00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:44,940 [Bill Hodge]
[upbeat music] Welcome to our continued conversation for a wild and connected world, what we call The Wild Idea podcast. I'm Bill, a lifelong passionate steward of wild places, and through that work met my good friend and co-host Anders Reynolds, another committed wilderness nerd. We have been leaning into our curiosity about the people, places, and policies that give us our system of wild places and connected landscapes. We've been digging into the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature for, well, hard to believe, well over 60 episodes now. Today we engage in a little trail magic with one of the largest trail organizations in the country, the Washington Trails Association, and their CEO, Jaime Laucke. 

00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:56,260 [Bill Hodge]
Anders, one of my first memories of hanging out with you was on the trail. It's not like my first memory, but it's one that it really has hung with me. Can you name that trail? Do you remember this? 

00:00:56,260 --> 00:00:56,940 [Anders Reynolds]
Oh, hi, Bill. 

00:00:58,100 --> 00:01:01,720 [Anders Reynolds]
Oh, this is a great question. Um, 

00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:09,800 [Anders Reynolds]
I can narrow it down to two trails, so this may be a coin flip for me. But it was either 

00:01:11,220 --> 00:01:13,080 [Anders Reynolds]
the Upper Bald River Trail 

00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,300 [Anders Reynolds]
in the Cherokee National Forest, 

00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:26,180 [Anders Reynolds]
or it was a trail into the Linville Gorge. For which I did, I think I went 

00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:35,619 [Anders Reynolds]
on a little trip with the SAWS crew to look, uh, uh... You guys were maybe holding a volunteer work day, and I came along on that. Is that it? 

00:01:35,620 --> 00:02:00,760 [Bill Hodge]
That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah, I mean, and, and thanks for also remembering that trip up Brookshire Creek. Uh, so folks, this was when we were both working on the Tennessee Wilderness Bill, and when we were ultimately starting our friendship, uh, that led to our collective involvement in Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards, which we'll be talking about more later this month. But I was thinking about, yeah, that trip. Uh, we worked on the Hawksbill Trail in the Linville Gorge Wilderness. 

00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:09,220 [Anders Reynolds]
Right. That's right, the Hawksbill Trail. There's a lot of controversy about this because the real Hawksbill Trail is in the Ozark National Forest in Arkansas. 

00:02:10,660 --> 00:02:14,380 [Bill Hodge]
The real Hawksbill Trail is, is in the Linville Gorge Wilderness in North Carolina. But- 

00:02:14,380 --> 00:02:16,100 [Anders Reynolds]
It's the, the lesser Hawksbill- 

00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:16,109 [Bill Hodge]
[laughs] 

00:02:16,109 --> 00:02:18,359 [Anders Reynolds]
... I think is what people refer to that one. 

00:02:18,360 --> 00:03:11,180 [Bill Hodge]
I just remember the reason it sticks out to me is, like, I didn't really know you that well yet. I mean, I'd been working with you on a sort of a legislative level. But what I saw quickly from spending that time together on the trail, and I think we went to dinner. I think maybe even you hung out for the weekend. Like, I think we stayed in Boone, the, the group of us that were volunteering, was I was so excited to see somebody from DC who was, you know, sort of in that camp that's worried about putting lines on maps and designating areas actually out getting dirt under the fingernails and working on a trail. And little did I know just how committed you were gonna become to stewardship as a form of advocacy to the point where eventually you wound up as board chair of Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards. So that's, which is an organization that I started and, and was building at the time, and I, that's why that memory stands out to me. 

00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:24,920 [Anders Reynolds]
And what I remember is a similar moment of kinship, is that when we showed up, it was sort of embarrassing but sort of cute. We were both wearing the same color, like, kind of hiking short shorts. But we looked so good that weekend. 

00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:25,630 [Bill Hodge]
[laughs] 

00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:27,180 [Anders Reynolds]
Remember taking all those pictures together? 

00:03:27,180 --> 00:03:27,600 [Bill Hodge]
Oh, yeah. 

00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:37,580 [Bill Hodge]
[laughs] You acted like we don't wear our own personal protective equipment appropriately when we're working on trails. Nothing like wearing short shorts and swinging a Pulaski, right? So- 

00:03:37,580 --> 00:03:41,480 [Anders Reynolds]
That trip, that trip really did send me on a, on a journey, right? Um- 

00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:42,020 [Bill Hodge]
It did 

00:03:42,020 --> 00:03:48,609 [Anders Reynolds]
... to SAWS and, and to becoming your friend, and to sitting here [laughs] in front of two microphones like a couple of idiots. 

00:03:48,609 --> 00:03:48,620 [Bill Hodge]
[laughs] 

00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:53,210 [Anders Reynolds]
Here we are. Well, it's been a couple of months since we did, uh, had a theme month. Do- 

00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:53,210 [Bill Hodge]
Yeah 

00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:54,500 [Anders Reynolds]
... are we doing one this month? 

00:03:54,500 --> 00:04:21,500 [Bill Hodge]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the month of stewards, right? Like, so we're starting out with Jaime and the Washington Trails Association, who are celebrating 60 years. Uh, we're gonna be talking to Caitlin Deverona, the executive director of the aforementioned Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards. We're also gonna be digging into the stewardship of wild and scenic rivers with the team at the Flathead Rivers Alliance. So yeah, month of stewards here in June, and this is such a great way to kick it off. 

00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:26,200 [Anders Reynolds]
Month of stewards. I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited about today's conversation. 

00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:46,160 [Bill Hodge]
Yeah, let's do it. Jaime, first, welcome to the show. We're thrilled to talk trails and the Washington Trails Association, and there is just so much to dig into there. But how about a simple question to get us started? When or, or maybe how did trails become an important vector in your life? 

00:04:46,160 --> 00:06:08,020 [Jaime]
Oh, that's a great question. So, uh, so first of all, thanks so much for having me. Uh, really happy to be on the show, really happy to be talking about trails and the Washington Trails Association. Um, so for me, I grew up in Washington State and I grew up hiking. Uh, and, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's the sort of thing that when you're young, you come into with, you know, friends and family. So my dad took me out. Uh, I, I lived in Bellingham, which is, uh, a small town kind of north of Seattle in Washington State, um, right at the foot of a beautiful mountain called Mount Baker. Uh, and so went up to Mount Baker a lot, did overnights up there, and, and really fell in love at a young age with not only hiking, but just being out in the outdoors, being out in the, kind of, uh, in the wilderness a little bit and, and really just get- catching that bug of, of being on public lands, being out, out in the forest. And so that carried me, you know, through my, uh, young days, you know, kind of went off to college, went and, and did a whole set of careers, but always knew that I wanted to work back in the outdoors space. Um, and so when my, my wife and I decided to move back to Washington State, we were looking at an organization that we could do, go, go to, that I could go to, that was focused on defending the outdoors. And so, uh, Washington Trails Association is that organization, and I was so happy to find a place here.

00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:17,839 [Bill Hodge]
Was there a, was there a particular, like, moment on a trail or a trail memory that put you on the path that that's the sort of career you were looking for when you came back to Washington? 

00:06:17,840 --> 00:07:15,600 [Jaime]
Yeah. I, I actually look back, and I talked to my dad about this 'cause there were-- there's, um, [lips smack] a-an overnight that we like to do up at Baker, and it has these just absolutely beautiful three-sixty views. And from, from there, what you can see, you can see into the North Cascades, so you see just, like, peaks on peaks, uh, receding into the distance. But you can also see down to the San Juan Islands. So it's this just absolutely spectacular place, and I, I remember, uh, being up there and the sun rising and just kind of like getting that, like, full three-sixty view and, and feeling on top of the world. And, and that's a moment that stuck with me, you know, throughout my life. And, and I think that those, those moments when you're connecting with nature, those are the sorts of kind of transformative moments that we try and enable because I've seen how transformative it was for me, and I feel like the more we can give people those opportunities, the more I think they can then see the value and power of the outdoors. 

00:07:16,740 --> 00:07:23,720 [Anders Reynolds]
Hi, Mate. Thanks for being here. Um, Washington Trails Association started sixty years ago in nineteen sixty-six- 

00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:24,120 [Jaime]
Mm-hmm 

00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,580 [Anders Reynolds]
... as a grassroots newsletter, right? Called Signpost. 

00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:28,620 [Jaime]
That's right. 

00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:54,480 [Anders Reynolds]
Which, to my understanding, was essentially a way for trail lovers to swap notes on, like, backcountry conditions and trail conditions. Can you tell us more about the intervening sixty years and maybe share a little bit about what it means to you to be leading this organization at its sixtieth anniversary, um, and how you think about that arc maybe from newsletter to one of the largest trail maintenance nonprofits in the country? 

00:07:54,480 --> 00:09:49,840 [Jaime]
Yeah. It, it's-- I mean, it's quite a story. You know, you, [chuckles] you only turn sixty once, and, and sixty years for an organization is a, is a pretty big milestone. Um, so we, we started as, as you mentioned, as Signpost Magazine. Uh, our founder, Louise Marshall, started it at her kitchen table, uh, and really, uh, it was just, like, a labor of love. Um, and we've spoken to her daughter about her memories of, of those days really collecting and sharing information about trails to people who care about trails. And so that was core to our DNA from the beginning. Another thing that people, not everyone knows is that core, uh, since the beginning was also advocating for public lands. So it was both sharing information as well as speaking up about the importance of public lands and trails, of the importance of defending those trails and public lands. And so that, that's kind of been woven into our organizat- our organizational DNA since the beginning. Um, now, of course, a lot has changed [chuckles] in sixty years. We've gotten a lot bigger. We've gotten... A-about thirty years ago, we started a, a trail maintenance program, which is now one of the largest of its kind in the country. Um, we do all sorts of other types of programs, youth programs, community-based programs, really all with that goal of helping connect people to the outdoors, giving them the information they need to get outside safely, giving them opportunities to give back. Um, and one of the things that I think is just, like, so cool about this, this trajectory as an organization is when you've been a long- around for sixty years, you certainly you, you learn a few things as an organization, and you build a community. And so I think the, the most exciting thing that WTA does is build community, help people connect with each other, help people connect with outdoors, connect with opportunities to give back, and that's the sort of thing that just, like, gets me up every day is, is a very cool thing. 

00:09:51,500 --> 00:10:27,500 [Bill Hodge]
It's, it's interesting. There's a lot of pillars, and I'm probably gonna find myself asking this question a lot of different ways in our conversation. [chuckles] But when you look at that collective legacy over the sixty years, is, is there, is there one pillar that stands out? Is it the three million volunteer hours? Three... Listen to me, folks. Three million volunteer hours that the organization has facilitated. Or is it the connections that you're creating for new generations, people who maybe aren't connected? Or is it the role in protecting the landscapes that these trails are in? I'm assuming, I'm gonna bet the answer's like it's a combination, but I'm curious how you think about those pillars. 

00:10:27,500 --> 00:12:50,608 [Jaime]
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a really great question, Bill, and, and one of the things that, that is, uh, somewhat challenging is we do a lot of things, and they're all important. And so understanding the different facets of the work we do, how they link together is certainly took me a while when I arrived at WTA. Um, so the way I think about it is it's a little bit of a, a flywheel, like a cycle. You know, the-- one of the very important things that we do is give high-quality, reliable information about trails and trail conditions, and we give that for free to everybody who wants it. And millions of people come to our website and hiking guide to get real up-to-date information about trails, where to go, how to get there, and, and what are the conditions going to be like when you get there. Because if you can't-- if you don't know where to go, th-that's gonna be a challenge. So, so we really try and meet people there and help them get outside. Again, this was kind of the, the way it started was sharing information about trails to people who wanted to get outside. Then as people get outside and hopefully have a good time and, and really see the value of the outdoors, that's when we really try and connect them with opportunities to give back. And one of those big opportunities is to do trail maintenance work. And so as you mentioned, you know, we do-- we have volunteer, uh, trail crews across the state. They do over a hundred and sixty thousand hours of trail maintenance work every single year. That's about five million dollars in contributed trail work. Um, and so that's a big part of what we do just to maintain trails, keep trails open, keep them, um, sustainable.But there's other ways to get involved as well. We, you know, we have what, what we call the Trail Action Network for people who wanna speak up, uh, speak to their elected, speak to, you know, members of Congress and, uh, the state government about protecting and defending trails. We have, uh, the youth programs that I mentioned that help next generation young people get outside, help them catch the bug. Um, so we have a, a range of other ways that we get people involved. Um, and of course, one way people can get involved is by donating. You know, we are a nonprofit organization. 50% of our budget comes from donations. And so we try and remind people that even though we're doing i- this important work, we're not a government agency. We're a nonprofit. We're supported by hikers. We're supported by people who like the outdoors, and so it- it's another way to get involved. 

00:12:50,608 --> 00:13:11,808 [Anders Reynolds]
I mean, your new strategic roadmap, speaking of, of pillars, is, is built around four of them. Uh, defending wild and iconic places, connecting all communities to trails, growing the next generation of leaders, and building an outdoors movement. Um, I'm gonna ask you to pick a favorite child. If you had to pick one of those that feels most urgent right now. 

00:13:11,808 --> 00:15:28,468 [Jaime]
Oh, my. Uh, that's a good question. And, and I, I, um, I really appreciate you, you, uh, asking about the kind of direction we're going next. I, I-- So I think right now is a really, uh, important pivot point for trails and public lands. This is a really important moment that we're in r- currently. And the-- one of the reasons why we started our new strategic plan with w- the, the first focus area that, that I think about is defending Washington's wild, uh, and s- and iconic places. It is because without public lands, we are not... The access to the outdoors, access to the trails, the, the places that we love is, is not possible. It, it really relies on public lands and people being able to then go to those places. And so especially now when public lands are, are at greater threat, gr- threat of being defunded, of the agencies that support public lands not having the resources they need to maintain public lands, of the lands themselves being sold, that to me is fundamental for our mission. And so, so right now that is something that we all need to speak up about and, and defend those public lands. That is, is kind of like, uh, s- what I would say necessary but not sufficient. You know? Like, that to me is, like, table stakes. Like, we need to k- keep these public lands. We need to keep them open. We need to keep them public. But then how do we get people outside? How do we actually then build the community that's gonna sustain those public lands? And I think that's where the other focus areas come into play. So connecting everyone to the outdoors, connecting everyone to trails, that's about making sure every community in Washington, our focus is Washington, has the ability to get outside and see what goes into maintaining trails. And then of course, the, the next gen leaders is, is one of the things that we're most excited about. You know, w- when you are out with young people who haven't necessarily had the opportunity to get outside, taking them out backpacking for the first time, taking them out camping for the first time, letting them really see the outdoors and be in the outdoors, those are transformative experiences. And again, the kind of what I was speaking about earlier. Like, that's what shaped me as a young person and, and giving opportunities to then shape the next generation, that's, that's really important. 

00:15:28,468 --> 00:16:03,888 [Anders Reynolds]
I notice your roadmap talks about expanding trail work into urban areas, into county parks, for example. You know, not, not just the deep backcountry work that you've done so well for 60 years. And that, that's so cool. I love that idea. That's a- such a meaningful shift. Is the idea of building community and expanding access that you just mentioned sort of what's driving that idea? And if so, you know, how do you balance the needs of hikers who wanna protect remote wilderness areas with communities who need and want access to green space right there in their back- backyard? 

00:16:05,738 --> 00:17:39,188 [Jaime]
That's a really great question. I, I think-- The way I think about it is that these are not, um, necessarily in competition. They're complementary. And so one of the things that we are finding is that offering closer in day work parties, particularly in close in areas, you get an, an opportunity to get people out who, who might not otherwise get out, um, on trail or at trail work parties. You know, it's, it's a lot more inviting to go to your local park and do a day work party than it is to sign up for, you know, a six-day hitch in the backcountry if you've never done it. And so y- one, it, it can be a bit of an entry way into seeing what goes into trail maintenance, seeing all the work that is required to just to maintain the trails that we have. Um, and it also builds community. You know, we have, uh, volunteer, uh, trail maintenance, you know, trail maintenance volunteers across the state, and the communities in the different regions, they know each other. They're, they're friends. They g- they get together, and they get to know their local communities, their local priorities. So it really connects local communities to the trails in their areas in a way that then empowers those communities. And we have lots of communities in Washington that don't have as much access to the outdoors as they should. Um, you know, we go down to Tacoma a lot. You know, we do work parties there. You get young people who have grown up within sight of Mount Rainier who have never had the opportunity to actually be at Rainier. And so, uh, one, one of the things we're trying to do is just reduce that distance, really help people connect. 

00:17:40,278 --> 00:18:27,404 [Jaime]
Then w- the other thing that we're finding is that for the backcountry priorities, you know, these are areas that have a huge amount of deferred maintenance, a huge amount of technical work that needs to happen. We are actually finding that paid professional crews going in for p- extended hitches in the backcountry can be a major unlock. And so this is particularly relevant for post-wildfire areas. You know-Wildfires are increasing. The devastation of those wildfires is, is increasing. It's not work that volunteers necessarily can do. And so what we've been doing is we've been deploying these professional crews doing highly technical, you know, work that then opens up these areas so that volunteer crews can go in afterwards. So it, it-- I find it highly complimentary. 

00:18:29,344 --> 00:18:54,884 [Anders Reynolds]
I, uh, I wanna jump in. I'm like [chuckles] coming out of my seat here. It just is, is like creating, uh, whatever the opposite of PTSD is. This is creating such warm memories for me, this... Because this is a lot of, of, of my genesis of being in th- in this outdoor world was, was very, very similar to what you do at, uh, the Washington Trails Association. And I'm curious, for me, 

00:18:55,944 --> 00:18:58,554 [Anders Reynolds]
uh, I just want your response to this. For me, it was, it was, it was-- 

00:18:59,744 --> 00:19:28,404 [Anders Reynolds]
There's the big picture wins. It's like the logistics of pulling off this major reroute that makes this trail more sustainable. But, but the fuel really becomes the, you know, the individual kid who was part of a, uh, an urban youth connection program or something that said, "Hey, the reason I'm now a Park Service employee was because I came through your program." I'm curious. Is that, is that similar for you? Is it... It's like you don't win every battle, but man, the wins can f- can really light a fire, I think. 

00:19:29,604 --> 00:21:02,344 [Jaime]
I, I totally agree. I mean, it, it is... Ultimately, it's about the people, the community, and the trails. You know, it's just, it's about good times and outdoors. And, and I think, you know, some of the things that, uh, you know, are highlights to me in my work are when I get to then get out on trail with our community, with our volunteers, with our staff, and, and really hands in the dirt get to do the work, and that is just such a joy. And, and we see, you know, certainly at our organization, we see volunteers that come in and then grow to be crew leads, to, to lead crews, to be leading the work. We see folks who come in through youth programs who then end up on staff, who work with us and then are kind of, you know, h- growing their technical skills. Uh, we, we can see over the course of years, we can see people's journeys. Uh, and it's, it-- I find it really inspiring, and I think it's the thing that then adds up to the big victories. Because, you know, one of the things that we saw last year, uh, you know, we saw a lot of shocks to the system. You know, we saw, uh, you know, defunding of our agencies. We saw efforts to privatize public lands. And w- as we saw those challenges, we were able to connect with the broader community that, uh, everyone who loves the outdoors, uh, to speak up against those things. And so we were able to kind of shut down the efforts to privatize public lands for now. We were able to really kind of speak up about the importance of these lands, and, and that happens w- as you build community. 

00:21:02,344 --> 00:21:15,604 [Anders Reynolds]
Yeah. There's a phrase, I think, in your strategic roadmap that says, "We are the strongest force for public lands when we speak together." And I'm really catching on as to why that might be one of the, um, driving forces in your organization listening to you talk. 

00:21:17,544 --> 00:22:37,444 [Jaime]
Yeah. And, and just on that point, Anders, for, for a moment that, that I spoke about three of our kind of focus area pillars earlier, but I didn't speak about our fourth one, which is what we call building an outdoors movement. And, and I actually think that this is the one... You know, if I had to pick one, this is the one that gets me the most excited about the future because, you know, they, they always say, you know, like with every challenge is an opportunity, and I think the, the challenges that we're seeing facing trails and public lands right now does create an opportunity for us to knit together a broader group of people who care about the outdoors. And, and for a lot of ti- a l- a number of years, you know, recreation groups kinda stick together, conservation groups stick together, the kind of hunters and anglers stick together, motorized is all. You know, we all care about public lands, but we don't necessarily coordinate with each other. I think that's changing. I think we have much more opportunity to say all of us who care about public lands in every way need to work together to make sure that we have those lands for future generations, and that we can continue to rely on them and benefit from them. And so I think that's, that's, to me, the most exciting new thing that I'm seeing, is those opportunities to really collaborate ac- with, with folks we haven't collaborated with as much in the past. 

00:22:37,444 --> 00:23:29,364 [Anders Reynolds]
Yes. Uh, e-exactly, and to defend against efforts to, to allow the administration to drive wedges between those communities, I think. Um, I wanna go back to some of the, the shocks in the system you were talking about. Um, in early twenty twenty-five, um, as most of our listeners probably know, the Trump administration fired, you know, around thirty-four hundred Forest Service employees, a thousand National Park Service staff, um, and, and those numbers included hundreds, um, I think in Washington. Um, Washington Trails Association noted at the time that the recreation team responsible for the Enchantments landscape was cut from thirteen people to three. Um, you were talking, uh, earlier a little bit about your, your crews in the backcountry, but what's been the on-the-ground impact for those volunteer crews that are trying to do trail work, you know, without those agency partners around? 

00:23:29,364 --> 00:25:40,864 [Jaime]
Yeah. I-- It's, it's been extremely difficult. Um, and, and I think one of the things that I do, uh, I try to point out each time is that twenty twenty-five was not the first time that, you know, uh, funding or capacity for agencies that manage public lands was cut. It, it-- This has been a long time decline in resourcing these agencies. Um, twenty twenty-five was, was, was bad, but it wasn't the first time that these agencies have been kind of, uh, the, the resources and capacity for these agencies have been reduced. So this has been a longer term kind of, um, trajectory that has been worrying.I would say that twenty twenty-five though took this to, to an extreme. You know, we, we were seeing core frontline staff at these agencies disappear, and what that does is that then that creates a void, you know? And then it becomes very difficult then to identify priorities across public lands. So either within an agency or across agencies, becomes very difficult for organizations like WTA and our partners to then go in and help do the work because we don't have folks on the other side to then help receive that work or help us kind of direct it. So one of the things that we've been trying to do, we, we're very lucky in Washington State to have a very well-connected, well-coordinated set of outdoor nonprofits. Um, we all connect. We are friends. We work-- we collaborate very well together. And so we do have a little bit of that connective tissue that's needed to then say, "Okay, agency partners, Forest Service, the National Park Service, we can still help. We can help track priorities. We can help deploy crews." But it, it's really... It, it's a void. It's, it's a, it's a gap. And so I think one of the things that we're continuing to advocate for is to return that technical capacity where it needs to be, which is within the agencies. And until that happens, we as the nonprofit partners do need to try and kind of, uh, carry the torch as much as we can and, and keep this work moving forward. 

00:25:40,864 --> 00:26:00,284 [Anders Reynolds]
Yeah. Say a little bit more about that. Like, you've had to push back against federal staffing cuts while simultaneously launching this new strategic plan that we're talking about and celebrating this milestone anniversary that, you know, I hope you feel a lot of love over. How do you keep the organization focused and not just in sort of permanent crisis response mode? 

00:26:00,284 --> 00:27:53,604 [Jaime]
Oh, man. Really good question. I, I think what we've had practice doing, and, and we actually got [chuckles]... I've said this a couple of times. We had some practice during the pandemic of, of a similar kind of shock to the system where all of a sudden you had to say, "Okay, well, now what? Everything's kind of fallen apart. Well, how do we put the pieces together?" And, and a few of the things that we learned during the pandemic. One was, again, the importance of collaboration, the importance of working with the partners that we have with honesty, with transparency, with a, a, a view to how do we make the best of this challenging situation. And the other thing that we learned was how do we filter opportunities through our mission? And so we ha- we're the Washington Trails Association. It's in our name, the trails piece. And so w-we-- every opportunity that we-- that comes to us, we need to say, "Does it advance our mission or not?" And if it is not core to the work that we do on trails connecting people to trails and outdoors, then it's not for us. And even within that, you know, there are certain things that we can do as a nonprofit and as a, as a volunteer, you know, staff and volunteer-led organization, and there's stuff that, that we're not gonna do. And so what we have done is say, "Okay, we're, we're very good at connecting communities to volunteer, volunteer opportunities. We're actually very good at technical trail work," and that includes trail system planning. It's kind of the whole spread of what goes into trail maintenance. How do we then maintain, build those skills so that we can be a go-to partner for the agencies when they need it? So that's kind of been, been, uh, an evolution of our work, but we're really trying to kind of grow from what we already know how to do and what we know how to do well versus just take on whatever is, is kind of out there. 

00:27:53,604 --> 00:27:57,524 [Bill Hodge]
Someone's gotta pay the light bill. We'll be right back after this break. 

00:27:57,524 --> 00:28:01,604 [Speaker 3]
I'm Jack Staus from Salt Lake City, Utah, and you're listening to The Wild Idea. 

00:28:01,604 --> 00:28:24,644 [Bill Hodge]
Jaime, sort of picking up where we left off, as you look at the stack of work that's in front of you every day, I'd love to know how you go about balancing the head and the heart. And by that I mean, like, the logical work, the creation of opportunities, the tangible work on the ground versus the passion work of standing up for wild places for the Evergreen State. Like, how do you, 

00:28:25,864 --> 00:28:39,024 [Bill Hodge]
how do you sort of look at it on, on a day-to-day basis? I know you've got this new, you know, sort of strategic plan that sets a, a, a roadmap, but, like, when those feet hit the floor in the morning, how do you think about balancing sort of the head and the heart? 

00:28:39,024 --> 00:29:24,604 [Jaime]
You know, it's a really good question, and, and one of the things that, um, motivated me to work for Washington Trails Association was to work at a place where, where we connect with our mission on a daily basis. Everyone... A-and I, I, uh, I think I can say this pretty, pretty confidently. Everyone who chooses to work at Washington Trails Association has a passion for our mission. You don't end up working there just randomly. And so, so for the most part, we are working alongside other people who share that passion for the outdoors, who share that connection to our mission. And so that allows us to actually bring that kind of, um, orientation, that North Star orientation to our work on a daily basis. 

00:29:25,844 --> 00:31:05,768 [Jaime]
Now, that said, it, that, that creates its own challenges because you can't say yes to everything, and you can't do everything. And so you still need to go through the process of saying, "Okay, what do we do now? What are the most important opportunities? How do we put our resources to best use when we-- resources are finite, we can't do everything." And that's actually one of the things we're trying to do with this new strategic plan is to say, "What are the things that are most important facing trails and public lands for the foreseeable future, and how do we evolve our work to meet those challenges, meet those opportunities in the best way?" And, and one of my roles, you know, as the CEO is to help kind of point the direction, but then to let the teams who are closer to the work on the ground, let them see what the opportunities look like. Let, let, hel- have them build it. Because typically, you know, the folks who are closest to the work have the best view of what is needed. And so we are very lucky to have absolutely wonderful teams, you know, folks at every team who areDeep in the work, know what is needed, and are helping drive that work forward with kind of like the best opportunities that we can. Um, and so I'll give just one example. You know, our advocacy team, it's not the largest team on staff, but it's, you know, it's small and mighty, and they are the ones who are engaging with our elected officials. They are the ones who are going to DC and speaking up about the need to resource and defend public lands. They are the ones who are identifying then the opportunities for us to speak with one voice about policies. And so it's, it's the folks who are closest to the work who then should be driving and setting those priorities. 

00:31:05,768 --> 00:31:38,288 [Bill Hodge]
Yeah, you, you bring up the, the advocacy team and, and, and the organization's work in advocacy. How do you balance what I'm sure is a range of perspectives on the future of public lands from your membership? I gotta imagine occasionally you get some pushback, and I'm curious how you think about, and 'cause I think about this a lot, like, how do you balance that in an era when we seem to be able to polarize most anything. I don't know how sometimes, but we do. Like, how do you, how do you balance that range of perspectives that maybe even exists within your board, not just within your membership? 

00:31:38,288 --> 00:32:03,108 [Jaime]
You know, it's, it's interesting because I, I do feel like public lands is one of the few remaining bipartisan, truly bipartisan issues out there. And it's, it's... I've actually seen more, um, consensus, more, um, unanimity than I have, uh, an- antipathy, uh, around public lands, and particularly in Washington State where, 

00:32:04,388 --> 00:32:19,498 [Jaime]
you know, it doesn't really matter your political affiliation, we care about public lands. And this is, it kinda goes to what I was saying earlier about the opportunity to connect, you know, folks in the conservation space, folks in the recreation space, folks in the hunting and angling space. Like, you know, 

00:32:21,048 --> 00:33:18,948 [Jaime]
we may think differently about policies, but when it comes to the importance of public lands and the importance of maintaining those public lands, pretty much everyone is-- agrees this is important. A- and I think for Washington State, we have public lands. We're, we're, we are lucky to have a, a, a, a richness of public lands, and they contribute an enormous amount to our economy, to the health of our communities, to the recreation opportunities, to travel and tourism. It's kind of across the board is a driver of our state economy. So regardless of whether you, you know, in particular choose to recreate or whatever you choose to do, you, you see the importance of it. And so I think, you know, that's been a, that's a-- been a very nice thing where we can start with a position of agreeing and then really start to work on then how do we elevate that perspective. How do we mi- remind elected officials that this is important to our state, to people across the political spectrum, and how do we kind of build those bridges? 

00:33:18,948 --> 00:34:07,968 [Anders Reynolds]
Hymie, I wanna jump in here because, um, I'm hearing you say that, that public lands are sort of one of the last bipartisan issues left, and I totally agree with that. [chuckles] Like, so many people in your neighborhood all agree on the value of these places, whether they're within a mile or a thousand miles of where they live. Um, but still, I notice that the political reality requires that you have an advocacy team, right, that has to travel to Washington, DC, for Hike the Hill or for your own meetings with congressional offices or to sit down directly with the Forest Service chief, whatever it, it may be. So, you know, some of that agreement that we have locally doesn't seem to translate to DC, and I'm, I'm wondering if you maybe have a theory of, of why that is or maybe even just what you learn from those conversations in DC that you couldn't have learned any other way. 

00:34:07,968 --> 00:34:21,908 [Jaime]
Yeah, it's, it's a really great question, and I think that, you know, I gravitate towards the, to the positive, so I like to see those moments of unanimity, of, of, you know, communities speaking up together. And the reality is that, y- you know, 

00:34:23,068 --> 00:34:55,468 [Jaime]
particularly, you know, at the state level, at the federal level, these are people who are making difficult decisions in a resource-constrained environment. And so one of the things that we're able to do as a nonprofit is advocate, and agencies are not able to do that. You know, government a- agencies can't advocate for themselves. So to a certain degree, we are the ones who can give voice to those agencies when they can't do it themselves and say, "This is not okay. This is-- We need to bring funding levels back to where they were, resource staffing levels," all of that. 

00:34:56,568 --> 00:36:27,428 [Jaime]
The other piece of it that I find quite important is just reminding electeds. You know, like we go to Olympia, we meet with our, you know, state representatives, all of our elected officials. They're very friendly conversations because i- if you're, uh, an elected official in, in Washington State, you care about the outdoors. I could tell you that. But it is a reminder. It's just saying that this is continues to be important. And as you're thinking about, you know, our state budget has been, it's been a tough, tough budget cycle, uh, it, it will continue to be a tough budget cycle for the foreseeable future. It's important that our communities speak up in those times to say, "We care about this. We need to maintain the funding where it is." Um, and even with that, you know, difficult decisions are being made that then reduces that funding that we then need to fight to get it back. And so, so there is work to do even when more or less people say, "Oh, yes, I get it. I, I get that it's important." We, we-- It, it can be important, but we still need to resource it. And, and one of the things that I think not everyone recognizes is that trails don't just happen. They don't just maintain themselves. They don't just exist out of nowhere. It takes time. It takes, uh, resources. It takes money to actually maintain the trails that we have. And, and without doing that, then those trails aren't going to be, uh, accessible. And so I think that's the other kind of connection point that we need to say. Like, just because we have it now doesn't mean that we're always gonna have it and doesn't mean that we don't also need to resource it to maintain it.

00:36:27,756 --> 00:36:51,015 [Anders Reynolds]
Yeah. A couple pieces of advocacy there. You know, we've talked a bit now a bit about your advocacy team, but can you talk about the team as a whole? It must be full of incredible talent. I, I imagine it takes an army to marshal all of the resources that have facilitated, as we heard earlier, three million volunteer hours in the history of the organization. Can you talk about that team and kind of maybe what it looks like structurally? 

00:36:51,016 --> 00:38:21,216 [Jaime]
Oh, man. Yeah. We've got, we've got a really, really great team. I, I just g- w- going into the office is, is a lot of fun. It's a lot of really cool people. Um, we have, uh, you know, a fairly large staff. We-- Most of us are based in, in, uh, Seattle. We have a, a nice office there. But we have folks across the state, and so we have kind of satellite offices in different regions. About half of our staff are on, uh, the trails team. And so we have, uh, a lot of staff who- whose day-to-day jobs are focused on trails, and whether that's leading crews or doing all of the logistics work to then support those crews, all of the planning work. It's-- It is an enormous amount of work to unlock those hundred and sixty thousand hours of volunteer labor per year. The three million that we've done through our history, you know, that doesn't just happen. So, so when we're fully staffed for the season, we're, um, we're essentially as big as any rec department of any national forest. We're, we're on par with the agencies, at least in terms of size and scale. Um, and we have a technical shop as well. And so folks that lead trainings. F- We're actually about to head into what we call Crew Leader College, which is our kind of weekend where all of our crew leads get together, and we do a lot of fun trainings and make sure everybody has all the skills they need to get volunteers out. 

00:38:22,356 --> 00:40:13,816 [Jaime]
Um, we have our advocacy team. And one of the teams that I haven't spoken about yet is we have our community partnership and leadership development team, CPLD, and they run a series of, uh, trainings, outdoor leadership trainings for community partners, and they also manage a, a number of gear libraries, gear lending libraries. And this is, I think, some of the coolest work that we do, where we connect community groups to opportunities to train, to get youth outside, and then we give those groups access to free gear. Gear is expensive, and if you're a young person, y- you know, it's, it's hard to get the boots, the backpacks, the jackets, the... You know, if you're backpacking, the tent. All of that stuff costs a lot of money. And so by giving them this really high-quality gear lending experience, it get-- helps them get outside. It, it gives them those really positive experiences in outdoors. And one of the things that we've seen about that program, that's grown so that some weekends in the summer, every single piece of gear is checked out. We had five thousand outdoor experiences last year from youth who wouldn't otherwise have gotten outside. And so it's really a, a really wonderful program there too. Um, and then like all nonprofits, we have a fundraising, uh, team, a development team. About fifty-- More than fifty percent of our budget comes from donations, so we really try and meet donors where they are, help them see the impact of their donations. Um, and then we have a comms team that does, uh, incredible work. I don't know if you two have seen our magazine. We have a really wonderful magazine, has great stories. It maintains our website and our hiking guide. Uh, we have something like four thousand trails that are on our, our website. Like, we just have an absolute wealth of information, and that needs to be maintained. And so there's a team that does that. 

00:40:13,816 --> 00:40:59,876 [Anders Reynolds]
This is so rad, Jaime. I'm, like, so happy to hear you talk about all this stuff. Uh, I find it super, super compelling. This is gonna be my last question, so I'm gonna say goodbye first. But I-- You know, I know it's the organization and not you that's, that got a big birthday coming up, but I hope when I'm turning sixty, I have got the energy and vision that I'm seeing from you. I, I have just really appreciated this conversation. Um, but before you go, one last question from me. Um, you know, WTA's vision is trails for everyone forever. If that's not clear to people from what you said, it, it-- I, I hope they'll hear me say it. You know, what would have to be true in twenty-thirty when you reach the end of this strategic plan for you to feel like you made real progress on the everyone part of that vision? 

00:41:01,256 --> 00:41:01,736 [Jaime]
Hmm. 

00:41:02,956 --> 00:43:22,716 [Jaime]
Great question. I mean, so our vision, trails for everyone forever, which I love. You know, it's only four words, and it's our North Star. It, it is not something... I, I try and remind staff, I try and remind our board, like, this is not something that we're gonna be able to s- like, declare victory on in our lifetimes. Like, this is something that will be a North Star for hopefully our organization for another sixty years. Like, building towards trails for everyone forever. This is-- That's a journey that's gonna take a while. But I think each piece of that, the trails for everyone and the trails forever, each of those is important because e- without one you can't have the other. And so, you know, we work on the trails forever piece with all the work that we've talked about. How do we maintain public lands? How we defend public lands? How do we make sure that those trails are open and accessible? But the trails for everyone piece is, is as important, and it is about making sure that everyone feels welcome in the outdoors. That every single person who wants to get outside has those opportunities to get outside. And so when I think about that side of things, I think about are our youth feeling welcome? Are communities feeling welcome in the outdoors? Are more people getting outside and enjoying that time outside? And, and I think we've, we've evolved past this idea of, like, more recreation is necessarily bad because it's not. It's-- It is important for people to get outside, and it's important for us to sustain trails and public lands so that they can meet the needs of the people who use them. Because, uh, that's, that's how this is going to sustain itself, is by having people get outside, recognize the value of the outdoors, and then choose to support it. And so it's, it's really built into our kind of, umUh, way of doing work is saying that helping people get outside is an integral part of then them wanting to defend and sustain public lands, which is going to get us closer to that Trails Forever piece. Um, so I love it, and, and I think each year we get a little bit bigger, our community gets bigger. We see the richness of that community, and if, if in five years we're kind of all sitting around at Crew Leader College or at kind of our Hike the State event and just seeing more people from different backgrounds who are speaking up and getting outside, to me that, that is a victory. 

00:43:22,716 --> 00:43:34,456 [Bill Hodge]
I've got a couple last short questions for you. One, I'm curious how people get involved with WTA. Like, can you give the pitch on how people connect with the work and how they can get involved? 

00:43:34,456 --> 00:45:22,776 [Jaime]
Oh, yeah. Thanks for asking that. Uh, so I think a lot of people come to us through our website and hiking guide. You know, we get, uh, I think something like one or two million visitors each month in the high season. So we get a lot of people organically coming to our website looking for information about trails. As they come, they, uh, are greeted also with an opportunity to donate. And so sometimes the very first step is saying, "Oh, hey, I, I benefited from this information." It's a little bit of a Wikipedia style. Like, the information is free, but it's not free to maintain. So if you benefit from it, if you enjoy it, please consider donating. So we, we often get people in there saying, "Okay, I'll, I'll make a 10, $20 a month donation." Ideally, it's kind of recurring. And then as they kind of get to know the work and what goes into it, then they have opportunities as well to choose to volunteer. And so we have work parties. We have day-long work parties across the state. It's very easy to sign up. You don't have to have any experience. And, and one of the things our, our, uh, trail team always says is it's be safe, have some fun, and get some work done, in that order. And so it's you just come out. We want everybody to be safe. We want everyone to enjoy themselves, and if we get some work done in the process, even better. Um, but it's a very welcoming environment. Um, and I, I've mentioned before our Trail Action Network. There are people who really, y- you know, for whatever reason, maybe they can't get out on trail, or maybe they choose to participate in other ways. There are opportunities to have your voice heard. And so signing up for our action alerts, signing up for opportunities to then speak up for things that, that we care about for trails, that, that benefit trails, is a really great way for us to then con- galvanize the community and, and connect to impact. 

00:45:22,776 --> 00:45:33,896 [Bill Hodge]
Wow. A lot of ways, a lot of ways people can engage with the Washington Trails Association. Uh, my, my last question for you, are the, what are the fun ways you're celebrating 60? Do you guys have some events on the calendar? 

00:45:33,896 --> 00:45:45,496 [Jaime]
Oh. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, we're doing a lot more external stuff. Podcasts like, like this one. It's really nice to just have conversations about our work to, to talk about where we've been, where we're going. 

00:45:45,496 --> 00:45:48,746 [Bill Hodge]
Wait a second. You're... Wait a second. You're doing other podcasts? 

00:45:50,536 --> 00:46:56,876 [Jaime]
This is the first or the only one so far. [laughs] It's a high-water mark today. Um, yeah, so we're, we're doing a number of, um, kind of rollout events. So we're gonna be gathering with our community. We do what we call Hiker Happy Hours. So in our different regions, get together with donors, with volunteers, talk about where we're going. Um, we have, uh, we're actually... [laughs] I guess I'll announce this now. We're going to be doing a, a very small merch shop on our website. So we'll allow people. We've been asked this for a lot of years. So people can buy T-shirts. We have a, a very nice 60th anniversary T-shirt. Um, so we're finally letting people. We'll see how it goes. We're, we're gonna let people buy the merch and, and rep us. Um, and, and events like that. Um, we actually have been branching out. This Friday we'll be doing an event at Benaroya Hall with the Northwest Symphony Orchestra. So we're kind of combining folks who love classical music with folks who love the outdoors. Really interesting kind of partnerships like that. And so, so we're really leaning into just kind of getting out there, having fun, helping people connect with our mission in different ways. 

00:46:56,876 --> 00:47:32,536 [Bill Hodge]
Well, we love that one of the ways you're celebrating is joining us here on The Wild Idea, and I do wanna take this moment to give a shout-out to Derise Norman on your staff, who reached out to me and said, "I think Jaime would be a good fit for your podcast." And boy, was she right. This was such a great conversation. I am, I'm ready to get my, uh, boots on and throw a crosscut saw over my shoulder, and let's go get some trails opened up. Jaime, it's just been a real treat to have you, uh, on the podcast, and just thank you so much for joining us. And I'm so excited for the 60 years that you and the Washington Trails Association are celebrating. Thanks. Thanks so much. 

00:47:32,536 --> 00:47:36,876 [Jaime]
Thank you both so much. Really real pleasure and a really fun conversation. 

00:47:36,876 --> 00:48:20,416 [Bill Hodge]
What a great way to kick off our month of stewardship here in June. Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we stay focused on the amazing stewards of our public wildlands and visit with an old friend, an organization Anders and I have deep connections to, Southern Appalachian Wilderness Stewards. And we talk our wild scenic river system here on my home waters with the Flathead Rivers Alliance. If you wanna stay on top of what all we have going on, you can register for our newsletter at thewildidea.com. If you wanna be an active member of our community, we would love a recommendation to your friends and family. And if you wanna buy us a coffee, well, you can support us with a contribution through Buy Me a Coffee, which you can find on our website. We are excited for the journey. We are all on with you, and we can't wait to see each of you on down the trail. 

00:48:22,196 --> 00:48:55,616 [Speaker 3]
The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilcheszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, "Spring Hill Jack," is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Keahan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Lara Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.