47,880 you and I are pretty young, 2802 01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:49,760 like we may not have nailed it yet. 2803 01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:51,520 Like we don't have kids. 2804 01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:54,020 Like they say that meaning changes quite a bit when you have kids, 2805 01:18:54,020 --> 01:18:57,330 but do you have any inkling of a suspicion of like on your death bed, 2806 01:18:57,329 --> 01:19:00,069 like what is going to matter most to you and how, 2807 01:19:00,069 --> 01:19:01,840 like what you're doing connects to that? 2808 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:08,980 Do you think you have like an understanding of like why you're here? 2809 01:19:08,979 --> 01:19:11,109 I think, 2810 01:19:11,109 --> 01:19:15,380 I think that for me, 2811 01:19:15,380 --> 01:19:30,270 a lot of it comes down to meaningful quantifiable impact that you can have on other people, 2812 01:19:30,270 --> 01:19:30,980 right. 2813 01:19:30,979 --> 01:19:33,170 And other people's lives. 2814 01:19:33,170 --> 01:19:34,680 And I think that, 2815 01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:35,239 you know, 2816 01:19:35,239 --> 01:19:35,779 look, 2817 01:19:35,779 --> 01:19:36,239 maybe for, 2818 01:19:36,239 --> 01:19:36,809 you know, 2819 01:19:36,809 --> 01:19:37,729 for some people, 2820 01:19:37,729 --> 01:19:40,879 like having an impact on like a small community is great. 2821 01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:41,010 And, 2822 01:19:41,010 --> 01:19:41,260 and, 2823 01:19:41,260 --> 01:19:41,720 you know, 2824 01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:42,130 that's, 2825 01:19:42,130 --> 01:19:42,979 that's enough. 2826 01:19:42,979 --> 01:19:46,529 I think that with technology and being born at like the, 2827 01:19:46,529 --> 01:19:49,420 in the time period that we've been born into, 2828 01:19:49,420 --> 01:19:51,440 in the moment that we are, 2829 01:19:51,440 --> 01:20:00,990 there is an opportunity with technology to really scale the impact that you can have on people across the board. 2830 01:20:00,989 --> 01:20:02,869 And I think that, 2831 01:20:02,869 --> 01:20:03,550 you know, 2832 01:20:03,550 --> 01:20:05,500 using technology, 2833 01:20:05,500 --> 01:20:08,789 you are in a position to on your death bed, 2834 01:20:08,789 --> 01:20:10,470 be able to look back and say, 2835 01:20:10,470 --> 01:20:10,960 I had a, 2836 01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:12,090 I had an impact, 2837 01:20:12,090 --> 01:20:12,789 not on like, 2838 01:20:12,789 --> 01:20:13,520 you know, 2839 01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:14,300 one or two people, 2840 01:20:14,300 --> 01:20:14,840 right. 2841 01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:17,630 I had an impact on millions of people, 2842 01:20:17,630 --> 01:20:18,399 right. 2843 01:20:18,399 --> 01:20:19,009 I was able to, 2844 01:20:19,010 --> 01:20:22,869 I was able to build something that positively impacted millions of people that have, 2845 01:20:22,869 --> 01:20:23,399 you know, 2846 01:20:23,399 --> 01:20:25,079 like some meaningful impact in their lives. 2847 01:20:25,079 --> 01:20:26,510 I was able to, 2848 01:20:26,510 --> 01:20:27,280 you know, 2849 01:20:27,279 --> 01:20:31,760 work to change systems in this place or that place that enacted, 2850 01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:32,470 you know, 2851 01:20:32,470 --> 01:20:36,119 regulation that had a meaningful impact on people's life. 2852 01:20:36,119 --> 01:20:36,949 I think, 2853 01:20:36,949 --> 01:20:37,969 you know, 2854 01:20:37,970 --> 01:20:38,659 for me, 2855 01:20:38,659 --> 01:20:39,599 that is, 2856 01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:45,480 I think a lot of sort of the underlying driver is like, 2857 01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:59,399 I want to do something that I want to do something that like has an impact on many more people than I will ever meet. 2858 01:20:59,399 --> 01:21:00,379 Right. 2859 01:21:00,380 --> 01:21:01,619 And I think that like, 2860 01:21:01,619 --> 01:21:02,079 again, 2861 01:21:02,079 --> 01:21:02,729 with tech, 2862 01:21:02,729 --> 01:21:03,319 you know, 2863 01:21:03,319 --> 01:21:04,049 we live in a, 2864 01:21:04,050 --> 01:21:06,420 in a time where you can actually do that, 2865 01:21:06,420 --> 01:21:06,640 right. 2866 01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:08,400 You can get your message out, 2867 01:21:08,399 --> 01:21:09,449 you can get your, 2868 01:21:09,449 --> 01:21:10,159 you know, 2869 01:21:10,159 --> 01:21:11,159 your service, 2870 01:21:11,159 --> 01:21:19,829 you can get your whatever out to so many more people that you'll never meet than ever before. 2871 01:21:19,829 --> 01:21:29,149 It sounds like you've defined the scale of your impact and the magnitude, 2872 01:21:29,149 --> 01:21:32,639 but have you defined like the, 2873 01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:35,159 like the tone or the tune, 2874 01:21:35,159 --> 01:21:36,250 like the actual, 2875 01:21:36,250 --> 01:21:37,559 like way in which that happens, 2876 01:21:37,559 --> 01:21:39,649 like throughout the rest of your life, 2877 01:21:39,649 --> 01:21:42,079 not just with yellow card or maybe with yellow card, 2878 01:21:42,079 --> 01:21:43,659 like the way in which you do that, 2879 01:21:43,659 --> 01:21:45,210 like the actual mission, 2880 01:21:45,210 --> 01:21:48,800 the thread that connects like the magnitude of your impact. 2881 01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:49,319 Yeah. 2882 01:21:49,319 --> 01:21:50,359 I mean, 2883 01:21:50,359 --> 01:21:51,579 I think the, 2884 01:21:51,579 --> 01:21:54,579 like the mission is the impact, 2885 01:21:54,579 --> 01:21:55,779 right. 2886 01:21:55,779 --> 01:21:59,699 I think that I think that in terms of like, 2887 01:21:59,699 --> 01:22:02,269 what does that actually look like in practice? 2888 01:22:02,270 --> 01:22:04,160 I think that it is, 2889 01:22:04,159 --> 01:22:05,260 I think it's hard to say, 2890 01:22:05,260 --> 01:22:05,680 right. 2891 01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:06,510 I think that it's, 2892 01:22:06,510 --> 01:22:07,119 it's easy to, 2893 01:22:07,119 --> 01:22:09,770 it's easy to speak very generically to say, 2894 01:22:09,770 --> 01:22:10,510 you know, 2895 01:22:10,510 --> 01:22:14,000 I want to build something that has this impact. 2896 01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:14,880 I want to, 2897 01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:15,690 you know, 2898 01:22:15,690 --> 01:22:16,770 I don't know, 2899 01:22:16,770 --> 01:22:17,329 like, 2900 01:22:17,329 --> 01:22:18,119 you know, 2901 01:22:18,119 --> 01:22:18,930 I want to, 2902 01:22:18,930 --> 01:22:19,739 you know, 2903 01:22:19,739 --> 01:22:22,799 influence policy in certain regions that has, 2904 01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:23,220 you know, 2905 01:22:23,220 --> 01:22:23,789 this impact, 2906 01:22:23,789 --> 01:22:24,720 things like that. 2907 01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:26,900 I think that that's easy to say. 2908 01:22:26,899 --> 01:22:28,559 How do you do that in practice? 2909 01:22:28,559 --> 01:22:30,670 I think it's a lot harder. 2910 01:22:30,690 --> 01:22:31,470 that's where, 2911 01:22:31,470 --> 01:22:34,880 that's where you need to be a lot more flexible. 2912 01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:35,550 Right. 2913 01:22:35,550 --> 01:22:37,450 I think that in practice, 2914 01:22:37,449 --> 01:22:37,949 what, 2915 01:22:37,949 --> 01:22:40,199 what does that look like? 2916 01:22:40,199 --> 01:22:43,010 Hard to say. 2917 01:22:43,010 --> 01:22:44,110 What does, 2918 01:22:44,109 --> 01:22:45,889 what does that, 2919 01:22:45,890 --> 01:22:49,380 like what form does that take? 2920 01:22:49,380 --> 01:22:51,760 What actions do you have to take to get there? 2921 01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:54,280 That's where it becomes a lot more difficult to say. 2922 01:22:54,279 --> 01:22:55,019 Hmm. 2923 01:22:55,020 --> 01:22:55,310 Yeah. 2924 01:22:55,309 --> 01:22:55,759 I mean, 2925 01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:58,289 like nobody can predict like the steps, 2926 01:22:58,289 --> 01:22:59,479 like the actions, 2927 01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,259 like the journey itself is unpredictable. 2928 01:23:02,260 --> 01:23:03,750 Like I understand that, 2929 01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:06,239 but is there like a greater like purpose, 2930 01:23:06,239 --> 01:23:07,340 for example, 2931 01:23:07,340 --> 01:23:13,200 like if you said to empower like millions of people with like excessive, 2932 01:23:13,199 --> 01:23:15,969 like banking the unbanked for example, 2933 01:23:15,970 --> 01:23:20,560 or like raising the playing field with education or like, 2934 01:23:20,559 --> 01:23:23,729 is there like a specific purpose like that you think that is, 2935 01:23:23,729 --> 01:23:27,589 or like theme that's going to unify perhaps like the different endeavors, 2936 01:23:27,590 --> 01:23:32,770 like different projects you do that connects them all outside of just make it big with impact, 2937 01:23:32,770 --> 01:23:33,770 like scale, 2938 01:23:33,770 --> 01:23:33,920 like, 2939 01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:34,920 is there, 2940 01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:36,000 I think, 2941 01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:37,279 I think that for me, 2942 01:23:37,279 --> 01:23:37,599 uh, 2943 01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:40,270 like two of the more important themes, 2944 01:23:40,270 --> 01:23:42,320 so I don't like banking the unbanked. 2945 01:23:42,319 --> 01:23:43,159 I don't actually, 2946 01:23:43,159 --> 01:23:45,729 I don't actually believe in that as like just an example. 2947 01:23:45,729 --> 01:23:46,089 Yeah. 2948 01:23:46,090 --> 01:23:46,440 Uh, 2949 01:23:46,440 --> 01:23:47,540 but like, 2950 01:23:47,539 --> 01:23:48,659 I think the, 2951 01:23:48,659 --> 01:23:49,210 the, 2952 01:23:49,210 --> 01:23:52,750 the two key ones for me is number one, 2953 01:23:52,750 --> 01:23:57,819 I believe I'm like very heavily believe in like financial sovereignty, 2954 01:23:57,819 --> 01:23:58,359 i.e. 2955 01:23:58,359 --> 01:23:59,359 like it, 2956 01:23:59,359 --> 01:24:01,649 whether you have a dollar or you have a million dollars, 2957 01:24:01,649 --> 01:24:04,459 you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with that money. 2958 01:24:04,460 --> 01:24:04,690 Right. 2959 01:24:04,690 --> 01:24:06,640 Nobody should be telling you what to do with your money, 2960 01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:08,390 how you can spend it, 2961 01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:09,710 you know, 2962 01:24:09,710 --> 01:24:12,239 things like that. 2963 01:24:12,239 --> 01:24:12,380 Um, 2964 01:24:12,380 --> 01:24:13,010 that's number one, 2965 01:24:13,010 --> 01:24:13,369 right. 2966 01:24:13,369 --> 01:24:13,600 Is, 2967 01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:15,480 is promoting financial sovereignty. 2968 01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:15,969 Uh, 2969 01:24:15,970 --> 01:24:18,030 which I think that, 2970 01:24:18,029 --> 01:24:18,849 uh, 2971 01:24:18,850 --> 01:24:19,410 again, 2972 01:24:19,409 --> 01:24:22,229 like we live in a time with, 2973 01:24:22,229 --> 01:24:23,019 you know, 2974 01:24:23,020 --> 01:24:23,600 tech with, 2975 01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:24,010 you know, 2976 01:24:24,010 --> 01:24:25,170 blockchain with crypto, 2977 01:24:25,170 --> 01:24:25,460 with, 2978 01:24:25,460 --> 01:24:25,920 you know, 2979 01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:33,380 these technologies that for the first time actually enable that in parts of the world where legislation might not. 2980 01:24:33,380 --> 01:24:33,680 Yeah. 2981 01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,090 And where monetary policy might not. 2982 01:24:36,090 --> 01:24:36,420 Um, 2983 01:24:36,420 --> 01:24:39,979 so I think that like financial sovereignty is a big one. 2984 01:24:39,979 --> 01:24:43,449 I think that, 2985 01:24:43,449 --> 01:24:44,079 uh, 2986 01:24:44,079 --> 01:24:45,020 confidence, 2987 01:24:45,020 --> 01:24:47,480 if you want to speak more generally, 2988 01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:53,119 confidence is another big one and giving people. 2989 01:24:53,119 --> 01:24:53,449 And again, 2990 01:24:53,449 --> 01:24:53,739 you know, 2991 01:24:53,739 --> 01:24:53,989 this is, 2992 01:24:53,989 --> 01:24:55,210 this is one of those things where it's like, 2993 01:24:55,210 --> 01:24:55,390 well, 2994 01:24:55,390 --> 01:24:56,480 what does this look like in practice? 2995 01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:57,319 I don't know yet, 2996 01:24:57,319 --> 01:25:00,719 but like giving people more confidence, 2997 01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:02,190 giving people, 2998 01:25:02,190 --> 01:25:04,820 letting people like people, 2999 01:25:04,819 --> 01:25:07,710 I think waking up and looking in the mirror and being like, 3000 01:25:07,710 --> 01:25:08,010 just, 3001 01:25:08,010 --> 01:25:08,360 I mean, 3002 01:25:08,359 --> 01:25:08,809 you know, 3003 01:25:08,809 --> 01:25:12,929 being ready to go and like ready to tackle the day, 3004 01:25:12,930 --> 01:25:19,210 having that confidence is critical for so many things in human society. 3005 01:25:19,210 --> 01:25:20,000 I think that like, 3006 01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:20,289 if, 3007 01:25:20,289 --> 01:25:22,809 if everybody was more calm and I'm not talking cocky, 3008 01:25:22,809 --> 01:25:23,869 I'm talking confident, 3009 01:25:23,869 --> 01:25:24,359 right? 3010 01:25:24,359 --> 01:25:24,639 Yeah. 3011 01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:25,280 I got you. 3012 01:25:25,279 --> 01:25:27,149 Everybody was more confident. 3013 01:25:27,149 --> 01:25:33,239 I think that all of a sudden you would have like the birth rate crisis would be solved. 3014 01:25:33,239 --> 01:25:33,549 Uh, 3015 01:25:33,550 --> 01:25:36,220 the economy would be at a better place, 3016 01:25:36,220 --> 01:25:36,900 right? 3017 01:25:36,899 --> 01:25:38,269 You would have like, 3018 01:25:38,270 --> 01:25:38,790 I mean, 3019 01:25:38,789 --> 01:25:40,539 you would have more higher, 3020 01:25:40,539 --> 01:25:41,779 like more people would be, 3021 01:25:41,779 --> 01:25:42,319 you know, 3022 01:25:42,319 --> 01:25:42,799 hiring, 3023 01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:43,819 you would have, 3024 01:25:43,819 --> 01:25:44,279 you know, 3025 01:25:44,279 --> 01:25:45,029 less poverty. 3026 01:25:45,029 --> 01:25:45,599 You'd have, 3027 01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:45,960 I mean, 3028 01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:46,270 like, 3029 01:25:46,270 --> 01:25:48,030 there are just so many things that like, 3030 01:25:48,029 --> 01:25:53,389 I feel like confidence is just like such a precursor for, 3031 01:25:53,390 --> 01:25:54,400 right. 3032 01:25:54,399 --> 01:25:54,659 And, 3033 01:25:54,659 --> 01:25:54,939 you know, 3034 01:25:54,940 --> 01:25:56,240 people talk about like, 3035 01:25:56,239 --> 01:25:56,739 um, 3036 01:25:56,739 --> 01:25:57,449 yeah, 3037 01:25:57,449 --> 01:25:59,029 I don't know. 3038 01:25:59,029 --> 01:25:59,969 I mean like, 3039 01:25:59,970 --> 01:26:00,369 you know, 3040 01:26:00,369 --> 01:26:01,890 people talk about like, 3041 01:26:01,890 --> 01:26:02,440 you know, 3042 01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:03,030 how did, 3043 01:26:03,029 --> 01:26:04,729 how did like this person or that person, 3044 01:26:04,729 --> 01:26:05,219 you know, 3045 01:26:05,220 --> 01:26:05,600 get to, 3046 01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:07,540 get to the place that they are, 3047 01:26:07,539 --> 01:26:09,010 do this or do that. 3048 01:26:09,010 --> 01:26:10,010 And in so many cases, 3049 01:26:10,010 --> 01:26:12,360 the stuff just comes down to confidence, 3050 01:26:12,359 --> 01:26:12,710 right? 3051 01:26:12,710 --> 01:26:13,059 It just, 3052 01:26:13,059 --> 01:26:14,429 it comes down to like walking in and, 3053 01:26:14,430 --> 01:26:14,640 and, 3054 01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:15,030 you know, 3055 01:26:15,029 --> 01:26:15,760 knowing that, 3056 01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:16,460 you know, 3057 01:26:16,460 --> 01:26:16,739 you're, 3058 01:26:16,739 --> 01:26:17,279 you know, 3059 01:26:17,279 --> 01:26:18,849 you belong in that room and that, 3060 01:26:18,850 --> 01:26:19,360 you know, 3061 01:26:19,359 --> 01:26:19,920 you, 3062 01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:20,250 you can, 3063 01:26:20,250 --> 01:26:21,059 you know, 3064 01:26:21,059 --> 01:26:22,279 talk to anybody in there. 3065 01:26:22,279 --> 01:26:24,529 Yeah. 3066 01:26:24,529 --> 01:26:26,359 I really like that. 3067 01:26:26,359 --> 01:26:27,000 I really like that. 3068 01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:27,760 I actually, 3069 01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:29,329 I haven't heard that before. 3070 01:26:29,329 --> 01:26:30,440 Someone's like a purpose. 3071 01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:30,860 Like my, 3072 01:26:30,859 --> 01:26:33,039 my purpose is to give like, 3073 01:26:33,039 --> 01:26:34,649 tell me if I'm saying this right. 3074 01:26:34,649 --> 01:26:36,309 As I repeat it back to you, 3075 01:26:36,309 --> 01:26:41,789 it's to inspire as many people as I can with confidence. 3076 01:26:41,789 --> 01:26:42,239 Yes. 3077 01:26:42,239 --> 01:26:43,319 In themselves. 3078 01:26:43,319 --> 01:26:43,899 Yes. 3079 01:26:43,899 --> 01:26:45,089 In themselves. 3080 01:26:45,090 --> 01:26:45,960 Confidence. 3081 01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,159 And would you like to do that? 3082 01:26:48,159 --> 01:26:50,789 That's all so much in human society. 3083 01:26:50,789 --> 01:26:53,559 I think that confidence generally comes from two places. 3084 01:26:53,559 --> 01:26:55,759 And tell me if I'm missing something or if you disagree, 3085 01:26:55,760 --> 01:27:01,239 I think it comes from like genuine competence and your confidence reflecting your competence. 3086 01:27:01,239 --> 01:27:03,949 And then there's like another kind, 3087 01:27:03,949 --> 01:27:08,659 which is perhaps manifesting or fake it till you make it. 3088 01:27:08,659 --> 01:27:10,760 The two have a fine line where it's just like, 3089 01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:12,560 I'm going to do these great things. 3090 01:27:12,559 --> 01:27:14,279 I believe in myself. 3091 01:27:14,279 --> 01:27:14,689 Like, 3092 01:27:14,690 --> 01:27:16,230 it's still just as authentic, 3093 01:27:16,229 --> 01:27:17,559 but in a different way. 3094 01:27:17,559 --> 01:27:19,179 It was like competence. 3095 01:27:19,180 --> 01:27:20,090 It's like you, 3096 01:27:20,090 --> 01:27:21,180 you can't like, 3097 01:27:21,180 --> 01:27:21,750 it's a, 3098 01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:23,039 it's a gift of like, 3099 01:27:23,039 --> 01:27:24,819 not even a gift. 3100 01:27:24,819 --> 01:27:26,960 Like the confidence just comes from your competence. 3101 01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:27,920 Whereas this other form, 3102 01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:30,390 it's something that is like more internal. 3103 01:27:30,390 --> 01:27:34,520 It's not the world shining back at you that you should be confident. 3104 01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:35,870 I might've explained that in a confusing way, 3105 01:27:35,869 --> 01:27:38,039 but does that sound right to you? 3106 01:27:38,039 --> 01:27:38,760 I think so. 3107 01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:39,180 I mean, 3108 01:27:39,180 --> 01:27:40,970 I think when you think about, 3109 01:27:40,970 --> 01:27:41,140 um, 3110 01:27:41,140 --> 01:27:43,480 when you think about like, 3111 01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:43,729 uh, 3112 01:27:43,729 --> 01:27:45,239 competence, 3113 01:27:45,239 --> 01:27:45,739 um, 3114 01:27:45,739 --> 01:27:52,760 I know some insanely smart people that are not confident at all. 3115 01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:57,250 And I know some very dumb people that are, 3116 01:27:57,250 --> 01:27:58,149 I don't, 3117 01:27:58,149 --> 01:27:59,879 I don't know. 3118 01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:00,680 I don't know that those, 3119 01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:02,960 I don't know that there's necessarily a direct correlation. 3120 01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:03,359 Right. 3121 01:28:03,359 --> 01:28:04,289 I think that like, 3122 01:28:04,289 --> 01:28:06,920 I think that there can be in certain areas, 3123 01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:07,600 right. 3124 01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:11,079 I think that if you're really good at like, 3125 01:28:11,079 --> 01:28:11,750 you know, 3126 01:28:11,750 --> 01:28:12,640 I don't know, 3127 01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:16,300 you're really good at like biology and then you walk into, 3128 01:28:16,300 --> 01:28:17,060 you know, 3129 01:28:17,059 --> 01:28:18,479 a biology conference with, 3130 01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:19,000 you know, 3131 01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:21,050 a bunch of biologists and you know, 3132 01:28:21,050 --> 01:28:22,800 that you're really good at it. 3133 01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:22,960 Like, 3134 01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:23,359 that's great. 3135 01:28:23,359 --> 01:28:23,789 But like, 3136 01:28:23,789 --> 01:28:24,199 I think, 3137 01:28:24,199 --> 01:28:25,639 I think more often than not, 3138 01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:28,940 like the smarter that some people are, 3139 01:28:28,940 --> 01:28:29,300 um, 3140 01:28:29,300 --> 01:28:32,310 it can almost negatively impact, 3141 01:28:32,309 --> 01:28:33,159 you know, 3142 01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:34,260 your level of confidence, 3143 01:28:34,260 --> 01:28:34,560 right. 3144 01:28:34,559 --> 01:28:35,609 By being too smart, 3145 01:28:35,609 --> 01:28:37,069 because the smarter you are, 3146 01:28:37,069 --> 01:28:37,829 the more, 3147 01:28:37,829 --> 01:28:38,470 you know, 3148 01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:39,850 what you don't know, 3149 01:28:39,850 --> 01:28:40,310 like, 3150 01:28:40,309 --> 01:28:41,920 you know what I mean? 3151 01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:43,090 Like, 3152 01:28:43,090 --> 01:28:44,480 yeah. 3153 01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:44,599 Yeah. 3154 01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:45,440 Like, 3155 01:28:45,440 --> 01:28:46,740 whereas like, 3156 01:28:46,739 --> 01:28:47,639 you know, 3157 01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:47,940 I, 3158 01:28:47,940 --> 01:28:52,660 I know absolutely nothing about theoretical physics, 3159 01:28:52,659 --> 01:28:53,750 like, 3160 01:28:53,750 --> 01:28:54,359 nothing. 3161 01:28:54,359 --> 01:28:54,779 Like, 3162 01:28:54,779 --> 01:28:56,639 I don't even know what it refers to. 3163 01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:58,930 I think that's like Einstein's shit. 3164 01:28:58,930 --> 01:28:59,590 I don't know. 3165 01:28:59,590 --> 01:29:00,270 Whatever. 3166 01:29:00,270 --> 01:29:00,920 But like, 3167 01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:05,300 I don't know what I don't know about theoretical physics at all. 3168 01:29:05,300 --> 01:29:06,119 Right. 3169 01:29:06,119 --> 01:29:07,289 And so like, 3170 01:29:07,289 --> 01:29:09,960 if I started to read into it, 3171 01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,770 if I started to learn more about theoretical physics, 3172 01:29:12,770 --> 01:29:15,190 I would start to learn things where it's like, 3173 01:29:15,190 --> 01:29:15,670 oh shit, 3174 01:29:15,670 --> 01:29:16,090 well, 3175 01:29:16,090 --> 01:29:17,550 I don't know about this. 3176 01:29:17,550 --> 01:29:18,239 I don't know about now. 3177 01:29:18,239 --> 01:29:20,590 I know all the things that I don't know. 3178 01:29:20,590 --> 01:29:22,860 Now I know that there's all these branches of this, 3179 01:29:22,859 --> 01:29:23,369 you know, 3180 01:29:23,369 --> 01:29:25,739 silence that I don't know anything about. 3181 01:29:25,739 --> 01:29:26,099 Right. 3182 01:29:26,100 --> 01:29:26,770 And so like, 3183 01:29:26,770 --> 01:29:27,720 yeah, 3184 01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:29,840 I don't know. 3185 01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,079 That's probably a weird explanation. 3186 01:29:32,079 --> 01:29:33,229 But I think that like, 3187 01:29:33,229 --> 01:29:33,769 you know, 3188 01:29:33,770 --> 01:29:34,210 it can, 3189 01:29:34,210 --> 01:29:39,970 it can be negatively correlated in that you can learn more about things that you don't know anything about, 3190 01:29:39,970 --> 01:29:41,880 which can impact your confidence. 3191 01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:42,630 Cause it's like, 3192 01:29:42,630 --> 01:29:43,029 oh shit, 3193 01:29:43,029 --> 01:29:47,680 I know that I don't know anything about these eight branches of like this thing. 3194 01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:48,100 Whereas for me, 3195 01:29:48,100 --> 01:29:48,400 it's like, 3196 01:29:48,399 --> 01:29:48,579 yeah, 3197 01:29:48,579 --> 01:29:49,559 I don't know anything about that. 3198 01:29:49,559 --> 01:29:50,859 I don't know. 3199 01:29:50,859 --> 01:29:51,469 Like, 3200 01:29:51,470 --> 01:29:52,650 whatever, 3201 01:29:52,649 --> 01:29:53,250 dude, 3202 01:29:53,250 --> 01:29:54,720 who cares? 3203 01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:55,020 Um, 3204 01:29:55,020 --> 01:29:56,740 on the other hand though, 3205 01:29:56,739 --> 01:29:58,619 there's like fake it till you make it. 3206 01:29:58,619 --> 01:30:00,559 I think like there's like, 3207 01:30:00,559 --> 01:30:02,479 there's some degree of that. 3208 01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:03,939 I think like for me, 3209 01:30:03,940 --> 01:30:10,200 like confidence at its core is like some degree of certainty of the future, 3210 01:30:10,199 --> 01:30:11,299 right? 3211 01:30:11,300 --> 01:30:12,119 In any given sense, 3212 01:30:12,119 --> 01:30:14,029 like I think at its most simplistic form, 3213 01:30:14,029 --> 01:30:16,960 it's just certainty of the future confidence. 3214 01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:18,149 Like in a job interview, 3215 01:30:18,149 --> 01:30:20,719 if you're going to go into a job interview confidence, 3216 01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:26,319 cause I have certainty that like the future is going to be me getting that job or it's going to be great for you no matter what, 3217 01:30:26,319 --> 01:30:27,449 even if you don't get the job, 3218 01:30:27,449 --> 01:30:29,090 it's like exit from the, 3219 01:30:29,090 --> 01:30:32,960 like a divergence from the scarcity mindset. 3220 01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:33,109 Exactly. 3221 01:30:33,109 --> 01:30:33,760 Like confidence, 3222 01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:36,090 confidence for me in an investor call is, 3223 01:30:36,090 --> 01:30:36,690 you know, 3224 01:30:36,690 --> 01:30:37,610 I'm confident, 3225 01:30:37,609 --> 01:30:40,399 not necessarily that like Daniel is going to invest, 3226 01:30:40,399 --> 01:30:41,549 but that somebody will, 3227 01:30:41,550 --> 01:30:42,039 right. 3228 01:30:42,039 --> 01:30:44,619 And that we will be able to finish this round and, 3229 01:30:44,619 --> 01:30:45,609 and you know, 3230 01:30:45,609 --> 01:30:47,229 we'll get it through. 3231 01:30:47,229 --> 01:30:47,639 Right. 3232 01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:48,360 And so like, 3233 01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:49,599 I think like that's, 3234 01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:54,120 I think that's more so what it's about is like some certainty in the future. 3235 01:30:54,119 --> 01:30:54,930 And I think, 3236 01:30:54,930 --> 01:30:56,440 I think that for, 3237 01:30:56,440 --> 01:30:59,560 I think that like for a lot of people, 3238 01:30:59,559 --> 01:30:59,959 um, 3239 01:30:59,960 --> 01:31:01,100 there is, 3240 01:31:01,100 --> 01:31:02,720 there's uncertainty, 3241 01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:02,920 right? 3242 01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:05,340 Like people are just uncertain about their future. 3243 01:31:05,340 --> 01:31:06,210 They're scared, 3244 01:31:06,210 --> 01:31:06,520 they're, 3245 01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:07,520 you know, 3246 01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:07,720 whatever. 3247 01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:08,470 Right. 3248 01:31:08,470 --> 01:31:08,850 Um, 3249 01:31:08,850 --> 01:31:11,090 and then for some people, 3250 01:31:11,090 --> 01:31:13,319 they are so in the day to day, 3251 01:31:13,319 --> 01:31:16,319 they're so in the weeds that they can't even think about the future. 3252 01:31:16,319 --> 01:31:16,979 Those are, 3253 01:31:16,979 --> 01:31:22,479 those are the two things more than anything that really impact like the ability for people to be confident. 3254 01:31:22,479 --> 01:31:24,359 And there are other factors, 3255 01:31:24,359 --> 01:31:24,989 right? 3256 01:31:24,989 --> 01:31:25,239 I mean, 3257 01:31:25,239 --> 01:31:25,449 like, 3258 01:31:25,449 --> 01:31:25,760 you know, 3259 01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:25,989 again, 3260 01:31:25,989 --> 01:31:26,170 look, 3261 01:31:26,170 --> 01:31:27,819 some people wake up and they look at the, 3262 01:31:27,819 --> 01:31:31,180 they don't like the way they look and like that impacts their confidence. 3263 01:31:31,180 --> 01:31:31,600 Right. 3264 01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:32,380 So it's like, 3265 01:31:32,380 --> 01:31:32,960 you know, 3266 01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:34,920 like so much of it is just mental. 3267 01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:40,079 So how do you want to accomplish this calling, 3268 01:31:40,079 --> 01:31:41,899 this meaning, 3269 01:31:41,899 --> 01:31:43,849 this purpose? 3270 01:31:43,850 --> 01:31:44,880 Like no idea. 3271 01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:45,979 No clue. 3272 01:31:45,979 --> 01:31:47,079 Yeah. 3273 01:31:47,079 --> 01:31:47,460 No clue. 3274 01:31:47,460 --> 01:31:50,079 I'm focused on the financial sovereignty one right now. 3275 01:31:50,079 --> 01:31:50,239 So yeah. 3276 01:31:50,239 --> 01:31:52,500 There's different angles. 3277 01:31:52,500 --> 01:31:53,579 Like in a way, 3278 01:31:53,579 --> 01:31:54,079 like, 3279 01:31:54,079 --> 01:31:54,479 um, 3280 01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:55,469 I mean like, 3281 01:31:55,470 --> 01:31:59,530 I feel like one of my callings is to like help people, 3282 01:31:59,529 --> 01:31:59,909 uh, 3283 01:31:59,909 --> 01:32:03,000 express their individual agency. 3284 01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:07,159 And I guess like a big component of that is confidence in themselves. 3285 01:32:07,159 --> 01:32:10,799 So I think you and I are pretty closely aligned in terms of like why we do what we do, 3286 01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:13,239 but we may be too young to figure out how to, 3287 01:32:13,239 --> 01:32:13,479 uh, 3288 01:32:13,479 --> 01:32:15,759 how to get that to manifest in the world. 3289 01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:21,819 I feel like there is some degree of wisdom required to be able to like pursue some things. 3290 01:32:21,819 --> 01:32:24,090 Like I think this might be something, 3291 01:32:24,090 --> 01:32:24,520 I mean, 3292 01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:26,970 like it's always better to do it sooner rather than later, 3293 01:32:26,970 --> 01:32:29,400 but I haven't quite figured it out yet myself either. 3294 01:32:29,399 --> 01:32:31,949 This podcast is one of the forms in which I'm, 3295 01:32:31,949 --> 01:32:32,849 you know, 3296 01:32:32,850 --> 01:32:34,020 testing the waters, 3297 01:32:34,020 --> 01:32:35,640 trying things out. 3298 01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:36,280 Yeah. 3299 01:32:36,279 --> 01:32:36,840 Yeah. 3300 01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:37,489 Trying things out, 3301 01:32:37,489 --> 01:32:38,760 trying things out. 3302 01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:39,600 But I really like, 3303 01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:41,280 I really like what you've chosen. 3304 01:32:41,279 --> 01:32:44,880 It's one of my favorite answers I've gotten on the podcast so far. 3305 01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:46,229 I wish you all the best with that. 3306 01:32:46,229 --> 01:32:46,519 And like, 3307 01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:48,180 if you ever want to brainstorm, 3308 01:32:48,180 --> 01:32:49,030 like give me a ring, 3309 01:32:49,029 --> 01:32:49,329 like, 3310 01:32:49,329 --> 01:32:50,329 we'll be happy to like, 3311 01:32:50,329 --> 01:32:50,779 you know, 3312 01:32:50,779 --> 01:32:52,579 bounce some ideas off one, 3313 01:32:52,579 --> 01:32:57,569 maybe switching back to like your journey in Africa. 3314 01:32:57,569 --> 01:32:59,260 Like you spent a lot of time over there, 3315 01:32:59,260 --> 01:32:59,380 man, 3316 01:32:59,380 --> 01:33:03,600 to the point to where I actually noticed like the way you speak English has changed. 3317 01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:03,910 Uh, 3318 01:33:03,909 --> 01:33:04,430 like, 3319 01:33:04,430 --> 01:33:04,829 yeah, 3320 01:33:04,829 --> 01:33:06,869 like since we met at Auburn, 3321 01:33:06,869 --> 01:33:09,300 like Auburn university where we went to school, 3322 01:33:09,300 --> 01:33:09,760 like, 3323 01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:10,050 um, 3324 01:33:10,050 --> 01:33:14,060 what are some of the culture shocks you first had when you came to Africa? 3325 01:33:14,059 --> 01:33:14,399 Like, 3326 01:33:14,399 --> 01:33:14,939 you know, 3327 01:33:14,940 --> 01:33:16,500 I spent a year and a half in India. 3328 01:33:16,500 --> 01:33:17,479 Like it was a, 3329 01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:19,159 it was crazy how much of a culture shock I had there. 3330 01:33:19,159 --> 01:33:19,460 I can't, 3331 01:33:19,460 --> 01:33:20,440 I've never been to Africa. 3332 01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:22,680 I can't imagine how that was for you. 3333 01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:23,010 Like what, 3334 01:33:23,010 --> 01:33:31,239 what were some of the things that really stood out that really boggled your brain those first few months? 3335 01:33:31,239 --> 01:33:33,809 Um, 3336 01:33:33,809 --> 01:33:34,699 you know, 3337 01:33:34,699 --> 01:33:35,619 I think, 3338 01:33:35,619 --> 01:33:36,329 I think, 3339 01:33:36,329 --> 01:33:37,239 you know, 3340 01:33:37,239 --> 01:33:38,219 for me, 3341 01:33:38,220 --> 01:33:39,460 and this is, 3342 01:33:39,460 --> 01:33:42,520 this is going back to like this idea of like, 3343 01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:43,250 you know, 3344 01:33:43,250 --> 01:33:44,319 competence. 3345 01:33:44,319 --> 01:33:44,630 Uh, 3346 01:33:44,630 --> 01:33:45,130 like, 3347 01:33:45,130 --> 01:33:46,750 I think for me going in, 3348 01:33:46,750 --> 01:33:49,000 I knew absolutely nothing. 3349 01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:51,069 I had no idea what to expect. 3350 01:33:51,069 --> 01:33:55,039 I didn't know where most countries were on a map, 3351 01:33:55,039 --> 01:33:55,920 right? 3352 01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:56,579 Like, 3353 01:33:56,579 --> 01:34:00,770 and so I went in as just a complete open slate, 3354 01:34:00,770 --> 01:34:01,440 right? 3355 01:34:01,440 --> 01:34:02,230 I mean, 3356 01:34:02,229 --> 01:34:02,599 look, 3357 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,260 I come from, 3358 01:34:03,260 --> 01:34:03,800 you know, 3359 01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:04,220 I like, 3360 01:34:04,220 --> 01:34:05,670 I grew up in Louisiana, 3361 01:34:05,670 --> 01:34:07,460 went to school in Alabama. 3362 01:34:07,460 --> 01:34:08,199 Right. 3363 01:34:08,199 --> 01:34:10,930 So about as Southern as it gets, 3364 01:34:10,930 --> 01:34:11,480 like, 3365 01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:19,279 I had no preconceived notion of what a place like Nigeria or anywhere else would be like. 3366 01:34:19,279 --> 01:34:20,969 And so obviously, 3367 01:34:20,970 --> 01:34:21,700 I mean, 3368 01:34:21,699 --> 01:34:22,359 look, 3369 01:34:22,359 --> 01:34:25,069 like things are very different, 3370 01:34:25,069 --> 01:34:27,920 like Nigeria versus Louisiana. 3371 01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:28,690 Right. 3372 01:34:28,690 --> 01:34:29,820 Um, 3373 01:34:29,819 --> 01:34:31,529 but I, 3374 01:34:31,529 --> 01:34:33,590 I will say, 3375 01:34:33,590 --> 01:34:34,190 and this is, 3376 01:34:34,190 --> 01:34:35,130 this is like, 3377 01:34:35,130 --> 01:34:37,619 I tell people this all the time and it's, 3378 01:34:37,619 --> 01:34:38,369 it's like, 3379 01:34:38,369 --> 01:34:40,720 I think it's surprising for some people, 3380 01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:45,520 but I have more of a culture shock when I'm in Europe than I do when I'm in Africa, 3381 01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:47,710 because I think with like Africa, 3382 01:34:47,710 --> 01:34:48,800 with like Asia, 3383 01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:51,720 with some of these other parts of the world, 3384 01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:52,170 I've, 3385 01:34:52,170 --> 01:34:54,869 I've gone in with such an open mind to what, 3386 01:34:54,869 --> 01:34:58,440 what's going on there with such an acknowledgement of like, 3387 01:34:58,440 --> 01:35:01,120 I don't actually know anything about the place. 3388 01:35:01,119 --> 01:35:02,350 I don't like I going in, 3389 01:35:02,350 --> 01:35:03,720 had no idea what you expect, 3390 01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:06,039 no idea what it's going to be like. 3391 01:35:06,119 --> 01:35:07,640 I knew that it was going to be different. 3392 01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:10,050 That was it. 3393 01:35:10,079 --> 01:35:13,119 And as a result, 3394 01:35:13,119 --> 01:35:13,300 like, 3395 01:35:13,300 --> 01:35:13,750 yes, 3396 01:35:13,750 --> 01:35:15,989 things were very different, 3397 01:35:15,989 --> 01:35:21,439 but I feel like I was able to adapt much more quickly to those differences, 3398 01:35:21,440 --> 01:35:21,770 uh, 3399 01:35:21,770 --> 01:35:25,600 which is probably why my English sounds different. 3400 01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:25,910 Uh, 3401 01:35:25,909 --> 01:35:34,739 like I was able to adapt much more quickly to those differences than going in with some preconceived notion of either the way that things are there, 3402 01:35:34,739 --> 01:35:37,719 the way they should be or anything like that. 3403 01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:38,680 And in fairness, 3404 01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:40,600 that is largely what I do when I go to Europe, 3405 01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:42,090 when I go to different parts of Europe, 3406 01:35:42,090 --> 01:35:42,310 man, 3407 01:35:42,309 --> 01:35:43,199 I go there and I'm like, 3408 01:35:43,199 --> 01:35:43,559 Oh yeah, 3409 01:35:43,559 --> 01:35:45,139 like this is the West. 3410 01:35:45,140 --> 01:35:46,650 Like it's supposed to be normal. 3411 01:35:46,649 --> 01:35:47,439 Europeans are not normal. 3412 01:35:47,440 --> 01:35:48,780 I don't know what it is. 3413 01:35:48,779 --> 01:35:49,920 It's crazy, 3414 01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:50,600 dude. 3415 01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:51,500 It's not, 3416 01:35:51,500 --> 01:35:52,210 I mean, 3417 01:35:52,210 --> 01:35:53,430 it depends. 3418 01:35:53,430 --> 01:35:55,060 Depends on like, 3419 01:35:55,059 --> 01:35:57,379 depends where they're from. 3420 01:35:57,380 --> 01:35:58,010 Right. 3421 01:35:58,010 --> 01:36:02,159 But like Europeans and Americans are so different. 3422 01:36:02,159 --> 01:36:02,349 Like, 3423 01:36:02,350 --> 01:36:02,800 and yes, 3424 01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:05,100 Nigerians and Americans are also very different, 3425 01:36:05,100 --> 01:36:05,570 but like, 3426 01:36:05,569 --> 01:36:10,639 I'm more shocked when like a European is like vastly different than me that I am. 3427 01:36:10,639 --> 01:36:13,079 Like a Nigerian guy is. 3428 01:36:13,079 --> 01:36:14,800 Yeah. 3429 01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:15,059 I mean, 3430 01:36:15,059 --> 01:36:15,670 I don't know. 3431 01:36:15,670 --> 01:36:16,059 Come on, 3432 01:36:16,059 --> 01:36:16,459 man. 3433 01:36:16,460 --> 01:36:16,899 Like you're, 3434 01:36:16,899 --> 01:36:19,119 you're telling me like the food didn't shock you. 3435 01:36:19,119 --> 01:36:20,619 Like the cultural values, 3436 01:36:20,619 --> 01:36:22,090 like social norms, 3437 01:36:22,090 --> 01:36:23,389 gender roles, 3438 01:36:23,389 --> 01:36:25,959 these things did not blow your mind. 3439 01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:30,520 Like the first time having taken like four flights in your life and then landing in Nigeria, 3440 01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:31,620 like none of it. 3441 01:36:31,619 --> 01:36:33,639 Like those are some of the things that blew my mind. 3442 01:36:33,639 --> 01:36:33,939 Like, 3443 01:36:33,940 --> 01:36:34,739 of course it did. 3444 01:36:34,739 --> 01:36:35,090 Yeah. 3445 01:36:35,090 --> 01:36:35,770 Like it did. 3446 01:36:35,770 --> 01:36:36,040 Yeah. 3447 01:36:36,039 --> 01:36:36,340 Like, 3448 01:36:36,340 --> 01:36:36,690 yeah. 3449 01:36:36,690 --> 01:36:37,400 Like it was all, 3450 01:36:37,399 --> 01:36:38,989 it was all very new, 3451 01:36:38,989 --> 01:36:39,940 but like, 3452 01:36:39,940 --> 01:36:40,670 I just, 3453 01:36:40,670 --> 01:36:42,289 I didn't have, 3454 01:36:42,289 --> 01:36:42,680 like, 3455 01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:48,880 I didn't have a moment of culture shock in the same way that I've had in, 3456 01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:49,930 in Europe. 3457 01:36:49,930 --> 01:36:55,850 Like I have been more surprised by things in Europe than I have in like, 3458 01:36:55,850 --> 01:36:56,400 like, 3459 01:36:56,399 --> 01:36:57,059 okay. 3460 01:36:57,059 --> 01:37:04,920 Like a three hour lunch with wine in like Spain is much more like shocking to me than like, 3461 01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:05,530 you know, 3462 01:37:05,530 --> 01:37:06,780 I don't know, 3463 01:37:06,780 --> 01:37:12,730 people yelling at each other during a negotiation and then like going and like having beer. 3464 01:37:12,729 --> 01:37:13,309 Like, 3465 01:37:13,309 --> 01:37:14,529 you know, 3466 01:37:14,530 --> 01:37:14,980 like that, 3467 01:37:14,979 --> 01:37:15,299 like, 3468 01:37:15,300 --> 01:37:15,760 I just, 3469 01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:16,149 like, 3470 01:37:16,149 --> 01:37:17,059 I was just like, 3471 01:37:17,059 --> 01:37:19,939 what do you mean you drink wine at noon? 3472 01:37:19,940 --> 01:37:20,350 Like, 3473 01:37:20,350 --> 01:37:21,190 I was like, 3474 01:37:21,190 --> 01:37:21,780 for me, 3475 01:37:21,780 --> 01:37:23,730 that was so much more like, 3476 01:37:23,729 --> 01:37:24,399 what? 3477 01:37:24,399 --> 01:37:25,119 Yeah. 3478 01:37:25,119 --> 01:37:25,479 I don't know. 3479 01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:25,979 I'll just, 3480 01:37:25,979 --> 01:37:27,449 I'll finish it off by saying like, 3481 01:37:27,449 --> 01:37:27,800 I mean, 3482 01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:28,250 you know, 3483 01:37:28,250 --> 01:37:28,610 maybe, 3484 01:37:28,610 --> 01:37:30,100 maybe it's at this point, 3485 01:37:30,199 --> 01:37:30,659 I'm just, 3486 01:37:30,659 --> 01:37:32,590 I'm so used to some of these things and like, 3487 01:37:32,590 --> 01:37:34,829 I spent so much time there that like, 3488 01:37:34,829 --> 01:37:35,590 it's like, 3489 01:37:35,590 --> 01:37:36,190 I don't, 3490 01:37:36,190 --> 01:37:38,710 I don't really see it that way anymore, 3491 01:37:38,710 --> 01:37:40,180 but like, 3492 01:37:40,180 --> 01:37:40,920 yeah, 3493 01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:42,550 I don't know. 3494 01:37:42,550 --> 01:37:43,110 I just, 3495 01:37:43,110 --> 01:37:44,960 I went in with such an open, 3496 01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:46,059 like as such a, 3497 01:37:46,059 --> 01:37:46,559 I mean, 3498 01:37:46,559 --> 01:37:47,059 like I, 3499 01:37:47,059 --> 01:37:47,689 to your point, 3500 01:37:47,690 --> 01:37:51,860 like I had been on a plane four times in my life before starting this company. 3501 01:37:51,860 --> 01:37:52,340 Right. 3502 01:37:52,340 --> 01:37:52,949 So like, 3503 01:37:52,949 --> 01:37:56,319 I had no idea what it's like in any of these places. 3504 01:37:56,319 --> 01:37:58,590 And I didn't sort of like, 3505 01:37:58,590 --> 01:38:01,639 posture as if I had any idea. 3506 01:38:01,639 --> 01:38:02,149 Yeah. 3507 01:38:02,149 --> 01:38:02,649 Like, 3508 01:38:02,649 --> 01:38:03,079 I just, 3509 01:38:03,079 --> 01:38:03,719 I went in, 3510 01:38:03,719 --> 01:38:05,239 I had like good local, 3511 01:38:05,239 --> 01:38:06,219 like friends, 3512 01:38:06,219 --> 01:38:06,829 guides, 3513 01:38:06,829 --> 01:38:07,590 whatever, 3514 01:38:07,590 --> 01:38:09,719 in every place that I would go to, 3515 01:38:09,719 --> 01:38:11,010 I would have somebody good local, 3516 01:38:11,010 --> 01:38:11,559 like I would, 3517 01:38:11,559 --> 01:38:11,939 you know, 3518 01:38:11,940 --> 01:38:12,390 have like, 3519 01:38:12,389 --> 01:38:12,789 you know, 3520 01:38:12,789 --> 01:38:13,149 Daniel, 3521 01:38:13,149 --> 01:38:14,039 if I'm going to, 3522 01:38:14,039 --> 01:38:14,579 you know, 3523 01:38:14,579 --> 01:38:15,770 whatever country. 3524 01:38:15,770 --> 01:38:16,500 Right. 3525 01:38:16,500 --> 01:38:17,469 And like, 3526 01:38:17,469 --> 01:38:20,000 just like learned everything. 3527 01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:20,590 And like, 3528 01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:21,140 of course, 3529 01:38:21,139 --> 01:38:24,000 there's things that are very different and that are surprising. 3530 01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:24,520 But like, 3531 01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:25,100 I just, 3532 01:38:25,100 --> 01:38:25,460 like, 3533 01:38:25,460 --> 01:38:29,239 I just went in with such a blank slate in some of these places. 3534 01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:29,739 It's the, 3535 01:38:29,739 --> 01:38:30,489 I think that like, 3536 01:38:30,489 --> 01:38:31,860 in order to be culture shocked, 3537 01:38:31,860 --> 01:38:35,280 you have to go in with an idea of the way that things should be. 3538 01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:35,730 Like, 3539 01:38:35,729 --> 01:38:36,389 and like, 3540 01:38:36,389 --> 01:38:37,379 in like, 3541 01:38:37,380 --> 01:38:37,530 again, 3542 01:38:37,530 --> 01:38:38,760 like with Europe, 3543 01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:43,760 it's like you go in with an idea of what the West is like having grown up in the West. 3544 01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:45,889 You get there and it's like, 3545 01:38:45,889 --> 01:38:49,679 what do you mean you guys get 29 vacation days? 3546 01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:50,030 Yeah, 3547 01:38:50,030 --> 01:38:50,890 I guess, 3548 01:38:50,889 --> 01:38:52,899 I guess that makes sense. 3549 01:38:52,899 --> 01:38:55,639 It's relative to your expectations. 3550 01:38:55,639 --> 01:38:58,119 When you travel to like South Sudan, 3551 01:38:58,119 --> 01:39:00,119 when you travel to Iraq, 3552 01:39:00,119 --> 01:39:02,119 when you travel to places like this, 3553 01:39:02,119 --> 01:39:02,899 you go in like, 3554 01:39:02,899 --> 01:39:04,309 those are places that you go, 3555 01:39:04,309 --> 01:39:06,519 you want to talk about like culture shock, 3556 01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:11,239 like you go in with some preconceived notions in like some of these countries, 3557 01:39:11,239 --> 01:39:11,639 right? 3558 01:39:11,639 --> 01:39:13,479 Because they are ostensibly dangerous. 3559 01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:14,439 Right. 3560 01:39:14,440 --> 01:39:14,770 And like, 3561 01:39:14,770 --> 01:39:15,100 you know, 3562 01:39:15,100 --> 01:39:16,980 like probably shouldn't be going. 3563 01:39:16,979 --> 01:39:17,779 Nobody stopped me. 3564 01:39:17,780 --> 01:39:20,489 Somebody probably should have stopped me. 3565 01:39:20,489 --> 01:39:21,559 Nobody stopped me. 3566 01:39:21,559 --> 01:39:22,659 But like, 3567 01:39:22,659 --> 01:39:23,300 getting there, 3568 01:39:23,300 --> 01:39:24,000 like man, 3569 01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:28,139 I like Iraq is one of those places I recommend to everybody. 3570 01:39:28,139 --> 01:39:30,039 It is incredible. 3571 01:39:30,039 --> 01:39:31,719 The people are incredible. 3572 01:39:31,719 --> 01:39:33,109 It is so welcoming. 3573 01:39:33,110 --> 01:39:35,079 It is safe. 3574 01:39:35,079 --> 01:39:36,270 The war has been over for years, 3575 01:39:36,270 --> 01:39:36,690 right? 3576 01:39:36,690 --> 01:39:39,480 I don't think people sort of realize that necessarily, 3577 01:39:39,479 --> 01:39:41,369 especially in America. 3578 01:39:41,369 --> 01:39:44,119 Like the war has been over for years. 3579 01:39:44,119 --> 01:39:45,059 It's safe. 3580 01:39:45,059 --> 01:39:46,519 It's it's clean. 3581 01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:49,360 You have a ton of money there. 3582 01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:49,900 Holy shit, 3583 01:39:49,899 --> 01:39:50,179 man. 3584 01:39:50,180 --> 01:39:51,090 I mean, 3585 01:39:51,090 --> 01:39:58,479 just Rolls Royces and Range Rovers and everything driving around like tons of money, 3586 01:39:58,479 --> 01:39:59,479 mostly from oil. 3587 01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:00,399 Like, 3588 01:40:00,399 --> 01:40:07,559 it's just it's so different than the notion that you have in your head of what like Iraq is. 3589 01:40:07,559 --> 01:40:09,119 Right. 3590 01:40:09,119 --> 01:40:09,899 And I'm not look, 3591 01:40:09,899 --> 01:40:12,359 I'm not saying that like nothing bad happens there. 3592 01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:14,370 I'm not saying that like there's not like, 3593 01:40:14,369 --> 01:40:14,909 you know, 3594 01:40:14,909 --> 01:40:16,280 you need to be careful. 3595 01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:16,930 Yeah, 3596 01:40:16,930 --> 01:40:17,750 it is. 3597 01:40:17,750 --> 01:40:24,059 It is so much better than like the way that it gets portrayed in a way that like it is in your head. 3598 01:40:24,059 --> 01:40:24,719 Same in like South Sudan. 3599 01:40:24,719 --> 01:40:24,920 I mean, 3600 01:40:24,920 --> 01:40:25,680 like South Sudan. 3601 01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:26,010 Look, 3602 01:40:26,010 --> 01:40:26,630 it's I mean, 3603 01:40:26,630 --> 01:40:28,600 it is it's a rough place. 3604 01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:29,320 It's I mean, 3605 01:40:29,319 --> 01:40:29,979 like it is, 3606 01:40:29,979 --> 01:40:30,579 you know, 3607 01:40:30,579 --> 01:40:31,500 it's you know, 3608 01:40:31,500 --> 01:40:31,899 I mean, 3609 01:40:31,899 --> 01:40:34,039 one of the poorest countries in the world. 3610 01:40:34,039 --> 01:40:37,920 They've been stuck in and out of civil wars since independence. 3611 01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:39,760 Like it's it's a rough place. 3612 01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:42,489 But like there are again, 3613 01:40:42,489 --> 01:40:42,880 like, 3614 01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:50,719 like I have friends there that are a lot more similar to me than like you would imagine. 3615 01:40:50,719 --> 01:40:52,260 Right. 3616 01:40:52,260 --> 01:40:53,869 And you know, 3617 01:40:53,869 --> 01:40:54,159 yeah, 3618 01:40:54,159 --> 01:40:59,680 I just I think that like so much of the world trends more similar than it does different. 3619 01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:02,489 And you can find that pretty much anywhere you go, 3620 01:41:02,489 --> 01:41:05,729 no matter what you think of a country going in. 3621 01:41:05,729 --> 01:41:06,549 Sure. 3622 01:41:06,550 --> 01:41:07,010 OK, 3623 01:41:07,010 --> 01:41:07,710 well, 3624 01:41:07,710 --> 01:41:09,440 interesting. 3625 01:41:09,440 --> 01:41:15,000 And I'll take you up on hearing some of the other stories perhaps another time. 3626 01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:16,180 But I did want to ask, 3627 01:41:16,180 --> 01:41:16,720 like, 3628 01:41:16,719 --> 01:41:18,939 as we get close to wrapping things up, 3629 01:41:18,940 --> 01:41:26,530 I think one of the most important things as a founder is continuing to level up with each round of funding, 3630 01:41:26,530 --> 01:41:28,710 with each new growth milestone, 3631 01:41:28,710 --> 01:41:30,800 with each new business pivot. 3632 01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:34,159 Like it seems that the greatest limiting factor, 3633 01:41:34,159 --> 01:41:37,079 especially in the early days of the startup, 3634 01:41:37,079 --> 01:41:42,180 is the founder's ability to level themselves up so that they can then proceed to level the company up. 3635 01:41:42,180 --> 01:41:44,829 It seems to precede the company's success. 3636 01:41:44,829 --> 01:41:48,250 Sometimes the company will do well and the founder is forced to play catch up. 3637 01:41:48,250 --> 01:41:50,319 Like that's definitely part of it. 3638 01:41:50,319 --> 01:41:58,159 But how do you keep yourself growing so that you can take the company forward and continue leveling yellow card up? 3639 01:41:58,159 --> 01:41:58,260 Yeah, 3640 01:41:58,260 --> 01:41:59,000 I think I mean, 3641 01:41:59,000 --> 01:41:59,289 look, 3642 01:41:59,289 --> 01:41:59,729 frankly, 3643 01:41:59,729 --> 01:42:03,159 I think in an ideal world you're always kind of catching up. 3644 01:42:03,159 --> 01:42:03,369 Right. 3645 01:42:03,369 --> 01:42:07,920 The company is always sort of outpacing you. 3646 01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:08,239 You know, 3647 01:42:08,239 --> 01:42:09,719 innovation outpaces regulation. 3648 01:42:09,719 --> 01:42:10,129 Right. 3649 01:42:10,130 --> 01:42:10,850 The same idea. 3650 01:42:10,850 --> 01:42:11,260 Right. 3651 01:42:11,260 --> 01:42:14,829 Like the company should always be kind of outpacing you as the founder. 3652 01:42:14,829 --> 01:42:17,280 Forcing you to grow. 3653 01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:17,659 Yeah, 3654 01:42:17,659 --> 01:42:18,319 exactly. 3655 01:42:18,319 --> 01:42:19,699 Forcing you to grow. 3656 01:42:19,699 --> 01:42:19,979 And again, 3657 01:42:19,979 --> 01:42:20,750 like you talked about, 3658 01:42:20,750 --> 01:42:20,969 like, 3659 01:42:20,969 --> 01:42:23,709 what keeps you motivated and what keeps you like hungry. 3660 01:42:23,710 --> 01:42:24,559 It's like, 3661 01:42:24,559 --> 01:42:25,069 shit, 3662 01:42:25,069 --> 01:42:25,579 dude, 3663 01:42:25,579 --> 01:42:27,479 I can't get left behind. 3664 01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:29,039 I got to keep up. 3665 01:42:29,039 --> 01:42:31,649 And this is the same for founders as it is for employees. 3666 01:42:31,649 --> 01:42:32,260 Right. 3667 01:42:32,260 --> 01:42:32,789 I mean, 3668 01:42:32,789 --> 01:42:34,819 and I tell the team this all the time. 3669 01:42:34,819 --> 01:42:36,799 It's like you need to be constantly growing, 3670 01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:40,280 constantly improving because the company is growing and improving. 3671 01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:41,340 And the thing is, 3672 01:42:41,340 --> 01:42:41,899 is like, 3673 01:42:41,899 --> 01:42:42,529 you know, 3674 01:42:42,530 --> 01:42:45,460 the person that you were two years ago and the company that, 3675 01:42:45,460 --> 01:42:45,949 you know, 3676 01:42:45,949 --> 01:42:48,719 what the company was two years ago are very different. 3677 01:42:48,719 --> 01:42:49,239 Right. 3678 01:42:49,239 --> 01:42:55,239 And what the company needs two years from now versus what I'm able to provide today could be very different. 3679 01:42:55,239 --> 01:43:00,600 And you need to constantly be leveling up and growing in order to meet that. 3680 01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:02,090 And I think that like, 3681 01:43:02,090 --> 01:43:02,750 you know, 3682 01:43:02,750 --> 01:43:03,550 there are, 3683 01:43:03,550 --> 01:43:03,809 I mean, 3684 01:43:03,809 --> 01:43:04,019 look, 3685 01:43:04,020 --> 01:43:05,120 they're just great. 3686 01:43:05,119 --> 01:43:07,520 There are examples of founders that have done this insanely well. 3687 01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:09,960 And then there are examples of founders that haven't done it well. 3688 01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:10,239 Right. 3689 01:43:10,239 --> 01:43:15,719 And then like the ones that acknowledge it normally sort of like step aside and like bring somebody in to, 3690 01:43:15,719 --> 01:43:16,439 you know, 3691 01:43:16,440 --> 01:43:17,850 kind of take it to the next level. 3692 01:43:17,850 --> 01:43:18,220 And, 3693 01:43:18,219 --> 01:43:18,889 you know, 3694 01:43:18,889 --> 01:43:19,969 others don't, 3695 01:43:19,969 --> 01:43:20,399 you know, 3696 01:43:20,399 --> 01:43:21,500 whatever. 3697 01:43:21,500 --> 01:43:21,989 Right. 3698 01:43:21,989 --> 01:43:22,399 But, 3699 01:43:22,399 --> 01:43:22,729 um, 3700 01:43:22,729 --> 01:43:23,299 I mean, 3701 01:43:23,300 --> 01:43:24,039 I think, 3702 01:43:24,039 --> 01:43:24,969 I think for, 3703 01:43:24,969 --> 01:43:25,489 for me, 3704 01:43:25,489 --> 01:43:26,190 that has, 3705 01:43:26,190 --> 01:43:28,680 that has always been a big piece of it, 3706 01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:29,280 right. 3707 01:43:29,280 --> 01:43:29,440 Is, 3708 01:43:29,440 --> 01:43:30,980 is trying to keep up with a company, 3709 01:43:30,979 --> 01:43:34,959 trying to keep up with the industry. 3710 01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:36,250 Um, 3711 01:43:36,250 --> 01:43:44,940 I think I see growth probably a little bit differently than most people do in that. 3712 01:43:44,940 --> 01:43:46,010 I think that, 3713 01:43:46,010 --> 01:43:46,770 you know, 3714 01:43:46,770 --> 01:43:47,270 what, 3715 01:43:47,270 --> 01:43:48,070 you know, 3716 01:43:48,069 --> 01:43:49,219 is important, 3717 01:43:49,219 --> 01:43:50,439 obviously. 3718 01:43:50,440 --> 01:43:51,780 And you need to like, 3719 01:43:51,780 --> 01:43:52,079 you, 3720 01:43:52,079 --> 01:43:55,250 you need to always be improving yourself from like a, 3721 01:43:55,250 --> 01:43:57,229 like knowledge standpoint and, 3722 01:43:57,229 --> 01:43:59,229 and like the way that you think about things, 3723 01:43:59,229 --> 01:43:59,739 but like, 3724 01:43:59,739 --> 01:44:01,639 what's more important than knowledge, 3725 01:44:01,639 --> 01:44:05,029 especially in today's day and age when like everything is Googleable ever, 3726 01:44:05,030 --> 01:44:06,310 I can chat GPT, 3727 01:44:06,309 --> 01:44:07,799 whatever I need. 3728 01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:08,149 Right. 3729 01:44:08,149 --> 01:44:09,250 Like knowledge, 3730 01:44:09,250 --> 01:44:12,920 I think is less important than the way that you think about things. 3731 01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:14,329 So like always fine tuning, 3732 01:44:14,329 --> 01:44:16,440 the way that you think about things. 3733 01:44:16,440 --> 01:44:16,810 Um, 3734 01:44:16,809 --> 01:44:19,670 and that's something that like, 3735 01:44:19,670 --> 01:44:20,219 you know, 3736 01:44:20,219 --> 01:44:21,959 I had to get better at, 3737 01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:23,590 especially as the company has grown and, 3738 01:44:23,590 --> 01:44:23,819 and, 3739 01:44:23,819 --> 01:44:24,239 you know, 3740 01:44:24,239 --> 01:44:25,680 we've grown into new regions and, 3741 01:44:25,680 --> 01:44:25,909 and, 3742 01:44:25,909 --> 01:44:26,760 you know, 3743 01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:31,690 countries and cultures and things like that is you have to fine tune the way that you think about problems. 3744 01:44:31,690 --> 01:44:32,020 Um, 3745 01:44:32,020 --> 01:44:32,579 that's, 3746 01:44:32,579 --> 01:44:35,170 that's definitely one of them. 3747 01:44:35,170 --> 01:44:35,840 Uh, 3748 01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:38,170 and then growing, 3749 01:44:38,170 --> 01:44:44,430 growing your network to make sure that you are, 3750 01:44:44,430 --> 01:44:55,860 that you have people that you can talk to that are at a similar or slightly like higher stage than you is also critical. 3751 01:44:55,860 --> 01:44:56,960 Right. 3752 01:44:56,960 --> 01:44:57,979 Cause the thing is, 3753 01:44:57,979 --> 01:44:58,519 you know, 3754 01:44:58,520 --> 01:44:58,750 if, 3755 01:44:58,750 --> 01:44:59,180 if, 3756 01:44:59,180 --> 01:44:59,540 you know, 3757 01:44:59,539 --> 01:45:00,639 if you and I are, 3758 01:45:00,639 --> 01:45:04,789 you and I are friends and we talk about like business problems and this and that, 3759 01:45:04,789 --> 01:45:05,079 well, 3760 01:45:05,079 --> 01:45:05,590 you know, 3761 01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:08,350 our companies might grow at completely different paces, 3762 01:45:08,350 --> 01:45:08,880 right? 3763 01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:14,600 Like you guys could completely outpace us or like we could completely outpace or whatever. 3764 01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:15,110 And then like, 3765 01:45:15,110 --> 01:45:17,770 and then the problems just become different and it becomes tough to like, 3766 01:45:17,770 --> 01:45:21,460 continue to have those conversations with like you say. 3767 01:45:21,460 --> 01:45:22,010 And so like, 3768 01:45:22,010 --> 01:45:22,309 that's, 3769 01:45:22,309 --> 01:45:24,239 that's the thing that happens constantly. 3770 01:45:24,239 --> 01:45:24,559 Right. 3771 01:45:24,559 --> 01:45:24,769 And, 3772 01:45:24,770 --> 01:45:25,250 and like, 3773 01:45:25,250 --> 01:45:25,489 you know, 3774 01:45:25,489 --> 01:45:26,369 I've gone through this, 3775 01:45:26,369 --> 01:45:26,619 I mean, 3776 01:45:26,619 --> 01:45:29,699 so many times with so many different people where it's like, 3777 01:45:29,699 --> 01:45:30,300 you know, 3778 01:45:30,300 --> 01:45:31,100 the company, 3779 01:45:31,100 --> 01:45:31,500 like, 3780 01:45:31,500 --> 01:45:32,100 you know, 3781 01:45:32,100 --> 01:45:32,350 we, 3782 01:45:32,350 --> 01:45:33,350 like I was, 3783 01:45:33,350 --> 01:45:33,820 you know, 3784 01:45:33,819 --> 01:45:34,189 this, 3785 01:45:34,190 --> 01:45:34,850 this guy, 3786 01:45:34,850 --> 01:45:35,450 you know, 3787 01:45:35,449 --> 01:45:36,079 we would, 3788 01:45:36,079 --> 01:45:36,710 you know, 3789 01:45:36,710 --> 01:45:40,280 how do you say go back and forth on issues and things like that. 3790 01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:40,530 Um, 3791 01:45:40,530 --> 01:45:42,380 and like try to get perspective, 3792 01:45:42,380 --> 01:45:44,479 but then like the companies grew at different rates. 3793 01:45:44,479 --> 01:45:44,769 Right. 3794 01:45:44,770 --> 01:45:45,079 And like, 3795 01:45:45,079 --> 01:45:47,020 we're in a much different place than, 3796 01:45:47,020 --> 01:45:48,079 than they are now. 3797 01:45:48,079 --> 01:45:52,260 And so you need to find other people that you can talk to about this stuff. 3798 01:45:52,260 --> 01:45:52,619 Right. 3799 01:45:52,619 --> 01:45:53,750 And so I think growing, 3800 01:45:53,750 --> 01:45:55,649 growing your network, 3801 01:45:55,649 --> 01:45:56,279 um, 3802 01:45:56,280 --> 01:45:59,840 for me has been like one of the more important ones. 3803 01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:00,639 And when I say network, 3804 01:46:00,639 --> 01:46:01,590 I don't just mean like, 3805 01:46:01,590 --> 01:46:02,340 you know, 3806 01:46:02,340 --> 01:46:02,500 like, 3807 01:46:02,500 --> 01:46:04,309 who can I like call if I need a favor, 3808 01:46:04,309 --> 01:46:04,670 like, 3809 01:46:04,670 --> 01:46:10,489 like network in terms of like founders that are in a similar place. 3810 01:46:10,489 --> 01:46:11,280 Cause I just, 3811 01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:12,900 I think that like this, 3812 01:46:12,899 --> 01:46:13,420 and I mean, 3813 01:46:13,420 --> 01:46:14,219 this goes back to, 3814 01:46:14,219 --> 01:46:14,449 again, 3815 01:46:14,449 --> 01:46:15,809 sort of my core philosophy on this, 3816 01:46:15,809 --> 01:46:18,929 which is that there is no book for like starting a company. 3817 01:46:18,930 --> 01:46:19,370 There's no, 3818 01:46:19,369 --> 01:46:20,369 there's not actually like, 3819 01:46:20,369 --> 01:46:23,920 there's nothing that you can actually learn that's going to help you that much. 3820 01:46:23,920 --> 01:46:26,809 You just have to like learn from experience from other people's, 3821 01:46:26,809 --> 01:46:30,279 your own experience and other people's experience. 3822 01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:31,989 So learning from your network, 3823 01:46:31,989 --> 01:46:32,409 like, 3824 01:46:32,409 --> 01:46:34,030 are these mostly founders? 3825 01:46:34,030 --> 01:46:37,850 Are they people who've exited you're learning from? 3826 01:46:37,850 --> 01:46:39,290 Are they investors? 3827 01:46:39,289 --> 01:46:41,149 Are they virtual mentors? 3828 01:46:41,149 --> 01:46:41,649 If you will, 3829 01:46:41,649 --> 01:46:43,479 like people you watch on YouTube, 3830 01:46:43,479 --> 01:46:43,739 uh, 3831 01:46:43,739 --> 01:46:44,460 like where, 3832 01:46:44,460 --> 01:46:47,840 where do you learn the most in terms of like your network? 3833 01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:48,079 Uh, 3834 01:46:48,079 --> 01:46:49,489 definitely not YouTube. 3835 01:46:49,489 --> 01:46:50,420 I find that like, 3836 01:46:50,420 --> 01:46:50,600 I, 3837 01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:50,970 like, 3838 01:46:50,969 --> 01:46:51,449 I don't, 3839 01:46:51,449 --> 01:46:52,409 I don't know, 3840 01:46:52,409 --> 01:46:53,340 maybe this is just me, 3841 01:46:53,340 --> 01:46:53,840 but like, 3842 01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:57,260 I don't take that much as somebody that does talks at conferences all the time. 3843 01:46:57,260 --> 01:47:00,469 Like I don't take that much inspiration from talks at conferences. 3844 01:47:00,469 --> 01:47:03,179 I think like every once in a while, 3845 01:47:03,180 --> 01:47:03,720 you'll like, 3846 01:47:03,719 --> 01:47:06,319 like I'll hear somebody that's like really good. 3847 01:47:06,319 --> 01:47:07,449 And it's just like, 3848 01:47:07,449 --> 01:47:07,850 yeah, 3849 01:47:07,850 --> 01:47:09,000 you get fired up. 3850 01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:09,360 Right. 3851 01:47:09,360 --> 01:47:11,800 The Patriot comes out, 3852 01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:12,899 but like, 3853 01:47:12,899 --> 01:47:13,079 I, 3854 01:47:13,079 --> 01:47:13,610 you know, 3855 01:47:13,610 --> 01:47:14,180 yeah, 3856 01:47:14,180 --> 01:47:14,930 I generally, 3857 01:47:14,930 --> 01:47:15,880 I don't know. 3858 01:47:15,880 --> 01:47:17,000 I don't like, 3859 01:47:17,000 --> 01:47:18,050 I find like, 3860 01:47:18,050 --> 01:47:18,899 I need to, 3861 01:47:18,899 --> 01:47:23,189 I need to be able to like sit down with somebody and like really like talk to them. 3862 01:47:23,190 --> 01:47:23,600 Right. 3863 01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:24,989 Like ask like the, 3864 01:47:24,989 --> 01:47:27,670 the like deep probing questions. 3865 01:47:27,670 --> 01:47:28,170 Um, 3866 01:47:28,170 --> 01:47:30,020 because I'm so much more, 3867 01:47:30,020 --> 01:47:31,980 I'm so much less interested in the, 3868 01:47:31,979 --> 01:47:39,649 like sort of the way that something happened and so much more interested in like the process that led to what happened. 3869 01:47:39,649 --> 01:47:40,239 Right. 3870 01:47:40,239 --> 01:47:40,739 So I find, 3871 01:47:40,739 --> 01:47:41,960 I mean like for me it's, 3872 01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:42,479 I mean it's, 3873 01:47:42,479 --> 01:47:43,539 it's other founders, 3874 01:47:43,539 --> 01:47:45,729 it's people that you can sit down with and like, 3875 01:47:45,729 --> 01:47:46,399 I mean, 3876 01:47:46,399 --> 01:47:48,639 ask these pressing questions. 3877 01:47:48,639 --> 01:47:49,159 Investors, 3878 01:47:49,159 --> 01:47:50,149 investors are good too, 3879 01:47:50,149 --> 01:47:54,745 especially like good investors are good at this as well 3880 01:47:54,745 --> 01:47:58,930 because good investors have seen problems across a 3881 01:47:58,930 --> 01:48:03,280 hundred companies as opposed to one or two companies. 3882 01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:03,640 Right. 3883 01:48:03,639 --> 01:48:07,959 And so like a good investor can also help with this in that. 3884 01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:08,250 Yeah, 3885 01:48:08,250 --> 01:48:08,760 exactly. 3886 01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:11,940 Like in that they're able to like pattern match this stuff and they're able to say, 3887 01:48:11,940 --> 01:48:12,420 you know, 3888 01:48:12,420 --> 01:48:12,880 Hey look, 3889 01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:14,350 this company did it this way. 3890 01:48:14,350 --> 01:48:15,780 This company did it this way. 3891 01:48:15,780 --> 01:48:16,810 This worked much better. 3892 01:48:16,809 --> 01:48:17,289 Yeah. 3893 01:48:17,289 --> 01:48:17,920 Yeah. 3894 01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:20,930 I find that's like the most valuable thing I get from our investors, 3895 01:48:20,930 --> 01:48:23,030 especially our white combinator partners. 3896 01:48:23,030 --> 01:48:24,070 Like they've just, 3897 01:48:24,069 --> 01:48:25,479 they've seen so many, 3898 01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:32,879 so many different businesses and there's a lot more like transfer learning than you might think between like unrelated businesses. 3899 01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:33,539 So I think it's, 3900 01:48:33,539 --> 01:48:34,039 yeah, 3901 01:48:34,039 --> 01:48:35,880 that's been very helpful. 3902 01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:40,920 Earlier you'd mentioned that in terms of growing yourself, 3903 01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:46,750 you've more been focused on fine tuning how you think about problems. 3904 01:48:46,750 --> 01:48:49,030 Are there frameworks? 3905 01:48:49,030 --> 01:48:51,020 Is there something else? 3906 01:48:51,020 --> 01:48:51,130 Like, 3907 01:48:51,130 --> 01:48:51,920 what do you mean by that? 3908 01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:52,369 Like how, 3909 01:48:52,369 --> 01:48:55,079 how have you developed that? 3910 01:48:55,079 --> 01:48:57,569 Like, 3911 01:48:57,569 --> 01:49:06,989 so I think what I mean is like somewhat difficult to explain. 3912 01:49:06,989 --> 01:49:07,170 Right. 3913 01:49:07,170 --> 01:49:07,710 But like, 3914 01:49:07,710 --> 01:49:09,319 I think the thing is, 3915 01:49:09,319 --> 01:49:10,479 the thing is, 3916 01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:13,969 is like with information now with Google, 3917 01:49:13,969 --> 01:49:15,129 with chat, 3918 01:49:15,130 --> 01:49:15,409 GPT, 3919 01:49:15,409 --> 01:49:16,399 with, 3920 01:49:16,399 --> 01:49:17,389 you know, 3921 01:49:17,389 --> 01:49:18,529 the internet, 3922 01:49:18,530 --> 01:49:19,890 with all this, 3923 01:49:19,889 --> 01:49:22,659 there's never an excuse. 3924 01:49:22,659 --> 01:49:24,600 Not that there's not an excuse for not knowing something. 3925 01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:28,140 There's never an excuse for not being able to find the answer to something. 3926 01:49:28,139 --> 01:49:28,340 If, 3927 01:49:28,340 --> 01:49:29,630 if something has a, 3928 01:49:29,630 --> 01:49:30,319 you know, 3929 01:49:30,319 --> 01:49:31,189 an answer, 3930 01:49:31,190 --> 01:49:31,760 right. 3931 01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:35,039 If the question is like what year was George Washington born? 3932 01:49:35,039 --> 01:49:37,039 Like that has a specific answer. 3933 01:49:37,039 --> 01:49:38,739 There's no reason you can't find that, 3934 01:49:38,739 --> 01:49:39,239 right? 3935 01:49:39,239 --> 01:49:40,039 There's 7 million. 3936 01:49:40,039 --> 01:49:43,000 I can tell you the answer before I finish this sentence, 3937 01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:43,559 right? 3938 01:49:43,559 --> 01:49:48,000 There's so many different ways of finding information. 3939 01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:56,199 What you do with that information and the way you process that information is what matters. 3940 01:49:56,199 --> 01:49:58,350 And when it comes to the problems, 3941 01:49:58,350 --> 01:50:01,290 I think like what matters more than just like, 3942 01:50:01,289 --> 01:50:01,760 okay, 3943 01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:02,289 you know, 3944 01:50:02,289 --> 01:50:03,229 I don't know, 3945 01:50:03,229 --> 01:50:04,789 we're having an HR issue, 3946 01:50:04,789 --> 01:50:05,420 you know, 3947 01:50:05,420 --> 01:50:06,329 Daniel is, 3948 01:50:06,329 --> 01:50:06,760 you know, 3949 01:50:06,760 --> 01:50:07,639 I don't know, 3950 01:50:07,639 --> 01:50:08,109 doing X, 3951 01:50:08,110 --> 01:50:08,320 Y, 3952 01:50:08,319 --> 01:50:08,599 Z and, 3953 01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:09,159 you know, 3954 01:50:09,159 --> 01:50:10,069 causing a fuss and, 3955 01:50:10,069 --> 01:50:10,349 and, 3956 01:50:10,350 --> 01:50:10,860 you know, 3957 01:50:10,860 --> 01:50:12,980 what do we do about that? 3958 01:50:12,979 --> 01:50:13,899 Well, 3959 01:50:13,899 --> 01:50:15,599 it's like, 3960 01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:16,840 okay. 3961 01:50:16,840 --> 01:50:17,430 You know, 3962 01:50:17,430 --> 01:50:19,739 there's sort of the conventional like, 3963 01:50:19,739 --> 01:50:20,010 oh, 3964 01:50:20,010 --> 01:50:20,479 okay, 3965 01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:20,799 well, 3966 01:50:20,800 --> 01:50:21,340 you know, 3967 01:50:21,340 --> 01:50:22,639 he's causing a problem, 3968 01:50:22,639 --> 01:50:23,319 so we need to, 3969 01:50:23,319 --> 01:50:23,849 you know, 3970 01:50:23,850 --> 01:50:26,200 follow the handbook and do this, 3971 01:50:26,199 --> 01:50:26,550 right? 3972 01:50:26,550 --> 01:50:27,250 Or, 3973 01:50:27,250 --> 01:50:27,670 you know, 3974 01:50:27,670 --> 01:50:28,510 there's the, 3975 01:50:28,510 --> 01:50:29,139 you know, 3976 01:50:29,139 --> 01:50:29,949 I don't know, 3977 01:50:29,949 --> 01:50:33,219 the more like thinking outside of the box where it's like, 3978 01:50:33,219 --> 01:50:33,559 well, 3979 01:50:33,559 --> 01:50:34,049 maybe, 3980 01:50:34,050 --> 01:50:35,100 maybe the reason that, 3981 01:50:35,100 --> 01:50:35,579 you know, 3982 01:50:35,579 --> 01:50:37,989 Daniel is causing a problem is because, 3983 01:50:37,989 --> 01:50:38,680 you know, 3984 01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:39,130 he is, 3985 01:50:39,130 --> 01:50:39,819 you know, 3986 01:50:39,819 --> 01:50:41,010 unhappy with, 3987 01:50:41,010 --> 01:50:41,520 you know, 3988 01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:45,640 the team or the people he's working with or the things that he's doing. 3989 01:50:45,639 --> 01:50:46,349 You know, 3990 01:50:46,350 --> 01:50:50,180 does he have skills that are transferable to a different part of the org, 3991 01:50:50,180 --> 01:50:50,680 right? 3992 01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:53,530 Should he actually be doing something completely different? 3993 01:50:53,530 --> 01:50:55,480 And maybe this is part of the problem. 3994 01:50:55,479 --> 01:50:56,209 And like, 3995 01:50:56,210 --> 01:50:59,590 just when you start to think about the problem differently, 3996 01:50:59,590 --> 01:51:02,579 you end up with a very different answer, 3997 01:51:02,579 --> 01:51:03,119 right? 3998 01:51:03,119 --> 01:51:04,250 Like employee, 3999 01:51:04,250 --> 01:51:06,590 a causing a problem and just like, 4000 01:51:06,590 --> 01:51:07,110 okay, 4001 01:51:07,110 --> 01:51:07,550 well, 4002 01:51:07,550 --> 01:51:08,909 do we fire them or like, 4003 01:51:08,909 --> 01:51:09,380 do we, 4004 01:51:09,380 --> 01:51:09,690 you know, 4005 01:51:09,690 --> 01:51:11,350 do we give them what they want or like, 4006 01:51:11,350 --> 01:51:11,790 you know, 4007 01:51:11,789 --> 01:51:12,600 whatever, 4008 01:51:12,600 --> 01:51:15,640 like thinking about it simplistically will lead you one path, 4009 01:51:15,639 --> 01:51:18,619 thinking about it and just a deeper way of like, 4010 01:51:18,619 --> 01:51:19,449 you know, 4011 01:51:19,449 --> 01:51:20,000 well, 4012 01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:20,800 you know, 4013 01:51:20,800 --> 01:51:21,530 why, 4014 01:51:21,530 --> 01:51:23,310 why is that happening? 4015 01:51:23,309 --> 01:51:24,760 Like always asking why, 4016 01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:25,159 right? 4017 01:51:25,159 --> 01:51:26,800 Like a four-year-old, 4018 01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:27,409 right? 4019 01:51:27,409 --> 01:51:28,969 Just constantly asking why, 4020 01:51:28,969 --> 01:51:29,289 why, 4021 01:51:29,289 --> 01:51:29,530 why, 4022 01:51:29,530 --> 01:51:30,079 right? 4023 01:51:30,079 --> 01:51:30,350 And, 4024 01:51:30,350 --> 01:51:31,180 you know, 4025 01:51:31,180 --> 01:51:33,550 getting the whole way back to the creation of the universe, 4026 01:51:33,550 --> 01:51:35,180 I think is like that, 4027 01:51:35,180 --> 01:51:38,850 that to me is like one of the most important things, 4028 01:51:38,850 --> 01:51:39,640 right? 4029 01:51:39,639 --> 01:51:45,319 And like knowing what to ask in those different situations is the way that I think about it. 4030 01:51:45,319 --> 01:51:49,439 When you think about like thinking about things differently. 4031 01:51:49,440 --> 01:51:50,880 Hmm. 4032 01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:56,960 So staying curious about the root causes of any issues, 4033 01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,360 is that like a good summary? 4034 01:51:59,360 --> 01:52:00,460 Yeah. 4035 01:52:00,460 --> 01:52:04,239 How are you going back to the root causes? 4036 01:52:04,239 --> 01:52:05,710 What was that? 4037 01:52:05,710 --> 01:52:08,020 Nailing it back to the root causes. 4038 01:52:08,020 --> 01:52:08,170 Like, 4039 01:52:08,170 --> 01:52:11,639 don't just think about the problem at face value. 4040 01:52:11,639 --> 01:52:13,750 Like always be thinking a little bit, 4041 01:52:13,750 --> 01:52:15,520 like a layer deeper. 4042 01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:16,620 Hmm. 4043 01:52:16,619 --> 01:52:17,420 Or yeah. 4044 01:52:17,420 --> 01:52:18,130 Okay. 4045 01:52:18,130 --> 01:52:20,219 That makes sense to me. 4046 01:52:20,219 --> 01:52:20,959 Yeah. 4047 01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:21,420 Like, 4048 01:52:21,420 --> 01:52:22,940 or a few layers deeper, 4049 01:52:22,940 --> 01:52:24,010 perhaps like why, 4050 01:52:24,010 --> 01:52:24,280 why, 4051 01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:24,620 why? 4052 01:52:24,619 --> 01:52:27,289 Like the five whys is like one of my favorite exercises. 4053 01:52:27,289 --> 01:52:29,199 Sometimes hard to keep top of mind, 4054 01:52:29,199 --> 01:52:30,260 but it's like, 4055 01:52:30,260 --> 01:52:32,710 I found it to be very valuable. 4056 01:52:32,710 --> 01:52:33,430 Yeah. 4057 01:52:33,430 --> 01:52:43,880 I think childlike curiosity is like one of the most powerful like skills of a good founder. 4058 01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:44,880 Yes. 4059 01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:49,619 Like just staying like obsessively curious about your customer, 4060 01:52:49,619 --> 01:52:50,889 about your team, 4061 01:52:50,889 --> 01:52:53,059 about everything that is that you do. 4062 01:52:53,059 --> 01:52:57,519 So getting really deep into like understanding like how things work intimately. 4063 01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:59,800 A hundred percent. 4064 01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:05,199 How do you think your job like in the last 10 years as CEO has changed with more traction, 4065 01:53:05,199 --> 01:53:06,250 more people, 4066 01:53:06,250 --> 01:53:07,479 more external capital? 4067 01:53:07,479 --> 01:53:11,239 Like how does your day-to-day look like over the years? 4068 01:53:11,239 --> 01:53:19,039 How has that changed? 4069 01:53:19,039 --> 01:53:20,649 I think it, 4070 01:53:20,649 --> 01:53:22,579 it went from, 4071 01:53:22,579 --> 01:53:26,479 it went from very internal, 4072 01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:27,769 right. 4073 01:53:27,770 --> 01:53:29,230 And like, 4074 01:53:29,229 --> 01:53:30,359 I mean, 4075 01:53:30,360 --> 01:53:33,360 having to do everything internal, 4076 01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,190 like managing everybody, 4077 01:53:35,190 --> 01:53:37,280 all of that to external where, 4078 01:53:37,280 --> 01:53:37,760 okay, 4079 01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:38,479 great. 4080 01:53:38,479 --> 01:53:41,920 Like we have a team now that's managing things and it's taking care of things. 4081 01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:44,309 And so I get to focus on sales. 4082 01:53:44,309 --> 01:53:49,340 I get to focus on growth to becoming internal again. 4083 01:53:49,420 --> 01:53:49,719 And, 4084 01:53:49,719 --> 01:53:50,449 you know, 4085 01:53:50,449 --> 01:53:53,619 going through that cycle and realizing, 4086 01:53:53,619 --> 01:53:54,530 you know, 4087 01:53:54,530 --> 01:53:54,870 yes, 4088 01:53:54,869 --> 01:53:59,719 the company grew faster with me looking externally. 4089 01:53:59,719 --> 01:54:04,920 We got partnerships that we otherwise would not have gotten with me focusing externally. 4090 01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:06,250 At the same time, 4091 01:54:06,250 --> 01:54:13,000 like now there are like internal problems that have to be sorted out. 4092 01:54:13,039 --> 01:54:13,489 And, 4093 01:54:13,489 --> 01:54:14,300 you know, 4094 01:54:14,300 --> 01:54:17,440 I think like one of the important things, 4095 01:54:17,440 --> 01:54:21,760 one of the important things to remember as the founder is that at the end of the day, 4096 01:54:21,760 --> 01:54:25,250 you still kind of have to do everything like, 4097 01:54:25,250 --> 01:54:26,329 you know, 4098 01:54:26,329 --> 01:54:26,930 you like, 4099 01:54:26,930 --> 01:54:27,480 look, 4100 01:54:27,479 --> 01:54:34,039 we have a lot of really good people on the team that like make it so that I don't have to worry about X, 4101 01:54:34,039 --> 01:54:34,550 Y, 4102 01:54:34,550 --> 01:54:35,139 Z. 4103 01:54:35,139 --> 01:54:36,359 And so I don't mean like, 4104 01:54:36,360 --> 01:54:36,610 oh, 4105 01:54:36,610 --> 01:54:37,140 I'm like, 4106 01:54:37,139 --> 01:54:39,199 I'm not writing contracts anymore. 4107 01:54:39,199 --> 01:54:41,170 But you're the catch all for anything that doesn't, 4108 01:54:41,170 --> 01:54:42,069 that needs to get done, 4109 01:54:42,069 --> 01:54:43,779 that doesn't get done. 4110 01:54:43,780 --> 01:54:44,060 Right. 4111 01:54:44,059 --> 01:54:44,619 The thing is, 4112 01:54:44,619 --> 01:54:44,989 is like, 4113 01:54:44,989 --> 01:54:46,840 if you leave even good people, 4114 01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:52,130 if you leave them completely alone internally to sort of do their own thing, 4115 01:54:52,130 --> 01:54:53,500 they do it and they, 4116 01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:57,280 they go in like the direction that they think that it should go. 4117 01:54:57,280 --> 01:55:06,060 And if you're not constantly providing like that strategic direction and making sure that everybody in the org is pointed in the same direction, 4118 01:55:06,059 --> 01:55:08,239 people end up going in their own direction. 4119 01:55:08,239 --> 01:55:08,670 Right. 4120 01:55:08,670 --> 01:55:09,360 That does, 4121 01:55:09,360 --> 01:55:10,460 that does happen. 4122 01:55:10,460 --> 01:55:10,780 And I mean, 4123 01:55:10,780 --> 01:55:11,489 I could point to, 4124 01:55:11,489 --> 01:55:11,800 you know, 4125 01:55:11,800 --> 01:55:13,940 so many examples where that has happened. 4126 01:55:13,940 --> 01:55:14,800 Yeah. 4127 01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:15,819 And so I think it's, 4128 01:55:15,819 --> 01:55:17,459 it's one of those things where it's, 4129 01:55:17,460 --> 01:55:19,059 it's cycled through. 4130 01:55:19,059 --> 01:55:19,449 And I think, 4131 01:55:19,449 --> 01:55:19,850 you know, 4132 01:55:19,850 --> 01:55:20,290 for me now, 4133 01:55:20,289 --> 01:55:20,739 like it's, 4134 01:55:20,739 --> 01:55:21,729 it's coming back to like, 4135 01:55:21,729 --> 01:55:23,679 I need to be more involved internally. 4136 01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:24,170 Right. 4137 01:55:24,170 --> 01:55:27,780 Make sure that everything's pointing in the right direction. 4138 01:55:27,780 --> 01:55:28,260 And I'm sure that, 4139 01:55:28,260 --> 01:55:28,590 you know, 4140 01:55:28,590 --> 01:55:28,920 you know, 4141 01:55:28,920 --> 01:55:29,250 give it a, 4142 01:55:29,250 --> 01:55:30,280 give it another few months. 4143 01:55:30,280 --> 01:55:31,380 I'll be like, 4144 01:55:31,380 --> 01:55:33,199 I need to be external. 4145 01:55:33,199 --> 01:55:34,010 I need to, 4146 01:55:34,010 --> 01:55:35,039 you know. 4147 01:55:35,170 --> 01:55:35,280 I know. 4148 01:55:35,280 --> 01:55:35,560 I've definitely, 4149 01:55:35,559 --> 01:55:37,170 I definitely resonate with that. 4150 01:55:37,170 --> 01:55:37,690 Yeah. 4151 01:55:37,690 --> 01:55:39,430 I mean like even with the folks, 4152 01:55:39,430 --> 01:55:40,760 the best intentions, 4153 01:55:40,760 --> 01:55:42,010 like the best people, 4154 01:55:42,010 --> 01:55:42,889 like it left, 4155 01:55:42,889 --> 01:55:45,239 like without left to their own devices, 4156 01:55:45,239 --> 01:55:50,319 they will on their own unintentionally start rowing and like opposing directions. 4157 01:55:50,319 --> 01:55:52,489 Like just give it enough time and it's not, 4158 01:55:52,489 --> 01:55:54,319 it's not that they're not good at what they do. 4159 01:55:54,319 --> 01:55:54,949 It's not like, 4160 01:55:54,949 --> 01:55:55,199 it's, 4161 01:55:55,199 --> 01:55:56,920 it's just that like you, 4162 01:55:56,920 --> 01:56:01,039 like there constantly needs to be strategic direction. 4163 01:56:01,039 --> 01:56:03,130 And without that, 4164 01:56:03,170 --> 01:56:03,809 you know, 4165 01:56:03,809 --> 01:56:04,309 people, 4166 01:56:04,309 --> 01:56:04,799 yeah. 4167 01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:05,539 Like you said, 4168 01:56:05,539 --> 01:56:07,280 people go opposite directions. 4169 01:56:07,280 --> 01:56:08,320 Right. 4170 01:56:08,319 --> 01:56:10,989 Do you have any sense of imposter syndrome? 4171 01:56:10,989 --> 01:56:14,860 Like with how far you've come and like where you are today, 4172 01:56:14,860 --> 01:56:17,480 do you feel any sense of that? 4173 01:56:17,479 --> 01:56:18,129 Not really, 4174 01:56:18,130 --> 01:56:18,719 not anymore. 4175 01:56:18,719 --> 01:56:21,359 I did for a while, 4176 01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:25,110 but not anymore. 4177 01:56:25,110 --> 01:56:26,239 Increase that confidence. 4178 01:56:26,239 --> 01:56:26,360 Shit. 4179 01:56:26,360 --> 01:56:28,880 You gotta increase that confidence, 4180 01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:29,979 baby. 4181 01:56:29,979 --> 01:56:30,779 No, 4182 01:56:30,780 --> 01:56:32,340 I mean, 4183 01:56:32,340 --> 01:56:34,139 I think, 4184 01:56:34,139 --> 01:56:36,879 I think like, 4185 01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:37,210 yeah, 4186 01:56:37,210 --> 01:56:37,590 I mean, 4187 01:56:37,590 --> 01:56:38,729 I think that it's like, 4188 01:56:38,729 --> 01:56:41,219 especially if you're young when you're doing this, 4189 01:56:41,219 --> 01:56:42,399 like it's very easy. 4190 01:56:42,399 --> 01:56:43,099 It's very, 4191 01:56:43,100 --> 01:56:46,540 I think anybody that doesn't develop that like in their early twenties, 4192 01:56:46,539 --> 01:56:47,110 if they're, 4193 01:56:47,110 --> 01:56:51,640 if they're building this stuff in their early twenties is lying. 4194 01:56:51,639 --> 01:56:52,199 I mean, 4195 01:56:52,199 --> 01:56:52,760 for us, 4196 01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:53,479 you know, 4197 01:56:53,479 --> 01:56:54,039 I mean, 4198 01:56:54,039 --> 01:56:56,340 we raised our series A, 4199 01:56:56,340 --> 01:56:57,670 I was what, 4200 01:56:57,670 --> 01:56:59,329 23. 4201 01:56:59,329 --> 01:57:00,110 Right. 4202 01:57:00,110 --> 01:57:01,739 And so like, 4203 01:57:01,739 --> 01:57:02,680 yeah, 4204 01:57:02,680 --> 01:57:03,560 I mean, 4205 01:57:03,559 --> 01:57:04,849 you know, 4206 01:57:04,850 --> 01:57:05,720 yeah, 4207 01:57:05,719 --> 01:57:07,840 you definitely, 4208 01:57:07,840 --> 01:57:17,329 you definitely end up with that sense. 4209 01:57:17,329 --> 01:57:19,199 I think the, 4210 01:57:19,199 --> 01:57:21,739 the best way out of it is to continue to grow. 4211 01:57:21,739 --> 01:57:22,000 Right. 4212 01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:23,719 And for the company to continue to do well. 4213 01:57:23,719 --> 01:57:26,629 And as the company has continued to do well over time, 4214 01:57:26,630 --> 01:57:29,399 you start to see a trend where, 4215 01:57:29,399 --> 01:57:30,010 you know, 4216 01:57:30,010 --> 01:57:30,649 again, 4217 01:57:30,649 --> 01:57:33,819 if it's like a bunch of rocket ships going up, 4218 01:57:33,819 --> 01:57:34,449 you know, 4219 01:57:34,449 --> 01:57:38,500 some of them will kind of sputter or slow down and like you're left and there's, 4220 01:57:38,500 --> 01:57:39,159 there's fewer, 4221 01:57:39,159 --> 01:57:39,579 you know, 4222 01:57:39,579 --> 01:57:40,199 rocket ships, 4223 01:57:40,199 --> 01:57:40,719 right. 4224 01:57:40,719 --> 01:57:42,239 That make it to that altitude. 4225 01:57:42,239 --> 01:57:43,130 And I think like, 4226 01:57:43,130 --> 01:57:46,559 as you continue to look around and see that it's like, 4227 01:57:46,559 --> 01:57:47,139 Oh shit. 4228 01:57:47,139 --> 01:57:47,599 Okay. 4229 01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:49,440 Like I'm still going like, 4230 01:57:49,440 --> 01:57:50,520 you know, 4231 01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:51,390 there's no like, 4232 01:57:51,389 --> 01:57:52,199 you know, 4233 01:57:52,199 --> 01:57:52,500 yeah, 4234 01:57:52,500 --> 01:57:53,050 there's no, 4235 01:57:53,050 --> 01:57:53,719 I don't know. 4236 01:57:53,719 --> 01:57:55,199 There's no imposter. 4237 01:57:55,199 --> 01:57:55,340 So there, 4238 01:57:55,340 --> 01:57:56,920 there shouldn't be the imposter syndrome. 4239 01:57:56,920 --> 01:57:57,329 It's like, 4240 01:57:57,329 --> 01:57:57,659 yeah, 4241 01:57:57,659 --> 01:57:58,639 we're still going. 4242 01:57:58,639 --> 01:57:59,029 And I, 4243 01:57:59,030 --> 01:57:59,810 I don't know, 4244 01:57:59,809 --> 01:58:01,000 at least for me, 4245 01:58:01,000 --> 01:58:03,680 like growing out of it was the only way to get out of it. 4246 01:58:03,680 --> 01:58:04,170 Yeah. 4247 01:58:04,170 --> 01:58:06,569 I sense myself slowly edging out of it. 4248 01:58:06,569 --> 01:58:07,840 Like I'm 26 now, 4249 01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:08,489 but like, 4250 01:58:08,489 --> 01:58:08,819 boy, 4251 01:58:08,819 --> 01:58:11,639 that imposter syndrome was pretty rough. 4252 01:58:11,639 --> 01:58:13,500 Still definitely have it. 4253 01:58:13,500 --> 01:58:13,639 Uh, 4254 01:58:13,639 --> 01:58:14,359 but yeah, 4255 01:58:14,360 --> 01:58:16,760 I mean as like with continued growth, 4256 01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:20,600 I can feel it slowly ebbing away almost too slow to notice. 4257 01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:21,800 Yes. 4258 01:58:21,800 --> 01:58:23,680 All right. 4259 01:58:23,680 --> 01:58:24,180 Well, 4260 01:58:24,180 --> 01:58:26,680 I think that's a good place to wrap it up. 4261 01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:30,690 It's been like wonderful having you on hearing about all your adventures, 4262 01:58:30,690 --> 01:58:30,980 uh, 4263 01:58:30,979 --> 01:58:33,799 like covered a lot of different topics. 4264 01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:37,340 And I think a lot of this stuff would have been really helpful for me to hear, 4265 01:58:37,340 --> 01:58:37,829 you know, 4266 01:58:37,829 --> 01:58:40,399 five years ago earlier on in the founder journey. 4267 01:58:40,399 --> 01:58:43,479 And that's the goal of this podcast to help, 4268 01:58:43,479 --> 01:58:44,170 you know, 4269 01:58:44,170 --> 01:58:52,119 young founders looking around the corner to know what's next and anyone looking to chase their dreams to like hear about the nuts and bolts of how it works. 4270 01:58:52,119 --> 01:58:52,590 I think, 4271 01:58:52,590 --> 01:58:55,020 I think we did a good job on covering a lot of that today. 4272 01:58:55,020 --> 01:58:58,120 It was so great having you on Chris. 4273 01:58:58,119 --> 01:58:59,050 Good to see you, 4274 01:58:59,050 --> 01:58:59,479 sir. 4275 01:58:59,479 --> 01:59:00,689 Appreciate it. 4276 01:59:00,690 --> 01:59:01,760 All right. 4277 01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:02,260 Take care.