WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.581 --> 00:00:12.871 Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. 00:00:13.701 --> 00:00:19.701 This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. 00:00:20.121 --> 00:00:24.471 Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:24.971 --> 00:00:27.731 I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. 00:00:27.821 --> 00:00:35.711 And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. 00:00:36.331 --> 00:00:38.881 A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. 00:00:39.216 --> 00:00:40.586 Only stuff that works. 00:00:41.791 --> 00:00:43.651 My guest today is Beth Hawks. 00:00:44.091 --> 00:00:52.891 Beth taught middle school and high school science for 25 years, serving as the science department chair for Grace Christian School in Raleigh, North Carolina. 00:00:53.441 --> 00:00:59.541 Beth taught eighth grade physical science, physics, chemistry, algebra 1B, health, photography, and yearbook. 00:00:59.621 --> 00:01:01.171 Not all in the same year, of course. 00:01:01.751 --> 00:01:10.091 And after becoming aware of the science of learning, she frequently provided professional development to colleagues in her role as a resident brain enthusiast. 00:01:10.781 --> 00:01:15.061 She now moved into consulting full-time under the name of Learning Hawk. 00:01:15.591 --> 00:01:26.481 Her first book, Show Your Work: Teaching Smarter with Science of Learning, describes her real teacher experiences of implementing the science of learning techniques in their classrooms. 00:01:27.001 --> 00:01:32.671 We'll be talking to Beth about her book and her journey into the science of learning. 00:01:32.731 --> 00:01:34.101 I think you're gonna like this one 00:01:35.518 --> 00:01:36.178 Hi, Beth. 00:01:36.198 --> 00:01:39.388 Welcome to Better Teaching: Only Stuff that Works. 00:01:39.698 --> 00:01:40.358 Beth Hawks: Hi, Gene. 00:01:40.358 --> 00:01:41.378 Thanks for having me. 00:01:41.538 --> 00:02:04.959 Gene Tavernetti: Well, it's my pleasure and like I told you before we started recording I was a little bit hesitant about reading another book on science of learning, and I was very excited to, to see how you put yours together, where it wasn't another rehashing of a rehashing of what we think about the science of learning, but it's actually you went into the classroom to talk about classroom experiences. 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.599 And not only your own but with other teachers as well. 00:02:08.139 --> 00:02:09.519 Beth Hawks: Yeah that's what I wanted it to be. 00:02:09.569 --> 00:02:11.629 I, 'cause I, I read tons of these. 00:02:11.679 --> 00:02:15.189 Like, every time I come home from a conference, I've got four or five more books. 00:02:15.189 --> 00:02:23.879 I love them, but I, that's what I found was lacking in them, that, like, they were either written by researchers, which I was a science teacher, so I love that. 00:02:24.019 --> 00:02:25.489 You get … lots of how. 00:02:26.239 --> 00:02:28.339 But lots of jargon. 00:02:28.339 --> 00:02:31.269 If you're not trained in how to parse science language, it can be a nightmare. 00:02:31.689 --> 00:02:41.619 Or it was, like, translators of research, like John Almarode or Andrew Watson or Barbara Oakley, and those were great, but I never … I'd get done with a book, and I'd be like, "Well, that was a lot neater than my classroom is," you know? 00:02:42.139 --> 00:02:51.089 And so, I wanted, yeah, I wanted something that reflected that reality of, yeah, you're gonna try this, and the first time you're probably gonna mess it up, and you're gonna need to tweak it. 00:02:51.089 --> 00:02:53.999 And, you know, what are the challenges for all of that? 00:02:53.999 --> 00:02:54.249 And 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:55.919 … Gene Tavernetti: So, so that was the gap. 00:02:55.969 --> 00:03:00.419 You know, that was it seems to me that's the gap you're trying to fill, so that- Yeah 00:03:00.859 --> 00:03:05.609 so you talk about two types of folks in this field. 00:03:05.609 --> 00:03:15.649 Is, you know, the actual researchers who write for the researchers, and And then people who interpret it, which is a big … Y- you know, everybody wants to do that now, don't they? 00:03:15.649 --> 00:03:18.039 It's like, how can we get this implemented? 00:03:18.229 --> 00:03:19.479 So how did you- And 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:19.789 Beth Hawks: thank the Lord for them. 00:03:19.819 --> 00:03:19.839 Yeah. 00:03:19.839 --> 00:03:22.069 I would've been lost- … if I, if there hadn't been those. 00:03:23.119 --> 00:03:25.423 But you're still f- So I'm not anti either of those. 00:03:25.423 --> 00:03:25.559 I just want- You're 00:03:25.729 --> 00:03:26.739 Gene Tavernetti: still filling a gap. 00:03:26.749 --> 00:03:27.939 You're still trying to fill the gap. 00:03:27.939 --> 00:03:30.109 So what do you think that gap looks like? 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:30.789 What, you know 00:03:31.129 --> 00:03:35.339 … Beth Hawks: I think it is saying, like, these are the challenges, right? 00:03:35.359 --> 00:03:40.589 That you're gonna try to implement this, and it might work great first period and not so well third period, right? 00:03:40.589 --> 00:03:42.369 And what do you have to tweak in order to make that? 00:03:42.369 --> 00:03:45.739 The best analogy I've ever heard on it, do you know who David Daniel is? 00:03:45.989 --> 00:03:46.299 Gene Tavernetti: No. 00:03:46.709 --> 00:03:49.669 Beth Hawks: He's he was a psychology professor at James Madison University. 00:03:49.669 --> 00:03:50.999 I think he works with NIH now. 00:03:50.999 --> 00:04:01.009 But he did a keynote at a conference I was at, and he said, "Research is like growing plants in a greenhouse," because they have so much control over the variables- Yeah … and, you know, all of that. 00:04:01.509 --> 00:04:11.337 And he said, "Teaching in your classroom is like growing plants in your yard." You know, we've had two months of drought and then two weeks of nonstop rain, right? 00:04:11.347 --> 00:04:12.357 That's not happening in a greenhouse. 00:04:12.377 --> 00:04:14.747 But it doesn't mean those lessons from research are wrong. 00:04:15.067 --> 00:04:16.907 It just means you have to adapt them to your yard. 00:04:16.907 --> 00:04:20.207 And so I kinda wanted to write something that looked like it was in the yard instead of in the greenhouse. 00:04:20.657 --> 00:04:23.197 Gene Tavernetti: Well, and I think there's two things as you're doing that. 00:04:23.207 --> 00:04:31.737 Not only that you wanted to provide that for teachers, but how do you get teachers to try stuff, you know? 00:04:31.787 --> 00:04:31.797 I- 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.649 Beth Hawks: Yeah, I think making it approachable is the way to do it, right? 00:04:36.659 --> 00:04:40.929 To say, "You're gonna do this imperfectly, and that's okay." You know? 00:04:41.059 --> 00:04:41.199 Right. 00:04:41.459 --> 00:04:46.399 It's gonna, it's gonna be messy in the beginning, and just embrace that 'cause that's what's 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:48.899 You know, we tell our kids to try new things. 00:04:48.899 --> 00:04:50.159 We gotta tell ourselves that too sometimes. 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:52.939 Gene Tavernetti: Well, we have to tell ourselves that. 00:04:52.999 --> 00:04:58.569 And you said you were c- you didn't use the word, but I'm gonna use it, you're kind of a research nerd or geek, you know? 00:04:58.619 --> 00:05:03.559 And so you're w- you're willing to d- you're willing to do those, willing to try these things. 00:05:03.609 --> 00:05:03.669 Yeah. 00:05:04.069 --> 00:05:14.209 What was it for you, what was the impetus for you to s- to say, "Wow, this science of learning stuff, I'm standing up I'm sitting up, I'm gonna try some of these things"? 00:05:14.219 --> 00:05:16.139 Beth Hawks: So I was a per- … This is very funny. 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:20.639 In my personnel file at my old job it says I don't seek out professional development. 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.489 Which at the time … Because one, I didn't wanna leave my classroom. 00:05:26.419 --> 00:05:31.399 I was like, "I don't wanna stop teaching to be a better teacher." And then two, they weren't always great. 00:05:31.419 --> 00:05:39.479 And so I got, I just got a brochure in my mailbox at school one day, and was on my way to the recycling bin with it like you do, when I 00:05:39.789 --> 00:05:41.139 It was from Learning in the Brain. 00:05:41.429 --> 00:05:49.279 And I noticed somebody, some speaker on it, and I was like, "Oh, I'll take a look at this." And I had door duty, so I was standing there doing my door duty, greeting kids and looking at this brochure. 00:05:50.069 --> 00:05:51.869 And I was, like, sold. 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:53.889 Like, this is clearly for smart people. 00:05:54.509 --> 00:05:57.199 And so I convinced the school that they should send me. 00:05:57.269 --> 00:06:11.479 And they said, "Okay, when you get back you have to do a presentation." I was like, "Deal." And I mean, I got there and I was like, "This is awesome." Because I knew there had been brain research for a long time, but that didn't necessarily translate into practice. 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:17.649 And so having people say, like, "Well, here's what you, here's what you can do," was great. 00:06:17.659 --> 00:06:20.449 Now, it doesn't translate quite that neatly, right? 00:06:20.449 --> 00:06:24.869 Like, you don't just come back and go, "Well, now they'll do that thing." But it did give me a way to think about it. 00:06:25.159 --> 00:06:30.829 And I liked it so much that I asked my parents if they would send me the next year, 'cause I didn't expect the school to come forward again. 00:06:30.859 --> 00:06:31.069 So I was like, 00:06:31.069 --> 00:06:32.099 " Gene Tavernetti: For 00:06:32.099 --> 00:06:34.719 Beth Hawks: my birthday present, could you send me to Learning in the Brain again?" That's great. 00:06:34.979 --> 00:06:36.359 So yeah, it was a great- So 00:06:36.359 --> 00:06:38.769 Gene Tavernetti: What was your big takeaway from that conference? 00:06:38.769 --> 00:06:44.409 Was there s- something that really hit you, that said, "Wow, I'm gonna listen to the rest of this"? 00:06:44.869 --> 00:06:52.169 Beth Hawks: So well, I'm hoping this doesn't sound too dismissive, but the first time somebody said, "There's no evidence for learning styles," I wanted to jump up and say, "Hallelujah." 00:06:52.689 --> 00:06:54.829 Because you know, we'd all been trained in that. 00:06:54.829 --> 00:06:57.169 From even when I was in middle school we'd been taking those. 00:06:57.619 --> 00:06:59.919 And you can't make three lesson plans. 00:07:00.139 --> 00:07:03.309 Like, and then you feel guilty that you're not making three lesson plans, you know? 00:07:03.729 --> 00:07:05.519 And so they were like no. 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:10.419 What you wanna do is, like, make one really high-quality lesson with good visuals paired with…" 00:07:10.419 --> 00:07:13.139 So and I was like, "I can do that," you know? 00:07:13.179 --> 00:07:15.029 Like, something I could do. 00:07:15.459 --> 00:07:23.283 And and that didn't require, like, turning my entire practice upside down, 'cause I'd been teaching- 17 or 18 years at that point. 00:07:23.573 --> 00:07:30.923 And so it wasn't like I was gonna reinvent everything, and so I was like, "Oh, these are things I can actually, you know, take from what I'm already doing and modify it." 00:07:31.233 --> 00:07:37.263 And I was… You know, I'd been doing bell work from my first year, 'cause I grew up in the Harry Wong first days of school days. 00:07:37.763 --> 00:07:44.303 And and so I was like, "What if I just make those retrieval practice questions?" That, you know, like how can I- Right … fit into what I'm already doing? 00:07:44.313 --> 00:07:44.803 So. 00:07:44.823 --> 00:07:50.773 Gene Tavernetti: So, so you go to the conference and you find out that you know, praise the Lord, no learning styles. 00:07:51.013 --> 00:07:51.033 Yeah. 00:07:51.973 --> 00:08:00.063 And then you come back, so you have to… Well, you probably didn't stop doing that, because I'm sure you never were doing three lesson plans because- 00:08:00.073 --> 00:08:01.103 Beth Hawks: No, nobody is. 00:08:01.133 --> 00:08:02.913 But then you feel guilty that you're not. 00:08:03.343 --> 00:08:05.923 So I could stop feeling guilty, and I was like, "This is fantastic." 00:08:06.693 --> 00:08:07.943 Gene Tavernetti: So, so what else? 00:08:07.943 --> 00:08:11.313 Okay, so you had your, you know, your do now retrieval. 00:08:11.363 --> 00:08:13.063 You started including that. 00:08:13.223 --> 00:08:21.863 What else did you… A- and maybe it doesn't have to necessarily be from that conference, but how did you- Right … make a transition, you know, into science of learning- 00:08:22.213 --> 00:08:22.923 Beth Hawks: So- … habits? 00:08:22.923 --> 00:08:25.783 … I think the next step may have been the following summer. 00:08:25.803 --> 00:08:29.923 I read Powerful Teaching the Pooja Agarwal and Patrice Bain book. 00:08:30.413 --> 00:08:35.653 And and I was like, "Okay, I had been doing retrieval," but it was mostly like review at the end of the chapter, right? 00:08:35.653 --> 00:08:36.663 We're getting ready for a test. 00:08:36.833 --> 00:08:37.033 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:08:37.073 --> 00:08:38.023 Beth Hawks: Now let's do that. 00:08:38.093 --> 00:08:39.723 I didn't know it was called retrieval, but. 00:08:40.163 --> 00:08:43.073 And I was like, "Oh, I need to be sprinkling this throughout everything." 00:08:43.773 --> 00:08:52.183 And so my biggest change that you would've seen if you'd come in my classroom afterwards was I put a whiteboard on every desk, and so I was getting an answer from every kid. 00:08:52.713 --> 00:08:54.093 And we were doing retrieval just whenever. 00:08:54.093 --> 00:08:57.343 I'd be like, "Oh, their attention's lagging. Take out your markers." You know? 00:08:57.393 --> 00:08:57.663 Like, let's do this. 00:08:59.193 --> 00:09:04.923 And it, I feel like it made my classroom more interactive because I w- everybody was answering. 00:09:04.923 --> 00:09:07.473 I wasn't just calling on kids with their hands up. 00:09:07.503 --> 00:09:09.043 And so yeah. 00:09:09.043 --> 00:09:12.263 And then I also, I think I took the pressure off myself to do too much. 00:09:12.283 --> 00:09:13.292 I mean, I was a science teacher. 00:09:13.292 --> 00:09:14.362 I had labs and projects. 00:09:14.562 --> 00:09:20.823 But to do, a- again, to not feel guilty about the fact that I wasn't trying to shoehorn discovery in every minute of the 00:09:21.923 --> 00:09:21.943 Gene Tavernetti: day. 00:09:22.013 --> 00:09:23.993 W- okay. 00:09:24.213 --> 00:09:27.072 But as a science teacher, that's one of the things that you say in your book. 00:09:27.073 --> 00:09:29.492 It's not, you know, you have to do those things. 00:09:30.123 --> 00:09:30.253 Yeah. 00:09:30.582 --> 00:09:30.934 You know? 00:09:30.934 --> 00:09:32.053 You, you- And it's important … you yeah. 00:09:32.483 --> 00:09:35.513 Beth Hawks: I do think it's important that they're doing hands-on things. 00:09:36.285 --> 00:09:37.845 But that's different from discovery. 00:09:37.995 --> 00:09:42.975 So I would teach it, and then we would go into the lab and be like, "Now you're gonna observe this." 00:09:43.375 --> 00:09:47.125 But especially with middle schoolers, I had to tell them what to observe. 00:09:47.135 --> 00:09:49.245 They don't know what is important to look at. 00:09:49.645 --> 00:09:54.535 So they're not going to discover it if they don't know what they're supposed to be noticing and what they're supposed to be seeing. 00:09:54.545 --> 00:09:58.215 And just saying, "What did you notice?" Well, I had a kid one time tell me like, "It's smoking." 00:09:58.225 --> 00:10:03.715 And I'm like, "It's not smoking." Those are carbon- like those are carbon dioxide bubbles. 00:10:03.715 --> 00:10:04.295 That's not smoke. 00:10:05.015 --> 00:10:05.075 Gene Tavernetti: Yes. 00:10:05.145 --> 00:10:15.195 But- So, okay, so, so you come back and this, you know, what your administrator told you, of course, they al- it's always come back and share- Yeah … you know, what you learned. 00:10:16.065 --> 00:10:19.495 You had been teaching for, I think you said 17 years at the time. 00:10:19.495 --> 00:10:19.555 Something like that. 00:10:19.555 --> 00:10:23.405 So I'm, so I'm- Yeah … guessing you had some status at at the school. 00:10:23.835 --> 00:10:29.455 But that doesn't make any difference when you come back and you're in front of your staff talking about talking about what you learned. 00:10:29.755 --> 00:10:33.465 Was there any positive or negative reaction? 00:10:33.495 --> 00:10:35.415 I know this is a long time ago, but, 00:10:35.855 --> 00:10:37.785 Beth Hawks: Oh, yeah, it was almost entirely positive. 00:10:37.785 --> 00:10:41.655 So I, for one thing, I'm in a school where we do have really good relationships with each other. 00:10:42.315 --> 00:10:44.825 And and I had been there a long time. 00:10:45.525 --> 00:10:51.715 So I was sort of people's go-to with a lot of questions anyway, and as a science teacher, that makes a difference, too. 00:10:51.765 --> 00:10:55.195 People asked me if it was gonna snow, and I was like, "I really don't know better than- 00:10:55.195 --> 00:10:55.745 a meteorologist. 00:10:55.745 --> 00:10:58.395 Maybe listen to them." But so I had some credibility. 00:10:58.685 --> 00:11:04.105 But also I think it confirmed some of what they were thinking as well, you know? 00:11:04.195 --> 00:11:13.115 Because again, you try stuff and you're trying to make things work that aren't working and you intuitively want to do certain things that PD people are telling you not to. 00:11:13.415 --> 00:11:15.785 But I sort of became in-house PD there. 00:11:15.835 --> 00:11:32.245 Like, I presented, the following year I did a six-part series and we were able to get them CEU credit for it because I was like, I came back from that conference going, "I think I learned enough at this one that we could do like a…" And that's when I learned I actually really like talking to teachers. 00:11:32.245 --> 00:11:34.714 I had always said like, I'm called to teach teenagers. 00:11:34.715 --> 00:11:41.894 I am not called to talk to adults." And turned out I really enjoyed it once I was talking about something that was worth talking about. 00:11:42.154 --> 00:11:54.484 Gene Tavernetti: Well, the, it's interesting that you described that about you know, you went to a couple conferences and you had, I'm sure you had done some reading on your own, but you decided that you were ready to share with folks. 00:11:54.524 --> 00:11:57.004 I, that's a question that I think comes up all the time. 00:11:57.454 --> 00:12:06.514 How much does a teacher need to know about the science of learning, the research behind it? 00:12:06.664 --> 00:12:19.244 Because, like you said, you came back and said, "Oh, I've been doing this. Now I just tweak this." So how much do you think a, a teacher really needs to know before they can start making some meaningful changes in their practice? 00:12:19.874 --> 00:12:22.514 Beth Hawks: It depends on how big a change you wanna make, right? 00:12:22.514 --> 00:12:34.985 Like, I think anybody could come in and say, "Oh yeah, I can add retrieval practice throughout my lesson instead of saving it for the end." I think anybody can probably say, "Oh yeah, I need to do more formative assessment." You know, like that kind of stuff. 00:12:35.284 --> 00:12:42.933 If you're wanting to completely, you know, upend how you teach, then you're probably gonna need to find a model- Like the fast model. 00:12:44.883 --> 00:12:46.003 That works for you. 00:12:46.063 --> 00:12:55.373 But yeah, if it is really, like, just I think I'm doing okay and I just want to improve, then I think, like, yeah, pick a thing to start with and do that. 00:12:55.663 --> 00:13:01.223 Trying to do everything at once does not work because it's too much of a working memory challenge, right? 00:13:01.233 --> 00:13:03.883 Like, you're, especially if you've been doing it for a while. 00:13:04.253 --> 00:13:08.633 And so I think just saying, like, "This year I'm gonna try these two things," right? 00:13:08.643 --> 00:13:09.133 Or- 00:13:09.143 --> 00:13:09.323 Gene Tavernetti: Right 00:13:09.523 --> 00:13:15.813 … " Beth Hawks: This semester I'm gonna implement this one thing and to see if it works, and try it with different classes and see how it goes." 00:13:15.823 --> 00:13:16.273 So. 00:13:16.273 --> 00:13:20.393 Gene Tavernetti: W- well, you have a story about trying retrieval practice in your book. 00:13:20.583 --> 00:13:21.933 I might have been the first chapter. 00:13:21.933 --> 00:13:23.503 I don't re- Yes … I don't remember. 00:13:24.143 --> 00:13:30.079 And, and- It is the first chapter … about Julia, is that- Yes … is the n- is the the Name in the book? 00:13:30.149 --> 00:13:31.809 I'm doing air, I'm doing scare quotes. 00:13:31.809 --> 00:13:32.324 We don't know if that's a real name. 00:13:32.324 --> 00:13:32.379 Yes 00:13:32.429 --> 00:13:32.849 Beth Hawks: I only 00:13:33.149 --> 00:13:34.329 Gene Tavernetti: use for- Tell us about that … to 00:13:34.329 --> 00:13:34.519 Beth Hawks: do that. 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:34.614 Okay. 00:13:34.614 --> 00:13:35.519 But yes, it is real. 00:13:35.529 --> 00:13:35.549 Yeah. 00:13:35.549 --> 00:13:37.759 I thought about making one up for her, and then it just felt weird. 00:13:38.579 --> 00:13:53.499 Yeah, so it was important to me to start with that story because I, when I was sitting down and sort of just laying out the structure of the book, I knew I wanted to start every chapter with a story just 'cause I would enjoy that, so I thought readers might enjoy that too, and it's a little less dry than starting with research. 00:13:53.779 --> 00:13:58.069 But I was like, the first story's really important because it's gonna set the tone for the whole book. 00:13:58.839 --> 00:14:08.349 And so what I wanted the tone to be is even when we're all doing the very best we can, we're gonna make mistakes, and we're gonna make big mistakes. 00:14:08.999 --> 00:14:14.649 But what's important is do we fix them and what do we learn from them and how do we do better in the future? 00:14:14.649 --> 00:14:24.759 And so I wanted that story to be first so that I could set that particular tone, you know, and say, you know, we tell our kids that it's important to learn from their mistakes. 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:26.369 It's important for us to learn from ours too. 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:35.659 And then also, if any reader happens to also be a parent, holy cow, her mom just, it was a master class in how to handle a situation graciously. 00:14:35.709 --> 00:14:35.719 Gene Tavernetti: Okay. 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:40.298 Beth, you may not want to disclose the entire story, but I'm gonna ask you to. 00:14:40.308 --> 00:14:40.338 Okay. 00:14:40.348 --> 00:14:45.888 I'm not gonna ask you to disclose a bunch of them, but but, it, like you said, you thought it was an important one. 00:14:46.168 --> 00:14:46.438 Beth Hawks: Yes. 00:14:46.438 --> 00:14:50.438 Gene Tavernetti: And not only you got kid, you got parents involved, and so you gotta tell us. 00:14:50.438 --> 00:14:50.578 It was. 00:14:50.578 --> 00:14:50.928 It was a good one. 00:14:50.978 --> 00:14:52.138 You gotta share it, Beth. 00:14:52.448 --> 00:14:56.378 Beth Hawks: So, yeah, I kind of forgot that you'd read it, and listeners probably wouldn't have yet. 00:14:56.848 --> 00:15:02.188 So, so yeah, I was doing, you know, beginning of class retrieval practice. 00:15:02.258 --> 00:15:05.179 I used the Popsicle sticks to help distribute things, right? 00:15:05.188 --> 00:15:12.168 And my rule was you can't just say, "I don't know," because as soon as you do that, everybody says they don't know and nobody's answering questions anymore. 00:15:12.549 --> 00:15:16.708 And so I asked a girl, a- and I tried to keep them relatively simple questions. 00:15:16.708 --> 00:15:18.419 The idea was that it was sort of rapid fire. 00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:23.088 And she said, "I don't know." And I said, "Well, you know, I'm not gonna accept that. 00:15:23.468 --> 00:15:23.978 Just guess. 00:15:23.978 --> 00:15:30.008 Just tell me something." And and she'd stopped for a long time and she said, "I j- I just really don't know." 00:15:31.252 --> 00:15:35.442 And I can't remember quite how we got out of it, but we did at some point move on. 00:15:35.452 --> 00:15:50.282 And I got an email from her mom that night that said, you know, "She doesn't know I'm writing to you, but but I wanted to explain what happened." And this girl like, English was not her native language, but she spoke very good English, so sometimes I forgot that English was not her native language. 00:15:50.912 --> 00:15:57.202 And she said, you know, she was trying to translate it in her head, and then she couldn't remember the answer in English. 00:15:57.902 --> 00:16:06.962 And she said, and then she got to the point where she couldn't remember any words in English other than, "I don't know." And I felt terrible because, you know, who wants to embarrass a child like that? 00:16:07.312 --> 00:16:13.172 But I was so grateful for her mom because one, she spoke to her daughter very kindly about me. 00:16:13.172 --> 00:16:19.252 She said, "You know, I know Ms. Hawks is- was doing what she thought was right for you." You know, she didn't throw me under the bus with her child. 00:16:19.532 --> 00:16:24.662 But she would've been fully justified in just ripping me a new one, and and she didn't. 00:16:24.672 --> 00:16:34.642 She gave me the opportunity to, one, repair things with her daughter, and two to make sure that didn't happen with other people's daughters and sons in the future. 00:16:34.652 --> 00:16:34.672 Yeah. 00:16:35.082 --> 00:16:39.312 And about, it's funny, about two weeks later I was listening to, do you know Craig Barton's podcast? 00:16:39.312 --> 00:16:39.572 Gene Tavernetti: Yes. 00:16:40.582 --> 00:16:40.712 Beth Hawks: The Teacher. 00:16:40.712 --> 00:16:48.952 So Dylan William was on his podcast, and they had a whole conversation about how to not let "I don't know" be the end of the conversation, and I was like, "Man, I just heard it, like, three weeks too late." 00:16:50.832 --> 00:16:52.632 Gene Tavernetti: So g- so what did you learn? 00:16:52.682 --> 00:16:53.862 What did you learn from there? 00:16:53.872 --> 00:16:55.632 Well- You know, how did you handle those? 00:16:55.632 --> 00:16:58.672 Did you handle who you called differently? 00:16:58.692 --> 00:17:00.922 Did you handle your response differently? 00:17:00.922 --> 00:17:02.612 W- how did you- No, no … adjust that? 00:17:02.832 --> 00:17:02.852 So 00:17:03.342 --> 00:17:13.722 Beth Hawks: I still kind of did it the same way, but when a student said, "I don't know," I might have one time said, "Come on, give me a guess." But after that the suggestions he made were really interesting. 00:17:13.722 --> 00:17:17.642 One was like phone a friend, like ask them if they wanna ask somebody else. 00:17:17.682 --> 00:17:17.982 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:17:18.082 --> 00:17:21.532 Beth Hawks: And say, "Do you agree with them?" Or turn it into a multiple choice question. 00:17:22.092 --> 00:17:26.022 You know, if I had given her, like, a couple of answers and said, "Choose from these," you know, or that kind of thing. 00:17:26.302 --> 00:17:29.242 And so, like, just basically lightening up the tension of it. 00:17:29.482 --> 00:17:29.502 Yeah. 00:17:29.512 --> 00:17:35.312 So they still have to interact with the question, but they're not being forced to produce an answer on their own Y- 00:17:35.672 --> 00:17:42.532 Gene Tavernetti: you know, it's funny, one of the things that you mentioned was that if you accept "I don't know," then everybody's, you know, I don't know. 00:17:42.722 --> 00:17:46.152 I was working with a middle school teacher once, and he was having that problem. 00:17:46.842 --> 00:17:53.322 You know, he did, you know, he was doing his retrieval at the beginning of class and he'd ask a student a question. 00:17:53.322 --> 00:18:02.802 They'd say, "I don't know." So we talked about that and I said, "Well, how about you do this?" And I, something that I'd seen other teachers do successfully, say, "No problem, I'll get back to you." 00:18:03.662 --> 00:18:06.132 Beth Hawks: Yes, that was another suggestion, yeah. 00:18:06.132 --> 00:18:17.028 Gene Tavernetti: And the funny part about that was that- The next time I went to observe his class, you could tell he had been doing that because the kids learned how to game that one. 00:18:17.348 --> 00:18:18.058 Beth Hawks: They take them back. 00:18:18.818 --> 00:18:19.028 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:18:20.508 --> 00:18:20.698 Yeah. 00:18:20.698 --> 00:18:24.518 He alw- he always went back, but they realized, "Ah, I don't have to answer the first time." 00:18:24.668 --> 00:18:27.218 So it, that, like you say, it's messy. 00:18:27.258 --> 00:18:31.718 What goes on in classrooms is messy, but there's nothing fatal and nothing final. 00:18:31.778 --> 00:18:34.078 I mean, you can always- Right … you can always get to it. 00:18:34.248 --> 00:18:42.248 And something interesting that you alluded to, if you didn't exactly say this right now, was something that you know, you talked about learning styles. 00:18:42.298 --> 00:18:51.418 Ano- another thing that I heard about that same time which was decades ago was don't tell a student they're wrong. 00:18:51.928 --> 00:18:52.338 You know? 00:18:52.338 --> 00:18:52.368 Oh, god. 00:18:52.368 --> 00:18:54.088 Don't correct them, you know? 00:18:54.318 --> 00:18:59.698 Oh, that's an interesting answer, but you don't, y- you're not, you don't have a problem correcting students. 00:19:00.508 --> 00:19:00.828 Beth Hawks: I don't. 00:19:00.828 --> 00:19:03.188 I mean, I think a lot of it's in how you approach it. 00:19:03.258 --> 00:19:07.658 I would either sort of try to make it silly and be like, "Not quite. 00:19:07.658 --> 00:19:17.518 Thank you for playing." Or I would sometimes when they're almost right, you know, you can say like, "Well, I can see why you would think that, but let me explain why it's something else." Yeah. 00:19:17.518 --> 00:19:21.058 Because, I mean, if we don't correct them, then we're not really teaching them, right? 00:19:21.058 --> 00:19:23.788 We're just letting them keep their misconceptions, so. 00:19:24.408 --> 00:19:31.968 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, and I don't think, a- and I don't think the kids are as fragile in those situations as folks make 'em out to be. 00:19:32.018 --> 00:19:33.008 Beth Hawks: Yeah, exactly. 00:19:33.018 --> 00:19:33.238 Gene Tavernetti: Y- you know? 00:19:33.238 --> 00:19:38.028 You know, I think part of the culture of school they realize they're gonna get put on the spot, and it's- Mm-hmm 00:19:38.088 --> 00:19:40.218 it's their turn to get put on the spot. 00:19:40.438 --> 00:19:43.558 Beth Hawks: Kids are more comfortable with a lot of things than adults are, I think. 00:19:44.138 --> 00:19:44.158 Yeah. 00:19:44.428 --> 00:19:44.498 Yes. 00:19:44.608 --> 00:19:57.268 Like, we get locked into certain, like, "Well, it must be this way," and I think kids are a lot more open to… Especially in middle and high school, they've got six or seven different teachers, so they're used to kind of adapting, I think, to, to the different ways that we do things. 00:19:58.248 --> 00:19:59.198 Gene Tavernetti: A- absolutely. 00:19:59.238 --> 00:20:06.588 Now we didn't talk about this before, but I'm curious about you know, you mentioned you came back, you tried something. 00:20:06.598 --> 00:20:09.078 You talked to teachers to get them to try something. 00:20:09.638 --> 00:20:15.268 Did you ever receive any feedback, or other teachers when they tried things, to receive feedback? 00:20:15.548 --> 00:20:22.028 Because I- let me tell you, and I'm asking you this really because of a new context. 00:20:22.028 --> 00:20:24.618 A new thing that you do is that you're a fitness instructor. 00:20:25.038 --> 00:20:25.278 Beth Hawks: Yes. 00:20:26.008 --> 00:20:32.998 Gene Tavernetti: And one of the things we know about fitness, regardless of what we're doing, is how you do it makes a difference. 00:20:33.008 --> 00:20:34.858 Form makes a difference. 00:20:35.528 --> 00:20:39.638 So, and- and that's part of your job as the instructor is giving feedback. 00:20:39.748 --> 00:20:49.038 So when you talked to teachers about what you had learned, were they able to get any feedback about the things that they tried? 00:20:50.198 --> 00:20:54.298 Beth Hawks: So the, probably the biggest one, I- lots of little things. 00:20:54.318 --> 00:21:01.488 You know, people who had tried stuff and said, "This worked, but it kind of didn't. Maybe if I tweak it this way." We would talk through some of those ideas. 00:21:01.838 --> 00:21:06.858 But the one that I- I found the most fun was a seventh grade English teacher, who also had been my student. 00:21:08.468 --> 00:21:23.838 But she was, we were, I was in a faculty meeting, and a friend of mine and I had presented, I think we talked about working memory, and we were talking about using whiteboards and retrieval as a way of offloading that too, like, you know, taking a pause in the middle and just doing a little, well, active recovery. 00:21:24.268 --> 00:21:37.958 And and about three weeks later she came in and she said, "Oh, my goodness, this is a game changer." And because she taught English, her take on it was a little bit different from mine because I was, you know, reinforcing answers. 00:21:37.968 --> 00:21:43.958 She was doing more like, "What do you think's gonna happen next?" Or, "Why do you think, you know, this character did this?" 00:21:44.078 --> 00:21:44.708 Oh, okay. 00:21:45.008 --> 00:21:55.932 And she said, "I am finally hearing from my introverts." Which I thought was such a great take because they didn't mind writing it on the whiteboard and holding it up, but they did not wanna talk out loud. 00:21:56.312 --> 00:22:00.692 And she said, "They have really insightful things to say that I haven't been getting until now." 00:22:01.082 --> 00:22:03.842 So I thought that was a, a great piece of feedback from her. 00:22:04.202 --> 00:22:05.212 Gene Tavernetti: Oh, you know what? 00:22:05.222 --> 00:22:15.562 That is one of the books that really changed the way that I looked at the interactions of students and what we asked students to do was Susan Cain's book Quiet. 00:22:15.562 --> 00:22:15.722 Quiet. 00:22:15.722 --> 00:22:15.752 Yes. 00:22:16.362 --> 00:22:16.832 You know. 00:22:17.292 --> 00:22:26.532 Oh and if you, if teachers, if you haven't read it, I think it's, I think it's so important, especially if you're a teacher who puts kids in groups every day. 00:22:27.542 --> 00:22:27.712 Mm-hmm. 00:22:28.112 --> 00:22:30.112 You know, it is so tough. 00:22:30.592 --> 00:22:39.822 It is so tough on some kids, and so it's so easy to to misattribute silence- And I- … to resistance, to all sorts of things 00:22:40.142 --> 00:22:42.812 … Beth Hawks: I think we've been treating them like they're wrong. 00:22:43.082 --> 00:22:43.502 You know? 00:22:43.502 --> 00:22:45.142 Like, that, that's a problem to be fixed. 00:22:45.142 --> 00:22:46.542 We need to turn them into extroverts. 00:22:46.812 --> 00:22:47.172 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:22:47.452 --> 00:22:48.702 Beth Hawks: And they're not wrong. 00:22:48.772 --> 00:22:49.992 They are just different. 00:22:50.012 --> 00:22:52.512 Like, they're just expressing their thoughts differently. 00:22:52.822 --> 00:22:57.292 So yeah, finding a way that they could contribute and still be comfortable. 00:22:57.982 --> 00:22:58.452 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:22:59.332 --> 00:22:59.572 Beth Hawks: Yeah. 00:22:59.582 --> 00:23:00.262 Gene Tavernetti: So okay. 00:23:00.272 --> 00:23:03.442 So you started out… I'm gonna go back to 17 years ago. 00:23:03.442 --> 00:23:09.982 You went to conferences, you came back, and you shared with folks, and wanted to get them to try one or two things. 00:23:10.322 --> 00:23:17.822 But in your book, you've got 10 chapters, and each of those chapters is a topic in the science of learning. 00:23:17.852 --> 00:23:18.032 Beth Hawks: Yes. 00:23:18.602 --> 00:23:28.912 Gene Tavernetti: Is that something that before you left the classroom after your experience, you know, and learning all this, that you were able to do all the time consistently? 00:23:30.496 --> 00:23:31.916 Beth Hawks: Consistently, no. 00:23:32.896 --> 00:23:38.616 But those were the 10 topics that I felt like had made the biggest impact in my classroom. 00:23:38.676 --> 00:23:41.036 And of course, some of them are related to each other, right? 00:23:41.036 --> 00:23:43.876 Like formative assessment usually is also retrieval practice. 00:23:43.876 --> 00:23:43.976 Yeah. 00:23:43.976 --> 00:23:46.776 And so there's a lot of overlap to them as well. 00:23:46.776 --> 00:23:51.596 Gene Tavernetti: I'm sorry, Beth, before we continue, do you happen to have those in front of you that you could read them? 00:23:51.736 --> 00:23:52.576 Because I do. 00:23:52.606 --> 00:23:55.006 I could read them, so we could list all of them. 00:23:55.006 --> 00:23:55.408 You want me to do that? 00:23:55.408 --> 00:23:55.676 Ooh, that's, 00:23:56.126 --> 00:23:57.326 Beth Hawks: I don't have them in front of me, but if you want to. 00:23:57.326 --> 00:23:58.136 Gene Tavernetti: Okay, I do. 00:23:58.426 --> 00:23:58.646 I do. 00:23:58.666 --> 00:24:02.106 So let's, let- let's I'm just, I'm gonna read the 10- Okay … and these are your chapters. 00:24:02.116 --> 00:24:03.396 You're the- Yeah … read your chapters. 00:24:03.726 --> 00:24:05.396 One working memory. 00:24:05.846 --> 00:24:05.866 Yeah. 00:24:05.896 --> 00:24:08.006 Two- Yeah … clarity for learning. 00:24:08.646 --> 00:24:10.726 Three, prior knowledge and schema. 00:24:11.096 --> 00:24:13.486 Four, focus and diffuse models. 00:24:14.076 --> 00:24:15.736 Five, rich encoding. 00:24:16.186 --> 00:24:20.326 Six, the dangers of discovery learning, which we're gonna talk about in a second. 00:24:20.346 --> 00:24:24.366 The dangers of discovery learning, engagement is a means, not an end. 00:24:25.196 --> 00:24:27.216 Chapter seven, modeling and scaffolding. 00:24:27.586 --> 00:24:29.916 Chapter eight, when to memorize. 00:24:29.946 --> 00:24:31.236 Chapter nine, retrieval. 00:24:31.256 --> 00:24:33.196 And 10, formative assessment. 00:24:33.896 --> 00:24:34.076 Beth Hawks: Yes. 00:24:34.996 --> 00:24:38.886 Gene Tavernetti: So as you think about those, and you just, and I, before I rudely interrupted you. 00:24:38.886 --> 00:24:39.211 That's okay. 00:24:39.211 --> 00:24:42.794 So you talked about how they're not completely disparate. 00:24:43.184 --> 00:24:43.724 Beth Hawks: Right. 00:24:43.964 --> 00:24:48.984 So because all, what you're me- what you're doing retrieval on are the things you're memorizing. 00:24:48.994 --> 00:24:55.054 A lot of that is formative assessment, and some of it is to- Reduce the working memory load challenge. 00:24:55.064 --> 00:24:58.954 So I feel like there is, there's a ton of overlap between all of them. 00:24:59.354 --> 00:25:06.244 And I- that- I think learning about working memory was probably one of my bigger aha moments. 00:25:06.244 --> 00:25:09.224 Like, oh, in the trying to cover everything and fit thing in, right? 00:25:09.224 --> 00:25:10.924 Like, the pressure of curriculum. 00:25:11.134 --> 00:25:11.374 Gene Tavernetti: Yes. 00:25:11.464 --> 00:25:13.144 Beth Hawks: I'm making sure they learn nothing, right? 00:25:13.924 --> 00:25:31.874 Like, because I'm overloading it in thinking that I'm just, like, covering more, and actually trying to back up a little bit, notice those times when they're flipping without any evident direction through their notebook and you know, staring into the middle distance, just going, "Oh, this might be a time when we need to pause and- 00:25:32.094 --> 00:25:37.964 offload for a minute." And it's not gonna eat up that much class time, you know? 00:25:37.964 --> 00:25:41.154 I- But you know, it's, yeah … I say stand up, look up, look down, look left, look right, sit back down. 00:25:41.244 --> 00:25:42.734 You know, it doesn't have to take that much time. 00:25:42.734 --> 00:25:42.794 Y- 00:25:45.044 --> 00:25:56.544 Gene Tavernetti: you know, it's funny that you mention cognitive load because I've found in the t- 20 plus years that I've been, you know, talking to teachers about explicit instruction and coaching, that's one of the first things. 00:25:56.544 --> 00:25:57.964 That's one of the first pushbacks. 00:25:58.024 --> 00:25:59.514 We have so much to cover. 00:25:59.964 --> 00:26:00.494 Beth Hawks: Mm-hmm. 00:26:00.594 --> 00:26:00.714 We have s- And 00:26:00.904 --> 00:26:01.134 Gene Tavernetti: it's a real concern. 00:26:01.134 --> 00:26:02.494 It's leg- it's legitimate. 00:26:02.494 --> 00:26:08.234 It- On the other hand, what you just said, you know, it's it's one of those things that it is an aha moment. 00:26:08.234 --> 00:26:12.404 It's like, yeah I … You know, it's the old joke, I taught it but nobody learned 00:26:12.534 --> 00:26:12.554 Beth Hawks: it. 00:26:12.554 --> 00:26:13.514 Nobody learned it, yeah. 00:26:14.484 --> 00:26:14.954 Gene Tavernetti: You know? 00:26:15.064 --> 00:26:20.234 So, so was that a big moment for you and for other teachers as you talk to them? 00:26:20.234 --> 00:26:23.754 And the presentations that you do, is that one of the emphasis that you have? 00:26:24.044 --> 00:26:26.704 Beth Hawks: Yeah, I do think that it's brought up a lot. 00:26:26.714 --> 00:26:28.384 Like, well then how do we cover everything? 00:26:28.474 --> 00:26:29.774 And I'm like, "Well, you probably can't." 00:26:31.934 --> 00:26:35.794 So, like, I had it down pretty well in physical science and physics. 00:26:35.844 --> 00:26:41.024 In chemistry, I had to make this decision every year, we're not gonna cover everything, what chapter do I leave out? 00:26:41.104 --> 00:26:45.694 Or, you know, like, how do we get d- what's less essential than others, right? 00:26:45.734 --> 00:26:50.124 'Cause there are some things they've got to learn about my curriculum, and then there are some things we could let go. 00:26:50.824 --> 00:26:55.624 And I also think too, sometimes explicit teaching is the most efficient. 00:26:55.664 --> 00:27:03.444 So you might actually save some time if you're not trying to have them figure things out on their own for every lesson that you're doing things with. 00:27:03.444 --> 00:27:04.494 And, Yeah. 00:27:04.584 --> 00:27:10.554 Like just trying to figure out where you can work that in while also pausing now and then for working on their load. 00:27:10.554 --> 00:27:10.704 Well, a- 00:27:11.024 --> 00:27:27.834 Gene Tavernetti: And you know, I think thank you for mentioning Teach Fast earlier, and we're gonna bring it up again because one of the things that you just mentioned is one of the things that the teachers realize, is that there is a lot of slack in their lessons that they don't know about. 00:27:27.844 --> 00:27:28.604 Beth Hawks: Mm-hmm. 00:27:28.674 --> 00:27:32.834 Gene Tavernetti: And once you g- you know, like, they'll say look at our pacing guide. 00:27:32.834 --> 00:27:44.834 We can't cover it." And I'm saying, "Right now it's just a theoretical document, but I think you're gonna find that you're gonna be getting through more content if we take a look at these things from the science of learning." 00:27:45.184 --> 00:27:45.254 Mm-hmm. 00:27:45.314 --> 00:27:46.884 And they're gonna remember more. 00:27:46.884 --> 00:27:48.364 You're gonna be able to move on. 00:27:48.364 --> 00:27:50.114 You're gonna…" You know, et ce- et cetera, et cetera. 00:27:50.384 --> 00:27:55.494 So I, so it's like you say, all of these things are related, and none of them are disparate. 00:27:55.854 --> 00:28:06.904 So you talk to when you do your presentations, you know, you're talking at ResearchEd throughout the country what, what do, what's your favorite topic to talk about with teachers? 00:28:07.875 --> 00:28:10.935 Beth Hawks: in the last two years I've done basically two topics. 00:28:11.335 --> 00:28:13.305 In the next three months I'm gonna be doing four. 00:28:15.065 --> 00:28:17.165 So I don't know if I have an answer to that yet. 00:28:17.175 --> 00:28:24.735 So far I've mostly done formative assessment, because when I was trying to come up with something that I could present at conferences, I was like, "Well, what's not out there?" 00:28:24.765 --> 00:28:25.075 Right? 00:28:25.075 --> 00:28:28.115 I wasn't gonna go to a conference with Andrew Watson and talk about working memory. 00:28:28.125 --> 00:28:29.935 He's already got that covered. 00:28:30.425 --> 00:28:33.365 And so I felt like formative assessment was one I hadn't seen a ton. 00:28:33.645 --> 00:28:46.085 And then last year I added to it helping students study, because that became, after I found cognitive science, that became my favorite thing to do, was to talk to students about what they were doing. 00:28:46.085 --> 00:28:51.455 Like, so if a student, like, failed a test or didn't do as well as they would've liked, I'd be like, "Come on in. Let's talk." Yeah. 00:28:51.485 --> 00:28:56.445 And they would tell me what they were doing, and I would s- be like, "Okay, here's why that's not working. 00:28:56.455 --> 00:29:00.655 Now let's talk about how you can tweak it, and, you know, okay, you make flashcards, that's awesome. 00:29:00.655 --> 00:29:13.025 Now how are you using them?" And so I developed a talk on that last year, and I, that I've really enjoyed presenting on, because that's one where I think you can have a big impact too 'cause that's not just gonna help them in your class. 00:29:13.465 --> 00:29:14.335 That's gonna help- Right … them all. 00:29:14.935 --> 00:29:15.265 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:29:15.865 --> 00:29:16.055 Beth Hawks: Yeah. 00:29:16.065 --> 00:29:22.515 Gene Tavernetti: So j- so to kind of piggyback on that, do you, did you teach your students about science of learning? 00:29:22.715 --> 00:29:23.475 Beth Hawks: I did. 00:29:23.535 --> 00:29:26.665 Now not as much as, as I was learning. 00:29:26.985 --> 00:29:28.965 I had to hold myself back from telling them everything. 00:29:29.585 --> 00:29:36.865 But I actually found it helped with their motivation, like if they understood how their brain worked. 00:29:37.315 --> 00:29:39.565 I think it was the goal with learning styles, right? 00:29:39.565 --> 00:29:42.535 Like, even though they were wrong, I think it was well-intended that they thought- Yeah 00:29:42.545 --> 00:29:44.625 well, if you know how your brain works it'll make you more motivated. 00:29:45.035 --> 00:29:50.935 And actually knowing it and saying, "Okay, now here's what's gonna, here might be what will help," because it works with your brain instead of against it. 00:29:51.275 --> 00:29:52.585 They c- they would have fun with it. 00:29:52.595 --> 00:29:54.515 They'd come in and be like, "Let me show you my flashcards. 00:29:54.555 --> 00:29:57.505 Let me show you what I did." So, yeah, we did. 00:29:57.505 --> 00:29:58.265 We talked a lot about it. 00:29:58.265 --> 00:30:05.215 I would do, like about a week before our first test, I would do a lesson on studying with them, like a full class lesson. 00:30:05.705 --> 00:30:13.035 And th- but it was really the individual conversations that had the impact because then they were coming in 'cause they knew they needed it, you know? 00:30:13.065 --> 00:30:13.275 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:30:14.205 --> 00:30:30.279 Well, I really think that teachers are gonna get a lot out of this, and you've presented it in a way that they're gonna be able to talk about it in the staff room, is what, you know- … one of the things that, that, that you- Mm-hmm … that you talked about, because they can talk about what they do. 00:30:30.749 --> 00:30:30.769 Mm-hmm. 00:30:30.829 --> 00:30:41.159 Now y- now in, in your final chapter you you included something that I hear, and I don't understand when I hear it. 00:30:41.499 --> 00:30:41.809 Beth Hawks: Okay. 00:30:41.849 --> 00:30:49.319 Gene Tavernetti: And that is, W- you know, so there's this evidence, there's this evidence about how we learn, but nobody can tell you how to teach 00:30:52.201 --> 00:30:53.081 And I- I 00:30:53.081 --> 00:30:53.411 Beth Hawks: said it? 00:30:54.981 --> 00:30:56.861 Gene Tavernetti: You didn't say it, but- Oh, okay. 00:30:56.861 --> 00:30:58.536 I think I think you, you quoted Tom Sherrington. 00:30:59.806 --> 00:31:00.256 Beth Hawks: Okay. 00:31:00.276 --> 00:31:01.646 Gene Tavernetti: You quoted Tom Sherrington. 00:31:01.696 --> 00:31:03.856 I've heard other people say it. 00:31:03.916 --> 00:31:06.646 I heard Jor- oh, what's the fella? 00:31:06.656 --> 00:31:07.186 Horvath. 00:31:07.206 --> 00:31:10.926 What's the guy who just wrote the Digital Delusions book? 00:31:10.986 --> 00:31:11.466 Jared. 00:31:11.556 --> 00:31:16.766 Jared Horvath says, you know, he says, "I always tell teachers, you know, nobody can tell you how to teach." 00:31:17.016 --> 00:31:21.046 And I'm thinking I just got a lot of good advice from Beth here." 00:31:23.426 --> 00:31:29.196 Beth Hawks: I think maybe where I would be going with that is I don't wanna tell you exactly what to do. 00:31:29.836 --> 00:31:30.236 Gene Tavernetti: Okay. 00:31:30.616 --> 00:31:37.596 Beth Hawks: Because, like, good advice is one thing, but you have to figure out how to make that work for you and your students and your content. 00:31:38.196 --> 00:31:51.366 So, that might be a better way to put it, is that I w- I wanna give you more way to think about it to build your own professional judgment so that when you're making decisions, teachers make thousands of decisions a day on the fly. 00:31:51.376 --> 00:31:51.396 Yeah. 00:31:51.716 --> 00:31:56.096 Like, what is, what are some concepts you should have in your head that you're basing those decisions on? 00:31:56.266 --> 00:32:02.716 Gene Tavernetti: Well, I think if we have a science of learning that doesn't give us some direction about how to teach, it's not worth anything. 00:32:02.716 --> 00:32:03.646 Beth Hawks: Right. 00:32:03.646 --> 00:32:03.836 Right, right. 00:32:03.836 --> 00:32:04.096 Gene Tavernetti: You know? 00:32:04.316 --> 00:32:09.636 It's just nice- Yeah … we can walk around and, you know, at a party and- … and have a drink in our hand. 00:32:12.076 --> 00:32:13.206 Oh, gosh. 00:32:13.266 --> 00:32:17.386 Beth, it has been it has been wonderful, and I hope people will buy your book. 00:32:17.386 --> 00:32:18.566 When's it gonna be available? 00:32:19.136 --> 00:32:22.036 Beth Hawks: It comes out August 6th, so you can pre-order it now. 00:32:22.066 --> 00:32:24.716 It's on the- Okay … Bloomsbury website and on Amazon. 00:32:25.116 --> 00:32:25.596 Gene Tavernetti: Awesome. 00:32:25.606 --> 00:32:25.966 Okay. 00:32:26.606 --> 00:32:27.276 Beth Hawks: So yeah. 00:32:27.276 --> 00:32:29.066 But it two weeks from today. 00:32:29.066 --> 00:32:30.646 Well, it'll be a week once this airs. 00:32:31.566 --> 00:32:33.516 Gene Tavernetti: Well, well, it'll- Okay … it, but it's available now. 00:32:33.516 --> 00:32:36.226 So okay, Beth- Yeah … do you have any questions for me? 00:32:37.116 --> 00:32:40.996 Beth Hawks: So I am interested in your journey here too. 00:32:41.026 --> 00:32:45.166 Like, when did you discover the science of learning, and how did that change your practice? 00:32:45.616 --> 00:32:54.926 Gene Tavernetti: Well, As I told you before we started I had a couple experiences with football coaches who were just outstanding teachers. 00:32:55.816 --> 00:33:00.926 You know, they would break things down, what folks would say in science, atomization. 00:33:00.926 --> 00:33:01.556 Mm-hmm. 00:33:01.856 --> 00:33:02.296 You know? 00:33:02.516 --> 00:33:10.736 But I would just say it was step by step, and I thought, "Man, this is … I could teach anybody anything if I knew how to do it." Yeah. 00:33:10.736 --> 00:33:12.796 If I know how to do it, now I can teach them. 00:33:13.336 --> 00:33:21.806 But I didn't know how to translate that into, … Like, I was social studies, so- typical social studies coach, right? 00:33:22.296 --> 00:33:23.446 So I had no idea. 00:33:23.446 --> 00:33:24.976 I was a good teacher as a coach. 00:33:25.336 --> 00:33:26.176 That was my strength. 00:33:26.496 --> 00:33:29.126 But I, classroom, I had no idea how to do that. 00:33:29.636 --> 00:33:44.374 And so, when I when I went to work as a consultant and I had a chance to see teacher after teacher we would train in explicit instruction and then coach It all came together for me. 00:33:45.634 --> 00:33:51.854 And then when I saw something work, that there's gotta be an explanation for this. 00:33:51.864 --> 00:33:51.884 Yeah. 00:33:52.004 --> 00:33:53.814 There's gotta be an explanation for this. 00:33:54.164 --> 00:34:11.334 And so the actual science of learning, I would say I did more like 18 or 19 years just studying teachers and classroom instruction, and getting people to do- getting good teachers to, to tweak and to do this. 00:34:11.674 --> 00:34:17.864 And then what I learned when I got into the science of learning cult it you know, everything was explained. 00:34:18.564 --> 00:34:25.474 You know, you know, ev- everything was explained, "Oh, this is why this works. This is why this works. This is why this works." Mm-hmm. 00:34:25.504 --> 00:34:30.364 And if something doesn't work, I can also realize this is why it doesn't work. 00:34:30.934 --> 00:34:33.784 And so that … my journey was kind of backdoor. 00:34:34.594 --> 00:34:34.664 Beth Hawks: Mm-hmm. 00:34:34.724 --> 00:34:36.044 Gene Tavernetti: And and yeah. 00:34:36.094 --> 00:34:37.864 And that's where … and like Teach Fast. 00:34:37.864 --> 00:34:45.524 So I would say Teach Fast is not a … which is being reissued and should be out, should be available in the next week or so. 00:34:45.824 --> 00:34:47.234 But but that's what it is. 00:34:47.234 --> 00:34:48.654 It's almost like an ethnography. 00:34:48.704 --> 00:34:50.964 It's like I've just been observed. 00:34:50.974 --> 00:34:51.304 Mm-hmm. 00:34:51.344 --> 00:34:54.314 "Let's try this," and that's how I came to it. 00:34:54.854 --> 00:35:02.324 Beth Hawks: That, that is one of the things I found, was like a lot of stuff we either did intuitively or did, found worked by trial and error. 00:35:02.894 --> 00:35:06.394 When I learned about the science of learning, I was like, "Oh, that's backing up the trial and error." 00:35:06.434 --> 00:35:06.714 Like- 00:35:06.754 --> 00:35:06.994 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:35:07.224 --> 00:35:09.093 Beth Hawks: Yes … it just enabled me to do it more intentionally. 00:35:09.463 --> 00:35:10.183 Gene Tavernetti: Yes. 00:35:10.553 --> 00:35:10.863 Yes. 00:35:11.003 --> 00:35:11.133 Beth Hawks: Planned. 00:35:11.733 --> 00:35:12.133 Yes. 00:35:12.793 --> 00:35:14.043 Instead of wandering my way into it. 00:35:14.563 --> 00:35:14.863 Gene Tavernetti: Yes. 00:35:15.103 --> 00:35:28.453 Well, and was, w- also I would have loved to have a chance to work with you because the most exciting times when I was coaching was with teachers who really had it almo- they were expert when I walked in. 00:35:29.083 --> 00:35:41.363 And so I got to see what they were doing and to have conversations with them, and when they tried something, it wasn't, you know, like I went to a conference and I have no idea, I'm gonna try it cold. 00:35:41.533 --> 00:35:45.483 They realize, "No, I just need to tweak this just a touch." Yeah. 00:35:45.713 --> 00:35:47.373 And to see how much it happened. 00:35:47.693 --> 00:36:00.933 You know, I'll never forget as working with high school coaches, and the coaches were all department chairs in the school and so they were adding on a coaching element to them. 00:36:01.927 --> 00:36:04.357 And I'll never forget working with the science teacher. 00:36:04.357 --> 00:36:06.167 We were going through coaching cycles. 00:36:06.257 --> 00:36:15.867 It was a physics teacher, so, I was gonna observe the AP Physics class, which I ditched all of science once I realized I wanted to be a, you know, a coach. 00:36:16.057 --> 00:36:22.297 Like, I don't need to … Any- anyway, so, asked her what she was teaching, and I don't remember. 00:36:22.307 --> 00:36:38.877 There were two … She goes, "I'm gonna teach … I got two things I want to teach tomorrow. One of them is the subject that Einstein got his Nobel Prize on, and the other one is…" And she told me something else, and I thought, "Wait a second. That seems like a lot." You know? 00:36:41.087 --> 00:36:44.647 So anyway she agreed to, okay, she was just gonna teach this one thing. 00:36:45.947 --> 00:36:52.327 And we went through the you know, planning a lesson together using, you know, using explicit instruction framework. 00:36:52.887 --> 00:36:58.137 She went in and she said, "I'm gonna tell you though, I'm gonna tell you right now, my kids aren't used to this. 00:36:58.137 --> 00:37:06.387 They're not gonna like it, because what I normally do, I go in, talk for a couple minutes, give them something to work on, and they're working with their partners. 00:37:07.457 --> 00:37:24.167 They're not gonna like this, and I'm gonna ask them after." So I go in and I watch this lesson, and I mean, God, I wish I had a video. To this day, it's one of the best lessons that I've ever seen. I mean, you know, just in every place where we talked about, "Well, after this, maybe we should check for understanding. 00:37:24.177 --> 00:37:29.127 You want to go … You know, you don't want to go too far before you have to…" I mean, she was just awesome. 00:37:29.907 --> 00:37:43.377 And the next day, we go in to do the debrief, and I said, what'd your kids think?" And she said, "Oh, they liked the lesson." She said, "They said I didn't need to give them two examples. 00:37:43.377 --> 00:37:44.717 The first one was a good example. 00:37:44.717 --> 00:37:55.657 I didn't need to give them two." So they didn't even notice and I guess that's the point is that you know, like, like you said, we expect the kids to be these fragile … No. 00:37:55.877 --> 00:37:58.877 You know, they understand when something good is happening, too. 00:37:58.967 --> 00:38:00.507 I mean, they were good with it. 00:38:00.837 --> 00:38:05.447 So anyway, I don't know how I got there, but, anything else we should be talking about, Beth? 00:38:06.457 --> 00:38:07.487 Beth Hawks: I think we're good. 00:38:07.487 --> 00:38:08.557 I think we've covered a 00:38:08.557 --> 00:38:08.837 Gene Tavernetti: lot. 00:38:08.837 --> 00:38:09.407 All right. 00:38:09.427 --> 00:38:10.627 Well, it was great. 00:38:10.677 --> 00:38:20.837 You know, it was a little bit of work getting together here today, but but I appreciate appreciate the opportunity to have a chance to talk to you about your new book, and the title is 00:38:21.497 --> 00:38:24.717 … Beth Hawks: Show Your Work: Teaching Smarter with the Science of Learning. 00:38:24.907 --> 00:38:25.997 Gene Tavernetti: Awesome, Beth. 00:38:26.037 --> 00:38:26.997 We'll talk to you soon. 00:38:27.407 --> 00:38:28.027 Beth Hawks: Thank you. 00:38:30.278 --> 00:38:32.918 Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:38:33.218 --> 00:38:38.788 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:38:39.478 --> 00:38:49.558 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:38:49.968 --> 00:38:50.398 Tesscg. 00:38:51.388 --> 00:39:06.758 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.