1 00:00:05,650 --> 00:00:10,119 Welcome back to Count Me In, the podcast focused on the issues, challenges, 2 00:00:10,380 --> 00:00:14,880 and characters shaping the management accounting profession. I'm Adam Larson. 3 00:00:14,881 --> 00:00:19,320 Today I'm joined by Mark Herschberg, serial entrepreneur, business innovator, 4 00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:22,040 and the author of the Career Toolkit: 5 00:00:22,041 --> 00:00:25,760 Essential Skills for Success that No One Taught You. Now, 6 00:00:25,950 --> 00:00:30,200 lots of people cover career and work best practices, but if you ask me, 7 00:00:30,610 --> 00:00:34,520 it all can start to sound pretty similar, but that's not the case with Mark. 8 00:00:34,530 --> 00:00:38,120 There's a good reason he teaches at MIT, which you're about to find out. 9 00:00:38,650 --> 00:00:39,121 In fact, 10 00:00:39,121 --> 00:00:42,960 Mark had so much insight and advice to share from his research and years of 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,120 building companies and teams, we ended up recording two podcasts, 12 00:00:46,260 --> 00:00:49,640 the second of which will be coming out soon. But for now, 13 00:00:49,641 --> 00:00:52,960 let's get started with Mark Herschberg discussing the fallout from the great 14 00:00:52,961 --> 00:00:55,800 resignation and what he's learned about how to fix work. 15 00:01:03,390 --> 00:01:03,881 Mark, 16 00:01:03,881 --> 00:01:06,959 I wanted to just thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and today 17 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,080 we're gonna really focus on the great resignation and we've all been hearing 18 00:01:10,081 --> 00:01:13,920 this term they've been writing about it since it started in 2021, 19 00:01:13,940 --> 00:01:18,240 but I wanted to start off by just you talking a little bit about what what it is 20 00:01:18,241 --> 00:01:21,200 and what it means for everybody today. 21 00:01:21,790 --> 00:01:23,720 Well, thanks for having me on the show today. 22 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:29,160 The great resignation is really the term that is an umbrella term for what 23 00:01:29,161 --> 00:01:34,120 is the largest rewrite of the capital labor contract that 24 00:01:34,121 --> 00:01:36,120 we have seen in a century. 25 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:40,920 Now certainly we are seeing people leave jobs quitting, 26 00:01:40,921 --> 00:01:44,760 finding better jobs, sometimes going back to their original job, 27 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:49,880 but it's also a larger cultural change about what people are looking for in 28 00:01:49,881 --> 00:01:53,440 their jobs. And so we need to recognize this isn't just, well, 29 00:01:53,441 --> 00:01:55,840 we have to do a better job hiring or retaining. 30 00:01:56,010 --> 00:02:00,960 It is a shift in terms of what people want and companies need to adjust 31 00:02:00,961 --> 00:02:03,280 if they wanna stay competitive in the labor market. 32 00:02:03,750 --> 00:02:05,120 Yeah, it sounds like it, 33 00:02:05,401 --> 00:02:10,360 and it also sounds like companies really need to focus in on how 34 00:02:10,361 --> 00:02:11,680 do we keep employees as well? 35 00:02:11,681 --> 00:02:15,320 Because I'm sure during the pandemic employees were seeing, 36 00:02:15,450 --> 00:02:17,200 do I really still need to be here? 37 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:19,960 And that they started asking themselves a lot of questions. 38 00:02:20,950 --> 00:02:22,880 Well, that's a really good point. 39 00:02:22,881 --> 00:02:25,919 And you get different answers depending on who you ask. 40 00:02:26,389 --> 00:02:30,919 When it comes down to any job, it's really about the communication needed. 41 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:36,240 It's about who needs to communicate with whom and when and how best to 42 00:02:36,241 --> 00:02:40,600 do that. It's why we have emails, slack, phone calls, meetings, 43 00:02:40,601 --> 00:02:42,720 they're all channels of communicating, 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,120 whether it's project updates or you and I coordinating and coming up with ideas. 45 00:02:47,230 --> 00:02:48,840 That's what a lot of work is. 46 00:02:49,389 --> 00:02:53,880 What we found is that certain types of work can be done from home. 47 00:02:54,460 --> 00:02:56,290 We don't have to be sitting next to each other. 48 00:02:56,389 --> 00:03:00,240 And people have speculated about this for years. I work in technology. 49 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,320 We've certainly been on the forefront. 50 00:03:02,321 --> 00:03:05,160 I've been working with teams all around the world for years. 51 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:07,000 You can do some of that, 52 00:03:07,380 --> 00:03:12,160 but there are limitations to that and it seems like we might be 53 00:03:12,161 --> 00:03:16,600 overshooting a bit in that people don't understand. At first we said No, 54 00:03:16,601 --> 00:03:19,480 you'll have to be in the office five days a week. It's like, well, 55 00:03:19,481 --> 00:03:22,040 we know we can work when we're in the office zero days a week. 56 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:25,760 You can work in both modes, but is that optimal? 57 00:03:26,139 --> 00:03:30,480 And so there are different facets you need to look at to decide what is the 58 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,560 optimal number of days for a particular team at which points. 59 00:03:34,169 --> 00:03:34,661 Yeah, 60 00:03:34,661 --> 00:03:39,460 and it also seems like it's more than just money that people are leaving because 61 00:03:39,461 --> 00:03:42,540 of a lot of times people leave because of money or because of culture, 62 00:03:42,541 --> 00:03:43,341 or all those things. 63 00:03:43,341 --> 00:03:46,860 But you can't just throw more money at your employees and say, Okay, you know, 64 00:03:46,861 --> 00:03:47,690 stay here. 65 00:03:47,690 --> 00:03:51,340 That's exactly right. Money is a bit of a factor. 66 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,380 And as we record this at the start of the summer in 2022, 67 00:03:55,381 --> 00:03:59,940 we've been coming off some of the highest inflation rates that we've seen in a 68 00:03:59,941 --> 00:04:00,774 generation. 69 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,060 And so you do need more money to stay competitive and other companies are 70 00:04:05,061 --> 00:04:07,420 throwing money at them. But here's the thing, 71 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,500 you are probably not the highest payer in your market. One company is, 72 00:04:12,501 --> 00:04:15,940 and it probably isn't you. So if you're just competing on money, 73 00:04:16,010 --> 00:04:17,420 that's going to be a problem. 74 00:04:18,130 --> 00:04:22,500 What we saw is people are responding to these other dimensions, 75 00:04:22,501 --> 00:04:25,620 and this is what I meant when I said it's a rewrite of that capital labor 76 00:04:26,020 --> 00:04:28,820 contract. It's no longer I pay you money, you do the work. 77 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,620 And so we're seeing employees, particularly younger employees, 78 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,500 but we are seeing it across the spectrum. 79 00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:38,500 They're looking not just at money I'm using at Compensation General, 80 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:42,580 or there's stock options of salary, but also work life balance, 81 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:47,380 company culture, alignment to mission and support, 82 00:04:47,450 --> 00:04:48,620 just to name a few. 83 00:04:49,230 --> 00:04:53,420 We saw companies that back at the start of the pandemic in 2020, 84 00:04:53,650 --> 00:04:57,420 some of them said, look, it's tough for everyone. Suck it up and do it. 85 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,940 And other companies said, hey, it's tough for everyone, 86 00:05:01,150 --> 00:05:05,220 so we're going to give you Fridays off for the next two months because this is 87 00:05:05,221 --> 00:05:07,460 crazy. Spend some time with your families. 88 00:05:07,470 --> 00:05:12,180 We all need the stress break or what can we do to support you while you are at 89 00:05:12,181 --> 00:05:13,000 home? 90 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,380 And so the companies that were more supportive of their employees were the ones 91 00:05:17,381 --> 00:05:20,900 who basically had more loyalty and had employees say, 92 00:05:20,901 --> 00:05:23,820 I know you're looking out for me and are more likely to stay. 93 00:05:24,070 --> 00:05:28,940 So it's important that we really sell our employees current and 94 00:05:28,941 --> 00:05:32,980 future ones, not just on the compensation, but on all these other facets. 95 00:05:33,589 --> 00:05:35,180 So it what I'm hearing you say, 96 00:05:35,181 --> 00:05:40,020 it sounds like company culture is a huge part of avoiding the resignation, 97 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,940 but also, you know, when you, when new people are coming on, 98 00:05:43,941 --> 00:05:46,740 you wanna make sure that they fit that company culture to make sure that they're 99 00:05:46,741 --> 00:05:47,574 gonna stay on. 100 00:05:48,510 --> 00:05:51,740 Culture is very important. Now by culture, 101 00:05:52,210 --> 00:05:53,940 I think a lot of companies get this wrong. 102 00:05:54,010 --> 00:05:56,540 They think the culture is the seven values. 103 00:05:56,541 --> 00:06:01,279 Someone in marketing put on the website that says customer first or 104 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,880 whatever the mantra is. And I'm sure there is value to those, 105 00:06:06,660 --> 00:06:11,440 but the actual culture of your team might be at your company level. 106 00:06:11,441 --> 00:06:16,120 More likely it's at a team or department level is how you interact day to day. 107 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:19,920 For example, I have a colleague who told me at a former company, 108 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:23,800 the rule was whoever yelled loudest got their way in the meeting. 109 00:06:24,870 --> 00:06:29,279 I guarantee you marketing did not put that on the website. But when you show up, 110 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:30,520 that's how you have to behave. 111 00:06:30,521 --> 00:06:33,560 And if you're not the type of person who likes to yell and shout at a meeting, 112 00:06:33,589 --> 00:06:36,000 you're not going to be effective in that company. 113 00:06:36,420 --> 00:06:40,080 Now that's an extreme example and most people aren't saying, Okay, yeah, 114 00:06:40,081 --> 00:06:41,880 let's put yelling as a team value. 115 00:06:42,779 --> 00:06:47,760 But it is values such as are you expected to answer an email at 116 00:06:47,761 --> 00:06:50,160 11 at night at some companies? Yes you are. 117 00:06:50,161 --> 00:06:53,000 Some people are okay with that because you're paying me enough money. 118 00:06:53,001 --> 00:06:55,680 And I don't mind. Other companies say, no, 119 00:06:55,681 --> 00:06:59,520 we really don't expect you outside of work unless there's an emergency. 120 00:07:00,350 --> 00:07:03,400 It's things like how often you are expected to be in work. 121 00:07:04,029 --> 00:07:08,240 It's how much support they're going to give you. There are companies who say, 122 00:07:08,241 --> 00:07:10,240 we're here, we're gonna help you with your career. 123 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,240 We're going to help you plan out where you're going, we're going to develop you. 124 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:15,800 Other companies say, well, 125 00:07:15,801 --> 00:07:20,800 you're here because we're paying you and if you wanna be somewhere else or 126 00:07:20,801 --> 00:07:23,520 do some other job, well that doesn't help me, your boss, 127 00:07:23,570 --> 00:07:27,720 so why would I help you? And those are very different cultures. 128 00:07:27,721 --> 00:07:32,360 So you really wanna look at that almost tactical group-level culture in terms of 129 00:07:32,361 --> 00:07:35,000 how you operate the relationships, the trust, 130 00:07:35,001 --> 00:07:37,800 and the understanding with other people on your team. 131 00:07:38,890 --> 00:07:43,400 So we've been talking about like company cultures and how can best help it, 132 00:07:43,401 --> 00:07:48,400 but I can't help but think what if I'm somebody who left my company during 133 00:07:48,401 --> 00:07:51,520 the great resignation and I'm thinking, you know what? 134 00:07:51,521 --> 00:07:52,960 What should I be looking for? 135 00:07:52,961 --> 00:07:56,360 What questions maybe I should ask when I'm going into an interview, 136 00:07:56,361 --> 00:08:00,760 trying my next job that I want to avoid the culture I was just at and I wanna 137 00:08:00,761 --> 00:08:03,560 make sure that I'm going to the right culture going forward? 138 00:08:05,770 --> 00:08:06,980 That's a great question. 139 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:11,260 There are a number of categories of questions you want to ask. 140 00:08:11,261 --> 00:08:15,620 So let's look at a few of those. You want to ask about the culture, for example. 141 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,220 And you can ask questions like, 142 00:08:18,530 --> 00:08:21,860 what three words would you use to describe the company culture here? 143 00:08:22,370 --> 00:08:25,340 What traits do you value in team members? 144 00:08:26,130 --> 00:08:29,060 What personality types are a good fit for the company? 145 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:33,059 These type of questions are open-ended, there's no right or wrong answer, 146 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,140 but it can help you explore what's important, what those values are. 147 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,660 You can ask about management, ask to your potential new boss, 148 00:08:41,661 --> 00:08:44,020 what's your management style or approach? 149 00:08:44,179 --> 00:08:48,500 Obviously ask that of the subordinates as well because they might have a 150 00:08:48,501 --> 00:08:52,059 different perspective. How does the team resolve conflicts? 151 00:08:52,370 --> 00:08:54,179 Tell me about your feedback process. 152 00:08:55,601 --> 00:08:59,400 What was the biggest conflict that the team faced and how did they get through 153 00:08:59,401 --> 00:09:03,520 it? You can ask about the job itself. 154 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:06,559 What type of onboarding support do you have? 155 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:10,960 What would make someone successful in this road? Excuse me, 156 00:09:10,961 --> 00:09:13,000 what would make someone successful in this role? 157 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,040 Where will this job take me down the road? 158 00:09:16,860 --> 00:09:19,240 You can ask about engagement. 159 00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:24,640 How do you help grow your employees? What type of support does HR provide? 160 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:27,080 You can ask general questions. 161 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:29,240 What's the best thing about working at this company? 162 00:09:29,870 --> 00:09:32,240 What's the one thing you'd like to change about this company? 163 00:09:32,970 --> 00:09:35,309 How long do people tend to stay at this company? 164 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,910 So there's lots of different questions. And again, 165 00:09:37,911 --> 00:09:40,710 these are not right or wrong answer questions. 166 00:09:40,711 --> 00:09:43,910 They're questions that give you insight into the company. Now, 167 00:09:43,911 --> 00:09:47,030 two important things when you bring this up during the interview process, 168 00:09:47,031 --> 00:09:50,510 because it doesn't often come up. And these questions, by the way, 169 00:09:50,511 --> 00:09:54,710 are important to both sides. We're looking for a fit, 170 00:09:54,940 --> 00:09:59,190 a mutual fit. If you think about dating, it's kinda like asking the question, 171 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,030 do you want kids? There's no right or wrong answer, but if someone says, 172 00:10:03,031 --> 00:10:06,030 I want kids, and someone says, I don't, right there, you know, 173 00:10:06,031 --> 00:10:09,110 you two are not compatible and that's fine. No hard feelings. 174 00:10:09,111 --> 00:10:13,070 This is not good relationship. So same thing here. These are not 175 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,000 horrible things and there's no wrong answer, but you're looking, 176 00:10:18,001 --> 00:10:19,240 is there a fit on both sides? 177 00:10:19,610 --> 00:10:23,240 So both the hiring team and the candidate are interested in answering these 178 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,240 questions and either side can choose to bring this up. Now, 179 00:10:27,241 --> 00:10:28,320 if you're the candidate, 180 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,280 probably you're going to need to bring this up when you do so, 181 00:10:32,281 --> 00:10:33,640 obviously be respectful. 182 00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:38,720 You don't want to ask in an aggressive tone, in a challenging tone, 183 00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:43,440 you want to ask with a polite, respectful tone. The other thing, 184 00:10:43,441 --> 00:10:46,200 it can still be a little awkward to bring this up. 185 00:10:46,690 --> 00:10:51,360 So in the articles I've written about this, here's what I say, blame me. 186 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,920 You can say, listen, I heard this podcast, 187 00:10:54,921 --> 00:10:59,200 there was a guy named Mark Herschberg and he said we should go through these 188 00:10:59,400 --> 00:10:59,890 questions together. 189 00:10:59,890 --> 00:11:04,679 So I'd like to bring them up now because now you are not being annoying 190 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:06,000 and doing something a little unusual. 191 00:11:06,001 --> 00:11:09,920 Many companies aren't used to getting these questions. Instead you're saying, 192 00:11:09,921 --> 00:11:14,559 this is a recommended best practice I have heard of. And if they challenge it, 193 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:18,800 if they say, Oh, that's stupid. Well yeah, Mark Herschberg looks stupid, 194 00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:21,880 you don't look stupid. You can, you can dodge that blame. 195 00:11:22,010 --> 00:11:24,320 So it's gonna give you some protection and cover. 196 00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:26,440 So feel free to do that if you'd like. 197 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:30,200 But you definitely at some point want to bring up these questions and explore 198 00:11:30,201 --> 00:11:33,640 it. Otherwise, it's like going into that marriage without asking questions like, 199 00:11:33,641 --> 00:11:35,320 do you want kids? And where do you wanna live? 200 00:11:35,429 --> 00:11:38,160 You're probably going in blind and asking for trouble. 201 00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:40,080 That sounds like it. 202 00:11:40,081 --> 00:11:43,400 And we'll make sure we put a link to that article in the show notes so that 203 00:11:43,401 --> 00:11:47,080 everybody can take a look at that. So I, you know, I think those are, 204 00:11:47,081 --> 00:11:50,040 that's wonderful advice and I wish I'd had that advice many years ago, 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,720 the different interviews that I've been on, 206 00:11:51,721 --> 00:11:53,559 I would've loved to ask those questions. 207 00:11:54,179 --> 00:11:56,920 Are there red flags that people should be on the lookout for it? 208 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:58,960 Cause obviously when you're listening to those things, 209 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:01,600 you know what you don't wanna see in a company. 210 00:12:01,601 --> 00:12:03,720 You know what you're looking for, you know what you've been through. 211 00:12:03,740 --> 00:12:06,760 But are there certain red flags that if somebody answers one of those questions 212 00:12:06,761 --> 00:12:08,120 this way, run? 213 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,200 Certainly I'd say the yelling is red flag, at least for me. 214 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,160 Although then again, 215 00:12:15,309 --> 00:12:20,280 I hear stories about at least the old days in Wall Street where yelling 216 00:12:20,281 --> 00:12:22,080 and screaming and people throwing things, 217 00:12:22,110 --> 00:12:26,080 that's par for the course and certain people were attracted to that type of 218 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,480 super aggressive culture. It's really about what's a fit for you. 219 00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:32,679 Let's just take something simple, 220 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,120 asking a question like how many hours a week do you spend in meetings? 221 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:41,510 It's a question we don't ask. Now, there are many people who say, 222 00:12:41,511 --> 00:12:44,670 I hate meetings, I know I have to do a few of them. Okay, 223 00:12:44,671 --> 00:12:46,390 four hours a week in meetings, no problem. 224 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,710 If they hear 20 hours a week in meetings, oh my god, that can be soul crushing. 225 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:53,870 Probably not a fit for you. 226 00:12:53,871 --> 00:12:58,309 There are other people who actually love meetings and hey, 20 hours a week, 227 00:12:58,310 --> 00:13:02,110 bring it on. It's funny, we ask that with travel, that's a common question, 228 00:13:02,111 --> 00:13:06,190 What percentage of time is spent traveling? That's an acceptable question. 229 00:13:06,191 --> 00:13:11,150 But we never ask how much time in meetings or filling out paperwork 230 00:13:11,151 --> 00:13:12,590 depending on the nature of the role. 231 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,630 So it's really important to break down the different aspects and just find a 232 00:13:17,631 --> 00:13:21,630 fit. I don't think there's any universal red flags for the most part, 233 00:13:21,631 --> 00:13:23,309 but it's about what's right for you. 234 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,270 So you almost have to know your why and what you're looking for to be able to 235 00:13:27,271 --> 00:13:29,590 know what red flags you're looking for, in a sense. 236 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,990 It goes back to that dating analogy. If someone says, 237 00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:36,990 my idea of fun is camping and someone else says, 238 00:13:36,991 --> 00:13:41,309 my idea is dressing up and going to the opera, they're both valid answers, 239 00:13:41,570 --> 00:13:43,390 but they're probably not compatible. 240 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,910 So as we circle the conversation back to companies, 241 00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:51,630 how better can companies maybe engage their employees or get them involved so 242 00:13:51,631 --> 00:13:53,270 that they can avoid this in the future? 243 00:13:54,309 --> 00:13:59,230 There is a very simple tool that you can use that's gonna provide a number 244 00:13:59,231 --> 00:14:02,990 of benefits, including upskilling and engagement. Now, 245 00:14:02,991 --> 00:14:07,070 this is based on the 20 years of teaching that I've done at MIT, 246 00:14:07,071 --> 00:14:11,110 using techniques we use there as well as the technique used at top business 247 00:14:11,111 --> 00:14:15,510 schools. What you want to do is create peer learning groups. 248 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:20,790 It's similar to ERGs, but it's not based around some designation. 249 00:14:20,791 --> 00:14:24,790 It's not what you happen to be, it's about what you're trying to achieve. 250 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,870 So you can create general groups or you can create groups around specific skills 251 00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:32,030 and what you wanna do with these groups. 252 00:14:32,031 --> 00:14:34,710 I recommend groups of about six to eight people in size, 253 00:14:34,810 --> 00:14:39,670 but you can make them larger or smaller or go whatever way works for 254 00:14:39,671 --> 00:14:41,950 your team. And in these groups, 255 00:14:41,951 --> 00:14:45,990 which by the way can be done in person or remote or both, 256 00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:49,630 you want to focus on particular skills. Now, 257 00:14:49,631 --> 00:14:53,200 I particularly recommend some of what we call softer skills, 258 00:14:53,950 --> 00:14:57,600 leadership, communication, teamwork, negotiating. 259 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,760 Those are skills we don't focus on as much. 260 00:14:59,761 --> 00:15:02,440 But you can also focus on more technical skills, 261 00:15:02,441 --> 00:15:05,320 particularly accounting skills or tool skills. 262 00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:09,160 And what you wanna do in these groups is have folks come together, 263 00:15:09,790 --> 00:15:11,520 engage them with some content, 264 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:15,600 have them read a book or some articles, 265 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,280 watch a video online, 266 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:21,680 use a great podcast like this one because when they engage with the content and 267 00:15:21,681 --> 00:15:25,200 then go and have that discussion, that's where you get the richness. 268 00:15:25,201 --> 00:15:28,240 You're gonna listen to this podcast and you hear, oh yeah, important things, 269 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:29,041 great resignation. 270 00:15:29,041 --> 00:15:33,800 We have to think differently about how employees want to work with their 271 00:15:33,801 --> 00:15:37,840 companies. That's a start, but it's not the end of the conversation. 272 00:15:37,860 --> 00:15:39,760 And in having these small conversations, 273 00:15:39,940 --> 00:15:44,160 you start to go deeper into what these ideas are and what might work. 274 00:15:44,390 --> 00:15:47,680 Same thing with leadership. I can give you, here's three tips for leadership, 275 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:49,840 but it's not so cut and dry. 276 00:15:49,841 --> 00:15:54,240 It's not as simple as here's how to declare this asset on a balance sheet. 277 00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:57,400 It's very black and white. Leadership is not. 278 00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,080 And so it's understanding those subtleties and that's what happens in these 279 00:16:01,081 --> 00:16:03,120 groups. Now, if you do it, 280 00:16:03,390 --> 00:16:07,120 you're going to get four advantages. First, 281 00:16:07,121 --> 00:16:10,360 you are upskilling your employees, that's fantastic, 282 00:16:10,361 --> 00:16:13,160 you get better employees. Second, 283 00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:16,640 you're going to better engage your employees. You're saying, 284 00:16:16,641 --> 00:16:20,840 we're not just here to get work out of you. We care about developing you, 285 00:16:20,890 --> 00:16:24,920 we care about helping you. And it's no longer just compensating you with money, 286 00:16:24,921 --> 00:16:29,080 as we talked about before. They want to see this type of support. Third, 287 00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:33,800 you're increasing your internal networks. Really important, 288 00:16:33,801 --> 00:16:38,000 especially as we're in a hybrid workplace that we really focus on spending more 289 00:16:38,001 --> 00:16:41,000 time getting to know each other and relating to each other and building those 290 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,280 internal relationships. And fourth, 291 00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:48,360 you're creating a common language because if, for example, you pick the book, 292 00:16:51,140 --> 00:16:54,420 like you have the name if for example, you pick the book Good to Great, 293 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:56,380 they talk about the hedgehog model. 294 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,220 And if you use that book and everyone's read it, you can say, oh, 295 00:17:00,221 --> 00:17:01,700 well let's apply the hedgehog model. 296 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,100 Everyone knows exactly what you're talking about. 297 00:17:04,270 --> 00:17:08,619 So you have common stories and patterns that you can more easily apply. 298 00:17:09,150 --> 00:17:10,380 So if you want to do this, 299 00:17:10,381 --> 00:17:13,820 there's a free download on my website under the resources page, 300 00:17:13,821 --> 00:17:18,140 the Career Toolkit development program. You can use my book for it if you want, 301 00:17:18,141 --> 00:17:20,820 but again, if you don't wanna use my book, use a different book, 302 00:17:20,821 --> 00:17:22,060 use other free content, 303 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,100 and this is going to help engage and upskill your employees completely free. 304 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,530 That's great. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. 305 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:36,410 I really feel like that engagement is one of the key factors 306 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:40,690 of keeping your employees where they are, 307 00:17:40,830 --> 00:17:42,090 not necessarily where they are, 308 00:17:42,091 --> 00:17:45,770 but keeping your employees engaged in the company. They know the why, 309 00:17:45,771 --> 00:17:49,010 they're connected with their teammates, with people outside of their team. 310 00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:51,440 They can connect with the higher ups. 311 00:17:51,441 --> 00:17:55,359 It it's a way to kind of connect everybody because otherwise you, 312 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:59,119 especially while we're all at home or we're doing hybrid models and all those 313 00:17:59,120 --> 00:17:59,780 other things, 314 00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:03,960 you feel disconnected so much from people and that really feels like a way that 315 00:18:03,961 --> 00:18:06,400 it brings people together in a way that we haven't seen, 316 00:18:06,401 --> 00:18:08,880 especially during the Covid era. 317 00:18:09,570 --> 00:18:14,160 It does because it puts you together in discussions that aren't just about the 318 00:18:14,161 --> 00:18:18,240 monthly report that you're so tired of talking about because you did last month 319 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,119 and the month before that this engagement's also important because we are 320 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:26,680 getting into hybrid workplaces. It means the onboarding, 321 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:29,359 the time it takes for someone to get up to speed, 322 00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:30,920 not just on the technical aspects, 323 00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:34,920 but fitting into the team is often taking longer these days, 324 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,880 which means our existing employees are even more valuable because they 325 00:18:39,881 --> 00:18:43,800 have the established relationships and networks and we really want to keep them 326 00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:44,920 so we don't lose those. 327 00:18:45,570 --> 00:18:47,200 So Mark, if people wanna know more about this, 328 00:18:47,201 --> 00:18:48,680 where can they get in touch with you? 329 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:50,680 You can go to my website, 330 00:18:50,681 --> 00:18:52,640 the Career Toolkit book.com (https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com), 331 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:54,720 and there of course you can get in touch with me, 332 00:18:54,721 --> 00:18:56,320 learn more about the book I wrote, 333 00:18:56,619 --> 00:19:00,880 get the questions we mentioned or other free downloads on the resources page. 334 00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:05,119 All this is here to help you better engage and support your employees. 335 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,550 So Mark, as we wrap up the conversation, I just have to ask, 336 00:19:08,551 --> 00:19:10,190 is the great resignation over? 337 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,350 We have likely passed the peak, 338 00:19:13,730 --> 00:19:18,430 but there are going to be echoes for years to come and these echoes will come in 339 00:19:18,431 --> 00:19:19,264 different ways. 340 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:23,430 Some of it will be as companies work on their work from home policy, 341 00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:25,230 a company may say, 342 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,710 we want everyone back five days and they start losing employees. They say, Well, 343 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:32,550 we better switched to three days. Or they might try three days, 344 00:19:32,551 --> 00:19:34,990 realize that doesn't work and switch to five days, 345 00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:36,430 then lose people in the future. 346 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,510 So as we tweak policies in companies or industries, we're going to see echoes. 347 00:19:41,790 --> 00:19:46,790 We're also going to find that working very remotely and some companies have 348 00:19:46,791 --> 00:19:49,790 moved fully remote works in the short term, 349 00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:51,710 but there are long term implications. 350 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,750 We know people can mechanically do their work from home. 351 00:19:54,751 --> 00:19:56,109 We've been doing that for two years. 352 00:19:56,650 --> 00:19:59,670 But what about those relationships that they're trying to build? 353 00:19:59,670 --> 00:20:01,430 What about the long term strategy? 354 00:20:01,431 --> 00:20:06,390 What about thinking beyond the tactical day-to-day work we do that may 355 00:20:06,391 --> 00:20:09,950 not be as easy at some companies when people are primarily remote. 356 00:20:10,410 --> 00:20:15,210 And so they're gonna find this isn't quite working and we have to change up, 357 00:20:15,211 --> 00:20:17,970 which again, are going to cause echoes down the road. 358 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,170 Even things such as if you move to an island in the South 359 00:20:23,171 --> 00:20:25,850 Pacific and you do your work, you're getting it done. 360 00:20:25,851 --> 00:20:29,490 But if you're not showing up to the office in building relationships in your 361 00:20:29,930 --> 00:20:33,410 industry or in your company, that may hurt you in the future. 362 00:20:34,090 --> 00:20:38,090 We're even seeing potential DEI issues. And here's a really tricky one. 363 00:20:39,170 --> 00:20:43,090 We've heard people talk about if you don't set a standard policy, 364 00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:45,210 everyone has to do X days in the office. 365 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,119 What happens is women and certain underrepresented groups 366 00:20:50,430 --> 00:20:53,960 tend to do more work at home. They have more home responsibilities. 367 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:57,080 So if you make it flexible, they're in the office less, 368 00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:01,940 white males are in the office more. Well, who is more likely to get promoted? 369 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,340 Now we have a DEI problem. On the other hand, if you say, Well, 370 00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:11,180 everyone needs to be in the office three days a week. I've heard the complaint. 371 00:21:11,690 --> 00:21:14,780 Well now people who have more home responsibilities say, 372 00:21:14,781 --> 00:21:18,660 I don't want three days a week. I want two days a week. Who leaves your company? 373 00:21:19,210 --> 00:21:22,180 It's again, women and underrepresented groups. 374 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,500 Now you have a DEI problem again. 375 00:21:25,030 --> 00:21:29,420 So there's a lot of challenges and we don't know yet how they're going to play 376 00:21:29,421 --> 00:21:29,750 out. 377 00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:33,820 So I think we're going to continue to see some echoes of the great resignation 378 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,300 for many years to come. 379 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,130 This has been Count Me In, 380 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,570 IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from 381 00:21:44,571 --> 00:21:46,050 the accounting and finance profession. 382 00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:49,730 If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant 383 00:21:49,731 --> 00:21:52,650 accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at 384 00:21:52,651 --> 00:21:56,330 www.imanet.org.