1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:02,340 I am. 2 00:00:03,390 --> 00:00:04,920 And this is choosing leadership. 3 00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:09,510 A podcast for high performers, with big dreams at work and life. 4 00:00:10,380 --> 00:00:14,280 This is a podcast for people who know deep inside that there is more. 5 00:00:15,450 --> 00:00:17,369 Have you achieved a great deal of success? 6 00:00:17,759 --> 00:00:21,090 But on the inside, you still feel empty and like an imposter. 7 00:00:22,050 --> 00:00:24,270 Do other people see you as a strong leader? 8 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:28,650 And you wonder why it still feels so lonely and suffocating. 9 00:00:29,339 --> 00:00:34,289 The aim of this podcast is not to provide you more content, but instead shift 10 00:00:34,289 --> 00:00:35,849 the context under which you operate. 11 00:00:36,359 --> 00:00:40,199 I dare to speak to the tremendous power, which you already have 12 00:00:40,319 --> 00:00:41,609 rather than what you believe. 13 00:00:42,029 --> 00:00:43,769 Are your strengths and limitations. 14 00:00:44,459 --> 00:00:47,489 This podcast is called choosing leadership because that is 15 00:00:47,489 --> 00:00:49,529 what leadership is a choice. 16 00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:52,306 And this is the leadership journey, CDs. 17 00:00:52,936 --> 00:00:56,806 I am interviewing leaders with an interesting story to learn how 18 00:00:56,806 --> 00:00:58,036 they got where they are today. 19 00:00:58,576 --> 00:01:01,396 We all have a lot to learn from each other's stories. 20 00:01:01,936 --> 00:01:02,476 Of Viet. 21 00:01:02,506 --> 00:01:04,096 We started very veer now. 22 00:01:04,486 --> 00:01:06,736 And over successes and struggles on the V. 23 00:01:07,216 --> 00:01:09,406 With this series of interviews, my attempt. 24 00:01:09,886 --> 00:01:13,996 Is to give leaders an opportunity to share their stories and for all of us 25 00:01:14,026 --> 00:01:19,338 to learn from their genders sharing John feather B is the founder of short 26 00:01:19,338 --> 00:01:23,718 Mount and award-winning consenting form, which helps organizations be more 27 00:01:23,718 --> 00:01:28,968 human, purposeful, and adaptable for the challenges of the 21st century. 28 00:01:29,688 --> 00:01:34,008 He is also an ambassador at B lab and part of the B Corp movement, which 29 00:01:34,008 --> 00:01:39,198 is the world's leading business as a force for good movement redefining 30 00:01:39,198 --> 00:01:40,428 the role of business in society. 31 00:01:41,573 --> 00:01:46,793 In the interview, John talks about how can we make work a place where people can seek 32 00:01:47,183 --> 00:01:52,733 and find dignity, uncover who they are and find joy in everything that they do. 33 00:01:53,003 --> 00:01:58,493 In addition to just making a living, he opens up about his faith, about our tricky 34 00:01:58,493 --> 00:02:00,743 relationship with money and iShares. 35 00:02:00,743 --> 00:02:03,353 What he does today is the reason why he is here. 36 00:02:04,163 --> 00:02:08,453 He also talks about the importance of having people to lean back. 37 00:02:09,368 --> 00:02:13,388 And also the importance of celebration in the context of leadership. 38 00:02:14,428 --> 00:02:14,998 Hi, John. 39 00:02:15,898 --> 00:02:16,468 Good afternoon. 40 00:02:17,198 --> 00:02:19,268 . Welcome to the choosing leadership podcast. 41 00:02:19,748 --> 00:02:20,978 We are very happy to be here summit. 42 00:02:22,138 --> 00:02:24,688 I'm glad to have you here and for our listeners. 43 00:02:24,688 --> 00:02:28,438 Can you share a little bit about who you are before we start and what do you do? 44 00:02:29,218 --> 00:02:29,878 Yeah, sure. 45 00:02:29,947 --> 00:02:30,457 Who am I? 46 00:02:30,457 --> 00:02:31,537 What a complex question. 47 00:02:31,567 --> 00:02:31,897 Good one. 48 00:02:31,917 --> 00:02:34,242 Start with so yeah, my John Jones. 49 00:02:35,422 --> 00:02:39,412 I have the good fortune to, in my case, be married. 50 00:02:39,412 --> 00:02:41,822 I have four children eight to 14. 51 00:02:41,849 --> 00:02:43,799 Brings its own beauty and its challenges. 52 00:02:43,846 --> 00:02:48,696 I live in a kind of rural part of England, just north of London. 53 00:02:48,846 --> 00:02:53,484 So out in the countryside, that's why I I love just love spending time outdoors. 54 00:02:53,484 --> 00:02:58,009 So it's good for me out here and really for for my whole life. 55 00:02:58,009 --> 00:03:03,259 I've been connected to conversations about business as a force for 56 00:03:03,259 --> 00:03:07,018 good, but I've been focused on it, full-time professionally. 57 00:03:08,053 --> 00:03:09,613 I don't know, 10, 10 to 15 years. 58 00:03:10,513 --> 00:03:10,963 Wonderful. 59 00:03:11,623 --> 00:03:15,538 So can you share how you, how came to be doing what you're doing today, or 60 00:03:15,808 --> 00:03:19,948 is there any particular event or events which happened, which shaped you or shaped 61 00:03:19,948 --> 00:03:21,586 your views around work and business? 62 00:03:22,156 --> 00:03:24,556 Yeah, for me, yeah. 63 00:03:24,603 --> 00:03:26,418 Some people have singular events for me. 64 00:03:26,418 --> 00:03:27,262 I grew up around it. 65 00:03:27,262 --> 00:03:30,602 So my parents, my father was a corporate lawyer. 66 00:03:30,635 --> 00:03:35,717 But in his sort of free time, my parents led by the sort of Christian. 67 00:03:36,917 --> 00:03:42,360 Both felt very strongly about the fact that work or money business had lost its 68 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,620 way a bit and that how you made money really mattered and what businesses 69 00:03:46,620 --> 00:03:48,300 role in society really mattered. 70 00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:53,388 So during the sort of nineties and early noughties they would travel 71 00:03:53,388 --> 00:03:56,538 around the country to talk about these things and I'd follow them or 72 00:03:57,258 --> 00:04:00,468 more particularly at home, we would have a lot of discussions around the. 73 00:04:00,539 --> 00:04:07,038 Supper table about the importance of money and but more, particularly less about 74 00:04:07,038 --> 00:04:11,494 money, more just about the concept of work and enterprise and what businesses 75 00:04:11,594 --> 00:04:13,184 could, should, or shouldn't do. 76 00:04:13,694 --> 00:04:18,431 So by the time I left home, I didn't really realize it, but I'd been 77 00:04:18,431 --> 00:04:23,351 soaked in this philosophy about a better way of thinking about business 78 00:04:23,351 --> 00:04:24,881 than the status quo was before. 79 00:04:25,398 --> 00:04:29,886 And then watch them, kickstart some of the things we're seeing 80 00:04:29,886 --> 00:04:31,476 now, like impact investing. 81 00:04:31,476 --> 00:04:35,796 And my parents were the first social impact bond investors in the UK. 82 00:04:37,026 --> 00:04:40,665 And that that I just realized then when I was in my mid twenties, 83 00:04:41,325 --> 00:04:44,502 that this is why I wanted to give my time and life to as well. 84 00:04:44,546 --> 00:04:49,802 This question about how do we kind of rescue the company in a way and provide 85 00:04:49,802 --> 00:04:54,972 a place where people can seek and find dignity and who they are and joy and what 86 00:04:54,972 --> 00:04:56,839 they do, and as well as making a living. 87 00:04:56,854 --> 00:04:59,632 Yeah, it's and then obviously during that, during the time I had. 88 00:05:00,937 --> 00:05:04,417 It's been something I've wanted to go after every now and again, you have these 89 00:05:04,417 --> 00:05:07,087 experiences that kind of really hit home. 90 00:05:07,537 --> 00:05:09,007 Oh, this is why I do this. 91 00:05:09,063 --> 00:05:12,363 This is why I get up and do this is why despite the pain I keep 92 00:05:12,363 --> 00:05:13,856 going or, whatever it might be. 93 00:05:14,006 --> 00:05:16,771 But that's the kind of big picture, of why I did it. 94 00:05:16,831 --> 00:05:17,041 Why. 95 00:05:18,286 --> 00:05:18,586 Yeah. 96 00:05:18,616 --> 00:05:21,076 . And you used a very interesting word rescue. 97 00:05:21,786 --> 00:05:23,656 You shared a little bit about that. 98 00:05:23,684 --> 00:05:24,493 What is it? 99 00:05:24,613 --> 00:05:29,143 What's the new philosophy or the different philosophy that you have brought on. 100 00:05:29,143 --> 00:05:33,013 And also since you mentioned about a long time ago, like when, in the 101 00:05:33,013 --> 00:05:37,033 time of your parents, how has worked changed or how is work evolving, let's 102 00:05:37,033 --> 00:05:40,882 say in the last few decades and where is it going in the next few decades? 103 00:05:41,052 --> 00:05:42,352 What are your thoughts about that? 104 00:05:42,832 --> 00:05:43,432 Yeah, sure. 105 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:47,037 I guess going back in time and then even further back beyond my parents, 106 00:05:47,937 --> 00:05:52,317 I saw some of the things we're talking about in terms of how an organization 107 00:05:52,317 --> 00:05:57,957 should now be run and the values and the culture that companies should instill. 108 00:05:58,497 --> 00:06:00,207 They're not all necessarily new. 109 00:06:00,207 --> 00:06:05,116 I think it's more that we lost our way and we forgot, what was important 110 00:06:05,176 --> 00:06:10,586 or we separated what we felt was important from what we actually did. 111 00:06:10,976 --> 00:06:14,546 It's very common to come across people who almost live two lives. 112 00:06:14,603 --> 00:06:18,683 They have their personal values and the way they think life should be run 113 00:06:18,683 --> 00:06:23,813 and what they do, but they behave in or taking decisions in a very different way. 114 00:06:23,813 --> 00:06:25,313 When you put them in a big, shiny corporate. 115 00:06:25,325 --> 00:06:27,258 And I, so I think how has it changed? 116 00:06:27,258 --> 00:06:30,051 I think it's particularly the last few years, it's the 117 00:06:30,051 --> 00:06:31,821 momentum has changed enormously. 118 00:06:31,849 --> 00:06:36,415 If you wanted to talk about discussions about ethics of business in the 119 00:06:36,415 --> 00:06:39,591 nineties, where, not just seen as relevant, they were re pushed up. 120 00:06:40,761 --> 00:06:43,932 And people had got into a rhythm of doing things. 121 00:06:43,932 --> 00:06:47,988 It was post the eighties when, the capital markets expanded a lot. 122 00:06:47,988 --> 00:06:52,548 And I think I just, it wasn't just business as well. 123 00:06:52,548 --> 00:06:53,418 That had a problem with it. 124 00:06:53,418 --> 00:06:58,304 As, NGOs and B large charities had their place in the world 125 00:06:58,634 --> 00:07:00,661 and, small businesses, the enemy. 126 00:07:00,789 --> 00:07:04,770 The church and other, other, I think other faiths, there was 127 00:07:04,770 --> 00:07:07,050 this problem, money was flawed or. 128 00:07:07,119 --> 00:07:11,150 Weren't interested in your job, job was something that happens separately to that 129 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:12,830 part of that spiritual side of your life. 130 00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:16,362 And I think there was just a sort of few people saying hang 131 00:07:16,362 --> 00:07:20,502 on a second, we all actually have something positive to share here. 132 00:07:20,502 --> 00:07:22,782 That sort of almost in the middle of that Venn diagram. 133 00:07:23,862 --> 00:07:26,692 And most of us spend most of our life at work. 134 00:07:28,012 --> 00:07:29,482 So it is a question that should matter. 135 00:07:30,502 --> 00:07:33,096 So I think the work that I've been involved in terms of seeing. 136 00:07:33,607 --> 00:07:39,735 A lot of it has been connecting individuals into groups or whatever, to 137 00:07:39,735 --> 00:07:44,985 have discussions about what you know, who you ask at the beginning, who you 138 00:07:44,985 --> 00:07:46,815 really know what really matters to you. 139 00:07:47,355 --> 00:07:48,735 Are you really fulfilled? 140 00:07:48,735 --> 00:07:51,525 Do you think the people that you're running an organization, do you think 141 00:07:51,525 --> 00:07:55,758 that people who work for you are fully alive, are they flourishing 142 00:07:55,758 --> 00:07:56,868 or is this something they do? 143 00:07:56,868 --> 00:07:57,138 And then. 144 00:07:58,143 --> 00:08:01,781 They go home and they recover over the weekend to go back to Monday to Friday. 145 00:08:03,141 --> 00:08:06,659 I think I'd say, we've seen some step changes, but obviously I think 146 00:08:06,659 --> 00:08:12,509 the pandemic has accelerated this question around that people wants to 147 00:08:12,509 --> 00:08:13,979 do meaningful things with their time. 148 00:08:14,999 --> 00:08:18,088 And so I think that the company of the future is going to be quite 149 00:08:18,088 --> 00:08:21,308 different, but for a number of different reasons, not just meaningful work, 150 00:08:21,376 --> 00:08:23,526 The family structure has changed. 151 00:08:23,621 --> 00:08:28,841 People who goes to work has changed and digital, the 152 00:08:28,901 --> 00:08:30,371 digital landscape has changed. 153 00:08:30,399 --> 00:08:32,055 The regulatory landscape is changing. 154 00:08:32,505 --> 00:08:36,135 Almost everything has changed except for the structure of a company. 155 00:08:37,185 --> 00:08:40,725 And so that is increasingly intentioned and with the way that the pace at 156 00:08:40,725 --> 00:08:45,446 which the world moves, what people are seeking the need to reintegrate. 157 00:08:46,226 --> 00:08:49,076 Companies with their various stakeholders. 158 00:08:49,886 --> 00:08:51,506 So there's an awakening going on. 159 00:08:51,506 --> 00:08:56,336 Around how interdependent organizations and people are. 160 00:08:56,816 --> 00:09:01,102 And, a very rampant individualism has made people feel like I 161 00:09:01,102 --> 00:09:02,871 can force my will on the world. 162 00:09:03,471 --> 00:09:07,438 And the companies have felt the same, but I think are increasingly finding 163 00:09:07,438 --> 00:09:08,488 that it's not quite as forward. 164 00:09:09,388 --> 00:09:11,428 And you're not quite as in control as you thought. 165 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,086 So it's, it's hard to know where it will end up, but I think it's quite 166 00:09:15,096 --> 00:09:19,896 exciting time for well sighted people like me to be involved in, because it 167 00:09:19,896 --> 00:09:21,456 feels like we're starting to bear fruit. 168 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:22,836 Yeah. 169 00:09:23,166 --> 00:09:25,836 And you spoke about money and also about the church. 170 00:09:25,866 --> 00:09:30,006 Can you share a little bit about some of those ideas, maybe, which we have 171 00:09:30,006 --> 00:09:32,436 outgrown about money or about capitalism 172 00:09:32,886 --> 00:09:36,425 yeah, I think historically, sometimes there was a view that kind of certainly 173 00:09:36,425 --> 00:09:40,801 in some spiritual communities that money was fundamentally evil or, there 174 00:09:40,801 --> 00:09:43,441 was something fundamentally wrong with money and it was always going to 175 00:09:43,441 --> 00:09:47,774 tarnish that the people who had it as opposed to the idea that it's not the 176 00:09:47,774 --> 00:09:49,453 money itself, that's often a problem. 177 00:09:49,484 --> 00:09:52,644 It's a question of the heart, . Is it what you're in pursuit of and your, 178 00:09:52,644 --> 00:09:54,431 what your organization is trying to do? 179 00:09:54,501 --> 00:09:59,569 So my company, our sort of tagline, as a purpose is to restore joy, meaning 180 00:09:59,569 --> 00:10:00,829 and freedom to every workplace. 181 00:10:01,519 --> 00:10:05,159 And, we constantly in pursuit of that or are we trying to make lots of money? 182 00:10:05,159 --> 00:10:07,020 And sometimes, the two are in conflict. 183 00:10:07,050 --> 00:10:07,540 What are you going to do? 184 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:11,572 So I think it's starting to see money as a tool, as opposed to something 185 00:10:11,572 --> 00:10:13,544 that you have rather than it has you. 186 00:10:13,568 --> 00:10:16,291 I think, and then you start to get into conversations about 187 00:10:16,291 --> 00:10:17,564 how do we choose to invest? 188 00:10:17,564 --> 00:10:19,164 How do we use money more wisely? 189 00:10:19,211 --> 00:10:24,821 How can we redirect its energy and power in a positive direction as opposed to 190 00:10:24,821 --> 00:10:26,381 just being captured by it all the time. 191 00:10:27,401 --> 00:10:31,750 And obviously money also has this sort of knock-on effect about who am 192 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:33,760 I being a question of the materialism. 193 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,198 I might have things I own the brands I wear, all that. 194 00:10:38,198 --> 00:10:42,167 And sometimes that some of it is craftsmanship and, you pay good 195 00:10:42,167 --> 00:10:43,247 money because of how it's made. 196 00:10:43,247 --> 00:10:48,017 And sometimes it's just inflated value because of what you think 197 00:10:48,017 --> 00:10:49,487 it gives you in terms of identity. 198 00:10:50,447 --> 00:10:52,502 So I think that's taking some unraveling as well. 199 00:10:52,562 --> 00:10:55,444 So there's I don't think when I started moving out of capitalism I think 200 00:10:55,444 --> 00:10:58,834 trade has always been part of the human experience and it always will 201 00:10:58,834 --> 00:11:03,400 be, but I think we are perhaps moving beyond the sort of obsession with 202 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:08,549 consumerism and material identification, and that will have an impact on the 203 00:11:08,549 --> 00:11:10,245 economy, but it could shift into. 204 00:11:10,695 --> 00:11:11,025 Yeah. 205 00:11:11,355 --> 00:11:14,845 And as you do this work in companies, in organizations what is it that you 206 00:11:14,845 --> 00:11:18,685 find most challenging, especially when you bump up against these old ideas, 207 00:11:18,695 --> 00:11:22,480 which are still very entrenched and many times on a subconscious level. 208 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:23,170 Yeah. 209 00:11:24,385 --> 00:11:26,545 The most challenging thing is always the people. 210 00:11:26,631 --> 00:11:31,011 This, in a sense that a lot of this is much more personal than 211 00:11:31,011 --> 00:11:33,471 people want to realize or accept. 212 00:11:33,681 --> 00:11:38,541 It's very easy to go into a company and sell the idea of change in the context of 213 00:11:39,171 --> 00:11:42,921 let's change the management structure or let's rewrite the performance management 214 00:11:42,951 --> 00:11:47,167 system or appraisals or whatever it might be, write new policies, all that stuff. 215 00:11:48,652 --> 00:11:54,142 It whilst it often needs doing is the easy thing to do because 216 00:11:54,142 --> 00:11:55,903 it's outlet, it's not me. 217 00:11:55,915 --> 00:11:57,915 It's a structural thing that we can fiddle with. 218 00:11:58,635 --> 00:12:03,066 But ultimately the real problem is in people it's in their heart and souls 219 00:12:03,066 --> 00:12:04,668 and that spirit, why do I do this? 220 00:12:04,668 --> 00:12:05,538 What matters to me? 221 00:12:05,538 --> 00:12:06,948 How am I going to treat people? 222 00:12:07,218 --> 00:12:08,868 What level of courage do I have? 223 00:12:09,498 --> 00:12:11,418 How much sacrifice could I cope with? 224 00:12:11,485 --> 00:12:15,915 The real work is the hard work and we're so used to the problem. 225 00:12:16,845 --> 00:12:17,775 Over there. 226 00:12:18,255 --> 00:12:22,011 They actually getting particularly leadership sometimes to stop to stop 227 00:12:22,041 --> 00:12:26,301 trying to control and manage and be in average, it'd be in every decision and 228 00:12:26,301 --> 00:12:32,661 actually do some work on themselves and make room to think and to stop. 229 00:12:32,699 --> 00:12:35,485 Sometimes that can be quite frightening for people because they don't like they 230 00:12:35,485 --> 00:12:36,834 don't want to stop because they know. 231 00:12:36,834 --> 00:12:39,879 If I stop and start thinking about myself, where I'm at, I'd rather not, 232 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:44,099 so the hard part is always the mindset is the heart and the mind cause you 233 00:12:44,099 --> 00:12:49,109 could walk into a company and give them data on why this is good all day long. 234 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,309 That does not mean a board is going to do it because ultimately people 235 00:12:53,309 --> 00:12:57,509 are making choices on well, they're used to a certain way and their heart 236 00:12:57,509 --> 00:12:58,979 and mind is set on a certain thing. 237 00:12:59,639 --> 00:13:00,931 So that's always the difference. 238 00:13:00,931 --> 00:13:04,966 But the difficult bit is as always, of course, always a bit worth doing. 239 00:13:04,966 --> 00:13:09,586 It's like going to the gym, it's not fun sometimes it's horrible, but 240 00:13:09,586 --> 00:13:11,089 that's, that it's the bit that matters. 241 00:13:11,139 --> 00:13:13,821 So yeah that that's the hardest part. 242 00:13:14,571 --> 00:13:14,991 Yeah. 243 00:13:15,164 --> 00:13:19,108 . And the gym example is quite quite good because I think that's 244 00:13:19,108 --> 00:13:22,288 a wonderful analogy also to. 245 00:13:23,608 --> 00:13:26,068 We're building strength in an area where you are usually 246 00:13:26,098 --> 00:13:27,718 weak and that it takes time. 247 00:13:27,718 --> 00:13:29,709 It doesn't happen like all night. 248 00:13:29,759 --> 00:13:29,969 . Yeah. 249 00:13:30,057 --> 00:13:33,627 So just quickly on that metaphor, we sometimes use is a bit like going to 250 00:13:33,627 --> 00:13:39,234 the doctor, if you're, if you imagine an organization being a sick patient and 251 00:13:39,334 --> 00:13:41,449 it goes to see a doctor or a consultant. 252 00:13:41,449 --> 00:13:45,748 Typically a lot of consultants are very happy to give the organization 253 00:13:45,748 --> 00:13:50,581 pills sort of short-term fixes that makes it feel good and masks the pain. 254 00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:52,210 But it's not really solving underlying. 255 00:13:53,245 --> 00:13:56,905 Whereas actually, if you are not well and you go and see a doctor and they 256 00:13:56,905 --> 00:14:00,475 turn around and say, you need to sleep properly, you'd get more exercise. 257 00:14:00,543 --> 00:14:03,130 You need up, change your diets, et cetera, et cetera. 258 00:14:03,154 --> 00:14:07,244 That's actually what the person needs to do, but it's a lot more work. 259 00:14:07,664 --> 00:14:08,994 The doctor can't do it for you. 260 00:14:09,034 --> 00:14:10,424 It's going to take time. 261 00:14:10,469 --> 00:14:13,695 It's going to require commitment and it's not the same. 262 00:14:13,765 --> 00:14:17,955 You don't need to pills to, you might need some painkillers, but long term, 263 00:14:18,735 --> 00:14:22,095 if you really want to change, you're going to have to put in the effort. 264 00:14:22,395 --> 00:14:26,245 And that that's one of the challenges we have at the moment is everybody 265 00:14:26,245 --> 00:14:30,895 is rushing to change, but not really stopping to think about. 266 00:14:30,955 --> 00:14:34,225 How are we going to do that well, and how are we going to make that last? 267 00:14:35,305 --> 00:14:35,635 Yeah. 268 00:14:35,995 --> 00:14:39,925 And how do you navigate that challenge for yourself personally, as you're working 269 00:14:39,925 --> 00:14:44,545 with multiple companies, multiple people, and you see some of them like succeeding 270 00:14:44,584 --> 00:14:49,024 or making use of this and some of them struggling or not wanting to change. 271 00:14:49,024 --> 00:14:52,894 So how do you navigate that challenge personally for you? 272 00:14:53,584 --> 00:14:53,884 It 273 00:14:53,884 --> 00:14:57,367 can be difficult, it brings out the person of worse than you, I have a few people 274 00:14:57,367 --> 00:15:02,700 that I meet with regularly to process what I'm doing to hold me accountable 275 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:07,371 to my thinking to, I have a wife that's very good at encourage you to make sure 276 00:15:07,371 --> 00:15:09,487 I get exercise and I go to bed on time. 277 00:15:09,557 --> 00:15:13,397 Cause you, you need to be willing to have people in your life that will 278 00:15:13,397 --> 00:15:18,674 speak into what you're doing and say, summit, John sort yourself out, stop, 279 00:15:18,704 --> 00:15:19,836 put that down and go over there. 280 00:15:19,849 --> 00:15:22,279 I'm also quite intentional about taking time outs. 281 00:15:22,307 --> 00:15:23,646 Obviously I live in the countryside. 282 00:15:24,621 --> 00:15:28,401 Going and doing things that are different every now and ago, every now and again, 283 00:15:28,401 --> 00:15:33,351 I go somewhere else for a few days by myself and just get away from my 284 00:15:33,351 --> 00:15:37,510 everyday context, family or work or whatever, and spend some time thinking. 285 00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:42,446 I have a faith myself I do lean on that and have my kind of rituals or 286 00:15:42,446 --> 00:15:44,576 prayer or whatever that helps me feel. 287 00:15:45,326 --> 00:15:49,732 Grounded and connected, to a bigger story that I feel I can be part of. 288 00:15:49,799 --> 00:15:55,393 So I, but ultimately I feel really passionate about what I do, so that 289 00:15:55,393 --> 00:16:00,023 helps me get through when it can be difficult, because I feel what I'm 290 00:16:00,023 --> 00:16:02,423 doing with my time is why I'm here. 291 00:16:03,533 --> 00:16:05,243 And I think we're all here for a reason. 292 00:16:05,243 --> 00:16:07,304 And I, I think, I've found mine. 293 00:16:07,304 --> 00:16:08,728 And so I just, I'm working on. 294 00:16:08,807 --> 00:16:10,509 But it's not it's not always easy. 295 00:16:10,509 --> 00:16:14,625 And it can be very frustrating when it's mostly frustrating with 296 00:16:14,625 --> 00:16:20,475 people who are implementing changes and they're excited about it, 297 00:16:21,075 --> 00:16:22,462 but they're going about it wrong. 298 00:16:22,513 --> 00:16:25,436 But you can't reach them because they think they understand what they do. 299 00:16:25,486 --> 00:16:28,787 , but they can't see what they're doing is just putting on plasters. 300 00:16:28,817 --> 00:16:31,937 They're not really investing in the thinking they need to be doing that. 301 00:16:31,937 --> 00:16:36,247 That's probably the most difficult situation rather than people who, as 302 00:16:36,257 --> 00:16:40,186 often more difficult than people who don't want to do it because at least, where 303 00:16:40,216 --> 00:16:41,296 they live, they know where they stand. 304 00:16:41,296 --> 00:16:41,926 And so do you, 305 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:43,246 yeah. 306 00:16:44,361 --> 00:16:47,001 Two things, which you mentioned here, which is very relevant for 307 00:16:47,001 --> 00:16:51,801 any leader is one, is that sense of meaning, like you said, you're playing 308 00:16:51,801 --> 00:16:53,241 a role in that in a larger story. 309 00:16:53,241 --> 00:16:59,061 And I think having something larger than yourself is like the key to sustain 310 00:16:59,061 --> 00:17:00,861 yourself during those tough times. 311 00:17:00,861 --> 00:17:02,211 And also keep you. 312 00:17:02,301 --> 00:17:05,511 Passionate and energetic during the good times as well. 313 00:17:06,021 --> 00:17:06,261 Yeah. 314 00:17:06,681 --> 00:17:09,081 And the second thing you mentioned is having a support structure, 315 00:17:09,081 --> 00:17:10,311 like having a set of people. 316 00:17:10,821 --> 00:17:14,467 And this iPhone, very ironic because a lot of leaders I see 317 00:17:14,467 --> 00:17:16,066 that they try to do it all alone. 318 00:17:16,816 --> 00:17:18,916 What would I did they try to take a lot of weight on this? 319 00:17:19,966 --> 00:17:23,626 And not involve the people who are already around them, by 320 00:17:23,646 --> 00:17:27,876 definition, leadership is a job which requires people to be around you. 321 00:17:28,236 --> 00:17:30,036 But how ironic is that? 322 00:17:30,036 --> 00:17:33,725 That even despite that it feels a very lonely to most leaders. 323 00:17:34,175 --> 00:17:34,475 Yeah. 324 00:17:34,475 --> 00:17:36,450 It's, it is very lonely place. 325 00:17:36,464 --> 00:17:39,330 I'm, I'm not I'm not running a big organization or anything, 326 00:17:39,330 --> 00:17:42,522 but the more, the bigger that responsibility gets the lonelier. 327 00:17:42,835 --> 00:17:47,007 And with, it comes often comes more wealth and in the world's eyes, more 328 00:17:47,007 --> 00:17:50,487 power, but it can be extremely isolating. 329 00:17:50,667 --> 00:17:56,157 And unfortunately, because you have more wealth and more power, often the cases 330 00:17:56,157 --> 00:18:00,040 that people are less sympathetic because they think, oh you look at your life. 331 00:18:00,070 --> 00:18:00,760 You've got that. 332 00:18:00,813 --> 00:18:01,293 You're either. 333 00:18:02,223 --> 00:18:04,833 The enemy or you've got like lives good for you. 334 00:18:04,833 --> 00:18:06,713 So I'm not in, I'm not going to care about you. 335 00:18:07,163 --> 00:18:09,533 So I often find people in senior positions in those 336 00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:11,364 organizations, they really struggle. 337 00:18:11,364 --> 00:18:14,449 One thing I didn't say, which you said, which I should have done is 338 00:18:14,449 --> 00:18:18,294 also the importance of celebration, it is really important to. 339 00:18:19,234 --> 00:18:23,173 Even with the small things, to take time out, to feast and celebrate 340 00:18:23,173 --> 00:18:28,177 and find gratitude and joy and what you're doing a way you've got to, even 341 00:18:28,177 --> 00:18:31,715 if the big picture can be difficult celebrating, just being alive. 342 00:18:31,715 --> 00:18:34,835 And even if it's not material progress, but the big thing. 343 00:18:34,902 --> 00:18:35,112 . Yes. 344 00:18:35,112 --> 00:18:39,792 I think you spoke about you also and then celebration and gratitude and focusing 345 00:18:39,792 --> 00:18:43,572 on the positive are like some of the rituals, which I think are often missed 346 00:18:43,602 --> 00:18:48,042 because our brains are designed, to focus on the negative or what is not working. 347 00:18:48,402 --> 00:18:50,904 And then there's huge potential. 348 00:18:50,904 --> 00:18:54,594 If we just focus on and celebrate what is already. 349 00:18:55,374 --> 00:18:55,554 Yeah. 350 00:18:55,584 --> 00:18:56,494 Yeah, no, absolutely. 351 00:18:56,554 --> 00:18:56,734 Yeah. 352 00:18:56,796 --> 00:18:57,036 Said. 353 00:18:57,156 --> 00:18:57,436 Yeah. 354 00:18:57,505 --> 00:18:58,785 And just to shift gears, right? 355 00:18:58,815 --> 00:19:02,295 What is it that people misunderstand about you the most? 356 00:19:03,075 --> 00:19:04,175 What people on the standard? 357 00:19:04,203 --> 00:19:05,006 That's a good question. 358 00:19:05,075 --> 00:19:07,115 I guess that's the question that I'd love to know the answer to? 359 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:12,504 I quite like challenging the stereotype of who I am, I come from a particular 360 00:19:12,504 --> 00:19:17,604 background and, sometimes that means in some situations, people make assumptions 361 00:19:17,604 --> 00:19:19,014 about how you're going to see the world. 362 00:19:20,424 --> 00:19:24,873 And I enjoy sometimes disrupting those and then being surprised at 363 00:19:24,873 --> 00:19:27,903 what my perspective on something might be or what I might say. 364 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,760 Yeah, I think that probably, I don't know, maybe that's changing as I get older too. 365 00:19:32,510 --> 00:19:36,320 What people misunderstand about me, but what a good question. 366 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:36,770 I don't know. 367 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:39,800 Maybe I don't want some, maybe I don't want to know the answers that 368 00:19:40,910 --> 00:19:41,060 . Yeah. 369 00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:42,920 We all have those spots. 370 00:19:42,954 --> 00:19:46,237 I think we would rather avoid what can also be very like 371 00:19:46,251 --> 00:19:48,010 enlightening places to, to learn and 372 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:48,260 grow. 373 00:19:48,299 --> 00:19:51,596 Maybe I should ask my kind of I guess I was going to say, ask about the 374 00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:52,796 group of people I meet with regularly. 375 00:19:54,086 --> 00:19:57,056 If they have assumptions about me that are wrong, then they might 376 00:19:57,056 --> 00:19:58,076 not know that they're wrong. 377 00:19:58,125 --> 00:19:59,788 That's the difficulty of asking the question, but yeah. 378 00:20:00,388 --> 00:20:00,778 Good one too. 379 00:20:01,708 --> 00:20:02,098 Yes. 380 00:20:02,128 --> 00:20:02,548 Yes. 381 00:20:03,088 --> 00:20:03,478 Yeah. 382 00:20:03,598 --> 00:20:07,468 And I, the way I see questions, I think the best questions have no answers and 383 00:20:07,468 --> 00:20:11,948 discussions like continue to be questions, even if you find an answer to them. 384 00:20:11,948 --> 00:20:15,508 And I think that's what often is missing, like in organizations 385 00:20:15,508 --> 00:20:16,708 as well, that we are too. 386 00:20:17,503 --> 00:20:19,753 Rush to find the answer and then implement. 387 00:20:19,903 --> 00:20:22,362 And sometimes we miss a lot because of that rush. 388 00:20:22,512 --> 00:20:22,812 Yeah. 389 00:20:22,912 --> 00:20:23,152 Yeah. 390 00:20:23,382 --> 00:20:23,632 Yeah. 391 00:20:23,682 --> 00:20:27,321 Can you share a time when somebody had a big influence on how you see 392 00:20:27,321 --> 00:20:29,186 the world of work or leadership? 393 00:20:29,199 --> 00:20:32,509 And if there is anything specific, which they said always they did. 394 00:20:32,959 --> 00:20:33,259 Yeah. 395 00:20:33,292 --> 00:20:34,342 I have a. 396 00:20:35,092 --> 00:20:38,656 I guess I have a number of mentors some who are real in 397 00:20:38,656 --> 00:20:39,885 the sense that they're people. 398 00:20:39,885 --> 00:20:40,347 I know. 399 00:20:40,347 --> 00:20:45,381 S I also think we can be mental, but people we don't know, through reading the 400 00:20:45,381 --> 00:20:47,480 ag material or following what they say. 401 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,122 I, yeah, I think undeniably my parents, their choices 402 00:20:52,122 --> 00:20:53,454 had quite a big impact on me. 403 00:20:53,501 --> 00:20:55,923 I didn't necessarily realize it at the time, but they were. 404 00:20:56,373 --> 00:20:59,553 They were exceptionally sacrificially generous. 405 00:21:00,231 --> 00:21:05,495 They w they very fortunate by anybody's standards, but, didn't 406 00:21:05,495 --> 00:21:10,582 take that for granted and did a lot more than the average person 407 00:21:10,582 --> 00:21:12,322 would be anywhere willing to do. 408 00:21:13,042 --> 00:21:17,116 And I, that certainly left its mark in terms of, the importance of being willing 409 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:19,066 to take those risks for other people. 410 00:21:19,096 --> 00:21:21,977 And obviously my choices have emerged from some of those things. 411 00:21:22,072 --> 00:21:22,642 It's yeah. 412 00:21:22,642 --> 00:21:28,020 It's, there's no kind of necessarily, individuals that have shaped me in 413 00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:31,443 a big way, but I'm lucky to have a lot of people around me who, in lots 414 00:21:31,443 --> 00:21:35,834 of ways have helped guide me over the years and obviously my family 415 00:21:35,994 --> 00:21:39,324 . I always try and see the people that when we're working with a company 416 00:21:39,564 --> 00:21:44,317 trying to see in the employees that work there, that they're not just the kind 417 00:21:44,317 --> 00:21:49,075 of, they're not a number, so I guess I would, in terms of how I do things and 418 00:21:49,075 --> 00:21:51,255 feeling inspired, be married a long time. 419 00:21:51,325 --> 00:21:54,925 Madly in love with her and have four wonderful children. 420 00:21:55,045 --> 00:21:58,426 And I project that, into the work, that's somebody else's son 421 00:21:58,426 --> 00:22:02,146 or daughter or somebody's wife or husband, and they have friends and 422 00:22:02,146 --> 00:22:04,216 family and how would they feel? 423 00:22:04,216 --> 00:22:08,956 And so that keeps me focused on tries to keep me focused on what I think matters. 424 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:10,036 Yeah. 425 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:14,271 And as you spoke about the children, so how do you see the workplace will 426 00:22:14,281 --> 00:22:15,841 be different for the next generation? 427 00:22:16,111 --> 00:22:17,101 Or how would you like it to be. 428 00:22:17,598 --> 00:22:17,958 Yeah. 429 00:22:18,028 --> 00:22:19,492 I think that we're just starting to shape it. 430 00:22:19,492 --> 00:22:22,153 I think I actually happened to be a governor of a school. 431 00:22:22,163 --> 00:22:24,003 So this is really topical question for me. 432 00:22:24,031 --> 00:22:30,611 How do we design education to support children becoming adults for jobs that are 433 00:22:30,751 --> 00:22:36,751 not only very different from the average professional of my age, but potentially 434 00:22:36,781 --> 00:22:40,241 not just companies that aren't there, but whole sectors that might show up. 435 00:22:40,891 --> 00:22:45,143 In the next kind of 10 to 15 years, I think the trend where on will continue. 436 00:22:45,207 --> 00:22:48,639 I think we're at the kind of bottom of a sort of exponential curve. 437 00:22:48,639 --> 00:22:50,978 I think it's quite difficult to predict where it will end up. 438 00:22:50,989 --> 00:22:54,169 I think some things will always be the same new people are 439 00:22:54,169 --> 00:22:57,559 people, and there are some things which have been constant for us. 440 00:22:57,623 --> 00:23:00,364 And I think that's one of the things that corporate sort of underestimate 441 00:23:00,424 --> 00:23:05,223 with, when particularly big companies, when they start talking about questions 442 00:23:05,223 --> 00:23:11,403 of purpose and meaning and work, those are such deep human questions that I 443 00:23:11,403 --> 00:23:14,973 think is a mistake for them to imagine that they can control those in a very 444 00:23:14,973 --> 00:23:16,653 kind of manufactured corporate world. 445 00:23:17,488 --> 00:23:21,371 Just for the company's benefit, actually you potentially open up a 446 00:23:21,371 --> 00:23:24,341 whole series of questions that you weren't prepared for, that people, all 447 00:23:24,341 --> 00:23:25,803 discussions that people want to have. 448 00:23:25,827 --> 00:23:31,552 So yeah I think there'll becoming increasingly the boundaries of companies 449 00:23:31,552 --> 00:23:33,172 will become increasingly porous. 450 00:23:33,382 --> 00:23:37,352 I think, you'll get a lot more partnership, a lot more collaboration. 451 00:23:37,379 --> 00:23:37,559 Yeah. 452 00:23:37,589 --> 00:23:39,483 I You might, we might have situations where. 453 00:23:40,788 --> 00:23:44,559 10 15 years where, a company lasts 10 minutes and there's a million 454 00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:47,086 people doing one thing, and that they solve a problem together. 455 00:23:47,133 --> 00:23:47,625 Who knows? 456 00:23:47,715 --> 00:23:48,015 I don't know. 457 00:23:48,015 --> 00:23:50,415 It's a it's exciting question, which is why I do it because it's 458 00:23:50,472 --> 00:23:54,402 enjoying, it's like watching the story be written as you do the work. 459 00:23:54,852 --> 00:23:55,122 Yeah. 460 00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:58,530 And if there is somebody who wants to do something ambitious and 461 00:23:58,530 --> 00:24:00,705 wants to start a company, Yeah. 462 00:24:00,915 --> 00:24:02,535 What advice would you give them? 463 00:24:02,535 --> 00:24:06,915 Because if they go out and seek advice or if they start operating, I think 464 00:24:06,915 --> 00:24:12,544 they will still bump up against those old paradigms, . So how would you 465 00:24:12,544 --> 00:24:14,954 recommend them to, to start something? 466 00:24:14,975 --> 00:24:20,360 I'm part of a movement called B-Corp which is a kind of movement and a 467 00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:26,420 certification for companies that see themselves as trying to have an 468 00:24:26,420 --> 00:24:30,635 increasingly positive impact on the world, socially environmentally for the word. 469 00:24:31,595 --> 00:24:32,195 Et cetera. 470 00:24:32,945 --> 00:24:35,938 And so there's four and a half thousand of us now globally. 471 00:24:37,048 --> 00:24:41,998 And we have a kind of free online public resource, which is a framework 472 00:24:42,028 --> 00:24:43,708 that effectively helps companies. 473 00:24:43,708 --> 00:24:44,638 It's not an exam. 474 00:24:44,638 --> 00:24:51,778 It's our long list of ideas for a company to build some scaffolding around which 475 00:24:51,808 --> 00:24:53,788 they can pursue some of these ideas. 476 00:24:53,848 --> 00:24:57,489 So a really good place, really good practical resources to go. 477 00:24:57,626 --> 00:24:58,886 B Corp, you Google it. 478 00:24:58,886 --> 00:25:04,856 You'll find it anywhere and look, and just look through the resources, the questions, 479 00:25:04,856 --> 00:25:07,556 the ideas, they all start to give you. 480 00:25:08,076 --> 00:25:10,686 Something to work with rather than a blank piece of paper 481 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:13,009 and a third party assessment. 482 00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:15,752 We liken it to a bit like your skeleton. 483 00:25:16,262 --> 00:25:18,272 So it's something that holds together. 484 00:25:18,272 --> 00:25:19,072 Lots of disconnected. 485 00:25:20,492 --> 00:25:23,432 But just like a person needs to flesh in the soul to be a sort 486 00:25:23,432 --> 00:25:24,902 of whole thriving human beings. 487 00:25:24,902 --> 00:25:28,322 The same thing with something like Vico, the framework has helped will help you 488 00:25:28,322 --> 00:25:29,762 have a strong and healthy skeleton. 489 00:25:30,182 --> 00:25:33,002 There's always going to be things outside of a third party assessment 490 00:25:33,012 --> 00:25:36,262 that need considering but that's, that's, a good place to be. 491 00:25:36,317 --> 00:25:37,847 And has a lot of credibility. 492 00:25:37,847 --> 00:25:40,326 It's seen as a sort of gold standard at the moment for the 493 00:25:40,326 --> 00:25:41,436 business as a force for good. 494 00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:43,758 It's not perfect, but it's it's very. 495 00:25:45,233 --> 00:25:46,163 Yeah, thank you. 496 00:25:46,223 --> 00:25:48,756 Thank you, John, for your time in answering these questions. 497 00:25:49,116 --> 00:25:53,046 And I'm sure there's a lot of value and a lot of wisdom in the ideas that you 498 00:25:53,046 --> 00:25:55,566 have and that you take to companies. 499 00:25:55,986 --> 00:26:00,376 So for anybody, anybody who is listening in, just before we wrap up, is somebody 500 00:26:00,376 --> 00:26:04,386 who wants to know more about the kind of work you do and the kind of 501 00:26:04,386 --> 00:26:09,366 philosophies and ideas that you have, where can they find out more about that? 502 00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:11,556 And how can they reach out to you if there's. 503 00:26:12,861 --> 00:26:16,551 Yeah, but I always welcome people to reach out on LinkedIn 504 00:26:16,551 --> 00:26:18,077 is a good way of reaching me. 505 00:26:18,077 --> 00:26:21,570 I guess you've seen my name on the podcast, John feather, big goal. 506 00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:24,670 Now find me someone invite I have gladly accepted. 507 00:26:24,739 --> 00:26:31,039 My company's is shore mounts.com and B Corp as a organization is worth 508 00:26:31,219 --> 00:26:34,685 looking to, and you can con can connect with me through any of the. 509 00:26:34,699 --> 00:26:36,439 But LinkedIn is probably the best place to start. 510 00:26:37,699 --> 00:26:38,149 Thank you. 511 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,979 Thank you, John, for sharing your ideas. 512 00:26:40,009 --> 00:26:41,899 It was wonderful talking to you today. 513 00:26:42,529 --> 00:26:43,219 Absolutely pleasure. 514 00:26:44,326 --> 00:26:47,716 That's it for this episode of choosing leadership with summit. 515 00:26:48,856 --> 00:26:52,546 I choose leadership every time I record this podcast and I 516 00:26:52,546 --> 00:26:53,986 invite you to do the same. 517 00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:58,816 I invite you to design a life of joy, meaning pride and satisfaction. 518 00:26:59,296 --> 00:27:02,236 Not just for yourself, but also for those around you. 519 00:27:03,076 --> 00:27:07,216 This is what I do most naturally to lovingly and gently provoke you. 520 00:27:07,666 --> 00:27:12,136 To help you see your own light to help you see what you are already capable of. 521 00:27:12,616 --> 00:27:16,516 I say what might be uncomfortable for me to say, or for you to hear. 522 00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:22,236 To show you that all of our dreams which have been on hold are within our grasp. 523 00:27:23,866 --> 00:27:27,106 If you like the sound of it, do not forget to leave a rating. 524 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:31,876 I invite you to subscribe to my newsletter@deployyourself.com 525 00:27:32,206 --> 00:27:33,166 slash newsletter. 526 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:37,636 You can also reach out on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook to share 527 00:27:37,696 --> 00:27:39,316 any other comment or feedback. 528 00:27:40,186 --> 00:27:43,636 I want to thank everyone who contributed to making the show. 529 00:27:43,696 --> 00:27:44,386 At reality. 530 00:27:44,896 --> 00:27:46,456 And thank you for listening. 531 00:27:46,936 --> 00:27:51,466 Always remember that you are enough, you are loved and you matter, this is summit. 532 00:27:51,856 --> 00:27:54,406 Until next time, keep choosing leadership.