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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Here on Equine Assisted World.

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We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

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established in the equine assisted field.

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This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

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physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

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These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

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Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

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Welcome.

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, back to, , equine Assisted World.

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, today we've got someone amazing.

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, of course everyone on
here is always amazing.

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, we've got Dr.

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Rebecca Bailey, , the
Polyvagal Equine Institute.

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, it's something new, it's
something cutting edge.

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, Dr.

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Bailey is at the helm.

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, and there's a lot of
questions we want to ask her.

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What, what is polyvagal?

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What's this poly word?

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What's this vagal word?

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How can it help us?

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What do we need to learn from this?

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What, you know, how can this
help us in our practice?

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, I think a lot of us are familiar
with the idea of a sympathetic and

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a parasympathetic nervous system, an
autonomic nervous system, and these are

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words that have been creeping in over
the years, and now suddenly there's this

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polyvagal thing and what does this mean?

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And oh my gosh, is this another
thing that I have to get right or

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wrong or, , you know, et cetera.

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So, so, so, Dr.

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Bailey's gonna help us to understand
this and, , to bring in how this

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can help us in our practices.

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, I don't want to take away from, , Dr.

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Bailey's.

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, Knowledge of herself.

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So I'm not going to do too much of a bio.

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However, , Dr.

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Betty comes from a long,
, tradition, , with horses and

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of course with mental health.

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, she is a east coast transplant that
moved to the west coast about 35 years

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ago and has been working in the field
of trauma and recovery from trauma

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and resilience for a number of years.

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Has published books, , has been
on multiple, , media shows.

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You can find her all over the place.

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You can find her on, , Diane Sawyer.

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You can find her on all these things, but
it's quite rare that we can engage her

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one-to-one and get her to really clear
up for us what is this polyvagal thing?

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How does it help us?

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and what do we need to know?

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so Dr.

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Bailey, thanks for coming on.

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Welcome.

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Who are you,

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Rebecca Bailey: first of all, Rupert.

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I am so, stoked to meet you.

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Finally, after I think you and I have
been, Plotting, you were certainly

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ahead of the herd, but but been plotting
in the same pastures for many years.

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And, I've heard over the years that you
and I would either meet and endure each

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other or combust, in our connection.

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So, I don't know.

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Let's see what happens.

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I am a psychologist who I like
to say was raised by a horse.

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I think my first experience
in co-regulation was a

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little horse named Locket.

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I grew up back east, as you said,
and had two sisters that were

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very accomplished equestrians.

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And I was the rollie pulley
pudding P pie popping around

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on the horse in the backyard.

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And here I am all these years later.

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So in 19, about 1989, I got very
into animal assisted therapy and

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doing it as something, and not just
the dogs and horses in my life at

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the time in my graduate school.

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I was told after I did a master's
thesis, don't tell anybody,

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you'll discredit yourself.

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And really cool fact.

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What I found back then, I didn't
even realize what I'd found was a

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variable with women that had horses.

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It was an N of 70.

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which means a group of 70 versus 70
women that didn't have animals at all.

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And what I found was a very, very
high, leadership criteria, meaning

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that they had the ability to do
what we call military leadership.

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And this isn't the bang,
bang, shoot 'em up leadership.

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This is the ability to lead
from within and next to now.

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Ironically, Linda Kahani wrote
about this many years later

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in her power of the Herd book.

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So what I had discovered with this
particular, master thesis I did, that

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we who have horses who are dedicated
to understanding and listening to

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horses have this ability to lead and
connect with them, which is really

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at the core of regulation and co
regulation and polyvagal theory.

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So take me back, guide me back.

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Focus me back in, sir, as I go off into

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Rupert Isaacson: the, I got, I
got like five questions that I

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just wrote down for myself there.

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I'm gonna come back to them in a minute.

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quick and easy one, what do you do?

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Rebecca Bailey: That's
a very good question.

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I am a psychologist who
has been doing, extreme.

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I don't like to use the word
trauma because everybody says that.

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So I like to say extreme, complex
cases for about the last 30 years.

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now I am the co-director of the Polyvagal
Equine Institute with my colleagues

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Margie McDonald and JC Dugard, who
was a young woman abducted health

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captive of which the horses brought
back into life, into regular life.

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So I'm a psychologist, I am an educator,
I'm a trainer, and I'm a goofball.

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Rupert Isaacson: Me too.

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the goofball bit, not the other bits.

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okay, so what is the
Polyvagal Equine Institute?

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Rebecca Bailey: So the Polyvagal
Equine Institute is our attempts

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and desire to, we maybe put a
different lens on equine treatment.

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And I know we're supposed to say
equine something, something, and I

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always get it wrong being a dyslexic.

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So I just call it.

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Equine interventions, equine, whatever.

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I've never figured this
out for many years.

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But what we're, we're trying to do, and
what we are doing is training people for

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professional awareness and understanding
of not only themselves, their clients, but

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the incredible colleagues that are these
incredible horses that they work with.

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So for many years I've been doing
interventions with the equine work.

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I've morphed like everybody else.

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But what was really missing to me
was, was the understanding of the

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dance between nervous systems.

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People understand this, that as we were
discussing earlier, that do classical

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dressage, they understand that piece.

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But what was missing in equine therapy
was when you're on the ground, this

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connection between the nervous systems,
what you bring in, what the horse brings

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in, and what the client brings in.

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So this was part of what we said.

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We really want to push the field a little
bit forward in using, in, in teaching

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other people about this modality, and then
also enhancing other treatment modalities.

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For example, and I can say it
to you because you're, you.

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I've had a few people that have
gone through psychedelic treatment

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and have come here after they've
had months, after they've had

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their journeys and surprise it.

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There are people that would laugh who've
known me all these years, particularly

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with my old Grateful Dead experience.

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We ground them, post those experiences
and help them maybe process and

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understand that experience in a
different way, if that makes sense.

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So our program, our trainings also
enhance other treatment modalities.

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Rupert Isaacson: What was
your Grateful Dead experience?

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Rebecca Bailey: Well, I was the maid of
honor to the, bass player and his wife,

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my ex-husband worked for them and the
bass player named two children after,

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my ex-husband and my brother-in-law.

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And then my horse, Dr.

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Velcro, who many people know, black
and White horse was given to me by

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Billy Kitzman, the drummer's, wife.

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And so I had long, the eighties were
one big blur of Grateful Dead concerts.

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And then I got my act together at the end
of the eighties and went to grad school.

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Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so
there, there's something I'd

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like to, to, to go there.

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I, I didn't have this in my notes,
but this is interesting to me

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because, not every listener will
be familiar with the Grateful Dead.

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So, we have, you know, listeners
all over the world, so I'll just

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quickly fill in the Grateful Dead.

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Were some would even say are, The
sort of seminal 1960s counterculture.

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But of course they went over decades.

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but you could argue that they
were really the f the, the, the,

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the, the, the spokespeople of the
counterculture, certainly within the usa.

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And they came out of the West coast with a
type of psychedelic music and exploration

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and people associated them with drugs,
people associated them with hippie stuff

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correctly and of course incorrectly.

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And that they were also purveys
of a sudden kind of Americana.

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if you really break the music
down it, a lot of it is actually

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Celtic with sort of African roots,
which one could say is Americana.

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But they took it to a, a level
of sort of consciousness that

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attracted bazillions of people.

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And so the Grateful Dead concerts
were like a mo, a festival that

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was sort of constantly going around
America over, over many, many decades.

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And it's interesting how many people,
one meets who have gone on to all sorts

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of interesting things, who had a sort of
seminal shamanic one could say, experience

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or number of experiences through this
particular part of the counterculture.

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And those who know me know that, you
know, I've, I've had a lot of experiences

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in the Shamanic, and I would say that
a Grateful Dead concert, what people

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called a dead show, was a very viable
shamanic experience, healing experience,

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formative experience within the confines
of our post World War ii, post witch

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burning, post Auschwitz, post, you know,
colonialism and everything else, culture.

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so it's, it's very interesting to
me that you, you bring up the fact

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that you had a, a grounding in this.

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How do you feel, what do you feel, before
we go back to polyvagal, what, what do

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you feel that your, participation in
this aspect of the Western counterculture

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did for you within the horse and
equine assisted world to sort of open

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your mind and heart to the greater
possibilities of what we could do?

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What, what, what detail?

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So

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Rebecca Bailey: cool.

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No wonder people were saying
we can bust because Absolutely.

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I, when I met and kind of fell into
the connection with all those guys,

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it was, it went about 16 or 17 and
very repressed Boston society and came

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into this place where was asked to
see the whole world from a different

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perception, getting to know Jerry Garcia.

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Well, being part of that connection.

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Learned a lot about, again,
again, how leadership is about

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leading within and about and part
of the collective conscience.

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And people like, you know, like you
say, it's funny, somebody yesterday

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was saying, oh, but we're using
psychedelia now in a different way.

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It's not a social thing like that.

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And I'm like, you don't get it.

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You don't get it.

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These people there, there was, Joseph
Campbell used to come to the concerts.

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I mean, there was this understanding
of the collective consciousness and

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our responsibility to each other.

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So, God, there's so many things where
we could go to, I mean, for example,

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my great great great, great great
grandmother was hung as a witch in Salem.

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And so I even in all of this sort of
shamanic releasing of intergenerational

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trauma, I think what all of this that
all connected me to was an embracement

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of the passion and all it's me.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I know if it wasn't for my connection
with those guys and the band and all those

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people, I would never have felt that.

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I would never, you

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Rupert Isaacson: conjured
some names there for people.

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Again, Jerry Garcia was the band
leader of the Grateful Dead.

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if you dunno who he was, you, you
just do a quick wiki because you

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could, you could argue that many of
the more progressive, aspects of our

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culture emanated through that man.

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Joseph Campbell.

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Just talk to us a little bit
about who Joseph Campbell was.

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Rebecca Bailey: Well, Jo Joseph
Campbell, was an amazing, amazing,

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I think, what would we call him?

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A Jungian, theorist and
wrote, what the heck?

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I'm gonna block on the name nephrologist.

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Really?

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Right here?

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Yes.

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Yes, yes.

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And he really talked about bringing
sort of shamanic concepts back, talking

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about the journeys that we all go
on in our life and, and in things.

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He, he broke into a society that
weren't counterculture people.

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Right.

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He broke into dining rooms and
living rooms and cocktail parties of

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Rupert Isaacson: academics
and academics and

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Rebecca Bailey: establishment people
like that who were saying, you

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know, who were able to say sorry.

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Were able to say, oh my
gosh, this makes sense.

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This isn't dancing in
the, in the hallways.

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and it's sort of all melted together
into this great big understanding.

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I keep saying the
collective consciousness.

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And so here we go to polyvagal theory.

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We were learning about the mix of nervous
systems and how we all impact each other,

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and how the collective consciousness
is the responsibility of all of us.

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Mm-hmm.

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and not going off into
any political realm.

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Just saying these, this
understanding that my hand affects

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your hand affects this hand.

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And so that became the core
of the polyvagal work we did.

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With trauma, understanding that
it's not the central victim

00:14:15.605 --> 00:14:17.255
or survivor in front of you.

00:14:17.525 --> 00:14:18.635
It's this system.

00:14:18.635 --> 00:14:22.115
The parents, the friends, the, you
know, law enforcement, the judge,

00:14:22.145 --> 00:14:26.075
all of this that are impacting the
individual system in front of us.

00:14:26.375 --> 00:14:30.215
All the stuff that herds of horses
show us if we sit down and watch.

00:14:31.085 --> 00:14:31.955
Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting.

00:14:31.985 --> 00:14:35.465
I, I've had, quite a lot of experience
with, one could say wild people.

00:14:36.005 --> 00:14:40.260
I lived with, bushman hunter gatherers,
on and off for quite a while, and one

00:14:40.260 --> 00:14:44.220
of their central tenants, is that if
there's any suffering, any sickness, any

00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:49.050
dilemma within the community, it's always
actually a joint responsibility, what

00:14:49.050 --> 00:14:50.370
you would call collective consciousness.

00:14:50.370 --> 00:14:53.490
That, and that's why everybody
must come together at the transfer.

00:14:53.790 --> 00:14:59.010
And it could be, gosh, it could be
anything from someone's actually got some

00:14:59.010 --> 00:15:03.420
major health problem to someone's got a
psychosis to, there's just a, a couple

00:15:03.420 --> 00:15:06.480
who are arguing a lot and it's disrupting
a little bit the harmony of the village.

00:15:06.900 --> 00:15:10.740
Or it could just be a sort of
general washing of the psychic

00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:15.090
dirty laundry of the whole community
just to keep everybody cool.

00:15:15.660 --> 00:15:21.300
but at its fundamental level, there's
this, this, acceptance that there is a,

00:15:21.750 --> 00:15:23.400
joint responsibility for the whole thing.

00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:27.870
And you don't hear this spoken about very
often in the west because we have, you

00:15:27.870 --> 00:15:31.620
know, this myth of the rugged individual
and so on and so forth, and that we're

00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:33.330
all just sort of out there, a dog eat dog.

00:15:33.630 --> 00:15:35.640
But we, we know that's
not really how life is.

00:15:35.880 --> 00:15:42.375
So, Talk to me a little bit about how
polyvagal theory helps inform us if

00:15:42.375 --> 00:15:44.655
we're coming out of a Western tradition.

00:15:44.895 --> 00:15:44.925
Okay.

00:15:44.985 --> 00:15:47.775
And we're not just yeah, familiar
with this Ultraman thing.

00:15:47.895 --> 00:15:51.705
How does this help us understand
and get to grips with all of this?

00:15:52.305 --> 00:15:52.575
So,

00:15:52.575 --> 00:15:58.875
Rebecca Bailey: just to go back, just
because, just so for example, 25 years

00:15:58.935 --> 00:16:04.035
divorce kind of separated myself from
this core of herd of people that had

00:16:04.040 --> 00:16:05.775
connected, built a different life.

00:16:06.165 --> 00:16:10.065
My house in barn burns down
and the whole community burns.

00:16:10.455 --> 00:16:15.405
And the leader of the BA Jerry
Garcia's daughter contacts me out

00:16:15.405 --> 00:16:19.725
of the blue, offers me her house
for a month where my, and I hadn't

00:16:19.725 --> 00:16:21.225
seen her, I haven't seen her since.

00:16:21.225 --> 00:16:24.765
I didn't see her after she just said,
Hey, I heard you were in trouble.

00:16:25.335 --> 00:16:28.185
So I, the reason I'm saying that is
that that just underscores what you're

00:16:28.185 --> 00:16:30.105
talking about, like the responsibility.

00:16:30.105 --> 00:16:33.825
It doesn't mean that I live next to
you and check in on you all the time.

00:16:33.825 --> 00:16:34.575
It doesn't mean anything.

00:16:34.575 --> 00:16:40.125
It just means that even from afar, I
hear you're sorrow and I help and I'm

00:16:40.125 --> 00:16:42.645
there in some way, whatever way I can be.

00:16:42.855 --> 00:16:45.165
So how does this commit
with the whole polyvagal?

00:16:46.125 --> 00:16:49.365
So the polyvagal studies of Dr.

00:16:49.365 --> 00:16:55.185
Steven Porges, who is the, sort of the
creator inventor researcher of polyvagal

00:16:55.185 --> 00:17:01.845
theory, really looks about how it kind
of, the way I boil it down really boils

00:17:01.845 --> 00:17:04.335
down to this very simple aspect that.

00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:09.810
Human beings have the strive,
have the drive to survive.

00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:14.640
And everything we do is around
the service of survival.

00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:20.850
And as the vagal pathways evolved over
millions and millions of years, this

00:17:20.850 --> 00:17:26.970
social engagement pathway in what we call
the ventral vagal developed, and this

00:17:26.970 --> 00:17:34.410
social engagement pathway is the core of
compassion and curiosity and connection.

00:17:35.010 --> 00:17:42.210
So how this all fits is to really
understand that in our western view,

00:17:42.210 --> 00:17:47.910
we've toppled a little bit in my mind
over in therapeutic interventions

00:17:47.910 --> 00:17:50.550
into, you know, brain stuff.

00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.510
We do bottom down, meaning from
the brain down to the body.

00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:59.010
Well, what polyvagal theory says, and at
least from my interpretation, and I really

00:17:59.040 --> 00:18:03.720
do believe it's a growing fields where,
you know, we've gotta be very careful

00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.460
to not say you're wrong and I'm right.

00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:10.680
But from our perception with the horses,
when I say polyvagal, it's the top down,

00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:15.900
the top, the bottom up learning is at the
core of the essence of the work we do.

00:18:16.260 --> 00:18:19.620
Meaning that it's in how we get
into our body to feel it in the

00:18:19.620 --> 00:18:23.940
body and then respond in, in a.

00:18:24.375 --> 00:18:29.775
Slow manner or fast, depending on
whether we're in a survival state,

00:18:30.195 --> 00:18:32.295
but in order to then process it.

00:18:32.295 --> 00:18:35.805
And often we process based on
old narratives that have nothing

00:18:35.805 --> 00:18:37.215
to do with the present moment.

00:18:38.235 --> 00:18:38.655
So it's

00:18:38.655 --> 00:18:39.135
Rupert Isaacson: a big Mel.

00:18:39.525 --> 00:18:39.855
Okay.

00:18:39.860 --> 00:18:44.925
So, so, so you talk about the body
informing the brain, which, you know,

00:18:45.075 --> 00:18:49.245
let's, we could, we could talk, you
know, gut, heart, brain and so on.

00:18:50.115 --> 00:18:53.655
There is this thing called the
vagus nerve, the wandering nerve.

00:18:54.255 --> 00:18:56.355
it's the largest nerve in our body.

00:18:56.415 --> 00:18:56.775
Okay.

00:18:58.935 --> 00:19:03.435
Can you explain to us what
the function of this nerve is?

00:19:04.185 --> 00:19:06.735
And then from that, I'm gonna
ask you why the word poly?

00:19:07.005 --> 00:19:11.205
Do we have more than one vagal
nerve or is it that we have

00:19:11.205 --> 00:19:14.385
multiple effects from this nerve?

00:19:14.985 --> 00:19:15.825
Or is it Yes, somewhat.

00:19:15.825 --> 00:19:16.065
Both.

00:19:16.095 --> 00:19:16.365
Okay.

00:19:16.515 --> 00:19:17.955
So what is the vagal
nerve and what does it

00:19:17.955 --> 00:19:18.195
Rebecca Bailey: do?

00:19:18.765 --> 00:19:22.905
Okay, so if you're a cardiologist
listening to me, you're gonna be rolling

00:19:22.905 --> 00:19:25.005
your eyes and saying, lady, come on.

00:19:25.005 --> 00:19:27.045
I'm not having you do
heart surgery with me.

00:19:27.045 --> 00:19:32.295
So I want you to understand that one
of the, the areas about the vagal

00:19:32.295 --> 00:19:34.755
nerve visit, it is very multifaceted.

00:19:34.755 --> 00:19:37.185
It has really important roles in our body.

00:19:37.485 --> 00:19:43.485
I am not a neurosurgeon, so I'm gonna
come at it from my simplistic psychologist

00:19:43.485 --> 00:19:47.115
perspective for me, the vagal pathways.

00:19:47.115 --> 00:19:51.615
And yes, there are two vagal nerves,
which for dyslexic, this drives me crazy.

00:19:51.615 --> 00:19:53.265
Why not call it two nerves?

00:19:53.535 --> 00:19:55.695
But there's one on the
left and one on the right.

00:19:55.695 --> 00:19:55.725
Okay?

00:19:55.755 --> 00:19:59.445
That intervene, go through
all major organs in our many

00:19:59.445 --> 00:20:02.205
major organs through our body.

00:20:02.685 --> 00:20:09.315
Also go up into the rated nerves in the
face, meaning up above those eyes, those

00:20:09.315 --> 00:20:13.575
nerves right there, I, you can't see it
because you're listening, but around the

00:20:13.575 --> 00:20:18.555
eyes, and above on the forehead, and then
also they innervate into that inner ear.

00:20:19.275 --> 00:20:25.725
For me, the most important role
of the vagal nerves is assessing

00:20:25.725 --> 00:20:27.825
what gorgeous calls neuroception.

00:20:28.605 --> 00:20:29.415
Am I safe?

00:20:29.415 --> 00:20:30.465
Am I not safe?

00:20:31.515 --> 00:20:38.175
Now what that, that that means is
in response to a sense of safety or

00:20:38.235 --> 00:20:44.295
survival, you're gonna have different
aspects of the body that respond.

00:20:44.295 --> 00:20:49.545
So for example, in very, very, very
old, old evolutionary days, the only

00:20:49.545 --> 00:20:55.155
way we could respond to threat, not we,
but our great, our, you know, reptile

00:20:55.155 --> 00:21:01.125
ancestors, was to shut down and, save
our resources as much as possible.

00:21:01.125 --> 00:21:04.335
Breathe really slow, feign
death, whatever that was.

00:21:04.335 --> 00:21:04.965
Same possible.

00:21:04.970 --> 00:21:05.255
Basically.

00:21:05.635 --> 00:21:05.855
Yes.

00:21:06.495 --> 00:21:09.645
And hope that the predator would
go away or whatever that was.

00:21:09.645 --> 00:21:13.335
So that was the only, only
survival stance that we had.

00:21:14.775 --> 00:21:18.975
Then through evolution, the
sympathetic pathways developed.

00:21:19.185 --> 00:21:21.435
Fight or flight, get out of there, right.

00:21:21.465 --> 00:21:23.385
Move, move, whatever that is.

00:21:23.985 --> 00:21:28.065
And then from there, the ventral
vagal pathways and the ventral

00:21:28.125 --> 00:21:30.375
vagal pathways are the pathways.

00:21:30.825 --> 00:21:34.305
It's much more complicated than
what I say, so please, I know that.

00:21:34.725 --> 00:21:38.325
But the ventral vagal pathways are
what allows us to socially connect.

00:21:38.745 --> 00:21:45.015
Now, to be in a regulated stage,
regulated state, to be able to sit, have

00:21:45.015 --> 00:21:50.025
this conversation, to be able to hug
each other, mobilize without fear, we

00:21:50.030 --> 00:21:52.065
have to have ventral vagal oversight.

00:21:52.725 --> 00:21:53.745
So that's something by the word

00:21:53.945 --> 00:21:54.345
Rupert Isaacson: oversight,

00:21:54.555 --> 00:21:55.155
Rebecca Bailey: what does that mean?

00:21:55.185 --> 00:21:58.185
Pathway needs to be engaged as well.

00:21:58.185 --> 00:21:58.215
Okay.

00:21:58.515 --> 00:22:01.035
So that's one of the
mis misunderstandings.

00:22:01.035 --> 00:22:03.645
I do believe it's pretty black
and white, although, you know,

00:22:03.645 --> 00:22:07.365
next week I could be wrong, but I,
this is how I operationalize this.

00:22:07.665 --> 00:22:12.615
So I look at it when that horse, you're
going along and the horse sees a rock and

00:22:12.615 --> 00:22:18.915
stop, you know, startles and if you are
in the position to calm yourself down,

00:22:18.945 --> 00:22:24.465
be with the horse, then the horse kind of
engages and gets signs of safety from you.

00:22:24.470 --> 00:22:28.245
And then you go forward or the horse
tells you it's safe and you go forward.

00:22:28.635 --> 00:22:33.375
I have a horse that's terrified of turkeys
and I cannot ride her on a, a trip.

00:22:33.375 --> 00:22:33.665
Yeah.

00:22:34.245 --> 00:22:39.465
Cause if a Turkey goes by, she
rears up and pause and I jump off

00:22:39.675 --> 00:22:42.375
and it's just, you know, and I,
some rearing horses I can take.

00:22:42.375 --> 00:22:44.235
She, she just scares the crap outta me.

00:22:44.595 --> 00:22:49.095
But one of my friends who's 20 years
younger, she goes out bareback with

00:22:49.095 --> 00:22:54.075
me and a Turkey goes and up goes freia
and up goes hope and they trot off.

00:22:54.105 --> 00:22:54.885
You know what I mean?

00:22:54.885 --> 00:22:59.805
So that's a really good exempt
like example of the dance

00:22:59.805 --> 00:23:01.725
between two nervous systems.

00:23:02.775 --> 00:23:04.335
Rupert Isaacson: what is what
you're saying then that, that

00:23:04.395 --> 00:23:05.565
it's, it's individualized.

00:23:05.775 --> 00:23:13.410
So, it's so individualized how you respond
to that apparent threat and that horse

00:23:13.410 --> 00:23:14.790
response to that apparent threat Yep.

00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:16.500
Creates one equation.

00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:17.310
Yep.

00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:20.760
And then with your friend, hope
that creates another equation

00:23:21.150 --> 00:23:22.950
because of differences in.

00:23:23.325 --> 00:23:25.965
Her vagal expression,

00:23:25.970 --> 00:23:29.475
Rebecca Bailey: her v well, her ability
to, maybe you could say her ability to

00:23:29.475 --> 00:23:34.965
access a, a, a dorsal state of calm for a
minute to go to immobility without fear.

00:23:35.205 --> 00:23:37.905
So that's that thing that I'm
beginning to understand even more.

00:23:37.905 --> 00:23:41.295
And, and one of the, the things
today, there was something written,

00:23:41.685 --> 00:23:45.585
I don't wanna say where, but it
was by the pros on neuroception

00:23:45.585 --> 00:23:49.215
calling it faulty versus Not faulty.

00:23:49.215 --> 00:23:52.005
And I was like, I don't believe
it's faulty versus not faulty.

00:23:52.155 --> 00:23:54.345
I don't think hopes is better than mine.

00:23:54.525 --> 00:23:57.525
I just think it's different
in combination to that horse.

00:23:57.855 --> 00:24:00.705
And so I think our neuroception
should be embraced.

00:24:00.705 --> 00:24:05.385
And I think that's where the Neurodiverse
community has rightfully had some

00:24:05.385 --> 00:24:10.335
criticism to polyvagal theory, because
it's saying like, the way it's been

00:24:10.335 --> 00:24:15.285
perceived, at least from some of the
parents I work with of Neurodiverse kids,

00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:19.815
is like, you're like saying everybody's
ventral vagal, but that's not comfortable.

00:24:20.115 --> 00:24:23.475
You know, for me, my home
state is sympathetic, period.

00:24:23.475 --> 00:24:24.585
Surprise, surprise.

00:24:24.885 --> 00:24:27.435
I'm, I'm a really big social engager.

00:24:27.435 --> 00:24:31.755
I'm really big on ventral activity,
but I personally am the happiest when

00:24:31.760 --> 00:24:33.975
I've got a little juice, you know?

00:24:34.185 --> 00:24:39.285
but in concert with somebody that I
can overwhelm, I have to be careful.

00:24:40.635 --> 00:24:43.575
Rupert Isaacson: There's a couple
things I want to, to, to return to.

00:24:43.695 --> 00:24:48.495
and you, you've, okay, so just
for clarity's sake, there are two.

00:24:49.860 --> 00:24:52.650
Vagal nerves or There are two
main branches of the same nerve,

00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:53.910
Rebecca Bailey: two vagal nerves.

00:24:53.910 --> 00:24:55.590
There is a left and right vagal nerve.

00:24:55.590 --> 00:24:58.710
Do not ask me why they only
call it one, but there is.

00:24:58.710 --> 00:24:58.770
Okay.

00:24:58.770 --> 00:25:01.080
And it comes, starts at the
bottom of the brainstem.

00:25:01.590 --> 00:25:03.510
Rupert Isaacson: So it goes from
your upstairs to your downstairs and

00:25:03.510 --> 00:25:04.680
your downstairs to your upstairs.

00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:04.800
Rebecca Bailey: Yeah.

00:25:04.805 --> 00:25:07.650
The back, the back of the
neck, bottom of the brainstem.

00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:11.350
But it innervates these important
facial nerves and the inner ear.

00:25:11.350 --> 00:25:11.870
That's my next

00:25:12.030 --> 00:25:12.110
Rupert Isaacson: question.

00:25:12.110 --> 00:25:13.310
What does enervate

00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:13.620
Rebecca Bailey: mean?

00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:19.110
Means it connects in with, connects
in with the, the heart connects in,

00:25:19.115 --> 00:25:22.500
actually, interestingly enough, it
connects it to the nerves that turn your

00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:26.490
shoulder too, which is, you know, when
you're feeling a whole lot of stress.

00:25:26.495 --> 00:25:26.770
Mm-hmm.

00:25:26.855 --> 00:25:28.230
And you're like, what is that?

00:25:28.230 --> 00:25:29.970
Well, that's also the vagal pathways.

00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:30.390
Are you

00:25:30.390 --> 00:25:32.880
Rupert Isaacson: saying that
innovation means that the, that

00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.800
nerve, the vagal nerve or both the
vagal nerves are, receive, innovate

00:25:37.800 --> 00:25:39.840
means it receives information

00:25:39.840 --> 00:25:45.270
Rebecca Bailey: from other, or it it
connects into and remember to just

00:25:45.600 --> 00:25:49.290
that neurons and neurotransmitter,
all this stuff is at play too.

00:25:49.290 --> 00:25:53.160
It's not just this, you know, not
just the nerve itself, it's the

00:25:53.165 --> 00:25:55.020
neurotransmitters and the vagal.

00:25:55.770 --> 00:25:58.710
The ventral vagal are myelinated.

00:25:58.710 --> 00:26:02.100
And what we know about myelination,
and please, I'll stumble over my words.

00:26:02.100 --> 00:26:05.790
We know that the messages in
myelin and the myelin pathways

00:26:05.790 --> 00:26:09.990
are quicker, are received quicker
than in other parts of the body.

00:26:09.990 --> 00:26:10.170
Is

00:26:10.170 --> 00:26:12.330
Rupert Isaacson: myelin actually
the sheaths of the nerves?

00:26:12.330 --> 00:26:12.610
Yeah.

00:26:12.975 --> 00:26:13.665
Exactly.

00:26:13.755 --> 00:26:14.295
Exactly.

00:26:14.325 --> 00:26:14.475
Okay.

00:26:14.475 --> 00:26:18.915
So, so the plexi covering over the wires,
how good that is, or how not good that is,

00:26:19.245 --> 00:26:20.655
Rebecca Bailey: and how quickly it moves.

00:26:20.655 --> 00:26:23.505
But in the dorsal area,
it's not myelinated.

00:26:25.275 --> 00:26:25.695
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:26:26.085 --> 00:26:34.015
So you are saying that the ven ventral,
vagal nerve is myelinated, meaning

00:26:34.035 --> 00:26:35.445
it has, it has some insulation.

00:26:36.105 --> 00:26:39.195
Rebecca Bailey: Call it the ventral
vagal pathways instead of nerve.

00:26:39.195 --> 00:26:42.285
Just remember it's one, because
the wander, as you said, it's the

00:26:42.285 --> 00:26:43.725
longest of the cranial nerves.

00:26:43.730 --> 00:26:45.045
It wanders through all.

00:26:45.225 --> 00:26:49.305
So I call it pathways that may not be
right, but it helps my little brain.

00:26:49.635 --> 00:26:49.905
Okay.

00:26:50.295 --> 00:26:52.875
Rupert Isaacson: Just, just, but I'm,
I'm helping my little brain here to, ok.

00:26:53.195 --> 00:26:53.415
Ok.

00:26:53.420 --> 00:26:57.015
We, we've got one, the ventral
one, i e, the, the, the safe

00:26:57.015 --> 00:27:00.045
place one that's myelinated,
meaning it's got a sheet on it.

00:27:00.045 --> 00:27:01.725
It's got, it's, it's got some insulation.

00:27:01.730 --> 00:27:01.815
Yes.

00:27:02.355 --> 00:27:07.185
But the dorsal one, which is connected
to our collapsed state, play possum

00:27:07.185 --> 00:27:11.835
state are, let's just, appease
or go with whatever we need to go

00:27:11.835 --> 00:27:13.275
through to get out of the situation.

00:27:13.395 --> 00:27:18.945
If we can't fight or flee
is raw, it doesn't have an

00:27:18.945 --> 00:27:20.595
insulation thing around it.

00:27:20.835 --> 00:27:21.525
Would that be correct?

00:27:21.525 --> 00:27:22.755
Rebecca Bailey: At least
that's my understanding.

00:27:22.755 --> 00:27:22.965
Yes.

00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:24.675
And that's that rest and digest.

00:27:24.675 --> 00:27:26.475
And then the sympathetic doesn't either.

00:27:26.475 --> 00:27:29.445
At least that is my understanding
at this point in time.

00:27:29.865 --> 00:27:35.475
Now, what's fascinating is a conversation
I had with Porges couple weeks ago

00:27:35.715 --> 00:27:40.155
on one of our barn chats through
p v I, we talked to him about how.

00:27:40.545 --> 00:27:46.005
Some early research shows, and I
don't, I, I gotta clarify this for

00:27:46.005 --> 00:27:52.755
you, that predators have less ventral
pathways than prey, I believe.

00:27:52.755 --> 00:27:55.845
And now don't quote me yet, cause I
gotta get that clear and I'll send you

00:27:55.845 --> 00:27:57.825
the answer, but it's just interesting.

00:27:57.830 --> 00:28:01.215
There is a difference between the
ventral pathways between predator

00:28:01.215 --> 00:28:03.525
and prey, which makes sense, right?

00:28:03.765 --> 00:28:07.425
Because herds have to connect
together for safety, which would

00:28:07.425 --> 00:28:11.445
make sense that they would need
a little bit more of the ventral.

00:28:11.445 --> 00:28:13.275
But I'm gonna please, I don't, I

00:28:13.275 --> 00:28:13.845
Rupert Isaacson: always do.

00:28:13.845 --> 00:28:17.745
Well, this, this raises interesting
questions because for example, humans,

00:28:18.105 --> 00:28:19.905
we know we're not apex predators.

00:28:20.145 --> 00:28:21.225
We're somewhere in the middle.

00:28:21.375 --> 00:28:22.965
We're, we're, we're not armored.

00:28:22.965 --> 00:28:23.895
We don't have big teeth.

00:28:23.925 --> 00:28:25.785
We're not strong like the chimpanzees.

00:28:26.085 --> 00:28:29.895
We don't have, some of us have a
lot of hair, but yeah, mostly not.

00:28:30.195 --> 00:28:31.755
and we're slow, we're bipedal.

00:28:31.935 --> 00:28:37.535
So, but we have this big brain, so we get
our thing through strategy, which might

00:28:37.605 --> 00:28:44.505
make us like half what a herd would need
of herb of was, and half what an apex

00:28:44.505 --> 00:28:50.925
predator, like a lion or a, or, or, or
a tiger, which are, but, but then you

00:28:50.925 --> 00:28:55.755
also get these predators that are super
social, like wolves, lions versus tigers.

00:28:56.145 --> 00:29:00.105
So presumably there must be some
sort of a spectrum or continuum.

00:29:00.795 --> 00:29:06.545
and I, I presume in evolution, maybe
you can, I, I, I, for example, I've

00:29:06.545 --> 00:29:11.135
read that humans, this is a really
interesting, theory that humans when

00:29:11.135 --> 00:29:17.585
they came down from the trees, emulated
other midlevel predators that were just

00:29:17.590 --> 00:29:19.595
a little bit above them, which is hyenas.

00:29:19.595 --> 00:29:20.765
Mm-hmm.

00:29:20.855 --> 00:29:23.225
And we began to behave
a little bit like them.

00:29:23.675 --> 00:29:27.635
And we found that that actually
served us quite well because we

00:29:27.635 --> 00:29:28.715
couldn't really behave like lions.

00:29:28.715 --> 00:29:30.515
We couldn't really behave like
tigers cause we didn't have that

00:29:30.515 --> 00:29:32.675
kind maximum superpower thing.

00:29:33.215 --> 00:29:37.415
I dunno if that's true or not, but what
I do know is that wolfs hyenas, and to

00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:43.025
some degree lions have a very, have a
mammalian caregiving system that's based

00:29:43.025 --> 00:29:46.625
an awful lot on affection and interaction.

00:29:46.625 --> 00:29:51.845
And that evolves into strategies
when they hunt a bit like us.

00:29:52.655 --> 00:29:52.775
Yep.

00:29:52.805 --> 00:29:56.405
But things like tigers, for example,
don't seem to, or polar bears or,

00:29:56.825 --> 00:30:01.235
you know, things that are more sort
of, so I guess the question then is

00:30:02.885 --> 00:30:07.175
if you're dealing to prey, us to a
horse, we're the predator of the horse.

00:30:07.175 --> 00:30:10.325
The horse is always a little bit
skeptical of us, quite rightly.

00:30:10.865 --> 00:30:17.315
or if you are a therapist to, or,
or person dealing with someone

00:30:17.315 --> 00:30:20.375
who's gone through an awful lot of
trauma, they have, you know, quite

00:30:20.375 --> 00:30:21.725
rightfully a little bit skeptical.

00:30:23.015 --> 00:30:25.985
Are we then this is a
question, are we then.

00:30:28.220 --> 00:30:34.400
Caught in a interesting movable
equation constantly between

00:30:34.405 --> 00:30:39.980
this dorsal, vagal effect, this
parasympathetic nervous system.

00:30:40.580 --> 00:30:41.030
Am I safe?

00:30:41.030 --> 00:30:48.260
I I not say this, ventral, d vagal thing,
saying, if I am safe, can I strategize

00:30:48.260 --> 00:30:51.950
with you and make a plan with you and
team up with you and align with you?

00:30:52.340 --> 00:30:56.210
Or do I need to protect myself and
this is an ever-changing landscape?

00:30:56.210 --> 00:30:57.860
Is that sort of what we're dealing with?

00:30:58.640 --> 00:30:58.760
Really

00:30:59.030 --> 00:30:59.330
Rebecca Bailey: cool.

00:30:59.630 --> 00:31:01.550
I love the way you are articulated.

00:31:01.550 --> 00:31:05.960
I've actually get almost goosebumps
cuz I've never really, that's why

00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:10.250
the combustion, I've never really
heard anyone kind of articulated in

00:31:10.250 --> 00:31:14.180
the way that when I stand back, I
look at the world and maybe it's that

00:31:14.185 --> 00:31:16.940
shamo stuff we did, but Absolutely.

00:31:16.945 --> 00:31:19.190
So you're talking about the
animals that you're talking, the

00:31:19.190 --> 00:31:22.850
mammals that you're talking about
that have this social connection.

00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:26.360
you're talking about the ability
to co-regulate, the ability to

00:31:26.360 --> 00:31:30.290
be co-regulate by another, and
we get it all screwed up in this.

00:31:30.290 --> 00:31:34.940
I think often where we think regulation
comes before co-regulation, uhuh

00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:39.350
co-regulation comes first, the
ability to be soothed by another.

00:31:39.650 --> 00:31:45.350
And we absolutely have this bizarre
dance with, humans and horses, which is

00:31:45.350 --> 00:31:47.480
one of the things with polyvagal equine.

00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:52.550
Not to toot our own horn, but really
to pay attention to the choice of

00:31:52.550 --> 00:31:57.260
the horse within the equation and
the protection of the horse as well.

00:31:57.260 --> 00:32:01.850
The safety of the horse, the safety of
the human and paying attention to this

00:32:01.850 --> 00:32:06.350
no matter what we think and how much
we think we understand everything that

00:32:06.350 --> 00:32:11.300
they're thinking and blah blah blah and
all these new theories of what's going on.

00:32:11.330 --> 00:32:16.760
The real thing we can do is get in touch
with our own nurse Neuroception of am I

00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:19.370
being co-regulate and am I co-regulate?

00:32:20.760 --> 00:32:21.050
Okay,

00:32:21.070 --> 00:32:22.820
Rupert Isaacson: i's need to ask
you, let's define these terms.

00:32:22.820 --> 00:32:25.460
Cuz again, for a lot of people who
are listening, they won't know this.

00:32:25.970 --> 00:32:27.650
What is co-regulation?

00:32:27.800 --> 00:32:28.760
Just what's the black and white?

00:32:29.330 --> 00:32:29.570
So the

00:32:29.570 --> 00:32:32.420
Rebecca Bailey: best thing I can say
with co-regulation is you think about

00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:36.020
the baby that's crying that comes
into the world, whether what other

00:32:36.020 --> 00:32:40.160
type of animal mammal it is and they
need something to take care of them.

00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:43.130
They cannot possibly survive
in this earth without it.

00:32:43.610 --> 00:32:46.580
I always use this story and I
hope my son never hears it, but

00:32:46.910 --> 00:32:51.080
my son was incredibly colicky and
I could not co-regulate that guy.

00:32:51.260 --> 00:32:53.450
Like there was no ability to co-regulate.

00:32:53.450 --> 00:32:54.450
Rupert Isaacson: The only
thing couldn't see him.

00:32:54.450 --> 00:32:55.160
Is that what you mean?

00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:56.120
You couldn't make him feel better?

00:32:56.180 --> 00:32:56.660
Rebecca Bailey: Basically.

00:32:56.900 --> 00:32:58.010
I couldn't make him feel better.

00:32:58.010 --> 00:32:58.040
Okay.

00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:02.600
And the only thing to make him feel
better was passing out of of tire because

00:33:02.600 --> 00:33:04.460
he had a real serious stomach problem.

00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:10.160
And so he didn't necessarily
perceive me as this, this.

00:33:11.525 --> 00:33:16.325
This, you know, thing to make him feel
better where my daughter instantly,

00:33:16.325 --> 00:33:17.795
which made me feel like a better parent.

00:33:18.005 --> 00:33:22.655
But so what I'm trying to say is that
co co-regulation is this ability to

00:33:23.015 --> 00:33:25.835
kind of help someone feel better.

00:33:25.835 --> 00:33:30.215
And then there's the other side or
connect with somebody else where

00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:32.855
regulation is, this is insulated piece

00:33:34.025 --> 00:33:35.585
Rupert Isaacson: regulations
when you're doing it for

00:33:35.585 --> 00:33:36.065
Rebecca Bailey: yourself.

00:33:37.175 --> 00:33:38.315
Yes, yes.

00:33:38.315 --> 00:33:40.745
And that's important and that's
what's important about some of

00:33:40.745 --> 00:33:42.635
the yoga and all of these things.

00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:48.695
But unless we learn to co-regulate,
we're not doing what you and I were doing

00:33:48.725 --> 00:33:54.065
earlier, which is understanding the social
consciousness of, of being aware of each

00:33:54.095 --> 00:33:55.775
other's nervous system in the world.

00:33:55.775 --> 00:34:01.175
And once you start using that
languaging and acting that way in your

00:34:01.180 --> 00:34:06.605
life, there's this huge ability to
access compassion and curiosity for

00:34:06.605 --> 00:34:08.645
other people, including the horses.

00:34:09.455 --> 00:34:13.655
Whenever we lose that capacity and
curiosity for other people and the

00:34:13.655 --> 00:34:20.255
horses, we lose our ability to have them
find their own ability to co-regulate.

00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:20.345
Right.

00:34:20.615 --> 00:34:25.625
And to me it's at the core of therapy
for severely traumatized people

00:34:25.625 --> 00:34:28.355
is being curious and authentic.

00:34:29.615 --> 00:34:30.425
So

00:34:32.285 --> 00:34:36.845
Rupert Isaacson: if we have a,
an ability to co-regulate Yes.

00:34:36.850 --> 00:34:38.015
And we develop.

00:34:38.555 --> 00:34:39.245
Is it like a muscle?

00:34:39.245 --> 00:34:48.185
We can exercise, can we, can we develop
that to a point where our capacity for

00:34:48.185 --> 00:34:54.035
empathy, let's say, to put ourselves in
the shoes of, without assuming we're in

00:34:54.035 --> 00:35:00.275
the shoes of, but at least to try to meet
that person or that animal halfway, can

00:35:00.545 --> 00:35:04.565
get more and more developed because we're
putting more and more attention there.

00:35:04.685 --> 00:35:05.435
Would you say that

00:35:05.435 --> 00:35:06.755
Rebecca Bailey: that's
Well, I, I believe so.

00:35:06.755 --> 00:35:09.005
I mean, to me that's
what horses taught me.

00:35:09.335 --> 00:35:16.445
And, and I think that, as long as we
don't automatically assume or leave

00:35:16.445 --> 00:35:21.155
them with the responsibility of having
to take care of dysregulated people,

00:35:21.455 --> 00:35:23.495
I think sometimes that's the thing.

00:35:23.885 --> 00:35:28.595
Some of the equine orientations drive me
a little bit crazy cuz it's like the poor

00:35:28.595 --> 00:35:30.125
horses, like, what am I supposed to do?

00:35:30.935 --> 00:35:34.505
Not the, you know, that's amortizing
or however you pronounce that word.

00:35:34.805 --> 00:35:40.055
But, but I think I, I do believe
that you can learn to be co-regulate

00:35:40.060 --> 00:35:42.215
and co-regulate and regulate.

00:35:42.665 --> 00:35:47.615
And some of us maybe had to take different
journeys than other people to get there.

00:35:47.975 --> 00:35:53.855
But all of our co-regulation and
all of our reg, I I, it's different.

00:35:53.855 --> 00:35:55.055
It's individualized.

00:35:55.060 --> 00:35:56.405
That's the thing that's so important.

00:35:56.965 --> 00:36:01.070
So, You know, in, in the US there's
so much on evidence-based protocols,

00:36:01.070 --> 00:36:05.780
which is really important, but the
fact is it thwarts authenticity.

00:36:06.050 --> 00:36:10.310
And so yes, the, it's really important
that everybody isn't running around saying

00:36:10.315 --> 00:36:14.180
it is because I say, so, it's important
that we have some data and understand

00:36:14.185 --> 00:36:20.240
it, but at the same time, we gotta
understand that our horses, and many of

00:36:20.240 --> 00:36:24.830
the people at least that I work with,
smell inauthenticity and run to the hills

00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:27.290
if they, because it's dangerous to them.

00:36:28.550 --> 00:36:29.270
It's not safe.

00:36:29.930 --> 00:36:33.230
Rupert Isaacson: Can you define
what you would say is authenticity?

00:36:34.220 --> 00:36:37.220
Rebecca Bailey: I think authenticity
is being really true to who you are.

00:36:37.220 --> 00:36:41.810
For example, I'm a big playful
person and I use a sense of humor

00:36:41.815 --> 00:36:43.250
and it's very natural to me.

00:36:43.550 --> 00:36:47.000
And if I had to sit here like
this and say, well, Rupert, let's

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:49.250
talk about, you'd be like, what?

00:36:49.370 --> 00:36:52.250
Like you might think you, you,
part of your cerebral mind might

00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:53.570
think, wow, she sounds smart.

00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:57.470
Probably not you, but, but
it wouldn't be authentic and

00:36:57.475 --> 00:36:58.790
Rupert Isaacson: wouldn't
you don't mean pu joke.

00:36:58.900 --> 00:36:59.910
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:59.910 --> 00:37:01.510
You might be like,
please make me feel safe.

00:37:02.650 --> 00:37:04.670
Rebecca Bailey: We wouldn't
be communicating through our

00:37:04.670 --> 00:37:05.870
nervous systems together.

00:37:05.870 --> 00:37:08.390
So even over Zoom, it
kind of blows my mind.

00:37:08.390 --> 00:37:13.070
I get a really sense of who you are, and
hopefully you get a sense of who I am.

00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:13.430
Mm-hmm.

00:37:13.430 --> 00:37:17.600
And so if you come into my office or
my arena or whatever, and I'm trying

00:37:17.605 --> 00:37:23.390
to act according to the protocol
for blah, blah, blah, unless it's

00:37:23.390 --> 00:37:25.610
really, really authentic to me.

00:37:25.955 --> 00:37:27.725
It's not, it's, it's gonna fall.

00:37:27.725 --> 00:37:29.045
That's like horseback riding.

00:37:29.045 --> 00:37:33.065
Unless you authentically are riding
with your feel and body, you're

00:37:33.065 --> 00:37:36.785
always gonna look like you're,
you're, you know, I don't know

00:37:36.785 --> 00:37:40.235
what a plastic person on a horse,

00:37:40.885 --> 00:37:43.175
Rupert Isaacson: this, this, this,
this raises a question for me.

00:37:43.175 --> 00:37:45.155
Do brains and bo brain and body mapping?

00:37:46.205 --> 00:37:50.975
There's so, and again, for, for, for,
listeners that might not know what

00:37:50.975 --> 00:37:53.915
that means, let's say for example,
I'm holding a pen right now because

00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.145
I'm writing down some questions.

00:37:55.745 --> 00:38:02.255
My brain makes this, pen part of my
body so that when I put the, tip of

00:38:02.255 --> 00:38:06.965
the ballpoint on the, on the paper, I
feel it as if it was part of my body.

00:38:06.965 --> 00:38:10.755
So therefore I can do it, in,
in, in a way that's effective.

00:38:11.805 --> 00:38:20.565
Do you feel that authenticity is a
sort of way of the brain body mapping

00:38:20.565 --> 00:38:32.715
emotion so that the way in which
one communicates with another being

00:38:32.895 --> 00:38:34.365
could be animal, could be human?

00:38:34.455 --> 00:38:35.865
You obviously where animals
be, you know what I mean?

00:38:38.205 --> 00:38:44.175
Is therefore at its most strategically
effective, so would still come

00:38:44.175 --> 00:38:48.975
back to survival, but thriving
rather than surviving maybe.

00:38:49.935 --> 00:38:51.195
Is it something along those lines?

00:38:52.350 --> 00:38:52.860
In a way,

00:38:52.860 --> 00:38:57.480
Rebecca Bailey: but I, I, I
think that your body, your, your

00:38:57.480 --> 00:38:59.640
neuroception in your body has, oh,

00:38:59.640 --> 00:39:00.400
Rupert Isaacson: what's neuroception?

00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:01.440
That's what I meant to ask.

00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:06.570
Rebecca Bailey: So neuroception is
porges word for, the detection of safety.

00:39:06.575 --> 00:39:10.650
He calls it like the TSA agent,
are you safe or you not safe?

00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:13.560
Rupert Isaacson: Um, so, so not
just what are my nerves telling me?

00:39:13.890 --> 00:39:15.330
It's specifically, am I safe?

00:39:15.330 --> 00:39:15.750
Am I not?

00:39:16.020 --> 00:39:16.620
Rebecca Bailey: Am I safe?

00:39:16.620 --> 00:39:17.490
Am I not safe?

00:39:17.495 --> 00:39:23.160
And to me that I do feel like
horses embody that piece,

00:39:23.550 --> 00:39:25.680
and present us that a lot.

00:39:25.740 --> 00:39:27.780
Like, you know, people talk sometimes.

00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:30.780
I've had people send me stuff
about the horse's cerebral cortex

00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:34.110
being blah, blah, blah size, and
therefore they're not as smart.

00:39:34.110 --> 00:39:36.870
And I'm like, you're not
defining intelligence in

00:39:36.870 --> 00:39:38.580
the way you're defining it.

00:39:38.580 --> 00:39:41.190
Yeah, I that one crap.

00:39:41.570 --> 00:39:46.830
But, so the neuroception, I think the
thing is when we're able to match our

00:39:46.830 --> 00:39:55.980
neuroception, our internal body response
in a way with present moment narratives

00:39:55.980 --> 00:39:59.100
in our brain, we're congruent, right?

00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.590
But so many people are not congruent.

00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:03.060
So many people have

00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:03.600
Rupert Isaacson: response.

00:40:03.600 --> 00:40:04.230
Explain to me what you mean by

00:40:04.230 --> 00:40:04.980
Rebecca Bailey: congruent.

00:40:05.670 --> 00:40:09.960
And I may be using it wrong for
the, the, the, you know, whatever.

00:40:09.990 --> 00:40:11.010
I may be using it wrong.

00:40:11.010 --> 00:40:13.260
But from my perception,
it means they match.

00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:17.640
They're together, they meet
together so that, you know, I

00:40:17.640 --> 00:40:21.840
have, you know, my little chocolate
Labrador dog is laying over here.

00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:26.310
And let's say someone walked
in the room who was, I don't

00:40:26.315 --> 00:40:27.540
know, it's a terrible example.

00:40:27.540 --> 00:40:31.710
I don't know this thing, but they come in
and they see a dog and they're like, dog.

00:40:31.710 --> 00:40:35.970
And it's like, okay, there's an
incongruence because the dog is

00:40:35.970 --> 00:40:38.610
sleeping over here and it's very quiet.

00:40:38.610 --> 00:40:42.600
So you're basing on an old narrative
that's making you respond in a way

00:40:42.600 --> 00:40:44.760
that's based on a past experience,

00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:46.920
Rupert Isaacson: not appropriate
to the current situation.

00:40:47.550 --> 00:40:47.970
Rebecca Bailey: Yes.

00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:51.900
Now that's where this whole thing
that's tweaking my brain, where

00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:55.890
I've started really teaching that
neuroception is neither good nor bad.

00:40:55.890 --> 00:41:00.660
And now there's this new hearing that I'm
hearing, well, it's faulty versus not.

00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:04.290
I actually think that's problematic
because I think that the thing that

00:41:04.290 --> 00:41:08.160
I've found in a lot of the trauma work
that I've done with people to let them

00:41:08.160 --> 00:41:10.080
know that their body was just right.

00:41:10.290 --> 00:41:15.210
They're here in my office or in my
arena with the horses and they survived.

00:41:15.570 --> 00:41:19.620
Let's celebrate that instead of looking
at the faulty verses, not faulty.

00:41:19.830 --> 00:41:23.070
And that's at the basis of the
article that I wrote with Steven

00:41:23.070 --> 00:41:25.650
Porges and JC Dugard and Dr.

00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:27.570
Smith on appeasement.

00:41:27.870 --> 00:41:32.310
This thing that when you're in a
relationship, With an aggressor.

00:41:32.310 --> 00:41:34.200
We were trying to get rid
of the word Stockholm.

00:41:34.200 --> 00:41:39.060
Stockholm syndrome was the word that
the media put forth as to how people

00:41:39.065 --> 00:41:40.650
fall in love with the perpetrator.

00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:44.550
It actually had seven variables,
but the one that most people object

00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:47.910
to in my mind, that have been
in this situation is the love.

00:41:48.270 --> 00:41:50.010
It's not love, it's survival.

00:41:50.430 --> 00:41:53.340
For most of these people, every once
in a while somebody will say, no,

00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:54.960
no, no, I actually did, but whatever.

00:41:55.410 --> 00:41:57.240
So, so we're not gonna dismiss it.

00:41:57.240 --> 00:41:58.470
There's no absolutes.

00:41:58.830 --> 00:42:02.550
But, understanding that the
appeasement, which is this ability

00:42:02.550 --> 00:42:07.710
to be in dorsal absolute fear and
then activate the ventral vagal to

00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:11.490
stay alive, is really a superpower.

00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:16.050
So, for example, Elizabeth Smart, who's
another young woman, I didn't work with

00:42:16.050 --> 00:42:20.430
her, but she's a good friend who was held
captive for 18 months by a crazy person

00:42:20.430 --> 00:42:22.560
up in the hills and raped repeatedly.

00:42:22.950 --> 00:42:28.920
She said, in talking about this, about
this subject that she understood, what

00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:33.930
she did was she thought, if I'm super
kind, this person might be kind to me.

00:42:33.990 --> 00:42:36.810
This person and his sick
wife might be kind to me.

00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:39.090
And she said it was unconscious.

00:42:39.090 --> 00:42:43.800
But now when I look back at it, I
realize that I was from deep terror

00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:46.230
into this place of I'm gonna be kind.

00:42:46.230 --> 00:42:47.730
In the hopes you're kind too.

00:42:48.660 --> 00:42:50.670
Did it change the course of her life?

00:42:51.210 --> 00:42:51.930
No.

00:42:52.335 --> 00:42:52.815
No.

00:42:52.815 --> 00:42:54.075
Did they stop raping her?

00:42:54.075 --> 00:42:54.705
No.

00:42:54.915 --> 00:42:58.845
But she was able to survive and,
and actually now is thriving

00:42:58.845 --> 00:43:00.375
a beautiful life years later.

00:43:00.945 --> 00:43:03.225
Rupert Isaacson: Did it help her
to strategize her way out of that

00:43:03.225 --> 00:43:04.845
situation in some way or other?

00:43:04.905 --> 00:43:05.415
No,

00:43:05.415 --> 00:43:09.075
Rebecca Bailey: because for many of the
people that I know who've been in those

00:43:09.075 --> 00:43:11.745
extreme, there is seriously no way out.

00:43:11.745 --> 00:43:11.775
Okay.

00:43:11.865 --> 00:43:12.645
There's no way out.

00:43:13.245 --> 00:43:16.065
You ha you, you know, you're
living so much in the home and

00:43:16.065 --> 00:43:17.295
people talk a lot about hope.

00:43:17.295 --> 00:43:19.095
That's a whole nother podcast.

00:43:19.845 --> 00:43:24.225
But, but, it is more like surviving
in the second in, in the moment.

00:43:24.285 --> 00:43:25.065
In the minute.

00:43:25.365 --> 00:43:32.655
And so that appeasement word I just
love because it is this capacity to have

00:43:33.465 --> 00:43:38.955
terrible fear in your body and then go
up into an engagement and then not get

00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.505
your, not be wrong about it in treatment.

00:43:41.955 --> 00:43:45.525
Not 10 years later be sitting in
an office saying, oh my God, I

00:43:45.525 --> 00:43:48.135
disassociated and why didn't I fight back?

00:43:48.525 --> 00:43:48.615
Right.

00:43:48.615 --> 00:43:49.815
That's not the point.

00:43:50.145 --> 00:43:50.445
Right.

00:43:50.445 --> 00:43:52.905
So I mean, maybe for some
people it is, it could be,

00:43:53.985 --> 00:43:57.285
Rupert Isaacson: well there's only any
point fighting back if there's a chance

00:43:57.315 --> 00:43:58.695
that that's going to be successful.

00:43:58.700 --> 00:43:58.965
Right?

00:43:58.995 --> 00:44:04.365
I mean, anyone I think who's
ever been in a, in a situation

00:44:04.365 --> 00:44:07.005
where their life is in danger.

00:44:07.005 --> 00:44:09.435
I think this happens in
all sorts of situations.

00:44:09.465 --> 00:44:14.115
And, for example, in the world of young
men, growing up in the type of school

00:44:14.115 --> 00:44:18.945
that I grew up with in, in England, it,
it was violent and it was constantly,

00:44:18.945 --> 00:44:20.235
constantly, constantly violent.

00:44:20.265 --> 00:44:21.525
It wasn't just violent a little bit.

00:44:21.915 --> 00:44:24.345
It was you, you were beaten
by your teachers, you were

00:44:24.345 --> 00:44:25.425
beaten by the older boys.

00:44:25.425 --> 00:44:27.255
You were, everything
was endorsed that way.

00:44:27.255 --> 00:44:28.875
And it was a military
school and dah, dah, dah da.

00:44:29.085 --> 00:44:33.165
And that was not just my experience, that
was the experience of many generations.

00:44:33.165 --> 00:44:37.185
So this appeasement thing was something
that, one, I think you, you touched

00:44:37.185 --> 00:44:42.645
on, one really learned to use,
which was that you knew what your

00:44:42.645 --> 00:44:44.835
chances were if you could fight back.

00:44:45.465 --> 00:44:46.125
Well, sure.

00:44:46.395 --> 00:44:51.315
But that, and so sometimes
you did, but you were made to

00:44:51.315 --> 00:44:54.075
feel shame when you didn't.

00:44:54.465 --> 00:44:58.695
However, there was a wiser part of you
that knew that sometimes you had to

00:44:58.695 --> 00:45:03.165
appease cuz this bloke was just 28 times
bigger than you and there was no way up.

00:45:04.155 --> 00:45:09.795
And then you were either gonna go
to hospital and they did, or you

00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:11.325
were going to appease in some way.

00:45:11.805 --> 00:45:14.775
And then you might then
be shamed for that later.

00:45:16.125 --> 00:45:20.085
However you survived, went
on and could strategize.

00:45:20.265 --> 00:45:23.085
And what I'm wondering with that,
with, with appeasement and therefore

00:45:23.085 --> 00:45:28.065
that this is really interesting
that you talk about dorsal i e.

00:45:28.650 --> 00:45:31.470
Effectively a bit of a,
almost what a collapsed state.

00:45:32.370 --> 00:45:37.560
But then that somehow being able to
be parlayed into a ventricle state

00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:39.900
almost like you can correct me.

00:45:39.930 --> 00:45:41.610
So I'm asking this, I'm not stating this.

00:45:42.120 --> 00:45:50.910
Would it be a really interesting, clever
way of biology to say, okay, we've evolved

00:45:50.915 --> 00:45:54.330
from simply reptilian brain amygdala.

00:45:54.540 --> 00:45:58.380
Fight, flight, freeze tells the
body to create cortisol act.

00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:00.210
Don't think, okay, fine.

00:46:00.210 --> 00:46:04.080
If, if, if, if the elephant's
exploding out of the bush, that's good.

00:46:04.500 --> 00:46:07.590
But if you now see that this is something
that's gonna go on for a while and,

00:46:07.620 --> 00:46:13.170
and, and this is going to be your life
for a bit, this is your situation that

00:46:13.230 --> 00:46:17.100
you can maybe bypass that amygdala in
that cortisol, which is gonna stop you

00:46:17.100 --> 00:46:21.330
from thinking that's its job and somehow
get back to your prefrontal cortex

00:46:21.630 --> 00:46:27.210
where you can now begin to strategize
without the benefit of oxytocin.

00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:31.530
So, you know, oxy, with, with Horse
boy method, for example, we, we rely

00:46:31.530 --> 00:46:35.580
on oxytocin, rhythmic rocking motion of
the hips to sort of bypass the amygdala.

00:46:36.210 --> 00:46:39.720
But what's inter intriguing to me with
what you are saying there, is that

00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:44.700
maybe there's a way, is it true that one
could find a way to bypass the amygdala

00:46:44.910 --> 00:46:46.650
that's not dependent on oxytocin?

00:46:47.310 --> 00:46:49.830
Because ob obviously, if
you're in under extreme threat,

00:46:49.830 --> 00:46:51.150
what oxytocin can you find?

00:46:51.155 --> 00:46:54.300
There's gonna be no feel good
hormone available to you.

00:46:55.080 --> 00:47:01.020
Yet somehow your nervous system can
sort of override that default and give

00:47:01.020 --> 00:47:02.430
you access to your prefrontal cortex.

00:47:02.430 --> 00:47:06.510
So you can make some plan, some
reason, some logic and, and, and

00:47:06.510 --> 00:47:10.740
emotionally regulate, you know,
not overreact, not underreact, feel

00:47:10.740 --> 00:47:11.970
your way through the situation.

00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:22.050
Is that polyvagal survival sort of
at its most functionally extreme?

00:47:22.050 --> 00:47:24.150
Or it's

00:47:24.390 --> 00:47:25.440
Rebecca Bailey: another
way to look at it though.

00:47:25.445 --> 00:47:29.880
Another way to look at it, and again,
this is the simplistic view, is

00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:33.870
that your nervous system takes over
because if the brain really clicked

00:47:33.870 --> 00:47:35.370
in, it would go into panic state.

00:47:35.850 --> 00:47:36.090
Right.

00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:42.960
So you're, you're, I mean this is,
again, is this, I mean, Sue Carter, Dr.

00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.980
Porter's wife is the one that,
isolated oxytocin and vasopressin

00:47:46.980 --> 00:47:49.680
and she'd be really interesting
to talk to cuz she could, she'll

00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:53.070
take us into the real biology.

00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:57.540
But from my perspective, when, and I
know this is part of polyvagal theory,

00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:02.460
is that when you're in a sort of
dorsal activated state, dysregulated

00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:06.210
with dorsal or sympathetic, you
cannot access the cerebral cortex.

00:48:06.240 --> 00:48:06.480
Right.

00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:07.250
You can't think of it.

00:48:07.250 --> 00:48:07.490
Yeah.

00:48:07.620 --> 00:48:08.040
At all.

00:48:08.640 --> 00:48:13.650
So I would contend that, and I
say this to some of my clients,

00:48:13.650 --> 00:48:17.640
that your body and brain.

00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:22.710
You know, you're, you're, it is time to
tell your brain, I got this in my body.

00:48:22.710 --> 00:48:25.710
Or tell your body I got this
when the brain's hijacking.

00:48:26.010 --> 00:48:29.760
Cuz I don't think the cerebral
cortex comes into play.

00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:34.350
I think that the horror of the
situation where there no is no

00:48:34.350 --> 00:48:38.160
escape is obvious and, and your
body kind of has to handle it.

00:48:38.550 --> 00:48:41.070
I don't know if that
makes sense, but is it

00:48:41.070 --> 00:48:46.200
Rupert Isaacson: something like, on the
most extreme level, let's say people

00:48:46.200 --> 00:48:49.200
have watched wildlife documentaries or
you might have, you know, been on safari

00:48:49.830 --> 00:48:53.910
or you might have seen wolves pulling
down a, a deer or something like that.

00:48:53.910 --> 00:48:54.000
Yep.

00:48:54.180 --> 00:48:58.140
and but the, the obvious one would
be like lions pulling down a wallaby

00:48:58.140 --> 00:48:59.670
store while dog pulling down a wallaby.

00:49:00.300 --> 00:49:01.620
And I've certainly seen that.

00:49:01.680 --> 00:49:08.040
And one of the things that one sees
is when the animal goes, okay, shit,

00:49:08.160 --> 00:49:09.990
actually it's, I'm just fucked now.

00:49:10.650 --> 00:49:10.740
Yep.

00:49:10.950 --> 00:49:14.760
It's like they enter Ohio State
and they go, alright fine.

00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:15.300
Fair enough.

00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:19.110
And it's almost, and it seems that their,
their pain and their panic and all of

00:49:19.110 --> 00:49:23.010
that is overridden and they're in complete
detachment and they're sort of looking

00:49:23.010 --> 00:49:24.510
at what's going on, going, alright.

00:49:24.510 --> 00:49:24.690
Right.

00:49:24.690 --> 00:49:27.270
Well I guess that's my
body, but do what you want.

00:49:27.660 --> 00:49:28.890
I'm on my way out.

00:49:29.010 --> 00:49:32.220
It's vaguely sort of, and, and you,
you, you can see this happening

00:49:32.700 --> 00:49:35.640
and certainly people report this.

00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:37.320
Is that what's going on in the.

00:49:38.520 --> 00:49:39.000
Rebecca Bailey: It is.

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.930
And what we talk about is, and
this is the vagal break going on,

00:49:42.930 --> 00:49:44.430
your heart rate gets really slow.

00:49:44.430 --> 00:49:49.320
But what you also does, the vagal
break, sorry, the vagal, I hate always

00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:53.550
explaining that one because I'm so,
like, I'm so, I have a hard time

00:49:53.550 --> 00:49:58.350
explaining it with the exception of
it's like going down a hill and you

00:49:58.350 --> 00:50:04.050
put on the brake to slow your heart
rate, slow down or slow the bike down.

00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.170
That's what, that's what
happens in your body.

00:50:07.170 --> 00:50:08.130
You can slow it down.

00:50:08.130 --> 00:50:10.260
And we talk about a thing called
voodoo death where people can

00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:11.730
get so scared they can die.

00:50:12.060 --> 00:50:16.050
And there's been research, we know
now that when cats, one of the reasons

00:50:16.050 --> 00:50:19.500
people get so concerned about bringing
cats into the veterinarians is some

00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:21.150
of them can actually die of fear.

00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.060
And so now, at least in the
US, they give gabapentin.

00:50:24.330 --> 00:50:29.670
So your body can react very, very
dramatically, into this shutdown stage.

00:50:29.670 --> 00:50:33.750
And there's all sorts of other things
going on, but that's the right, but,

00:50:33.750 --> 00:50:37.710
but what I was gonna say is that years
ago, about five years ago, I went and I

00:50:37.710 --> 00:50:43.620
saw this guy who'd been held captive by
Somalian Pirates and for like many years,

00:50:43.625 --> 00:50:46.770
and I wish I had his name or 985 days.

00:50:47.190 --> 00:50:50.580
And it was so cool because at the time
everybody was talking about hope, hope,

00:50:50.580 --> 00:50:52.620
hope and how hope saves you and all this.

00:50:53.430 --> 00:50:55.800
And he said, every morning I woke up.

00:50:55.800 --> 00:51:00.120
If I started thinking about
hope, I got so depressed.

00:51:00.975 --> 00:51:03.525
By my circumstance that I would shut down.

00:51:03.795 --> 00:51:08.025
So I began to wake up every
single morning and just try to

00:51:08.025 --> 00:51:09.795
stay focused in that moment.

00:51:10.275 --> 00:51:15.225
And I really like, that's, see, that's
what I heard from these other people.

00:51:15.225 --> 00:51:19.395
See, I think there's a huge difference
between being held captive, being

00:51:19.395 --> 00:51:22.005
restricted, your body restricted.

00:51:23.055 --> 00:51:25.215
I think there's a difference
in the trauma, the way your

00:51:25.215 --> 00:51:26.685
body interprets trauma.

00:51:26.685 --> 00:51:28.455
And I think it's also
different with horses.

00:51:28.695 --> 00:51:33.315
The horses that are, are, are
broke through the old styles.

00:51:33.555 --> 00:51:37.545
They're, I mean, my horses,
we have a heard of like 14.

00:51:37.550 --> 00:51:41.235
They're not all mine, but they're
a little feisty, little boogers.

00:51:41.235 --> 00:51:43.725
You know, they got their own
personalities and you can see it.

00:51:43.725 --> 00:51:47.385
Even people that don't know
horses can see it with them.

00:51:47.385 --> 00:51:52.155
And they have been from very early
on, been gentle in the, you know,

00:51:52.215 --> 00:51:55.305
it's been, and you know, I, they've
just, it's, they're different

00:51:55.305 --> 00:51:56.835
and you see them differently.

00:51:57.105 --> 00:52:00.975
And I do think there's this huge
difference between being like you in

00:52:00.975 --> 00:52:06.885
that boarding school, if you had sat
there and if your brain had been allowed

00:52:06.890 --> 00:52:10.305
to say, Rupert, this is messed up.

00:52:10.335 --> 00:52:12.225
You could get killed at any point.

00:52:12.225 --> 00:52:15.375
You know, you could go in that
hospital if you'd really embrace that.

00:52:15.375 --> 00:52:20.715
You could have been really scared and gone
into a clo close disassociative shutdown.

00:52:21.285 --> 00:52:23.835
But instead, your body
said, I got you, dude.

00:52:24.105 --> 00:52:25.005
We got this.

00:52:25.530 --> 00:52:25.830
Right.

00:52:25.890 --> 00:52:28.410
Rupert Isaacson: There was a point where
I went into a shutdown and I couldn't

00:52:28.410 --> 00:52:29.790
get outta bed for about six months.

00:52:29.850 --> 00:52:30.780
And Yeah.

00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:34.350
But what I think happened with that
was that that was my body saying

00:52:34.350 --> 00:52:36.990
this is a way to opt out if I, yeah.

00:52:37.070 --> 00:52:42.690
I I think it knew that, and so it opted
me out for a bit where I could gain

00:52:42.695 --> 00:52:44.040
some resilience and then come back.

00:52:44.190 --> 00:52:44.760
Makes sense.

00:52:45.180 --> 00:52:45.510
Yeah.

00:52:45.515 --> 00:52:48.180
And to other people who, who sort
of went through that, we, we were a

00:52:48.180 --> 00:52:53.610
bit confused at the time of why we
all had this experience, but, yeah.

00:52:53.615 --> 00:52:53.820
And

00:52:53.910 --> 00:52:56.640
Rebecca Bailey: you know, it's funny,
when I work with, and I've kind of

00:52:56.640 --> 00:53:00.510
over the years worked with, we've all
in the field, we all work with very

00:53:00.515 --> 00:53:04.680
challenging situations, but I have
worked with a bunch of unfortunate

00:53:05.220 --> 00:53:08.340
situations where children have been
tied to beds and things like that.

00:53:08.520 --> 00:53:13.350
And maybe it's the people that come to
me, but when I begin to work with them

00:53:13.350 --> 00:53:19.050
here, what I see is the celebration of who
they are and how they got through that.

00:53:19.190 --> 00:53:19.270
Hmm.

00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:25.170
And I do believe, not that I am
this incredible therapist, I think

00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:31.140
what I do right with them is I help
them celebrate the resiliency rather

00:53:31.140 --> 00:53:33.420
than focus on what wasn't there.

00:53:33.720 --> 00:53:35.520
And the horses do that.

00:53:35.550 --> 00:53:40.170
The horses are like, Hey, you know, let
me, let me nibble at your hair right now.

00:53:40.170 --> 00:53:41.910
I don't care what
happened to you last week.

00:53:43.230 --> 00:53:45.425
Rupert Isaacson: Do, do, do you
feel, do you feel that horses

00:53:45.430 --> 00:53:49.505
that were broke in the old style
are effectively held captive?

00:53:49.510 --> 00:53:53.975
It's sort of like they're psychically held
captive, and is that where the in the eye.

00:53:54.740 --> 00:53:55.460
Rebecca Bailey: Yeah, I do.

00:53:55.460 --> 00:53:58.880
And, and I was, you know, I even when I
first started writing on this subject,

00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:03.650
I had some people from the marine world
write to me about whales and all this

00:54:03.650 --> 00:54:05.870
stuff, and you know how they're being.

00:54:05.900 --> 00:54:08.150
And really it starts
messing with your brain.

00:54:08.150 --> 00:54:09.200
I mean, it's really hard.

00:54:09.200 --> 00:54:10.010
It is really hard.

00:54:10.015 --> 00:54:16.070
And yes, I do believe that the
horses whose quote unquote will

00:54:16.070 --> 00:54:20.120
has been broken, that they go
into sort of this dorsal shutdown.

00:54:20.330 --> 00:54:25.370
Now, what's interesting, I'm also working
with a friend of mine from, Australia.

00:54:25.370 --> 00:54:28.850
We're looking at a sound protocol
for horses to see if we can help.

00:54:29.270 --> 00:54:34.010
That is Porges SSP protocol to see
if we can help maybe the horses

00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:36.470
shift out of that total shutdown.

00:54:36.890 --> 00:54:41.780
But I, I believe the best healing in
the entire world is heart to heart.

00:54:41.900 --> 00:54:42.800
I really do.

00:54:43.370 --> 00:54:47.930
Or maybe it's vagal to vagal, but, you
know, I really, really believe that.

00:54:47.930 --> 00:54:53.030
And I believe, I have a horse here whose
head was tied to her leg and she was

00:54:53.030 --> 00:54:57.020
actually one of the horses that came from
one of the guys in the Grateful Dead.

00:54:57.025 --> 00:54:58.760
And it was, did not happen with them.

00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:00.230
It happened before they got her.

00:55:00.500 --> 00:55:02.450
And she is the most reactive.

00:55:02.450 --> 00:55:05.450
Like you come near her ears
go back, and she snaps.

00:55:06.200 --> 00:55:09.170
You have to wait and
approach her in her space.

00:55:09.410 --> 00:55:13.700
And then she's like, She'll do
anything for you, but she will

00:55:13.700 --> 00:55:16.340
always, she's 36 and looks dynamite.

00:55:16.640 --> 00:55:20.150
And her thing is like, do you
respect me as you come near me?

00:55:20.150 --> 00:55:21.620
That's all she asks.

00:55:21.740 --> 00:55:22.940
It's really wild.

00:55:22.940 --> 00:55:25.610
And she's taught so many
people about boundaries.

00:55:26.660 --> 00:55:26.960
I want

00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:29.990
Rupert Isaacson: to ask you, I want to
go to boundaries actually in a minute.

00:55:30.470 --> 00:55:33.820
I want to return to the
idea of sympathetic and

00:55:33.820 --> 00:55:35.230
parasympathetic nervous system.

00:55:35.740 --> 00:55:37.090
there's a lot of confusion here.

00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:40.360
I was very confused for quite a long
time, like, why would they call it

00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:44.830
sympathetic when it doesn't seem
very sympathetic and parasympathetic?

00:55:44.835 --> 00:55:45.010
Why?

00:55:45.940 --> 00:55:46.420
Okay.

00:55:47.170 --> 00:55:52.150
Are those two things, let's
say sympathetic fear response,

00:55:52.720 --> 00:55:58.510
parasympathetic, happy going about
my business, serotonin, e oxytocin,

00:55:58.510 --> 00:56:04.720
e functional, are they part of the
vagus nerve or are they something

00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:08.350
separate that interacts with the vagus?

00:56:09.595 --> 00:56:12.565
Rebecca Bailey: So to make you feel
better when anyone asks these questions,

00:56:12.570 --> 00:56:15.505
I go to horror in my, in my system.

00:56:15.505 --> 00:56:17.125
I'm like, oh my God, I
can't get this right.

00:56:17.125 --> 00:56:19.375
I get confused cuz the
two words drive me crazy.

00:56:19.705 --> 00:56:25.075
What I do know about the parasympathetic,
yes, they are part and parasympathetic

00:56:25.075 --> 00:56:29.005
is the, rest digest, the shutdown piece.

00:56:29.215 --> 00:56:30.085
Sympathetic.

00:56:30.090 --> 00:56:34.285
I look at more of the fight flight, the
sort of conscious pieces that we have.

00:56:34.495 --> 00:56:36.565
But yes, they are part of the vagal.

00:56:36.925 --> 00:56:39.625
the vagal pathways are part of that.

00:56:39.685 --> 00:56:43.075
I actually prefer to talk about
the autonomic nervous system as

00:56:43.080 --> 00:56:48.115
a whole because then I don't get
stuck in the parasympathetic.

00:56:48.115 --> 00:56:52.735
But honestly, when anybody in the
audience or something says, Dr.

00:56:52.735 --> 00:56:55.465
Bi, could you please
explain parasympathetic?

00:56:55.675 --> 00:56:58.435
I go, oh my God, I'm back
in my boarding school.

00:56:58.555 --> 00:57:02.635
Right know, and I'm gonna get yelled
at and have to write parasympathetic 15

00:57:02.635 --> 00:57:06.265
times on the chalkboard, you know, until

00:57:06.265 --> 00:57:08.485
Rupert Isaacson: I get the sensory
issue of the chalkboard as well.

00:57:08.485 --> 00:57:09.147
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:09.152 --> 00:57:09.445
Rebecca Bailey: Totally.

00:57:09.445 --> 00:57:10.495
The cur and the cursive.

00:57:10.555 --> 00:57:12.865
And I can't do cursive cause I'm dyslexic.

00:57:12.865 --> 00:57:16.255
So the os go on and on and on,
and then they slap your little

00:57:16.255 --> 00:57:18.115
hands and like, forget it.

00:57:18.355 --> 00:57:21.055
But yes, so it's, it's
all part of the autonomic.

00:57:21.325 --> 00:57:22.975
Am I giving you a flashback, Rupert?

00:57:22.975 --> 00:57:23.095
Are

00:57:23.205 --> 00:57:25.465
Rupert Isaacson: you, did
you see me holding my head?

00:57:25.585 --> 00:57:25.855
Yeah.

00:57:25.855 --> 00:57:25.915
Yeah.

00:57:26.815 --> 00:57:31.390
the, the, the question though really
for me is, It seems that okay.

00:57:31.390 --> 00:57:31.750
Yes.

00:57:31.960 --> 00:57:34.480
What I'm liking about what you
say is that it's not simplistic.

00:57:34.750 --> 00:57:36.970
and it's nuanced because we
know that that's human life.

00:57:37.330 --> 00:57:39.370
So say for example, I've got
a thing which I like to do.

00:57:39.370 --> 00:57:40.930
I really like to cross country ride.

00:57:40.930 --> 00:57:44.830
I always have, and I like to, I grew
up fox hunting and it's always been my

00:57:44.830 --> 00:57:49.630
greatest love and I've smashed myself up
a few times, so I know what can happen.

00:57:50.170 --> 00:57:53.140
And when I'm going in at a
fence, I'm definitely in fear.

00:57:53.950 --> 00:57:59.770
However, overriding that fear
is an excitement and a pleasure.

00:57:59.775 --> 00:58:06.700
So I'm getting sort of a dopamine with
cortisol, with a little bit of oxytocin if

00:58:06.700 --> 00:58:08.680
the rhythm is nice of the horse coming in.

00:58:09.100 --> 00:58:11.350
And then, oh my God, thank God I survived.

00:58:11.410 --> 00:58:14.350
You know, as I hit a, why am
I even doing this to myself?

00:58:14.350 --> 00:58:16.450
And then I look up a shit and
there's the next one coming.

00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:19.210
And then of course, at the end
of the day, I'm like, I don't

00:58:19.210 --> 00:58:20.080
really want to do that again.

00:58:20.860 --> 00:58:20.890
Are

00:58:20.895 --> 00:58:22.840
Rebecca Bailey: you drag
hunting or live hunting

00:58:22.990 --> 00:58:23.650
Rupert Isaacson: these days?

00:58:23.650 --> 00:58:24.550
I'm drag hunting.

00:58:24.640 --> 00:58:27.010
And, and that happened because, oh gosh.

00:58:27.100 --> 00:58:35.440
back in 2005 or six, I was bringing a
group of Kalahari, Bushman Coan to the

00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:40.480
United Nations and the US State Department
as part of the work we were doing to help

00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:45.575
them gain legal access to their, legal
title, to their ancestral land, which

00:58:45.575 --> 00:58:46.985
they've been illegally evicted from.

00:58:47.585 --> 00:58:48.155
And I.

00:58:48.695 --> 00:58:52.025
Had a whole background with this
and we found ourselves going,

00:58:52.535 --> 00:58:54.665
coast to coast, in America.

00:58:55.205 --> 00:58:57.755
we started in Hollywood
with artists for amnesty.

00:58:57.905 --> 00:58:59.885
Basically just trying to make
as much noise as we could.

00:59:00.185 --> 00:59:03.875
And then I wanted to stop in the Navajo
reservation, the Hopi reservation,

00:59:03.880 --> 00:59:09.245
because I wanted them to meet indigenous
people who had gotten their land

00:59:09.245 --> 00:59:11.885
back and basically could talk about,
okay, well here are the problems

00:59:11.885 --> 00:59:13.415
that come when you're successful.

00:59:13.985 --> 00:59:16.295
And we were camped in Canyon DeChea.

00:59:16.475 --> 00:59:18.995
I, you know, dunno if you know
where that is, but it's the second

00:59:18.995 --> 00:59:23.375
largest natural canyon in, in the
US after obviously the Grand Canyon.

00:59:23.555 --> 00:59:24.935
But it's, it's, it's in a similar area.

00:59:24.935 --> 00:59:28.595
It's on the Navajo reservation in
Arizona and it's really, really deep.

00:59:28.655 --> 00:59:32.585
And if you go down there, you can
only access it in most of the, of

00:59:32.590 --> 00:59:34.235
the canyon by foot or horseback.

00:59:34.415 --> 00:59:37.235
there's a little bit you can access at
the end on by vehicle, but you can't

00:59:37.240 --> 00:59:42.095
really get in and there's a very, very
traditional life on that valley floor.

00:59:43.115 --> 00:59:46.295
and we were down there camping and a
and a and a medicine man showed up and

00:59:46.295 --> 00:59:50.435
said, oh, I've heard that you guys are
here, to help sort of get the land back.

00:59:50.435 --> 00:59:52.685
Would you guys like to do a sweat lodge?

00:59:53.075 --> 00:59:54.425
And we went, yeah, absolutely.

00:59:54.845 --> 00:59:58.595
And we did the sweat lodge praying
for the return of the land.

00:59:58.595 --> 01:00:01.145
And at the end of that,
it's actually 2004.

01:00:01.145 --> 01:00:01.535
That's right.

01:00:01.895 --> 01:00:05.225
the, the med, Samantha, does anyone else
have anything that they want to pray for?

01:00:05.495 --> 01:00:08.225
And I said, yes, my son just
got diagnosed with autism.

01:00:08.645 --> 01:00:11.465
So we did a round of prayers for that.

01:00:11.990 --> 01:00:14.960
When we came outta the sweat
lodge, he said to me, do you hunt?

01:00:15.770 --> 01:00:19.370
And I said, I do, but maybe not
in a way that you understand.

01:00:19.370 --> 01:00:20.210
He said, that's not important.

01:00:20.270 --> 01:00:23.720
He said, I'm just getting it loud
and clear from the spirit world that

01:00:23.720 --> 01:00:26.960
you have to stop and it's somehow
tied up with your son's autism.

01:00:27.110 --> 01:00:28.220
And that's all I can tell you.

01:00:28.700 --> 01:00:30.530
And I went, oh shit.

01:00:30.710 --> 01:00:32.390
Of course, of course.

01:00:32.390 --> 01:00:34.670
The thing that I love the most is
the thing that I have to give up.

01:00:34.670 --> 01:00:35.480
Of course, of course.

01:00:35.600 --> 01:00:36.440
That makes perfect sense.

01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:36.980
Okay, fuck it.

01:00:37.070 --> 01:00:37.310
Right.

01:00:37.340 --> 01:00:38.120
Okay, I'll do it.

01:00:38.690 --> 01:00:41.750
and at the time I was actually,
it was part of my job.

01:00:41.750 --> 01:00:46.280
I was, I was paid, it's a
great gig to go round for the

01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:49.520
equestrian magazines and hunt with
different hunts and write them up.

01:00:49.700 --> 01:00:50.240
I loved it.

01:00:50.690 --> 01:00:53.090
And I used to work with
the American Masters of Fox

01:00:53.090 --> 01:00:54.860
House Association to do this.

01:00:54.860 --> 01:00:57.950
And my great friend Dennis Foi might
be listening to this, Hey Dennis.

01:00:58.340 --> 01:01:00.290
he was always suspicious of
me cause I'm such a hippie.

01:01:00.950 --> 01:01:04.130
you know, said, I called him and
I told him what had happened.

01:01:04.130 --> 01:01:06.560
He said, I always knew you would
always become an anti ruper.

01:01:06.680 --> 01:01:09.350
I knew you were deep down, you
know, just an anti, you'd just

01:01:09.350 --> 01:01:10.670
turn on us and you'd betray us.

01:01:10.675 --> 01:01:15.140
I'm like, Dennis, it's not that, you know,
it's, it's, it's a completely personal

01:01:15.140 --> 01:01:17.660
decision, but I can't argue with this.

01:01:17.660 --> 01:01:19.010
My gut tells me it's absolutely true.

01:01:19.550 --> 01:01:23.420
As I was having this conversation with
him, this is in Texas where I used to

01:01:23.420 --> 01:01:26.780
live, and it, it's not like England
where there's a lot of foxes around.

01:01:27.140 --> 01:01:28.430
there's a lot of coyotes.

01:01:28.730 --> 01:01:30.350
And coyotes don't tolerate foxes much.

01:01:30.350 --> 01:01:32.990
So when you see foxes in Texas,
you actually notice, you see

01:01:32.990 --> 01:01:34.700
maybe like one a year, two a year.

01:01:36.350 --> 01:01:41.390
I'm sitting on my front porch at night
and the light is off the front and

01:01:41.390 --> 01:01:45.980
this fox just comes walking straight
out of the dark, stands in the

01:01:45.980 --> 01:01:53.000
porch, flight, looks at me and goes,
and I just hold the phone forward.

01:01:53.060 --> 01:01:56.480
I said, Dennis, this is what's going
on right now while we're having this

01:01:56.480 --> 01:02:01.490
conversation, so if you think that this
is some kind of hippie bullshit, and he

01:02:01.490 --> 01:02:03.330
goes, well, right Ruth, maybe you know.

01:02:03.865 --> 01:02:07.865
And anyway, so I love that, that
all I do these days is drag hunt.

01:02:07.895 --> 01:02:08.285
Yes.

01:02:08.285 --> 01:02:11.405
Which is, I I do the simulated
type of fox hunt where Yeah.

01:02:11.405 --> 01:02:11.406
Yeah.

01:02:11.406 --> 01:02:12.365
We're hunting a few.

01:02:12.745 --> 01:02:14.245
We don't hunt a live animal anymore.

01:02:14.425 --> 01:02:14.645
No.

01:02:14.825 --> 01:02:15.035
Rebecca Bailey: Yeah.

01:02:15.035 --> 01:02:18.995
We used to, there was a big thing where
I grew up in Lincoln, Massachusetts

01:02:18.995 --> 01:02:24.335
and the only, I, I went on a few, and
the last one I did, this is awful.

01:02:24.335 --> 01:02:29.165
And all your listeners are probably like,
get half of them have hung up or whatever.

01:02:29.465 --> 01:02:31.325
they, it got a farmer's cat.

01:02:31.445 --> 01:02:33.125
Ooh, dogs not good.

01:02:33.155 --> 01:02:35.495
And that was really, that
was sort of like tough.

01:02:35.495 --> 01:02:40.295
But I had a mayor, my mayor Locke,
who used to the hunt master Quincy

01:02:40.295 --> 01:02:43.445
Adams, old, old Boston guy, would
actually borrow cuz she loved to

01:02:43.445 --> 01:02:45.185
go out so much in the front, man.

01:02:45.185 --> 01:02:48.935
She was like, she was so that
horse was a wonder horse.

01:02:48.935 --> 01:02:51.155
But that is an amazing story.

01:02:51.160 --> 01:02:54.485
And we, you and I should swap some
stories cuz I got a couple that I'm

01:02:54.485 --> 01:02:58.175
not gonna go into now that are like,
like where does that come from?

01:02:58.175 --> 01:03:01.265
You know, that whole
thing of whatever it is.

01:03:01.265 --> 01:03:05.225
I pretend that I'm not woowoo all the
time and I like, but there's a part

01:03:05.225 --> 01:03:07.925
of me that's like, please the fox came

01:03:07.925 --> 01:03:08.555
Rupert Isaacson: out and barked.

01:03:08.555 --> 01:03:09.245
Yeah, no.

01:03:09.250 --> 01:03:11.625
As, as my friend, you know,
Warwick Shilla, Warwick.

01:03:12.045 --> 01:03:15.645
And for those who listeners who, dunno,
Warwick Shilla, go now to Warwick.

01:03:15.975 --> 01:03:17.325
Switch off my silly old pocket.

01:03:17.355 --> 01:03:18.375
No, don't switch off Rebecca.

01:03:18.675 --> 01:03:23.505
But afterwards go to, the Journey on
podcast and listen to Warwick Sheller.

01:03:23.715 --> 01:03:26.325
Yet he has a, a really good expression.

01:03:26.325 --> 01:03:27.585
He says, you can't fight the woo.

01:03:28.730 --> 01:03:33.210
Rebecca Bailey: It's, it's, you know,
it's, it's actually really, I mean, I was

01:03:33.210 --> 01:03:37.260
at a Grateful Dead show years ago, and I
was walking down and I grabbed a friend of

01:03:37.260 --> 01:03:39.600
mine and I said, watch out was backstage.

01:03:39.605 --> 01:03:40.770
I said, oh my gosh, watch out.

01:03:40.775 --> 01:03:41.640
It's a turtle.

01:03:41.910 --> 01:03:43.860
And she leans down, she goes,
what are you talking about?

01:03:43.860 --> 01:03:45.930
It's a piece of, it's a piece of tissue.

01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:47.610
Like it was a, a paper towel.

01:03:47.970 --> 01:03:52.170
So we walk a few more st steps,
and I'll be damned there, it was a

01:03:52.170 --> 01:03:57.630
turtle that people had stepped on
in the, I mean like, like, kinda

01:03:58.230 --> 01:03:59.490
like, where did that come from?

01:03:59.490 --> 01:04:04.410
So you can't fight the woo, but you
also have to understand that there's

01:04:04.410 --> 01:04:09.000
a lot of people I need to ground
myself because if I get too much

01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.240
in the woo, I go flying off in my
spaceship and nobody would understand

01:04:12.240 --> 01:04:12.480
Rupert Isaacson: me.

01:04:12.780 --> 01:04:13.080
Right.

01:04:13.080 --> 01:04:15.420
But life has a habit of grounding
us in the woo, doesn't it?

01:04:15.420 --> 01:04:15.510
Yes.

01:04:15.510 --> 01:04:18.840
I mean, it's out of the woo rather,
you know, from the woo to the poo.

01:04:19.710 --> 01:04:20.010
Yeah.

01:04:20.250 --> 01:04:20.580
Yeah.

01:04:20.700 --> 01:04:20.850
Right.

01:04:21.090 --> 01:04:21.300
True.

01:04:21.750 --> 01:04:25.290
And that actually brings us back to, to,
to what I want was in the middle of asking

01:04:25.290 --> 01:04:33.300
you that, this nuanced dance between
these different aspects of the vagal and

01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:37.290
sympathetic, the autonomic nervous system,
as you'd say, but with all these different

01:04:37.295 --> 01:04:41.970
bits, hence the word poly, seems, you
know, I, I've heard people say, oh, if, if

01:04:41.970 --> 01:04:46.080
you're in sympathetic, it's bad if you're
in, you know, parasympathetic, it's good.

01:04:46.080 --> 01:04:49.410
And I'm thinking, well, when I'm
going into that fence, I'm, I'm

01:04:49.410 --> 01:04:51.510
dancing in between those things.

01:04:52.350 --> 01:04:57.300
In a way that allows me to respond
appropriately to the fence.

01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.320
I have to jump where I'm Yes.

01:05:00.380 --> 01:05:02.040
And you do you see, you
see what I'm saying?

01:05:02.220 --> 01:05:05.460
It, it seems that it's neither
bad nor good in that moment.

01:05:05.460 --> 01:05:09.690
It's bits of both that allow, give
me some tools to get the job done

01:05:09.695 --> 01:05:11.430
right in a way that with some vent

01:05:12.090 --> 01:05:12.780
Rebecca Bailey: oversight.

01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:16.620
And, and it's funny you say, sometimes
what I show when I'm trying to explain

01:05:16.620 --> 01:05:21.990
vagal v I'll show a really high level
jumper, go going into a fence on a

01:05:21.995 --> 01:05:24.570
horse and you know, they're together.

01:05:24.575 --> 01:05:26.070
They're just really together.

01:05:26.070 --> 01:05:28.050
They get to the base and they release.

01:05:28.650 --> 01:05:32.725
And then there's this beautiful moment,
where they reconnect on the other side.

01:05:32.725 --> 01:05:35.275
And that's what I, it is funny you would
say the jump, cuz I always think of

01:05:35.275 --> 01:05:40.705
that, of how, at least to me, that really
explains the dance of the nervous system

01:05:41.035 --> 01:05:42.835
and the dance of two nervous systems.

01:05:42.835 --> 01:05:45.925
How does that rider give
the message to the horse?

01:05:45.955 --> 01:05:48.865
It's not about dominance, it's
about I'm up here, I'm with you,

01:05:48.865 --> 01:05:51.205
I'm connected, and vice versa.

01:05:51.745 --> 01:05:53.875
And, and I think that's the nuance.

01:05:54.415 --> 01:05:55.045
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah.

01:05:55.045 --> 01:05:58.675
So, so, so we don't have to feel,
we're getting it right or we're

01:05:58.680 --> 01:06:04.375
getting it wrong with which bit of
the, of autonomic nervous system

01:06:04.375 --> 01:06:06.595
are we in this particular moment.

01:06:08.260 --> 01:06:09.430
Rebecca Bailey: I, I don't think so.

01:06:09.435 --> 01:06:12.670
I think what it is, is it's what
it means to you in your body.

01:06:12.670 --> 01:06:16.360
Like what you said, Rupert, you know,
you go off to the hunt and you're scared,

01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:17.920
but you're excited, but you're not.

01:06:18.250 --> 01:06:22.180
So when I used to do horse shows, if I
showed up and I was scared to death, I

01:06:22.185 --> 01:06:26.140
would do terribly If I showed up and I was
excited, I would do really beautifully.

01:06:26.530 --> 01:06:30.850
And I, you know, there was like this
disconnect between understanding that

01:06:30.850 --> 01:06:32.920
my body was feeling the same thing.

01:06:32.980 --> 01:06:36.910
I, I go back, look back at it and I'm
like, oh, that's, you know, the day that I

01:06:36.910 --> 01:06:39.040
crashed over all the Oxfords or whatever.

01:06:39.430 --> 01:06:44.100
So I think that, , it's what it means
to you and in my dear friend Deb

01:06:44.100 --> 01:06:49.440
Dana's words, who is someone that's
written a lot on Steven Porges in a

01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:54.240
way that people understand is really,
befriending your nervous system.

01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:57.930
Like making friends with your
individual nervous system.

01:06:58.380 --> 01:07:04.740
And this good, bad, I mean, yes, it is
a lot to be in a dorsal overload all

01:07:04.740 --> 01:07:09.420
the time can lead to immune problems,
sleep problems, digestion problems.

01:07:09.420 --> 01:07:11.040
So, you know, we gotta understand that.

01:07:11.490 --> 01:07:15.960
But dorsal activity can also
be responsible for, as I said

01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.270
earlier, a mobility without fear.

01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:22.860
To be present without fear, you gotta
have some dorsal rest and digest going on.

01:07:23.250 --> 01:07:26.880
So that said, we, we have
a polyvagal, a carousel.

01:07:27.210 --> 01:07:30.990
It shows the horses going round and
round and when you're regulated,

01:07:30.990 --> 01:07:33.090
they're going around and nobody notices.

01:07:33.480 --> 01:07:36.990
When it's dysregulated,
it's all like jumpy.

01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:42.000
I always say at this in my old age,
I would like to be in that cart.

01:07:42.030 --> 01:07:44.550
That doesn't go up and down,
that just goes smoothly.

01:07:44.550 --> 01:07:46.170
But none of us can do that.

01:07:46.175 --> 01:07:47.250
That's impossible.

01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:52.110
We are all gotta, you know, you gotta have
all these different pieces happening else.

01:07:52.110 --> 01:07:53.100
You're not alive.

01:07:53.400 --> 01:07:55.200
Rupert Isaacson: And I guess that
also makes sense if you think of

01:07:55.200 --> 01:07:56.970
the hunter-gatherer human context.

01:07:56.970 --> 01:08:00.900
If you are, if you're walking
in the bush, chances are there's

01:08:00.900 --> 01:08:01.890
always something hunting you.

01:08:02.740 --> 01:08:03.030
Yeah.

01:08:03.035 --> 01:08:05.220
Chances are you are
probably hunting something.

01:08:05.820 --> 01:08:08.790
Chances are you are also
looking for wild foods.

01:08:09.240 --> 01:08:13.230
Chances are if you make the wrong
decision about those wild foods, you get

01:08:13.230 --> 01:08:17.730
the toxic doppelganger and poison your
family and that, so you, you are cons

01:08:18.030 --> 01:08:23.640
and there's elephants around and you're
a bit worried about drought, but, oh

01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:25.080
look, the Mong Gogo nuts are doing well.

01:08:25.080 --> 01:08:29.070
You know, it, it seems that whatever
you're doing in life that, that the

01:08:29.070 --> 01:08:34.590
human condition, probably the condition
of being alive, no matter what species

01:08:34.590 --> 01:08:39.090
you are, is always seems to be about
this dance, this constant dance between

01:08:39.870 --> 01:08:43.800
fear and respite and happiness and.

01:08:44.655 --> 01:08:49.095
Moments of terror, and then that feeling
of, oh, I survived it, and that's cool.

01:08:49.095 --> 01:08:51.975
And I used my skills and Oh, I wonder
what the next thing is gonna be.

01:08:51.975 --> 01:08:55.779
And oh, here's a philosophical question
and one is it's always a flux, right?

01:08:56.559 --> 01:08:56.799
Yeah.

01:08:57.069 --> 01:08:58.389
Rebecca Bailey: It is always a flux.

01:08:58.389 --> 01:09:01.929
And the thing is, I do believe we
have to get way out of our head

01:09:02.349 --> 01:09:06.699
way more, because as we know,
there's a, a really international

01:09:06.699 --> 01:09:08.739
crisis of loneliness in this world.

01:09:08.739 --> 01:09:10.689
People feel lonely and isolated.

01:09:10.694 --> 01:09:12.579
We've got our faces in our cell phones.

01:09:12.609 --> 01:09:16.119
I happen to like my cell phone,
but I've gotta remind myself to

01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:20.439
leave it behind when I go out for
a day sometimes, just because.

01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:26.979
But we live in this world where
we're so lonely, so in so many areas

01:09:26.984 --> 01:09:30.849
because people have lost this ability
to connect with each other and to

01:09:30.849 --> 01:09:32.739
honor each other's nervous system.

01:09:33.129 --> 01:09:35.499
So, you know, you're in the store
and the person behind you is being

01:09:35.559 --> 01:09:40.749
a complete jerk to the teller or
whatever that is, to the cashier.

01:09:41.049 --> 01:09:45.339
And you know, your job is to really
regulate yourself enough that

01:09:45.339 --> 01:09:49.119
maybe you might just co-regulate
that guy or girl or woman or they

01:09:49.119 --> 01:09:50.679
in front of you, whatever it is.

01:09:51.249 --> 01:09:55.299
But, but you also, You have
to remember that that can also

01:09:55.299 --> 01:09:56.829
impact you as well, right?

01:09:56.829 --> 01:10:00.489
You can walk outta the store and get
in the car and shout at the dog, right?

01:10:00.489 --> 01:10:01.929
And then you're like, wait a second.

01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:03.339
It wasn't the dog.

01:10:03.339 --> 01:10:06.279
I just, this person was
screaming at the teller.

01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:09.219
So just understanding the
importance, it's in the body.

01:10:09.219 --> 01:10:10.779
See, I think that's the thing.

01:10:10.839 --> 01:10:15.789
It's in the body first, and then
the brain fills in the blanks.

01:10:15.879 --> 01:10:16.899
That's what I think.

01:10:18.519 --> 01:10:19.239
It's like what?

01:10:19.239 --> 01:10:24.369
You know, so they talk, you know, Bessel
talks about that trauma lives in the body.

01:10:24.369 --> 01:10:29.109
And it took me a really long time I used
to say to all, and I still do say this,

01:10:29.139 --> 01:10:33.189
sometimes trauma's not what, it's not
who you are, it's what happened to you.

01:10:33.249 --> 01:10:33.879
Okay?

01:10:34.089 --> 01:10:35.859
But then actually, Dr.

01:10:35.859 --> 01:10:39.429
Porges and Deb had a conversation
one time with me, said, no, no, no.

01:10:39.434 --> 01:10:40.689
It lives in your body.

01:10:40.839 --> 01:10:42.219
It's living in there.

01:10:43.149 --> 01:10:48.399
And I still bel, I understand that
and I believe it and I accept it.

01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:53.469
But I do think until we reduce shame
from people and the sense of some sort

01:10:53.469 --> 01:10:56.739
of a self responsibility, which is
different than what I just said, but

01:10:56.739 --> 01:11:01.029
until we help people move outta shame,
people get stuck in a dorsal place

01:11:01.029 --> 01:11:03.369
and they get immersed in their story.

01:11:03.939 --> 01:11:06.519
Because shame is what holds us down.

01:11:06.819 --> 01:11:07.719
We know that.

01:11:08.739 --> 01:11:09.939
We absolutely know that.

01:11:09.939 --> 01:11:13.269
And I actually don't think
horses experience shame.

01:11:13.599 --> 01:11:18.189
I know my dog sort of does in a funny
way, but I don't think horses do that.

01:11:18.189 --> 01:11:21.519
I think they're in the moment so
much that they just go, oh, and,

01:11:21.519 --> 01:11:25.599
and they're nervous system is so
flexible they go onto the next piece.

01:11:26.179 --> 01:11:26.739
Do you think,

01:11:26.739 --> 01:11:28.359
Rupert Isaacson: do you think
that shame is a predator thing?

01:11:29.829 --> 01:11:33.879
Rebecca Bailey: You know, it's
interesting, it's so cool in some ways.

01:11:33.884 --> 01:11:39.819
Is it, or is it a predator's tool
to, and but how would that happen

01:11:39.819 --> 01:11:41.619
in the, in the animal kingdom?

01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:42.559
, well I dunno.

01:11:42.729 --> 01:11:44.469
Rupert Isaacson: Might it be,
let's say you're a wolf pack.

01:11:45.579 --> 01:11:45.909
Yeah.

01:11:45.999 --> 01:11:49.629
And one wolf isn't pulling their
weight or something like that.

01:11:49.899 --> 01:11:54.819
And we know that a wolf pack can actually
turn on a pack member and annihilate

01:11:54.819 --> 01:11:57.519
them in that sort of a, a situation.

01:11:57.789 --> 01:12:02.679
Do you think that shame is
a tool that predators you?

01:12:02.679 --> 01:12:06.279
And this is just coming to my mind
hearing you say, maybe, maybe some

01:12:06.279 --> 01:12:08.589
listeners might want to chime in on this.

01:12:08.589 --> 01:12:10.419
There might be some zoologists out there.

01:12:11.139 --> 01:12:11.619
Yeah.

01:12:11.829 --> 01:12:12.669
Do, do we think Yeah.

01:12:12.669 --> 01:12:13.599
Is that where it comes from?

01:12:13.604 --> 01:12:16.809
Cause as you said, you only said
the dog and then it, it went.

01:12:16.869 --> 01:12:17.199
Oh yeah.

01:12:17.199 --> 01:12:17.649
But you're right.

01:12:17.654 --> 01:12:19.689
I think I've never, I don't
think horses do feel shame.

01:12:19.694 --> 01:12:20.199
I think you're right.

01:12:20.199 --> 01:12:21.189
I, I don't think they do.

01:12:21.759 --> 01:12:22.859
So why feel shame?

01:12:23.304 --> 01:12:23.364
Yeah.

01:12:23.954 --> 01:12:26.994
Rebecca Bailey: So if we look from the
herd, and I would love if you get feedback

01:12:26.994 --> 01:12:32.904
on this, but if you look at it from a herd
connection, shame is an isolating thing.

01:12:32.934 --> 01:12:37.704
You get cast off from the pack,
and as a result, you don't have the

01:12:37.704 --> 01:12:39.774
safety that the pack would give you.

01:12:39.774 --> 01:12:40.494
They're not gonna survive.

01:12:40.494 --> 01:12:44.574
So there may be this, you know, I don't
know that the, that the dog is like,

01:12:44.574 --> 01:12:46.704
oh my God, I feel so bad this happened.

01:12:46.734 --> 01:12:51.864
The dog's nervous system may be saying,
oh shit, something's about to happen here.

01:12:51.954 --> 01:12:52.044
Right.

01:12:52.134 --> 01:12:53.124
You know, I, I don't know.

01:12:53.244 --> 01:12:56.094
You know, my grandmother grew up in
Hawaii and she used to talk about

01:12:56.094 --> 01:13:00.954
the minor birds, how they would be
on opposite branches, and she would

01:13:00.954 --> 01:13:05.394
watch them, like one bird would be all
alone, and the other birds would squash

01:13:05.394 --> 01:13:08.334
and squawk and squawk, and sometimes
they'd all fly off, and other times

01:13:08.334 --> 01:13:10.164
they'd all go and attack this one bird.

01:13:10.404 --> 01:13:10.524
Mm-hmm.

01:13:10.529 --> 01:13:14.694
And she used to tell me about this thing
that she would watch out of her window.

01:13:14.699 --> 01:13:17.694
And I always thought about that,
like, was this bird being shamed?

01:13:18.204 --> 01:13:19.794
You know, what was going on?

01:13:20.154 --> 01:13:23.994
It's just, I don't know, you're pulling
out all these old, like, thoughts of

01:13:23.994 --> 01:13:27.264
mine, Rupert, that I, I have no one
to talk to about half this stuff.

01:13:27.264 --> 01:13:29.724
So thank you for giving
me the opportunity.

01:13:30.084 --> 01:13:32.694
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
let's explore this line.

01:13:32.699 --> 01:13:36.384
So if we, so we are predators,
we can, we can accept that.

01:13:37.164 --> 01:13:37.434
Yeah.

01:13:37.624 --> 01:13:42.684
If, if we are predators and if we
use shame as a tool to sort of make

01:13:42.684 --> 01:13:44.484
people pull together as a team.

01:13:44.864 --> 01:13:50.754
If, if that's, if that's possibly its
basic function, yet it can, of course.

01:13:51.414 --> 01:13:57.624
Un man, it, it, it can do us in as shame
so that if we are shamed, we can also

01:13:58.044 --> 01:14:00.324
be made dysfunctional within the team.

01:14:02.934 --> 01:14:04.674
What do we do about shame?

01:14:04.674 --> 01:14:11.484
How, how, how do we, how, how do we, how
do we dance out of dysfunction with that?

01:14:11.784 --> 01:14:12.734
what are your thoughts?

01:14:12.764 --> 01:14:18.184
Rebecca Bailey: Problem is, is it's been
used to, shame has been used to disempower

01:14:18.184 --> 01:14:20.044
marginalized populations, right?

01:14:20.044 --> 01:14:27.274
And so there's a certain investment
in using shame in certain cultures

01:14:27.274 --> 01:14:29.894
and certain, certain,  groups.

01:14:29.924 --> 01:14:30.674
Absolutely.

01:14:30.674 --> 01:14:35.954
But what we can do clinically,
what we can do with the horses is

01:14:35.954 --> 01:14:42.224
really try to talk about the innate
brilliance of the nervous system, the

01:14:42.224 --> 01:14:44.954
innate, absolute innate brilliance.

01:14:44.954 --> 01:14:50.204
And by understanding that, and that's
why I was so concerned about the word

01:14:50.204 --> 01:14:55.124
faulty neuroception, because to me,
helping people completely understand that

01:14:55.124 --> 01:14:58.514
this is the response in all its glory.

01:14:58.694 --> 01:15:02.324
Maybe it could be different in another
context, but in that moment it's

01:15:02.324 --> 01:15:04.124
what you, it was the best you got.

01:15:04.814 --> 01:15:05.864
And that's okay.

01:15:06.224 --> 01:15:09.284
And then how do you maybe
let yourself learn to receive

01:15:09.284 --> 01:15:11.174
cues of safety going forward?

01:15:12.434 --> 01:15:16.844
But it's so interesting because
shame has been written about forever

01:15:16.844 --> 01:15:18.944
going back to psychoanalytic work.

01:15:19.334 --> 01:15:24.964
It's, it's so much more toxic
than, than blame,  I and guilt.

01:15:24.964 --> 01:15:29.014
And I really believe that it is at
the core of many of our mass shooters,

01:15:29.584 --> 01:15:34.504
that there's this shame in casting
out of the herd that propels them

01:15:34.504 --> 01:15:38.884
to want to act in such a way that
says, don't you ever forget me.

01:15:39.064 --> 01:15:42.064
Don't you ever, you know,
don't you forget who I am?

01:15:42.574 --> 01:15:44.404
And it's really sad.

01:15:44.434 --> 01:15:48.004
I mean, God, that's a whole nother
tangent, but it's just so sad to me.

01:15:48.004 --> 01:15:51.694
When you look at, I've had the,  occasion
of reading some of the profiles

01:15:51.694 --> 01:15:55.864
of mass shooters, and frequently
they're marginalized people that have

01:15:55.864 --> 01:15:57.604
been pushed outta their community.

01:15:58.534 --> 01:16:03.844
I am not in any way justifying the action,
but is there's this shame piece that

01:16:03.844 --> 01:16:05.944
you belong over here and we're here.

01:16:06.274 --> 01:16:09.214
And the acting out is
like, don't you forget me.

01:16:09.484 --> 01:16:11.134
Don't you not know that I'm here.

01:16:11.134 --> 01:16:12.964
Don't you forget that I was here.

01:16:14.014 --> 01:16:15.784
Sorry about another tangent there.

01:16:16.384 --> 01:16:16.385
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

01:16:16.385 --> 01:16:16.774
Or, or, yes.

01:16:16.884 --> 01:16:22.414
Or, or if you're gonna throw me out
to the greater predators, then I

01:16:22.414 --> 01:16:23.644
will become that greater predator.

01:16:24.214 --> 01:16:24.604
Yes.

01:16:24.724 --> 01:16:24.964
Yep.

01:16:24.964 --> 01:16:26.254
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:26.254 --> 01:16:28.054
Is that, is that, is
that what vengeance is?

01:16:28.054 --> 01:16:29.584
Is that what Avengers, that's interesting.

01:16:30.349 --> 01:16:33.199
Rebecca Bailey: So this is what you
and I need to get together and write

01:16:33.199 --> 01:16:37.489
a book on and talk about is the power
of shame and the predatory practice.

01:16:37.489 --> 01:16:44.419
Because if we can attack that darn s
word again, if people can hear about

01:16:44.419 --> 01:16:50.419
it and really understand it from a
body-based response, maybe we can get

01:16:50.419 --> 01:16:53.539
it out of this cerebral value judgment.

01:16:53.569 --> 01:16:57.139
You know it, because it
isn't a moralistic thing.

01:16:57.139 --> 01:17:02.809
It's, it's a survival thing to want to
feel connected and it is so powerful.

01:17:03.529 --> 01:17:04.879
You never put a horse alone.

01:17:04.879 --> 01:17:05.239
Right.

01:17:06.739 --> 01:17:08.769
Rupert Isaacson: Hopefully,
do it all the time.

01:17:08.769 --> 01:17:12.909
But I'm just, I'm just thinking about back
to my time, for example, with the Bushman.

01:17:13.689 --> 01:17:22.959
I never heard of anybody being or
encountered this, whether re real, you

01:17:22.964 --> 01:17:25.119
know, in real time or hearing about it.

01:17:26.589 --> 01:17:31.989
I never heard of anybody
being shamed, ostracized.

01:17:32.019 --> 01:17:38.259
I, I, I never, no one to my
knowledge has, was ever cast out.

01:17:40.359 --> 01:17:45.669
And if, if these people again feel
collective responsibility and, and,

01:17:45.669 --> 01:17:49.239
and if these people are the oldest
people on the planet, therefore the

01:17:49.599 --> 01:17:54.564
blueprint for what humans actually
are, That's actually very functional.

01:17:54.564 --> 01:17:55.944
That always used to give me a lot of hope.

01:17:55.944 --> 01:17:58.854
And I think being, oh, actually
maybe we're actually really

01:17:58.854 --> 01:18:01.974
quite good as a species because
these people seem so functional.

01:18:02.874 --> 01:18:05.934
yet we know for sure other cultures do.

01:18:07.044 --> 01:18:12.564
I wonder if do, do you think
that in the wild context of

01:18:12.564 --> 01:18:16.398
humanity, blame might be used?

01:18:16.548 --> 01:18:20.298
And I, I'm asking myself this question,
like, let's say, I don't know, you didn't

01:18:20.298 --> 01:18:23.718
pull your weight somehow in the thing
and it compromised the other people

01:18:23.718 --> 01:18:26.328
and they're a bit mad at and da da da.

01:18:26.388 --> 01:18:30.138
You know, because you jeopardize
everybody's safety in that moment.

01:18:30.138 --> 01:18:34.368
So you got a chance to kind of then
go to the shaman and you go, okay,

01:18:34.373 --> 01:18:40.998
what do I need to do to access my mojo
to, you know, but other cultures for

01:18:40.998 --> 01:18:44.328
sure later, cultures, agricultural
cultures, that sort of thing, we

01:18:44.328 --> 01:18:46.788
know absolutely have cast people out.

01:18:47.598 --> 01:18:51.408
you hear about, you know, the accounts
of the a hundred years war and, you

01:18:51.413 --> 01:18:55.848
know, people caught between two armies
trying to get into the city with the

01:18:56.088 --> 01:18:59.808
attacking army behind them and the
army behind the war and just being

01:18:59.808 --> 01:19:04.158
allowed to let die, you know, in
between and starve to death in between.

01:19:04.358 --> 01:19:07.548
And, and what would make
you not open the gates?

01:19:07.548 --> 01:19:10.578
What would make you make that decision?

01:19:10.668 --> 01:19:12.528
And that seems to be a.

01:19:15.093 --> 01:19:19.773
A, perhaps a non-authentic way of being a
human is that the difference between blame

01:19:19.773 --> 01:19:23.283
and shame is shame a later construct.

01:19:24.423 --> 01:19:28.833
Rebecca Bailey: I think it probably
is a later construct, and probably if

01:19:28.833 --> 01:19:34.323
we're really going deep, brought in
through paternalistic governmental,

01:19:36.023 --> 01:19:39.723
I, I don't know that any of the
maternalistic,  if that's the right word,

01:19:39.933 --> 01:19:43.773
societies would use shame like that.

01:19:43.773 --> 01:19:49.103
And so it's, for lack of a better
word, it's, it's, it's,  I don't know.

01:19:49.103 --> 01:19:50.633
It's really interesting.

01:19:50.693 --> 01:19:52.133
It's really interesting.

01:19:52.433 --> 01:19:55.883
It serves to disempower people, period.

01:19:56.243 --> 01:19:57.263
And wherever.

01:19:57.563 --> 01:19:58.343
Yeah, go ahead.

01:19:58.553 --> 01:19:58.883
Well,

01:19:59.213 --> 01:20:01.073
Rupert Isaacson: the question
is shame a recent thing.

01:20:01.223 --> 01:20:05.183
I mean, in terms of human
history, let's think about it.

01:20:05.273 --> 01:20:09.083
Ev, evolution, history rather
than like, history, you

01:20:09.083 --> 01:20:11.243
Rebecca Bailey: know, since I
would think so, wouldn't you?

01:20:11.453 --> 01:20:14.363
I mean, I would be, it would be so
interesting to, again, if you have any

01:20:14.368 --> 01:20:18.773
listener who's like a sociologist that
can say, actually we can see guilt as

01:20:18.778 --> 01:20:21.233
being, you know, brought in X, Y, Z.

01:20:21.233 --> 01:20:24.683
But I bet, I bet that is a more function.

01:20:24.713 --> 01:20:26.213
I bet it's a function.

01:20:26.683 --> 01:20:28.073
I don't know.

01:20:28.073 --> 01:20:29.333
That's very interesting.

01:20:29.393 --> 01:20:31.133
I I still blame it on the men.

01:20:31.643 --> 01:20:32.183
Sorry.

01:20:32.693 --> 01:20:35.963
Rupert Isaacson: No, I mean, it may well
be because I mean, with, with, with,

01:20:35.993 --> 01:20:38.123
agriculture, I mean, agriculture can be.

01:20:39.428 --> 01:20:41.648
That's when we see war coming
in and that sort of thing.

01:20:41.728 --> 01:20:44.548
it can be maternal, it can be paternal.

01:20:44.968 --> 01:20:48.298
We see both, but usually it's
the blokes, usually it's,

01:20:48.298 --> 01:20:50.968
Rebecca Bailey: and, and of course
without offending people, and maybe I

01:20:50.968 --> 01:20:54.328
do, but I don't mean to that they, you
know, very much Christian values are

01:20:54.328 --> 01:20:56.998
embedded in, in, in guilt and shame.

01:20:56.998 --> 01:20:58.798
Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
well, is guilt the same thing?

01:20:58.828 --> 01:20:59.848
This is another, is guilt the same

01:20:59.848 --> 01:21:00.198
Rebecca Bailey: thing as Sean?

01:21:00.218 --> 01:21:05.008
No, I don't think guilt is, see,
in my humble opinion, guilt is

01:21:05.008 --> 01:21:06.928
a motivator for some people.

01:21:07.228 --> 01:21:12.533
And, and,  as long as it doesn't go
into probably the dorsal, if we're

01:21:12.533 --> 01:21:16.073
using polyvagal terms, which I love to
use because who knows if this is really

01:21:16.073 --> 01:21:21.143
true, but it sounds so smart that maybe,
maybe shame is a dorsal response, a

01:21:21.143 --> 01:21:26.393
fear response, a deep fear of being
cast out where guilt has maybe, let's

01:21:26.393 --> 01:21:30.833
think, possibly some sympathetic juice
into it that there's something I can do

01:21:30.838 --> 01:21:33.303
about this,  to, to make it different.

01:21:33.303 --> 01:21:37.413
Where shame, I don't think there's the,
the structure, the construct is not, I

01:21:37.413 --> 01:21:39.123
can do something to make it different.

01:21:39.128 --> 01:21:42.933
It's like I've done something terrible
and there's no rectifying Right.

01:21:42.933 --> 01:21:43.113
There's

01:21:43.113 --> 01:21:43.923
Rupert Isaacson: no redemption.

01:21:44.763 --> 01:21:45.633
Rebecca Bailey: Right, right.

01:21:45.723 --> 01:21:49.593
Whereas the, the, the guilt one I do,
I really, I do sometimes have people

01:21:49.593 --> 01:21:51.003
come in and say, I feel so guilty.

01:21:51.003 --> 01:21:53.223
And it's like, okay, well
you feel really guilty.

01:21:53.623 --> 01:21:54.763
what do we do with that now?

01:21:54.763 --> 01:21:55.993
Where do you want that to go?

01:21:55.993 --> 01:22:00.418
I mean, yeah, it's okay to be feel guilty
that, you know, You yelled at your kid

01:22:00.418 --> 01:22:04.438
or your husband, or your wife, or your
spouse or whoever, that's, that's fine.

01:22:04.438 --> 01:22:05.668
But what are you gonna do with it?

01:22:05.848 --> 01:22:09.718
Can you move it into a ventral, into
a place where there's compassion and

01:22:09.718 --> 01:22:11.998
curiosity for yourself and for them?

01:22:12.388 --> 01:22:15.658
Or are you gonna let it go down
into an embedded place of, you

01:22:15.663 --> 01:22:19.968
know, shame that I am a terrible
person, is ventral forgiveness?

01:22:21.418 --> 01:22:23.398
I think so, for sure.

01:22:23.398 --> 01:22:29.458
I have found my life to be so much richer
when I look at, see, I look at compassion

01:22:29.458 --> 01:22:35.218
and curiosity as, so when I'm dealing with
someone, whether in the horse arena or

01:22:35.698 --> 01:22:42.988
wherever, clinically or not, who are so
politically different than I am, initially

01:22:42.988 --> 01:22:47.308
my sympathetic gets bubbling and I, you
know, like, and then I just have to really

01:22:47.308 --> 01:22:53.158
go to curiosity and I can literally feel
the shift in my body and I can feel the

01:22:53.158 --> 01:22:59.008
shift of like, for a second, you know, it
doesn't mean that I walk away saying, oh,

01:22:59.008 --> 01:23:00.928
isn't that wonderful I, I'm there, right?

01:23:00.928 --> 01:23:04.768
It's just I go to more compassion for
myself, for my response and for them.

01:23:05.098 --> 01:23:07.168
And so that sort of goes to forgiveness.

01:23:07.168 --> 01:23:09.598
I have a funny relationship
with forgiveness.

01:23:09.698 --> 01:23:09.818
I.

01:23:11.273 --> 01:23:14.273
I go back, I, I am a
teeter-totter on forgiveness.

01:23:14.273 --> 01:23:20.153
Sometimes I, I, I don't choose to be in
sympathetic with forgiveness, and I don't

01:23:20.153 --> 01:23:25.703
choose to be in dorsal, but I choose to
be okay that there are some people I just,

01:23:26.183 --> 01:23:28.343
you know, I, I don't want to forgive.

01:23:28.343 --> 01:23:29.543
And that's a conscious choice.

01:23:29.543 --> 01:23:31.153
That's a cerebral choice, right?

01:23:32.893 --> 01:23:33.243
Right.

01:23:33.263 --> 01:23:34.283
And it's not very choice.

01:23:34.403 --> 01:23:37.253
But there's only two or three people
in my life that I'm like that with.

01:23:38.423 --> 01:23:40.223
Rupert Isaacson: And I suppose in
one's perfect world, one would,

01:23:40.228 --> 01:23:41.543
one would get to that point.

01:23:41.543 --> 01:23:42.953
And who knows, maybe one will.

01:23:43.673 --> 01:23:46.643
But I think yes, everyone can say that.

01:23:48.453 --> 01:23:51.153
may, maybe not today,
but hopefully tomorrow.

01:23:51.393 --> 01:23:51.753
Yeah.

01:23:52.233 --> 01:23:56.133
I was, this is one of the questions I had
written down here actually, which is how

01:23:56.133 --> 01:23:58.203
can we access kindness and compassion?

01:23:59.493 --> 01:24:03.723
Well, you know, even when, just let
me just, but even when our sympathetic

01:24:03.753 --> 01:24:09.903
nervous system is active, meaning,
righteous anger, let's say you're

01:24:09.908 --> 01:24:13.383
having trouble forgiving some somebody
because they actually did do you wrong.

01:24:14.463 --> 01:24:19.773
And,  so therefore you have every,
every reason, every right to not forgive

01:24:19.773 --> 01:24:21.033
them, to be, to be angry with them.

01:24:22.593 --> 01:24:32.058
yet one knows deep down that if I
better a grudge, It doesn't do oneself

01:24:32.058 --> 01:24:34.578
any good really at the end of the day,
but it can be very, very difficult

01:24:35.778 --> 01:24:37.278
to not act upon that, et cetera.

01:24:37.428 --> 01:24:37.788
How so?

01:24:37.788 --> 01:24:42.918
How do we access kindness and
compassion even when our sympathetic

01:24:42.923 --> 01:24:44.238
nervous system is active like that?

01:24:44.418 --> 01:24:45.258
What, what, what, what?

01:24:45.358 --> 01:24:48.328
when we survive trauma, what, what,
what, what are your thoughts on that?

01:24:49.228 --> 01:24:51.088
Rebecca Bailey: So, two pieces.

01:24:51.298 --> 01:24:55.528
I think that the, an, the simple
answer is to get back into a regulated

01:24:55.528 --> 01:24:59.248
state, and that's where like being with
the horse and grooming the horse or

01:24:59.253 --> 01:25:04.048
watching the horses or just being in the
presence of, you know, peaceful horses

01:25:04.053 --> 01:25:05.428
and some ways can help you regulate.

01:25:06.238 --> 01:25:07.228
But what I was.

01:25:08.113 --> 01:25:11.623
Interrupting you about, sort of
dovetails to what you also just said,

01:25:11.623 --> 01:25:13.903
which the people, I don't forgive.

01:25:13.963 --> 01:25:15.253
I want them to be shamed.

01:25:15.763 --> 01:25:18.913
So, you know, miss, miss,  Dr.

01:25:19.633 --> 01:25:22.993
Lio over here saying that, you know,
when I, when I look at the people in my

01:25:22.993 --> 01:25:27.973
life that, and there's two that I really
believe, I don't wanna ever forgive.

01:25:28.023 --> 01:25:32.053
I, I don't walk around with a lot of
hatred for them, but they have never

01:25:32.053 --> 01:25:33.763
showed any shame for their action.

01:25:33.763 --> 01:25:34.963
And it pisses me off.

01:25:35.323 --> 01:25:41.413
So I think the one way that we get at,
into compassion is to stay curious and

01:25:41.413 --> 01:25:43.813
to say regulated and get outta judgment.

01:25:43.813 --> 01:25:47.083
Because when we judge, we
cannot be compassionate.

01:25:47.143 --> 01:25:48.043
We just can't be.

01:25:48.283 --> 01:25:51.673
So, I can't be compassionate for these
people because I'm judging their action,

01:25:51.673 --> 01:25:53.143
which is not fair to them really.

01:25:53.143 --> 01:25:53.923
But so what?

01:25:54.253 --> 01:25:54.733
Sorry.

01:25:54.883 --> 01:26:00.343
But, but so I, I think the real
answer is to just really stay at a

01:26:00.343 --> 01:26:02.833
judgment and do everything we can.

01:26:03.313 --> 01:26:07.213
And I think, you know, there's certain,
so social morays that I will always

01:26:07.213 --> 01:26:11.323
judge and have issues about, like,
people that hurt little children, period.

01:26:11.743 --> 01:26:14.713
Sorry, you know, don't work with
them, don't wanna work with them.

01:26:14.713 --> 01:26:18.373
Doesn't mean they don't deserve compassion
from some, it's just not, I don't

01:26:18.378 --> 01:26:23.293
have an in me to do it, but I think
it's staying curious and compassion in

01:26:23.623 --> 01:26:25.873
accessing these ventral, vagal pathways.

01:26:26.143 --> 01:26:29.053
Rupert Isaacson: And so can,
so let's go back to horses.

01:26:30.013 --> 01:26:31.633
we talk about co-regulation.

01:26:31.633 --> 01:26:38.473
So if we can be in the, If we can
cohere with a nervous system that

01:26:38.683 --> 01:26:41.893
is regulated so we can be around
a horse that's calm, for example.

01:26:42.613 --> 01:26:47.383
can something as simple as that in
a, in an environment with no bad

01:26:47.383 --> 01:26:52.093
sensory triggers or nothing where
we feel a threat, can those two

01:26:52.093 --> 01:26:59.083
things help us just simply to get
into that curiosity, compassion,

01:26:59.473 --> 01:27:04.243
ventral strategizing, social thing.

01:27:04.243 --> 01:27:08.083
Something as simple as I'm, I'm
going out into a nice environment.

01:27:08.293 --> 01:27:13.333
The people around me are, okay, this
horse is cool and it's now regulating me.

01:27:14.313 --> 01:27:15.763
Rebecca Bailey: I, I really believe that.

01:27:15.763 --> 01:27:20.353
I also think practicing breathing in a way
that's, you know, not complex, sort of a

01:27:20.353 --> 01:27:25.303
shorter breath in, longer out, being aware
of being really present in the moment.

01:27:25.303 --> 01:27:29.233
Smell, especially horses, although some
people say they don't like the smell, but

01:27:29.233 --> 01:27:34.783
smelling the barn and feeling like the
tactile just feeling, I, I don't believe

01:27:34.783 --> 01:27:37.933
it's just horses that help the shift.

01:27:37.993 --> 01:27:39.343
I think it's all of it.

01:27:39.583 --> 01:27:45.703
Having somebody there with you who
makes you feel safe or, you know,

01:27:45.943 --> 01:27:48.853
or if they're your horses, you
know, and you feel comfortable.

01:27:49.123 --> 01:27:53.173
But yes, I believe that that
shift can help your body.

01:27:53.983 --> 01:27:58.693
Recognize it as a healthy homeostasis,
but you have to remember to carry

01:27:58.693 --> 01:28:00.673
it with you out of the situation.

01:28:01.033 --> 01:28:04.123
You know, you're driving down the
road and somebody cuts you off and

01:28:04.123 --> 01:28:09.253
you're like, get the blank out of
the way and you're, you nerve up.

01:28:09.253 --> 01:28:11.623
Well, I'll even tell you a better example.

01:28:11.623 --> 01:28:15.613
So I would had to get two crowns the
other day and it really hurt in my

01:28:15.613 --> 01:28:18.193
mouth and I was like, really hurting.

01:28:18.193 --> 01:28:20.683
The Novocaine wasn't working
or whatever they give you now.

01:28:21.133 --> 01:28:26.983
And I suddenly really started riding
my horse on my head, not on my head,

01:28:27.223 --> 01:28:31.753
riding my horse on top of a hill
that I loved to let him walk up to at

01:28:31.753 --> 01:28:33.223
his own accord with the loose rain.

01:28:33.223 --> 01:28:36.013
And he stands there and we look
out over the valley and then when

01:28:36.013 --> 01:28:37.393
he is ready to move, he moves.

01:28:37.633 --> 01:28:43.753
And so I put myself in that place and
I just completely enveloped and tried

01:28:43.753 --> 01:28:49.093
to remember the smell and just being
on his back and it felt so much better.

01:28:49.483 --> 01:28:50.923
It felt, and I shifted.

01:28:51.313 --> 01:28:52.663
I shifted internally.

01:28:53.383 --> 01:29:00.583
Rupert Isaacson: Were you in your
ventral vagal or were you in your dorsal.

01:29:01.233 --> 01:29:01.683
Well used

01:29:01.683 --> 01:29:02.803
Rebecca Bailey: to, I was sympathetic.

01:29:03.043 --> 01:29:04.723
I wanted to get the heck out of there.

01:29:04.723 --> 01:29:06.373
I wanted to run like hell.

01:29:06.703 --> 01:29:09.883
And then I started getting a little
bit like in my head, like, this

01:29:09.883 --> 01:29:11.593
dentist doesn't know what he's doing.

01:29:11.593 --> 01:29:12.703
Why is it not going out?

01:29:12.708 --> 01:29:16.273
Later he explained to me about this
particular tooth and why the nerve is hard

01:29:16.273 --> 01:29:19.303
to, to innerate to put the medicine in.

01:29:19.483 --> 01:29:22.063
But so I went into this
cerebral thing, like, this guy

01:29:22.063 --> 01:29:22.843
doesn't know what he's doing.

01:29:22.843 --> 01:29:23.623
I gotta get outta here.

01:29:23.623 --> 01:29:27.133
And then I went to, oh my God,
just, just sit here and be in it.

01:29:27.133 --> 01:29:27.523
It hurts.

01:29:27.523 --> 01:29:28.243
It hurts, it hurts.

01:29:28.248 --> 01:29:28.903
And just sort of a dal.

01:29:29.623 --> 01:29:30.913
And then I went, wait a second.

01:29:31.603 --> 01:29:33.643
What is the grounding piece in me?

01:29:33.643 --> 01:29:35.503
So that goes back to your question.

01:29:36.193 --> 01:29:41.173
If you allow yourself to look for like
what Deb called, Deb Dana calls the

01:29:41.173 --> 01:29:44.893
glimmers, the beautiful things, the
things that bring us back into our

01:29:44.893 --> 01:29:49.243
body, this oxytocin and vasopressin
and somehow is released in our

01:29:49.248 --> 01:29:51.733
body, we can help our body restore.

01:29:52.033 --> 01:29:54.613
Now the problem is there are
people that live in situations

01:29:54.823 --> 01:29:56.743
that are so dire, right?

01:29:56.923 --> 01:29:57.643
So dire.

01:29:57.643 --> 01:29:58.933
How do they do that?

01:29:59.293 --> 01:30:05.353
But the thing is they do, they
find those moments of grounding.

01:30:05.713 --> 01:30:10.513
And you know, I talked to somebody
who just came out of Ukraine who was

01:30:10.513 --> 01:30:13.903
talking the experience about being
in the middle of this village or this

01:30:13.903 --> 01:30:18.733
town that was being bombed and just
this thing that they held onto was the

01:30:18.733 --> 01:30:22.363
vision of it was the also a hillside.

01:30:22.573 --> 01:30:25.063
And that was the thing that
brought them back in their body

01:30:25.063 --> 01:30:26.533
when they were out of the fear.

01:30:27.043 --> 01:30:28.453
So I think we can.

01:30:29.338 --> 01:30:32.398
Rupert Isaacson: But, so talk us through
when you're doing that, whether it's in

01:30:32.398 --> 01:30:39.748
the dentist or they're in Ukraine, what's
going on in the vagal pathways and system?

01:30:40.138 --> 01:30:43.618
What's the dance between sympathetic,
parasympathetic, and so forth?

01:30:44.698 --> 01:30:48.388
Rebecca Bailey: So what I think, what
I think and what, you know, I guess the

01:30:48.388 --> 01:30:53.938
research shows is that what would many
things are happening, neurotransmitters,

01:30:53.938 --> 01:30:55.468
all of these pieces are happening.

01:30:55.468 --> 01:31:00.358
But if we go to the simple nervous
system piece, the ventral vagal

01:31:00.358 --> 01:31:04.138
again, is overseeing everything
going on up here, kind of helping

01:31:04.138 --> 01:31:08.758
you be present in some level.

01:31:08.758 --> 01:31:11.548
You're, you know, whatever,
that's taking you the wrong way.

01:31:11.878 --> 01:31:16.798
But you're either going into the
deep fear where the digestion

01:31:16.798 --> 01:31:18.808
rest and digest is going offline.

01:31:18.808 --> 01:31:21.838
Your stomach starts hurting, it
doesn't feel good to sit still.

01:31:21.838 --> 01:31:26.578
You start no noticing stomach problems
or you're sympathetic anxiety.

01:31:26.698 --> 01:31:29.398
You feel anxious, you wanna get
out of there, you wanna fight.

01:31:29.788 --> 01:31:32.608
So that's also even something
to think about when you're in an

01:31:32.608 --> 01:31:35.788
argument with a partner or a friend.

01:31:36.058 --> 01:31:39.778
Like if you can look at it like, my
sympathetic is being activated right

01:31:39.783 --> 01:31:44.548
now, and by the way, I use activated
not triggered because there's been

01:31:44.548 --> 01:31:48.628
so many mass shootings that the word
triggered activates people in itself.

01:31:49.018 --> 01:31:53.248
So you're activated, you're in an
argument instead of getting into.

01:31:53.953 --> 01:31:55.363
Up into your brain about it.

01:31:55.363 --> 01:31:59.293
You go to a part that says, I am just
feeling fight or flight right now.

01:31:59.653 --> 01:32:02.563
I can't problem solve until
I walk away and come back.

01:32:03.823 --> 01:32:06.613
Or the same thing, your stomach
hurts so much or you can't

01:32:06.613 --> 01:32:07.873
sleep in all of these things.

01:32:07.873 --> 01:32:12.553
When we notice our stomach problems, when
we notice digestion, when we notice all

01:32:12.553 --> 01:32:16.303
these things, it means that something is
very much outta balance in our system.

01:32:17.593 --> 01:32:22.453
Our system needs good ventral,
vagal oversight, but also all these

01:32:22.453 --> 01:32:24.103
other pieces to function well.

01:32:25.603 --> 01:32:32.653
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a shamanic
ability within the vagal system?

01:32:33.953 --> 01:32:35.923
Rebecca Bailey: Tell me,
tell me more what you mean.

01:32:36.403 --> 01:32:39.848
Rupert Isaacson: what I mean is almost
like a metaphysical above, above the

01:32:39.848 --> 01:32:48.008
physical, ability within the relationship
between these different parts of the

01:32:48.008 --> 01:32:54.968
vagal response to say, okay, things
are really, really shit right now,

01:32:55.028 --> 01:32:58.658
or whatever is going on right now.

01:33:00.158 --> 01:33:02.108
I'm thinking about alter
sets of consciousness too.

01:33:02.498 --> 01:33:09.428
I need now an alter set of consciousness
and therefore there's a, is is there

01:33:09.788 --> 01:33:12.908
a wisdom in the bo Is that what
shape shifting is basically, is there

01:33:12.908 --> 01:33:14.438
Rebecca Bailey: is that, go ahead.

01:33:15.758 --> 01:33:20.378
No, I'm jo, I'm nodding my head cuz
yes, I really believe so when people.

01:33:20.918 --> 01:33:22.688
Yes, I really think so.

01:33:22.688 --> 01:33:27.338
I think that there is this, like,
whether it's magical, mystical, woo,

01:33:27.338 --> 01:33:31.988
whatever it is, there's this way that
your body, your nerve autonomic nervous

01:33:31.988 --> 01:33:34.628
system says, I gotta take over here.

01:33:35.048 --> 01:33:36.368
I gotta do this right now.

01:33:36.638 --> 01:33:39.758
And if your brain is arguing
with it, it is just, it's so,

01:33:39.758 --> 01:33:41.288
such a simple way to look at it.

01:33:41.288 --> 01:33:45.908
But I just, you have, you give into
whatever this thing and this mystical

01:33:45.908 --> 01:33:51.698
part of your body is and kind of let it
guide you in the moment for survival.

01:33:52.478 --> 01:33:55.328
So when I have, you know, I was
working with somebody the other

01:33:55.328 --> 01:34:01.688
day who had God years of sexual and
abuse and trafficked as a child.

01:34:01.688 --> 01:34:07.478
And they've given, been given this
message that they never fought back

01:34:07.928 --> 01:34:13.178
and they, this happened to them
because they were the most likely to

01:34:13.178 --> 01:34:16.818
have, they just had this narrative
that was really kind of sad to shame.

01:34:17.038 --> 01:34:22.418
And what I'm trying to help them see is
that you survived your nervous system,

01:34:22.418 --> 01:34:26.498
knew that there was nothing you could do,
like the boarding school with these crazy

01:34:26.498 --> 01:34:30.428
people that were trafficking them to your
parents and your parents' best friends.

01:34:30.668 --> 01:34:31.958
Nothing you could do.

01:34:32.498 --> 01:34:35.648
And it was very interesting because then
they were talking about some of the,

01:34:35.648 --> 01:34:37.328
restrictions that they went through.

01:34:37.628 --> 01:34:39.878
And I've heard this from so many.

01:34:40.313 --> 01:34:44.573
Right now, mostly women, some men where,
you know, they'd have bags put over

01:34:44.573 --> 01:34:48.233
their heads, and this is an activator
or alert, you know, situations happen

01:34:48.233 --> 01:34:52.793
where their breath was restricted while
they were being sexually assaulted.

01:34:53.153 --> 01:34:57.233
And what their body did was
just go into this fear shutdown.

01:34:57.473 --> 01:34:59.453
Their brain said, I can't deal with this.

01:34:59.603 --> 01:35:00.563
That's what I think.

01:35:00.773 --> 01:35:03.203
I, I can't, if I sit here,
I'm gonna die of fear.

01:35:03.713 --> 01:35:04.943
I've just gotta check out.

01:35:05.243 --> 01:35:07.883
And to me, I think
that's like a superpower.

01:35:08.183 --> 01:35:08.813
I don't know.

01:35:08.813 --> 01:35:13.283
I have always said to people, and I've
been told before I worked with these

01:35:13.288 --> 01:35:17.093
people, I probably would've fought
like a cat and gotten myself killed.

01:35:18.353 --> 01:35:21.023
But what, anytime I've said
that, everybody says, you don't

01:35:21.023 --> 01:35:22.373
know until it happens to you.

01:35:22.493 --> 01:35:23.303
You just don't know.

01:35:23.303 --> 01:35:25.673
And may it never happen to me like that.

01:35:27.113 --> 01:35:27.323
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:35:27.323 --> 01:35:29.723
It might be, it might be context specific.

01:35:30.083 --> 01:35:35.513
So maybe the same person, let's
say for example, you're a warrior,

01:35:36.353 --> 01:35:41.873
male or female, and you access
an altered set of consciousness

01:35:41.873 --> 01:35:44.093
where you, you can preserve, yep.

01:35:44.093 --> 01:35:48.173
Rip off all your clothes, run into the
blades, they'll bounce off you because

01:35:48.173 --> 01:35:50.813
you are in that metaphysical state.

01:35:50.873 --> 01:35:56.693
At that point, then perhaps you
get failed because it wears off.

01:35:57.233 --> 01:36:02.933
That super adrenaline thing, you
get taken prisoner and then a whole

01:36:02.933 --> 01:36:05.633
other set of responses kick in.

01:36:05.933 --> 01:36:07.853
But are they actually the same response?

01:36:08.273 --> 01:36:08.783
Is it.

01:36:09.413 --> 01:36:12.773
The one is, is, is, is,
appropriate to fight.

01:36:13.553 --> 01:36:16.763
So that's what you use at that
particular one, and the other one

01:36:16.823 --> 01:36:18.353
is appropriate to appeasement.

01:36:18.383 --> 01:36:19.943
So you use that one at that time.

01:36:20.243 --> 01:36:24.083
And if you could dance between
those two, presumably you

01:36:24.083 --> 01:36:26.333
might survive that campaign.

01:36:27.323 --> 01:36:27.413
Yep.

01:36:27.413 --> 01:36:36.143
Take that wisdom home with you and use it
for the general, wisdom of the community.

01:36:36.443 --> 01:36:39.083
Say, well, yes, I, I, I was
both a fighter and an appa.

01:36:40.043 --> 01:36:42.083
It's all about the context.

01:36:43.253 --> 01:36:48.053
One could imagine surely that it's
not just purely personality driven,

01:36:48.053 --> 01:36:49.853
it must also be context driven, right?

01:36:50.843 --> 01:36:54.173
Rebecca Bailey: Context driven and
maybe temperament in some levels, or,

01:36:54.173 --> 01:37:01.193
you know, the, the, if you are highly
prone to being super reactive, maybe

01:37:01.193 --> 01:37:07.043
it's harder or highly prone to, high
sensei to sounds and all of that.

01:37:07.043 --> 01:37:11.363
Your ability to regulate under that term,
under those conditions might be harder.

01:37:11.903 --> 01:37:14.873
You know, I, I think it,
it's, it's all it is.

01:37:14.873 --> 01:37:17.723
It's dependent on context,
dependent on temperament,

01:37:18.353 --> 01:37:20.723
maybe dependent on opportunity.

01:37:20.723 --> 01:37:24.743
When I first started this crazy, like
thinking about all this stuff, I was

01:37:24.743 --> 01:37:28.043
really into the learned helplessness
model, and that was in their early

01:37:28.043 --> 01:37:33.173
nineties, that Martin Seligman, who
discredited himself by being part of the,

01:37:33.173 --> 01:37:38.513
Committee that helped with Guantanamo Bay
for, which was like amazing and really sad

01:37:38.513 --> 01:37:40.763
because he's also the daddy of optimism.

01:37:40.763 --> 01:37:41.753
Very interesting.

01:37:42.203 --> 01:37:46.793
So early on I was into his theory
of learned helplessness where

01:37:46.798 --> 01:37:51.083
dogs give up when in a maze and
they just lay down and give up.

01:37:51.353 --> 01:37:55.463
And that was how I would explain many
of these people that I was working with.

01:37:55.463 --> 01:38:01.013
This would be like 80, early nineties
until I started really talking to

01:38:01.013 --> 01:38:03.083
them and I'd be like, wait a second.

01:38:03.083 --> 01:38:04.343
You were no, no way.

01:38:04.343 --> 01:38:06.053
You were helpless, right?

01:38:06.413 --> 01:38:09.683
This, you were as far from helpless
as anybody I've ever heard.

01:38:09.923 --> 01:38:13.853
You were in a helpless situation,
but you prevailed through your

01:38:13.853 --> 01:38:15.923
ability to manage it in your body.

01:38:16.193 --> 01:38:18.893
And so that's kind of sort of
really shifting things for me.

01:38:19.343 --> 01:38:23.123
And I think horses, I mean, I think
horses are, I do think horses, and this

01:38:23.123 --> 01:38:28.163
is another hole, but I just, I think
horses in some ways are appeasers too

01:38:28.193 --> 01:38:33.053
because, you know, and I do, I actually,
I love to ride and I love my horses.

01:38:33.053 --> 01:38:36.773
I love being around them on the ground
next to them, watching them, whatever.

01:38:37.073 --> 01:38:39.593
I actually have a couple that
really do like to be ridden.

01:38:39.623 --> 01:38:40.373
They really do.

01:38:40.373 --> 01:38:41.453
I mean, it's no question.

01:38:41.453 --> 01:38:44.843
They're, you know, they, but I
still think there's an appeasement

01:38:44.843 --> 01:38:46.223
piece that happens with them.

01:38:46.403 --> 01:38:50.213
You know, that they're in a
situation that there's really no,

01:38:50.663 --> 01:38:52.523
there's really no escape from it.

01:38:52.793 --> 01:38:57.413
But if you ride beautifully, incorrectly
and try not to yank on their mouth and

01:38:57.413 --> 01:39:01.043
hit them in the sides and all these
things that we humans sometimes will do,

01:39:01.403 --> 01:39:03.563
then there can be a mutual connection.

01:39:04.163 --> 01:39:05.843
But it takes a lot of work.

01:39:06.383 --> 01:39:08.633
Rupert Isaacson: But isn't that the
same as every, every relationship?

01:39:08.633 --> 01:39:11.303
I mean, I'm just thinking about,
you know, one's relationships in

01:39:11.303 --> 01:39:14.483
a marriage or one's relationships
as child to parent or whatever.

01:39:14.723 --> 01:39:20.183
Appeasement is part of the
puzzle every, every day.

01:39:20.183 --> 01:39:23.213
It's like there's, there's
always compromises being

01:39:23.213 --> 01:39:25.763
made and you let that one go.

01:39:26.198 --> 01:39:30.158
And the more you let go,
actually the smoother things go.

01:39:30.158 --> 01:39:32.428
Even if you're, it's not fair, but okay.

01:39:32.918 --> 01:39:33.428
Right, right.

01:39:33.498 --> 01:39:36.338
It's not that important, but one
could argue that that's appeasement.

01:39:36.338 --> 01:39:36.578
Right?

01:39:36.578 --> 01:39:40.448
I mean, I, I remember hearing people
talking about masking as if it's a

01:39:40.448 --> 01:39:41.648
bad thing and thinking, well, hold on.

01:39:41.798 --> 01:39:43.058
That's a survival skill, right?

01:39:43.063 --> 01:39:47.288
I mean, if you, if you were hunting a
deer and you put on the garb of the deer

01:39:47.288 --> 01:39:51.578
with the atlas that's masking so that
you can mask yourself as the deer or a

01:39:51.578 --> 01:39:57.218
masked ball where you take on it or, or,
or role play or that's, that's, again,

01:39:57.218 --> 01:39:58.868
shamanic or, you know, shape shifting.

01:39:59.078 --> 01:40:01.658
Surely these things aren't
all positive or all negative.

01:40:01.663 --> 01:40:07.268
Aren't aren't, aren't they, aren't
they simply the dance that we do?

01:40:08.048 --> 01:40:08.288
Yeah.

01:40:09.548 --> 01:40:14.138
Through human relationship to and,
and inter species relationship,

01:40:14.138 --> 01:40:23.558
I guess, to try to get the
best outcome in a given moment.

01:40:23.588 --> 01:40:23.978
I mean,

01:40:24.428 --> 01:40:25.208
Rebecca Bailey: yeah, I think so.

01:40:25.858 --> 01:40:30.068
I don't, the one that I have issue
with is fawning because in the

01:40:30.068 --> 01:40:34.658
animal kingdom when an animal fawns
at a predator, they get killed.

01:40:35.108 --> 01:40:41.258
And so fawning has sort of taken legs as
a word that I really, I, I bristle at.

01:40:41.258 --> 01:40:42.338
It's come outta my mouth.

01:40:43.058 --> 01:40:48.878
I know it has, but I bristled because
it really is a, it's also number one,

01:40:48.878 --> 01:40:52.388
it's a conscious thought where I don't
think appeasement is a conscious thought.

01:40:52.718 --> 01:40:54.728
And number two, it can.

01:40:55.523 --> 01:40:57.953
Serve to agitate an aggressor.

01:40:57.953 --> 01:41:02.603
And number three, if we start using
it too much, I hate to think in our

01:41:02.603 --> 01:41:07.403
courtrooms when the defense attorney
says, but didn't you fawn, if we start

01:41:07.408 --> 01:41:12.323
giving it air, it really, it concerns
me cuz I think, I think right now it's

01:41:12.323 --> 01:41:16.793
a very hip word to use and I'm always
getting myself in trouble by saying,

01:41:16.793 --> 01:41:18.533
look, can we come up with a better word?

01:41:18.533 --> 01:41:24.203
Because, veterans in, you know,
prisoner of wars didn't fawn over

01:41:24.203 --> 01:41:28.343
their aggressors and we would never
say that, but it's interesting.

01:41:28.343 --> 01:41:30.593
Anyways, Rupert, I, it,

01:41:30.593 --> 01:41:32.993
Rupert Isaacson: it's, well, it's
interesting the word fawn because, we

01:41:32.993 --> 01:41:34.343
talk, you know, foreign, what is it?

01:41:34.343 --> 01:41:36.103
A baby deer, right?

01:41:36.413 --> 01:41:36.623
Right.

01:41:36.683 --> 01:41:37.823
And, a baby deer.

01:41:37.828 --> 01:41:38.723
What does a baby deer do?

01:41:38.728 --> 01:41:39.983
It lies down.

01:41:40.673 --> 01:41:40.883
Yep.

01:41:41.273 --> 01:41:43.103
And it hopes that, finds it right.

01:41:43.373 --> 01:41:44.603
That's all it does.

01:41:45.473 --> 01:41:48.953
It doesn't approach a predator
and go, Hey, do you want a beer?

01:41:49.343 --> 01:41:49.613
You know?

01:41:49.883 --> 01:41:50.123
Right.

01:41:51.743 --> 01:41:53.123
So why do we use that word?

01:41:53.918 --> 01:41:57.008
Rebecca Bailey: Well, it's become,
it became recently in sort of the

01:41:57.008 --> 01:42:01.958
trauma community, and I've had some
legitimate, discussions where some

01:42:01.958 --> 01:42:05.978
people have said, look, in my society
as a woman, that's the only power

01:42:05.983 --> 01:42:08.138
I'm allowed is toan over the man.

01:42:08.138 --> 01:42:10.178
And, and there's some credence.

01:42:10.178 --> 01:42:15.098
But how it's different than appeasement
is, it's a conscious play I see.

01:42:15.248 --> 01:42:18.908
And where appeasement is unconscious,
it's this unconscious process

01:42:18.908 --> 01:42:20.768
you can't conc consciously.

01:42:21.158 --> 01:42:23.318
And I think about that and I
think, is that really true?

01:42:23.318 --> 01:42:24.608
Will, is it all black and white?

01:42:24.608 --> 01:42:25.358
No.

01:42:25.688 --> 01:42:26.378
my gosh.

01:42:26.383 --> 01:42:30.788
I, I, I, I just, the word is so
offensive to my nervous system.

01:42:30.788 --> 01:42:35.678
My new thing is how does that feel on
my nervous system when I say a word?

01:42:35.948 --> 01:42:39.188
And just because I feel it doesn't mean
you're not gonna have a hundred people

01:42:39.188 --> 01:42:42.038
sending you notes saying, you know,
I love that word, blah, blah, blah.

01:42:42.338 --> 01:42:42.968
Okay.

01:42:43.028 --> 01:42:44.678
You know, that's, that's okay too.

01:42:44.678 --> 01:42:46.208
It's just a word that I have.

01:42:46.598 --> 01:42:51.038
As much as Stockholm Syndrome
really disturbed me, I get

01:42:51.038 --> 01:42:54.728
afraid that that's gonna be
memorialized in the literature and.

01:42:55.673 --> 01:43:00.773
I just, I don't wanna go backwards
in the way we help people understand

01:43:00.773 --> 01:43:04.283
their systems and the way that we,
you know, I wanna go forward, which

01:43:04.283 --> 01:43:06.533
I think we have an opportunity too.

01:43:07.103 --> 01:43:10.523
People like you out there, people like
all these other great people talking

01:43:10.523 --> 01:43:15.083
about horses is having their own nervous
system and all these things, like,

01:43:15.083 --> 01:43:16.673
we're moving in the right direction.

01:43:16.673 --> 01:43:19.153
Let's just not fall back
with words like fawning.

01:43:19.663 --> 01:43:19.953
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:43:19.958 --> 01:43:20.693
And in my diet.

01:43:21.053 --> 01:43:21.503
Well, right.

01:43:21.508 --> 01:43:26.873
No, that, and that brings me to the
next, the question, which is the future.

01:43:27.443 --> 01:43:31.613
what's your vision for the
Equine Polyvagal Institute?

01:43:31.793 --> 01:43:33.713
What, what do you want
to achieve with this?

01:43:34.073 --> 01:43:34.883
In a perfect world,

01:43:35.783 --> 01:43:41.603
Rebecca Bailey: we are really looking
for and hoping to have people taking

01:43:41.608 --> 01:43:46.073
the courses and understanding it
and taking it into their community

01:43:46.073 --> 01:43:48.053
and creating their programs.

01:43:48.443 --> 01:43:53.183
So we have things like polyvagal ponies
that we work with where it's an eight

01:43:53.183 --> 01:43:58.973
session, I hate to say about protocol
designed to help people work with their

01:43:58.973 --> 01:44:02.753
nervous system before they have to
testify in court or things like that.

01:44:02.753 --> 01:44:02.783
Oh.

01:44:03.143 --> 01:44:04.523
So it's not a therapeutic.

01:44:04.523 --> 01:44:07.643
So there's all these different
things, programs that we're developing

01:44:07.643 --> 01:44:10.253
in the hopes that people bring
'em into their community to help

01:44:10.253 --> 01:44:13.763
people with their nervous system
and regulate their nervous system.

01:44:13.763 --> 01:44:20.093
We're also developing videos that people
can use in their offices, in areas

01:44:20.093 --> 01:44:22.013
where they can't have access to a horse.

01:44:22.628 --> 01:44:26.768
To sort of help them learn
some of the lessons we all

01:44:26.768 --> 01:44:28.688
have by being with the horses.

01:44:28.688 --> 01:44:33.398
So we're just hoping we grow, we're hoping
we teach people to play and have fun.

01:44:33.758 --> 01:44:37.418
what doesn't maybe come through for
me today is I am a big goof, and

01:44:37.418 --> 01:44:39.488
maybe it did, but I like to laugh.

01:44:39.488 --> 01:44:40.358
I like to play.

01:44:40.363 --> 01:44:41.408
I love humor.

01:44:41.678 --> 01:44:48.068
And, just hoping to maybe shine a
different perspective on self-awareness

01:44:48.068 --> 01:44:50.108
and therapeutic interventions.

01:44:50.108 --> 01:44:51.698
So it's, it's a very love.

01:44:51.703 --> 01:44:52.388
If someone, if someone

01:44:52.388 --> 01:44:55.328
Rupert Isaacson: was, working in the
field of equine assisted interventions,

01:44:55.328 --> 01:44:59.588
and obviously many of the people
listening are, what do you feel is

01:44:59.588 --> 01:45:08.948
the best value that they could get
from interaction with the Equine

01:45:08.948 --> 01:45:10.568
Polyvagal Institute in whatever way?

01:45:10.598 --> 01:45:12.068
What, what, what, what's, I think we

01:45:12.068 --> 01:45:14.678
Rebecca Bailey: go on our website
and check it out and, you know,

01:45:14.678 --> 01:45:16.778
there's so many new people out there.

01:45:16.778 --> 01:45:20.498
I got involved with this stuff,
as I said in the early nineties.

01:45:20.918 --> 01:45:24.128
Polyvagal didn't come to
fruition until about 2012.

01:45:24.638 --> 01:45:25.718
just the concept.

01:45:26.498 --> 01:45:29.288
Check into, go to the Polyvagal
Equine Institute, see what we're

01:45:29.288 --> 01:45:30.848
doing, see if it resonates.

01:45:30.848 --> 01:45:37.658
Find your herd with, within this wonderful
field of equine therapy or whatever

01:45:37.658 --> 01:45:39.008
we're gonna call it, it's building.

01:45:39.008 --> 01:45:40.178
Find your people.

01:45:40.478 --> 01:45:43.628
And within that, so if you come to us
and you're like, I really like this.

01:45:43.628 --> 01:45:46.808
I wanna take the fundamentals
class, this is really cool.

01:45:46.808 --> 01:45:48.548
I wanna go do one of the trainings.

01:45:48.818 --> 01:45:49.208
Do it.

01:45:49.208 --> 01:45:56.468
I'm doing a training over in, somewhere
in Belgium and in France doing Arizona,

01:45:56.918 --> 01:45:58.988
hopefully Costa Rica, California.

01:45:58.988 --> 01:46:00.818
So we're taking it to different places.

01:46:01.238 --> 01:46:02.648
Check it out, see what you think.

01:46:02.678 --> 01:46:03.668
Maybe you don't like it.

01:46:03.668 --> 01:46:06.578
Maybe you're, you know, into
arches or somebody else.

01:46:06.638 --> 01:46:13.178
we're only interested in people coming
that really wanna learn, learn, just

01:46:13.178 --> 01:46:16.748
learn from our perspective right
now and bring their perspective.

01:46:17.048 --> 01:46:20.348
You know, sometimes you have people
that wander in and they're just in

01:46:20.348 --> 01:46:22.778
a different mindset and don't come.

01:46:22.778 --> 01:46:26.228
If it doesn't resonate,
that sounds really terrible.

01:46:26.288 --> 01:46:29.618
But, you know, I, I am who I am.

01:46:29.618 --> 01:46:33.068
I'm 62 years old and I'm only
more me than I've ever been.

01:46:33.068 --> 01:46:35.528
And I continue to be
more me than ever before.

01:46:35.798 --> 01:46:37.028
And so, yeah,

01:46:37.178 --> 01:46:37.988
Rupert Isaacson: but let's, that's me.

01:46:37.988 --> 01:46:38.198
Okay.

01:46:38.198 --> 01:46:41.738
I'm doing horse boy stuff, so I'm,
I'm working with the vagal nerve,

01:46:41.738 --> 01:46:45.638
you know, so I'm trying to induce
oxytocin, stradling up the vagal nerve.

01:46:45.638 --> 01:46:48.848
It's touching every organ we're
getting, hopefully we're, you know,

01:46:48.848 --> 01:46:52.628
telling the amygdala, Hey, you
don't need to create that cortisol.

01:46:53.438 --> 01:46:55.478
Let's get that prefrontal
cortex, go and get it.

01:46:55.748 --> 01:46:58.478
So I'm saying, well, hey, look,
I'm, I'm working here with the

01:46:58.478 --> 01:47:02.348
vagal nerve, but, but what can
I, how can I improve my practice?

01:47:02.348 --> 01:47:04.358
How can I, what can I learn?

01:47:04.358 --> 01:47:05.108
What can I,

01:47:05.748 --> 01:47:08.708
Rebecca Bailey: I want you to come to
our five day in August when you come to

01:47:08.708 --> 01:47:12.458
Sonoma, California and you come visit
your dear friend over at Square Pegs.

01:47:12.818 --> 01:47:14.408
We have a five day that you're

01:47:15.068 --> 01:47:15.518
Rupert Isaacson: Joel Dunlap.

01:47:15.518 --> 01:47:16.718
By the way, that is everybody.

01:47:17.198 --> 01:47:20.108
If you haven't listened to
her podcast, she's amazing.

01:47:20.528 --> 01:47:23.378
Gotta listen to Joel Dun that he's
the best people on the planet.

01:47:23.438 --> 01:47:24.008
Well, yes.

01:47:24.538 --> 01:47:28.228
What would I, what would me and Joel
do if we came to you to, you would,

01:47:28.448 --> 01:47:33.758
Rebecca Bailey: you would come to
our, our five day, the three days at

01:47:33.758 --> 01:47:39.188
level one and then level two, and you
would learn about how we work with the

01:47:39.188 --> 01:47:42.578
polyvagal, principles with the horses.

01:47:42.788 --> 01:47:44.318
And it's on the ground.

01:47:44.323 --> 01:47:47.798
You join a group of people that are
somewhat like-minded, who really wanna

01:47:47.798 --> 01:47:52.628
understand how to incorporate another
level of their own self-awareness

01:47:52.988 --> 01:47:54.548
and connection to the work.

01:47:54.938 --> 01:48:00.008
You could also go online and watch our
fundamentals class, and understand a

01:48:00.008 --> 01:48:01.568
little bit more of the fundamentals.

01:48:01.568 --> 01:48:05.768
But honestly, the best thing to do
is come and participate in the class.

01:48:05.768 --> 01:48:09.008
And what we really wanna do, if
you're really asking, is have some

01:48:09.008 --> 01:48:10.868
satellite programs that are doing it.

01:48:11.318 --> 01:48:13.718
And very much kind of like what
you've done with your horse boy

01:48:13.718 --> 01:48:15.398
is people that really understand.

01:48:15.638 --> 01:48:18.278
It's very interesting though,
Rupert, that you and I.

01:48:18.683 --> 01:48:21.983
Again, have run in the same
herds without meeting people.

01:48:21.983 --> 01:48:27.173
And people that mean the most in my
life, like joy from Red Barn and new

01:48:27.178 --> 01:48:30.983
friend of mine, Joelle, are very dear
friends of yours and very dear friends

01:48:30.988 --> 01:48:34.793
of mine, which tells me we're all
in the same sphere in a lot of ways.

01:48:35.453 --> 01:48:37.913
So I challenge you come
for five days with us.

01:48:37.913 --> 01:48:38.093
We

01:48:38.093 --> 01:48:41.393
Rupert Isaacson: invite, I, I'd love
to, I guess what I'm driving at, and I,

01:48:41.393 --> 01:48:48.293
I'm sure I'll actually is, is what do
you think, I or someone else in my shoes

01:48:48.983 --> 01:48:54.503
could take away to their practice that
okay, we get to your five days we go away.

01:48:55.223 --> 01:48:55.523
Right?

01:48:55.523 --> 01:48:55.853
Right.

01:48:55.913 --> 01:48:57.173
What, what, what, what?

01:48:57.173 --> 01:48:58.283
How do we improve our practice

01:48:58.283 --> 01:48:58.673
Rebecca Bailey: with this?

01:48:59.363 --> 01:49:02.183
You get outta your head, you
get outta your head, you get

01:49:02.213 --> 01:49:03.473
outta the amygdala stuff.

01:49:03.473 --> 01:49:04.613
You get out of all of that.

01:49:04.613 --> 01:49:07.883
And even you have done that a little bit
because that's your orientation, right?

01:49:07.883 --> 01:49:11.423
Just like if I come to one of your things,
I'm going to get something different.

01:49:11.423 --> 01:49:11.813
Mm-hmm.

01:49:11.813 --> 01:49:15.353
But you're gonna really get outta your
head back into your body in a way that

01:49:15.353 --> 01:49:19.793
you probably have naturally been doing
all these years anyways, and beginning to

01:49:19.798 --> 01:49:24.203
understand that piece and the nuance of
the interaction of the nervous systems.

01:49:24.683 --> 01:49:27.323
And you're gonna be stopped
from going back up into the

01:49:27.323 --> 01:49:28.943
medella and all of that piece.

01:49:28.943 --> 01:49:34.253
You're gonna be encouraged to go
back into this piece and sort of re.

01:49:34.898 --> 01:49:40.148
Reposition your perspective, and you may
walk away saying, I got it, I got it.

01:49:40.148 --> 01:49:41.318
I already knew all this.

01:49:41.318 --> 01:49:44.858
That Then we have a home run
because we want you to be

01:49:44.858 --> 01:49:46.418
imperative of who you already are.

01:49:47.258 --> 01:49:49.628
Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think you,
you answered my question with that,

01:49:49.868 --> 01:49:56.648
phrase, understand the nuances, the
interactions of the nervous systems.

01:49:57.008 --> 01:49:57.218
Yeah.

01:49:57.578 --> 01:49:57.818
Yeah.

01:49:57.818 --> 01:50:00.668
That, that, that's for me,
that piece of the puzzle.

01:50:00.908 --> 01:50:04.208
So when, when I'm going around,
for example, like you, I'm, I'm,

01:50:04.213 --> 01:50:08.558
I'm doing trainings and workshops
in different places, and people

01:50:08.558 --> 01:50:13.688
come and we say, look, we're not
telling you to do anything different.

01:50:13.718 --> 01:50:16.898
In fact, we know that you're doing
an amazing job wherever you are.

01:50:17.408 --> 01:50:19.658
Here are simply a series
of a set of tools.

01:50:20.348 --> 01:50:24.428
which if you add them to
your already awesome thing,

01:50:25.118 --> 01:50:26.768
simply, develops it further.

01:50:27.008 --> 01:50:27.518
That's all.

01:50:27.758 --> 01:50:30.038
But we, we know that if you
never interacted with us at

01:50:30.038 --> 01:50:31.418
all, you'd go on being awesome.

01:50:31.658 --> 01:50:32.438
It's just Right.

01:50:32.438 --> 01:50:32.678
I love that.

01:50:32.708 --> 01:50:33.178
Real curious.

01:50:33.428 --> 01:50:36.638
But what I, what I love about what
you just said, that is, and that

01:50:36.638 --> 01:50:39.098
would be the tempting thing for
me, is like, Ooh, actually, yeah.

01:50:39.128 --> 01:50:42.218
Cuz I, I do work with the nervous system.

01:50:42.223 --> 01:50:45.698
I'm deeply interested in the nervous
system, so anyone who can shine some

01:50:45.828 --> 01:50:48.728
light for me on further nuances.

01:50:48.728 --> 01:50:54.248
I mean, because that for me is a,
is a series of tools that I know I'm

01:50:54.248 --> 01:50:56.288
gonna be able to use effectively.

01:50:56.288 --> 01:50:59.318
Not just with the, the clients
that I'm working with, but also

01:50:59.318 --> 01:51:00.998
with myself, like as a user manual.

01:51:01.553 --> 01:51:06.263
Also my, my interactions with my own
horses in my sport horse and dressage

01:51:06.263 --> 01:51:12.233
life, not just in my equine assisted
life, nuances of the interaction

01:51:12.233 --> 01:51:13.613
to the different nervous systems.

01:51:13.618 --> 01:51:17.543
I can't imagine that any of us
could not benefit from that.

01:51:17.548 --> 01:51:17.843
Right.

01:51:19.193 --> 01:51:22.733
Rebecca Bailey: I, and I love when
people come and we learn too, and we

01:51:22.733 --> 01:51:26.363
get a lot of feedback, which I'm very
proud of where people say, this is

01:51:26.363 --> 01:51:30.863
one of the very few places that I feel
like I can bring my expertise too.

01:51:30.923 --> 01:51:34.013
And, and you know what I, I mean,
to me that's like so important.

01:51:34.013 --> 01:51:34.073
Yeah.

01:51:34.433 --> 01:51:37.373
And yes, we do have a personal
and professional awareness,

01:51:37.378 --> 01:51:40.913
one that we're also doing a
two days, which is really fun.

01:51:40.913 --> 01:51:43.673
People that maybe don't ever
wanna do equine work, they just

01:51:43.673 --> 01:51:45.233
wanna learn more about themselves.

01:51:45.233 --> 01:51:49.433
So, the most exciting thing though
is that I'm connecting with amazing,

01:51:49.433 --> 01:51:53.423
incredible people that I've always meant
to connect with, but never did before.

01:51:53.813 --> 01:51:56.843
And I'm so honored you had me on this

01:51:56.873 --> 01:51:57.473
Rupert Isaacson: podcast.

01:51:57.533 --> 01:51:58.553
It's a no-brainer.

01:51:58.553 --> 01:51:59.213
It's a no-brainer.

01:51:59.213 --> 01:52:00.653
I mean, I, I heard
about what you're doing.

01:52:00.653 --> 01:52:02.873
It's like, well, obviously
everyone needs to know about this.

01:52:02.903 --> 01:52:06.743
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's advancing the field.

01:52:07.433 --> 01:52:09.983
, some questions, you mentioned
a couple of people that I think

01:52:09.983 --> 01:52:12.173
people will be curious about.

01:52:12.323 --> 01:52:13.523
You mentioned Deb Dana.

01:52:14.003 --> 01:52:17.543
Can you tell us a little bit about
Deb Dana and where people could

01:52:17.543 --> 01:52:22.763
find out about her and what insights

01:52:22.763 --> 01:52:22.973
she

01:52:22.973 --> 01:52:23.423
Rebecca Bailey: can give?

01:52:24.623 --> 01:52:29.633
So Deb Dana is amazing in that
she is a very close friend of Dr.

01:52:29.633 --> 01:52:37.733
Porges and she sort of takes Porges work
and makes it more, understanding to lots

01:52:37.733 --> 01:52:42.953
of people and all you have to do, yeah,
all you have to do is put in Deb Day and

01:52:42.958 --> 01:52:44.183
Ann, you'll see all, all over the place.

01:52:44.183 --> 01:52:51.893
I do notice, do know that they are
going to be in, London at some master

01:52:51.893 --> 01:52:58.913
series in, the end of August and Porges
will be there with Deb and they're

01:52:58.913 --> 01:53:00.383
just really wonderful to listen to.

01:53:00.383 --> 01:53:02.873
I think Bessel will be
there, Steven Levine.

01:53:02.873 --> 01:53:07.103
So they're all, some of these guys
are part of the old school that

01:53:07.103 --> 01:53:11.873
have brought so much to the field
and Deb is very refreshing in that

01:53:11.873 --> 01:53:14.123
she has just a different style.

01:53:14.128 --> 01:53:19.283
She does very office-based work, but
very similar to something we do is like,

01:53:19.493 --> 01:53:21.293
do you want me to stand here or here?

01:53:21.293 --> 01:53:23.633
Where is it the most comfortable
in your nervous system?

01:53:23.843 --> 01:53:26.213
She does that work in her office.

01:53:26.213 --> 01:53:27.803
So she has a book called Anchored.

01:53:27.808 --> 01:53:31.493
She has a, she just has amazing
resources, so just put her in and

01:53:31.493 --> 01:53:32.783
you'll get more information than.

01:53:34.793 --> 01:53:37.043
Rupert Isaacson: So anchored
some someone's driving around and

01:53:37.043 --> 01:53:40.403
they might want to listen to an
audiobook anchored by Deb Dana, you

01:53:40.403 --> 01:53:43.073
Rebecca Bailey: mentioned it's good
if her voice is so soothing though.

01:53:43.078 --> 01:53:46.943
She can also put you to, I mean, I,
I've listened to her on planes and

01:53:46.948 --> 01:53:51.443
her voice is very much like this
and so I'm not sure I drive around.

01:53:51.443 --> 01:53:52.523
I might sit and listen,

01:53:52.528 --> 01:53:54.053
Rupert Isaacson: so, so don't
operate heavy machinery.

01:53:54.083 --> 01:53:54.563
Okay.

01:53:55.133 --> 01:53:57.293
you mentioned another
but Power of the Herd,

01:53:58.313 --> 01:54:01.703
Rebecca Bailey: that's Linda Kahani and
Linda Kahan is a good friend of mine

01:54:01.703 --> 01:54:04.068
and Des opponent Quest International.

01:54:04.068 --> 01:54:08.208
She and I met and worked
together many years ago.

01:54:08.213 --> 01:54:13.188
We started something called Connection
Focus Therapy, which is has grains

01:54:13.188 --> 01:54:14.748
of polyvagal very much in it.

01:54:14.748 --> 01:54:18.498
And she wrote a really neat book
called The Power of the Herd.

01:54:18.503 --> 01:54:20.928
She's written, she also wrote
the Dow of Equus and all sorts

01:54:20.928 --> 01:54:22.128
of books that people know.

01:54:22.458 --> 01:54:23.388
the power of the herd.

01:54:23.388 --> 01:54:29.118
I actually happen to like, because we
use it with a polyvagal twist of like

01:54:29.118 --> 01:54:31.218
looking at leadership characteristics.

01:54:31.218 --> 01:54:33.108
So it's another one Power of the Herd's.

01:54:33.113 --> 01:54:33.798
Really good.

01:54:34.308 --> 01:54:35.838
five roles of the master herd.

01:54:35.838 --> 01:54:39.138
She's written a lot of great stuff
and she's, she's really interesting.

01:54:40.128 --> 01:54:42.738
Rupert Isaacson: This, this brings me to
another thing which you said right at the

01:54:42.743 --> 01:54:47.298
beginning of of, of this conversation,
you talked about, study that had been

01:54:47.298 --> 01:54:54.558
done, with women who were used to working
with horses and other animals and it

01:54:54.558 --> 01:54:57.318
gave them that somehow measurably.

01:54:57.828 --> 01:54:59.688
This, leadership quality.

01:55:00.528 --> 01:55:00.858
Yep.

01:55:01.638 --> 01:55:07.128
Would you say that what you guys
are doing at Equine Polyvagal

01:55:07.128 --> 01:55:12.588
Institute might help people access
that kind of leadership quality?

01:55:12.593 --> 01:55:12.648
I

01:55:13.308 --> 01:55:13.848
Rebecca Bailey: think so.

01:55:13.848 --> 01:55:17.238
You know, I think about, I have a horse
now and I've ridden my whole life.

01:55:17.238 --> 01:55:21.048
I'm not, I'm an accomplished
rider, but not a horse.

01:55:21.048 --> 01:55:24.768
Professional horses kind of
spit tobacco at me and say,

01:55:24.768 --> 01:55:26.208
prove it before they listen.

01:55:26.568 --> 01:55:29.658
But I've had all sorts of wonderful
dressage horses, et cetera.

01:55:29.658 --> 01:55:34.578
And I recently got a horse about
two years ago who was a recovered

01:55:34.578 --> 01:55:36.168
bucking horse, believe it or not.

01:55:36.168 --> 01:55:36.198
Okay.

01:55:36.588 --> 01:55:40.398
And I fell in love with his look
and just fell in love with him.

01:55:40.398 --> 01:55:45.828
And if you ask him for the first
year, Rupert, we could only go forward

01:55:46.338 --> 01:55:48.108
two or three steps before he'd buck.

01:55:48.108 --> 01:55:48.138
Okay.

01:55:48.558 --> 01:55:51.678
And everybody was like, he's
got, you know, health problems.

01:55:51.683 --> 01:55:55.968
And the vet would say no in NF health
problems, it's taken me two years.

01:55:57.018 --> 01:56:00.168
He's the horse that I now think
of when I ride up on the hill.

01:56:00.468 --> 01:56:06.438
I had to learn to completely shift my
mindset to the power of connection.

01:56:06.498 --> 01:56:12.888
And so when I ride him, the only thing I'm
allowed to do is think 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2.

01:56:13.218 --> 01:56:16.818
I have to be a hundred percent with
him, a hundred percent with him.

01:56:17.118 --> 01:56:19.278
And he would take me to
the moon if he could.

01:56:20.298 --> 01:56:20.928
Period

01:56:21.078 --> 01:56:23.418
Rupert Isaacson: is the
power of connection, courage.

01:56:24.468 --> 01:56:28.608
Rebecca Bailey: I think it's,
no, I think it's, curiosity.

01:56:29.568 --> 01:56:33.318
I had to spend, I had to spend a
whole year trying to be curious

01:56:33.323 --> 01:56:37.398
about what would help this guy
get out of his activated state.

01:56:39.438 --> 01:56:39.618
How

01:56:39.618 --> 01:56:43.368
Rupert Isaacson: did you, how did
you override your parasympathetic

01:56:43.373 --> 01:56:44.338
fear of being bucked off?

01:56:44.718 --> 01:56:47.148
Rebecca Bailey: Oh, I just had
to keep reminding myself that I

01:56:47.148 --> 01:56:48.828
wasn't about to go on a horse show.

01:56:49.248 --> 01:56:52.278
I had to just keep, I had to
keep reminding myself that I

01:56:52.283 --> 01:56:53.868
was there for the connection.

01:56:53.868 --> 01:56:59.028
And I over and over and over, and my
dear friend Margie, who helped start the

01:56:59.028 --> 01:57:03.198
Polyvagal Institute with me, one of the
other founders, she said, you know, I,

01:57:03.228 --> 01:57:05.448
I've ridden for, with her for 43 years.

01:57:05.448 --> 01:57:09.588
I used to show with her and she said,
oh my God, I've waited for 40 years for

01:57:09.588 --> 01:57:14.358
you to find this horse, you know, and he
is put together with tobacco, you know,

01:57:14.363 --> 01:57:19.428
with gum, and, you know, and I've had
like Hannah variance and for caterers

01:57:19.428 --> 01:57:22.218
and, you know, third level dressage.

01:57:22.218 --> 01:57:25.038
And, but she's like,
he got, he, you got it.

01:57:25.308 --> 01:57:29.208
And it's, it's not courage,
because courage implies

01:57:29.213 --> 01:57:30.798
for me, dominance with him.

01:57:31.218 --> 01:57:33.498
It's just, listen, listen,

01:57:33.498 --> 01:57:33.948
Rupert Isaacson: be curious.

01:57:33.953 --> 01:57:36.708
What I mean by courage though, is
the courage to get on the back of

01:57:36.708 --> 01:57:42.528
a horse that, you know is likely
to buck and access that curiosity.

01:57:42.888 --> 01:57:43.488
But you know, what's,

01:57:43.968 --> 01:57:44.928
Rebecca Bailey: how is that not courage?

01:57:45.663 --> 01:57:48.483
Well, it's the, it's the match
of nervous system because think

01:57:48.483 --> 01:57:50.343
of Freia, the one that bucks.

01:57:50.373 --> 01:57:50.763
Mm-hmm.

01:57:51.003 --> 01:57:52.233
Two with the turkeys.

01:57:52.353 --> 01:57:53.913
I got no courage with that one.

01:57:53.913 --> 01:57:59.433
But my nervous system gets too activated
by her for whatever reason where summit

01:57:59.433 --> 01:58:02.283
can do the same thing, not quite as big.

01:58:02.463 --> 01:58:06.603
And my nervous system knows for
some reason how to calm down.

01:58:07.233 --> 01:58:08.853
So it's a match of nervous system.

01:58:08.853 --> 01:58:09.723
Maybe it's courage.

01:58:09.723 --> 01:58:10.323
I don't know.

01:58:10.383 --> 01:58:11.463
I, I is

01:58:11.463 --> 01:58:13.533
Rupert Isaacson: a match of nervous
systems, what we call chemistry,

01:58:14.883 --> 01:58:15.513
Rebecca Bailey: maybe.

01:58:15.663 --> 01:58:17.283
Yeah, maybe.

01:58:17.288 --> 01:58:18.333
Or maybe attunement.

01:58:18.333 --> 01:58:18.933
How about that?

01:58:18.933 --> 01:58:19.863
That's a better word.

01:58:20.163 --> 01:58:21.923
Attunement being really attuned each

01:58:21.923 --> 01:58:22.163
Rupert Isaacson: other.

01:58:22.168 --> 01:58:23.943
Explain, explain what
you mean by attunement.

01:58:24.033 --> 01:58:24.243
That's

01:58:24.243 --> 01:58:24.573
Rebecca Bailey: interesting.

01:58:24.603 --> 01:58:28.353
So attunement goes way back to
psychodynamic psychoanalytical stuff

01:58:28.353 --> 01:58:31.593
where, you know, your ability to
really sense the other person and the

01:58:31.593 --> 01:58:33.393
other, it's co-regulation at its best.

01:58:33.513 --> 01:58:33.543
Okay.

01:58:33.933 --> 01:58:36.753
attunement is what we used
to try to teach people.

01:58:37.368 --> 01:58:39.318
In the th in graduate schools.

01:58:39.318 --> 01:58:41.658
And yet it was often a one-way attunement.

01:58:41.658 --> 01:58:44.628
Like you never expected your
client to be in tuned with you.

01:58:44.928 --> 01:58:47.928
And I always was like, wait a
second, I'm in the room too.

01:58:47.988 --> 01:58:49.758
How come I'm not allowed to care?

01:58:50.058 --> 01:58:50.448
You know?

01:58:50.628 --> 01:58:54.888
And so I gave, some of my, and
that was the time I was hanging

01:58:54.888 --> 01:58:55.758
around with the Grateful Dead.

01:58:55.758 --> 01:58:57.438
I was doing my grad school work.

01:58:57.438 --> 01:58:59.328
And so I gave them a run for their money.

01:58:59.873 --> 01:59:01.998
I'd be like, that makes no sense.

01:59:02.448 --> 01:59:06.438
And honestly, Rupert, when I graduated
True story, the dean of student pulled

01:59:06.438 --> 01:59:10.248
me aside and said, you're one of
the few students we haven't ruined.

01:59:10.518 --> 01:59:11.508
And you know what I said?

01:59:11.598 --> 01:59:13.458
I said, cuz I didn't
understand a damn thing.

01:59:13.458 --> 01:59:14.958
You people were talking about it.

01:59:14.958 --> 01:59:15.648
And it's true.

01:59:15.648 --> 01:59:20.388
I didn't understand what they meant
with this thing of like, blank screen.

01:59:20.388 --> 01:59:21.218
It's like, what?

01:59:21.258 --> 01:59:22.068
What is that?

01:59:22.488 --> 01:59:22.698
Yeah.

01:59:22.728 --> 01:59:24.378
You know, I don't know what that means.

01:59:24.383 --> 01:59:26.328
What do you mean blank
screen with the client?

01:59:26.333 --> 01:59:27.138
I'm in there too.

01:59:27.138 --> 01:59:28.518
We're in a relationship.

01:59:28.928 --> 01:59:29.218
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:59:29.478 --> 01:59:29.688
Yeah.

01:59:29.693 --> 01:59:32.898
Really it it dealing with the world
as it is, as it comes to you, I guess.

01:59:32.958 --> 01:59:33.438
Yes.

01:59:34.098 --> 01:59:34.608
Yes.

01:59:35.838 --> 01:59:37.188
We talked about other people's books.

01:59:37.248 --> 01:59:38.028
you have books.

01:59:38.328 --> 01:59:39.228
Tell us about your books.

01:59:39.993 --> 01:59:40.143
I,

01:59:40.143 --> 01:59:43.173
Rebecca Bailey: you know, I have one
book and I say it's sort of apologetic.

01:59:43.203 --> 01:59:47.883
I, I self co, I self-publish Equine
Connection and polyvagal principles

01:59:47.883 --> 01:59:50.463
that I wrote during, COVID.

01:59:50.468 --> 01:59:54.633
It's basically just the beginning of a
throw down of the story of this work.

01:59:54.638 --> 01:59:56.193
It's not, it's not it yet.

01:59:56.193 --> 01:59:57.603
And I'm working on the it.

01:59:57.873 --> 02:00:00.123
I also have one Save Kids Smart Parents.

02:00:00.123 --> 02:00:02.973
It was as Simon and
Schuster published book.

02:00:03.033 --> 02:00:06.843
it, it's, it was actually quite good,
but it's a little bit hard to find.

02:00:06.843 --> 02:00:09.273
And then I also have, the
thing I'm really proud of is a

02:00:09.273 --> 02:00:11.883
paper with Deb Dana and a Dr.

02:00:11.883 --> 02:00:15.933
Davis on Polyvagal in the courtroom
looking at about how polyvagal

02:00:15.933 --> 02:00:19.383
principles and high conflict divorce,
how important it is that everybody,

02:00:19.383 --> 02:00:23.043
attorneys and judges all understand
the importance of regulation.

02:00:23.463 --> 02:00:26.403
And then I have this one I wrote
with Porges on Appeasement,

02:00:26.733 --> 02:00:30.453
which is, sub published in the
British Journal of Traumatology.

02:00:30.813 --> 02:00:36.573
So as a dyslexic who rambles a lot,
I'm very proud of the academic papers,

02:00:36.573 --> 02:00:41.193
although I would rather go get two
more crowns without Novocaine than

02:00:41.193 --> 02:00:43.023
continue to write the academic papers.

02:00:43.293 --> 02:00:45.993
But right now I'm working
on another polyvagal paper.

02:00:46.203 --> 02:00:48.273
I'm in another polyvagal book.

02:00:48.813 --> 02:00:51.753
and I also have a crazy book that
I'm thinking that, I won't tell you

02:00:51.753 --> 02:00:55.713
what it is until it's done, but I'll
give you a hint when we're not on the

02:00:55.713 --> 02:00:56.493
Rupert Isaacson: podcast.

02:00:56.583 --> 02:00:57.663
I've got one of those too.

02:00:57.813 --> 02:00:57.933
do you?

02:00:58.443 --> 02:00:58.863
Yeah, yeah.

02:00:58.868 --> 02:00:59.433
Which I've been saying.

02:00:59.473 --> 02:01:03.033
I'm, I'm gonna finish next year
for about the last 15 years.

02:01:03.123 --> 02:01:04.953
probably more like 20,
but I will finish it.

02:01:05.988 --> 02:01:08.658
Rebecca Bailey: But, alright, well,
we'll trade and then we'll check in with

02:01:08.658 --> 02:01:11.148
each other about it because Okay, good.

02:01:11.328 --> 02:01:11.838
I like it.

02:01:12.498 --> 02:01:12.948
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:01:12.948 --> 02:01:15.373
And then, so finally,
how do people contact you

02:01:16.513 --> 02:01:19.093
Rebecca Bailey: through the,
polyvagal Equine Institute?

02:01:19.093 --> 02:01:24.613
Ww polyvagal equine institute.com,
office at Polyvagal Equine Institute?

02:01:24.913 --> 02:01:29.563
I think it's also important to
know that JC Dugard, who was

02:01:29.563 --> 02:01:35.863
abducted at 11 and returned after,
gosh, 18 years with two children.

02:01:35.923 --> 02:01:39.523
I originally met her when she was
deposited literally in my program.

02:01:39.823 --> 02:01:44.173
She also wrote a really
interesting and yet very activating

02:01:44.323 --> 02:01:46.513
book called The Stolen Life.

02:01:46.963 --> 02:01:51.013
And the second half of the book is
very much about the type of equine

02:01:51.013 --> 02:01:53.443
work that we were doing at the time.

02:01:53.743 --> 02:01:56.293
she was, you know, people
say, oh my gosh, this was your

02:01:56.298 --> 02:01:57.703
client and now you're working.

02:01:57.943 --> 02:01:59.593
What happened after three years?

02:01:59.593 --> 02:02:02.653
She said, I do not want to
go forward being known as the

02:02:02.653 --> 02:02:03.973
little girl that was abducted.

02:02:03.973 --> 02:02:07.273
Can you help me make my
story mean something?

02:02:07.273 --> 02:02:11.713
So we went into consult for three
months and worked it out and, have gone

02:02:11.718 --> 02:02:14.833
forward to help create the Polyvagal
Equine Institute so that people can

02:02:14.833 --> 02:02:16.513
have some of the same experience.

02:02:16.813 --> 02:02:20.353
So her book A Stolen
Life, is also wonderful.

02:02:20.353 --> 02:02:23.953
Margie also has a book called, notes
from the Barn, which is really sweet.

02:02:23.953 --> 02:02:24.643
You'd really like it.

02:02:24.643 --> 02:02:25.273
Rupert too.

02:02:25.278 --> 02:02:25.723
So,

02:02:26.353 --> 02:02:28.333
Rupert Isaacson: so Jason, A Stolen Life.

02:02:29.068 --> 02:02:30.388
Margie McDonald.

02:02:30.558 --> 02:02:30.908
Notes.

02:02:30.913 --> 02:02:31.738
Notes for the phone.

02:02:32.178 --> 02:02:32.468
Rebecca Bailey: Okay.

02:02:32.498 --> 02:02:32.788
Yeah.

02:02:33.288 --> 02:02:35.608
And Polyvagal Equ Polyvagal Principles.

02:02:35.608 --> 02:02:37.618
Equine Connections or Safe Kids.

02:02:37.618 --> 02:02:38.548
Smart Parents.

02:02:38.728 --> 02:02:40.408
Rupert Isaacson: Polyvagal Principles.

02:02:40.468 --> 02:02:41.548
Equine connections.

02:02:41.608 --> 02:02:42.808
And safe kids.

02:02:42.958 --> 02:02:44.098
Smart parents.

02:02:44.578 --> 02:02:44.938
Okay.

02:02:44.938 --> 02:02:46.318
They can go on Amazon and find these.

02:02:46.918 --> 02:02:47.128
Yep.

02:02:47.548 --> 02:02:47.728
Okay.

02:02:47.998 --> 02:02:48.238
Yep.

02:02:48.778 --> 02:02:49.108
Okay.

02:02:49.228 --> 02:02:50.518
Listeners, you have your reading list.

02:02:51.298 --> 02:02:55.228
and one more time, give people the
URL they might have been driving.

02:02:55.228 --> 02:02:56.608
They might need to pull off and write it.

02:02:56.878 --> 02:02:58.468
Give us the url, give us your email.

02:02:59.068 --> 02:02:59.848
Rebecca Bailey: How can they contact you?

02:02:59.848 --> 02:03:06.748
It's ww polyvagal equine institute.com and
it's office at Polyvagal Equine Institute.

02:03:07.078 --> 02:03:12.298
And if you want something to get directly
to me, just say Rebecca or aka a Dr.

02:03:12.298 --> 02:03:14.518
B and I will get it.

02:03:14.878 --> 02:03:15.238
Super.

02:03:16.138 --> 02:03:16.468
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

02:03:17.218 --> 02:03:17.548
All right.

02:03:17.878 --> 02:03:19.013
I can't wait to come check it out.

02:03:19.703 --> 02:03:20.243
Yeah.

02:03:20.248 --> 02:03:20.633
Good.

02:03:20.753 --> 02:03:20.933
Yay.

02:03:20.933 --> 02:03:22.193
I will be in California.

02:03:22.193 --> 02:03:27.143
I'm, I'm, you know, I'm there every,
at least once a year, sometimes twice.

02:03:27.203 --> 02:03:29.243
so Can I swing

02:03:29.243 --> 02:03:31.673
Rebecca Bailey: by you better?

02:03:31.703 --> 02:03:34.828
You guys spoke better and,
maybe we can get joy back

02:03:34.828 --> 02:03:35.398
Rupert Isaacson: out here.

02:03:35.578 --> 02:03:36.118
Would love that.

02:03:36.178 --> 02:03:36.328
Yeah.

02:03:36.358 --> 02:03:36.568
Joy.

02:03:36.628 --> 02:03:36.958
Joy.

02:03:37.078 --> 02:03:37.318
Yeah.

02:03:37.318 --> 02:03:41.758
For those of you who might have missed
Joy O'Neill's, podcast that she did

02:03:41.763 --> 02:03:44.878
with us, that she runs Red Barn in
Alabama, one of the great unsung

02:03:44.878 --> 02:03:46.888
heroes of the equine assisted world.

02:03:47.158 --> 02:03:48.208
Check her

02:03:48.598 --> 02:03:48.898
Rebecca Bailey: out.

02:03:49.678 --> 02:03:50.488
She really is.

02:03:50.488 --> 02:03:53.878
You know, Rupert, after my house
burned down, my grandmother

02:03:53.883 --> 02:03:57.748
was a children's author and I'd
only mentioned it once to Joy.

02:03:58.018 --> 02:04:02.428
She went on and found every one of my
grandmother's books and sent them to me.

02:04:02.428 --> 02:04:02.488
Yeah.

02:04:02.878 --> 02:04:07.618
Within six weeks of my house burning down,
she, we call, we all call her mama Joy.

02:04:07.648 --> 02:04:09.268
And when you meet her, you understand.

02:04:09.268 --> 02:04:13.198
And she is absolutely, she and her
daughter are crazy and crazy amazing.

02:04:13.198 --> 02:04:13.738
So they're,

02:04:14.208 --> 02:04:18.868
Rupert Isaacson: they're, they're,
they're, and you know, as, as Jo Joy

02:04:18.873 --> 02:04:22.679
shows up, she's from Alabama, she's very
much a southern, but blah, blah, blah.

02:04:23.218 --> 02:04:25.558
Oh, I didn't realize she had
this whole punk rock background.

02:04:26.758 --> 02:04:29.128
And I was like, I love you forever, joy.

02:04:29.338 --> 02:04:30.658
You know, it's just like, yeah.

02:04:32.128 --> 02:04:35.728
Rebecca Bailey: Oh, a ask her to
tell you about who her boyfriends

02:04:35.728 --> 02:04:36.898
were in high school too.

02:04:36.958 --> 02:04:40.648
It's, it's, there's so many things
about her that you'll be driving

02:04:40.648 --> 02:04:43.438
down the road and she'll say
something and you'll go, what?

02:04:43.918 --> 02:04:45.328
So anyways.

02:04:46.158 --> 02:04:46.538
All right.

02:04:47.128 --> 02:04:47.398
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:04:47.398 --> 02:04:49.108
Well listen, thank you so, so much.

02:04:49.138 --> 02:04:50.278
Rebecca, this has been amazing.

02:04:50.278 --> 02:04:54.118
It's been in informative, it's been
educational, it's been inspirational.

02:04:55.048 --> 02:04:58.258
I look forward to more, if people
have, questions, would you come

02:04:58.258 --> 02:04:59.968
back on and maybe we could answer?

02:04:59.968 --> 02:05:00.298
Rebecca Bailey: Absolutely.

02:05:00.718 --> 02:05:01.348
I would love to.

02:05:01.848 --> 02:05:03.148
I would absolutely love to.

02:05:03.148 --> 02:05:05.368
Rupert Isaacson: So that's my sneaky
way of getting you for around two.

02:05:06.088 --> 02:05:06.328
I know.

02:05:06.328 --> 02:05:06.988
I'd love to.

02:05:07.346 --> 02:05:08.456
thank you for joining us.

02:05:08.486 --> 02:05:10.316
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

02:05:10.555 --> 02:05:15.595
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

02:05:15.595 --> 02:05:20.785
courses and live workshops in Horse Boy
Method, movement Method, and Athena.

02:05:21.492 --> 02:05:26.141
These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

02:05:26.141 --> 02:05:28.151
dealing with trauma around the world.

02:05:28.478 --> 02:05:32.228
We also offer a horse training
program and self-care program

02:05:32.228 --> 02:05:35.468
for riders on long ride home.com.

02:05:35.766 --> 02:05:39.816
These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

02:05:39.816 --> 02:05:41.736
bring you and your horse joy.

02:05:42.273 --> 02:05:46.833
For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

02:05:47.163 --> 02:05:48.093
See you on the next show.

02:05:48.506 --> 02:05:51.196
And please remember to
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