The Modern Hotelier 135: The Future of Loyalty Rewards for Hotels | with Brian Kelly, The Points Guy
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Steve Carran: Welcome to another episode of the Modern Hotelier. We're excited to release this episode with Brian Kelly, founder and CEO of The Points Guy. David, local guy, also from Doylestown area, what did you think about this episode?
David Millili: Well, it's great to see a fellow Central Bucks East high school alumni doing well. And, you know, I thought it was great. I mean, this is, his book is a book I'm, going to read because, you know, I'm always caught up in this dilemma of my American Airlines, my American Express and how to use these points.
So I think this is, a great episode for anyone to listen to.
Steve Carran: absolutely. And his book signing, the first spot is in Doylestown. 
So, pretty cool. But yeah, I mean, it was so, it was awesome. Just how he talked about not only loyalty through points and things like that, but, you know, how to build up points and really. I mean, the guy has a master class of how to build up points and the best way to use them, whether you're transferring or using through Amex.
So it was just a really cool episode with, Brian and he, definitely knows everything there is to know about points. So, stay tuned if you want to learn how to best use your points and enjoy
David Millili: Enjoy it.
 

David Millili: Welcome to the Modern Hotelier, Hospitality's Most Engaged Podcast. I'm David Melilli.
Steve Carran: I'm Steve Caron.
Jon Bumhoffer: And I'm John Boomhoffer.
David Millili: Steve, who do we have on the program today?
Steve Carran: Yeah, David. Today we have Brian Kelly, the founder and CEO of The Points Guy. Brian is known as the go to expert for maximizing points, miles, and rewards. Brian has revolutionized the way we think about travel, and his platform has helped travelers around the globe unlock once in a lifetime experiences, all while saving big.
Welcome to the show, Brian.
Brain Kelly: Thanks for having me. It's about time.
Steve Carran: Yeah. So Brian, we're going to go through a couple areas. We're going to do a lightning round. We're going to get to know you a little bit better, and then we're going to jump into some industry topics. Sound good?
Brain Kelly: Sounds good.
David Millili: All right. What is something that you wish you were better at?
Brain Kelly: Ooh, I wish I was better, funny enough at videography and photography. So much of my life's on social media and you know, I'm 41. So I call myself an elder millennial. And I, feel like my trip reports don't quite capture the beauty places that I'm going. So it's been on my to do list to up my, you know, videography skills.
David Millili: Okay. What's the most used app on your phone?
Brain Kelly: Ooh, I. I would say, I mean, Instagram, duh,
David Millili: Got it. All right. What's a luxury you can't live without?
Brain Kelly: noise cancelling headphones, highly recommend for anyone traveling. It really takes the stress away when you can't control what's around you, but you can control the beautiful noises going into your ears.
David Millili: All right. If you could trade places with someone for a day, who would it be?
Brain Kelly: I would trade places with, I'd have to go with Richard Branson. I mean, I've met him. He's iconic, but his life's exciting. I try to live an exciting life and I feel like he's got me beat tenfold.
David Millili: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Brain Kelly: My dad told me when I was starting the points guy, it was not a blog. It was a labor of love, time intensive. And he said, figure out a business where you can make money in your sleep. And lo and behold, that ended up happening. And, it was great advice.
David Millili: What's your favorite city and why?
Brain Kelly: it really depends. I am a Paris lover. I, it's just so romantic. So, you know, such good food, such a great hotels. It's, a vibe always. And I can fly Air France, which their first class is one of the best.
Steve Carran: That's awesome. That's awesome. That's great. So now we're going to dive into a little bit of your background, kind of where you grew up, what makes you tick. So you were born on Long Island and moved to Jameson when you were seven years old. Is that correct?
Brain Kelly: That is correct. And for those who have no idea where Jamison is, it's, a suburb of Philadelphia in Bucks County.
Steve Carran: Got it. Got it. So how did that shape you into who you are today?
Brain Kelly: It's interesting. So I grew up, my, my mom's one of 10 kids. My dad's one of four, Long Island Catholic, Irish Catholic family. So family is, It was and is huge to us. So my mom's whole family, when we moved two and a half hours away to outside of Philadelphia, it was like we were moving to Paris. You know, they were distraught.
How could we leave Long Island? Anyone who's familiar with the culture of Long Island, it's strong island. Like people don't leave. And I think it made our family more resilient. And we're used to traveling two, three hours every time we wanted to see family. So I feel like in a way it helped cultivate me as a traveler, like always living in the car, you know, sometimes every weekend in the summer to see family and that because we moved for my dad's job, he ended up getting.
Another job, his career took off and funny enough, the reason I'm the points guy is because my dad worked for a startup that he started traveling, you know, he worked from home in 1995. So I became his guru and booking all of his travel so never in a million years that I think at the time that that. kind of side job at age 12 would become anything many years later.
So yeah, moving to Long Island changed my life in a lot of ways.
David Millili: And so you debated going to American university, but you followed your brothers to the university of Pittsburgh and you got your degree in Spanish and economics. How did you choose those two as your degree?
Brain Kelly: I always loved speaking another language. I loved the world. I didn't really, I'd gone to the Caribbean. I'd never been to Europe until I was in college. I got a cheap flight to Ireland that kind of got me hooked. And then that year I studied abroad in Spain. Really hooked into, you know, and I was broke and just road tripping and just really had that urge to travel more and more, And, you know, with going to Pitt, I didn't want to go to Pitt. It was a public school. And at the time it's now a top 50 university. It's a really great education, but it all came down to dollars and cents. Cause my parents were willing to help me go to public school, which I think at the time was 12, 000 a year.
And American was. I think 35 or 40. And I am so thankful that I decided to go to Pitt where I knew I could get a liberal arts education. And I knew my major didn't really matter because it was all about getting experience. I interned every summer with businesses, so I wasn't in the business school, but I was getting business internships and then getting involved in campus and student government.
And those were the experiences that. Dramatically shaped my life being student body president, learning how to communicate effectively, build trust, manage a team, manage a 2 million budget. You know, I was doing this one when I was in college. So that really prepped me for what was to come, you know, seven years after graduation, when I started this little fun side blog that just blew up into a major business.
Steve Carran: That's great. That's great. And I think somebody snuck you the questions, before this because you're, leading right into the next one.
Brain Kelly: I actually, I swear this is the presidential debate. I had no, pre questions.
Steve Carran: I know I'm just joking with you, but, so that is, that's the next question. You were interested in student politics. You, first caught the bug at CB East where Mr. Malili is also an alumni of, and, you served as a senior class of vice president and treasurer junior year. And then in you were the first two term student body president at the university of Pittsburgh.
What got you interested in that in at CB East and what made you really passionate about it?
Brain Kelly: Wow. You got, I've never in my life been asked about my CBEs history. So kudos to you guys. I don't know if this is your AI assistant going to town, but. Well done. you know, in, in high school, I always wanted something, so I'm six foot seven and I just never was that good at basketball and I was so annoyed with people saying, Oh, you don't play basketball.
No, I don't like basketball, but I wanted to be able to, you know, for my parents to be proud of me for doing something. And, I just was never that athletic. and student government, I always knew, I think being really tall from day one, I remember in kindergarten, Kids would follow me. I could be the leader of the pack and it was sort of natural to me.
And so in high school, I remember there being some drama about prom. We didn't like the way prom, junior prom was being, it might, I think they were going to get rid of it or something. So I said, well, I'm going to run for treasurer of my junior year and as treasurer, I can have an impact and make sure we charge the right amount, have the junior prom that we want.
And people elected me. And I think I got hooked on that. And then we had a great junior prom. So the next year I. Ran for VP and had an amazing experience. So going into college, I remember my mom said, be the big fish at a small pond, go to pit and you're going to run the place. And, you know, that's sort of, sort of happened.
David Millili: So a lot of people don't know this, but there are a lot of great restaurants in the suburbs outside of Philly. And one of your favorite ones is the Black Bass Inn. I believe it's in New Hope. what do you order when you go? What's
your 
Brain Kelly: Yeah. The, black bass is actually in Lumberville, just
David Millili: Oh yeah, right across the
Brain Kelly: Yeah, they've got an amazing crab cake. They've always got really great seafood, steaks, burgers. I also love Stella. Stella is a new restaurant. It will not new. It's been around for a while. famous Philly chef, really beautiful right on the river.
For anyone listening, if you've never been to New Hope, Pennsylvania and the surrounding river towns of Lambertville, Stockton, there's a new Stockton Inn restaurant that is. I mean, Michelin, one Michelin star quality duck and great seafood. So there's a whole food scene and renaissance happening, in new hope that I, you know, for people, it's an hour outside of Philly, less and about an hour and a half, two hours from New York city.
So it's a great, stop, but yeah, the black bass, there's so many just charming restaurants. You're not going to get your cookie cutter chain restaurants in the river towns, and that's what I love about it.
Steve Carran: That's awesome. That's awesome. So now we're going to dive into your career a little bit and how you became the points guy. so after Pitt, you moved to New York city and started working in fashion on fifth Avenue in the cosmetic buying office at Lord and Taylor. Your boss was Sally Shaw. now your longterm friend.
What impact did Sally have in your early days?
Brain Kelly: So I learned so much. So, you know, I was in the closet throughout college. I always knew I was gay, but. I just knew I had to move to New York city. I actually had been given great, I could have been a pharmaceutical rep for Johnson and Johnson staying in Pittsburgh, making an amazing salary. And I knew if I, just knew my dreams were in New York.
I being from long Island, always going, you know, my dad would use his points and we'd say at the Marriott marquee times square, the. Energy of New York city. I was like that, is me and I'm going to do whatever it takes. So my friend worked for Lord and Taylor and funny enough, Lord and Taylor needed more men.
They had so many women that wanted to work in the buying office being a white male actually worked to my advantage. and lo and behold, they, got me a spot in the buying program. And I thought for sure I'd be put in men's suits or ties. And when I got my assignment in cosmetics, I was furious. I was like, I don't know anything about makeup.
But it was, everything happens for a reason because the cosmetics business is all marketing, baby. I learned I was helping get the hottest, you know, it's relationships and marketing, that was what I learned. And Sally Shaw was a pit bull. I didn't talk to her for the first week I was in her office. I was her second assistant.
So when you think about devil wears Prada, Sally, she was nicer than the boss. She wasn't quite a devil, but she was tough as nails and her. Her buying office was the largest, biggest moneymaker at Lord and Taylor cosmetics printed money. So I learned all about how staffing was important. You got to get the right salespeople at those makeup counters and the right team.
Bam. That's how your business took off. You had to get the, mascara sample from Chanel, the new, you know, they only had one sample and you know, all the buyers at Saks and Neiman's would be competing. And I learned in that I was a secret weapon. Once again, a six foot seven male walking in. You know, openly gay at the time, but all the fabulous, you know, assistants at Chanel, I quickly became best friends with having drinks, cocktails, and guess who always got the, you know, the Chanel lipstick first.
And at Lord and Taylor, they're like, how are you doing this? You know? And I just always learn, use my charisma. I may not be the smartest. I was never the best at, you know, running the numbers and spreadsheets and. And that's what quickly kind of shifted my career into HR about a year. And they were like, and I kind of raised my hand.
I'm like sitting behind this desk most of the time. And, we would have to look through stacks of paper. This isn't so much me, but let me go out on campus and recruit the next generation of buyers, because I can talk about this position and the glamorous life I had as a cosmetics buyer and I'll get.
People who may want to go into banking to come to Lord and Taylor. So it was an amazing experience. You know, being 22 years old, I was making 45, 000 a year, which I thought would make me rich. Very harsh realities moving to New York. I did the fifth floor walk up. I was so broke and I refused to go to my parents but those were the formative years.
That's what I wanted out of New York. And that's why, you know, it's, kind of the dream to move to New York, not quite knowing what your path is, but letting this. Incredible city with so many opportunities allow you to choose your own adventure.
David Millili: Wow. So you then went to Morgan Stanley. are there things from that experience that have stuck with you to this day? 
Brain Kelly: Yeah. So I was, I loved HR. I was the head of recruiting at age 23, had a big office on fifth Ave at the old Lord and Taylor building. It was amazing, but I was making, you know, I think at that, we went to 55, you know, and. It really didn't make much of a difference. You know, the number, the math really started to sink in.
And I think I had two weeks of vacation. I was paying 500 a month in insurance. Like I was like, if I'm going to do HR, this is 2007. Now this is pre meltdown. This is all my friends in banking. We're getting bottle service, a hundred thousand dollar bonuses. And my friends were like, look, even the HR people make great money and get the same benefits.
And I remember it was four weeks of paid vacation. You know, free top notch Rolls Royce benefits. So I somehow scammed my way into Morgan Stanley to do, to, run tech. So I went from recruiting buyers to recruiting computer scientists and engineers and data scientists from MIT. And immediately, I mean, I loved it.
It was a challenge because this is 2007. So I'm going to MIT trying to get, I mean, today, computer scientists are still in demand. Back then, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Bloomberg, all of these really everyone wanted to work there. And then certainly in 2008. When the financial industry imploded, I mean, I was working across the street from Lehman brothers when I saw everyone leave with their boxes.
I mean, I was there at ground zero and then, I mean, I was at career fairs and the Lehman brothers box was next to the Morgan Stanley table. And I remember so vividly, it was like parasites. Finally, by half the day, people just started to rip the boxes open, take all the freebies. it was a wild, time.
But once again, I, leveraged my salesperson, you know, mentality, talking to people, engaging with people. And that's what allowed me, I think, to be very successful at that job and still fly and whine and dine these top notch students and, you know. Also putting it all on my corporate credit card and getting all the Amex points.
So that's when I still wasn't making a ton of money, but my points rich, you know, cash poor days started where I had elite status in Starwood rest in peace. I love Starwood. Anyone in the biz who was a Starwood fan knows what I'm talking about. so I was floating in points, still no bonuses year over year because the industry was melting down.
I remember them specifically. Congratulations. Your bonus is not getting laid off this year. Come back again next year. And I'm like, but I'm flying first class on weekends, traveling the world. So, it was an amazing learning experience and running the internship programs. I ended up.
Going from recruiting to working in the tech division as their program manager. So all the new hires, I ran their training program. So talent management, recruiting, once again, the things that would become so important when the points guy took off and I needed to scale. So I really do. And I tell every young person I meet, stop focusing so much, you know, your major in college.
May be very important, but so much of what you do, like the job that I have today, you know, didn't exist when I was in high school, you know, influencing. And, you know, so yeah, I always take even the jobs you hate. Unbeknownst to you, you're probably learning a lot that you can leverage in the future.
Steve Carran: Sure. Absolutely. So the idea, you mentioned this before, but the idea of, you know, using points came to you in the late nineties when your dad was working from home and he challenged you to find a way to use his miles. And you found out how to fly your family a six to the Cayman islands for free. Can you tell us how this kind of sparked your passion and you know, how it snowballed from there?
Brain Kelly: So I was 12 when I first booked our first family trip and my parents and I laugh to this day because it was totally lunacy that they allowed me to do that. I had just read The Firm by John Grisham and it took place in the Caymans and it's, my dad had challenged me to go on a vacation and we had done Florida a million times.
We'd done Scottsdale once, we'd done Maine, Outer Banks, I was kind of sick of the sort of run of the mill domestic trips. And I told him we're going to Grand Canyon. He thought I said Grand Canyon for weeks until he got, I think, a paper ticket in the mail that said Owen Roberts International.
He's like, where the hell is this in Arizona? And we didn't even have passports, I don't think. So, And I remember he had U S airways miles, but only enough for four people, which I was able to get him and my siblings. Then my mom and I flew through Miami on his American miles. So it was splitting the team, which is a concept I talk about in my new book coming out on how to redeem miles and get the most value out of them.
We split the team selfishly. I wanted the flight that was connecting. Cause I love flying so much. So to me, connecting in Miami was like. Two for the price of one, two landings, you know, two takeoffs like hell. Yeah. And we rented a house on Verbo and this is 1996 was that trip and it was the best trip.
We had ever taken by far and we were giddy. I just remember the feeling of giddiness. Like we got this for free or close to it. You know, people go to the Jersey shore and pay 10, 000 for a family trip to, you know, and we were able to go for 1500, six people to the Caymans in January. And it was a two bedroom house.
It wasn't fancy, but we swam all, it was right on the beach and run point. And it just, that was a moment where I was like this. Travel thing brought us so close together. You know, my dad had been traveling quite a bit. He was in healthcare sales. So there were a lot of times when he was gone. So this was our yearly consolation prize.
Let's use his points from him being away and missing our games. And then we'll have these really special yearly vacations. So throughout the nineties, Barbados came in several times. Like we would go to different islands. And so that's when I learned, I had no idea that there were tons of other people doing this points thing, but that was where I earned my stripes.
David Millili: Well, so in 2010 is when you started blogging and sharing your tips on how to use points. Can you tell us about that experience and how you, grew it into the business? I
Brain Kelly: even a blog. Most people don't realize this for the first three months. The points guy was a static website. That was a form that the idea came my ex at the time. I mean, He was like, you're brilliant at these points thing. you should make money off of this as a side hustle.
And so I started the points guy as a, basically I was a travel agent who would help people with points. Cause I knew there was a market need. No one knew how to use points. you know, in college I had become deep into points. There's a website FlyerTalk which, you know, at the time. It's like Reddit, it's a community that goes deep.
And I got real deep. I discovered the underworld of points, the real hardcore maximizers in about 2004. So in 2009, 10, I mean, I was an expert myself at the game. And so I was like, let me just make money being a travel agent. So I'd charge 50 a ticket and I'd help people go on trips. You know, they had all these Amex points.
I want to go to Paris. So come on from Morgan Stanley. Come home. I do my little travel agent business. Eventually I then started consulting. I realized so many people wanted to talk to me on the phone about their strategy. Hey, I'm doing Hilton. Does this make sense with this credit card? So I joked that it was my phone sex operator, my travel phone sex operator days, because I'd sit there and be like, huh.
Yeah. Well, did you think about Delta? Did you know you could fly to the Seychelles for just 20, 000 more miles? You know, And half the time, I mean, people just wanted to talk and I'm like, sure. So people were paying me to talk and book their trips. And so it wasn't until about June of 2010, a friend was like, you should blog because this'll, I didn't know anything about SEO.
He was an SEO analyst. He set me up with my own WordPress. Theme and he said, just blog once a day, every day. This content is what people want. Trust me. Don't do anything weird. Don't do dark horse SEO. You don't need to cheat your content's gold Trust me. And I did that. And six months, the site really started to take off.
And, in early 2011, the New York times reached out to, cause they were hearing about me and their, columnist for the frugal. Traveler at the time, Seth Kugel, he was anti points. He was the old school and a lot of people in the media, most people in the media, mainstream media points were all about blackout dates.
They're useless. And it's so funny. Cause you talk to anyone now, 2011 was the heyday, you know, and there's always a narrative. So I wanted to come on to be like, you guys. you're facing blackout this cause you don't know how to look, you know, airline websites don't show you the truth. So I started becoming this pro points voice in media and that just blew up my site, my SEO, all these, you know, then once as featured in the New York times, but that article changed my life, it came out in April of 2011.
So I quit my job because at the same time I started to make money, as my dad said, in my sleep with affiliate marketing, with credit cards. And that was the moment where I couldn't keep just doing millions of award bookings. I, my dad was like, you can't just clone yourself or have a call center in India to do this really specialized task.
So I threw a friend, got into affiliate marketing. It sounded very scammy at the time. And affiliate was like kind of all the top publishers, people look down on affiliate, but that's how I started making bank. I made a million bucks in my first six months of doing affiliate. On my tiny little rinky dink blog, and then I realized the more I grew it and that's why I quit, you know, Morgan Stanley less than a year after my first blog post and started hiring people and it's just kept growing ever since.
Steve Carran: That's incredible. That's incredible. So now you're involved in, with a company called Journey. it's a loyalty program. Can you tell us about this and what makes it a little different from other loyalty programs?
Brain Kelly: Yeah, so I have found myself so I'm the points guy. I find myself staying at non points hotels more often than not. I am at the point in my life. I love luxury. I love bespoke experiences. I'll stay at points hotels. I'm at the park Hyatt, New York. It's a great value on points. Great indoor pool for my son.
It fits my needs when I need to be in New York, but I find myself often saying, well, I don't want to just, and frankly, hotel loyalty programs keep devaluing. as do the airlines. And I thought to myself, you know, and I, there was a, I didn't start journey. There's someone who I know, an entrepreneur that is the founder, and I started chatting with him about all of my sort of observations about the industry.
I'm like, I find myself never staying at Points Hotels. It's a big gap. I love my airline miles, my credit card points, but I think the hotel industry is still in a very 1990s. Set up where even every you book everything, it's free breakfast. Why I don't want free breakfast. So why does every single channel I'm not a breakfast guy.
Give me a Caesar salad at lunch. And no one has ever done that, you know? So there's, I have a lot of ideas on how the hotel industry. Should evolve. And more importantly, though, I want to bring in a loyalty program that covers all of these fabulous properties. And I'm friends with a lot of hoteliers like, Chris Birch is one of my business mentors, he owns Nihi Sumba, which is one of the best hotels in the world.
And I pitched this idea to him and just started talking about my pain points as a consumer. He started talking about his pain points as owning hotels and the dip, you know, the challenges where, you know, all this money is going to Google and. You know, paying for ads, it's not really getting the right people in the right hotels.
There's not a lot of OTAs that are adding value in the process. In fact, when writing my book, how to win at travel, I talked to a lot of front desk agents and they flat out said, Oh no, on OTA bookings, we'll, treat you like the worst in house. So there's a lot of friction for consumers, the value of the traditional hotel loyalty programs.
You know, since Starwood went away has been devaluing. I talked to a lot of luxury travelers and they. You know, they're not, maybe they're into Hyatt, you know, you'll find a Hilton person, but there's a lot of free agents out there, a lot of people spending a lot of money on hotels and these hotels, these smaller boutique hotels don't have the capacity to build up loyalty teams, CRM, marketing.
So that's just I see this huge opportunity on top of that, as you know, an influencer. Among other things, it's almost impossible for me to measure, you know, I know when I stay at properties, I drive a good amount of revenue to them, but it's all untraced because all this content goes on Instagram where we basically nothing is tracked.
So I see this ecosystem more and more where influencers are driving real revenue, really moving the market towards destinations and properties, but there's really no tracking. So influencers are giving all their great content to the social media platforms. And. Not getting credit for it, not getting paid.
So I think there's another arm of this where we're creating a really interesting guild of influencers who are legit, who can move the needle for hotels and creating a contract between them so that when a top influencer goes to Chicago, hotels should be bidding for them. They have free inventory. They could get free content, but a lot of hotels, once again, with a PR team, you don't know who's good or not.
They pass. So I just see that there's a lot of missing opportunity in the hotel space that why can't we bring more hotels into loyalty? There's certainly a lot of money to be made on bookings on credit cards. I know myself. So let's take more of that value and give it to consumers and hotel operators and create a program that encourages new business, not just viewed as Oh, let's just take from the margin.
And give it to, the booking platform. So that's the high level why I'm excited for journey. I think the industry needs a little bit of a shakeup and in talking to consumers, I think there's a huge need for a new loyalty program and hotels and lodging, not just hotels, but also. You know, home rentals, Airbnb doesn't have a loyalty program.
They come out and blast loyalty. They, I think they have a very, wrong opinion of loyalty. If you look everywhere else in the industry, loyalty is what makes airlines profitable. So I think that's a unique perspective from their management, but look, that's an opportunity for someone else to, you know, say.
We're pretty sure travelers like loyalty. I've got a hunch about that. So, you know, verbose program is, you know, they had a whole shakeup around their one key launch new management because they kind of bungled it. they ripped apart their old beloved hotels. com program. So I see all of these trends and I just see a massive opportunity.
Steve Carran: Awesome. That was great, Brian. So now we're going to dive into the industry thoughts section. So kind of get your opinion on points and things like that. So premium credit cards, especially seem to be having a tough time. Delivering on high value perks like lounge access. We've seen some cards like Amex, Platinum and Delta Sky Mile Reserve, for instance, cutting back on access to Sky Clubs and Chase Sapphire lounges or Capital One lounges.
For example, what are some issuers, what are issuers going to have to do to keep travelers convinced their products are still worth it?
Brain Kelly: Yeah. And what I see happening is issuers adding tangible perks, like credits that you can get, and you can add up quickly, Oh wait, this is worth it, you know, because I'm getting this actual benefit because the, as you mentioned, just having a car that has lounge access, the credit card company does, you know, in, in the case of, you know, Delta, for example, Amex doesn't operate Delta lounges.
So it can be challenging for them to promise something that another company is fulfilling. Right. So I think what we're seeing is the credit card companies, Amex was first with this in creating their own lounges and their own experiences, you know, trying to make those lounges bigger, you know, changing the guest policy, because they were so overcrowded is like the friction point, but I'm seeing.
More experience, you know, the credit card companies know if they can add a little sparkle to someone's travel and make it, you know, less friction, that's where people will be loyal for a lifetime. I also see, you know, on the points end, the credit card companies are still adding new travel partners. they're adding transfer bonuses to make it exciting.
so, I think the people who have premium credit cards, there's not the premium credit card market is still growing rapidly. There isn't a mass closures of cards in the, you know, the industries in crisis. Yes, there are those growing pains. Cause there were frankly, the crowd was just too big.
And there's only so much real estate and lounges, but I think the credit card companies are managing it by adding other perks where people can easily say, well, this card might be 695, but, you know, I shop at Saks and I do my airline credit. So, you know, if they give you enough to say, well, I know off the bat, I'm getting close to the annual fee plus, and I think really.
Where they should, and can be doubling down is on perks, like protections, purchase protections. When the airlines, you know, cancel your flight and you need to spend the night at the airport, most people don't realize their credit cards will cover a lot of those expenses. And that's why I'm passionate about still educating consumers.
You have way more perks than you realize, on your credit cards. so I, foresee airlines getting more into that peace of mind when things go wrong will be your backup.
David Millili: All right, this question is really just for me, not the listeners, but so is airline status still worth it? And what are the pros and cons of sticking with one airline? Because I found myself when I was in, lived in New Jersey, I was a United guy from Newark and moved to Phoenix. And now I'm an American airlines guy from Phoenix and it drives other people who I have to travel with or trying to book stuff for me crazy.
Cause I'm like, no, it has to be American airlines.
Brain Kelly: Yeah. So airline status as a whole has become less valuable across the board. I think it's sort of like the wealth gap at the top tier. It is still valuable. And if you're traveling so much. the perks, you know, upgrades aren't happening nearly as much, you know, a stat that really stands out to me when I started the points guy, 80 percent of first class seats domestically were given away to elite members.
So if you were a mid to high top tier elite, you were getting upgraded from cheap coach to first class a lot of the time. Now that number has flipped only 20 percent are being given away. As complimentary upgrades. So that was like a core foundation of elite status. cause now so many of the perks like free check bag, priority boarding, you can get that from a hundred dollar a year credit card.
So I would say to those low tier elites. Generally, you know, it might help you if your flight gets canceled and you're an elite member, they automatically rebook you over everyone else. But then say to yourself, how many flights a year are getting canceled? You know, you, the number of flights are getting canceled statistically is like one or two a year, depending, you know, so unless you're unlucky.
So I would say, and I did a. I'm very open about be a free agent. If you're flying decently here, there, I say have the credit cards. It gives you so many points. You book what you want when you want it, because that's how you, live a happy life, you know, this, you know, especially as you get older and you value your time a lot more, you're not connecting just to get points or segments like you used to.
And now that doesn't even matter because you. The airlines are now making you spend so much on their co brand. My lesson to people is there's an opportunity cost for every single dollar you spend. If you're going to earn one airline mile, that is half the value of a credit card point that could be transferred to 30 more partners and open up a world of possibility.
You need to understand that, that you could have been getting way more value by getting 2, 3, 4, 5 points per dollar on a more valuable card. That has probably better perks. So I think a lot more people are saying, well, why am I putting everything on one airline card? You know, I know this happens all the time.
People are like, I have 4 million Delta miles. How do I fly Emirates? I want to go on my honeymoon. And I'm like, you can't because you've made the decision to get, instead of earning nickels for years, you've been earning pennies.
And people like, you know, I think people are not realizing the value that they are foregoing by chasing the status that's getting cheaper.
So, I wouldn't say elite status is dead, I just think you need to jump through lots and lots of hoops. And I think a lot of the audience that used, was used to it 10 years ago saying, you know, it's worth it, I'll, give them my business, you know. Now just get a premium credit card that gets you in the lounge, it gets you, you know, access to more award seats or better customer service, instead of spending thousands and thousands of dollars for the hope of future value in the form of maybe an upgrade.
Steve Carran: Yeah. I agree. I agree. So what are some of the biggest travel related mistakes that you see people committing with their points these days? And what are some of the mistakes you made early on that you learned from?
Brain Kelly: I think the biggest mistake people make with points is number one, hoarding hoarders these days. And that, drives me nuts because the points. Economy. It's the smartest business that's ever been created. The airlines are making more money selling points and they are flying planes because they control the currency a hundred percent so they can today, and they are slowly eroding away the value because the airlines have to give wall street returns. And due to a million reasons, like no new planes really being made and no new airports being built, they're not. Get building profit by growing capacity at 25 percent a year. It's impossible. They're getting their 20 percent growth by juicing more value from the existing system, charging you for what used to be free, you know, and earning miles on points at the end.
Have full control to devalue taking billions and billions. Okay. And then, so hoarding's a bad strategy. So use them. I think the second thing is not knowing how to use them appropriately. So, you know, when I started the points guy, my knowledge allowed me to book the best tickets. I would know the ins and outs of how to transfer Amex to Aeroplan to book a Lufthansa ticket for 50, 000 points versus a 500, 000 ticket being 500, 000 Amex points.
That's, what it costs when you buy it. So many people, I think. Don't know that they could be transferring and saving a huge amount of points by transferring versus buying through the airline or the credit card. Now there are sites like point. me game changer. If you have an Amex card point. me slash Amex, you can use it for free.
and it'll tell you, Hey, don't, buy the ticket for 500, 000, that 5, 000 ticket you could have for 50, 000 points if you transfer to this partner. So using technology to do the heavy lifting for you, instead of having to read a million points guy posts, Is an easy way busy business travelers could be getting more value.
And once you start realizing, Oh my gosh, this transfer game, yes, it takes a little bit more, you know, planning and preparation, but that's how you stretch the value of your points. And that's when you don't care about elite status because you can book business in first class, whenever you want, when you know how to play the transfer game, well, 
David Millili: So what's the best way for somebody to get started? So if it was somebody just getting out of college and they're like, okay, I'm going to. I know I'm going to start traveling. What's, the best 
Brain Kelly: 4th. 
David Millili: Well I mean you gave me 
Brain Kelly: So my new book how to win at travel which hit shelves February 4th It takes you from zero to expert. You know, it's a 15 chapter book. You don't need to read it sequentially. It'll teach you how to earn points, redeem points, how to get value out of perks that you never knew existed. in addition to beating jet lag, staying healthy while traveling, with kids, I take you through.
All of it. So clearly reading my book, the points guy. com, you know, we have a team of huge team of writers now covering everything in the industry and really. I love points because they're a currency that the more you mine your knowledge and the more valuable you, they become. So anyone listening today right now, if you've got.
A ton of American Airlines miles. You can Google how to maximize American Airlines miles and just start reading because there've been prolific bloggers, not just at the points guy. The knowledge is there take a morning and just, you know, whether you have Amex points or chase points, it's all out there.
Every single blog post you read or Instagram reel you watch, you'll have aha moments. And that's what makes this game fun. You got to put in a little bit of work, even with this new technology. but I guarantee you the minute that you start redeeming for incredible value and you start flying business class for far cheaper than what a coach ticket costs.
It'll change the way you look at travel. 
Steve Carran: so your book came out February 4th, you kind of talked, touched on it already. Anything else you want to plug about it?
Brain Kelly: Yeah, it's an optimistic look at travel. it's not just points, it's far more than that. I open up, I think we're living in the platinum age of travel. You know, everyone waxes poetic about the golden age. Flying used to be so great. Wrong. It was crazy, expensive. Super unsafe. There used to be hundreds of hijackings a year.
It was chaos. You would have to make five stops to go to Singapore today. You can do it nonstop. So I set the tone for, okay, stop belly aching, stop complaining. Yes. Travel could be better, but guess what? You don't have to sit in those ever shrinking coach seats. If you teach yourself the game and I will teach you all of the foundations of what you need to know, I will lead you to the water.
And at the end of the book. I mean, there's truly probably a thousand core lessons throughout the book. Even if you get a small fraction of them, you will speak much more fluently. And I think maybe the most important chapter is how to protect yourself when things go wrong, because that is a constant travel that will always go wrong.
You'll always have delayed flights. And the key is knowing when you're asking for a favor. Which is what you're doing most of the time. And that's why I see people making the mistake of screaming at the agent who has full control of your destiny. Stop, change your mentality. So I think the book also includes a chapter on etiquette, how we can all be better travelers.
So I think it's a great gift for anyone, even a new traveler in your life. Even if you're an expert traveler, I learned a ton like how to. You know, battle jet lag, which isn't just about sleep or getting as much sleep on the plane as possible that could actually hurt jet lag. So there's a lot of lessons in the book, and I'm confident it will save you many more times the cost of the book in value and time, frankly.
Steve Carran: Definitely will check it out. In the etiquette portion, do you talk about standing up right as soon as the plane lands?
Brain Kelly: Yeah, you know. I talk about, please just let people leave the plane row by row unless you've really got that connection that's about to leave you like that, that, that grinds my gears. Yeah, we talk about a lot of the etiquette, you know, stop bringing stinky food on planes, stop going to the airport duty free and trying on every fragrance because That to me is almost worse than BO to be honest, just be mindful, wear clothes where your skin's not touching the person next to you, you know, generally bare feet on planes.
Yeah, you can wear flip flop in Hawaii, but you know, don't put your gnarly feet up in between the seats, things that seem so natural to me, I keep seeing. So I thought, let me just put it together. And I interviewed a really amazing etiquette expert, interviewed people like Richard Branson for his take on things like reclining your seat, which is, okay to do.
But. You should be respectful. Don't never slam your seat back and don't recline during meal service because no one likes to look at a scalp as they're eating cheap airline pasta. So we have a lot of fun in the book too. And like I said before, you don't have to read it sequentially. If you have a kid or have a friend that's having a kid, I'll.
Teach you everything from baby moons, when you can travel, board certified physicians, when to put your baby in a car seat versus on your lap, all the statistics and mentality behind that. So I'm, really proud of the book. It's been 15 years in the making, but better late than never.
Steve Carran: Absolutely. Can't wait to check that one out. So this whole time we've been asking you the questions, Brian, so now we're going to turn the tables. We're going to let you ask David and I a question.
Brain Kelly: Yes. What do you, how do you all think the hotel industry needs to evolve, to be in 2025? Where do you think the hotel industry is falling flat?
David Millili: Well, it's yeah, it's technology. I mean, it's, you know, it's what I always find funny. And I've, run, for a couple of years, I ran a guest engagement app and we did Radisson's apps and we did Caesar's mobile food and beverage ordering. And I always just would say, I think it's so funny that hoteliers have this mindset that you use an app for your Uber, you use an app for your airline, but then when you get to the hotel, there should be no value in a hotel brand or an independent hotel, having an app or technology that can help the guest experience.
So for us, but we focus a lot on, this podcast and kind of my career from running hotels to. Running tech companies is getting hotels to embrace new technology. We, I was just talking to someone earlier about, a company that's taking off. they were at for tour, which is a big trade show in Spain.
And it's a company that allows you to just book your book, the exact room you want through a 3d tour and everything. So you can see the location and book it. And you would think 2020, 2025, that would already be there. And it's not. So I think it's the tech side for me.
Steve Carran: That's what I was going to say too, but I am going to go with the experience side. I think, we're going to see a lot more hotels partner with local attractions, local restaurants, and we're kind of seeing it a little bit now, but, specifically in the independent space, there's some really, there's some hotels that are doing awesome stuff, partnering with, you know, attractions in their city, restaurant, things like that, but, you know, kind of.
Teaching guests and visitors on what the locals do what the kind of cool places to go are 
Brain Kelly: I've one final one too. What's the most magical property you've been to? Not necessarily luxury, but just somewhere like hotel where you're like, wow, this is like
Steve Carran: most magical property. So one of my recent favorites is in Delaware and it was, it's the, I, like dogfish had beer and it's the dogfish in and I walked in there. And the people were incredible. they basically gave us bikes to ride around for free and explore the city, go to different breweries.
But the whole experience, we were, we went out there and they had a fire pit. And we, that night, we just hung out by the fire pit with the staff. And just were talking, sharing experiences, telling stories, things like that. So it wasn't the most luxury hotel I've ever stayed in, but the people made it absolutely incredible.
David Millili: Yeah, for me, it's a. Easy one, but there's a reason why. So it's the Ritz Carlton in Puerto Rico. And that was because it was my wife and I, our first vacation without the kids since we had kids, so there was like a four year period where everywhere we went, the kids were with us, whether it was ocean city, New Jersey, or we went to Dominican Republic.
So this was our first vacation. So not only was it a great property, it was just like that feeling of, ah, no kids,
Brain Kelly: the port, the San Juan one is reopening this May after a full, remodel. It's supposed to be amazing.
David Millili: right? Yeah. That's, the one that's, yeah, that's, I think for sure. That's the one we're at. Yeah.
Steve Carran: Awesome, awesome. So our producer John, he's been listening the whole time here. He's going to ask you one last question before we get you out of here, Brian.
Jon Bumhoffer: All right. You kind of talked about it, the journey loyalty program, but you, mentioned there's a big, missed opportunity you think with hotels and loyalty, and especially maybe those independent type spots or the more luxury, properties. I'm curious, what is your ideal landscape and it comes to like how you operate and how you view points in how this would all work together?
Brain Kelly: I think hotels where I'm seeing a lack is there's lack of connectivity in hotel stays. I can't tell you how many times I stay at hotels. Have you been here before? They really don't have back to the technology piece CRM. So I'm hoping for a loyalty program that connects hotels that are not owned by the same people that allows you to actually enhance your stay.
And I'm not just talking about knowing your like wine preference for a free bottle of wine, but, really. Taking personalization to the next level so that you don't have to spend so much time. Also just technology, like being able, it drives me crazy. Now I stay at beautiful spa resorts where there's not even a tech platform to pre book your spa.
And then you show up in the spas book for four days and they have one 30 minute appointment. I'm like, help me help you. I want you to spend money and it's just so much friction. and I think loyalty can be more than just like the points and staying for free. I think loyalty is like actually using those points for really good value when the spa has openings, you know, so maybe you can get in a world bottom line with journey.
What I want to create is a program where it's dynamic in the sense of your points can become extremely more. Valuable for stuff that's going to go broke anyway, you know, for the hotel, an empty spa appointment two hours before I love booking last minute. If I can go on my journey app and I can get triple value for my points.
I'll absolutely take that. I probably would have so many, and I'd be spending more money too on product, et cetera. I think there's a way where loyalty hotels can change the way they look at loyalty as, Oh, these are the free guests where the parent company's making all the money and we now need to fulfill it too.
Oh, wow. These guests engage in a completely different way. They're booking hotel, you know, the restaurant at the hotel. So many hotels have amazing restaurants. And unless you Google the hotel, find the concierge's name, email them, wait for a day return to get back. Oh, wait, no, we have this time. That's where I see like loyalty coming into play where it's all in one app.
Your stay is planned. You can book a trainer through the app if you want to. It knows your preferences so that the next luxury hotel you stay, you can pick up where you left off if you want or start fresh. That's where I get excited about loyalty, and providing value to everyone in the ecosystem versus the hoteliers is feeling scammed The consumer is feeling like these points aren't worth anything. So saving time and adding value.
David Millili: That's great. Well, that does it for another episode of the Modern Hotelier. This is the part, Brian, where we've already, you already got in some good plugs, but let us know how people can find out more about, about you, about your company and plug away.
Brain Kelly: Yeah, so go to the point sky.com. That is the flagship website. I'm at Brian Kelly on Instagram, and you can buy my book. it'll be at every airport, Hudson News in the country and wherever you get books, eBooks, I narrated it. My or I narrated the audiobooks. So how to win a Travel Out in stores now.
David Millili: That's great. So that does it for another episode of the Modern Hotelier, Hospitality's most engaged podcast. So whether you're watching or listening, we appreciate you and we hope to see you again soon. Thank you, Brian.
Brain Kelly: Thanks for having me. Safe travels.