TWI_008_Corina_Newsome
Mon, Mar 31, 2025 1:55PM • 45:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
bird conservation, National Wildlife Federation, environmental justice, urban biodiversity, Memphis against pollution, community engagement, conservation policy, STEM fields, black professionals, wildlife biology, public lands, environmental racism, ecosystems, conservation advocacy, urban conservation.
SPEAKERS
Speaker 1, Bill Hodge, Voiceover, Anders Reynolds


Voiceover  00:00
The following is a production of wild idea media,


Bill Hodge  00:07
and welcome back to the wild idea podcast, where we are exploring the intersection of wild nature in our own human nature. Anders, it is spring here in Montana. Well, it's probably what some would call fall spring, but it is spring here in Northwest Montana. How are things in in the capital today?


Anders Reynolds  00:27
Oh, hi, Bill. Things are warm. It is going to be unseasonably warm over the weekend, and the gnats are playing their their opening series against the Phillies. So I think everybody's really, really happy about the weather.


Bill Hodge  00:41
Well, we're excited to bring to you guys today a great conversation we're having with Karina Newsome. She is an amazing biologist, works for the National Wildlife Federation. We'll tell you a little bit more about her, but we're going to be talking, of course, about birds, because that's a real big, deep passion for her. But also, what is wild we're going to sort of get into misconceptions of people when they think about a place being wild or a concept being wild, like it's, it's, it's not necessarily what we all see as one version of that. And I'm really looking forward to that piece of the conversation. And just what do you what are you doing to get outside with your unseasonably warm weather?


Anders Reynolds  01:17
Well, most people may be outside, but I, I recently took a train ride of my own down to Charlottesville to participate in the southern Environmental Law Center's read environmental writing awards ceremony. I mean, you know, Corino knows there's a long tradition of a sense of place in southern literature. You see it in Faulkner, Faulkner, you see it in Alice Walker, you see it in Walker Percy. But as the South grows and changes, writers are increasingly exploring not only what those natural riches mean, but the politics of land and what those riches have wrought as resources for other places to covet or to discard or to use. So this year's read awards went to Jonathan mingle for his book gaslight the Atlantic Coast pipeline and the fight for America's energy future. That book tells the story of the communities fighting against Dominion energy's proposed Atlantic Coast pipeline in Virginia. The journalism award went to three journalists, Jared Koski, Maya Rosenfeld and Steve osunsami for their ABC News investigation, our inheritance is washing away. It was a two part story that revealed how a highway widening project in Alabama disproportionately harmed a predominantly black community of Shiloh, causing severe flooding and damage to generational family properties. But I also want to mention, in addition to the read award, I was very excited the SCLC bestowed its very first congressional Champion Award to Virginia Senator Tim Kaine, who was there in person to talk about his walk down the at over the past couple years, and who has been committed to protecting public lands in the George Washington Jefferson National Forest and to defending some of those same communities highlighted in gaslight, who were negatively impacted by pipeline. So it was a real pleasure to have both the award winners and the senator there, and it was a good


Bill Hodge  03:17
night. Well, that's awesome. You and I both had a chance, over the years to get to interact with Senator Kaine before, when he says he's hiked down the Appalachian Trail, unlike some other politicians, he actually probably meant it right.


Anders Reynolds  03:30
Yes, he wasn't actually in Argentina, or whatever that that Congressman was. Yeah, he's great. I've got a great picture of him spreading out this gigantic map on the hood of my car before we we took a hike in the proposed Shenandoah Mountain National Scenic Area, and I have really enjoyed getting know him and getting know his staff over the years. They are the real deal. Well,


Bill Hodge  03:50
I'm actually making a journey to the south myself here in a few weeks, and going to spend a couple months back in my home of the southern Appalachians. And all this talk about Senator Kaine in the south is getting me very excited about that idea, but I think we should probably get onto the folks this incredible voice we have joining us today. Karina Newsom is a conservation scientist at the National Wildlife Federation and a wildlife biologist dedicated to the integration of environmental justice and equity into conservation science policy and practice, with a specific passion for avian conservation, karinas research has focused on answering landscape ecology questions that help climate threat and species survive in a changing world. Karina is fascination with birds extends beyond her own research and into communities where she lives and works, serving as a vehicle through which she connects herself and others to the living world around them. In addition to her work in conservation, she's also committed to uplifting black professionals in the STEM fields and to inspire the next generation of leaders. Something near and dear to my heart, Karina, welcome to the wild idea podcast. Thank you


04:52
so much for having me. I'm excited,


Anders Reynolds  04:55
Karina, I am so happy you are here. Bill failed to mention. That you're also a member of the America, the beautiful for all, Coalition on which we both serve together, on the wildlife working group. And one of the thrills of my life was being at our in person retreat and seeing Karina bird in person. It is like, it's like watching Meryl Streep do a monolog in your living room, it was just it made it. I mean, I love birds. I don't know anything about birds. I love them. But like watching Karina, like the joy, and then the way you explained it all, I was like, Oh, my God, this is so special. It was great tenders.


Speaker 1  05:34
I need to put that into my email tagline, or maybe a tattoo I have. That is the greatest description I think anyone has ever told me of what they feel when they bird when we bird together. So thank you. Yeah, Puerto Rico is a lot of fun, and it's really such an honor to be here and Anders, it's been a pleasure to work with you, and Bill, it's a pleasure to meet you, and I'm really excited for our conversation. Same,


Bill Hodge  05:54
excited to meet you, and any friend of Anders is a friend of mine, and and it sounds like you guys have gotten to do some really great work together. Yes, yes, indeed. Where did it begin with birds? I kind of begin at the beginning. Where does, where did the bird love begin? Do you know that moment? I


Speaker 1  06:12
do, and it's surprisingly late, given how much I love birds. But I when I went to college to get a degree in zoo and wildlife biology, ornithology, was a required class, and it was the only class that I was actively dreading from the time I started my degree program, I knew nothing about birds. I didn't have a clue as to how many species lived in North America. I was coming from, like, the zoo world, so I know a lot about, like, international, you know, species from around the world, and, you know, things like that. And the seniors at the time were like, Oh yeah, you have to memorize like 300 birds by sight and like 200 by sound. And I just knew I was one of those students who, like their GPA meant a lot to them. And I knew that was when I tanked my GPA. I just knew it and on the first day of the class. So I had spent three years stressed about this class. On the first day of the class, my professor, who was extremely passionate, he was going through some of the common birds in Northeastern US, and he brought a blue jay on the screen. And I'm like, that's a blue jay, because I had heard of Blue Jays, right? But I had never seen one clearly, because when I saw that, when I was my jaw hit the floor, and everyone looked at me like you've never seen a blue jay. And sure enough, when I walked outside after that class, Blue Jays were everywhere. And in that moment, I realized that if I someone who was literally getting a degree in animal stuff, right, I love wildlife, if I didn't notice these very loud, big birds, how much more was I missing? And how much is are other people missing who maybe don't have an affinity for wildlife like I do, and so at that point, it became every new bird was like a treasure hunt. I became obsessed. And when I say obsessed, I mean that, and to this day, I'm very close with my ornithology professor from college, and it's been a lifelong since then, friendship, and I'm so grateful for birds because they changed my life.


Bill Hodge  08:00
I love hearing that story. Just I'll just jump in here. I know Andrew has got a great question for you, but the fact that it was a blue jay, because people who are going to listen to several of these episodes, I won't quit talking about the corvids out my window. I have a group of Stellars and a group of Blue Jays who have trained me, of course, to feed them peanuts every day. They are the loudest, most demanding species on the planet. If I'm not up and out there by 630 in the morning with their peanuts, they let me have it. This happens about two weeks in the spring, two weeks in the fall. But I I just, I love that connection to the J world.


Speaker 1  08:32
I would do anything to be in your position right now. Bill, anything. Karina,


Anders Reynolds  08:36
I'm curious if you could say a little bit more about how birds shaped your conception or perspective of what could be considered wild I already mentioned, I don't consider myself a birder, although, God, I love birds, but I've always wondered if birds challenge the idea of, like big static habitat protection being the only way To Go.


Speaker 1  08:58
Yes, I think birds are the perfect connection point for people to understand how even perceptions of wild or might might be wildly inaccurate or not reflective of real life, and that spaces that are maybe deemed as being the higher priority conservation areas, like some of these really large tracts of land that aren't developed that we typically think of when we hear the word wild, how they connect to say our urban spaces and our urban parks, because so many birds in the US are migratory, and they migrate across, certainly across county lines, state lines, country lines, hemispheres and the same birds that might spend a portion of their, you know, life history in a city, maybe it's just stopping over during migration. Maybe they breed in some of these really large tracts of land that are well protected, but they still require stopover areas in some of our urban places. So you'll get, like, black burning and water. Warblers in cities you'll get, you know, black go to Blue warblers in places that you're like, wow, wait. I maybe never assumed a warbler could be found here. Or some other just really incredible species. They to me as connectors, tell us that that wilds, wild places, so to speak, are all around us. Wherever there is life, there is something to be discovered, even if you're talking about like, when I tell you a tree on a corner. I was walking in Atlanta and American robins, which are residents here in Georgia. I was literally standing at a very busy intersection. There was a decorative, you know, an ornamental tree, not even a native tree, planted on a corner. And there was a Robin at my eye level feeding her chicks in that tree like she had built an S, right? And to me, I'm like, there is so much involved in just this tiny location that allows this to be possible. And many people would not describe street trees as being wild, you know, wild or creating wild ecosystems, but they allow life to exist and allow life to thrive. And for me, that that is part of how I define wild and why birds, I think, break some of the barriers around preconceptions about what wild means or what nature means. So


Bill Hodge  11:11
I was introduced to the, you know, the woods in my backyard as a young kid, right? And then at 10 years old, my parents bought a pop up camper, and I had the privilege of going to camp on a national forest. And then I started, this is just admitting my own biases, but I think this happens to a lot of folks. I started thinking, well, the wild was out there now, because right now I've been on a big national forest and a in the woods where there was nobody else. And I began to think, well, the wood, the wild is out there. And but it began as my backyard, right? It began, what was out my window, just like me talking about the the J's out my window. I wonder how we help ground people back to that, because I think that's where we create this divide, where those who work in, like, let's say Public Lands Conservation, which Anders and I, well, we all three do, right? At some level, like, how we break out of that, getting galvanized into thinking, well, that's the protection, as opposed to these places. And I'm curious if you could go any deeper, or think any give us any more thoughts on like, how we help people to not forget that the wild is everywhere. It's in the crack in the sidewalk. It's not in the million and a half acre Bob Marshall complex out here. You know, could you talk a little more about that? I


Speaker 1  12:22
think helping people understand that wildness is everywhere is rooted in helping them understand the life where they are first. And obviously you can't catch everyone at the beginning, but I one of the reasons why I love engaging with kids around outdoor exploration is because you are kind of catching them at the beginning, and you can encourage them and guide them through the exploration of their own homes and the places that they call home, and then when they get to these larger landscapes, I mean, it makes it all the more incredible, because they can see the connection between where they are and this place that may be vastly different from where they live. And for me, that was my story, and it wasn't until more recently in my life, after I got my degrees and I was doing research out in the field, that I experienced those kinds of landscapes where I'm like, wow. Like, look at this expansive salt marsh, look at this huge national park, places that were so different from where I grew up, but because I had begun to nurture my exploration of where I was, it didn't make me feel like the wild was only in those places. It was only in those large landscapes that didn't have a lot of development. It just helped me spine myself in the picture. And I have seen some really great educational programming come online from educators I know who are building curricula to help students, help young people look for and identify and appreciate and steward this life that lives on the same plots of land or in the same cities or counties that they're living in. It's


Anders Reynolds  13:50
funny, like so many, the places in nature we choose to protect or that we choose, maybe more accurately, we choose to amplify, often reflect back to us our lack of thinking about biased systems. I'm thinking here about issues of access and representation. But I wonder like is, can the way we think about conservation reflect back to us a better, more just, more diverse strategy for protecting places. Have you done any thinking about that?


Speaker 1  14:23
Definitely. And I think, well, one i So, I'm a huge advocate for urban biodiversity conservation, in particular, equity centered urban biodiversity conservation. And the reason being is that so globally, this is true, but in the US, it's especially true that, you know, most people live in cities, and even more, a larger percentage of the population will live in cities as time goes on. I think in the US, it's 80% right now. So when you're thinking about conservation, conservation is really ultimately about people. It's about the decisions people are making that impact our landscapes and impact our ecosystems. It's about the decisions people are making that in. Influence those landscapes, and it's about the way those landscapes, in turn influence people. And when it comes to that latter, influence how the ecosystems and the ecologies that people live in are influencing them. Black folks, communities of color, low income folks, are bearing the brunt of the cost of a lot of our industry and a lot of our impacts on ecology, and those same impacts are felt by wildlife and by biodiversity and the way that cities operate, because a lot of cities are, for example, located on like rivers or waterways or really important geologic features for for a region, the impacts of cities extend well beyond the boundaries of that city, right? It's going downstream. It's going, I mean, way downstream. It's going, you know, across boundaries when it comes to the air, right? So when we approaching conservation in a way that really puts more priority on urban landscapes, on communities that are bearing the heaviest brunt, it's necessary, because if you're ignoring that, then these impacts that are happening that again, may start in a city but extend far beyond that city, you're not going to even accomplish the goals that you have around conservation, even if you don't even understand environmental justice, even if you don't care about equity, you're literally not going to be successful if you do Not plan and work in a way that prioritizes heavily impacted communities, because those those same impacts extend beyond those communities. And I think that even for this offensive conservation, as far as like policy right, like Anders work so much in policy, I work a little in policy, or even in advocacy right, like mobilizing people. And the the other way the conservation is really about people. Is that we need people's support. We need the general public to understand why this matters and to advocate for policies, for resources that that that advance conservation. If you're ignoring cities, you're ignoring 80% of the population of the United States. That is not sustainable. And so I think the conservation stands to gain so much when we shift our priority away from the unpeopled, quote, unquote landscapes, away from the landscapes that are undeveloped and pristine, to where people are and where people are most affected, because those same impacts again, stretch well beyond Those communities, and those communities deserve to live healthy lives. And I'll put that I said that last, but let me make sure that is the top priority in that entire comment. It's


Anders Reynolds  17:28
such a point worth emphasizing. Bill started this podcast, and he starts every podcast by saying, you know, we're exploring the intersection of human nature and wild nature. And just to give folks a peek behind the curtain, Bill and I talk a lot about like, does that phrase imply that human nature and wild nature are distinct, when, in fact, we think that, like humans are tied up in wild nature. And I think what you're saying really reinforces, if we're going to consider those things not distinct, but as harmonious, then you can't ignore the fact that that with most people living in urban areas, most nature must therefore exist there, right? If people are a part of nature, then a lot of nature is existing in urban places, and it would be sort of foolish not to recognize that extremely let's talk about box town. So listeners will know that my day job is is at the southern viral Law Center. SCLC has some really talented attorneys and advocates. I'm not one of them, but we have some very talented folks. One of our most significant victories of late was stopping the vialia pipeline from running through box town, a historically black area of Memphis, Tennessee. SCLC represented the group's Memphis community against the pipeline or MCAP, protect our aquifer and the Tennessee chapter of the Sierra Club in that fight, and we made some really good friends, first and foremost Justin Pearson, who is now, in my opinion, a national figure in his role as a Tennessee state legislator. But my understanding Karina is that you're involved in a new fight against the new threat in box town. So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about that.


Speaker 1  19:03
Yes, absolutely. So Memphis against the formerly Memphis against the pipeline, and they're now called Memphis against pollution, given the fight continuing beyond that victory, and it's thank you on behalf of you know, all folks who are watching and part of that community, for for, for participating in that victory. Elon Musk's uh efforts to get into the realm of artificial intelligence has made its way to that community and to power his uh new AI venture. Grok he rushed the construction of a data center in boxtown using already existing infrastructure, and to get it powered up, is using unpermitted turbines that are releasing methane gas along with other pollutants in the community, again without permits. And so this community, without any input from the community, this construction was, was, was done, and is now actively polluting their community. So they're really mobilizing. So. Around getting their county to deny the permits for these already running turbines and to ensure that the community is not harmed in the existence of that data center. And what's really unfortunate is that there are already over 15 polluting industries in that community surrounding, literally that community alone, and that pipeline was going to be the next, and now this data center is lined up to be the next. And so the fight is literally never over, and and the the horrifically increased cancer rates in that community, the the respiratory distress, the asthma, all kinds of diseases that are multiplied in that community because of the fluting industries are indicative of the environmental injustice. The really, the dynamic at play there when it comes to biodiversity is is really also very telling around how some of this, some of these, these, these injustices work. So one of the polluting industries, their industry, you know, it's one of their critical infrastructure, their wastewater treatment plant is actually also a really terrible source of pollution in that area. At the same time that wastewater treatment plant has wetlands within it, like they use wetlands as part of, I think, the water cleaning system, and it has drawn hundreds of bird species there. I think I look at the eBird map, there are, I think 315 species of birds that have been spotted at that water treatment plant alone, right? Wetlands are net. Is a natural ecosystem that will be found along the Mississippi River, right? But it is also this major polluting pollution source, and so at the same time there is degradation of the environment, you're seeing life make a way and burst through, both in the community there that's organized around stopping this pollution, and in the wildlife that is somehow still stopping over living breeding in this area. And it just gives you, gives me, I'll speak for me, a picture of like, wow. What would this look like if they were not subjected to literally 18 polluting industries. What would it look like if they were not subjected to environmental racism? What would it look like for the birds and other life if this human community was not subjected to environmental racism? And it gives me hope for the future the way that they've organized and they really have embraced such like a the community has a an all of life approach to their advocacy environmental justice. We think about the principles of environmental justice, and I'll wrap up here. The 17 principles of environmental justice include and central to it are the stewardship, the stewardship of living things, like the stewardship of our ecosystems, whatever that looks like where we are. I really just have to thank immensely the Pearson family, and especially Justin Pearson, who's now a state representative, and Keyshawn Pearson who leads Memphis community against pollution, and really has just done an excellent job of keeping his foot on the gas and keeping so many diverse voices from not only across Memphis, but across the US involved inviting people into the fold and being willing to lead, not only his community and his efforts, but to lead other people in what equitable, successful, effective organizing looks like. To


Bill Hodge  23:10
stay in the bird terminology, was good for the goose, was good for the gander, right? Like, if it's good for wildlife, it's going to be good for humans. If it's good for humans, it's going to be good for wildlife. And I think about how and how do we make that happen? Obviously, you guys mentioned a voice from within the community and Senator Pearson, but like, how do we build, you know, how do we build more voices? You know, I've been down this road myself. We when working in the southern Appalachians, working with a group out of Yonkers, New York, called groundwork Hudson Valley, working with urban youth. And they got the chance to come down and work on public lands in the south, specifically wilderness areas. And they they all got to where they call me papa bear. And those who know my physical stature understand why I'm always called Papa Bear. But and Anders just shaking his head, just dying to jump in.


Anders Reynolds  24:02
Please, please stop requesting that. I call you that. It's just not gonna stick. But


Bill Hodge  24:08
I remember sitting by campfire in the woods North Carolina with these kids who were Dominican and from Ghana. And, you know, first second generation immigrants at the most like second generation immigrants, and they would go, well, Papa Bear, this is yours. I'm like, no, no, no, no, this is ours. This is all ours, right? And there's, there was some flaws in that effort. I mean, there were mistakes made. Like, there was a bit of a white savior thing going on, you know, this white guy bringing these brown kids to the woods. But like, we also made connections. So I think, in trying to figure out how we give rise to all of the voices, it's going to take, take to protect the wild, whether it's in the wetland in Memphis or in the the woods of northern Minnesota, you know, staying in the in that, that corridor of the Mississippi River, we're going to have to try things. Sometimes they're going. Fail, but we're gonna keep trying things, right? And I know you're super rooted in, like, lifting up, you know, voices and how they can, how they can engage in these conversations, so that we learn from mistakes and get better as we move forward. And how does that sort of feed your soul On a day to day basis? I'm curious.


Speaker 1  25:19
Yeah, I think that one of the things that I've learned is that we have to follow the communities who are the ones living, the living the injustice, wherever that is, whatever that looks like, whether talking about cities or rural towns or, you know, what, you know, whatever ethnic background, racial group we there is somebody almost always who's been shouting from the rooftops, please pay attention to us, right? I always advocate for people to get behind those folks instead of So, for example, with Memphis, for me, what feeds my soul is that I've been able to learn from like they were generous enough to really bring people from all over into the fold. I've been able to learn from the folks in Memphis I was on their organizing calls, you know, their meetings with the judges, when the by helium pipeline was was going, you know, advocacy was going on. And the reason why I think it worked is because people got behind the community. There weren't these external forces trying to come in and lead the advocacy or take it over. There were already leaders, and they just put the resources behind them, and the platforms and the, you know, the money and the legal expertise, all this behind them, and that's what I continue to learn. And I think that is that is a mechanism that we have to continue to follow. And so the reason why I feel so much hope, and I feel fed to your point, Bill around engaging with with communities like those in box town, is that, man, this is how we have to do it. We have to get behind them. And the cool thing is that communities know best the intricacies of what needs to happen. Right from the outside, we may just see this one big problem, but for example, Memphis community against pollution understands that this is an advocacy, you know, an advocate, an advocacy need, but this is also an education need. We have to be educating the elementary age school children about what's happening and empowering them and giving them the understanding of our civic processes and getting them, you know, confident in civic engagement. We have to let them know about how our ecosystems work, like they're taking literally, a holistic approach to realizing the future that they want, which is often missed, you know, by a lot of maybe larger or outside organizations who try to come in and solve problems for other people. And so when we take this integrated, holistic approach, we put the resources behind community leaders. That's how we realize these wins at local levels that then stitch up to landscape and national scales. Because I you know conservation wins ultimately happen in some place. They're going to happen in a particular place, a set of places. And so we need to stitch up this kind of very community focused, local infusement of resources up to these larger scales. In addition, of course, to our national advocacy and national work. God,


Anders Reynolds  27:53
that's so inspiring. There's this there's this side of conservation that's landscape focused and sort of built around that Rooseveltian idea, to leave it as it is, but the community organizing side of it, like, as you talk, I'm thinking it's the same thing with that leave it as the community knows best how to advocate for itself, like trust them, to do it as it is, and support them where you can. It's I, I hope I knew that intrinsically, I don't know if I did, you worded it better than than anybody I've heard mentioned that before, so I was just really inspired by what you said. So thanks. One


Bill Hodge  28:27
of the biggest lessons I ever got, I went to hear Dr Carolyn Finney speak. And the phrase that has been stuck in my head forever is, you know, our big national conservation groups, even local conservation groups tend to think about, oh, well, we need to invite communities of color to our table. And our comment was, how about going to their table? Which is what I think Karina you just articulated beautifully. And like all of the issues aren't necessarily going to be the issues that your organization works on, but they're all intertwined for that community and the leadership come from that community, because it affects them, right, like, and I think you just, you just really kind of kind of nailed it there. I've just that's always stuck in my head from, from Dr Finney, is this idea of quit inviting people to our table. We need to show up at their table,


Speaker 1  29:12
listen. And if I can just Andrew something really quickly. So I was at a conference, the North American Wildlife Resources conference, I believe, is what it's called, management resources. Management resources the North American and they're one of I heard from, I won't mention the state, but I was speaking with a Wildlife Diversity Program Manager from a state in the US who's really leading on urban conservation. And he found out, and I heard this actually, from not just him, but from some other folks too, that they were literally afraid to do exactly that. Bill show up at other people's tables. He was like, I just need you to commit to going to a community event. That's all I'm asking, right? Just show up somewhere. And people were terrified. There was some someone working kind of at the national level with state wildlife agencies around. And why, but, you know, getting biologists into non white communities to do their work so that wildlife agencies are really engaging the full diversity of their communities. And he said the feeling around that ranged from being really uncomfortable, kind of at best, to terrified at worst, like there's this unwillingness or fear around going to other people's tables, and the Wildlife Diversity manager who I spoke with said, imagine how the community feels when you think that you can just put a flyer up and say, come to our table, you know what I mean, and you are unwilling to go to theirs. It's so important, but that's really where the rubber meets the road. I'm


Anders Reynolds  30:36
really sorry to hear that this conversation's touching on a few others we've had. It's reminding me of a conversation we had about the process of protecting Bears Ears and how important it was to get indigenous voices at the at the forefront of the effort, which is where they deserve to be. I want to ask you about something I've been feeling lately, which is sort of in a lot of the programs dealing with diversity and like the conservation space, I often hear a reason for doing it as that well, we're building something more resilient, and I have repeated that talking point, and that talking point may be fine, but there's something lately that has kind of rubbed me the wrong way about building something more resilient, it sounds sort of self serving a little bit to me. And I wonder if a better way to look at is it, you're just building something more sophisticated with like, more authentic ways, more and broader ways of viewing the work, right? It's not that it makes my understanding of what the movement is more resilient, it's that I bring in more lenses for looking at the movement altogether, like a more sophisticated way. Have you encountered anything like that? I'm like, I'm actually way off script. Now. I'm totally riffing, but I'm curious if you've thought of anything like that.


Speaker 1  31:59
Yes, and I actually was just, I was on a panel yesterday where this came up, and I think people are used to justifying diversity in a self serving way, like white white folks are used to justifying diversity in a self serving way, either because that's literally how they view it or because they're having to answer to people who view it that way, like their bosses and decision makers who literally only care about either their bottom line or the persistence of their organization or company, right? So and So, it is true that like you will become irrelevant if you don't diverse, if you do not reflect the diversity of the people you quote, unquote, serve. That is what was going to happen. But also for matters of like justice, like people, like I said before, deserve self determination. They deserve access to the resources to live a healthy and high quality life. They deserve to be able to have access to the opportunities that those of us who are in this career field have had that got us here. Like that's just, that's a moral point that and that I do not, of course, falter on. And one of the points that I used to make a lot kind of in the 2020, era, but I feel like is relevant now is that I like to think about this in terms of biomimicry. And a friend of mine who is actually an architect, and he has degrees in biomed, Billy Allman, he thinks a lot about biomimicry, not just in terms of technology, but in terms of social constructs and how we organize and work together, and like, homogeneity is dangerous, literally, in every every context of existence, like whether you're talking about genetics and why you don't want to have children with a relative, all the way up to ecosystems, like, homogeneity is a recipe for disaster, and we're seeing that. We're literally seeing disaster. So we're missing out on so much genius. We're missing out on so much innovation when we do not have diverse decision making and diverse decision making, decision makers, excuse me, the diverse communities, right, and so especially in a place like the United States that has representation of so much diversity. So I can talk honestly forever about that, but Andrews, yes, I agree with you there.


Bill Hodge  34:01
Yeah, I could, mean this, we could do multiple series on this topic, because it's so incredibly important. And again, it goes back to what's good for the human species is also good for other species and vice versa. I mean, I live in Montana, where we have two distinct populations of grizzly bears that would benefit from those communities being connected, and it's like a metaphor for, like, where we are in this day and age. In politics, we got to quit talking past each other. I'm curious as we think about doing that, continuing to do that work of lifting up voices and getting people to think about their work differently, and thinking about the work in the context of what the community needs, what the community wants. How do we respond in an era where we're being asked to scrub three initials from, you know, from the work because, because a certain body politic believes somehow that it's, you know, too woke, or whatever. Like, I know the simple answer said, we just keep doing the work, but like, we're doing the work in a different environment. And I wonder, Is it as simple as we just keep doing the work, and if they want to go over and fight about words, let them. But obviously we're seeing real world I'm seeing real world examples of organizations feeling compelled to take the words diversity, equity and inclusion, out of even mission statements and like, how do we? How do we? How do we just keep charging forward? Maybe even, do we have to charge forward an even more rapid clip because of of this? There's a part of me that thinks we must be doing good because we're facing resistance. Like, oh, we must be making an impact, right? But am I thinking about that wrong.


Speaker 1  35:41
So I believe, and I will always harp on this point, regardless of whether we're talking about like a big national behemoth of an organization, or if we're talking about a small, you know, local organization, our ability to not just survive this time in our in our politics, but to thrive and make progress is rooted in our relationships, personally, so, so not just institutional relationships, not just what, what communities or community organizations does my organization work with? But like, Who do I as Karina, know? Who? Who do I as Karina, you know, bring myself in close proximity to to learn from them, to understand what their vulnerabilities are that may not be mine, right, as to help inform my work that then stitches up to my work for my nine to five and my organization, it stitches up to my personal advocacy, right? It informs the decisions I make at work, and it informs the decision I make in my personal life. And so one, I do think it does take bravery, Bill, so I think that organizations have to be willing, particularly large organizations with who have gotten a lot of the resources by parading pictures of black people and brown people around and say, Look, we are, you know, when it was favorable equity and justice focus and got a lot of money because of that, like, I think it's their responsibility to keep the work front and center and to risk the attention from from people that might target them. Because the reality is that the communities, communities they say they work with, or they benefit or serve, like simply being black and working on climate is going to make you a target, like you are environmental justice. If you are a black person working in conservation, you know what I mean, or if you're a black person working for the health of your community, that that is what they don't like. And so it's their responsibility to stand up for them and to continue to be as much of a guard as possible against those, those waves of attacks. But I yeah, I encourage people, wherever you are, find the people who are organized against injustice, become friends with them, make yourself accountable to them, and figure out how what you're doing can advance their work and just be informed by by what you learn.


Bill Hodge  37:46
Yeah, don't. Don't just fight for something because you think it's what's important for you. If you have those real connections, those real relationships, those genuine bonds across across differences, then then you're fighting for them. You're not just fighting for yourself anymore, and you will be a better person for doing it. If, if you're the white suburban person who has been, you know, giving to conservation X forever, and you really like the fact that they've been doing this, well, no, you need to make those real connections, and you'll be, you'll be stronger and better for it. I know I have been, again, I've been guilty of leaning into this and making mistakes, you know, again, I mentioned, you know, sort of getting caught up in white savior syndrome, all that sort of thing, but, but if you lean in and create those real connections, I can promise you, from a personal experience, your life will be richer and the world will be better, for sure, continuing that that thought about how we work, I know you're super passionate about, I'm going to use the word inspiring. Maybe you'll use a different word of the next generation of young people, and particularly young people from communities of color and underrepresented communities, getting into the end of the STEM fields. And maybe, for those who don't know, you could define what those what those initials mean. But like, how did that become a passion? In the same way that birds became a passion for you? Because obviously it has informed your life. So I'm curious how you think about that, and how you go about doing that work when it's when it's maybe sort of just a passion as opposed to a vocation. Yeah,


Speaker 1  39:16
I it really started when I was about to go to college and I was, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I wanted to be a veterinarian, but that's just because that's the only career working with animals that I'd ever heard of, all the way up until I was gonna graduate high school. And then, in the nick of time, I'm from Philadelphia, a black woman from the Philadelphia Zoo reached out, and she was actually the lead carnivore keeper. And I, honestly, I didn't even believe it at first. I was like, I didn't realize how much my brain was informed, like have been structured around assuming that white people were conservationists and the wildlife people like I we got connected to a mutual friend, and they were like, Yeah, my sister works at the zoo. I assume that she worked in concessions, or that she worked in administration or something, but no way that she was a biologist or so, yeah, she was a. Carnivore keeper it like literally in a week, it changed the entire trajectory of my life. She brought me in. She got me an internship at the zoo that I honestly could deserve. Thank you. Miss Michelle. Michelle Jamieson is her name, and it that one piece of representation, that one person, carried me through a two degree programs. Undergraduate, I was the only non white person in my whole degree graduate school, I was one of two black people in my graduate program for wildlife biology. I was the only black when I was a zookeeper, the only black keeper in the whole zoo, like every zoo I worked at, like it that's, that's how it was. I'll say, oh, I should say that two of the zoos I worked at. And so that was just my experience. And then I remember when I was in grad school, kind of towards when the pandemic was starting, I got I saw black birders, like I saw other birders who were black. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, like, and even thinking back on this is embarrassing, almost for me. And it's like I seriously had not met a black birder until I was 25 you know what I mean, like, but that's what it was. And I was shocked, right? So I began to find this community of other, just bird enthusiasts, nature enthusiasts, and then in 2020, that's when I started meeting I'm talking about scientists, technology experts, engineers, mathematicians, black folks who are working in these really amazing STEM fields. I remember, I to this day, if I see a black woman who's an engineer, and she's talking about what she's doing, I'm crying into my phone to this my phone. To this day, I found like a black battery engineer, which I never even heard of. That battery engineer, I don't know what that means. I was crying. It's like, it's so powerful for me to see that even as a full grown adult who's already in a career, I can only imagine what it would have done for me as a child to see those people and to expand the horizons of what I thought I could do. And so for my from my experience alone, I am extremely passionate about making sure that people of all races and ethnicities, but especially black folks and young black folks see black people doing these technical careers, because it really informs what you think you can do. It absolutely does, even if you don't realize it. I didn't even know it was informing what I thought I could do until I met my first black Zookeeper.


Bill Hodge  42:08
I had this journey with these young kids that worked with us on this trail crew that had a chance. They were all young people of color from Yonkers, again, the district ranger on the grandfather Ranger District on the Pisgah happened to be a black district ranger named John Crockett, still with the Forest Service to this day. And I said, I want them to meet John. I want them to see John in his uniform and see that he is responsible for 120,000 acres of public lands. It's his responsibility to manage it. Had an interesting anecdote that John showed up where we were camping to meet these young kids, not in his forest service uniform, but in his motorcycle leathers. And the guys all became obsessed with his sport bike and John. But ultimately, I will say two of those young kids, one now works for the park service, and one works for bio light as as a marketing professional for the outdoor community. And it's just amazing what somebody like you can do when they're willing to say, you know, like, stand up, that this is an opportunity. Even though you maybe don't see enough people that look like you, you can be a part of that change, which you clearly have been. I'm curious if you could tell us what's the best way for people to connect with you, where they can find you, how they can follow you.


Speaker 1  43:18
Yeah. So I if you want to follow me on Instagram, my name is My username is hood, naturalist, and it's H, O, O, d2, underscores, naturalist. I just thought on Twitter two day or not, Twitter, tick tock two days ago. I know you don't have to follow me there, but if you're on tick tock and you want to Oh, boy, I


Anders Reynolds  43:37
am. I'm getting I'm not on tick tock, but now I am I


Speaker 1  43:41
have two videos. I've literally two videos. Don't even worry about it, but my my username is Karina news, one Tiktok. I knew you can take or leave that, but Instagram is where I spend most of my social media time.


Anders Reynolds  43:52
Karina, this has been fantastic. You are so thoughtful, and I appreciate the ways you challenged me. I noticed that you were very generous about mentioning people who have helped you along the way, professors and zookeepers, and I just want to make absolutely clear for folks that I have benefited from a lot of your work. So I appreciate you very much, and I thank you for spending some time with us today. I'm glad I finally got to introduce you to


Speaker 1  44:17
Bill. Yes, it's such a pleasure, and it's really this was a wonderful start or middle to my day. So thank you, and it now I have ideas for Tiktok, Tiktok videos to make. Oh no,


Bill Hodge  44:28
no, no, but boy, what a pleasure it has been for me to get to meet you, Karina. And for those of you listening again are we've been visiting with Karina Newsome, who is conservation scientist at the National Wildlife Federation, an amazing birder and an amazing inspiration for future STEM professionals across the globe and Karina, thank you for joining us, and we look forward to having these conversations again down the road. So thank you. Thank


44:53
you so much. Thank you likewise


Voiceover  44:59
the wildlife. Media is a production of wild idea media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Brent Russell at podlad Digital, support by Holly wilkuszewski At day pack digital. Our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from railroad Earth and was composed by John ski hand. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find the wild idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at the wild idea.com you.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai