1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:01,620 Speaker 3: Welcome to Honest Money. 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,910 I'm your host, Anja, and today's episode is brought to you by hard block. 3 00:00:12,424 --> 00:00:14,854 Anja: Welcome back to Honest Money. 4 00:00:14,854 --> 00:00:18,369 Joining me today is one of my favourite Australian Bitcoiners, K3tan. 5 00:00:18,499 --> 00:00:20,314 K3tan, welcome. 6 00:00:21,484 --> 00:00:22,514 K3nan: Thank you for having me, Anja. 7 00:00:23,164 --> 00:00:23,434 Anja: Yay. 8 00:00:24,364 --> 00:00:28,414 Um, it's always so funny whenever I have a Bitcoin or on that I know in 9 00:00:28,414 --> 00:00:32,909 real life I always say, yay, I notice that it's like a dead, a wedge go. 10 00:00:32,909 --> 00:00:34,924 Yay, a friend. 11 00:00:35,089 --> 00:00:35,179 Yes. 12 00:00:35,389 --> 00:00:39,499 Um, yeah, so Katan is a privacy expert. 13 00:00:39,499 --> 00:00:43,219 In addition to obviously being a Bitcoin, he owns Ministry of 14 00:00:43,219 --> 00:00:45,559 Nodes, which is a great resource. 15 00:00:45,559 --> 00:00:46,939 And maybe let's start there. 16 00:00:46,939 --> 00:00:49,759 Katan, like, tell us how this came about. 17 00:00:49,759 --> 00:00:53,309 How did you come to create Ministry of Nodes and what is it? 18 00:00:54,259 --> 00:00:58,099 K3nan: Yeah, so Ministry of Nodes is essentially an educational initiative. 19 00:00:58,489 --> 00:01:01,829 Um, I have a very good friend by the name of Stephan Livera. 20 00:01:02,209 --> 00:01:03,769 He's also a podcaster. 21 00:01:04,189 --> 00:01:09,084 Um, and we kind of, uh, I guess banded together and said, Hey, we want to improve 22 00:01:09,084 --> 00:01:12,454 the educational landscape of Bitcoin. 23 00:01:12,904 --> 00:01:17,974 Um, and so we kind of just got together and created Ministry of Nodes. 24 00:01:18,214 --> 00:01:22,294 I was listening to Ministry of Sounds at the time, so I thought, you know what, 25 00:01:22,384 --> 00:01:24,424 how about Ministry of Nodes as the name? 26 00:01:25,024 --> 00:01:26,764 And we started to. 27 00:01:27,334 --> 00:01:31,894 You know, create content around self custody, running a node, uh, and all 28 00:01:31,894 --> 00:01:36,874 around becoming a, um, first class Bitcoin citizen, uh, so to speak. 29 00:01:37,084 --> 00:01:41,854 And so we just put that together and we ran workshops at the start. 30 00:01:42,094 --> 00:01:46,869 And then, um, we kind of, uh, pivoted to more the YouTube, um. 31 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:51,589 You know, tutorials, um, and then one-on-one consult consultations. 32 00:01:51,829 --> 00:01:55,789 Stefan's obviously, uh, moved out of Australia, um, and he's no longer 33 00:01:55,789 --> 00:01:57,079 part of Ministry of Nodes anymore. 34 00:01:57,469 --> 00:02:00,739 Um, and so it's just me running, uh, this solo. 35 00:02:02,119 --> 00:02:03,229 Anja: Lovely, lovely. 36 00:02:03,229 --> 00:02:07,399 So let's again start maybe with what's important. 37 00:02:07,399 --> 00:02:11,809 Why is it important to run a node and why is this something that, you know, nubes 38 00:02:11,839 --> 00:02:14,209 who are into Bitcoin should consider? 39 00:02:15,499 --> 00:02:19,219 K3nan: Yeah, so I think if you're new to Bitcoin, the first thing I think that 40 00:02:19,219 --> 00:02:20,899 you should be doing is self custody. 41 00:02:21,379 --> 00:02:24,889 Um, this is, uh, running a node is a bit more further down the rabbit hole. 42 00:02:25,009 --> 00:02:28,369 Um, but I do think that it is important, uh, to do. 43 00:02:28,759 --> 00:02:33,529 Um, firstly, uh, the main reason that you should be running a Bitcoin node 44 00:02:33,559 --> 00:02:37,549 is to independently verify, uh, your. 45 00:02:38,149 --> 00:02:41,659 Uh, balances and incoming transactions on the Bitcoin network. 46 00:02:41,779 --> 00:02:44,539 You're not relying on a trusted third party who can then, 47 00:02:44,749 --> 00:02:45,919 you know, manipulate you. 48 00:02:46,474 --> 00:02:50,164 Um, or feed you fake information or put you on a blockchain that 49 00:02:50,164 --> 00:02:54,484 has 25 million coins when we, we all agreed to 21 million coins. 50 00:02:54,844 --> 00:02:56,164 Um, those sorts of things. 51 00:02:56,854 --> 00:03:00,904 The next reason that you would want to run a Bitcoin node is, 52 00:03:00,994 --> 00:03:04,114 uh, or why it's important to do so, is so that you can transact. 53 00:03:04,529 --> 00:03:07,469 Uh, or broadcast your transactions without censorship. 54 00:03:07,739 --> 00:03:11,069 So if you're using somebody else's node to broadcast those transactions, 55 00:03:11,279 --> 00:03:12,779 well, they can cut you off. 56 00:03:12,869 --> 00:03:16,499 Um, they can say, okay, well this node is only available between the hours of 57 00:03:16,499 --> 00:03:18,839 nine, nine to five, Monday to Friday. 58 00:03:19,169 --> 00:03:23,009 Um, and they can really just blocked, um, payments going out, 59 00:03:23,219 --> 00:03:24,839 um, to the rest of the network. 60 00:03:25,019 --> 00:03:29,019 So, in that regard, running your own Bitcoin node is like your gateway, your 61 00:03:29,019 --> 00:03:33,099 personal gateway to plug in and, and, and transact on the Bitcoin network. 62 00:03:33,699 --> 00:03:38,919 And then the, I guess another thing from that is a, I guess it's important to run 63 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:41,079 a Bitcoin node from a privacy perspective. 64 00:03:41,319 --> 00:03:41,709 Um. 65 00:03:42,304 --> 00:03:46,204 When you query somebody else's node with your balances, um, 66 00:03:46,249 --> 00:03:49,804 and, and, and your, your wallet, uh, that is giving information 67 00:03:49,804 --> 00:03:51,874 away, uh, to another third party. 68 00:03:52,144 --> 00:03:56,374 Um, and combining that with your IP address and other information, they 69 00:03:56,374 --> 00:04:00,844 may be able to see exactly how much you own, what you're spending, how 70 00:04:00,844 --> 00:04:02,794 much you earn, those sorts of things. 71 00:04:02,854 --> 00:04:06,184 So you wanna keep that private, um, and that that can be done 72 00:04:06,244 --> 00:04:07,709 through running a Bitcoin note. 73 00:04:08,704 --> 00:04:13,264 Um, and then the final thing, I guess, is to just strengthen the network, um, 74 00:04:13,294 --> 00:04:14,974 for, for, for running a Bitcoin note. 75 00:04:15,334 --> 00:04:19,474 Um, and, and what that means is you, yourself are now self-sovereign. 76 00:04:19,564 --> 00:04:22,234 Um, so you're not relying on trusted third parties that 77 00:04:22,234 --> 00:04:24,874 builds in resiliency and then. 78 00:04:25,114 --> 00:04:29,164 You are also relaying blocks to other nodes that you are connected to as well. 79 00:04:29,164 --> 00:04:32,734 So you're somewhat helping out, um, with the distribution of the blocks 80 00:04:32,734 --> 00:04:37,354 going out, uh, throughout the, the o over the internet, um, on the network. 81 00:04:37,594 --> 00:04:40,504 So those are, I guess, the key reasons as to why it's 82 00:04:40,504 --> 00:04:41,794 important to run a Bitcoin node. 83 00:04:41,794 --> 00:04:44,104 I'd strongly encourage people to do so. 84 00:04:44,434 --> 00:04:46,204 Um, but if you're still. 85 00:04:46,729 --> 00:04:51,019 I guess down the part of your, your path of, um, you know, having your coins on the 86 00:04:51,019 --> 00:04:56,239 exchange, I think that's something that needs to be solved before you go down the 87 00:04:56,239 --> 00:04:57,889 rabbit hole of running a Bitcoin node. 88 00:04:58,099 --> 00:05:03,919 I think you should be, um, you know, uh, ideally you can do both, um, at one go. 89 00:05:04,159 --> 00:05:04,909 Um, but. 90 00:05:05,434 --> 00:05:09,034 Uh, realistically what tends to happen is most people take custody 91 00:05:09,034 --> 00:05:12,574 of their own keys first and then consider running a Bitcoin node. 92 00:05:12,904 --> 00:05:17,794 Um, and there's a plethora of ways to do that, um, which I'm, I'm, you know, 93 00:05:17,854 --> 00:05:19,174 I'm happy to get into if you want. 94 00:05:19,729 --> 00:05:21,589 Anja: Yeah, I, I didn't know. 95 00:05:21,589 --> 00:05:25,459 So this for me is like the next natural step in my evolution. 96 00:05:25,459 --> 00:05:26,329 I do have a note. 97 00:05:26,329 --> 00:05:28,549 I haven't set it up yet, which is so embarrassing. 98 00:05:28,819 --> 00:05:35,569 Um, my dad has, um, but I, I didn't know the part that you said that they 99 00:05:35,569 --> 00:05:40,699 can actually, like, node operators can restrict the time that they operate 100 00:05:40,699 --> 00:05:42,409 on and the payments and all of that. 101 00:05:42,409 --> 00:05:45,409 Is there historical examples where that has been done? 102 00:05:45,814 --> 00:05:46,264 That you know 103 00:05:46,264 --> 00:05:46,324 K3nan: of? 104 00:05:46,324 --> 00:05:47,374 No, typically, no. 105 00:05:47,404 --> 00:05:49,834 That, that, that's, and I'm not saying, suggesting that that 106 00:05:49,834 --> 00:05:51,274 is what's happening right now. 107 00:05:51,604 --> 00:05:55,234 What I am suggesting though is that if you are relying on a trusted third 108 00:05:55,234 --> 00:06:00,064 party, you are now at the, at the whim of them, um, rather than yourself. 109 00:06:00,064 --> 00:06:03,484 So if you do need to transact at three o'clock in the morning, then 110 00:06:03,544 --> 00:06:06,904 you know it will be available, and I'm sure other people's notes are gonna 111 00:06:06,904 --> 00:06:08,464 be available at the time as well. 112 00:06:08,794 --> 00:06:12,964 Um, but uh, if you want to go down that path of having your own 113 00:06:12,964 --> 00:06:14,794 gateway into the Bitcoin network. 114 00:06:14,984 --> 00:06:17,924 Then running a Bitcoin node is the only way to do that. 115 00:06:18,254 --> 00:06:25,784 Um, so yeah, otherwise you are, you are at the, you know, um, mercy or the 116 00:06:25,784 --> 00:06:30,824 good graces of whoever you, you choose to, to, to, to run your node for you. 117 00:06:31,579 --> 00:06:31,849 Anja: Yeah. 118 00:06:32,269 --> 00:06:38,149 And is this something like, do you find that with people who have started 119 00:06:38,149 --> 00:06:42,589 writing their own node for the first time, is the feedback, um, that it's 120 00:06:42,589 --> 00:06:46,279 easier than they anticipated, or is it harder than they anticipated? 121 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:47,779 What's the usual feedback? 122 00:06:48,379 --> 00:06:50,749 K3nan: Yeah, look, it, it really just depends on which, 123 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,399 I guess, avenue you go down. 124 00:06:52,609 --> 00:06:58,609 If you have, for example, like a, you know, a plug and play device, um, that 125 00:06:58,609 --> 00:07:02,059 you can purchase like a start nine or an umbrella or something like that 126 00:07:02,059 --> 00:07:05,749 with some instructions that can get you going, most people tend to have 127 00:07:05,749 --> 00:07:08,299 a fairly decent experience with that. 128 00:07:08,689 --> 00:07:11,119 Um, but if you decide to DIY it. 129 00:07:11,334 --> 00:07:14,934 Uh, well then, you know, collect all the parts together and, and do it 130 00:07:14,934 --> 00:07:19,344 yourself, which is more than reasonable to do and, and possible to do. 131 00:07:19,644 --> 00:07:23,964 In fact, my, my tutorials online actually teach you how to do that, but. 132 00:07:24,604 --> 00:07:26,314 That's where you're gonna, you know, there, there's a bit of a 133 00:07:26,314 --> 00:07:27,904 steeper learning curve to that. 134 00:07:28,144 --> 00:07:32,164 Um, there's gonna be, you know, a little bit more, uh, frustration I guess, 135 00:07:32,194 --> 00:07:34,324 um, as you learn and as you progress. 136 00:07:34,504 --> 00:07:37,444 But the plug and play stuff is, is pretty good these days. 137 00:07:37,654 --> 00:07:42,004 Um, and, and yeah, you can easily hook your wallet up to that Bitcoin node. 138 00:07:42,094 --> 00:07:43,294 And that's the important thing. 139 00:07:43,324 --> 00:07:47,524 It's not just about running a node, it's also hooking your wallet up to 140 00:07:47,524 --> 00:07:49,204 that Bitcoin node so that you can. 141 00:07:49,449 --> 00:07:52,809 You know, verify the transactions using that node, um, and not somebody 142 00:07:52,809 --> 00:07:56,199 else's, but also broadcasting your transactions through that node so 143 00:07:56,199 --> 00:07:57,579 that you're not using somebody else's. 144 00:07:57,789 --> 00:08:00,549 So it's really important that your wallet is also hooked up to your 145 00:08:00,549 --> 00:08:03,489 node, so there's no point in just, you know, sitting, letting it sit 146 00:08:03,489 --> 00:08:07,419 there, um, and, and turning it on and, you know, downloading the blocks. 147 00:08:07,689 --> 00:08:09,549 Um, that's of very little use. 148 00:08:09,729 --> 00:08:13,659 Uh, what, what really is of use to you personally is actually hooking 149 00:08:13,659 --> 00:08:16,539 that wallet up to, um, your own node. 150 00:08:16,934 --> 00:08:19,514 That's the thing that I, I, I'd stress the most. 151 00:08:19,604 --> 00:08:25,124 Um, and in terms of feedback, people are just, you know, I guess, uh, yeah, they, a 152 00:08:25,124 --> 00:08:27,614 range of issues come up, um, all the time. 153 00:08:27,794 --> 00:08:32,054 Uh, but generally speaking, those plug and play is, is, is very, very, um, you 154 00:08:32,054 --> 00:08:35,474 know, Schick now and they've got it to a stage where it's very, very easy to do. 155 00:08:36,044 --> 00:08:36,224 Anja: Yeah. 156 00:08:36,614 --> 00:08:40,244 And do you have an opinion on whether people should start out by 157 00:08:40,334 --> 00:08:42,944 running a full node or a prune node? 158 00:08:43,999 --> 00:08:47,059 K3nan: Um, I, I, I think you should just go straight with a full node. 159 00:08:47,209 --> 00:08:52,129 Um, I think it's going to be easier for you, uh, in, in the, in the long run. 160 00:08:52,339 --> 00:08:57,499 Um, prune nodes are great for a specific circumstance, but, 161 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,489 um, I, I, I do think that most people should just run a full, um. 162 00:09:01,874 --> 00:09:06,164 You know, full Bitcoin node, um, without the pruning, it's, it's, it's easier. 163 00:09:06,224 --> 00:09:07,394 It's, it's cleaner. 164 00:09:07,514 --> 00:09:10,814 Um, and you can explore the blockchain, um, as you wish. 165 00:09:10,994 --> 00:09:14,564 Um, you know, and, uh, it, it's just, yeah, there's a little bit 166 00:09:14,564 --> 00:09:18,704 more, um, I guess, resource required in terms of hard drive space. 167 00:09:18,999 --> 00:09:23,409 But you know, that's, that's one of the trade offs of Bitcoin is, you know, 168 00:09:23,464 --> 00:09:26,979 you you have to use some sort of your own hardware or, or you're setting 169 00:09:26,979 --> 00:09:28,359 up your own infrastructure, really. 170 00:09:28,569 --> 00:09:32,229 Uh, and this is part of setting up your own banking infrastructure and look 171 00:09:32,589 --> 00:09:39,844 it, whilst the costs are increasing in terms of SSDs and RAM in 2026, um, it 172 00:09:39,849 --> 00:09:42,339 is, it, it is still relatively cheap. 173 00:09:42,459 --> 00:09:45,549 Um, if you're thinking about this from a long-term savings. 174 00:09:46,219 --> 00:09:50,419 Plan, if you were to, for example, uh, on the, on the flip side, 175 00:09:50,419 --> 00:09:54,979 compare the costs of, for example, a property or an investment property. 176 00:09:55,309 --> 00:10:00,229 Um, running a Bitcoin node and setting up your own infrastructure 177 00:10:00,259 --> 00:10:06,319 around Bitcoin is much, much, much cheaper than an investment property. 178 00:10:06,499 --> 00:10:09,649 Um, or, you know, having to pick stocks and that sort of stuff. 179 00:10:10,009 --> 00:10:11,809 Uh, look, it's up to you. 180 00:10:11,899 --> 00:10:13,284 Um, how, how you, you know. 181 00:10:14,104 --> 00:10:18,334 Want to, I guess, um, run this node, but I, I, I, I do think that 182 00:10:18,334 --> 00:10:22,324 you should, and a full node is probably where you should start. 183 00:10:22,324 --> 00:10:25,054 And if you think that, you know, a pruned node might be better for 184 00:10:25,054 --> 00:10:26,944 you, then go down that path as well. 185 00:10:28,174 --> 00:10:28,804 Anja: Interesting. 186 00:10:29,164 --> 00:10:35,344 And so if someone is already running a node and they're way ahead of me and 187 00:10:35,344 --> 00:10:38,944 they're already doing it, what would the next natural progression be like? 188 00:10:38,944 --> 00:10:43,054 What's the next step in that journey in terms of more advanced usage? 189 00:10:44,674 --> 00:10:47,764 K3nan: Well, it, it, it really is, I guess, a choose your own adventure. 190 00:10:47,974 --> 00:10:52,474 Um, once you've set up that node, you can then move into, um, all 191 00:10:52,474 --> 00:10:54,064 the other features like lightning. 192 00:10:54,304 --> 00:10:56,374 Um, you can do, uh. 193 00:10:56,914 --> 00:11:01,894 Uh, coin joins, um, you can set up your own BTC pay server so people can pay you. 194 00:11:02,194 --> 00:11:08,314 Um, uh, yeah, there's a whole raft of things that you can look into, um, once 195 00:11:08,314 --> 00:11:12,754 you've got that Bitcoin note down, um, and, and, and you can sort of start 196 00:11:12,754 --> 00:11:15,814 building and there's applications that are available on top of that. 197 00:11:16,114 --> 00:11:19,084 Um, and so yeah, that would probably be the next rabbit hole. 198 00:11:19,084 --> 00:11:23,554 I guess you could go down, um, and then yeah, like, but. 199 00:11:24,079 --> 00:11:28,399 Look, once you've held, hold your own keys and you run your own node, 200 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:32,089 I would consider you to be somewhat of a first class citizen, meaning. 201 00:11:33,049 --> 00:11:36,859 You don't have to do all these extra things, just that in itself 202 00:11:37,129 --> 00:11:39,349 makes you very, very self-sovereign. 203 00:11:39,379 --> 00:11:41,209 You can pack up and leave at any time. 204 00:11:41,359 --> 00:11:44,839 You can take your things with you and, and move to different locations and 205 00:11:44,839 --> 00:11:48,829 you'll still have money, um, available to you no matter where you are. 206 00:11:49,099 --> 00:11:53,269 Um, and I think that's a huge, um, advantage and a huge. 207 00:11:53,734 --> 00:11:58,114 Um, you know, gift to humanity because nowhere in the world have we been able to 208 00:11:58,114 --> 00:12:03,904 do that, or, or, or, and this is, this is one of the best, um, aspects of Bitcoin. 209 00:12:04,144 --> 00:12:07,834 And I think, I think more and more people need to find out about just 210 00:12:07,924 --> 00:12:11,044 those two things rather than, you know, just keep going down that rabbit 211 00:12:11,044 --> 00:12:12,844 hole, which obviously you can do. 212 00:12:13,114 --> 00:12:16,474 Um, but I think more and more people need to sort of wake up to this idea 213 00:12:16,474 --> 00:12:20,104 that, you know, holding your own keys and running your own node is going 214 00:12:20,104 --> 00:12:22,059 to give you a lot of sovereignty. 215 00:12:25,069 --> 00:12:28,429 Speaker: Quick one for the Aussies listening hard block is offering 216 00:12:28,429 --> 00:12:31,129 a $10 signup discount right now. 217 00:12:31,369 --> 00:12:34,879 And if you're with another exchange, ask yourself this. 218 00:12:35,209 --> 00:12:38,839 Are they Australia's longest running Bitcoin only exchange? 219 00:12:39,049 --> 00:12:41,479 Because if not, maybe it's time to switch. 220 00:12:42,049 --> 00:12:48,889 Head to hard block.com au slash join slash Honest Money and 221 00:12:48,889 --> 00:12:50,809 start stacking stats today. 222 00:12:51,488 --> 00:12:52,568 Anja: Yeah, I love that. 223 00:12:52,568 --> 00:12:56,828 And one of my favorite stories to tell to beginners when I'm like hosting, 224 00:12:56,858 --> 00:13:02,828 um, meetups is basically the, the history of the Cypher Punks and why, 225 00:13:02,918 --> 00:13:07,388 you know, why they exist in the first place, why this movement exists, and. 226 00:13:07,908 --> 00:13:10,968 This also plays very nicely into the privacy element. 227 00:13:10,968 --> 00:13:15,708 Unfortunately, we live in the world where some people treat privacy as 228 00:13:15,708 --> 00:13:18,138 a crime instead of a human right. 229 00:13:18,678 --> 00:13:23,988 And the distinction I like to draw is between privacy and secrecy. 230 00:13:23,988 --> 00:13:25,368 They're very, very distinct. 231 00:13:25,638 --> 00:13:28,338 Secrecy is something you don't want anyone to know. 232 00:13:28,338 --> 00:13:31,038 Privacy, something you wanna be selective about. 233 00:13:31,038 --> 00:13:35,563 So, um, privacy is not a crime and no. 234 00:13:36,548 --> 00:13:36,848 Yeah. 235 00:13:37,268 --> 00:13:42,848 Um, there's so many aspects I wanna get into, but like, what I'm curious 236 00:13:42,848 --> 00:13:48,103 to know in your journey as well, Katan, did you start out through Bitcoin or 237 00:13:48,108 --> 00:13:49,928 did you start out through privacy? 238 00:13:49,928 --> 00:13:52,023 What was the first thing that actually drew you in? 239 00:13:53,498 --> 00:13:59,078 K3nan: Um, so what, I guess, um, Stefan and I are high school friends. 240 00:13:59,378 --> 00:14:06,218 Um, and so we went to university together as well, and he kept telling me how, you 241 00:14:06,218 --> 00:14:09,308 know, central banking is a scam and, um. 242 00:14:09,998 --> 00:14:13,298 You know that, that, you know, the, the money's fake and it's just, 243 00:14:13,298 --> 00:14:14,768 you know, it's a complete wrought. 244 00:14:15,158 --> 00:14:16,988 Um, and the government's a wrought. 245 00:14:16,988 --> 00:14:17,738 Everything's a wrought. 246 00:14:17,768 --> 00:14:17,978 Okay. 247 00:14:17,978 --> 00:14:19,358 That's, that's well and good, Stefan. 248 00:14:19,358 --> 00:14:19,868 Thank you. 249 00:14:20,138 --> 00:14:22,538 Uh, but do you have any proposed solutions? 250 00:14:22,838 --> 00:14:27,188 And at that time at university, um, he, he, he couldn't, he couldn't 251 00:14:27,188 --> 00:14:29,168 give me a, a, a, a solution. 252 00:14:29,708 --> 00:14:35,108 And then one day in 2013, he says, Hey, here's a solution. 253 00:14:35,663 --> 00:14:38,363 Maybe consider, uh, having a read of this. 254 00:14:38,453 --> 00:14:41,333 And he sends me to the white paper, he sends me to the Reddit forums. 255 00:14:41,663 --> 00:14:46,463 Um, and I just go down this huge rabbit hole, um, and, and, and this 256 00:14:46,463 --> 00:14:49,733 fire hose of information trying to weed out what's fact from fiction. 257 00:14:49,793 --> 00:14:52,343 And I was just absolutely gobsmacked at what's going on here. 258 00:14:52,973 --> 00:14:59,573 Because, um, I, I, I saw immediately that Bitcoin was like torrenting and I 259 00:14:59,573 --> 00:15:04,943 had been part of the whole Torrenting journey 'cause you know, I saw Napster 260 00:15:05,003 --> 00:15:07,793 get raided, then I saw Kaza get raided. 261 00:15:07,943 --> 00:15:09,863 Then I saw lime wire get raided. 262 00:15:09,923 --> 00:15:14,063 And so all of these centralized applications got raided. 263 00:15:14,543 --> 00:15:18,293 But the thing that kind of kept going was bit torrent and 264 00:15:18,323 --> 00:15:20,033 everyone was torrenting things. 265 00:15:20,663 --> 00:15:27,113 And so I think, um, from there I realized, hey, we are now Torrenting money. 266 00:15:27,788 --> 00:15:29,168 I don't think this can be stopped. 267 00:15:29,318 --> 00:15:34,718 And so that was kind of my angle into this and, and I sort of, you know, yeah, I, I, 268 00:15:34,723 --> 00:15:40,058 I really liked it in, in that, okay, well, we've distributed the files, IE we've 269 00:15:40,058 --> 00:15:45,518 distributed the nodes and the blockchain, and I don't think that this is, this 270 00:15:45,518 --> 00:15:47,348 is going to be tough to be shut down. 271 00:15:47,528 --> 00:15:49,788 And so that's when I sort of started getting more and more. 272 00:15:50,273 --> 00:15:50,783 Into it. 273 00:15:51,023 --> 00:15:53,453 Um, so it wasn't really from a privacy angle, it was probably 274 00:15:53,453 --> 00:15:57,773 more from, uh, I guess me being a pirate back in high school. 275 00:15:58,013 --> 00:16:01,313 Um, yeah, that's kind of what got me over the line. 276 00:16:02,273 --> 00:16:02,933 Anja: Love this. 277 00:16:03,233 --> 00:16:04,223 I love this journey. 278 00:16:04,223 --> 00:16:07,493 And tell me you're a millennial without telling me you're a millennial. 279 00:16:07,733 --> 00:16:10,493 Um, like some of those brands you're mentioning is just. 280 00:16:10,963 --> 00:16:12,523 Bringing back the good old days. 281 00:16:13,393 --> 00:16:13,693 K3nan: Yep, yep. 282 00:16:13,693 --> 00:16:14,653 There's heaps of brands out there. 283 00:16:14,653 --> 00:16:16,123 Like Winamp was another one. 284 00:16:16,123 --> 00:16:18,883 It's not exactly like, you know, but it was fantastic. 285 00:16:19,153 --> 00:16:20,173 Um, there's, yeah. 286 00:16:20,533 --> 00:16:24,193 You know, there was heaps of cool stuff that was made in, yeah, back in the day. 287 00:16:24,668 --> 00:16:28,268 Anja: But it's so wild to me that you started out by reading 288 00:16:28,388 --> 00:16:29,708 the Bitcoin White paper. 289 00:16:29,708 --> 00:16:32,498 I remember reading it and not understanding it at all. 290 00:16:32,498 --> 00:16:33,758 The first time I read it. 291 00:16:34,088 --> 00:16:38,978 Now I can actually explain it, but it took to read like several books in 292 00:16:38,978 --> 00:16:40,308 order for me to understand what it. 293 00:16:40,518 --> 00:16:41,328 Says in it. 294 00:16:41,658 --> 00:16:45,018 Um, I love how you just started with the white paper and there wasn't that 295 00:16:45,018 --> 00:16:48,558 much information or education going around, so you had to go through 296 00:16:48,558 --> 00:16:54,828 obscure Reddit forums and speak to the most, I guess, niche part of society. 297 00:16:54,828 --> 00:16:58,458 I mean, we're still niche, but that was like next level niche. 298 00:16:58,878 --> 00:17:04,428 And I love, um, that Stefan just has this, um, Austrian economics lens. 299 00:17:04,698 --> 00:17:07,668 Is, has, is this something he was also interested in before 300 00:17:07,668 --> 00:17:08,838 ever getting into Bitcoin? 301 00:17:09,223 --> 00:17:13,093 K3nan: Yeah, so Stefan was a libertarian by, I think, I don't know, 19. 302 00:17:13,513 --> 00:17:13,903 Um. 303 00:17:15,038 --> 00:17:18,848 It was, well, well before his time, and he would talk about gun rights and, 304 00:17:19,118 --> 00:17:22,238 you know, and we would all just laugh at him thinking, you know, whatever. 305 00:17:22,238 --> 00:17:23,498 Like, this guy's a lunatic. 306 00:17:23,858 --> 00:17:28,868 Um, and yeah, like he, he, he was, he was, well, well before his time, 307 00:17:29,078 --> 00:17:33,158 um, from just a, I guess a principle and philosophical perspective, but he 308 00:17:33,188 --> 00:17:37,028 was never able to articulate, okay, what's your solution to these problems? 309 00:17:37,058 --> 00:17:40,293 What, what, what can we actually do about this. 310 00:17:40,533 --> 00:17:43,353 And one of his gripes was always central banking, which we all 311 00:17:43,353 --> 00:17:45,513 learn about in, in economics. 312 00:17:45,633 --> 00:17:47,643 Um, and we did a commerce degree together. 313 00:17:48,063 --> 00:17:50,643 So it was just being, you know, sey and economics was just getting 314 00:17:50,643 --> 00:17:54,753 rammed down our throats and he was never able to really articulate. 315 00:17:55,208 --> 00:18:00,443 A, a proposed solution or a country that did even, you know, didn't 316 00:18:00,443 --> 00:18:04,643 have this type of, you know, central banking Keynesian economics lens. 317 00:18:04,913 --> 00:18:09,773 Um, and so yeah, he, it, it kind of just fell flat and then, 318 00:18:09,893 --> 00:18:11,873 you know, uh, he found Bitcoin. 319 00:18:11,873 --> 00:18:15,143 He obviously, you know, said, Hey, look, this is potentially a solution that you, 320 00:18:15,203 --> 00:18:16,823 you know, you, you might be interested in. 321 00:18:17,153 --> 00:18:18,923 And then I just went down the rabbit hole from there. 322 00:18:19,703 --> 00:18:20,333 Anja: I love that. 323 00:18:20,783 --> 00:18:21,113 Um. 324 00:18:21,668 --> 00:18:26,168 And this might be a highly speculative question, but do you believe that, um, 325 00:18:26,408 --> 00:18:31,688 as a society, as what the world, we are heading towards a decentralization, like 326 00:18:31,778 --> 00:18:35,858 almost like a center of decentralization with the internet and bitcoin, 327 00:18:35,858 --> 00:18:37,478 like all these protocols coming in? 328 00:18:37,478 --> 00:18:39,098 Or is that just my wishful thinking? 329 00:18:40,388 --> 00:18:43,418 K3nan: Look, in many ways things are being decentralized, but in, in, in 330 00:18:43,418 --> 00:18:48,758 most aspects, unfortunately, um, it is becoming, uh, more centralized 331 00:18:48,758 --> 00:18:50,678 in my opinion at this point in time. 332 00:18:50,678 --> 00:18:55,178 Now, I don't know when we start to, you know, uh, swing the other way, but 333 00:18:55,178 --> 00:19:02,438 I fear like our food systems, um, our, uh, you know, our just ways of life are 334 00:19:02,438 --> 00:19:04,388 becoming more and more controlled by. 335 00:19:04,678 --> 00:19:06,118 One or two entities. 336 00:19:06,448 --> 00:19:11,518 Um, and I don't see that heading in a, uh, look, there are, uh, you know, 337 00:19:11,548 --> 00:19:15,718 niche products out there, um, that are getting, gaining some traction. 338 00:19:16,018 --> 00:19:20,758 Um, but yeah, I think, you know, our, most of the things, uh, 339 00:19:20,788 --> 00:19:22,828 like even just in technology, um. 340 00:19:23,633 --> 00:19:28,523 Things are heading in a very, very centralized direction, um, specifically 341 00:19:28,523 --> 00:19:33,653 around ai, um, you know, robotics, all that sort of stuff is, is it looks like 342 00:19:33,833 --> 00:19:37,673 what I'm, what I'm seeing is just going to be, you know, handled by one or two 343 00:19:37,673 --> 00:19:41,723 key players and anything that pops up really just gets bought out straight away. 344 00:19:42,503 --> 00:19:45,653 Um, and, and, and then just merged into, you know, the, the, the 345 00:19:45,653 --> 00:19:47,903 big clog, uh, or, or the big cog. 346 00:19:48,083 --> 00:19:51,773 Um, yeah, so I, I, I, I'm not. 347 00:19:52,148 --> 00:19:58,178 Uh, yeah, very, um, bullish on decentralization at the moment, as much as 348 00:19:58,178 --> 00:20:00,998 I understand and care for the need of it. 349 00:20:01,298 --> 00:20:04,628 Um, but that's unfortunately the world we live in. 350 00:20:04,808 --> 00:20:06,098 I'm sorry to say. 351 00:20:07,268 --> 00:20:10,333 Anja: No, I mean, I, I can, I can definitely see that, um. 352 00:20:11,468 --> 00:20:15,248 I think this is another thing that has really helped me, you know, through 353 00:20:15,248 --> 00:20:18,908 understanding Bitcoin, looking at the long-term trends and where we're headed 354 00:20:18,908 --> 00:20:20,438 over the, like, the past century. 355 00:20:20,438 --> 00:20:24,908 And yeah, I can definitely see that, um, especially in Australia with, you 356 00:20:24,908 --> 00:20:29,378 know, the implementation or the push for digital id and then CBDC slowly 357 00:20:29,378 --> 00:20:33,938 creeping in first they're being pitched as, you know, being, um, wholesale only. 358 00:20:34,393 --> 00:20:37,663 But you know, considering that all these different countries globally 359 00:20:37,663 --> 00:20:42,193 are pushing for retail CBDC, it's not absurd to assume that that's 360 00:20:42,193 --> 00:20:43,993 going to come to Australia as well. 361 00:20:44,413 --> 00:20:47,468 Um, so yeah, I think. 362 00:20:48,428 --> 00:20:49,508 I don't know what to say on that. 363 00:20:49,508 --> 00:20:51,878 It's just depressing to, to, to think about 364 00:20:52,208 --> 00:20:53,048 K3nan: it is depressing. 365 00:20:53,108 --> 00:20:57,098 Um, but we do have tools out there if you search for them, um, 366 00:20:57,128 --> 00:21:01,238 to, to, to, you know, bring that power back to the people, I guess. 367 00:21:01,388 --> 00:21:03,008 Uh, Bitcoin is definitely one of them. 368 00:21:03,068 --> 00:21:08,763 Another one that I really, really enjoy, um, is self-hosting and, um, home labing. 369 00:21:09,518 --> 00:21:15,158 Which is taking, um, your data, um, and, and, and putting it on your own computers 370 00:21:15,158 --> 00:21:19,478 rather than on the cloud, um, which is literally just somebody else's computer. 371 00:21:19,748 --> 00:21:24,458 Um, and, you know, these sorts of things help to reduce the reliance 372 00:21:24,458 --> 00:21:28,598 on big tech for you, um, and help you stay a little bit more private. 373 00:21:28,808 --> 00:21:32,253 Um, and, and I, I do think there's technologies out there that are, you know. 374 00:21:32,843 --> 00:21:35,243 Shifting the needle, Nostr is helping. 375 00:21:35,543 --> 00:21:38,933 Um, you know, there are things that are slowly starting to 376 00:21:38,933 --> 00:21:40,403 gain more and more traction. 377 00:21:40,403 --> 00:21:41,903 So there is room for hope. 378 00:21:42,323 --> 00:21:45,533 Uh, it's not just do, it's not doom and gloom just yet. 379 00:21:45,833 --> 00:21:50,213 Um, but yeah, if you seek out, um, you know, privacy, there are pretty 380 00:21:50,213 --> 00:21:52,043 good tools out there to, to do so. 381 00:21:52,613 --> 00:21:57,083 Anja: It's worth mentioning that you'll be coming to Byron be bash. 382 00:21:57,443 --> 00:21:57,803 Um. 383 00:21:58,433 --> 00:22:03,323 Which is held on 15th to 17th of May this year, and you've got a half 384 00:22:03,323 --> 00:22:08,123 day privacy workshop on the 15th, which is a Friday, I believe that's 385 00:22:08,123 --> 00:22:09,743 gonna be really, really awesome. 386 00:22:09,803 --> 00:22:13,703 I know Northern Rivers is a very freedom minded community. 387 00:22:14,093 --> 00:22:17,453 Um, and oh, yes, that's the point I was going to make. 388 00:22:17,718 --> 00:22:19,608 Just about what it means to be human. 389 00:22:19,608 --> 00:22:23,898 This is kind of what I'm exploring at the moment, and I feel like we are 390 00:22:23,898 --> 00:22:27,978 going further and further and further away from what it means to be human. 391 00:22:27,978 --> 00:22:31,788 That yeah, we're being productized, if that's even a word. 392 00:22:32,148 --> 00:22:36,168 Um, our data's being sold, our privacy's being sold. 393 00:22:36,498 --> 00:22:38,448 Um, we, yeah, we're products. 394 00:22:38,448 --> 00:22:40,338 We're not even human anymore, so. 395 00:22:41,133 --> 00:22:45,123 Uh, there was something that you've shared in previous Bush bashes, which 396 00:22:45,123 --> 00:22:49,953 is like a checklist, and I'm slowly working my way down that, but I'm 397 00:22:49,953 --> 00:22:53,703 so embarrassed to say that I used to be really, really bad with this. 398 00:22:54,503 --> 00:22:58,883 Even just doing one thing, which is getting a professional password 399 00:22:58,883 --> 00:23:02,873 manager that's very secure, and having unique passwords for everything 400 00:23:03,143 --> 00:23:07,943 has been a complete game changer for me, and I can't believe that 401 00:23:07,943 --> 00:23:09,803 this is something I used to risk. 402 00:23:09,803 --> 00:23:14,848 Now, in hindsight, um, I also stopped using Microsoft. 403 00:23:15,923 --> 00:23:16,553 K3nan: Fantastic. 404 00:23:17,213 --> 00:23:20,993 Anja: Do you wanna just quickly tell the listeners why that is important? 405 00:23:21,683 --> 00:23:27,503 K3nan: Yeah, look, I think, um, there are Microsoft in particular or just 406 00:23:27,503 --> 00:23:31,733 big tech in general, um, there's this sort of push to sort of invade your 407 00:23:31,733 --> 00:23:38,033 privacy and one of the things that Microsoft did just recently was enabled 408 00:23:38,033 --> 00:23:40,373 this function called Microsoft Recall. 409 00:23:41,438 --> 00:23:46,238 Whereby they would take screenshots at period periodic times of 410 00:23:46,238 --> 00:23:50,318 your computer, um, and then send them off to Microsoft servers. 411 00:23:50,738 --> 00:23:56,048 Um, now this is a huge, uh, privacy, um, and security risk. 412 00:23:56,348 --> 00:23:59,768 And so I think they've, that they have definitely walked that back. 413 00:23:59,768 --> 00:24:02,858 But they said that, you know, we want to use this for, you know, training 414 00:24:02,858 --> 00:24:07,718 our models, our AI models and LLMs, um, to be able to, to, to do this. 415 00:24:07,928 --> 00:24:09,188 Um, and so that's why they've. 416 00:24:09,213 --> 00:24:10,383 Gone ahead and done it. 417 00:24:10,623 --> 00:24:14,133 Now, the fact that they even thought that this was a good idea 418 00:24:14,463 --> 00:24:16,413 is just alarm bells all round. 419 00:24:16,743 --> 00:24:19,813 Um, and so I think, you know. 420 00:24:20,678 --> 00:24:23,918 We should be moving away from, you know, Microsoft products. 421 00:24:24,008 --> 00:24:30,008 Um, and, you know, uh, these big tech companies, Google, um, Facebook 422 00:24:30,218 --> 00:24:33,758 that really just, you know, you have a lot of data to protect here. 423 00:24:33,758 --> 00:24:36,068 You've got your contacts, you've got your calendar. 424 00:24:36,338 --> 00:24:39,428 So that's gonna mean where you're gonna be, who you're gonna be with. 425 00:24:39,698 --> 00:24:40,298 Um. 426 00:24:40,763 --> 00:24:43,343 You, they've got, you know, access to your emails. 427 00:24:43,373 --> 00:24:46,913 So if you've booked a flight or you've booked some accommodation, or you've 428 00:24:46,913 --> 00:24:51,983 paid your school fees, um, they know a lot about you just by having your 429 00:24:51,983 --> 00:24:56,453 Google account, your GPS data, they've got a track of, you know, where you've 430 00:24:56,453 --> 00:24:58,763 been, when, what time of the day. 431 00:24:59,033 --> 00:24:59,543 Um. 432 00:25:00,098 --> 00:25:04,328 Photos they've got, um, of you and your children, um, 433 00:25:04,508 --> 00:25:06,518 important documents, tax returns. 434 00:25:06,518 --> 00:25:07,748 They know how much you earn. 435 00:25:08,108 --> 00:25:12,278 Uh, they've got your search history, um, they've got your IP address. 436 00:25:12,398 --> 00:25:15,248 Uh, they've got potentially even identity information, scans of 437 00:25:15,248 --> 00:25:20,108 passports, birth certificates, um, you know, who like, who knows what 438 00:25:20,108 --> 00:25:21,878 you've uploaded to, to your cloud. 439 00:25:22,148 --> 00:25:24,968 Um, and so with all of this information. 440 00:25:25,568 --> 00:25:28,688 You can really, really put the screws on somebody. 441 00:25:28,868 --> 00:25:32,588 Um, and, and you're just giving that away for free in one nice, 442 00:25:32,708 --> 00:25:37,208 neat bow, uh, on, on Google server. 443 00:25:37,568 --> 00:25:42,188 It, it just, it, it's a no brainer to start moving away from, you 444 00:25:42,188 --> 00:25:43,658 know, these centralized services. 445 00:25:43,778 --> 00:25:44,858 Microsoft, Google. 446 00:25:45,158 --> 00:25:45,668 Um. 447 00:25:46,163 --> 00:25:49,253 To some extent, even Apple, because they're closed source, uh, you can't 448 00:25:49,253 --> 00:25:50,693 really verify what they're doing. 449 00:25:50,993 --> 00:25:56,243 Um, and so, you know, look, whilst Apple, I guess, you know, that they make, they, 450 00:25:56,273 --> 00:26:00,653 they make the best convenient products on the market, and I'm not gonna lie, 451 00:26:00,653 --> 00:26:04,163 they have billions of dollars worth of, you know, um, capital and they have 452 00:26:04,163 --> 00:26:05,903 the best engineers working for them. 453 00:26:06,053 --> 00:26:09,743 So they're obviously going to make the best products, but at the same time. 454 00:26:10,313 --> 00:26:11,633 What are they doing with that data? 455 00:26:11,663 --> 00:26:14,843 Can we ve verify that that's what they're only doing? 456 00:26:15,233 --> 00:26:18,773 And it, it, it's just very difficult to make that judgment call. 457 00:26:19,163 --> 00:26:23,333 Um, and so this is why I think digital security privacy sort 458 00:26:23,333 --> 00:26:25,463 of comes, or, or matters. 459 00:26:25,463 --> 00:26:28,103 And that's what I'll be talking about at the Bush Bash in Byron. 460 00:26:28,463 --> 00:26:30,623 Um, where, you know, I, I, I'll be. 461 00:26:31,078 --> 00:26:35,093 You, you know, demonstrating some of the, um, the stories that have gone 462 00:26:35,093 --> 00:26:39,383 down, um, uh, you know, with, with these big tech companies and, and 463 00:26:39,383 --> 00:26:40,763 what they're doing behind the scenes. 464 00:26:41,153 --> 00:26:44,003 Um, I'll just give one in one example. 465 00:26:44,603 --> 00:26:50,298 There was this guy who took a photo for a doctor of his child's groin area. 466 00:26:50,918 --> 00:26:51,138 No. 467 00:26:51,878 --> 00:26:53,798 And it was an innocent photo. 468 00:26:53,858 --> 00:26:58,988 It got backed up to Google's cloud and uh, they, they, they scanned 469 00:26:58,988 --> 00:27:00,428 that, oh, Google scanned it. 470 00:27:00,698 --> 00:27:02,438 They shut his account down. 471 00:27:02,618 --> 00:27:08,048 That's 10 to 15 years worth of photos, emails, everything gone. 472 00:27:08,678 --> 00:27:11,768 And on top of that, they, um, notified the police. 473 00:27:11,768 --> 00:27:14,138 So the police came knocking on his door. 474 00:27:14,438 --> 00:27:15,908 Um, so. 475 00:27:16,553 --> 00:27:22,763 All of this over just, you know, a photo that was innocently for a doctor, 476 00:27:22,973 --> 00:27:26,123 uh, to have a look at a particular rash that was in a groin area of 477 00:27:26,123 --> 00:27:30,533 a child, uh, that was considered, you know, um, abusive material. 478 00:27:30,743 --> 00:27:36,713 And then he had his, you, uh, his, his account completely locked out. 479 00:27:37,103 --> 00:27:40,553 Um, and, you know, these, these stories do occur. 480 00:27:41,393 --> 00:27:44,213 I'm not suggesting, you know, look with these stories as well. 481 00:27:45,203 --> 00:27:48,803 I would think you, you don't have to sort of, I guess, decipher whether 482 00:27:48,803 --> 00:27:51,023 this is a true or fictional story. 483 00:27:51,803 --> 00:27:55,493 The, the question that really needs to be asked is, can this happen? 484 00:27:55,733 --> 00:28:00,533 Can Google lock me out of my account one day for whatever arbitrary reason? 485 00:28:01,208 --> 00:28:05,798 And I've lost all of that data of, you know, 10, 15, 20 years worth of history. 486 00:28:06,098 --> 00:28:09,518 And that's something that you need to protect and make sure that you 487 00:28:09,518 --> 00:28:13,748 sort of, um, have a backup plan in the event that that does eventuate. 488 00:28:14,138 --> 00:28:17,378 Um, so th those are the types of topics that I'll be talking about and sharing. 489 00:28:17,648 --> 00:28:22,448 Um, a and also providing solutions around how to do this. 490 00:28:23,419 --> 00:28:28,039 Speaker 4: Need a way to sign, verify and secure your Bitcoin Australia's 491 00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:29,629 one-stop shop for Bitcoiners. 492 00:28:29,779 --> 00:28:34,219 Has you covered from signing devices, nodes, and backup solutions? 493 00:28:34,519 --> 00:28:39,544 To bid access day decor and apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au. 494 00:28:43,099 --> 00:28:47,809 Anja: Yeah, my best friend, she's very privacy, um, minded, even though she's 495 00:28:47,809 --> 00:28:51,679 never kind of been a very technical person, but she's, she works, um, as 496 00:28:51,679 --> 00:28:56,659 a psychologist for the Department of Corrective Services or well used to, 497 00:28:56,989 --> 00:29:03,824 um, I. And she's just always refused to post any pictures of her kids online. 498 00:29:04,124 --> 00:29:07,304 Um, particularly 'cause she's come across some very grim statistics of 499 00:29:07,304 --> 00:29:10,724 how those pictures are used, even if, you know the child is fully clothed. 500 00:29:11,084 --> 00:29:14,114 So that's just really, really scary to think what kind of a world we 501 00:29:14,114 --> 00:29:18,584 live in and how, um, we take, tend to take a lot of things for granted 502 00:29:18,584 --> 00:29:23,174 and assume, you know, that we're safe out there when really we're not. 503 00:29:23,984 --> 00:29:24,644 Um. 504 00:29:25,849 --> 00:29:31,639 But yeah, in terms of like what would the most basic steps a person could 505 00:29:31,639 --> 00:29:36,949 do to start separating themselves from just being treated like a product, a 506 00:29:36,949 --> 00:29:43,099 tool for advertising, a tool for, you know, large language models, like what 507 00:29:43,099 --> 00:29:45,439 can we slowly start doing like today? 508 00:29:45,889 --> 00:29:46,309 Um. 509 00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:50,269 K3nan: Okay, so there's, I have a checklist on my website, um, 510 00:29:50,299 --> 00:29:54,469 K three TA n.com, which you obviously alluded to, um, earlier. 511 00:29:55,009 --> 00:29:58,309 Um, now that checklist kind of goes through some basic things 512 00:29:58,309 --> 00:30:00,799 that you can do to improve your privacy when you're online. 513 00:30:01,069 --> 00:30:04,879 Some will take five minutes, some are gonna, unfortunately take you five years. 514 00:30:05,179 --> 00:30:11,839 De tangly or untangling from the Google Web is not a very, uh, quick process. 515 00:30:11,989 --> 00:30:15,649 It's not going to be a five minute job that might even take you five years to do. 516 00:30:16,309 --> 00:30:21,109 But, um, some of the things that you can do, for example, is here in Australia. 517 00:30:21,874 --> 00:30:27,964 Um, your internet service provider, um, has this obligation to the government 518 00:30:28,264 --> 00:30:34,384 to collect da, um, metadata on your account, uh, for up to two years. 519 00:30:34,714 --> 00:30:38,554 And what that metadata is, is loosely defined, but we can mean, 520 00:30:38,704 --> 00:30:42,454 we can basically mean it to mean what websites you go to the link. 521 00:30:42,544 --> 00:30:42,934 Okay. 522 00:30:43,594 --> 00:30:48,004 And that is now recorded on your account for up to two years. 523 00:30:48,409 --> 00:30:52,579 If you use their DNS server, um, so. 524 00:30:53,704 --> 00:30:58,594 The way that you would, um, bypass that is a quick, um, setting in your 525 00:30:58,594 --> 00:31:04,384 router to, instead of the internet service provider's, DNS server, you 526 00:31:04,384 --> 00:31:09,514 would use, um, a a, an alternative, a uh, one is called Quad nine. 527 00:31:09,574 --> 00:31:14,884 So instead of, you know, um, using the, the ISPs uh, IP address there for 528 00:31:14,884 --> 00:31:18,784 their DNS you would use 9.9 0.9 0.9. 529 00:31:18,784 --> 00:31:18,794 Mm-hmm. 530 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:19,019 Um. 531 00:31:19,734 --> 00:31:23,424 That will open up the internet for you where there are no logs that are 532 00:31:23,424 --> 00:31:30,324 able to be kept, but also, um, there, uh, by your internet service provider. 533 00:31:30,624 --> 00:31:34,464 Um, but also it, it bypasses any censorship, um, that 534 00:31:34,464 --> 00:31:35,274 the Australian government. 535 00:31:35,409 --> 00:31:40,359 Um, puts on, um, or, or mandates, ISPs, uh, put on, um, 536 00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:41,409 on your internet connection. 537 00:31:41,589 --> 00:31:44,499 So it's a very, very quick fix that you can just route around. 538 00:31:44,769 --> 00:31:47,649 So that's one example of a five minute thing that you can 539 00:31:47,649 --> 00:31:49,389 do to improve your privacy. 540 00:31:50,194 --> 00:31:55,294 Couple that with a VPN, again, another five minute thing that you can do to 541 00:31:55,294 --> 00:32:01,834 install A VPN, um, I would recommend something like IVPN, Malva, uh, proton, 542 00:32:01,954 --> 00:32:07,744 um, th these are, you know, well reputable, um, VPN companies and you 543 00:32:07,744 --> 00:32:12,004 can potentially just download their app, pay the subscription, and you get 544 00:32:12,004 --> 00:32:14,944 a better freer, um, internet experience. 545 00:32:15,334 --> 00:32:15,664 Um. 546 00:32:16,684 --> 00:32:20,884 And so yeah, that's some basic things that you can do. 547 00:32:21,184 --> 00:32:27,064 Um, and like you said earlier, setting up a password manager I think is probably 548 00:32:27,214 --> 00:32:30,874 one of the best things that you should be, or, or people should be doing rather than 549 00:32:30,874 --> 00:32:34,234 typing in, um, passwords into websites. 550 00:32:34,444 --> 00:32:36,994 Um, because you might click a, a link. 551 00:32:37,609 --> 00:32:41,659 And it will, you know, look like, you know, the Australian, 552 00:32:41,719 --> 00:32:43,309 you know, myGov website. 553 00:32:43,579 --> 00:32:46,189 But in fact what you've done is you've just put in your username 554 00:32:46,189 --> 00:32:47,809 and password into a portal. 555 00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:53,059 Um, uh, that is not exactly, um, the official government's website 556 00:32:53,059 --> 00:32:53,934 when you need to access it. 557 00:32:54,754 --> 00:32:57,004 Or any other, you know, website that you need to access. 558 00:32:57,424 --> 00:33:01,444 And so they can, you know, take your login credentials and log in that way. 559 00:33:01,504 --> 00:33:07,054 And then if you're using the same password, they'll check, okay, well let's, 560 00:33:07,114 --> 00:33:12,094 let's try, if that same password goes to his Google account, or let's go see what's 561 00:33:12,094 --> 00:33:13,834 going on with their Facebook account. 562 00:33:14,179 --> 00:33:15,949 And so they'll use that password. 563 00:33:15,949 --> 00:33:20,119 And if you've continuously used the same password once, yeah, it, it, it 564 00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:26,749 becomes very, very, um, yeah, it, it's not gonna be a, a good outcome for you. 565 00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:30,289 Um, and so that's why I recommend using a password manager. 566 00:33:30,619 --> 00:33:36,049 Um, so those are, you know, quick fixes that you can do, uh, to, to 567 00:33:36,049 --> 00:33:39,349 just, you know, improve your privacy, improve your security as well. 568 00:33:39,829 --> 00:33:40,039 Anja: Yep. 569 00:33:40,219 --> 00:33:43,309 And I assume you don't mean a, like a password manager that's already 570 00:33:43,309 --> 00:33:46,909 available in Google or Microsoft that, you know, comes up with a prompt saying, 571 00:33:46,909 --> 00:33:48,109 do you wanna say it, this password? 572 00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:49,549 K3nan: No, no, no. 573 00:33:49,609 --> 00:33:51,109 Um, I, I recommend Bit Warden. 574 00:33:51,109 --> 00:33:53,089 I really like, um, what they're doing. 575 00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:57,169 Uh, it's open source, it's a really good password manager, and it's well vetted. 576 00:33:57,169 --> 00:33:59,059 It's got security audits, all that sort of stuff. 577 00:33:59,089 --> 00:34:01,609 It's, it's, it's very, very good and I would recommend that. 578 00:34:01,609 --> 00:34:03,784 And, and there are ways which I'll show you. 579 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:08,169 Again, I'll demonstrate all of this, um, in, in, in the workshop that I'm, I'm, 580 00:34:08,169 --> 00:34:11,739 I'm hosting about how you can quickly just add that into your browser and then 581 00:34:11,739 --> 00:34:15,369 you'll be able to add that onto your phone as well and quickly be able to sort of 582 00:34:15,549 --> 00:34:19,539 push up your usernames and passwords and enter them into websites, um, accordingly. 583 00:34:19,539 --> 00:34:21,729 So it's, it's all very Yeah. 584 00:34:21,939 --> 00:34:23,109 It, it, it is. 585 00:34:23,139 --> 00:34:23,319 Yeah. 586 00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:24,399 I, I would recommend. 587 00:34:24,949 --> 00:34:29,389 You know, um, using a separate password manager to the one that's in your browser. 588 00:34:29,869 --> 00:34:30,109 Anja: Yeah. 589 00:34:30,589 --> 00:34:34,369 And just going back to what you said about the internet service providers, 590 00:34:34,369 --> 00:34:40,099 do you know whether the data that's meant to be kept for two years is 591 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,044 shared with the government or is it more on a case by case basis? 592 00:34:44,044 --> 00:34:47,119 If they suspect you of doing something wrong, then they're 593 00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:48,529 going to request that data? 594 00:34:48,529 --> 00:34:51,529 Or is it just kind of like used to funnel the surveillance? 595 00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:57,979 K3nan: That that we don't actually know, but I assume, and what they say is that 596 00:34:57,979 --> 00:35:00,349 it will be used in the event of something. 597 00:35:00,409 --> 00:35:02,719 If you've done something, then they can look up your search 598 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,189 history if they wanted to. 599 00:35:04,669 --> 00:35:08,749 Um, now A VPN and a separate DNS would bypass all of that. 600 00:35:08,749 --> 00:35:14,014 So you wouldn't really see much if, if someone was to request, or, or, 601 00:35:14,014 --> 00:35:16,939 or if a government department was to request for that information. 602 00:35:17,209 --> 00:35:20,569 Um, but they are required to, I think just keep the logs. 603 00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,599 Um, uh, for up to two years. 604 00:35:23,629 --> 00:35:27,859 That's what ISPs are mandated to do, and I don't think they're mandated to 605 00:35:27,859 --> 00:35:29,749 send it periodically to the government. 606 00:35:29,989 --> 00:35:31,579 Um, not yet anyway. 607 00:35:31,789 --> 00:35:36,829 And yeah, that's what I, that's my understanding as of now. 608 00:35:37,297 --> 00:35:39,457 Speaker 2: Not your keys, not your coins. 609 00:35:39,997 --> 00:35:44,077 If you're holding Bitcoin, your self custody setup needs to be done right. 610 00:35:44,827 --> 00:35:49,327 Mine racks delivers paranoia grade security so that you can sleep at night 611 00:35:49,327 --> 00:35:51,367 knowing that your money is protected. 612 00:35:52,237 --> 00:35:55,117 Take control and secure your money the honest way. 613 00:35:55,507 --> 00:35:58,897 Head to mine racks.com/honest Money. 614 00:36:00,164 --> 00:36:00,434 Anja: Yeah. 615 00:36:00,734 --> 00:36:05,324 And do you think we in Australia, headed in the direction where 616 00:36:05,354 --> 00:36:06,944 VPNs are going to be banned? 617 00:36:07,994 --> 00:36:09,314 K3nan: I don't think they're gonna be banned. 618 00:36:09,584 --> 00:36:14,864 Um, I think what will happen is they will, they will force VPN companies 619 00:36:15,164 --> 00:36:19,154 to, uh, KYC, um, before you buy. 620 00:36:19,514 --> 00:36:24,284 So at that point, um, I think that the, the, yeah, exactly. 621 00:36:24,284 --> 00:36:29,024 So how they enforce that again, once, you know, like how do 622 00:36:29,024 --> 00:36:30,344 they go about enforcing that? 623 00:36:30,434 --> 00:36:32,774 That's up for, you know, debate and. 624 00:36:33,449 --> 00:36:37,499 But I, I think where, like, I think in the UK they're already looking at 625 00:36:37,499 --> 00:36:42,509 that, um, whereby they're considering putting a, a, an ID check before you 626 00:36:42,509 --> 00:36:45,059 can even buy A VPN, um, in the uk. 627 00:36:45,059 --> 00:36:48,089 So yeah, look, they're coming after the tools. 628 00:36:48,089 --> 00:36:51,419 They don't like them obviously, um, and they're coming after them. 629 00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:53,969 And so we just need to keep routing around it. 630 00:36:54,059 --> 00:36:59,489 Um, maybe, maybe tour becomes the next, you know, uh, uh, thing. 631 00:37:00,464 --> 00:37:03,254 Anja: Well, that's the thing, it kind of almost feels like a fruitless 632 00:37:03,254 --> 00:37:08,834 endeavor because I, I guess people who have the skillset will always 633 00:37:08,834 --> 00:37:12,044 evolve it, um, for this very reason. 634 00:37:12,044 --> 00:37:15,734 They wanna protect privacy, they wanna protect what it means to be human. 635 00:37:15,734 --> 00:37:18,494 They wanna, you know, preserve some dignity. 636 00:37:18,974 --> 00:37:23,774 Um, so yeah, it's, it's just wild what's happening out there. 637 00:37:23,774 --> 00:37:26,594 And it will be interesting to see, like, there's already a 638 00:37:26,594 --> 00:37:28,334 part of me that can't believe. 639 00:37:28,919 --> 00:37:32,819 That everything that's happening in our lifetime is happening. 640 00:37:33,179 --> 00:37:36,509 Like what is going on with the world right now, Katar? 641 00:37:37,139 --> 00:37:37,259 K3nan: Yeah. 642 00:37:37,259 --> 00:37:43,049 Look, I, I, I don't have the, um, exact, uh, picture or the exact, I guess, 643 00:37:43,049 --> 00:37:48,209 um, solutions either, uh, but it's not headed in the direction that you would 644 00:37:48,209 --> 00:37:50,939 see for human flourishing to advance. 645 00:37:51,359 --> 00:37:56,849 Um, I just, I don't see that, um, from, you know, I, I think we're very, very 646 00:37:56,849 --> 00:38:03,149 much coasting along, um, rather than, you know, but there are certain segments 647 00:38:03,149 --> 00:38:07,289 where we are, you know, advancing and pushing and they're just ending up, 648 00:38:07,349 --> 00:38:09,419 you know, destroying humanity as well. 649 00:38:09,629 --> 00:38:10,674 So I look. 650 00:38:11,504 --> 00:38:16,244 I just, I, I don't have all the solutions unfortunately, and 651 00:38:16,244 --> 00:38:17,504 there's a lot of big problems. 652 00:38:17,744 --> 00:38:24,524 Um, the only ones that I sort of fix or, or fixate on is really just, um, bitcoin, 653 00:38:24,584 --> 00:38:30,074 self-hosting things within my own control as a individual of how I can sort of 654 00:38:30,104 --> 00:38:34,574 remove myself from this, this, this clown world that we're seeing at the moment. 655 00:38:35,549 --> 00:38:36,029 Anja: Yeah. 656 00:38:36,149 --> 00:38:36,899 I love that. 657 00:38:37,259 --> 00:38:41,189 Well, let's, you know, head towards something a little bit more positive. 658 00:38:41,459 --> 00:38:43,649 I'd love to hear the story. 659 00:38:43,649 --> 00:38:47,639 I've already heard the story, but I want my listeners to hear, um, how 660 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:51,809 you've managed to sort of influence your colleagues that used to work with, 661 00:38:51,809 --> 00:38:55,439 to start, you know, thinking about Bitcoin and privacy a little bit more. 662 00:38:55,769 --> 00:38:57,419 Um, yeah, tell me about 663 00:38:58,049 --> 00:38:59,669 K3nan: Yeah, look, I, I mean, look. 664 00:39:00,319 --> 00:39:03,259 Uh, I, I've always been obsessed about Bitcoin. 665 00:39:03,379 --> 00:39:06,979 Um, ever since I guess 2013, I was very, very much obsessed. 666 00:39:06,979 --> 00:39:09,829 I was screaming it off the rooftops for a very, very long time. 667 00:39:10,339 --> 00:39:13,729 Um, and also whilst I was sort of, you know, working, um, in 668 00:39:13,729 --> 00:39:14,569 the, in the corporate sphere. 669 00:39:15,449 --> 00:39:18,869 Um, I would, I would just, you know, drop hints and then those hints would 670 00:39:18,869 --> 00:39:20,879 become, you know, heated conversations. 671 00:39:21,179 --> 00:39:27,629 Um, and yeah, you know, look, I, I think it became to a point where, um, 672 00:39:27,749 --> 00:39:31,739 yeah, I, I, I think they all kind of understood what Bitcoin represented, 673 00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:36,149 um, and what it, what it does and why it's required and why it's needed. 674 00:39:36,539 --> 00:39:41,459 Um, and on, on my farewell gift, when I sort of eventually resigned from that 675 00:39:41,459 --> 00:39:43,619 position, um, they kind of just gave me. 676 00:39:43,924 --> 00:39:48,004 A, um, a, a, you know, a very, very nice card. 677 00:39:48,274 --> 00:39:52,384 Um, but also some t-shirts that said, I hate to say I told you so, but I told you 678 00:39:52,384 --> 00:39:56,434 so, um, uh, with a big Bitcoin logo on it. 679 00:39:56,704 --> 00:40:00,964 Um, so I, I received some very, very good, um, merchandise from them. 680 00:40:01,234 --> 00:40:04,924 Um, you know, and, and also like when, when I had my child. 681 00:40:05,714 --> 00:40:10,004 Um, they gave me a dummy and the dummy had a Bitcoin logo on it as well. 682 00:40:10,454 --> 00:40:10,694 Excellent. 683 00:40:10,784 --> 00:40:15,674 And so, you know, towards the end, you know, that they kind of really, 684 00:40:15,674 --> 00:40:20,834 really, um, were very, very, uh, they, they understood the importance 685 00:40:20,834 --> 00:40:24,134 of Bitcoin and why, um, you know, uh, 686 00:40:26,219 --> 00:40:27,554 why it's a tool for freedom, I guess. 687 00:40:28,034 --> 00:40:28,364 Anja: Mm-hmm. 688 00:40:28,874 --> 00:40:29,354 Yeah. 689 00:40:29,444 --> 00:40:32,834 This is, I love sharing stories like this on my podcast because this is 690 00:40:32,834 --> 00:40:34,544 what I find very inspiring, like. 691 00:40:35,354 --> 00:40:38,804 There's still very few of us in Australia that really care about this as a 692 00:40:38,804 --> 00:40:44,834 movement and having those conversations with, I guess, the normies, um, is so 693 00:40:44,834 --> 00:40:49,214 important and, and just starting to move that needle a little bit by little bit 694 00:40:49,214 --> 00:40:54,104 and helping them just take a look at it, make up your own mind once you've 695 00:40:54,104 --> 00:40:59,144 done some study, once you've done some reading, and yeah, like it's, it's, 696 00:40:59,144 --> 00:41:00,674 it's such a wonderful thing to do. 697 00:41:00,674 --> 00:41:02,894 Like, for example, on LinkedIn. 698 00:41:03,704 --> 00:41:08,449 I've been shit posting a little bit with, um, for the last, since 2014. 699 00:41:09,469 --> 00:41:10,009 In the beginning. 700 00:41:11,009 --> 00:41:18,119 2014 in 2015, I would barely get any likes from, um, the people I used to work with. 701 00:41:18,419 --> 00:41:19,889 And I thought that's a bit strange. 702 00:41:19,889 --> 00:41:23,159 But I did have a few of my ex-colleagues reach out to say, 703 00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:25,019 Hey, Anja, I really like Bitcoin. 704 00:41:25,019 --> 00:41:26,429 I've been in it for a while. 705 00:41:26,789 --> 00:41:29,849 Um, but they never liked my public posts because. 706 00:41:29,984 --> 00:41:33,104 Again, the stigma that's surrounded, they just don't wanna be seen as 707 00:41:33,104 --> 00:41:34,874 the weird one in their office. 708 00:41:34,964 --> 00:41:36,464 Um, so that's where we're still at. 709 00:41:36,494 --> 00:41:41,654 But I have noticed recently people slowly starting to like, it, slowly starting 710 00:41:41,654 --> 00:41:45,584 to come out of the word work, and I'm just trying to help be that person 711 00:41:45,584 --> 00:41:47,204 where it's like, if I can talk about it. 712 00:41:48,074 --> 00:41:49,994 Maybe you can do so. 713 00:41:50,234 --> 00:41:56,654 I can't wait to see, um, Bitcoin become a, like a topic on LinkedIn the way AI is. 714 00:41:56,834 --> 00:42:01,274 It was, you know, AI was treated as a fringe weird thing 10, 15 years ago. 715 00:42:01,274 --> 00:42:05,534 Even though that technology did exist, it was very much shared in very niche 716 00:42:05,534 --> 00:42:10,724 circles until chat GBT came out and then, you know, the whole floodgates 717 00:42:10,724 --> 00:42:12,329 opened and now everyone's an AI ex. 718 00:42:12,604 --> 00:42:12,844 Bed. 719 00:42:13,474 --> 00:42:18,334 Um, so I really hope to see that same kind of wave happen with Bitcoin. 720 00:42:18,364 --> 00:42:18,904 We'll see. 721 00:42:19,384 --> 00:42:19,624 We'll see. 722 00:42:20,549 --> 00:42:21,209 K3nan: Yes, we will. 723 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:22,799 Um, and I'm sure it's coming. 724 00:42:23,129 --> 00:42:27,029 Um, it's just a matter of time, uh, because you know, at some 725 00:42:27,029 --> 00:42:30,779 point the print, the printer is gonna get turned on and then people 726 00:42:30,779 --> 00:42:34,139 are gonna have to ask themselves, well, what can we do about this? 727 00:42:34,439 --> 00:42:36,479 Uh, and then the can just keeps kicking down. 728 00:42:36,479 --> 00:42:42,869 So at some point I am certain that, uh, a conversation, a, an international 729 00:42:42,869 --> 00:42:44,969 conversation around solutions to. 730 00:42:45,479 --> 00:42:48,299 Printing money, uh, is going to be held. 731 00:42:48,539 --> 00:42:53,519 And whether we end up on cbdc or we end up on Bitcoin, um, that's going 732 00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:54,809 to be the battle, in my opinion. 733 00:42:54,869 --> 00:42:55,139 Anja: Yeah. 734 00:42:55,469 --> 00:42:59,819 And I really can't foresee what's gonna happen, whether we're going to have both 735 00:42:59,819 --> 00:43:02,819 and, you know, whether I, I imagine. 736 00:43:03,114 --> 00:43:05,544 Different countries will respond differently. 737 00:43:05,604 --> 00:43:09,144 I think some countries that are more authoritarian will 738 00:43:09,174 --> 00:43:11,574 literally block the OnRamps. 739 00:43:11,574 --> 00:43:15,804 They won't allow you to trade your fiat for Bitcoin. 740 00:43:16,284 --> 00:43:19,044 Other countries might severely restrict it. 741 00:43:19,494 --> 00:43:23,184 Um, other countries might moderate it like. 742 00:43:23,399 --> 00:43:27,899 X amount of dollars per month, um, to save the system. 743 00:43:28,379 --> 00:43:29,939 Um, it'll be really interesting. 744 00:43:29,939 --> 00:43:31,139 It'll be really interesting. 745 00:43:31,169 --> 00:43:36,809 And yeah, I guess all we can do is spread awareness and help people 746 00:43:36,809 --> 00:43:40,739 understand, you know, both sides of the story and make up their own mind 747 00:43:40,739 --> 00:43:42,329 or what they feel is right for them. 748 00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:44,009 K3nan: Absolutely. 749 00:43:44,099 --> 00:43:47,609 Um, it's time to, yeah, just try and win as many hearts and minds as possible. 750 00:43:48,494 --> 00:43:50,354 Anja: Yeah, well, I can't have you. 751 00:43:50,414 --> 00:43:52,874 I can't wait to see you in, in Byron Bay. 752 00:43:52,874 --> 00:43:54,614 It's gonna be super, super exciting. 753 00:43:54,644 --> 00:43:58,064 Um, I think that workshop is going to have great attendance. 754 00:43:58,274 --> 00:44:00,704 I'm hoping my parents will make it down as well. 755 00:44:00,944 --> 00:44:02,204 Um, but yeah. 756 00:44:02,234 --> 00:44:04,989 Um, do you have any final words that you'd like to share with the audience? 757 00:44:06,299 --> 00:44:09,689 K3nan: Yeah, so look, I think, um, if you wanna follow me, um, 758 00:44:09,689 --> 00:44:12,119 I'm under K three tn on Twitter. 759 00:44:12,419 --> 00:44:18,779 Um, and my websites are K three tn.com and ministry of node.com au as well. 760 00:44:19,019 --> 00:44:22,109 Um, and so yeah, if you'd like to check out my content, you can find 761 00:44:22,109 --> 00:44:23,729 all of the links through there. 762 00:44:24,569 --> 00:44:24,809 Anja: Yep. 763 00:44:24,899 --> 00:44:26,819 And I'll drop it in the show notes as well. 764 00:44:26,819 --> 00:44:28,739 Thank you so much for your time, Katan. 765 00:44:29,099 --> 00:44:29,929 K3nan: No worries, Anja. 766 00:44:29,969 --> 00:44:30,539 Great to be here. 767 00:44:30,542 --> 00:44:33,032 Speaker 5: still here you are one of the good ones. 768 00:44:33,512 --> 00:44:36,152 We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. 769 00:44:36,512 --> 00:44:40,232 If you enjoy how we cut through the noise, consider supporting us 770 00:44:40,232 --> 00:44:42,482 directly via the Lightning QR code. 771 00:44:42,992 --> 00:44:45,032 Got a question or a thought to share? 772 00:44:45,422 --> 00:44:46,772 Comments are wide open. 773 00:44:47,072 --> 00:44:48,302 We'd love to hear from you. 774 00:44:48,412 --> 00:44:53,692 For bonus content and updates, follow us on socials at Honest Money Show. 775 00:44:54,742 --> 00:44:59,572 Until next week, take care of yourself and your money and stay decentralized.