WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:37.584 --> 00:01:39.474 Duke: All right, Corey, what are we talking about today? 00:01:40.014 --> 00:01:43.554 CJ: Man, dude, today we are just going to let this thing rip and 00:01:43.564 --> 00:01:44.844 we're gonna see where we end up, 00:01:45.194 --> 00:01:47.564 Duke: Yeah, man, there's no sense just sitting here half the night 00:01:47.574 --> 00:01:48.734 trying to figure out a title. 00:01:48.744 --> 00:01:51.004 It's like, we know what we want to talk about, but it's just, 00:01:51.624 --> 00:01:52.994 how do we put a title around it? 00:01:53.484 --> 00:01:53.974 CJ: right? 00:01:54.004 --> 00:01:57.464 And I'm sure by the time we finish the episode, ? We'll have something nice 00:01:57.464 --> 00:01:59.714 and catchy , for the upload, but right 00:02:00.014 --> 00:02:00.824 Duke: cross your fingers. 00:02:00.824 --> 00:02:03.014 , we got 40 minutes to figure out a title for this episode. 00:02:03.014 --> 00:02:05.249 Yeah, 00:02:05.614 --> 00:02:07.854 CJ: And look, look, I mean, the odds are with us, right? 00:02:07.854 --> 00:02:09.554 Because we have a great outro. 00:02:10.724 --> 00:02:10.994 Duke: true. 00:02:11.004 --> 00:02:11.754 We got a good intro too. 00:02:11.754 --> 00:02:12.446 Yeah. 00:02:12.446 --> 00:02:16.594 Shout out to Shillz Music, again. 00:02:16.604 --> 00:02:18.968 We'll put his link in the description below if you guys want to get to him. 00:02:19.259 --> 00:02:21.399 Some dope music for your assets as well. 00:02:21.864 --> 00:02:25.204 CJ: Yeah, I tell you, man, I, one of my biggest, but the only, probably 00:02:25.204 --> 00:02:27.994 the only regret that I have from knowledge is that we couldn't come out 00:02:28.184 --> 00:02:31.214 to CJ and live with the intro going, 00:02:31.819 --> 00:02:34.569 Duke: That would have been so good, but at least we asked though. 00:02:34.569 --> 00:02:34.809 Right. 00:02:34.809 --> 00:02:35.759 At least we asked. 00:02:35.944 --> 00:02:37.494 CJ: we did ask absolutely, 00:02:38.929 --> 00:02:39.999 . Duke: So where do we start on this one? 00:02:40.834 --> 00:02:42.994 CJ: you know, so do, was it last week? 00:02:42.994 --> 00:02:46.314 I think you, you made a post about, getting coaching. 00:02:46.959 --> 00:02:50.089 So maybe that's a good place to start that this week, look, you 00:02:50.089 --> 00:02:54.359 can't look, I am stuck in like a time dilation bubble, right? 00:02:54.359 --> 00:02:54.479 Like, 00:02:56.779 --> 00:02:59.149 I still think it's like the first week after knowledge. 00:03:00.269 --> 00:03:01.079 Duke: Yeah, it's funny. 00:03:01.079 --> 00:03:02.869 That was like 14 days ago. 00:03:03.389 --> 00:03:04.089 CJ: Wow. 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:05.189 Yeah. 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:06.399 Yeah, man. 00:03:06.409 --> 00:03:06.929 It 00:03:06.999 --> 00:03:08.469 , Duke: it was less than 3 weeks ago. 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:12.089 They took been for screens fundamentals course. 00:03:12.629 --> 00:03:14.929 I feel like that was last year. 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:17.649 CJ: It feels so long ago. 00:03:18.009 --> 00:03:20.739 Just like you said, it was less than two weeks ago. 00:03:20.739 --> 00:03:24.719 And, you know, I remember like we had, we all, we had dinner, right. 00:03:24.954 --> 00:03:25.234 Duke: Yeah. 00:03:25.559 --> 00:03:29.419 CJ: God, that conversation feels like it was last year. 00:03:30.249 --> 00:03:30.829 I don't know. 00:03:31.019 --> 00:03:34.839 Like, I think this, the post knowledge, like time dilation is real. 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:35.049 Right. 00:03:35.049 --> 00:03:38.509 And everybody, there's so much you're trying to do to lead up to it. 00:03:38.509 --> 00:03:41.659 I just think I like, once you get on the other end of it, it's just burnout city. 00:03:42.114 --> 00:03:45.174 Duke: Just memories of Star Trek DS9. 00:03:45.184 --> 00:03:46.704 No, it's not linear. 00:03:54.034 --> 00:03:55.254 Ah, those of you who know, know. 00:03:56.749 --> 00:03:57.399 CJ: Absolutely. 00:03:57.649 --> 00:03:58.319 Absolutely. 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:00.709 And then my favorite, , Star Trek memory with the lights. 00:04:01.834 --> 00:04:02.534 Duke: Oh, yeah. 00:04:02.634 --> 00:04:04.684 No, Picard holding it, holding the fork. 00:04:07.164 --> 00:04:07.524 Okay. 00:04:08.344 --> 00:04:08.544 Yeah. 00:04:08.544 --> 00:04:11.814 So getting back to the post about coaching I even got a few 00:04:11.824 --> 00:04:13.484 questions like, don't you coach? 00:04:13.484 --> 00:04:14.294 Why are you getting coaching? 00:04:14.634 --> 00:04:15.594 Because we need it. 00:04:16.284 --> 00:04:17.644 , I'm not ashamed of getting coaching. 00:04:18.174 --> 00:04:21.454 I'm not ashamed of going out into the market and saying, my 00:04:21.454 --> 00:04:26.104 knowledge is not up to my standard of what I want for these things. 00:04:26.524 --> 00:04:30.654 And I'm finding myself in more and more conversations where, , I 00:04:30.654 --> 00:04:31.924 know the high level stuff, right? 00:04:31.924 --> 00:04:33.994 And people want me to talk to them more about it. 00:04:34.634 --> 00:04:37.904 And , I'm getting involved in some sales calls with some organizations 00:04:37.904 --> 00:04:42.814 and getting customers closer to buying, but man, I really want to understand 00:04:42.814 --> 00:04:44.634 deeper how some of these things work. 00:04:44.634 --> 00:04:48.694 ? I think we can talk a lot about, I mean, just pick, pick a topic in service. 00:04:50.109 --> 00:04:50.999 CJ: Yeah, yeah. 00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:55.429 Duke: you can talk, a sales narrative without really like knowing 00:04:55.429 --> 00:04:56.549 how the component pieces work. 00:04:56.869 --> 00:04:58.059 I can't have one without the other. 00:04:58.069 --> 00:04:58.659 You know what I mean? 00:04:59.919 --> 00:05:03.409 CJ: Honestly, I think maybe even with sales being able to talk 00:05:03.769 --> 00:05:08.129 the, it probably benefits you a little bit to not necessarily know 00:05:08.369 --> 00:05:10.309 how much the nitty gritty, right? 00:05:10.359 --> 00:05:12.769 , and when you're going into those conversations, right? 00:05:12.769 --> 00:05:14.748 Because most of the people who you're talking to. 00:05:15.059 --> 00:05:18.989 Also don't know the nitty gritty and they aren't, they are so far removed 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:24.019 from being those people in day to day operations with the business, right? 00:05:24.019 --> 00:05:27.609 That if you get that deep, like you're probably starting to get 00:05:27.609 --> 00:05:29.469 them , to the eyes glazing over part. 00:05:29.659 --> 00:05:36.289 However, . There is a time where you transition from sales to execution. 00:05:36.339 --> 00:05:39.109 . And, once you've sold someone on something, , you do need to 00:05:39.109 --> 00:05:40.719 be able to look to deliver it. 00:05:41.529 --> 00:05:41.869 Right. 00:05:42.089 --> 00:05:42.949 Duke: absolutely. 00:05:43.339 --> 00:05:48.079 And I think that's where the fear driven aspect of it comes because , I hate 00:05:48.099 --> 00:05:49.749 the idea of being like a pretender. 00:05:50.229 --> 00:05:50.539 You know what 00:05:50.589 --> 00:05:51.079 CJ: right. 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:51.909 Yep. 00:05:52.139 --> 00:05:55.509 Duke: And it's like, oh, you talked all this stuff and you promised us all this 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.679 awesome, but how come you can't deliver? 00:05:57.679 --> 00:06:02.049 And so that's why I avoid certain modules that I'm not like super 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:05.739 expert at because I know it's hard for me and why would I risk? 00:06:06.269 --> 00:06:09.489 Even though I can talk about the pain and the value and roughly how to get 00:06:09.489 --> 00:06:12.939 there, I don't want to be caught with my pants down and just like, oh, I can't, I 00:06:12.999 --> 00:06:14.529 don't know which wrench to use on this. 00:06:16.304 --> 00:06:16.694 CJ: Yeah. 00:06:16.724 --> 00:06:19.399 Yeah, you are in that conversation with the C-suite, right? 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:23.029 Like it's, yeah, you can talk to all their pain points and talk about roughly 00:06:23.029 --> 00:06:26.119 how you're gonna get there, but then they invite their tech guy in, right? 00:06:26.119 --> 00:06:30.619 And their tech guy, happens to present, on the thing at Knowledge, and it's like, oh, 00:06:32.974 --> 00:06:33.194 you 00:06:33.464 --> 00:06:33.754 Duke: Yeah. 00:06:33.819 --> 00:06:38.859 CJ: like, And you wonder just now how far your knowledge will take you. 00:06:39.424 --> 00:06:39.884 Right? 00:06:40.344 --> 00:06:43.504 And, and so I think that is 1 of the things that makes you start to 00:06:43.504 --> 00:06:47.384 think about, if I'm going to be serious in this space on the platform, 00:06:47.804 --> 00:06:51.484 then I probably need to be serious about the space on the platform. 00:06:51.484 --> 00:06:52.904 Duke: Another thing that motivated that post. 00:06:53.369 --> 00:06:57.829 Is that when I talk to customers or even other service now resources 00:06:57.859 --> 00:07:01.439 about the stuff I'm good at reporting performance analytics to some extent, S. 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:01.619 P. 00:07:01.619 --> 00:07:01.799 M. 00:07:01.799 --> 00:07:06.039 general architecture stuff like, I realized that they learn in a way that is. 00:07:06.374 --> 00:07:10.584 Fundamentally different from docs now learning even self teaching. 00:07:10.584 --> 00:07:14.984 And I know that , if I said, how do I learn some of the 00:07:14.994 --> 00:07:16.264 stuff in the IRM umbrella, 00:07:16.264 --> 00:07:16.804 CJ: Right? 00:07:16.864 --> 00:07:20.864 Duke: also fun fact, I found out recently the GRC is under the IRM 00:07:20.914 --> 00:07:22.394 umbrella and not the other way around. 00:07:23.289 --> 00:07:24.409 CJ: Oh, really. 00:07:24.704 --> 00:07:25.124 Duke: Yeah. 00:07:25.719 --> 00:07:28.339 CJ: I thought Irem was just GRC renamed. 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.619 Duke: Yeah, that was, oh, man, we're both in the what? 00:07:32.779 --> 00:07:36.879 Yeah, so anyways, GRC is one of those modules. 00:07:36.949 --> 00:07:38.849 I hired somebody to do it for me back in the day. 00:07:39.029 --> 00:07:40.449 I was working for an organization. 00:07:40.449 --> 00:07:42.249 They had to do a PCI compliance on it. 00:07:42.269 --> 00:07:43.189 They wanted to use GRC. 00:07:43.189 --> 00:07:46.279 And so I took a stab at it, but I just said, no, let's bring in the experts. 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.119 I brought in back in the day. 00:07:49.744 --> 00:07:50.264 CJ: Oh, yeah. 00:07:50.274 --> 00:07:51.174 Remember those guys? 00:07:51.309 --> 00:07:51.579 Duke: Yeah. 00:07:51.579 --> 00:07:54.029 And I just let them do their thing and they were phenomenal at it. 00:07:54.029 --> 00:07:57.569 But again, I still get in conversations and, I'm just like, 00:07:57.569 --> 00:08:01.149 imagine being able to tell how close you were to passing an audit, even 00:08:01.309 --> 00:08:02.629 if an audit isn't happening now. 00:08:02.629 --> 00:08:04.469 They're like, whoa, tell us more about that. 00:08:04.469 --> 00:08:05.219 Come and do some stuff. 00:08:05.219 --> 00:08:05.979 I'm like, whoa. 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.559 I don't want to put my hands up and say, whoa, whoa, whoa anymore. 00:08:12.559 --> 00:08:14.739 I want to, yes, this is a price tag. 00:08:14.769 --> 00:08:15.239 Let's go 00:08:17.014 --> 00:08:18.389 CJ: Say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 00:08:18.484 --> 00:08:21.484 Did you think I was good at actually solving the problem? 00:08:21.574 --> 00:08:22.804 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 00:08:22.984 --> 00:08:24.634 I'm here to tell you about the problem, 00:08:26.049 --> 00:08:29.239 Duke: Again, I will say Dungeons and Dragons taught 00:08:29.239 --> 00:08:30.889 me more about doing service. 00:08:30.909 --> 00:08:35.649 Now than my 3 year college degree did being able to role play 00:08:35.649 --> 00:08:38.239 somebody and understand their thoughts and motivations and fears. 00:08:38.239 --> 00:08:41.409 And, um, anyways, I totally got off track here. 00:08:41.624 --> 00:08:43.754 CJ: No, but that's super important though, right? 00:08:43.854 --> 00:08:47.394 That's probably another episode, but I'm gonna, elevate that, right? 00:08:47.394 --> 00:08:51.174 , just so that we can come back to it in another ele in another episode, because 00:08:51.354 --> 00:08:52.704 being able to role play somebody's. 00:08:52.904 --> 00:08:57.274 Position and really just talks to have an empathy in the conversations. 00:08:57.454 --> 00:09:01.074 . Once you have empathy, then you can figure out like how to get to you, like 00:09:01.084 --> 00:09:02.654 how to get to that mutual solution. 00:09:02.654 --> 00:09:03.604 Everybody's trying to get to you. 00:09:03.754 --> 00:09:06.164 So anyway, different episode, but 00:09:06.189 --> 00:09:09.939 Duke: Yeah, so where I was going with this is eventually I found out that 00:09:09.939 --> 00:09:16.539 it's just the difference is a one on one time be with somebody who has been 00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:21.139 there done that you can ask questions to in real time, which, for all its 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:26.218 other strengths, you can't get from now, and you can't get from, , tens of 00:09:26.218 --> 00:09:29.868 thousands of unsorted YouTube videos, 00:09:30.923 --> 00:09:34.153 And, it shouldn't be a secret, like I gotta say this out loud, like 00:09:34.153 --> 00:09:37.703 there really just isn't a lot of guidance material from ServiceNow. 00:09:38.233 --> 00:09:40.583 You can go through a whole Now Learning course and not see, , this 00:09:40.583 --> 00:09:45.193 is how the whole thing works, soup to nuts, given process. 00:09:45.768 --> 00:09:48.278 CJ: So I totally agree with you on that, right? 00:09:48.278 --> 00:09:50.818 There is no, there's no road map. 00:09:50.868 --> 00:09:54.148 And I think that's because road maps are really hard to build on 00:09:54.148 --> 00:09:57.128 a platform that meanders, right? 00:09:57.148 --> 00:09:58.808 Like, you know what I mean? 00:09:58.818 --> 00:09:59.738 But, but a road 00:09:59.773 --> 00:10:00.603 Duke: exactly what you mean. 00:10:01.043 --> 00:10:01.353 Mm hmm. 00:10:01.808 --> 00:10:05.298 CJ: but a road map is how most people learn, right? 00:10:05.298 --> 00:10:07.958 Or at least how they start to learn. 00:10:08.158 --> 00:10:08.908 I think at some 00:10:08.933 --> 00:10:12.093 Duke: You mean, like, start at this concept and then roll up to this concept 00:10:12.328 --> 00:10:13.868 CJ: Yeah, right. 00:10:14.138 --> 00:10:17.148 But I think at some point, , the real learning starts when you get off the road. 00:10:17.598 --> 00:10:17.898 Right. 00:10:17.938 --> 00:10:20.808 And, , how do you navigate once you're off the road? 00:10:20.918 --> 00:10:23.768 Typically, you have a coach, right? 00:10:23.768 --> 00:10:27.608 Or you have someone in real time, , that can help you way find. 00:10:28.033 --> 00:10:29.543 Right to the destination. 00:10:29.843 --> 00:10:33.893 And I think, getting that coach, that mentor, is another word for it. 00:10:34.223 --> 00:10:38.733 Um, really does help no matter what level of your career you're at. 00:10:38.743 --> 00:10:42.668 I had a call with, , the mentor , that I have now, I say now, but I've had, 00:10:42.708 --> 00:10:44.208 , this person as a mentor for a long time. 00:10:44.508 --> 00:10:47.388 , and the relationship there is so great. 00:10:47.388 --> 00:10:51.908 , I was in a bit of a crisis and, , I sent over a text message , and 00:10:51.908 --> 00:10:54.973 this person was like, no, , just call me right now, . Okay, great. 00:10:55.523 --> 00:10:59.838 And then like you said, duke being able to ask those questions in real time and 00:10:59.838 --> 00:11:02.568 get answers in real time and being able to 00:11:02.758 --> 00:11:06.778 navigate to the solution through different angles and through different 00:11:06.778 --> 00:11:10.628 lenses with someone who, you know, has been there and done that. 00:11:10.638 --> 00:11:14.008 And you can respect and, you know, has the knowledge and the 00:11:14.008 --> 00:11:17.328 understanding of where you are and knows you well enough to, right? 00:11:17.328 --> 00:11:18.308 , it's just the next level. 00:11:18.448 --> 00:11:20.318 ? And, I love now learning, right? 00:11:20.318 --> 00:11:24.368 I send people there all the time, but, , I can't get that part of it 00:11:24.368 --> 00:11:25.588 from now learning and that's okay. 00:11:25.588 --> 00:11:27.208 I don't think now learning is trying to be that. 00:11:27.853 --> 00:11:28.053 Duke: Yeah. 00:11:28.103 --> 00:11:29.343 you got to scale somehow, 00:11:30.153 --> 00:11:30.573 CJ: Yeah. 00:11:31.053 --> 00:11:34.943 Duke: but and having said, well, I know, like, service now has to scale, 00:11:35.353 --> 00:11:36.923 but I have no interest in scale. 00:11:37.313 --> 00:11:37.723 CJ: Yes. 00:11:38.793 --> 00:11:42.953 Duke: like, I want for me to be Maximally important, 00:11:44.663 --> 00:11:45.143 CJ: Yeah. 00:11:45.193 --> 00:11:48.793 Duke: to deliver maximum value and therefore , I've just got 00:11:48.793 --> 00:11:54.743 to be top of the game and I can use my hours trying to build it. 00:11:54.743 --> 00:11:57.973 , even if you had pristine clarity on how this thing is built in service now, 00:11:58.003 --> 00:12:00.953 it's still not obvious how it is used. 00:12:02.363 --> 00:12:02.873 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:02.893 --> 00:12:06.753 Duke: tell, you can't tell by looking at it, how resource management And you 00:12:06.753 --> 00:12:08.783 sure as hell can't tell by looking at it. 00:12:09.018 --> 00:12:12.738 How the strategic portfolio management interface works. 00:12:13.743 --> 00:12:14.103 CJ: Right. 00:12:14.698 --> 00:12:16.928 Duke: It is so incredibly difficult. 00:12:16.948 --> 00:12:21.318 There is so many pieces of foundational data that you need ahead of time. 00:12:21.638 --> 00:12:31.068 It's almost like, um, like , you can't eat a baked pie one ingredient at a time. 00:12:31.963 --> 00:12:32.623 see what I mean? 00:12:32.703 --> 00:12:33.163 , CJ: I do. 00:12:33.583 --> 00:12:36.553 Duke: like you, you can't have apple pie, you can't have just the apples. 00:12:36.553 --> 00:12:37.483 You can't have just the sugar. 00:12:37.483 --> 00:12:38.323 You can't have just the cru. 00:12:38.323 --> 00:12:39.823 It's always like, it's all in there. 00:12:40.213 --> 00:12:43.363 You can't have soup, you can't have chili one ingredient at a time. 00:12:43.363 --> 00:12:44.233 It's all in there now. 00:12:44.933 --> 00:12:50.113 And you've gotta find a way to consume it all for it to make sense. 00:12:51.778 --> 00:12:54.308 CJ: Yeah, , I want to take this a little bit back to, , the 00:12:54.308 --> 00:12:57.788 concept of scalable learning versus, , individualized learning. 00:12:57.788 --> 00:13:01.288 ? Because , I think I'm starting to, fill a, like, a narrative come together 00:13:01.288 --> 00:13:03.168 around this topic as we talk about it. 00:13:03.478 --> 00:13:03.788 Right. 00:13:03.788 --> 00:13:05.978 And now learning is that scalable learning, right? 00:13:05.978 --> 00:13:08.548 This is the learning for 80 percent of the population. 00:13:08.548 --> 00:13:12.568 80 percent of the people can drop here and now learning and get a 00:13:12.568 --> 00:13:17.598 good enough understanding of service now to move to that next step. 00:13:17.988 --> 00:13:21.308 And what's the next step that individualized learning, right? 00:13:21.458 --> 00:13:22.678 That's when you get a coach. 00:13:22.708 --> 00:13:23.938 That's when you get a mentor. 00:13:24.068 --> 00:13:25.888 . That's when you start to do the hands on. 00:13:26.108 --> 00:13:29.208 That's when you really find all the other resources out there that are going 00:13:29.208 --> 00:13:34.298 to attack the gaps and the knowledge that you still have left over from, 00:13:34.368 --> 00:13:35.858 going through the scalable learning. 00:13:35.859 --> 00:13:39.178 Yeah, 00:13:40.658 --> 00:13:43.358 Duke: it's, it's to say it's a gap is like. 00:13:44.488 --> 00:13:48.228 Imagine you have a skeleton and what else of the human being is missing? 00:13:48.238 --> 00:13:49.118 Like all of it, 00:13:51.518 --> 00:13:54.478 like you have a skeleton there that gives you the vague outline of what 00:13:54.478 --> 00:13:58.518 a human being might, you know, you get the size and shape, but for 00:13:58.518 --> 00:14:03.568 it to be like the missing pieces is the vital essence of the thing. 00:14:04.618 --> 00:14:05.678 CJ: yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:14:06.188 --> 00:14:09.608 And I mean, and so, like, when you're done with now learning, you 00:14:09.608 --> 00:14:11.018 know what a business rule is, right? 00:14:11.018 --> 00:14:16.448 But like, how does that help you in the service now world, right? 00:14:16.468 --> 00:14:20.348 Very minimally is in my experience, right? 00:14:20.388 --> 00:14:21.958 Oh, I know how to write a business rule. 00:14:22.138 --> 00:14:23.378 I know what it's for. 00:14:23.648 --> 00:14:27.758 But clients aren't calling me to write business rules for them, they're calling 00:14:27.758 --> 00:14:29.648 me to solve problems for them, right? 00:14:29.658 --> 00:14:30.948 Sometimes they're calling me for therapy. 00:14:30.948 --> 00:14:31.688 That's cool too. 00:14:31.858 --> 00:14:33.168 But, the point is, right? 00:14:33.168 --> 00:14:36.188 Like you said, this is the skeleton, the business rule is the part that 00:14:36.188 --> 00:14:38.098 I'm going to drape everything else on. 00:14:38.623 --> 00:14:40.043 Right, but nobody's seeing it. 00:14:40.523 --> 00:14:43.613 Duke: Yeah, whether you're a beginner in the game or you're super advanced in the 00:14:43.613 --> 00:14:48.233 game, , I think it's just, there's no way to propel yourself beyond a certain point 00:14:48.243 --> 00:14:50.343 than to have coaching and mentorship. 00:14:51.323 --> 00:14:51.873 CJ: I agree. 00:14:51.973 --> 00:14:53.373 I've said it, , a ton of times. 00:14:53.373 --> 00:14:55.883 I think I said it, , and when we did see Janet Duke live and 00:14:55.883 --> 00:14:58.053 knowledge a couple weeks ago, right? 00:14:58.053 --> 00:15:00.443 I'm a product of mentorship my entire life, right? 00:15:00.443 --> 00:15:01.683 Like , from being from a kid. 00:15:02.073 --> 00:15:03.513 All the way through like my I. 00:15:03.543 --> 00:15:03.763 T. 00:15:03.763 --> 00:15:08.083 career, like my first career, right to through my service now career 00:15:08.133 --> 00:15:10.183 and do you one of my mentors, right? 00:15:10.193 --> 00:15:13.623 When I was working incorporating, you were like, Hey man, you got the skills. 00:15:13.623 --> 00:15:17.443 You need to come on in and get out here and do the service now thing with me. 00:15:17.483 --> 00:15:20.063 And I'm like, no man, I'm not that good. 00:15:20.063 --> 00:15:20.923 And , you persist there. 00:15:20.923 --> 00:15:21.113 Right. 00:15:21.113 --> 00:15:23.593 Eventually I listened to you and I'm glad I did. 00:15:23.613 --> 00:15:24.213 So thank you. 00:15:24.453 --> 00:15:24.683 Right. 00:15:24.683 --> 00:15:25.843 Probably don't say that enough. 00:15:26.033 --> 00:15:26.863 Uh, but. 00:15:27.833 --> 00:15:30.473 Duke: I'm glad that you did too, because you got out there and now you came 00:15:30.513 --> 00:15:33.273 so you could do the same thing to me when I'm like, I'm not good enough. 00:15:37.643 --> 00:15:38.883 CJ: true, that's fair enough. 00:15:38.883 --> 00:15:39.873 Payback is a mother. 00:15:39.873 --> 00:15:40.203 Ain't it? 00:15:40.443 --> 00:15:41.203 Duke: Yeah, yeah. 00:15:41.673 --> 00:15:45.653 So, that's a good thing we got going on the mutual the joint mentorship thing. 00:15:46.043 --> 00:15:47.163 CJ: No, absolutely. 00:15:47.163 --> 00:15:47.403 Right. 00:15:47.413 --> 00:15:50.453 The point being is that I wouldn't be nearly as good as a, at a lot of the 00:15:50.463 --> 00:15:54.563 things that I'm good at, if I didn't have mentors to help me , through the woods. 00:15:54.683 --> 00:15:55.183 And. 00:15:55.853 --> 00:16:00.093 I just think it's important , that we recognize that we can't know everything 00:16:00.303 --> 00:16:04.313 and that we don't know everything in there and that there are people out there who 00:16:04.323 --> 00:16:06.143 know certain things better than we do. 00:16:06.643 --> 00:16:10.813 . And when you identify that you have a gap in your learning and that you want 00:16:10.813 --> 00:16:16.453 to actually skill up in that area, it's okay to go out there and seek help. 00:16:16.973 --> 00:16:17.223 Right. 00:16:17.223 --> 00:16:18.873 It's okay to seek that mentorship. 00:16:18.883 --> 00:16:20.213 It's okay to seek coaching. 00:16:20.333 --> 00:16:24.113 . And as a matter of fact, what I would say , is the opposite. 00:16:24.223 --> 00:16:25.023 It's not cool. 00:16:25.123 --> 00:16:29.023 If you know, you got this gap, . And you're not doing anything to fill 00:16:29.023 --> 00:16:31.393 it, now you're stuck, right? 00:16:31.393 --> 00:16:35.343 And you're being willingly stuck and why don't you ever want to do that? 00:16:36.643 --> 00:16:39.293 Duke: Can we, I want to go slightly off topic. 00:16:39.888 --> 00:16:40.368 And 00:16:40.393 --> 00:16:41.233 CJ: We always do it. 00:16:42.178 --> 00:16:43.908 Duke: we'll put a link to this episode. 00:16:43.908 --> 00:16:45.648 Remember the episode, like how to ask for help. 00:16:46.443 --> 00:16:47.063 CJ: Oh, yeah. 00:16:47.163 --> 00:16:47.643 Oh, yeah. 00:16:47.948 --> 00:16:51.938 Duke: think we can't talk about mentorship without remembering the things we talked 00:16:51.938 --> 00:16:55.798 about in that episode specifically about , how do you get mentorship? 00:16:55.828 --> 00:16:58.818 Because I think probably one of the worst things to do is 00:16:58.818 --> 00:17:01.028 , message a stranger on LinkedIn. 00:17:01.528 --> 00:17:03.138 And say, I need you, to mentor me 00:17:04.823 --> 00:17:05.333 CJ: I don't know. 00:17:05.423 --> 00:17:07.473 I mean, do you think that's one of the worst things you could do? 00:17:07.973 --> 00:17:09.553 I don't know if that's one of the worst things you can 00:17:09.608 --> 00:17:11.328 Duke: if you want that person to mentor you. 00:17:11.368 --> 00:17:11.898 Yeah. 00:17:11.928 --> 00:17:14.408 I mean, it could be that I'm just an asshole. 00:17:14.408 --> 00:17:14.698 Right? 00:17:14.698 --> 00:17:14.888 Like, 00:17:15.843 --> 00:17:16.223 CJ: Duke. 00:17:16.223 --> 00:17:17.693 No, I would definitely not say that. 00:17:18.028 --> 00:17:18.508 Duke: nobody. 00:17:18.508 --> 00:17:22.028 So, like, I'll get messages from people , and they'll just be like, Hey, I see 00:17:22.028 --> 00:17:24.128 your posts and I want you to mentor me. 00:17:24.158 --> 00:17:27.058 I'm , are you sure you understand exactly what you asked me to do? 00:17:28.653 --> 00:17:29.123 CJ: Yeah. 00:17:29.208 --> 00:17:32.198 Duke: Like, when I go , to people to be their mentor, like, first 00:17:32.198 --> 00:17:36.373 of all, I'll ask in public, , It's like I did on that thread. 00:17:37.103 --> 00:17:39.893 , but if I know somebody's got what I need. 00:17:40.428 --> 00:17:46.558 Right, or is it like I go with supplication, you know what I mean? 00:17:46.798 --> 00:17:52.348 Like, hat in hand, humble and also ready to pay 00:17:53.293 --> 00:17:53.833 CJ: Right. 00:17:54.028 --> 00:18:00.258 Duke: ready to pay because I've mentored a lot of people and it's not 00:18:00.278 --> 00:18:02.738 like I just I can pull these answers. 00:18:03.313 --> 00:18:08.303 Out of my head, I spend significant amounts of time and energy, , thinking 00:18:08.343 --> 00:18:09.953 about the questions that they ask me. 00:18:11.323 --> 00:18:11.693 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:12.033 --> 00:18:12.473 That's true. 00:18:12.593 --> 00:18:16.403 Duke: And , I'll sacrifice billable time to do it sometimes. 00:18:16.403 --> 00:18:16.913 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:17.223 --> 00:18:21.383 Duke: And, , I'm happy I've given a lot of that away for free a lot. 00:18:21.773 --> 00:18:25.513 A lot I know there's people out there who say that, you know, I'm, I'm a bottom 00:18:25.513 --> 00:18:30.333 feeder and I'm preying on the week and whatnot, but I give a ton of time to. 00:18:31.113 --> 00:18:31.823 Uh, 00:18:32.583 --> 00:18:32.833 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:32.833 --> 00:18:33.543 We'll talk about that 00:18:33.553 --> 00:18:34.493 Duke: Yeah, it's been said. 00:18:35.703 --> 00:18:39.943 It's been said, but just think about the potential shortcuts. 00:18:41.113 --> 00:18:46.973 , if I had the choice between paying somebody 500, right? 00:18:47.073 --> 00:18:51.303 To give me 2, 4, 5, , whatever the math works out to, but it's admittedly 00:18:51.303 --> 00:18:59.236 pay 500 or , slave away, groping around in the dark, hoping you're 00:18:59.246 --> 00:19:01.246 getting it for two or three weeks. 00:19:01.376 --> 00:19:02.576 That's crazy talk. 00:19:03.336 --> 00:19:03.826 CJ: Right. 00:19:04.736 --> 00:19:06.196 , Duke: what is your time worth? 00:19:07.976 --> 00:19:08.946 Like, my time? 00:19:09.076 --> 00:19:10.646 I can recover that 500. 00:19:10.646 --> 00:19:13.736 Like, God, like, God, thank you for blessing me that way. 00:19:13.886 --> 00:19:16.526 But so can a lot of other people in the ServiceNow community. 00:19:17.836 --> 00:19:22.116 And it's like, what would you rather be doing with that 10 hours a time 10 hours 00:19:22.116 --> 00:19:24.666 a time or five, even five hours a time? 00:19:24.676 --> 00:19:27.746 I tell you what I'd be doing, , spending time with my family, spending time with 00:19:27.746 --> 00:19:30.596 my hobbies, like, fucking watching TV, 00:19:30.646 --> 00:19:31.386 CJ: Decompressing. 00:19:31.386 --> 00:19:31.996 Yeah. 00:19:32.176 --> 00:19:32.406 Yeah. 00:19:32.406 --> 00:19:33.266 No, absolutely. 00:19:34.586 --> 00:19:37.356 So Duke, I'm going to push back just a little bit on this. 00:19:37.406 --> 00:19:39.716 , and not so much on the merit of the meat , of it. 00:19:39.716 --> 00:19:43.286 It's just, I think I say I differentiate between mentorship and coaching. 00:19:43.756 --> 00:19:47.816 . And so where I would say is like for coaching, absolutely 00:19:47.816 --> 00:19:48.806 come with wallet in hand. 00:19:49.241 --> 00:19:49.631 Right. 00:19:49.751 --> 00:19:50.171 Like, yeah. 00:19:50.171 --> 00:19:55.131 I'm, I don't expect you to put in a, the level of time and quality effort 00:19:55.371 --> 00:20:00.761 that it takes to coach me up on a subject so that I now know at least 00:20:00.761 --> 00:20:02.561 enough to be, you know what I mean? 00:20:02.771 --> 00:20:03.011 Right. 00:20:03.061 --> 00:20:05.471 Duke: do in the whole, like, a coach tells you what to do. 00:20:05.471 --> 00:20:07.681 A mentor answers your questions. 00:20:08.041 --> 00:20:08.611 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:08.641 --> 00:20:12.601 And mentors there to kind help guide you through , the storm a little bit. 00:20:12.601 --> 00:20:13.621 I show up, I got a torch. 00:20:14.026 --> 00:20:14.296 Right. 00:20:14.296 --> 00:20:16.726 Here's the road, you're going to come to a fork. 00:20:16.756 --> 00:20:19.406 I'm going to give you some advice on which way to go. 00:20:19.406 --> 00:20:22.576 You ultimately like the one that take the road that you want, right? 00:20:22.776 --> 00:20:25.336 That to me , is a little bit of a different relationship from a 00:20:25.336 --> 00:20:29.056 coach who's going to like, you know, all right, here we go. 00:20:29.056 --> 00:20:31.086 This is the things are the things you need to know. 00:20:31.391 --> 00:20:35.331 And I'm going to, this is the book that I wrote for you and this is the, , and 00:20:35.331 --> 00:20:36.671 these are the plates that you need to be. 00:20:36.671 --> 00:20:39.081 And I'm going to sit here with you and I'm going to make you do it right. 00:20:39.081 --> 00:20:41.761 We're going to practice three times a week, . And you're going to, and I'm going 00:20:41.761 --> 00:20:46.391 to be on your butt, , and until you get it right, like all of that, like that to me, 00:20:46.411 --> 00:20:49.191 , like that's where the wallet comes to, . And, and that's not to say that people 00:20:49.191 --> 00:20:50.921 don't pay for mentorship too, right. 00:20:50.921 --> 00:20:52.551 I do think , there's a lot of situations. 00:20:53.626 --> 00:20:56.516 Join, you know, just join dedicated groups, right? 00:20:56.516 --> 00:20:59.766 Where there's a lot of idea exchange and mentorship given 00:20:59.776 --> 00:21:01.076 around and things like that. 00:21:01.386 --> 00:21:04.056 But you know, that's how I look at a little bit of a 00:21:04.056 --> 00:21:05.456 difference between the two. 00:21:06.821 --> 00:21:07.711 Duke: Yeah, I can buy that. 00:21:07.721 --> 00:21:10.361 , I think they're different verbs on purpose 00:21:11.176 --> 00:21:12.666 CJ: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:21:13.401 --> 00:21:16.001 Duke: and , I imagine when somebody says, this is my mentor, somebody 00:21:16.001 --> 00:21:20.251 I call once in a while, somebody to have coffee with and talk or coffee. 00:21:20.891 --> 00:21:23.771 But when I have a coach, it's like somebody showing up with a clipboard 00:21:23.771 --> 00:21:28.641 and timer, you know, and, you know, and an optimized diet plan. 00:21:28.641 --> 00:21:31.671 And it's like, they've spent time working on you. 00:21:31.671 --> 00:21:31.736 Yeah. 00:21:32.431 --> 00:21:32.811 CJ: Yes. 00:21:32.956 --> 00:21:34.196 Duke: you not there, you know what I mean? 00:21:34.776 --> 00:21:35.396 So, no, I 00:21:35.421 --> 00:21:37.781 CJ: And with, and with you in mind, right? 00:21:38.681 --> 00:21:42.331 Like would you, and I specifically, like, this isn't a thing that they, 00:21:42.591 --> 00:21:46.151 that they might do this thing for everybody, but they give everybody 00:21:46.151 --> 00:21:47.761 an individualized experience. 00:21:48.591 --> 00:21:49.121 Absolutely. 00:21:49.661 --> 00:21:50.211 Duke: I'm with you. 00:21:50.311 --> 00:21:50.771 I'm with you. 00:21:51.771 --> 00:21:52.151 We're there. 00:21:52.756 --> 00:21:55.336 CJ: So that's the way , that I think about the team. 00:21:55.336 --> 00:21:56.596 I think about coaching, man. 00:21:56.596 --> 00:21:58.606 I think about, , like you say, what was it? 00:21:58.656 --> 00:22:00.226 I guess 2 weeks ago, 3 weeks ago. 00:22:00.226 --> 00:22:03.146 Now you were getting, , you were in a class with, , in forest learning 00:22:03.146 --> 00:22:04.856 all the intricacies of the CMDB. 00:22:05.136 --> 00:22:06.336 That's coaching right there. 00:22:06.336 --> 00:22:10.176 Like that guy is going to build you up and he's going to, he's going to kick 00:22:10.176 --> 00:22:13.376 you out at the end of the, at the end of the class, and you're going to know 00:22:13.376 --> 00:22:16.876 way more about CMDB than you did when you went in and when you went into it. 00:22:16.876 --> 00:22:17.866 And that's worth the money, 00:22:18.081 --> 00:22:23.571 Duke: Well, yeah, I, so I consider what Ben did in that context training, 00:22:24.186 --> 00:22:24.556 CJ: okay. 00:22:24.781 --> 00:22:27.541 Duke: because we showed up and he delivered a package of material. 00:22:28.256 --> 00:22:28.896 CJ: All right. 00:22:29.036 --> 00:22:29.446 Oh, 00:22:30.071 --> 00:22:35.121 Duke: Because it's Ben, and Ben and I are friends, like Ben does coach me. 00:22:35.531 --> 00:22:37.461 He just doesn't coach every, you know what I mean? 00:22:37.726 --> 00:22:38.196 CJ: yeah. 00:22:38.246 --> 00:22:38.686 Yeah. 00:22:39.011 --> 00:22:40.141 Duke: stream going on with him. 00:22:40.141 --> 00:22:41.201 And what about this? 00:22:41.201 --> 00:22:41.781 What about that? 00:22:41.821 --> 00:22:46.421 And where he gives me things to think about a lot of things to think about. 00:22:46.421 --> 00:22:47.921 I've been 00:22:48.086 --> 00:22:49.766 CJ: So this is getting interesting, right? 00:22:49.766 --> 00:22:51.406 Cause now we've got three levels. 00:22:51.656 --> 00:22:51.816 Right. 00:22:52.046 --> 00:22:53.046 We've got training. 00:22:53.066 --> 00:22:53.846 We got coaching. 00:22:53.916 --> 00:22:54.706 We got mentorship. 00:22:55.846 --> 00:22:56.216 Right. 00:22:56.236 --> 00:22:59.336 And, , we talk about, , the invisible problems in service. 00:22:59.336 --> 00:23:02.886 Now, I think maybe this was kind of a, one of those things that was a bit, maybe 00:23:02.886 --> 00:23:05.266 if not invisible, definitely unnamed. 00:23:05.746 --> 00:23:07.936 . In terms of where do you get help? 00:23:08.416 --> 00:23:09.896 , what kind of help are you looking for? 00:23:09.906 --> 00:23:11.786 And where's the appropriate place to get it? 00:23:16.671 --> 00:23:18.891 Right, because we talked about like now learning earlier 00:23:18.891 --> 00:23:20.041 this , in this episode, right? 00:23:20.041 --> 00:23:22.011 And we talked about how that's like scalable learning, right? 00:23:22.011 --> 00:23:23.761 That's training right now. 00:23:23.761 --> 00:23:24.581 Learning is training. 00:23:24.591 --> 00:23:27.091 You're going to go there and you're going to get like, there's going 00:23:27.091 --> 00:23:30.341 to as a package of materials and now learn is going to deliver that. 00:23:30.341 --> 00:23:30.721 Right? 00:23:31.036 --> 00:23:33.286 And then, , you're going to have coaching and coaching is going 00:23:33.286 --> 00:23:34.496 to be a different sort of thing. 00:23:34.686 --> 00:23:37.896 It might even be a package of materials, but it's going to be individualized 00:23:37.896 --> 00:23:39.186 package of materials, right? 00:23:39.396 --> 00:23:41.276 There's going to be delivered to you in a certain way. 00:23:41.276 --> 00:23:43.256 That's going to help you specifically. 00:23:43.676 --> 00:23:47.006 If it's done well, anyway, yeah, definitely more of a path. 00:23:47.056 --> 00:23:51.276 ? And then I think mentorship is that thing that over arcs that whole thing. 00:23:51.276 --> 00:23:51.536 All right. 00:23:51.566 --> 00:23:54.146 So now I've gotten , the training, I've gotten the coaching, right? 00:23:54.146 --> 00:23:57.536 Like I'm, I feel like I'm getting close to that level of mastery, but maybe 00:23:57.536 --> 00:23:59.186 there's still something holding me back. 00:23:59.266 --> 00:24:01.416 . And now I'm going to go get the gray beers, right? 00:24:01.536 --> 00:24:04.656 That's where, , I'm going to go talk to the gray beers and figure out 00:24:04.656 --> 00:24:07.450 how to, how do I turn this beer? 00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:07.846 Great. 00:24:07.846 --> 00:24:09.429 And that's where mentorship 00:24:09.516 --> 00:24:12.256 Duke: I think it's very likely in this space that like the 00:24:12.286 --> 00:24:15.966 mentorship and coaching is likely in the same body too, right? 00:24:16.321 --> 00:24:18.361 CJ: And it can definitely can be right. 00:24:18.361 --> 00:24:20.301 I think it definitely can be right. 00:24:20.311 --> 00:24:22.701 , I know you do, you deliver coaching all the time and you 00:24:22.701 --> 00:24:23.901 deliver mentorship, right. 00:24:24.141 --> 00:24:27.211 I don't do a whole lot of coaching, but I do a lot, a lot, a lot more mentorship. 00:24:27.606 --> 00:24:27.936 Right. 00:24:28.206 --> 00:24:31.256 Duke: you know, with your, um, what is that group they call it at 00:24:31.686 --> 00:24:32.396 CJ: oh yeah, yeah. 00:24:32.396 --> 00:24:33.496 The communities in tech group. 00:24:33.506 --> 00:24:33.666 Yeah. 00:24:33.666 --> 00:24:34.606 Now for the culture. 00:24:34.656 --> 00:24:38.456 There's a lot of, there's a lot of ways to do this. 00:24:38.486 --> 00:24:45.946 And I think it's key, , that you know what you need so that you get, so that 00:24:45.946 --> 00:24:50.426 you go the path that you need, , that you go on the path in which you need to get. 00:24:50.986 --> 00:24:51.526 Duke: yeah. 00:24:52.216 --> 00:24:56.286 If somebody just comes and says, hey, I need coaching on service now. 00:24:56.326 --> 00:24:58.776 And what do you mean coaching on service now? 00:24:58.776 --> 00:25:00.766 It's like, well, I just want to be better at service now. 00:25:00.776 --> 00:25:03.076 It's like, like, you need to think a little bit more 00:25:03.076 --> 00:25:04.496 about what you're asking for. 00:25:04.956 --> 00:25:05.656 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:05.706 --> 00:25:11.446 Duke: Even if it is, I don't know enough what to ask, and I even, I found 00:25:11.451 --> 00:25:16.221 myself in that position, having to eat my own medicine on that coaching call 00:25:16.226 --> 00:25:19.131 I, I did a couple weeks ago because I was like, one of the things I'm 00:25:19.131 --> 00:25:25.051 really interested in learning , in a coaching scenario is, GRC and I rm. 00:25:25.386 --> 00:25:27.926 And big, huge shout out to fusion three consulting. 00:25:27.926 --> 00:25:32.446 A couple of them reached out, like asking nothing in return, like just 00:25:32.446 --> 00:25:35.996 set up an hour call with me and they're like, well, first of all, , do 00:25:35.996 --> 00:25:39.046 you know what you're asking for when you're asking for GRC and IRM, like 00:25:39.676 --> 00:25:42.356 IRM , is a umbrella in which GRC exists. 00:25:42.356 --> 00:25:45.416 But they actually gave me a framework in order to ask better questions. 00:25:45.416 --> 00:25:48.806 And the next conversation is they're going to break down the whole IRM world for me. 00:25:48.806 --> 00:25:53.076 And it's basically, I'm going to pick which path along that to start going, 00:25:53.086 --> 00:25:54.636 because you can't take it all on at once. 00:25:54.786 --> 00:25:55.386 CJ: Right. 00:25:55.951 --> 00:25:59.601 Duke: And so they taught me how to ask better questions about, what's 00:25:59.621 --> 00:26:01.011 going to be in my IRM journey. 00:26:01.091 --> 00:26:02.891 And I'm going to start at GRC, I guess, but 00:26:04.036 --> 00:26:04.516 CJ: Yeah. 00:26:04.616 --> 00:26:04.936 Yeah. 00:26:04.936 --> 00:26:08.576 And I think , that right there also goes into the heart of, , coaching versus 00:26:08.936 --> 00:26:10.566 mentorship versus training, right? 00:26:10.566 --> 00:26:14.316 , I don't know that training teaches you, , which the, how 00:26:14.316 --> 00:26:15.696 to ask the questions better. 00:26:16.521 --> 00:26:16.851 Duke: right. 00:26:16.851 --> 00:26:19.871 It's just a delivered package of, oh, man. 00:26:20.561 --> 00:26:21.821 CJ: Yeah, no, you're right. 00:26:21.821 --> 00:26:25.021 It's just a deliberate package , of material that's designed to 00:26:25.021 --> 00:26:26.271 get you to a certain end point. 00:26:26.601 --> 00:26:30.301 . And it's designed to work for a certain percentage of people, right? 00:26:30.311 --> 00:26:32.651 , training should work for about 80 percent of the people. 00:26:32.801 --> 00:26:36.471 . And it should get about 80 percent of the people to about this point. 00:26:36.941 --> 00:26:38.051 Also though. 00:26:38.101 --> 00:26:39.051 . And this is the key. 00:26:39.261 --> 00:26:41.911 It should get them to the point where they're aware enough. 00:26:42.241 --> 00:26:45.681 Of what they're not aware of, so that they then can start to figure 00:26:45.681 --> 00:26:49.051 out, like, how to ask the better questions, but training itself. 00:26:49.101 --> 00:26:51.301 . Doesn't teach you how to ask those, questions better, right? 00:26:51.301 --> 00:26:54.771 It just, it gives you the awareness that you're probably not asking them 00:26:54.771 --> 00:26:57.061 correctly, or you probably got some gaps. 00:26:57.061 --> 00:26:58.991 You need to start figuring some things out. 00:26:59.331 --> 00:27:01.221 , there might be more layers to this, right? 00:27:01.221 --> 00:27:05.551 There's, Maslow's Maslow's a pyramid that I love so much, but there might 00:27:05.551 --> 00:27:07.121 be more layers to this pyramid. 00:27:07.121 --> 00:27:10.161 . But right now I'm looking at like training, coaching, mentors, mentorship, 00:27:10.401 --> 00:27:13.951 going up in a pyramid sort of way in order to get to mastery. 00:27:14.831 --> 00:27:16.991 But then what are you thinking about that Duke? 00:27:17.466 --> 00:27:18.316 Duke: No, I love it. 00:27:18.336 --> 00:27:18.776 I love it. 00:27:18.796 --> 00:27:20.456 I'm just, um, okay. 00:27:21.736 --> 00:27:23.016 Shall we rock the boat a little? 00:27:23.121 --> 00:27:24.351 CJ: Yeah, let's go for it, man. 00:27:24.511 --> 00:27:24.941 Let's do it. 00:27:25.046 --> 00:27:25.266 Duke: right. 00:27:26.146 --> 00:27:31.726 All right., So far the conversation has tilted around individuals, right? 00:27:31.931 --> 00:27:32.241 CJ: Yep. 00:27:32.616 --> 00:27:34.936 Duke: I'm an expert, but I'm not an expert in this, and I 00:27:34.936 --> 00:27:36.056 want to gain expertise in that. 00:27:36.816 --> 00:27:40.366 I'm not an expert, like I'm a beginner, and I just need, you know, help getting 00:27:40.366 --> 00:27:42.066 even to more specific scenarios. 00:27:43.996 --> 00:27:49.456 And for a long time, the scope of what I could see was very much around 00:27:49.696 --> 00:27:53.286 us, you know, ServiceNow experts and 00:27:53.886 --> 00:27:54.386 CJ: right. 00:27:55.336 --> 00:28:00.956 Duke: in this particular contract that I'm on, it is really, really 00:28:01.096 --> 00:28:07.026 hit home to me how, , if we think it's bad for us, brother, It is 00:28:07.026 --> 00:28:11.946 so, so desperate out there for the customers right now, I know I'm going 00:28:11.956 --> 00:28:13.066 to lose a lot of friends saying this. 00:28:13.086 --> 00:28:13.116 Okay. 00:28:13.456 --> 00:28:13.806 But 00:28:13.826 --> 00:28:14.516 CJ: All right, now keep 00:28:14.566 --> 00:28:17.546 Duke: but it's for the health of the ecosystem, right? 00:28:17.906 --> 00:28:21.676 Because I think this has share price reducing impact. 00:28:22.476 --> 00:28:26.666 In the very near future, if we can't all find a plan together for how to 00:28:26.666 --> 00:28:33.086 address it, is that it's one thing for me, independent service now consultant 00:28:33.156 --> 00:28:35.316 who can work whenever I want to. 00:28:35.406 --> 00:28:37.456 So I can just say, I can take an afternoon off and I'm going 00:28:37.456 --> 00:28:38.676 to learn GRC or whatever, 00:28:39.276 --> 00:28:39.936 CJ: right. 00:28:40.386 --> 00:28:42.806 Duke: but think about where our customers are at. 00:28:43.266 --> 00:28:44.796 They're paying a million dollars a year. 00:28:45.331 --> 00:28:51.891 On this product they may or may not have partners or staff or whatever, 00:28:51.891 --> 00:28:54.411 but the people who have signed the checks for the people who are 00:28:54.411 --> 00:29:00.151 responsible for delivering outcomes at the customer, how on earth do they know 00:29:00.351 --> 00:29:02.891 how this stuff is supposed to work? 00:29:04.986 --> 00:29:06.186 CJ: Yeah, I mean they don't 00:29:06.721 --> 00:29:06.981 Duke: And I'm 00:29:07.016 --> 00:29:07.046 CJ: Okay. 00:29:07.121 --> 00:29:09.301 Duke: saying like, take a, take a now learning course. 00:29:09.361 --> 00:29:13.151 Yes, do that, but you can still come out with now learning, take 00:29:13.151 --> 00:29:15.861 the now learning for SPM and see if you come up being able to say like. 00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.959 here's how ideas should work and here's how demand should work. 00:29:20.109 --> 00:29:24.469 And here's the 2 of them in concert and we're putting a resource plan on that. 00:29:24.509 --> 00:29:29.239 And oh, shoot, we can't put that resource plan on because that user is already. 00:29:29.739 --> 00:29:31.009 Fully allocated to something, 00:29:31.681 --> 00:29:32.281 CJ: Yeah. 00:29:32.356 --> 00:29:36.166 Duke: And then we're going to convert these two projects and 00:29:36.236 --> 00:29:39.186 we're going to convert some other demands into not projects. 00:29:39.396 --> 00:29:40.836 And what are our options there? 00:29:40.836 --> 00:29:42.006 And when do we use them? 00:29:42.316 --> 00:29:45.666 And then now that we got all this stuff going through that ancient form 00:29:45.666 --> 00:29:53.587 list interface, how do we really, truly use any of the 5 or 6 Different 00:29:53.837 --> 00:29:58.817 workspaces and specialized interfaces in SPM, like literally, how is it done? 00:29:59.427 --> 00:30:02.697 Like the last YouTube video on SPM was done 6 months ago. 00:30:03.071 --> 00:30:05.321 where is the guidance? 00:30:05.791 --> 00:30:11.086 And so, for the customers out there, , consider breaking the playbook a little 00:30:11.086 --> 00:30:16.476 bit, find the one or two people who are super, super experts in that one 00:30:16.476 --> 00:30:18.876 process area and get coaching from them. 00:30:19.336 --> 00:30:22.506 Not a full implementation, get coaching from them so they can teach you. 00:30:22.506 --> 00:30:22.906 Listen. 00:30:23.191 --> 00:30:24.701 Here's how it should work. 00:30:24.921 --> 00:30:28.461 So you have a clear and accurate idea before you can go to the partners 00:30:28.461 --> 00:30:30.211 and tell them to deploy for you. 00:30:31.131 --> 00:30:33.401 CJ: Man, dude, now you're talking my playbook here, right? 00:30:33.411 --> 00:30:36.581 And, I'm running across , a lot of ServiceNow customers, who 00:30:36.921 --> 00:30:42.011 have this same issue, They own the platform, they own a number of apps. 00:30:42.531 --> 00:30:48.641 That come with the platform and, , there's not a whole lot that they can do or let 00:30:48.641 --> 00:30:52.741 me rephrase that they, the things that they are doing, , that they're doing 00:30:52.741 --> 00:30:56.511 those things rather well, but there might be a whole 50 percent of other 00:30:56.511 --> 00:30:58.811 things that they have access to that. 00:30:58.811 --> 00:31:02.021 They either they're not using or not using well, or they 00:31:02.021 --> 00:31:03.221 might not even know they have. 00:31:03.801 --> 00:31:04.071 Right? 00:31:04.071 --> 00:31:07.901 Like sometimes the platform changes hands a few different times and, nobody 00:31:07.901 --> 00:31:14.991 knows who we actually bought, and , what's available and a lot of words to say that 00:31:15.011 --> 00:31:20.481 I think that there's room to help folks understand the platform better and get the 00:31:20.481 --> 00:31:23.105 value out of the platform, that they want. 00:31:23.105 --> 00:31:23.155 Right. 00:31:23.530 --> 00:31:26.000 And that they thought , they were signing up for, . And I just don't 00:31:26.010 --> 00:31:30.590 think the, I don't think consulting, I don't think consulting scales, and I 00:31:30.600 --> 00:31:31.790 think that's the major problem, right. 00:31:32.210 --> 00:31:33.550 That's a whole nother episode too. 00:31:33.850 --> 00:31:37.430 But , when consulting becomes like a business that's supposed to scale across 00:31:37.470 --> 00:31:39.740 dozens or hundreds of customers, right? 00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:44.100 Like I think you end up, , having to sacrifice things like customer enablement, 00:31:44.340 --> 00:31:48.520 . When, and when I say customer enablement, I mean, actually customer competency and 00:31:48.800 --> 00:31:50.570 process areas that they were sold, right. 00:31:51.155 --> 00:31:51.435 Right? 00:31:51.435 --> 00:31:54.955 You just don't have the time and the bandwidth and the space, and it's not 00:31:54.955 --> 00:32:00.024 profitable enough to have one of the big four, spend, three, four months with you 00:32:00.234 --> 00:32:03.804 to walk you through learning SPM, right? 00:32:04.234 --> 00:32:07.204 Duke: yeah, there is a calcified process for how this stuff. 00:32:07.544 --> 00:32:09.104 Usually goes in the industry too. 00:32:09.104 --> 00:32:09.424 Right. 00:32:09.454 --> 00:32:13.864 So via some kind of sales mechanism, we are convinced that this is 00:32:13.974 --> 00:32:15.104 going to answer a lot of our, 00:32:16.274 --> 00:32:16.704 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:16.944 --> 00:32:21.690 Duke: and so it's like, yeah, let's add another 300, 000 to my contract. 00:32:22.694 --> 00:32:25.274 now that we've got this thing that we've seen demoed a bunch, 00:32:25.441 --> 00:32:26.551 talking like hours of demo 00:32:27.041 --> 00:32:27.381 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:28.048 --> 00:32:30.071 Duke: weeks, months go by. 00:32:30.261 --> 00:32:32.401 And it's like, well, we need somebody to help us deploy it. 00:32:32.481 --> 00:32:35.451 And so now somebody comes in and says, well, what are your requirements? 00:32:36.101 --> 00:32:36.411 And 00:32:36.476 --> 00:32:37.696 CJ: I don't know, Duke. 00:32:37.696 --> 00:32:38.086 I don't know. 00:32:38.086 --> 00:32:44.086 Yeah. 00:32:44.351 --> 00:32:46.841 Duke: experience with this once it was ITBM at the time. 00:32:46.841 --> 00:32:49.261 It's SPM now, but it was my first deployment of that. 00:32:49.458 --> 00:32:49.578 And. 00:32:49.819 --> 00:32:52.279 I was asked by a friend to help do the bid. 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:54.839 Cause they weren't really pleased with who they had bidding. 00:32:55.849 --> 00:32:59.529 came in there and I just said like, I don't know, this is how I would do it. 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:05.329 And they came back and they were like, this is like way more expensive 00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:07.509 than the second highest bidder. 00:33:07.899 --> 00:33:09.059 what do you know that they don't? 00:33:10.509 --> 00:33:10.889 CJ: Yes. 00:33:10.899 --> 00:33:11.529 I love that. 00:33:11.549 --> 00:33:12.599 Duke: And I just, walked through. 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.199 I'm like, okay, well, you agree that this is necessary. 00:33:15.419 --> 00:33:17.209 And if so, how long do you think it would take? 00:33:17.509 --> 00:33:19.929 And I kind of walk them through, but it wasn't a conventional scope. 00:33:20.199 --> 00:33:22.209 It wasn't like we've now that we've gathered your requirements. 00:33:22.869 --> 00:33:26.269 it was more a case of like, when I get there, the first thing we're going to do 00:33:26.289 --> 00:33:29.359 is showcase the entire tool front to back. 00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:30.719 CJ: Right. 00:33:30.999 --> 00:33:34.526 Duke: And that's going to take us 2 weeks of workshops, not, 2 hours, 00:33:34.526 --> 00:33:36.686 not 4 hours, 2 weeks of workshops. 00:33:37.586 --> 00:33:40.316 Where different parties are going to come in and see this thing at different angles 00:33:40.516 --> 00:33:44.626 and that is going to flush out the things where you're like, oh, man, it's going 00:33:44.626 --> 00:33:49.766 to be so good versus the stuff that is like, whoa, we do that a different way. 00:33:49.766 --> 00:33:53.336 And it's and what I'm seeing now doesn't look like that's it chief, 00:33:54.326 --> 00:33:54.926 CJ: Right. 00:33:55.256 --> 00:33:55.906 Right. 00:33:56.286 --> 00:34:00.813 Duke: and, and I just see so much stuff that is just like this blind 00:34:00.823 --> 00:34:04.863 following of a blueprint that we've never really sat down and critiqued. 00:34:04.863 --> 00:34:05.012 so much. 00:34:05.253 --> 00:34:08.769 And you get whole implementations where it's just well, you didn't tell 00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:10.449 us that that was your requirement. 00:34:10.449 --> 00:34:14.553 It's like, well, I didn't really even know how this thing really worked. 00:34:14.933 --> 00:34:15.453 CJ: Yeah. 00:34:15.453 --> 00:34:15.992 Yeah. 00:34:16.273 --> 00:34:16.903 I mean that. 00:34:17.323 --> 00:34:18.373 Duke: it chafes me bro. 00:34:18.413 --> 00:34:20.413 It chafes me so bad. 00:34:20.493 --> 00:34:21.873 Like, have you ever seen demo hub? 00:34:22.943 --> 00:34:24.003 CJ: Yeah, I have. 00:34:24.098 --> 00:34:27.208 Duke: And like partners and service now people have this access, this asset 00:34:27.208 --> 00:34:29.278 called demo hub, and it's basically like, what do you want to demo? 00:34:29.438 --> 00:34:30.558 I want to demo SPM. 00:34:30.718 --> 00:34:31.018 Great. 00:34:31.018 --> 00:34:33.528 Which of these narratives do you want to demo within SPM? 00:34:33.628 --> 00:34:36.598 , I need help strategically planning out which things I 00:34:36.598 --> 00:34:37.858 actually make into projects. 00:34:38.128 --> 00:34:41.208 I need to help make my enterprise more agile. 00:34:41.388 --> 00:34:44.368 I need help understanding my resource commitments and cost 00:34:44.368 --> 00:34:45.518 models about those resources. 00:34:45.768 --> 00:34:50.218 So you pick the narrative that you want to demo and it's just like, boom, I 00:34:50.218 --> 00:34:51.858 just installed all the plugins for you. 00:34:52.706 --> 00:34:55.656 Here, read these PowerPoints and it's going to guide you through the 00:34:55.656 --> 00:34:57.176 presentation that you do exactly. 00:34:57.866 --> 00:35:01.426 Here's like a truckload of demo data that doesn't come in a normal PDF. 00:35:02.491 --> 00:35:02.971 CJ: Yeah. 00:35:03.150 --> 00:35:05.660 Duke: here's which users you impersonate when on the PowerPoint. 00:35:06.200 --> 00:35:10.690 You can go from nothing to running a high quality sales 00:35:10.690 --> 00:35:12.600 demo just by using that demo. 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:14.800 And where is that for the customers? 00:35:15.310 --> 00:35:20.656 You just literally spent 300, 000 to buy all this extra cool, awesome 00:35:20.666 --> 00:35:22.226 gear for your ServiceNow instance. 00:35:23.226 --> 00:35:23.956 How do I use it? 00:35:24.006 --> 00:35:25.566 Oh, have fun finding a partner. 00:35:27.135 --> 00:35:30.045 Sorry, that was, that probably shouldn't have been out loud, that whole narrative. 00:35:33.095 --> 00:35:34.335 It's on record now. 00:35:36.005 --> 00:35:38.445 CJ: Well, we're 40 minutes of record, um, 00:35:39.515 --> 00:35:41.015 Duke: That's probably a great place to let it. 00:35:44.915 --> 00:35:45.925 Well, that boat's sinking. 00:35:45.955 --> 00:35:46.465 Did I do that? 00:35:46.755 --> 00:35:47.215 All right, 00:35:47.215 --> 00:35:51.682 CJ: Oh man, we, we might want to consider whether or not 00:35:51.692 --> 00:35:52.992 that last piece makes it in, 00:35:56.392 --> 00:35:58.382 Oh man, but Duke, you're absolutely right. 00:35:58.662 --> 00:36:02.215 There's this gap in the, in, in the market, . Where, as the platform has 00:36:02.215 --> 00:36:07.705 gotten more complex, I don't think the delivery, , that the, the execution. 00:36:08.405 --> 00:36:11.495 Duke: the advisory, like, there's lots of good executors too, if 00:36:11.495 --> 00:36:14.055 they knew how it should work. 00:36:15.045 --> 00:36:15.975 CJ: Well, but I was, 00:36:16.085 --> 00:36:20.475 Duke: to, I talked to like super, super, super big time experts in SPM 00:36:20.715 --> 00:36:22.735 who are still like, yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the new stuff. 00:36:22.935 --> 00:36:25.219 Two versions later, how does it happen? 00:36:25.799 --> 00:36:27.799 CJ: well, I tell you how it happens, right? 00:36:27.829 --> 00:36:29.339 Because consulting doesn't scale. 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:29.759 Right. 00:36:29.759 --> 00:36:32.919 And again, that's probably there's probably a whole episode in that. 00:36:32.919 --> 00:36:35.465 But, when you're at 1 of these partners and you've got, and 00:36:35.465 --> 00:36:37.945 you're on 4 projects, right? 00:36:37.945 --> 00:36:39.105 You don't have time. 00:36:39.255 --> 00:36:42.742 to catch up on everything that you missed over the last 2 versions, 00:36:42.972 --> 00:36:46.019 Because you're delivering, the same thing over and over again. 00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:49.419 And that's part of the problem is that you're delivering the same thing 00:36:49.429 --> 00:36:52.019 over and over again for multiple different clients with different 00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:54.215 needs, But you've got a mainly 1 side. 00:36:54.435 --> 00:36:55.569 It's all a solution. 00:36:55.710 --> 00:36:58.730 And the best kinds of solutions are those that are personalized, 00:36:58.730 --> 00:37:00.110 but those costs more. 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:00.720 Right. 00:37:00.720 --> 00:37:03.960 And so customers, you know, I'm talking to you now, you guys are going to 00:37:03.970 --> 00:37:07.270 have to take a little bit of the blame here too, because you incessantly 00:37:07.270 --> 00:37:08.710 want to negotiate the price down. 00:37:08.950 --> 00:37:12.280 And when you negotiate the price down, what you negotiate out of those deals 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.740 is the customization factor, right? 00:37:14.740 --> 00:37:17.820 Like you negotiate the time that out of it, that the 00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:19.590 experts going to spend with you. 00:37:19.730 --> 00:37:23.020 To get to know your individualized problems and teach you how to 00:37:23.030 --> 00:37:26.370 use the solution in a way that's actually going to help, right? 00:37:26.370 --> 00:37:30.450 Like you negotiate everything down to the base, to the very base layer, right? 00:37:30.470 --> 00:37:32.260 The generic and that's 00:37:32.315 --> 00:37:32.505 Duke: tell 00:37:32.600 --> 00:37:32.620 CJ: of, 00:37:33.975 --> 00:37:38.415 Duke: sorry, sorry, I'm just like in the first time in a hundred 00:37:38.415 --> 00:37:40.525 and some episodes, I'm going to disagree with you on that one. 00:37:40.700 --> 00:37:41.390 CJ: Oh, keep going. 00:37:41.390 --> 00:37:41.780 Yeah. 00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:42.310 I love 00:37:42.385 --> 00:37:45.295 Duke: Because, , I just spent a boatload of money on this stuff. 00:37:45.805 --> 00:37:46.795 How does it work? 00:37:47.240 --> 00:37:47.600 CJ: Yeah. 00:37:47.605 --> 00:37:48.205 Duke: silence. 00:37:48.365 --> 00:37:50.615 After all that money, how does it work? 00:37:51.180 --> 00:37:51.610 CJ: Yeah. 00:37:51.875 --> 00:37:55.895 Duke: How does this 300, 000 piece of licensed equipment, how does it work? 00:37:56.172 --> 00:37:57.642 Show me how it works. 00:37:58.041 --> 00:38:01.501 , and they say, go to the partner ecosystem and I'm going to roll the dice that I 00:38:01.521 --> 00:38:04.661 might get, like, every partner's got an A team, but I'm going to roll the dice to 00:38:04.661 --> 00:38:07.121 see maybe I get their B or C or D team. 00:38:07.548 --> 00:38:11.508 why do I have to, there should be something that tells me 00:38:11.668 --> 00:38:13.788 how does this thing operate? 00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:18.519 I shouldn't pay that amount of money for something that is effectively 00:38:18.549 --> 00:38:22.869 invisible and I've got to pay somebody else to make it on invisible. 00:38:23.269 --> 00:38:26.289 And I hope that they're the kind of partner that isn't. 00:38:26.849 --> 00:38:30.559 Applying their own biases on top of it, or they've given the actual wrench 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:34.119 turning works, the absolutely lowest paid resources they could possibly 00:38:34.139 --> 00:38:39.156 find and aren't going to guide me away from the cliffs on the mountain road. 00:38:39.438 --> 00:38:40.808 CJ: Yeah, yeah, I 00:38:41.113 --> 00:38:43.273 Duke: that's just like, hey, this is how it behaves stock. 00:38:43.503 --> 00:38:46.433 So, at least, you know, where the roads are, if you have some kind of 00:38:46.633 --> 00:38:49.043 justification for going outside of bounds. 00:38:49.121 --> 00:38:52.671 then we'll talk, but nobody knows where the bounds are anymore. 00:38:53.218 --> 00:38:53.998 CJ: That's interesting. 00:38:54.231 --> 00:38:57.691 I think, some of the things we've seen are what guided, , he calls things 00:38:57.691 --> 00:38:59.191 got to play books or not play books. 00:38:59.211 --> 00:38:59.461 , and. 00:38:59.696 --> 00:39:02.946 Got it, got it, got it set ups and guided tours and that sort of thing. 00:39:03.109 --> 00:39:05.999 I think some of those things were created the kind of to try 00:39:05.999 --> 00:39:08.759 to get you through those points that got, they got checklists. 00:39:08.799 --> 00:39:11.289 They got, you know, click on this and walk through this and 00:39:11.289 --> 00:39:12.579 this is how this gets set up. 00:39:12.756 --> 00:39:13.026 but. 00:39:13.194 --> 00:39:16.164 I think buying into the service now platform, right, is one of those 00:39:16.164 --> 00:39:20.564 things that, you know, you tacitly , understand that you're buying into 00:39:20.564 --> 00:39:23.774 a platform that requires expertise in order to get the best out of it. 00:39:24.244 --> 00:39:31.634 And maybe that's not the right thing, but I think, and I don't know, I can't say 00:39:31.634 --> 00:39:33.554 that I've been in enough room sales rooms. 00:39:33.909 --> 00:39:34.939 To say how it's been sold. 00:39:34.999 --> 00:39:39.229 Every time I'm in a room that the platform is sold differently, but customers should 00:39:39.229 --> 00:39:41.079 walk away , from signing that deal. 00:39:41.209 --> 00:39:45.129 Knowing that I know when I was a customer years ago, I walked 00:39:45.129 --> 00:39:48.133 away, after we signed a contract, knowing that I needed a partner. 00:39:48.133 --> 00:39:50.393 In fact, I signed a partner contract. 00:39:50.393 --> 00:39:53.423 Not long after I signed this, the ServiceNow platform contract, and it 00:39:53.443 --> 00:39:56.203 got one of the best partners at the time and you know, blah, blah, blah. 00:39:56.203 --> 00:39:56.703 And here I am. 00:39:56.833 --> 00:40:00.559 . So I I think it's 1 of those things where when you get Gmail, right? 00:40:00.569 --> 00:40:02.099 Like, well, that's Gmail. 00:40:02.149 --> 00:40:05.159 You log in and then you figure it out when you get service. 00:40:05.169 --> 00:40:05.619 Now. 00:40:05.629 --> 00:40:09.159 I think there's a expectation that You're going to hire somebody 00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:13.169 to help you, or you already have someone on staff to, to help you. 00:40:13.319 --> 00:40:17.669 And maybe that expectation , should be changing in this current world. 00:40:17.709 --> 00:40:19.399 That I think that's a valid conversation. 00:40:20.270 --> 00:40:24.320 Duke: 45 minutes of recording, I should probably, uh, roll 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.870 those end credits before I get myself into more trouble here. 00:40:28.475 --> 00:40:29.235 CJ: Absolutely do. 00:40:29.235 --> 00:40:31.315 But , whenever we riff, this is where we end up 00:40:32.510 --> 00:40:33.940 Duke: Hope you enjoyed that one, folks. 00:40:33.940 --> 00:40:35.380 I took a lot of risks on this one. 00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:36.870 So hope you enjoyed that. 00:40:36.910 --> 00:40:38.350 And, , I hope we see you on the next one. 00:40:38.562 --> 00:40:38.952 CJ: later.