WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999
I have a request.

00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319
It really helps us get this work done.

00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814
com.

00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:46.559
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:46.559 --> 00:00:49.199
I've got a legend with me, Mary Wandless.

00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:55.524
Those of you who grew up with riding
through the 80s and into the 90s will

00:00:55.524 --> 00:00:57.794
know her very well and her programs.

00:00:57.854 --> 00:01:01.924
Those of you who came in more recently
may not, and if you don't, you should.

00:01:01.994 --> 00:01:08.694
Because Mary's been at the forefront
of, I would say, the movement to

00:01:08.694 --> 00:01:18.124
bring riding back into the humanities
and to humanize the whole process

00:01:18.124 --> 00:01:19.444
and make it more accessible.

00:01:19.944 --> 00:01:23.344
And moving away from the old models
of, you know, an instructor yelling

00:01:23.344 --> 00:01:28.284
at a student and hoping that by
increasing the decibel level,

00:01:28.294 --> 00:01:29.474
things will somehow get better.

00:01:29.874 --> 00:01:33.534
And actually looking at biomechanics,
actually looking at what's going

00:01:33.534 --> 00:01:38.584
on in the mind, actually looking
at equine and human well being and

00:01:38.584 --> 00:01:40.064
so on and putting that together.

00:01:40.354 --> 00:01:43.764
And it's, one can think these days
that that's, oh yeah, that's a no

00:01:43.764 --> 00:01:44.755
brainer, of course we do all that.

00:01:44.935 --> 00:01:46.285
But it wasn't always so.

00:01:46.584 --> 00:01:50.235
And these conversations
were a bit taboo, actually.

00:01:50.735 --> 00:01:55.815
Back in the day, and it was pioneering
people who were not afraid to be

00:01:55.825 --> 00:02:00.184
snickered at and laughed at and perhaps
a little bit even looked down upon for

00:02:00.184 --> 00:02:03.995
taking an alternative approach, who
of course are now the mentors that we

00:02:03.995 --> 00:02:06.225
all look to, and Mary is one of them.

00:02:06.410 --> 00:02:11.540
So let's find out about how she can
help us with us and our endeavors in

00:02:11.540 --> 00:02:15.470
the equine assisted world to provide
wellbeing to humans and horses together.

00:02:15.470 --> 00:02:17.059
So welcome Mary.

00:02:17.130 --> 00:02:19.610
And can you tell us who
you are and what you do?

00:02:20.750 --> 00:02:27.150
Mary Wanless: Gosh, well, I'm a riding
coach and I have had a big part in

00:02:27.170 --> 00:02:32.280
creating the field of rider biomechanics,
largely because I grew up with instructors

00:02:32.290 --> 00:02:36.880
that kind of shouted louder at the natives
and couldn't tell anybody how to do it.

00:02:36.910 --> 00:02:39.509
You know, it was do it now,
do it again, do it more, do it

00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:41.920
better, do it because I said so.

00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:46.800
And clearly I had no talent
and that wasn't going to work.

00:02:47.900 --> 00:02:52.560
So I was a passionate horse kid and
Begged for riding lessons for 10 years.

00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:57.590
And eventually when I was 14, got
myself on the back of a horse and

00:02:57.630 --> 00:03:03.909
it kind of went from there, but it
became apparent to me, well, early

00:03:03.909 --> 00:03:07.439
on, I just thought like I was stupid
and incapable and not talented, which.

00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:09.060
You know, I'm certainly not talented.

00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:10.050
I'm not quite stupid.

00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:16.609
And I, some fears, some spheres, I'm
pretty incapable, but I set out to try and

00:03:16.609 --> 00:03:21.739
find out what talented riders were doing
that they didn't say they were doing, but

00:03:21.739 --> 00:03:26.580
that only happened after I'd had a crisis
where I actually gave up riding in despair

00:03:27.530 --> 00:03:30.589
and it required that giving up for me to.

00:03:31.075 --> 00:03:35.145
Look at it from first principles and look
at it in a way with a physicist's brain.

00:03:35.145 --> 00:03:38.505
I have a degree in physics
and go, what's going on here?

00:03:38.505 --> 00:03:40.195
There have to be rules
of cause and effect.

00:03:40.215 --> 00:03:41.775
How the heck does this work?

00:03:42.295 --> 00:03:43.394
Rupert Isaacson: You sound like Elon

00:03:43.395 --> 00:03:45.314
Mary Wanless: Musk.

00:03:45.394 --> 00:03:45.995
Not quite.

00:03:46.015 --> 00:03:46.345
No,

00:03:47.005 --> 00:03:47.915
Rupert Isaacson: that's
apparently his things.

00:03:47.935 --> 00:03:49.334
First principles, you know, let's go back.

00:03:49.615 --> 00:03:50.404
But, but you're right.

00:03:50.435 --> 00:03:51.632
First principles are very useful.

00:03:51.632 --> 00:03:53.675
And I think a physicist's eye.

00:03:54.125 --> 00:03:58.995
in this is really helpful because what
are we dealing with here, if not physics?

00:03:59.095 --> 00:04:03.134
The natural world and how things
move through time and space.

00:04:03.715 --> 00:04:08.555
Talk to us about that
despair and why did it come?

00:04:09.105 --> 00:04:14.255
What did you do about it and how did
it lead you to your present work?

00:04:15.535 --> 00:04:19.335
Mary Wanless: So I you know, I hadn't
done much more than hairy ponies

00:04:19.335 --> 00:04:22.325
and muddy fields and a few riding
holidays before I went to university.

00:04:23.870 --> 00:04:29.670
And arrived at Bristol and with
a friend, we, we sat about in our

00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:33.630
second year, really trying to make the
riding club more open to other people.

00:04:34.310 --> 00:04:39.349
And the riding club gave me much
more experience of different places,

00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:41.139
different people, riding arenas.

00:04:43.705 --> 00:04:48.835
And I did my AI during my first
summer vacation, so that's the

00:04:48.835 --> 00:04:51.595
assistant instructor's exam as
it was then, for those of you who

00:04:51.595 --> 00:04:55.224
aren't British and old enough to
know and I just about passed that.

00:04:56.365 --> 00:05:01.575
And it was a sequence of
events that got me doing that.

00:05:01.585 --> 00:05:04.295
Cause basically my mother
had died when I was 16.

00:05:04.305 --> 00:05:07.795
My dad died when I was 18 during
my first term at university.

00:05:08.195 --> 00:05:11.635
And so I actually had nowhere
to go for the summer vacation.

00:05:12.145 --> 00:05:12.465
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

00:05:12.475 --> 00:05:12.505
And

00:05:12.564 --> 00:05:14.874
Mary Wanless: when my friend said,
wow, well, why don't you go to the

00:05:14.874 --> 00:05:19.505
place where I kept my pony and, and
work and see if you can get your AI.

00:05:20.295 --> 00:05:21.495
So I had nothing better to do.

00:05:21.495 --> 00:05:23.345
And I loved the idea
of being around horses.

00:05:23.345 --> 00:05:24.265
So that was what I did.

00:05:25.215 --> 00:05:29.655
And got to ride on some of the university
teams, but it tended to be that we had

00:05:29.655 --> 00:05:31.515
three in a team and I was number four.

00:05:32.015 --> 00:05:35.225
But we were fairly, we, we divvied
out these places in teams in

00:05:35.225 --> 00:05:36.515
the unimportant competition.

00:05:36.515 --> 00:05:38.064
So I did get to ride a bit.

00:05:38.644 --> 00:05:43.035
And when I left university, I decided
to take a year out and play with horses.

00:05:43.775 --> 00:05:45.945
And I thought I'd quote,
get it out of my system.

00:05:46.005 --> 00:05:46.745
That was the plan.

00:05:47.355 --> 00:05:48.165
And it didn't work.

00:05:48.715 --> 00:05:51.925
I got a place to go back and
do post grad teacher training.

00:05:51.945 --> 00:05:52.365
Sorry.

00:05:52.575 --> 00:05:54.425
Rupert Isaacson: I seem to remember
saying that to myself once.

00:05:54.465 --> 00:05:54.715
Yeah.

00:05:54.764 --> 00:05:55.264
Mary Wanless: Yeah.

00:05:55.905 --> 00:05:56.935
Get it out of my system.

00:05:57.485 --> 00:05:59.215
So I took a year off after I graduated.

00:06:00.005 --> 00:06:01.955
to play with horses and
get it out of my system.

00:06:02.505 --> 00:06:07.685
I had a place to go back to Bristol and
do postgrad teacher training, which I did.

00:06:09.595 --> 00:06:11.685
And I lasted about six weeks.

00:06:11.685 --> 00:06:13.845
And during that time, I started
getting headaches and I was

00:06:13.845 --> 00:06:14.985
feeling pretty miserable.

00:06:15.015 --> 00:06:19.164
And I had the biggest blinding flash of
light experience I've ever had, which was,

00:06:19.495 --> 00:06:24.534
I don't actually give a damn or a toss
if kids don't understand Newton's laws.

00:06:26.335 --> 00:06:31.285
And I quit and played around with
youth schemes, working in youth

00:06:31.285 --> 00:06:32.875
clubs and with unemployed youth.

00:06:33.425 --> 00:06:33.875
Why?

00:06:33.905 --> 00:06:34.315
Why did

00:06:34.315 --> 00:06:34.965
Rupert Isaacson: you do

00:06:34.965 --> 00:06:35.289
Mary Wanless: that?

00:06:35.289 --> 00:06:37.720
I needed money.

00:06:38.650 --> 00:06:40.570
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but you could
have made money in a dozen ways.

00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:41.520
You know, it

00:06:41.530 --> 00:06:42.380
Mary Wanless: seemed do able.

00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:48.235
Well, I think I already I mean, I was a
pretty vulnerable young person, you know,

00:06:48.305 --> 00:06:54.885
the whole situation of my upbringing and
then my parents deaths cast a big shadow.

00:06:55.915 --> 00:07:02.155
So I had a, an empathy with
people who are vulnerable and

00:07:04.655 --> 00:07:06.275
I guess I saw some ads somewhere.

00:07:06.285 --> 00:07:07.105
I don't know.

00:07:07.475 --> 00:07:10.255
You know, I could have tried working
in a shop or something like that.

00:07:10.695 --> 00:07:13.575
It was something I could do that
was a shift here and a shift

00:07:13.575 --> 00:07:15.575
there and largely evenings.

00:07:15.995 --> 00:07:18.175
and a friend and I were
owning a horse between us.

00:07:18.175 --> 00:07:22.385
She was doing the post grad teacher
training and it just wouldn't have worked

00:07:22.385 --> 00:07:23.975
without me having more time actually.

00:07:23.975 --> 00:07:27.595
We went into it incredibly optimistic
in terms of how much you can study

00:07:27.595 --> 00:07:29.505
and have a horse and make it work.

00:07:31.385 --> 00:07:32.275
So that's a good question.

00:07:32.275 --> 00:07:33.165
Why did I do that?

00:07:33.345 --> 00:07:38.085
It, it just, I saw some ads, it
felt like something I could do.

00:07:38.565 --> 00:07:41.055
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, how long did
you do that for and what kind of work

00:07:41.065 --> 00:07:42.385
with these young people did you do?

00:07:42.885 --> 00:07:45.025
Mary Wanless: I did a couple of
evenings a week in a youth club.

00:07:45.645 --> 00:07:46.245
Rupert Isaacson: Doing what?

00:07:46.650 --> 00:07:48.710
Mary Wanless: Hanging
out with mostly the girls

00:07:49.090 --> 00:07:49.420
Rupert Isaacson: talking.

00:07:49.630 --> 00:07:52.660
Mary Wanless: I ended up with
a little dance class going.

00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.510
I'd done a lot of ballet in my
youth and then some other dance and

00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.380
expressive kind of non structured dance.

00:07:59.430 --> 00:08:00.860
So I ended up with a little dance class.

00:08:01.585 --> 00:08:02.425
With the girls.

00:08:03.045 --> 00:08:03.855
Rupert Isaacson: What year is this?

00:08:04.695 --> 00:08:07.765
Mary Wanless: It's 1970 75.

00:08:11.675 --> 00:08:14.525
And then in the youth clubs it
was just kind of hanging out

00:08:14.525 --> 00:08:18.115
with the guys and playing snooker
with them and things like that.

00:08:18.115 --> 00:08:20.905
You know, it wasn't very
helpful program, I don't think.

00:08:21.235 --> 00:08:23.665
Rupert Isaacson: And you weren't terribly
old, much older than them either.

00:08:23.725 --> 00:08:24.475
Mary Wanless: No, I wasn't.

00:08:24.595 --> 00:08:25.735
Rupert Isaacson: You were
more of a contemporary

00:08:25.735 --> 00:08:26.690
Mary Wanless: No, I was 22, 23.

00:08:29.010 --> 00:08:31.080
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm just, I'm
just casting my mind back to that.

00:08:31.080 --> 00:08:34.360
And that's when I was at primary school,
but you know, I'm, I'm thinking, Oh

00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:37.240
yes, ABBA Queen is big in the charts.

00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:39.440
People have the seventies haircuts.

00:08:39.680 --> 00:08:42.060
Football hooliganism is
suddenly a conversation.

00:08:42.470 --> 00:08:47.730
But yeah, flared trousers,
but there was disco.

00:08:48.280 --> 00:08:49.890
But there was still a.

00:08:52.255 --> 00:08:56.200
I feel there was still a kind
of an optimism to that decade.

00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:56.618
You

00:08:56.618 --> 00:09:00.725
Mary Wanless: know, I never
felt caught up in the 70s

00:09:00.725 --> 00:09:02.184
Rupert Isaacson: pessimism.

00:09:02.465 --> 00:09:04.565
Mary Wanless: You know,
economically it was difficult.

00:09:05.155 --> 00:09:07.295
I was doing my own thing
in my own little world.

00:09:07.295 --> 00:09:12.575
You know, I really wasn't listening
to news and being, I didn't have

00:09:12.585 --> 00:09:14.835
a very whole worldly perspective.

00:09:15.475 --> 00:09:19.365
And in many ways I was taken up with
myself as a somewhat troubled person.

00:09:20.155 --> 00:09:20.265
Well,

00:09:20.785 --> 00:09:21.145
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

00:09:21.355 --> 00:09:23.675
Mary Wanless: And horses and
kids and that was my world.

00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:28.370
Rupert Isaacson: I'm also just thinking
now, looking outside the window and seeing

00:09:28.370 --> 00:09:32.820
the first punks coming by in 1977 and
realising that the world had changed.

00:09:33.020 --> 00:09:34.659
Perhaps in a better way.

00:09:35.699 --> 00:09:36.039
Say what?

00:09:36.619 --> 00:09:38.589
Mary Wanless: I missed, I
missed the whole punk thing.

00:09:38.649 --> 00:09:40.339
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, there's always
time, there's always time Mary.

00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:42.679
It's punk's not dead.

00:09:43.309 --> 00:09:45.239
But why were you vulnerable growing up?

00:09:45.269 --> 00:09:49.319
What, what were the vulnerabilities
and what were you carrying with you?

00:09:50.009 --> 00:09:53.819
Because I think this will really
help us in this Equine Assisted

00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:55.276
conversation to understand where we're

00:09:55.276 --> 00:09:55.812
Mary Wanless: coming from.

00:09:55.812 --> 00:10:00.191
I think part of it was being born
into a family where my mum and dad

00:10:00.201 --> 00:10:04.601
had very little education and thought
education was the answer to everything.

00:10:04.891 --> 00:10:05.251
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:10:06.081 --> 00:10:06.811
Mary Wanless: And

00:10:06.991 --> 00:10:07.861
Rupert Isaacson: There's
some pressure there.

00:10:08.261 --> 00:10:09.321
Mary Wanless: There was a lot of pressure.

00:10:09.361 --> 00:10:14.271
Now I'm very sure now that I'm dyslexic,
at the time dyslexia didn't exist.

00:10:14.281 --> 00:10:16.311
I was called careless if I got things.

00:10:16.591 --> 00:10:17.871
back to front and upside down.

00:10:17.891 --> 00:10:18.811
I'm left handed.

00:10:19.261 --> 00:10:21.501
You had to write with a
fountain pen in those days.

00:10:21.521 --> 00:10:25.431
It's hard to write with a fountain
pen and not get your hand over

00:10:25.431 --> 00:10:26.801
the writing and make a mess.

00:10:26.811 --> 00:10:28.401
You know, I was messy.

00:10:28.401 --> 00:10:29.971
I got things back to front.

00:10:33.761 --> 00:10:35.931
I think I may also be ADHD.

00:10:35.931 --> 00:10:39.951
I'm not so sure on that, but I'm
definitely capable of the hyper focus.

00:10:41.036 --> 00:10:41.586
Part of that.

00:10:42.136 --> 00:10:43.606
And I worked really hard in school.

00:10:43.616 --> 00:10:48.166
I mean, I saw I have a very smart oldest
brother, really seriously smart oldest

00:10:48.166 --> 00:10:52.706
brother, and then a brother who was in his
shadow and really wasn't very academic.

00:10:53.626 --> 00:10:55.696
And I was kind of trying hard,

00:10:57.836 --> 00:11:02.756
following up quite a few years behind
seeing how well it didn't work out for

00:11:02.766 --> 00:11:08.831
my middle brother who kind of went I'm
not into this and you know, I did pretty

00:11:08.831 --> 00:11:13.521
well, got loads of O levels and viable
A levels, got into a good university.

00:11:13.911 --> 00:11:19.386
I could do maths much better
than I could do English and Arts.

00:11:21.436 --> 00:11:23.736
Although I shocked myself and
everybody, I think, by getting

00:11:23.766 --> 00:11:26.276
A's in English Literature and
English Language at O Level.

00:11:26.276 --> 00:11:29.406
The spelling gods must have been
with me on those days, I don't know.

00:11:29.466 --> 00:11:32.136
But, that was an almighty shock.

00:11:33.716 --> 00:11:36.526
But I got myself backed into a corner
where Physics and Maths was what

00:11:36.526 --> 00:11:40.226
I did at O Level, at A Level, and
then it's what you do at University.

00:11:42.006 --> 00:11:42.286
Rupert Isaacson: But,

00:11:42.336 --> 00:11:46.706
Mary Wanless: so the pressure
academically was really difficult.

00:11:47.256 --> 00:11:48.136
And

00:11:51.056 --> 00:11:54.396
You know, I, I did get a place
at a direct grant school.

00:11:57.246 --> 00:11:59.186
So I must have done well
enough in the 11 plus.

00:11:59.466 --> 00:12:00.546
Bristol's a top university.

00:12:01.316 --> 00:12:01.556
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:12:02.716 --> 00:12:05.046
Mary Wanless: But it was all a struggle.

00:12:05.516 --> 00:12:06.526
It was a real struggle.

00:12:06.926 --> 00:12:10.316
And it was a very rigid
and very religious family.

00:12:10.316 --> 00:12:16.126
And my mother used the whole
religious thing in quite a nasty way.

00:12:16.166 --> 00:12:17.326
There was a lot of shame.

00:12:17.546 --> 00:12:17.866
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to

00:12:17.866 --> 00:12:20.006
Mary Wanless: us

00:12:20.186 --> 00:12:21.486
Rupert Isaacson: about
that as best you can.

00:12:21.936 --> 00:12:25.276
I presume this was, you know,
Christianity, but what, what form, how

00:12:25.276 --> 00:12:26.956
did the shame, how did the shame work?

00:12:26.956 --> 00:12:27.686
She was

00:12:27.916 --> 00:12:31.496
Mary Wanless: a Christian
scientist, which is not well known.

00:12:31.921 --> 00:12:35.381
And you know, if you were ill, you
had to get your thinking straight.

00:12:35.431 --> 00:12:39.251
And yeah, so, so there was
a whole punitive level about

00:12:39.251 --> 00:12:41.301
being ill or being not perfect.

00:12:41.681 --> 00:12:45.721
I think she wanted to pretend she didn't
have a body and bodies didn't exist.

00:12:46.831 --> 00:12:51.581
She then, when I was 14, became quite
ill and had cancer and didn't have.

00:12:51.756 --> 00:12:53.196
treatment until it was too late.

00:12:53.226 --> 00:12:57.306
I can imagine there were major
arguments between my father and her.

00:12:57.516 --> 00:12:58.806
Rupert Isaacson: He was
not a Christian scientist.

00:12:58.936 --> 00:12:59.846
Mary Wanless: He towed the line.

00:13:00.986 --> 00:13:04.206
And, and during, so it, there's
more family history to this too.

00:13:04.436 --> 00:13:11.361
During the First World War, my mother's
mother, as I understand it, lost seven

00:13:12.761 --> 00:13:18.641
male members of the family or family
friends, and she had a breakdown.

00:13:19.571 --> 00:13:21.121
And then the second world war.

00:13:22.311 --> 00:13:24.811
So my mom was a child
during the first world war.

00:13:25.691 --> 00:13:27.331
I was the child of their older age.

00:13:28.761 --> 00:13:33.241
And during the second world war,
my dad had his own business and

00:13:33.251 --> 00:13:36.631
he was firefighting at night.

00:13:37.391 --> 00:13:40.761
In the Blitz in London, and my
mum took over running his shop.

00:13:41.321 --> 00:13:42.281
Rupert Isaacson: Which
was what kind of shop?

00:13:43.081 --> 00:13:43.441
Mary Wanless: Sorry?

00:13:43.701 --> 00:13:44.836
Rupert Isaacson: What kind of shop was it?

00:13:44.836 --> 00:13:46.681
Mary Wanless: It was
sports and leather goods.

00:13:46.681 --> 00:13:51.441
Nothing horsey, but sports,
leather goods Sibutio football.

00:13:51.451 --> 00:13:52.811
Do you remember Sibutio football?

00:13:52.941 --> 00:13:53.011
I

00:13:53.011 --> 00:13:53.651
Rupert Isaacson: do remember Sibutio.

00:13:53.721 --> 00:13:56.501
Little footballers, and you'd stick to

00:13:56.501 --> 00:13:56.631
Mary Wanless: them.

00:13:56.881 --> 00:14:00.151
Yeah, football boots and
shirts for the local schools.

00:14:00.221 --> 00:14:01.071
Fish and tackle.

00:14:01.621 --> 00:14:03.571
Fireworks at the right time of year.

00:14:03.671 --> 00:14:07.581
I have memories of being knee high to a
grasshopper looking at the fireworks in

00:14:07.581 --> 00:14:12.361
the firework cabinet and we got to buy
them with our pocket money at cost price.

00:14:12.401 --> 00:14:15.261
We had the best firework
parties in our street.

00:14:16.601 --> 00:14:20.581
Rupert Isaacson: So, your mum,
your dad was, okay, so he was

00:14:20.591 --> 00:14:21.471
firefighting in the blitz.

00:14:21.471 --> 00:14:24.521
He's a shopkeeper coming up
through the blitz in the war.

00:14:25.261 --> 00:14:25.321
Yes.

00:14:25.901 --> 00:14:32.281
Older, when they have you,
mum is Christian Scientist.

00:14:33.081 --> 00:14:36.991
Mary Wanless: So mum was
in hospital during the war.

00:14:37.291 --> 00:14:41.961
I think there was a Christian
Science visitor and that got her

00:14:42.031 --> 00:14:44.261
into an OK functioning state.

00:14:44.481 --> 00:14:44.821
Kind of.

00:14:46.801 --> 00:14:50.161
So I think my dad wouldn't
challenge it because it was

00:14:50.241 --> 00:14:53.181
too fundamental to her OK ness.

00:14:55.121 --> 00:14:57.781
Yeah but it wasn't a very
okay version of okay.

00:14:58.101 --> 00:15:00.431
Rupert Isaacson: Are there things, I don't
know much about Christian science stuff,

00:15:00.611 --> 00:15:03.421
are there things you're not allowed to do,
are there taboos, are there big no no's?

00:15:03.601 --> 00:15:08.071
Mary Wanless: Oh, there's no drinking
no drugs, you know, no gods before me.

00:15:08.961 --> 00:15:09.501
Rupert Isaacson: No fun.

00:15:10.221 --> 00:15:12.931
Mary Wanless: Supposedly no coffee,
my mum did have a cup of coffee every

00:15:12.931 --> 00:15:16.991
day, but supposedly no coffee, nothing
that could be addictive or whatever.

00:15:17.281 --> 00:15:20.721
So it is a pretty strict regime
by most people's standards.

00:15:21.121 --> 00:15:22.511
Rupert Isaacson: So
not a bundle of laughs?

00:15:22.721 --> 00:15:23.721
Mary Wanless: Not a bundle of laughs.

00:15:23.751 --> 00:15:25.581
No, not a bundle of laughs.

00:15:25.751 --> 00:15:26.631
Rupert Isaacson: And then you And I had

00:15:26.631 --> 00:15:28.901
Mary Wanless: the odd moment
where I felt like I got it,

00:15:29.961 --> 00:15:30.081
Rupert Isaacson: you know,

00:15:30.371 --> 00:15:30.971
Mary Wanless: I understood it.

00:15:32.091 --> 00:15:38.541
And nowadays, X years on, would
have a philosophy which is not

00:15:38.541 --> 00:15:41.371
that different, but doesn't
have the punitive element to it.

00:15:42.791 --> 00:15:44.131
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me
about the punitive element.

00:15:44.181 --> 00:15:47.856
I mean, it's just Is it the standard
Christian punitive element, i.

00:15:47.866 --> 00:15:47.876
e.

00:15:48.186 --> 00:15:49.366
tear the line or go to hell?

00:15:50.056 --> 00:15:51.736
Or something more than that?

00:15:52.296 --> 00:15:55.406
Mary Wanless: There wasn't more than,
there wasn't a lot of talk about hell.

00:15:55.926 --> 00:16:02.246
I think my mum must have had a lot of this
growing up in her childhood, and a lot of

00:16:02.386 --> 00:16:08.121
shame, and anything we did that, you know,

00:16:10.311 --> 00:16:11.461
cross the boundary for her.

00:16:11.521 --> 00:16:12.261
I mean, we got it.

00:16:12.271 --> 00:16:14.321
When her shame got triggered, we got it.

00:16:14.951 --> 00:16:16.941
Rupert Isaacson: And when you got
it, that would be being screamed at?

00:16:16.941 --> 00:16:17.561
She'd hit you?

00:16:17.721 --> 00:16:19.021
No, there was

00:16:19.021 --> 00:16:22.521
Mary Wanless: nothing physical,
but it was kind of being yelled

00:16:22.521 --> 00:16:25.261
at in get your thinking straight.

00:16:25.261 --> 00:16:26.301
I thought I knew you.

00:16:26.311 --> 00:16:27.041
Who do you think you are?

00:16:28.086 --> 00:16:29.006
La la la la la.

00:16:29.006 --> 00:16:29.471
Effectively

00:16:29.471 --> 00:16:31.331
Rupert Isaacson: you're a bad person.

00:16:31.331 --> 00:16:31.796
Yes.

00:16:31.796 --> 00:16:32.261
Yes.

00:16:32.261 --> 00:16:32.726
There

00:16:33.406 --> 00:16:35.156
Mary Wanless: was an awful
lot of You are a bad person.

00:16:37.106 --> 00:16:39.616
And you know, there was
nothing for it in the end.

00:16:39.636 --> 00:16:44.163
But to come back,
capitulate, apologise and

00:16:44.163 --> 00:16:45.226
Rupert Isaacson: Appease.

00:16:47.386 --> 00:16:52.106
Mary Wanless: And I think it was partly
and in a way I do wonder if she was

00:16:52.361 --> 00:16:55.421
pretty much a narcissist, you know,
she never apologized for anything.

00:16:55.431 --> 00:16:57.621
She didn't do anything wrong.

00:16:57.631 --> 00:16:59.751
Rupert Isaacson: Well, people
didn't in those days, did

00:16:59.751 --> 00:17:00.061
Mary Wanless: we?

00:17:00.221 --> 00:17:01.331
Rupert Isaacson: It was
the culture, wasn't it?

00:17:01.331 --> 00:17:01.751
I mean, nobody

00:17:01.891 --> 00:17:02.771
Mary Wanless: was the culture.

00:17:02.881 --> 00:17:03.941
Yes, it was the culture.

00:17:03.941 --> 00:17:05.351
Parents were perfect.

00:17:06.301 --> 00:17:08.091
Children were to be made in an image.

00:17:08.131 --> 00:17:09.111
That wasn't me.

00:17:09.141 --> 00:17:12.941
I mean, this This woman had two boys,
desperately wanted a little girl.

00:17:13.231 --> 00:17:16.661
Her story was she had to wait however
many years before she could bear

00:17:16.661 --> 00:17:18.091
the fact she might have a third boy.

00:17:18.921 --> 00:17:20.261
I think that was a cover up story.

00:17:20.261 --> 00:17:22.191
I think it was all an accident, probably.

00:17:22.191 --> 00:17:24.131
She was 43 when I was born.

00:17:24.471 --> 00:17:24.841
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:17:25.041 --> 00:17:26.431
Mary Wanless: And then she
got the wrong little girl.

00:17:28.071 --> 00:17:29.771
Rupert Isaacson: Why were
you the wrong little girl?

00:17:30.191 --> 00:17:31.511
Mary Wanless: I didn't
like wearing dresses.

00:17:33.501 --> 00:17:38.281
I didn't like, I, I, I was, I'd
learned to sew, I learned to cook,

00:17:38.281 --> 00:17:39.951
I was okay with all of those things.

00:17:40.191 --> 00:17:43.771
Actually the place where my mother
supported me the most was doing creative

00:17:43.771 --> 00:17:47.881
things, even if what I was doing was
gluing together cotton wool balls and

00:17:47.881 --> 00:17:52.421
making little things and sticking feet
on them, she'd go, Oh, that's lovely.

00:17:52.971 --> 00:17:56.061
So she actually really supported
me in doing things like that.

00:17:56.061 --> 00:17:56.621
Crochet.

00:17:56.621 --> 00:18:00.461
You know, I did lots, made my own clothes,
did lots of those kinds of things and

00:18:00.461 --> 00:18:05.931
actually would have been way more suited
to doing something creative than trying

00:18:05.931 --> 00:18:07.741
to be an academic, which I really wasn't.

00:18:07.796 --> 00:18:11.286
And now I think I fall between two stools
because the real academic horse world

00:18:11.286 --> 00:18:14.316
doesn't think I'm academic enough and the
average rider thinks I'm too academic.

00:18:15.296 --> 00:18:18.296
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's always, I
think, a good sign if you're pissing

00:18:18.296 --> 00:18:22.416
off both sides of the camp then it means
you're probably doing something wrong.

00:18:22.466 --> 00:18:25.606
Okay, so one of the reasons I would
sort of go into this and start asking

00:18:25.716 --> 00:18:28.206
you all these questions is because
obviously, you know, I think this is

00:18:30.341 --> 00:18:32.431
You know, something a lot of young
people struggle with a lot, you know,

00:18:32.431 --> 00:18:37.521
and, and when I say young people, we're
all the same young people that we always

00:18:37.521 --> 00:18:42.121
were, and we're all the same lost eight
year old, and we're all the same, you

00:18:42.121 --> 00:18:47.051
know, over anxious, wanting to please
three year old, and we're all, and

00:18:47.061 --> 00:18:52.221
we're also the joyful child, and we're
also the curious kid and adolescent,

00:18:52.221 --> 00:18:56.641
and we, I, we, I feel we always, we
carry all of our past selves with us.

00:18:57.381 --> 00:19:02.011
And then we hit adulthood
and well, there they all are.

00:19:02.421 --> 00:19:07.541
And so it's interesting to me that,
you know, without thinking for those

00:19:07.541 --> 00:19:11.361
listeners who obviously you couldn't hear
our conversation before we hit record.

00:19:11.681 --> 00:19:15.241
But, you know, Mary was saying, well, you
know, I'm not really, you know, am I that

00:19:15.241 --> 00:19:17.061
qualified to talk about equine assisted?

00:19:17.061 --> 00:19:19.761
And I was like, yeah, I think you
probably are, you know, and when you,

00:19:19.781 --> 00:19:23.241
as soon as anybody begins to look up.

00:19:24.031 --> 00:19:28.241
I think particularly in the horse world,
if you kind of had to battle your way into

00:19:28.241 --> 00:19:30.461
it a little bit like you did, I did too.

00:19:30.971 --> 00:19:35.441
There's usually a reason and the, it,
it's to do with the pursuit of a certain

00:19:35.441 --> 00:19:37.031
kind of happiness and joy and freedom.

00:19:37.471 --> 00:19:41.181
Which means that one's current
situation perhaps isn't that.

00:19:41.331 --> 00:19:44.001
And so I think a lot of
people can relate to this.

00:19:44.001 --> 00:19:47.331
And then there you are finding yourself
doing this youth work in Bristol.

00:19:47.701 --> 00:19:51.461
Synchronicities aren't always.

00:19:51.941 --> 00:19:52.511
Conscious.

00:19:52.591 --> 00:19:53.981
One doesn't always recognize them.

00:19:54.691 --> 00:20:00.241
But I would say that your work
has made life a lot better for a

00:20:00.241 --> 00:20:04.111
lot of anxious, self questioning
riders who are feeling lost.

00:20:04.601 --> 00:20:07.821
And I don't think you would have had
that empathy if you hadn't gone through.

00:20:08.331 --> 00:20:08.611
Mary Wanless: Yes.

00:20:09.156 --> 00:20:10.296
Something like you just described.

00:20:10.536 --> 00:20:12.596
Rupert Isaacson: You would have
had no reason to do it, right?

00:20:13.376 --> 00:20:16.286
Mary Wanless: You know, and
it's interesting the kids that

00:20:16.286 --> 00:20:17.856
are born horse mad, isn't it?

00:20:17.896 --> 00:20:18.716
I was one of them.

00:20:18.726 --> 00:20:20.086
My family were appalled.

00:20:20.636 --> 00:20:22.426
It was outside of their experience.

00:20:22.426 --> 00:20:28.066
My father had a cousin, actually,
who was very horsey and lived her

00:20:28.066 --> 00:20:31.836
life being a cook or a housekeeper
for some of the horsey known names,

00:20:31.836 --> 00:20:34.396
actually, of that generation before me.

00:20:36.016 --> 00:20:39.946
The family joke was you'll turn out like
Auntie Minor if you get around horses.

00:20:39.946 --> 00:20:43.496
She was probably saner than the rest
of the family, but there you go.

00:20:43.806 --> 00:20:47.796
But, you know, I just picked horses
out of picture books as a kid.

00:20:47.796 --> 00:20:52.956
I just, we, we, we had a budgerigar, but
weren't really allowed animals otherwise.

00:20:53.256 --> 00:20:53.716
I had a guinea pig.

00:20:53.716 --> 00:20:53.976
You were

00:20:54.016 --> 00:20:55.176
Rupert Isaacson: in North London, right?

00:20:55.606 --> 00:20:57.686
Mary Wanless: No, I, I
grew up in West London.

00:20:57.696 --> 00:21:01.256
I grew up out near Uxbridge, the end of
the Piccadilly and the Metropolitan line.

00:21:01.256 --> 00:21:01.469
Okay,

00:21:01.469 --> 00:21:03.175
Rupert Isaacson: well that's, back
then that was effectively countryside.

00:21:03.175 --> 00:21:03.601
I mean,

00:21:03.601 --> 00:21:05.093
Mary Wanless: it's It
was right on the edge.

00:21:05.093 --> 00:21:07.946
You know, we had bikes,
we could go out in woods.

00:21:07.986 --> 00:21:09.356
I mean, we had lots of breeding.

00:21:09.356 --> 00:21:09.573
But

00:21:09.573 --> 00:21:10.656
Rupert Isaacson: there
would have been horses

00:21:10.656 --> 00:21:11.306
Mary Wanless: in fields around.

00:21:11.306 --> 00:21:11.523
Sorry?

00:21:11.523 --> 00:21:13.256
Rupert Isaacson: There would
have been horses in fields around

00:21:13.836 --> 00:21:13.856
Mary Wanless: you.

00:21:13.856 --> 00:21:17.786
There were horses in fields around
that I didn't get very near, but there

00:21:17.786 --> 00:21:19.746
were horses in fields around, yes.

00:21:21.051 --> 00:21:22.881
And I just love them.

00:21:22.881 --> 00:21:24.441
And I mean, still do.

00:21:24.441 --> 00:21:29.801
And the level of beauty and power
and grace and willingness to let us

00:21:29.901 --> 00:21:31.461
play with them and be around them.

00:21:31.531 --> 00:21:33.681
It still moves me to tears.

00:21:33.681 --> 00:21:33.851
I mean, that's

00:21:33.991 --> 00:21:34.691
Rupert Isaacson: miraculous.

00:21:34.851 --> 00:21:35.221
I agree.

00:21:35.427 --> 00:21:37.106
Mary Wanless: It's, it's phenomenal.

00:21:37.486 --> 00:21:38.216
Had there been horsey

00:21:38.936 --> 00:21:41.036
Rupert Isaacson: people back in the
day, even people, you know, previous

00:21:41.036 --> 00:21:44.476
generations, people who'd been with
working horses perhaps, or drovers, or

00:21:44.476 --> 00:21:49.366
because back then, you know, even when
I was a kid, in, in London, I grew up in

00:21:49.366 --> 00:21:51.656
Islington, which is central north London.

00:21:51.836 --> 00:21:53.306
There were a lot of horses around.

00:21:53.356 --> 00:21:54.986
I mean, the Rag and Bone men were out.

00:21:55.351 --> 00:21:56.911
Always with their horse and carts.

00:21:57.781 --> 00:22:04.151
Handsome cab taxi drivers often kept
still horses in muses in inner London

00:22:04.371 --> 00:22:07.271
and you'd see them out in the early
mornings exercising their horses.

00:22:07.671 --> 00:22:10.591
A lot of riders on Hampstead
Heath it wasn't just Hyde Park.

00:22:10.781 --> 00:22:14.821
You know, it's dwindled now
but there was it was around.

00:22:16.421 --> 00:22:16.491
There were

00:22:16.501 --> 00:22:20.251
Mary Wanless: ragged bow men that came
past our school and we'd always try

00:22:20.251 --> 00:22:23.471
and look out the windows which were so
high you couldn't see out of them and a

00:22:23.471 --> 00:22:27.551
friend and I had a diary of what horse
came past at what time on what day.

00:22:28.321 --> 00:22:30.241
Rupert Isaacson: That clip clop
sound, the sound of freedom.

00:22:30.701 --> 00:22:30.971
Yes.

00:22:32.656 --> 00:22:33.606
Still to this day.

00:22:35.186 --> 00:22:39.526
Okay, but as far as you know, you
didn't have someone in the ancestry who

00:22:40.896 --> 00:22:43.776
Mary Wanless: As far as I
know, just my father's cousin

00:22:44.286 --> 00:22:45.636
was the only horsey person.

00:22:46.486 --> 00:22:47.416
I really don't know.

00:22:47.456 --> 00:22:49.556
I don't think it would have
happened in my mother's family.

00:22:49.556 --> 00:22:53.286
If it had happened, it would have been
my father's family, but I don't think so.

00:22:53.296 --> 00:22:53.596
And I

00:22:53.596 --> 00:22:56.216
Rupert Isaacson: presume you must
have begged for riding lessons.

00:22:56.266 --> 00:22:56.826
Mary Wanless: I begged.

00:22:57.481 --> 00:22:58.571
Believe me, I begged.

00:23:00.131 --> 00:23:00.731
Rupert Isaacson: Deaf ears.

00:23:01.361 --> 00:23:02.031
Mary Wanless: Deaf ears.

00:23:03.281 --> 00:23:05.941
And it kind of, I was fortunate.

00:23:05.991 --> 00:23:07.711
A friend moved.

00:23:08.101 --> 00:23:14.561
She and I used to play horses on two
low brick walls that were the side

00:23:14.561 --> 00:23:16.331
of her porch outside her front door.

00:23:16.331 --> 00:23:19.391
And we made saddles and we made
bridles and we rode these things.

00:23:20.691 --> 00:23:25.561
She then moved away to the country and
started riding and invited me to come

00:23:25.561 --> 00:23:27.181
and stay and did I want to go riding?

00:23:27.181 --> 00:23:28.101
And you bet I did.

00:23:28.836 --> 00:23:31.666
So my parents capitulated
on that one and went, Oh my

00:23:31.666 --> 00:23:33.066
goodness, you better have a hat.

00:23:33.596 --> 00:23:37.766
And by the time I got the hat,
I'd kind of done the, the deal.

00:23:38.556 --> 00:23:40.966
And the story always
was, we can't afford it.

00:23:41.036 --> 00:23:44.016
And then I had a cousin who was
younger than me, who started having

00:23:44.016 --> 00:23:47.066
lessons and clearly her family
had less money than my family.

00:23:48.206 --> 00:23:50.796
So that argument wasn't
very sustainable any longer.

00:23:52.036 --> 00:23:53.946
So I got to have writing

00:23:53.946 --> 00:23:55.256
Rupert Isaacson: lessons.

00:23:55.806 --> 00:24:00.276
Because as you know, now being a
career in horses, like with me, you

00:24:00.276 --> 00:24:05.876
know, that if a kid shows up, who's
keen, most horsey people will go out

00:24:05.876 --> 00:24:10.846
of their way to initiate them into
the cult, you know, it's, we horsey

00:24:10.846 --> 00:24:12.586
people are a bit evangelical that way.

00:24:12.766 --> 00:24:14.886
So money's almost never a barrier.

00:24:15.366 --> 00:24:19.996
And, but what I do see so often, and I
can feel it in the heart of the little

00:24:19.996 --> 00:24:26.316
girl that you were Is that crushing
of the dream and giving somebody the

00:24:27.346 --> 00:24:30.386
message, Well, your dreams aren't

00:24:32.396 --> 00:24:36.786
worthy and are also not attainable.

00:24:37.006 --> 00:24:39.206
And then you either go like you did,
where you say, Well, they jolly well

00:24:39.236 --> 00:24:43.836
are, I'm jolly well I am going to,
Somehow, someway, and it feeds the fire.

00:24:43.906 --> 00:24:51.286
Or, quite often people Don't they give
up and I often think that's incredibly

00:24:51.296 --> 00:24:56.586
sad one of the lines of work We do a
lot with the more dressage side of what

00:24:56.586 --> 00:25:00.336
we do outside of the equine assisted
side is a lot of people who come To

00:25:00.336 --> 00:25:05.886
riding late because they had had that
dream as kids and had to wait 40 years

00:25:05.886 --> 00:25:14.366
to make some money to finally Do it
and that hurt little person is always

00:25:14.366 --> 00:25:19.941
in there and I do think that that's
one of the real Benefits of your work

00:25:19.991 --> 00:25:26.841
because I think by clarifying and making
accessible this complex business of

00:25:27.111 --> 00:25:30.041
keeping a horse between you and the
ground in some sort of sense of harmony

00:25:30.641 --> 00:25:33.511
which is usually so steeped in esoteric.

00:25:34.051 --> 00:25:39.341
badly communicated also punitive
approaches you, you really do help.

00:25:39.621 --> 00:25:44.041
I think people perhaps unwittingly,
I think you do help people.

00:25:44.051 --> 00:25:45.871
A lot of people heal those old wounds.

00:25:46.411 --> 00:25:49.461
Can you tell us now, talk to
us about ride with your mind.

00:25:49.501 --> 00:25:53.531
Talk to us about, I want you to jump
forward to kind of your mid career.

00:25:55.366 --> 00:26:00.306
Then I want you to dial back again and
talk about the evolution into that.

00:26:02.166 --> 00:26:04.766
Mary Wanless: So in my mid career
I'd written a couple of books.

00:26:05.806 --> 00:26:07.006
I was writing more books.

00:26:08.156 --> 00:26:11.486
I was teaching courses here and there.

00:26:12.216 --> 00:26:16.156
I'd got myself to Wiltshire by
that time and was able to use a big

00:26:16.176 --> 00:26:18.766
competition centre there for my courses.

00:26:19.991 --> 00:26:23.801
And after that got my own place,
but there was Winchwood before that.

00:26:24.551 --> 00:26:30.191
And really it was born of,
people need to know this.

00:26:30.221 --> 00:26:31.261
This needs to be known.

00:26:31.861 --> 00:26:36.571
It needs to be known because it
makes explicit what is otherwise

00:26:36.791 --> 00:26:38.981
implicit, can't be communicated.

00:26:39.031 --> 00:26:41.411
If a talented writer can't
put words on what they do,

00:26:41.801 --> 00:26:42.716
Rupert Isaacson: they cannot.

00:26:43.136 --> 00:26:44.366
Mary Wanless: send that knowledge forward.

00:26:44.566 --> 00:26:44.716
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:26:44.716 --> 00:26:45.586
They're not good teachers.

00:26:45.586 --> 00:26:46.396
Usually they're

00:26:46.396 --> 00:26:50.276
Mary Wanless: not good teachers and our
traditional vocabulary is not helpful.

00:26:51.456 --> 00:26:56.456
And I just kept learning on the
job, you know, by riding and trying

00:26:56.456 --> 00:27:01.216
to figure out my own body and what
was going on and by teaching and by

00:27:01.216 --> 00:27:02.696
really asking people's questions.

00:27:02.716 --> 00:27:04.726
You know, what did I say
that helped you the most?

00:27:05.076 --> 00:27:08.236
How would you, if you had to teach this
to somebody, what would you tell them?

00:27:08.966 --> 00:27:10.616
What was the difference
that made the difference?

00:27:12.496 --> 00:27:16.966
And by that time I'd done a
psychotherapy training, I'd got

00:27:16.966 --> 00:27:19.876
involved with neuro linguistic
programming, I had a training in that.

00:27:20.226 --> 00:27:26.606
So I had a pretty good idea of how to
communicate in ways that were viable.

00:27:27.826 --> 00:27:30.616
And I just kept putting one
foot in front of the other.

00:27:31.126 --> 00:27:34.054
Loving teaching, loving
writing, loving writing.

00:27:34.054 --> 00:27:39.116
Writing less so, writing's always
been the hardest of them in many ways.

00:27:39.576 --> 00:27:43.476
And just walking a path of
following the next step.

00:27:43.641 --> 00:27:45.511
thing that really drew my attention.

00:27:45.631 --> 00:27:50.971
You know, in the reading I was doing and
what I was learning outside of horses that

00:27:51.051 --> 00:27:56.921
then came back in to inform my coaching
and my understanding of people and horses.

00:27:58.441 --> 00:27:59.671
Rupert Isaacson: What were the
biggest thing you mentioned

00:27:59.671 --> 00:28:02.551
neuro linguistic programming, you
mentioned psychotherapy there.

00:28:03.571 --> 00:28:05.861
Talk us through the things that
you learned outside of horses.

00:28:05.871 --> 00:28:09.051
And then I'm going to go back through your
classical education with horses, which is.

00:28:10.316 --> 00:28:13.926
quite impressive and I think will
be useful for people in terms

00:28:13.926 --> 00:28:15.966
of types of mentor to look for.

00:28:17.006 --> 00:28:22.006
Let's go first to the things outside
of horses that informed you being able

00:28:22.006 --> 00:28:27.236
to communicate and teach well this
difficult esoteric thing called riding.

00:28:27.886 --> 00:28:30.896
Mary Wanless: I think neurolinguistic
programming was probably

00:28:31.126 --> 00:28:33.456
the most important of them.

00:28:33.966 --> 00:28:35.016
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you learn it?

00:28:35.926 --> 00:28:39.956
Mary Wanless: Because I've been,
I've been involved in psychotherapy

00:28:39.966 --> 00:28:41.736
and decided to train as a therapist.

00:28:41.736 --> 00:28:44.196
I didn't really think
I would be a therapist.

00:28:44.306 --> 00:28:45.446
I'm not good at sitting still.

00:28:46.951 --> 00:28:53.061
But I came intrigued by that
field and I found myself.

00:28:53.191 --> 00:28:53.731
Why?

00:28:53.971 --> 00:28:55.151
Rupert Isaacson: Because
of your early grief?

00:28:55.151 --> 00:28:55.691
Losing your parents?

00:28:55.691 --> 00:28:55.821
Yes,

00:28:55.871 --> 00:29:00.001
Mary Wanless: I mean, I needed, I, when I
quit riding in despair, I went to London.

00:29:00.076 --> 00:29:03.716
And I knew I needed to
get involved in therapy.

00:29:03.736 --> 00:29:05.976
So my brother had done that.

00:29:05.986 --> 00:29:07.486
My best friend had done that.

00:29:07.916 --> 00:29:09.036
Rupert Isaacson: You needed it yourself.

00:29:09.496 --> 00:29:09.896
Sorry?

00:29:10.006 --> 00:29:11.016
You needed it yourself.

00:29:11.446 --> 00:29:13.746
Mary Wanless: I needed something
to turn my life around.

00:29:13.746 --> 00:29:13.886
Yeah.

00:29:13.886 --> 00:29:14.166
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:29:14.166 --> 00:29:16.156
Mary Wanless: I was just too
miserable too much at the time.

00:29:17.156 --> 00:29:19.176
And got involved with this training.

00:29:19.866 --> 00:29:23.086
And, and what would happen would
be there'd be a group of us.

00:29:23.666 --> 00:29:28.096
Sitting around this room and our therapist
would do a demonstration with somebody

00:29:28.096 --> 00:29:33.026
on something and then say pair up go
do it And everybody else will walk

00:29:33.026 --> 00:29:36.006
off thinking looking like they thought
they knew how to do it And I was there

00:29:36.076 --> 00:29:37.956
going I've no clue how she did that.

00:29:38.006 --> 00:29:44.106
I haven't got the first clue am I the
only stupid one here and anyway, I kept

00:29:44.106 --> 00:29:50.561
doing the training but It was really
through that kind of, I don't get this.

00:29:50.561 --> 00:29:51.711
Am I in the stupid one?

00:29:52.111 --> 00:29:57.401
And I literally picked up a book,
one of the NLP books in changes,

00:29:57.401 --> 00:29:59.161
book shopping Camden town one day.

00:30:00.006 --> 00:30:05.046
opened it to a page and it said, if you
want to learn how to do something, go

00:30:05.046 --> 00:30:06.636
to somebody who struggled to learn it.

00:30:06.776 --> 00:30:09.306
Don't go to somebody
who's the renowned expert.

00:30:09.856 --> 00:30:13.996
And I went, this book is for
me, picked it up, read it,

00:30:16.006 --> 00:30:20.876
got myself to an NLP seminar and
completed the psychotherapy program.

00:30:21.536 --> 00:30:24.281
But then started going to NLP.

00:30:26.181 --> 00:30:28.951
Rupert Isaacson: For those listeners
who don't know what NLP is, because

00:30:28.951 --> 00:30:31.591
it used to be that everyone knew
what it is, and it's, it's not

00:30:31.651 --> 00:30:33.071
quite as well known anymore.

00:30:33.111 --> 00:30:35.501
Can you give us the nuts and bolts,
one, two, three, what is NLP?

00:30:35.501 --> 00:30:38.321
Mary Wanless: So it's Richard
Bandler and John Grinder, when they

00:30:38.331 --> 00:30:44.611
started off this, Richard Bandler was
trying to work out what made a few

00:30:44.621 --> 00:30:46.341
renowned therapists so successful.

00:30:47.521 --> 00:30:51.921
And he drew out patterns in how
they used language, how they talked.

00:30:53.216 --> 00:30:56.176
how they heard other people.

00:30:57.016 --> 00:30:57.396
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:30:57.606 --> 00:30:57.916
Mary Wanless: And

00:31:00.766 --> 00:31:04.976
came into understanding and being able
to teach some of the nuts and bolts of

00:31:04.976 --> 00:31:09.366
that kind of process of thinking, how
we think, what thinking is made up of.

00:31:10.876 --> 00:31:16.986
How to play with that kind of
thing to change how you feel.

00:31:18.796 --> 00:31:20.386
Rupert Isaacson: Change the
inner language in your head.

00:31:20.986 --> 00:31:23.366
Mary Wanless: Change the inner
language in your head, yes.

00:31:23.846 --> 00:31:26.036
Also change your body to a degree.

00:31:26.366 --> 00:31:31.296
Now, what I love about the times
we're in now is that embodiment is

00:31:31.296 --> 00:31:37.671
really coming more into mainstream,
maybe not mainstream, but it's less.

00:31:37.671 --> 00:31:38.344
I'd say

00:31:38.344 --> 00:31:39.206
Rupert Isaacson: it is, yeah.

00:31:39.206 --> 00:31:40.216
It's on its way there.

00:31:40.286 --> 00:31:40.686
Yeah.

00:31:40.686 --> 00:31:40.886
Mary Wanless: Yeah.

00:31:40.886 --> 00:31:41.086
Yeah.

00:31:41.086 --> 00:31:43.376
Embodiment is a term
that people have heard.

00:31:45.006 --> 00:31:48.956
The, the whole thing I would
say with my riding life has been

00:31:48.956 --> 00:31:50.866
about becoming more embodied.

00:31:51.486 --> 00:31:55.786
How through horses and what I do, I
have become so much more embodied.

00:31:56.066 --> 00:31:58.716
Rupert Isaacson: And let's assume
we have a listener now going, what's

00:31:58.716 --> 00:31:59.906
embodied mean when it's at home?

00:31:59.906 --> 00:32:00.146
Yes.

00:32:00.156 --> 00:32:01.796
Mary Wanless: So what it means is, what is

00:32:02.086 --> 00:32:02.306
Rupert Isaacson: that?

00:32:02.776 --> 00:32:06.966
Mary Wanless: Able to really sense
your body to, if you feel something

00:32:06.966 --> 00:32:11.486
emotionally to maybe able to track it
back to, Oh, it's a heaviness in my heart.

00:32:12.291 --> 00:32:15.441
Oh, it's a tightness in my gut.

00:32:16.721 --> 00:32:17.101
Yeah.

00:32:17.331 --> 00:32:24.251
To realize that emotions come from
physical and biochemical states.

00:32:24.751 --> 00:32:27.171
Candice Peart was a really
important writer in this.

00:32:27.686 --> 00:32:32.476
field molecules of emotion by Candice
Pert was a really big book in this.

00:32:32.646 --> 00:32:33.296
Rupert Isaacson: Candice who?

00:32:33.846 --> 00:32:35.216
Mary Wanless: Pert P E R T.

00:32:35.526 --> 00:32:38.056
Rupert Isaacson: Candice
Pert molecules of emotion.

00:32:38.406 --> 00:32:38.756
It was a

00:32:38.766 --> 00:32:40.816
Mary Wanless: book of
the possibly the 80s.

00:32:42.926 --> 00:32:44.716
And Candice died rather young.

00:32:44.826 --> 00:32:45.806
I mean, she was pretty crazy.

00:32:45.806 --> 00:32:46.406
I actually met her.

00:32:46.436 --> 00:32:48.296
She was pretty crazy and delightful.

00:32:48.886 --> 00:32:50.276
But she did the science.

00:32:50.456 --> 00:32:55.576
behind the neurochemicals and the lock and
key mechanism in cells, that when those

00:32:55.576 --> 00:33:01.586
neurochemicals get in, that there is that
scientific background to what you would

00:33:01.586 --> 00:33:03.546
then feel subjectively as an emotion.

00:33:04.026 --> 00:33:04.366
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:33:04.996 --> 00:33:10.671
Mary Wanless: So NLP doesn't work as
much with embodiment as I think people

00:33:10.671 --> 00:33:15.721
deserve, and I think it adds something
extra to the NLP, tinkering around with

00:33:15.721 --> 00:33:20.411
language and the images inside your
head, the things you say to yourself.

00:33:21.351 --> 00:33:23.791
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, most of
us talk to ourselves appallingly.

00:33:23.851 --> 00:33:26.941
I mean, we, we, we don't talk to
ourselves like we talk to a friend.

00:33:27.231 --> 00:33:29.151
Mary Wanless: No, we talk to
ourselves like our parents

00:33:29.301 --> 00:33:30.481
talked to us when we were three.

00:33:30.691 --> 00:33:31.311
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we

00:33:31.641 --> 00:33:34.121
Mary Wanless: Stop that, don't do that,
you're stupid, what's wrong with you?

00:33:35.486 --> 00:33:41.806
You know, it's sad but true, and I hope
is less in more recent generations.

00:33:41.806 --> 00:33:45.306
I don't know that it is, but
it certainly was my growing up.

00:33:45.546 --> 00:33:45.966
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:46.146 --> 00:33:49.696
Mary Wanless: And I can remember being
on a horse one day after I'd given up

00:33:49.696 --> 00:33:55.106
riding, gone to London, started teaching
again, and riding a horse for somebody.

00:33:56.136 --> 00:34:00.186
And in my internal dialogue, I heard
myself say, I'm going to get this

00:34:00.186 --> 00:34:01.786
horse going well if it kills me.

00:34:02.811 --> 00:34:04.331
And then I went, what?

00:34:05.191 --> 00:34:06.831
If it kills me, is it that important?

00:34:08.391 --> 00:34:13.481
You know, and, and there were real turning
points in writing when I started to really

00:34:13.481 --> 00:34:17.271
realise that there was this yatter on in
the background that really wasn't helpful.

00:34:18.001 --> 00:34:20.301
And learn how to switch that off.

00:34:21.461 --> 00:34:24.071
And now I have very little internal
dialogue, actually, whether

00:34:24.071 --> 00:34:25.271
I'm writing or doing anything.

00:34:25.271 --> 00:34:27.101
I don't talk to myself much at all.

00:34:27.301 --> 00:34:27.641
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:34:28.051 --> 00:34:31.771
You said very glibly there, so I'm
just going to make you back up.

00:34:31.811 --> 00:34:35.211
You said, until I learned how
to switch it off, now that is

00:34:35.211 --> 00:34:37.141
a big thing to learn how to do.

00:34:37.291 --> 00:34:37.361
I

00:34:37.361 --> 00:34:38.741
Mary Wanless: can teach
people how to switch it off.

00:34:38.986 --> 00:34:40.526
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so talk to us about that.

00:34:40.886 --> 00:34:41.256
Mary Wanless: Okay.

00:34:41.286 --> 00:34:41.746
How do you

00:34:41.996 --> 00:34:44.686
Rupert Isaacson: switch off the
negative little voice in your head

00:34:44.686 --> 00:34:45.886
that's telling you shit all the time?

00:34:46.391 --> 00:34:48.551
Mary Wanless: Alright, so
there's lots of ways to do that.

00:34:49.261 --> 00:34:54.811
One is, if you hear yourself, so you have
to kind of tune into it and listen to it.

00:34:55.671 --> 00:35:00.841
If you hear yourself saying something
not helpful, to say to yourself,

00:35:01.021 --> 00:35:05.651
next, and have the next thought
be something that is helpful.

00:35:06.161 --> 00:35:09.631
That works really well in writing,
maybe it's more a writing strategy

00:35:09.661 --> 00:35:12.711
than an everyday life strategy, but
you go, God, I ought to be able to

00:35:12.711 --> 00:35:15.441
do this by now, what's wrong with
me, this is going so badly wrong.

00:35:15.831 --> 00:35:22.141
Next, and the next thought could be
something like breathe, you know, and

00:35:22.141 --> 00:35:26.421
then I have a whole list of things that
I might say to people that are little

00:35:26.431 --> 00:35:28.961
bite size chunks of what makes it work.

00:35:30.021 --> 00:35:31.491
So that would be one way.

00:35:32.281 --> 00:35:38.411
Another way would be have the
voice speak to you with an accent.

00:35:40.121 --> 00:35:45.721
Or sing to you in a way that makes
it less believable and serious.

00:35:46.271 --> 00:35:49.231
So if it started to sing in opera, we
think you're a really stupid woman,

00:35:49.231 --> 00:35:50.681
what on earth is wrong with you?

00:35:50.691 --> 00:35:52.501
How come after all these years?

00:35:53.781 --> 00:35:54.981
Or it could be Mickey Mouse.

00:35:56.881 --> 00:35:58.311
Rupert Isaacson: It's
so funny you say that.

00:35:58.561 --> 00:36:02.831
When I had to teach my son
Rowan how to drive, he was 16.

00:36:03.511 --> 00:36:06.891
And you've got to understand
this was, he had been non verbal,

00:36:06.921 --> 00:36:08.221
you know, severely autistic.

00:36:08.391 --> 00:36:11.291
Okay, now doing amazingly
well, but still, you know.

00:36:13.511 --> 00:36:18.321
I'm going to teach you how to
drive, you know, and I'm terrified.

00:36:18.321 --> 00:36:19.041
He's terrified.

00:36:19.931 --> 00:36:26.411
And I said to him, what, what can
I do to make this non stressful?

00:36:28.461 --> 00:36:32.741
He said, do it in a silly accent.

00:36:33.701 --> 00:36:34.601
This came from him,

00:36:35.141 --> 00:36:35.631
Mary Wanless: right?

00:36:35.751 --> 00:36:41.321
Rupert Isaacson: And so we cooked up
a variety of, I was kind of a redneck

00:36:41.361 --> 00:36:45.191
teacher and I'd be like, well, we all
going to come down there Junction Zayas

00:36:45.211 --> 00:36:50.335
and I want you to put yo's, yo's as a
Zayas on, on the road there and look

00:36:50.335 --> 00:36:54.281
to the right Zayas and then the left
Zayas and that's real good and then I

00:36:54.281 --> 00:36:58.211
would switch to Henry VIII my lord and
I was there in my liege and now we are

00:36:58.211 --> 00:37:01.731
coming to indeed the traffic light and
as you know, it's going to be a little

00:37:01.761 --> 00:37:03.791
push in the clutch and and it was good.

00:37:04.001 --> 00:37:05.231
It totally worked.

00:37:05.231 --> 00:37:07.031
It like took the, it came from him.

00:37:07.861 --> 00:37:10.081
I mean, and we'd always played
around with this, obviously.

00:37:10.571 --> 00:37:11.361
But it was genius.

00:37:11.361 --> 00:37:11.611
So it's, yeah.

00:37:12.866 --> 00:37:17.756
It's so interesting that you say that one
and do it in a silly accent, because it

00:37:17.756 --> 00:37:19.152
does, it just takes all the strings out.

00:37:19.152 --> 00:37:19.747
It just, it takes

00:37:19.747 --> 00:37:22.656
Mary Wanless: the edge off, you know,
because so many people think that voice

00:37:22.656 --> 00:37:27.746
in their head is God, you know, is,
knows everything, and it really isn't.

00:37:27.747 --> 00:37:28.563
Rupert Isaacson: And

00:37:28.563 --> 00:37:34.016
Mary Wanless: to demote it with a, by
singing it or with a silly accent is a

00:37:34.026 --> 00:37:34.946
really great Now would you say that's

00:37:34.986 --> 00:37:36.606
Rupert Isaacson: neuro linguistic,
would you say that's NLP?

00:37:36.986 --> 00:37:38.316
Mary Wanless: That's, that's an NLP.

00:37:38.376 --> 00:37:40.136
Did I get that originally from NLP?

00:37:40.436 --> 00:37:41.016
Possibly.

00:37:41.776 --> 00:37:42.116
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:37:42.326 --> 00:37:43.876
Mary Wanless: Next didn't come from NLP.

00:37:43.886 --> 00:37:45.386
That might have come from NLP.

00:37:45.676 --> 00:37:50.206
Another one, I think this one did come
from NLP, is if you just maybe close your

00:37:50.206 --> 00:37:55.836
eyes and listen to something that voice
might say, and notice where, whereabouts

00:37:55.866 --> 00:37:57.776
inside your head does it come from?

00:37:57.777 --> 00:37:58.506
Oh,

00:37:59.886 --> 00:38:00.286
Rupert Isaacson: that's good.

00:38:01.126 --> 00:38:02.476
Like, geographically, where in the hell?

00:38:02.476 --> 00:38:04.156
Mary Wanless: Geographically, whereabouts.

00:38:04.446 --> 00:38:07.846
So for me, if I did that, it would
be fairly far back on the left.

00:38:07.916 --> 00:38:08.726
Rupert Isaacson: Mmm,

00:38:10.876 --> 00:38:12.806
back in the limbic system there, yeah.

00:38:13.096 --> 00:38:13.526
Okay,

00:38:13.576 --> 00:38:16.376
Mary Wanless: and then if you
move that voice to the midline

00:38:18.796 --> 00:38:19.206
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

00:38:20.076 --> 00:38:21.646
Mary Wanless: It's almost
certainly going to change.

00:38:23.316 --> 00:38:24.246
Rupert Isaacson: Just trying it now.

00:38:28.506 --> 00:38:29.096
It does.

00:38:29.097 --> 00:38:30.376
It does, it changes.

00:38:30.426 --> 00:38:32.836
I, I, I, I said to
myself, you silly bastard.

00:38:33.771 --> 00:38:37.071
In my back left, and I
moved it to the midline,

00:38:39.421 --> 00:38:40.561
and the word bastard went away.

00:38:40.651 --> 00:38:41.441
That's interesting.

00:38:43.461 --> 00:38:45.441
Silly spade, which is good, I like silly.

00:38:45.741 --> 00:38:47.531
Mary Wanless: Yeah, it changes it
when you move it to the midline.

00:38:48.441 --> 00:38:49.771
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting,
now why the midline?

00:38:50.941 --> 00:38:54.991
Mary Wanless: Well it's where both brain
hemispheres maximally overlap, you know?

00:38:54.991 --> 00:38:56.501
It's where we've got the porous colosum.

00:38:56.861 --> 00:38:59.821
I can't tell you anything
more neurologically than that.

00:39:00.356 --> 00:39:00.786
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:39:00.816 --> 00:39:00.896
But

00:39:00.906 --> 00:39:03.476
Mary Wanless: there is, it seems
to work for everybody that the

00:39:03.606 --> 00:39:05.766
voice either goes away or changes

00:39:06.226 --> 00:39:06.266
Rupert Isaacson: and

00:39:06.926 --> 00:39:08.356
Mary Wanless: you go to the midline.

00:39:10.436 --> 00:39:13.066
And then I also have an exercise
that involves blowing up

00:39:13.066 --> 00:39:14.926
balloons in a rather unusual way.

00:39:15.066 --> 00:39:16.326
It's on YouTube.

00:39:16.876 --> 00:39:22.606
And if you blow up, if you blow up
balloons in this way, you end up virtually

00:39:22.606 --> 00:39:24.516
always with total quiet inside your head.

00:39:25.746 --> 00:39:26.636
Rupert Isaacson: Can you be more specific?

00:39:26.696 --> 00:39:27.736
Take us through this balloon thing.

00:39:28.146 --> 00:39:30.386
Mary Wanless: When you blow up a
balloon normally, you put it in your

00:39:30.406 --> 00:39:34.176
mouth to breathe into it, and you
take it out of your mouth, take the

00:39:34.176 --> 00:39:36.976
next in breath, put it back in your
mouth and breathe into the balloon.

00:39:37.306 --> 00:39:37.656
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.

00:39:37.966 --> 00:39:38.236
Mary Wanless: Okay?

00:39:38.726 --> 00:39:43.016
In the version that we do, you
have to keep the balloon in your

00:39:43.016 --> 00:39:46.276
mouth the whole time, and you're
not allowed to pinch it off.

00:39:46.956 --> 00:39:47.446
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.

00:39:47.586 --> 00:39:47.876
Mary Wanless: Okay?

00:39:47.896 --> 00:39:49.456
And you're not allowed to
stick your tongue in the hole.

00:39:50.446 --> 00:39:50.756
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:39:51.226 --> 00:39:53.936
Mary Wanless: So you have to breathe
in through your nose, and that

00:39:53.936 --> 00:39:57.246
involves, you have to put your tongue,
the tip of your tongue up against

00:39:57.246 --> 00:39:58.916
the roof of your mouth to block off.

00:39:59.311 --> 00:40:00.671
the back of your mouth and your throat,

00:40:03.701 --> 00:40:04.991
and then you blow into the balloon.

00:40:06.291 --> 00:40:10.011
So as you do that, the pressure
in the balloon is getting bigger

00:40:10.011 --> 00:40:11.161
and bigger with each in breath.

00:40:11.201 --> 00:40:12.631
You need pretty big balloons.

00:40:13.751 --> 00:40:14.221
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:40:14.291 --> 00:40:16.551
Mary Wanless: And you have
to make sure the balloon does

00:40:16.571 --> 00:40:19.416
not empty itself into you.

00:40:20.976 --> 00:40:25.606
That means you have to have the same
pressure in your insides as the balloon.

00:40:27.956 --> 00:40:33.516
So when you breathe into the balloon,
your internal pressure mustn't get less.

00:40:34.266 --> 00:40:36.766
You've got to hold your ribs expanded.

00:40:41.341 --> 00:40:43.851
Rupert Isaacson: You're doing
this as an imaginary exercise.

00:40:44.771 --> 00:40:45.881
Mary Wanless: This is a real exercise.

00:40:45.881 --> 00:40:46.601
We do it with real balloons.

00:40:46.781 --> 00:40:47.641
Rupert Isaacson: You do
it with an actual balloon.

00:40:47.711 --> 00:40:48.596
I was going to say because

00:40:48.596 --> 00:40:49.121
Mary Wanless: it's

00:40:49.121 --> 00:40:50.081
Rupert Isaacson: complex without one.

00:40:51.061 --> 00:40:52.741
Okay, neurologically, what does this do?

00:40:53.661 --> 00:40:56.891
Mary Wanless: That's a very good question,
and I don't really know the answer to

00:40:56.891 --> 00:41:04.121
it, but that level of internal pressure
gets people quiet inside their head.

00:41:04.701 --> 00:41:06.871
So in other words, blowing
up balloons like that is a

00:41:06.871 --> 00:41:08.431
shortcut to learning to meditate.

00:41:09.071 --> 00:41:11.881
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's
circular pranic breathing, effectively,

00:41:12.291 --> 00:41:14.821
without, but in a practical context.

00:41:14.881 --> 00:41:16.041
Mary Wanless: In a practical context.

00:41:16.101 --> 00:41:18.241
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that could,
now how did you end up with that one?

00:41:18.991 --> 00:41:22.931
Mary Wanless: It actually didn't
originate with me, it originates with

00:41:22.931 --> 00:41:25.561
a group called Postural Restoration.

00:41:26.421 --> 00:41:29.571
The originator of that is a
physical therapist, they're

00:41:29.571 --> 00:41:31.061
based, I think, in Wisconsin.

00:41:32.281 --> 00:41:38.181
And Postural Restoration, they
came up with Blowing Up Balloons.

00:41:38.926 --> 00:41:44.096
As a way of helping people increase the
pressure in their insides and breathe more

00:41:44.106 --> 00:41:45.676
and maybe into one side of their ribs.

00:41:46.166 --> 00:41:50.516
So there's a whole load there
that can really change the body.

00:41:50.966 --> 00:41:52.116
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you find them?

00:41:52.117 --> 00:41:54.936
I found

00:41:54.936 --> 00:41:59.656
Mary Wanless: them through somebody
who is a physical therapist, trained

00:41:59.656 --> 00:42:02.736
in their method, very experienced in
it, who came to my clinic with me.

00:42:03.236 --> 00:42:03.616
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:42:03.706 --> 00:42:04.316
Ah, right.

00:42:04.326 --> 00:42:05.716
Mary Wanless: Actually,
I found it before then.

00:42:06.166 --> 00:42:09.946
Somebody came on a clinic with
me who had somehow done it.

00:42:10.901 --> 00:42:12.971
and showed it to me there.

00:42:13.881 --> 00:42:15.261
And we were doing it for years.

00:42:15.261 --> 00:42:19.491
And then I met somebody who was really
active as a physical therapist and a

00:42:19.491 --> 00:42:21.431
practitioner of postural restoration.

00:42:21.991 --> 00:42:28.091
And for anyone who only in the US
probably can get themselves access

00:42:28.131 --> 00:42:32.491
to a physical therapist that does
this, it is a super way to work with

00:42:32.491 --> 00:42:34.651
your body to become more functional.

00:42:36.381 --> 00:42:38.251
Rupert Isaacson: So for dealing
with anxiety effectively.

00:42:38.851 --> 00:42:44.121
Mary Wanless: That's not their main
aim, but that could be a good byproduct.

00:42:44.881 --> 00:42:50.051
Their main aim is to get people
more symmetrical, breathing better,

00:42:50.771 --> 00:42:55.061
spine more functional, out of pain,
able to do what they want to do.

00:42:55.311 --> 00:42:55.701
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:42:56.081 --> 00:42:57.631
Postural, postural

00:42:57.961 --> 00:42:58.741
Mary Wanless: restoration,

00:42:58.781 --> 00:42:59.641
Rupert Isaacson: restoration.

00:42:59.971 --> 00:43:00.441
Thank you.

00:43:00.441 --> 00:43:03.061
I learned a lot doing these
podcasts as you can imagine.

00:43:03.341 --> 00:43:03.671
Mary Wanless: Yes.

00:43:03.731 --> 00:43:06.061
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

00:43:06.061 --> 00:43:10.491
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

00:43:10.561 --> 00:43:14.831
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:43:14.891 --> 00:43:20.471
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:43:21.066 --> 00:43:27.376
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:43:27.376 --> 00:43:30.046
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:43:30.046 --> 00:43:32.926
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:43:33.266 --> 00:43:36.536
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:43:37.031 --> 00:43:41.981
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:43:42.641 --> 00:43:44.081
It works incredibly well.

00:43:44.081 --> 00:43:45.801
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:43:46.511 --> 00:43:47.261
Check it out.

00:43:47.941 --> 00:43:52.091
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:43:52.101 --> 00:43:55.471
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:43:55.471 --> 00:43:57.221
applied in schools, in homes.

00:43:57.421 --> 00:44:02.411
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:44:02.411 --> 00:44:03.951
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:44:05.306 --> 00:44:06.586
when they're not with you.

00:44:07.096 --> 00:44:10.536
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:44:10.896 --> 00:44:13.516
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:44:13.516 --> 00:44:17.516
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:44:17.546 --> 00:44:21.836
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:44:22.276 --> 00:44:25.616
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:44:25.636 --> 00:44:29.876
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:44:30.076 --> 00:44:34.366
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:44:34.366 --> 00:44:37.666
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:44:37.666 --> 00:44:40.761
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:44:41.001 --> 00:44:45.501
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:44:45.831 --> 00:44:47.481
absolutely gives you this.

00:44:47.541 --> 00:44:51.251
What I love is that you
learn from your students.

00:44:51.691 --> 00:44:53.911
For me, this is a massive thing.

00:44:54.601 --> 00:44:58.571
I'm always learning as much, if not
more, from anyone I'm working with.

00:44:58.621 --> 00:45:02.081
And I think in our, particularly
with writing, so often the

00:45:02.081 --> 00:45:06.091
power dynamic is toxic.

00:45:06.191 --> 00:45:09.771
Similarly, honestly, in therapy,
it can be, you know, I'm God,

00:45:10.261 --> 00:45:11.941
I'm imparting wisdom to you.

00:45:13.251 --> 00:45:15.641
And it just isn't.

00:45:16.886 --> 00:45:17.406
Optimal?

00:45:17.716 --> 00:45:17.896
Yes.

00:45:17.936 --> 00:45:18.156
Ah.

00:45:18.386 --> 00:45:18.536
It

00:45:18.536 --> 00:45:23.246
Mary Wanless: is, it is vital to the
skills I have and what I know now, that

00:45:23.246 --> 00:45:28.056
they were developed in concert with
the people in writing arenas with me.

00:45:29.256 --> 00:45:33.306
You know, the questions, the questioning,
what did I say that helped the most?

00:45:33.366 --> 00:45:34.496
How would you explain this?

00:45:34.496 --> 00:45:35.946
What was the difference
that made the difference?

00:45:36.386 --> 00:45:36.676
So your

00:45:36.786 --> 00:45:38.106
Rupert Isaacson: students are
your mentors to some degree?

00:45:38.116 --> 00:45:38.176
My

00:45:38.356 --> 00:45:44.636
Mary Wanless: students are my mentors,
yes, and you know, the, the cutting

00:45:44.636 --> 00:45:47.166
out the feedback loop from the student.

00:45:47.166 --> 00:45:47.216
Yes.

00:45:47.506 --> 00:45:49.386
back to the teacher is lethal.

00:45:50.276 --> 00:45:52.086
And it is writing's tradition.

00:45:52.086 --> 00:45:54.676
You know, I stand in front
of you and you do what I say.

00:45:54.996 --> 00:45:56.116
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it
comes out of the military.

00:45:56.156 --> 00:45:56.566
So yes, it

00:45:56.566 --> 00:45:57.906
Mary Wanless: comes out of the military.

00:45:57.966 --> 00:46:02.466
And the most extreme modern day
example I heard was of somebody, a

00:46:02.466 --> 00:46:07.266
very well known coach in a different
country who used to coach sitting

00:46:07.266 --> 00:46:11.366
in the gallery with a headset that
allowed him to talk to the student, but

00:46:11.366 --> 00:46:12.826
didn't allow the student to talk back.

00:46:14.671 --> 00:46:15.021
Yeah,

00:46:15.511 --> 00:46:15.761
Rupert Isaacson: that's

00:46:15.761 --> 00:46:18.181
Mary Wanless: the
ultimate isn't it in I was

00:46:18.331 --> 00:46:21.611
Rupert Isaacson: attending a dressage
seminar not so long ago with a very

00:46:21.611 --> 00:46:29.201
very well known person and Hearing that
person say things in that mock jokey

00:46:29.201 --> 00:46:32.711
way that isn't jokey It's actually
shaming but you're now not allowed to

00:46:33.181 --> 00:46:36.891
come back and say hey, dude, that it's
not nice because oh, no It's a joke.

00:46:37.281 --> 00:46:42.551
That was disgusting that that
transition was disgusting like wow You

00:46:42.551 --> 00:46:46.641
know, how much you paying to be told
that, you know, how useful is that?

00:46:46.642 --> 00:46:47.541
As you say,

00:46:47.741 --> 00:46:50.321
Mary Wanless: useful information
being given about how to do it better.

00:46:50.811 --> 00:46:51.301
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

00:46:51.521 --> 00:46:52.291
You, in your,

00:46:52.731 --> 00:46:54.261
Mary Wanless: actually, can
I say something else too?

00:46:54.531 --> 00:46:59.741
So whilst tradition cuts out the
feedback loop from the student to

00:46:59.791 --> 00:47:04.361
the teacher, it also largely cuts
out the feedback loop from the horse.

00:47:05.586 --> 00:47:06.386
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's true too.

00:47:07.206 --> 00:47:10.786
Mary Wanless: So, so a lot of what
I do is amplify that feedback loop.

00:47:10.846 --> 00:47:15.536
Like I'm, I talk to it sometimes, like
if you wanted to become a wine taster,

00:47:15.546 --> 00:47:19.566
you'd need labels on the bottles because
you'd need to know this is a Chardonnay.

00:47:19.596 --> 00:47:20.626
This is a Riesling.

00:47:21.296 --> 00:47:22.516
This is this country.

00:47:22.516 --> 00:47:23.296
This is America.

00:47:23.296 --> 00:47:24.496
And this is New Zealand.

00:47:24.776 --> 00:47:26.416
This is 2000 and whatever.

00:47:27.176 --> 00:47:27.416
Yeah.

00:47:27.416 --> 00:47:29.106
Somebody's got to put
labels on the bottles.

00:47:29.616 --> 00:47:29.646
Rupert Isaacson: It's

00:47:29.826 --> 00:47:34.096
Mary Wanless: kind of like that with what
the rider's feeling there on the horse.

00:47:34.556 --> 00:47:35.726
This isn't worth going for.

00:47:35.736 --> 00:47:37.326
This is not a great feeling.

00:47:37.456 --> 00:47:38.366
Do a bit more of that.

00:47:38.366 --> 00:47:39.306
You're getting closer.

00:47:39.416 --> 00:47:39.906
That's it.

00:47:39.906 --> 00:47:40.446
Go for that.

00:47:40.476 --> 00:47:40.896
Okay.

00:47:41.056 --> 00:47:41.926
Now you just hit it.

00:47:41.936 --> 00:47:42.676
That's what you want.

00:47:42.686 --> 00:47:50.216
So we're playing hotter, colder on
going for a feeling and really trying

00:47:50.216 --> 00:47:55.506
to get the rider getting to know what
to do through the horse's feedback.

00:47:56.101 --> 00:47:56.431
Rupert Isaacson: Right,

00:47:56.621 --> 00:47:59.341
Mary Wanless: but if you're just a rider
going, okay, my horse must do this.

00:47:59.341 --> 00:48:01.791
He needs to learn this I need to
show him how to this come on horse.

00:48:01.791 --> 00:48:02.531
You're not doing it.

00:48:02.621 --> 00:48:03.151
Rupert Isaacson: You're dominant.

00:48:03.191 --> 00:48:03.641
So there's no

00:48:03.661 --> 00:48:04.201
Mary Wanless: feedback.

00:48:04.451 --> 00:48:05.331
Rupert Isaacson: No, absolutely

00:48:06.151 --> 00:48:10.511
Mary Wanless: Take away either of those
feedback loops and you have a very

00:48:12.231 --> 00:48:15.631
unhelpful Potentially cruel system

00:48:15.991 --> 00:48:18.771
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely cruel to
everybody and of course with the military

00:48:18.771 --> 00:48:24.666
cruelty is built in because you actually
need it if you're training people to

00:48:24.666 --> 00:48:32.226
go and be desensitized to dying in
cavalry charges screaming at them and

00:48:32.266 --> 00:48:34.396
making them fall off, you could argue.

00:48:34.961 --> 00:48:40.501
Is useful, but hopefully that's not what
we're trying to do anymore, but it's what

00:48:40.501 --> 00:48:44.631
we've inherited you mentioned in what
you didn't mention I read in your bio.

00:48:44.631 --> 00:48:48.291
This also intrigued me and I want to
go into your equestrian mentors in a

00:48:48.291 --> 00:48:52.101
minute and I also want to go back to this
profound despair that we Almost hit on

00:48:52.101 --> 00:48:57.291
and then went away from but in your bio
talking about other methodologies that

00:48:57.291 --> 00:49:00.861
have helped you I noticed Feldenkrais was
in there and it's interesting how often

00:49:00.861 --> 00:49:04.961
this comes up I also like it because
when chat GPT tries to do something

00:49:04.961 --> 00:49:09.271
with it for our subtitling It always
comes back with failed in Christ, which

00:49:09.272 --> 00:49:11.325
Mary Wanless: That's

00:49:11.325 --> 00:49:13.378
Rupert Isaacson: something

00:49:13.378 --> 00:49:15.431
Mary Wanless: rather

00:49:15.811 --> 00:49:20.741
Rupert Isaacson: You know you Like me
know the great Linda Tellington Jones

00:49:20.771 --> 00:49:26.281
and for those listeners who don't know
her tune into our podcasts with her

00:49:26.801 --> 00:49:28.351
She has a lot of amazing insights.

00:49:28.561 --> 00:49:33.501
She also Learned and took a lot from
Feldenkrais talk to us a little bit

00:49:33.501 --> 00:49:38.361
about that because a lot of people
don't know about Feldenkrais and how

00:49:38.381 --> 00:49:43.141
that's actually influence so many
modalities that a lot of people use in,

00:49:43.191 --> 00:49:44.761
inside the equestrian world and out.

00:49:45.261 --> 00:49:45.961
How was it for you?

00:49:45.991 --> 00:49:47.811
How did you discover
it and what's it given

00:49:47.821 --> 00:49:47.841
Mary Wanless: you?

00:49:47.891 --> 00:49:50.531
I discovered the Feldenkrais
when I went to America.

00:49:50.711 --> 00:49:57.836
So, I gave up, I went to London and
a year later My very good friend from

00:49:57.836 --> 00:50:00.276
university, we had danced a lot together.

00:50:00.856 --> 00:50:02.146
She said, why don't you come with me?

00:50:02.146 --> 00:50:07.776
I want to do the San Francisco dancers
workshop, which we did for three months.

00:50:08.616 --> 00:50:13.056
And it's not exactly dance
therapy, but it's, it's a lot about

00:50:13.406 --> 00:50:16.226
unstructured dance, using dance to.

00:50:18.066 --> 00:50:21.356
Dance your life story, you
know, whatever it may be.

00:50:21.976 --> 00:50:27.166
And we had a Feldenkrais
teacher on the staff there.

00:50:27.196 --> 00:50:29.986
So we were doing a Feldenkrais
awareness through movement

00:50:29.996 --> 00:50:31.946
lessons a couple of times a week.

00:50:33.286 --> 00:50:40.146
And, you know, I think a lot of my
problems as a rider stemmed from just so

00:50:40.156 --> 00:50:47.086
much fight or flight energy being covered
over by the give up collapse energy.

00:50:47.991 --> 00:50:49.371
You know, I was not body aware.

00:50:49.371 --> 00:50:50.661
I was not very functional.

00:50:51.161 --> 00:50:53.891
And this was a very good
inroad into body work.

00:50:54.231 --> 00:50:56.631
And I've got friends who
are Feldenkrais teachers.

00:50:56.691 --> 00:51:01.721
One of my friends described it, I think,
rather well as almost like, you'll

00:51:01.721 --> 00:51:03.451
take a movement and tinker with it.

00:51:03.896 --> 00:51:06.676
You know, much as you might tinker
with something if you can't get a

00:51:06.676 --> 00:51:09.636
key to turn on a lock, just little
movements that tinker with it.

00:51:10.746 --> 00:51:14.476
And in the tinkering with
it, you will find other ways

00:51:14.476 --> 00:51:15.706
than your habitual pattern.

00:51:16.976 --> 00:51:20.456
And Feldenkrais is based a lot
on getting people doing non

00:51:20.456 --> 00:51:24.736
habitual movement and therefore
increasing your movement vocabulary.

00:51:26.596 --> 00:51:29.946
And once you start doing stuff
in performance and non stylized

00:51:29.946 --> 00:51:32.496
dance, you start to realize
that your movement vocabulary is

00:51:32.496 --> 00:51:33.716
actually really quite limited.

00:51:34.176 --> 00:51:36.436
You know, 30 seconds is
a long time in dance.

00:51:37.886 --> 00:51:38.516
It really is.

00:51:39.346 --> 00:51:39.826
So

00:51:42.106 --> 00:51:46.016
getting to be able to do
things in different ways.

00:51:47.306 --> 00:51:51.316
I, there's a lovely quote in a book
I don't know if it's still in print,

00:51:51.326 --> 00:51:54.606
Denise McGluggage, The Scented
Skier, one of my favorite quotes,

00:51:54.626 --> 00:51:59.056
she talks about breaking up clods of
habitual movement, like a gardener

00:51:59.056 --> 00:52:00.966
breaks up clods of earth with a hoe.

00:52:02.266 --> 00:52:05.756
That's what Feldenkrais does, it
breaks up clods of habitual movement.

00:52:07.126 --> 00:52:09.286
And you know, we've all
got our habit patterns and.

00:52:09.606 --> 00:52:12.866
Sometimes I think of it
like, the, that neurological

00:52:12.866 --> 00:52:14.276
connection would be like buses.

00:52:14.326 --> 00:52:16.376
Buses only go on certain routes, you know?

00:52:16.586 --> 00:52:19.356
The 128 takes a certain route
and that's all it ever does.

00:52:19.356 --> 00:52:20.816
Backwards and forwards on that route.

00:52:21.426 --> 00:52:24.346
But Feldenkrais would be like, you've
got taxis, you've got many more

00:52:24.346 --> 00:52:26.336
ways, many more minute adjustments.

00:52:28.086 --> 00:52:28.446
Yeah.

00:52:28.916 --> 00:52:29.336
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:52:29.426 --> 00:52:30.776
And as a

00:52:30.776 --> 00:52:38.476
Mary Wanless: rider, you, you want really
fine body control of your pelvic area.

00:52:38.616 --> 00:52:42.696
You know, that is so badly represented
in the brain compared to your hands.

00:52:42.696 --> 00:52:44.626
No wonder we want to do
everything with our hands.

00:52:44.627 --> 00:52:45.586
Rupert Isaacson: There's so

00:52:45.586 --> 00:52:48.136
Mary Wanless: much neurology
between your hands and your brain

00:52:48.336 --> 00:52:51.356
and so little neurology between
your pelvis and your brain.

00:52:53.496 --> 00:52:56.656
And so learning to develop that
neurology and that awareness.

00:52:57.051 --> 00:52:58.241
is a big part of it.

00:52:58.661 --> 00:53:02.101
So I met Feldenkrais in America,
came back, discovered there were

00:53:02.101 --> 00:53:05.621
two Feldenkrais lessons in, two
Feldenkrais teachers in London.

00:53:06.871 --> 00:53:10.851
And this was then in the early
eighties and started having lessons.

00:53:11.371 --> 00:53:14.931
And I've done a lot of different
body work and Feldenkrais has

00:53:14.931 --> 00:53:16.231
been one of the most helpful.

00:53:16.861 --> 00:53:21.301
They do one on one sessions, but the class
sessions, the awareness through movement

00:53:21.311 --> 00:53:23.281
sessions, make it affordable for anybody.

00:53:24.011 --> 00:53:25.101
There are lots of.

00:53:25.431 --> 00:53:31.101
lessons on the internet, some pay for some
free put out by the Throne Christ Guild.

00:53:32.131 --> 00:53:34.681
So it's something anybody can access.

00:53:35.591 --> 00:53:38.711
And it's really helpful.

00:53:39.041 --> 00:53:40.881
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things
I love about it is that it really

00:53:40.881 --> 00:53:43.111
emphasises also subtle movement that

00:53:43.161 --> 00:53:43.611
Mary Wanless: you can

00:53:43.641 --> 00:53:44.111
Rupert Isaacson: find.

00:53:45.046 --> 00:53:50.586
So much variation in really, really
small variations, you know, and then

00:53:50.586 --> 00:53:54.786
what those do neurologically Now
with the work that we've done we sort

00:53:54.786 --> 00:53:59.446
of have to know this so it helps to
create what's called BDNF Which is a

00:53:59.796 --> 00:54:04.056
brain derived neurotrophic factor the
protein in the brain that becomes a stem

00:54:04.056 --> 00:54:07.786
cell that then becomes a neuron which
fires when you move and problem solve

00:54:08.971 --> 00:54:13.051
Which is why we have optimal cognitive
function when we have a novel movement.

00:54:13.491 --> 00:54:16.281
Because we're hunter gatherers and
that's what it requires to be on high

00:54:16.281 --> 00:54:20.861
alert when you're gathering wild foods
or hunting wild animals because they're

00:54:20.861 --> 00:54:23.711
dangerous activities, variety of reasons.

00:54:23.941 --> 00:54:25.881
And one needs really sharp focus.

00:54:26.301 --> 00:54:29.141
And of course, as you say, you know,
modern life, sedentary life, but also

00:54:29.141 --> 00:54:33.691
just modern life, repetitive life, we
tend to get into these repetitive forms

00:54:33.691 --> 00:54:36.611
of movement because actually they're
functional in terms of earning money

00:54:36.611 --> 00:54:39.551
and that sort of thing because we have
a job and we move in this way for this

00:54:39.551 --> 00:54:42.581
job and we walk to the job to go that
way or we travel to the job in this

00:54:42.581 --> 00:54:45.431
way and in school we're told to move in
this way or that and then we're robbed.

00:54:45.431 --> 00:54:46.371
Yeah, we become very

00:54:46.371 --> 00:54:49.161
Mary Wanless: limited in our
movements and our body perception.

00:54:49.421 --> 00:54:50.861
Rupert Isaacson: Right,
and we don't play anymore.

00:54:51.201 --> 00:54:53.281
So dance, of course, is a form of play.

00:54:53.691 --> 00:54:57.281
And this intrigues me because if
you had a shaming mum who's not a

00:54:57.291 --> 00:55:00.231
barrel of laughs Christian scientist,
where did dance come into this?

00:55:00.891 --> 00:55:03.661
Mary Wanless: There was a ballet
school in Ickenham where I grew up.

00:55:04.256 --> 00:55:05.406
Lovely ballet teacher.

00:55:05.406 --> 00:55:08.436
My ballet teacher was one of the
lovely adults of my childhood.

00:55:09.156 --> 00:55:14.486
And so I think most little girls in,
in Econome went to that ballet school.

00:55:16.376 --> 00:55:20.266
Rupert Isaacson: But if dance, if
dance wasn't, you know, a feature of

00:55:20.776 --> 00:55:24.676
Christian science and partying, why were
you allowed to go to a dance school?

00:55:24.956 --> 00:55:25.996
Mary Wanless: That's a good question.

00:55:26.016 --> 00:55:29.066
I think ballet is traditional
enough and classical enough.

00:55:29.366 --> 00:55:33.586
that it passed muster and disciplined
enough that it passed muster.

00:55:34.106 --> 00:55:34.456
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:55:34.716 --> 00:55:35.076
Okay.

00:55:35.346 --> 00:55:37.516
There was enough suffering involved
that it was There was enough

00:55:37.516 --> 00:55:38.876
Mary Wanless: suffering
involved, I think, yes.

00:55:40.726 --> 00:55:43.136
Only it turned out that it was
a teacher where there was very

00:55:43.136 --> 00:55:44.046
little suffering involved.

00:55:44.596 --> 00:55:47.296
But I think, I think it could have
been that there was enough suffering

00:55:47.296 --> 00:55:49.556
involved that made the grade.

00:55:49.676 --> 00:55:53.376
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting that
this whole thing that things are only Only

00:55:53.376 --> 00:55:54.806
worth doing if there's suffering involved.

00:55:54.806 --> 00:55:57.886
And of course, that's the equestrian
tradition we've inherited.

00:55:58.056 --> 00:56:00.196
Mary Wanless: Indeed, yes, if my
mother had known how much suffering

00:56:00.196 --> 00:56:02.696
was going to be involved in my writing,
she might have been all for it.

00:56:02.696 --> 00:56:02.836
She'd

00:56:02.836 --> 00:56:04.076
Rupert Isaacson: have
subsidized it completely.

00:56:04.626 --> 00:56:05.336
That's hilarious.

00:56:05.786 --> 00:56:06.936
Let's go back to this.

00:56:07.341 --> 00:56:10.111
This despair that made you give up riding.

00:56:10.241 --> 00:56:14.141
Okay, talk us through that process,
that period, because I think, I think

00:56:14.301 --> 00:56:15.801
many of us have been through that.

00:56:16.311 --> 00:56:18.871
And of course this could
be in any walk of life.

00:56:19.531 --> 00:56:19.831
Mary Wanless: Yes.

00:56:19.881 --> 00:56:21.581
Rupert Isaacson: How did it
hit you with the thing that you

00:56:21.581 --> 00:56:23.701
love the most in life, and why?

00:56:24.561 --> 00:56:28.336
Mary Wanless: So I, you know, after
university and, and That year where

00:56:28.336 --> 00:56:34.466
I didn't do the post grad teacher
training, I went full time into horses

00:56:34.466 --> 00:56:38.946
and ran a yard and struggled with
my intermediate instructor's exam.

00:56:38.946 --> 00:56:40.896
I failed that four times
before I passed it.

00:56:41.666 --> 00:56:46.016
At that time, you had to pass every module
on the same day, which I then changed.

00:56:46.016 --> 00:56:46.676
What was the block?

00:56:46.676 --> 00:56:47.396
Rupert Isaacson: What was the thing?

00:56:47.516 --> 00:56:49.056
Was there something you
failed at each time?

00:56:49.626 --> 00:56:52.026
Mary Wanless: I think first of
all, I failed the flatwork and

00:56:52.026 --> 00:56:54.756
the jumping, and then I failed
the jumping, and then I failed the

00:56:54.756 --> 00:56:57.356
flatwork, and then I passed all of it.

00:56:57.646 --> 00:56:57.976
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:56:58.416 --> 00:57:01.966
Mary Wanless: And I wanted to take my
eye, you know, so I was sort of ambitious,

00:57:01.966 --> 00:57:05.586
like I wanted to get these exams and
I knew I wasn't a talented writer.

00:57:05.936 --> 00:57:10.486
And I ended up working for somebody
nobody's ever heard of, but he was one

00:57:10.486 --> 00:57:16.256
of the few continentally trained dressage
writers in the UK in the mid 1970s.

00:57:16.836 --> 00:57:17.996
His name was Dan Aharoni.

00:57:18.006 --> 00:57:19.166
He was originally Israeli.

00:57:19.187 --> 00:57:21.126
And

00:57:22.386 --> 00:57:24.526
Rupert Isaacson: was that just by fluke
that you ended up working for him?

00:57:25.086 --> 00:57:27.536
Mary Wanless: He advertised,
I think, in Horse and Hound.

00:57:27.696 --> 00:57:30.996
I'd been being a working student for Mrs.

00:57:31.006 --> 00:57:33.786
Sturrock, who was one of the
fellows of the British Horse Society

00:57:33.786 --> 00:57:36.626
and renowned for being good at
getting people through their exams.

00:57:37.266 --> 00:57:38.476
I'd been working for her.

00:57:39.276 --> 00:57:42.806
I'd been eventing in
that job and previously.

00:57:43.516 --> 00:57:47.486
And when this job came up, I thought,
Oh, maybe I should apply to that.

00:57:47.486 --> 00:57:47.816
And Mrs.

00:57:47.826 --> 00:57:49.516
Sturrock said, This
guy's really good news.

00:57:49.516 --> 00:57:50.066
Go do it.

00:57:51.296 --> 00:57:52.366
So I got that job.

00:57:53.616 --> 00:57:59.396
And it was kind of funny because in
the interview, I rode Dan's horse and

00:58:00.066 --> 00:58:06.216
at one point I did a half hold and I
knew it was it, yeah, did that on that

00:58:06.216 --> 00:58:11.106
horse, complete fluke, quite possibly
got the job on the back of that, I

00:58:11.106 --> 00:58:14.586
don't know, didn't do another one
in the whole two years I was there.

00:58:16.816 --> 00:58:18.246
It was the second one I'd ever done.

00:58:18.456 --> 00:58:21.186
I did one when I was a
student when we, we went.

00:58:21.411 --> 00:58:25.091
before a competition, a couple of
us, and had a lesson at Fulmer Riding

00:58:25.091 --> 00:58:28.131
School, which was owned by Robert
Hall, who'd been to the Spanish school,

00:58:28.841 --> 00:58:32.251
and going round a corner on the right
rein at the end of the short side on a

00:58:32.251 --> 00:58:35.071
grey horse called Balego, it happened.

00:58:35.861 --> 00:58:36.791
And I knew that was it.

00:58:37.381 --> 00:58:37.711
Yeah.

00:58:38.071 --> 00:58:40.251
Didn't happen again until
that job interview, which was

00:58:40.251 --> 00:58:41.641
probably about four years later.

00:58:42.481 --> 00:58:46.611
Didn't happen again for, I can't
tell you how long until I got where

00:58:46.611 --> 00:58:47.711
I could kind of knock those out.

00:58:47.711 --> 00:58:48.921
I can knock those out now, but.

00:58:49.446 --> 00:58:51.306
and have been for a large number of years.

00:58:51.306 --> 00:58:56.436
But anyway, so I got that job and it
was clear to me immediately that he

00:58:56.446 --> 00:58:58.916
had a level of skill I had not seen.

00:59:00.986 --> 00:59:03.326
And he taught me a lot on the lunge.

00:59:04.626 --> 00:59:07.216
And I had what should have been
a brilliant learning opportunity.

00:59:07.286 --> 00:59:09.526
You know, he would lunge me This
doesn't sound like a road to despair

00:59:10.066 --> 00:59:10.256
Rupert Isaacson: here.

00:59:10.676 --> 00:59:11.086
Mary Wanless: Sorry?

00:59:11.316 --> 00:59:13.046
Rupert Isaacson: This does not
sound like a road to despair.

00:59:13.336 --> 00:59:15.726
Mary Wanless: No, it wasn't
despair at that point.

00:59:16.676 --> 00:59:20.986
But during that time, it kind of
was that he said the same things.

00:59:21.436 --> 00:59:21.866
And guess what?

00:59:21.866 --> 00:59:22.706
He said them louder.

00:59:23.566 --> 00:59:26.106
In response to which I did the
same things, and guess what?

00:59:26.136 --> 00:59:27.146
I did them harder.

00:59:28.476 --> 00:59:31.066
And so we kind of were like
ships that passed in the night.

00:59:31.316 --> 00:59:32.926
You know, so it was a double whammy.

00:59:32.976 --> 00:59:36.836
He showed me what a really good rider
could do, but he couldn't teach me to do

00:59:36.966 --> 00:59:37.816
Rupert Isaacson: couldn't communicate it.

00:59:38.026 --> 00:59:38.426
Yeah.

00:59:38.786 --> 00:59:40.346
Mary Wanless: So I learned a lot.

00:59:40.906 --> 00:59:42.416
Rupert Isaacson: So you learned
what you couldn't do, basically.

00:59:42.416 --> 00:59:42.726
I learned

00:59:42.726 --> 00:59:43.536
Mary Wanless: what I couldn't do.

00:59:43.846 --> 00:59:47.676
And a lot of horses came into our
yard, you know, and I saw these ugly

00:59:47.676 --> 00:59:49.686
ducklings get transformed into swans.

00:59:51.466 --> 00:59:54.836
And basically, I couldn't do it.

00:59:54.846 --> 00:59:56.856
Now, while I was there, I did pass my I.

00:59:57.006 --> 00:59:59.426
Fortunately, that was a lot less
traumatic than the intermediate.

00:59:59.446 --> 01:00:01.976
So, I did pass that while I was there.

01:00:02.046 --> 01:00:04.916
I was very scared I would fail
the jumping because I wasn't

01:00:04.916 --> 01:00:06.066
really jumping at that point.

01:00:06.146 --> 01:00:08.656
I gave up inventing to sit at
the feet of the great master.

01:00:11.066 --> 01:00:14.556
And it was two years into that
where it became really clear

01:00:14.556 --> 01:00:15.876
that he was losing faith in me.

01:00:15.876 --> 01:00:16.956
He was teaching me less.

01:00:17.921 --> 01:00:23.031
I was losing faith in myself and I
actually went, I had two weeks off

01:00:23.071 --> 01:00:26.361
and I went to Greece on a holiday for
young singles and while I was there,

01:00:26.361 --> 01:00:27.981
I thought, I have to stop doing this.

01:00:28.851 --> 01:00:30.071
I can't do this any longer.

01:00:31.551 --> 01:00:33.911
And it was me going, this
is the end of my dream.

01:00:35.481 --> 01:00:38.511
And I did sell my horse and I
quit and I went to live in London.

01:00:43.721 --> 01:00:45.651
Rupert Isaacson: And how long
did that period of despair last?

01:00:47.071 --> 01:00:50.911
Mary Wanless: So I worked
for that guy for two years.

01:00:53.501 --> 01:00:56.761
Rupert Isaacson: But then the period
after that, you've sold the horse, you're

01:00:56.761 --> 01:00:57.771
in London, you don't think I sold the

01:00:57.771 --> 01:01:00.551
Mary Wanless: horse, I was
in London, I got involved in

01:01:00.551 --> 01:01:02.441
psychotherapy pretty quickly.

01:01:03.241 --> 01:01:05.941
The trips to San Francisco
and the dancers workshop.

01:01:06.471 --> 01:01:09.091
That was also really important.

01:01:09.121 --> 01:01:15.471
It showed me that I, I, that there was
a really serious approach to the body.

01:01:16.361 --> 01:01:16.691
Rupert Isaacson: Learning

01:01:16.691 --> 01:01:17.441
Mary Wanless: about the body.

01:01:17.851 --> 01:01:22.711
When I was in America, I read, I
think the first of Timothy Galway's

01:01:22.741 --> 01:01:24.131
books, The Inner Game of Tennis.

01:01:25.486 --> 01:01:29.836
And I started reading some of the early
books on visualisation and healing.

01:01:30.236 --> 01:01:30.746
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:01:30.936 --> 01:01:31.346
Mary Wanless: Right?

01:01:31.816 --> 01:01:36.556
So those books I found in the US possibly
before I would have found them in the UK.

01:01:36.736 --> 01:01:37.026
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.

01:01:37.096 --> 01:01:38.446
Especially if you're
in Northern California.

01:01:38.536 --> 01:01:38.726
Yeah.

01:01:38.916 --> 01:01:39.416
Mary Wanless: Yes.

01:01:40.576 --> 01:01:44.756
And by then I'd, I got back into writing
again, I'd gone to London, I didn't

01:01:44.756 --> 01:01:49.096
write or teach for about six months,
and then I got talked into it, and I

01:01:49.126 --> 01:01:55.806
started with a really blank slate of
a beginner's mind, and went to the

01:01:55.806 --> 01:02:00.886
dancer's workshop, discovered a few
things just in the early days of starting

01:02:00.886 --> 01:02:03.956
again that were really biomechanics.

01:02:04.066 --> 01:02:07.176
It's absolutely crucial that I
hadn't understood or been doing.

01:02:08.176 --> 01:02:13.286
And while I was in America, I went, okay,
I'm not just an eccentric writing teacher.

01:02:13.286 --> 01:02:14.946
There's really something in this.

01:02:16.496 --> 01:02:18.986
And at some point I'm
going to write a book.

01:02:21.846 --> 01:02:25.566
Rupert Isaacson: Why at that stage,
did you feel ready to, or did you

01:02:25.566 --> 01:02:27.006
feel the book bubbling inside you?

01:02:27.006 --> 01:02:31.686
Because I'm sure at that stage, you
were still with a lot of questions and

01:02:33.146 --> 01:02:37.011
Mary Wanless: I had lots of
questions, but essentially When I

01:02:37.011 --> 01:02:40.621
started riding again after I'd given
up, I discovered core strength.

01:02:41.781 --> 01:02:46.541
Now I called it bearing down and still do,
but I discovered how to switch on my core.

01:02:47.601 --> 01:02:50.841
And I discovered that on a horse I was
riding for somebody that jogged a lot.

01:02:52.161 --> 01:02:54.651
And most of the time it would jog and
I would pull on the reins and it would

01:02:54.651 --> 01:02:55.971
pull on the reins and it kept jogging.

01:02:57.881 --> 01:02:59.941
And then every now and again
I could stop it jogging but

01:02:59.941 --> 01:03:00.901
I didn't know what I'd done.

01:03:00.941 --> 01:03:03.231
And when it happened it was,
you know, it was like that.

01:03:03.231 --> 01:03:04.091
It was in a moment.

01:03:04.551 --> 01:03:08.031
Rupert Isaacson: And if you were to put
that into a few short words now, what

01:03:08.101 --> 01:03:09.751
did you do that stopped it jogging?

01:03:09.831 --> 01:03:12.881
Mary Wanless: I caught up to the balance
point rather than being behind it.

01:03:13.471 --> 01:03:15.741
Essentially being the water
skier to the horse's motorboat.

01:03:16.261 --> 01:03:16.401
Rupert Isaacson: I

01:03:16.401 --> 01:03:22.566
Mary Wanless: caught up to the balance
point and I found how to activate my core.

01:03:23.386 --> 01:03:24.786
Rupert Isaacson: How did
you activate your core?

01:03:25.556 --> 01:03:28.766
Mary Wanless: Well the simple way to
answer that is to say if you clear your

01:03:28.766 --> 01:03:33.076
throat and just go and put your hands
on your abdominals while you do it,

01:03:34.166 --> 01:03:40.006
you will be feeling and doing what good
riders do when they use their core.

01:03:41.426 --> 01:03:43.725
Rupert Isaacson: And one of the
things that does is increase the

01:03:43.725 --> 01:03:47.016
Mary Wanless: pressure in your
insides, which is why the balloon

01:03:47.016 --> 01:03:48.526
blowing exercise is so useful.

01:03:53.026 --> 01:03:53.466
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:03:56.476 --> 01:03:59.746
Mary Wanless: And that was just one
piece, but it's the pivotal piece.

01:04:00.176 --> 01:04:00.586
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:04:00.596 --> 01:04:00.856
You're not

01:04:00.856 --> 01:04:03.506
Mary Wanless: doing that, and you're
riding and pulling on the reins, and

01:04:03.506 --> 01:04:06.936
most people are sucking their stomach
in at that point, and you're going

01:04:06.936 --> 01:04:09.666
to be the victim of what happens.

01:04:09.706 --> 01:04:15.156
You will not be able to be proactive.

01:04:15.166 --> 01:04:16.716
You will always be reactive.

01:04:18.756 --> 01:04:19.286
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:04:19.376 --> 01:04:19.646
It's

01:04:19.646 --> 01:04:20.046
Mary Wanless: very interesting.

01:04:20.236 --> 01:04:21.246
So I've turned it round.

01:04:21.626 --> 01:04:22.126
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:04:22.386 --> 01:04:26.946
So, yeah, it, because core is
such a, particularly in riding,

01:04:26.966 --> 01:04:32.016
it's such a esoteric, you know,
people throw that word out there.

01:04:32.406 --> 01:04:32.936
Mary Wanless: They do.

01:04:33.026 --> 01:04:34.546
Rupert Isaacson: Without
saying what it is.

01:04:34.896 --> 01:04:36.536
Mary Wanless: Yes, we
teach people to do it.

01:04:36.726 --> 01:04:40.006
Rupert Isaacson: In your Okay, so
listeners, Mary Wondless is going

01:04:40.006 --> 01:04:41.236
to tell you what is your core.

01:04:42.286 --> 01:04:43.036
What is your core?

01:04:43.076 --> 01:04:44.706
What is the rider's core, Mary?

01:04:45.046 --> 01:04:46.956
Mary Wanless: Alright, well
there are two versions of that.

01:04:47.576 --> 01:04:51.866
You've got the Pilates version
of the core, which is the layers

01:04:51.866 --> 01:04:58.896
of muscle around your torso, from
your spine round to your front.

01:05:00.086 --> 01:05:01.686
Especially the deep layers of muscle.

01:05:02.886 --> 01:05:05.266
Now I think of the core a little
differently, but I wouldn't have

01:05:05.266 --> 01:05:10.476
thought of it in the way I think of
it now, when I learned how to do that.

01:05:12.036 --> 01:05:18.286
So now I would think of the core, like
if you cut an apple in half from the

01:05:18.296 --> 01:05:23.566
end with the stalk to the end with
the little thing on it, what you see

01:05:23.566 --> 01:05:25.966
is a line and then it bulges out.

01:05:26.331 --> 01:05:28.916
And then the line continues
to the other end of the anvil.

01:05:28.916 --> 01:05:29.651
Rupert Isaacson: So

01:05:29.931 --> 01:05:33.161
Mary Wanless: my version of the core now
would be it starts under your feet, under

01:05:33.161 --> 01:05:38.141
your instep, goes through deep muscles
of your calf, the inside muscles of your

01:05:38.141 --> 01:05:46.011
thigh, your pelvic floor, through your
organs, up to the, the psoas muscles.

01:05:46.261 --> 01:05:49.911
and also the slings and bags and
sacks that contain your organs.

01:05:51.001 --> 01:05:58.191
Psoas muscles take you to diaphragm
and QL and up through the trachea

01:05:58.221 --> 01:06:01.791
and your lungs and so on into your
neck, your throat and your tongue.

01:06:01.792 --> 01:06:02.291
Your

01:06:02.771 --> 01:06:03.611
Rupert Isaacson: tongue, interesting.

01:06:03.961 --> 01:06:04.331
Mary Wanless: Yes.

01:06:04.871 --> 01:06:06.891
Rupert Isaacson: Does jaw,
jaw come into this as well?

01:06:06.892 --> 01:06:07.811
Mary Wanless: Not really.

01:06:07.811 --> 01:06:08.271
Okay.

01:06:08.271 --> 01:06:10.141
No, not TMJ, but tongue.

01:06:10.981 --> 01:06:13.701
And, and also to agree chin
and roof of your mouth.

01:06:13.851 --> 01:06:14.201
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:06:14.371 --> 01:06:15.581
So yeah, up through the palate.

01:06:17.541 --> 01:06:20.451
Mary Wanless: So, so that would be
Tom Myers definition of the core.

01:06:20.691 --> 01:06:24.621
And he's a guy who's written a book
called Anatomy Trains, which is about to

01:06:24.631 --> 01:06:26.441
come out in its fourth edition, I think.

01:06:26.881 --> 01:06:31.411
And what Tom has done for understandings
of how muscle and connective

01:06:31.411 --> 01:06:35.061
tissue work in chains is fabulous.

01:06:35.401 --> 01:06:35.781
Rupert Isaacson: Tom who?

01:06:36.411 --> 01:06:37.001
Mary Wanless: Myers.

01:06:37.211 --> 01:06:38.241
M Y E R

01:06:38.821 --> 01:06:38.841
Rupert Isaacson: S.

01:06:38.841 --> 01:06:40.261
M Y E R S.

01:06:40.541 --> 01:06:40.591
Yes,

01:06:40.971 --> 01:06:41.041
Mary Wanless: Tom Myers.

01:06:41.681 --> 01:06:42.201
Rupert Isaacson: Tom Myers.

01:06:43.501 --> 01:06:46.801
So what you've described really is the
inside of a taurine structure, right?

01:06:46.811 --> 01:06:51.091
You know, we're all taurine structures,
meaning we've got, you know, a hole

01:06:51.101 --> 01:06:53.491
here, we've got a hole at the other end,
and there's something in between, and

01:06:53.501 --> 01:06:58.581
basically we get through life by passing
one to the other and That's what we do.

01:06:58.951 --> 01:07:03.111
But that's a complex, simple
concept, complex process.

01:07:03.251 --> 01:07:04.671
As you say, many chains of muscles.

01:07:05.471 --> 01:07:09.791
Mary Wanless: But it is possible to learn
to really feel those chains of muscles.

01:07:10.851 --> 01:07:14.151
How does it come on in
a really helpful way?

01:07:14.152 --> 01:07:18.931
But when I first stopped that horse
jogging, it was just much more

01:07:18.931 --> 01:07:25.241
about my abdominals and my internal
pressure within the abdominal cavity.

01:07:26.681 --> 01:07:28.981
Rupert Isaacson: What did you
do within that abdominal cavity

01:07:29.011 --> 01:07:29.861
that stopped the jogging?

01:07:32.281 --> 01:07:33.771
Mary Wanless: Or as if I had done that.

01:07:33.771 --> 01:07:39.041
I didn't do that, but I just hit
on being on the right balance point

01:07:39.531 --> 01:07:45.711
with enough internal pressure and
was able to get my seat bones, as it

01:07:45.711 --> 01:07:47.801
were, to not be moved by the horse.

01:07:48.531 --> 01:07:55.811
But to take on the slower
movements of walk and therefore

01:07:55.811 --> 01:07:57.211
walk the horse underneath me.

01:07:57.541 --> 01:07:58.011
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:08:02.601 --> 01:08:03.771
That process

01:08:06.881 --> 01:08:12.111
is of course dependent
on a certain amount of

01:08:14.561 --> 01:08:15.881
rider experience.

01:08:15.881 --> 01:08:17.341
You've got to feel pretty
comfortable up there.

01:08:19.121 --> 01:08:24.321
It's got, it's dependent on a
certain amount of physical fitness.

01:08:24.871 --> 01:08:27.571
Not crazy, but a certain
amount and strength.

01:08:27.661 --> 01:08:31.621
And it's also dependent on, as you
say, a certain amount of physical

01:08:32.461 --> 01:08:38.421
cognition, given that most of us are
not brought up to be that embodied, as

01:08:38.441 --> 01:08:43.571
you say, that to be that in awareness
of, of our bodies, those three things.

01:08:44.716 --> 01:08:48.856
Let's say you now take a, what we
call in Germany, a Wieder Einsteiger,

01:08:48.856 --> 01:08:53.456
so a, you know, a late rider, late
comer to rider, or someone who rode

01:08:53.456 --> 01:08:56.776
in youth and then took a break and
is coming back, which is often.

01:08:59.601 --> 01:09:01.771
Is now perhaps out of
touch with their body.

01:09:01.961 --> 01:09:03.201
Maybe they're not in great shape.

01:09:03.561 --> 01:09:05.381
They're certainly nervous up there.

01:09:06.161 --> 01:09:07.131
Worried about falling.

01:09:07.641 --> 01:09:12.801
And are going to be at the
mercy of the horse's movement.

01:09:13.441 --> 01:09:20.171
What would be the one, two, three
over a certain period of time where

01:09:20.171 --> 01:09:23.681
you could bring them to that kind
of awareness where they could access

01:09:23.681 --> 01:09:27.001
that call in that ahem ahem way
and actually make it work for them?

01:09:27.511 --> 01:09:29.921
Mary Wanless: If you're talking
about somebody who has some riding

01:09:29.921 --> 01:09:31.801
experience, they might not be very fit.

01:09:32.391 --> 01:09:33.921
They may not have ridden for a few years.

01:09:35.251 --> 01:09:38.161
I would say in lesson one,
they will pretty certainly

01:09:38.161 --> 01:09:39.431
get a glimpse of this working.

01:09:41.581 --> 01:09:42.681
They won't be strong in it.

01:09:42.731 --> 01:09:44.091
They won't be able to hold it.

01:09:45.091 --> 01:09:49.621
Learning to do that and breathe at
the same time is the critical thing.

01:09:49.651 --> 01:09:53.681
And it's part of what balloon bleeding
teaches as well as that quiet mind.

01:09:54.661 --> 01:10:00.151
And so I would say in, in lesson one,
people start to get an inkling of this.

01:10:00.391 --> 01:10:05.161
If you're talking a total beginner,
we would still probably early on in

01:10:05.161 --> 01:10:07.051
lesson one, introduce the concept.

01:10:07.571 --> 01:10:10.793
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so at least
intellectually they know it exists.

01:10:10.793 --> 01:10:11.130
Mary Wanless: Yeah.

01:10:11.130 --> 01:10:11.467
Yes.

01:10:11.467 --> 01:10:16.189
And working in walk and walk halts
is where people begin to get it.

01:10:16.189 --> 01:10:16.526
Right.

01:10:17.326 --> 01:10:20.886
And if they've got a difficult horse
that really has spent its life pulling

01:10:20.886 --> 01:10:23.696
on the rein and going which encourages
the rider to pull back and lean

01:10:23.706 --> 01:10:28.416
back and press in their feet and do
all the wrong things, then it's not

01:10:28.416 --> 01:10:32.006
going to be as smooth and easy as if
you've got a horse that will stop.

01:10:32.761 --> 01:10:33.661
If you do the right thing.

01:10:33.931 --> 01:10:36.331
I mean, all horses will stop if
you do the right thing, but you may

01:10:36.331 --> 01:10:40.081
need to be righter than right on a
horse that where you've got to go.

01:10:40.121 --> 01:10:42.551
Sorry, honey, we're retraining
how you think about the bit.

01:10:42.671 --> 01:10:45.601
I know you thought it was for leaning
on, but it's for something different.

01:10:46.701 --> 01:10:47.071
Yeah.

01:10:47.201 --> 01:10:50.791
So you don't really want to be doing
your first lessons with somebody

01:10:50.791 --> 01:10:54.141
in that situation, but sometimes
that's the horse they arrive on.

01:10:54.141 --> 01:10:55.061
And that's what you're doing.

01:10:55.291 --> 01:10:56.301
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I got it.

01:10:56.301 --> 01:10:58.521
I mean, that's why I'm a great
believer in putting people on good

01:10:58.521 --> 01:11:02.391
school master horses and creating
those horses for your students.

01:11:02.606 --> 01:11:03.436
If, if you can.

01:11:03.746 --> 01:11:08.726
One of the, one of the other things I
know about your methods, which I really

01:11:08.726 --> 01:11:12.296
believe in, is giving people stuff
to do when they're not on the horse.

01:11:12.496 --> 01:11:12.656
Absolutely.

01:11:13.356 --> 01:11:17.386
I do half my teaching, I'd
say, is not with a pony.

01:11:17.556 --> 01:11:18.966
It's just with the monkey.

01:11:19.396 --> 01:11:23.036
And if you're getting certain muscle
memories, whether it's for in hand

01:11:23.136 --> 01:11:26.586
work or whether it's for ridden work,
so that when you're presented with

01:11:26.586 --> 01:11:31.616
the pony, either at your side or
underneath your butt, you can access.

01:11:32.066 --> 01:11:37.376
These muscle memories talk to us about
what are your main go tos with this?

01:11:38.736 --> 01:11:40.176
Mary Wanless: Gosh with dismounted work.

01:11:40.176 --> 01:11:42.496
Well, we there's lots of dismounted.

01:11:42.866 --> 01:11:44.136
Well, I mean dismounted

01:11:44.166 --> 01:11:44.866
Rupert Isaacson: without a horse

01:11:45.371 --> 01:11:46.131
Mary Wanless: Without a horse.

01:11:46.591 --> 01:11:48.081
Rupert Isaacson: Non pony involvement.

01:11:48.821 --> 01:11:53.081
Mary Wanless: So the, the real
origin of this was, I believe

01:11:53.091 --> 01:11:57.031
it was 1982, I'd arrived in
London it was a horrible winter.

01:11:57.081 --> 01:11:58.201
Everywhere was frozen.

01:11:59.341 --> 01:12:02.261
I got good at giving lessons
in walk on frozen arenas.

01:12:03.261 --> 01:12:05.741
My ability to pay my rent was on the line.

01:12:06.061 --> 01:12:06.441
Right.

01:12:06.731 --> 01:12:09.321
And after that winter I thought
I need something up my sleeve

01:12:09.561 --> 01:12:10.921
in case this happens again.

01:12:11.181 --> 01:12:15.431
And I invented the idea that one
group of clients in South London,

01:12:15.841 --> 01:12:18.661
somebody had a big house, we'd use
her big house, her sitting room.

01:12:18.821 --> 01:12:21.181
Group of clients in North London,
somebody else had a big house.

01:12:21.431 --> 01:12:23.831
And then we do a series
of winter workshops on a

01:12:23.831 --> 01:12:25.241
Tuesday evening or whatever.

01:12:25.511 --> 01:12:27.061
Rupert Isaacson: The arena
is the living room, right?

01:12:27.641 --> 01:12:27.981
Mary Wanless: Yeah.

01:12:28.721 --> 01:12:31.971
And so I set that up and people
bought it and it was all great.

01:12:32.001 --> 01:12:33.401
And then I thought, shit,
what am I going to do?

01:12:35.391 --> 01:12:38.601
So I had to come up with
some exercises and I

01:12:38.601 --> 01:12:41.571
one of them was, you know, just
sitting in chairs and bearing down and.

01:12:42.036 --> 01:12:45.066
We didn't have balloon breathing there,
but did a whole load with breathing

01:12:45.066 --> 01:12:46.816
and body awareness and noticing.

01:12:47.206 --> 01:12:54.176
And I had some sort of martial arts ish
exercises and some Feldenkrais exercises,

01:12:54.236 --> 01:12:56.566
and I taught mental rehearsal as well.

01:12:57.046 --> 01:13:01.286
And I put together these workshops.

01:13:01.726 --> 01:13:04.916
And that was the beginning of the
dismounted element of this work.

01:13:04.916 --> 01:13:06.916
It came out of adversity, as so much does.

01:13:07.221 --> 01:13:07.401
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:13:07.941 --> 01:13:11.011
Mary Wanless: And I've just kept
added to dismounted exercises.

01:13:11.011 --> 01:13:14.181
There's so much you can do driving
your car, you know, sitting

01:13:14.181 --> 01:13:15.841
on two seat bones, pushing.

01:13:15.981 --> 01:13:19.351
If anybody pulls on the steering wheel
driving their car, I will guarantee

01:13:19.351 --> 01:13:21.691
you they're going to be someone
that pulls on the reins, you know,

01:13:21.891 --> 01:13:24.821
push on the steering wheel, learn
to bear down, bear down and breathe.

01:13:25.906 --> 01:13:27.966
Notice what's happening in your mid back.

01:13:28.036 --> 01:13:30.126
You know, if you're a woman,
it's probably push your mid back

01:13:30.126 --> 01:13:31.486
back into the seat of the chair.

01:13:32.556 --> 01:13:33.756
Most women are hollow backed.

01:13:33.966 --> 01:13:35.146
Not everyone, but most.

01:13:35.726 --> 01:13:41.526
And there's so much you can practice
off horse that feeds into on horse.

01:13:41.556 --> 01:13:45.476
And you can also do exercises that are
ahead of where you are in your riding

01:13:45.486 --> 01:13:47.496
to prepare you for where you're going.

01:13:48.876 --> 01:13:49.556
Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.

01:13:49.896 --> 01:13:50.546
I so agree.

01:13:50.716 --> 01:13:51.696
Mary Wanless: It's so valuable.

01:13:51.697 --> 01:13:53.736
Rupert Isaacson: It's fun.

01:13:54.316 --> 01:14:00.571
It's, it's, it's Often I think the key
between success and failure for riders,

01:14:01.651 --> 01:14:07.521
because as soon as you add the pony,
it gets complicated for the monkey.

01:14:08.071 --> 01:14:08.381
Mary Wanless: Yes.

01:14:09.436 --> 01:14:13.456
Rupert Isaacson: Cap if we can simplify
things down, take away that pressure, take

01:14:13.456 --> 01:14:18.476
away that fear, take away the judgment,
take away the lot, and just say, this is

01:14:18.476 --> 01:14:21.176
just having a bit of fun with this thing.

01:14:21.726 --> 01:14:26.626
But so few, so few writing
instructors think this way.

01:14:27.326 --> 01:14:31.406
Mary Wanless: Yes, but they also wouldn't
know what exercises to break it down into.

01:14:31.696 --> 01:14:32.136
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:14:32.366 --> 01:14:34.496
Mary Wanless: But the
value of it is enormous.

01:14:34.986 --> 01:14:35.856
Rupert Isaacson: I, I so agree.

01:14:35.916 --> 01:14:36.686
I couldn't agree more.

01:14:36.996 --> 01:14:37.696
Okay, you sold me.

01:14:37.726 --> 01:14:38.756
I'm coming on your next course.

01:14:39.226 --> 01:14:39.596
All right.

01:14:39.606 --> 01:14:41.746
So let's talk about mentors.

01:14:41.996 --> 01:14:47.546
So when I was having to go down my
dressage path and my, it was because

01:14:47.546 --> 01:14:51.221
of autism and because of finding
that working collection with a child.

01:14:51.731 --> 01:14:57.061
In front of me or not, that the
collection was the key and then what

01:14:57.061 --> 01:15:00.371
I found out from neuroscientists
are the collection rocks your hips.

01:15:00.611 --> 01:15:04.311
In this particular way, if it's soft,
that's oxytocin, that's what's calming

01:15:04.311 --> 01:15:07.911
down the nervous system, that's
what's opening up the communication.

01:15:08.911 --> 01:15:10.481
Because oxytocin's not
just a feel good hormone.

01:15:11.326 --> 01:15:16.106
It's Hormone of Communication and,
oh gosh, okay, so now I need to learn

01:15:16.106 --> 01:15:17.516
more about this collection thing.

01:15:18.026 --> 01:15:22.576
Not a dressage rider coming in
in my 40s, you know, oh shit,

01:15:22.606 --> 01:15:23.456
I've got to learn this thing.

01:15:23.776 --> 01:15:26.756
Going and talking to all the dressage
people say, Oh, well, it takes 500

01:15:26.756 --> 01:15:29.226
years to learn this and it's not really
possible anyway and someone like you

01:15:29.226 --> 01:15:31.746
probably can't wear it and it's really
just for a higher priesthood, am I?

01:15:33.196 --> 01:15:34.136
It's got to be possible.

01:15:34.136 --> 01:15:34.196
What

01:15:34.196 --> 01:15:35.436
Mary Wanless: country
were you in at that point?

01:15:35.496 --> 01:15:38.996
Rupert Isaacson: Many I've always been
but between the UK and America mostly.

01:15:39.306 --> 01:15:43.736
And so then of course I tried dressage
lessons and ran into the same wall.

01:15:43.736 --> 01:15:48.456
Everyone runs into of, you know, utter
confusion on and realizing that the

01:15:48.486 --> 01:15:51.316
horses actually didn't know how to do
it and that they were putting me on.

01:15:51.376 --> 01:15:53.386
So it was all a moot point anyway.

01:15:53.786 --> 01:15:59.326
And then I, then I started asking, I asked
a few Professionals who I really trusted.

01:16:00.086 --> 01:16:02.096
What would you do in my shoes?

01:16:02.136 --> 01:16:04.266
And interestingly, I got the
same answer from three of

01:16:04.266 --> 01:16:05.656
them, which is go to Portugal.

01:16:06.196 --> 01:16:07.086
And I said, why there?

01:16:07.386 --> 01:16:10.406
And they said, because it's the last
place left where they still produce the

01:16:10.406 --> 01:16:12.176
dressage horse with the original purpose.

01:16:12.456 --> 01:16:13.296
And I said, well, what's that?

01:16:13.296 --> 01:16:13.966
And they said, war.

01:16:13.966 --> 01:16:15.386
And I said, but they're
not at war with anyone.

01:16:15.386 --> 01:16:16.856
They said, no Rupert, it's the bullfight.

01:16:17.236 --> 01:16:19.576
Portuguese bullfight almost
entirely on horseback.

01:16:19.606 --> 01:16:21.886
You're not trying to kill the
bull, you're dancing around it.

01:16:22.356 --> 01:16:25.236
If there's any hesitation between horse
and rider, they're dead in 10 seconds.

01:16:25.326 --> 01:16:30.256
So they train all their riders on
schoolmaster horses from day one.

01:16:30.646 --> 01:16:33.816
And they train the horses to
know everything on the ground

01:16:34.036 --> 01:16:35.256
before they put the rider on.

01:16:35.256 --> 01:16:36.536
I'm like, that makes perfect sense to me.

01:16:36.616 --> 01:16:39.116
So I went down there, found it was true.

01:16:39.146 --> 01:16:43.146
And then, of course, being on these
schoolmaster horses, I kept hearing

01:16:43.146 --> 01:16:46.153
this name, Valencia, Valencia, Valencia.

01:16:46.153 --> 01:16:52.501
And through that family, of course,
Nuno Olivera, who created that family,

01:16:53.501 --> 01:16:59.551
and then since then, through all the
you know, journey that I've had to do

01:16:59.551 --> 01:17:03.921
with this, the other great mentors of
that age coming up, such as Egon von

01:17:03.921 --> 01:17:07.261
Neindorf, and so on and so on, and you
have had a really similar trajectory,

01:17:07.261 --> 01:17:10.991
which I find massively interesting.

01:17:11.661 --> 01:17:13.271
And because you were, I think,

01:17:15.336 --> 01:17:21.106
Half a generation back or so,
you got to ride with some of the

01:17:21.106 --> 01:17:23.006
people that produced my mentors.

01:17:23.246 --> 01:17:27.396
You know, who produced Luis Valenza,
Von Neindorf, who produced a lot

01:17:27.396 --> 01:17:28.786
of the best riders here in Germany.

01:17:29.366 --> 01:17:32.216
Can you talk to us about
how you found them?

01:17:33.126 --> 01:17:35.296
Because back then, there
wasn't an internet.

01:17:35.676 --> 01:17:39.746
And, Dressage in the UK, I remember
growing up in the Humpfield in

01:17:39.746 --> 01:17:44.176
Leicestershire, people mistrusted
anything that was European.

01:17:44.386 --> 01:17:46.936
The hangover from World War
II was still very strong.

01:17:47.286 --> 01:17:49.626
We don't like what they
do over there, you know.

01:17:49.896 --> 01:17:51.846
There was kind of a bit of that attitude.

01:17:52.126 --> 01:17:57.526
So to find your way into that
world was not easy back then.

01:17:57.746 --> 01:17:59.006
How did you do that?

01:17:59.476 --> 01:17:59.776
That's a great question.

01:18:00.276 --> 01:18:01.531
Yeah, talk us through it.

01:18:02.071 --> 01:18:05.071
Mary Wanless: So, Dan, my
teacher who drove me to giving

01:18:05.071 --> 01:18:08.071
up, he had ridden with Nuno

01:18:08.072 --> 01:18:08.921
Rupert Isaacson: Oliveira,

01:18:09.201 --> 01:18:13.001
Mary Wanless: and then had what
was going to be his horse for the

01:18:13.001 --> 01:18:16.481
Olympics, who subsequently went
lame, with Egon von Leindorff.

01:18:16.481 --> 01:18:19.151
So I knew those names, and Were you

01:18:19.151 --> 01:18:21.211
Rupert Isaacson: aware of those names
before you went to work for Dan?

01:18:21.381 --> 01:18:22.151
Or did he introduce No, I

01:18:22.151 --> 01:18:22.771
Mary Wanless: don't think so.

01:18:22.771 --> 01:18:23.961
I might have been aware of Nuno.

01:18:23.962 --> 01:18:29.121
I wasn't aware of Egon von Leindorff,
but I was aware of Nuno Oliveira.

01:18:29.131 --> 01:18:32.341
I think, I don't know when his
first book came into English.

01:18:33.161 --> 01:18:36.971
That would be an interesting
one to know, but I think it was

01:18:36.981 --> 01:18:39.121
probably the 70s, early 70s.

01:18:39.231 --> 01:18:41.441
Rupert Isaacson: I would say the
early 70s probably, yeah, but even

01:18:41.441 --> 01:18:43.871
then only a fraction of the English
writing public would have read them.

01:18:44.931 --> 01:18:45.171
Yeah,

01:18:45.171 --> 01:18:46.831
Mary Wanless: well I had, so there was J.

01:18:46.831 --> 01:18:46.971
A.

01:18:46.971 --> 01:18:48.471
Allen, the bookshop in London.

01:18:48.651 --> 01:18:49.391
I remember J.

01:18:49.391 --> 01:18:49.401
A.

01:18:49.401 --> 01:18:49.511
Allen.

01:18:50.061 --> 01:18:51.501
I used to hang out in there.

01:18:51.701 --> 01:18:52.011
Rupert Isaacson: Me too.

01:18:52.311 --> 01:18:58.011
Mary Wanless: And I think I probably found
my first New Law of Error book in there.

01:18:58.121 --> 01:18:59.861
Rupert Isaacson: Ah,
that would make sense.

01:19:00.206 --> 01:19:05.036
Mary Wanless: I also found another
really important book by somebody Polish,

01:19:05.086 --> 01:19:07.226
I think, that was older than that.

01:19:07.236 --> 01:19:08.936
That gave me some really good clues.

01:19:09.706 --> 01:19:10.756
I can't remember the name of the guy.

01:19:10.936 --> 01:19:11.826
Not Podjasky.

01:19:12.206 --> 01:19:12.606
Sorry?

01:19:12.776 --> 01:19:13.906
Rupert Isaacson: Not Podjasky at the,

01:19:13.956 --> 01:19:14.416
Mary Wanless: No, no, no,

01:19:14.646 --> 01:19:14.776
Rupert Isaacson: no.

01:19:16.936 --> 01:19:18.156
Mary Wanless: So, I'd given up.

01:19:18.156 --> 01:19:19.116
I'd gone to London.

01:19:19.176 --> 01:19:20.866
I was coaching again.

01:19:20.986 --> 01:19:24.556
I'd done the San Francisco
Dancers Workshop.

01:19:25.026 --> 01:19:32.351
You know, I was trying to get my head
around What writing really was and

01:19:32.351 --> 01:19:34.601
somehow I got an address for Nuna Olivera.

01:19:34.711 --> 01:19:37.451
I don't know how I got the
address, who I got it through,

01:19:38.021 --> 01:19:38.051
Rupert Isaacson: but

01:19:38.461 --> 01:19:44.321
Mary Wanless: somehow I did and I wrote
and I said, I would like to come and

01:19:44.341 --> 01:19:47.671
his daughter, I believe, worked as
his secretary and spoke good enough

01:19:47.671 --> 01:19:49.151
English and wrote good enough English.

01:19:49.391 --> 01:19:53.231
So I had a booking, you know, I made
a booking and went for two weeks.

01:19:55.791 --> 01:19:57.191
Rupert Isaacson: That must
have been pretty life changing.

01:19:57.741 --> 01:19:58.061
Mary Wanless: Sorry?

01:19:58.301 --> 01:19:59.631
Rupert Isaacson: That must
have been pretty life changing.

01:20:00.341 --> 01:20:03.041
Mary Wanless: It was
it was a funny journey.

01:20:03.051 --> 01:20:04.511
It didn't go brilliantly well.

01:20:05.041 --> 01:20:09.901
On the day one, I rode the horse
at the back of the ride, and

01:20:10.981 --> 01:20:12.401
it really shook its head a lot.

01:20:13.901 --> 01:20:17.611
And I thought this, it was, maybe
it was a head shaker, you know,

01:20:17.611 --> 01:20:21.186
it was a bit pathological and
I kind of dealt okay with that.

01:20:23.076 --> 01:20:27.516
And Nuno asked about my background and I
talked about Dan and he remembered Dan.

01:20:28.066 --> 01:20:32.076
Then the next day I rode the horse
that was back but one of the ride.

01:20:33.006 --> 01:20:35.966
And as we walked up the hill to the
riding arena, it was clear to me that

01:20:35.966 --> 01:20:38.836
this horse was very old and pretty cronky.

01:20:40.076 --> 01:20:44.826
And my spirits just went,
Oh, I've graduated on to.

01:20:45.146 --> 01:20:46.796
The really old decrepit one.

01:20:47.836 --> 01:20:50.106
And I didn't do such a
great job on that horse.

01:20:50.106 --> 01:20:53.536
And at that point I was really hopeless
at the lateral work, which was one

01:20:53.536 --> 01:20:54.646
reason why I wanted to go there.

01:20:54.646 --> 01:20:57.476
Cause I knew it would be lateral
work, lateral work and natural

01:20:57.476 --> 01:20:59.116
work in walk and trot and,

01:21:01.456 --> 01:21:08.476
and after that, I didn't do terribly well,
and then we all got invited along with,

01:21:08.496 --> 01:21:12.196
you know, I guess to go to the school in.

01:21:12.282 --> 01:21:14.121
Is it Ericeira?

01:21:14.271 --> 01:21:19.271
Where there's a Portuguese,
maybe military school still.

01:21:19.571 --> 01:21:19.871
Rupert Isaacson: In Mafra.

01:21:20.151 --> 01:21:20.591
Mary Wanless: Mafra.

01:21:20.781 --> 01:21:21.391
It was in Mafra.

01:21:21.431 --> 01:21:22.451
We all got to go to Mafra.

01:21:23.781 --> 01:21:25.881
And the horse I rode, we all rode.

01:21:27.191 --> 01:21:31.211
And then I was in my familiar
territory on some five year old A&

01:21:31.211 --> 01:21:35.261
R the horse, you know, and everybody
said to me, Oh, you got the nice one.

01:21:35.261 --> 01:21:38.161
You got the And I just kind of
went, don't think that's true.

01:21:39.301 --> 01:21:40.621
But I knew what to do up here.

01:21:42.091 --> 01:21:43.511
And so that went really well.

01:21:44.711 --> 01:21:48.211
But the rest of the time I was
struggling and I didn't feel I got

01:21:48.441 --> 01:21:50.181
told anything that was very helpful.

01:21:51.401 --> 01:21:53.451
And actually got more help from

01:21:53.451 --> 01:21:54.411
Rupert Isaacson: Joao,

01:21:55.161 --> 01:21:58.321
Mary Wanless: I would say I got
more help from Joao Nuno's son

01:21:58.341 --> 01:21:59.651
than I did from Nuno himself.

01:22:01.401 --> 01:22:06.281
But somewhere there, did I
hear the name Luís Valencia?

01:22:06.321 --> 01:22:07.501
I'm not sure.

01:22:07.561 --> 01:22:11.501
But next time I went to Portugal,
I'd found out the right address for

01:22:11.531 --> 01:22:16.281
Luis and I wrote and I was able to
make a booking and I went there.

01:22:16.901 --> 01:22:21.371
And over the next few years, I probably
spent over three months in Portugal.

01:22:22.151 --> 01:22:23.911
Went quite a number of times.

01:22:24.711 --> 01:22:24.821
Yeah.

01:22:24.821 --> 01:22:25.941
Luis was delightful.

01:22:26.261 --> 01:22:26.861
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, he is.

01:22:26.931 --> 01:22:27.141
Yeah.

01:22:27.371 --> 01:22:30.041
Mary Wanless: And as long as
you could uncode four languages.

01:22:31.086 --> 01:22:34.746
So I think one of the frequently,
I remember the sentence shortened

01:22:34.756 --> 01:22:38.006
the escudos and Wechslen are gauche.

01:22:38.086 --> 01:22:38.186
Yes.

01:22:38.526 --> 01:22:42.736
Escudos being Portuguese, Wechslen
being German and gauche being French.

01:22:43.016 --> 01:22:43.146
Yes.

01:22:43.147 --> 01:22:43.881
You

01:22:43.881 --> 01:22:44.686
Rupert Isaacson: know, shortened

01:22:44.696 --> 01:22:46.076
Mary Wanless: the being English.

01:22:46.256 --> 01:22:46.666
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:22:48.096 --> 01:22:53.656
If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:22:53.666 --> 01:22:58.656
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:22:59.121 --> 01:23:00.431
of dressage training.

01:23:00.471 --> 01:23:09.041
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:23:09.111 --> 01:23:15.391
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:23:15.401 --> 01:23:21.921
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:23:21.971 --> 01:23:24.741
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:23:24.801 --> 01:23:25.541
Intrigued?

01:23:25.741 --> 01:23:26.601
Like to know more?

01:23:27.471 --> 01:23:30.301
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:23:32.001 --> 01:23:33.691
Check out the free introduction course.

01:23:34.251 --> 01:23:34.771
Take it from there.

01:23:35.275 --> 01:23:37.405
Mary Wanless: So if you
could decode four languages.

01:23:37.745 --> 01:23:41.255
You could kind of get some help
and, and we did work on the

01:23:41.255 --> 01:23:42.755
ground too, which was great.

01:23:43.165 --> 01:23:47.145
And, and I felt like I got to ride some
nice horses, some interesting horses.

01:23:47.645 --> 01:23:53.065
I remember one day, I think they were
desperate for horses and I got to ride

01:23:53.065 --> 01:23:54.705
the horse that was the Capriol horse.

01:23:54.765 --> 01:23:58.165
And I knew this thing hadn't been out
of its stable for quite a few days.

01:23:59.185 --> 01:24:01.445
So I'm thinking, okay, here we go.

01:24:01.446 --> 01:24:04.065
Back to the eventing days.

01:24:04.065 --> 01:24:04.315
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:24:04.315 --> 01:24:04.545
Yep.

01:24:05.015 --> 01:24:07.315
Mary Wanless: And it grabbed the
right rein like there's no tomorrow.

01:24:07.715 --> 01:24:11.025
And I managed, during the course
of the thing, to kind of undo

01:24:11.025 --> 01:24:12.305
that and get it a lot straighter.

01:24:12.595 --> 01:24:16.065
And I can remember all the young
guys there going, Merida de Capriola!

01:24:16.145 --> 01:24:17.255
Merida de Capriola!

01:24:17.265 --> 01:24:18.825
I thought, oh God, this is good, isn't it?

01:24:19.615 --> 01:24:21.065
And then we got to Piaf.

01:24:21.935 --> 01:24:26.625
And we got to Piaf, and the horse stood
up on its back legs, and I did what

01:24:26.645 --> 01:24:29.685
English people did, which was lean
forward and put my hands round its neck.

01:24:29.855 --> 01:24:32.725
And it came back down again, and
Louis looked me in the eye and said,

01:24:33.465 --> 01:24:35.805
I think we know Capriole today.

01:24:40.235 --> 01:24:41.055
Rupert Isaacson: He's a sweet man.

01:24:41.765 --> 01:24:42.885
Mary Wanless: He's a very sweet man.

01:24:43.225 --> 01:24:47.105
So I felt like I was kind of working
things out, getting to learn the work

01:24:47.105 --> 01:24:50.895
on the ground, working things out from
the horses, getting a few helpful hints.

01:24:51.765 --> 01:24:52.875
And that's about as good as it ever got.

01:24:55.115 --> 01:24:55.675
Yeah.

01:24:56.145 --> 01:25:01.235
With Egon von Neindorf when I went
there, I spoke no German, he spoke

01:25:01.235 --> 01:25:03.305
no English, but he was charming.

01:25:04.145 --> 01:25:06.705
I tried to collect Jawohl Frau Mary.

01:25:08.470 --> 01:25:10.900
That was my, that was when I
realized what I had to do was

01:25:10.900 --> 01:25:12.550
try and collect Yavor Fraumeri.

01:25:12.830 --> 01:25:16.440
My verse, my, there were maybe
four of us in the arena at a time.

01:25:17.470 --> 01:25:21.680
And my worst moment was when he told
everybody to halt and I didn't understand

01:25:21.680 --> 01:25:24.900
and I'm riding a stallion and it sort
of marches its way into sticking its

01:25:25.070 --> 01:25:27.130
nose up the bum of the horse in front.

01:25:27.490 --> 01:25:27.915
Always a good bummer.

01:25:27.915 --> 01:25:29.080
That was my worst moment there.

01:25:32.920 --> 01:25:34.540
But it was lovely to ride the horses.

01:25:34.540 --> 01:25:37.320
There were some really nice horses
that I learned a lot from there.

01:25:37.990 --> 01:25:42.600
So I think it was the situation
of riding some nicer horses

01:25:45.110 --> 01:25:48.700
in a situation where things go slowly
enough that you can work things out,

01:25:53.210 --> 01:25:54.710
learning to do the work on the ground

01:25:56.970 --> 01:25:58.620
and just enjoying Portugal.

01:25:58.620 --> 01:25:59.690
I still love Portugal.

01:26:00.470 --> 01:26:00.740
Yeah,

01:26:01.050 --> 01:26:01.580
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

01:26:01.580 --> 01:26:02.020
Me, too.

01:26:02.680 --> 01:26:06.040
It's I stood in that arena with Luis.

01:26:07.620 --> 01:26:10.920
Writing everything down and filming
everything and asking everything I could

01:26:11.360 --> 01:26:18.710
think of to ask and I realized oh my gosh
It's a complete system and What you one

01:26:18.710 --> 01:26:23.220
needed to do was learn the system by which
the horse was built not the riding Because

01:26:23.220 --> 01:26:27.470
then the riding would come as a result
of having built this horse It was to some

01:26:27.470 --> 01:26:28.930
degree almost independent of the rider.

01:26:29.110 --> 01:26:34.680
Oh my gosh, that's gold and for us that
was the game changer, you know with

01:26:34.720 --> 01:26:44.100
with horse by method and so on but I've
seen so many riders, unfortunately,

01:26:45.080 --> 01:26:49.710
hit the glass ceiling, not because
they can't get through it, but because

01:26:49.740 --> 01:26:52.870
the only set of tools is the riding.

01:26:53.170 --> 01:26:58.705
And it's just not enough, you know, if
one wants to get through that thing into

01:26:58.705 --> 01:27:01.255
Narnia there's these other tools as well.

01:27:01.255 --> 01:27:07.115
And so you going and looking at
how these guys were building these

01:27:07.115 --> 01:27:12.285
horses even if in certain cases
you maybe came away with less, i.

01:27:12.295 --> 01:27:12.305
e.

01:27:12.305 --> 01:27:17.255
with Nuno, or with more, perhaps by the
time you got to Von Neindorf too, you had

01:27:17.485 --> 01:27:24.355
some inkling of how this old 18th century
system was sort of put together because

01:27:24.355 --> 01:27:27.085
you'd been seeing it and seeing it and
seeing it, and then being one of the first

01:27:27.085 --> 01:27:32.855
people to bring this kind of systematic
approach back to the uk, I think has, I

01:27:32.855 --> 01:27:40.715
think a lot of UK writers owe you a debt
for bringing that systematized way of

01:27:40.985 --> 01:27:45.005
doing things rather than get on and kick.

01:27:45.005 --> 01:27:45.095
Yes.

01:27:46.205 --> 01:27:46.955
Which is what we all grow.

01:27:46.955 --> 01:27:47.045
You've

01:27:47.045 --> 01:27:48.275
Mary Wanless: gotta go
beyond, get on and kick.

01:27:48.275 --> 01:27:48.755
You've gotta go

01:27:48.755 --> 01:27:50.585
Rupert Isaacson: beyond get on, and
you gotta go beyond kick and pull.

01:27:50.585 --> 01:27:50.675
Yes.

01:27:50.675 --> 01:27:50.765
And,

01:27:50.895 --> 01:27:55.525
You've also got to see that your instruct
that your mentor can actually produce

01:27:55.525 --> 01:28:00.245
these horses and can put you on them
You know when I whenever I'm asked to

01:28:00.245 --> 01:28:05.645
give it is advice to someone if they
are looking for dressage Instructors say

01:28:05.645 --> 01:28:06.935
there's actually there's two questions.

01:28:06.935 --> 01:28:10.275
You always need to ask one is
how did you teach your horse?

01:28:10.695 --> 01:28:17.620
Piaf and it's got to be an answer that you
can kind of get Not some esoteric wall of

01:28:18.530 --> 01:28:23.080
words, but I put the leg, hind leg here
and then I put the hind leg here and then

01:28:23.080 --> 01:28:25.400
I straighten him and it happens like that.

01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:28.240
And can, the second part of the
question is the most important.

01:28:28.500 --> 01:28:29.780
Can I ride him?

01:28:30.730 --> 01:28:34.860
And if the answer is no, well,
then that person has not produced

01:28:35.320 --> 01:28:39.961
a universal horse that is happy to
show you for 15 minutes what to do.

01:28:39.961 --> 01:28:41.515
I think the answer can

01:28:41.515 --> 01:28:43.380
Mary Wanless: be no, until I've seen you.

01:28:44.720 --> 01:28:45.090
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:28:45.350 --> 01:28:45.770
Mary Wanless: Or something else.

01:28:46.305 --> 01:28:46.625
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:28:47.435 --> 01:28:51.795
Mary Wanless: because there are
certainly people and people doing stuff.

01:28:51.795 --> 01:28:53.335
I wouldn't want to subject my horse to

01:28:53.595 --> 01:28:57.025
Rupert Isaacson: well No, but but for
example with us We've got say here in

01:28:57.025 --> 01:29:01.805
Germany seven schoolmaster horses pretty
much anybody could come but I know the

01:29:01.815 --> 01:29:08.295
tolerance level of each horse and So if
we're showing people say, okay, PF And

01:29:08.295 --> 01:29:11.685
that would be on day one so that you
can feel in your body just what it is

01:29:12.475 --> 01:29:16.445
how long are you doing that for you're
doing that for a few minutes and You

01:29:16.495 --> 01:29:19.865
are choreographing it and you're right
there at the shoulder and you help

01:29:19.865 --> 01:29:22.935
everything You don't just sort of stand
in the center there and say ride go

01:29:22.935 --> 01:29:26.495
round and rounder And no, I would never
do that to my horse and my horse would

01:29:26.890 --> 01:29:28.460
put up its middle finger at me if I did.

01:29:28.900 --> 01:29:31.640
But it doesn't have to be
done that way, and so it's

01:29:31.640 --> 01:29:33.120
basically assisted in handwork.

01:29:34.070 --> 01:29:37.280
That assisted in handwork creates
a sort of generosity in the horse.

01:29:37.700 --> 01:29:40.975
And of course we need that from the horse
when we're working with our Clientele

01:29:40.985 --> 01:29:45.125
with our autistic kids and so on they're
going to sit on that same horse in Piaf

01:29:45.125 --> 01:29:48.635
and Passage And that horse is going to
be very happy to give that up because

01:29:48.635 --> 01:29:50.065
for them It's an easy thing to do

01:29:50.435 --> 01:29:52.965
Mary Wanless: and I mean that's
really impressive And I think

01:29:53.055 --> 01:29:56.545
there'd be hardly anywhere in the
world where that happens, you know

01:29:56.565 --> 01:29:59.445
Maybe that is a lot of your legacy.

01:30:00.325 --> 01:30:04.445
I mean Nuno Trained everything
every horse in Nuno school have

01:30:04.445 --> 01:30:05.985
been trained to Grand Prix by him.

01:30:06.335 --> 01:30:06.745
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm

01:30:06.965 --> 01:30:09.655
Mary Wanless: Then he put the horse in the
school and he never ever rode it again.

01:30:11.475 --> 01:30:14.785
So the inevitable death downhill happened.

01:30:15.105 --> 01:30:15.405
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:30:15.435 --> 01:30:16.645
And then it's always the rider's fault.

01:30:16.865 --> 01:30:18.395
Mary Wanless: And then you've got
the horses at the front of the

01:30:18.395 --> 01:30:20.535
ride, which are the better horses
and the horses at the back of the

01:30:20.535 --> 01:30:21.845
ride that are really losing it.

01:30:22.725 --> 01:30:23.465
And

01:30:24.765 --> 01:30:26.795
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, no, sadly,
that's the same old punitive

01:30:26.815 --> 01:30:29.265
thing just with more education.

01:30:29.335 --> 01:30:32.335
And, you know, a lot of people
I know who knew, knew, know,

01:30:32.335 --> 01:30:33.275
you know, said what he was.

01:30:34.050 --> 01:30:37.480
You know, a difficult character, a
genius, brilliant, blah, blah, blah.

01:30:37.480 --> 01:30:41.320
But one of the things I love about
Luis is that he never does that.

01:30:42.070 --> 01:30:43.150
Mary Wanless: No, he is.

01:30:43.180 --> 01:30:45.420
He is a generous and delightful soul.

01:30:45.430 --> 01:30:46.920
There's no two ways about that.

01:30:47.230 --> 01:30:48.830
Rupert Isaacson: And he'll
set you up for success.

01:30:49.130 --> 01:30:53.430
The reason we do the thing with,
OK, day one, put you on Piaf

01:30:54.690 --> 01:30:57.680
is very simple outside of the
therapeutic model, which is, of

01:30:57.680 --> 01:30:59.270
course, we're doing it for oxytocin.

01:31:00.530 --> 01:31:05.080
But on the.

01:31:05.985 --> 01:31:08.215
One of the first pages of La Guérinnaise.

01:31:08.645 --> 01:31:12.215
You know, Cavalerie, which is
supposedly what we're all trying to do.

01:31:12.785 --> 01:31:17.515
And on, I think, page three of Gustave
Steinbrecht, they say, Take your

01:31:17.545 --> 01:31:23.735
beginner rider, and on the first day,
put them on your best horse, in Piaf.

01:31:24.245 --> 01:31:27.215
So that they can feel in
their body how it should feel.

01:31:27.675 --> 01:31:30.415
And then little by little over the
coming years, you will bring them

01:31:30.415 --> 01:31:31.835
up to the level of that horse.

01:31:32.045 --> 01:31:36.215
And that's just struck me as so much
common sense, because if you think

01:31:36.225 --> 01:31:38.445
about it, when we're learning to
jump, you don't put someone on a horse

01:31:38.445 --> 01:31:39.525
that's never jumped before, right?

01:31:39.555 --> 01:31:41.865
You don't, you don't, you put them
on the best schoolmaster horse you

01:31:41.865 --> 01:31:43.595
can, because it's life or death.

01:31:44.265 --> 01:31:47.955
But in dressage and flatwork,
we have this idea that you're

01:31:47.955 --> 01:31:53.105
supposed to kind of hammer at it
somewhat blindly, failing a lot.

01:31:53.815 --> 01:31:55.815
Until somehow you get it.

01:31:56.805 --> 01:31:59.755
I don't think that's much fun for the
horse I don't think that's much fun

01:31:59.755 --> 01:32:01.915
for the rider and it's inefficient.

01:32:01.965 --> 01:32:07.665
It just doesn't have to be that shit But
one needs to be shown that other way and

01:32:07.785 --> 01:32:12.205
it was Luis who showed me that, you know
So he showed me create your horse in

01:32:12.205 --> 01:32:18.985
the piaf on the ground put your rider on
and off you go But I think by the time I

01:32:18.985 --> 01:32:21.095
was lucky enough to be working with him.

01:32:21.995 --> 01:32:28.665
He had systemized it Perhaps even more
than he had back in the earlier days and I

01:32:28.665 --> 01:32:30.665
definitely profited from that, you know So

01:32:30.725 --> 01:32:33.965
Mary Wanless: something that might
well be true, but I mean that's it's

01:32:33.965 --> 01:32:40.900
interesting I mean that would happen to
hardly anybody in the horse world it As

01:32:40.900 --> 01:32:44.180
in, getting to sit on Piaf on day one.

01:32:44.370 --> 01:32:46.280
Rupert Isaacson: It's how
we teach all our riders.

01:32:46.700 --> 01:32:47.440
Yes, it

01:32:47.440 --> 01:32:48.120
Mary Wanless: absolutely is.

01:32:48.120 --> 01:32:51.570
If you come back to Stephen Covey and
the 7 Habits of Highly Effective Riders,

01:32:51.570 --> 01:32:53.300
this is to begin with the end in mind.

01:32:53.820 --> 01:32:54.130
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:32:54.650 --> 01:32:55.080
Mary Wanless: Yeah?

01:32:55.490 --> 01:32:59.970
So if you've had a sense of that, and
in Piaf it's not so hard to sit, is it?

01:33:00.180 --> 01:33:00.270
Absolutely.

01:33:00.590 --> 01:33:01.650
It's not like it's throwing you around.

01:33:01.660 --> 01:33:03.450
There aren't big forces
throwing you around.

01:33:04.170 --> 01:33:08.550
And if you're not getting in your knickers
in a twist and trying to generate it

01:33:08.550 --> 01:33:12.905
and start wiggling and doing all the
things that people do, then you just

01:33:12.905 --> 01:33:14.183
Because the horse is just going to

01:33:14.183 --> 01:33:16.450
Rupert Isaacson: do it because we're on
the ground making it happen and all we

01:33:16.450 --> 01:33:19.480
need to say is sit still, relax and smile.

01:33:20.020 --> 01:33:20.410
Mary Wanless: Yes.

01:33:20.870 --> 01:33:21.900
Rupert Isaacson: And just enjoy this.

01:33:22.450 --> 01:33:25.810
This, back to where we began with this,
and I think this is why it's such a

01:33:26.310 --> 01:33:31.960
great conversation for Equine Assisted
work is, it's this element of suffering

01:33:33.110 --> 01:33:38.050
that things are not worth having unless
you suffer, and And therefore creating

01:33:38.050 --> 01:33:43.020
suffering where suffering does not have
to be, whether it's in your kid as a

01:33:43.020 --> 01:33:47.560
Christian scientist mum, or, you know, and
as you say, to the point of, well, okay,

01:33:47.560 --> 01:33:53.120
maybe you can dance if it's a suffering
enough form of dance, as you said, she'd

01:33:53.120 --> 01:33:55.480
known how much suffering you were going
to have to go through with writing.

01:33:55.650 --> 01:33:58.840
She might well have subsidized it.

01:33:58.840 --> 01:33:59.530
Ironically.

01:33:59.920 --> 01:34:05.180
And, you know, punitive thing
has done to us as a culture.

01:34:05.180 --> 01:34:08.170
It's blah, you know,
doesn't have to be that way.

01:34:08.170 --> 01:34:12.560
Mary Wanless: And, you know, it
needs explicit how to information.

01:34:13.710 --> 01:34:17.400
And, and, and, and you're, Justin
and Piaf on day one is, is putting

01:34:17.400 --> 01:34:21.280
some information into the nervous
system of this is your end goal.

01:34:21.920 --> 01:34:22.870
And you can't

01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:25.790
Rupert Isaacson: do this because
the, here you are doing it.

01:34:26.430 --> 01:34:26.840
Okay.

01:34:26.840 --> 01:34:28.940
I'm creating it for
you, but I won't always.

01:34:29.425 --> 01:34:29.885
Mary Wanless: Yeah,

01:34:30.095 --> 01:34:32.965
Rupert Isaacson: this is now
within your remit of experience.

01:34:34.165 --> 01:34:35.535
It's not just in your imagination.

01:34:36.155 --> 01:34:36.285
Yes

01:34:38.650 --> 01:34:41.550
These things have to happen for
all sorts of life skills, right?

01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:46.220
You know, you you you mentioned
that you're very modest you

01:34:46.220 --> 01:34:48.760
saying well I don't know so much
about the equine assisted thing.

01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:55.240
And I think you've talked us through
really really solid Models, I'll just

01:34:55.920 --> 01:35:00.510
recap what you've been saying So you
were brought up with some suffering

01:35:00.510 --> 01:35:04.030
you found that horses were a way out of
suffering you knew this instinctively

01:35:04.220 --> 01:35:08.190
But then like many riders you found
actually When you add monkeys who are

01:35:08.190 --> 01:35:14.410
suffering to the thing, they bring their
suffering, sadly, to the thing that

01:35:14.410 --> 01:35:16.720
one is looking to not suffer with, i.

01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:16.810
e.

01:35:16.810 --> 01:35:17.370
horses.

01:35:17.490 --> 01:35:20.090
What to do about that profound despair?

01:35:20.090 --> 01:35:24.540
There you are also in grief, you lose
your parents at this very young age.

01:35:24.540 --> 01:35:26.040
You're lost, you've got nowhere to go.

01:35:26.170 --> 01:35:27.440
You end up working with youth.

01:35:28.150 --> 01:35:32.700
And then you discover dance as well,
and what is the joy within that?

01:35:32.700 --> 01:35:37.180
And also embodiment, and then you start
to bring that to people who are suffering.

01:35:37.680 --> 01:35:41.660
With riding and help unlock the suffering.

01:35:42.630 --> 01:35:45.400
Mary, you've been doing equine
assisted work your whole life.

01:35:45.620 --> 01:35:47.610
Mary Wanless: Yes, I mean,
you could certainly say that.

01:35:48.130 --> 01:35:52.500
And it is true that the work
I teach is life changing.

01:35:52.500 --> 01:35:56.480
For a lot of riders, it is life changing.

01:35:56.760 --> 01:35:59.795
And it is certainly life changing
for the coaches who get involved.

01:36:00.555 --> 01:36:06.915
And just being able to learn it step by
step and have it be more explicit and have

01:36:06.915 --> 01:36:10.955
a guide on the journey, you know, like
between you, you have two perspectives.

01:36:10.955 --> 01:36:15.545
You have the rider's internal perspective,
what's going on in their body, their mind.

01:36:15.855 --> 01:36:18.605
You have the coach's external viewpoint.

01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:22.610
and how they're thinking about
it and communicating about it.

01:36:23.010 --> 01:36:27.080
And if you put those together to
solve a problem, then that's very

01:36:27.080 --> 01:36:31.460
different to, I tell you what to
do and you do your best to do it.

01:36:31.550 --> 01:36:33.820
I haven't given you good
information, but do it anyway.

01:36:34.070 --> 01:36:34.530
Now.

01:36:34.730 --> 01:36:37.100
Rupert Isaacson: And I can't actually
get up on your horse and do it for you

01:36:37.100 --> 01:36:39.890
and show you because I've just learned
to say I haven't really learned to do it.

01:36:39.940 --> 01:36:40.280
Mary Wanless: Yes.

01:36:40.390 --> 01:36:43.590
Rupert Isaacson: And it's easier to blame
you than to admit that and go and learn.

01:36:43.655 --> 01:36:48.195
Mary Wanless: And, and having patterns
in your neurology and really trying to

01:36:48.205 --> 01:36:54.045
bridge the gap between that neurological
knowing and knowing in language.

01:36:55.515 --> 01:37:00.315
If I was The gap between language and
experience is such an interesting one.

01:37:00.345 --> 01:37:03.375
NLP really got me interested in that.

01:37:03.385 --> 01:37:03.715
Yeah.

01:37:03.835 --> 01:37:04.795
The gap between

01:37:04.875 --> 01:37:05.885
Rupert Isaacson: language and experience.

01:37:06.875 --> 01:37:08.095
Mary Wanless: Or experience and language.

01:37:09.400 --> 01:37:16.050
Yeah, yeah, ways to find language
to cross that gap and as well find,

01:37:16.220 --> 01:37:19.080
you know, sitting on a more trained
horse and having the experience

01:37:19.080 --> 01:37:21.340
of X can help to cross that gap.

01:37:23.130 --> 01:37:25.290
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so
now we move to the present.

01:37:26.100 --> 01:37:29.950
You are, you know, one of the people
who sits on the right hand of God

01:37:29.950 --> 01:37:35.870
of the, you know, equestrian world
in the UK and internationally now

01:37:35.870 --> 01:37:42.015
and you've Arrive there through
this process of seeking answers to

01:37:42.015 --> 01:37:47.415
questions, answers to suffering, looking
for the right mentors, and so on.

01:37:48.005 --> 01:37:50.345
Now, there you are.

01:37:51.645 --> 01:37:58.125
If somebody wants to engage with Ride
With Your Mind, and Mary Wanless stuff,

01:38:00.385 --> 01:38:01.565
how should they begin?

01:38:03.145 --> 01:38:04.805
What are they going to learn?

01:38:05.665 --> 01:38:09.485
You might think, well that's obvious
given the conversation we have, but

01:38:09.485 --> 01:38:11.375
actually it's not necessarily obvious.

01:38:11.625 --> 01:38:15.195
If someone, so for example, I might
now after this conversation with

01:38:15.195 --> 01:38:18.735
you, say to all our horse boy people,
particularly in the UK, Why don't

01:38:18.735 --> 01:38:20.925
you go on a Mary Wanless course?

01:38:20.945 --> 01:38:23.875
It's going to open up some new
ways of thinking, it's going to

01:38:23.875 --> 01:38:26.565
open up some new ways of looking
at things, it's going to, there's

01:38:26.565 --> 01:38:27.785
going to be all sorts of parallels.

01:38:28.165 --> 01:38:30.035
We're going to come away
with definitely a toolkit.

01:38:30.125 --> 01:38:32.065
I will totally come on
one of your courses.

01:38:32.415 --> 01:38:33.145
What other?

01:38:34.945 --> 01:38:36.645
You start with somebody here.

01:38:36.795 --> 01:38:38.505
You take them through a journey.

01:38:38.865 --> 01:38:41.835
Ideally, let's say they stick
with you for a bit Or with

01:38:41.835 --> 01:38:42.945
one of your people for a bit.

01:38:43.275 --> 01:38:45.895
You take them to a journey, where?

01:38:46.645 --> 01:38:47.775
And what's that midpoint?

01:38:47.775 --> 01:38:51.535
So what's the beginning, the middle
and the end of your programme

01:38:51.535 --> 01:38:52.495
and how do you get them there?

01:38:53.945 --> 01:38:58.935
Mary Wanless: The beginning would be
being on, usually it's their horse, I

01:38:58.955 --> 01:39:00.385
don't have school horses any longer.

01:39:00.595 --> 01:39:02.035
Usually it's somebody's horse.

01:39:02.525 --> 01:39:04.955
They might have begged, borrowed
or stolen a horse, but I watched

01:39:04.955 --> 01:39:05.915
somebody for a little while.

01:39:09.760 --> 01:39:13.060
See what my priorities are, but
you know, the, the ABCs of good

01:39:13.070 --> 01:39:14.590
biomechanics stay the same.

01:39:14.780 --> 01:39:15.350
Rupert Isaacson: Which are?

01:39:16.610 --> 01:39:17.700
Mary Wanless: How you line up your body.

01:39:18.400 --> 01:39:18.810
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:18.930 --> 01:39:19.570
Mary Wanless: Shoulder, hip, heel.

01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:22.030
How you support your body weight.

01:39:23.540 --> 01:39:25.250
That means the thigh works as a lever.

01:39:25.510 --> 01:39:27.850
The thigh is on the saddle and
the thigh works as a lever.

01:39:29.260 --> 01:39:31.470
How the foot gets to
just rest and not press.

01:39:33.095 --> 01:39:34.925
and how you get to bear down and breathe.

01:39:36.735 --> 01:39:39.615
Those are the initial kind of things.

01:39:40.125 --> 01:39:43.995
And doing that often changes
the rider and the horse.

01:39:44.635 --> 01:39:47.485
You know, we're halfway through the first
lesson and it's dramatically different.

01:39:47.695 --> 01:39:48.015
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:49.190 --> 01:39:52.410
Mary Wanless: And if it's hard work,
it'll be because it's hard work to sell to

01:39:52.410 --> 01:39:54.640
somebody the idea of doing it different.

01:39:54.940 --> 01:39:57.940
You know, yes, but my other teacher
said, yes, but I've always done this.

01:39:57.940 --> 01:39:59.650
Yes, but surely that can't be right.

01:40:00.270 --> 01:40:02.300
You know, if it's hard work,
that's why it's hard work.

01:40:02.710 --> 01:40:05.360
If somebody's willing to play
with me, it's not hard work

01:40:05.520 --> 01:40:06.740
at all, from my perspective.

01:40:07.290 --> 01:40:08.610
And it's a lot more fun from theirs.

01:40:08.880 --> 01:40:11.190
Rupert Isaacson: And do they
find it, as long as they're not

01:40:11.200 --> 01:40:13.890
mentally resisting, it's actually
surprisingly easy and accessible?

01:40:14.390 --> 01:40:15.520
Mary Wanless: It's very accessible.

01:40:16.150 --> 01:40:16.950
It's doable.

01:40:16.950 --> 01:40:17.990
It's hard to maintain.

01:40:18.040 --> 01:40:20.880
There's always a pull
back into old habits.

01:40:21.760 --> 01:40:23.630
There's always a pull
back into old habits.

01:40:24.010 --> 01:40:27.010
So people start to get the
idea that all you do is go,

01:40:27.070 --> 01:40:29.440
Oh, lost it again and redo it.

01:40:29.560 --> 01:40:30.750
Oh, lost it again.

01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:33.060
Rupert Isaacson: Not to panic,
not to tense up, not to try and

01:40:33.460 --> 01:40:33.970
Mary Wanless: bust your way.

01:40:33.970 --> 01:40:36.550
And every time that happens,
they're changing them.

01:40:37.425 --> 01:40:39.695
pretty soon get to feel
how that changes the horse.

01:40:41.135 --> 01:40:42.825
So that's kind of a beginning point.

01:40:43.915 --> 01:40:48.625
And, and we get people doing a good
job in walk, walk, halt, rising trot

01:40:48.625 --> 01:40:51.625
mechanism that gives a kind of baseline.

01:40:52.605 --> 01:40:56.615
They're then sane and safe and
sensible in some areas, we hope.

01:40:57.795 --> 01:41:01.035
And it's, it's how to do what
you have to do to take away the

01:41:01.035 --> 01:41:02.405
temptation to pull on the reins.

01:41:03.920 --> 01:41:04.180
Yeah.

01:41:04.230 --> 01:41:05.200
So you're basically getting people out

01:41:05.200 --> 01:41:06.000
Rupert Isaacson: of kick and pull.

01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:06.200
Yes,

01:41:06.200 --> 01:41:07.950
Mary Wanless: we're getting
them out of kick and pull.

01:41:10.140 --> 01:41:14.560
Then in the mid stages of this, it's
learning to do it going faster and

01:41:14.570 --> 01:41:19.410
do it during transitions and just
peeling away patterns, peeling away

01:41:19.410 --> 01:41:25.290
patterns, both rider patterns and
horse patterns, and trying to get a

01:41:25.290 --> 01:41:28.630
more wholesome interaction and ways of
talking about that and understanding

01:41:28.630 --> 01:41:33.910
it and turning change into bite sized
chunks, what I call next step fixes.

01:41:33.910 --> 01:41:34.745
Mm hmm.

01:41:37.365 --> 01:41:40.495
and really getting the rider doing
what I call riding on interface,

01:41:40.525 --> 01:41:45.275
which would be the rider discovering
for themselves the cause effect

01:41:45.275 --> 01:41:47.215
rules of the rider horse interaction.

01:41:47.225 --> 01:41:49.025
So kind of when I do A, the horse does B.

01:41:49.025 --> 01:41:51.485
When I do C, the horse
does D and that's reliable.

01:41:52.935 --> 01:41:54.515
And if the horse does X, I do Y.

01:41:55.185 --> 01:41:57.875
Shoots out from underneath me, I
lean back and pull on the reins.

01:41:58.835 --> 01:42:00.475
I support my body weight better.

01:42:00.645 --> 01:42:04.655
It comes up through his back,
all these kinds of things.

01:42:04.665 --> 01:42:06.095
So, so there are rules.

01:42:06.455 --> 01:42:10.105
You know, my first sense as a
physicist, there have to be rules

01:42:10.115 --> 01:42:13.065
of cause and effect, there has to be
a science under the art, there is.

01:42:13.915 --> 01:42:18.935
is well hidden, but it's there and
talented elite riders stumble across

01:42:18.935 --> 01:42:20.895
it by magic, but can't talk about it.

01:42:23.155 --> 01:42:27.695
And as that process goes on, I don't
know that there's an end, but it becomes

01:42:28.075 --> 01:42:33.125
more that I fix something in me and feel
how that fixes in the horse to where

01:42:33.125 --> 01:42:38.815
you can go, Oh, my horse needs more
X and fix you in a way that changes.

01:42:40.415 --> 01:42:42.875
The horse, right?

01:42:42.885 --> 01:42:48.405
So it can become, it's, it's being
able to feel and sense your way

01:42:48.415 --> 01:42:51.815
into the entirety of your body and
the entirety of your horse's body.

01:42:56.155 --> 01:43:01.565
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have exercises
psychologically and emotionally

01:43:02.875 --> 01:43:06.865
for accessing away from the horse,
the thing we're trying to get to

01:43:06.885 --> 01:43:08.765
on the horse, which is joy, right?

01:43:08.815 --> 01:43:13.015
The only reason any of us ever got on
a horse was because we thought it might

01:43:13.015 --> 01:43:15.995
make us feel better or good or something.

01:43:16.555 --> 01:43:19.465
Very rarely did any of us get
on a horse because we actually

01:43:19.465 --> 01:43:20.985
needed to ride to Edinburgh.

01:43:21.545 --> 01:43:25.375
You know, there was a time in life when
that was going on, but not anymore.

01:43:25.815 --> 01:43:32.495
So, we, we, everyone who gets involved
with horses is coming in for joy.

01:43:33.235 --> 01:43:35.255
We know then that can get lost.

01:43:37.025 --> 01:43:41.185
Through, obviously, dance, NLP, the
work you've done with Feldenkrais,

01:43:41.415 --> 01:43:42.525
psychotherapy, and so on.

01:43:42.915 --> 01:43:45.445
These are all, of course, ameliorative.

01:43:46.510 --> 01:43:49.330
Although dance actually can be just
very joyfully expressive of that.

01:43:50.620 --> 01:44:01.110
Do you actively try to help people just
plain old access joy and then say okay

01:44:01.110 --> 01:44:04.580
now you've got that thing can we bring
that thing into the saddle with you?

01:44:05.570 --> 01:44:08.770
Mary Wanless: I would say it starts
more in the saddle with that.

01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:09.400
Okay.

01:44:09.400 --> 01:44:11.630
What I'm trying to get
people to access is flow.

01:44:12.160 --> 01:44:12.660
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:44:12.725 --> 01:44:13.265
Definitely joy.

01:44:13.265 --> 01:44:13.685
Yeah, so

01:44:14.315 --> 01:44:16.925
Mary Wanless: joy is a subset of flow.

01:44:17.135 --> 01:44:18.260
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm . I would agree.

01:44:18.360 --> 01:44:21.305
Mary Wanless: And flow is the
state where you're totally absorbed

01:44:21.305 --> 01:44:24.095
in a task you're doing, you're
having no extraneous thoughts.

01:44:24.245 --> 01:44:30.185
Mm-hmm . Time is going by, you
may be unaware of time, and my

01:44:30.185 --> 01:44:34.205
aim when I go in a writing arena
is to get myself into that state.

01:44:34.210 --> 01:44:34.500
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:44:34.805 --> 01:44:35.105
Mm-hmm.

01:44:35.685 --> 01:44:37.845
Mary Wanless: To help the
rider get into that state.

01:44:37.850 --> 01:44:37.900
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm

01:44:39.035 --> 01:44:42.445
. 
Mary Wanless: To, this is maybe sticking
my neck out anthropomorphically, but

01:44:42.455 --> 01:44:43.755
to get the horse into that state.

01:44:44.275 --> 01:44:45.505
Rupert Isaacson: Or at least
have that intention, yeah.

01:44:45.505 --> 01:44:45.695
Yeah,

01:44:46.115 --> 01:44:48.665
Mary Wanless: so that's my intention
when I go in a riding arena.

01:44:49.115 --> 01:44:54.275
And I think everybody's greatest joy in
life actually comes from being in flow.

01:44:54.615 --> 01:44:56.345
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I would
say, I'd say that's pretty true.

01:44:57.205 --> 01:45:00.145
You must be working with
a lot of instructors too.

01:45:00.595 --> 01:45:00.785
Yes.

01:45:00.795 --> 01:45:06.075
What's your mechanism with them
to help them access that sense of

01:45:06.075 --> 01:45:08.775
flow and also to prioritize flow?

01:45:10.285 --> 01:45:11.365
Mary Wanless: I teach them what flow is,

01:45:11.365 --> 01:45:12.255
Rupert Isaacson: you

01:45:12.255 --> 01:45:17.175
Mary Wanless: know, as I talk about it in
workshops, as well as they've started to

01:45:17.175 --> 01:45:19.325
experience it on a horse and in teaching.

01:45:19.325 --> 01:45:22.755
So I'm really trying to get people there
in their teaching as well as their riding.

01:45:23.435 --> 01:45:26.565
And I think quite often it gets
people there more there in life.

01:45:27.745 --> 01:45:31.055
I mean, I think I live my life
to a large extent in flow.

01:45:31.565 --> 01:45:35.195
And when I can do that in everyday
menial tasks as well, that's great.

01:45:38.445 --> 01:45:40.865
So flow is, I think the
bottom line on that.

01:45:41.125 --> 01:45:45.115
And, and I also do encourage people to
ride out as well as ride in the arena.

01:45:45.115 --> 01:45:49.380
And, you know, when I ride out, I,
always have something I'm working on, but

01:45:49.390 --> 01:45:52.670
it'll just be something in my body and
my horse's body, just quietly, even if

01:45:52.670 --> 01:45:57.340
we're just hacking along and there's no
pressure in that, you can take your time.

01:45:58.440 --> 01:46:02.100
And, and one of the biggest things in
this, I think, is teaching the noticing

01:46:02.100 --> 01:46:03.970
skills of teaching people to check in.

01:46:05.710 --> 01:46:10.250
Yeah, innate riders never check
out, but teaching the average rider

01:46:10.250 --> 01:46:12.980
to check in, what's happening now?

01:46:13.030 --> 01:46:14.300
Oh, I hollered my back again,

01:46:16.360 --> 01:46:16.590
right?

01:46:16.600 --> 01:46:19.270
Yeah, and then not having to do
a whole self beating up thing.

01:46:20.370 --> 01:46:20.660
Rupert Isaacson: Say that again.

01:46:21.020 --> 01:46:22.460
Mary Wanless: People think
they ought to be able to ride

01:46:22.460 --> 01:46:23.470
by the seat of their pants.

01:46:23.500 --> 01:46:27.810
And yet, so many people come back to
riding as adults after however many years.

01:46:28.020 --> 01:46:30.880
And maybe as a kid they did ride by
the seat of their pants and they did

01:46:30.880 --> 01:46:32.680
have a lovely pony and it all worked.

01:46:33.490 --> 01:46:37.580
Or you come back at 50 something,
with many more what ifs in your

01:46:37.580 --> 01:46:40.850
brain, and the seat of your
pants doesn't work any longer.

01:46:41.310 --> 01:46:41.630
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:46:42.130 --> 01:46:43.620
Mary Wanless: And often
people are shocked by this.

01:46:45.490 --> 01:46:51.430
So, you know, getting to
check in, to keep checking in.

01:46:51.990 --> 01:46:54.520
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, without negative
self beating up language, yeah.

01:46:54.570 --> 01:46:56.830
Mary Wanless: Yeah, not beating
yourself up, but just checking in.

01:46:57.010 --> 01:46:58.630
In a non judgmental way.

01:46:59.120 --> 01:46:59.940
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
oh there's that thing.

01:46:59.940 --> 01:47:00.270
Non

01:47:00.270 --> 01:47:01.430
Mary Wanless: judgmental awareness.

01:47:01.560 --> 01:47:03.210
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely, absolutely.

01:47:03.730 --> 01:47:07.540
It's it's the difficulty about sport
instruction, because sport instruction

01:47:07.540 --> 01:47:12.720
always, always has the implicit, the
implication that there's a judge.

01:47:13.340 --> 01:47:16.940
You know, and of course you will never
meet that judges expectations and it's,

01:47:17.360 --> 01:47:20.430
I agree with you so much about being
outside in nature while you do it.

01:47:20.460 --> 01:47:23.820
It's actually gotten to the point
outside of our therapeutic work,

01:47:23.850 --> 01:47:28.910
which we almost entirely do in nature,
unless weather forces us inside.

01:47:29.390 --> 01:47:32.280
Just because arenas are relatively
sterile environments, you know,

01:47:32.320 --> 01:47:34.270
in terms of introducing a brain.

01:47:35.035 --> 01:47:37.155
You two things you want the outside world.

01:47:39.235 --> 01:47:40.675
I've now gotten to the
point with dressage.

01:47:40.675 --> 01:47:45.805
I almost never teach in an arena anymore
i'll do almost the entire thing in the

01:47:45.805 --> 01:47:50.655
forest because i've just noticed that
people and horses are happier there and

01:47:50.655 --> 01:47:55.870
then occasionally if there's something
where okay, we could benefit from the

01:47:55.870 --> 01:47:59.360
wall, or we could benefit from the fence,
or we could benefit from a corner here.

01:47:59.380 --> 01:48:01.880
Okay, let's go back to the
arena for that one thing.

01:48:02.470 --> 01:48:06.220
But it's, it's so interesting how just the
very presence of an arena brings pressure.

01:48:06.220 --> 01:48:07.657
Yes, yes, it's

01:48:07.657 --> 01:48:08.135
Mary Wanless: true.

01:48:08.615 --> 01:48:09.975
Rupert Isaacson: You know, gladiatorial.

01:48:10.015 --> 01:48:13.225
Mary Wanless: And it's sad, certainly
in the UK, you know, we have

01:48:13.595 --> 01:48:16.295
increasingly little safe riding.

01:48:16.775 --> 01:48:17.285
Rupert Isaacson: So true.

01:48:17.645 --> 01:48:20.745
Mary Wanless: Off road riding,
you know, to have access to the

01:48:20.745 --> 01:48:23.695
outdoors without tying yourself
up in a juggernaut, you know.

01:48:24.175 --> 01:48:25.585
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely,
no, you're absolutely right.

01:48:25.585 --> 01:48:26.222
Not,

01:48:26.222 --> 01:48:28.595
Mary Wanless: not, not
to be taken for granted.

01:48:28.645 --> 01:48:29.535
No, it's true.

01:48:29.835 --> 01:48:32.165
Rupert Isaacson: When, when I was
when I was a boy, you know, we would

01:48:32.175 --> 01:48:35.015
hack to a meat of hounds that was.

01:48:35.895 --> 01:48:38.105
Anything up to an hour
away and might finish.

01:48:38.820 --> 01:48:42.920
after dark and hack the
lanes home for two hours.

01:48:42.980 --> 01:48:44.770
You couldn't think about doing that now.

01:48:45.340 --> 01:48:45.960
You'd be killed.

01:48:47.690 --> 01:48:47.830
I used

01:48:47.830 --> 01:48:50.160
Mary Wanless: to ride out
hunters for somebody when I

01:48:50.160 --> 01:48:51.280
was at university in Bristol.

01:48:51.290 --> 01:48:54.900
We rode along the A38, which is
one of the main roads from Bristol

01:48:54.910 --> 01:48:56.190
going north up to Gloucester.

01:48:56.190 --> 01:49:01.975
I, I You know, brushed with some
of my nine lives along that road,

01:49:01.975 --> 01:49:03.145
but you wouldn't dare do it now.

01:49:03.225 --> 01:49:03.865
Rupert Isaacson: No, you wouldn't.

01:49:03.965 --> 01:49:04.295
You wouldn't.

01:49:04.315 --> 01:49:04.885
And back

01:49:05.355 --> 01:49:05.655
Mary Wanless: then,

01:49:07.115 --> 01:49:08.505
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
it, and you're right.

01:49:08.505 --> 01:49:10.815
There isn't the public access in the UK.

01:49:10.975 --> 01:49:14.965
I'm lucky here in Germany because you
can basically ride any, you can ride.

01:49:15.285 --> 01:49:16.905
There's tracks everywhere
and you can just go.

01:49:17.315 --> 01:49:20.635
But it's, I've never experienced
that outside of places like the

01:49:20.635 --> 01:49:23.015
Welsh borders or areas of open Hills.

01:49:23.175 --> 01:49:24.815
Mary Wanless: And then
there are places, I mean, I.

01:49:25.495 --> 01:49:29.325
Rode a lot on Exmoor in my university
days and God, I love it there.

01:49:29.435 --> 01:49:31.515
It's one of UK and probably the world.

01:49:33.465 --> 01:49:34.105
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree.

01:49:34.855 --> 01:49:39.165
So yes, there's, and it's true
that one then needs ways to

01:49:39.165 --> 01:49:40.515
kind of humanize the arena.

01:49:40.965 --> 01:49:42.935
And we do that with autistic kids.

01:49:43.515 --> 01:49:45.035
We will create forests in the arena.

01:49:45.035 --> 01:49:48.385
We'll have trees that we bring in
and like you're setting up jumps,

01:49:48.385 --> 01:49:50.555
we'll set up a forest or Right, okay.

01:49:50.615 --> 01:49:52.935
We'll turn it into a beach, you
know, and we'll have couches

01:49:52.935 --> 01:49:54.755
and even a little fire going.

01:49:54.765 --> 01:49:55.975
And, you know.

01:49:56.670 --> 01:49:59.300
A sofa will bring that, you
know, and anything we can think

01:49:59.300 --> 01:50:00.740
of to kind of humanize it.

01:50:01.100 --> 01:50:07.310
But It's so easy to just think in
terms of I am doing this task here.

01:50:07.680 --> 01:50:09.050
I'm working my horse.

01:50:09.050 --> 01:50:10.450
I'm not playing with my pony.

01:50:10.970 --> 01:50:14.030
So even that language of, you
know, it's always serious.

01:50:14.030 --> 01:50:14.690
It's always a horse.

01:50:14.690 --> 01:50:15.460
It's never a pony.

01:50:15.660 --> 01:50:16.360
It's always a rider.

01:50:16.370 --> 01:50:20.620
So I try to use the word monkey, you
know, got sky monkey, ground monkey, front

01:50:20.620 --> 01:50:24.750
monkey, back monkey, anything to just
sort of take the seriousness out of it.

01:50:25.380 --> 01:50:30.040
Because of this pressure that the arena
is a place where you go to sort of suffer

01:50:30.040 --> 01:50:34.000
and die on the sand and either Caesar
puts his thumb up or puts his hand down.

01:50:34.000 --> 01:50:34.718
Yes, it's

01:50:34.718 --> 01:50:36.511
Mary Wanless: kind of like that, yes.

01:50:36.511 --> 01:50:39.040
I mean, thank God that is on the way out.

01:50:39.180 --> 01:50:39.470
It is

01:50:39.490 --> 01:50:40.160
Rupert Isaacson: on the way out.

01:50:40.160 --> 01:50:43.810
Mary Wanless: There is not enough
really good, sane understanding

01:50:43.850 --> 01:50:44.960
and coaching on the way in.

01:50:45.330 --> 01:50:45.670
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:50:46.075 --> 01:50:49.055
Mary Wanless: There is
some, but not enough.

01:50:49.255 --> 01:50:51.705
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you've been,
I think, one of the big forces

01:50:51.725 --> 01:50:53.795
for humanising the entire thing.

01:50:53.975 --> 01:50:57.955
And I think that one of the
reasons why the UK is where we are,

01:50:58.025 --> 01:51:02.015
actually, with sport riding, that
suddenly we can beat the Germans.

01:51:02.325 --> 01:51:06.245
I think it's largely down to people
like you making these processes.

01:51:06.765 --> 01:51:11.345
available to people, but outside of
the sport riding just to help people

01:51:11.345 --> 01:51:13.935
connect joyfully with their horses.

01:51:14.085 --> 01:51:18.255
I, I do think there's a whole generation
of riders, two generations of riders

01:51:18.255 --> 01:51:20.825
in the UK who owe you a great debt.

01:51:20.825 --> 01:51:25.415
So it's, it's been massively educational
for me, but also a great honor for

01:51:25.415 --> 01:51:29.215
me to have you on here because, you
know, you've, you've really contributed

01:51:29.215 --> 01:51:31.105
in this massively positive way.

01:51:33.015 --> 01:51:35.435
Mary Wanless: Yeah, I think there's
been a level of me kind of pushing up

01:51:35.435 --> 01:51:40.715
from the bottom And some of the big
name really good riders It's pulling up

01:51:40.715 --> 01:51:42.635
from the top and inspiring from the top.

01:51:43.925 --> 01:51:47.025
And I think there could be some truth
in that, that my influence is bigger

01:51:47.025 --> 01:51:48.625
than I probably realise in terms of

01:51:50.675 --> 01:51:54.015
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I think you should
savour that truth, because it's good

01:51:54.015 --> 01:51:56.265
work that you've done and continue to do.

01:51:56.565 --> 01:52:00.465
So if people want to come and learn with
you how do they do that and then how

01:52:00.465 --> 01:52:03.795
can they find your books and can they
learn with you online as well as live?

01:52:04.095 --> 01:52:06.865
Mary Wanless: Yes, so my
website is meri onelist.

01:52:06.865 --> 01:52:09.475
com Is that Lower,

01:52:09.505 --> 01:52:09.925
Rupert Isaacson: please.

01:52:10.720 --> 01:52:11.820
Mary Wanless: mary oneless.

01:52:12.740 --> 01:52:13.280
com mary

01:52:13.880 --> 01:52:16.540
Rupert Isaacson: oneless W A N L

01:52:16.580 --> 01:52:17.580
Mary Wanless: E double S

01:52:18.260 --> 01:52:18.580
Rupert Isaacson: com

01:52:19.390 --> 01:52:22.890
Mary Wanless: that's got information on
the courses I teach in the UK and the US

01:52:23.090 --> 01:52:23.550
Rupert Isaacson: alright

01:52:24.460 --> 01:52:28.495
Mary Wanless: and it's got information
on coaches who are accredited in

01:52:28.495 --> 01:52:33.385
this work, mostly in the UK and
the US, but Australia, New Zealand,

01:52:33.505 --> 01:52:34.615
a little bit in Europe, too.

01:52:35.115 --> 01:52:36.155
The website DressageTraining.

01:52:36.975 --> 01:52:41.875
tv, which is a membership
site, DressageTraining,

01:52:41.885 --> 01:52:42.795
Rupert Isaacson: all one word,

01:52:43.135 --> 01:52:45.155
Mary Wanless: DressageTraining,
all one word, dot

01:52:45.665 --> 01:52:46.105
Rupert Isaacson: TV.

01:52:46.305 --> 01:52:46.755
Okay.

01:52:47.425 --> 01:52:48.775
Mary Wanless: Puts my work online.

01:52:49.265 --> 01:52:50.415
Rupert Isaacson: What
can people do on there?

01:52:51.285 --> 01:52:53.375
Mary Wanless: They can watch webinars.

01:52:54.285 --> 01:52:57.925
They can watch what we call the
rider biomechanics course, which is

01:52:57.925 --> 01:53:02.155
broken down into bite sized chunks
of what it is that the rider needs to

01:53:02.155 --> 01:53:03.605
do with their body to make it work.

01:53:04.435 --> 01:53:08.275
There are other courses on things like
steering, straightness and sideways,

01:53:09.065 --> 01:53:13.385
the baselines of on the bit and what
that really means and how to influence

01:53:13.385 --> 01:53:14.885
a horse's posture and movement.

01:53:15.285 --> 01:53:15.725
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.

01:53:16.545 --> 01:53:21.105
Mary Wanless: There's also the
groundwork that we do based on giving

01:53:21.105 --> 01:53:24.855
the horse a conscious understanding of
the legs as go and the reins as woe.

01:53:25.365 --> 01:53:25.455
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm

01:53:25.995 --> 01:53:28.575
. 
Mary Wanless: Equine learning theory
is where we start in groundwork.

01:53:30.655 --> 01:53:35.805
And you can send in little bits of video
if you're doing some of the courses,

01:53:35.805 --> 01:53:38.835
you can send in lots of little bits
of video and get feedback on them.

01:53:39.185 --> 01:53:39.455
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:53:40.595 --> 01:53:41.285
And I've met people

01:53:41.615 --> 01:53:44.015
Mary Wanless: who've really taught
themselves to ride on the internet.

01:53:44.840 --> 01:53:45.120
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:53:45.760 --> 01:53:47.080
Mary Wanless: it's never
sure that could happen at the

01:53:47.080 --> 01:53:48.480
beginning, but it really can.

01:53:48.540 --> 01:53:49.490
I so agree

01:53:49.490 --> 01:53:49.770
Rupert Isaacson: with you.

01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:50.150
They've

01:53:50.840 --> 01:53:52.080
Mary Wanless: taught themselves
to ride on the internet.

01:53:52.320 --> 01:53:55.510
Rupert Isaacson: I was very sceptical
about that and I've absolutely

01:53:55.510 --> 01:53:56.380
seen people who've done it.

01:53:56.950 --> 01:53:59.190
How much, what does it cost to
be a member on your website?

01:53:59.240 --> 01:54:04.220
Mary Wanless: It's, it's going to be, it's
going up fairly soon to 25 quid a month.

01:54:05.800 --> 01:54:09.770
And you get access to
a huge amount for that.

01:54:09.960 --> 01:54:10.650
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, great.

01:54:11.150 --> 01:54:12.640
And then your books,
tell us about the books.

01:54:12.965 --> 01:54:15.235
Mary Wanless: Yeah, so there
are I've written seven books,

01:54:15.255 --> 01:54:16.805
three are still in print.

01:54:18.515 --> 01:54:22.165
So there's Ride With Your Mind
Essentials, Ride With Your Mind Clinic.

01:54:22.520 --> 01:54:23.900
and Rider Biomechanics.

01:54:24.460 --> 01:54:24.720
Okay.

01:54:24.740 --> 01:54:28.340
And sometimes people find the
older books in, in car boot sales.

01:54:28.520 --> 01:54:32.160
There's a couple of people I know who've
got very involved in my work that found

01:54:32.160 --> 01:54:34.160
one of the early books in a car boot sale.

01:54:34.420 --> 01:54:37.010
So there's probably find them

01:54:37.010 --> 01:54:37.670
Rupert Isaacson: online too.

01:54:37.670 --> 01:54:39.000
I mean, there will be

01:54:39.000 --> 01:54:41.590
Mary Wanless: there and other places that
might work better than that nowadays.

01:54:42.090 --> 01:54:43.870
But those three books are a good trilogy.

01:54:44.890 --> 01:54:45.120
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:54:45.120 --> 01:54:47.800
Just give us the titles again
for those who didn't get to ride

01:54:47.910 --> 01:54:48.960
Mary Wanless: with your mind essentials,

01:54:48.980 --> 01:54:49.300
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:54:49.300 --> 01:54:50.260
With your mind essentials.

01:54:50.585 --> 01:54:51.705
Mary Wanless: That's the place to start.

01:54:51.715 --> 01:54:53.675
That's the sort of beginning ABC.

01:54:53.945 --> 01:54:54.335
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:54:55.085 --> 01:54:58.455
Mary Wanless: Ride With Your Mind
Clinic, which is a series of lessons.

01:54:58.865 --> 01:54:59.205
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:54:59.975 --> 01:55:03.965
Mary Wanless: And talking about it through
the experience of the rider in the lesson.

01:55:03.965 --> 01:55:05.645
So there's a lot of
photographs in that book.

01:55:05.895 --> 01:55:06.245
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.

01:55:07.285 --> 01:55:12.830
Mary Wanless: And Rider Biomechanics
comes in through the model of The

01:55:12.910 --> 01:55:18.580
fascial net and fascial lines and
like that understanding of the core

01:55:18.580 --> 01:55:22.380
of the body and how to access your
own fascial lines and how that helps

01:55:22.380 --> 01:55:29.010
you organize the horse's fascial
lines and how that whole system works.

01:55:29.310 --> 01:55:29.750
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:55:30.190 --> 01:55:31.460
And fascia for the listeners.

01:55:31.461 --> 01:55:32.950
Fascia

01:55:32.950 --> 01:55:34.860
Mary Wanless: would be
the connective tissue.

01:55:34.860 --> 01:55:39.360
So in the history of dissection,
like everything, they kind of cut

01:55:39.360 --> 01:55:42.180
it into little pieces and when,
Oh, this muscle begins here and

01:55:42.180 --> 01:55:43.430
it goes to there and it does this.

01:55:44.285 --> 01:55:47.975
But if you turn the scalpel on its side,
you could go, okay, so here's the joint

01:55:47.975 --> 01:55:51.695
capsule and here's the ligament, and
here's the tendon and here's the muscle.

01:55:51.695 --> 01:55:53.915
And there at the other end
is another tendon and another

01:55:53.915 --> 01:55:55.655
ligament and another joint capsule.

01:55:55.955 --> 01:56:01.595
And if you keep going, turning the scalpel
on its side, you can create chains of

01:56:01.595 --> 01:56:05.255
muscle and con and connective tissue,
some of which go from head to toe.

01:56:07.175 --> 01:56:09.575
So they're almost like
guy ropes within the body.

01:56:10.745 --> 01:56:14.805
And getting those guy ropes to have
an appropriate and balanced tension

01:56:16.805 --> 01:56:17.905
makes a huge difference.

01:56:18.025 --> 01:56:18.735
Rupert Isaacson: Biotension.

01:56:18.735 --> 01:56:18.965
Rider

01:56:19.415 --> 01:56:23.705
Mary Wanless: actually is using her
own fascial net to change the horse's

01:56:23.705 --> 01:56:25.175
fascial net when it goes really well.

01:56:26.335 --> 01:56:26.825
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

01:56:27.525 --> 01:56:28.095
Okay.

01:56:28.185 --> 01:56:32.055
And fascia, I think is something which
used to be one of those words you'd hear

01:56:32.095 --> 01:56:33.675
and it's now becoming more familiar.

01:56:34.135 --> 01:56:34.335
Mary Wanless: It is.

01:56:34.705 --> 01:56:41.210
So, so Tom has done a lot to bring that
into public awareness and There are

01:56:41.210 --> 01:56:44.550
more and more people looking at this
sort of systems approach to the body.

01:56:45.030 --> 01:56:48.640
And then there was actually a medic
who started talking about fascia

01:56:48.680 --> 01:56:52.200
because there's some talk about
how cancer cells migrate through

01:56:52.200 --> 01:56:53.540
the body through the fascial net.

01:56:54.560 --> 01:56:54.740
Rupert Isaacson: And

01:56:54.740 --> 01:56:57.100
Mary Wanless: that became
the medical discovery of it.

01:56:57.140 --> 01:57:00.825
Whereas outside of
Directly medical circles.

01:57:00.825 --> 01:57:02.635
There was a lot of
research already going on,

01:57:02.915 --> 01:57:03.345
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:57:04.155 --> 01:57:07.725
And if dysfunctional cells can
move through the fascial net, then

01:57:07.725 --> 01:57:10.225
presumably functional things can too.

01:57:10.855 --> 01:57:11.655
Yeah, so the

01:57:11.655 --> 01:57:14.355
Mary Wanless: fascial net is
actually the basis of our feel sense.

01:57:14.355 --> 01:57:19.575
It has way more receptors that
send information to the brain

01:57:19.585 --> 01:57:21.145
about feel than muscles do.

01:57:22.485 --> 01:57:24.465
And it has to be taught.

01:57:24.495 --> 01:57:26.935
It's also the organ of force
transmission in the body.

01:57:27.515 --> 01:57:30.105
And to transmit force
well, it has to be taught.

01:57:32.185 --> 01:57:33.585
Rupert Isaacson: TAUT as in T A U T.

01:57:34.045 --> 01:57:34.955
Mary Wanless: T A U T.

01:57:36.355 --> 01:57:37.805
Rupert Isaacson: I can see
another podcast coming on.

01:57:38.355 --> 01:57:39.995
Mary Wanless: So it has to be taught.

01:57:40.065 --> 01:57:42.595
So anyone who's told to
relax and just goes, Ugh!

01:57:42.775 --> 01:57:42.915
Rupert Isaacson: You're not

01:57:43.475 --> 01:57:45.055
Mary Wanless: going to do a
good job because that's too

01:57:45.055 --> 01:57:46.245
soggy and too like a rag doll.

01:57:46.255 --> 01:57:47.515
Rupert Isaacson: Right, so
what you're talking about is

01:57:47.515 --> 01:57:49.075
relaxation in tension, right?

01:57:49.085 --> 01:57:49.895
Like a dancer.

01:57:50.405 --> 01:57:50.725
Mary Wanless: Enough

01:57:50.915 --> 01:57:51.295
Rupert Isaacson: tension.

01:57:51.795 --> 01:57:54.655
But not so much tension that
it's rigid, enough relaxation.

01:57:54.655 --> 01:57:55.945
Mary Wanless: Enough tension
but you're not uptight.

01:57:55.946 --> 01:57:56.255
Indeed.

01:57:56.255 --> 01:57:56.765
Rupert Isaacson: But you're

01:57:56.765 --> 01:57:58.155
Mary Wanless: not too down loose either.

01:57:58.385 --> 01:57:58.735
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

01:57:59.175 --> 01:58:02.355
Which is rather difficult when
your amygdala is firing and you're

01:58:02.355 --> 01:58:04.135
sitting on a horse that you're
worried is going to unload you.

01:58:04.405 --> 01:58:04.665
Yes.

01:58:05.395 --> 01:58:07.165
So there lies the art.

01:58:07.665 --> 01:58:10.345
And I think you help people get there.

01:58:10.535 --> 01:58:12.425
I'm really grateful that you came on.

01:58:12.705 --> 01:58:15.085
I'd like to have you back
actually, now that you've opened

01:58:15.085 --> 01:58:16.375
up this thing about fascia.

01:58:16.785 --> 01:58:20.925
And fascia and feel, because I'm a
great believer that a lot of rider

01:58:20.925 --> 01:58:22.615
feel comes through the fascia.

01:58:23.225 --> 01:58:26.365
And that this is something that
can help people, because you know,

01:58:26.705 --> 01:58:29.415
when you and I were growing up,
there was this myth that, oh, feel

01:58:29.415 --> 01:58:30.625
can't be taught, and it can totally.

01:58:30.625 --> 01:58:30.835
Yes,

01:58:30.975 --> 01:58:32.585
Mary Wanless: no, this
is definitely not true.

01:58:32.595 --> 01:58:33.665
Feel can be taught.

01:58:33.745 --> 01:58:35.215
Rupert Isaacson: I so
agree, and I'm so happy.

01:58:35.215 --> 01:58:35.415
It's easier

01:58:35.525 --> 01:58:38.245
Mary Wanless: for some people than
others, but feel can be taught.

01:58:38.335 --> 01:58:39.775
Rupert Isaacson:
Absolutely, like a language.

01:58:40.750 --> 01:58:44.320
Well, fantastic, mary wanlis.

01:58:44.350 --> 01:58:47.080
com, dressagetraining.

01:58:47.230 --> 01:58:49.950
tv, the membership education site.

01:58:50.690 --> 01:58:51.640
We have the books.

01:58:52.670 --> 01:58:53.540
Mary, thank you.

01:58:54.250 --> 01:58:54.970
I've learned a lot.

01:58:55.580 --> 01:58:58.970
I hope you'll come back on because I think
there's further things we could explore.

01:58:59.230 --> 01:59:01.550
And we tend to get a fair
amount of questions coming

01:59:01.550 --> 01:59:02.480
through from the listeners.

01:59:02.820 --> 01:59:08.280
So, Perhaps with your permission I'll
collate some of those and then maybe

01:59:08.280 --> 01:59:10.590
we could regroup in a few months and

01:59:10.760 --> 01:59:13.135
Mary Wanless: yes I'd be happy to do that.

01:59:13.255 --> 01:59:13.695
My pleasure.

01:59:13.695 --> 01:59:16.815
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

01:59:17.355 --> 01:59:22.255
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

01:59:22.265 --> 01:59:26.435
It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of

01:59:26.435 --> 01:59:28.315
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.

01:59:28.465 --> 01:59:31.545
And if you're interested in more
conversations, you might want to check

01:59:31.555 --> 01:59:34.235
out I'll live free ride free podcast.

01:59:34.625 --> 01:59:39.385
And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.

01:59:39.435 --> 01:59:41.925
com and click on the Patreon link.

01:59:42.625 --> 01:59:46.145
If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career

01:59:46.495 --> 01:59:50.005
in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three

01:59:50.015 --> 01:59:55.775
certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.

01:59:55.860 --> 01:59:57.330
Equine integration.

01:59:57.600 --> 02:00:02.550
You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.

02:00:02.750 --> 02:00:06.140
And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed

02:00:06.140 --> 02:00:09.160
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,

02:00:09.490 --> 02:00:10.630
please click on Shop.

02:00:10.690 --> 02:00:12.370
You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.

02:00:12.550 --> 02:00:17.940
And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might

02:00:17.940 --> 02:00:22.050
want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the

02:00:22.050 --> 02:00:24.860
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

02:00:25.130 --> 02:00:26.750
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

02:00:26.870 --> 02:00:27.200
world.

02:00:27.460 --> 02:00:28.650
Join us for the adventure.