1 00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:02,910 Welcome to the WSAVA podcast. 2 00:00:03,290 --> 00:00:08,670 This episode, From Genes To Traits, explores the fascinating journey from DNA 3 00:00:08,679 --> 00:00:13,340 to the features, behaviors, and health conditions we see in dogs and cats. 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,760 While you listen, ask yourself, 5 00:00:16,420 --> 00:00:19,810 how do the traits we value today shape the animals of tomorrow? 6 00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:26,240 This episode includes two conversations, Becky Murphy with Dan O'Neill, followed 7 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:29,210 by Yaiza Gómez-Mejías with Petra Černá. 8 00:00:29,219 --> 00:00:30,030 Let's get started. 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,389 How would you define breed in dogs? 10 00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:36,710 Where has it come from? 11 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:41,260 Breed is a human concept invented in the last 150 years. 12 00:00:41,690 --> 00:00:46,380 One of the myths for a lot of the public is that breeds exist in nature as 13 00:00:46,389 --> 00:00:48,129 something that have always been around. 14 00:00:48,589 --> 00:00:53,850 Dogs evolved maybe 10 million years ago and for the vast majority of 15 00:00:53,850 --> 00:00:56,200 their history, they've just been dogs. 16 00:00:56,390 --> 00:01:00,959 We've started inventing this concept called breed that really just came 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,110 into the fore in the late 1800s. 18 00:01:03,530 --> 00:01:09,270 There then was a mad scramble among humans to generate as many breeds as possible 19 00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:11,390 because there was money in it, there was 20 00:01:11,390 --> 00:01:16,630 status in it, there was kudos in it, there was prizes to be won at shows, so people 21 00:01:16,630 --> 00:01:23,530 went out actively selecting for mutations, diseases in dogs that were genetic and 22 00:01:23,530 --> 00:01:27,560 that they could breed into future generations and create new breeds. 23 00:01:27,820 --> 00:01:33,150 So we started pushing what was a typical dog over the last couple of hundred 24 00:01:33,150 --> 00:01:37,809 years into multiple different shapes and creating new entities called breeds. 25 00:01:38,179 --> 00:01:39,749 So breed really is a human concept. 26 00:01:39,750 --> 00:01:40,679 It's not biological. 27 00:01:40,929 --> 00:01:41,740 We can change it. 28 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:43,160 It's not set in nature. 29 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,460 We can reinvent them to make them healthy. 30 00:01:45,849 --> 00:01:49,563 I see the creation of breeds as being an interesting thing because we are fixing 31 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:53,470 traits such as temperament and behavior, or do we want them as a companion? 32 00:01:53,470 --> 00:01:54,690 Do we want them as a working dog? 33 00:01:54,690 --> 00:01:55,230 And so forth. 34 00:01:55,250 --> 00:01:58,319 So do you think that there's enough diversity out there to actually 35 00:01:58,950 --> 00:02:00,490 fix some of the issues that you 36 00:02:00,490 --> 00:02:01,859 see in some of the breeds? 37 00:02:02,969 --> 00:02:08,590 What a wonderful question because intrinsic in that question is the sense 38 00:02:08,590 --> 00:02:14,180 of falling back into the same mistake that we have made over the past hundred years. 39 00:02:14,380 --> 00:02:18,260 Humans breed French bulldogs with French bulldogs to create French bulldogs. 40 00:02:18,550 --> 00:02:21,159 We have over 800 different dog breeds. 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:22,799 They're all distinct. 42 00:02:23,090 --> 00:02:26,750 They're all recognizable by the public and we only allow 43 00:02:26,750 --> 00:02:27,989 them to breed with themselves. 44 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,019 There's loads of diversity. 45 00:02:29,180 --> 00:02:31,500 It just doesn't have to be within that breed. 46 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:37,090 We can bring in genetic diversity from other breeds and when you think about 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,390 it, every single one of the breeds we have today is a cross breed generated 48 00:02:41,390 --> 00:02:43,800 by crossing some previous dogs. 49 00:02:44,170 --> 00:02:47,360 Biology would say that we can and should be bringing in genes 50 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,550 externally into breeds if it's needed. 51 00:02:49,550 --> 00:02:55,130 As a veterinarian, we don't see people for pre-purchase consults. 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,159 They come to us with the puppy that they've already fallen in love with and 53 00:02:59,219 --> 00:03:03,540 we can look at it and think, crickey, this is going to be a lifetime of difficulty. 54 00:03:03,910 --> 00:03:09,380 So do you have any advice to veterinarians on that first puppy consult on how 55 00:03:09,380 --> 00:03:14,649 to actually approach the discussion of extreme conformation and what they 56 00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:16,400 can do moving forward from there? 57 00:03:17,010 --> 00:03:21,359 I moved from general practice in 2009 into the Royal Veterinary College in academia. 58 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:24,170 I thought once I had the evidence, within three or four years 59 00:03:24,170 --> 00:03:25,560 the world would react, right? 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:26,490 It has not happened. 61 00:03:26,630 --> 00:03:27,820 This is a long game. 62 00:03:27,820 --> 00:03:28,010 We 63 00:03:28,010 --> 00:03:33,739 have had a century of cultural brainwashing of humanity into 64 00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:36,150 believing extreme conformation is good. 65 00:03:36,730 --> 00:03:41,230 It will take many years to change the public zeitgeist to realize that 66 00:03:41,230 --> 00:03:43,570 extreme conformation is suffering. 67 00:03:43,710 --> 00:03:47,840 The vet profession has a huge role to play, but it really isn't all 68 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:49,849 down to that single point of contact. 69 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,430 When the puppy first arrives, it's too late for that puppy. 70 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,760 All the vets can do is try to provide the 71 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:59,020 best healthcare advice and direct healthcare to keep that puppy above 72 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:01,490 the cut point for a life worth living. 73 00:04:01,630 --> 00:04:03,109 Sometimes they'll go below that. 74 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:07,330 If they go below, that euthanasia has to be discussed, but the wider 75 00:04:07,330 --> 00:04:09,350 role of vets can still influence. 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:15,030 It is a long game, non-judgmental and empathic conversations with those 77 00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:19,440 owners may help them not get the next dog, which might be 5 years, 78 00:04:19,470 --> 00:04:22,850 10 years down the line, or maybe they're planning to get a second dog. 79 00:04:22,929 --> 00:04:27,169 So there is benefit in honest, empathic conversations from 80 00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:28,099 the client's point of view. 81 00:04:28,629 --> 00:04:31,799 The second thing we can do is speak as a profession. 82 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,580 Most practices have social media, so we can use that to educate clients 83 00:04:36,590 --> 00:04:38,450 hopefully before they get the dog. 84 00:04:38,650 --> 00:04:42,059 They're not going to pay for a consult in most situations, but they 85 00:04:42,059 --> 00:04:45,049 will see our social media messaging. 86 00:04:45,389 --> 00:04:49,720 Thirdly, we can help show owners by what we do. 87 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,830 Vets and vet professionals should think seriously about the animals they 88 00:04:53,830 --> 00:04:58,719 own and the message we give even by walking your dog through the park. 89 00:04:58,719 --> 00:05:03,600 I've learned humans have a wonderful way to deal with cognitive dissonance. 90 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,640 We can accept, if I own one a dog with extreme conformation, I can accept 91 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,240 that extreme conformation is really bad for the dog and the dog may well be 92 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,359 suffering, but I will reframe it in a certain way that means that it's okay. 93 00:05:15,679 --> 00:05:18,899 And that means I would say there's a lot worse Bulldogs, he's one of the 94 00:05:19,189 --> 00:05:23,220 better ones and he's got a little bit of a tail and he's a rescue. 95 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:26,910 I took him from a charity so it's all fine and I give him 96 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:28,280 lots of love, therefore it's 97 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:28,700 okay. 98 00:05:29,030 --> 00:05:32,750 And trying to get around that is to try and put some objective 99 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,500 measures that help the general public and the veterinary profession to 100 00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:37,919 understand extreme conformation. 101 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,619 There are still lots we can do, but unfortunately by the time 102 00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:45,020 the puppy arrives in the consult, it's too late for that puppy. 103 00:05:46,060 --> 00:05:46,720 Absolutely. 104 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:51,240 So that conformation versus inherited disease, I think of things like BOAS, 105 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:55,170 like IVDD, things that are a direct result of the conformation of the dog, 106 00:05:55,210 --> 00:05:59,299 the structure of the dog and then we've also got the inherited genetic diseases. 107 00:05:59,309 --> 00:06:03,070 So we are looking at things from simple mendelian traits, such as 108 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,390 some of the progressive retinal atrophy, the blindness, to some 109 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,890 more complex, multifactorial hip dysplasia that aren't necessarily 110 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:11,039 related to conformation. 111 00:06:11,050 --> 00:06:14,280 You go through the recommended tests for each breed, and it will 112 00:06:14,290 --> 00:06:18,760 list the DNA tests, the physical testing, the hips, the eyes, the 113 00:06:18,850 --> 00:06:20,780 respiratory function, and so forth. 114 00:06:21,150 --> 00:06:23,979 But we do often miss the point that they're 115 00:06:23,979 --> 00:06:26,590 only testing the inherited disease components of it. 116 00:06:26,590 --> 00:06:30,130 They're not necessarily looking at the conformational problems related 117 00:06:30,130 --> 00:06:33,429 to it, because we probably don't have a test for those things specifically. 118 00:06:34,029 --> 00:06:38,840 What advice can you give to veterinarians when trying to consider those two 119 00:06:39,170 --> 00:06:43,440 issues as being reasonably distinct, but also having some similarities as well? 120 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,150 How would you suggest that vets try and view them? 121 00:06:48,380 --> 00:06:51,789 I have a very contrarian approach, which means I disagree with 122 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:55,870 everything, absolutely everything, until I've really tried to attack it. 123 00:06:56,270 --> 00:06:59,740 It's like pinata, I'll try and get whatever the concepts are, beat the living 124 00:06:59,740 --> 00:07:02,349 daylights outta them and if I can't get the sweeties, I'll 125 00:07:02,349 --> 00:07:03,520 accept the donkey exists. 126 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:07,060 I disagree intrinsically with the whole inherited disease concept. 127 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,140 My PhD was called 'Acquired And Inherited Diseases In Dogs And Cats.' It, it 128 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:14,180 covers everything in two species, right? 129 00:07:14,180 --> 00:07:18,650 It took me about six months to realize that every single disease in dogs and 130 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:20,630 cats is inherited, every single one. 131 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:24,510 You might say, if a dog is hit by a car, that's an accident. 132 00:07:24,530 --> 00:07:26,469 It absolutely is not. 133 00:07:26,860 --> 00:07:29,489 It is an inherited disease, and we've published papers on 134 00:07:29,490 --> 00:07:29,710 this. 135 00:07:30,010 --> 00:07:33,069 Certain breeds are more likely to be hit by car, maybe because the people 136 00:07:33,229 --> 00:07:37,320 who own those dogs choose them and keep them inside because the dogs have 137 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,680 less recall and maybe because the dogs have a greater tendency to wonder, 138 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,880 all of those factors are inherited. 139 00:07:44,389 --> 00:07:49,329 So every disease has an inherited and non inherited component. 140 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:50,030 So the first 141 00:07:50,030 --> 00:07:53,730 thing is I disagree with boxing off disorders as inherited or not inherited. 142 00:07:53,850 --> 00:07:54,670 They're all inherited. 143 00:07:55,390 --> 00:07:59,030 Second thing is that I started this podcast with you by chatting about 144 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,110 breeds and that we invented breeds. 145 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,190 The only way that we could invent breeds and keep the future generations 146 00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:10,430 looking like the previous generation is if breed itself is inherited. 147 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:15,480 So we breed two French bulldogs, they're not going to give birth to a Jack Russell 148 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,630 puppy, they're going to give birth to a French bulldog puppy or something that we 149 00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:20,310 define as looking like a French bulldog. 150 00:08:20,969 --> 00:08:25,630 If that puppy itself, because of its conformation, is associated 151 00:08:25,630 --> 00:08:29,680 with severe health issues, those are inherited diseases. 152 00:08:29,870 --> 00:08:35,539 The sad thing with that is that the world accepts standard diseases 153 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,389 like diabetes and cancer and osteoarthritis is a bad thing. 154 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,059 Everyone disagrees, it's a bad thing. 155 00:08:41,419 --> 00:08:47,150 When it comes to conformational disease, we have humans actively desiring to 156 00:08:47,190 --> 00:08:51,799 own animals with conformational disease and that's why as veterinary surgeons, 157 00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:56,560 we have a really important role in trying to explain to the public that 158 00:08:56,870 --> 00:09:02,120 brachycephaly, inflexible spines and skin folds are every much as a disease as 159 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,300 diabetes or some of the other examples. 160 00:09:04,740 --> 00:09:09,170 And that's why I said we've slipped into a century of getting it wrong as a 161 00:09:09,170 --> 00:09:11,240 veterinary profession and as humanity. 162 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,760 We have a long way to go but we do need to start that conversation and 163 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:21,180 groups like the WSAVA Inherited Disease Group can play a key role in starting 164 00:09:21,180 --> 00:09:23,330 to break the old way of thinking. 165 00:09:23,630 --> 00:09:27,085 We are the veterinary profession, if animals can't rely on us 166 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:28,930 to stand up for them, who 167 00:09:28,930 --> 00:09:29,800 can they rely on? 168 00:09:30,110 --> 00:09:30,360 Yeah. 169 00:09:30,380 --> 00:09:31,630 And I absolutely agree. 170 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,680 Is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted to wrap it up with? 171 00:09:35,609 --> 00:09:37,630 Let's deal with the outcrossing issue. 172 00:09:37,630 --> 00:09:42,140 So outcrossing is another one of these generic holistic terms, but I 173 00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:45,980 often feel that they're not helpful as a broad term because for certain 174 00:09:45,980 --> 00:09:48,229 communities, outcrossing is taboo. 175 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,800 So certain breed communities and people that have been breeding over 176 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:57,180 the past 50 years, when outcrossing was not allowed, obviously it is now 177 00:09:57,180 --> 00:10:01,130 starting to be allowed, but it's hard for people to change their mindset. 178 00:10:01,380 --> 00:10:05,370 So outcrossing is a term that, that probably should be used carefully and we 179 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:07,440 should be using it in a qualified way. 180 00:10:07,610 --> 00:10:11,869 Outcrossing could mean within a breed, crossing between a working 181 00:10:11,889 --> 00:10:16,170 line and a shoreline, and that may be acceptable to some breed communities. 182 00:10:17,090 --> 00:10:17,130 Outcrossing 183 00:10:17,180 --> 00:10:21,270 could mean that we're, let's say we're in the UK, Becky, you're in New Zealand, 184 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,690 that we're crossing between breed lines within the UK, breed lines within 185 00:10:25,690 --> 00:10:29,160 New Zealand, that may have diverged, may genetically be different, make 186 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:30,310 conformation be different. 187 00:10:30,610 --> 00:10:33,660 Those are ways to introduce new genetic diversity. 188 00:10:34,430 --> 00:10:39,230 Outcrossing can also mean going outside the breed, crossing with another breed, 189 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:43,730 and then back crossing with the original breed trying to recreate the original one. 190 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:47,409 That was done, let's say, with Dalmatians where they had their 191 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:48,749 uric acid problem, they were 192 00:10:48,749 --> 00:10:53,530 outcrossed with a Pointer and then after several generations crossing back with 193 00:10:53,530 --> 00:10:57,270 dalmatians, you have dogs that look identical to the original Dalmatians, 194 00:10:57,420 --> 00:10:59,140 but without the uric acid problem. 195 00:10:59,590 --> 00:11:03,070 Outcrossing can be designed for genetic diversity issues but 196 00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:04,789 also for conformational issues. 197 00:11:04,959 --> 00:11:09,950 So we can outcross, let's say English bulldogs or French bulldogs with other 198 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,980 breeds or lines, or with variants from other countries to reshape how they look. 199 00:11:15,389 --> 00:11:18,640 So with the Dalmatian example, the idea was to get it back 200 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:20,120 to how it looked originally. 201 00:11:20,469 --> 00:11:23,790 With the French Bulldogs, if we're following innate health, we're trying to 202 00:11:23,790 --> 00:11:28,610 breed French bulldogs with long noses, tails, flexible spines, no skin folds. 203 00:11:28,750 --> 00:11:30,790 So we're trying to breed a healthy French bulldog. 204 00:11:30,979 --> 00:11:35,940 Less about genetic diversity and more about actively changing how the dog looks. 205 00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:37,760 It's outcrossing to improve genetic 206 00:11:37,809 --> 00:11:38,369 diversity. 207 00:11:38,569 --> 00:11:43,100 It's outcrossing to move conformation towards less extreme, or in fact it 208 00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:47,910 should be towards a moderate conformation and then you can define how you do it. 209 00:11:48,290 --> 00:11:48,650 So 210 00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:53,330 almost when we're using outcrossing as a broad term, it's too broad, it's too 211 00:11:53,330 --> 00:11:58,720 non-specific and probably isn't helpful unless qualified by more information. 212 00:11:59,990 --> 00:12:00,300 Yeah. 213 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,030 People like the breed types, don't they? 214 00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:04,790 There are banned breeds around the world. 215 00:12:04,950 --> 00:12:07,050 In New Zealand, we have five or six. 216 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:12,659 The, the whole concept of banning or as we call it, retiring different breeds, do 217 00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:14,285 you think that's a concept that will work? 218 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,569 Or do you think that outcrossing whatever variation, it will 219 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,560 be more successful over time? 220 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,030 Banning or retiring breeds doesn't seem to work. 221 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,620 It's a really good question because these are policies tried in 222 00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:28,190 different places at different times. 223 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:30,080 The issue is humans. 224 00:12:30,130 --> 00:12:31,529 The issue isn't biology. 225 00:12:31,530 --> 00:12:32,490 The issue is humans. 226 00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:35,370 I personally don't feel that banning breeds help. 227 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:36,099 Breeds 228 00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:38,380 don't exist, going back to my very original comment, 229 00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:40,069 they don't exist in nature. 230 00:12:40,620 --> 00:12:45,819 The issue is the conformation, and I feel it is much, much better and it will be 231 00:12:45,820 --> 00:12:49,800 socially more acceptable if we approach it from a conformation point of view. 232 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:52,280 The public don't like breeds being banned. 233 00:12:52,469 --> 00:12:56,939 In the UK we had an XL bully ban because there was a high rate of people 234 00:12:56,950 --> 00:13:01,320 being killed by that breed, and it has been hugely problematic over the last 235 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,720 two or three years, both from a human social point of view, but also a legal 236 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,099 point of view trying to enforce it and even the big organizations, welfare 237 00:13:09,209 --> 00:13:12,920 organizations, disagreeing with each other as to whether a ban is good or bad. 238 00:13:13,470 --> 00:13:18,980 But nobody will disagree with moving away from extreme conformation because 239 00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:23,589 extreme conformation by definition equates the suffering, either 240 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:25,850 current and or future suffering. 241 00:13:25,969 --> 00:13:30,389 We should go with the line of least resistance and most gain. 242 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:30,920 That's 243 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:32,380 conformation. 244 00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:33,140 It's really interesting. 245 00:13:33,170 --> 00:13:36,800 What is one message that you'd like to take away from this podcast in terms of 246 00:13:36,810 --> 00:13:40,090 their role in safeguarding canine welfare? 247 00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:44,190 From a veterinary point of view, the big message is that breed 248 00:13:44,330 --> 00:13:46,009 is flexible and can change. 249 00:13:46,219 --> 00:13:48,080 It's a human invented concept. 250 00:13:48,370 --> 00:13:53,600 Change, ideally should be within the domains that we physically, as humans, 251 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,370 can change without necessarily doing lots of tests and lots of expense. 252 00:13:57,429 --> 00:14:01,470 They've allowed the pedigree dog brand to be tarnished by the extreme 253 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:06,130 conformation conversation, and it is a huge issue, but it's the minority. 254 00:14:06,139 --> 00:14:07,870 It's less than 50% of the breeds. 255 00:14:07,870 --> 00:14:12,350 It's probably only 10 to 15% of the breeds and basically we have 256 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:16,520 not started to celebrate the breeds that are physically healthy. 257 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,510 We keep looking at the ones that are extreme. 258 00:14:18,719 --> 00:14:19,749 There are lots of breeds. 259 00:14:19,799 --> 00:14:23,790 Labrador, Schnauzers, Greyhounds, Whippets, there are lots of breeds 260 00:14:23,949 --> 00:14:27,520 that actually innately are pretty good. 261 00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:30,845 Even though we have invented them as humans, we haven't actually got it 262 00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:33,129 that wrong in a lot of those breeds. 263 00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:37,370 So from a vet's point of view, we can celebrate the good breeds and instead 264 00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:42,510 of constantly maybe having to bad mouth or talk down the bad breeds, we can just 265 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,459 promote the good breeds, innately healthy breeds, and encourage owners to get them. 266 00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:49,010 Be positive in our messaging on social media. 267 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,170 Be positive at an organizational point of view. 268 00:14:51,389 --> 00:14:57,770 For extreme breeds, as a profession, we can say your option is a moderate 269 00:14:57,770 --> 00:14:59,930 version of a French bull dog with a tail. 270 00:15:00,299 --> 00:15:05,060 Currently in the UK, within the pedigree community, for example, the ones that 271 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:08,759 happen to be born with tails tend to be neutered because they're, I'm 272 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,109 using inverted commas, they're wrong. 273 00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:12,140 We're fighting against nature. 274 00:15:12,179 --> 00:15:16,100 If you give nature a chance, nature will regress to an innately healthy dog. 275 00:15:16,309 --> 00:15:19,420 If you, not that I'm advocating everybody gets a street dog, but if 276 00:15:19,420 --> 00:15:23,180 you look at street dogs, they look the same long tail and a long nose 277 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:26,929 and flat skin, and their eyes sit in and their leg proportion is correct. 278 00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:29,739 That's what nature will regress to, and it'll do it within 279 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:31,000 two or three generations. 280 00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:36,779 So vets can be positive, non-judgmental, empathic about getting innately 281 00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:40,870 healthy breeds and then within the breeds that have severe 282 00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:41,750 issues with extreme conformation. 283 00:15:43,050 --> 00:15:47,120 Again, without judgment, we can say yes if you want to buy that breed, 284 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,820 move towards the healthy versions, and we can do that and within a couple 285 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:52,130 of generations, that can be done 286 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:59,469 After Becky Murphy's discussion with Dan O'Neill, the conversation continues 287 00:15:59,470 --> 00:16:01,360 as Yaiza is joined by Petra Černá. 288 00:16:04,059 --> 00:16:08,150 Before any planned mating, vets can perform several types of exams to 289 00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:12,300 identify potential health issues and prevent hereditary diseases from 290 00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:14,110 being passed on to the offspring. 291 00:16:14,690 --> 00:16:17,910 These assessments generally fall into three main categories, 292 00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:20,260 clinical, phenotypic, and genetic. 293 00:16:20,780 --> 00:16:23,310 Genetic screening was discussed in previous episodes. 294 00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:27,140 Now, following Dan and Becky´s conversation on how to move towards 295 00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:30,810 healthier breeds, we´ll explore how veterinarians can help ensure 296 00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:34,420 that breeding cats are fit for reproduction, through phenotypic 297 00:16:34,829 --> 00:16:36,490 exams and clinical screening. 298 00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:41,499 Clinical exams focus on the animal’s overall health and function, whereas 299 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,505 Phenotypic exams assess the observable traits, what we can actually see. 300 00:16:44,505 --> 00:16:44,829 These include features such as 301 00:16:47,239 --> 00:16:52,270 coat colour, body size, ear and tail shape, conformation, and structural 302 00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:59,010 soundness, such as healthy hips or a heart free of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy [HCM], 303 00:16:59,170 --> 00:17:01,790 the most common cardiomyopathy in cats. 304 00:17:02,770 --> 00:17:06,300 When we hear the word screening in a health context, we generally think 305 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:10,530 of tests and what type of tests does phenotypic screening involve? 306 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,829 When we look at phenotypic features in pedigree cat, we actually do not 307 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,190 have tests for absolutely everything. 308 00:17:18,250 --> 00:17:24,059 So one of the tests we would look at, for example, would be doing an echocardiogram 309 00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:27,980 for HCM in cat or radiographs to 310 00:17:28,010 --> 00:17:33,830 assess for hip dysplasia in cat but there are a lot of phenotypic features, 311 00:17:33,849 --> 00:17:39,110 bigger ears, for example, and these are things you just can't really test for. 312 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,930 So I think these are very often things where we have to use some common sense 313 00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:50,950 and just really make sure that the cats we are using for breeding are healthy 314 00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:53,100 cats that have good quality of life. 315 00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:57,150 So heart ultrasound, radiography. 316 00:17:57,150 --> 00:18:01,400 Just from the physical examination, we can gather some useful information as well. 317 00:18:01,690 --> 00:18:05,510 And compared to genetic screening, what are the strengths and limitations 318 00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:07,810 of this type of phenotypic screening? 319 00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:12,639 So I think one of the strengths with  phenotypic screening is 320 00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:17,370 that we do not need to have a known gene for that condition. 321 00:18:17,469 --> 00:18:23,030 But I think one of the biggest limitations will be that these are things where 322 00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:29,460 we cannot just do a simple swab or saliva collection to get results. 323 00:18:29,469 --> 00:18:35,559 So big, probably limitation will be access to care because not every person 324 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,239 is in the same kind of location, and then there will be a difference in which 325 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,580 people can access what type of testing. 326 00:18:43,970 --> 00:18:48,810 So I feel very lucky and privileged living in the United States, working 327 00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:54,800 at the huge university, and really having an access to any possible 328 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,760 test that exists in the world. 329 00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:02,110 This will not be true for people that live in other places in the world. 330 00:19:02,110 --> 00:19:04,830 So this definitely could be a challenge. 331 00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:09,470 And then I think another big limitation is interpretation of these tests because 332 00:19:10,219 --> 00:19:14,159 it's great when we know this is the gene and then we do that genetic test, 333 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:20,360 but I think analyzing or interpreting genetic testing can be much easier. 334 00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:23,020 The cost can also be challenging. 335 00:19:23,059 --> 00:19:28,639 So you know, repeating echocardiograms annually can definitely be quite 336 00:19:28,639 --> 00:19:33,070 an expensive cost, even if you have access to board certified cardiology. 337 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:37,669 So unfortunately, when it come to phenotypic screening, a lot 338 00:19:37,670 --> 00:19:40,320 of the things are very limited. 339 00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:45,440 What advice would you give to those general practitioners that are 340 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,379 willing to do screening, but they lack of the confidence to interpret 341 00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:54,040 some tests like heart ultrasound or perhaps they don't feel confident in 342 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,000 interpreting a, a hip x-ray in a cat? 343 00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:03,530 Interpreting feline hip radiographs can definitely be much more challenging 344 00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:08,220 than in dogs because of course, cats are not small dogs and their hips 345 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:12,010 will look very different even when they're healthy compared to dogs. 346 00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:16,060 So what I would strongly recommend that before you even sedate the cat 347 00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:21,109 for radiographs, you actually check either the PawPeds or OFA website. 348 00:20:21,530 --> 00:20:26,440 Look for guidance because you can send the radiographs for assessment to 349 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:32,049 either PawPeds or OFA, and those can be read out by specialists who are very 350 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,800 comfortable with grading feline hips. 351 00:20:35,230 --> 00:20:38,310 But I think it's very important that we would have a good 352 00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:40,229 quality radiographs for this. 353 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:44,456 Our biggest challenge here is that if those radiographs are not 354 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,290 good enough quality, then nobody will want to actually assess them. 355 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,020 So before you spend the client's money, before you sedate those cats and put 356 00:20:53,020 --> 00:20:57,200 them through all of this, maybe just do a little bit of research on those websites. 357 00:20:57,490 --> 00:21:02,680 If you are not sure, you can reach out to them or some orthopedic specialist 358 00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:07,010 or some of your colleagues who have experience with this and just get some 359 00:21:07,010 --> 00:21:12,250 guidelines on what radiographs you exactly need, how the cat should be positioned. 360 00:21:12,550 --> 00:21:16,069 I definitely recommend doing some research on this topic. 361 00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:18,989 That's great advice, thank you. 362 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:23,610 When it comes to more hidden things like cardiac disease or hip dysplasia, 363 00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:27,200 at what age do you start talking to the owners about testing for this? 364 00:21:27,650 --> 00:21:33,239 I think it very much depends if the kitten is completely subclinical and they just 365 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,130 want to use the cat for breeding, once the cat reaches that age of about 12 months. 366 00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:43,730 For echocardiograms, I usually recommend that, especially in those breeds that are 367 00:21:43,730 --> 00:21:49,669 predisposed to HCM and we have no genetic testings available, such as British Short 368 00:21:49,670 --> 00:21:52,310 Hairs, Persians, and exotics, for example. 369 00:21:52,619 --> 00:21:57,889 But those breeds like Rag Dolls and Maine Coons that are predisposed to HCM, we know 370 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:00,370 only about the one gene that is available. 371 00:22:00,370 --> 00:22:05,960 So the cats could still get probably HCM even when they do not carry that mutation. 372 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:11,179 So I would strongly recommend getting a first echocardiogram before the mating. 373 00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:14,660 So, and around that 10 to 12 months of age. 374 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:18,699 So we know the heart is normal before they go on. 375 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:24,840 But the biggest issue with phenotypic screening is that especially with heart 376 00:22:24,860 --> 00:22:26,850 disease, things can really change. 377 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,649 So then we recommend screening ideally annually or at least 378 00:22:31,660 --> 00:22:33,680 every other year for these cats. 379 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,040 For hip dysplasia, this is a little bit more challenging. 380 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:42,400 I've seen horrible hip dysplasia in kittens as young as about five, six 381 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,620 months, so it can start very early. 382 00:22:45,089 --> 00:22:49,900 Again we would want to make sure we get clear hip radiographs without severe 383 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:55,410 hip dysplasia before the first mating, but some breeds like Maine Coons, they 384 00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:57,385 really can take a long time to develop. 385 00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:01,350 So ideally we would do those radiographs again around 12 to 386 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:06,019 14 months, but some cats might already need to be mated by then. 387 00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:10,550 So if we had done them in younger cats before the first mating, we might want to 388 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,750 consider repeating those in the future. 389 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:16,779 Would you still perform heart scans in those cats that have 390 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:18,599 been through the genetic testing? 391 00:23:19,670 --> 00:23:20,410 Absolutely. 392 00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:26,630 At the moment we still dunno enough about the HCM in cats, and I think even though 393 00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:31,460 they do not carry that one mutation, we know that of course those cats could 394 00:23:31,460 --> 00:23:33,589 potentially still develop heart disease. 395 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:36,990 It's less likely but there is still a chance because there could 396 00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:39,020 be other mutations causing that. 397 00:23:39,049 --> 00:23:46,570 I think until we have a more idea on actually how these genes show in terms 398 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,250 of what age they would show the disease at, I really would recommend before 399 00:23:51,270 --> 00:23:54,060 any mating that we screen these cats. 400 00:23:54,630 --> 00:24:00,239 You are forever responsible for what you have tamed, and I do believe that we are 401 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,830 responsible for the kittens we breed. 402 00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:07,750 So if you wanna be a cat breeder, you really should do your very best to make 403 00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:09,650 sure you are breeding healthy kittens. 404 00:24:10,910 --> 00:24:15,280 How can phenotypic screening them help differentiate between inherited disorders 405 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,829 and non inherited conditions in cats? 406 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:24,130 I always think that there are a lot of conditions in cats that they might 407 00:24:24,130 --> 00:24:29,050 not be fully inherited, at least in that way, that they would show in the 408 00:24:29,059 --> 00:24:31,019 parents and then show in the offspring. 409 00:24:31,030 --> 00:24:33,500 Some of these can skip generations, right? 410 00:24:33,509 --> 00:24:38,640 Especially when it comes to hip dysplasia, heart disease, so the fact that the 411 00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:42,870 parents have been screened doesn't mean that the kitten will not have it. 412 00:24:42,910 --> 00:24:46,440 There is definitely this environmental factors and 413 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,759 genetic factors to hip dysplasia. 414 00:24:49,030 --> 00:24:53,549 There's probably some incomplete penetrance, or the hereditary 415 00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:56,760 conditions of the hip dysplasia are not a hundred percent clear. 416 00:24:56,770 --> 00:25:02,640 For the hip dysplasia the phenotypic screening really needs to be done in the 417 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,550 parents, but also even in the offsprings. 418 00:25:04,830 --> 00:25:09,879 I wish everything was as simple as the recessive or dominant traits because 419 00:25:09,889 --> 00:25:14,210 then we know that if my cat does not carry the mutation, I know I don't 420 00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:18,260 have to continue testing all of the offsprings because there's no way when 421 00:25:18,260 --> 00:25:22,929 it comes to phenotypic traits, this definitely is a much bigger challenge 422 00:25:28,209 --> 00:25:29,509 test for at the moment. 423 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:33,057 I think maybe someday we'll have a easier way than just test for at the moment. 424 00:25:33,057 --> 00:25:35,410 I think maybe someday we'll have a easier way than just doing a CT of the skull 425 00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:39,490 on these cats and deciding which ones maybe could be used in mating or not. 426 00:25:39,490 --> 00:25:43,139 But I think just looking on a physical exam in those 427 00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:47,199 cats and making sure that the cat doesn't have too narrow nostrils. 428 00:25:47,199 --> 00:25:52,190 So BOAS is, in my opinion, a little bit simpler probably in cats than 429 00:25:52,190 --> 00:25:55,959 in dogs because most of it we can see actually externally, right? 430 00:25:55,980 --> 00:26:00,269 So I do not have to put the cat, like I have to do with the dog, under 431 00:26:00,270 --> 00:26:03,350 general anesthesia, really check the soft palette and all of that. 432 00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:08,330 Most of it I really can see on my just basic physical exams. 433 00:26:08,330 --> 00:26:13,040 So talking to the clients when the cat has too narrow nostrils, that this really 434 00:26:13,050 --> 00:26:18,189 should not be a cat that should be used for mating or if they have a chronic 435 00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:22,259 ocular or dental issues, because we know there is a lot of overcrowding of 436 00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:24,250 the teeth in these brachycephalic cats. 437 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,669 And just discussing all of these conditions and external kind of things 438 00:26:29,670 --> 00:26:33,670 we do see in these brachycephalic cats and making sure that people try 439 00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:35,619 not to using these cats for breeding. 440 00:26:37,309 --> 00:26:40,220 So, yeah, even if you weren't sure that the trait you've got in 441 00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:45,729 front of you is not inherited or is inherited, would you encourage 442 00:26:45,730 --> 00:26:47,649 the person not to breed from the cat? 443 00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:48,810 Absolutely. 444 00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:52,680 I think a brachycephalic cat that struggles to breathe on its own, it's 445 00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:57,390 probably really not a cat that should be put through the stress of pregnancy 446 00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:03,240 and having kittens and until we know little bit more how brachycephalism is 447 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:08,100 inherited and how it develops, there is plenty of cats out there everywhere. 448 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:14,160 So really breeding cats that have some defect that really is severely 449 00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:19,000 affecting their quality of life and health and welfare is a huge problem. 450 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:24,100 So we really should not be using those cats in mating and just generally 451 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:29,339 supporting the breeding of these cats that are struggling with health and welfare. 452 00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:32,570 So I do love all the cats in the world. 453 00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:37,560 Anytime I see a cat suffer, it is causing me severe stress and breaks my heart. 454 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,540 So I definitely do not want to see any cat out there suffer and 455 00:27:42,540 --> 00:27:46,330 we already have enough diseases that cats can just get as they age. 456 00:27:46,330 --> 00:27:51,580 So why would I already breed a kitten that will struggle for the rest of its life? 457 00:27:52,650 --> 00:27:57,010 You are a judge as well at breeding shows, but you've been judged as 458 00:27:57,010 --> 00:27:58,470 well because of being a breeder. 459 00:27:58,790 --> 00:28:01,010 And what tips would you advise? 460 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,619 Because we have this tension in clinical practice where as general practitioners, 461 00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:10,079 we feel frustrated about not being able to do anything about this whole cascade 462 00:28:10,090 --> 00:28:15,240 of events that come from this systemic problem of a society that breeds abnormal 463 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,100 cats and that we are shaping the body of these species and up to an extent that 464 00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:23,130 sometimes these shapes wouldn't enable them to survive in a natural environment. 465 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,720 So I understand where the frustration comes from, but at the same time, 466 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,409 we need to collaborate with other groups and professional groups 467 00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:31,419 and non-professional groups. 468 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,610 What would be your main advice when it comes to communicating with 469 00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:40,239 the people who may not be aware of the severity of these traits? 470 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:46,739 I always try to presume that when people have cats or breed cats it's because 471 00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:50,170 they do it because they really care about the cats and they love the cats. 472 00:28:50,650 --> 00:28:54,380 We definitely have those backyard breeders where they could be 473 00:28:54,380 --> 00:28:56,700 doing it for financial gain. 474 00:28:56,730 --> 00:28:59,330 In 20 years I've been breeding cats. 475 00:28:59,330 --> 00:29:02,480 I've never made a single penny, with actually every litter I 476 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,840 feel like I lose money and it's a very expensive hobby to keep. 477 00:29:07,180 --> 00:29:12,050 So I would always try to presume that people do what they do because they love 478 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,310 cats and they care about cats deeply. 479 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,000 Very often I come across the fact that people just don't know any better. 480 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,600 So when we know better, I feel like we do better. 481 00:29:22,619 --> 00:29:28,580 So I try positively educating the clients, trying to really tell them and 482 00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:34,500 explain them that what they didn't know is really important and that this cat 483 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:37,610 really has an impacted quality of life. 484 00:29:37,639 --> 00:29:41,629 And then health and welfare of the cat is of course, an issue because as 485 00:29:42,229 --> 00:29:47,770 a veterinarian, but also as a breeder and as a person that loves animals, 486 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,049 and the cats, of course, very deeply, those creatures cannot speak for 487 00:29:53,050 --> 00:29:55,399 themself, and we are their advocates. 488 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:01,740 We are very much responsible for raising those health and welfare concerns because 489 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,190 those animals cannot do it themselves. 490 00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:10,320 So I do really believe when I see a cat welfare or health being impacted, 491 00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:12,030 I really need to say something. 492 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,200 Otherwise I cannot be able to sleep with myself at night. 493 00:30:15,910 --> 00:30:22,080 Sometimes I definitely gain unpopularity, but I don't do what I do to be popular. 494 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,253 I do what I do because I believe in it, and I do believe that it 495 00:30:26,253 --> 00:30:30,309 is my responsibility to raise those concerns when I have them. 496 00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:33,710 And so this is what I would recommend to people as well. 497 00:30:33,710 --> 00:30:40,080 Try being positive about it and of course then you work with breeders, making sure 498 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,760 that when you are raising those concerns, that you're trying to educate them. 499 00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:49,360 Because I, again, most of the times they just don't know this is a problem and 500 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,299 when you educate them positively about it, they're much more likely to make a 501 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,560 change than when you are very negative and you feel like you are judging them 502 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,139 because I feel like that's really not going to lead to any change at all. 503 00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:04,119 Thank you. 504 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,580 Yeah, I think that's very helpful. 505 00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:05,939 I think 506 00:31:05,950 --> 00:31:10,600 there's a place where we can talk from our love for cats and we share 507 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,180 that love for cats and that shared understanding of our love for cats is 508 00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:16,929 a good place to speak from, isn't it? 509 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,530 Most of these people may not be aware of all the traits associated with their cat's 510 00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:26,919 breed, and they just want to be informed about the dangers associated with them. 511 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:31,200 One has to be prepared as a vet to, to give a basic advice on what to do next, 512 00:31:31,230 --> 00:31:35,030 because obviously they've already adopted the cat and they're not going to give 513 00:31:35,030 --> 00:31:37,350 the cat back and they want to keep it. 514 00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:40,579 And the next question that the client is going to ask is, what do I do now? 515 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:41,960 How can I prevent this? 516 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,299 How can I sort it out? 517 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,669 When you tell them you can't do much to sort it out they're 518 00:31:46,669 --> 00:31:47,579 going to be frustrated. 519 00:31:47,619 --> 00:31:51,710 As a health professional, you have to give them some, some sort of tools to 520 00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:55,540 cope with that situation and, and try to gain some agency and at least give them 521 00:31:55,570 --> 00:32:00,680 some tools to monitor their disease if it appears, and for them to be prepared. 522 00:32:00,690 --> 00:32:00,710 Yeah. 523 00:32:01,070 --> 00:32:04,799 And act when necessary, and especially assessing their quality of life. 524 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,390 That's a wrap on season one of the WSAVA podcast. 525 00:32:15,099 --> 00:32:17,930 Our thanks go to the Hereditary Disease Committee for leading 526 00:32:17,930 --> 00:32:19,290 this fantastic series. 527 00:32:19,969 --> 00:32:23,790 Next we'll be handing over to the Dental Committee, so subscribe to 528 00:32:23,790 --> 00:32:26,649 the show to be the first to hear when those episodes are released. 529 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,120 We'd also love to hear your feedback. 530 00:32:29,650 --> 00:32:32,650 If you can spare a few minutes, please rate and review the podcast 531 00:32:32,990 --> 00:32:36,240 in your app and don't forget to share it with friends and colleagues who 532 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:37,146 you think would enjoy it as well. 533 00:32:37,146 --> 00:32:41,140 It would mean the world to us and help us shape the direction 534 00:32:41,140 --> 00:32:42,069 of our show moving forward. 535 00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:46,790 Thanks again for listening, and we look forward to welcoming you back next season.