WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.350 --> 00:00:12.550 Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast. 00:00:13.380 --> 00:00:17.930 Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:22.620 necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years. 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:26.790 And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. 00:00:27.730 --> 00:00:30.439 If you enjoy the positive and educational content. 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:35.530 We provide, please let others know by sharing, commenting, and 00:00:35.530 --> 00:00:39.630 following so that you can join in on everything that Silvercore stands for. 00:00:40.700 --> 00:00:43.340 If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:47.929 Silvercore club and community, visit our website at silvercore. 00:00:47.940 --> 00:00:48.370 ca. 00:00:48.370 --> 00:00:53.060 You want to lose weight? 00:00:53.365 --> 00:00:58.125 Overcome anxiety, have a physical, mental, or emotional challenge you want to crush. 00:00:58.645 --> 00:01:01.815 I'm joined today by a special warfare combat crewman. 00:01:02.440 --> 00:01:05.980 Who has dedicated himself to helping countless thousands understand 00:01:05.980 --> 00:01:07.630 and achieve peak performance. 00:01:07.910 --> 00:01:11.070 He's a coauthor of building the elite, the complete guide to 00:01:11.080 --> 00:01:13.070 building resilient special operators. 00:01:13.479 --> 00:01:16.420 Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Craig Weller. 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:18.490 Thanks, 00:01:18.490 --> 00:01:18.800 Craig Weller: Travis. 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:19.419 Thanks for having me. 00:01:19.770 --> 00:01:20.210 Travis Bader: Totally. 00:01:20.210 --> 00:01:22.670 Well, I've, I've been looking forward to this one for a while. 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.680 You know, when we were chatting back and forth, he said, you know, I'm, 00:01:26.350 --> 00:01:30.830 I do a lot of work with the military and, and helping people achieve their 00:01:30.850 --> 00:01:32.520 goals, getting through selection. 00:01:33.050 --> 00:01:36.770 And, you know, a lot of these programs, they'll have a hundred, 200 people 00:01:36.770 --> 00:01:39.920 come on through and they're all vying to be selected and they'll have 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:44.290 an attrition rate of like 60 to 90 percent of these people being cut. 00:01:45.010 --> 00:01:48.460 Yet the people that go through your program that you've helped. 00:01:48.790 --> 00:01:54.510 Consult who read your book, which is essentially the Bible to being 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:58.620 physically, mentally, emotionally fit. 00:01:58.819 --> 00:02:03.430 Um, they've got a 90 percent success rate, over 90 percent success 00:02:03.430 --> 00:02:05.589 rate, which is just mind boggling. 00:02:05.899 --> 00:02:09.430 And the one thing that you threw and he says, well, you know, your audience, the 00:02:09.430 --> 00:02:13.880 outdoors people and you know, hunters, I can help them with their buck fever too. 00:02:13.910 --> 00:02:16.019 So I thought, well, that'll be an interesting one to explore. 00:02:17.304 --> 00:02:20.834 Um, yeah, so I figured we'll talk about a few different things. 00:02:20.864 --> 00:02:22.095 Uh, I'll hold up the book here. 00:02:22.095 --> 00:02:25.264 If anyone's watching it, as opposed to listening to it, here's a book. 00:02:25.304 --> 00:02:26.195 It's available. 00:02:26.195 --> 00:02:27.435 You can get them on Amazon. 00:02:27.445 --> 00:02:28.905 They've got a Kindle edition. 00:02:28.914 --> 00:02:32.605 They've got a, they've got a, uh, soft cover, which I've got here. 00:02:32.625 --> 00:02:35.264 Apparently, apparently you've got a hard cover, Craig. 00:02:36.670 --> 00:02:38.950 Craig Weller: Yeah, it's out of stock right now. 00:02:38.980 --> 00:02:41.260 The last time we did a print run, they just couldn't make 00:02:41.260 --> 00:02:42.739 hardcovers for whatever reason. 00:02:42.739 --> 00:02:46.329 So they're all soft cover right now, but the goal is to keep 00:02:46.329 --> 00:02:47.640 those big ones in hardcover. 00:02:48.239 --> 00:02:48.640 Travis Bader: Nice. 00:02:48.659 --> 00:02:49.899 Well, I'm looking at it right now. 00:02:50.059 --> 00:02:52.059 Apparently it's such a hot commodity. 00:02:52.785 --> 00:02:55.905 The hardcover version, Kindle edition, 3568. 00:02:55.945 --> 00:02:56.685 This is on the canadianamazon. 00:02:57.894 --> 00:02:59.094 ca, paperback 182. 00:02:59.095 --> 00:03:00.144 16. 00:03:00.155 --> 00:03:01.684 Have you seen what the hardcover is going for? 00:03:02.565 --> 00:03:04.644 Craig Weller: Isn't there one on Amazon for like a thousand dollars? 00:03:04.715 --> 00:03:09.074 Travis Bader: Uh, no, 5, 710 dollars and 99 cents right 00:03:09.075 --> 00:03:10.104 now for the hardcover version. 00:03:10.404 --> 00:03:10.444 That's 00:03:10.444 --> 00:03:10.974 Craig Weller: weird. 00:03:11.555 --> 00:03:12.095 Yeah. 00:03:12.095 --> 00:03:13.155 I've seen a few of those. 00:03:13.155 --> 00:03:14.595 I, uh, yeah. 00:03:14.595 --> 00:03:16.645 You better, you better jump on those. 00:03:17.635 --> 00:03:19.725 The next time we do a print run, we're hopefully going to 00:03:19.725 --> 00:03:20.265 be able to get more hardcovers. 00:03:21.085 --> 00:03:21.375 Yeah. 00:03:22.484 --> 00:03:26.065 Travis Bader: Well, clearly people find it valuable enough that it's a 00:03:26.065 --> 00:03:29.405 commodity that they feel that they can go onto Amazon and they can sell it 00:03:29.405 --> 00:03:33.174 for over 5, 000, almost 6, 000 for it. 00:03:33.245 --> 00:03:37.084 And when I say it's like a Bible of, of being mentally, 00:03:37.084 --> 00:03:38.345 physically, emotionally fit. 00:03:38.845 --> 00:03:39.785 It's a roadmap. 00:03:40.174 --> 00:03:41.715 Um, but let's back up. 00:03:41.765 --> 00:03:42.484 Let's talk about you. 00:03:42.505 --> 00:03:43.364 Enough of me talking. 00:03:45.734 --> 00:03:46.845 How did you get into this? 00:03:46.885 --> 00:03:51.225 Tell me a little bit about your background and, uh, uh, why you decided 00:03:51.225 --> 00:03:54.615 to dedicate so much of your life to helping others achieve these goals. 00:03:57.105 --> 00:04:00.005 Craig Weller: So I was in the special operations community. 00:04:00.024 --> 00:04:05.549 And if you looked at my background, I Like while I was going through the 00:04:05.549 --> 00:04:07.359 training pipeline, I shouldn't have been. 00:04:07.940 --> 00:04:11.469 Um, I grew up in a tiny town in South Dakota, didn't have access 00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:14.859 to a swimming pool, didn't know how to swim when I joined the Navy 00:04:14.910 --> 00:04:19.279 and volunteered for selection into a special ops unit and decided I 00:04:19.280 --> 00:04:20.719 just figure it out along the way. 00:04:20.910 --> 00:04:25.170 So I learned how to swim while I was in the selection pipeline. 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:31.000 Um, and statistically that I shouldn't have made it like, like the odds 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.239 of me being successful there were. 00:04:32.450 --> 00:04:33.140 Tiny. 00:04:33.630 --> 00:04:37.540 Um, and it took me a total of two and a half years to make it through a pipeline 00:04:37.540 --> 00:04:40.650 that normally takes like six to nine months for most people, probably if 00:04:40.650 --> 00:04:46.259 you factor in bootcamp and all that, um, maybe a year, uh, I was about two 00:04:46.259 --> 00:04:50.080 weeks from graduating my first selection course and I failed a time swim. 00:04:50.354 --> 00:04:51.185 Got rolled out. 00:04:51.195 --> 00:04:54.555 So I was a SWCC, a boat guy, um, special warfare combatant crewman. 00:04:54.555 --> 00:04:55.734 That's what I was in selection for. 00:04:56.265 --> 00:04:59.224 They rolled me out of the SWCC program, being my swim buddy to a 00:04:59.224 --> 00:05:01.275 BUDS program, which is SEAL training. 00:05:01.384 --> 00:05:04.655 Um, as an experiment, we were the first two that they had done this with, but 00:05:04.695 --> 00:05:08.454 they saw that we were far enough through training that we had the mental raw 00:05:08.454 --> 00:05:10.185 material, we weren't going to quit. 00:05:10.594 --> 00:05:11.855 We just didn't know how to swim. 00:05:12.355 --> 00:05:16.840 Um, and I was at that point a year and a half in, and the only, you know, The 00:05:17.239 --> 00:05:21.479 coaching I had besides from, besides, aside from the minimal amount that I had 00:05:21.590 --> 00:05:27.650 to pass the screen test by seven seconds on my last try was just try harder. 00:05:27.949 --> 00:05:31.099 Everyone, all the instructors who saw me struggling in the water just 00:05:31.099 --> 00:05:34.299 told me to put out more, to get, to get fitter and, and try harder. 00:05:35.020 --> 00:05:39.550 And once I rolled into the BUDS program, they had an actual coach, 00:05:39.550 --> 00:05:42.900 like a performance coach who knew how to teach people how to swim. 00:05:43.469 --> 00:05:44.599 And it changed my life. 00:05:44.820 --> 00:05:49.080 Like the guy who watched me swim, me and my swim buddy, we did, I think it was a 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:51.069 thousand meter swim test the first day. 00:05:51.760 --> 00:05:53.819 Uh, we simulated the swim that we'd failed. 00:05:53.819 --> 00:05:57.179 So we swam in boots and camis for a thousand meters and I got out of the 00:05:57.179 --> 00:06:01.659 water and he told me that it was my, or my parents fault for raising me 00:06:01.660 --> 00:06:06.130 in South Dakota instead of somewhere with water and that he could fix it. 00:06:06.210 --> 00:06:12.170 And he gave me probably 10 specific, measurable, quantifiable things that 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:16.349 I could do better And then he gave me immediate feedback on that while 00:06:16.349 --> 00:06:19.570 I was swimming two hours a day, two miles a day, roughly in that pool. 00:06:19.960 --> 00:06:24.699 So, you know, roll my torso like this, put my head in this position, bend my arm like 00:06:24.700 --> 00:06:26.890 this, do all of these specific things. 00:06:26.909 --> 00:06:29.679 Instead of trying harder, he gave me ways to do it better. 00:06:30.910 --> 00:06:35.570 And within two months, I had failed that the swim that I failed when I got 00:06:35.570 --> 00:06:39.430 rolled out of my first selection course, I failed by a minute and two seconds. 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.789 And within two months of coaching with this guy, I passed 00:06:42.789 --> 00:06:44.490 that swim by over 10 minutes. 00:06:44.960 --> 00:06:47.329 Um, two more months in that program. 00:06:47.329 --> 00:06:52.245 And I was one of the fastest guys And it was just because I had the fitness and 00:06:52.245 --> 00:06:54.705 I needed the skill and I got the skill. 00:06:55.315 --> 00:06:58.754 And so I went from there back into the SWCC program, graduated 00:06:58.754 --> 00:07:00.455 finally after two and a half years. 00:07:00.485 --> 00:07:03.855 And I'd always been interested in human performance kind of stuff. 00:07:03.874 --> 00:07:08.375 And that selection environment specifically, uh, made me really 00:07:08.375 --> 00:07:11.965 interested in what it was that made some people successful and 00:07:11.965 --> 00:07:13.255 pretty much everyone else not. 00:07:13.265 --> 00:07:18.895 Like, I, I literally saw thousands of people show up, try, and usually quit. 00:07:19.365 --> 00:07:24.114 Um, and, and the factors that made them quit weren't just physical 00:07:24.114 --> 00:07:25.494 skill or physical ability. 00:07:25.725 --> 00:07:28.715 Uh, because of physical ability was the factor that I never would have been there. 00:07:29.205 --> 00:07:32.125 And the same held true for a lot of the other people I saw graduate. 00:07:32.125 --> 00:07:37.104 They weren't the best athletes, you know, they weren't the gifted college 00:07:37.115 --> 00:07:39.785 water polo players, the D1 athletes. 00:07:39.874 --> 00:07:41.665 They were like farm kids. 00:07:41.934 --> 00:07:45.625 Um, they were people that just weren't going to give up and they, you know, 00:07:45.665 --> 00:07:48.725 put together the skills well enough to make it through when they had all 00:07:48.725 --> 00:07:50.765 those other like non cognitive traits. 00:07:51.425 --> 00:07:54.275 But I was really interested in how all those things came together. 00:07:54.869 --> 00:07:59.809 And in helping other people do that, um, so that other people who 00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:03.749 have the basic raw materials could be successful in those programs. 00:08:03.749 --> 00:08:10.030 Because it's a massive waste of, of lives, of manpower to have 00:08:10.039 --> 00:08:12.329 people show up who have the pieces. 00:08:12.889 --> 00:08:15.359 They just need small amounts of skill or the right coaching, the right 00:08:15.359 --> 00:08:17.639 process, and they can be successful. 00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:21.400 Um, and the way those programs work a lot of, in a lot of 00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:23.159 cases are basically a lottery. 00:08:23.210 --> 00:08:26.915 Like, You're either lucky and you show up having had the right 00:08:26.915 --> 00:08:29.695 background and the right skill training from some other setting. 00:08:29.695 --> 00:08:33.635 Like you went through a college swim program or whatever, and 00:08:33.645 --> 00:08:37.635 you have it or you don't, but it doesn't have to be that way. 00:08:37.694 --> 00:08:41.694 And it can be systematized and you can know all of the, the 00:08:41.735 --> 00:08:45.385 capacities or skills that you need to make it through these processes. 00:08:45.574 --> 00:08:46.475 And you can develop them. 00:08:46.475 --> 00:08:49.425 Like every single one of them is knowable and learnable 00:08:49.425 --> 00:08:51.335 and developable, developable, 00:08:51.335 --> 00:08:51.994 Travis Bader: developable. 00:08:52.075 --> 00:08:53.355 It's a perfectly common 00:08:53.355 --> 00:08:54.314 Craig Weller: word. 00:08:54.314 --> 00:08:55.274 Yeah. 00:08:55.354 --> 00:08:59.694 And, and so that's what we set out to do is just identify all of the pieces 00:08:59.694 --> 00:09:01.334 and how they work together as a system. 00:09:01.334 --> 00:09:06.085 And, and how can we assess where somebody is and where they need to go. 00:09:06.145 --> 00:09:09.144 And if you give someone a long enough timeline and they're willing to go 00:09:09.144 --> 00:09:10.854 through the work, they can do it. 00:09:10.944 --> 00:09:13.324 Um, you know, like that's another thing that people that 00:09:13.324 --> 00:09:14.834 we train that are successful. 00:09:15.245 --> 00:09:17.564 They're successful because they usually spend multiple years 00:09:17.595 --> 00:09:18.955 preparing for one of these courses. 00:09:18.955 --> 00:09:20.985 They treat it as professionals. 00:09:21.005 --> 00:09:24.595 They treat it as part of their job and the people who are not successful. 00:09:24.855 --> 00:09:26.344 I mean, we get emails from them all the time. 00:09:26.344 --> 00:09:29.424 They're like, I'm going to special forces selection in two months. 00:09:29.474 --> 00:09:30.654 Should I try rucking? 00:09:30.795 --> 00:09:32.895 Like they're. 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:37.940 They're, you know, like they, they treat it as a tryout, not, not a job interview. 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:41.930 They think they're going to show up and it's the, the sword in the stone myth. 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:45.960 Like they're going to show up and just have this special thing, this sparkle in 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.260 their eye that the cadre will recognize. 00:09:48.260 --> 00:09:51.680 And they'll, they'll have something that wasn't really due to their work. 00:09:51.680 --> 00:09:53.210 It's just something that's innate to them. 00:09:53.930 --> 00:09:55.070 And that's not how it works. 00:09:55.170 --> 00:09:55.470 It's. 00:09:55.895 --> 00:09:58.854 Either you've done the work and you've done the work intelligently 00:09:59.064 --> 00:10:02.854 or you haven't, and that's all that's being tested in these, these courses. 00:10:03.415 --> 00:10:10.004 Um, the thing is that that simple thing is also very hard, like just doing that work 00:10:10.004 --> 00:10:12.284 for one to two years before you show up. 00:10:13.050 --> 00:10:13.910 Is really daunting. 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:17.370 It's boring and tedious and it's not fun. 00:10:18.260 --> 00:10:22.519 Um, and that's what ultimately separates the successful people from the not, you 00:10:22.520 --> 00:10:25.550 know, like how much they're willing to pay to get the thing that they want. 00:10:26.260 --> 00:10:28.630 Travis Bader: You know, it's gotta be pretty encouraging 00:10:28.630 --> 00:10:29.809 for somebody to hear that. 00:10:30.040 --> 00:10:32.520 That there is a path that they can take. 00:10:32.520 --> 00:10:36.290 It's not like they're just born with a certain gift and I'll be it. 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:40.069 There's going to be people who have backgrounds and abilities 00:10:40.069 --> 00:10:43.430 that they might be born with, or maybe you have been nurtured into 00:10:43.430 --> 00:10:45.459 them that might give them a leg up. 00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:49.020 And there might be some that their abilities that they're born 00:10:49.020 --> 00:10:51.990 with or how they're nurtured, which may play against them. 00:10:52.395 --> 00:10:57.075 But the fact that there is a roadmap in place that can get nearly everybody 00:10:57.145 --> 00:11:02.935 with the, uh, basic physical aptitude and cognitive abilities to be 00:11:02.945 --> 00:11:05.045 able to, uh, meet a higher level. 00:11:05.055 --> 00:11:06.285 That's gotta be encouraging. 00:11:07.964 --> 00:11:09.635 Craig Weller: Yeah, I think so. 00:11:09.635 --> 00:11:13.815 And, and background does matter, you know, if, if you've spent your entire 00:11:13.815 --> 00:11:17.455 life playing video games on the couch and you decide you want to go be a green 00:11:17.455 --> 00:11:21.785 Bray, you know, In a year like you've got a you've got much more work to do. 00:11:21.955 --> 00:11:28.215 But yeah, it's not it's not magic There's a knowable process that more or less 00:11:28.245 --> 00:11:32.965 anyone can follow if they're willing to do the work And I think while it's 00:11:32.965 --> 00:11:35.944 encouraging I think that's also the part that some people will have a hard time 00:11:35.944 --> 00:11:41.320 with knowing that what they have to trade Is a lot of work and that that part in 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:48.080 itself The simple but hard thing is right in front of them and that that is tougher 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.179 to deal with than I think a lot of people recognize like most people that's why 00:11:52.180 --> 00:11:57.900 you see magic six week training programs and like shortcuts and People trying to 00:11:57.910 --> 00:12:03.445 find dumbo's magic feather, basically it appeals because I think culturally 00:12:03.445 --> 00:12:09.214 there's a strong allure for shortcuts for, for like the special thing that 00:12:09.214 --> 00:12:14.594 will save you from doing the hard thing, but there's really no, easy way to do 00:12:14.594 --> 00:12:18.904 a hard thing well, you, you either pay the man, you do the work or you don't. 00:12:18.984 --> 00:12:21.935 And a lot of the people that are failing are failing because 00:12:22.405 --> 00:12:23.765 they've tried to work around it. 00:12:23.765 --> 00:12:25.474 Like they've tried to go around the hard part. 00:12:25.755 --> 00:12:29.094 Um, you know, like there's nothing that there's no shortcut that keeps you 00:12:29.094 --> 00:12:33.759 from, or that you can substitute for walking with a backpack for three hours. 00:12:33.870 --> 00:12:39.910 Every couple of times a week, you know, like it's, it's simple, but, but it takes 00:12:39.910 --> 00:12:43.250 a lot of commitment and it's something you have to do when nobody's watching, nobody 00:12:43.250 --> 00:12:44.790 cares, and nobody's telling you to do it. 00:12:45.330 --> 00:12:47.440 And that's, that's what separates people. 00:12:47.580 --> 00:12:50.880 Travis Bader: One of my mentors once said to me when I was griping and 00:12:50.880 --> 00:12:55.099 moaning many years ago about how difficult something was and man, 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.379 everyone else seems to have it easier. 00:12:57.479 --> 00:13:01.589 I think it was my early twenties and he looks at me and just laughs. 00:13:01.589 --> 00:13:02.530 This is Travis. 00:13:03.235 --> 00:13:08.555 One thing I've learned is that nothing worthwhile in my life has ever come easy. 00:13:08.935 --> 00:13:10.485 And that's always stuck with me. 00:13:10.775 --> 00:13:14.465 And I know that if I'm doing something difficult, there's something 00:13:14.465 --> 00:13:15.955 worthwhile that comes out of that. 00:13:16.014 --> 00:13:21.974 Even if that's just the mental fortitude or the experience of, uh, 00:13:22.294 --> 00:13:28.195 being able to deal with difficult situation, a difficult situation, um, 00:13:28.285 --> 00:13:29.945 nothing worthwhile ever comes easy. 00:13:30.170 --> 00:13:34.230 And the other thing that I, uh, kind of strikes me that you're talking 00:13:34.830 --> 00:13:41.179 about when I, I started my company and I'm looking at hiring people and I've 00:13:41.179 --> 00:13:44.790 got a bit of a selection process and criteria that people are going through. 00:13:45.630 --> 00:13:46.489 I look at their CV. 00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:53.790 And they've got five pages of, um, door breacher, pistol instructor, 00:13:53.790 --> 00:13:57.089 uh, night ops, like all, all of these great looking things that 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:02.249 would make them well overqualified for a basic firearms instructor of 00:14:02.280 --> 00:14:03.900 what I'd be looking for over here. 00:14:04.229 --> 00:14:06.370 And I'm like, holy crow, this person's got it all. 00:14:06.380 --> 00:14:07.449 This is fantastic. 00:14:08.199 --> 00:14:13.829 And I'd sign them up and I quickly realized that my 00:14:13.829 --> 00:14:15.939 selection criteria was way off. 00:14:16.415 --> 00:14:18.275 Because these skills can be taught. 00:14:18.295 --> 00:14:22.175 And what I should be looking for is the core values that their 00:14:22.175 --> 00:14:23.305 mother should have taught them. 00:14:23.725 --> 00:14:26.124 And I changed how I selected people. 00:14:26.124 --> 00:14:30.314 If they had those core values that were a good fit, and they also had 00:14:30.314 --> 00:14:32.415 all those accolades, fantastic, right? 00:14:32.444 --> 00:14:36.675 But I would start ranking these core values higher in the selection 00:14:36.675 --> 00:14:39.775 process, even if they didn't have those basic teachable skills, 00:14:39.795 --> 00:14:43.285 because I'd just spent a bit more time with them from your standpoint. 00:14:43.775 --> 00:14:48.324 What are some of the core values that you would be looking for in somebody who 00:14:48.334 --> 00:14:53.434 you would say would make a successful candidate for any one of your selection 00:14:53.434 --> 00:14:54.925 programs that you're training them for? 00:14:55.005 --> 00:15:00.084 And what are some of the values that you can start sussing out after a while as 00:15:00.084 --> 00:15:02.214 maybe being detrimental to an individual? 00:15:03.375 --> 00:15:03.855 Craig Weller: Hmm. 00:15:04.255 --> 00:15:07.505 Um, it's going to take me a second to walk through that. 00:15:07.505 --> 00:15:08.694 That's two different things. 00:15:08.705 --> 00:15:09.745 So that's two questions. 00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:13.580 The first thing first, I want to have a story about this. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:19.360 Um, there's an old story From the udts the underwater demolition teams, which are the 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:25.500 precursor to the seals um where they had an initial screening test to allow people 00:15:25.500 --> 00:15:28.560 into the program like that's evolved now into what they call the pst where you 00:15:28.770 --> 00:15:30.360 Run swim and do some pull ups and stuff. 00:15:30.680 --> 00:15:34.340 But at the time they had them do a thing where they Jump into a pool and 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:36.070 carry a bucket of rocks across the pool. 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:39.260 So you carry it a little ways, come up, take a breath, go back 00:15:39.260 --> 00:15:41.200 down, carry it a little ways more and get it across the pool. 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:42.670 I think it's a 50 meter pool. 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:48.689 And they had a guy do this, who just jumped in and trucked the thing all 00:15:48.689 --> 00:15:50.420 the way across the bottom of the pool. 00:15:51.225 --> 00:15:53.455 Set the rocks down where he was supposed to, came up on the side of 00:15:53.455 --> 00:15:56.935 the pool and, and almost unconscious, gasping for breath, like trying 00:15:56.935 --> 00:15:58.365 to figure out where he was again. 00:15:58.445 --> 00:16:03.645 And they yelled at him for not following instructions because he was supposed to, 00:16:03.725 --> 00:16:08.835 like, walk a ways, swim up to the surface, tread water, breathe, go back down, swim. 00:16:09.069 --> 00:16:10.140 You know, swim, carry, swim. 00:16:10.839 --> 00:16:11.730 And like, what are you doing? 00:16:11.730 --> 00:16:12.949 Like you didn't follow instructions. 00:16:12.949 --> 00:16:14.459 And he said, I don't know how to swim. 00:16:15.060 --> 00:16:18.660 But this actually, in retrospect, this story got me, this is what screwed 00:16:18.660 --> 00:16:20.280 me up and got me into the Navy. 00:16:20.329 --> 00:16:23.009 And they're like, Oh, well, we can teach you how to swim. 00:16:23.099 --> 00:16:24.089 Welcome to the program. 00:16:24.829 --> 00:16:25.459 And that's how it worked. 00:16:25.459 --> 00:16:28.799 Like they saw someone who was tough enough to do whatever he had to 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.879 do to accomplish this task, even if he did it somewhat incorrectly. 00:16:32.239 --> 00:16:34.739 And they knew that he was coachable and trainable, but he had those like 00:16:34.899 --> 00:16:37.849 fundamental characteristics of basically. 00:16:38.109 --> 00:16:41.339 Tenacity you're willing to sacrifice his body to keep going. 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:47.920 Um, and that's one of the things that we look for You can there's a 00:16:47.920 --> 00:16:50.520 few different ways to Categorize it. 00:16:50.869 --> 00:16:57.269 One of the most crucial is an internal locus of control meaning that someone 00:16:57.280 --> 00:17:02.775 thinks that they Are steering the ship, like they are in charge of their position 00:17:02.775 --> 00:17:07.145 in the world and that they have the ability to change their circumstances 00:17:07.145 --> 00:17:08.625 and control their course in life. 00:17:08.694 --> 00:17:12.395 Um, someone with an externalized locus of control thinks that 00:17:12.764 --> 00:17:14.194 the world happens to them. 00:17:15.444 --> 00:17:18.485 And you can hear that, like, we do an application for our one on one clients, 00:17:18.525 --> 00:17:21.194 uh, and this is one of the things that we look for, like, the application 00:17:21.194 --> 00:17:26.244 is deliberately onerous, it's, it's a pain, it's very long, the questions are 00:17:26.244 --> 00:17:31.045 annoying, um, and some of what we're looking for isn't even necessarily, like, 00:17:31.075 --> 00:17:33.104 the specific answers to the questions. 00:17:33.284 --> 00:17:38.125 But how they perceive the world when they answer them and also just their 00:17:38.475 --> 00:17:42.825 willingness to go through the amount of work that this application requires. 00:17:42.915 --> 00:17:46.855 Um, and we'll, we'll see it in people's language when they say, 00:17:46.884 --> 00:17:51.844 um, I got a knee injury, which means the injury happened to them. 00:17:51.904 --> 00:17:55.324 You know, it came from somewhere outside of themselves where someone 00:17:55.334 --> 00:18:00.990 says, I hurt my knee or I injured my knee that implies that they were in 00:18:00.990 --> 00:18:04.270 control of that process They could have done something differently. 00:18:04.270 --> 00:18:07.109 They could have understood a variable They could have trained differently 00:18:07.109 --> 00:18:10.260 moved differently done something that was within their control, but they 00:18:10.260 --> 00:18:13.639 didn't and they hurt their knee It means that they're in control and they have 00:18:13.639 --> 00:18:17.200 an internal locus of control where the person who said, you know, it happened 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.630 to me I failed this thing because My knee got injured when it's like 00:18:23.090 --> 00:18:24.390 something that comes from the outside. 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:26.790 We'll see that trend. 00:18:26.820 --> 00:18:30.290 People pretty clearly skew one way or the other towards internal or 00:18:30.290 --> 00:18:32.960 externally and external locus of control. 00:18:33.460 --> 00:18:37.170 And if they're heavily externalized, that means that they're not likely 00:18:37.170 --> 00:18:41.440 to control the things that they can, or they're not likely to work on 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:42.990 the things that they can control. 00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:46.850 Um, and that they're going to feel like a victim of their circumstances. 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.779 And they're less likely to engage in active coping versus 00:18:49.779 --> 00:18:50.735 just, you know, Passive coping. 00:18:51.165 --> 00:18:56.695 So active coping means that you solve or you address problems or 00:18:56.695 --> 00:19:00.245 you solve problems by making them go away by facing the problem directly. 00:19:00.725 --> 00:19:05.484 Passive coping means you make a problem go away by avoiding or ignoring it. 00:19:06.004 --> 00:19:08.774 Um, so somebody kind of turtles up and just hopes it goes 00:19:08.774 --> 00:19:09.804 away and works itself out. 00:19:09.904 --> 00:19:15.615 Um, passive coping is immediately in the moment, less stressful, 00:19:15.705 --> 00:19:17.725 um, because you're avoiding. 00:19:18.149 --> 00:19:19.790 Direct confrontation with the stressor. 00:19:20.020 --> 00:19:24.310 Um, you're avoiding a challenge, but the challenge doesn't go away. 00:19:24.310 --> 00:19:25.600 The problem doesn't go away. 00:19:25.600 --> 00:19:29.349 You just push it off into the future and it usually compounds and becomes worse. 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:35.295 Um, So you can see that in someone's, uh, nervous system and their, in their, 00:19:35.305 --> 00:19:37.245 the nature of their stress responses. 00:19:37.245 --> 00:19:41.895 When someone actively copes with a problem, they'll have to engage 00:19:41.905 --> 00:19:46.344 with a stronger sympathetic response, like a threat response 00:19:46.344 --> 00:19:48.074 or an engaged challenge response. 00:19:48.105 --> 00:19:51.615 And in the moment, they'll have a higher stress response, like 00:19:51.615 --> 00:19:52.885 their heart rate will be higher. 00:19:54.314 --> 00:19:59.215 That just means, you know, That they're more actively engaged, but as soon 00:19:59.215 --> 00:20:02.695 as that stressor has passed or the challenge has passed because they've 00:20:02.715 --> 00:20:08.364 dealt with it, they'll also have a more restful or relaxing baseline. 00:20:08.645 --> 00:20:11.834 So that person who has been actively coping with their challenges 00:20:11.834 --> 00:20:14.644 throughout the day now sleeps better. 00:20:14.704 --> 00:20:17.944 And when it's time to have dinner with their family and shut down and relax, 00:20:18.044 --> 00:20:22.715 they do that effectively, where the person who's been coping through their 00:20:22.715 --> 00:20:25.264 day by avoiding and ignoring things. 00:20:25.470 --> 00:20:29.979 And hoping they work themselves out, um, all of those program, problems 00:20:29.979 --> 00:20:32.149 are still on their shoulders somehow. 00:20:32.149 --> 00:20:35.830 They're still lurking in the background and that person is going to have 00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:38.110 a higher baseline stress response. 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:41.360 So they're a little more sympathetic, a little more stressed at baseline 00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:44.219 when they should be resting, when they should be sleeping. 00:20:44.269 --> 00:20:46.850 They don't dip as much, their heart rate doesn't come down as much when 00:20:46.850 --> 00:20:49.840 they sleep, um, because they're. 00:20:50.300 --> 00:20:54.180 Keeping their problems in their lives, like they're carrying, they're 00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:56.870 like basically filling a giant trailer behind them of their problems 00:20:56.870 --> 00:20:57.980 and carrying it around with them. 00:20:58.770 --> 00:21:03.700 Um, we also look at just fundamental conscientiousness, which is 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:07.250 basically doing the right thing when the right thing is hard. 00:21:08.280 --> 00:21:10.870 Conscientious people tend to be on time. 00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:12.129 They're prepared. 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:15.670 They think through all of the factors that affect the outcome they're going for. 00:21:15.699 --> 00:21:17.930 Um, so they're not the person who's constantly running out of 00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:22.750 gas, um, that always has an excuse for something, you know, uh, and 00:21:22.829 --> 00:21:24.719 they're also a little more prone to. 00:21:25.465 --> 00:21:30.485 Feeling stressed because they think about and actively deal with all of 00:21:30.485 --> 00:21:32.965 the little things in their day Like the guy that you know, that seems 00:21:32.965 --> 00:21:34.154 like he's always a little bit high. 00:21:34.165 --> 00:21:36.984 He's just never worried about anything I it'll be fine. 00:21:36.985 --> 00:21:41.084 You know, he shows up 20 minutes later But he just does like screwing 00:21:41.084 --> 00:21:42.454 up doesn't bother that person. 00:21:42.665 --> 00:21:45.294 They're they're kind of sloppy That's that's someone who's low in 00:21:45.294 --> 00:21:50.045 conscientiousness and that's One of the fundamental, uh, behavioral traits 00:21:50.045 --> 00:21:51.915 in a, it's called a big five profile. 00:21:51.925 --> 00:21:56.245 So we have openness to experience conscientiousness, extroversion, 00:21:56.334 --> 00:21:58.464 agreeableness, and neuroticism. 00:21:58.565 --> 00:22:03.964 And for someone looking to do a special operations role, the two that matter 00:22:03.965 --> 00:22:08.544 primarily are conscientiousness and neuroticism or emotional stability. 00:22:08.765 --> 00:22:14.355 So someone who is highly neurotic is generally kind of emotionally 00:22:14.355 --> 00:22:19.125 unstable and prone to a high level of perceived or imaginary threat. 00:22:19.185 --> 00:22:23.725 Um, they become, they're more, they're a lot more prone to anxiety and they 00:22:23.725 --> 00:22:28.575 get stressed out easily where someone who's really emotionally stable, uh, 00:22:28.615 --> 00:22:30.744 tends to stay calm under pressure. 00:22:30.865 --> 00:22:33.515 They retain control of their frontal cortex. 00:22:33.515 --> 00:22:39.895 They're able to think through challenges, um, and rationally even when things are 00:22:40.135 --> 00:22:45.055 Loud and noisy, uh, where someone who's lower in emotional stability or higher 00:22:45.055 --> 00:22:50.105 in neuroticism, uh, tends to kind of fly off the handle a lot more easily. 00:22:50.435 --> 00:22:55.025 And the other ones, introversion, extroversion, it matters a little 00:22:55.025 --> 00:22:56.804 depending on the specific field. 00:22:56.894 --> 00:23:02.645 Um, so green berets, uh, stereotypically work in teams and they have 00:23:02.645 --> 00:23:04.515 to go work with foreign units. 00:23:04.535 --> 00:23:08.865 And Integrate or embed themselves with all kinds of other people. 00:23:09.245 --> 00:23:13.465 Uh, extroversion is useful there, but if you're going to be say a 00:23:13.465 --> 00:23:17.105 scout sniper and you have to be okay in your own head for a long time 00:23:17.105 --> 00:23:20.255 and good at maintaining vigilance when you're bored, uh, introversion 00:23:20.305 --> 00:23:22.094 is a strength in that setting. 00:23:22.394 --> 00:23:24.825 So that one is variable. 00:23:24.885 --> 00:23:31.365 Um, agreeableness or antagonism is the other side of that is basically your. 00:23:32.040 --> 00:23:37.710 You're, uh, how much you care about making other people mad or how much 00:23:37.710 --> 00:23:39.510 you care about the feelings of others. 00:23:39.590 --> 00:23:44.560 Um, so people in the special operations community tend a little 00:23:44.580 --> 00:23:48.689 toward the low side, but not usually not so much that they're 00:23:48.719 --> 00:23:50.900 terribly problematic, uh, socially. 00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:55.140 If you're highly agreeable, you're like super into people pleasing, 00:23:55.150 --> 00:23:58.070 you're kind of a flag in the wind that gets pushed around by whatever 00:23:58.600 --> 00:24:00.539 social circumstances are around you. 00:24:00.579 --> 00:24:02.070 You don't hold your ground, even. 00:24:02.245 --> 00:24:05.805 When you know that you're right about something, but it's going to 00:24:05.805 --> 00:24:09.255 be painful to hold your ground, like, uh, highly agreeable, people will 00:24:09.265 --> 00:24:12.085 give up their own opinion or their own beliefs in order to go with the 00:24:12.085 --> 00:24:17.945 crowd, go with the flow, um, which, you know, being very socially adaptable. 00:24:18.335 --> 00:24:22.524 At that emotional level can be useful in some settings, but generally not 00:24:22.565 --> 00:24:27.435 in a special operations role and the people you see who were really good at 00:24:27.485 --> 00:24:31.834 being sort of that social chameleon in a special operations role usually are 00:24:31.835 --> 00:24:36.494 doing that cognitively, not emotionally, meaning they don't necessarily have 00:24:36.495 --> 00:24:40.705 high levels of empathy, uh, like, like emotional empathy, but they have very 00:24:40.705 --> 00:24:42.695 high levels of understanding cognitively. 00:24:42.705 --> 00:24:44.925 So they can still read what other people are feeling. 00:24:45.450 --> 00:24:48.139 And do what they need to do with that information, but they're 00:24:48.139 --> 00:24:49.950 not always feeling it themselves. 00:24:49.990 --> 00:24:50.760 They're the gray man. 00:24:50.950 --> 00:24:53.270 So they're, yeah, yeah. 00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:57.059 So, um, what was the other, I think that actually covers them all. 00:24:57.129 --> 00:24:58.740 Travis Bader: Well, that covers a fair bit. 00:24:58.929 --> 00:25:04.279 So it's interesting when you talk about, um, uh, the internal locus of 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:09.570 control, uh, going back to the beginning there and looking at people where 00:25:09.570 --> 00:25:13.459 things happen to them or whether they feel that they've got that control. 00:25:14.170 --> 00:25:16.290 I've always kind of, you know, I've looked at it. 00:25:16.290 --> 00:25:21.430 If somebody is at a certain point in their life and they want to do something else 00:25:21.430 --> 00:25:26.400 and they want to achieve something higher, and they say, I can do this myself. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.330 Well, that's an ambitious individual, right? 00:25:28.340 --> 00:25:31.959 If they feel that it's within their control, if they figure it's up 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.339 to other people to get them there, well, the boss has got to recognize 00:25:35.379 --> 00:25:38.460 me and give me a raise or the government's going to have to ABC. 00:25:38.470 --> 00:25:38.820 See. 00:25:39.390 --> 00:25:41.390 Well, that person's entitled, right. 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:45.110 And I've always tried to make that distinction between the ambitious or 00:25:45.110 --> 00:25:49.420 entitled individual, how they want to both want to achieve something, 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.200 but they have two very different ways they want to go about it. 00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:54.130 Um, and. 00:25:55.135 --> 00:25:58.935 The thing about conflict that you said there, and I've heard it said in 00:25:58.935 --> 00:26:01.455 other places, and there's something that I hold close to my heart. 00:26:01.865 --> 00:26:04.614 Conflict avoided is conflict amplified, right? 00:26:04.614 --> 00:26:09.514 If you avoid conflict, I just know in the future, it's going to be harder for me. 00:26:10.324 --> 00:26:14.694 Whenever I have something of conflict that I see come up, I learned from 00:26:14.694 --> 00:26:19.980 another mentor of mine, who Just be blunt about it and remove that emotion. 00:26:20.010 --> 00:26:24.890 And if it's, let's say a verbal conflict or an emotional conflict, just say, 00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:26.550 Hey, here's what I'm seeing right now. 00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:32.219 And don't try and dance around the issue and attack it head on. 00:26:32.229 --> 00:26:34.089 Cause you want to, here's what I'd like to achieve. 00:26:34.090 --> 00:26:37.320 Here's what I want to get to, but I can see that in both a 00:26:37.320 --> 00:26:38.750 physical standpoint as well. 00:26:38.750 --> 00:26:39.620 It's kind of like that. 00:26:39.650 --> 00:26:46.000 Um, uh, what was that old parable of the, uh, the farmer who, uh, He's looking for 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.620 somebody to help him out on the farm. 00:26:47.620 --> 00:26:50.420 And, and he, uh, this guy comes along and. 00:26:51.035 --> 00:26:52.645 He says, well, do you have any special skills? 00:26:52.655 --> 00:26:54.385 And the guy's like, well, I can sleep through a storm. 00:26:55.105 --> 00:26:56.615 He says, well, what do you, what do you mean? 00:26:56.615 --> 00:26:57.695 Like, that's a special skill. 00:26:57.695 --> 00:26:59.275 He's like, yeah, yeah, I can sleep through a storm. 00:26:59.965 --> 00:27:01.185 All right, I'll give you a shot. 00:27:01.185 --> 00:27:01.395 Right. 00:27:01.395 --> 00:27:02.084 And come on in. 00:27:02.085 --> 00:27:06.305 And anyways, he's got the guy working for him for a couple of months and sure 00:27:06.305 --> 00:27:10.845 enough, a big storm comes in one day and the windows are banging and the 00:27:10.845 --> 00:27:15.065 farmer and his wife gets up and they run out to check on the livestock, but 00:27:15.105 --> 00:27:16.885 all the livestock squared away, right. 00:27:16.885 --> 00:27:18.944 They run to check the batten down all the hatches and. 00:27:19.355 --> 00:27:20.615 Everything's all battened down. 00:27:20.615 --> 00:27:21.955 He's like, Oh, I get it. 00:27:22.535 --> 00:27:23.745 He can sleep through a storm. 00:27:24.025 --> 00:27:28.555 He's conscious conscientious enough right in the here and now. 00:27:29.365 --> 00:27:32.205 To look after all of the little things that should things go 00:27:32.205 --> 00:27:35.274 sideways in the future, he doesn't have to worry about him anymore. 00:27:35.324 --> 00:27:39.105 And that, that's another one that I've always got it. 00:27:39.134 --> 00:27:40.684 Everything's taken care of on the farm. 00:27:41.134 --> 00:27:44.504 The, uh, husband and wife, they go back to bed, everyone has a good 00:27:44.504 --> 00:27:47.174 night's rest because although. 00:27:48.035 --> 00:27:53.555 Like you're saying, higher level of consciousness will have maybe, uh, 00:27:53.565 --> 00:27:57.295 more neuroticism or thinking, if I don't do this, then this could happen. 00:27:57.315 --> 00:27:59.265 I better make sure this is squared away. 00:27:59.705 --> 00:28:03.784 And that could lead to, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that could lead to 00:28:03.785 --> 00:28:10.604 a higher levels of anxiety in the now, but very likely lower levels when it 00:28:10.604 --> 00:28:14.244 comes time to sleep, lower levels in the future, you know, you have it squared. 00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:16.070 Craig Weller: Yeah, yeah. 00:28:16.070 --> 00:28:19.760 So if you have someone who is highly conscientious, but also neurotic, 00:28:19.970 --> 00:28:22.770 then you have that combination of they're aware of all the problems 00:28:22.810 --> 00:28:24.030 and all the things that can go wrong. 00:28:24.510 --> 00:28:29.185 Um, but it, Really, it's really emotionally stressful and they 00:28:29.185 --> 00:28:33.965 probably aren't engaging in active coping and doing like what that guy 00:28:34.075 --> 00:28:38.434 did and preemptively taking care of all of these variables that matter. 00:28:38.514 --> 00:28:42.784 Um, there's a good amount of research on willpower and, and on 00:28:42.785 --> 00:28:44.914 what we perceive as being willpower. 00:28:45.334 --> 00:28:51.335 And one of the key findings in it is that the people that we think of as having 00:28:51.335 --> 00:28:54.215 great willpower because they're really effective in their day to day lives. 00:28:54.875 --> 00:28:56.865 Uh, aren't actually using willpower. 00:28:56.965 --> 00:29:00.975 They're, they've already set up the structure around them, and 00:29:00.975 --> 00:29:04.814 they're using different behavioral systems to take willpower out of 00:29:04.814 --> 00:29:08.925 the equation, so they don't have to force their way through the day. 00:29:08.934 --> 00:29:11.954 Like, they don't have to grit their teeth, slam a pre workout 00:29:11.955 --> 00:29:14.985 every time, and, and like, bare knuckle their way through the day. 00:29:14.985 --> 00:29:17.925 They have all these systems and structures in place, so that doing 00:29:17.925 --> 00:29:19.395 the right thing becomes easier. 00:29:19.574 --> 00:29:22.735 And, and they're just kind of following the path that gravity takes them down 00:29:23.125 --> 00:29:28.975 where the people that we see as having lower willpower often are exercising 00:29:28.975 --> 00:29:32.084 a significant amount of willpower, but they're just fighting uphill the whole 00:29:32.084 --> 00:29:36.195 time because they've created systems and structures around themselves where they're 00:29:36.195 --> 00:29:40.915 naturally pulled out of the, or away from the direction that they want to go. 00:29:41.145 --> 00:29:45.005 Um, so it's, it's like you're describing, like, I, I've, I'm 00:29:45.005 --> 00:29:45.985 going to steal that parable. 00:29:45.985 --> 00:29:47.665 That's a really good example. 00:29:48.085 --> 00:29:50.855 Travis Bader: Well, you and I, so a friend of mine, Sean Taylor, 00:29:50.855 --> 00:29:52.855 XJTF2, you know, Sean as well. 00:29:53.574 --> 00:29:54.424 And what does he say? 00:29:54.895 --> 00:29:55.277 He just. 00:29:55.605 --> 00:29:57.635 Puts his program in and then runs a program. 00:29:58.175 --> 00:29:59.695 And that sounds like what you're saying, right? 00:29:59.825 --> 00:30:00.775 Is this willpower? 00:30:00.805 --> 00:30:02.105 No, it's, it's my program. 00:30:02.105 --> 00:30:04.135 I just, I set it and I run it. 00:30:04.835 --> 00:30:07.225 My decision branching tree is narrowed. 00:30:07.625 --> 00:30:10.995 Does this work with my program or not work with my program? 00:30:10.995 --> 00:30:13.895 If it doesn't work with it, then I don't even have to think about it anymore. 00:30:14.815 --> 00:30:17.495 Is that, is that one way of looking at what you're, you're saying there? 00:30:18.730 --> 00:30:23.050 Craig Weller: Yeah, that, that would be that combination of emotionally 00:30:23.050 --> 00:30:24.560 stable and conscientiousness. 00:30:24.580 --> 00:30:29.920 Um, so like Sean is okay with, and he's so good at this that it doesn't 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:35.410 even enter his thinking most likely, but the things that would detract him 00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:40.000 from doing what needs to be done don't really factor into his daily life. 00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:42.840 Like he's just going to do what needs to happen. 00:30:43.135 --> 00:30:47.585 And, and move forward and, and other people with a different structure, 00:30:47.725 --> 00:30:51.465 uh, who haven't practiced that kind of discipline of just consistently doing 00:30:51.465 --> 00:30:55.875 the right thing, um, are more easily pulled away by whatever distraction 00:30:55.875 --> 00:31:00.225 they have or whatever comfort they need to keep or, you know, um, the 00:31:00.225 --> 00:31:02.195 normal things that kind of bury us all. 00:31:02.245 --> 00:31:04.779 And Sean is a really interesting example of that. 00:31:04.940 --> 00:31:11.380 Basically being a modern Samurai and, and just building his whole life around some 00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:14.190 kind of pursuit of excellence, whether he's running a coffee shop or writing a 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:20.450 textbook or being a special operator, like he's always been very good at focusing on 00:31:20.450 --> 00:31:23.590 those things and, and making them happen. 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.010 Travis Bader: Do you have a background in statement analysis? 00:31:26.050 --> 00:31:29.160 Cause when you're talking before about looking at how people answer 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:33.960 these questions, the knee injury happened to me or vice versa, do 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:34.910 you have a background in that? 00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:34.960 Um, 00:31:35.645 --> 00:31:39.755 Craig Weller: Uh, kind of actually, we've never talked about this. 00:31:39.775 --> 00:31:44.025 Um, I, I've done some work, I have to dance around this a little with 00:31:44.025 --> 00:31:49.845 the intelligence community in, uh, detecting deception, um, and 00:31:49.845 --> 00:31:51.125 a few different methods of that. 00:31:51.165 --> 00:31:55.155 Um, I was part of a, uh, study grant learning methods of, 00:31:55.155 --> 00:31:57.510 uh, I think I can say this. 00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:01.390 Um, vetting beliefs was the name of the study, which was, they 00:32:01.390 --> 00:32:06.030 wanted to know if someone said, I strongly believe this, uh, to know 00:32:06.030 --> 00:32:07.950 if they were being truthful or not. 00:32:08.040 --> 00:32:09.350 And we've done some work. 00:32:09.770 --> 00:32:10.720 Some of it is public. 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.550 Some of it is not on different methods of detecting deception. 00:32:14.610 --> 00:32:20.005 And some actually, the Most effective versions of that often involve just 00:32:20.525 --> 00:32:22.335 basically that statement analysis. 00:32:22.355 --> 00:32:25.725 Um, computers are actually usually better at it than people and 00:32:25.725 --> 00:32:28.295 they're using pretty simple methods. 00:32:28.335 --> 00:32:31.425 Uh, type token ratios are just unique word counts and things 00:32:31.425 --> 00:32:33.435 like that can be very telling. 00:32:33.665 --> 00:32:36.905 Um, in a deceptive versus a truthful person. 00:32:37.215 --> 00:32:41.445 And a big takeaway from all of that work is that we're not good at it. 00:32:41.505 --> 00:32:44.115 And the people who think they're good at it are usually not. 00:32:44.155 --> 00:32:45.125 They're usually terrible. 00:32:45.135 --> 00:32:45.995 Yeah, they're the worst. 00:32:45.995 --> 00:32:48.355 Travis Bader: Usually they spend so much time pre rehearsing that their 00:32:48.355 --> 00:32:50.975 tells become just blatantly obvious. 00:32:52.395 --> 00:32:54.985 Craig Weller: Well, it's, there's that, but also the other side of it, the 00:32:54.985 --> 00:32:58.874 detecting side, um, people who think that they have a lot of experience. 00:32:58.875 --> 00:32:59.585 experience. 00:32:59.585 --> 00:33:02.045 And that makes them good at knowing when someone's lying. 00:33:02.585 --> 00:33:08.225 Um, that gets into the whole field of research on, uh, developing expertise 00:33:08.245 --> 00:33:09.985 on how expertise actually works. 00:33:10.045 --> 00:33:14.435 Um, and expertise requires an accurate, immediate feedback loop. 00:33:14.565 --> 00:33:18.765 Uh, most people don't have that, especially people who are trying to decide 00:33:18.765 --> 00:33:20.165 if someone's lying or not for a living. 00:33:20.165 --> 00:33:23.505 You often don't know if you are correct, but over time people 00:33:23.505 --> 00:33:25.255 develop these pet theories. 00:33:25.355 --> 00:33:27.985 And, and they feel like they have instincts, but they've never 00:33:27.985 --> 00:33:29.465 actually validated their instincts. 00:33:29.685 --> 00:33:33.195 So it's like someone, if you had someone who's been shooting for 10 years, but 00:33:33.195 --> 00:33:36.845 the entire time they've never known for sure if they hit the target or not, they 00:33:36.845 --> 00:33:38.295 just, they've been shooting for 10 years. 00:33:38.635 --> 00:33:39.345 So they think they're good at it. 00:33:39.895 --> 00:33:43.815 There's a very good chance that they could have developed terrible habits and, and 00:33:43.815 --> 00:33:47.175 like weird superstitions and things that don't work for them at all, but they've 00:33:47.175 --> 00:33:48.955 never had an objective feedback loop. 00:33:49.390 --> 00:33:53.010 To validate or course correct them and steer them in the right direction. 00:33:53.130 --> 00:33:56.090 Um, and that's true in a lot of occupations. 00:33:56.100 --> 00:34:00.950 So like the medical field, for instance, um, a lot of people, depending on the 00:34:00.950 --> 00:34:05.430 medical specialty will actually get slowly worse at their jobs over time. 00:34:05.790 --> 00:34:09.380 But the exceptions to that are the people who have immediate clear feedback loops. 00:34:09.390 --> 00:34:14.640 So surgeons, if you're a surgeon and you screw up, you know it immediately. 00:34:14.965 --> 00:34:17.585 Because your patient bleeds out or, you know, like you see a tissue 00:34:17.585 --> 00:34:18.725 damage or something like that. 00:34:19.155 --> 00:34:25.115 Um, but if you're say an x ray tech and you're diagnosing cancer on an x ray and 00:34:25.125 --> 00:34:29.285 you miss that diagnosis, like you didn't see something that was there, you have no 00:34:29.285 --> 00:34:31.075 way of knowing that you're probably not. 00:34:31.090 --> 00:34:32.860 Following up with that person three years later. 00:34:33.410 --> 00:34:37.690 Uh, so, so you don't necessarily have a feedback loop that makes you better 00:34:37.700 --> 00:34:41.360 at your job or, or refines and retains the skill that you have over time. 00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:44.420 Uh, and that's true in a lot. 00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:46.380 I mean, that's true in the physical fitness industry. 00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:48.430 When you see people who are like, I've been training 00:34:48.430 --> 00:34:50.440 people for this for 10 years. 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:50.660 Like. 00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:53.000 It doesn't necessarily mean you're good at it. 00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.900 It just means you've had one year of experience that you've repeated 10 00:34:55.900 --> 00:34:58.170 times and you've developed pet theories. 00:34:58.220 --> 00:34:58.510 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:03.610 I've said that numerous times that people in the past, Oh, I'm a 10 year, 10 years 00:35:03.610 --> 00:35:05.720 of experience in whatever it might be. 00:35:05.720 --> 00:35:09.350 No, you've had, you know, one month of experience, 120 times, right. 00:35:09.350 --> 00:35:11.950 Or one year of experience, 10 times over, right. 00:35:11.950 --> 00:35:14.820 It's, uh, there's a difference between those two things. 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:17.950 Craig Weller: Yeah, you think of everyone driving on the highway next 00:35:17.950 --> 00:35:21.860 to you, like, uh, most of them stopped getting better at driving maybe a 00:35:21.860 --> 00:35:23.460 year after they got their license. 00:35:24.015 --> 00:35:27.935 Like there, there was initially a learning curve, but then we all do this thing. 00:35:27.935 --> 00:35:31.775 It's called the hypothesis of par hypothesis of tolerance, where we decide 00:35:31.775 --> 00:35:35.915 that it's good enough and we go from conscious development of a skill into 00:35:35.925 --> 00:35:37.665 automated execution of that skill. 00:35:37.665 --> 00:35:39.835 And at that point we no longer improve it. 00:35:40.235 --> 00:35:42.755 And the point at which we do that is very arbitrary. 00:35:42.805 --> 00:35:45.385 Like, so there are people who are really, really good drivers. 00:35:45.385 --> 00:35:49.015 You know, like you've seen drift car, race car drivers, people like that. 00:35:49.240 --> 00:35:52.210 And then most people who have been driving a car for 30 years, haven't 00:35:52.210 --> 00:35:54.280 gotten better at it in 29 of those years. 00:35:54.490 --> 00:35:56.930 And, and that's entirely up to them. 00:35:57.180 --> 00:36:01.450 Uh, but, but if without an effective training model or a process to make 00:36:01.450 --> 00:36:03.080 them better, it's never going to happen. 00:36:04.780 --> 00:36:08.050 Travis Bader: Do you, so with that background and basic statement 00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:11.980 analysis, like I remember as a kid, my father was a detective and 00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:13.960 he'd bring home different files. 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:18.435 And one of them I was reading through and They was at a hospital and there was 00:36:18.485 --> 00:36:22.935 a theft that had happened and they gave the same form to everybody to fill out. 00:36:22.995 --> 00:36:28.595 And, you know, to try and spot the person who's lying by reading just one form 00:36:28.595 --> 00:36:33.035 was difficult, but when you read them all together and their, uh, entirety and 00:36:33.035 --> 00:36:36.435 compare them against, there's one that really, really stood out from the rest. 00:36:36.755 --> 00:36:39.355 That was a person, you know, what would you do if we found 00:36:39.355 --> 00:36:40.845 the person who stole, right? 00:36:41.085 --> 00:36:42.655 What kind of punishment would you have? 00:36:42.655 --> 00:36:46.485 And people are like, people are like, Well, they should be fired right away. 00:36:46.495 --> 00:36:47.105 They should do this. 00:36:47.105 --> 00:36:50.615 And one of them says, well, you should find out why they did it. 00:36:50.615 --> 00:36:52.585 And, and maybe they had a good reason. 00:36:52.585 --> 00:36:57.745 And if they pay it back, then maybe they can that beside all of the other 00:36:57.745 --> 00:36:59.195 people are like, nope, it's wrong. 00:36:59.205 --> 00:37:01.405 Fire them really helped it stand out. 00:37:02.055 --> 00:37:06.185 So I got interested in statement analysis at a younger age. 00:37:06.195 --> 00:37:06.475 I've done both. 00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:09.780 Basic interview and interrogation and advanced interview and interrogation 00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:13.710 course through different police agencies and companies out of the States. 00:37:13.710 --> 00:37:15.120 And you're right. 00:37:15.200 --> 00:37:21.910 Um, detecting deception is a, uh, uh, is a difficult, a very, very difficult thing. 00:37:21.910 --> 00:37:24.050 And even the pros get it wrong a fair bit. 00:37:24.580 --> 00:37:30.485 Um, But as well, I apply that to just interactions with people, just looking 00:37:30.485 --> 00:37:33.075 at, uh, at how we work together. 00:37:33.565 --> 00:37:36.855 And I try and apply that same sort of principle and just getting, getting 00:37:36.855 --> 00:37:42.114 reads, I guess, on people, uh, it, does that form part of your process? 00:37:42.425 --> 00:37:46.285 Process aside from your questionnaires and going through, or are you looking 00:37:46.285 --> 00:37:53.135 at both statement analysis and, uh, physiological responses to stressors 00:37:53.135 --> 00:37:54.045 and what you're doing with them? 00:37:54.055 --> 00:37:55.025 Is that a part of it? 00:37:55.045 --> 00:37:58.475 Cause this is going to lead into another question, but I'll let you answer this. 00:37:59.605 --> 00:38:04.545 Craig Weller: Like, is there a alongside something that we could kind of hard code? 00:38:05.465 --> 00:38:09.055 You know, like we could rate statements for internal versus 00:38:09.065 --> 00:38:11.455 external locus of control or whatever. 00:38:12.145 --> 00:38:17.215 Are we integrating just a felt sense, like a kind of an instinct toward, um, 00:38:18.095 --> 00:38:21.335 to some extent, yes, I think we do. 00:38:21.405 --> 00:38:29.505 Um, generally we're able to, uh, justify that using those criteria. 00:38:29.575 --> 00:38:32.915 Um, we have that discussion every time we have a new applicant for 00:38:32.965 --> 00:38:35.265 coaching and there's four of us. 00:38:35.540 --> 00:38:39.880 Who kind of pick and choose who, through who we're going to take, who we're not. 00:38:40.270 --> 00:38:44.600 And each person basically makes their case for this is what I've seen. 00:38:44.650 --> 00:38:47.390 You know, this is where I think he's a good candidate. 00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:49.350 This is where I think they're not going to be a good candidate. 00:38:49.910 --> 00:38:53.430 Basically, this is this person's probability of success with good coaching. 00:38:53.900 --> 00:38:57.910 And, and we do, there's kind of an instinctive thing. 00:38:58.020 --> 00:39:01.480 Um, I can think of, there was one recently where. 00:39:02.705 --> 00:39:06.565 Me and Jonathan, both were just kind of immediately annoyed by this person. 00:39:08.275 --> 00:39:12.565 And it was even, it was somewhat hard to even articulate why. 00:39:12.655 --> 00:39:17.425 Um, and, and three out of four of us were like, ah, no, I'm good. 00:39:17.465 --> 00:39:19.535 I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to work with this guy. 00:39:19.535 --> 00:39:21.185 And then one guy was like, he seems coachable. 00:39:21.185 --> 00:39:24.645 I think it's going to be a challenge, you know, like I, it'll be a challenge 00:39:24.645 --> 00:39:29.115 to get him to, to think better, to, to kind of like turn his life around. 00:39:29.115 --> 00:39:30.945 And I'm going to take this challenge on. 00:39:30.965 --> 00:39:31.775 And it was. 00:39:31.790 --> 00:39:33.440 It's a complete waste of time. 00:39:33.570 --> 00:39:38.820 Um, the guy wouldn't follow his program, didn't engage with it, quit within a week. 00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:41.350 Um, you know, he had to chase him down. 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.060 It wasted everyone's time. 00:39:43.120 --> 00:39:48.490 And in that case, I think we had a few hard criteria on things like 00:39:48.610 --> 00:39:51.990 conscientiousness or even just a person's ability to like express 00:39:51.990 --> 00:39:55.470 themselves intelligently as a factor, like how well they can communicate 00:39:55.580 --> 00:39:58.500 in written language, assuming that they're a native English speaker. 00:40:00.655 --> 00:40:04.145 That's, uh, that can be a big tell because you're also looking at conscientiousness 00:40:04.145 --> 00:40:08.305 and baseline intelligence there when you see that, um, but, but something 00:40:08.305 --> 00:40:10.595 about that guy was just a felt sense. 00:40:10.705 --> 00:40:15.955 Um, and I, I think we all kind of generally, for all those reasons 00:40:15.955 --> 00:40:20.975 I just described, try not to go too far into that, um, relying 00:40:20.975 --> 00:40:21.804 solely on like a gut feeling. 00:40:21.955 --> 00:40:26.805 gut instinct kind of thing, because that can be easy, that can easily be 00:40:26.805 --> 00:40:34.835 wrong if you can't also like hard code a reason for that sense, you know, um, 00:40:34.845 --> 00:40:38.985 but we've been doing it for so long that generally our felt sense, like 00:40:38.995 --> 00:40:44.915 our initial instinct is matches up with what the hard criteria would be anyway. 00:40:44.955 --> 00:40:45.275 Because you've 00:40:45.655 --> 00:40:49.035 Travis Bader: received that immediate feedback feedback or somewhat immediate 00:40:49.035 --> 00:40:52.015 feedback from repeated trials. 00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:53.200 Craig Weller: Yeah. 00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:53.680 Yeah. 00:40:53.680 --> 00:40:58.950 So we've had the feedback loops to like, uh, calibrate that felt sense. 00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:04.190 Um, like we've been doing this for a long, long time and we've 00:41:04.190 --> 00:41:05.580 had a lot of repetitions on it. 00:41:05.580 --> 00:41:07.200 And we do have pretty good feedback on it. 00:41:07.210 --> 00:41:09.630 Like in this guy's case where he was like, I think he might be coachable. 00:41:09.630 --> 00:41:12.300 I'm going to see this as a challenge to, you know, help 00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:14.120 this guy get his life together. 00:41:14.290 --> 00:41:19.650 And basically the feedback loop that that guy got was we just turned down other 00:41:19.650 --> 00:41:22.510 people because we didn't have coaching slots who probably would have been 00:41:22.510 --> 00:41:24.040 more willing and able to do the work. 00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:29.180 We shouldn't have taken that guy, um, because he wasted all of our time. 00:41:29.190 --> 00:41:31.430 Travis Bader: You can always take the Tony Robbins approach. 00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:35.470 He's got a, uh, somebody wants personal coaching from Tony Robbins. 00:41:36.020 --> 00:41:37.470 He's going to charge you an arm and a leg. 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.770 He's going to make it hurt because if someone's willing to pay that amount 00:41:40.770 --> 00:41:44.080 of money, They'll be willing to put the work in required afterwards. 00:41:44.080 --> 00:41:44.740 It's just theory. 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.080 Anyways, maybe, maybe not. 00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:49.920 Maybe they just have a bucket of money and they can throw it around. 00:41:50.550 --> 00:41:51.050 Craig Weller: Possible. 00:41:51.310 --> 00:41:54.520 Yeah, that is possible, but it is a good filter. 00:41:54.890 --> 00:42:00.320 Um, which is kind of tragic, you know, because we, we deliberately work with 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.270 a market that is comprised of people who generally don't have a lot of 00:42:03.270 --> 00:42:09.580 money and we adjust our pricing in to account for that, uh, knowing that. 00:42:10.105 --> 00:42:13.615 You know, like if you're a 20 year old kid trying to get into special operations, 00:42:13.615 --> 00:42:18.835 like you're not throwing around a ton of cash Um, so like the coaching that we do 00:42:18.845 --> 00:42:22.005 if we were working with like executives or something like that would cost three 00:42:22.005 --> 00:42:28.605 or four times as much um, but There is that thing where you've where anyone 00:42:28.615 --> 00:42:33.955 regardless of like their financial status Values more what they pay for or values 00:42:33.955 --> 00:42:38.255 what they pay for to a greater degree So if you give something away Even if it is 00:42:38.265 --> 00:42:42.520 someone, you know They just lost their job or whatever, and they can't pay for it. 00:42:42.550 --> 00:42:45.750 And you, you start comping them a couple of months of training or something like 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.910 we've seen over the years, it is often true that, um, if you don't charge people 00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:55.190 something enough, that it hurts at least a little, they're not going to value 00:42:55.190 --> 00:42:58.580 it, which is just a tragedy kind of, because there are people where like, I'd 00:42:58.580 --> 00:43:02.130 honestly prefer to not charge them knowing how much it hurts them to pay us when 00:43:02.130 --> 00:43:03.580 they're like in a tough financial place. 00:43:04.010 --> 00:43:08.685 Um, And we do that sometimes, but it often doesn't work out 00:43:08.715 --> 00:43:11.745 because people stop valuing what they're, what they don't pay for. 00:43:11.745 --> 00:43:12.105 I give, 00:43:12.255 --> 00:43:15.825 Travis Bader: I had a, uh, it's, it's still something I struggle with is 00:43:15.825 --> 00:43:18.675 value valuing myself appropriately. 00:43:19.245 --> 00:43:24.435 Uh, I tend to give a lot of things away for free because, uh, the other 00:43:24.435 --> 00:43:28.965 side of that is if I charge 'em what I think I'm, should be valued at. 00:43:29.025 --> 00:43:33.435 I mean, like you say, that could be, that could be a, a difficult situation. 00:43:33.945 --> 00:43:34.515 Um. 00:43:35.465 --> 00:43:39.065 I I look at, uh, in, in the same way, if you, someone does something really 00:43:39.065 --> 00:43:42.665 nice for you, let's say they go out and they buy you a coffee and you turn 00:43:42.665 --> 00:43:47.045 around and you buy them, give them $10 or five bucks or whatever the coffee 00:43:47.045 --> 00:43:52.085 is worth, you can diminish their sense of giving and they can diminish 00:43:52.090 --> 00:43:53.915 their, uh, gift that they give to you. 00:43:53.915 --> 00:43:57.905 But if you turn around and give them a gift, you know, uh, in return 00:43:57.905 --> 00:43:59.435 flowers or something else, right? 00:44:00.310 --> 00:44:01.900 They can say, Hey, I feel appreciated. 00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:04.760 So that's one thing that I've always struggled with because I, you know, 00:44:04.770 --> 00:44:10.010 not wanting to be the receiver of gifts, but on the value side, there's 00:44:10.020 --> 00:44:13.460 one story that I can tell that has always cemented it in my head. 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.920 I had a fellow come in Swiss guy, older fellow. 00:44:17.575 --> 00:44:20.825 Came in back in the days before it was silvercore training and 00:44:20.825 --> 00:44:22.095 it was silvercore gun works. 00:44:22.095 --> 00:44:26.175 And I was doing gunsmithing for barber car companies across Canada 00:44:26.175 --> 00:44:27.685 and fix and to work for police. 00:44:27.685 --> 00:44:30.805 And then every Joe Blow who had a gun would bring something in. 00:44:30.805 --> 00:44:32.945 And anyways, this guy comes in. 00:44:33.485 --> 00:44:35.385 He's got a barrel, he's got an action. 00:44:35.565 --> 00:44:38.875 He says, I want this barrel cut, crowned, threaded. 00:44:39.335 --> 00:44:41.325 Uh, I want a muzzle brake put on it. 00:44:41.345 --> 00:44:45.745 I want the other side threaded to fit into the, into the action. 00:44:46.245 --> 00:44:47.325 And I want it chambered. 00:44:47.325 --> 00:44:51.055 And he had some tight specifications and I want the whole thing Parkerized. 00:44:51.055 --> 00:44:54.315 And he's got this whole laundry list of things that he wants done on it. 00:44:54.715 --> 00:44:57.905 So I go through and I started doing this work and I'm like, Oh, this old 00:44:57.915 --> 00:45:01.035 guy, he's made a point of telling me that he's an old pensioner. 00:45:01.035 --> 00:45:04.205 And so I, what am I going to charge him? 00:45:04.205 --> 00:45:08.695 And I go Brownells in the States has got a high, low of what gunsmiths charge. 00:45:08.705 --> 00:45:10.405 And I just went on the low side of everything. 00:45:10.405 --> 00:45:13.205 And some, I just crossed off and I gave him a smoking deal. 00:45:13.315 --> 00:45:15.355 Anyways, he gets his rifle. 00:45:15.825 --> 00:45:16.435 He looks at it. 00:45:16.435 --> 00:45:17.515 Hey, thanks very much. 00:45:17.515 --> 00:45:18.085 See you later. 00:45:18.375 --> 00:45:18.955 Oh, okay. 00:45:18.995 --> 00:45:19.625 Fair enough. 00:45:20.615 --> 00:45:25.275 Comes back a week later, another same type of action, another barrel. 00:45:25.275 --> 00:45:28.025 He says, I want another one done up, but I wanted the exact same 00:45:28.025 --> 00:45:31.145 thing done, but in a different, uh, chambering, a different caliber. 00:45:32.185 --> 00:45:34.145 I'm like, now the guys has taken advantage of me. 00:45:34.145 --> 00:45:34.805 I'm thinking, right. 00:45:34.805 --> 00:45:38.265 So I, I go through and I go to the Brownells list and I go on the high 00:45:38.285 --> 00:45:39.765 side and I charge her everything. 00:45:39.905 --> 00:45:43.485 He came, he looked at the work and he turned around and left, 00:45:43.485 --> 00:45:44.455 he went back to his truck. 00:45:44.455 --> 00:45:45.665 And I'm like, oh man, he's mad. 00:45:45.665 --> 00:45:46.555 Cause he looked at the bill. 00:45:46.555 --> 00:45:49.475 He looked at the work and it's a lot more than the last one. 00:45:49.475 --> 00:45:50.595 And I warned him ahead of time. 00:45:50.595 --> 00:45:52.185 I'm not going to be able to give him the same price. 00:45:52.515 --> 00:45:56.075 Anyways, he came back and he put these white gloves on and he picked 00:45:56.075 --> 00:45:57.425 it up and he holds it up to the light. 00:45:57.425 --> 00:46:00.355 And he says, no, that that's quality work. 00:46:00.875 --> 00:46:04.945 I did the exact same thing that I did for him the week prior on this other gun. 00:46:05.425 --> 00:46:07.799 I just charged him more and that paid off. 00:46:07.950 --> 00:46:11.630 Perception of the value for getting charged more is always 00:46:11.640 --> 00:46:12.970 stuck in the back of my head. 00:46:14.810 --> 00:46:17.260 Craig Weller: That's a good, that's a really good example. 00:46:17.260 --> 00:46:21.000 That's like having run a bunch of gyms and stuff that is a really common 00:46:21.010 --> 00:46:23.990 thing to struggle with is like when you're running your own business. 00:46:24.770 --> 00:46:29.910 Um, But yeah, it's, uh, it's a good example of how that psychology works. 00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:35.620 Uh, crucially you are really good at what you do, so you can back that price 00:46:35.620 --> 00:46:38.590 up with the quality of your, your craft. 00:46:38.730 --> 00:46:42.900 Um, you know, there, there are certainly people where that's a mismatch, but. 00:46:43.270 --> 00:46:47.680 But yeah, it is, it is a good illustration of that concept. 00:46:47.690 --> 00:46:51.290 Travis Bader: So people who listen to this podcast, if they go back a few, they're 00:46:51.290 --> 00:46:53.330 going to see what I did with Sean Taylor. 00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:54.860 He was one of the plank holders. 00:46:54.910 --> 00:46:56.340 He started up GTF too. 00:46:57.080 --> 00:47:01.060 They probably also listened to the collective of which both you and I have 00:47:01.060 --> 00:47:03.320 been on on a number of times in the past. 00:47:03.410 --> 00:47:05.590 And of course, Sean and Chance are on there all the time. 00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:09.850 For those people who know who we're talking about, and even for those who 00:47:09.850 --> 00:47:13.470 don't, who want to go and check out the collective or listen to the past episodes, 00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:18.110 Sean Taylor, how would you look at him? 00:47:18.120 --> 00:47:21.790 If you're looking at statement analysis, you're looking at gut feeling, how 00:47:21.790 --> 00:47:25.960 would you kind of break him down from an analytical standpoint for 00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:29.220 why he's been able to be successful in the areas that he has been? 00:47:30.260 --> 00:47:33.050 And if you were to provide advice to him, what would those 00:47:33.050 --> 00:47:36.070 areas be to put you on the spot? 00:47:36.070 --> 00:47:36.080 I 00:47:36.080 --> 00:47:37.790 Craig Weller: don't know if I'd have any, I don't know if I could 00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.950 have any advice for Sean that, that he's not already doing. 00:47:41.060 --> 00:47:49.790 Um, He, if he fits that exact profile of highly conscientious, like, like he's the 00:47:49.790 --> 00:47:51.930 guy who can sleep through storms for sure. 00:47:52.490 --> 00:47:54.360 Um, emotionally stable. 00:47:54.390 --> 00:47:59.260 And in his case, I don't know all of the details on this. 00:47:59.260 --> 00:48:02.970 I've talked to him a bit of like the books and the ideas that 00:48:02.970 --> 00:48:04.730 have influenced him over time. 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.750 Um, I know he got into Bruce Lee's stuff a long, long time ago, like his 00:48:08.750 --> 00:48:10.290 philosophy writing and that kind of stuff. 00:48:10.850 --> 00:48:13.220 Um, but he's made a conscious. 00:48:13.435 --> 00:48:20.155 Practice of learning and internalizing concepts through experience. 00:48:20.525 --> 00:48:26.305 Um, so, you know, like any concept that we talk about, like toughness 00:48:26.365 --> 00:48:32.205 or discipline or whatever, um, the words themselves don't really mean 00:48:32.215 --> 00:48:37.104 anything unless they're informed by an experience that you've had, that you've 00:48:37.105 --> 00:48:39.785 navigated with those things in mind. 00:48:39.995 --> 00:48:43.145 Um, like until you've lived it, you, you don't really know what it is. 00:48:43.145 --> 00:48:44.655 You just know the words that describe it. 00:48:45.295 --> 00:48:50.675 And Sean has done a very good job of living all of those things 00:48:51.005 --> 00:48:53.715 so that they are who he is. 00:48:53.835 --> 00:48:56.395 They're not just things that he knows or words he can say. 00:48:56.995 --> 00:48:58.085 They're who he is. 00:48:58.165 --> 00:49:04.225 And I think that's one of the things that distinguishes Sean from most other people. 00:49:04.520 --> 00:49:12.110 Is everything that he would, any value that he would express, um, is 00:49:12.110 --> 00:49:16.700 basically matched one to one by what's on the inside and what he's done or 00:49:16.700 --> 00:49:18.740 what he does on a consistent basis. 00:49:18.740 --> 00:49:22.950 Like there's no mismatch between his externally expressed values 00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:26.140 and the way that he lives his life. 00:49:26.680 --> 00:49:29.230 Um, and that's a pretty rare thing. 00:49:29.720 --> 00:49:31.440 And he fits that whole profile. 00:49:31.600 --> 00:49:36.330 You know, he's fairly agreeable to the extent that he needs to be, 00:49:36.330 --> 00:49:38.060 because I think he's a sociable guy. 00:49:38.070 --> 00:49:39.510 He's pretty extroverted. 00:49:40.050 --> 00:49:45.060 His cognitive style is fairly externally oriented and broad. 00:49:45.700 --> 00:49:52.230 He, so he's, he sees like a big spider web of interconnected ideas around him. 00:49:52.230 --> 00:49:55.790 And he's, he's kind of thinking outside of himself a lot. 00:49:55.970 --> 00:49:58.230 Um, but he can shift internally as well. 00:49:58.230 --> 00:49:59.800 And he's very introspective. 00:50:00.010 --> 00:50:02.780 Um, so he's just kind of agile mentally. 00:50:02.955 --> 00:50:04.565 He's a really interesting guy in that sense. 00:50:04.735 --> 00:50:08.445 Um, I don't know what advice I would give him. 00:50:08.715 --> 00:50:10.125 I don't think I have any, honestly. 00:50:10.855 --> 00:50:12.305 The dude is like, how old is he? 00:50:12.305 --> 00:50:13.085 Like he's in his sixties. 00:50:13.085 --> 00:50:18.145 He's more ripped than most 20 something crossfitters. 00:50:18.165 --> 00:50:22.185 Like he's, and he's, he's just like a good dude. 00:50:22.205 --> 00:50:23.445 It's yeah. 00:50:23.495 --> 00:50:25.175 I don't, I don't know if I'd have any advice for him. 00:50:25.185 --> 00:50:26.805 We, so you got those meals, right? 00:50:26.805 --> 00:50:29.015 We sent you the base camp kitchen. 00:50:29.605 --> 00:50:30.685 He got them too. 00:50:31.475 --> 00:50:33.675 And his tasting notes were like. 00:50:34.005 --> 00:50:38.115 He like a sommelier , he sent them to, to jen, the chef. 00:50:38.435 --> 00:50:40.835 And he, I think he mismatched a label. 00:50:40.835 --> 00:50:46.525 He read something, he read the wrong one, but his tasting notes, 00:50:46.525 --> 00:50:47.935 he was noting the mismatches. 00:50:47.935 --> 00:50:49.315 He's like, there's something spicy in here. 00:50:49.315 --> 00:50:49.975 There's nutmeg. 00:50:49.975 --> 00:50:52.225 I know there's nutmeg, but I don't see nutmeg on the recipes. 00:50:52.615 --> 00:50:55.525 And when you hit the low, the base notes in this. 00:50:55.525 --> 00:50:58.375 And the, it was like, it was incredible. 00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:02.240 Like the guy is basically a professional food taster somehow. 00:51:02.350 --> 00:51:06.870 And I'm guessing that comes from having run a coffee shop and like being, you 00:51:06.870 --> 00:51:11.900 know, like really into the nuance and, and tasting quality there is probably 00:51:11.900 --> 00:51:13.960 where that at least was refined. 00:51:14.750 --> 00:51:16.310 Who knows what else he's been up to. 00:51:16.310 --> 00:51:17.390 I think it comes from 00:51:17.390 --> 00:51:19.490 Travis Bader: wanting to do a job well. 00:51:19.530 --> 00:51:24.470 And if he's going to do it to provide the best bang for the best job that he 00:51:24.470 --> 00:51:26.980 can possibly do in, in that process. 00:51:26.980 --> 00:51:28.040 I think that's what it comes from. 00:51:28.710 --> 00:51:29.210 I know. 00:51:29.250 --> 00:51:29.610 Craig Weller: Yeah. 00:51:29.610 --> 00:51:29.850 Yeah. 00:51:29.850 --> 00:51:31.910 Cause I told him like, you're hired, you're the new executive 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:33.930 vice president of tasting things. 00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:38.550 And his response was just like, just excellence in what I do, like 00:51:38.550 --> 00:51:39.640 excellence in everything I do. 00:51:39.640 --> 00:51:40.300 And I think that's it. 00:51:40.370 --> 00:51:45.400 Like, like he understood the assignment, like we're sending you these meals and 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:48.640 we want better feedback than it was good. 00:51:48.740 --> 00:51:53.000 You know, you know, I ate it and I was full, like it, it 00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:55.090 was exactly what we needed. 00:51:55.200 --> 00:51:56.150 And yeah. 00:51:56.200 --> 00:51:58.040 Travis Bader: Well, we, uh, had the. 00:51:58.130 --> 00:51:59.310 First one today. 00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:01.360 So I'll, you'll be getting some notes on that one. 00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:07.750 And, uh, um, my, uh, my wife's a chef and so, uh, going to be getting, getting some 00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.450 notes from, from that perspective as well. 00:52:10.450 --> 00:52:11.910 It just, uh, that's 00:52:11.910 --> 00:52:12.470 Craig Weller: helpful. 00:52:12.490 --> 00:52:12.790 Yes. 00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:13.390 That's what we need. 00:52:13.390 --> 00:52:13.490 So 00:52:13.490 --> 00:52:17.730 Travis Bader: she's a red seal chef for, um, previously in a previous 00:52:17.730 --> 00:52:22.670 life now she's doing, um, a lot of work with Silvercorp since we got 00:52:22.670 --> 00:52:24.380 to a point where we needed her help. 00:52:25.140 --> 00:52:26.350 Um, uh, cool. 00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:26.720 So. 00:52:27.090 --> 00:52:28.610 You know, you talk about mental toughness. 00:52:28.610 --> 00:52:32.400 A lot of people say, well, that, that, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 00:52:33.040 --> 00:52:37.180 And I used to, uh, Subscribe to that school of thought way back in the 00:52:37.180 --> 00:52:39.010 day, when I was a kid, Oh, sure. 00:52:39.060 --> 00:52:41.460 The tougher it is, it doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. 00:52:41.830 --> 00:52:42.830 Maybe, maybe not. 00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:45.950 Maybe it just keeps compounding on top of you, and if you don't 00:52:45.950 --> 00:52:50.940 have ways to deal with it, you get beaten down further and further. 00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:56.332 And so at some point I had to figure out some ways to be able to, uh, you 00:52:56.332 --> 00:53:00.725 know, Build processes for myself to, like, you talk about that trailer that 00:53:00.735 --> 00:53:05.045 you drag behind you to put things in the trailer, drag it to where they need 00:53:05.055 --> 00:53:07.115 to be, let them off and keep on going. 00:53:07.415 --> 00:53:10.205 And so I can, uh, uh, get further. 00:53:10.755 --> 00:53:17.895 Um, what, what would you suggest for a person who wants to be mentally stronger? 00:53:18.095 --> 00:53:22.265 Are there some steps that you would point a person towards to, uh, 00:53:22.275 --> 00:53:23.655 increase their mental strength? 00:53:25.390 --> 00:53:29.035 Craig Weller: Hmm, um, Yes. 00:53:29.235 --> 00:53:33.645 Some of it will depend on a personal profile, because the recipe isn't the 00:53:33.645 --> 00:53:37.975 same for everyone, so you'd have to, oops, you'd have to understand where 00:53:37.975 --> 00:53:42.895 you struggle, what specifically you struggle with, and, and then work 00:53:42.895 --> 00:53:45.745 to address those things, because that can be different for everyone. 00:53:45.825 --> 00:53:51.310 Um, one thing that's, commonly misunderstood is that, uh, like, 00:53:51.310 --> 00:53:53.930 first of all, the concept of toughness is a lot more limited 00:53:53.930 --> 00:53:56.150 than some people make it out to be. 00:53:56.230 --> 00:54:01.590 Toughness is essentially goal fixedness, which means you're just going to keep 00:54:02.290 --> 00:54:05.400 badgering away at something until you accomplish it or it kills you, but that's 00:54:05.570 --> 00:54:07.840 The problem is that it can go both ways. 00:54:08.170 --> 00:54:14.500 Um, so toughness should be paired with adaptability and an intelligent 00:54:14.560 --> 00:54:15.910 approach to what you're doing. 00:54:16.460 --> 00:54:19.580 Um, like there's that saying, if you're going to be dumb, you better be 00:54:19.580 --> 00:54:23.860 tough, but it, it would be better said that if you're going to be tough, you 00:54:23.860 --> 00:54:26.620 should be smart as well, uh, otherwise. 00:54:26.730 --> 00:54:29.790 Toughness is just going to kill you, like you're just going to keep doing something 00:54:29.790 --> 00:54:35.560 wrong over and over, doing it the unnecessarily hard way over and over until 00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:36.760 you figure out a better way to do it. 00:54:36.770 --> 00:54:41.410 Like you could think of me swimming, like I was mentally tough, trying 00:54:41.410 --> 00:54:44.100 harder and harder to swim really badly. 00:54:44.605 --> 00:54:48.265 When all I needed to do was do it better and, and more toughness 00:54:48.265 --> 00:54:51.255 or more fitness wasn't going to help me out of that situation. 00:54:51.325 --> 00:54:52.615 Didn't you almost drown? 00:54:53.795 --> 00:54:55.225 Oh, I, yeah, repeatedly. 00:54:56.775 --> 00:55:00.855 Drowning was like a, like a weekly event, almost like I lost consciousness. 00:55:01.095 --> 00:55:02.875 In the water several times. 00:55:02.915 --> 00:55:06.095 Um, I would get these terrible migraines cause like the long 00:55:06.095 --> 00:55:09.775 swims might take 90 minutes and I'd be hypoxic the entire time. 00:55:10.365 --> 00:55:13.035 Um, so I'd have like these terrible headaches from 90 minutes 00:55:13.035 --> 00:55:15.585 of hypoxia, which is probably really bad for your brain. 00:55:16.225 --> 00:55:18.695 Um, it's not showing on you 00:55:18.695 --> 00:55:18.965 Travis Bader: yet. 00:55:19.595 --> 00:55:20.565 We'll see how you age. 00:55:20.565 --> 00:55:21.165 So far, 00:55:21.765 --> 00:55:22.685 Craig Weller: we'll give it time. 00:55:22.755 --> 00:55:23.245 Yeah. 00:55:23.305 --> 00:55:26.935 Um, but one, another, another piece of that, like the, you know, like how 00:55:26.935 --> 00:55:28.515 do I become mentally stronger thing? 00:55:29.045 --> 00:55:33.665 Um, I think you actually touched on this, the idea that, what was it? 00:55:33.665 --> 00:55:36.305 Problems suppressed, a problem suppressed is a problem. 00:55:36.305 --> 00:55:36.815 Amplified. 00:55:38.135 --> 00:55:38.945 Amplified. 00:55:39.045 --> 00:55:40.375 Yeah, it's a really good expression. 00:55:42.365 --> 00:55:50.585 Emotions or emotional health are an integral part of being more resilient or 00:55:50.585 --> 00:55:56.505 tough or whatever you would say because if you're getting through life by numbing 00:55:56.595 --> 00:56:03.805 and ignoring emotions, they're going to come back and they're going to be stronger 00:56:03.825 --> 00:56:06.205 and you're not going to have the skills. 00:56:07.100 --> 00:56:08.010 To handle that. 00:56:08.060 --> 00:56:14.360 Um, and even, even reasoning or like decision making happens 00:56:14.370 --> 00:56:16.620 with the aid of emotions. 00:56:16.680 --> 00:56:20.780 Um, if you look at someone who's trying to make a decision without 00:56:20.900 --> 00:56:24.810 any input from emotions, you're looking at a person who's pretty 00:56:24.810 --> 00:56:26.330 significantly on the autism spectrum. 00:56:26.740 --> 00:56:27.900 And that's what that does. 00:56:28.330 --> 00:56:31.000 That's, that's where that decision making comes from, where they're overwhelmed 00:56:31.010 --> 00:56:33.850 by everything because they don't have an emotion that helps point them in the 00:56:33.850 --> 00:56:35.510 right direction and shortcut that process. 00:56:36.220 --> 00:56:42.730 And even when we're detecting danger, um, we're recognizing patterns, most of that 00:56:42.740 --> 00:56:48.800 happens subcognitively or emotionally before we're consciously aware of it. 00:56:49.330 --> 00:56:55.750 Um, so being able to integrate emotions into our reasoning, um, whether we're, 00:56:56.150 --> 00:56:59.870 you know, Solving a problem at work, learning how to write code, or, you know, 00:56:59.870 --> 00:57:02.750 like we're navigating social situations or trying to decide whether we should 00:57:02.750 --> 00:57:04.170 quit the selection course or not. 00:57:04.610 --> 00:57:11.930 Um, being tuned into your emotional state and able to monitor it objectively 00:57:12.240 --> 00:57:17.610 and recognize what you're feeling, categorize it accurately and respond to 00:57:17.610 --> 00:57:20.070 it appropriately is an important skill. 00:57:20.580 --> 00:57:24.835 And it's one of the things that we're currently working on more with our The 00:57:24.835 --> 00:57:29.025 clients that we have, um, because we're in a place where we can physically 00:57:29.055 --> 00:57:33.235 get pretty much anyone where they need to be given a long enough timeline. 00:57:33.755 --> 00:57:36.625 And we can give them cognitive skills that help them navigate situations, 00:57:36.625 --> 00:57:40.025 which are a key piece of, of, you know, resilience or toughness or whatever. 00:57:40.435 --> 00:57:44.275 Um, things like segmenting, uh, are really important, which is where you 00:57:44.275 --> 00:57:47.385 break a task down into the smallest manageable pieces you need to. 00:57:47.755 --> 00:57:50.795 So in a really tough day in selection, you might only think about doing the next 00:57:50.795 --> 00:57:54.585 five pushups or running the next hundred meters or whatever's in front of you. 00:57:54.720 --> 00:57:57.210 Make it to breakfast, make it to lunch, make it to dinner, break 00:57:57.210 --> 00:57:58.380 your day down in that sense. 00:57:58.430 --> 00:58:03.560 And there's a paradox in there as well where compartmentalization can be a 00:58:03.560 --> 00:58:09.430 useful skill when you're using it to acknowledge and recognize a negative 00:58:09.430 --> 00:58:13.490 feeling, a negative emotion or something that sucks that either you can't do 00:58:13.490 --> 00:58:17.960 anything about at the moment or it's unproductive to address it at that time 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:19.320 because you have other things to do. 00:58:19.750 --> 00:58:23.290 So you're terribly hypothermic because you've been sitting in 00:58:23.290 --> 00:58:24.650 cold water all day or all night. 00:58:25.635 --> 00:58:26.465 It's terrible. 00:58:26.785 --> 00:58:28.725 You recognize that it's terrible that you're really cold. 00:58:28.735 --> 00:58:31.265 You also recognize that it doesn't matter There's nothing you can do about it. 00:58:31.265 --> 00:58:34.305 It's not going to kill you and you have other things to do So you just set 00:58:34.305 --> 00:58:38.515 that aside you just like set aside that hypothermia and you put it out of your 00:58:38.515 --> 00:58:43.315 mind You may put away Negative emotions at that time, you know, like you feel 00:58:43.315 --> 00:58:46.565 some self doubt or something You can just put that in a box set it aside for 00:58:46.565 --> 00:58:49.795 now because you have push ups to do you have something else to do the problem 00:58:49.795 --> 00:58:55.500 with that is if Compartmentalization or numbing becomes your go to 00:58:55.510 --> 00:58:58.200 method all of the time, constantly. 00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:02.610 And you're doing it with things that don't go away, that aren't transient. 00:59:03.050 --> 00:59:06.230 You know, like it's, it's useful when you're hypothermic at midnight and 00:59:06.230 --> 00:59:07.550 you're gonna be warm the next morning. 00:59:07.700 --> 00:59:12.540 And then it's fine, but it's not useful when it's something that isn't going to go 00:59:12.540 --> 00:59:16.110 away and you're going to have to continue dealing with it without the ability to do 00:59:16.110 --> 00:59:17.860 so because you've never directly faced it. 00:59:18.510 --> 00:59:22.350 Um, so one of the, one of the things that we have people do is 00:59:22.350 --> 00:59:27.560 just work on, on that, the ability to recognize and understand their 00:59:27.560 --> 00:59:31.370 emotions and to be able to sit with them without suppression or avoidance. 00:59:31.575 --> 00:59:37.945 And in order to give themselves, um, like a better view of the landscape, 00:59:37.945 --> 00:59:41.425 so to speak, so that they're able to navigate those things more effectively. 00:59:41.895 --> 00:59:46.725 Because once someone has the fitness, once they're not just failing the screen test 00:59:46.735 --> 00:59:51.375 to get into a selection course, or they're missing the run cutoffs or whatever, um, 00:59:51.605 --> 00:59:57.405 the reasons people quit in these really difficult courses usually come down to 00:59:57.435 --> 01:00:02.685 either I don't feel like I belong here or other people don't feel like I belong here 01:00:02.705 --> 01:00:08.305 and I believe them and then they quit and they go away and that perception is very 01:00:08.305 --> 01:00:12.195 fluid and it has very little to do with their objective performance in the course. 01:00:12.315 --> 01:00:16.245 Um, we've seen people quit who were out of like right at the 01:00:16.245 --> 01:00:17.195 end of the selection course. 01:00:17.195 --> 01:00:19.075 This was, uh, one outside of the U. 01:00:19.075 --> 01:00:19.435 S. 01:00:19.555 --> 01:00:24.630 Um, It's maybe a three week course they had two days to go And they quit because 01:00:24.630 --> 01:00:26.810 they felt like they just weren't good enough like they didn't belong there 01:00:26.810 --> 01:00:30.250 They shouldn't have been there and then they learned afterward that out of the 20 01:00:30.250 --> 01:00:33.670 some guys left They were number two like physically in every performance metric. 01:00:33.680 --> 01:00:37.140 They were the second like top performer they were definitely going to make it if 01:00:37.140 --> 01:00:44.390 they just Um, and, and that perception of, I don't belong here, other people 01:00:44.390 --> 01:00:50.990 don't think I belong here is it's, it's in your head, it's on you and people 01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:54.280 have to be able to deal with that and the factors that are going to impose that 01:00:54.540 --> 01:00:58.770 because these courses are designed to make you believe that because that's one of 01:00:58.770 --> 01:01:05.200 the main things they're testing is your ability to retain your own self belief. 01:01:05.675 --> 01:01:11.365 Or your own intrinsic drive in circumstances that are entirely 01:01:11.365 --> 01:01:14.325 discouraging and entirely designed to take that away from you. 01:01:14.795 --> 01:01:17.625 And if you have someone who still believes that they're capable of 01:01:17.625 --> 01:01:22.935 moving forward and that they deserve to earn their place, when that entire 01:01:22.935 --> 01:01:25.725 system is trying to break them down and take that belief away from them, then 01:01:25.725 --> 01:01:27.025 you have someone who's very strong. 01:01:27.690 --> 01:01:31.690 Um, but that comes down to a lot more than being good at exercise. 01:01:31.770 --> 01:01:35.560 It comes down to knowing yourself and knowing your motivations and 01:01:35.560 --> 01:01:39.280 knowing what matters to you and who you are and basically that 01:01:39.290 --> 01:01:44.380 you are, that you are allowed or you're entitled to earn your place. 01:01:44.430 --> 01:01:49.550 Not that you have a place that you're just owed one, but that you deserve to earn 01:01:49.550 --> 01:01:52.060 it, like that, that you can work for it. 01:01:52.080 --> 01:01:53.950 And it's yours if you fight for it. 01:01:54.650 --> 01:01:59.280 And that's where, The fit people who are otherwise qualified tend to break. 01:01:59.340 --> 01:02:01.480 Um, it's just, they become emotionally discouraged. 01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:03.480 Travis Bader: So those would be emotionally based 01:02:03.490 --> 01:02:04.810 decisions that they're making. 01:02:05.010 --> 01:02:09.560 And yeah, like so many people, like, how do you differentiate between 01:02:09.870 --> 01:02:13.440 running away from something or running towards something that's more desirable, 01:02:13.490 --> 01:02:19.960 being able to differentiate I'm quitting because I, I can't handle it. 01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:20.750 I'm just not good enough. 01:02:20.770 --> 01:02:22.160 People don't like me too. 01:02:22.370 --> 01:02:23.590 I'm quitting because. 01:02:24.455 --> 01:02:26.825 There's actually a better path for me to go forward. 01:02:26.825 --> 01:02:30.085 And that's one of those things that people rationalize in their head, right? 01:02:30.115 --> 01:02:32.545 Oh no, it's not because I wasn't good enough. 01:02:32.545 --> 01:02:35.095 It's because I can do better work over here. 01:02:35.435 --> 01:02:38.015 Like that, that's a tough piece of the puzzle. 01:02:38.605 --> 01:02:41.635 I got to imagine for not only for the individual, but for you to be 01:02:41.635 --> 01:02:43.795 able to be working with, with people. 01:02:45.285 --> 01:02:47.425 Craig Weller: Well, and, and it can be true. 01:02:47.735 --> 01:02:48.485 I mean, that's, that's true. 01:02:49.185 --> 01:02:51.055 Part of what these courses are doing. 01:02:51.055 --> 01:02:54.345 Like if you're in the middle of all that chaos and pain and like, people 01:02:54.345 --> 01:02:58.535 are yelling and you're doing pushups and, and you just realize like, like, 01:02:58.545 --> 01:03:01.595 that's kind of what your job's going to be like anyway, like that's something 01:03:01.595 --> 01:03:05.755 that a lot of our people who have graduated and moved on, we talked to 01:03:05.755 --> 01:03:08.935 them after about what their job is like and what they wish they had known. 01:03:08.945 --> 01:03:12.135 They're like, the hard part isn't over. 01:03:12.145 --> 01:03:14.965 Like these selections are designed this way. 01:03:15.175 --> 01:03:17.635 Because this is what the job is like, like, you're still going to 01:03:17.635 --> 01:03:21.315 be cold, wet and miserable as a professional, like with that pin 01:03:21.315 --> 01:03:23.195 on your chest, it's not going away. 01:03:23.595 --> 01:03:27.415 And so if you're in that environment and not just because of the 01:03:27.415 --> 01:03:30.115 physical discomfort or the emotional discomfort, but you're just like, 01:03:30.475 --> 01:03:35.845 this lifestyle is not for me and I would much rather do something else. 01:03:35.905 --> 01:03:41.005 Like I have skills or capacities or interests, things that I'm good at 01:03:41.485 --> 01:03:43.465 that fit in a different box than this. 01:03:43.795 --> 01:03:48.035 Then then leaving that course is the right decision and you should go do that. 01:03:48.535 --> 01:03:55.155 Um, but like you said We're really good at rationalizing our excuses and you can 01:03:55.155 --> 01:04:00.125 see people doing it over time because usually quitting People build up to it. 01:04:00.165 --> 01:04:04.205 They they kind of they test out their story, their narrative, their excuses, 01:04:04.205 --> 01:04:06.475 and, and, and make it okay in their head. 01:04:07.045 --> 01:04:08.825 They'll test it with their friends a little bit. 01:04:08.945 --> 01:04:12.535 Um, and, and they build that rationalization. 01:04:13.355 --> 01:04:17.075 Uh, and if, if it's just that, if it's just like giving yourself a comfortable 01:04:17.075 --> 01:04:21.285 reason to give up on yourself on something that you actually wanted, but 01:04:21.285 --> 01:04:25.845 you're not quite willing to pay for, then, then, I mean, it's still a good 01:04:25.845 --> 01:04:27.945 thing that you're not in the course because that's not the kind of person 01:04:27.945 --> 01:04:30.465 they want in those courses, but, um, 01:04:32.970 --> 01:04:36.750 I'm kind of, I'm kind of losing the thread here, but it is a useful, 01:04:37.480 --> 01:04:41.190 it is, it is a useful thing to know those things about yourself. 01:04:41.230 --> 01:04:44.010 Travis Bader: Well, it's one of the pieces of the puzzle, which when you brought up, 01:04:44.420 --> 01:04:49.060 you know, modern day samurai, I remember, uh, I think you know him as well. 01:04:50.550 --> 01:04:54.160 Speaking with him, one of the early podcasts I did with him. 01:04:54.160 --> 01:04:58.770 And I, he's talking about the whole emotional aspect to training in 01:04:58.770 --> 01:05:03.580 jujitsu training as a, um, he was head of BC emergency response team. 01:05:03.580 --> 01:05:12.180 And, and I look back to, um, like, uh, my father, when he was training, he was in 01:05:12.180 --> 01:05:15.880 charge of the, uh, Vancouver's emergency response team for a number of years. 01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:19.380 And I didn't see. 01:05:20.655 --> 01:05:24.995 From my perspective, any emphasis put on the emotional side and listening to 01:05:24.995 --> 01:05:28.865 Seb talk about this, they can, uh, the older eras, it seemed to be all about 01:05:29.015 --> 01:05:34.185 physicality and all about, uh, uh, mental grit and toughness and perseverance 01:05:34.185 --> 01:05:37.215 and it sucks, but we're pushing it through anyways, but the emotional 01:05:37.215 --> 01:05:38.785 side was just completely ignored. 01:05:39.930 --> 01:05:42.340 And I said, well, this is kind of cool that it's being addressed. 01:05:42.340 --> 01:05:44.340 And so I was like, well, when was it forgotten? 01:05:44.410 --> 01:05:44.750 Right. 01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:47.790 I mean, this is always a piece of the puzzle going back hundreds 01:05:47.790 --> 01:05:52.350 and thousands of years was the emotional side to the warrior. 01:05:52.820 --> 01:05:59.440 Um, are you finding a resurgence in the desire for emotional balance 01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:01.660 in special operator training? 01:06:02.130 --> 01:06:07.220 Uh, or is that, uh, something that's always just kind of been there that other 01:06:07.220 --> 01:06:09.130 people like myself just haven't seen. 01:06:11.040 --> 01:06:14.290 Craig Weller: Uh, there's always been a threat of it. 01:06:14.370 --> 01:06:17.050 Um, it, it depends on the community a bit. 01:06:17.130 --> 01:06:19.530 I, I think it's always been there within certain people. 01:06:19.600 --> 01:06:22.210 Um, but we're seeing a resurgence in it. 01:06:22.250 --> 01:06:25.920 I think now because we're post GWAT would be the U. 01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:26.140 S. 01:06:26.160 --> 01:06:26.810 term for it. 01:06:26.810 --> 01:06:31.710 Like we're post all these 9 11 forever wars and we just. 01:06:32.565 --> 01:06:38.635 Destroyed our special operators for 20 years, throwing them into endless combat 01:06:38.635 --> 01:06:40.065 deployments over and over and over. 01:06:40.635 --> 01:06:43.245 And we're seeing the guys that are coming out without physical 01:06:43.245 --> 01:06:45.875 injuries are often still not okay. 01:06:46.975 --> 01:06:49.545 And there's a growing awareness. 01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:54.340 That if you want to have a functioning home life, if you want to have functioning 01:06:54.340 --> 01:07:00.320 relationships, if you just want to feel okay with yourself, um, that you have 01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:03.460 to take care of those pieces as you go. 01:07:03.640 --> 01:07:06.309 Uh, and I, I think that awareness is, is important. 01:07:06.680 --> 01:07:11.850 It's been driven by multiple decades of failing to do so effectively, 01:07:12.220 --> 01:07:17.890 and us seeing the negative results of that, of people who either burn 01:07:17.890 --> 01:07:21.170 out within their community, or they leave their community and they can't 01:07:21.180 --> 01:07:23.000 really function that well anymore. 01:07:23.080 --> 01:07:28.070 And it's because they stayed good at exercising, but they 01:07:28.080 --> 01:07:30.230 let everything else die off. 01:07:30.350 --> 01:07:37.145 And We've, we've realized that we could do better at that, that we can have people 01:07:37.155 --> 01:07:41.285 who are not just physically fit and good at exercising, but that are also still 01:07:41.285 --> 01:07:45.345 emotionally fit and capable of being good family members and good friends and 01:07:45.345 --> 01:07:47.855 socially okay and okay with themselves. 01:07:48.475 --> 01:07:53.105 And, and, and there is a shift toward that, I think. 01:07:54.215 --> 01:07:59.735 The selection courses are also changing a bit in most cases where they're looking 01:07:59.735 --> 01:08:02.175 a little more at the complete person. 01:08:02.225 --> 01:08:06.625 Um, a lot of times I think if, I think even Sean's early days, some of his 01:08:06.625 --> 01:08:11.295 courses were largely based on just surviving short term physical brutality. 01:08:11.470 --> 01:08:13.850 Um, and you can get people through with a particular 01:08:13.850 --> 01:08:16.260 personality type who can do that. 01:08:16.300 --> 01:08:19.500 Um, but now they're starting to look a little bit more at the whole person 01:08:19.550 --> 01:08:23.020 and how they're going to interact with the team, whether it's going 01:08:23.020 --> 01:08:27.550 to become a criminal later on, you know, like these kinds of things and 01:08:27.640 --> 01:08:29.250 the selection criteria are different. 01:08:29.260 --> 01:08:30.880 So there are courses now where a lot of people. 01:08:31.020 --> 01:08:33.300 can make it through physically, but they're still not going to be chosen. 01:08:33.300 --> 01:08:34.410 They're not going to be selected. 01:08:34.990 --> 01:08:38.000 And that's going to be based on some kind of social dynamic thing. 01:08:38.050 --> 01:08:41.940 Um, how they do in an interview, how they do in a contrived social 01:08:41.950 --> 01:08:46.830 setting, um, places where their sociability and emotional health, even 01:08:46.830 --> 01:08:49.760 just interviews with a psychiatrist, um, are going to factor into 01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:50.950 whether they get the job or not. 01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:53.950 So even for people who don't particularly care about it. 01:08:54.160 --> 01:08:59.380 Uh, they're recognizing that it might be necessary for them to get what they want. 01:08:59.470 --> 01:08:59.760 Yeah. 01:09:00.030 --> 01:09:01.700 So they're working on it just for that reason. 01:09:01.710 --> 01:09:01.830 Well, 01:09:01.830 --> 01:09:05.110 Travis Bader: wouldn't a higher level of psychopathy predispose an individual to 01:09:05.110 --> 01:09:13.950 maybe be a little bit, uh, uh, further along the, uh, the, wouldn't that allow 01:09:13.950 --> 01:09:17.120 somebody to be able to approach these challenges a little bit more easily? 01:09:18.635 --> 01:09:20.385 Craig Weller: Yes, depending on the challenge. 01:09:20.625 --> 01:09:20.885 Yes. 01:09:21.245 --> 01:09:26.255 Um, the really, the courses that really rely on physical brutality, 01:09:26.255 --> 01:09:31.175 I think do skew a little more toward sociopathy or psychopathy possibly. 01:09:31.475 --> 01:09:36.155 The, I'm not well versed enough in some of the diagnostic criteria for that. 01:09:36.155 --> 01:09:41.625 I think psychopathy, uh, isn't really its own DSM category. 01:09:41.735 --> 01:09:43.165 I think you'd mostly put. 01:09:43.495 --> 01:09:45.515 Those characteristics under sociopathy. 01:09:46.385 --> 01:09:53.275 But the, the courses, Bud's in particular, um, SWCC is somewhat similar. 01:09:53.275 --> 01:09:58.785 It's modeled after Bud's, um, relies pretty heavily on just. 01:09:59.285 --> 01:10:05.415 Physical brutality and and physical perseverance and those can skew 01:10:05.425 --> 01:10:11.325 more towards sociopathic types or or people that are very very good 01:10:11.325 --> 01:10:14.005 at compartmentalizing for a short amount of time relatively short amount 01:10:14.005 --> 01:10:21.050 of time and it does not Emphasize social dynamics for the most part, 01:10:21.150 --> 01:10:25.310 and often not in a very positive way when there are social dynamics. 01:10:25.310 --> 01:10:30.170 Like there are things in say buds where there's a lot of shuffling, um, people 01:10:30.170 --> 01:10:34.700 trying to game the system and get into the right boat crews and put the perceived 01:10:34.710 --> 01:10:37.820 weaker people into these boat crews or put the stronger people into their boat crews. 01:10:37.820 --> 01:10:41.170 Like there's a lot of like social shuffling in kind of a Lord of the 01:10:41.170 --> 01:10:47.290 flies way, um, but not in the way that say SF special forces selection. 01:10:47.575 --> 01:10:51.535 Emphasizes like sociability and group dynamics and your ability to communicate 01:10:51.885 --> 01:10:55.295 as a leader and and they put a lot more emphasis on peer reviews And 01:10:55.305 --> 01:10:59.845 things like that where they tend to get people through who are a little more 01:11:00.405 --> 01:11:04.555 emotionally balanced where some of the programs that rely more exclusively 01:11:04.555 --> 01:11:07.285 on brutality as a Selection criteria. 01:11:07.755 --> 01:11:13.735 Um, some, some level of sociopathy is helpful in those, and that doesn't even 01:11:14.605 --> 01:11:16.315 necessarily mean that it's a bad thing. 01:11:16.325 --> 01:11:20.285 Like you can, like you can have that personality type, which is basically 01:11:20.285 --> 01:11:23.515 the ability to withdraw your emotions from a situation until it's over. 01:11:24.025 --> 01:11:26.274 Um, and, and. 01:11:26.465 --> 01:11:27.165 Do pretty well. 01:11:27.175 --> 01:11:32.165 Like you also see that in surgeons, uh, in trauma medics in executives. 01:11:32.165 --> 01:11:32.515 Yeah. 01:11:32.995 --> 01:11:33.295 Yeah. 01:11:33.295 --> 01:11:37.915 Where like some level of psychopathy or sociopathy can 01:11:37.915 --> 01:11:41.535 be an adaptive or beneficial personality type in those settings. 01:11:41.535 --> 01:11:45.605 Like if you're a trauma surgeon and you're taking, like, you're working 01:11:45.605 --> 01:11:48.575 on like a gunshot wound and you're covered in blood, like if you allow 01:11:49.075 --> 01:11:52.605 the emotional stress or the emotional implications of that situation, like 01:11:52.645 --> 01:11:57.500 you just saw this Like wounded person's loved one hand them off to an ambulance 01:11:57.500 --> 01:12:00.910 or like, you know, if you're a trauma medic, that might be what you're seeing. 01:12:01.440 --> 01:12:07.060 Um, if you allow that to cloud your decision making or stress you out 01:12:07.060 --> 01:12:10.030 so much that you can't think well and do your job and keep your hands 01:12:10.040 --> 01:12:12.670 steady while you're doing a surgery, like you're not going to do your job 01:12:12.670 --> 01:12:14.000 well, or you're going to burn out. 01:12:14.190 --> 01:12:15.960 Um, a lot of those jobs. 01:12:16.495 --> 01:12:20.295 are very prone to vicarious trauma, where you start to absorb the 01:12:20.295 --> 01:12:22.835 weight of the trauma that you're processing and dealing with. 01:12:23.195 --> 01:12:27.155 And if you can't just shut that off and turn it away, same with, you know, trauma 01:12:27.155 --> 01:12:30.105 work or if you're some kind of social worker dealing with that kind of thing, 01:12:30.105 --> 01:12:35.054 if you're in law enforcement dealing with the worst parts of society, if you can't. 01:12:35.405 --> 01:12:40.395 Set that aside, like if you're an overly empathic, like warm empathy type person, 01:12:40.835 --> 01:12:43.655 like you're gonna start carrying that weight and it's gonna break you down. 01:12:45.225 --> 01:12:50.185 So, so some level of what you could term sociopathy or psychopathy can be an 01:12:50.185 --> 01:12:54.435 adaptive thing in those cases where people are able to go emotionally cold and just 01:12:54.445 --> 01:12:58.125 do the things they have to do to manage the situation effectively until it's over. 01:12:59.705 --> 01:13:04.550 Problems arise when that personality You know, and then that person doesn't 01:13:04.550 --> 01:13:07.630 have a good home life, isn't good with friends, you know, like they're 01:13:07.960 --> 01:13:11.290 just not a happy person or not enough, not a functioning person in society. 01:13:11.290 --> 01:13:16.470 But the ones who are good at it can basically turn that switch off and on 01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:19.394 and do what they need to do when they have to, and then they can be, you know. 01:13:19.885 --> 01:13:21.525 You know, a warm person outside of that. 01:13:21.535 --> 01:13:23.805 Travis Bader: So when you say turn off, would that be where, when you 01:13:23.805 --> 01:13:26.745 mentioned before having somebody sit with their emotions without 01:13:27.095 --> 01:13:31.515 suppression or avoidance, would that be part of the turn off process? 01:13:33.335 --> 01:13:34.365 Craig Weller: Yeah, afterward. 01:13:34.375 --> 01:13:34.735 Okay. 01:13:34.835 --> 01:13:37.985 So if you think of the active coping thing, like maybe in the middle of 01:13:37.985 --> 01:13:41.075 a trauma incident, you know, there's blood spurting out of an artery. 01:13:41.515 --> 01:13:44.625 People are screaming, you just have to go cold and follow the checklist. 01:13:44.645 --> 01:13:48.870 Like trauma is basically following a checklist of, Stop the bleeding, start 01:13:48.870 --> 01:13:52.220 the breathing, plug the holes, package for transport, you just, you just do 01:13:52.220 --> 01:13:58.090 that cold, but then afterward, you should be able to emotionally process that and 01:13:58.090 --> 01:14:02.130 sit with it and be okay with it, or, you know, make yourself as okay with it 01:14:02.130 --> 01:14:07.680 as you can be, um, because if you cope with that after the fact, in what should 01:14:07.690 --> 01:14:11.720 be like the, the restful or restorative moments where you're recovering from, um, 01:14:11.995 --> 01:14:13.605 The stresses that you just went through. 01:14:13.605 --> 01:14:20.095 Like if you still have to rely predominantly on suppression and avoidance 01:14:20.385 --> 01:14:25.815 as your coping mechanism in those non threatening, non time pressured restful 01:14:25.815 --> 01:14:30.305 moments, um, then you're going to end up carrying a lot of baggage and you're 01:14:30.305 --> 01:14:35.615 going to be incapable of dealing with the, the fallout of that over time. 01:14:35.765 --> 01:14:39.875 Travis Bader: How would somebody, or how would you coach people to be able to sit. 01:14:40.510 --> 01:14:42.740 With those emotions without suppression or avoidance. 01:14:42.740 --> 01:14:46.130 And is that where these somatic experiences that people talk 01:14:46.140 --> 01:14:49.140 about are allowed to process. 01:14:50.760 --> 01:14:54.310 Craig Weller: Yeah, actually, something like the trauma releasing exercises, 01:14:54.550 --> 01:14:59.150 uh, can be really useful for that, um, where there is a physical component 01:14:59.660 --> 01:15:02.700 to processing and releasing trauma. 01:15:02.780 --> 01:15:06.800 Um, some people will use exercise for that if they can also maintain 01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.390 some sort of like internal awareness of what they're doing. 01:15:09.480 --> 01:15:13.210 Um, there's a psych that we work with, a Canadian named Dr. 01:15:13.240 --> 01:15:17.410 Krista Scott Dixon, who, she works with a lot of our clients and she 01:15:17.910 --> 01:15:19.520 has them go through some of those. 01:15:19.845 --> 01:15:23.205 Kinds of things like trauma releasing exercises, which generally just 01:15:23.205 --> 01:15:27.765 involve like shaking or moving um allowing yourself to kind of 01:15:27.765 --> 01:15:33.090 like physically Um, I guess trauma would be the way to phrase it. 01:15:33.530 --> 01:15:35.220 It's something you'll see animals do as well. 01:15:35.270 --> 01:15:39.030 Um, you can find YouTube videos of, say, like a gazelle getting 01:15:39.030 --> 01:15:40.060 taken down by a cheetah. 01:15:40.060 --> 01:15:43.780 There's several of these where, for whatever reason, the animal still lives. 01:15:43.780 --> 01:15:46.150 They go completely, like, deeply parasympathetic. 01:15:46.210 --> 01:15:51.020 Still, like, that full trauma response where they're barely conscious, 01:15:51.520 --> 01:15:53.940 um, and then the threat goes away. 01:15:53.980 --> 01:15:56.750 I think in one of the videos like another predator chases off the cheetah 01:15:56.760 --> 01:15:59.240 and the gazelle lays there for a minute and then you see him start doing like 01:15:59.250 --> 01:16:03.530 this really deep breathing, like, like pumping their ribcage and then they 01:16:03.530 --> 01:16:07.900 start like this full body tremor shaking, like kind of looks like a seizure. 01:16:08.065 --> 01:16:11.715 And then they, they slowly get up and they shake while they're standing and 01:16:11.715 --> 01:16:13.605 then they're good and they run away. 01:16:14.155 --> 01:16:17.555 Um, but that's like a physiological means of processing trauma 01:16:17.555 --> 01:16:19.235 and humans do that as well. 01:16:19.245 --> 01:16:21.185 Like mammals generally do it. 01:16:21.705 --> 01:16:22.825 So there's that component. 01:16:22.995 --> 01:16:27.165 Um, and then I think the other component, which is some of 01:16:27.165 --> 01:16:28.135 this gets outside of my depth. 01:16:28.135 --> 01:16:30.135 This is where we often refer to an actual site. 01:16:30.865 --> 01:16:33.895 Um, but the other side of it is, I think. 01:16:35.015 --> 01:16:41.915 Uh, being able to just articulate name and allow or accept your emotional state 01:16:41.955 --> 01:16:44.165 as it passes or as it works through you. 01:16:44.665 --> 01:16:48.385 Um, one of the things that we've found with, with people that can be really 01:16:48.385 --> 01:16:55.225 helpful is, uh, the ability to identify a broad range of emotional experiences. 01:16:56.025 --> 01:17:00.875 Um, a lot of people, the people Need this the most are often really 01:17:00.875 --> 01:17:04.845 limited in the types of emotions that they're able to feel and describe They 01:17:04.845 --> 01:17:07.585 basically have angry or hurt or sad. 01:17:08.055 --> 01:17:08.445 Travis Bader: Yes, 01:17:08.505 --> 01:17:09.715 Craig Weller: and and that's it. 01:17:10.205 --> 01:17:13.075 But you can google like there's an emotion wheel There's a bunch of versions 01:17:13.085 --> 01:17:18.345 of them where maybe you're frustrated annoyed irritated There's all these 01:17:18.345 --> 01:17:22.520 different gradations of emotions that we can experience and and one of the 01:17:22.530 --> 01:17:28.140 things that we'll have people work on is just uh to be able to more accurately 01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:33.330 identify The emotion that you're feeling to not even do anything about it. 01:17:33.330 --> 01:17:38.510 Just sit with it recognize it and understand it and try to uh connect it 01:17:38.510 --> 01:17:42.024 to the physical sensations in your body because most emotions have a physical 01:17:42.095 --> 01:17:43.865 physical component of some sort. 01:17:44.295 --> 01:17:47.455 You might feel like a warm burning sensation in your stomach, or you might 01:17:47.455 --> 01:17:49.695 feel flushing in your face or whatever. 01:17:50.255 --> 01:17:56.905 Um, and if you can learn to link those physical sensations to the felt emotions, 01:17:57.355 --> 01:18:01.335 um, then you'll usually have a better vocabulary of emotions at your disposal. 01:18:01.725 --> 01:18:07.205 And you're able to kind of calmly sit with them and just allow them 01:18:07.205 --> 01:18:10.225 to be until they go away, until they work their way through. 01:18:10.425 --> 01:18:14.515 And in a lot of cases, you, if you're someone who's dealing with, you know, 01:18:14.515 --> 01:18:18.715 like your job involves trauma or something like that, um, or you're just 01:18:18.715 --> 01:18:22.165 dealing with like a highly stressful work environment or one of those things, 01:18:22.725 --> 01:18:27.015 working with a pro, like working with an actual psych is a useful thing to 01:18:27.015 --> 01:18:28.775 do to help you navigate that process. 01:18:28.775 --> 01:18:31.085 It's, you can think of it as just having another coach. 01:18:31.235 --> 01:18:34.205 Um, but, but we've been integrating that a lot more into 01:18:34.665 --> 01:18:35.935 the work we do with our clients. 01:18:35.935 --> 01:18:37.315 We're working with. 01:18:37.720 --> 01:18:44.500 Like an actual PhD psych is part of their, um, like training process to just sort 01:18:44.500 --> 01:18:46.210 out whatever it is they need to sort out. 01:18:46.310 --> 01:18:49.720 And then we try to have that kind of person available for 01:18:49.720 --> 01:18:51.180 the active or operational guys. 01:18:51.190 --> 01:18:53.240 A lot of the commands have them on staff now anyway. 01:18:53.330 --> 01:18:58.770 Um, but for the ones that don't, uh, we can make referrals to the people. 01:18:59.040 --> 01:19:01.230 You know, to people who can help them and work with them. 01:19:01.460 --> 01:19:05.370 And they're people that, that, that get them, you know, 01:19:05.440 --> 01:19:06.530 that makes a big difference. 01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:09.840 Like I have a friend who's yeah, I have a friend who's a psych who 01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:11.090 works with a lot of soft guys. 01:19:11.140 --> 01:19:13.820 Um, and he's like, most of these people won't do a therapy session, 01:19:14.130 --> 01:19:15.140 but they will go shooting. 01:19:15.540 --> 01:19:16.560 So I'll go shooting with them. 01:19:16.630 --> 01:19:19.640 And then we'll, we're like loading rounds into a magazine or something. 01:19:19.640 --> 01:19:21.670 Like we're just sitting there in the idle moments. 01:19:21.670 --> 01:19:24.645 He'll start chitchatting with them and he'll draw them out and, you know, Get 01:19:24.645 --> 01:19:28.435 them to talk about the things they need to talk about, um, but he does it in a 01:19:28.435 --> 01:19:34.705 way that is not, like, he, he approaches them from where they are, like, you know, 01:19:34.705 --> 01:19:39.974 like, as kind of one of them, and, uh, he understands them, like, he gets, you know, 01:19:40.425 --> 01:19:41.715 Who they are, where they're coming from. 01:19:41.725 --> 01:19:43.744 And he's not annoying about it. 01:19:43.745 --> 01:19:44.375 And it works really well. 01:19:44.385 --> 01:19:44.645 I've 01:19:44.645 --> 01:19:48.725 Travis Bader: been asked to speak with a, uh, a group of, um, aspiring 01:19:48.725 --> 01:19:53.245 psychologists, uh, at a university in, in the States of California. 01:19:53.245 --> 01:19:59.629 Actually, I'll be doing a web chat with them next Monday and, uh, uh, yeah. 01:19:59.960 --> 01:20:02.730 The, the teacher reached out to me and we're talking 01:20:02.730 --> 01:20:03.690 about a few different things. 01:20:03.690 --> 01:20:06.900 And I said, well, I don't know, one of the areas that I might be able to 01:20:06.900 --> 01:20:11.090 bring value in having seen different strengths from an early age, being 01:20:11.090 --> 01:20:16.260 diagnosed with high level ADHD and all the fun stuff that goes with that. 01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:23.330 Is the compatibility of the individual who's going to be dealing with the, both 01:20:23.330 --> 01:20:28.690 the compatibility of the, the talk doc in the, uh, in the patient, because I took 01:20:28.690 --> 01:20:30.510 it from a very oppositional standpoint. 01:20:30.700 --> 01:20:31.910 I didn't want to tell anything. 01:20:31.910 --> 01:20:35.870 And I was, I looked at each interaction as a game and it wasn't until I 01:20:35.870 --> 01:20:39.540 found one person or one person found me who was somewhat compatible 01:20:39.540 --> 01:20:40.950 that I actually learned something. 01:20:41.830 --> 01:20:46.030 And I spent so many years actively trying to fight learning anything or bettering 01:20:46.030 --> 01:20:51.760 myself because I viewed it as a, um, uh, as something to be oppositional 01:20:51.760 --> 01:20:53.070 about, I don't need this help. 01:20:53.340 --> 01:20:58.680 So when you say finding that compatibility scale, I think that's massive. 01:20:58.680 --> 01:21:01.170 And that's one of the things I'm going to be talking about with them next week too. 01:21:03.570 --> 01:21:04.680 Craig Weller: Yeah, it's, it's big. 01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:08.495 I think for anyone who's, you know, We actually have messages from people who 01:21:08.495 --> 01:21:13.965 are going to go be attached to a soft unit, like as a psych, as a, like a human 01:21:13.965 --> 01:21:19.449 performance person, as a nutritionist, you know, and one of the key messages. 01:21:19.820 --> 01:21:23.970 Keith pieces of advice that we give them based on, you know, like how 01:21:23.970 --> 01:21:28.380 we've experienced it and how our clients experience it is to live the 01:21:28.380 --> 01:21:31.240 lives that these people have, to some extent, like try to understand their 01:21:31.240 --> 01:21:33.730 experiences and their, um, perspective. 01:21:33.730 --> 01:21:37.410 So like we did an interview with a guy who works with a special forces 01:21:37.410 --> 01:21:42.350 unit, uh, currently stationed in Germany and he would go and do, he's 01:21:42.360 --> 01:21:45.190 like their performance guy, strength coach, and he would go and do their 01:21:45.190 --> 01:21:47.690 land nav training with them and. 01:21:47.825 --> 01:21:52.785 You know, do the rocks, do the heavy work, like walking around, sleeping in the 01:21:52.785 --> 01:21:56.555 rain, sleeping on the ground for multiple days, not eating hot food for a while. 01:21:56.555 --> 01:22:00.885 Like just to, just to understand how much their job sucks. 01:22:01.785 --> 01:22:05.365 Um, and to kind of show them that. 01:22:05.925 --> 01:22:10.905 He's willing to be there alongside them or experience the same, at least some of 01:22:10.905 --> 01:22:12.865 the same things that they experienced. 01:22:12.865 --> 01:22:16.445 And I think that's one of the reasons he does well as a coach. 01:22:16.485 --> 01:22:20.025 Um, if you look at like the engagement rates that he has and the number of 01:22:20.025 --> 01:22:23.875 guys that choose to work with him, it's much higher than it is at a lot 01:22:23.875 --> 01:22:26.805 of other commands where they're kind of in their own box and they're like, 01:22:26.825 --> 01:22:31.535 you go do your silly thing, being cold and wet and, uh, we'll see you later. 01:22:32.415 --> 01:22:34.335 And, uh, a lot of those. 01:22:34.780 --> 01:22:38.490 Those people, those consultants or whatever you'd call them, professionals 01:22:38.490 --> 01:22:42.230 don't have nearly as much engagement because in any, any of these units, it's 01:22:42.230 --> 01:22:45.800 all voluntary, whether they work with the trainer, the psych, the nutritionist, 01:22:46.220 --> 01:22:49.500 and if they don't feel like that person gets them and understands them, 01:22:49.520 --> 01:22:51.120 they're not going to work with them. 01:22:51.200 --> 01:22:52.710 And in a lot of cases they don't. 01:22:54.750 --> 01:22:57.620 Travis Bader: Um, you talked about the gazelle there and it seems like 01:22:57.620 --> 01:23:02.310 it kind of brought us full circle to, excuse me, you talked about the gazelle 01:23:02.310 --> 01:23:05.430 there and it feels like it brought us full circle to something that. 01:23:05.765 --> 01:23:09.345 We were talking about at the beginning, which was buck fever and how to deal 01:23:09.345 --> 01:23:14.855 with something like this, the anxiety and the physiological response to, 01:23:15.225 --> 01:23:17.375 uh, the excitement or the stress. 01:23:17.805 --> 01:23:22.465 Uh, and even if people don't hunt, I'm sure that same sort of thing can 01:23:22.465 --> 01:23:27.265 be applied to tests or performance anxiety, or I should imagine 01:23:27.265 --> 01:23:30.565 there's going to be some form of a similarity between these things. 01:23:31.065 --> 01:23:34.875 Um, how, how would you suggest that somebody approach? 01:23:39.405 --> 01:23:45.185 Craig Weller: So if you compare the shooting skills of a special operator 01:23:45.245 --> 01:23:52.665 to a conventional person who has a good deal, less training, um, one of the main 01:23:52.675 --> 01:23:56.890 variables, or one of the main things that makes a special operator, Good at shooting 01:23:57.380 --> 01:24:00.530 isn't the peak of their performance. 01:24:00.530 --> 01:24:02.810 Like obviously they're accurate and they're good at shooting. 01:24:03.360 --> 01:24:07.560 Um, but it's how little they degrade under stress. 01:24:07.890 --> 01:24:14.725 Um, like in a combat situation or shooting in general, uh, It's like 01:24:15.215 --> 01:24:19.275 problems happen or skill is expressed under stress and the people who are the 01:24:19.275 --> 01:24:22.665 best at it just don't degrade because in those scenarios, people usually like 01:24:22.915 --> 01:24:26.565 their shot groups go from the size of a soda can to the size of a Frisbee. 01:24:26.565 --> 01:24:28.655 Uh, it expands outward. 01:24:28.675 --> 01:24:31.895 You get shaky, you make small mistakes, you do dumb things repeatedly. 01:24:31.935 --> 01:24:35.515 Um, basically stress turns your brain off and. 01:24:35.835 --> 01:24:41.085 To a lesser extent than in a combat setting, hopefully you're, you're seeing 01:24:41.085 --> 01:24:46.145 that in like a buck fever scenario where a lot of the fundamental motor 01:24:46.145 --> 01:24:50.735 skills that a person has are suddenly less available or less reliable. 01:24:51.135 --> 01:24:53.485 And they're losing their cognitive function. 01:24:53.495 --> 01:24:57.535 Like they're losing their executive function or their ability to process 01:24:57.535 --> 01:25:01.195 what's happening and kind of have a, like a meta perspective, like 01:25:01.195 --> 01:25:05.025 their, their ability to see what's happening and do something about it. 01:25:05.035 --> 01:25:07.995 They get more lost in the moment and on repeatedly looping a 01:25:07.995 --> 01:25:09.265 behavior or something like that. 01:25:09.795 --> 01:25:13.955 Um, so there are two aspects to that. 01:25:14.115 --> 01:25:19.665 Um, one of them is just improving all of these fundamental skills, uh, uh, 01:25:19.725 --> 01:25:22.965 to a high enough level of skill that they can be automated and relied upon. 01:25:22.965 --> 01:25:26.985 So we talked earlier about how we all kind of arbitrarily relegate a 01:25:26.985 --> 01:25:29.015 skill to good enough at some point. 01:25:29.025 --> 01:25:31.365 And at that point, we no longer really become better at it. 01:25:31.825 --> 01:25:37.055 So one of the first steps here is to just become a really good shooter 01:25:37.095 --> 01:25:41.315 and all of the other skills that are involved in hunting, which you 01:25:41.345 --> 01:25:45.430 probably know better than I do, um, I'm assuming camouflage stillness, 01:25:45.430 --> 01:25:47.340 not making noise, that kind of stuff. 01:25:47.910 --> 01:25:53.020 Um, is knowing these things well enough that you can automate them and they're 01:25:53.020 --> 01:25:54.120 good enough to get the job done. 01:25:54.130 --> 01:25:54.871 Like they're, they're. 01:25:55.470 --> 01:25:56.390 They're where they need to be. 01:25:56.390 --> 01:25:59.230 And they can also degrade a little and they're still reliable. 01:25:59.540 --> 01:26:02.170 So that's also like fundamental trigger control, all your 01:26:02.170 --> 01:26:03.620 safety kind of stuff as well. 01:26:03.630 --> 01:26:07.660 Like that's where a lot of problems happen too, is you haven't 01:26:07.670 --> 01:26:09.040 practiced those kinds of things. 01:26:09.040 --> 01:26:11.670 And now people are accidentally shooting themselves in the head underwater. 01:26:12.420 --> 01:26:17.390 Um, so the other side of that, once you have developed a skill well enough 01:26:17.400 --> 01:26:23.730 that it can be automated at a high level, um, is, you To go through a 01:26:23.730 --> 01:26:27.640 process called stress inoculation or stress inoculation training, where 01:26:27.650 --> 01:26:33.400 you're not really improving the peak of the skill, but you're improving 01:26:33.400 --> 01:26:37.750 your ability to retain and recall or execute that skill under stress. 01:26:38.070 --> 01:26:40.900 So you're becoming a little more like that special operator who's shot 01:26:40.910 --> 01:26:45.050 group doesn't really open up even when their heart rate is pounding, even 01:26:45.050 --> 01:26:47.590 when they're stressed out and there's a whole bunch of things to process. 01:26:48.100 --> 01:26:49.750 Um, there are. 01:26:50.015 --> 01:26:53.365 A lot of other components to that as well, it kind of supporting things 01:26:53.365 --> 01:26:56.665 like just your aerobic fitness is a supporting factor in that because it 01:26:56.665 --> 01:26:58.555 helps you affect your cognitive function. 01:26:59.075 --> 01:27:05.075 Um, but primarily you want to start integrating stress inoculation 01:27:05.095 --> 01:27:11.015 into your training by understanding and managing your stress response. 01:27:11.365 --> 01:27:13.545 Well, executing a skill. 01:27:13.905 --> 01:27:20.885 So you go from say, shooting on a static range to introducing physical, or to 01:27:20.885 --> 01:27:25.735 the extent you can a little bit of emotional stress and your, your goals 01:27:25.745 --> 01:27:30.895 as you do that are to recognize and understand your own stress responses. 01:27:31.195 --> 01:27:33.045 So we go back to the stuff we talked about with like. 01:27:33.165 --> 01:27:36.735 The emotions wheel and understanding like the physical symptoms of a given emotion. 01:27:37.625 --> 01:27:40.915 In this case, you're experiencing, you could just tag it as buck fever, but 01:27:40.915 --> 01:27:43.125 you're also feeling some kind of pressure. 01:27:43.125 --> 01:27:47.575 Like you, you try to, um, identify the physical sensations of what 01:27:47.575 --> 01:27:48.625 it is that you're experiencing. 01:27:48.635 --> 01:27:51.425 So you recognize that your heart rate is racing. 01:27:51.425 --> 01:27:53.465 You can hear your pulse pounding in your ears. 01:27:53.465 --> 01:27:55.045 You feel your blood pressure go up. 01:27:55.045 --> 01:27:56.275 You feel your chest rising. 01:27:56.275 --> 01:27:57.595 You feel sweaty palms. 01:27:57.945 --> 01:27:59.095 You feel all these things like. 01:27:59.155 --> 01:28:04.275 And the better you get at that, the more rapidly you'll be able to recognize those, 01:28:04.275 --> 01:28:07.765 or the earlier in the process, you'll be able to recognize them, which means 01:28:08.175 --> 01:28:12.595 the earlier you'll be able to start to mitigate them or do something about them. 01:28:12.935 --> 01:28:18.135 So once you can recognize the patterns of your own stress response, um, 01:28:18.595 --> 01:28:23.050 you want, and you learn to control them or learn to like, Kind of 01:28:23.050 --> 01:28:24.180 get ahead of them a little bit. 01:28:24.750 --> 01:28:29.130 Um, you want to start integrating strategies to help mitigate them, which 01:28:29.150 --> 01:28:34.140 usually come down to some kind of, uh, verbal mantra, a physical ritual. 01:28:34.140 --> 01:28:37.320 Like maybe you go through the same thing in checking your safety, 01:28:37.320 --> 01:28:41.150 checking your magazine, checking your whatever, doing, uh, maybe you're 01:28:41.160 --> 01:28:42.580 checking distance on your scope. 01:28:42.670 --> 01:28:46.228 Um, I haven't been hunting since I was a kid, so I don't know all these 01:28:46.228 --> 01:28:49.730 things that well, um, but you want to, you want to learn like the little 01:28:49.730 --> 01:28:51.170 physical rituals you're going to follow. 01:28:51.525 --> 01:28:56.695 Um, and then the things that you're going to do to specifically mitigate or regulate 01:28:56.695 --> 01:28:59.815 your stress response, which often comes down to breathing and your thoughts. 01:29:00.215 --> 01:29:03.755 So, thoughts make feelings and whatever happens in our minds is 01:29:03.755 --> 01:29:05.045 going to happen in our bloodstream. 01:29:05.435 --> 01:29:09.745 So, identify Again, it's going to be pretty individual, but identify 01:29:09.745 --> 01:29:12.785 whatever thoughts are present in your mind when you're in that 01:29:12.785 --> 01:29:16.125 stressful moment, when you're about to make this high pressure shot. 01:29:16.515 --> 01:29:18.385 Um, are you worried about missing? 01:29:18.395 --> 01:29:20.515 Are you worried about you just wasted this entire trip? 01:29:20.565 --> 01:29:23.935 Are you worried about wounding the animal, having to chase it down? 01:29:23.945 --> 01:29:26.295 Which I remember having to do once when I was a kid, and I 01:29:26.295 --> 01:29:27.515 swore to never do that again. 01:29:28.155 --> 01:29:33.995 Um, all of those things, learn to identify those things and then. 01:29:34.310 --> 01:29:36.270 And then do something about them. 01:29:36.280 --> 01:29:40.810 So depending on what the specific thought is, learn how to redirect 01:29:40.810 --> 01:29:41.940 that or recalibrate that. 01:29:41.950 --> 01:29:47.020 So if you're looping negative thoughts, like in yourself, talk about, I'm going 01:29:47.020 --> 01:29:48.070 to miss, I'm going to screw this up. 01:29:48.070 --> 01:29:48.970 I'm going to waste this trip. 01:29:48.970 --> 01:29:50.030 I'm going to embarrass myself. 01:29:50.400 --> 01:29:53.770 Um, learn how to replace those thoughts because we can't really 01:29:53.780 --> 01:29:57.090 attend to more than one stream of conscious thought at a time. 01:29:57.510 --> 01:30:01.650 So if you can have something else where you recognize that. 01:30:02.035 --> 01:30:06.155 Um, that stream of thoughts or that stream of self talk is probably preceded 01:30:06.155 --> 01:30:08.065 by some kind of physical symptom. 01:30:08.195 --> 01:30:10.955 Um, you know, like the sweaty palms, erasing heart rate, whatever your 01:30:10.955 --> 01:30:14.385 thing is, you can get ahead of it a little bit and you can start to 01:30:14.385 --> 01:30:19.105 replace those thoughts that negative self talk spiral with something else. 01:30:19.545 --> 01:30:23.365 Um, in my case, like in selection, I would often just use song 01:30:23.365 --> 01:30:25.555 lyrics or a short little mantra. 01:30:26.005 --> 01:30:28.535 Um, you can come up with whatever. 01:30:29.020 --> 01:30:33.540 Small ritual or set of self talk helps you to stay focused and 01:30:33.540 --> 01:30:37.471 avoid that negative like doom loop of, I'm going to screw this up. 01:30:37.471 --> 01:30:38.110 I'm nervous. 01:30:38.110 --> 01:30:38.800 What am I doing? 01:30:38.860 --> 01:30:39.740 You know, kind of thing. 01:30:40.240 --> 01:30:44.800 Um, or it may be the stress response is so strong that you're not even 01:30:44.800 --> 01:30:46.250 sure what's happening in your head. 01:30:46.250 --> 01:30:49.610 Like you've kind of, you've moved fully through the spectrum into more 01:30:49.610 --> 01:30:52.180 of a parasympathetic shutdown state. 01:30:52.220 --> 01:30:55.260 In which case you need to kind of bring yourself back out of that and get a 01:30:55.260 --> 01:30:57.210 little more like active and functional. 01:30:57.535 --> 01:31:00.355 Um, those are the people who have a freezing response. 01:31:00.495 --> 01:31:03.495 So, you know, like you see somebody who's about to take that shot and 01:31:03.495 --> 01:31:06.805 suddenly they're just deer in headlights and, and nothing's really happening. 01:31:07.415 --> 01:31:10.375 Um, that's the full on, on freezing response. 01:31:10.375 --> 01:31:12.875 And you have to bring those people back, which is often going to 01:31:12.935 --> 01:31:16.185 start with breathing because, uh, thinking isn't working out. 01:31:18.045 --> 01:31:20.655 So at that moment, you want to lock them into something that's more 01:31:20.655 --> 01:31:24.785 physiological, which is going to be like retaining a deep conscious 01:31:24.795 --> 01:31:30.155 breathing, and like good exhales, and, and managing something physically that 01:31:30.155 --> 01:31:34.640 will hopefully then carry over into, um, Better regulating your autonomic 01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:36.270 nervous system and your thoughts. 01:31:36.860 --> 01:31:42.170 Um, there's breathing is, is one of the most common things that is 01:31:42.170 --> 01:31:45.870 helpful for that alongside like the motor skill rituals of, you know, 01:31:45.870 --> 01:31:48.400 checking safety, checking magazine, checking all the basic stuff. 01:31:48.860 --> 01:31:52.920 Uh, if you, if you've ritualized doing all of that, doing all of the steps 01:31:52.920 --> 01:31:56.110 that lead you toward making an effective shot, knowing, you know, like knowing 01:31:56.110 --> 01:31:58.910 what's behind your target, knowing what's in front of your target, knowing 01:31:58.910 --> 01:32:00.430 who's behind you, all of those things. 01:32:00.705 --> 01:32:06.245 Um, like if you ritualize all of those, you can also more or less let them go and 01:32:06.245 --> 01:32:10.145 know that those are happening and that even though you're kind of stressed out 01:32:10.155 --> 01:32:13.585 and on autopilot, they're happening in a way that they're supposed to happen. 01:32:13.585 --> 01:32:15.745 So that comes down to your training. 01:32:16.505 --> 01:32:19.405 Um, so basically you're learning to recognize your stress responses. 01:32:19.415 --> 01:32:21.705 You're learning to do something about your stress responses. 01:32:21.995 --> 01:32:25.475 And then once you're doing that, you're going to gradually increase the difficulty 01:32:25.505 --> 01:32:28.535 of that or the magnitude of the stressor. 01:32:28.945 --> 01:32:29.665 So. 01:32:30.015 --> 01:32:34.055 With, with, say you have a given person where just having them run 01:32:34.195 --> 01:32:37.335 a few hundred meters of sprints up and down the range before they go 01:32:37.335 --> 01:32:40.215 and shoot is enough that they're going to completely throw the shot. 01:32:40.745 --> 01:32:44.595 Um, in that case, you'll, you'll grade the magnitude of 01:32:44.595 --> 01:32:46.925 the stressor to a shorter run. 01:32:46.995 --> 01:32:48.875 Maybe they run 50 meters or a hundred meters. 01:32:49.185 --> 01:32:53.285 It's just enough that it makes it hard for them to make that shot, 01:32:53.675 --> 01:32:55.565 but it's still generally manageable. 01:32:55.615 --> 01:32:57.775 And that's one of the key things. 01:32:58.145 --> 01:33:02.415 To bring into this is, um, you want to earn success. 01:33:02.675 --> 01:33:04.495 You want to struggle, but succeed. 01:33:05.365 --> 01:33:10.235 So the magnitude of the stressor that you're adding in your training needs to 01:33:10.235 --> 01:33:15.475 be adjusted to the level of your skill and your ability to manage that stressor 01:33:15.475 --> 01:33:17.105 and still be generally successful. 01:33:17.505 --> 01:33:19.235 So if you just blow somebody up. 01:33:19.380 --> 01:33:23.260 And you have them go sprint a mile and you slap them five times in the face. 01:33:23.260 --> 01:33:26.450 And like you completely mess them up and they just can't function. 01:33:26.450 --> 01:33:27.780 They can't do this thing. 01:33:28.090 --> 01:33:29.310 Then they're not improving. 01:33:29.310 --> 01:33:29.930 They're not training. 01:33:29.930 --> 01:33:32.410 They're not like developing a useful skill set. 01:33:32.410 --> 01:33:34.480 So you need to adjust the magnitude of the stressor that you're 01:33:34.480 --> 01:33:38.870 imposing just to the level of earned success or desirable difficulty. 01:33:39.490 --> 01:33:44.500 Um, so like in a traditional weapons range, just physical stress is the easiest 01:33:44.500 --> 01:33:47.860 thing to add where you're just going to blow them up a little bit with sprints. 01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:53.200 You have them run 50 meters, 100 meters, whatever, to where the shot that they 01:33:53.200 --> 01:33:55.390 normally could make without a problem. 01:33:55.400 --> 01:33:58.100 Say it's a 200 meter shot with a scoped rifle. 01:33:58.630 --> 01:34:01.040 Um, now they've just. 01:34:01.310 --> 01:34:02.070 Finished sprinting. 01:34:02.070 --> 01:34:03.170 They just did some burpees. 01:34:03.180 --> 01:34:05.080 They've dropped down into position and now they're going 01:34:05.080 --> 01:34:06.560 to shoot and they're shaking. 01:34:06.560 --> 01:34:09.610 They're breathing hard They're their thoughts are a little more jumbled 01:34:09.620 --> 01:34:12.160 because they're stressed out and when your heart rate's really high sometimes 01:34:12.160 --> 01:34:18.080 cognitive function falls And now they still make that shot, but it was harder 01:34:18.120 --> 01:34:22.260 their shot group opened up just a little bit You practice that a few times. 01:34:22.300 --> 01:34:26.970 Maybe you're doing this over days and weeks as well But you just keep 01:34:27.330 --> 01:34:31.805 moving You The magnitude of the stressor, the things you add to make 01:34:31.815 --> 01:34:33.685 that stressor increasingly realistic. 01:34:33.685 --> 01:34:37.775 Like at some point you add their friends, mocking them from behind while they're 01:34:37.775 --> 01:34:41.985 doing it, you do whatever weird social pressure thing might be a factor. 01:34:42.385 --> 01:34:44.995 You teach them the specific strategies to mitigate that. 01:34:45.035 --> 01:34:48.475 Um, and then you just keep ramping it up, but you keep, you're 01:34:48.475 --> 01:34:50.375 continuously doing it to where. 01:34:50.770 --> 01:34:55.990 Each time you step up the stressor, their skill or their ability to mitigate that 01:34:55.990 --> 01:34:58.480 stressor has increased concurrently. 01:34:58.480 --> 01:35:02.040 So it's always getting just a little bit harder while they're getting just a little 01:35:02.040 --> 01:35:04.110 bit better at managing that hardness. 01:35:04.660 --> 01:35:08.450 And eventually you can physically wreck them. 01:35:09.050 --> 01:35:13.210 You can cause social stress by maybe they bet a hundred dollars on the shot. 01:35:13.400 --> 01:35:15.190 Uh, their friends are making fun of them. 01:35:15.570 --> 01:35:17.700 They're someone's squirting them with a. 01:35:17.950 --> 01:35:21.750 Water gun from, you know, like you're, you're adding all kinds of distractors. 01:35:22.120 --> 01:35:26.330 You put a dummy round in the rifle so that they, their first shot misfires, like you 01:35:26.360 --> 01:35:28.080 mess with them as much as you need to. 01:35:28.080 --> 01:35:32.140 And they still perform those motor skills effectively. 01:35:32.240 --> 01:35:37.170 Um, they're able to identify, recognize and manage their self talk 01:35:37.170 --> 01:35:39.510 so that, you know, if they get into that downward spiral of I'm going to 01:35:39.510 --> 01:35:41.600 screw this up, I'm gonna embarrass myself in front of my friends. 01:35:41.600 --> 01:35:43.350 I'm, I'm wasting my time. 01:35:43.360 --> 01:35:46.700 Like they're able to recognize that before it takes over and shut it down. 01:35:47.200 --> 01:35:47.910 Um, you just. 01:35:48.235 --> 01:35:51.065 Basically find all of these things that can go wrong. 01:35:51.135 --> 01:35:54.245 You identify how specifically they're going to go wrong with this individual. 01:35:54.255 --> 01:35:57.365 Like if it's in their self talk, if it's in their fundamental motor skills, 01:35:57.365 --> 01:36:02.125 if it's in whatever you give them strategies to mitigate that, and then you 01:36:02.155 --> 01:36:06.935 increase the magnitude of the stressor as their skill steps up concurrently. 01:36:07.435 --> 01:36:10.055 Um, that's basically how it happens in the military. 01:36:10.225 --> 01:36:12.285 We, we impose stressors in a different way. 01:36:12.285 --> 01:36:15.525 Like there's a lot more leeway in the military to torture people. 01:36:16.085 --> 01:36:17.965 But, uh, that's basically it. 01:36:18.305 --> 01:36:21.445 A lot of the reasons that people like special operators are really good at 01:36:21.445 --> 01:36:26.285 shooting is just because they've done basic things over and over and over 01:36:26.335 --> 01:36:27.865 under increasing levels of stress. 01:36:27.895 --> 01:36:31.765 And they've learned to manage their stress response while they were doing them. 01:36:31.865 --> 01:36:34.155 And eventually you get someone who's just kind of unflappable. 01:36:34.860 --> 01:36:36.950 No matter what's going on around them, like it's dark out, it's 01:36:36.950 --> 01:36:40.620 cold out, the wind is blowing, it's raining, your boots are full of sand, 01:36:41.080 --> 01:36:43.260 whatever it, none of it sways you. 01:36:43.420 --> 01:36:48.060 Um, but you have to do it in stages and you have to do it, um, where 01:36:48.060 --> 01:36:49.420 you're earning success each time. 01:36:49.440 --> 01:36:50.630 You can't just overwhelm someone. 01:36:50.630 --> 01:36:51.270 I really, 01:36:51.270 --> 01:36:54.500 Travis Bader: really appreciate that systematic approach in your 01:36:54.500 --> 01:36:57.490 answer, which matches the systematic approach that you take through 01:36:57.490 --> 01:36:58.910 your book, building the elite. 01:36:58.910 --> 01:36:59.230 Yeah. 01:36:59.425 --> 01:37:04.825 Uh, it just, it's a blueprint it's essentially from E to Z of what a 01:37:04.825 --> 01:37:09.605 person needs to do in order to be able to be the complete guide to 01:37:09.605 --> 01:37:11.315 building resilient, special operators. 01:37:11.315 --> 01:37:13.215 And I, it, it really is that. 01:37:13.525 --> 01:37:15.855 So we've, we've talked about a fair bit. 01:37:16.525 --> 01:37:17.925 Is there anything that we've missed? 01:37:17.925 --> 01:37:19.595 Is there anything that we should be talking about that 01:37:19.595 --> 01:37:20.835 we haven't talked about? 01:37:23.165 --> 01:37:24.355 Craig Weller: Hmm. 01:37:25.340 --> 01:37:27.030 We talked about stress inoculation. 01:37:27.030 --> 01:37:29.760 I think, uh, did we cover stages of motor learning kind of stuff? 01:37:29.770 --> 01:37:30.200 We didn't. 01:37:30.320 --> 01:37:30.650 No. 01:37:31.930 --> 01:37:32.450 Okay. 01:37:32.540 --> 01:37:37.450 So, so that ties in really It meshes with the stress inoculation concepts. 01:37:37.480 --> 01:37:40.870 Um, so we learn in a sequence. 01:37:41.340 --> 01:37:47.460 Um, if you remember, say, learning to type, um, any basic skills, 01:37:47.490 --> 01:37:48.670 like typing is a common one. 01:37:48.670 --> 01:37:49.800 That's where a lot of the research is at. 01:37:50.050 --> 01:37:53.500 When you first started typing, uh, you had a very high error rate. 01:37:53.530 --> 01:37:54.640 You made a lot of mistakes. 01:37:54.980 --> 01:37:59.655 It took up, All of your mental focus to just type a word out and you were 01:37:59.655 --> 01:38:03.645 probably very slow and deliberate like hunt and peck one letter at a time. 01:38:03.945 --> 01:38:05.805 You thought about the letter A, then you thought about the 01:38:05.805 --> 01:38:07.555 letter B, and you worked it out. 01:38:08.105 --> 01:38:11.335 Um, that's called the cognitive phase of learning. 01:38:11.625 --> 01:38:15.475 So you're, you're learning kind of the basic rules of how the thing works. 01:38:15.865 --> 01:38:20.365 And then you're learning the smallest possible pieces of how to put it together. 01:38:20.395 --> 01:38:24.255 So you can think of how that would happen in like learning to shoot as well. 01:38:24.715 --> 01:38:26.745 Like this is where the magazine goes. 01:38:26.805 --> 01:38:29.335 This is when it's, this is how you know that it's facing the right direction. 01:38:29.335 --> 01:38:30.135 This is a safety. 01:38:30.135 --> 01:38:33.595 These are the basic safety things, you know, like finger off trigger, 01:38:33.615 --> 01:38:35.525 all the kind of stuff that you have to know with a weapon. 01:38:36.025 --> 01:38:40.395 Um, and at first, when you give someone that it's very slow. 01:38:40.395 --> 01:38:40.455 Okay. 01:38:40.775 --> 01:38:42.975 Like they're all of their attention is on it. 01:38:43.455 --> 01:38:46.765 You are making the training environment. 01:38:47.455 --> 01:38:51.835 It's where, uh, you're setting it up so that a mistake is acceptable and safe. 01:38:52.305 --> 01:38:55.685 So at first someone's learning to handle a safe, like a clear and safe 01:38:55.705 --> 01:38:58.375 weapon when they're, when they're putting their hands on it, they're 01:38:58.375 --> 01:38:59.675 figuring out what the buttons do. 01:38:59.715 --> 01:39:01.445 They're learning not to put their finger on the trigger when they're not 01:39:01.445 --> 01:39:04.175 supposed to, so that if they make a mistake, because it's likely that they 01:39:04.175 --> 01:39:08.145 will, they're not going to Push around through something like they're not 01:39:08.145 --> 01:39:09.325 going to accidentally shoot someone. 01:39:09.905 --> 01:39:16.815 Um, as you go, as you start learning, you start to automate those things. 01:39:16.815 --> 01:39:18.695 They just become part of the process for you. 01:39:18.695 --> 01:39:21.955 And they're no longer as fully conscious. 01:39:21.955 --> 01:39:25.415 And you move into what's called the associative phase, which is 01:39:25.425 --> 01:39:28.175 where you start to see things in bigger chunks or patterns. 01:39:28.435 --> 01:39:32.955 So that's where the amount of cognitive focus comes down because 01:39:32.965 --> 01:39:34.605 some of those skills are automated. 01:39:34.605 --> 01:39:36.845 So when you're typing, you're maybe no longer. 01:39:36.865 --> 01:39:38.435 Um, And so, um, in the past, we were no longer going letter by letter, now you 01:39:38.455 --> 01:39:42.775 can type out an entire word or even entire sentence without really thinking about it. 01:39:42.775 --> 01:39:43.745 It just happens. 01:39:44.685 --> 01:39:47.695 And you can be distracted or you can think a little more. 01:39:47.695 --> 01:39:51.285 You can talk to someone for a second while you're typing without losing your spot. 01:39:51.825 --> 01:39:56.215 Um, you're putting together the bigger patterns and you're integrating things 01:39:56.255 --> 01:40:00.995 that you were previously doing one by one are now a bigger chunk of behaviors. 01:40:01.235 --> 01:40:05.415 So, the way a person You know, on holsters, their weapon puts 01:40:05.415 --> 01:40:09.355 a mag in all of that has their finger in the right place, weapons 01:40:09.355 --> 01:40:10.525 oriented in a safe direction. 01:40:10.525 --> 01:40:13.825 All of that just happens because they've drilled each single step 01:40:13.825 --> 01:40:15.315 of that a whole bunch of times. 01:40:15.315 --> 01:40:17.095 And now it's just one automated chunk. 01:40:17.615 --> 01:40:20.635 Um, and that's where you can also start adding more complexity. 01:40:20.635 --> 01:40:24.935 So now they're on holstering, loading, checking clearance, say if they're 01:40:24.935 --> 01:40:27.265 doing the things that they need to do, and it just happens in there. 01:40:27.265 --> 01:40:28.455 Now they're adding other steps. 01:40:28.455 --> 01:40:32.015 They're moving towards an obstacle or they're, they 01:40:32.015 --> 01:40:33.485 have multiple weapons, maybe. 01:40:33.755 --> 01:40:36.405 Um, they're, they're making it more complicated. 01:40:37.045 --> 01:40:39.385 That's the learning stage for the most part. 01:40:39.385 --> 01:40:43.455 That's where you're, you have a conscious feedback loop and you're trying to 01:40:43.465 --> 01:40:46.905 increase the number of things that you can automate at a high level of skill. 01:40:47.165 --> 01:40:52.795 So maybe you're simultaneously, you maybe have multiple targets, maybe you have 01:40:52.805 --> 01:40:55.145 dummy rounds or like deliberate failures. 01:40:55.145 --> 01:40:56.635 You're practicing failure drills. 01:40:56.635 --> 01:40:59.785 Like that's another big part of, I don't know how much it comes up in hunting, 01:40:59.785 --> 01:41:02.765 probably not as much, but like with military weapons training, you're You 01:41:02.765 --> 01:41:06.445 know, you're dealing with failures, you're dealing with misfires or stove pipes or 01:41:06.445 --> 01:41:10.525 whatever goes wrong so that you can very quickly handle it and just keep shooting. 01:41:10.535 --> 01:41:14.925 And the people who are really good at it, a misfire doesn't matter. 01:41:14.925 --> 01:41:16.675 It doesn't slow them down at all. 01:41:16.785 --> 01:41:20.535 Uh, where with novice, you know, like suddenly they push the magic 01:41:20.535 --> 01:41:23.525 button and nothing goes bang and they don't know what to do. 01:41:23.720 --> 01:41:24.490 And they're stuck. 01:41:24.940 --> 01:41:28.820 Um, but as you get better and better, you can handle more of those deviations. 01:41:28.820 --> 01:41:32.250 You can handle more disruptions and you're consciously working 01:41:32.250 --> 01:41:33.540 on all of those things. 01:41:33.540 --> 01:41:35.890 Like maybe you're working on specifics of your shot. 01:41:35.900 --> 01:41:40.320 So you're working on not anticipating recoil or milking the trigger or doing 01:41:40.320 --> 01:41:41.810 whatever thing you might mess up. 01:41:42.080 --> 01:41:43.600 And you're doing that with a feedback loop. 01:41:44.010 --> 01:41:48.440 So, you know, you're doing some kind of drill to know if you anticipated the 01:41:48.440 --> 01:41:52.820 recoil or if you milked the trigger or if you did whatever, um, and you're, 01:41:52.830 --> 01:41:54.030 you're getting repetitions of that. 01:41:54.030 --> 01:41:56.740 Like I did in the pool, like I was trying to bend my arm a 01:41:56.740 --> 01:41:58.020 certain way with each stroke. 01:41:58.195 --> 01:42:00.975 And if I did it wrong, some guy in a blue shirt would tap me on 01:42:00.975 --> 01:42:03.645 the top of the head and tell me I screwed it up and to do it better. 01:42:03.645 --> 01:42:05.305 And you do that in loops. 01:42:05.885 --> 01:42:12.465 Um, eventually you hit that phase, the hypothesis of par, the hypothesis of 01:42:12.465 --> 01:42:16.235 tolerance phase, where all of those things that you were working on and 01:42:16.235 --> 01:42:21.055 consciously improving are automated and they're just part of what you do. 01:42:21.320 --> 01:42:25.050 Um, if you're watching a really good shooter, most of what they're 01:42:25.050 --> 01:42:27.360 doing is now just fully automated. 01:42:27.470 --> 01:42:32.490 The, the thing that's in their head is basically shoot this course, respond to 01:42:32.490 --> 01:42:36.710 the dynamic targets like do the thing and everything else that's happening, 01:42:36.710 --> 01:42:41.030 their trigger control, their, their failure drills, all of that stuff 01:42:41.650 --> 01:42:42.690 is well below what they're used to. 01:42:43.780 --> 01:42:44.720 It just happens. 01:42:45.180 --> 01:42:47.210 Um, that's the autonomous phase. 01:42:47.220 --> 01:42:51.570 That's the third stage of motor learning and the that's, that's 01:42:51.580 --> 01:42:53.570 where you want to be for performance. 01:42:53.660 --> 01:42:55.430 So you're out on the hunt. 01:42:55.590 --> 01:42:59.690 You're, you know, like you're shooting this animal that you've been, you spent 01:42:59.740 --> 01:43:01.550 years training to, to do this thing. 01:43:01.870 --> 01:43:04.370 You've done all this weapons training, or you're in the military, you're on 01:43:04.370 --> 01:43:05.530 a deployment, you're doing a mission. 01:43:05.530 --> 01:43:06.330 Like that is where. 01:43:06.830 --> 01:43:09.680 All of that skill development, like learning how to manage your emotional, 01:43:09.680 --> 01:43:13.290 your stress responses while you're executing these motor skills, like all of 01:43:13.290 --> 01:43:17.660 that has been developed in the cognitive and associative stages, and now it's all 01:43:17.680 --> 01:43:24.820 automated, and you're Um, that's where you want to be for performance, but once 01:43:24.820 --> 01:43:30.050 you're in that stage, you're no longer proving because you're not conscious of 01:43:30.060 --> 01:43:34.390 how you're executing that skill, you're not breaking it down into smaller pieces. 01:43:34.750 --> 01:43:37.220 You may not be paying as much attention to the feedback loops. 01:43:37.500 --> 01:43:41.060 Um, you may have internalized those feedback loops well enough that like if 01:43:41.060 --> 01:43:44.350 you're in a performance setting and you suddenly realize you anticipated recoil 01:43:44.780 --> 01:43:48.050 or your breathing got off or something happened, like you might be able to 01:43:48.060 --> 01:43:50.300 also automatically correct those things. 01:43:50.760 --> 01:43:55.620 Um, but typically our performance environments are 01:43:55.620 --> 01:43:57.180 not learning environments. 01:43:57.210 --> 01:43:57.770 We don't. 01:43:58.355 --> 01:44:03.525 Display a skill and develop it at the same time We practice something 01:44:03.565 --> 01:44:07.845 and then we perform or we develop something and then we display it And 01:44:07.875 --> 01:44:10.235 and those two things are distinct. 01:44:10.295 --> 01:44:17.230 You can't really do both at once so being in that Or that slow, clunky 01:44:17.230 --> 01:44:20.270 cognitive phase, which even as a good shooter might come up if you're 01:44:20.270 --> 01:44:23.750 on a new weapon system, using a new optic, shooting a new course with a 01:44:23.750 --> 01:44:24.940 different style, something like that. 01:44:24.940 --> 01:44:29.710 Like you might still be in that slow, step by step, kind of the crawl phase. 01:44:29.710 --> 01:44:33.560 Like you'll see, In the military shoot house, people like doing CQB 01:44:33.590 --> 01:44:37.260 go through this stage, even as really experienced professionals where they're 01:44:37.260 --> 01:44:41.180 literally walking and very slowly doing each one of the things they're 01:44:41.180 --> 01:44:42.290 going to do is they're in the room. 01:44:42.930 --> 01:44:46.230 Um, you have to go back into that stage in order to pick up a 01:44:46.230 --> 01:44:51.745 new skill and then refine it and distinguishing between those stages. 01:44:51.855 --> 01:44:55.525 Determines how much you're going to learn and how many new things you're 01:44:55.535 --> 01:44:59.475 able to learn because if you automate skills and you stop thinking about the 01:44:59.475 --> 01:45:03.125 components of them and how to make those components better, if you go from the 01:45:03.165 --> 01:45:07.095 associative phase to the autonomous phase too quickly, and then you just 01:45:07.095 --> 01:45:10.245 go and you're just shooting to shoot, you're shooting to see what you hit. 01:45:10.630 --> 01:45:13.410 You look at your score, you're happy or sad, you move on with your day. 01:45:13.750 --> 01:45:16.100 You're not getting any better if you're just going through 01:45:16.100 --> 01:45:17.260 the motions and doing the thing. 01:45:17.670 --> 01:45:22.960 So if getting better at it is part of your goal, then you need to bring yourself out 01:45:22.960 --> 01:45:27.600 of that automated stage, the autonomous stage of motor learning to where you're 01:45:27.600 --> 01:45:32.380 again, consciously thinking about the individual components of that skill, where 01:45:32.380 --> 01:45:34.440 your limiting factors are in that skill. 01:45:34.575 --> 01:45:37.785 And how you can improve them with a lot of repetitions with 01:45:37.785 --> 01:45:38.925 an immediate feedback loop. 01:45:38.975 --> 01:45:42.755 So you're working with a shooting coach, they're giving you a specific thing to 01:45:42.755 --> 01:45:48.125 focus on that is a limiting factor for you if you're anticipating recoil, if 01:45:48.125 --> 01:45:51.325 your failure drills aren't very good, or whatever it is you're working on. 01:45:51.705 --> 01:45:55.225 You have a very specific thing that you're trying to do better 01:45:55.565 --> 01:45:56.755 and you're doing it with feedback. 01:45:56.765 --> 01:45:59.465 So you know what you're trying to do and you know whether 01:45:59.465 --> 01:46:00.805 you did it right or wrong. 01:46:00.875 --> 01:46:04.655 And you run that feedback loop as many times as you have to until 01:46:05.075 --> 01:46:06.435 you can't get it wrong anymore. 01:46:06.735 --> 01:46:10.485 And then you can go back to the autonomous stage and go shoot for funsies and 01:46:10.485 --> 01:46:11.835 just see what kind of score you get. 01:46:12.005 --> 01:46:15.625 But if you're trying to become better at it, you have to bump yourself 01:46:15.655 --> 01:46:17.255 up and down through those stages. 01:46:17.255 --> 01:46:20.115 And the people who get stuck, who've been shooting for 10 years and 01:46:20.115 --> 01:46:21.505 haven't got better for eight of them. 01:46:21.845 --> 01:46:25.975 I have automated those skills and they've just been shooting, um, without 01:46:25.975 --> 01:46:29.925 going back into those associative, like learning based stages where 01:46:29.925 --> 01:46:33.005 you have a conscious practice, a mental model, and a feedback loop. 01:46:33.035 --> 01:46:35.175 Travis Bader: Craig, that's absolutely amazing. 01:46:35.235 --> 01:46:37.945 I really like, honestly, I could talk to you for hours. 01:46:37.965 --> 01:46:40.355 You have so much information and I know you're going to be back on 01:46:40.365 --> 01:46:44.305 the podcast again, I'm going to be putting links where people can find 01:46:44.305 --> 01:46:46.425 your book in the, uh, in the bio. 01:46:47.035 --> 01:46:50.815 Um, Thank you so much for being on the Silvercore podcast. 01:46:50.835 --> 01:46:52.095 I really enjoyed this chat. 01:46:53.915 --> 01:46:54.105 Craig Weller: Thanks. 01:46:54.355 --> 01:46:55.155 I had a good time. 01:46:55.155 --> 01:46:55.625 Thanks for having me.