Duke: All right, Corey, what are we talking about today?
CJ: Man, dude, today we are just going to let this thing rip and
we're gonna see where we end up,
Duke: Yeah, man, there's no sense just sitting here half the night
trying to figure out a title.
It's like, we know what we want to talk about, but it's just,
how do we put a title around it?
CJ: right?
And I'm sure by the time we finish the episode, ? We'll have something nice
and catchy , for the upload, but right
Duke: cross your fingers.
, we got 40 minutes to figure out a title for this episode.
Yeah,
CJ: And look, look, I mean, the odds are with us, right?
Because we have a great outro.
Duke: true.
We got a good intro too.
Yeah.
Shout out to Shillz Music, again.
We'll put his link in the description below if you guys want to get to him.
Some dope music for your assets as well.
CJ: Yeah, I tell you, man, I, one of my biggest, but the only, probably
the only regret that I have from knowledge is that we couldn't come out
to CJ and live with the intro going,
Duke: That would have been so good, but at least we asked though.
Right.
At least we asked.
CJ: we did ask absolutely,
. Duke: So where do we start on this one?
CJ: you know, so do, was it last week?
I think you, you made a post about, getting coaching.
So maybe that's a good place to start that this week, look, you
can't look, I am stuck in like a time dilation bubble, right?
Like,
I still think it's like the first week after knowledge.
Duke: Yeah, it's funny.
That was like 14 days ago.
CJ: Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
It
, Duke: it was less than 3 weeks ago.
They took been for screens fundamentals course.
I feel like that was last year.
CJ: It feels so long ago.
Just like you said, it was less than two weeks ago.
And, you know, I remember like we had, we all, we had dinner, right.
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: God, that conversation feels like it was last year.
I don't know.
Like, I think this, the post knowledge, like time dilation is real.
Right.
And everybody, there's so much you're trying to do to lead up to it.
I just think I like, once you get on the other end of it, it's just burnout city.
Duke: Just memories of Star Trek DS9.
No, it's not linear.
Ah, those of you who know, know.
CJ: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then my favorite, , Star Trek memory with the lights.
Duke: Oh, yeah.
No, Picard holding it, holding the fork.
Okay.
Yeah.
So getting back to the post about coaching I even got a few
questions like, don't you coach?
Why are you getting coaching?
Because we need it.
, I'm not ashamed of getting coaching.
I'm not ashamed of going out into the market and saying, my
knowledge is not up to my standard of what I want for these things.
And I'm finding myself in more and more conversations where, , I
know the high level stuff, right?
And people want me to talk to them more about it.
And , I'm getting involved in some sales calls with some organizations
and getting customers closer to buying, but man, I really want to understand
deeper how some of these things work.
? I think we can talk a lot about, I mean, just pick, pick a topic in service.
CJ: Yeah, yeah.
Duke: you can talk, a sales narrative without really like knowing
how the component pieces work.
I can't have one without the other.
You know what I mean?
CJ: Honestly, I think maybe even with sales being able to talk
the, it probably benefits you a little bit to not necessarily know
how much the nitty gritty, right?
, and when you're going into those conversations, right?
Because most of the people who you're talking to.
Also don't know the nitty gritty and they aren't, they are so far removed
from being those people in day to day operations with the business, right?
That if you get that deep, like you're probably starting to get
them , to the eyes glazing over part.
However, . There is a time where you transition from sales to execution.
. And, once you've sold someone on something, , you do need to
be able to look to deliver it.
Right.
Duke: absolutely.
And I think that's where the fear driven aspect of it comes because , I hate
the idea of being like a pretender.
You know what
CJ: right.
Yep.
Duke: And it's like, oh, you talked all this stuff and you promised us all this
awesome, but how come you can't deliver?
And so that's why I avoid certain modules that I'm not like super
expert at because I know it's hard for me and why would I risk?
Even though I can talk about the pain and the value and roughly how to get
there, I don't want to be caught with my pants down and just like, oh, I can't, I
don't know which wrench to use on this.
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah, you are in that conversation with the C-suite, right?
Like it's, yeah, you can talk to all their pain points and talk about roughly
how you're gonna get there, but then they invite their tech guy in, right?
And their tech guy, happens to present, on the thing at Knowledge, and it's like, oh,
you
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: like, And you wonder just now how far your knowledge will take you.
Right?
And, and so I think that is 1 of the things that makes you start to
think about, if I'm going to be serious in this space on the platform,
then I probably need to be serious about the space on the platform.
Duke: Another thing that motivated that post.
Is that when I talk to customers or even other service now resources
about the stuff I'm good at reporting performance analytics to some extent, S.
P.
M.
general architecture stuff like, I realized that they learn in a way that is.
Fundamentally different from docs now learning even self teaching.
And I know that , if I said, how do I learn some of the
stuff in the IRM umbrella,
CJ: Right?
Duke: also fun fact, I found out recently the GRC is under the IRM
umbrella and not the other way around.
CJ: Oh, really.
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: I thought Irem was just GRC renamed.
Duke: Yeah, that was, oh, man, we're both in the what?
Yeah, so anyways, GRC is one of those modules.
I hired somebody to do it for me back in the day.
I was working for an organization.
They had to do a PCI compliance on it.
They wanted to use GRC.
And so I took a stab at it, but I just said, no, let's bring in the experts.
I brought in back in the day.
CJ: Oh, yeah.
Remember those guys?
Duke: Yeah.
And I just let them do their thing and they were phenomenal at it.
But again, I still get in conversations and, I'm just like,
imagine being able to tell how close you were to passing an audit, even
if an audit isn't happening now.
They're like, whoa, tell us more about that.
Come and do some stuff.
I'm like, whoa.
I don't want to put my hands up and say, whoa, whoa, whoa anymore.
I want to, yes, this is a price tag.
Let's go
CJ: Say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Did you think I was good at actually solving the problem?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm here to tell you about the problem,
Duke: Again, I will say Dungeons and Dragons taught
me more about doing service.
Now than my 3 year college degree did being able to role play
somebody and understand their thoughts and motivations and fears.
And, um, anyways, I totally got off track here.
CJ: No, but that's super important though, right?
That's probably another episode, but I'm gonna, elevate that, right?
, just so that we can come back to it in another ele in another episode, because
being able to role play somebody's.
Position and really just talks to have an empathy in the conversations.
. Once you have empathy, then you can figure out like how to get to you, like
how to get to that mutual solution.
Everybody's trying to get to you.
So anyway, different episode, but
Duke: Yeah, so where I was going with this is eventually I found out that
it's just the difference is a one on one time be with somebody who has been
there done that you can ask questions to in real time, which, for all its
other strengths, you can't get from now, and you can't get from, , tens of
thousands of unsorted YouTube videos,
And, it shouldn't be a secret, like I gotta say this out loud, like
there really just isn't a lot of guidance material from ServiceNow.
You can go through a whole Now Learning course and not see, , this
is how the whole thing works, soup to nuts, given process.
CJ: So I totally agree with you on that, right?
There is no, there's no road map.
And I think that's because road maps are really hard to build on
a platform that meanders, right?
Like, you know what I mean?
But, but a road
Duke: exactly what you mean.
Mm hmm.
CJ: but a road map is how most people learn, right?
Or at least how they start to learn.
I think at some
Duke: You mean, like, start at this concept and then roll up to this concept
CJ: Yeah, right.
But I think at some point, , the real learning starts when you get off the road.
Right.
And, , how do you navigate once you're off the road?
Typically, you have a coach, right?
Or you have someone in real time, , that can help you way find.
Right to the destination.
And I think, getting that coach, that mentor, is another word for it.
Um, really does help no matter what level of your career you're at.
I had a call with, , the mentor , that I have now, I say now, but I've had,
, this person as a mentor for a long time.
, and the relationship there is so great.
, I was in a bit of a crisis and, , I sent over a text message , and
this person was like, no, , just call me right now, . Okay, great.
And then like you said, duke being able to ask those questions in real time and
get answers in real time and being able to
navigate to the solution through different angles and through different
lenses with someone who, you know, has been there and done that.
And you can respect and, you know, has the knowledge and the
understanding of where you are and knows you well enough to, right?
, it's just the next level.
? And, I love now learning, right?
I send people there all the time, but, , I can't get that part of it
from now learning and that's okay.
I don't think now learning is trying to be that.
Duke: Yeah.
you got to scale somehow,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: but and having said, well, I know, like, service now has to scale,
but I have no interest in scale.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: like, I want for me to be Maximally important,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: to deliver maximum value and therefore , I've just got
to be top of the game and I can use my hours trying to build it.
, even if you had pristine clarity on how this thing is built in service now,
it's still not obvious how it is used.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: tell, you can't tell by looking at it, how resource management And you
sure as hell can't tell by looking at it.
How the strategic portfolio management interface works.
CJ: Right.
Duke: It is so incredibly difficult.
There is so many pieces of foundational data that you need ahead of time.
It's almost like, um, like , you can't eat a baked pie one ingredient at a time.
see what I mean?
, CJ: I do.
Duke: like you, you can't have apple pie, you can't have just the apples.
You can't have just the sugar.
You can't have just the cru.
It's always like, it's all in there.
You can't have soup, you can't have chili one ingredient at a time.
It's all in there now.
And you've gotta find a way to consume it all for it to make sense.
CJ: Yeah, , I want to take this a little bit back to, , the
concept of scalable learning versus, , individualized learning.
? Because , I think I'm starting to, fill a, like, a narrative come together
around this topic as we talk about it.
Right.
And now learning is that scalable learning, right?
This is the learning for 80 percent of the population.
80 percent of the people can drop here and now learning and get a
good enough understanding of service now to move to that next step.
And what's the next step that individualized learning, right?
That's when you get a coach.
That's when you get a mentor.
. That's when you start to do the hands on.
That's when you really find all the other resources out there that are going
to attack the gaps and the knowledge that you still have left over from,
going through the scalable learning.
Yeah,
Duke: it's, it's to say it's a gap is like.
Imagine you have a skeleton and what else of the human being is missing?
Like all of it,
like you have a skeleton there that gives you the vague outline of what
a human being might, you know, you get the size and shape, but for
it to be like the missing pieces is the vital essence of the thing.
CJ: yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I mean, and so, like, when you're done with now learning, you
know what a business rule is, right?
But like, how does that help you in the service now world, right?
Very minimally is in my experience, right?
Oh, I know how to write a business rule.
I know what it's for.
But clients aren't calling me to write business rules for them, they're calling
me to solve problems for them, right?
Sometimes they're calling me for therapy.
That's cool too.
But, the point is, right?
Like you said, this is the skeleton, the business rule is the part that
I'm going to drape everything else on.
Right, but nobody's seeing it.
Duke: Yeah, whether you're a beginner in the game or you're super advanced in the
game, , I think it's just, there's no way to propel yourself beyond a certain point
than to have coaching and mentorship.
CJ: I agree.
I've said it, , a ton of times.
I think I said it, , and when we did see Janet Duke live and
knowledge a couple weeks ago, right?
I'm a product of mentorship my entire life, right?
Like , from being from a kid.
All the way through like my I.
T.
career, like my first career, right to through my service now career
and do you one of my mentors, right?
When I was working incorporating, you were like, Hey man, you got the skills.
You need to come on in and get out here and do the service now thing with me.
And I'm like, no man, I'm not that good.
And , you persist there.
Right.
Eventually I listened to you and I'm glad I did.
So thank you.
Right.
Probably don't say that enough.
Uh, but.
Duke: I'm glad that you did too, because you got out there and now you came
so you could do the same thing to me when I'm like, I'm not good enough.
CJ: true, that's fair enough.
Payback is a mother.
Ain't it?
Duke: Yeah, yeah.
So, that's a good thing we got going on the mutual the joint mentorship thing.
CJ: No, absolutely.
Right.
The point being is that I wouldn't be nearly as good as a, at a lot of the
things that I'm good at, if I didn't have mentors to help me , through the woods.
And.
I just think it's important , that we recognize that we can't know everything
and that we don't know everything in there and that there are people out there who
know certain things better than we do.
. And when you identify that you have a gap in your learning and that you want
to actually skill up in that area, it's okay to go out there and seek help.
Right.
It's okay to seek that mentorship.
It's okay to seek coaching.
. And as a matter of fact, what I would say , is the opposite.
It's not cool.
If you know, you got this gap, . And you're not doing anything to fill
it, now you're stuck, right?
And you're being willingly stuck and why don't you ever want to do that?
Duke: Can we, I want to go slightly off topic.
And
CJ: We always do it.
Duke: we'll put a link to this episode.
Remember the episode, like how to ask for help.
CJ: Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Duke: think we can't talk about mentorship without remembering the things we talked
about in that episode specifically about , how do you get mentorship?
Because I think probably one of the worst things to do is
, message a stranger on LinkedIn.
And say, I need you, to mentor me
CJ: I don't know.
I mean, do you think that's one of the worst things you could do?
I don't know if that's one of the worst things you can
Duke: if you want that person to mentor you.
Yeah.
I mean, it could be that I'm just an asshole.
Right?
Like,
CJ: Duke.
No, I would definitely not say that.
Duke: nobody.
So, like, I'll get messages from people , and they'll just be like, Hey, I see
your posts and I want you to mentor me.
I'm , are you sure you understand exactly what you asked me to do?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Like, when I go , to people to be their mentor, like, first
of all, I'll ask in public, , It's like I did on that thread.
, but if I know somebody's got what I need.
Right, or is it like I go with supplication, you know what I mean?
Like, hat in hand, humble and also ready to pay
CJ: Right.
Duke: ready to pay because I've mentored a lot of people and it's not
like I just I can pull these answers.
Out of my head, I spend significant amounts of time and energy, , thinking
about the questions that they ask me.
CJ: Yeah.
That's true.
Duke: And , I'll sacrifice billable time to do it sometimes.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: And, , I'm happy I've given a lot of that away for free a lot.
A lot I know there's people out there who say that, you know, I'm, I'm a bottom
feeder and I'm preying on the week and whatnot, but I give a ton of time to.
Uh,
CJ: Yeah.
We'll talk about that
Duke: Yeah, it's been said.
It's been said, but just think about the potential shortcuts.
, if I had the choice between paying somebody 500, right?
To give me 2, 4, 5, , whatever the math works out to, but it's admittedly
pay 500 or , slave away, groping around in the dark, hoping you're
getting it for two or three weeks.
That's crazy talk.
CJ: Right.
, Duke: what is your time worth?
Like, my time?
I can recover that 500.
Like, God, like, God, thank you for blessing me that way.
But so can a lot of other people in the ServiceNow community.
And it's like, what would you rather be doing with that 10 hours a time 10 hours
a time or five, even five hours a time?
I tell you what I'd be doing, , spending time with my family, spending time with
my hobbies, like, fucking watching TV,
CJ: Decompressing.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
So Duke, I'm going to push back just a little bit on this.
, and not so much on the merit of the meat , of it.
It's just, I think I say I differentiate between mentorship and coaching.
. And so where I would say is like for coaching, absolutely
come with wallet in hand.
Right.
Like, yeah.
I'm, I don't expect you to put in a, the level of time and quality effort
that it takes to coach me up on a subject so that I now know at least
enough to be, you know what I mean?
Right.
Duke: do in the whole, like, a coach tells you what to do.
A mentor answers your questions.
CJ: Yeah.
And mentors there to kind help guide you through , the storm a little bit.
I show up, I got a torch.
Right.
Here's the road, you're going to come to a fork.
I'm going to give you some advice on which way to go.
You ultimately like the one that take the road that you want, right?
That to me , is a little bit of a different relationship from a
coach who's going to like, you know, all right, here we go.
This is the things are the things you need to know.
And I'm going to, this is the book that I wrote for you and this is the, , and
these are the plates that you need to be.
And I'm going to sit here with you and I'm going to make you do it right.
We're going to practice three times a week, . And you're going to, and I'm going
to be on your butt, , and until you get it right, like all of that, like that to me,
, like that's where the wallet comes to, . And, and that's not to say that people
don't pay for mentorship too, right.
I do think , there's a lot of situations.
Join, you know, just join dedicated groups, right?
Where there's a lot of idea exchange and mentorship given
around and things like that.
But you know, that's how I look at a little bit of a
difference between the two.
Duke: Yeah, I can buy that.
, I think they're different verbs on purpose
CJ: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Duke: and , I imagine when somebody says, this is my mentor, somebody
I call once in a while, somebody to have coffee with and talk or coffee.
But when I have a coach, it's like somebody showing up with a clipboard
and timer, you know, and, you know, and an optimized diet plan.
And it's like, they've spent time working on you.
Yeah.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: you not there, you know what I mean?
So, no, I
CJ: And with, and with you in mind, right?
Like would you, and I specifically, like, this isn't a thing that they,
that they might do this thing for everybody, but they give everybody
an individualized experience.
Absolutely.
Duke: I'm with you.
I'm with you.
We're there.
CJ: So that's the way , that I think about the team.
I think about coaching, man.
I think about, , like you say, what was it?
I guess 2 weeks ago, 3 weeks ago.
Now you were getting, , you were in a class with, , in forest learning
all the intricacies of the CMDB.
That's coaching right there.
Like that guy is going to build you up and he's going to, he's going to kick
you out at the end of the, at the end of the class, and you're going to know
way more about CMDB than you did when you went in and when you went into it.
And that's worth the money,
Duke: Well, yeah, I, so I consider what Ben did in that context training,
CJ: okay.
Duke: because we showed up and he delivered a package of material.
CJ: All right.
Oh,
Duke: Because it's Ben, and Ben and I are friends, like Ben does coach me.
He just doesn't coach every, you know what I mean?
CJ: yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: stream going on with him.
And what about this?
What about that?
And where he gives me things to think about a lot of things to think about.
I've been
CJ: So this is getting interesting, right?
Cause now we've got three levels.
Right.
We've got training.
We got coaching.
We got mentorship.
Right.
And, , we talk about, , the invisible problems in service.
Now, I think maybe this was kind of a, one of those things that was a bit, maybe
if not invisible, definitely unnamed.
. In terms of where do you get help?
, what kind of help are you looking for?
And where's the appropriate place to get it?
Right, because we talked about like now learning earlier
this , in this episode, right?
And we talked about how that's like scalable learning, right?
That's training right now.
Learning is training.
You're going to go there and you're going to get like, there's going
to as a package of materials and now learn is going to deliver that.
Right?
And then, , you're going to have coaching and coaching is going
to be a different sort of thing.
It might even be a package of materials, but it's going to be individualized
package of materials, right?
There's going to be delivered to you in a certain way.
That's going to help you specifically.
If it's done well, anyway, yeah, definitely more of a path.
? And then I think mentorship is that thing that over arcs that whole thing.
All right.
So now I've gotten , the training, I've gotten the coaching, right?
Like I'm, I feel like I'm getting close to that level of mastery, but maybe
there's still something holding me back.
. And now I'm going to go get the gray beers, right?
That's where, , I'm going to go talk to the gray beers and figure out
how to, how do I turn this beer?
Great.
And that's where mentorship
Duke: I think it's very likely in this space that like the
mentorship and coaching is likely in the same body too, right?
CJ: And it can definitely can be right.
I think it definitely can be right.
, I know you do, you deliver coaching all the time and you
deliver mentorship, right.
I don't do a whole lot of coaching, but I do a lot, a lot, a lot more mentorship.
Right.
Duke: you know, with your, um, what is that group they call it at
CJ: oh yeah, yeah.
The communities in tech group.
Yeah.
Now for the culture.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of ways to do this.
And I think it's key, , that you know what you need so that you get, so that
you go the path that you need, , that you go on the path in which you need to get.
Duke: yeah.
If somebody just comes and says, hey, I need coaching on service now.
And what do you mean coaching on service now?
It's like, well, I just want to be better at service now.
It's like, like, you need to think a little bit more
about what you're asking for.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Even if it is, I don't know enough what to ask, and I even, I found
myself in that position, having to eat my own medicine on that coaching call
I, I did a couple weeks ago because I was like, one of the things I'm
really interested in learning , in a coaching scenario is, GRC and I rm.
And big, huge shout out to fusion three consulting.
A couple of them reached out, like asking nothing in return, like just
set up an hour call with me and they're like, well, first of all, , do
you know what you're asking for when you're asking for GRC and IRM, like
IRM , is a umbrella in which GRC exists.
But they actually gave me a framework in order to ask better questions.
And the next conversation is they're going to break down the whole IRM world for me.
And it's basically, I'm going to pick which path along that to start going,
because you can't take it all on at once.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And so they taught me how to ask better questions about, what's
going to be in my IRM journey.
And I'm going to start at GRC, I guess, but
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think , that right there also goes into the heart of, , coaching versus
mentorship versus training, right?
, I don't know that training teaches you, , which the, how
to ask the questions better.
Duke: right.
It's just a delivered package of, oh, man.
CJ: Yeah, no, you're right.
It's just a deliberate package , of material that's designed to
get you to a certain end point.
. And it's designed to work for a certain percentage of people, right?
, training should work for about 80 percent of the people.
. And it should get about 80 percent of the people to about this point.
Also though.
. And this is the key.
It should get them to the point where they're aware enough.
Of what they're not aware of, so that they then can start to figure
out, like, how to ask the better questions, but training itself.
. Doesn't teach you how to ask those, questions better, right?
It just, it gives you the awareness that you're probably not asking them
correctly, or you probably got some gaps.
You need to start figuring some things out.
, there might be more layers to this, right?
There's, Maslow's Maslow's a pyramid that I love so much, but there might
be more layers to this pyramid.
. But right now I'm looking at like training, coaching, mentors, mentorship,
going up in a pyramid sort of way in order to get to mastery.
But then what are you thinking about that Duke?
Duke: No, I love it.
I love it.
I'm just, um, okay.
Shall we rock the boat a little?
CJ: Yeah, let's go for it, man.
Let's do it.
Duke: right.
All right., So far the conversation has tilted around individuals, right?
CJ: Yep.
Duke: I'm an expert, but I'm not an expert in this, and I
want to gain expertise in that.
I'm not an expert, like I'm a beginner, and I just need, you know, help getting
even to more specific scenarios.
And for a long time, the scope of what I could see was very much around
us, you know, ServiceNow experts and
CJ: right.
Duke: in this particular contract that I'm on, it is really, really
hit home to me how, , if we think it's bad for us, brother, It is
so, so desperate out there for the customers right now, I know I'm going
to lose a lot of friends saying this.
Okay.
But
CJ: All right, now keep
Duke: but it's for the health of the ecosystem, right?
Because I think this has share price reducing impact.
In the very near future, if we can't all find a plan together for how to
address it, is that it's one thing for me, independent service now consultant
who can work whenever I want to.
So I can just say, I can take an afternoon off and I'm going
to learn GRC or whatever,
CJ: right.
Duke: but think about where our customers are at.
They're paying a million dollars a year.
On this product they may or may not have partners or staff or whatever,
but the people who have signed the checks for the people who are
responsible for delivering outcomes at the customer, how on earth do they know
how this stuff is supposed to work?
CJ: Yeah, I mean they don't
Duke: And I'm
CJ: Okay.
Duke: saying like, take a, take a now learning course.
Yes, do that, but you can still come out with now learning, take
the now learning for SPM and see if you come up being able to say like.
here's how ideas should work and here's how demand should work.
And here's the 2 of them in concert and we're putting a resource plan on that.
And oh, shoot, we can't put that resource plan on because that user is already.
Fully allocated to something,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: And then we're going to convert these two projects and
we're going to convert some other demands into not projects.
And what are our options there?
And when do we use them?
And then now that we got all this stuff going through that ancient form
list interface, how do we really, truly use any of the 5 or 6 Different
workspaces and specialized interfaces in SPM, like literally, how is it done?
Like the last YouTube video on SPM was done 6 months ago.
where is the guidance?
And so, for the customers out there, , consider breaking the playbook a little
bit, find the one or two people who are super, super experts in that one
process area and get coaching from them.
Not a full implementation, get coaching from them so they can teach you.
Listen.
Here's how it should work.
So you have a clear and accurate idea before you can go to the partners
and tell them to deploy for you.
CJ: Man, dude, now you're talking my playbook here, right?
And, I'm running across , a lot of ServiceNow customers, who
have this same issue, They own the platform, they own a number of apps.
That come with the platform and, , there's not a whole lot that they can do or let
me rephrase that they, the things that they are doing, , that they're doing
those things rather well, but there might be a whole 50 percent of other
things that they have access to that.
They either they're not using or not using well, or they
might not even know they have.
Right?
Like sometimes the platform changes hands a few different times and, nobody
knows who we actually bought, and , what's available and a lot of words to say that
I think that there's room to help folks understand the platform better and get the
value out of the platform, that they want.
Right.
And that they thought , they were signing up for, . And I just don't
think the, I don't think consulting, I don't think consulting scales, and I
think that's the major problem, right.
That's a whole nother episode too.
But , when consulting becomes like a business that's supposed to scale across
dozens or hundreds of customers, right?
Like I think you end up, , having to sacrifice things like customer enablement,
. When, and when I say customer enablement, I mean, actually customer competency and
process areas that they were sold, right.
Right?
You just don't have the time and the bandwidth and the space, and it's not
profitable enough to have one of the big four, spend, three, four months with you
to walk you through learning SPM, right?
Duke: yeah, there is a calcified process for how this stuff.
Usually goes in the industry too.
Right.
So via some kind of sales mechanism, we are convinced that this is
going to answer a lot of our,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: and so it's like, yeah, let's add another 300, 000 to my contract.
now that we've got this thing that we've seen demoed a bunch,
talking like hours of demo
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: weeks, months go by.
And it's like, well, we need somebody to help us deploy it.
And so now somebody comes in and says, well, what are your requirements?
And
CJ: I don't know, Duke.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Duke: experience with this once it was ITBM at the time.
It's SPM now, but it was my first deployment of that.
And.
I was asked by a friend to help do the bid.
Cause they weren't really pleased with who they had bidding.
came in there and I just said like, I don't know, this is how I would do it.
And they came back and they were like, this is like way more expensive
than the second highest bidder.
what do you know that they don't?
CJ: Yes.
I love that.
Duke: And I just, walked through.
I'm like, okay, well, you agree that this is necessary.
And if so, how long do you think it would take?
And I kind of walk them through, but it wasn't a conventional scope.
It wasn't like we've now that we've gathered your requirements.
it was more a case of like, when I get there, the first thing we're going to do
is showcase the entire tool front to back.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And that's going to take us 2 weeks of workshops, not, 2 hours,
not 4 hours, 2 weeks of workshops.
Where different parties are going to come in and see this thing at different angles
and that is going to flush out the things where you're like, oh, man, it's going
to be so good versus the stuff that is like, whoa, we do that a different way.
And it's and what I'm seeing now doesn't look like that's it chief,
CJ: Right.
Right.
Duke: and, and I just see so much stuff that is just like this blind
following of a blueprint that we've never really sat down and critiqued.
so much.
And you get whole implementations where it's just well, you didn't tell
us that that was your requirement.
It's like, well, I didn't really even know how this thing really worked.
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean that.
Duke: it chafes me bro.
It chafes me so bad.
Like, have you ever seen demo hub?
CJ: Yeah, I have.
Duke: And like partners and service now people have this access, this asset
called demo hub, and it's basically like, what do you want to demo?
I want to demo SPM.
Great.
Which of these narratives do you want to demo within SPM?
, I need help strategically planning out which things I
actually make into projects.
I need to help make my enterprise more agile.
I need help understanding my resource commitments and cost
models about those resources.
So you pick the narrative that you want to demo and it's just like, boom, I
just installed all the plugins for you.
Here, read these PowerPoints and it's going to guide you through the
presentation that you do exactly.
Here's like a truckload of demo data that doesn't come in a normal PDF.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: here's which users you impersonate when on the PowerPoint.
You can go from nothing to running a high quality sales
demo just by using that demo.
And where is that for the customers?
You just literally spent 300, 000 to buy all this extra cool, awesome
gear for your ServiceNow instance.
How do I use it?
Oh, have fun finding a partner.
Sorry, that was, that probably shouldn't have been out loud, that whole narrative.
It's on record now.
CJ: Well, we're 40 minutes of record, um,
Duke: That's probably a great place to let it.
Well, that boat's sinking.
Did I do that?
All right,
CJ: Oh man, we, we might want to consider whether or not
that last piece makes it in,
Oh man, but Duke, you're absolutely right.
There's this gap in the, in, in the market, . Where, as the platform has
gotten more complex, I don't think the delivery, , that the, the execution.
Duke: the advisory, like, there's lots of good executors too, if
they knew how it should work.
CJ: Well, but I was,
Duke: to, I talked to like super, super, super big time experts in SPM
who are still like, yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the new stuff.
Two versions later, how does it happen?
CJ: well, I tell you how it happens, right?
Because consulting doesn't scale.
Right.
And again, that's probably there's probably a whole episode in that.
But, when you're at 1 of these partners and you've got, and
you're on 4 projects, right?
You don't have time.
to catch up on everything that you missed over the last 2 versions,
Because you're delivering, the same thing over and over again.
And that's part of the problem is that you're delivering the same thing
over and over again for multiple different clients with different
needs, But you've got a mainly 1 side.
It's all a solution.
And the best kinds of solutions are those that are personalized,
but those costs more.
Right.
And so customers, you know, I'm talking to you now, you guys are going to
have to take a little bit of the blame here too, because you incessantly
want to negotiate the price down.
And when you negotiate the price down, what you negotiate out of those deals
is the customization factor, right?
Like you negotiate the time that out of it, that the
experts going to spend with you.
To get to know your individualized problems and teach you how to
use the solution in a way that's actually going to help, right?
Like you negotiate everything down to the base, to the very base layer, right?
The generic and that's
Duke: tell
CJ: of,
Duke: sorry, sorry, I'm just like in the first time in a hundred
and some episodes, I'm going to disagree with you on that one.
CJ: Oh, keep going.
Yeah.
I love
Duke: Because, , I just spent a boatload of money on this stuff.
How does it work?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: silence.
After all that money, how does it work?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: How does this 300, 000 piece of licensed equipment, how does it work?
Show me how it works.
, and they say, go to the partner ecosystem and I'm going to roll the dice that I
might get, like, every partner's got an A team, but I'm going to roll the dice to
see maybe I get their B or C or D team.
why do I have to, there should be something that tells me
how does this thing operate?
I shouldn't pay that amount of money for something that is effectively
invisible and I've got to pay somebody else to make it on invisible.
And I hope that they're the kind of partner that isn't.
Applying their own biases on top of it, or they've given the actual wrench
turning works, the absolutely lowest paid resources they could possibly
find and aren't going to guide me away from the cliffs on the mountain road.
CJ: Yeah, yeah, I
Duke: that's just like, hey, this is how it behaves stock.
So, at least, you know, where the roads are, if you have some kind of
justification for going outside of bounds.
then we'll talk, but nobody knows where the bounds are anymore.
CJ: That's interesting.
I think, some of the things we've seen are what guided, , he calls things
got to play books or not play books.
, and.
Got it, got it, got it set ups and guided tours and that sort of thing.
I think some of those things were created the kind of to try
to get you through those points that got, they got checklists.
They got, you know, click on this and walk through this and
this is how this gets set up.
but.
I think buying into the service now platform, right, is one of those
things that, you know, you tacitly , understand that you're buying into
a platform that requires expertise in order to get the best out of it.
And maybe that's not the right thing, but I think, and I don't know, I can't say
that I've been in enough room sales rooms.
To say how it's been sold.
Every time I'm in a room that the platform is sold differently, but customers should
walk away , from signing that deal.
Knowing that I know when I was a customer years ago, I walked
away, after we signed a contract, knowing that I needed a partner.
In fact, I signed a partner contract.
Not long after I signed this, the ServiceNow platform contract, and it
got one of the best partners at the time and you know, blah, blah, blah.
And here I am.
. So I I think it's 1 of those things where when you get Gmail, right?
Like, well, that's Gmail.
You log in and then you figure it out when you get service.
Now.
I think there's a expectation that You're going to hire somebody
to help you, or you already have someone on staff to, to help you.
And maybe that expectation , should be changing in this current world.
That I think that's a valid conversation.
Duke: 45 minutes of recording, I should probably, uh, roll
those end credits before I get myself into more trouble here.
CJ: Absolutely do.
But , whenever we riff, this is where we end up
Duke: Hope you enjoyed that one, folks.
I took a lot of risks on this one.
So hope you enjoyed that.
And, , I hope we see you on the next one.
CJ: later.