Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast. Brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Krysia: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Krysia, and it's great that you've joined us this week. The podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology. Sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

If you'd like to access the [00:01:00] transcript of this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. And today for our lovely cat podcast episode, we have lovely Zoe, one of our co-hosts, and we are gonna chat all about Zoe's fantastic research with dyslexic Christians on reading the Bible. Hello, Zoe.

Zoe: Hello. It's so weird being like on the other side of the podcast being interviewed. I'm not used to this. I'm like, I feel like I should be asking you questions, Krysia. Um, but it's very nice to be yeah, sharing a bit more about my own research. Um, I know like I share bits occasionally on CATChat, um, about my research.

So yeah, it's nice to be able to lecture a bit more about what I do. Um, but yeah. 

Krysia: Definitely. And having recently read some of your thesis for a, a manuscript a friend and I are currently doing it is a cracking piece of research. So I wondered if you could tell us a bit about why you wanted to do it in the first place.

Zoe: Yeah, [00:02:00] so. I should also say I've recently defended my thesis and passed my Viva, so we are like done. Done. Um, whoa. But, um, it's been a long process. I guess like most of the time a PhD is like a three, four year project, but for me, I actually started researching dyslexia and engaging with the Bible in my undergraduate.

Um. So basically I was doing a project with our co-director of the Center, Leon on Autism and Music, and one of my participants was dyslexic. And a lot of what she was saying, I'm a dyslexic Christian, and a lot of what she was saying was really resonating with my experience as a dyslexic person, like some of our things about how she engaged with the Bible.

And I kind of, I was like a slightly clueless 20-year-old at the time. Um, not really. Like I was in my third year of my undergrad and I was just like, this is really interesting though, like, is anyone researched dyslexia in theology?

And he was like, [00:03:00] no. Um. Do you want to research that for your dissertation? Um, so this was in my fourth year and I was like, sure, why not? Um, let's do something fun. And in my undergraduate dissertation, we. Interviewed, I think like ended up in the end, 'cause we turned it into an article. We interviewed about 15 dyslexic Christians and found that there was a lot of dynamics not being spoken about.

A lot of guilt and shame over struggling to read the Bible. A lot of really interesting things about how dyslexic people think that is often overlooked. Um. And ultimately just there's this focus on reading your Bible and there's resources that exist to support that. But no one was really asking any more questions about how it feels to be a dyslexic Christian in church.

What is like the broad lived experiences of dyslexic Christians. Um, but just like an undergraduate dissertation and an article really just scratched the surface. Um. [00:04:00] And I decided to do a PhD. 'cause I was like, I wanna keep researching this. And I really enjoyed the topic.

So I started my PhD, um, to really ask this question. And being dyslexic myself and kind of through writing the article in my dissertation, realizing that there's a lot of things I hadn't even thought about. My dyslexic experience, you know, how does it make me feel to. Growing up in a church where I was expected, or church communities where I was expected to read the Bible every day consistently.

And that being really hard for me and the impact that had on my mental wellbeing, how I viewed myself as a Christian, um, because I couldn't really do this thing or process. These texts I was meant to process and how that impacted me was really interesting thinking about, um, so yeah, the PhD was a asking more about what is going on.

It was very broad, just like what does it mean to be a dyslexic Christian? Um, and how do dyslexic Christians experience engaging with the Bible? [00:05:00] So yeah, that's how I came to my research. 

Krysia: That is so cool. And I also find so many of us in Cat. Oh. Our research is almost like an extension of us and our experiences, but quite like mine was as well.

And I wonder if you could give us a little bit of flavor of what you found in your very broad exploration around dyslexic Christians. What it means to be one and reading the Bible. 

Zoe: Yeah, so it's interesting, like I was just gonna start with what you said there about research being extension of us. That was very much something I felt and.

I reflect on a lot of my methodology. Like I always think my research is gonna have had more of an impact on me than anyone else because it's like I've lived and breathed it for so many years and it's so intertwined with my own experience. I think I love that about my research because it's shaped me as a person.

And me as a Christian as well, it's like academic, personal, um, [00:06:00] spiritual, which is pretty cool, I think, and a privilege to be able to research something that I guess you're probably the same that has such like a meaningful impact on your own self. 

Krysia: Um. So, yeah, if it works anything like mine, you'll probably get people, I've had somebody, a friend of a friend read it and go, I feel so seen by it.

Yeah. So I know that you people are gonna do the same with yours as well. 

Zoe: Yeah. Which is a really, like, again, it's a privilege to be able to do that, but, um, I consciously decided in my own thesis not to include my own lived experience. I do have an article coming out that Krysia edited, which I talk more about my own experience, but I decided intentionally not to do that in the thesis because.

I wanted to step away slightly. Just, um, yeah, I wanted to focus on other ways of get, like finding data and speaking to people. So I did, my research was Participatory Action Research, so I worked with a. group of four dyslexic Christians through the project to help shape the [00:07:00] project. Made key decisions, had really cool conversations about the research.

And then I also interviewed, I cannot remember the number, like 13, 14, 15, somewhere around that mark that might be completely wrong. I don't do numbers. Um, a lot of dyslexic questions. So they did reflective journals and interviews and, um. Ultimately, I found there were loads, loads of things. So the key themes I found were like people's relationship with the Bible.

Um, the impact of being dyslexic Christian on concept of self. So like how people viewed themselves and their identity compared themselves with others. Um, the other third theme was processing information sole. We'll process information differently and what does that mean for them positively and the challenge that challenges it can bring.

And then my final theme that I found in the data was community. So what does it mean to be a dyslexic person in a community? What are some of the barriers, but what are some of the positive things about [00:08:00] relationships with others? And there was loads of loads of stuff. To unpack that I don't have time to go into, but overall, there was very much a shared feeling among participants that their communities didn't always understand the difficulties and the values.

So both things, um, that being a dyslexic Christian can bring. And this impacted well mental wellbeing because their challenges were also being overlooked, but also the value of difference and dyslexia was overlooked. And that, um. Yeah, really impacted people. A lot of people often felt like they weren't good enough, which brought me to like my first kind of.

Theological reflection on those findings, um, which explored the chapter was called The Good Christian, and explored this idea of like, what do our communities often expect a good Christian to look like? And particularly most of my participants were Protestant, evangelical. Um, that wasn't intentional. That just is.

[00:09:00] The way it worked out. So what does it mean in those communities to be a good Christian? Well, often it looks like read your bible, pray every day reading these big, chunky academicy books that are like, one of our participants talks about like the expectation if you read more leather bound beautiful books, you were a better Christian.

Um, and those dynamics that can be quite, um. Intellectual, um, in some communities can be really problem for dys, problematic for dyslexic Christians. Um, and that's quite a big example, but I think it's just those underlying things of like, I need to read my Bible every day because that's what my tradition says, but actually I find that really difficult and because I find that difficult, I then experienced shame and exclusion and, um, I, it was a really interesting one to grapple with 'cause it was probably the.

Reflection that was very closely intertwined with my own experience, you know, reading. Yeah. My participants talked about feeling [00:10:00] stupid, feeling like they weren't good enough, comparing themselves to others, and that was really sad and. But also the reality for a lot of dyslexic people. So then with that, I looked at like embodiment in scripture and how, um, engaging scriptures through music, looking at more like liturgical traditions, um, can actually relieve a lot of pressure for dyslexic people.

Um. So yeah, that was kinda like my first big reflection.

Krysia: I guess also it's just really interesting 'cause this idea being like a good Christian and an ideal worshiper is something that I spoke about in my work. And I know I picked up from Naomi Lawson Jacobs's work and they spoke about in there.

So it's so fascinating that it's got so many different facets. It's not just about how you are, it's also how you, how you do Bible in a very kind of simple way. That's also really kinda idealized as well. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

And I think sometimes it's like it's, it's a lot of that chapter I talk about Leon's work on the cult of normalcy.

Yeah. And which if people don't know, it's [00:11:00] this kind of like ideals we have in communities and even if it's unintentional, all communities do have like ideals that you kind of like aspire to be. And it's not that communities are intentionally being like mean and excluding. It's just dynamics that happen and then that can be really problematic for people who don't fit that mold.

Yeah. Um, and that goes overlooked a lot of the time. 

Krysia: Yeah. It's just, it's just, it shows us how many different kind of facets to this that there is. It's not just kind of accessible one particular way, and I think the, the point you made about one of your participants saying that the more leather bound books they read, the better Christian they were.

Yeah. I, I find that really, really interesting. 'cause it's almost so about the best you can look and perform Yeah. In a way rather than the best authentic engagement. Yeah. With faith. So it's really interesting. 

Zoe: Absolutely. And that kind of like, um, so like that sort of like authentic engagement with [00:12:00] faith was something I really talked about in like my sort of second big theological reflection.

I talked about like this idea of like when speed and productivity are valued, dyslexic, people can feel like they're behind. Um. And it's that kind of pressure to constantly be doing, like reading my Bible every day. And that can be really exhausting. Um, and that chapter I talked a lot about authentic bible engagement, like slowing down to work out what authentic Bible engagement looks like for you.

And, um, for like one of my participants, I loved it. He would like go for a walk in nature and see something that was really beautiful or that caught his eye and then would write a poem or something reflecting on God's goodness in the world, or he would like rewrite Psalms and it's that kind of just like.

Moving away from like tick box Bible reading to like, okay, how can I authentically as a dyslexic Christian, engage with the Bible? And for [00:13:00] some dyslexic Christians that might be reading, like my research isn't saying you shouldn't be reading, but it's just like, okay, let's slow down and work out what works for you, I guess.

Um, and again, that impacted me a lot on my own faith journey and yeah. 

Krysia: It reminds me a lot about of slow church and always want to just do, do, do, do, do. Yeah. Rather than do meaningfully. And for some people do meaningfully. If you do, your brain does work really fast. Is do, do, do. But for some people it's taking a moment before We do, do do.

Zoe: Yeah. That's very much like. So what I've not mentioned is like a lot of people, obviously when you talk about dyslexia, they talk about like dyslexia friendly bibles or dyslexia friendly scripture products. And um, I think I've probably promoted bible societies dyslexia friendly scripture product products on the podcast before.

I'm a big fan. Um, not so much of other ones, but I think. [00:14:00] This is part of the issue is like resources do exist, but these resources are often being created that kind of like, oh, we need to create a resource for dyslexic Christians. But no one's really actually stepped back to say, okay, let's like one step before this, let's.

Talk about what it actually means to be a dyslexic Christian rather than like slap on a plaster that can work for some people and can be really healing and, um, amazing for some people. But it also leaves a lot of people because it leaves communities feel like the issue being addressed when actually it is not because of this, like, do, do, do, do rather than, well, let's take a step back and just see what's going on first.

Krysia: Yeah. And talk with dyslexic questions and find out what dyslexic Christians experiences actually are. Yeah. Almost like in, um, non theological autism research and other [00:15:00] research that the center has done. Mm-hmm. Like, um. Hannah Cundill's, um, doctoral work that I was on the, um, par group for where she spoke with us and kind of got our feedback into what was going on.

So it feels like some products say, just kind of just make an assumption rather than engaging with the community. Yeah. In way. 

Zoe: It's like resources are fantastic, but it needs to go alongside critical reflection. And yeah, really like addressing like the holistic experience. And that was basically like the end of my thesis kind of comes to this as like.

We just need to be chatting to dyslexic Christians that like, at a very like setback point, is listening to lived experiences of dyslexic Christians working in communities to explore how dyslexic people can engage with the Bible authentically. Um, but not just like pushing people to. Essentially read like a normal [00:16:00] quotation marks person.

Um, but I think that is like, I guess that's like the main thing I wanted to do through my research as I've gone through is just like, let's have more conversations about this. Let's stop, um, overlooking dyslexic people. Because often what I found is, um, a lot of my participants. People don't really notice their struggles because it's very easy to mask, obviously.

Yeah. Autistic masking is usually different to, not always, but like dyslexic masking and autistic masking. I'm careful with like conflating those two things, but dyslexic people, yeah, I think it's much easier to mask for, for a lot of dyslexic Christians, it's much easier to mask the impacts of dyslexia in a faith community setting than it is for many autistic people or, um, ADHDers.

And I think as much as that is. Like you can say that that makes it easier to be a dyslexic Christian. I don't necessarily think it's helpful to compare. It also means [00:17:00] that it's much easier to assume that dyslexia has been dealt with and it's fine and forget to see the mental health challenges and difficulties that are going on.

Krysia: Yeah, that's very much kind of what my take would be as well. That I guess, especially when I think about in schools. Being dyslexic was seen as less kind of stigmatized because we're much, much easier to fall under the radar because, oh, you just have a bit of problem with reading without looking at the holistic way that.

And I, I very much learned this, so I was screened for dyslexia before I was assessed and having quite significant visual stress. Mm-hmm. Because they were like, oh, we probably need to get you checked in my master's. And having been through that screening process, I have much more of an appreciation now for the way that dyslexic people think and actually kind of the things that they're looking for.

In comparison to kind of, um, people who aren't dyslexic. And I [00:18:00] think that, I think the nature of way we have such a focus within church settings on words and speech can really disadvantage lots of different neurodivergent people, but I think it's much in a way. Our kind of reliance on reading things off of projectors, reading things off of PowerPoint screens, reading things off of notice things, especially really, really liturgical heavy churches have been in, for example, kind of Church of England churches where they'll give you like.

Four, five sheets of long, dense, heavy text to read and you are just sitting there going, oh my goodness. It's very easy to kind of look like you know what you're doing, but not have a, a clue what you're doing and then feel absolutely rubbish. So, yeah, 

Zoe: and I think like the interesting thing about dyslexia, um, which, um, I think dyslexia has very misunderstood a lot of the time.

Um. And I think it's helpful as well for people to really [00:19:00] understand dyslexia properly, research it. I'll actually link a Dyslexia Scotland survey document that talks a lot about the. Experiences of dyslexic people that go beyond just reading. But I think dyslexia, like it's a really interesting thing 'cause it's not just like I look at a page and the words move up and down, which I think is a sort of like assumption a lot of people have.

It's like, okay, I can actually read a page pretty quickly, but I've forgotten it two minutes later. Yeah. Whereas for me, the words do move around the twist. So there's always conflation between different kind of processing styles. And even things like, um, colored acetates or overlays like people, um, I, when I talk about my research, people have often said like, oh, would like a covered overlay help?

And it absolutely will help some people. But actually vis that's visual stress, like what you're talking about, which a lot of dyslexic people do have. So the A states do often help, but they don't, 'cause not all [00:20:00] the psych people have visual stress. Yeah. So then it's these like misunderstandings that can actually be, yeah.

Quite problematic because people assume that problem solved. Um, so I think this is, again, it's just like educating on what dyslexia actually is and learning about that. Um, before kind of, and learning about what, like, okay, you've got a dyslexic person in your congregation, but like, what does that.

Dyslexic person's life actually looked like, um, like one of my co-research group people, the like four dyslexic Christians I worked with, um, actually two of them really enjoyed reading. Like reading was a very big part of their life. But they're still dyslexic and they still had a lot of challenges with engaging with the Bible and being in faith communities, um, like maybe getting words wrong or processing things a bit slower than other people.

And just the general shame of being different. Um, so it's like, I guess getting to know people as well and just being like, okay. [00:21:00] One dyslexic person is not gonna tell me everything I need to know about being a dyslexic Christian, which is the same with like autism, a DH, adhd, all these things, 

Krysia: all kinds of neuro divergencies are.

Traumatic brain injury. Yeah. Or kind of cerebral palsy. Yeah. All those different things kind of, you meet, it's, it's, it's over simplistic, but if you meet one person, you're never gonna capture the whole experience that lots of different people have. Yeah. And the variety of different strengths and challenges and barriers that we face.

Zoe: Yeah. And I think also with that, there's something to be said about power dynamics. Like it's. Like power dynamics exist in churches and any community, and that can be a really good or a really bad thing. But it's particularly bad when the people in power don't understand those things and put people into boxes because that's when, yeah, we get these kind of like, oh, well, like we're putting the Bible verses on the screen most Sundays.

Like that's, we're dyslexia [00:22:00] friendly. And it's like, whoa. N no because you're still making comments and sermons like, um, I dunno, like you need to read this for yourself or like, um, just like get into Bible reading. And it's like these kind of like subtle things that happen as a result of power dynamics can cause a lot of negative impacts as well.

And I really do believe that comes from misunderstandings. They're just not, um. Thinking through well enough what you're doing and saying and how that might impact people. And that's where like chatting to dyslexic people are like, um, yeah. Understanding people and listening to people can make a huge difference.

Krysia: Yeah, definitely. And I guess it'd be really interesting to know where this really exciting piece of research and really important piece of research, given it's. The dyslexia and theology piece of work other than your article, um, where it's going next? 

Zoe: Yeah. What exciting plans have you got for it? [00:23:00] Uh, I, well, this week I found out some very exciting plans.

Um. I have signed a book contract with Routledge who are an academic publisher in social sciences. Yes. Um, I actually, like, when I was looking through, I was searching like, um, neurodiversity and stuff and Krysia's name pops off as soon as you search and neurodiversity on Routledge. Um. But, um, that was, yeah, so I'll be publishing my big chunky thesis as a big chunky book.

Um, hopefully it'll come out in January next year. Um, so that'll be very much like academic. It's basically gonna be like the content of my thesis just rewritten so that it's not an exam document anymore.

Um. But yeah, so the book will be coming out in beginning of 2027, all going well. And then obviously I think I've spoken about this on the podcast before, probably I have this weird tension of like, I'm writing on [00:24:00] dyslexia and a lot of dyslexic people struggle to read and don't particularly enjoy reading.

But then I'm publishing like a 90,000 word book about dyslexia, and that feels slightly odd, I think. For me, that's very much like contributing to the academy. Um, so I want to, I really want to produce. More resources that are more accessible. Um, so again, like this podcast works as a resource. Um, I'm hoping to publish a smaller form book that just goes over like the basics of the research and brings in some more lived experiences.

Um, a few of my co-research group, um, yeah, my co-research group are contributing to that as well and are interested in being involved. So. We've got plans in the works for publishing something slightly smaller that's, um, you can maybe like yeah, read over a shorter period of time. Um, hopefully do a cat webinar.

Um, and then I [00:25:00] also have a link in the show notes, a tiny little, um. A very short, like 10 page booklet that summarizes my results in a very simple way. I've actually been using that to like, remember what I'm saying on this. So I'll link that in the show notes. Um, again, I'm very aware that this is like a lot of written word based stuff and I think that's like, if anyone has thoughts on how to like, um, share the research in a slightly more accessful way, um, I would love to hear that.

'cause it is a. A strange thing to navigate as an academic and also, yeah, writing for and about dyslexic people. Um. But yeah. 

Krysia: Yeah, because Zoe and I had a brief chat just before we started recording about kind of video summaries and things like that. Mm-hmm. And it might be really good to hear, because I've done similar things for other, um, to other editor collections I did, just because they're so extortionate and we were aware that they could sit very [00:26:00] nicely in the library, but no one would actually be able to Yeah.

Access them. But also the fact that they're, some of them are so text dense, heavy. Yeah. Um, that actually where audiobooks are becoming more and more common, actually having a summary that someone can then listen to. Yeah. And go, oh, I might then want to put that through my screen reader, or I'll try and get a p an MP 3 of that.

Yeah. Or I can get it from my library. Just helps some of the cognitive load. Yeah. So if anyone has any other ideas, I know Zoe and also selfishly me for some of the work I'm, I'm kind of involved with, we'd both love to hear any ideas that you have, particularly if you are. Do you process things a bit differently?

Yeah, because it's really important that we kind of, even though we have lived experience, we are in the academic ivory tower, however precariously, so people on the ground might think, oh, that's a really good idea, and then we can engage in dialogue with you. 

Zoe: Yeah. I think it's something actually I should add as well.

I'm gonna be speaking [00:27:00] at, um, an event in Perth in September. But it's an event that is based at, um, people working with in children and youth ministry. And it's gonna be focused on disability and inclusion. So I'm doing a workshop on dyslexia and Mark Arnold's talking about, um, autism and um, additional support need ministries. So I'll link that in the show notes, um, or put information. 'cause I don't actually think signups are out yet.

Um, but yeah, just going back to that, I think it's. How we create accessible resources is definitely a challenge that we are increasingly facing in CAT because it's like I have, like we all have these like huge research projects that are pretty dense, but then we do want people to know about it. 'cause then if people don't, aren't able to access research, then that.

Even more barriers because it's like a lot of people can't then access resources or information that is about them, and that's problematic. And I think it's something we're constantly [00:28:00] navigating with cat. Like, okay, how do we present our research in accessible ways? So yeah, absolutely get in touch. Um. If you have any thoughts, 

Krysia: I guess it's just about doing things justly as well.

Yeah. Otherwise, all we are doing is extracting stuff. Yeah. And then just kind of going, yeah, we've got this fantastic stuff and. Yes, it's great that we do these research findings, but I'm always someone for collaborating with not just kind of taking someone idea, but if someone has a really great idea working with them Yeah.

And giving them the, the kudos to say, yeah, yeah, that they gave me this really great idea. Now we are working together. Yeah. These amazing findings I have. Absolutely. 

Zoe: Yeah, 

that's so true. And I think as well, I'm also a big fan of the fact that like, conversations as a result of research can create the most change sometimes.

Like, yes, reading my research summary probably isn't gonna like, transform how dyslexic people, um, are like, [00:29:00] understood or treated in faith communities. But what I hope it will do is give a few people the confidence to say, oh. This resonates with my experience. Like whether you agree with the, the research or not, like this kinda resonates with my experience.

I actually feel like in church this could be done better and there's now like research backing this that I can then yes, show someone and I think it's. Those, like, almost like research can equip people to have conversations. And I think that's what I really hope for my research is like, um, whether you're a hundred percent on board with it or not, that there's something in it that like resonates and makes you want to push for a change.

And I think you would say the same with your like impossible subject stuff and like, yes. 

Krysia: And I think I was gonna say, I've actually recently had a book chapter accepted. Title of conversation as intervention where we basically just talking to people. Yeah. People took part in my research, just the talking to me allowed them to go back to their churches and also their mosques [00:30:00] as well, and go, hang on a minute, rather than me charging in, like, I'm gonna go and do something.

I'm gonna go and change stuff. Just having those conversations. Yeah. Allowed them to go do their own research that then they could take back culturally sensitive back. And when I say culturally sensitive, it's stuff that fits within the realms of, yeah. Their church and that's gonna work for them rather than making sus me assuming what is right.

Zoe: Yeah. So I guess it's like grassroots stuff in a way. It's like equipping people to like, on the ground in churches to call for change. Um, in ways that like, again, like as I said, like a lot of my research just ended up being more focused on evangelical Christians unintentionally. Um, and. I think there's so much scope to talk about dyslexia and other traditions and even other religions, but I think it's like, okay, well even if like, like you said, bringing stuff back in, like ways that are relevant to the [00:31:00] community you're written, which like, I don't understand what it means to be in a Catholic church, for example, but hopefully like from research that's maybe slightly different focus like.

Things can then be adapted to have conversations in different denominations as well. Yeah. Um, which I just don't have the knowledge or ability to do. 

Krysia: Yeah. And I guess it's gives a quite and quite nice link back to the, um, conversation that Harriet Py and I had just poor Christmas. Yeah. Because she was talking a lot about her experiences in the Catholic church and some of the traditions and there's things there that I was like, yep, I understand that.

'cause my dad grew up Catholic. Right. But there are other things to just talk about. I'm going, that's not my experience at all. So I guess it's just having those, again, it's just conversations are just so fruitful. And I'll put the reference to the book and when it's out, we'll make sure that we can get it out on the CAT.

Yeah. Podcast as well. Yeah, they'll, yeah.

Zoe: I think it's like a fun time as well to be like, [00:32:00] so many conversations are happening. Like, um. And CAT, but also out with CAT about different, um, neurodiversity like you're now writing on like visual stress and I think this is what's like, so cool. We are the Auto and Theology podcast, so I appreciate that you've been willing to have a dyslexia week as our listeners, but I think that is what's so cool.

It's like there's so much. To explore. But there's also so much overlap. Like a lot of what my research talks about will be relevant to like various other people. I mean like 60% of dyslexic people also have a DHD or something like that. So then it's like a lot of what I talk about is probably like relevant to a DH ADHD as much as dyslexia.

Krysia: And there's quite a few of my participants who were also dyslexic and a DH ADHD as well. So even though I took an autism focus. When I asked them, oh, well what does being autistic mean to you? They went, oh yeah, it means it's this. Oh yeah. And by the way, I'm also XY Z da da, or I have X, Y, Z [00:33:00] experiences.

And I think we forget that so many people are multiply neurodivergent. Yeah. In multiple different ways. Yeah. And we can't just tidily put people in and autism or an a d doing work with, um, A DHD Christians. I wonder how many of her participants are also autistic. Yeah, dyslexic, dyspraxic, um, have other acquired NeuroD IES through life.

Yeah. She can't neatly put people in boxes. It's people, it's almost like some experiences might be stronger than others and people might have more of an affinity with some neuro lived experiences than others, but we are not tidily in neat little boxes. 

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think like the more research about.

Different NeuroD diversities and faith communities and spirituality, the better an idea we'll get of those kind of like dynamics and um, yeah. Yeah, it's an exciting time. So yeah, if anyone wants to research dyslexia and build on my research, then please do. Yeah. [00:34:00] 

Krysia: ,Well thank you so much, Zoe for joining us today.

It's been so great to hear about. Your research because we've heard bits and bobs in snippets throughout conversations the last few years, but not seen like the whole story. Yeah. And it's gonna be really exciting to see this come out into the world and when Ian's done his, we can do the same to him as well.

Just make him talk kindly for an hour about his research. Yep. And thank, thank you listeners as well for joining us for this episode. If you have any questions or if you have any feedback to us about the kind of accessible ways of dissemination that you'd be keen to chat, chat to us about or kind of collaborate us with, you can message us at Autism Theology on Blue Sky or Instagram, or you can send us an email.

At cat@adn.ac.uk and even if it's just to say hi, we would love to hear from you.

Zoe: [00:35:00] Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just wanna say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.