[00:00:00] Dan: 

[00:00:05] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond. 

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee, 

[00:00:15] Dan: And we are going to the US.

[00:00:19] Pia: Whoa. Bags are nearly packed. Passport's ready? ESTA done.

[00:00:25] Dan: Yes, ESTA is in the bag. And, uh, but nothing else is. I'll be packing at the last minute, as usual. But yes, we're heading to the, uh, to San Francisco, New York, and then we're heading over to London while you are on your trip. But it's, this is an amazing moment because we used to travel a lot together and do a lot of plotting and in fact, Squadify was born on the road, through our conversations. Many, many, yes. I think the 101 in, uh, in San Francisco. And um, and I think that we were saying that last time we were there, we think was 2019 pre Covid, and we visited the Statue of Liberty, didn't we? Which was an extraordinary experience.

[00:01:01] Pia: We did actually. That was quite a moving experience. We sort of, we've all always tried to do something in the cities we are in to sort of absorb the culture and understand a bit more about the people and the situation. But yeah, the Statue of Liberty was, was amazing. It was, it was gifted by, was it by the French

[00:01:20] Dan: I think it was. Yes, Yeah. I think it was. And it was in recognition, wasn't it, of the, the sort of welcome that the US had given to so many immigrants, I believe, if my memory serves me. And the, you know, remember the, the Emma Lazareth poem that's there, that which includes this really moving line. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. I mean, that was the spirit of the United States at its best.

[00:01:45] Pia: And it was quite, there was quite a conflict in us because at the time, Trump was president and that was not happening. And there was the beginning of a lot of division and segmentation and there was quite a heaviness sort of brewing at that time. And then of course, that was all pre covid, so six months later the. The world was in lockdown after we'd gone. So a lot of, a lot of events have happened and these have changed all of us in some ways, more than we may even recognize.

[00:02:16] So we'd be great to go back and I think just sort of absorb that, but also that really then tees in beautifully, Glenn Akramoff who we're speaking to today, who works and helps people in difficult work environments where some of these things then spill into the, into the work environment.

[00:02:37] Dan: indeed. And the American Psychological Association, um, says that 19% of workers say their workplaces are very or somewhat toxic. So that's basically one in five. So it's a bit grim, but, um, our guest is on a mission to, uh, improve that in the public sector in the us. So let's go and hear this rather wonderful conversation now. 

[00:02:58] Pia: A really warm welcome to Glenn Akramoff, uh, and we're just delighted to have you from Seattle this morning. We are truly global.

[00:03:09] Glenn: Yes. Thank you for having me.

[00:03:11] Pia: It's a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. We're really looking forward to talking to you and yes, we, we've managed to make all the time zones work across the globe and really, really looking forward to, to uncovering and understanding a bit more about your story and your why and um, and the work that you're doing.

[00:03:27] So before that, we have the obligatory question card. So I'm gonna hand you back over to Dan to, I can't tell from here whether you are sweating or not, but I don't think so. You look quite a cool cucumber.

[00:03:39] Glenn: no, I'm good. I'm ready for Dan.

[00:03:40] Dan: oh, here. Yeah, you're ready. Okay, so here's a, it's an orange card, so it's mid medium trickiness. I get really directive when. 

[00:03:49] Glenn: actually, um, I'm about all about empowerment, but the only time I will get really directive is when we're in an emergency situation. So I've, I've been in emergency situations my whole career doing public works. So I've been in hurricanes, spinning earthquakes, spinning all that, and I will get directive at that time. And everyone expects me to.

[00:04:11] Dan: So give us a, just talk us through a little example of that. Could you, that sounds too, too interesting to leave on the table.

[00:04:17] Glenn: So, so interestingly enough, uh, in one of my clients last year, we actually had a, a quite serious accident. One of our pieces of equipment, a backhoe, uh, ran over one of our employees and we did not know if he was gonna make it or not. And so, at that time. Everyone was tense, no one knew really what to do. I did, I'd been through it before, so I just got real directive, you know, I pointed, do this, do that, everyone ran, did what they were supposed to do, um, including the leaders that worked directly with me and including the one who technically I reported to, and everyone kind of did what they needed to do. And, uh, um, and I took the lead.

[00:05:02] And it worked great. It was actually, I told the story in a speaking engagement recently where. I had told them what to do, everyone did their part, everyone fulfilled their role perfectly. Uh, the three other leaders that were part of it, two of them went out on site, did a great job, handled the stuff on site, and they split up what they were doing there. And then two of us, me and one other stayed at the shop and handled everything, handled people coming in. Um, I made a rule, I made a directive that no one left without looking me in the eye. And that's 75 people. And everyone did that. And at the end of the day, I would say it was probably one of the most rewarding and best team performances I've ever been a part of. 

[00:05:47] Dan: uh, that is fascinating. And I think what we are gonna have to do is ask you to give us a little bit of your bio so that we can understand how you got into this position in the first place. So tell us a bit about you, Glen.

[00:06:02] Glenn: sure. I, I started as a, uh, a, a field worker, a maintenance worker when I was, uh, 18 years old in my hometown. And, um, I progressed through my entire career doing that. Uh, moved out to Seattle. I was in New York, moved out to Seattle, uh, got a job here, worked my way through the ranks, and then, I had a mentor who said, you know what, you're, you have leadership ability. And I kind of knew that, but I didn't really want to admit it when you're young, right? You don't wanna take on that responsibility. So I did, I took on the responsibility, became a, a supervisor, a manager, a director. And then I actually ran a city as a city manager for a while.

[00:06:45] Um, after that ended, I, I really found that I had developed a really good skill of developing teams and solving, uh, uh, fixing toxic workplaces. Uh, so I wanted to do more of that. Um, and so I created a, uh, I joined a firm that did some of that work and then I created my own firm, in order to do that.

[00:07:06] Most of my background is in public works, which is maintenance and operations, but also capital building, capital projects. Um, so done a lot of that stuff, uh, working in government for 25 years. And then most of my contracts have been, uh, government contracts as well. 

[00:07:24] Dan: you, you were a city manager. Tell us a bit about that role. Could you, that's the one that popped out for me.

[00:07:29] Glenn: it, it's basically the CEO of a city. And in, in the states we have two different versions of way cities are set up, either a mayor, we call it a strong mayor. They run the city and they're elected and they run the city, and then they have a, an administrator who, who works with directly with them and manages the staff. The city manager actually fulfills kind of both roles in that, uh, type of government. Here, the, the city, the mayor is just a part of the, the council who runs things, who runs the meetings. The, the main vision setter and the main one who operates the city and handles all the operations is the city manager.

[00:08:10] So it's, it's. As you would expect a CEO job. It's high pressure, it's high visibility. Um, but it's also incredibly rewarding when you, when you get to help a community develop itself,

[00:08:22] Pia: And Glenn, tell us how you got more involved in toxic workplaces and, and supporting them. So, so what were the things that happened that, that sort of catalyzed you into, into the, that's quite a niche area. Generally, you have to have a burning sensation. You'd have to, you have to have had a, a situation where you've felt you've been burnt in order to be able to, to, to want to do that.

[00:08:44] Glenn: Yeah. And, you know, as we talked, my calming manner, my dad was a police officer, he was also in emergency management before they called it that. So I, I, I've kind of have that in me. But, um, what really got me going is I had two, uh, when I was working in a, a city, uh, as a maintenance worker, um, the, the, the place was pretty toxic and it, it, could beat you up pretty good. And I had two close friends who I worked with who it, it really ate them alive. and I watched the organization not know what to do with the situation. They just kind of, ignored it until it was bad and then kind of disposed of, disposed of people. 

[00:09:26] One of them left there and I don't know where he is today, but I watched him, uh, watched him lose his job, his family, um, he self-medicated himself quite regularly with alcohol. The other one did the same thing except um, he had a bad relationship going and um, and then one day got himself heavy into alcohol and took his own life. 

[00:09:52] Um, and so for me, um, I see their faces every day. And when I go into an organization and see people who are headed down that path, um, I knew I could do something about it and that's what drives me. And I remember both Jim and Vince very, very vividly.

[00:10:11] Pia: And there's probably, I mean, there's a, Jim and Vince in many organizations aren't there, and that, that, that's the sad thing.. 

[00:10:19] Glenn: Yeah. Almost everyone. 

[00:10:20] Pia: Um, and when you, when you talk about a toxic workplace, what type of things were happening?

[00:10:26] Glenn: Well, I think the, the first thing is, is that it, it, it's very, um, divisive. Um, it's very clique-ish. Uh, the, the culture is very, um, focused on the negative. The lowest common denominator tends to run things. Um, productivity is very, is seen as a negative, not a positive. And for both of these men, one of them was driven, he just wanted to be part of a winning team, and I believe everybody does, but Vince very much was like that very happy go lucky, outgoing guy who just. Wanted to be part of something special. And when he couldn't be and he couldn't be express himself the way he needed to be, um, and then there was no safety net. And that's usually what happens is toxic workplaces, there is no safety net. They see that as a negative. If you're struggling, that's a negative. We gotta move you on one way or the other.

[00:11:23] Uh, with Jim, um, he was driven to be the absolute best. And he could not tolerate mediocrity. And, um, I think part of his challenge is some days he saw mediocrity in himself and there was no one there to help him walk through the fact that we all go through that and we all can't be excellent every day. But he set a high standard in the, and the organization was not interested in enforcing it. And, um, it, it just ate on him every day. And when he saw the people who were the least performers getting, getting the most, uh, attention, and positive attention sometimes it just drove him, I think, literally insane.

[00:12:06] And that's what toxic workplaces do to you. They, um, you know, you have bad managers. In this case, I, I didn't, my direct supervisor was actually quite good. Um, but the organization just fed on it and there was, you know, people were allowed to, to bully each other. Um, and, um, and it was just, it was just not a healthy place to be and you had to be a strong person to, to make it through each day.

[00:12:35] Um, and for me, you know, I don't mind confrontation, and that's allows me to do this work. But I, I, I would say that most, most people, you know, 80% don't like it, don't want to be any part of it. In a toxic workplace is about confrontation to a point where people can dominate over another, and that's not healthy.

[00:12:58] Dan: You've done a lot of work in organizations, Tom, that might, could be described the same way. What's the, what's behind it? What causes it? Before we talk about what you can do about it, what actually, what, what's the genesis of a toxic organization?

[00:13:12] Glenn: I, I think it is a lot of it is the psychology of the workplace becomes not about the mission. Or something important. It, it becomes about, uh, you know, in, in government it's usually, you know, it's all about service, right? That's what they say. But, but in, in a toxic work government place, it becomes about protecting yourself. And that's how it starts to evolve.

[00:13:38] So I talk a lot about unwritten rules. Um, and unwritten rules are actually created to protect the team from some negative thing, but they're very much easily corrupted and they generally are corrupted by the, the bully of the group or bullies of the group to protect themselves. And as soon as that's allowed to happen, now you start having toxicity. You start having people who are the haves and people who are the have nots. And as soon as you have that, you have a toxic workplace.

[00:14:08] And, um, my, my guesstimate right now is around 90% of workplaces have some semblance of toxicity, either they're headed down the road and I, I shared Dan with you that I've just started working in a new one and they are actually a tight-knit unit that I'm working with that is headed on the way to toxicity because things haven't been dealt with. So I'm glad I got here before it went, went bad. 

[00:14:35] Pia: And and and that's what, that's a question I was gonna ask you, Glenn, is, can, can all, can all apples have the potential to turn bad? I suppose it's a roundabout way to say what are the ingredients that can create a team to turn from being positive to becoming toxic, because that sounds a bit like it could happen to anyone.

[00:14:55] Glenn: It can happen to anyone. It also, I will say, can go the other way for everyone. A lot of people say, well, there's people who just don't want to, this, that, and the other. That's not true. Everyone wants to win, and you just have to find what that trigger is for them. But as far as what, what makes them go bad, um, it, it's always a series of events. Um, and it always goes down to the fact that, that they feel like they're, they're losing.

[00:15:27] I express it in a way of a sense of purpose. Every organization has a purpose and that purpose is generally focused at serving human beings in some way. But they can get right off the task pretty easily. And then I believe every human being, we all have our own sense of purpose, a reason we are here. And what happens is when the organization goes off kilter and focuses on the wrong things, then the humans will start to do the same thing. 

[00:15:59] And some will resist. And there will be a core group in every unit that resists and just will not go there, and they will either leave or they will just hunker down until something changes. Um, and then there's a, there's a group that that kind of goes with whatever is happening. And then there's a group that, for whatever reason, and usually the way I look at it is that they, they are suffering in their personal life and they want other people to feel that pain because they have no other way to express it. And, and I think when you, and when we talk about how you fix it, that's part of that piece is understanding that they can really, you can help them by getting involved in however well they let you in, helping them heal. And that's really the work that I'm doing is helping organizations heal by helping individuals heal.

[00:16:54] Dan: So talk us through the practicality of that. Glenn, you've, you've got this new job. How do you approach this work?

[00:16:59] Glenn: Yeah, the first thing I do is I, I have an opening speech that I always do, and I, and one of the keys to that event is that I tell 'em, first of all, who I am, what they can expect. IGI have guiding principles. There's only four of them. I give them to them, but at the end I say I don't expect you to trust me or to respect me. I'll earn both. And so I spend my first six, eight weeks doing just that. 

[00:17:27] I, I have to get their permission to lead. And I think this is a mistake that many leaders make is they think, I've got the position they have to respect me. And, and that's just the way it is. And it's not that way. The team has to respect and trust you, and when they do, then you can lead them anywhere that you need to because they know that you're going, you have their best interests at heart. 

[00:17:51] So I'm spending my first six weeks and I've been here too. I'm now meeting with them individually and getting to connect with them. And I think that's part of it too, is I, I'm looking to, to have a, create a rapport with them. So this morning I did one of my individual meetings and, um. Young guy who just started, he's been here 10 months. Um, this is his first, you know, maintenance job. And, I was recently in a car accident and so was he. And so I knew that and that I used that for us to connect in an experience in life that we both shared in common.

[00:18:28] And so that's how I go about doing it, is finding that connection with each person. And everyone says to me, well, that's a lot of work. Yeah. But, but it's incredible when you, when you know, we were showing pictures of our cars,

[00:18:42] Pia: My wreck is looking worse than your wreck.

[00:18:45] Glenn: That, that's it. But it, but it created a, a, a connection between he and I that now he knows I'm just a human being. He's just a human being. We, we both were an accent. Neither one of us were at fault, so we had a lot in common. I use that to connect with him. And I do that with everybody I can. And then I, that's my team. And then I will do that with everybody, my peers, I will do that with, with anyone in the organization. 'Cause I'm not interested in just influencing my team. I'm interested in influencing the entire organization. 

[00:19:18] Dan: We've mentioned this a few times, but in, you know, we, in the Squadify dataset, when we ask people about what's important and how present those conditions are in their teams, one of them is about strong personal connections. And, um, it's, it's improving. But that's historically been the lowest rated for importance. And so the, the feedback you are getting, which is sort of, oh, that isn't, that'll, that's gonna take a long time, so it's so interesting to say that is job one for you. Um, fascinating. But it's, it's definitely swimming upstream, I think, compared with the approach of most leaders.

[00:19:50] Glenn: I agree and, and now that we have a lot of transition in leadership, and now we have the two newer generations, the millennials and the Gen Zers taking on leadership roles, we need to teach them that. They want this, this is what they want. They want a connected leader. They want someone who they know is gonna care about them and care about what they care about.

[00:20:11] And it doesn't have to be exact, right? That, you know, millennials tend to be very focused on, on changing things and being very voice, voice it very much in protest. They're a protest type of group. The Gen Zers are not, they're doers. They're going to change it. And so the two of them are gonna be a great dynamic, I think, as leaders. Um, not everyone sees it that way even yet, but, um, yeah.

[00:20:40] So, so to me, I, I think that's, you know, you look at what, what C-O-V-I-D and all that taught us, it taught us that, that people are just not willing to take the old. The old guard leadership, the strong handed, um, do as I say, not as I do type of leadership, and they just won't, they're not tolerating it. And, um, I applaud all the people who are not, um, 'cause it, it didn't work when it was popular and it isn't popular anymore.

[00:21:07] Pia: What I think there's a famous saying, I, I dunno whether I'm gonna get this right this early in the morning. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That's always struck me as, such an important concept because I think you're talking about.

[00:21:23] How you build social capital, which is a fancy word for how you bond with people, how you build relationships. And a lot of the teams that I'm working with have friction at the point of a task because they haven't built any of those relationships with the people. So they, they're sort of coming to loggerheads. At the time, it could be an emergency, it could be a normal situation, but they're under pressure, whereas they haven't invested that time. And I think that's what that care that you talked about, being interested in other people is so important. And I think that is a skill that sort of, I'm compounding a lot of different things in here, but looking at that generational shift, we don't make relationships online. We have to do it face to face, and they take investment and they take a willingness to make an effort.

[00:22:12] Glenn: Absolutely. The leader, I believe, has to do it. So I teach leaders when I'm teaching them, you're not gonna like your people every day, but you gotta love them. You gotta love them every day. And it set everyone, look, you know, some people look at me and I go, I know it sounds corny, but it's the way it is. And if you're gonna be a world-class leader, you need to, you need to figure that out.

[00:22:33] And that's what I really enjoy about the work I do. I move around a lot. I get to know a lot of people, and, and I do. They know. I think that's one of the things that has set my consultant business apart is not only me, but you know, I work with my son and he does this work too, and they know we care about them. When we first go in we earn their respect and trust and they know, and for some of them, this is something that's pretty powerful, I think is for some of them. We are the only ones. And so you, you know, as a leader, you gotta understand that's, that it won't be forever. But for some people, work is their life and it's all they have, and their leader is their, their most important person in their life for a while. And you just, you have to accept that that's a real thing.

[00:23:20] Dan: So, so Glenn, you've formed this relationship. You, the foundation is in place. You've built that, the trust and respect that you said that, that they would have for you after the six to eight weeks. What next?

[00:23:32] Glenn: Then, um, we go about identifying what needs to be done, right, what needs to be changed. They give me all that information, or not all of it, but most of it, right? They'll give me what they really want to do. So part of my process is to help them, help them by showing them, first of all, that I'm a person of action. So I, I want to give them something that they ask for right away. And it's almost always easy, right? Someone just doesn't listen and whatever.

[00:23:59] So as an example, this place I'm in right now, a lot of 'em have talked about planning. They don't, they don't have enough planning, and they don't always know what they're doing day to day. Well, the first thing I saw was I want to implement as a weekly schedule. They don't have one. They have a daily kind of random thing. As soon as they see that, that that will give them all of them what they want. And so it's an easy thing. But now they realize, okay, Glenn's here to take action. And he listens to us and he's going to, to do what needs to be done.

[00:24:31] And then I raise the bar. Then I raise the expectations. And I tell them as we move forward, that, Hey, I'm gonna raise the expectations and I might expect more from you than anyone has in your life. And I'm not gonna apologize for it because I won't expect it if I don't believe you can do it. And that starts to build their confidence.

[00:24:52] And then I, I, we work then the next we go into the sense of purpose. Um, why are we here as an organization? And then I start working with them individually. 'cause a lot of them haven't explored their own understanding of what they're here for. Um, and I, and age doesn't matter in that case, right? I, I think about 15% of human beings know why, why they're on the planet, and even less of 'em have written it down. And so I help them with that process and try to get 'em to connect, connect with the organizations, and if they can't, then that tells us they're in the wrong place and I will commit to them to help them to get into the right place.

[00:25:29] Then you get everybody doing what they love to do and they're using their skills and, and you start to win. And then I start talking about being a championship organization and what that means. And I tell them they don't believe me, but I tell them, as you're, we're headed to that point, you are going to, if you perform like a champion, you will be treated like a champion. You may not get a parade, right, but, but you are going to be treated like a champion. And even in government that happens. And when it happens, when that happens, it's, and, and people are moving and they're, they're learning and they're, they're moving forward, the morale starts to build. Things start to happen. I can fade into the background. It becomes not about me, but about them. And then I, you know, then they can take it on. And my whole mission is to make that sustainable for them, not only in their work life, but in their life, their entire life.

[00:26:26] Dan: And you, you mentioned, um, some of the tos toxicity spills from people's private lives that you know at home, and it comes, it comes in because they, they're either, they take it out on people or they have no other way of expressing it. How, how, how do you handle when you see that and observe it? How do you handle that?

[00:26:45] Glenn: Yeah. It's very delicate, but I have found that most people want to talk about it. So you just open the conversation and make them understand that you're there to talk about it. I don't need to know every detail, but some of them have shared every detail and some have not. Many leaders are very intimidated by that process, right? What am I gonna do if there's somebody in my office in tears? Well, it happens every place I've ever been, and to me it's, the ultimate expression of trust. And so I take it as an honor that they're doing it and I, and I just work hard to help them any way I can.

[00:27:25] Interestingly enough, that flows the other way too. You can have a really toxic workplace that flows and makes your home toxic as well. And I've had a lot of people who've gone into rehab. I've had, you know, people, um, go into counseling for marriage. And you know, a lot of that sort of stuff, uh, you know, put their kids in, in counseling and stuff for, uh, various problems, just by having conversations with them and pointing out, Hey, there are resources for that. Here they are. And I'm one of them. And that's something I commit to and I think every leader needs to, is I move around a lot and have, But I tell 'em, once you work for me once you work for me forever. So all you gotta do is call me and I'll be there for you. And for some of them that, like I said, for some of them they may not call me for 10 years and then call me in a, in a difficult situation, and I'm gonna be there for 'em 

[00:28:22] Pia: that's a huge commitment I think on your part, to be there because I think a lot of people say, you know, I'll be there and, and then they don't pick up the phone or the numbers changed. 

[00:28:33] Glenn: Right. 

[00:28:34] Pia: So, um, dan and I have talked a lot around division. There's a, there's a real theme of trying to split us apart. And we're, and we're experiencing it on lots of different ways. You know, race, gender, politics, religion, you know, it's, it's all there. And then I think you talk then about the different generations, of course, which do a lot of communication online. Do you find the workplace is suffering that and people are feeling that division in the workplace? Or do they come together in the workplace and then they've got their division outta the workplace? 

[00:29:14] Glenn: Yeah, I, I would say yes and no. So it depends on what level of the organization you're at. So when you're on the frontline, when the frontline employees are out there, whether they're in the field or they're answering the phones or they're, you know, reception, whatever they're doing, they tend to be less divided by all of these things. Because for them, it's very much important about being part of a, something that's special.

[00:29:40] The higher you get up, the farther you get away from maybe the, the paycheck to paycheck thing. The more you have time and, and maybe, maybe what I would say is more, uh, worry time where you can focus on something else to worry about and you're worried about gender equality or whatever, and I'm, and I don't want to, you know, I don't want to diminish any of those things 'cause that's not, you know, I'm totally opposite. I think we all need to be a part of it, of whatever, right? And I think that whatever we want to be. 

[00:30:13] But I think that also starts to get us, you know, when you get so tribal where you're, if you're not a part of my tribe, then I must hate you, now we're like you just said, we're down to small little, you know, there's, I've got my three people, you got your four. And And I think that's why the work, why I focused on the workplace in, in how to change the world is is because everyone wants to do something that means. As human beings, we're set up to do that, to serve some purpose, and to to, to do something meaningful. And I do think that part of that division is that, that, um, we don't feel like we're doing it as a species. And we're feeding on each other in that frustration. 

[00:31:00] And so I, I think it's very easy. People wanna connect. They, they want to connect with each other, and they don't want to, they don't want to be judged. And most of the time they don't want to judge each other. And as soon as you put some structure in there where they're not, they don't ha feel like they have to do that, um, and the workplace can do that, they don't.

[00:31:25] I, I watched, I watched here, you know, the, the VAX and the non vxx and all that stuff was a huge thing, and it was very, it, it could be very divisive. But I watched a work unit, um, the same one that, that where they had the accident, there was no judgment between those 75 people. You know, about half of them didn't get vaccinated, half of them did. Um, you know, no one judged them. And it was a very diverse work unit in almost every way you can imagine. And there was no judgment. Their judgment was, are you gonna be there for, for us as a team to help us succeed? If you did your job and you did it well, you were, you were well respected and trusted. If you didn't, you weren't. It was as simple as that. And isn't that what we all

[00:32:14] Dan: Yeah,

[00:32:16] Pia: Mm. Well, hallelujah. 

[00:32:20] Glenn: Yeah. 

[00:32:22] Dan: it, it's, it is inspiring stuff, Glenn, and we are close to our time here, but we always, um, we always leave our listener with a practical idea to take away and to be honest, you've shared so many, but I, I think if, if we have a listener who is, let's say a team leader and they've taken on a team where, where they see this or they actually have against their will, there's sort of toxicity in their team, or for example, where, where would you, what's, what's something that you would encourage them to, um, think or be or do?

[00:32:58] Glenn: I think there's a couple things. One, don't, don't give up. Everyone talks about you walk away, right? You just leave. Well, you always have that choice, but you don't have to, and a lot of people don't want to. So don't, don't give up. There is hope. Certainly I'd love for you to call us our company, but the big thing is wherever you are, there are people doing great work to help, help you get through a toxic workplace. 

[00:33:25] So share, talk about it, don't hide it. Um, that's one of the rules that, that we instill right away is, um, open up about it. If you, you know, talk, converse. And, and if you need help, ask. We, we as human beings just are taught, you know, you're weak if you ask for help and you're not. And a toxic workplace is really hard for one person to do, to fix no matter what your role is. So, you know, talk about it, share your concerns, try to do it as productive as you can and as positive as you can, but get it out.

[00:34:05] And then don't take that home with you. That's the other part. Do not take it home with you because now your wife, your children, your spouse, you know, your friends, your family, everybody can be impacted by that toxic workplace. Um, and that, you know, that is not a good thing.

[00:34:24] And you know, ultimately if it's your, your wellness is at risk. You have to leave. You have to leave. But, um, leave knowing that you've done everything that you can do. And as a leader, if you have a toxic workplace and you know it, it is your responsibility to take action and to teach yourself or to learn or to get help, to, to fix it. And it's out there, it's everywhere.

[00:34:51] Dan: Glenn,n, it's been a really inspiring conversation. Pia and I, after the US next week, we won't get a chance to see you unfortunately, but, uh, you've really whet our appetite for that, for that trip. But, uh, your work is, um, clearly purpose-driven, and we've really had a wonderful and inspiring conversation.

[00:35:09] Thank you.

[00:35:10] Glenn: Likewise. I enjoyed it very much.

[00:35:11] 

[00:35:11] Pia: Glen talked there about the phrase permission to lead. You know, not, not a, a title or position, but that something that you earned. And he talked about the care that he showed was instrumental to building that trust. And that might take, I think he's, you know, that might take weeks and weeks to build that. That's not something that he assumed. So it reminded me of the, the, the basic sort of, which we talked about in, in previous podcasts about this psychological safety. So building that, not assuming it, investing time with people, um, and finding ways to connect. I mean, he really knows that. We're hardwired to connect. You've just gotta find a way to be able to make that, make that connection, and build that trust.

[00:36:07] Dan: Yeah. And it really made me reflect, even though we've seen this so many times, um, through the Squadify data, that that is a phase that leaders just generally don't take, you know, I remember when I took on a big job, actually when I moved to Australia, I read the book, um, First 90 Days. It was very popular at the time. Michael Watkins, I think. Um, there wasn't anything in there about building your relationships. Actually. It was very analytical, very MBA, and I think we still haven't quite grown outta that, whereas that sort of going in with that mindset that I've got to earn my leadership, yeah, yeah, permission to lead, and then build those connections. I thought that's, that's just such a great tip for a new leader. And if leaders haven't done it yet, it's time to time to go back and do it. I think if you've got a team and that's not there.

[00:36:56] Pia: Whereas sometimes we feel that we have to assert our authority, because that's, that's a way of getting respect. It's very much more a sort of Victorian age principle really. We don't, and, and just being aware of that and realizing, okay, we've got different generational shift. We've got people that have actually got complexity of their backgrounds. And as we talked about the top of the show, lots of changes have had, we look back over four years, a lot of changes have happened. And so it's just recognizing that.

[00:37:24] And then I think I liked how then once he'd got that, that level of trust then let's look at the planning. You know, if you've got a daily schedule, let's look at the weekly schedule and then let's raise the bar. Let's, so, so it's, I like how it's not a soft option. And I think, again, we sort of tend to see this as very black and white. Oh, this isn't, you know, go in there. Be all Carey Sherry. No, I mean, it's, it, he, he said everyone wants to be part of a winning team. You don't wanna be part of a mediocre team. You wanna be part of a winning team. But it's the ways of doing it that are

[00:37:58] Dan: Yeah. Absolutely. And even when one, when, when we, and the, the, one of the causes of toxicity was that people feel they're losing. So it's, he held that really, holds that really, uh, firmly, I think in his hands at that sort of, the, the, yes, the, the relationships are key, but ultimately we're here to do something together and be champions.

[00:38:18] So it's, um, it was, yeah, very as you say, it's very easy to abandon one of those to become task focused or overly sort of, yeah, as you say, nice and peopley focused. But actually those two go together. Um, and uh, Glenn just set that out for us.

[00:38:33] Pia: The other bit that I think that, that reminded me, and, and we know this, we know this, but it's just really useful to remind, is that toxicity spills from people's private lives and spills back out from the workplace into people's work lives. So it's circular and yet many people come to work to escape sometimes the things that they have.

[00:38:57] You know, and I thought, you know, very poignant stories about Jim and Vince. There are a Jim and Vince. In all our organizations who are either under pressure at home or, or actually bearing the weight of the toxicity in the workplace and taking that into their home life. So that whole circular, you are responsible for humans understanding where they've come from and understanding what you deliver back to their lives. 

[00:39:24] Dan: Yes. Because you can have, I mean it's, I dunno how we've got into this point where work has become a, a, f, you know, some often a force for bad, for, for bad actually evil. Whereas actually work, as you say, can. Build leaders, build confident people to put back into families and communities, and that relationship is rarely talked about, but it's, it's, it should be brought into the light. And, uh, there's a chance for organizations today to really have an impact on the, on the broader world, actually.Glenn was reaLly clear about this. He said he's chose the workplace as his way to change the world. And I thought that that was really telling. And there's, there's nothing, there's something really inspiring there for any leader, I think that we can do that through our teams.

[00:40:08] But that is it. For this episode is a wonderful episode, really inspiring as we head off, uh, to the us. Um, if you've enjoyed the show, uh, please do recommend it to your friends. Uh, you can find show notes at squadify.Net under Resources. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We, not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:40:35] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.