WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.581 --> 00:00:12.871 Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. 00:00:13.701 --> 00:00:19.701 This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. 00:00:20.121 --> 00:00:24.471 Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:24.971 --> 00:00:27.731 I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. 00:00:27.821 --> 00:00:35.711 And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. 00:00:36.331 --> 00:00:38.881 A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. 00:00:39.216 --> 00:00:40.056 Only stuff that 00:00:40.056 --> 00:00:40.586 works. 00:00:41.243 --> 00:00:47.453 Something new for us today, and that is a topic we have not discussed yet, and that is school boards. 00:00:48.263 --> 00:00:56.033 And I am so happy today to have a very expert guest to talk about school boards. 00:00:56.033 --> 00:00:57.563 And that's AJ Rabble. 00:00:57.803 --> 00:01:02.663 AJ serves as the National Director of Governance at the Council of Great City Schools. 00:01:03.113 --> 00:01:08.003 He recently served as the conservator at DeSoto, Texas Independent School District. 00:01:08.618 --> 00:01:21.788 As Deputy commissioner at the Texas Education Agency and as Board chair of the Kansas City, Missouri Public Schools, the third edition of his bestselling book, great on their behalf, why School Boards Fail. 00:01:22.328 --> 00:01:25.148 How You Can Be Effective was released last month. 00:01:26.483 --> 00:01:36.743 I am not embarrassed to say I learned a lot from AJ and was very surprised about what I thought I knew was absolutely wrong. 00:01:36.953 --> 00:01:38.483 I think you're gonna like this one. 00:01:38.979 --> 00:01:39.949 Good morning, aj. 00:01:39.949 --> 00:01:43.279 Welcome to Better Teaching Only Stuff that Works. 00:01:43.969 --> 00:01:45.259 Gene, thanks for having me on the show. 00:01:46.009 --> 00:01:50.949 Well, I was very excited to have a chance to talk to you about school boards. 00:01:50.949 --> 00:01:56.369 It's an, it's a an issue that we haven't brought up before, but it's an issue that. 00:01:56.684 --> 00:02:00.934 Every school that we work with, you know, has to worry about. 00:02:00.934 --> 00:02:00.994 Yeah. 00:02:01.024 --> 00:02:04.224 So it makes sense that we understand that more. 00:02:04.474 --> 00:02:17.684 And I think especially the people who get so frustrated about what's going on with schools, if we have a better understanding about a governing board than I think we'll be a little bit more understanding of what's going on or more critical. 00:02:18.074 --> 00:02:20.839 Either, you know, it goes both ways. 00:02:20.989 --> 00:02:28.549 So, so you have lots of experience not only being on boards, but working with school boards. 00:02:28.549 --> 00:02:31.029 Now you're part of the greater council of schools. 00:02:32.679 --> 00:02:33.429 It's organization. 00:02:33.429 --> 00:02:33.944 Can you talk about that a little bit? 00:02:34.094 --> 00:02:34.384 Yeah. 00:02:34.459 --> 00:02:43.449 Organization, the largest urban school systems in the country that came together about 70 years ago and said, you know, we have a lot in common and we should support each other. 00:02:43.789 --> 00:02:51.879 And that's in all aspects of public school systems, you know, from transportation and food service to instruction. 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:53.559 And in my case, governance. 00:02:55.084 --> 00:03:01.134 Now when you work with these, the largest school districts in the United States, what are the common issues? 00:03:01.974 --> 00:03:10.854 Because you talked about you, you know, from the beginning you talked about transportation, you talked, you know, we're talking about feeding kids, we're talking about all of these things. 00:03:11.184 --> 00:03:14.364 And then at the end of your sentence, you said, and governance. 00:03:15.204 --> 00:03:23.554 Well, most of what's going on in public education looks pretty sim I mean, food service looks pretty similar wherever you go. 00:03:23.554 --> 00:03:27.904 The, I mean, the big difference with large urbans is the scale. 00:03:27.994 --> 00:03:29.824 It's just different if you're feeding a thousand kids. 00:03:30.149 --> 00:03:35.999 Once a day versus if you're feeding a hundred thousand kids three times a day, I mean the, you know, it's just a scale issue. 00:03:35.999 --> 00:03:37.169 Same thing with transportation. 00:03:37.349 --> 00:03:46.419 You know, it's different if you are trying to put together a busing system that covers 300 square miles versus a busing system that just covers 10 square miles. 00:03:46.529 --> 00:03:54.144 The differences of scale, whether kind of geographic scale and rural and population scale and urban are significant factors. 00:03:54.514 --> 00:03:54.604 But. 00:03:55.483 --> 00:04:03.132 at its core, you know, third graders or third graders, you know, eighth graders or eighth graders and you know, they're gonna have a variety of needs. 00:04:03.132 --> 00:04:10.737 And school systems just have to figure out how do we create a system that is responsive to the needs of the students that we have so that we can. 00:04:11.322 --> 00:04:17.252 Help them improve what they know and are able to do so they can be ready for the next level of learning and live choice field life. 00:04:17.532 --> 00:04:25.362 And in that regard, that expectation and that charge exists across all 13,000 school systems in the country. 00:04:26.727 --> 00:04:35.537 And that focus is really what your work is what you're truly trying to get the boards to do, is to focus on that learning for those students about how you move them along. 00:04:36.057 --> 00:04:37.227 Is that different? 00:04:37.227 --> 00:04:41.427 I, is that different from large school district to large school district? 00:04:41.797 --> 00:04:47.002 Not not even a little bit whether it's large, small massive, tiny and. 00:04:48.847 --> 00:04:51.217 I've worked with districts with 150 students. 00:04:51.247 --> 00:04:55.117 I've worked with districts with way over 150,000 students. 00:04:55.497 --> 00:04:57.717 And the core charge of the board doesn't change. 00:04:57.717 --> 00:05:09.887 Like I said, the scale changes and so obviously there are details that change, but the core mission of the board is the exact same to represent the vision of values of the community in such a way that student outcomes improve. 00:05:10.357 --> 00:05:11.407 And that doesn't change. 00:05:11.407 --> 00:05:13.627 I mean, the reason school systems exist. 00:05:13.997 --> 00:05:17.417 Is constant school systems exist for one reason and one reason only. 00:05:17.507 --> 00:05:21.197 And that's to cause improvements in what children no one are able to do so they can live a choice filled life. 00:05:21.747 --> 00:05:22.647 And that's true. 00:05:22.897 --> 00:05:27.247 That's the same thing the parents in your neighborhood want the same thing that parents in my neighborhood want. 00:05:28.657 --> 00:05:29.017 Well, I think. 00:05:29.982 --> 00:05:31.002 Well, let's just go there. 00:05:31.102 --> 00:05:42.142 I think you, you're saying that the parents want that, but it looks very different to some parents what's gonna happen in, in some neighborhoods or in their particular school. 00:05:42.532 --> 00:05:51.122 So when we're talking about working with all of these schools, there's a main goal of, I want my kids to learn, but what they learn and how they learn. 00:05:51.977 --> 00:05:53.447 Is expressed very differently. 00:05:53.447 --> 00:05:53.867 Oh, absolutely. 00:05:54.027 --> 00:05:56.587 But that's because the context is just different. 00:05:56.887 --> 00:06:01.417 You know, I'm thinking one particular school system, it was really important in their community. 00:06:01.627 --> 00:06:04.477 The children had access to learning about. 00:06:04.897 --> 00:06:06.367 Underwater welding. 00:06:07.357 --> 00:06:15.067 Meanwhile I'm thinking about a very different school system where it's really important to them that children had access to education about animal husbandry. 00:06:15.217 --> 00:06:18.157 And I'm thinking of yet another school system where it's really important to them. 00:06:18.157 --> 00:06:21.657 The kids had access to classes that would teach them how to code. 00:06:22.362 --> 00:06:30.492 Now, as you can probably surmise, these are in three very different parts of the country and are really responsive to kind of local industries and things of that nature. 00:06:30.882 --> 00:06:43.132 What doesn't change is that parents want their kids to have the knowledge and skills necessary to live a choice filled life, that they can live a life of meaning, of their own intention, of their own choosing their own agency and take care of themselves, their loved ones, and their communities. 00:06:43.132 --> 00:06:49.552 Like that is the constant, but certainly the details of what that looks like from community to community is certainly gonna vary. 00:06:51.037 --> 00:07:02.997 How does how does a a school board member learn about that they want underwater welding or that they want, you know, a classic education or that they want these things? 00:07:03.267 --> 00:07:04.697 Is it really you know. 00:07:05.477 --> 00:07:08.117 Community members coming to the board and speaking? 00:07:08.327 --> 00:07:13.757 Or is it the superintendent comes to the board with what they've learned? 00:07:13.787 --> 00:07:16.517 What kind of, what's the flow of of information? 00:07:17.087 --> 00:07:17.327 Yeah. 00:07:17.327 --> 00:07:19.697 So first and foremost, it is important. 00:07:19.697 --> 00:07:22.517 The job of the board is to represent the vision of values of the community. 00:07:22.517 --> 00:07:23.807 It's not the superintendent's job. 00:07:23.807 --> 00:07:25.697 The superintendent is not the community's representative. 00:07:26.127 --> 00:07:33.262 The job of the superintendent is to implement the vision of values of the community as conveyed to them by the board, but it's the job of the board to represent. 00:07:33.862 --> 00:07:35.152 The vision values of community. 00:07:35.152 --> 00:07:38.632 And so if the board's gonna do that job, did they actually have to go out and do the listening? 00:07:39.002 --> 00:07:45.392 They, they can't allow, you know, a consultant or a staff or a superintendent or anyone else to be a proxy for that. 00:07:45.392 --> 00:07:47.102 They actually have to go out and do the work themselves. 00:07:47.102 --> 00:07:52.512 And so they and so would not be sufficient to, Hey, we had a meeting and here are the five people who showed up. 00:07:52.512 --> 00:07:55.172 So that's the voice of the community, that's absolutely unacceptable. 00:07:55.652 --> 00:07:56.672 The reality is that. 00:07:56.747 --> 00:08:14.027 Communities, pretty much no matter what size your school system are are gonna require board members to take extra effort to go out and engage in the quality and quantity of listening necessary to really grasp a more holistic view of what is our community's vision for what students should know and be able to do. 00:08:14.417 --> 00:08:19.707 And so it's through an intentional campaign of listening that the board members would harvest that insight. 00:08:20.062 --> 00:08:24.592 Ideally from a representative sample of their entire community, not just the people who show up at board meetings. 00:08:24.712 --> 00:08:33.192 Not just the loudest voice, not just the most influential voice, but really as broad and representational of a cross-sectional community as possible. 00:08:33.582 --> 00:08:36.342 And then takes all of that and sits down and. 00:08:37.792 --> 00:08:42.082 And developed it into a set of priorities that they then hand to the superintendent. 00:08:42.142 --> 00:08:52.432 Now, the superintendent certainly plays a role as the key advisor to the board, but at the end of the day, it's the board's job to identify the priorities, what we refer to as goals and guardrails. 00:08:53.062 --> 00:09:01.482 It's the board's job to identify the priorities and then hand those priorities to superintendent and say, Hey here's what our community wants your job's to come up with a plan of action to figure out how to make it happen. 00:09:02.997 --> 00:09:08.697 One of the things that has happened as I've gotten older is that I've realized that I wasn't as smart as I thought I was. 00:09:09.357 --> 00:09:11.307 And I keep having that realization. 00:09:12.937 --> 00:09:26.192 And I think one, one of those ways that manifests is that when I vote for somebody to be my representative, I. I want them to do more than represent my views. 00:09:26.192 --> 00:09:32.152 I want them to be a little bit more in informed about those views. 00:09:32.152 --> 00:09:37.067 I want them to maybe push back a little bit and maybe we can have some back and forth. 00:09:37.067 --> 00:09:48.402 And I'm talking about this in a macro level, just not an individual conversation but I'm hoping that the board, has some insights that I don't have as an individual citizen. 00:09:48.562 --> 00:09:55.012 What, what do the, what does a board member need to know about education I'll allow. 00:09:55.642 --> 00:10:00.862 So, so, so what's their level of expertise with regard to education? 00:10:00.862 --> 00:10:02.032 What should be expected? 00:10:02.347 --> 00:10:03.807 By somebody who votes them? 00:10:03.807 --> 00:10:05.397 Men who's represented being represented. 00:10:05.847 --> 00:10:10.587 This is a really important point, Jean is, and this is a point I think a lot of America gets wrong. 00:10:11.067 --> 00:10:14.637 The job of the board is to represent the vision and the values of the community. 00:10:14.697 --> 00:10:15.957 That is the unique area. 00:10:15.957 --> 00:10:17.217 The board has the expertise in. 00:10:17.547 --> 00:10:20.277 What is our community's vision for what children should know and be able to do? 00:10:20.457 --> 00:10:22.737 What are our non-negotiable values as a community? 00:10:23.007 --> 00:10:26.967 That is the unique expertise that the board brings to the organization. 00:10:27.547 --> 00:10:29.677 The board is not an education expert. 00:10:30.232 --> 00:10:31.972 The board is not a finance expert. 00:10:31.972 --> 00:10:33.232 The board is not a legal expert. 00:10:33.292 --> 00:10:34.972 The board is not a construction expert. 00:10:35.332 --> 00:10:37.042 The board is not a football expert. 00:10:38.422 --> 00:10:46.882 I, there are all these things that boards wind up having to vote on a way in on certainly, but none of that is the expertise of the board. 00:10:47.182 --> 00:10:51.082 That's the reason the board isn't the one going out and creating all these recommendations. 00:10:51.292 --> 00:10:57.532 It's professional staff who are experts in these area, who have expertise in these areas who are making the recommendations. 00:10:57.577 --> 00:11:00.937 And then the board's job is to evaluate the recommendations. 00:11:00.937 --> 00:11:06.242 Try to figure out what amount of alignment is there between this recommendation and the vision of values of the community. 00:11:06.892 --> 00:11:11.722 That's really the basis on which the board is making a decision, not on an expertise. 00:11:11.782 --> 00:11:15.562 Oh, well I know how to educate second graders in science. 00:11:15.792 --> 00:11:17.922 Ergo here is the decision to make. 00:11:18.072 --> 00:11:20.712 That's not the decision that the board is making. 00:11:20.892 --> 00:11:23.382 What the board is really, you know, inquiring into is. 00:11:23.642 --> 00:11:25.502 Okay, here's a recommendation from a superintendent. 00:11:26.312 --> 00:11:34.662 Does this honor the community's vision for what children should know and be able to do, or while honoring the community's non-negotiable values that can't be violated? 00:11:35.032 --> 00:11:36.487 And so because that's the case. 00:11:37.697 --> 00:11:46.847 As long as school board members are willing to put in the work and have the judgment necessary to represent the vision values of the community, then they're fully qualified to serve on the school board. 00:11:46.907 --> 00:11:53.687 You know, there's this misconception that, oh, well you have to have all of these credentials and all these other things to serve on the board, you know? 00:11:53.687 --> 00:12:01.187 But that's deeply problematic because the moment you say that, you're saying that there's a specific subsection of. 00:12:01.467 --> 00:12:10.127 Our parent body who are somehow disqualified from serving on the school board that they lack the necessary, you know, qualifications or pedigree to be on the school board. 00:12:10.187 --> 00:12:11.777 I think that's deeply problematic. 00:12:11.987 --> 00:12:28.967 And so the moment you recognize that it's case, you realize, okay, so if that's not the, if that's not the qualification, what is the qualification is they're willing to put in the work and they have the judgment necessary to represent the vision and values of the community, and they rely on the professional expertise of staff. 00:12:29.147 --> 00:12:34.487 To make recommendations and then they compare those recommendations with their understanding of the community's vision of values. 00:12:35.717 --> 00:12:46.277 You know, I can imagine well in my community where I live that people will run for a school board seat and as they their platform will include, well, I was teacher negotiating. 00:12:46.732 --> 00:12:49.342 Teacher, you know, I was on the student, I was on the teacher's union. 00:12:49.432 --> 00:12:57.382 I understand the negotiating process or you know, they have, other ed, educational, other educational, oh yeah, absolutely. 00:12:57.487 --> 00:12:58.492 E, e experiences. 00:12:58.642 --> 00:13:01.142 Is that a is that a positive or a negative? 00:13:01.172 --> 00:13:05.402 'Cause I also, I grew up in a small town and we had local business people. 00:13:05.807 --> 00:13:12.607 You know, on and it was a very microeconomic view of business. 00:13:12.997 --> 00:13:21.992 And I think it, I don't know if it helped or hindered making the decisions based on what you're talking about understanding understanding the role of the board. 00:13:22.802 --> 00:13:27.182 I mean, the way you gotta think about this is if I drove a school bus for 20 years. 00:13:28.277 --> 00:13:32.687 And I get on the school board, does that mean we no longer need a transportation director? 00:13:32.717 --> 00:13:35.567 'cause I know about this stuff, so I'll just make the calls. 00:13:35.787 --> 00:13:38.812 It, I mean, does that sound logical to you? 00:13:38.862 --> 00:13:41.772 And the moment it doesn't, the moment you realize that sounds absurd. 00:13:42.682 --> 00:13:45.352 Is the moment you realize, okay, then that's clearly not the job. 00:13:45.532 --> 00:13:46.312 So yeah. 00:13:46.312 --> 00:13:48.292 Are there board members with individual expertise? 00:13:48.292 --> 00:13:52.522 Some board members may be an attorney, some board members may have been an educator, some board members may have been an accountant. 00:13:53.242 --> 00:14:02.827 But the moment you realize we're not gonna rep, get rid of our CFO, just because one of the board members knows how to count to 10, like, we're not gonna do that. 00:14:03.007 --> 00:14:04.237 And so the moment you realize that's. 00:14:04.767 --> 00:14:05.967 That's not the game plan. 00:14:06.207 --> 00:14:12.117 It starts to inform that, okay, so clearly that's not the job of the board is to try to replace the CFO. 00:14:12.177 --> 00:14:20.637 It's not the job of the board to replace the transportation director, which means it's also not the job of the board to replace the teacher to try to replace the judgment. 00:14:20.712 --> 00:14:31.232 In capacity of the teachers with their own judgment and capacity, or the principals or the superintendent or the maintenance director or the athletic director then instead their job clearly has to be something else. 00:14:31.802 --> 00:14:43.972 The other thing that helps solidify this is if your child, you know, Gina, if your child was sick, would you want them to go to you or would you want them to go to a medical professional? 00:14:44.970 --> 00:14:45.260 Yeah. 00:14:47.221 --> 00:14:49.351 They have expertise. 00:14:49.711 --> 00:14:50.101 Yeah. 00:14:50.311 --> 00:14:51.091 I mean, that's their job. 00:14:51.091 --> 00:14:54.571 That's their job when it comes to the welfare of children. 00:14:54.576 --> 00:14:54.766 Yeah. 00:14:54.771 --> 00:14:55.021 Yeah. 00:14:55.021 --> 00:15:01.981 We want to connect the needs of children with the expertise of adults when it comes to the welfare of children. 00:15:01.981 --> 00:15:03.486 We want people with expertise in an area. 00:15:04.401 --> 00:15:14.331 Making the call in the same way that you wouldn't, you know, I'm sure you probably love your family members, but if your kid's sick, you're not taking 'em to the family members, you're taking 'em to somebody who actually has expertise. 00:15:14.336 --> 00:15:15.021 Right, right. 00:15:15.021 --> 00:15:16.581 And how do I help my kid get better? 00:15:16.821 --> 00:15:21.431 Well, it's the same thing is true in a school system is when we need when we. 00:15:22.046 --> 00:15:24.246 Food service managed effectively. 00:15:24.606 --> 00:15:27.456 We don't go to someone just because of they're on the school board. 00:15:27.456 --> 00:15:31.956 We say, okay, who actually has the most expertise and let's actually hire that person to make it their job. 00:15:32.326 --> 00:15:33.646 They'll be over food service. 00:15:33.886 --> 00:15:36.646 And so that's the moment we recognize that. 00:15:36.646 --> 00:15:39.256 We realize that none of those things are the function of the board. 00:15:39.436 --> 00:15:47.236 And so there may be board members who have some type of lived expertise, that's perfectly fine, but that's not actually why they got elected to the board. 00:15:47.886 --> 00:15:53.496 Nobody's ever elected someone to the board who goes, oh, well you, you know, drove a bus for 20 years, so we should elect you to the board. 00:15:53.496 --> 00:15:55.296 'cause then we won't need a transportation director anymore. 00:15:55.326 --> 00:15:56.706 Like, nobody's thinking that. 00:15:57.166 --> 00:16:00.766 And the way you know that nobody's thinking that is you ask yourself this question. 00:16:01.246 --> 00:16:08.486 If someone had all knowledge about education, they were the most amazing teacher in the state. 00:16:08.556 --> 00:16:11.046 They were the most effective educator ever. 00:16:11.466 --> 00:16:12.726 And they run for the school board. 00:16:14.246 --> 00:16:23.156 If you found out that they, you know, were a Nazi on the weekend or were in the k, KK on the weekends, would you still vote for that person to be on the school board? 00:16:23.796 --> 00:16:33.546 And the moment you say no, which I'm assuming you'd say no that points out that you're not actually selecting school board members for their educational expertise. 00:16:33.891 --> 00:16:45.771 You're selecting them for their values alignment, that you have a set of values in mind of what makes sense to you, and you want someone who's gonna represent your values on the school board, who on your behalf, will bring their values to bear. 00:16:46.071 --> 00:16:55.726 And so even if you had the best educator, the most talented, the most acclaimed educate in the world, if you found out that there was a radical values misalignment, you never vote for them. 00:16:56.676 --> 00:17:07.146 Because we intrinsically understand that when we go to the ballot box, what we're really looking for is someone to represent our vision and values, not someone who has operational expertise. 00:17:07.416 --> 00:17:10.346 So is operational expertise sometimes a bonus for board members? 00:17:10.346 --> 00:17:12.176 Yes, but it doesn't. 00:17:12.741 --> 00:17:23.301 It's not to be conflated with the idea that the board is now an education expert just because one out of seven board members has some educational expertise or that the board is now a transportation expert. 00:17:23.301 --> 00:17:26.691 Just 'cause one out of seven board members has some transportation expertise. 00:17:26.901 --> 00:17:29.276 You realize in that moment that's they have that. 00:17:30.051 --> 00:17:32.151 And that can be valuable, but it's not. 00:17:32.241 --> 00:17:35.121 It is fundamentally not the reason they were selected by the community. 00:17:35.661 --> 00:17:40.371 They were selected because of their perceived alignment with the vision and values of the community. 00:17:40.941 --> 00:17:43.701 And that tells you that is their expertise. 00:17:43.701 --> 00:17:46.641 And so they need to focus on tasks that require that expertise. 00:17:47.421 --> 00:17:57.141 The expertise of implementing the vision values of the community is a separate skill set entirely, and that's what you should really select a superintendent for and then let them do the work of implementation. 00:17:58.263 --> 00:17:59.873 A little bit about the work that you do? 00:18:00.143 --> 00:18:05.878 Again, I don't have any expertise at all with regards to school boards except for the fact that. 00:18:06.553 --> 00:18:07.783 I was always working for one. 00:18:08.563 --> 00:18:08.863 Yeah. 00:18:09.078 --> 00:18:11.798 And it's clear when boards are getting along. 00:18:11.798 --> 00:18:21.078 It's clear when they seem to be functioning well even, and they may not be functioning in the manner in which with the goals that, that you're espousing but at least they're functional. 00:18:21.938 --> 00:18:28.073 I have a feeling that you, so a lot of your business might be, you get called in when they're not functioning well. 00:18:29.223 --> 00:18:31.813 And you know, how do we get these guys to work together? 00:18:32.083 --> 00:18:32.893 What does that look like? 00:18:32.893 --> 00:18:34.273 What are some common issues? 00:18:34.273 --> 00:18:36.978 What are some things that you need to work on with school boards? 00:18:37.738 --> 00:18:38.278 Yeah. 00:18:38.328 --> 00:18:41.478 When we think about workability, there's really two for school boards. 00:18:41.478 --> 00:18:43.068 There's really two domains you wanna think about. 00:18:43.278 --> 00:18:51.468 There's professionalism and so that really answers the question, can this group of people function such that they can conduct the business of the institution? 00:18:52.043 --> 00:18:53.453 So that's the question of professionalism. 00:18:53.453 --> 00:18:57.773 Can they conduct themselves in a manner that allows 'em to conduct the business of the institution? 00:18:58.193 --> 00:19:04.973 Like if you have a bunch of board members who just hate each other and you know, they can't get along and they refuse to show up and they can never get a quorum. 00:19:05.243 --> 00:19:08.313 Well, we would say that as a highly unprofessional board. 00:19:08.313 --> 00:19:09.723 And we don't mean that in a pejorative sense. 00:19:09.723 --> 00:19:15.993 We just mean that in that they clearly aren't conducting themselves in a manner that allows 'em to conduct the business of the institution. 00:19:16.353 --> 00:19:27.488 And so when we think about a. When we think about a board you know, functionality or dysfunctionality, there's really these two dimensions and one of those professionalism, and that's what most people think about. 00:19:27.728 --> 00:19:30.188 And I'm actually, that's the one that I'm least concerned about. 00:19:30.488 --> 00:19:37.488 Like 99.9% of board members out here generally have, you know, a well-developed sense of professional behavior. 00:19:37.488 --> 00:19:38.478 They can manage that part. 00:19:39.018 --> 00:19:44.688 That that's not my top concern because the other dimension of functionality or dysfunctionality. 00:19:45.333 --> 00:19:52.963 Is effectiveness and where professionalism asks the question, can this body conduct itself in a way that allows business to be conducted? 00:19:53.503 --> 00:19:59.113 Effectiveness asks the question, can this body focus on improving student outcomes? 00:19:59.173 --> 00:20:00.703 Is its reason for existing. 00:20:01.748 --> 00:20:02.768 And so what happens? 00:20:02.768 --> 00:20:06.578 You have to have some way of looking at, is this board actually focused on children learning? 00:20:06.578 --> 00:20:10.388 Is it actually focused on children growing and what they know and are able to do? 00:20:10.598 --> 00:20:17.108 That's the effective range of the spectrum, and this is actually the much more dangerous area where many more boards fail. 00:20:17.288 --> 00:20:18.908 Many boards can be very professional. 00:20:18.908 --> 00:20:20.948 They conduct themselves and they conduct businesses. 00:20:20.948 --> 00:20:22.388 They use Roberts roll of war or whatever. 00:20:22.478 --> 00:20:23.593 They do all the professional things. 00:20:24.313 --> 00:20:29.293 But they never actually dial in to focusing on our children, actually learning, our children actually growing. 00:20:29.293 --> 00:20:32.233 Are they actually getting the promise of education that we owe them as a community? 00:20:32.893 --> 00:20:39.193 That is a core dysfunction of school boards, not the professionalism part. 00:20:39.193 --> 00:20:45.093 They can normally sort that out, like we all see the few times where that doesn't happen 'cause those blow up in the media. 00:20:45.513 --> 00:20:47.643 But honestly, that is a drop in the bucket. 00:20:47.703 --> 00:20:48.933 The vast majority of boards. 00:20:49.148 --> 00:20:56.948 Can actually manage the professional professionalism part where they're failing children is on the effectiveness part, that they're not actually dialed in. 00:20:56.948 --> 00:21:02.468 And so you'll watch hours and hours of board meetings and no one will ever have a conversation about is little AJ learning? 00:21:02.618 --> 00:21:06.278 Did little Gene actually leave here with more knowledge and skills that he arrived with? 00:21:06.598 --> 00:21:12.568 Instead it's conversations about, you know, what's the color of the football uniform and let's talk about the cheerleader constitution. 00:21:12.568 --> 00:21:19.118 And let's talk about, you know, did you know my cousin get a job and, you know, did you know my sister, you know, get a contract? 00:21:19.173 --> 00:21:22.523 And we get so focused in on all of these other things. 00:21:22.928 --> 00:21:26.918 And the conversation never makes it back to, did our students actually learn? 00:21:26.918 --> 00:21:31.298 Did they actually grow and what they know and are able to do, that's the core dysfunctional boards. 00:21:31.688 --> 00:21:36.938 Not that they fail to be professional, though, that happens at times the core dysfunctional boards is that they fail to be effective. 00:21:37.088 --> 00:21:43.418 They fail to focus on improving student outcomes, but you're working with school boards on outcomes. 00:21:44.448 --> 00:21:55.468 What is a baseline of knowledge that they need to have about instruction, about what happens in classrooms, curriculum, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to be able to make those big decisions. 00:21:56.488 --> 00:21:59.648 So, I know it sounds radical, but I would say they don't. 00:22:00.218 --> 00:22:13.808 Because that's, even if the, even if one or two or three of the board members have some insight in that, it would never be appropriate for the board as a whole to subjugate its collective judgment to the judgment of the two or three people on the board who have that as a background. 00:22:14.588 --> 00:22:18.098 So that can't be the driving factor of how the board's making decisions. 00:22:18.348 --> 00:22:19.818 Do we have the expertise or not? 00:22:19.818 --> 00:22:21.198 Because the moment that's true. 00:22:21.468 --> 00:22:26.238 That means if there's any topic that comes up where the board doesn't have expertise, that means they just shouldn't vote. 00:22:26.728 --> 00:22:26.938 Oh. 00:22:26.938 --> 00:22:32.518 Well, we don't have a mechanic on the board, so that means we shouldn't vote on anything related to repairing buses. 00:22:32.878 --> 00:22:34.303 No, of course they're still gonna vote on that. 00:22:34.523 --> 00:22:36.118 And so now the question is, okay, then. 00:22:36.243 --> 00:22:38.643 If they're still gonna vote on that, on what basis are they voting? 00:22:39.093 --> 00:22:40.623 And that's when it becomes clear. 00:22:40.743 --> 00:22:44.073 It's not based, it's on the expertise of that specific topic. 00:22:44.553 --> 00:22:46.323 It's based on some other expertise. 00:22:46.323 --> 00:22:46.893 Well, what is that? 00:22:47.043 --> 00:22:50.103 It's the expertise and the vision and values of the community. 00:22:50.223 --> 00:22:52.383 And so every time something comes up for the board. 00:22:52.483 --> 00:22:54.163 For their consideration. 00:22:54.403 --> 00:23:06.013 What the board has to do collectively is figure out what is the alignment between what is being asked here with the community's vision, which students should know and be able to do, and the community's non-negotiable values that have to be honored. 00:23:06.343 --> 00:23:11.203 That's the judgment call that the board is making, not do I like or dislike this strategy? 00:23:11.443 --> 00:23:13.183 Do I agree or disagree? 00:23:13.243 --> 00:23:14.533 Do I think this is the right strategy? 00:23:14.533 --> 00:23:17.323 The wrong strategy is that the strategy that I would pick? 00:23:17.398 --> 00:23:20.698 That's actually not the judgment call the board's making the judgment call. 00:23:20.698 --> 00:23:21.848 The board's actually making is. 00:23:22.603 --> 00:23:24.883 Is this in alignment with the community's vision and values? 00:23:25.363 --> 00:23:32.233 And because that is otherwise amorphous, the first step that a board has to take is actually have to write the vision values down and make 'em plain. 00:23:32.503 --> 00:23:40.703 And that's what we refer to as goals and guardrails, where the board is just very explicitly articulated smart goals about what students should know and be able to do. 00:23:40.913 --> 00:23:42.743 So then they have a real. 00:23:42.888 --> 00:23:45.978 Solid North Star for evaluating everything. 00:23:45.983 --> 00:23:47.928 You bet you bring before a superintendent. 00:23:48.288 --> 00:23:52.698 Show us how it aligns with accomplishing this smart goal about what students should know and be able to do. 00:23:52.938 --> 00:23:54.108 That's the judgment call. 00:23:54.508 --> 00:23:56.338 The boards are really called to make now. 00:23:56.338 --> 00:23:56.668 I get it. 00:23:56.668 --> 00:23:57.478 People are twisted. 00:23:57.688 --> 00:24:00.478 'cause I made the same mistake in a previous career. 00:24:00.478 --> 00:24:01.528 I was a computer programmer. 00:24:02.283 --> 00:24:07.593 And so trust and believe, Jean, I got on the school board and all of a sudden I was examining every piece of technology in the district. 00:24:07.683 --> 00:24:16.083 Hey, how come you know this computer monitor is 500 years old and you know, this accounting software is 800 years old, and well, what are we gonna do to get this together? 00:24:16.473 --> 00:24:18.603 And I spent all my time talking about the technology. 00:24:19.188 --> 00:24:25.353 I didn't spend any time asking what evidence do we have that children are actually learning and growing? 00:24:26.553 --> 00:24:27.843 And more importantly, I didn't ask. 00:24:27.843 --> 00:24:29.853 The really fundamental question is. 00:24:31.098 --> 00:24:34.458 Is the highest leverage thing that our children need right now. 00:24:34.998 --> 00:24:37.668 Better computer monitors and better accounting software. 00:24:38.538 --> 00:24:41.298 But I didn't ask those questions because my focus wasn't children. 00:24:41.478 --> 00:24:47.358 And the moment, Jane, that I was focused on the technology, who was my actual focus? 00:24:48.159 --> 00:24:49.149 Good students. 00:24:50.244 --> 00:24:51.174 Definitely was not the student. 00:24:51.444 --> 00:24:51.684 Yes. 00:24:51.699 --> 00:24:51.969 Yeah. 00:24:52.029 --> 00:24:55.004 It's in the moment that I was focused on talking about technology. 00:24:55.124 --> 00:24:56.084 Who was my actual focus? 00:24:56.159 --> 00:24:56.519 You. 00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:58.319 It was act, it was 100% me. 00:24:58.349 --> 00:24:58.589 Yeah. 00:24:58.589 --> 00:24:59.969 It had nothing to do with the children. 00:24:59.969 --> 00:25:01.139 It was 100% me. 00:25:01.139 --> 00:25:03.179 And this is the trap that so many board members fall into. 00:25:03.329 --> 00:25:04.709 It's like, Ooh, I have this expertise. 00:25:04.709 --> 00:25:06.209 I have this one thing that I can bring. 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:07.439 So I'll just focus on that. 00:25:07.739 --> 00:25:08.759 But that's about you. 00:25:09.349 --> 00:25:10.849 Being on the school board can't be about you. 00:25:10.849 --> 00:25:11.899 It has to be about the children. 00:25:11.899 --> 00:25:13.219 It has to be about what do they need. 00:25:13.369 --> 00:25:17.959 And so if I was really being focused on children, I wouldn't be thinking about what is my expertise? 00:25:17.959 --> 00:25:20.539 Oh, I was a teacher, I was a lawyer, I was a finance person. 00:25:20.779 --> 00:25:21.829 I was a computer programmer. 00:25:22.129 --> 00:25:29.959 I'd be thinking about what are the actual needs of our students that are most holding them back from the knowledge and skills they need to be successful in living a choice field life. 00:25:30.699 --> 00:25:40.239 And then I try to get those ranked out from what are the five most important and techno gene technology is gonna be on that list, but it's probably gonna be like number 50. 00:25:40.659 --> 00:25:42.249 It's definitely not gonna be the top five. 00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:55.209 And so if I'm actually focusing on student outcomes, then I abandon the thing that I know technology, which is number 50 on the list, and I devote myself to whatever items, number one, two, and three are. 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:02.289 That's what it means to be student outcomes focused, is that I betray my own expertise. 00:26:02.289 --> 00:26:06.529 I set aside my own ego the, my self-aggrandizement. 00:26:06.629 --> 00:26:18.089 I put that on the back shelf and instead of showing up and saying, here's what I know, here's my expertise, I devote myself to figuring out what is their children actually need that's most going to set them up for success. 00:26:18.914 --> 00:26:24.314 And if it happened to be computer monitors, gene, I don't know, maybe in your expertise you found the community. 00:26:24.554 --> 00:26:29.324 Community computer monitors was the critical aspect to get kids over the hump. 00:26:29.534 --> 00:26:31.334 That's just not been my experience. 00:26:31.634 --> 00:26:35.434 And so the moment you realize that the individual expertise, the board members bring. 00:26:36.199 --> 00:26:42.319 Can't be the focus of the board, that the focus of the board has to be, what is it that our children actually need? 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:43.519 What's most holding them back? 00:26:43.709 --> 00:26:46.079 And you try to figure out a prioritized list of those. 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:47.849 That's what all the community listening is about. 00:26:48.219 --> 00:26:51.549 That's why getting feedback and insights from the superintendent is so vital. 00:26:51.909 --> 00:26:56.199 And then you say, okay, these are the three most important things, then this is what we're gonna be focused on. 00:26:56.619 --> 00:26:59.619 And the, am I saying that computer monitors don't matter? 00:26:59.739 --> 00:27:00.669 No, I'm not saying that. 00:27:01.209 --> 00:27:03.999 I'm just saying they're not the top priority. 00:27:04.564 --> 00:27:05.224 For the board. 00:27:05.224 --> 00:27:08.254 And so the board needs to focus on whatever the prop priority is. 00:27:13.232 --> 00:27:17.692 So when you work with a board you go in I I'm wondering about the actual work that. 00:27:18.467 --> 00:27:30.287 That, that you do, because I can imagine, you know, what you just described, you're talking about how a board has to function what they, that they're doing, but you're also talking about what the relationship should be with the superintendent. 00:27:30.737 --> 00:27:30.947 Yeah. 00:27:30.947 --> 00:27:35.317 And then I'm wondering how far down the org chart do you go in your training? 00:27:35.317 --> 00:27:40.117 Because then you've got the soup who maybe he's the, maybe he's the guy who. 00:27:40.527 --> 00:27:54.082 You know, needs the new monitors, you know, and so, and so, so how far down, not how far down, what's the breadth of the training that you have to do, who do you need to bring in to make the board effective? 00:27:54.772 --> 00:27:58.612 Yeah, so definitely, you know, this is a keen insight on your park because the board definitely. 00:27:58.687 --> 00:28:00.097 It can't be effective on its own. 00:28:00.097 --> 00:28:07.757 It's really hard for a board to perform without you know, the respectful and appropriate support from their superintendent. 00:28:07.757 --> 00:28:10.367 And in general the staff of the school system. 00:28:10.787 --> 00:28:13.587 Partially because the board aren't obligated to be. 00:28:14.392 --> 00:28:16.432 Kind of technical experts in any particular area. 00:28:16.492 --> 00:28:22.552 So they do need support from folks who do have technical expertise in the various areas of school system operation. 00:28:23.632 --> 00:28:27.952 And so the board can't be really effective without its staff. 00:28:28.312 --> 00:28:29.602 But the converse is also true. 00:28:30.232 --> 00:28:32.782 It's really hard for a superintendent to outperform the board. 00:28:33.022 --> 00:28:40.072 Like if a superintendent has the capacity here, but the board's capacity is here and your superintendent's pretty much hanging out here from day to day. 00:28:40.412 --> 00:28:46.292 And so there is this mutuality where the board has to level itself up constantly looking, how do we grow, how do we improve? 00:28:46.532 --> 00:28:49.632 And the superintendents ideally doing the exact same thing. 00:28:49.632 --> 00:28:57.052 Constantly looking at how do I grow as a superintendent, how do I grow in my ability to implement the vision of values while the board is figuring out how to grow? 00:28:57.442 --> 00:29:00.172 And it's capacity to represent the vision of values. 00:29:00.292 --> 00:29:01.172 And so the, there is. 00:29:02.182 --> 00:29:04.192 This overlapping mutuality between the two. 00:29:04.642 --> 00:29:08.542 There is not an overlapping set of duties. 00:29:08.542 --> 00:29:13.202 However there are board duties and there are superintendent duties, and these don't actually overlap. 00:29:13.412 --> 00:29:19.592 The board makes decisions about what is within its sphere of control and it. 00:29:19.987 --> 00:29:21.307 It controls those things. 00:29:21.347 --> 00:29:22.667 It focuses on those things. 00:29:22.877 --> 00:29:31.897 And then anything that the board doesn't retain for itself, then it's delegating to the superintendent saying all these other things you have to go, this is what we hired you to go manage. 00:29:32.357 --> 00:29:33.617 And so that is there. 00:29:34.007 --> 00:29:38.177 There isn't a overlapping Venn diagram of board duties and superintendent duties. 00:29:38.177 --> 00:29:41.417 It is the board defining what is our work that we're gonna do. 00:29:41.957 --> 00:29:48.797 And then anything that the board doesn't claim for itself is board work that's explicitly delegating to the superintendent as superintendent work. 00:29:49.337 --> 00:29:52.097 And that's how the delegation of duties winds up shaking out. 00:29:52.247 --> 00:29:53.242 And it's not actually. 00:29:54.342 --> 00:29:55.662 All that complicated. 00:29:56.062 --> 00:30:03.682 Once you have a core idea that the thing that needs to drive the delegation of duties is expertise. 00:30:03.772 --> 00:30:10.332 One, once you can wrap your head around the idea that if my kid is not well, I want someone with expertise in that. 00:30:10.362 --> 00:30:18.552 Not I love my kid, but me loving my kid isn't the qualifying factor for who will take care of my kid when they are ill. 00:30:19.122 --> 00:30:20.652 It's who has expertise. 00:30:21.237 --> 00:30:22.407 And will love on my kid. 00:30:22.627 --> 00:30:24.517 Love isn't necessary, but just insufficient. 00:30:25.137 --> 00:30:29.797 And so the, in the same way that would be true in my home, the same is true in the school system. 00:30:30.022 --> 00:30:42.352 The board its way of loving children is to create the conditions where people with expertise in the various things that children need are brought to bear and given the freedom necessary to actually. 00:30:42.702 --> 00:30:48.652 Implement the vision values of the community while the board describes and dictates what the vision values are. 00:30:48.872 --> 00:30:53.762 But that's, that is a general high level overview of what the separation of duties are. 00:30:53.952 --> 00:30:55.692 But that it's derived from the board. 00:30:56.082 --> 00:31:01.752 And then the superintendent takes whatever is handed to them from the board and says, okay, then I've got the rest of this. 00:31:01.992 --> 00:31:06.687 I'll put together a team to go execute one of the, one of the main. 00:31:07.507 --> 00:31:15.017 You didn't say this, but this is, it's said all the time that one of the main decisions that the board has to make is the hiring of the superintendent. 00:31:15.022 --> 00:31:15.272 Mm-hmm. 00:31:15.932 --> 00:31:17.192 And then we have I don't know. 00:31:17.192 --> 00:31:19.352 I don't know what it was, what it is now. 00:31:19.352 --> 00:31:24.812 It used to be, you know, superintendents, the average tenure was like 18 months or 15 half, 15 minutes. 00:31:24.862 --> 00:31:25.132 Yeah. 00:31:25.372 --> 00:31:32.342 So, so how do we what does that have to say about the board or what does that have to say about how search firms. 00:31:32.747 --> 00:31:40.207 Bring candidates to a board and have you ever been involved in searching for a soup or just Oh yeah. 00:31:41.017 --> 00:31:41.797 Finding a soup. 00:31:41.827 --> 00:31:44.077 That's kind of what I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. 00:31:44.077 --> 00:31:44.197 Yeah. 00:31:44.497 --> 00:31:47.577 So superintendent search is a a major important topic. 00:31:47.767 --> 00:31:51.407 It's not the most important decision a board will make, but it it's probably number two or number three. 00:31:51.807 --> 00:31:52.137 For me. 00:31:52.137 --> 00:31:57.537 Clearly the single most important decision the board will ever make is what is the focus of the school system? 00:31:57.537 --> 00:31:59.977 What are the goals this school system's gonna pursue? 00:32:00.247 --> 00:32:02.227 What are the non-negotiable? 00:32:02.802 --> 00:32:07.992 Things that students must know and be able to do in the school system that have to be the priority for resource allocation. 00:32:08.022 --> 00:32:15.642 And so establishing the priorities, saying Here's what the goals are, here's what the guardrails are, clearly the most important tasks of the board. 00:32:16.182 --> 00:32:20.852 And then monitoring progress toward those is really the next, every single month. 00:32:21.572 --> 00:32:25.112 Having the superintendent bring evidence of are we making progress relative to the goals? 00:32:25.112 --> 00:32:27.842 And guardrails are really the most important things the board does. 00:32:28.247 --> 00:32:30.017 Then you know, after that on the list. 00:32:30.017 --> 00:32:32.637 Yeah, certainly hiring a superintendent is vital. 00:32:33.037 --> 00:32:41.767 But the board has to set the priorities first and then hire a superintendent who has, who can show some evidence that they've actually helped move the needle relative to the priorities. 00:32:42.007 --> 00:32:46.717 What, where most boards fail is they hire a superintendent to say, tell us what our community's priorities should be. 00:32:46.927 --> 00:32:48.397 This is a failure of governance. 00:32:48.517 --> 00:32:52.837 This is a complete abdication of the duties that are uniquely. 00:32:52.982 --> 00:32:54.452 Handed to school boards. 00:32:54.762 --> 00:33:00.252 The superintendent is not the community's representative, and so they shouldn't be thrust in that role 'cause they lack expertise. 00:33:00.552 --> 00:33:03.942 The board has expertise in representation, the superintendent does not. 00:33:04.402 --> 00:33:07.012 And so the most important task that the board has is. 00:33:07.372 --> 00:33:13.402 I just declaring here's what the priorities are, and then monitoring progress toward those priorities every single month without fail. 00:33:13.852 --> 00:33:18.172 But then next down that list, yeah, is certainly hiring a superintendent when it comes to hiring a superintendent. 00:33:18.502 --> 00:33:20.722 Then the board should say, here are the priorities. 00:33:20.962 --> 00:33:23.302 Show me some evidence that you've actually accomplished these. 00:33:23.302 --> 00:33:27.472 And if you can't show me evidence, then that's fine, but you can't be considered. 00:33:27.652 --> 00:33:32.212 And so it really requires the board to be really thoughtful about what would. 00:33:32.802 --> 00:33:38.182 Provide evidence that a candidate has actually moved the needle in the areas of our goals before. 00:33:38.402 --> 00:33:50.862 And it completely changes the way that you would go around, go about seeking out a superintendent because honestly, most candidates aren't going to be able to show meaningful evidence 'cause this work is really hard. 00:33:50.862 --> 00:33:53.022 And so most people haven't been successful at it. 00:33:53.317 --> 00:33:59.227 And so you're really looking for the needle in the haystack of who are people that have been successful, and they may not look like the person you look like. 00:33:59.227 --> 00:34:04.407 It may not be the person you know, or you know the person you're familiar with, you know, or the person in the shiny. 00:34:04.962 --> 00:34:06.222 You know, talks a good game. 00:34:06.522 --> 00:34:11.442 It may be this quiet person over here who's just, you know, put points on the board for kids year after year. 00:34:11.712 --> 00:34:21.242 That would probably be a better selection for superintendent, you know, than, you know, the loud talking, you know, bravado, you know, person who you know, you know, gets everybody fired up. 00:34:21.482 --> 00:34:27.422 But when you actually look under the hood, has never actually been in a role that helped them move the needle on improving student outcomes. 00:34:28.817 --> 00:34:41.277 So in hiring of superintendency superintendents, would that be something where a client might reach out to you in that, at that point in time, something that they wanted some additional support on? 00:34:41.457 --> 00:34:45.237 Yeah, and we certainly provide a lot of, we do not run superintendent searches at all. 00:34:45.237 --> 00:34:46.017 Yeah, we definitely don't do that. 00:34:46.167 --> 00:34:47.067 Never have, never will. 00:34:47.307 --> 00:34:52.957 But we definitely do coach, coach our boards that we're supporting, that we're coaching through the process. 00:34:52.957 --> 00:34:57.487 And, you know, we have a full document that we give them, you know, that describes here are all the types of decisions. 00:34:57.667 --> 00:35:02.707 We really want school boards to be in the driver's seat of superintendent search process. 00:35:02.927 --> 00:35:07.107 A lot of search firms in my opinion, we will put boards in the passenger seat. 00:35:07.387 --> 00:35:09.997 They're like, oh, well, we'll go out and we'll do all the listening for your community. 00:35:09.997 --> 00:35:10.627 I said, no. 00:35:11.212 --> 00:35:13.372 The board represents the vision, values of the community. 00:35:13.372 --> 00:35:17.272 The board should do the listening, but most search firms will say, oh, we'll go out and do it for you. 00:35:17.332 --> 00:35:19.072 And board will be like, Hey, well, let's work for us. 00:35:19.072 --> 00:35:19.792 That sounds great. 00:35:19.912 --> 00:35:20.872 It doesn't sound great. 00:35:21.112 --> 00:35:25.792 It's a horrible obligation of the duties of the board to go out and conduct the listening itself. 00:35:25.792 --> 00:35:31.582 You should not put anybody, not a coach, not a co consultant, not the staff, not anyone between the board. 00:35:31.857 --> 00:35:35.037 And its community when it comes to listening for the vision and values of the community. 00:35:35.277 --> 00:35:41.277 So that's just one example of where I think the classical relationship between boards and search firms, I think is just completely backwards. 00:35:41.367 --> 00:35:47.787 It's putting the search firm in the driver's seat and the board in the passenger seat, and that should absolutely be reversed. 00:35:47.787 --> 00:35:52.647 And so that's the type of coaching that we give boards is we, you know, you are the community's representatives. 00:35:52.647 --> 00:35:55.227 You should be driving this process with some support. 00:35:55.797 --> 00:36:02.677 From a search firm, if you want to use a search, you don't have to use a search firm, but if you're gonna use one just make sure they're in a supporting role and not in a driving role. 00:36:04.175 --> 00:36:11.085 You've worked with, you know, you work with large school districts, small school districts I know I live in a county. 00:36:11.085 --> 00:36:17.825 I think there are, there might be 35 school boards in this county with many single school districts. 00:36:17.825 --> 00:36:18.155 I mean, yeah. 00:36:18.935 --> 00:36:22.145 You know, because everybody, nobody wants to be told what to do. 00:36:22.565 --> 00:36:22.865 Yeah. 00:36:22.915 --> 00:36:34.355 So, so is there though, in your experience like a real aha moment when people realize like, wow this isn't at all what I thought it was gonna be. 00:36:35.180 --> 00:36:45.620 Oh, I think pretty much every school board member, if they're gonna be honest with themselves, or at least honest with you, will admit that there is some point after getting onto the school board where they realized. 00:36:46.985 --> 00:36:48.365 I have no idea what I'm doing. 00:36:48.755 --> 00:36:51.755 I campaigned convincing everybody vote for me. 00:36:51.815 --> 00:36:53.765 I know it's gonna take to save the children. 00:36:54.215 --> 00:36:55.265 And then I get on the school board. 00:36:55.325 --> 00:36:56.675 I don't know what I'm doing, gene. 00:36:56.675 --> 00:36:59.335 Like, I love the children and I didn't go out and deceive people. 00:36:59.335 --> 00:37:01.555 It's not like I was like, aha, I will convince them. 00:37:01.555 --> 00:37:03.105 No I really thought I knew something. 00:37:03.255 --> 00:37:08.235 It was only after I got on the board and served for a while that I realized I actually don't know anything about this role. 00:37:08.535 --> 00:37:09.495 None whatsoever. 00:37:09.555 --> 00:37:12.485 Not even a little bit what I knew about governing effectively. 00:37:12.655 --> 00:37:14.575 The day I got elected wouldn't have filled a symbol. 00:37:14.825 --> 00:37:17.075 But honestly I think that's true for most of us. 00:37:17.135 --> 00:37:28.685 You know, as school board members, we're just people who love children wanna make a difference, are willing to step up in most places, volunteer like I was, you know, in most places, school board members aren't paid who we're volunteers. 00:37:29.085 --> 00:37:36.325 And they, we just wanna make a difference for the kids in our community and don't really have a deep insight into what are the nuances of effective school board governance. 00:37:36.485 --> 00:37:47.285 For example, most board members when we get elected to the board, or appointed to the board, can't distinguish between professional and unprofessional behavior as distinct from effective in an effective behavior. 00:37:47.465 --> 00:37:53.525 They think, oh, well, if we are all just cordial, which is on the professional spectrum, that's synonymous with being effective. 00:37:53.915 --> 00:37:54.605 In turn. 00:37:54.665 --> 00:37:55.835 In reality, it is not. 00:37:56.190 --> 00:38:00.990 Just because you all get along doesn't at all mean that you are focused on our children learning. 00:38:01.170 --> 00:38:06.120 We can be very cordial very professional and highly ineffective at the same time. 00:38:06.120 --> 00:38:10.410 In fact, that's a, most boards would be described as professionally ineffective. 00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:19.120 That they are very professional in their behavior, that we conduct ourselves in a way that allows business to be done, but without ever actually focusing. 00:38:19.120 --> 00:38:23.050 Our attention is a governing body on our children learning, and so we're professional. 00:38:23.620 --> 00:38:24.580 Ineffective. 00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:36.140 And so that's the challenge I think most board members, myself included, certainly fall into, is that the discernment about what it really takes to be focused on student outcomes alludes a lot of us. 00:38:36.210 --> 00:38:39.210 And so part of, you know, my work and the work of my team and. 00:38:39.305 --> 00:38:48.465 You know, my book and all these other resources, you know, we try to make a lot of it freely available on the website is geared around just trying to get the word out to as many board members as possible. 00:38:48.555 --> 00:38:50.315 Hey here's what the actual job is. 00:38:50.315 --> 00:38:51.935 It's probably not what you think it was. 00:38:51.935 --> 00:38:52.565 It's definitely not. 00:38:53.865 --> 00:39:02.025 With the people at the grocery store who, you know, pull you aside, you know, Saturday morning, try, Hey, can you can you get my kid a part on the play? 00:39:02.355 --> 00:39:03.585 That's not the function of the school board. 00:39:03.585 --> 00:39:06.810 Hey, can you get my kid, you know, my the basketball coaches and play my kid? 00:39:06.810 --> 00:39:07.260 What can you do? 00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:07.980 I voted for you. 00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:08.535 What are you gonna do about that? 00:39:09.130 --> 00:39:12.260 Well, this isn't actually the job of the school board. 00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:16.420 And so what people, what we often think the job is it is what it is in reality. 00:39:16.420 --> 00:39:21.830 Something radically different Again I'm as guilty as anyone of that being true for me. 00:39:22.010 --> 00:39:22.790 Look, if I'm being. 00:39:23.140 --> 00:39:25.690 Completely honest, like children were harmed. 00:39:25.870 --> 00:39:34.010 By my first two years on the school board that I was so ignorant about kind of what is it the boards can do to make a difference for kids that boards can do to make a difference. 00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:35.390 I knew what a parent can do. 00:39:35.390 --> 00:39:36.800 I knew what a community member could do. 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:41.755 I knew what a volunteer could do, but I was ignorant about what can a board do that's gonna make the most difference for kids? 00:39:41.935 --> 00:39:43.010 And in my ignorance. 00:39:43.305 --> 00:39:50.655 And you know, it really wasn't until that third, fourth year that I really started to gain a powerful insight into kinda what does effective school board governance look like? 00:39:50.655 --> 00:39:55.575 Not just professional school board governance, but actually effective governance is focused on student outcomes. 00:39:55.575 --> 00:39:58.545 It really wasn't until my third year on the board that I started to. 00:39:58.895 --> 00:40:00.545 To really gain an insight into that. 00:40:01.025 --> 00:40:12.855 And what it means is that there are kids who are harmed in my first two years on the school board because of my failure to be able to discern what it is that a board can do that is most effective that's most focused on student outcomes. 00:40:13.575 --> 00:40:24.545 You know, I think that I keep saying that, you know, what we have when I look at education, at the discussion about education, that we seem to have several cults. 00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:26.850 You know, silos, whatever we wanna call it. 00:40:26.850 --> 00:40:26.910 Yeah. 00:40:26.910 --> 00:40:32.130 But I think they're, I think they're more because pe you know, educators are looking for a place. 00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:35.550 We've got a difficult job and they're looking for a place to belong. 00:40:36.120 --> 00:40:36.420 Oh, belonging. 00:40:36.420 --> 00:40:44.360 So, and so, you know, it's about tech or it's about you know, inquiry learning or it's about what, whatever it is. 00:40:44.780 --> 00:40:47.300 And so that's what I think. 00:40:48.005 --> 00:40:59.285 It's gotta make the job of the school board members so hard because those issues are complicated in themselves for professional educators thinking about it all the time. 00:40:59.975 --> 00:41:09.275 But they get moved into you know, so, so we've got you know, a political, I mean, we, I mean, it, it becomes political. 00:41:10.625 --> 00:41:13.065 Mixed with what's good for the students. 00:41:13.065 --> 00:41:15.225 You know, how are we gonna educate these things? 00:41:15.795 --> 00:41:22.635 Well, this is where it starts to be revealed that a lot of people think that like the power of the school board is setting policy. 00:41:22.635 --> 00:41:23.535 And we hear that a lot. 00:41:23.655 --> 00:41:25.575 And I used to hold that as a belief as well. 00:41:25.675 --> 00:41:27.925 Now I consider that to be mildly naive. 00:41:28.645 --> 00:41:30.600 Is that what the board puts on paper? 00:41:31.190 --> 00:41:31.970 Does matter. 00:41:32.060 --> 00:41:36.320 And policy is just essentially the written form of the community's vision and values. 00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:39.330 And so what the board adopts this policy does matter. 00:41:39.330 --> 00:41:52.710 I'm not suggesting it doesn't, I'm just saying it's not the most powerful way that the board impacts the institution because if what the board says doesn't match what the board does, guess which one staff is gonna follow? 00:41:53.741 --> 00:41:53.981 Yeah. 00:41:54.646 --> 00:41:56.146 And so this is the challenge. 00:41:56.266 --> 00:42:06.176 If what the board does, it's behavior and when we think of culture, we think of it as a set of behaviors of all the people in the system, what the board does. 00:42:06.941 --> 00:42:10.721 Is going to be more powerful than what the board says in the minds of staff. 00:42:10.911 --> 00:42:21.381 And so if there is a variation between, if there is, you know, any wiggle room between what the board is saying and what the board is doing, then people are gonna follow what the board is saying. 00:42:21.651 --> 00:42:25.431 You know what the board is doing rather than what they wrote down in policy. 00:42:25.771 --> 00:42:29.251 People will forget about the policy and they'll follow the behavior of the board. 00:42:29.251 --> 00:42:32.541 They'll follow what the board is actually doing. 00:42:32.721 --> 00:42:34.401 And you've probably noticed this with your own kids. 00:42:34.401 --> 00:42:38.151 It's like, Hey, I said do this, but then I went and behave this way. 00:42:38.271 --> 00:42:41.691 And then lo and behold, guess which one of those your child follows? 00:42:42.166 --> 00:42:56.776 And so what you say is only powerful if it matches what you're doing and when the two of those match, like this is heady stuff, but when there is a gap between them, when there's a gap between board behavior and board policy, people are gonna follow board behavior. 00:42:57.276 --> 00:42:58.326 Not board policy. 00:42:58.636 --> 00:43:04.251 And so what it means is the board behavior is a powerful lever that most boards miss out on. 00:43:04.401 --> 00:43:06.831 You know, so for example, you know, take what you're describing. 00:43:06.981 --> 00:43:11.981 There are all these other shiny things of the day that people can get enamored with. 00:43:12.401 --> 00:43:13.781 Well, with the board. 00:43:14.161 --> 00:43:25.231 Spends, its ti says, and policy, you know, these, this is, you know, student learning is the most important thing, but then spends its time in reality in board meetings, talking about all the shiny things. 00:43:25.831 --> 00:43:32.101 Well, then don't be surprised when the staff focuses this time on shiny things as well, because they're being incentivized to do so by the board's behavior. 00:43:32.701 --> 00:43:38.611 But have a board that says, here are the most important things that students don't wanna be able to do, and let's write those down as goals. 00:43:38.851 --> 00:43:39.961 Okay, that's policy. 00:43:40.801 --> 00:43:42.811 And the board matches that. 00:43:43.396 --> 00:43:54.966 Saying, with doing every single month monitoring progress toward those goals, every single month, we wanna see evidence of our is little AJ's ability to do X, Y, and Z growing or not? 00:43:54.966 --> 00:43:57.666 Is Little Jean's ability to do X, y, z, growing or not? 00:43:57.966 --> 00:44:11.886 When the board says that student learning is important, and then what it does demonstrates that student learning is important, you actually begin to create a cultural phenomenon in that school system where people are no longer incentivized to chase the latest. 00:44:12.106 --> 00:44:22.216 Silver bullet, which is the behavior that most boards tend to inspire, but instead they're incentivized to chase whatever is actually gonna move the needle for little AJ and Little Gene. 00:44:22.456 --> 00:44:26.416 Because the only thing the board's gonna look at is not the silver bullet, not the shiny thing. 00:44:26.656 --> 00:44:30.311 The board's gonna forsake that entirely and dial in on show me evidence. 00:44:30.311 --> 00:44:31.571 Are these children growing or not? 00:44:31.571 --> 00:44:34.201 Show me evidence that they're learning or not and where they're growing. 00:44:34.201 --> 00:44:37.371 Well, what worked and how do we do more where they didn't grow well, okay, great. 00:44:37.371 --> 00:44:38.001 What didn't work? 00:44:38.001 --> 00:44:38.811 And how do we pivot? 00:44:39.216 --> 00:44:46.446 When the board gets that dialed in its actions and its words match, that's when boards are most powerful. 00:44:47.651 --> 00:44:52.031 It's just another thing in education that is simple, but not easy. 00:44:52.901 --> 00:44:53.291 No doubt. 00:44:54.281 --> 00:44:59.556 I mean, I mean, you're, you haven't changed, you know, in, in the 45 minutes that we've spoken. 00:44:59.826 --> 00:45:01.956 I mean, it is clear what they need to do. 00:45:02.196 --> 00:45:04.026 And then the devil's in the details. 00:45:04.441 --> 00:45:05.281 And what are you gonna do? 00:45:05.281 --> 00:45:06.721 What are you not gonna do? 00:45:06.901 --> 00:45:07.201 Yeah. 00:45:07.261 --> 00:45:08.631 So, so very interesting. 00:45:08.661 --> 00:45:08.931 Aj. 00:45:08.931 --> 00:45:10.791 I could, Matt, I could talk to you all day. 00:45:11.586 --> 00:45:13.506 Do you have any questions for me, aj? 00:45:13.506 --> 00:45:14.436 I am curious. 00:45:14.616 --> 00:45:31.066 So now that I'm articulating this idea of boards represent the vision and values of the community and that when boards are really powerful, they're at their, the epie of the power when their words and deeds match. 00:45:31.921 --> 00:45:36.621 I'm wondering if you've experienced this now that you're getting a sense that might be kind of where the magic is. 00:45:36.621 --> 00:45:50.761 Have you seen a board that said this thing is important and that said student learning is important and in their actions made it clear that's the thing they were gonna be focused on in such a way that made it clear that's gotta be everybody else's focus as well. 00:45:50.761 --> 00:45:52.081 Have you seen an example of that? 00:45:52.381 --> 00:45:52.771 No. 00:45:53.491 --> 00:45:53.881 No. 00:45:53.881 --> 00:46:00.121 And I think the reason then, I think the reason is and I spent a lot of time in small towns working in small district, et cetera. 00:46:00.421 --> 00:46:08.141 I think we never got past what we brought up earlier of the individual board members bringing their particular expertise. 00:46:08.681 --> 00:46:19.501 Yeah, I mean, I remember at one time it was a school board member, a school board was just absolutely in, in public, just demeaned whatever the adjectives you wanna use. 00:46:19.861 --> 00:46:19.981 Yeah. 00:46:20.011 --> 00:46:25.301 And it was because they didn't purchase tires from a local vendor. 00:46:26.696 --> 00:46:27.116 You know? 00:46:27.121 --> 00:46:28.456 Yeah I agree. 00:46:28.466 --> 00:46:38.151 And so, and that is, if you're in, if you're in a smaller community, you know you're gonna go get a cup of coffee and you're gonna, you're gonna get an earful, you're gonna get an earful. 00:46:38.321 --> 00:46:41.391 And everybody's gonna wonder, you know, this is for our community. 00:46:41.391 --> 00:46:44.601 Who cares if you know, say 5%, yada yada. 00:46:44.661 --> 00:46:55.531 And so, I think, you know, we need to not only, educate the board members, but the populace needs to know, Hey this is this is the purpose of the board. 00:46:55.711 --> 00:47:07.001 And then the other thing that is you know, that I see that is really a hard hard to get to I guess was when you're talking about, you know, his little AJ learning. 00:47:07.451 --> 00:47:07.991 Okay. 00:47:08.081 --> 00:47:19.421 There's a lot of, again, there's a level of knowledge I think that board members have to be able to look at data, to be able to look at, you know, what we're doing you know, to make those judgements. 00:47:19.631 --> 00:47:25.691 Because, you know, the other thing that happens in board meeting meetings is everybody comes up. 00:47:25.691 --> 00:47:34.686 But, you know, let me show you our scholars and you know, our, you know, the fact that our scholars are, you know, at 20, 20% proficient, doesn't matter. 00:47:35.226 --> 00:47:36.186 Look at 'em, shine. 00:47:36.276 --> 00:47:50.026 And so there, there are these things that they need to get educated on without and having an opinion and having a firm opinion about, no, this is not working without, not looking like you hate kids. 00:47:50.476 --> 00:47:50.716 Yeah. 00:47:51.346 --> 00:47:52.881 Well, and the, and. 00:47:54.276 --> 00:48:01.476 It really is the obligation of the superintendent to present data to the board, one that is explicitly relevant to the board's goals. 00:48:01.476 --> 00:48:03.276 That's why the board has to adopt smart goals. 00:48:03.276 --> 00:48:05.336 So then it's not What data are we bringing? 00:48:05.336 --> 00:48:05.576 Nope. 00:48:05.576 --> 00:48:07.016 We've already predefined the data. 00:48:07.236 --> 00:48:08.166 The data is the data. 00:48:08.466 --> 00:48:12.786 Now we're just wondering, is the data point here on the line graph or is it here? 00:48:12.786 --> 00:48:13.266 Is it here? 00:48:13.266 --> 00:48:13.686 Is it here? 00:48:13.686 --> 00:48:14.796 Where on the line graph is it? 00:48:15.036 --> 00:48:17.586 It's really the super, and we coach the superintendent on this. 00:48:17.586 --> 00:48:21.966 It's their job to present data in a way that is really be accessible to any parent. 00:48:22.006 --> 00:48:23.416 Any community member. 00:48:23.696 --> 00:48:30.966 And so board members should not be expected to have a PhD in education leadership in order to discern our children are growing or not. 00:48:31.206 --> 00:48:41.386 It really needs to be presented simply enough that any community member could look at this and say, okay, it is clear to me that children are growing, or it's clear to me that children are stagnating or it's clear to me that children are declining. 00:48:41.816 --> 00:48:48.506 But there should not have to be special expertise on the part of board members to be able to discern that is on the part of the superintendent and their team. 00:48:49.171 --> 00:48:51.841 To present that in a way that is understandable and discernible. 00:48:51.841 --> 00:48:53.641 And if they don't, they have failed. 00:48:53.741 --> 00:48:57.641 And perhaps they just simply lack the expertise they portray themselves to have. 00:48:57.941 --> 00:49:06.551 A true expert can present information in a way that a layperson can understand the key elements of it without having to stop being a layperson. 00:49:06.801 --> 00:49:12.861 If someone can't do that, it's just that they're not truly an expert in the area that they've said that they've claimed to be an expert in. 00:49:13.131 --> 00:49:21.171 But this is one of the hallmarks of expertise is they can make it clear to layman without the person having to cease being a layman. 00:49:21.291 --> 00:49:25.176 And so that is on the superintendent, not on the board to I'm not opposed to the. 00:49:26.241 --> 00:49:29.151 Gaining the insights that you're describing, I think that's valuable as well. 00:49:29.721 --> 00:49:31.101 But it shouldn't be a requirement. 00:49:31.371 --> 00:49:38.461 You know, the requirement of digesting that and making it discernible falls to the superintendent as the board's selected education expert. 00:49:39.121 --> 00:49:39.931 Great distinction. 00:49:39.931 --> 00:49:40.591 Aj. 00:49:40.591 --> 00:49:44.461 Aj, where could people find out more about you if they wanted to learn more about your work? 00:49:44.571 --> 00:49:52.701 My website you can look me up@effectiveschoolboards.com and there's links to pretty much everything we've talked about here. 00:49:52.941 --> 00:50:02.401 You know, there's free resources on the website, you know, we just want people to have access to it, and if there's something that'll help you help kids you don't even have to email me and ask, can we use this? 00:50:02.401 --> 00:50:03.361 The answer is yes. 00:50:03.551 --> 00:50:09.871 We just want the word to be out there, and so we try to make all the resources freely available to folks who have a heart for making a difference for our students. 00:50:11.041 --> 00:50:13.771 Hey Jay, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. 00:50:14.191 --> 00:50:15.301 No, I appreciate you having me. 00:50:15.301 --> 00:50:17.296 I look forward to coming back sometime to continue. 00:50:18.096 --> 00:50:18.376 Absolutely. 00:50:20.146 --> 00:50:22.786 Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:50:23.086 --> 00:50:28.656 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:50:29.346 --> 00:50:39.426 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:50:39.836 --> 00:50:40.266 Tesscg. 00:50:41.256 --> 00:50:56.626 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.