WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness, 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610 Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360 Ali: And then there are the 10, 000 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760 things. 00:00:22.132 --> 00:00:24.162 Sam: Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 Things. 00:00:24.192 --> 00:00:25.372 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:25.615 --> 00:00:26.265 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:26.485 --> 00:00:26.755 And I'm 00:00:26.755 --> 00:00:26.995 Ali: Ali 00:00:26.995 --> 00:00:27.685 Sam: Catramados. 00:00:28.465 --> 00:00:31.495 And I just wanted to butt in, Joe, right before you launch into the topic today. 00:00:31.805 --> 00:00:39.417 This is a show with three neurodivergent people grappling with reality and we 00:00:39.417 --> 00:00:43.927 try not to be too boring about it and we try not to be experts on stuff. 00:00:44.242 --> 00:00:45.582 And just go with experience. 00:00:45.622 --> 00:00:48.678 Joe: Yeah, I had someone, write in and say they wanted us to 00:00:48.758 --> 00:00:51.488 speak more about our diagnoses. 00:00:52.118 --> 00:00:54.728 So I don't know if you want to do it at the front of the show each week, 00:00:54.898 --> 00:00:56.958 but I mean, we can do it briefly now. 00:00:56.988 --> 00:00:59.758 I have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. 00:01:00.168 --> 00:01:00.878 That's it for me. 00:01:00.878 --> 00:01:02.688 You guys have a bit more of a fruit salad. 00:01:02.725 --> 00:01:03.097 Sam: yes. 00:01:03.147 --> 00:01:03.667 Okay. 00:01:03.743 --> 00:01:04.013 okay. 00:01:04.053 --> 00:01:08.613 I'm in the middle, I guess, with less acronyms than Ali, but more than you. 00:01:09.203 --> 00:01:10.963 ADHD, where... 00:01:11.883 --> 00:01:16.298 Working on the, learning more about the ASD side of it for me at the moment. 00:01:16.298 --> 00:01:16.868 What's ASD? 00:01:16.868 --> 00:01:18.698 Autism Spectrum Disorder. 00:01:18.808 --> 00:01:19.068 Yeah. 00:01:19.118 --> 00:01:22.814 And, years before, you know, generalized anxiety, you know, 00:01:22.854 --> 00:01:26.674 persistent depression, um, gotten a lot better in those two areas. 00:01:26.684 --> 00:01:30.164 And so mental health much better than it was, but now still the 00:01:30.164 --> 00:01:33.566 sort of the challenges that come with the neurodivergent, aspects. 00:01:33.666 --> 00:01:33.966 Ali: Yeah. 00:01:34.446 --> 00:01:41.556 And yeah, I am the fruit salad, so bipolar and uh, premenstrual mood dysphoria, 00:01:42.576 --> 00:01:48.139 um, and then, um, ADHD, ASD, and CPTSD. 00:01:49.609 --> 00:01:50.629 Joe: Jesus Christ. 00:01:50.629 --> 00:01:51.499 Yeah, I know. 00:01:51.539 --> 00:01:52.849 If you could see her now, look at her. 00:01:52.849 --> 00:01:53.659 She's smiling. 00:01:53.659 --> 00:01:54.249 Yeah. 00:01:54.249 --> 00:01:54.369 Yeah. 00:01:54.369 --> 00:01:55.359 Ali: She's serene. 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:56.199 She looks so put together. 00:01:56.199 --> 00:01:57.079 I'm heavily medicated. 00:01:57.669 --> 00:01:57.939 Joe: Yeah. 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:00.209 Nah, she's in a full matching tracksuit. 00:02:01.129 --> 00:02:01.389 Yeah. 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:01.839 That's right. 00:02:01.839 --> 00:02:02.229 Yeah. 00:02:02.259 --> 00:02:03.319 Well, I don't know, guys. 00:02:03.429 --> 00:02:04.809 Let's, let's have a meeting one day. 00:02:04.809 --> 00:02:07.039 We've been talking about having a meeting for months now. 00:02:07.049 --> 00:02:08.689 Do we say that at the start of each show? 00:02:08.769 --> 00:02:09.789 Is that Tiresome? 00:02:09.809 --> 00:02:10.029 I don't 00:02:10.029 --> 00:02:10.149 Sam: know. 00:02:10.169 --> 00:02:13.829 Well, I just thought I'd, Preempt things and, and save us all a meeting 00:02:13.839 --> 00:02:16.989 and just jump in with it because I think the feedback you got was good 00:02:17.149 --> 00:02:20.349 and that, I mean, people like the show in general, we're hearing really 00:02:20.359 --> 00:02:23.850 wonderful things, like great little reviews you guys are getting by text and 00:02:23.850 --> 00:02:28.190 reposting to me, which just absolutely makes my day and makes me, you know, 00:02:28.870 --> 00:02:32.770 want to continue with this because I feel like it's valuable for us, but it 00:02:32.770 --> 00:02:34.350 seems to be valuable for other people. 00:02:34.880 --> 00:02:39.700 But that specific idea Of, you know, yeah, labelling ourselves, 00:02:39.730 --> 00:02:40.930 but doing it consciously. 00:02:40.950 --> 00:02:41.810 Yeah, I think, yeah, 00:02:41.980 --> 00:02:45.020 Joe: let's come up with a concise way to just say we're all neurodivergent. 00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:45.270 Yeah. 00:02:45.290 --> 00:02:48.433 And, if anyone wants to know the lore, they can look it up. 00:02:48.493 --> 00:02:48.853 That's right. 00:02:48.863 --> 00:02:54.083 Yeah, um, look, what I said to that person is, yeah, I'm happy to, we're 00:02:54.083 --> 00:02:56.293 happy to mention neurodivergence more. 00:02:56.343 --> 00:02:59.223 But, as a bipolar person, I don't particularly want to 00:02:59.223 --> 00:03:00.783 talk about bipolar every week. 00:03:00.843 --> 00:03:01.123 Yeah. 00:03:01.193 --> 00:03:04.183 I don't particularly want to talk to you two about autism and... 00:03:05.018 --> 00:03:12.468 Uh, ADHD every week, uh, what I noticed from my own time in psych wards and 00:03:13.108 --> 00:03:17.518 my own time working in psych wards and being a patient is, the number one 00:03:17.538 --> 00:03:20.158 topic on a psych ward is Spirituality. 00:03:20.168 --> 00:03:22.688 The number two topic is probably politics. 00:03:22.918 --> 00:03:24.648 Number three is probably philosophy. 00:03:25.368 --> 00:03:27.528 That's what people on psych wards talk about. 00:03:27.878 --> 00:03:32.168 And I am a crazy person who wants to talk about things that I find interesting. 00:03:32.208 --> 00:03:35.108 I'm not someone who wants to talk about mental health awareness. 00:03:35.638 --> 00:03:37.938 I want to talk about what I find interesting in the world. 00:03:37.948 --> 00:03:38.018 Oh, 00:03:38.018 --> 00:03:39.338 Sam: that's the last thing people want to talk about in 00:03:39.338 --> 00:03:40.588 the psych ward is mental health. 00:03:40.608 --> 00:03:41.208 Yeah, exactly. 00:03:41.758 --> 00:03:44.788 Joe: So I guess, look, that's my little coda on what this show is. 00:03:44.798 --> 00:03:45.248 It's like... 00:03:45.703 --> 00:03:49.943 Three neurodivergent people talking about purely just what interests us. 00:03:49.973 --> 00:03:50.673 Yeah, exactly. 00:03:50.723 --> 00:03:51.923 Um, but yeah, 00:03:51.923 --> 00:03:55.593 Ali: like, can we bring that, that lived experience to those? 00:03:56.263 --> 00:03:59.773 Joe: If we were better at marketing this show, we would lean into more 00:03:59.773 --> 00:04:02.093 into that angle of the neurodivergence. 00:04:02.103 --> 00:04:04.113 So maybe we can do that. 00:04:04.983 --> 00:04:06.863 We can just do that in simple ways. 00:04:06.921 --> 00:04:09.591 but yeah, that's, that's all of our backgrounds and yeah, 00:04:09.591 --> 00:04:10.621 let's get on with the topics. 00:04:10.621 --> 00:04:11.061 Sam: Exactly. 00:04:11.071 --> 00:04:13.291 We'll come up with a neat way of saying it eventually. 00:04:13.471 --> 00:04:13.821 Yeah. 00:04:13.938 --> 00:04:17.418 so there's a wonderful quote here from Emmett Fox, who I know nothing 00:04:17.418 --> 00:04:21.078 about, uh, but I do like the quote and I think there's an awful lot 00:04:21.088 --> 00:04:24.966 here worth discussing, going over old grievances mentally, thinking how 00:04:24.966 --> 00:04:29.006 badly someone acted at some time, for instance, and recalling the details. 00:04:29.526 --> 00:04:34.806 Has the effect of revivifying that which was quietly expiring of neglect. 00:04:37.086 --> 00:04:38.166 Joe: Old grievances. 00:04:38.226 --> 00:04:38.826 I agree. 00:04:38.986 --> 00:04:41.626 I would use the word resentments. 00:04:42.016 --> 00:04:42.416 Sure. 00:04:43.146 --> 00:04:45.956 Emmet Fox is a Christian mystic, I guess you'd call him. 00:04:46.606 --> 00:04:49.676 He was a healer, Christian faith healer. 00:04:49.916 --> 00:04:50.216 Sure. 00:04:50.266 --> 00:04:55.516 That book came out in 1934 and I've been, I read it and I've been re reading 00:04:55.516 --> 00:04:57.056 it and actually sort of studying it. 00:04:57.556 --> 00:04:58.816 It's kind of blown my mind. 00:04:59.696 --> 00:05:06.026 But what I've brought in here is some of the less, um, less miraculous stuff. 00:05:06.416 --> 00:05:09.026 You know, just that one quote I thought stood on its own. 00:05:09.106 --> 00:05:09.466 Yeah. 00:05:09.736 --> 00:05:10.266 Um. 00:05:11.416 --> 00:05:12.006 It does. 00:05:12.016 --> 00:05:17.086 Yeah, like how I got sober was to understand, a huge part of it was to 00:05:17.086 --> 00:05:22.371 understand how toxic resentments are, and the place that I got sober, which 00:05:22.371 --> 00:05:23.851 I cannot talk about on this show. 00:05:24.156 --> 00:05:29.136 It is a place of many cliches and one of the cliches, the cliche about 00:05:29.136 --> 00:05:33.811 resentment is, having a resentment is like drinking poison and expect someone, 00:05:33.821 --> 00:05:35.441 expecting someone else to get sick. 00:05:35.801 --> 00:05:36.571 Oh yeah. 00:05:36.781 --> 00:05:37.201 Right. 00:05:37.201 --> 00:05:37.741 Very true. 00:05:37.913 --> 00:05:38.283 I don't know. 00:05:38.283 --> 00:05:39.963 That's what I wanted to throw out to you guys. 00:05:40.003 --> 00:05:42.633 I have done nearly eight years. 00:05:43.253 --> 00:05:48.343 Of thorough, thorough work on resentments, and I can't say that I'm completely 00:05:48.343 --> 00:05:54.073 resentment free, but honestly, I have almost completely emptied out a head that 00:05:54.073 --> 00:06:00.518 was full of resentments, you know, and the reasons why that makes you drink Should be 00:06:00.518 --> 00:06:05.428 obvious, but basically it's like fuck this person I'm gonna get wasted over and over 00:06:05.428 --> 00:06:10.458 again and the person changes or there's a cast of people in your head and and you're 00:06:10.458 --> 00:06:14.088 driving home from work and that what your fucking boss said to you and fuck that guy 00:06:14.088 --> 00:06:16.128 and yeah and pull into the bottle shop and 00:06:16.298 --> 00:06:17.258 Sam: John Howard and 00:06:17.278 --> 00:06:20.718 Joe: yeah sure yeah there's always the big ones yeah yeah the big other 00:06:20.718 --> 00:06:23.433 and then there's the ones in your life and blah blah blah but like you 00:06:23.803 --> 00:06:27.923 A handful of resentment is, that's, you, you, you are ruining your life. 00:06:28.043 --> 00:06:28.643 Oh, big time. 00:06:28.653 --> 00:06:30.133 And there is no advantage to it. 00:06:30.163 --> 00:06:30.443 No. 00:06:31.133 --> 00:06:35.283 So, I don't know, yeah, I wanted to hear what you guys thought about, going over, 00:06:35.283 --> 00:06:38.643 I think you said going over old grievances and replaying them in your head. 00:06:38.673 --> 00:06:39.133 Oh yeah, I've 00:06:39.133 --> 00:06:39.463 Sam: done it. 00:06:39.813 --> 00:06:40.153 I've done it. 00:06:41.293 --> 00:06:44.793 Yeah, I'm, I'm well on board with this quote and everything it says, for sure. 00:06:45.063 --> 00:06:45.433 Ali? 00:06:45.952 --> 00:06:52.002 Ali: yeah, no, as someone who carried, I suppose, a lot of, Resentments, 00:06:52.022 --> 00:06:56.132 um, you know, sort of rooted in trauma from when I was younger, um, 00:06:56.142 --> 00:07:03.167 for many years and realizing how Self destructive, those behave, that 00:07:03.167 --> 00:07:05.567 turned into sort of certain behaviours that were really self destructive. 00:07:05.627 --> 00:07:09.147 So, rather than, mine wasn't, I mean it was alcohol and drugs when I was 00:07:09.147 --> 00:07:12.857 younger, but then as I got older it turned into other things, whether it 00:07:12.857 --> 00:07:17.807 was more around food and um, that's another diagnosis, eating disorder, 00:07:18.187 --> 00:07:20.027 um, or disordered eating I should say. 00:07:20.027 --> 00:07:21.497 Oh, let's talk about that sometime, for 00:07:21.497 --> 00:07:21.857 Sam: sure, 00:07:22.157 --> 00:07:22.367 Ali: yeah. 00:07:22.647 --> 00:07:24.037 Maybe ? No, no. 00:07:24.037 --> 00:07:24.397 I mean, no. 00:07:24.397 --> 00:07:24.517 No. 00:07:24.517 --> 00:07:24.797 Okay. 00:07:24.922 --> 00:07:25.042 Yeah. 00:07:25.042 --> 00:07:25.672 In a general sense, 00:07:25.672 --> 00:07:27.772 Sam: I was, I, I've things I'm gonna share about that too, because 00:07:27.772 --> 00:07:32.752 Ali: it's, um, it was really what it looked like was Yeah. 00:07:32.842 --> 00:07:36.502 Either too much or then really restricting and controlling Yeah. 00:07:36.802 --> 00:07:40.792 As a way of feeling out of control in your life. 00:07:40.797 --> 00:07:42.772 And then it becomes these really destructive behaviors. 00:07:42.777 --> 00:07:43.757 What's the resentment got to do with it? 00:07:44.057 --> 00:07:47.842 So the resentment is, so the feelings or the ruminating on 00:07:48.052 --> 00:07:49.197 these horrible feelings and these. 00:07:50.927 --> 00:07:53.547 So, you're carrying and you cannot control it. 00:07:53.547 --> 00:07:57.537 It is a complete lack of control in, over that feeling 00:07:57.537 --> 00:07:58.997 and it just is so overwhelming. 00:07:59.107 --> 00:08:00.277 So you're a slave to it. 00:08:00.337 --> 00:08:03.757 So one of the few things then it manifesting will manifest it in for me. 00:08:04.307 --> 00:08:06.737 Being able to control, which is for a lot of people, particularly 00:08:06.737 --> 00:08:10.077 a lot of women, but it's very much controlling what you eat. 00:08:10.537 --> 00:08:14.047 And so that's how it manifested for me for years and for 00:08:14.767 --> 00:08:14.957 Joe: decades. 00:08:14.967 --> 00:08:16.397 Yeah, okay, I didn't know about that one. 00:08:16.797 --> 00:08:20.527 So you agree that the resentment is the root of some very 00:08:20.527 --> 00:08:21.297 self destructive behaviour? 00:08:21.317 --> 00:08:21.697 Very, 00:08:21.797 --> 00:08:21.997 Ali: yeah. 00:08:21.997 --> 00:08:24.407 The most self destructive behaviour is when I was younger, 00:08:24.407 --> 00:08:26.197 yeah, around drugs and alcohol. 00:08:26.227 --> 00:08:31.437 Um, and then later in, particularly with disordered eating, it was very much... 00:08:32.052 --> 00:08:37.092 Yeah, rooted in resentment, and the only way I was, and rather than like, 00:08:37.252 --> 00:08:40.242 I suppose in the quote where it's sort of, you know, where you almost forget 00:08:40.242 --> 00:08:44.302 it, where he talks about forgetting it, it's more, I had to talk about it. 00:08:44.912 --> 00:08:48.972 with, in therapy, in a therapeutic environment, in order to be able 00:08:48.972 --> 00:08:50.692 to work through it, to let it go. 00:08:51.402 --> 00:08:53.122 So it's sort of almost like exposure 00:08:53.122 --> 00:08:53.442 Joe: therapy. 00:08:53.442 --> 00:08:56.322 So you're disagreeing with Emmett about the dying of neglect 00:08:56.322 --> 00:08:56.692 Ali: thing? 00:08:56.722 --> 00:09:01.082 Yeah, so I don't think, neglecting it was sort of still letting it be 00:09:01.082 --> 00:09:04.502 there and still giving it some sort of power, whereas, and they talk 00:09:04.502 --> 00:09:08.062 about exposure therapy, or like, you know, talking about it, the monster or 00:09:08.062 --> 00:09:09.792 the, the thing that you're scared of. 00:09:09.832 --> 00:09:10.392 Diminishes. 00:09:10.442 --> 00:09:11.022 Diminishes. 00:09:11.022 --> 00:09:11.922 And it becomes. 00:09:12.412 --> 00:09:12.812 Yeah, it's 00:09:13.302 --> 00:09:13.622 Joe: less scary. 00:09:13.622 --> 00:09:17.342 But can I say, but what if you only talk about it in therapy? 00:09:17.842 --> 00:09:18.662 Yeah, that works. 00:09:18.712 --> 00:09:19.082 Yeah. 00:09:19.182 --> 00:09:22.462 Because, this is, I've learnt this the hard way, it's like... 00:09:23.432 --> 00:09:27.142 If I'm carrying around a, I get a, resentments also get obsessions with 00:09:27.142 --> 00:09:31.312 people and if I'm carrying them around and then talking to everyone about them, 00:09:31.322 --> 00:09:36.022 which is, has been my style, was only when I, they were dissected in therapy that 00:09:36.022 --> 00:09:41.972 I was like, Oh, this is the appropriate place to talk about these resentments. 00:09:42.012 --> 00:09:45.827 Sam: If you do it to your friends, you're placing them in a difficult position. 00:09:46.237 --> 00:09:49.897 They think that their role as a friend is to validate this thing that's 00:09:49.907 --> 00:09:53.167 going on and then eventually they might get tired of that and then they 00:09:53.167 --> 00:09:55.437 feel an instinct to contradict you. 00:09:56.147 --> 00:10:00.657 And then of course, just flatly telling you, you know, yeah, 00:10:00.657 --> 00:10:01.697 you're wrong and move on. 00:10:01.737 --> 00:10:03.347 Not, not especially helpful either. 00:10:04.517 --> 00:10:08.087 Uh, and then so maybe a really clever friend will eventually 00:10:08.521 --> 00:10:10.201 take on the role of a therapist. 00:10:10.856 --> 00:10:13.716 in helping you to kind of get some sort of perspective on it 00:10:13.896 --> 00:10:15.166 that helps you to move through it. 00:10:16.146 --> 00:10:17.946 Uh, and you know, deconstruct what's happening. 00:10:17.976 --> 00:10:20.496 But the therapist is the person for that, not the 00:10:20.686 --> 00:10:20.866 Joe: friend. 00:10:20.946 --> 00:10:25.256 But I would say that's true of a big resentment, like your big trauma. 00:10:26.246 --> 00:10:28.816 Maybe we should separate the two, resentments and trauma. 00:10:29.396 --> 00:10:32.246 So what I would say is the little resentments, the ones... 00:10:33.371 --> 00:10:37.061 You've got your colleague at work or yeah, those, those little ones, they 00:10:37.261 --> 00:10:42.211 Ali: all sort of come from that same sense of feeling out of control in 00:10:42.561 --> 00:10:42.881 Joe: that situation. 00:10:42.931 --> 00:10:45.701 But what I'm saying is maybe, and I haven't been good at this, but 00:10:45.711 --> 00:10:47.861 maybe what he's saying is right. 00:10:47.861 --> 00:10:52.691 Maybe we can just let, so by being out of the habit of forming resentments, 00:10:52.691 --> 00:10:54.431 which is not kind of where I'm at now. 00:10:54.851 --> 00:10:55.241 Yeah. 00:10:55.301 --> 00:10:56.721 Mostly seeing them coming in. 00:10:57.861 --> 00:10:59.371 They can just die of neglect. 00:10:59.821 --> 00:11:03.131 Ali: Oh yeah, so you can learn to right size them. 00:11:03.131 --> 00:11:05.691 I think when you're in the thick of it, you are... 00:11:06.121 --> 00:11:11.131 So, you are feeling, even the small things feel more intense than they actually are. 00:11:11.171 --> 00:11:14.491 And you feel the perceived slight by the colleague or your boss or 00:11:15.221 --> 00:11:16.891 the injustice that you're feeling. 00:11:16.921 --> 00:11:17.871 And they can quickly grow. 00:11:18.021 --> 00:11:18.291 Yeah. 00:11:18.291 --> 00:11:21.921 It can grow into this much bigger thing than it actually is, but it's still, 00:11:22.151 --> 00:11:24.911 cause it feels the same as the other feeling as the big resentment, right? 00:11:24.941 --> 00:11:26.061 They feel the same. 00:11:26.061 --> 00:11:30.631 They feel like you're, yeah, it's like it's something somehow you are 00:11:30.641 --> 00:11:35.031 being, you know, it is this like unjustified behavior towards you. 00:11:35.051 --> 00:11:35.341 And. 00:11:36.361 --> 00:11:40.791 And it's deeply unfair, and when you're not in a place of actually learning 00:11:40.791 --> 00:11:43.571 how to deal with the big ones, you're still, you're dealing with them in 00:11:43.571 --> 00:11:48.391 all the same way, so it's the same excuse to drink, or to eat or not eat, 00:11:48.391 --> 00:11:51.071 or whatever, or whatever your, the behavior that manifests from that. 00:11:51.171 --> 00:11:51.681 Excess. 00:11:51.711 --> 00:11:54.011 Comes from, yeah, the lack. 00:11:54.606 --> 00:11:58.506 It can come from even the slightest, you know, perceived, you know, injustice 00:11:58.506 --> 00:12:00.396 versus, you know, the really big ones. 00:12:00.396 --> 00:12:05.276 And when you learn to get through the big ones, you realize, Oh yeah, 00:12:05.276 --> 00:12:08.456 you sort of do get to this place of, well, actually that thing at 00:12:08.456 --> 00:12:09.786 work is really not that important. 00:12:10.006 --> 00:12:12.596 Like, you know, that, that thing, that person really didn't, 00:12:13.306 --> 00:12:14.461 you know, upset me in that. 00:12:14.751 --> 00:12:19.381 You know, or I can get over that, or, like, it right sizes those, you 00:12:19.381 --> 00:12:21.741 know, I mean, they're annoying, and you could, but yeah, but it's just 00:12:21.741 --> 00:12:24.281 like, oh, well, but I'm not getting paid to think about it right now. 00:12:24.301 --> 00:12:26.971 Yeah, exactly, yeah, so you're just like, oh, well, that person's a dickhead, or 00:12:26.971 --> 00:12:29.951 we choose, you know, whatever, you know, or that, yeah, that was a bit unfair, but 00:12:29.951 --> 00:12:31.621 it's not the end of the world, versus... 00:12:31.916 --> 00:12:34.296 When you, like I said, when you're in the thick of it, everything feels 00:12:34.296 --> 00:12:35.756 like, oh my god, this is another thing. 00:12:35.846 --> 00:12:36.016 This is 00:12:36.256 --> 00:12:36.816 Sam: another thing. 00:12:36.826 --> 00:12:37.346 And you know what? 00:12:37.356 --> 00:12:39.986 They might objectively be completely wrong, but I'm not 00:12:39.986 --> 00:12:40.686 going to let it ruin my life. 00:12:40.686 --> 00:12:41.466 What about you, Sam? 00:12:41.866 --> 00:12:44.446 Joe: Do you carry around a lot of, well first, Ali, do you still 00:12:44.446 --> 00:12:45.606 carry around a lot of resentments? 00:12:46.326 --> 00:12:46.896 Um, 00:12:46.906 --> 00:12:47.776 Sam: you can't be honest. 00:12:47.976 --> 00:12:48.226 Ali: Yeah. 00:12:48.226 --> 00:12:52.316 No, I, I, if I'm really honest, there's still a couple of things I still 00:12:52.486 --> 00:12:58.386 struggle with, but I, but again, that's the therapy and it's still a process. 00:12:58.396 --> 00:13:01.026 And I still feel like there's still a couple of things I need to work 00:13:01.026 --> 00:13:04.506 through, but I feel like the more recent things and the things that, 00:13:04.566 --> 00:13:08.826 you know, have got me down over the last few years or whatever, I've been 00:13:08.826 --> 00:13:10.566 able to handle in a much better way. 00:13:10.616 --> 00:13:11.546 There's still a few things. 00:13:13.296 --> 00:13:16.126 It's, you know, complicated childhood stuff that just takes 00:13:16.126 --> 00:13:17.606 a really long time to unravel. 00:13:17.606 --> 00:13:21.106 And I just, you know, I mean, I've been in therapy for over two years and 00:13:21.106 --> 00:13:24.276 it's, I think, you know, a little bit longer and, you know, but definitely 00:13:24.606 --> 00:13:28.166 compared to what I was like 12 months ago versus two years ago versus five 00:13:28.166 --> 00:13:29.496 years ago, it's completely different. 00:13:29.736 --> 00:13:33.386 Joe: Well, I would say as a blanket statement and it's radical, it 00:13:33.386 --> 00:13:37.766 is very radical, but I would say if you can forgive all of those 00:13:37.766 --> 00:13:40.146 people completely, that's right. 00:13:40.996 --> 00:13:42.316 Not because they deserve it. 00:13:43.751 --> 00:13:44.531 But because... 00:13:44.541 --> 00:13:45.241 You deserve it. 00:13:45.311 --> 00:13:47.081 Yeah, you will feel better. 00:13:47.181 --> 00:13:47.791 Yeah, absolutely. 00:13:47.791 --> 00:13:48.761 You will feel better. 00:13:48.831 --> 00:13:51.681 And it's, it's, it's so fucking hard with some of them. 00:13:51.681 --> 00:13:51.871 Yeah. 00:13:52.371 --> 00:13:59.721 But, like, it's, it's an uncompromising, what I'm proposing is an uncompromising 00:13:59.751 --> 00:14:04.211 and what Emmett's talking about and, you know, the spirituality that I believe in 00:14:04.221 --> 00:14:08.761 is a completely uncompromising approach to forgiveness where you always forgive. 00:14:09.031 --> 00:14:09.391 Yeah. 00:14:09.601 --> 00:14:09.971 You know? 00:14:09.991 --> 00:14:10.191 Well, 00:14:10.191 --> 00:14:11.621 Sam: it's the essence of Christianity. 00:14:12.041 --> 00:14:15.401 So, and we probably need to get the religious DNA of this 00:14:15.411 --> 00:14:16.691 statement out into the open. 00:14:16.931 --> 00:14:20.281 Now that doesn't mean that, you know, atheists or people like me, 00:14:20.281 --> 00:14:22.401 agnostics, can't benefit from it. 00:14:23.131 --> 00:14:24.821 Because I think it's all coming from the same place. 00:14:24.831 --> 00:14:29.301 The same psychological insight that Ali just shared, I think, was expressed in a 00:14:29.311 --> 00:14:34.141 different way in the Sermon on the Mount or this Christian mystical tradition. 00:14:34.851 --> 00:14:36.851 Um, but there are many other examples. 00:14:38.091 --> 00:14:39.611 So, I won't, you know... 00:14:40.666 --> 00:14:44.096 I know I won't sidetrack us by like, you know, bringing in too many other examples, 00:14:44.096 --> 00:14:47.346 but there's one worth mentioning, you know, the Hare Krishna tradition that I 00:14:47.346 --> 00:14:54.141 grew up in, it, one of the big things that warned devotees against was cultivating 00:14:54.261 --> 00:14:56.401 resentments against other people. 00:14:56.411 --> 00:14:57.641 So that was like a big one. 00:14:57.641 --> 00:15:01.621 It's like, this is going to get in the way of your personal spiritual 00:15:01.621 --> 00:15:04.541 progress and it's going to get in the way of other people's progress as well. 00:15:04.541 --> 00:15:05.671 If you spend your time. 00:15:06.296 --> 00:15:10.726 You know, tearing other people down, even if maybe there's some 00:15:10.726 --> 00:15:11.926 justice in what you're saying. 00:15:12.016 --> 00:15:14.626 Um, but you just, you know, going around building your case against 00:15:14.656 --> 00:15:17.816 people, which is something I saw an awful lot of growing up. 00:15:17.916 --> 00:15:21.676 And God help me, I've done an awful lot of it myself. 00:15:22.111 --> 00:15:22.401 Yeah. 00:15:22.651 --> 00:15:27.261 Joe: Don't you think the, what I see, the vast majority of world political systems 00:15:27.261 --> 00:15:29.221 are built almost entirely on resentment? 00:15:29.461 --> 00:15:30.951 Sam: Well, fascism thrives on it. 00:15:31.051 --> 00:15:31.281 Yeah. 00:15:31.501 --> 00:15:31.761 Ali: Yeah. 00:15:32.161 --> 00:15:33.061 It's interesting, like one of 00:15:33.061 --> 00:15:33.081 Joe: the... 00:15:33.101 --> 00:15:37.161 Not just fascism, the left, I think more of the left when I think of resentment. 00:15:37.171 --> 00:15:39.541 Like, there's so much resentment. 00:15:39.601 --> 00:15:40.671 Proper, proper, 00:15:41.641 --> 00:15:46.371 Sam: proper positive action in progressive politics doesn't... 00:15:47.111 --> 00:15:50.171 Resentment is part of the mix that helps to bring issues out. 00:15:50.211 --> 00:15:52.101 Joe: Things are not forgiven on the left though. 00:15:52.111 --> 00:15:53.291 No, but we're... 00:15:53.291 --> 00:15:55.471 Things are not forgotten and they're not forgiven. 00:15:55.681 --> 00:15:56.041 Sam: I'm sorry. 00:15:56.051 --> 00:15:58.851 No, well sometimes you have to keep the record on the record. 00:15:59.181 --> 00:16:02.231 But I think that the best things I've seen come out of politics is, 00:16:02.291 --> 00:16:06.171 is at that point where you're like, look, at this point, we're not about 00:16:06.411 --> 00:16:08.741 dwelling on the grievances themselves. 00:16:09.161 --> 00:16:12.811 We've found something positive and useful that we think everyone should get 00:16:12.811 --> 00:16:14.911 behind and as a way of making it better. 00:16:14.951 --> 00:16:15.311 Which is... 00:16:15.311 --> 00:16:15.541 Yeah. 00:16:16.176 --> 00:16:19.286 Ali: Sort of, that's sort of the take that my psychologist would say 00:16:19.316 --> 00:16:21.406 is that there is justified anger. 00:16:21.766 --> 00:16:23.236 Absolutely justified anger. 00:16:23.256 --> 00:16:26.256 And because when I feel like angry or resentful about, you know, things 00:16:26.266 --> 00:16:30.056 that have happened and he's like, you're absolutely justified to feel 00:16:30.056 --> 00:16:31.436 that, but you still have to let it go. 00:16:31.656 --> 00:16:35.116 But so, but what it is, is it's not so much about letting it go. 00:16:35.216 --> 00:16:38.886 The letting go happens naturally when you then shift your focus 00:16:39.216 --> 00:16:40.626 to the positives, correct. 00:16:40.991 --> 00:16:41.741 In your life. 00:16:41.741 --> 00:16:44.311 And that's, and that's what I do in therapy. 00:16:44.311 --> 00:16:47.411 So it's like, it's acknowledging, okay, I'm angry about this 00:16:47.411 --> 00:16:48.041 or I'm upset about this. 00:16:48.081 --> 00:16:51.311 Oh, I don't have control over this, but these are the really good things. 00:16:51.321 --> 00:16:53.831 Let's focus on the really, cause, and that's, you know, well, that would 00:16:53.831 --> 00:16:57.201 come back down to like, you know, mindfulness or, you know, gratitude 00:16:57.201 --> 00:17:00.901 or whatever, however you, you practice it and actually acknowledging the 00:17:00.901 --> 00:17:03.551 really good parts of your life and focusing on building those up. 00:17:03.551 --> 00:17:07.161 So they become the bigger net, the things you're focusing on and then 00:17:07.161 --> 00:17:10.021 the things that are taking up that bandwidth in your mind, rather than. 00:17:10.516 --> 00:17:13.486 The, you know, the resentments, you know, ruminating and taking 00:17:13.666 --> 00:17:13.786 Sam: over. 00:17:14.276 --> 00:17:15.436 It's clouding your energies. 00:17:15.476 --> 00:17:18.176 It's robbing you of resources you can use on other things. 00:17:18.326 --> 00:17:22.716 And you know, what you're saying, focusing on the positive, that might sort 00:17:22.716 --> 00:17:24.696 of raise alarm bells for some people. 00:17:25.006 --> 00:17:27.566 So I wanted to kind of probe that a little bit more. 00:17:27.566 --> 00:17:29.626 I was trying to think, okay, what does that look like in my therapy? 00:17:29.626 --> 00:17:33.566 And it's like, well, it's, it's, it's building on the strengths, 00:17:33.746 --> 00:17:35.796 the victories you've had basically. 00:17:35.986 --> 00:17:36.136 Yeah. 00:17:36.566 --> 00:17:39.976 And just continuing to move forward with those, which usually. 00:17:41.086 --> 00:17:46.736 Will involve me doing something like, uh, going, well I've got an awful lot 00:17:46.736 --> 00:17:48.956 of things to forgive people for, right? 00:17:49.046 --> 00:17:51.736 And so I'll take your advice, Joe, and I'll just do it here and now, 00:17:51.746 --> 00:17:53.066 okay, everyone's forgiven, right? 00:17:53.221 --> 00:17:56.731 but what made that so much easier for me to even be in a position to like 00:17:56.731 --> 00:18:00.541 acknowledge the truth of what you're saying is realizing all the terrible 00:18:00.541 --> 00:18:02.971 things I've done and, and feeling, yeah. 00:18:03.091 --> 00:18:04.171 Feeling the appropriate 00:18:04.176 --> 00:18:04.681 Joe: shame. 00:18:04.686 --> 00:18:06.211 And, and I would say more than that. 00:18:06.216 --> 00:18:07.351 Write it all down. 00:18:07.381 --> 00:18:07.981 Yeah. 00:18:07.981 --> 00:18:07.982 Yeah. 00:18:08.161 --> 00:18:09.391 And tell someone Yeah. 00:18:09.451 --> 00:18:09.751 Yeah. 00:18:09.756 --> 00:18:11.131 Which is how I got sober. 00:18:11.251 --> 00:18:11.731 That's right. 00:18:12.331 --> 00:18:13.081 Wrote it all down. 00:18:13.111 --> 00:18:13.441 All of it. 00:18:13.501 --> 00:18:15.241 Everything that's ever happened, but. 00:18:15.591 --> 00:18:17.441 The past is not here with us. 00:18:17.521 --> 00:18:19.261 It's not here with us in this garage. 00:18:19.801 --> 00:18:22.671 The past is something only humans drag around with them. 00:18:22.721 --> 00:18:23.291 It echoes 00:18:23.301 --> 00:18:23.931 Sam: in our cells. 00:18:23.931 --> 00:18:25.201 Oh, absolutely, 00:18:25.241 --> 00:18:30.231 Joe: but, but, but we do always have a chance to come into the present moment. 00:18:30.291 --> 00:18:30.771 I agree. 00:18:30.961 --> 00:18:31.311 Right? 00:18:31.481 --> 00:18:36.071 But the more shit we drag around with us, the less present we are. 00:18:36.071 --> 00:18:36.421 Sure. 00:18:36.701 --> 00:18:41.831 You know, so, I know that's hackneyed, and the positivity, like, oh, Emmett, the 00:18:41.831 --> 00:18:46.666 Christian mystic, The stuff that I'm re reading and studying is actually about 00:18:46.666 --> 00:18:50.966 positive thinking, and I've never read a book on, this was a book on the sermon, 00:18:51.236 --> 00:18:52.716 a book about the Sermon on the Mount. 00:18:52.986 --> 00:18:56.526 I've never read a, I think I've read one historical biography of 00:18:56.526 --> 00:19:00.406 Jesus, um, but I've never read anything about Jesus teachings. 00:19:00.926 --> 00:19:04.436 But the thing that's blowing my mind from Emmett Fox's book is he 00:19:04.436 --> 00:19:08.536 talks about, apparently Jesus talked about the secret place, and the 00:19:08.536 --> 00:19:10.626 secret place is your consciousness. 00:19:11.331 --> 00:19:16.531 And actually, liberation and spiritual awakening happens at 00:19:16.541 --> 00:19:20.091 the level of every single thought. 00:19:20.551 --> 00:19:20.881 Sure. 00:19:21.041 --> 00:19:25.161 And what's blowing my mind is like, I'd gone somewhere along this 00:19:25.191 --> 00:19:29.091 path and worried and focused on my behaviors and actions in the world. 00:19:29.641 --> 00:19:33.691 But I hadn't gone the final measure, which is, I need to be 00:19:33.691 --> 00:19:36.101 responsible for all of my thoughts. 00:19:36.431 --> 00:19:40.636 And what Emmett would say is, if your thoughts are horrible, You all 00:19:40.636 --> 00:19:45.686 have a horrible life, you know, and resentments are the ultimate horrible 00:19:45.696 --> 00:19:51.206 thoughts because you're playing, you're usually, you're focusing on horrible 00:19:51.216 --> 00:19:54.616 things that have happened to you or perceived horrible things and the 00:19:54.616 --> 00:19:56.296 most horrible people in the world. 00:19:56.296 --> 00:19:58.036 In their most horrible states. 00:19:58.246 --> 00:20:01.546 And, and if that's in your secret place as apparently I haven't read the 00:20:01.546 --> 00:20:04.666 book, but apparently if that's what Jesus called it, then that's will, 00:20:04.671 --> 00:20:06.556 will manifest in your outer life. 00:20:06.586 --> 00:20:10.096 It will, Emmett would go so far as to say it'll manifest in illnesses. 00:20:10.156 --> 00:20:10.516 Yes. 00:20:10.576 --> 00:20:11.356 Yeah, it will. 00:20:11.361 --> 00:20:11.776 It will. 00:20:12.016 --> 00:20:12.766 It will make you 00:20:12.766 --> 00:20:14.296 Sam: shrivel up all if that's true. 00:20:14.686 --> 00:20:18.586 And it will get in you, it will get in the way of your capacity to enjoy what's 00:20:18.676 --> 00:20:23.476 there right now in the present, in the middle of all of it, you know, instead of. 00:20:24.176 --> 00:20:29.196 You know, Oh, I'm too busy feeling bad about this when these children right 00:20:29.196 --> 00:20:34.476 here, yeah, they need my attention and, and something good could be happening 00:20:34.476 --> 00:20:36.016 right now if I just allowed it. 00:20:36.226 --> 00:20:36.426 Yeah. 00:20:36.906 --> 00:20:41.756 But I'm too busy feeling that I'm, I'm right, I'm in the right and I'm going 00:20:41.756 --> 00:20:46.496 to continue rehearsing the, the case that I have for being in the right 00:20:46.496 --> 00:20:48.006 and it's like, who's this helping? 00:20:48.016 --> 00:20:48.496 It makes you 00:20:48.496 --> 00:20:48.826 Ali: bitter. 00:20:49.076 --> 00:20:50.156 It just makes you really bitter. 00:20:50.156 --> 00:20:51.326 Like, and I've watched. 00:20:52.821 --> 00:20:58.501 Like working in aged care for a number of years and some people who, you 00:20:58.501 --> 00:21:01.241 know, they talk about getting bitter in their old age and they really... 00:21:01.721 --> 00:21:06.441 And I've genuinely observed that in that they've, they let those thoughts 00:21:06.451 --> 00:21:10.781 just, they become the narrative, the narrative that all that, because, you 00:21:10.781 --> 00:21:12.331 know, their friends have passed away. 00:21:12.491 --> 00:21:13.331 Their family's passed away. 00:21:13.331 --> 00:21:14.301 Their partner's passed away. 00:21:14.571 --> 00:21:16.311 The kids don't want to come and see them anymore because they're just. 00:21:17.456 --> 00:21:17.626 Yeah. 00:21:17.626 --> 00:21:17.786 No. 00:21:17.786 --> 00:21:21.466 And it's just, and so it's just these horrible, it's just this horrible 00:21:21.466 --> 00:21:25.056 festering sort of bitterness and resentment towards the end of their life. 00:21:25.566 --> 00:21:28.346 And I just, I could not think of anything worse 00:21:28.616 --> 00:21:29.366 Sam: for myself. 00:21:29.376 --> 00:21:29.646 Yeah. 00:21:29.676 --> 00:21:34.186 It's bad enough to have wasted this much of my twenties, thirties and forties, you 00:21:34.186 --> 00:21:36.086 know, it's like, let that be an end to it. 00:21:36.086 --> 00:21:36.256 Yes. 00:21:36.606 --> 00:21:36.826 Yeah, 00:21:36.926 --> 00:21:37.396 Ali: absolutely. 00:21:37.726 --> 00:21:38.546 Absolutely. 00:21:38.606 --> 00:21:40.496 Like, yeah, so much 00:21:40.496 --> 00:21:41.006 Sam: wasted. 00:21:41.036 --> 00:21:44.826 Well, actually, as my therapist would say, Oh, sorry, buddy, you kind of wasted. 00:21:45.441 --> 00:21:50.441 A lot of your childhood also, your teenage years, he says, Oh, 00:21:50.441 --> 00:21:51.861 you think it's this recent stuff? 00:21:51.861 --> 00:21:53.031 No, you got to go way back. 00:21:53.591 --> 00:21:58.081 And you know, that's the thing, like the stuff you have to forgive the most 00:21:58.091 --> 00:22:00.051 is often the most distant in time. 00:22:00.521 --> 00:22:04.841 And you know, you might have the least clarity about it because you know, 00:22:04.841 --> 00:22:10.971 you're only a child and you know, trying to understand, we've talked, we've 00:22:10.971 --> 00:22:13.851 covered this on the pod before, but man, yeah, it really is worth repeating. 00:22:14.886 --> 00:22:19.166 Uh, when I became a parent, uh, I immediately, almost immediately began 00:22:19.176 --> 00:22:23.716 having, like, a lot of intrusive thoughts that were very tough to deal 00:22:23.716 --> 00:22:28.146 with and, you know, women are fairly accustomed now, still a bit of a taboo, 00:22:28.146 --> 00:22:33.856 to talking about postnatal depression, um, but I think maybe, maybe we're less 00:22:33.856 --> 00:22:38.376 comfortable with, you know, not just the organic depression that sometimes 00:22:38.376 --> 00:22:45.746 occurs, but just like acknowledging, oh man, I immediately started enacting bad 00:22:45.756 --> 00:22:49.696 habits that I learned from my parents and everyone has to go through that and 00:22:49.696 --> 00:22:53.446 you, and you have to notice them and then you feel like a horrible person 00:22:53.446 --> 00:22:54.696 and you don't want to forgive yourself. 00:22:54.696 --> 00:22:55.526 You feel all this shame. 00:22:55.526 --> 00:22:58.066 Oh my God, I've done all this damage that can never be undone. 00:22:58.576 --> 00:23:06.066 It's like, well, on the grand scale, you've not messed it up that badly just 00:23:06.066 --> 00:23:08.876 yet and continue focusing on, you know. 00:23:10.831 --> 00:23:17.481 The control you have now, you know, and, and not renouncing it to, because, you 00:23:17.481 --> 00:23:22.041 know, like having the revelation fairly early on, like changing a nappy about 00:23:22.041 --> 00:23:26.731 six months old in the middle of the night and like suddenly remembering the 00:23:26.731 --> 00:23:28.951 experience of someone changing my nappy. 00:23:29.001 --> 00:23:29.271 What? 00:23:29.511 --> 00:23:30.411 You can remember that far back? 00:23:30.411 --> 00:23:37.071 It's like, it's, well, it's a very, it's like, it's a memory is the right word. 00:23:37.386 --> 00:23:40.606 But it doesn't resemble even like the five year old memories I've got. 00:23:40.656 --> 00:23:45.076 It's like it was through sensation, because my hands were cold, right? 00:23:45.296 --> 00:23:47.566 And I'm sleep deprived and there's all this, you know, like 00:23:47.566 --> 00:23:48.826 in a very suggestible state. 00:23:49.766 --> 00:23:54.146 And all of it, my son's body reacted to like the coldness of my 00:23:54.146 --> 00:23:55.046 hands in the middle of the night. 00:23:55.116 --> 00:23:58.286 And all of a sudden I had like a sense memory of cold hands. 00:23:59.306 --> 00:24:00.816 Like, and I, and like. 00:24:01.591 --> 00:24:05.031 Uh, and actually, this is not so bad, I also had a memory of like 00:24:05.061 --> 00:24:08.181 doing a way in the middle of that and it like, like, and I was like, 00:24:08.181 --> 00:24:09.981 Oh wow, it's all coming back to me. 00:24:10.321 --> 00:24:14.841 And then like, and then I had this sudden realization that like, Oh, I 00:24:14.881 --> 00:24:20.371 am my parents and they were me and he is, this child is me and I'm, okay. 00:24:20.381 --> 00:24:24.091 It's like the illusion of the separate self, the separate, you 00:24:24.091 --> 00:24:27.801 know, the illusion of the You know, we're all individuals, right? 00:24:28.721 --> 00:24:32.821 So feeling that like epic cosmic connection to like all the generations 00:24:32.821 --> 00:24:35.451 before and to the one coming after me, I was like, Oh, okay. 00:24:35.601 --> 00:24:36.981 That was a really big help. 00:24:37.011 --> 00:24:40.201 And that one, that was like my acid moment without acid, just, it happened 00:24:40.221 --> 00:24:41.871 early on in the experience of parenting. 00:24:41.901 --> 00:24:46.111 Thank God for that because that was the key that started to unlock all the 00:24:46.111 --> 00:24:49.631 other stuff and then going, Oh man, my parents made so many mistakes and I 00:24:49.661 --> 00:24:51.891 go, Oh God, I've got to forgive them. 00:24:52.816 --> 00:24:57.586 Ah, I understand, but then I was given the equipment to understand at the same time. 00:24:57.616 --> 00:24:59.766 Oh, I can see why they made these mistakes. 00:24:59.856 --> 00:25:00.676 Ah, okay. 00:25:00.966 --> 00:25:05.606 Now it's, once you begin to, once you realize this is very therapy stuff, 00:25:05.876 --> 00:25:09.866 once you realize you can get better and that you want to get better, that's it. 00:25:10.556 --> 00:25:12.026 It's all possible after that. 00:25:12.536 --> 00:25:13.436 Still takes a lot of 00:25:13.436 --> 00:25:13.804 Ali: work though. 00:25:13.804 --> 00:25:16.646 So much work, like you just think, okay, I've talked about it, I'm 00:25:16.646 --> 00:25:18.206 done now, I'm good, I'm well. 00:25:18.846 --> 00:25:19.356 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:25:19.416 --> 00:25:20.216 And then it's just 00:25:20.226 --> 00:25:21.056 Joe: so much work. 00:25:21.126 --> 00:25:26.545 I mean, I had a period this year where, you know, I'd gone into 00:25:26.545 --> 00:25:31.815 therapy and I had known that my dad had fucked his life up and died. 00:25:32.545 --> 00:25:33.425 So that was obvious. 00:25:34.355 --> 00:25:34.625 Yeah. 00:25:36.170 --> 00:25:38.950 But I'd always protected my mum in my own mind. 00:25:39.670 --> 00:25:43.670 And then what became obvious was that mum had sort of fucked things up as well, 00:25:44.980 --> 00:25:49.720 which is the ultimate therapy cliche I guess, but then it led to some hard 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:57.160 conversations with my mum and a bit of tension, but then I had to look again 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.160 in the present moment and who's standing before me is this kind little old lady. 00:26:03.645 --> 00:26:09.005 Who loves me unconditionally, and only wants the best for me, with 00:26:09.345 --> 00:26:12.635 clearly her own horrific trauma history, much worse than mine. 00:26:13.625 --> 00:26:18.405 And it's like, it took a few months, and it wasn't, I just, I didn't even 00:26:18.415 --> 00:26:22.655 have resentments, I had, my therapist and I had to dig them up, have a look 00:26:22.655 --> 00:26:27.045 at them, I didn't even know they were there, have some hard conversations 00:26:27.165 --> 00:26:28.615 with my mum on some long walks. 00:26:29.595 --> 00:26:34.135 Feel all the uncomfortable feelings, and then, back into the present 00:26:34.135 --> 00:26:35.965 moment, completely forgive the past. 00:26:35.965 --> 00:26:38.075 And I think it goes to what you were saying, and maybe that's 00:26:38.075 --> 00:26:43.445 where Emmett's got it wrong, is now it's a different peace between us. 00:26:43.445 --> 00:26:46.235 It's a peace after some conflict, you know? 00:26:46.235 --> 00:26:50.335 It's not this peace based with simmering resentment, that's so deep 00:26:50.335 --> 00:26:51.905 down, because you can't hate your mum. 00:26:52.555 --> 00:26:56.715 So, so deep down that, like, why am I shitty after five minutes in a company? 00:26:57.105 --> 00:27:00.315 And then, in the hard conversation, she said, well, you've always seemed 00:27:00.315 --> 00:27:03.275 to have this bitterness towards me. 00:27:03.905 --> 00:27:06.665 And in my mind, no, no, I love you unconditionally. 00:27:07.215 --> 00:27:08.805 I have no bitterness towards my mum. 00:27:08.805 --> 00:27:10.805 My dad fucked his life up and died. 00:27:11.525 --> 00:27:12.905 Mum is the rock. 00:27:13.370 --> 00:27:17.500 Mum always, you know, was there, did the right things financially. 00:27:17.510 --> 00:27:19.230 Sam: So you're being unfair to her there, when you won't 00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:20.720 admit to the resentment, you 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:20.970 know. 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:23.780 Joe: But yeah, it was never a human picture of her. 00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:28.770 And then once what the therapy revealed is, is her shortcomings, and the ways 00:27:28.800 --> 00:27:31.470 in which she fucked me up as a kid. 00:27:32.310 --> 00:27:35.540 And now I have, I mean, I spoke to her on the way here to record this, 00:27:35.540 --> 00:27:39.590 like I have a good, solid relationship with her, but some stuff's been 00:27:39.610 --> 00:27:41.820 aired, some stuff's been dealt with. 00:27:42.569 --> 00:27:44.549 and then the forgiveness is the crucial part. 00:27:44.569 --> 00:27:47.259 That's, the action is actually in the forgiveness. 00:27:47.269 --> 00:27:49.559 The action is not in the digging up the past. 00:27:49.899 --> 00:27:52.039 It's what people don't get about therapy, I think. 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:54.089 It's like, well, why do I want to dig up dirt on my mum? 00:27:54.089 --> 00:27:56.169 I kind of get why you don't want to do that. 00:27:56.589 --> 00:27:59.469 But when you dig it up, you're willing to have the hard conversation 00:27:59.989 --> 00:28:01.929 and then you're willing to forgive. 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:07.839 It's like, suddenly, you're in a new realm of that relationship, you know, 00:28:08.159 --> 00:28:09.759 which is nice, which I get to do that. 00:28:10.459 --> 00:28:14.549 My mom's in her seventies, you know, I get to do that as part of our life together. 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:19.499 So thank God for therapy in that, in that respect, but I wouldn't say it was easy. 00:28:19.499 --> 00:28:22.079 And there was a time for a few months this year where I was 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.759 really fucking angry at my mom. 00:28:23.769 --> 00:28:24.019 Yeah. 00:28:24.219 --> 00:28:24.409 Yeah. 00:28:24.589 --> 00:28:28.594 You know, but I never allowed that for myself as a teenager 00:28:28.594 --> 00:28:30.064 or when that shit was happening. 00:28:30.494 --> 00:28:31.404 I dig it. 00:28:31.504 --> 00:28:31.944 Sam: I dig it. 00:28:32.004 --> 00:28:32.194 Yeah. 00:28:32.284 --> 00:28:37.814 I had a, not quite the same cause I can't talk to her, but you know, I uncovered. 00:28:38.564 --> 00:28:42.194 The fact that, Oh man, no, I actually am really cross at this 00:28:42.194 --> 00:28:45.054 person and yeah, it was good. 00:28:45.244 --> 00:28:46.194 It's good to do it. 00:28:46.474 --> 00:28:47.584 Um, essential. 00:28:47.744 --> 00:28:51.454 Look, if you want to honor the person and honor yourself, like it's 00:28:51.454 --> 00:28:52.714 it, you have a duty to the truth. 00:28:52.764 --> 00:28:53.394 You do like 00:28:53.394 --> 00:28:57.314 Ali: a complete picture of that person and faults and all. 00:28:57.314 --> 00:28:58.174 And that's right. 00:28:58.509 --> 00:29:02.279 It's going from that stage of childhood idealism that we want to have of our 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:06.199 parents and them being right because they're supposed to be the protectors and 00:29:06.199 --> 00:29:10.869 to keep us safe and, you know, so it's an idealized version and then realizing, 00:29:10.879 --> 00:29:16.009 oh, hang on, they've made some mistakes or they're imperfect people too and, 00:29:16.469 --> 00:29:21.139 and yeah, getting to a place of, okay, well, what impact has that had on me? 00:29:21.139 --> 00:29:23.699 And that's the exploration that you have in therapy. 00:29:23.979 --> 00:29:27.169 But then, yeah, moving past that towards forgiveness and going, okay, well, 00:29:27.574 --> 00:29:31.304 They did the best they could with the tools they had, or the understanding of 00:29:31.304 --> 00:29:34.684 why they made the decisions that they did, even if they were the wrong ones. 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:37.530 and yeah, moving to a place of real forgiveness. 00:29:37.530 --> 00:29:38.710 Like, I mean, I've certainly... 00:29:39.235 --> 00:29:43.575 with my mum, which, you know, over the years we had a very, say, 00:29:43.575 --> 00:29:46.345 tumultuous sort of relationship. 00:29:46.365 --> 00:29:49.835 But like, you know, in the last, particularly the last few years in 00:29:49.835 --> 00:29:54.075 therapy, it's been, and also I think for herself and the work that she's 00:29:54.075 --> 00:29:58.365 done on herself and her understanding of herself, it's been huge for both 00:29:58.365 --> 00:30:02.035 of us and understanding, I think actually just having diagnoses 00:30:02.035 --> 00:30:04.155 for both of us and understanding. 00:30:04.820 --> 00:30:05.340 Oh, okay. 00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:06.780 There are reasons for these things. 00:30:06.780 --> 00:30:09.610 It's not that this person actually intentionally, a lot of the stuff 00:30:09.610 --> 00:30:13.050 that we had done or the hurt that we caused each other was so much 00:30:13.050 --> 00:30:18.490 to do with the behaviors around our diagnoses, rather than actually, it was 00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:23.500 never anything malicious or anything, you know, intentional about it. 00:30:23.530 --> 00:30:27.600 It was always just, you know, rubbing each other the wrong way, basically. 00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:28.610 And, you know, and. 00:30:29.205 --> 00:30:32.805 Yeah, and so, so much of that we've been able to move past from, and 00:30:32.815 --> 00:30:37.055 it's been, relationships entirely different now than it was five years 00:30:37.055 --> 00:30:37.315 Joe: ago. 00:30:37.395 --> 00:30:38.415 Have you forgiven her? 00:30:38.775 --> 00:30:38.885 Yeah. 00:30:39.235 --> 00:30:40.395 Have you forgiven your father? 00:30:40.405 --> 00:30:41.075 Best so. 00:30:42.765 --> 00:30:43.255 Does he listen to 00:30:43.255 --> 00:30:43.705 Ali: the show? 00:30:43.775 --> 00:30:45.125 He does, he has, yeah. 00:30:45.126 --> 00:30:45.415 He has. 00:30:45.415 --> 00:30:45.775 Yeah, yeah. 00:30:45.975 --> 00:30:47.455 Look, he would understand. 00:30:47.525 --> 00:30:50.735 Yeah, like, there's, there's absolutely forgiven him in, in 00:30:50.765 --> 00:30:52.805 so many ways with so many things. 00:30:53.285 --> 00:30:57.025 And there's still a few things, like I said, you know, that are still, 00:30:57.745 --> 00:30:58.905 you know, still working through. 00:30:58.905 --> 00:30:59.965 And I know he's got. 00:31:01.025 --> 00:31:03.675 I don't know that he'll ever be able to forgive me for the things 00:31:03.685 --> 00:31:07.265 he's perceived, um, or things of me. 00:31:07.715 --> 00:31:11.105 So, um, so there is still that tension between the two of 00:31:11.105 --> 00:31:11.515 Joe: us. 00:31:12.045 --> 00:31:15.945 Because, because I didn't know that I had any issues with 00:31:15.965 --> 00:31:18.805 my mother, I have created... 00:31:19.810 --> 00:31:23.420 25 years of resentments in my relationship with women. 00:31:24.530 --> 00:31:29.270 And I need to go out somehow and ask for forgiveness, but God knows none of them 00:31:29.270 --> 00:31:30.530 are going to listen to this podcast. 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:31.490 Well, they might. 00:31:32.040 --> 00:31:35.580 And God knows I don't know how to switch that part of me off that 00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:37.320 is fucking up those relationships. 00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:40.040 But if I didn't think it was of... 00:31:49.310 --> 00:31:49.980 Sam: I mean, I do. 00:31:50.040 --> 00:31:50.580 No, I do. 00:31:50.930 --> 00:31:57.180 The amount of work you put in to trying to, he's like, one 00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:58.280 day even just spelt it out. 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:00.836 Look, put it on me. 00:32:01.306 --> 00:32:06.186 Like literally the bitterness, the resentment, the anger, the abuse 00:32:06.476 --> 00:32:08.936 that you want to give to this person. 00:32:09.026 --> 00:32:09.746 Just give it to me. 00:32:09.766 --> 00:32:10.866 It's what you're doing anyway. 00:32:10.986 --> 00:32:13.856 You're just doing it in passive aggressive ways instead of like 00:32:13.856 --> 00:32:16.336 coming at it, you know, like go at it. 00:32:17.451 --> 00:32:22.781 I can take it, you know, and, you know, and just going just 00:32:22.781 --> 00:32:23.971 a little bit of the way in. 00:32:23.971 --> 00:32:25.511 Yeah, I'm gonna, yep, all right. 00:32:26.261 --> 00:32:32.031 I'm going to tell the truth about the folks and not just them, other adults. 00:32:32.491 --> 00:32:32.801 Okay. 00:32:32.831 --> 00:32:37.691 Now I'm going to defend them and just, you know, I had to watch me put up 00:32:37.691 --> 00:32:39.091 the walls and start defending them. 00:32:39.091 --> 00:32:39.991 And it's like, okay. 00:32:40.131 --> 00:32:40.371 All right. 00:32:40.371 --> 00:32:43.131 Well, you have to ask yourself, who are you protecting here? 00:32:43.351 --> 00:32:44.411 What are you protecting? 00:32:44.571 --> 00:32:44.851 You know. 00:32:45.251 --> 00:32:46.681 Why are you defending this? 00:32:46.711 --> 00:32:51.561 And as everything in therapy does, in my opinion, it all eventually leads 00:32:51.561 --> 00:32:54.721 back to some sort of self protection, like the things you're doing. 00:32:54.781 --> 00:32:54.871 Yeah, 00:32:55.361 --> 00:32:56.021 Ali: absolutely. 00:32:56.071 --> 00:32:58.861 That's exactly what my psychologist would say. 00:32:58.861 --> 00:33:02.321 It's just your brain has decided to do this because it needed to 00:33:02.321 --> 00:33:03.971 keep you safe in that moment. 00:33:04.171 --> 00:33:05.231 And that's what was keeping you safe. 00:33:05.231 --> 00:33:06.691 Sam: Your brain's decided to do what? 00:33:06.771 --> 00:33:09.061 To maintain the illusion that the parents were good after all. 00:33:09.741 --> 00:33:13.351 Ali: So, for you, your protection was having an idealised version of 00:33:13.351 --> 00:33:15.821 your mother, was to keep, kept you 00:33:15.821 --> 00:33:16.281 safe. 00:33:16.351 --> 00:33:19.421 Sam: It wasn't about being nice to her, it was serving your purposes. 00:33:19.421 --> 00:33:22.381 Ali: It was serving your, yeah, it was like, if my mum's, like, there's 00:33:22.381 --> 00:33:25.141 nothing wrong with my relationship with my mum and my mum's great, she's, you 00:33:25.141 --> 00:33:29.941 know, and it's an idealised version of her that keeps you safe in that 00:33:30.121 --> 00:33:32.111 you've had the parent that you needed. 00:33:33.961 --> 00:33:36.171 Joe: But most people would never unpick that, right? 00:33:36.321 --> 00:33:37.121 Sam: Well, yeah, of course. 00:33:37.151 --> 00:33:38.301 Yeah, unless you go therapy. 00:33:38.311 --> 00:33:38.591 Yeah. 00:33:39.871 --> 00:33:41.341 Or they've got a very, very... 00:33:41.686 --> 00:33:45.286 Clever friend who makes just the right remark at the right time 00:33:45.286 --> 00:33:47.806 and it starts something, you know, it's gotta be a bit more thorough. 00:33:47.806 --> 00:33:51.076 There are, there are sometimes processes that can occur organically. 00:33:51.081 --> 00:33:54.346 I will say that does happen sometimes, but everyone, if you're 00:33:54.346 --> 00:33:56.956 listening to this is ringing any bells at all, just go to therapy. 00:33:56.956 --> 00:33:58.756 Don't wait for the organic accident to happen. 00:33:58.756 --> 00:33:59.161 Yeah, take charge. 00:33:59.621 --> 00:33:59.841 . Yes. 00:34:00.281 --> 00:34:00.521 . I guess 00:34:00.721 --> 00:34:04.756 Joe: I could get, yeah, I've never really thought about how much time. 00:34:05.531 --> 00:34:09.101 I spent with those two humans from the age of 0 to 18. 00:34:09.531 --> 00:34:14.061 Well, I moved out of home the day I turned 20, so the exact first 20 years of my 00:34:14.061 --> 00:34:19.811 life, like, the shit, that's what came to me, was like, my god, like, the shit 00:34:19.811 --> 00:34:21.701 that was going on when I was a teenager. 00:34:22.911 --> 00:34:27.521 And, and I very early, at a very early age, went into like, drug use, like, 00:34:27.521 --> 00:34:32.121 smoking weed, and if you're smoking weed and hanging out with your friends, 00:34:32.601 --> 00:34:37.126 and Listening to Hendrix properly for the first time and just sort 00:34:37.126 --> 00:34:38.516 of blowing your mind and whatever. 00:34:38.526 --> 00:34:39.466 Yeah, I remember it. 00:34:39.486 --> 00:34:43.976 Then if, if other things are going on with the adults, like who gives 00:34:43.976 --> 00:34:47.376 a f Yeah, like the adults are letting me smoke weed in the house. 00:34:47.406 --> 00:34:49.676 Yeah, I'm having all the friends over. 00:34:49.736 --> 00:34:53.706 I'm bipolar So the weed is doing like much more for me than it's doing for them. 00:34:53.716 --> 00:34:57.286 Yes, and the Hendrix Yeah, and like that's what I did. 00:34:57.286 --> 00:35:01.416 I checked out man Things are things got rough around 15, 16 and I just 00:35:01.416 --> 00:35:05.306 checked out with drugs dissociation and I kept that going for 10 years and 00:35:05.306 --> 00:35:10.431 then I checked out with alcohol for 10 years and then I stopped and then Five 00:35:10.431 --> 00:35:12.641 years after that, I started therapy. 00:35:13.161 --> 00:35:17.271 But by the time I got to therapy, I had this addiction recovery understanding 00:35:17.271 --> 00:35:18.841 of the importance of resentment. 00:35:19.561 --> 00:35:22.241 So, I'd done a lot of grunt work. 00:35:22.731 --> 00:35:27.241 Um, but the mother stuff was still very hidden. 00:35:28.071 --> 00:35:32.781 And how it impacts my relationships with women, I still... 00:35:32.801 --> 00:35:35.141 You guys would probably have a better read on that than me. 00:35:35.581 --> 00:35:36.901 From the inside, I can't... 00:35:37.381 --> 00:35:38.621 I know that it's there. 00:35:39.306 --> 00:35:44.586 But I, I know, and I know it's probably the key to the whole series 00:35:44.586 --> 00:35:49.436 of unfortunate events, but I, I, I, I can't put it all together and at the 00:35:49.436 --> 00:35:53.126 moment I can't afford more therapy, so I'm on a break until next year. 00:35:53.186 --> 00:35:55.516 Sam: Well, maybe, I mean, maybe I can help out a little bit. 00:35:55.676 --> 00:35:57.966 Uh, Ali, Ali, do you, I feel like... 00:36:00.226 --> 00:36:03.436 Ali: No, I just, I was just going to say, like, I think, like, 00:36:03.436 --> 00:36:07.666 to come back to that point of, like, I've been keeping you safe. 00:36:07.956 --> 00:36:11.846 And I think that is really the root of all of my, 00:36:12.526 --> 00:36:12.876 Joe: yeah. 00:36:13.376 --> 00:36:17.596 Oh, so maybe I'm looking for another woman to perform the same role. 00:36:17.626 --> 00:36:19.896 Ali: That will keep you, that will, it'll somehow... 00:36:19.906 --> 00:36:20.466 That makes sense actually. 00:36:20.656 --> 00:36:20.916 You need 00:36:20.916 --> 00:36:22.536 Sam: to be the safety that the mother wasn't. 00:36:22.566 --> 00:36:23.646 Ali: Yeah, and it'll be... 00:36:23.916 --> 00:36:24.776 Need them to be the safety. 00:36:24.826 --> 00:36:27.906 And you'll be safe when you're in this loving, stable relationship. 00:36:28.736 --> 00:36:29.796 Oh, but that person 00:36:30.016 --> 00:36:31.366 Joe: they never existed in the first place. 00:36:31.396 --> 00:36:31.686 Well, that's 00:36:31.886 --> 00:36:32.086 Sam: the problem. 00:36:32.796 --> 00:36:33.676 So instead of... 00:36:34.016 --> 00:36:38.696 Making her the safety that you thought you had with the mother or 00:36:38.696 --> 00:36:41.056 maybe you're a little bit wiser and you're like you're going to be the 00:36:41.056 --> 00:36:44.736 safety that I didn't have with the mother, but the further insight... 00:36:45.486 --> 00:36:46.076 Ali: How can you make 00:36:46.076 --> 00:36:46.896 Sam: yourself safe? 00:36:46.946 --> 00:36:47.496 Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:36:47.506 --> 00:36:50.066 Joe: Ah, and my answer to that is God. 00:36:50.326 --> 00:36:52.026 Yes, or drugs and alcohol, that's right. 00:36:52.036 --> 00:36:59.626 Well now it's God, so now it's a higher power and I place my emotional security 00:36:59.636 --> 00:37:02.536 in the hands of my loving higher power. 00:37:02.536 --> 00:37:03.326 Well, I'm having a... 00:37:03.906 --> 00:37:10.316 Deepening relationship with, and I will no longer ever hand that over to a woman. 00:37:11.076 --> 00:37:11.806 That's the plan. 00:37:11.896 --> 00:37:12.156 Yeah. 00:37:12.156 --> 00:37:15.866 Sam: Or, or, or for that matter to, you know, your guru cult leader or 00:37:15.886 --> 00:37:17.956 to, you know, whoever, but yeah. 00:37:17.956 --> 00:37:18.766 Yeah, for sure. 00:37:18.766 --> 00:37:19.106 Yeah. 00:37:19.116 --> 00:37:22.276 Cause everything, everything's deeply parental, you know, if you buy into like 00:37:22.426 --> 00:37:26.866 the Western psychoanalytical tradition, which I do, but, uh, and you know, I can 00:37:26.866 --> 00:37:28.406 find evidence for that elsewhere too. 00:37:30.501 --> 00:37:32.801 But the further insight that I was actually going to mention, though, 00:37:32.801 --> 00:37:35.601 I mean, Ali, excellent point, but the other bit I was going to mention 00:37:35.601 --> 00:37:40.841 was, okay, so you, you are now going to play out the safety that I had. 00:37:40.931 --> 00:37:42.661 Oh, the safety I didn't have. 00:37:42.971 --> 00:37:46.681 Oh, but what's actually going to get played out is the 00:37:46.751 --> 00:37:47.711 thing that actually happened. 00:37:47.721 --> 00:37:48.141 Yes, 00:37:48.281 --> 00:37:48.621 Ali: exactly. 00:37:48.891 --> 00:37:50.001 Cause that's, what's familiar. 00:37:50.011 --> 00:37:50.461 Cause that's what, 00:37:52.241 --> 00:37:53.891 Joe: like a tumultuous relationship between 00:37:54.331 --> 00:37:54.651 Ali: two adults. 00:37:54.661 --> 00:37:55.931 Cause that's what you've witnessed. 00:37:55.941 --> 00:37:57.341 That's what feels normal to you. 00:37:57.351 --> 00:37:59.331 That's what feels safe to you because that's what. 00:38:00.066 --> 00:38:00.826 It's incredibly 00:38:00.826 --> 00:38:01.156 Joe: depressing. 00:38:01.166 --> 00:38:06.286 That just says to me, I should just, it's incredibly depressing because that 00:38:06.286 --> 00:38:09.446 just says to me, I should just lock myself in my room and never go outside. 00:38:11.936 --> 00:38:15.566 This and God knows I promote this on dating apps and women go and listen to it. 00:38:16.206 --> 00:38:19.386 Um, yeah, who listening to this would want to date me if I'm walking around 00:38:19.396 --> 00:38:23.606 with a tumultuous relationship that I'm looking to play out again and again 00:38:23.606 --> 00:38:24.166 Sam: and again. 00:38:24.216 --> 00:38:25.536 They just heard you have a revelation. 00:38:25.536 --> 00:38:27.246 You're one step ahead of where you were before. 00:38:27.426 --> 00:38:29.446 Joe: And so what you do, a few steps ahead of a lot of fucking 00:38:29.456 --> 00:38:30.126 guys in this town, exactly. 00:38:30.816 --> 00:38:31.266 And so 00:38:31.266 --> 00:38:36.636 Ali: when you get to this place where you then you're so aware of, Oh, like, you 00:38:36.636 --> 00:38:39.416 know, they talk about like the red flags or whatever it is you want to call them. 00:38:39.416 --> 00:38:41.116 But then when you then meet somebody. 00:38:41.551 --> 00:38:46.031 And then you start to see these certain dynamics that feel really familiar, like 00:38:46.041 --> 00:38:47.821 I know how this is going to play out. 00:38:47.821 --> 00:38:48.551 Sometimes they feel comfortable. 00:38:48.551 --> 00:38:51.201 They feel really comfortable and they might feel really good even. 00:38:51.501 --> 00:38:52.131 Or they might trigger 00:38:52.131 --> 00:38:53.181 Sam: you a second later. 00:38:53.251 --> 00:38:53.831 Exactly. 00:38:53.831 --> 00:38:56.911 Ali: And so, but what they, you realize is this is not good for 00:38:56.921 --> 00:38:58.281 me or this is not healthy for me. 00:38:58.541 --> 00:38:59.391 I'm not going to date. 00:38:59.391 --> 00:39:01.921 And you make, consciously make the decision to not engage in that. 00:39:01.991 --> 00:39:05.351 Or you like, I see all these other good qualities in this person. 00:39:06.266 --> 00:39:10.776 I'm not going to engage in these dynamics, this is how I'm going to be in this 00:39:10.776 --> 00:39:14.226 relationship and whether that person can then match that and it's healthy. 00:39:14.626 --> 00:39:19.906 You can consciously choose to have your relationship in a different way 00:39:19.906 --> 00:39:23.726 to what you, feels instinctual to you. 00:39:23.726 --> 00:39:24.256 Hmm. 00:39:24.726 --> 00:39:27.656 And that's the thing, it's actually undoing what feels instinctual, and that 00:39:27.846 --> 00:39:33.106 instinctual behavior is created through, yeah, childhood, and parents, and trauma, 00:39:33.446 --> 00:39:37.746 and witnessing their marriages, and all that sort of stuff, you can, all of that, 00:39:37.776 --> 00:39:42.441 yeah, it, it, you, you can make, and I, I mean, as a, If I look at the evolution 00:39:42.441 --> 00:39:47.291 of my significant relationships and sort of my first major relationship, a lot 00:39:47.291 --> 00:39:51.681 of, you know, it wasn't exactly like my parents, but like, it was, it played out 00:39:51.811 --> 00:39:55.801 quite similarly, the dynamic, because, and I, I realized after the fact, like, 00:39:55.801 --> 00:40:00.531 oh wow, that was so similar, but, and the, the next significant relationship 00:40:00.531 --> 00:40:04.291 I had after that looked quite different, but there was still elements of that. 00:40:04.611 --> 00:40:05.501 And then I've. 00:40:05.841 --> 00:40:09.061 The people I've dated, you know, after that, it's looked less 00:40:09.081 --> 00:40:10.781 and less and less like that. 00:40:11.271 --> 00:40:11.521 So... 00:40:11.761 --> 00:40:12.761 Evolution's the right word. 00:40:12.771 --> 00:40:13.481 Yeah, it really is. 00:40:13.481 --> 00:40:14.151 It's an evolution. 00:40:14.151 --> 00:40:18.511 And so, you know, I'm now at a place where I'm going into a relationship with... 00:40:19.151 --> 00:40:23.621 A very different view of what I want, what I expect, what 00:40:23.651 --> 00:40:26.261 I think is healthy, like, um, 00:40:26.751 --> 00:40:26.911 Joe: and... 00:40:26.911 --> 00:40:27.831 Yeah, it's really annoying. 00:40:29.441 --> 00:40:30.361 I'm not happy for you. 00:40:31.441 --> 00:40:35.941 Ali's like, oh, he's like, oh, I've got a feeling, I've got a feeling, 00:40:35.941 --> 00:40:38.801 I'm just gonna download this dating app, I'm gonna swipe once, oh, 00:40:39.011 --> 00:40:40.741 I'm gonna meet the perfect guy. 00:40:41.101 --> 00:40:42.681 Oh my god, before we've even met. 00:40:42.911 --> 00:40:47.951 This is perfect . And then, oh, now we've met, oh, everything's still perfect 00:40:47.951 --> 00:40:49.901 and cut to like over two months later. 00:40:49.901 --> 00:40:51.131 Yeah, everything's still perfect. 00:40:51.136 --> 00:40:55.871 I'm like, oh man, fuck you Ali like, just like, where did this come from? 00:40:55.871 --> 00:40:57.401 She's done less therapy than me. 00:40:57.401 --> 00:40:57.881 Clearly. 00:40:57.886 --> 00:40:59.111 This is, this is fair. 00:40:59.111 --> 00:41:00.881 Everything she's saying is like, it's like. 00:41:01.696 --> 00:41:04.716 She's just graduating uni and I'm in primary school from 00:41:04.716 --> 00:41:06.366 like therapy understanding. 00:41:07.126 --> 00:41:10.146 And now she's like having a happy relationship and I'm 00:41:10.146 --> 00:41:11.306 in no way happy for her. 00:41:12.446 --> 00:41:12.846 The competition. 00:41:12.866 --> 00:41:14.296 I'm getting a resentment on Ali just 00:41:15.876 --> 00:41:16.184 Sam: for being happy. 00:41:16.184 --> 00:41:16.466 It's so fair. 00:41:16.466 --> 00:41:17.246 I feel it too. 00:41:17.606 --> 00:41:19.906 No, the, I think that's exactly right. 00:41:19.906 --> 00:41:24.436 We can easily get caught up in the battle to be more evolved and more mature and 00:41:24.436 --> 00:41:26.516 like, Oh, my psychotherapy is going great. 00:41:26.526 --> 00:41:27.236 How about yours? 00:41:27.236 --> 00:41:28.216 Mine's 00:41:28.571 --> 00:41:31.691 Ali: Yeah, well, I mean, it's certainly not a competition and like, I cannot, I, 00:41:31.751 --> 00:41:36.291 I mean, for all of, it is so much, like, as you said before, it is such hard work. 00:41:37.071 --> 00:41:42.881 I wouldn't wish it on anybody, like the, the, the, the amount of pain and 00:41:42.881 --> 00:41:46.221 reliving trauma and talking about all of that and how hard that has been. 00:41:46.221 --> 00:41:46.941 I wouldn't wish that on 00:41:46.951 --> 00:41:47.351 Joe: anyone. 00:41:47.361 --> 00:41:47.471 Yeah. 00:41:47.471 --> 00:41:50.791 But you got yourself into the place where you potentially could be at the 00:41:50.811 --> 00:41:52.311 start of quite a good relationship. 00:41:52.351 --> 00:41:52.921 Yeah, it's possible. 00:41:53.171 --> 00:41:56.611 Whereas I'm still stumbling around no closer. 00:41:56.731 --> 00:41:57.131 I don't know. 00:41:57.181 --> 00:41:57.331 I, 00:41:57.431 --> 00:41:58.151 Sam: I don't agree. 00:41:58.376 --> 00:42:00.346 I think it's just very hard to see the progress. 00:42:00.346 --> 00:42:01.946 You've got to remind yourself. 00:42:01.956 --> 00:42:02.356 That's, that's 00:42:02.616 --> 00:42:05.196 Ali: when I, I mean, I get bogged down with that too sometimes where I 00:42:05.196 --> 00:42:06.456 feel like I'm not, I'm floundering. 00:42:06.456 --> 00:42:09.506 I'm not doing all the things that I said or wanted to do because I've always 00:42:09.506 --> 00:42:11.376 had I keep falling short of my ideals. 00:42:11.376 --> 00:42:12.036 What's happening? 00:42:12.046 --> 00:42:15.526 Unrealistic expectations of myself without having any understanding of my 00:42:15.536 --> 00:42:20.941 own capacity or what even A normal, like anybody's capacity, but no, I can do that. 00:42:20.941 --> 00:42:22.411 I can, you know, I let 00:42:22.411 --> 00:42:23.611 Sam: alone such cripples as 00:42:23.611 --> 00:42:23.871 Ali: us. 00:42:23.871 --> 00:42:24.711 Yeah, exactly. 00:42:24.921 --> 00:42:25.481 Exactly. 00:42:25.491 --> 00:42:28.831 And with all the limitations and, and just, and being, and being very 00:42:28.831 --> 00:42:31.961 human, I just have always had these unrealistic expectations of myself. 00:42:32.361 --> 00:42:35.881 And so I always, you know, feel like I'm falling short and that's 00:42:35.881 --> 00:42:39.631 the thing that my therapist always comes back to is this like, yeah, but 00:42:39.631 --> 00:42:44.511 look at you a month ago, six months ago, a year ago, and it is, it is. 00:42:44.876 --> 00:42:45.896 It's huge, that change. 00:42:45.906 --> 00:42:47.036 Last week, goddammit. 00:42:47.036 --> 00:42:50.916 Yeah, like there is changes every week, like really positive things, really small 00:42:50.936 --> 00:42:55.776 things, but it's all in, and it's not linear, but it's in the right direction. 00:42:55.786 --> 00:42:57.926 And I was actually talking with a friend about this the other day, 00:42:58.146 --> 00:42:59.826 you know, you'd had a setback and. 00:43:00.586 --> 00:43:03.776 You know, we, yeah, it was like, recovery is not linear. 00:43:03.786 --> 00:43:09.606 You are going to have setbacks, but you, it's still, it's still on 00:43:09.606 --> 00:43:10.766 the scale of things moving in the 00:43:10.766 --> 00:43:11.286 Sam: right direction. 00:43:11.286 --> 00:43:13.626 It's so easy to lose hope, even with a 00:43:13.636 --> 00:43:14.316 Ali: small setback. 00:43:14.316 --> 00:43:14.666 Yeah. 00:43:14.696 --> 00:43:18.006 You could be doing 99 percent of the things you need to be doing and it's 00:43:18.026 --> 00:43:19.896 completely human to mess up one of them. 00:43:20.501 --> 00:43:23.201 and you feel like, oh my God, it's, you know, I'm gonna throw 00:43:23.201 --> 00:43:24.161 the baby out with the bath water. 00:43:24.161 --> 00:43:27.191 But it's not, yeah, it's, it's like, okay, the real progress is 00:43:27.191 --> 00:43:30.581 getting to the point of understanding and accepting this is where I am. 00:43:30.881 --> 00:43:32.411 I just need to just move forward. 00:43:32.411 --> 00:43:33.521 This is where I am the next day. 00:43:33.671 --> 00:43:36.041 Ah, and that's exactly how, yeah. 00:43:36.331 --> 00:43:39.841 I mean, it CA lot of around the eating disorder stuff, it comes back. 00:43:39.901 --> 00:43:42.181 It's that same mentality and that same thinking. 00:43:42.186 --> 00:43:42.406 It's just. 00:43:43.151 --> 00:43:46.041 You know, this is the next meal and it doesn't matter what's happened 00:43:46.141 --> 00:43:49.681 earlier in the day or yesterday or last week or last year, you have to 00:43:49.761 --> 00:43:51.971 play each shot, each shot as it comes. 00:43:51.971 --> 00:43:54.181 And it really comes down to each meal you have. 00:43:54.211 --> 00:43:59.021 It's a conscious, it's very, it takes up a lot of bandwidth and it's very 00:43:59.021 --> 00:44:01.101 much, you know, a huge thing that, yeah. 00:44:01.101 --> 00:44:05.361 And it, it's so, it's like watching, like, you know, particularly with 00:44:05.361 --> 00:44:06.901 eating disorders and how that mirrors. 00:44:06.986 --> 00:44:10.706 It's the behaviours, all those, that thought pattern of all that other 00:44:10.706 --> 00:44:12.176 sort of self destructive behaviour. 00:44:12.186 --> 00:44:15.806 It's very much, it's yeah, it's a mirror of it. 00:44:16.076 --> 00:44:19.406 Sam: And don't you think when you first get, start to get that sense of 00:44:19.406 --> 00:44:24.196 an insight into how it's all connected and how it's actually, oh, it's the 00:44:24.196 --> 00:44:30.376 same organic process taking place with these different dysfunctions, at first. 00:44:30.946 --> 00:44:34.506 It's overwhelming and you go, Oh no, no, no, no, it's, it's all, Oh 00:44:34.506 --> 00:44:36.296 no, it's all tied too much together. 00:44:36.296 --> 00:44:38.246 It's, it's inextricable, um, trapped. 00:44:38.646 --> 00:44:42.416 So, at first, when you start to get an insight into your condition, your 00:44:42.416 --> 00:44:44.846 behaviour, your suffering, and you know, the, the things you're perpetuating 00:44:44.846 --> 00:44:49.136 on yourself, it can, because of that greater insight, feel inescapable. 00:44:50.236 --> 00:44:54.386 I think my theory, personal theory there is, it's very... 00:44:55.016 --> 00:44:58.876 It's scary at first when you're letting go of the fantasies and 00:44:58.876 --> 00:45:01.466 letting go of the fantasies that, well, it leaves you feeling vulnerable. 00:45:01.476 --> 00:45:04.596 The fantasies are protecting you, but it's fantasies that 00:45:04.596 --> 00:45:06.246 get in the way of forgiveness. 00:45:06.256 --> 00:45:09.056 It's fantasies that keep you in resentments because resentments 00:45:09.056 --> 00:45:10.246 are a form of fantasy. 00:45:10.676 --> 00:45:14.556 When I understood that, like, you know, from, um, some reading 00:45:14.556 --> 00:45:19.646 I did on Lakan, the subject is entertaining all these fantasies. 00:45:20.636 --> 00:45:24.526 And, uh, they're negative and they're positive, but they're all useless alike. 00:45:24.936 --> 00:45:28.526 So whether you've got this, you know, this person's demonic, this 00:45:28.526 --> 00:45:31.676 person's saintly, or you're demonic or saintly, or you're an exalted being 00:45:31.676 --> 00:45:35.866 or a lowly being, all of it's fantasy and like the desire to continually 00:45:35.866 --> 00:45:40.016 retreating into fantasy, we have to just keep pulling ourselves away from 00:45:40.166 --> 00:45:40.256 Joe: it. 00:45:40.916 --> 00:45:45.738 And I had a breakup 18 months ago and have gone, you know, I've just been trapped. 00:45:45.948 --> 00:45:46.248 Yeah. 00:45:46.958 --> 00:45:52.388 What in, in, in fantasies, uh, replaying things like Emmett said, 00:45:52.388 --> 00:45:55.398 just over and over and Revivifying. 00:45:55.408 --> 00:45:59.688 There's no more revivifying to do on with that person. 00:45:59.758 --> 00:46:03.938 You know, I did, I did a six month relationship and 18 months of 00:46:03.938 --> 00:46:10.428 revivifying, you know, but, but clearly, clearly there's more that that last 00:46:10.428 --> 00:46:14.738 relationship came to represent every single relationship previous to that. 00:46:15.338 --> 00:46:20.018 And all encapsulated in this one person who, you know, never asked for that. 00:46:20.648 --> 00:46:25.648 Um, but it's, it's, that's what I mean about dragging 00:46:25.648 --> 00:46:26.938 myself into the present moment. 00:46:26.978 --> 00:46:27.438 Yes. 00:46:27.628 --> 00:46:31.898 But, but it's a perfect example because whether it's my therapist or 00:46:31.898 --> 00:46:36.378 my friends, God knows I never need to talk about that person again. 00:46:36.918 --> 00:46:38.418 It's not like there's some unspoken... 00:46:39.038 --> 00:46:41.608 It's not like there's something that needs to be brought out into the light, 00:46:41.918 --> 00:46:42.988 it's all been brought out into the light. 00:46:42.988 --> 00:46:43.428 The answer 00:46:43.428 --> 00:46:44.318 Sam: doesn't lie there. 00:46:44.508 --> 00:46:45.428 Over and over again. 00:46:45.428 --> 00:46:46.048 The answer doesn't lie there. 00:46:46.048 --> 00:46:50.388 Joe: The series of events that happened across six months have been dealt 00:46:50.388 --> 00:46:54.488 with thoroughly in therapy and dealt with thoroughly with my friends. 00:46:55.058 --> 00:46:57.548 So if these images keep coming back to me. 00:46:58.503 --> 00:47:03.303 That's, that's where it's, PTSD, but that's at the point where I 00:47:03.303 --> 00:47:05.143 think it just needs to be neglected. 00:47:05.313 --> 00:47:06.043 Well, no, that's right. 00:47:06.043 --> 00:47:06.583 You know what I mean? 00:47:06.583 --> 00:47:08.993 Rather than, than constantly brought up again. 00:47:09.023 --> 00:47:09.233 Well 00:47:09.233 --> 00:47:13.893 Sam: to be, so to be full circle back to what Ali was getting at, I think 00:47:13.893 --> 00:47:18.183 what you're getting at early, tell me if I'm wrong or right, um, sometimes 00:47:18.183 --> 00:47:19.663 we're not in the position yet. 00:47:20.563 --> 00:47:24.303 for it to be neglected organically and for it to just organically decay. 00:47:24.583 --> 00:47:29.283 And so when we neglect something, what I think what Emmett's getting at is that we 00:47:29.283 --> 00:47:31.993 refuse to water that plant of resentment. 00:47:32.443 --> 00:47:35.333 And we refuse to give it sunlight and nutrient. 00:47:35.403 --> 00:47:38.593 And we recognize that we've been feeding it and we make a 00:47:38.593 --> 00:47:40.313 commitment to stop doing that. 00:47:40.353 --> 00:47:42.903 And when we catch ourselves doing it, okay, I'm just going to stop. 00:47:43.483 --> 00:47:44.783 Joe: But also, what's the lesson? 00:47:44.813 --> 00:47:46.223 And the lesson is... 00:47:46.453 --> 00:47:50.863 Yes, no more with making a woman my higher power. 00:47:51.053 --> 00:47:51.703 Yes, of course. 00:47:51.713 --> 00:47:52.683 No more with that. 00:47:52.693 --> 00:47:53.093 Yes. 00:47:53.263 --> 00:47:56.763 Like, and it, maybe I needed to think about it so much to finally 00:47:56.763 --> 00:48:02.603 come to this, this final conclusion of like, all right, like, okay, 00:48:02.603 --> 00:48:04.463 that's not where my safety lies. 00:48:04.533 --> 00:48:04.793 No. 00:48:05.453 --> 00:48:09.453 It never has been, and it never will be. 00:48:09.873 --> 00:48:12.063 And there is no safety anyway, cause I'm going to die, 00:48:12.073 --> 00:48:12.393 Sam: so. 00:48:12.443 --> 00:48:12.883 That's right. 00:48:13.388 --> 00:48:14.398 Renounced safety. 00:48:16.368 --> 00:48:18.468 It's a tough thing to say to people, man, isn't it? 00:48:20.568 --> 00:48:21.718 Joe: Renounced security. 00:48:21.948 --> 00:48:24.378 Sure, but then the other part which I didn't have until I read Emmett's 00:48:24.428 --> 00:48:28.958 book is the positive thinking, which is so corny and American and 00:48:28.958 --> 00:48:31.108 Instagram that I hate it on one level. 00:48:31.918 --> 00:48:34.338 He's almost talking about manifesting, actually. 00:48:35.568 --> 00:48:42.058 So he goes, but, for some reason, because it's a weird 1930s American text, 00:48:42.218 --> 00:48:43.438 Sam: It's slightly more palatable. 00:48:43.468 --> 00:48:44.018 It's more 00:48:44.388 --> 00:48:49.218 Joe: palatable to be like, okay, so Jesus Christ talked about the secret 00:48:49.218 --> 00:48:53.878 place, and in my secret place, I need to put some positive thoughts. 00:48:53.878 --> 00:48:56.568 There's the old spiritual, which I think Tom Waits sang. 00:48:56.888 --> 00:48:59.378 As well, which is always keep a diamond in your mind. 00:48:59.868 --> 00:49:02.918 Yeah, so all I've done for the last couple of weeks is on a few 00:49:02.958 --> 00:49:04.628 things that come to mind a lot. 00:49:05.318 --> 00:49:10.268 I've had some very simple, positive images that I've been putting not in 00:49:10.268 --> 00:49:12.458 place of the, the train of thought. 00:49:12.458 --> 00:49:13.538 This happens to you guys too. 00:49:13.538 --> 00:49:15.398 I'm sure the train of thought is so fast. 00:49:15.403 --> 00:49:15.728 Yeah, yeah. 00:49:15.788 --> 00:49:16.718 It's an express. 00:49:16.778 --> 00:49:16.958 Yeah. 00:49:16.958 --> 00:49:18.698 So by the time you start the train of thought, it's like, ooh. 00:49:18.698 --> 00:49:19.658 There goes the train of thought. 00:49:19.658 --> 00:49:20.168 Here it goes. 00:49:20.168 --> 00:49:20.169 Yeah. 00:49:20.174 --> 00:49:22.678 At the end, I place the diamond. 00:49:22.888 --> 00:49:23.008 Yeah. 00:49:23.013 --> 00:49:27.748 At the end I do the simple image about that particular, and I only have mostly, 00:49:27.748 --> 00:49:30.718 I only have four or five trains of thought that are, that are habitual. 00:49:30.718 --> 00:49:30.898 Mm-Hmm. 00:49:31.318 --> 00:49:31.733 At the end, I just. 00:49:32.628 --> 00:49:37.738 A future ideal, a future ideal of a simple image where something 00:49:37.738 --> 00:49:39.628 positive is happening in that area. 00:49:39.668 --> 00:49:39.728 Great. 00:49:39.728 --> 00:49:44.858 Right, and it's had this fantastic effect, I feel, a lot better. 00:49:45.098 --> 00:49:45.228 The 00:49:45.228 --> 00:49:49.068 Sam: patient must devise their own medicine and repeatedly self administer. 00:49:49.473 --> 00:49:50.183 Who said that? 00:49:50.433 --> 00:49:50.983 I did. 00:49:50.993 --> 00:49:51.023 But 00:49:52.183 --> 00:49:53.923 Joe: he did the quotation voice! 00:49:54.043 --> 00:49:54.533 Well, it, 00:49:54.643 --> 00:49:56.713 Sam: I, well, because, it was a funny story. 00:49:56.953 --> 00:49:58.203 Joe: I thought you were going to say it was Freud or 00:49:58.203 --> 00:49:58.473 Sam: something. 00:49:58.653 --> 00:50:01.513 Well, no, it was my proudest Twitter moment, my only one really. 00:50:01.863 --> 00:50:05.543 I was reading a bunch of Lacan tweets and there was a great one from the 00:50:05.543 --> 00:50:07.263 Lacan Circle of Australia or whatever. 00:50:07.373 --> 00:50:11.843 And it was about, yeah, the therapist doesn't have the medicine. 00:50:12.803 --> 00:50:13.093 Alright? 00:50:13.483 --> 00:50:16.613 And don't be telling the patient that you have the medicine. 00:50:16.613 --> 00:50:19.093 Don't be letting on in any way you have the medicine, 00:50:19.103 --> 00:50:20.663 like they've got the medicine. 00:50:20.673 --> 00:50:22.233 It was basically the upshot of the quote. 00:50:22.263 --> 00:50:26.223 It was all lacan and wordy and unnecessarily obscure. 00:50:26.433 --> 00:50:27.453 So I replied. 00:50:28.593 --> 00:50:31.503 So you're saying the patient must devise their own medicine and repeatedly 00:50:31.503 --> 00:50:35.133 self-administer and they, they, they retweeted and I was like, yes, 00:50:35.178 --> 00:50:35.398 Joe: yes. 00:50:35.823 --> 00:50:37.233 Retweet from the Australian Macan 00:50:37.238 --> 00:50:37.773 Sam: Society. 00:50:37.778 --> 00:50:37.838 Yeah. 00:50:38.103 --> 00:50:38.163 Yeah. 00:50:38.163 --> 00:50:41.493 It was like, oh, a bunch of psych nerds, psychology nerds. 00:50:41.493 --> 00:50:44.073 Like endorsed my statement like I'm a master now. 00:50:44.463 --> 00:50:48.123 Um, but what I took, but I think I did understand what it was getting at, and 00:50:48.123 --> 00:50:52.683 I've gone and read a bit more about it and I think I understand it that. 00:50:53.263 --> 00:50:55.973 Yeah, the therapist obviously does have expert knowledge and they are 00:50:55.973 --> 00:51:00.943 there as a kind of, you know, guide and a coach and, you know, as you've 00:51:00.943 --> 00:51:03.723 discussed, like a coaching relationship and they are pointing you back to 00:51:03.723 --> 00:51:06.743 positive things and building up your strategies and there's all the sorts, 00:51:06.853 --> 00:51:10.053 sort of specialities and skills they've got that they can bring to it. 00:51:10.573 --> 00:51:14.853 But at the end of the day, you found this little thing for yourself and you did it. 00:51:14.988 --> 00:51:15.268 And it worked. 00:51:15.268 --> 00:51:16.138 And you decided it worked. 00:51:16.358 --> 00:51:16.758 Oh, someone 00:51:17.738 --> 00:51:18.548 Joe: gave me the book. 00:51:18.638 --> 00:51:20.448 Sam: Okay, sure, but you had to decide to act on it. 00:51:20.448 --> 00:51:20.698 Yeah. 00:51:20.798 --> 00:51:23.178 And you put your own unique practice in place when you did it. 00:51:23.178 --> 00:51:26.468 Joe: Everything led up to me being wide open. 00:51:27.598 --> 00:51:29.798 To Jesus Christ's words. 00:51:30.368 --> 00:51:30.708 Sure. 00:51:32.448 --> 00:51:33.728 No, I love it. 00:51:34.468 --> 00:51:34.998 I love it. 00:51:35.008 --> 00:51:35.388 The honesty. 00:51:35.638 --> 00:51:40.348 Years of pseudo Buddhism and years of addiction recovery. 00:51:40.348 --> 00:51:41.218 You just needed some proper Jeebus. 00:51:41.588 --> 00:51:44.978 And the ground was being laid the whole time. 00:51:45.198 --> 00:51:46.645 Once you go Jeebus, you never go back. 00:51:46.645 --> 00:51:48.168 I picked up this book on the Sermon of the Mount. 00:51:48.438 --> 00:51:49.678 And it just went straight in. 00:51:49.898 --> 00:51:50.128 Yeah. 00:51:50.188 --> 00:51:51.198 Like no resistance. 00:51:51.208 --> 00:51:52.798 Man, this happens to people all the time. 00:51:52.858 --> 00:51:53.428 No resistance. 00:51:53.428 --> 00:51:56.908 It's just like, and now I've gone back through and I'm just highlighting and 00:51:56.908 --> 00:52:00.418 it's like half the books is highlighted because I'm like, Oh my God, these 00:52:00.418 --> 00:52:03.528 are my, and it's, and it's actually a lot like the quote we read out. 00:52:03.548 --> 00:52:05.968 It makes perfect sense. 00:52:06.028 --> 00:52:10.508 The stuff that doesn't make sense is the stuff with, with Jesus in the, in the 00:52:10.508 --> 00:52:14.678 words and all the, so I would never send those quotes to people much, but like. 00:52:15.453 --> 00:52:15.783 I don't know. 00:52:15.783 --> 00:52:18.603 I'm not gonna, I'm also not gonna go read the Bible, but, 00:52:18.693 --> 00:52:20.643 Sam: well, most of it's not worth reading, honestly. 00:52:20.643 --> 00:52:21.873 Joe: It had to be weird. 00:52:21.963 --> 00:52:23.193 And it had to be weird. 00:52:23.823 --> 00:52:24.873 But he says that too. 00:52:24.878 --> 00:52:26.283 He says, forget about the old. 00:52:26.288 --> 00:52:29.733 He does . He says, you know, but he says that Jesus says, forget 00:52:29.733 --> 00:52:33.003 about the Old Testament God, the old, there is no vengeful God. 00:52:33.003 --> 00:52:36.393 There is only be a loving That's, and the loving God is only right 00:52:36.393 --> 00:52:37.263 here in the present moment. 00:52:37.263 --> 00:52:37.683 He, yes. 00:52:37.688 --> 00:52:37.778 Yes. 00:52:37.783 --> 00:52:39.603 And he's always been here with you. 00:52:39.663 --> 00:52:42.003 That's why I keep, and you have to have a direct experience 00:52:42.003 --> 00:52:43.653 and you do not need a church. 00:52:43.713 --> 00:52:44.313 Mm-Hmm. 00:52:44.583 --> 00:52:48.483 . That's what's on offer, and that makes perfect sense to me. 00:52:48.833 --> 00:52:49.613 So he's a Quaker? 00:52:49.853 --> 00:52:50.543 Ali: Was he a Quaker? 00:52:50.833 --> 00:52:51.403 Uh, 00:52:51.403 --> 00:52:51.423 Sam: no. 00:52:51.433 --> 00:52:52.693 Emma, he sounds like a Quaker. 00:52:52.693 --> 00:52:53.543 He sounds like a Quaker. 00:52:54.053 --> 00:52:54.393 Ali: Well, he's 00:52:55.023 --> 00:52:55.653 Joe: not a Quaker. 00:52:55.693 --> 00:52:56.513 He's no church. 00:52:57.768 --> 00:53:01.008 All he mentions the Quakers, he mentions every church and says every church 00:53:03.818 --> 00:53:06.268 has it wrong, because Jesus did not preach a doctrine, is what he's saying. 00:53:06.958 --> 00:53:09.508 That's a bit of a rabbit hole, I think we should probably wrap 00:53:09.508 --> 00:53:10.588 it up, I've got a headache. 00:53:10.798 --> 00:53:11.778 It's a beautiful rabbit hole. 00:53:13.088 --> 00:53:19.808 Sam: Ali's DNA of Emmett, yes, he's a mystic and he's gone 00:53:19.808 --> 00:53:21.518 down his own rabbit hole, but... 00:53:21.948 --> 00:53:25.528 There will be a theological trace there somewhere to 00:53:25.768 --> 00:53:27.608 Joe: be happy to be a Quaker if that's 00:53:28.458 --> 00:53:29.188 Sam: all I want. 00:53:29.188 --> 00:53:31.628 It doesn't mean go be a Quaker, but like, it's just an interesting 00:53:31.638 --> 00:53:33.408 resonance with what they were saying. 00:53:33.418 --> 00:53:34.948 But, but, but, but, 00:53:34.948 --> 00:53:38.958 Joe: well, I guess what I'm saying is spiritually, which 00:53:38.958 --> 00:53:40.338 is very hard to talk about. 00:53:40.408 --> 00:53:40.818 Sure. 00:53:40.828 --> 00:53:43.658 Especially with a couple of, with an atheist and an agnostic. 00:53:44.468 --> 00:53:48.408 Spiritually it makes, this book makes perfect sense to me. 00:53:48.628 --> 00:53:53.158 It makes perfect sense of my phenomenological experience of 00:53:53.188 --> 00:53:58.868 spirituality as a direct present moment sense of being loved 00:53:58.888 --> 00:54:00.918 and supported by something. 00:54:01.863 --> 00:54:04.463 And he would say that's all Jesus was describing. 00:54:04.823 --> 00:54:07.063 However, it goes further. 00:54:07.263 --> 00:54:11.003 You have to get yourself right in the secret place, which is your consciousness. 00:54:11.003 --> 00:54:11.093 You 00:54:11.723 --> 00:54:12.583 Sam: have to look after your 00:54:12.583 --> 00:54:13.033 Joe: consciousness. 00:54:13.113 --> 00:54:16.533 It's not enough for me to sit here and say nice things to you, Sam, 00:54:16.533 --> 00:54:18.673 and you, Ali, and secretly hate you. 00:54:19.993 --> 00:54:23.033 I have to have only positive thoughts about you. 00:54:23.533 --> 00:54:25.293 Or I have to associate with someone else. 00:54:25.303 --> 00:54:26.403 But I can't do both. 00:54:26.623 --> 00:54:28.873 I can't secretly hate you both. 00:54:29.998 --> 00:54:33.508 And the illusion is that I'm getting away with those nasty thoughts. 00:54:33.848 --> 00:54:39.078 What Emmet's saying is, no, no, you pay a price for all 00:54:39.078 --> 00:54:39.768 Sam: your horrible thoughts. 00:54:40.358 --> 00:54:43.668 And that's why Jesus was, he was on about radical forgiveness. 00:54:43.668 --> 00:54:47.458 I mean, like leaving aside the historical issue existing or not, it doesn't matter. 00:54:47.698 --> 00:54:48.668 The teachings are there. 00:54:49.168 --> 00:54:51.828 Radical forgiveness, you know, turning the other cheek. 00:54:52.778 --> 00:54:58.508 Oh, and like, that is this, the words are so cliched, but like, I mean, literally. 00:54:59.638 --> 00:55:04.228 In the theology, as I understand it, it's like this person is, you 00:55:04.228 --> 00:55:08.058 know, horribly oppressed by the Roman Empire and, you know, so all these 00:55:08.058 --> 00:55:09.658 other people and it was a tough time. 00:55:10.638 --> 00:55:16.378 And they're literally going to nail him to a cross and he's going 00:55:16.378 --> 00:55:17.628 to go, yep, no, it's all good. 00:55:18.698 --> 00:55:22.378 You do what you got to do, man, you know, like that's how far 00:55:22.378 --> 00:55:23.118 they're going to go with it. 00:55:23.118 --> 00:55:23.618 Yeah. 00:55:23.698 --> 00:55:26.318 And it's like, that's a level of forgiveness. 00:55:27.198 --> 00:55:30.288 None of us here could even begin to contemplate, or perhaps you 00:55:30.288 --> 00:55:31.718 can begin to contemplate it. 00:55:31.968 --> 00:55:32.438 Yeah. 00:55:32.568 --> 00:55:37.658 But I think what's so powerful about that, it's like victory in death. 00:55:37.708 --> 00:55:40.768 It was how one theologian explained it to me. 00:55:40.788 --> 00:55:41.298 But to me, 00:55:41.298 --> 00:55:44.028 Joe: yeah, but the Jesus story makes it insane. 00:55:44.028 --> 00:55:44.238 It's a complete surrender. 00:55:44.238 --> 00:55:44.958 It is. 00:55:44.998 --> 00:55:47.738 It's insane unless you've experienced some Christ consciousness. 00:55:47.918 --> 00:55:48.228 Well, 00:55:48.228 --> 00:55:48.718 Sam: no, no, no, no. 00:55:48.718 --> 00:55:50.918 Zizek, Zizek would say... 00:55:50.973 --> 00:55:54.493 No, no, no, all of this makes perfect sense from an atheist 00:55:54.503 --> 00:55:56.253 psychological point of view. 00:55:58.823 --> 00:56:01.093 Well, I keep pointing you back to Zizek and Lacan. 00:56:01.163 --> 00:56:01.223 But 00:56:01.223 --> 00:56:02.133 Joe: I'm understanding spirituality. 00:56:02.143 --> 00:56:02.353 And 00:56:02.353 --> 00:56:04.843 Sam: Freud, Freud came out of a biblical tradition 00:56:04.853 --> 00:56:05.117 Joe: in his own way. 00:56:05.117 --> 00:56:08.833 But I'm understanding spirituality experientially in my whole... 00:56:09.028 --> 00:56:14.588 Being, of course, so that I can understand suddenly what Jesus is saying because 00:56:14.588 --> 00:56:16.628 I'm having an experience with it. 00:56:16.798 --> 00:56:17.148 Was he? 00:56:17.148 --> 00:56:17.368 No, he wasn't. 00:56:17.698 --> 00:56:20.668 I wouldn't try to intellectualize it and explain it. 00:56:20.688 --> 00:56:22.318 Well, no, we're trying to do that right now. 00:56:22.318 --> 00:56:24.258 Well, I'm trying to avoid doing that. 00:56:24.278 --> 00:56:27.648 What I'm saying is I picked up this weird book from the 30s and it all went 00:56:27.648 --> 00:56:33.938 straight in and in under two weeks, my thinking has become vastly less toxic. 00:56:35.593 --> 00:56:36.983 Sam: Makes sense, makes sense. 00:56:37.023 --> 00:56:37.363 So, 00:56:38.443 --> 00:56:40.643 Joe: if that leads me down the path to become a Christian, I 00:56:40.653 --> 00:56:45.863 actually don't care, because all I want is to not be in so much pain. 00:56:46.623 --> 00:56:47.173 And fear. 00:56:47.363 --> 00:56:49.353 Fear and pain be gone, you know? 00:56:50.503 --> 00:56:54.583 And maybe Jesus was my homie the whole time and I was trying to find 00:56:54.583 --> 00:56:57.243 it with sexual partners, you know? 00:56:57.323 --> 00:56:57.773 Sure. 00:56:58.118 --> 00:57:02.458 Sam: Well, no, again, there's a counterpart to that, uh, in, I 00:57:02.458 --> 00:57:03.758 can't give you chapter and verse. 00:57:04.238 --> 00:57:04.988 You know, the, the 00:57:04.988 --> 00:57:05.718 Joe: woman at the well. 00:57:06.398 --> 00:57:07.018 I never met her. 00:57:07.058 --> 00:57:09.628 I know about the girl by the whirlpool looking for the new fool. 00:57:09.688 --> 00:57:10.778 Sam: Well, it's a bit like that. 00:57:10.818 --> 00:57:11.228 All right. 00:57:11.268 --> 00:57:14.218 So Jesus is down at the, Jesus is down at the well and there's 00:57:14.218 --> 00:57:18.478 a woman there and she's had seven husbands or whatever it says. 00:57:18.888 --> 00:57:22.858 And it, there's details that escape me, but the overall thing is. 00:57:23.568 --> 00:57:26.518 He's not looking at her the way that other people have looked at 00:57:26.518 --> 00:57:30.178 her and like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, you're a tramp or whatever, or 00:57:30.338 --> 00:57:33.228 geez, you must be bad at marriage or, you know, did you murder them all? 00:57:33.228 --> 00:57:35.428 Or the many judgments people might have in that situation. 00:57:35.828 --> 00:57:37.328 Jesus is just like, no, I see you. 00:57:38.298 --> 00:57:38.828 I dig it. 00:57:39.088 --> 00:57:40.698 You've been to some places. 00:57:40.898 --> 00:57:41.888 You've been through a lot. 00:57:43.228 --> 00:57:44.568 You're ready for the next thing. 00:57:45.318 --> 00:57:48.538 You didn't find it there in marriage, but you will find it. 00:57:49.168 --> 00:57:50.608 And like, she's like, yeah, what do you know? 00:57:51.948 --> 00:57:53.068 I'm the woman at the well. 00:57:53.268 --> 00:57:53.948 Yes, man. 00:57:53.958 --> 00:57:54.368 That's what I'm trying to 00:57:54.378 --> 00:57:54.908 Joe: say. 00:57:55.198 --> 00:57:55.898 We've got an episode 00:57:55.968 --> 00:57:56.238 Sam: title. 00:57:56.238 --> 00:57:56.708 Yeah. 00:57:56.858 --> 00:57:57.728 She's thirsty. 00:57:57.908 --> 00:57:59.388 She's going to the well to drink. 00:57:59.618 --> 00:58:00.098 But Jesus is 00:58:00.098 --> 00:58:00.548 Ali: my homie. 00:58:00.558 --> 00:58:01.098 I like that. 00:58:01.098 --> 00:58:01.628 You could have that issue. 00:58:02.498 --> 00:58:02.798 Joe: No. 00:58:02.798 --> 00:58:04.578 I'm the, Joe is the woman at the well. 00:58:04.798 --> 00:58:05.188 Yes. 00:58:05.228 --> 00:58:06.118 Sam: Episode title. 00:58:06.128 --> 00:58:06.318 No. 00:58:06.348 --> 00:58:08.078 You're the woman who had seven husbands. 00:58:08.258 --> 00:58:10.948 And she, and you know, she loved all of that, you know, 00:58:11.198 --> 00:58:12.088 there's all these layers to it. 00:58:12.128 --> 00:58:15.978 I've heard this story pulled apart in many different ways, like the, the 00:58:15.978 --> 00:58:20.138 symbolic, the symbolism, the theology of it, the psychoanalytics of it. 00:58:20.456 --> 00:58:23.726 there's a reason Zizek takes the book of Romans, St. 00:58:23.726 --> 00:58:28.076 Paul's stuff quite seriously, because it's not just like an intellectualization, 00:58:28.086 --> 00:58:32.176 like, you know, from what I understand of his encounter with it, you know, 00:58:32.186 --> 00:58:35.391 he's He just grew up in a Christian country like so many of us did. 00:58:35.421 --> 00:58:37.471 I mean, just in the Soviet Union, but you know what I mean. 00:58:38.371 --> 00:58:40.661 And then he became interested in psychoanalysis. 00:58:41.241 --> 00:58:44.491 And then, you know, I started reading Hegel and Freud and Marx 00:58:44.491 --> 00:58:47.051 and realizing, oh, there's so much psychology in all this stuff. 00:58:48.501 --> 00:58:52.581 You know, reading Lacan and then eventually becoming the 00:58:52.631 --> 00:58:54.451 towering figure he is today. 00:58:54.841 --> 00:58:58.451 But at the heart of an awful lot of what he's on about is like what 00:58:58.461 --> 00:59:00.521 he calls atheist Christianity. 00:59:00.521 --> 00:59:01.701 Like he's embraced it. 00:59:01.711 --> 00:59:03.481 Like he's like, no, no, this is legit. 00:59:05.221 --> 00:59:10.281 He can't do the God thing, but he's like, no, no, this is, this teaching 00:59:10.281 --> 00:59:14.831 makes sense to me psychologically and intellectually, but it also resonates 00:59:14.851 --> 00:59:18.466 with his experience His own suffering. 00:59:18.796 --> 00:59:20.016 So, like, phenomenologically, like, it works. 00:59:20.056 --> 00:59:20.226 Well, 00:59:20.226 --> 00:59:24.976 Joe: I would say, I already had a God, and now I've come to Jesus. 00:59:25.316 --> 00:59:25.716 Yeah. 00:59:25.726 --> 00:59:28.846 But, I don't think I'm going to decide that Jesus is the only way to God. 00:59:29.076 --> 00:59:29.486 No, no. 00:59:29.556 --> 00:59:31.236 Because I already had God before I met Jesus. 00:59:31.266 --> 00:59:31.826 Well, that's right. 00:59:31.826 --> 00:59:32.836 You don't have to do that. 00:59:32.886 --> 00:59:34.036 But, but, but... 00:59:35.381 --> 00:59:40.261 In the very simple sense of being a spiritual seeker, and I would say in my 00:59:40.261 --> 00:59:46.031 experience in the last few years, a finder of things, spiritually, is that I just 00:59:46.031 --> 00:59:51.411 want the fear and pain to stop, you know, and probably that's why I drank as well, 00:59:52.521 --> 00:59:53.891 and it kind of works while you're drunk. 00:59:55.621 --> 00:59:56.131 Oh, sure. 00:59:56.161 --> 00:59:59.161 If nothing else doesn't, it comes back twice as bad in the morning. 00:59:59.166 --> 00:59:59.966 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:00:00.146 --> 01:00:01.246 . But, um, yeah. 01:00:01.381 --> 01:00:02.851 Anyway, we've gone very deep on this. 01:00:02.851 --> 01:00:03.241 Well, 01:00:03.646 --> 01:00:03.806 Sam: absolutely. 01:00:03.811 --> 01:00:06.241 I knew, I knew where I knew it would go deep. 01:00:06.811 --> 01:00:07.441 . Yeah. 01:00:07.441 --> 01:00:07.442 Yeah. 01:00:08.401 --> 01:00:08.551 Um, I 01:00:08.551 --> 01:00:09.361 Joe: endorsed that one. 01:00:09.391 --> 01:00:09.751 Yeah. 01:00:10.511 --> 01:00:11.741 Anyway, I think we should wrap it up. 01:00:11.801 --> 01:00:12.431 Sam: Mm. 01:00:12.491 --> 01:00:14.531 Thank you Emmett Fox. 01:00:14.911 --> 01:00:15.451 Um, 01:00:15.451 --> 01:00:16.291 Joe: grievances 01:00:16.921 --> 01:00:17.311 Sam: be gone. 01:00:17.461 --> 01:00:17.551 Yeah. 01:00:17.551 --> 01:00:18.451 They're bad for you. 01:00:18.661 --> 01:00:21.241 So whether that guy's a raving loony or a wise man well. 01:00:22.576 --> 01:00:25.576 A true mystic would say it's both mate, um, 01:00:26.806 --> 01:00:28.536 Joe: yeah, but there's something in it. 01:00:28.976 --> 01:00:29.446 Yeah. 01:00:30.446 --> 01:00:30.766 Sam: Yeah. 01:00:30.926 --> 01:00:31.986 So, oh, that's right. 01:00:32.866 --> 01:00:34.146 I'm going to do one last thing. 01:00:35.776 --> 01:00:40.086 The bad news, you know, your parents, the good news, um, they messed up. 01:00:41.166 --> 01:00:42.976 Probably didn't mess up because they were evil. 01:00:43.406 --> 01:00:47.156 Probably messed up because of their nature and their circumstance 01:00:47.156 --> 01:00:49.816 and the things they didn't know and the experiences they'd had. 01:00:51.206 --> 01:00:54.716 Which you're not aware of as a child, and then years later you find out, Oh 01:00:54.716 --> 01:00:58.936 gee, this dreadful thing happened to my mum, and you know, Or you know, Dad 01:00:58.936 --> 01:01:02.236 had pretty bad depression really, for a lot of his twenties and thirties. 01:01:03.776 --> 01:01:08.296 Okay, well you know what, once you let go of that fantasy that, No, they weren't 01:01:08.296 --> 01:01:12.926 bad after all, it was me, it was me, And I'm going to stop defending them, 01:01:12.926 --> 01:01:14.406 I'm going to stop defending myself. 01:01:14.526 --> 01:01:16.996 Done with all this defending, you know. 01:01:17.716 --> 01:01:19.556 Let's just, let's just concede. 01:01:19.881 --> 01:01:21.511 Let's just concede everything. 01:01:21.571 --> 01:01:21.961 Yes. 01:01:22.021 --> 01:01:22.701 It's all true. 01:01:23.311 --> 01:01:24.731 And you know what? 01:01:24.781 --> 01:01:26.691 Oh man, it's such bad news. 01:01:26.801 --> 01:01:28.001 They weren't perfect after all. 01:01:28.061 --> 01:01:29.201 Oh, you didn't get looked after. 01:01:29.241 --> 01:01:30.511 Oh, that's not bad news. 01:01:30.511 --> 01:01:31.421 You knew that anyway. 01:01:31.831 --> 01:01:34.591 You know, Winnicott, the catastrophe you fear has already occurred. 01:01:34.611 --> 01:01:37.591 The thing you're trying to prevent and keep yourself safe from, you've 01:01:37.591 --> 01:01:38.991 been living with it this whole time. 01:01:39.001 --> 01:01:41.121 You don't need to keep yourself safe from it. 01:01:41.121 --> 01:01:41.951 You've been in it. 01:01:42.191 --> 01:01:43.361 Like you can take it. 01:01:44.516 --> 01:01:47.596 That's what I'm telling you, and then like the good news, once you realise how flawed 01:01:47.606 --> 01:01:52.856 they were for reasons that they didn't have full control over, okay, same for me. 01:01:53.496 --> 01:01:56.436 And now the door can swing both ways and you go, I'm not better 01:01:56.436 --> 01:01:58.546 than they are, but we all have to... 01:01:59.786 --> 01:02:01.766 We all have to take responsibility. 01:02:01.766 --> 01:02:03.536 We all have to do better if we can. 01:02:03.536 --> 01:02:04.946 We all must do what we can. 01:02:05.066 --> 01:02:05.156 Yeah. 01:02:05.156 --> 01:02:05.426 You know? 01:02:05.426 --> 01:02:08.096 And then once you get there, it's like, oh man, it's a bit easier. 01:02:08.996 --> 01:02:09.236 Joe: Yeah. 01:02:09.241 --> 01:02:11.606 I'm not fucking my kids up with drugs and alcohol. 01:02:11.666 --> 01:02:11.786 Yeah. 01:02:11.786 --> 01:02:15.896 I'm fucking my kids up by being so distracted by my phone and I see it. 01:02:16.196 --> 01:02:16.346 Yeah. 01:02:16.346 --> 01:02:18.626 Every day I am with them and I just watch it happen. 01:02:18.686 --> 01:02:21.986 Maybe like my parents watched it happen with booze and, and drugs. 01:02:21.986 --> 01:02:22.256 I don't know. 01:02:23.061 --> 01:02:23.341 I can't. 01:02:23.666 --> 01:02:28.056 I feel like I can't stop it and I just watch it unfold 01:02:28.566 --> 01:02:29.936 and I feel like I'm balanced. 01:02:29.936 --> 01:02:33.296 It's probably better than what I lived through and they're certainly 01:02:33.296 --> 01:02:34.756 not in a house full of drama. 01:02:34.866 --> 01:02:40.166 They're really not, but I'm so disconnected, so, so disconnected. 01:02:40.866 --> 01:02:44.156 So it's like, I don't know, I, you know, I've only got a couple of 01:02:44.156 --> 01:02:48.606 years left to try and write that a bit, but I'm not even trying it. 01:02:48.646 --> 01:02:49.066 Well, don't, 01:02:49.076 --> 01:02:50.216 Sam: well, no, well don't try. 01:02:50.666 --> 01:02:53.936 You know, it's like, Ali, when you were talking about Relationships and 01:02:53.936 --> 01:02:59.226 like, um, the, you know, the evolution and getting, uh, getting another crack 01:02:59.226 --> 01:03:02.996 at it and going, all right, this is how we're going to do it this time. 01:03:03.006 --> 01:03:07.036 We're going to be quite conscious and I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:03:08.066 --> 01:03:09.856 The ideals and the principles are really good. 01:03:09.946 --> 01:03:11.496 Have those there for sure. 01:03:12.086 --> 01:03:13.366 But we're always going to fall short. 01:03:13.396 --> 01:03:14.206 Yeah, always. 01:03:14.286 --> 01:03:19.786 And, but then like, it's like, oh, but it's so easy that the more we 01:03:19.786 --> 01:03:21.476 catch ourselves in the fantasy. 01:03:21.991 --> 01:03:25.021 Projecting onto the other good things, bad things, you know, making 01:03:25.021 --> 01:03:28.541 it their fault, making it their responsibility or, or making it all 01:03:28.541 --> 01:03:31.691 our responsibility, all those engaging in all those illusions and fantasies. 01:03:32.611 --> 01:03:34.361 We can just keep catching ourselves doing that. 01:03:34.591 --> 01:03:36.911 And I was like, it must be so weird. 01:03:37.791 --> 01:03:40.531 Sitting down with like a relatively new person and just going, okay, 01:03:40.581 --> 01:03:44.371 let's just try and be in the present here and like, see, let me try and 01:03:44.371 --> 01:03:47.061 listen and understand them, but not. 01:03:48.461 --> 01:03:51.731 Not, not go too far on the understanding, you know, and 01:03:51.871 --> 01:03:55.151 Ali: just like as they are in that moment, as they 01:03:55.151 --> 01:03:58.671 Sam: are in that moment, because it's not, it's not the rest of everything, is it? 01:03:58.691 --> 01:03:58.941 No, 01:03:59.951 --> 01:04:00.051 Ali: it's not. 01:04:00.051 --> 01:04:02.941 You can only take them yet as they are in that moment. 01:04:02.991 --> 01:04:05.011 And it's actually, it's, it's a really lovely feeling. 01:04:05.131 --> 01:04:06.071 It is man. 01:04:06.171 --> 01:04:07.211 Sam: Just, yeah, it's good. 01:04:07.451 --> 01:04:10.231 And if they get it wrong, that's as they are in that moment. 01:04:10.291 --> 01:04:10.511 Yeah. 01:04:11.591 --> 01:04:11.931 Yeah. 01:04:12.941 --> 01:04:13.791 Joe: There you go Joe. 01:04:14.071 --> 01:04:14.841 See you guys. 01:04:15.421 --> 01:04:16.931 Sam: See ya.