Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that works.
My guest today is Beth Hawks.
Beth taught middle school and high school science for 25 years, serving as the science department chair for Grace Christian School in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Beth taught eighth grade physical science, physics, chemistry, algebra 1B, health, photography, and yearbook.
Not all in the same year, of course.
And after becoming aware of the science of learning, she frequently provided professional development to colleagues in her role as a resident brain enthusiast.
She now moved into consulting full-time under the name of Learning Hawk.
Her first book, Show Your Work: Teaching Smarter with Science of Learning, describes her real teacher experiences of implementing the science of learning techniques in their classrooms.
We'll be talking to Beth about her book and her journey into the science of learning.
I think you're gonna like this one
Hi, Beth.
Welcome to Better Teaching: Only Stuff that Works.
Beth Hawks: Hi, Gene.
Thanks for having me.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, it's my pleasure and like I told you before we started recording I was a little bit hesitant about reading another book on science of learning, and I was very excited to, to see how you put yours together, where it wasn't another rehashing of a rehashing of what we think about the science of learning, but it's actually you went into the classroom to talk about classroom experiences.
And not only your own but with other teachers as well.
Beth Hawks: Yeah that's what I wanted it to be.
I, 'cause I, I read tons of these.
Like, every time I come home from a conference, I've got four or five more books.
I love them, but I, that's what I found was lacking in them, that, like, they were either written by researchers, which I was a science teacher, so I love that.
You get … lots of how.
But lots of jargon.
If you're not trained in how to parse science language, it can be a nightmare.
Or it was, like, translators of research, like John Almarode or Andrew Watson or Barbara Oakley, and those were great, but I never … I'd get done with a book, and I'd be like, "Well, that was a lot neater than my classroom is," you know?
And so, I wanted, yeah, I wanted something that reflected that reality of, yeah, you're gonna try this, and the first time you're probably gonna mess it up, and you're gonna need to tweak it.
And, you know, what are the challenges for all of that?
And
… Gene Tavernetti: So, so that was the gap.
You know, that was it seems to me that's the gap you're trying to fill, so that- Yeah
so you talk about two types of folks in this field.
Is, you know, the actual researchers who write for the researchers, and And then people who interpret it, which is a big … Y- you know, everybody wants to do that now, don't they?
It's like, how can we get this implemented?
So how did you- And
Beth Hawks: thank the Lord for them.
Yeah.
I would've been lost- … if I, if there hadn't been those.
But you're still f- So I'm not anti either of those.
I just want- You're
Gene Tavernetti: still filling a gap.
You're still trying to fill the gap.
So what do you think that gap looks like?
What, you know
… Beth Hawks: I think it is saying, like, these are the challenges, right?
That you're gonna try to implement this, and it might work great first period and not so well third period, right?
And what do you have to tweak in order to make that?
The best analogy I've ever heard on it, do you know who David Daniel is?
Gene Tavernetti: No.
Beth Hawks: He's he was a psychology professor at James Madison University.
I think he works with NIH now.
But he did a keynote at a conference I was at, and he said, "Research is like growing plants in a greenhouse," because they have so much control over the variables- Yeah … and, you know, all of that.
And he said, "Teaching in your classroom is like growing plants in your yard." You know, we've had two months of drought and then two weeks of nonstop rain, right?
That's not happening in a greenhouse.
But it doesn't mean those lessons from research are wrong.
It just means you have to adapt them to your yard.
And so I kinda wanted to write something that looked like it was in the yard instead of in the greenhouse.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, and I think there's two things as you're doing that.
Not only that you wanted to provide that for teachers, but how do you get teachers to try stuff, you know?
I-
Beth Hawks: Yeah, I think making it approachable is the way to do it, right?
To say, "You're gonna do this imperfectly, and that's okay." You know?
Right.
It's gonna, it's gonna be messy in the beginning, and just embrace that 'cause that's what's
You know, we tell our kids to try new things.
We gotta tell ourselves that too sometimes.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, we have to tell ourselves that.
And you said you were c- you didn't use the word, but I'm gonna use it, you're kind of a research nerd or geek, you know?
And so you're w- you're willing to d- you're willing to do those, willing to try these things.
Yeah.
What was it for you, what was the impetus for you to s- to say, "Wow, this science of learning stuff, I'm standing up I'm sitting up, I'm gonna try some of these things"?
Beth Hawks: So I was a per- … This is very funny.
In my personnel file at my old job it says I don't seek out professional development.
Which at the time … Because one, I didn't wanna leave my classroom.
I was like, "I don't wanna stop teaching to be a better teacher." And then two, they weren't always great.
And so I got, I just got a brochure in my mailbox at school one day, and was on my way to the recycling bin with it like you do, when I
It was from Learning in the Brain.
And I noticed somebody, some speaker on it, and I was like, "Oh, I'll take a look at this." And I had door duty, so I was standing there doing my door duty, greeting kids and looking at this brochure.
And I was, like, sold.
Like, this is clearly for smart people.
And so I convinced the school that they should send me.
And they said, "Okay, when you get back you have to do a presentation." I was like, "Deal." And I mean, I got there and I was like, "This is awesome." Because I knew there had been brain research for a long time, but that didn't necessarily translate into practice.
And so having people say, like, "Well, here's what you, here's what you can do," was great.
Now, it doesn't translate quite that neatly, right?
Like, you don't just come back and go, "Well, now they'll do that thing." But it did give me a way to think about it.
And I liked it so much that I asked my parents if they would send me the next year, 'cause I didn't expect the school to come forward again.
So I was like,
" Gene Tavernetti: For
Beth Hawks: my birthday present, could you send me to Learning in the Brain again?" That's great.
So yeah, it was a great- So
Gene Tavernetti: What was your big takeaway from that conference?
Was there s- something that really hit you, that said, "Wow, I'm gonna listen to the rest of this"?
Beth Hawks: So well, I'm hoping this doesn't sound too dismissive, but the first time somebody said, "There's no evidence for learning styles," I wanted to jump up and say, "Hallelujah."
Because you know, we'd all been trained in that.
From even when I was in middle school we'd been taking those.
And you can't make three lesson plans.
Like, and then you feel guilty that you're not making three lesson plans, you know?
And so they were like no.
What you wanna do is, like, make one really high-quality lesson with good visuals paired with…"
So and I was like, "I can do that," you know?
Like, something I could do.
And and that didn't require, like, turning my entire practice upside down, 'cause I'd been teaching- 17 or 18 years at that point.
And so it wasn't like I was gonna reinvent everything, and so I was like, "Oh, these are things I can actually, you know, take from what I'm already doing and modify it."
And I was… You know, I'd been doing bell work from my first year, 'cause I grew up in the Harry Wong first days of school days.
And and so I was like, "What if I just make those retrieval practice questions?" That, you know, like how can I- Right … fit into what I'm already doing?
So.
Gene Tavernetti: So, so you go to the conference and you find out that you know, praise the Lord, no learning styles.
Yeah.
And then you come back, so you have to… Well, you probably didn't stop doing that, because I'm sure you never were doing three lesson plans because-
Beth Hawks: No, nobody is.
But then you feel guilty that you're not.
So I could stop feeling guilty, and I was like, "This is fantastic."
Gene Tavernetti: So, so what else?
Okay, so you had your, you know, your do now retrieval.
You started including that.
What else did you… A- and maybe it doesn't have to necessarily be from that conference, but how did you- Right … make a transition, you know, into science of learning-
Beth Hawks: So- … habits?
… I think the next step may have been the following summer.
I read Powerful Teaching the Pooja Agarwal and Patrice Bain book.
And and I was like, "Okay, I had been doing retrieval," but it was mostly like review at the end of the chapter, right?
We're getting ready for a test.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Beth Hawks: Now let's do that.
I didn't know it was called retrieval, but.
And I was like, "Oh, I need to be sprinkling this throughout everything."
And so my biggest change that you would've seen if you'd come in my classroom afterwards was I put a whiteboard on every desk, and so I was getting an answer from every kid.
And we were doing retrieval just whenever.
I'd be like, "Oh, their attention's lagging. Take out your markers." You know?
Like, let's do this.
And it, I feel like it made my classroom more interactive because I w- everybody was answering.
I wasn't just calling on kids with their hands up.
And so yeah.
And then I also, I think I took the pressure off myself to do too much.
I mean, I was a science teacher.
I had labs and projects.
But to do, a- again, to not feel guilty about the fact that I wasn't trying to shoehorn discovery in every minute of the
Gene Tavernetti: day.
W- okay.
But as a science teacher, that's one of the things that you say in your book.
It's not, you know, you have to do those things.
Yeah.
You know?
You, you- And it's important … you yeah.
Beth Hawks: I do think it's important that they're doing hands-on things.
But that's different from discovery.
So I would teach it, and then we would go into the lab and be like, "Now you're gonna observe this."
But especially with middle schoolers, I had to tell them what to observe.
They don't know what is important to look at.
So they're not going to discover it if they don't know what they're supposed to be noticing and what they're supposed to be seeing.
And just saying, "What did you notice?" Well, I had a kid one time tell me like, "It's smoking."
And I'm like, "It's not smoking." Those are carbon- like those are carbon dioxide bubbles.
That's not smoke.
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
But- So, okay, so, so you come back and this, you know, what your administrator told you, of course, they al- it's always come back and share- Yeah … you know, what you learned.
You had been teaching for, I think you said 17 years at the time.
Something like that.
So I'm, so I'm- Yeah … guessing you had some status at at the school.
But that doesn't make any difference when you come back and you're in front of your staff talking about talking about what you learned.
Was there any positive or negative reaction?
I know this is a long time ago, but,
Beth Hawks: Oh, yeah, it was almost entirely positive.
So I, for one thing, I'm in a school where we do have really good relationships with each other.
And and I had been there a long time.
So I was sort of people's go-to with a lot of questions anyway, and as a science teacher, that makes a difference, too.
People asked me if it was gonna snow, and I was like, "I really don't know better than-
a meteorologist.
Maybe listen to them." But so I had some credibility.
But also I think it confirmed some of what they were thinking as well, you know?
Because again, you try stuff and you're trying to make things work that aren't working and you intuitively want to do certain things that PD people are telling you not to.
But I sort of became in-house PD there.
Like, I presented, the following year I did a six-part series and we were able to get them CEU credit for it because I was like, I came back from that conference going, "I think I learned enough at this one that we could do like a…" And that's when I learned I actually really like talking to teachers.
I had always said like, I'm called to teach teenagers.
I am not called to talk to adults." And turned out I really enjoyed it once I was talking about something that was worth talking about.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, the, it's interesting that you described that about you know, you went to a couple conferences and you had, I'm sure you had done some reading on your own, but you decided that you were ready to share with folks.
I, that's a question that I think comes up all the time.
How much does a teacher need to know about the science of learning, the research behind it?
Because, like you said, you came back and said, "Oh, I've been doing this. Now I just tweak this." So how much do you think a, a teacher really needs to know before they can start making some meaningful changes in their practice?
Beth Hawks: It depends on how big a change you wanna make, right?
Like, I think anybody could come in and say, "Oh yeah, I can add retrieval practice throughout my lesson instead of saving it for the end." I think anybody can probably say, "Oh yeah, I need to do more formative assessment." You know, like that kind of stuff.
If you're wanting to completely, you know, upend how you teach, then you're probably gonna need to find a model- Like the fast model.
That works for you.
But yeah, if it is really, like, just I think I'm doing okay and I just want to improve, then I think, like, yeah, pick a thing to start with and do that.
Trying to do everything at once does not work because it's too much of a working memory challenge, right?
Like, you're, especially if you've been doing it for a while.
And so I think just saying, like, "This year I'm gonna try these two things," right?
Or-
Gene Tavernetti: Right
… " Beth Hawks: This semester I'm gonna implement this one thing and to see if it works, and try it with different classes and see how it goes."
So.
Gene Tavernetti: W- well, you have a story about trying retrieval practice in your book.
I might have been the first chapter.
I don't re- Yes … I don't remember.
And, and- It is the first chapter … about Julia, is that- Yes … is the n- is the the Name in the book?
I'm doing air, I'm doing scare quotes.
We don't know if that's a real name.
Yes
Beth Hawks: I only
Gene Tavernetti: use for- Tell us about that … to
Beth Hawks: do that.
Okay.
But yes, it is real.
Yeah.
I thought about making one up for her, and then it just felt weird.
Yeah, so it was important to me to start with that story because I, when I was sitting down and sort of just laying out the structure of the book, I knew I wanted to start every chapter with a story just 'cause I would enjoy that, so I thought readers might enjoy that too, and it's a little less dry than starting with research.
But I was like, the first story's really important because it's gonna set the tone for the whole book.
And so what I wanted the tone to be is even when we're all doing the very best we can, we're gonna make mistakes, and we're gonna make big mistakes.
But what's important is do we fix them and what do we learn from them and how do we do better in the future?
And so I wanted that story to be first so that I could set that particular tone, you know, and say, you know, we tell our kids that it's important to learn from their mistakes.
It's important for us to learn from ours too.
And then also, if any reader happens to also be a parent, holy cow, her mom just, it was a master class in how to handle a situation graciously.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
Beth, you may not want to disclose the entire story, but I'm gonna ask you to.
Okay.
I'm not gonna ask you to disclose a bunch of them, but but, it, like you said, you thought it was an important one.
Beth Hawks: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: And not only you got kid, you got parents involved, and so you gotta tell us.
It was.
It was a good one.
You gotta share it, Beth.
Beth Hawks: So, yeah, I kind of forgot that you'd read it, and listeners probably wouldn't have yet.
So, so yeah, I was doing, you know, beginning of class retrieval practice.
I used the Popsicle sticks to help distribute things, right?
And my rule was you can't just say, "I don't know," because as soon as you do that, everybody says they don't know and nobody's answering questions anymore.
And so I asked a girl, a- and I tried to keep them relatively simple questions.
The idea was that it was sort of rapid fire.
And she said, "I don't know." And I said, "Well, you know, I'm not gonna accept that.
Just guess.
Just tell me something." And and she'd stopped for a long time and she said, "I j- I just really don't know."
And I can't remember quite how we got out of it, but we did at some point move on.
And I got an email from her mom that night that said, you know, "She doesn't know I'm writing to you, but but I wanted to explain what happened." And this girl like, English was not her native language, but she spoke very good English, so sometimes I forgot that English was not her native language.
And she said, you know, she was trying to translate it in her head, and then she couldn't remember the answer in English.
And she said, and then she got to the point where she couldn't remember any words in English other than, "I don't know." And I felt terrible because, you know, who wants to embarrass a child like that?
But I was so grateful for her mom because one, she spoke to her daughter very kindly about me.
She said, "You know, I know Ms. Hawks is- was doing what she thought was right for you." You know, she didn't throw me under the bus with her child.
But she would've been fully justified in just ripping me a new one, and and she didn't.
She gave me the opportunity to, one, repair things with her daughter, and two to make sure that didn't happen with other people's daughters and sons in the future.
Yeah.
And about, it's funny, about two weeks later I was listening to, do you know Craig Barton's podcast?
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
Beth Hawks: The Teacher.
So Dylan William was on his podcast, and they had a whole conversation about how to not let "I don't know" be the end of the conversation, and I was like, "Man, I just heard it, like, three weeks too late."
Gene Tavernetti: So g- so what did you learn?
What did you learn from there?
Well- You know, how did you handle those?
Did you handle who you called differently?
Did you handle your response differently?
W- how did you- No, no … adjust that?
So
Beth Hawks: I still kind of did it the same way, but when a student said, "I don't know," I might have one time said, "Come on, give me a guess." But after that the suggestions he made were really interesting.
One was like phone a friend, like ask them if they wanna ask somebody else.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Beth Hawks: And say, "Do you agree with them?" Or turn it into a multiple choice question.
You know, if I had given her, like, a couple of answers and said, "Choose from these," you know, or that kind of thing.
And so, like, just basically lightening up the tension of it.
Yeah.
So they still have to interact with the question, but they're not being forced to produce an answer on their own Y-
Gene Tavernetti: you know, it's funny, one of the things that you mentioned was that if you accept "I don't know," then everybody's, you know, I don't know.
I was working with a middle school teacher once, and he was having that problem.
You know, he did, you know, he was doing his retrieval at the beginning of class and he'd ask a student a question.
They'd say, "I don't know." So we talked about that and I said, "Well, how about you do this?" And I, something that I'd seen other teachers do successfully, say, "No problem, I'll get back to you."
Beth Hawks: Yes, that was another suggestion, yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: And the funny part about that was that- The next time I went to observe his class, you could tell he had been doing that because the kids learned how to game that one.
Beth Hawks: They take them back.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Yeah.
He alw- he always went back, but they realized, "Ah, I don't have to answer the first time."
So it, that, like you say, it's messy.
What goes on in classrooms is messy, but there's nothing fatal and nothing final.
I mean, you can always- Right … you can always get to it.
And something interesting that you alluded to, if you didn't exactly say this right now, was something that you know, you talked about learning styles.
Ano- another thing that I heard about that same time which was decades ago was don't tell a student they're wrong.
You know?
Oh, god.
Don't correct them, you know?
Oh, that's an interesting answer, but you don't, y- you're not, you don't have a problem correcting students.
Beth Hawks: I don't.
I mean, I think a lot of it's in how you approach it.
I would either sort of try to make it silly and be like, "Not quite.
Thank you for playing." Or I would sometimes when they're almost right, you know, you can say like, "Well, I can see why you would think that, but let me explain why it's something else." Yeah.
Because, I mean, if we don't correct them, then we're not really teaching them, right?
We're just letting them keep their misconceptions, so.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, and I don't think, a- and I don't think the kids are as fragile in those situations as folks make 'em out to be.
Beth Hawks: Yeah, exactly.
Gene Tavernetti: Y- you know?
You know, I think part of the culture of school they realize they're gonna get put on the spot, and it's- Mm-hmm
it's their turn to get put on the spot.
Beth Hawks: Kids are more comfortable with a lot of things than adults are, I think.
Yeah.
Yes.
Like, we get locked into certain, like, "Well, it must be this way," and I think kids are a lot more open to… Especially in middle and high school, they've got six or seven different teachers, so they're used to kind of adapting, I think, to, to the different ways that we do things.
Gene Tavernetti: A- absolutely.
Now we didn't talk about this before, but I'm curious about you know, you mentioned you came back, you tried something.
You talked to teachers to get them to try something.
Did you ever receive any feedback, or other teachers when they tried things, to receive feedback?
Because I- let me tell you, and I'm asking you this really because of a new context.
A new thing that you do is that you're a fitness instructor.
Beth Hawks: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: And one of the things we know about fitness, regardless of what we're doing, is how you do it makes a difference.
Form makes a difference.
So, and- and that's part of your job as the instructor is giving feedback.
So when you talked to teachers about what you had learned, were they able to get any feedback about the things that they tried?
Beth Hawks: So the, probably the biggest one, I- lots of little things.
You know, people who had tried stuff and said, "This worked, but it kind of didn't. Maybe if I tweak it this way." We would talk through some of those ideas.
But the one that I- I found the most fun was a seventh grade English teacher, who also had been my student.
But she was, we were, I was in a faculty meeting, and a friend of mine and I had presented, I think we talked about working memory, and we were talking about using whiteboards and retrieval as a way of offloading that too, like, you know, taking a pause in the middle and just doing a little, well, active recovery.
And and about three weeks later she came in and she said, "Oh, my goodness, this is a game changer." And because she taught English, her take on it was a little bit different from mine because I was, you know, reinforcing answers.
She was doing more like, "What do you think's gonna happen next?" Or, "Why do you think, you know, this character did this?"
Oh, okay.
And she said, "I am finally hearing from my introverts." Which I thought was such a great take because they didn't mind writing it on the whiteboard and holding it up, but they did not wanna talk out loud.
And she said, "They have really insightful things to say that I haven't been getting until now."
So I thought that was a, a great piece of feedback from her.
Gene Tavernetti: Oh, you know what?
That is one of the books that really changed the way that I looked at the interactions of students and what we asked students to do was Susan Cain's book Quiet.
Quiet.
Yes.
You know.
Oh and if you, if teachers, if you haven't read it, I think it's, I think it's so important, especially if you're a teacher who puts kids in groups every day.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it is so tough.
It is so tough on some kids, and so it's so easy to to misattribute silence- And I- … to resistance, to all sorts of things
… Beth Hawks: I think we've been treating them like they're wrong.
You know?
Like, that, that's a problem to be fixed.
We need to turn them into extroverts.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Beth Hawks: And they're not wrong.
They are just different.
Like, they're just expressing their thoughts differently.
So yeah, finding a way that they could contribute and still be comfortable.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Beth Hawks: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: So okay.
So you started out… I'm gonna go back to 17 years ago.
You went to conferences, you came back, and you shared with folks, and wanted to get them to try one or two things.
But in your book, you've got 10 chapters, and each of those chapters is a topic in the science of learning.
Beth Hawks: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: Is that something that before you left the classroom after your experience, you know, and learning all this, that you were able to do all the time consistently?
Beth Hawks: Consistently, no.
But those were the 10 topics that I felt like had made the biggest impact in my classroom.
And of course, some of them are related to each other, right?
Like formative assessment usually is also retrieval practice.
Yeah.
And so there's a lot of overlap to them as well.
Gene Tavernetti: I'm sorry, Beth, before we continue, do you happen to have those in front of you that you could read them?
Because I do.
I could read them, so we could list all of them.
You want me to do that?
Ooh, that's,
Beth Hawks: I don't have them in front of me, but if you want to.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay, I do.
I do.
So let's, let- let's I'm just, I'm gonna read the 10- Okay … and these are your chapters.
You're the- Yeah … read your chapters.
One working memory.
Yeah.
Two- Yeah … clarity for learning.
Three, prior knowledge and schema.
Four, focus and diffuse models.
Five, rich encoding.
Six, the dangers of discovery learning, which we're gonna talk about in a second.
The dangers of discovery learning, engagement is a means, not an end.
Chapter seven, modeling and scaffolding.
Chapter eight, when to memorize.
Chapter nine, retrieval.
And 10, formative assessment.
Beth Hawks: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: So as you think about those, and you just, and I, before I rudely interrupted you.
That's okay.
So you talked about how they're not completely disparate.
Beth Hawks: Right.
So because all, what you're me- what you're doing retrieval on are the things you're memorizing.
A lot of that is formative assessment, and some of it is to- Reduce the working memory load challenge.
So I feel like there is, there's a ton of overlap between all of them.
And I- that- I think learning about working memory was probably one of my bigger aha moments.
Like, oh, in the trying to cover everything and fit thing in, right?
Like, the pressure of curriculum.
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
Beth Hawks: I'm making sure they learn nothing, right?
Like, because I'm overloading it in thinking that I'm just, like, covering more, and actually trying to back up a little bit, notice those times when they're flipping without any evident direction through their notebook and you know, staring into the middle distance, just going, "Oh, this might be a time when we need to pause and-
offload for a minute." And it's not gonna eat up that much class time, you know?
I- But you know, it's, yeah … I say stand up, look up, look down, look left, look right, sit back down.
You know, it doesn't have to take that much time.
Y-
Gene Tavernetti: you know, it's funny that you mention cognitive load because I've found in the t- 20 plus years that I've been, you know, talking to teachers about explicit instruction and coaching, that's one of the first things.
That's one of the first pushbacks.
We have so much to cover.
Beth Hawks: Mm-hmm.
We have s- And
Gene Tavernetti: it's a real concern.
It's leg- it's legitimate.
It- On the other hand, what you just said, you know, it's it's one of those things that it is an aha moment.
It's like, yeah I … You know, it's the old joke, I taught it but nobody learned
Beth Hawks: it.
Nobody learned it, yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: You know?
So, so was that a big moment for you and for other teachers as you talk to them?
And the presentations that you do, is that one of the emphasis that you have?
Beth Hawks: Yeah, I do think that it's brought up a lot.
Like, well then how do we cover everything?
And I'm like, "Well, you probably can't."
So, like, I had it down pretty well in physical science and physics.
In chemistry, I had to make this decision every year, we're not gonna cover everything, what chapter do I leave out?
Or, you know, like, how do we get d- what's less essential than others, right?
'Cause there are some things they've got to learn about my curriculum, and then there are some things we could let go.
And I also think too, sometimes explicit teaching is the most efficient.
So you might actually save some time if you're not trying to have them figure things out on their own for every lesson that you're doing things with.
And, Yeah.
Like just trying to figure out where you can work that in while also pausing now and then for working on their load.
Well, a-
Gene Tavernetti: And you know, I think thank you for mentioning Teach Fast earlier, and we're gonna bring it up again because one of the things that you just mentioned is one of the things that the teachers realize, is that there is a lot of slack in their lessons that they don't know about.
Beth Hawks: Mm-hmm.
Gene Tavernetti: And once you g- you know, like, they'll say look at our pacing guide.
We can't cover it." And I'm saying, "Right now it's just a theoretical document, but I think you're gonna find that you're gonna be getting through more content if we take a look at these things from the science of learning."
Mm-hmm.
And they're gonna remember more.
You're gonna be able to move on.
You're gonna…" You know, et ce- et cetera, et cetera.
So I, so it's like you say, all of these things are related, and none of them are disparate.
So you talk to when you do your presentations, you know, you're talking at ResearchEd throughout the country what, what do, what's your favorite topic to talk about with teachers?
Beth Hawks: in the last two years I've done basically two topics.
In the next three months I'm gonna be doing four.
So I don't know if I have an answer to that yet.
So far I've mostly done formative assessment, because when I was trying to come up with something that I could present at conferences, I was like, "Well, what's not out there?"
Right?
I wasn't gonna go to a conference with Andrew Watson and talk about working memory.
He's already got that covered.
And so I felt like formative assessment was one I hadn't seen a ton.
And then last year I added to it helping students study, because that became, after I found cognitive science, that became my favorite thing to do, was to talk to students about what they were doing.
Like, so if a student, like, failed a test or didn't do as well as they would've liked, I'd be like, "Come on in. Let's talk." Yeah.
And they would tell me what they were doing, and I would s- be like, "Okay, here's why that's not working.
Now let's talk about how you can tweak it, and, you know, okay, you make flashcards, that's awesome.
Now how are you using them?" And so I developed a talk on that last year, and I, that I've really enjoyed presenting on, because that's one where I think you can have a big impact too 'cause that's not just gonna help them in your class.
That's gonna help- Right … them all.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Beth Hawks: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: So j- so to kind of piggyback on that, do you, did you teach your students about science of learning?
Beth Hawks: I did.
Now not as much as, as I was learning.
I had to hold myself back from telling them everything.
But I actually found it helped with their motivation, like if they understood how their brain worked.
I think it was the goal with learning styles, right?
Like, even though they were wrong, I think it was well-intended that they thought- Yeah
well, if you know how your brain works it'll make you more motivated.
And actually knowing it and saying, "Okay, now here's what's gonna, here might be what will help," because it works with your brain instead of against it.
They c- they would have fun with it.
They'd come in and be like, "Let me show you my flashcards.
Let me show you what I did." So, yeah, we did.
We talked a lot about it.
I would do, like about a week before our first test, I would do a lesson on studying with them, like a full class lesson.
And th- but it was really the individual conversations that had the impact because then they were coming in 'cause they knew they needed it, you know?
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Well, I really think that teachers are gonna get a lot out of this, and you've presented it in a way that they're gonna be able to talk about it in the staff room, is what, you know- … one of the things that, that, that you- Mm-hmm … that you talked about, because they can talk about what they do.
Mm-hmm.
Now y- now in, in your final chapter you you included something that I hear, and I don't understand when I hear it.
Beth Hawks: Okay.
Gene Tavernetti: And that is, W- you know, so there's this evidence, there's this evidence about how we learn, but nobody can tell you how to teach
And I- I
Beth Hawks: said it?
Gene Tavernetti: You didn't say it, but- Oh, okay.
I think I think you, you quoted Tom Sherrington.
Beth Hawks: Okay.
Gene Tavernetti: You quoted Tom Sherrington.
I've heard other people say it.
I heard Jor- oh, what's the fella?
Horvath.
What's the guy who just wrote the Digital Delusions book?
Jared.
Jared Horvath says, you know, he says, "I always tell teachers, you know, nobody can tell you how to teach."
And I'm thinking I just got a lot of good advice from Beth here."
Beth Hawks: I think maybe where I would be going with that is I don't wanna tell you exactly what to do.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
Beth Hawks: Because, like, good advice is one thing, but you have to figure out how to make that work for you and your students and your content.
So, that might be a better way to put it, is that I w- I wanna give you more way to think about it to build your own professional judgment so that when you're making decisions, teachers make thousands of decisions a day on the fly.
Yeah.
Like, what is, what are some concepts you should have in your head that you're basing those decisions on?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, I think if we have a science of learning that doesn't give us some direction about how to teach, it's not worth anything.
Beth Hawks: Right.
Right, right.
Gene Tavernetti: You know?
It's just nice- Yeah … we can walk around and, you know, at a party and- … and have a drink in our hand.
Oh, gosh.
Beth, it has been it has been wonderful, and I hope people will buy your book.
When's it gonna be available?
Beth Hawks: It comes out August 6th, so you can pre-order it now.
It's on the- Okay … Bloomsbury website and on Amazon.
Gene Tavernetti: Awesome.
Okay.
Beth Hawks: So yeah.
But it two weeks from today.
Well, it'll be a week once this airs.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, well, it'll- Okay … it, but it's available now.
So okay, Beth- Yeah … do you have any questions for me?
Beth Hawks: So I am interested in your journey here too.
Like, when did you discover the science of learning, and how did that change your practice?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, As I told you before we started I had a couple experiences with football coaches who were just outstanding teachers.
You know, they would break things down, what folks would say in science, atomization.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
But I would just say it was step by step, and I thought, "Man, this is … I could teach anybody anything if I knew how to do it." Yeah.
If I know how to do it, now I can teach them.
But I didn't know how to translate that into, … Like, I was social studies, so- typical social studies coach, right?
So I had no idea.
I was a good teacher as a coach.
That was my strength.
But I, classroom, I had no idea how to do that.
And so, when I when I went to work as a consultant and I had a chance to see teacher after teacher we would train in explicit instruction and then coach It all came together for me.
And then when I saw something work, that there's gotta be an explanation for this.
Yeah.
There's gotta be an explanation for this.
And so the actual science of learning, I would say I did more like 18 or 19 years just studying teachers and classroom instruction, and getting people to do- getting good teachers to, to tweak and to do this.
And then what I learned when I got into the science of learning cult it you know, everything was explained.
You know, you know, ev- everything was explained, "Oh, this is why this works. This is why this works. This is why this works." Mm-hmm.
And if something doesn't work, I can also realize this is why it doesn't work.
And so that … my journey was kind of backdoor.
Beth Hawks: Mm-hmm.
Gene Tavernetti: And and yeah.
And that's where … and like Teach Fast.
So I would say Teach Fast is not a … which is being reissued and should be out, should be available in the next week or so.
But but that's what it is.
It's almost like an ethnography.
It's like I've just been observed.
Mm-hmm.
"Let's try this," and that's how I came to it.
Beth Hawks: That, that is one of the things I found, was like a lot of stuff we either did intuitively or did, found worked by trial and error.
When I learned about the science of learning, I was like, "Oh, that's backing up the trial and error."
Like-
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Beth Hawks: Yes … it just enabled me to do it more intentionally.
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
Yes.
Beth Hawks: Planned.
Yes.
Instead of wandering my way into it.
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
Well, and was, w- also I would have loved to have a chance to work with you because the most exciting times when I was coaching was with teachers who really had it almo- they were expert when I walked in.
And so I got to see what they were doing and to have conversations with them, and when they tried something, it wasn't, you know, like I went to a conference and I have no idea, I'm gonna try it cold.
They realize, "No, I just need to tweak this just a touch." Yeah.
And to see how much it happened.
You know, I'll never forget as working with high school coaches, and the coaches were all department chairs in the school and so they were adding on a coaching element to them.
And I'll never forget working with the science teacher.
We were going through coaching cycles.
It was a physics teacher, so, I was gonna observe the AP Physics class, which I ditched all of science once I realized I wanted to be a, you know, a coach.
Like, I don't need to … Any- anyway, so, asked her what she was teaching, and I don't remember.
There were two … She goes, "I'm gonna teach … I got two things I want to teach tomorrow. One of them is the subject that Einstein got his Nobel Prize on, and the other one is…" And she told me something else, and I thought, "Wait a second. That seems like a lot." You know?
So anyway she agreed to, okay, she was just gonna teach this one thing.
And we went through the you know, planning a lesson together using, you know, using explicit instruction framework.
She went in and she said, "I'm gonna tell you though, I'm gonna tell you right now, my kids aren't used to this.
They're not gonna like it, because what I normally do, I go in, talk for a couple minutes, give them something to work on, and they're working with their partners.
They're not gonna like this, and I'm gonna ask them after." So I go in and I watch this lesson, and I mean, God, I wish I had a video. To this day, it's one of the best lessons that I've ever seen. I mean, you know, just in every place where we talked about, "Well, after this, maybe we should check for understanding.
You want to go … You know, you don't want to go too far before you have to…" I mean, she was just awesome.
And the next day, we go in to do the debrief, and I said, what'd your kids think?" And she said, "Oh, they liked the lesson." She said, "They said I didn't need to give them two examples.
The first one was a good example.
I didn't need to give them two." So they didn't even notice and I guess that's the point is that you know, like, like you said, we expect the kids to be these fragile … No.
You know, they understand when something good is happening, too.
I mean, they were good with it.
So anyway, I don't know how I got there, but, anything else we should be talking about, Beth?
Beth Hawks: I think we're good.
I think we've covered a
Gene Tavernetti: lot.
All right.
Well, it was great.
You know, it was a little bit of work getting together here today, but but I appreciate appreciate the opportunity to have a chance to talk to you about your new book, and the title is
… Beth Hawks: Show Your Work: Teaching Smarter with the Science of Learning.
Gene Tavernetti: Awesome, Beth.
We'll talk to you soon.
Beth Hawks: Thank you.
Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
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You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.
Tesscg.
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.