1 01:00:00,500 --> 01:00:02,000 Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. 2 01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:04,750 Today we have Jason McCreary, 3 01:00:05,041 --> 01:00:07,916 aka JMac, aka Gonedark, 4 01:00:08,375 --> 01:00:09,291 who's the creator of 5 01:00:09,291 --> 01:00:11,666 Laravel Shift, many awesome pull requests 6 01:00:11,666 --> 01:00:13,291 to Laravel and much more. 7 01:00:13,666 --> 01:00:14,791 Welcome to the show, Jason. 8 01:00:15,666 --> 01:00:16,125 Thank you. 9 01:00:17,625 --> 01:00:19,750 Yes. I guess start off with, 10 01:00:20,500 --> 01:00:22,083 why don't we have three names? 11 01:00:22,750 --> 01:00:24,875 You couldn't settle on one, 12 01:00:24,875 --> 01:00:25,500 you're just like, "I'm 13 01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:26,208 going to have all these." 14 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:28,791 Jason McCreary, I guess, 15 01:00:28,791 --> 01:00:30,458 is what my parents gave me. 16 01:00:31,250 --> 01:00:32,500 Jaymak, I've mentioned it, 17 01:00:32,916 --> 01:00:34,125 it's a LaraCon talk. 18 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:35,833 I don't know why, but 19 01:00:35,833 --> 01:00:38,125 every job I've ever had, 20 01:00:38,125 --> 01:00:39,875 there has been at least one other Jason. 21 01:00:40,208 --> 01:00:42,000 I've been on a smaller team 22 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,125 where there were four Jason's. 23 01:00:44,625 --> 01:00:46,250 So by that point in time, 24 01:00:46,250 --> 01:00:48,250 everybody was, you do high school, 25 01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:49,708 you do last name, "Hey McCreary, 26 01:00:49,708 --> 01:00:53,375 hey McCreary." But that didn't even work. 27 01:00:53,375 --> 01:00:54,041 There was another one, 28 01:00:54,041 --> 01:00:55,791 Jason Meredith was his name. 29 01:00:55,958 --> 01:00:58,583 There was a Jason McKey 30 01:00:58,583 --> 01:00:59,791 that I worked with one time. 31 01:01:00,833 --> 01:01:04,250 So eventually it was like, 32 01:01:04,250 --> 01:01:05,750 "Okay, you're just 33 01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:07,750 Jason and you're Jaymak." 34 01:01:08,541 --> 01:01:10,125 So that's where Jaymak came from. 35 01:01:11,333 --> 01:01:13,000 Gone Dark was just, 36 01:01:13,375 --> 01:01:15,500 I think when I first joined Twitter, 37 01:01:16,375 --> 01:01:18,666 I was watching Jack Bauer, 24. 38 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,291 Remember the old, we're Zoomers, 39 01:01:22,291 --> 01:01:23,750 so you probably remember the old TV 40 01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:25,708 series of Jack Bauer. 41 01:01:26,500 --> 01:01:28,208 I always thought it was hilarious when 42 01:01:28,208 --> 01:01:29,666 Jack Bauer was like, 43 01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:31,208 "I'm gonna go dark." 44 01:01:31,916 --> 01:01:33,708 That was when he was super 45 01:01:33,708 --> 01:01:35,208 spy out of communication. 46 01:01:36,583 --> 01:01:38,958 And I just thought that was a stupid, 47 01:01:38,958 --> 01:01:42,041 ironical name to have for Twitter, 48 01:01:42,083 --> 01:01:47,416 massively public tweets at the time. 49 01:01:47,416 --> 01:01:48,250 I thought that was funny. 50 01:01:49,250 --> 01:01:50,291 It is, that's good. 51 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:51,750 Yeah, it's funny, 52 01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:53,625 because we used to show 53 01:01:53,625 --> 01:01:55,375 him my age when 24 came out, 54 01:01:55,458 --> 01:01:56,833 it was like a thing, 55 01:01:57,125 --> 01:01:58,333 everybody, we would 56 01:01:58,333 --> 01:01:59,208 go to my buddy's house 57 01:01:59,208 --> 01:01:59,958 and we would watch it. 58 01:02:00,250 --> 01:02:01,166 It's like, "What's gonna 59 01:02:01,166 --> 01:02:02,333 happen in the 13th hour?" 60 01:02:03,500 --> 01:02:05,916 People don't understand the excitement 61 01:02:06,291 --> 01:02:08,375 of an old show like that, 62 01:02:08,375 --> 01:02:09,958 that was really pre-internet 63 01:02:09,958 --> 01:02:12,333 and DVR and all this stuff, 64 01:02:12,333 --> 01:02:13,000 and no binging. 65 01:02:13,291 --> 01:02:14,125 I mean, you had to wait a 66 01:02:14,125 --> 01:02:16,166 week and talk to your friends 67 01:02:16,708 --> 01:02:18,458 and guess what was 68 01:02:18,458 --> 01:02:19,375 gonna be on the next show. 69 01:02:19,666 --> 01:02:20,625 Some of the excitement's 70 01:02:20,625 --> 01:02:22,458 gone because of that, I think. 71 01:02:24,625 --> 01:02:25,750 Yes, totally agree. 72 01:02:26,666 --> 01:02:28,708 I think Lost was one of the first shows 73 01:02:28,708 --> 01:02:30,333 that was pretty cool, 74 01:02:30,333 --> 01:02:30,833 where it was just like 75 01:02:30,833 --> 01:02:32,875 deep internet archives of, 76 01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:33,708 that was probably the 77 01:02:33,708 --> 01:02:36,041 best balance of week to week, 78 01:02:36,041 --> 01:02:37,333 but then also internet. 79 01:02:37,708 --> 01:02:38,541 Now it's all ruined. 80 01:02:38,791 --> 01:02:39,916 You can just watch 81 01:02:39,916 --> 01:02:41,625 every episode in an hour. 82 01:02:42,625 --> 01:02:45,708 Yeah, that's been our consumption now. 83 01:02:45,958 --> 01:02:47,333 You find a series and you just binge it 84 01:02:47,333 --> 01:02:48,083 and then you're like, "Oh, 85 01:02:48,083 --> 01:02:49,041 what are we gonna do now?" 86 01:02:49,041 --> 01:02:49,500 And it's like, "Oh." 87 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:50,833 Okay, that's done. 88 01:02:51,041 --> 01:02:52,208 You can't even appreciate it almost. 89 01:02:52,250 --> 01:02:53,666 It's just like it's done now. 90 01:02:54,875 --> 01:02:55,250 For sure. 91 01:02:55,916 --> 01:02:58,541 All right, so let's jump into Laravel 12, 92 01:02:58,875 --> 01:02:59,958 which is coming out, 93 01:03:00,958 --> 01:03:02,000 as of this recording, 94 01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:03,166 it's coming out in about two weeks. 95 01:03:03,166 --> 01:03:03,916 So by the time we publish, 96 01:03:04,125 --> 01:03:05,333 it'll be right around the time. 97 01:03:06,916 --> 01:03:08,875 I have been following along a little bit. 98 01:03:09,291 --> 01:03:11,250 You have been actually deep into it 99 01:03:11,250 --> 01:03:12,541 because you've been doing live streams 100 01:03:12,750 --> 01:03:14,500 on Laravel 12 stuff. 101 01:03:15,166 --> 01:03:17,041 So what specifically have 102 01:03:17,041 --> 01:03:18,250 you been working on with it? 103 01:03:19,166 --> 01:03:20,041 A lot of the live streams 104 01:03:20,041 --> 01:03:21,958 actually were more ideas. 105 01:03:22,333 --> 01:03:24,291 I always have these things 106 01:03:24,291 --> 01:03:26,041 that I wanna see be in the framework. 107 01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:27,000 And then of course you 108 01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:28,958 get busy the whole year. 109 01:03:29,625 --> 01:03:30,458 And then they announce, 110 01:03:30,875 --> 01:03:32,625 "Laravel 12's coming two weeks." 111 01:03:32,625 --> 01:03:33,125 And you're like, "Oh 112 01:03:33,125 --> 01:03:34,166 crap, I wanted to see 113 01:03:34,166 --> 01:03:35,000 if I could add this." 114 01:03:35,333 --> 01:03:36,333 And they're normally 115 01:03:36,333 --> 01:03:37,666 bigger concepts that like, 116 01:03:37,666 --> 01:03:38,541 yeah, you couldn't throw 117 01:03:38,541 --> 01:03:39,916 out in a minor release. 118 01:03:39,916 --> 01:03:40,958 Maybe it's a breaking change. 119 01:03:40,958 --> 01:03:42,958 Maybe it's a convention change. 120 01:03:43,166 --> 01:03:44,208 Maybe it's a default 121 01:03:44,208 --> 01:03:45,333 value that gets changed. 122 01:03:45,916 --> 01:03:47,500 So those are more what the live streams 123 01:03:47,625 --> 01:03:48,708 the last few weeks have been. 124 01:03:48,708 --> 01:03:50,250 It's just like, can 125 01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:51,750 these tiny little things get 126 01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:54,166 into Laravel 12 as 127 01:03:54,166 --> 01:03:55,666 potentially breaking changes? 128 01:03:55,875 --> 01:03:57,166 Cause you get once a year 129 01:03:57,500 --> 01:03:59,458 to try to get something that's breaking. 130 01:03:59,458 --> 01:04:00,416 And we all know, and 131 01:04:00,416 --> 01:04:01,291 I'm sure we'll talk about, 132 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:03,416 Taylor's now of the stance, 133 01:04:03,416 --> 01:04:04,166 he hates breaking 134 01:04:04,166 --> 01:04:05,583 changes, no breaking changes. 135 01:04:08,208 --> 01:04:09,000 So some of them got 136 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,083 in, some of them didn't. 137 01:04:10,083 --> 01:04:10,541 Some of them were, 138 01:04:10,541 --> 01:04:11,875 they're tiny little paper cuts. 139 01:04:13,208 --> 01:04:14,541 But yeah, that's just 140 01:04:14,541 --> 01:04:15,916 me as a Laravel user. 141 01:04:16,333 --> 01:04:18,166 That's kind of unrelated to shift. 142 01:04:18,166 --> 01:04:19,541 It's just me, like as 143 01:04:19,541 --> 01:04:20,541 someone who's used Laravel 144 01:04:20,541 --> 01:04:22,541 for 10 years, here's some 145 01:04:22,541 --> 01:04:24,750 small little power user things 146 01:04:24,750 --> 01:04:26,875 that I would love to readdress. 147 01:04:26,875 --> 01:04:27,583 I would love to have 148 01:04:27,583 --> 01:04:28,791 more attention, right? 149 01:04:30,208 --> 01:04:32,708 Yes, which that sort of brings me to, 150 01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,833 you're very good at the paper cuts 151 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,083 because the current Laravel 152 01:04:37,083 --> 01:04:39,041 release that came out yesterday 153 01:04:39,500 --> 01:04:41,416 had all these new little date, 154 01:04:42,375 --> 01:04:43,416 relative date methods. 155 01:04:43,708 --> 01:04:46,916 And I know they got declined before, 156 01:04:47,250 --> 01:04:48,833 but for me, I just love 157 01:04:48,833 --> 01:04:49,958 little stuff like this. 158 01:04:49,958 --> 01:04:50,625 Like it's easy to 159 01:04:50,625 --> 01:04:51,750 talk about it, it's fun. 160 01:04:52,208 --> 01:04:53,083 You know, you can 161 01:04:53,083 --> 01:04:54,125 refactor all this stuff. 162 01:04:54,333 --> 01:04:55,750 So how did that come about? 163 01:04:55,750 --> 01:04:56,375 You just were like, 164 01:04:56,375 --> 01:04:57,291 I'm gonna do this again 165 01:04:57,291 --> 01:04:58,500 and it's gonna go through this stuff. 166 01:04:59,166 --> 01:04:59,916 Yeah, I was working on 167 01:04:59,916 --> 01:05:01,375 that side project with JT 168 01:05:01,750 --> 01:05:04,375 and I wrote it. 169 01:05:04,833 --> 01:05:05,625 I wrote, like a lot of 170 01:05:05,625 --> 01:05:06,625 the times these paper cuts, 171 01:05:06,833 --> 01:05:07,541 like again, as someone 172 01:05:07,541 --> 01:05:08,791 who's used Laravel for 10 years, 173 01:05:08,791 --> 01:05:10,250 sometimes you make assumptions of like, 174 01:05:10,250 --> 01:05:12,000 well, this has to exist, right? 175 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:12,375 Like you don't 176 01:05:12,375 --> 01:05:13,416 necessarily have the autocomplete 177 01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:15,250 or something, but you're kind of like, 178 01:05:15,708 --> 01:05:16,500 there's so many 179 01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:19,625 beautiful, human, expressive, 180 01:05:19,666 --> 01:05:21,708 chained methods in 181 01:05:21,708 --> 01:05:22,916 Laravel that a lot of times 182 01:05:22,916 --> 01:05:24,750 you're just like, hey, I 183 01:05:24,750 --> 01:05:27,125 wonder if where past exists 184 01:05:27,458 --> 01:05:28,708 on Query Builder, right? 185 01:05:28,708 --> 01:05:30,291 And I had done that two or three times 186 01:05:30,291 --> 01:05:30,958 in this other side 187 01:05:30,958 --> 01:05:32,083 project and it wasn't there. 188 01:05:32,083 --> 01:05:32,875 And I was like, I 189 01:05:32,875 --> 01:05:33,958 feel like this was there. 190 01:05:34,333 --> 01:05:35,125 And then I stumbled on 191 01:05:35,125 --> 01:05:37,583 that PR that it got declined, 192 01:05:38,375 --> 01:05:40,333 I guess two or three years ago now. 193 01:05:40,333 --> 01:05:41,875 And I was like, I'm 194 01:05:41,875 --> 01:05:43,166 just gonna resubmit this 195 01:05:43,375 --> 01:05:44,625 in its current state 196 01:05:44,625 --> 01:05:46,708 and see if it gets in. 197 01:05:46,708 --> 01:05:47,125 Cause honestly, 198 01:05:47,125 --> 01:05:49,416 sometimes it just gets in, right? 199 01:05:49,416 --> 01:05:51,250 Like everybody's got a new mindset. 200 01:05:51,250 --> 01:05:52,666 There's more to the framework now. 201 01:05:52,666 --> 01:05:53,500 There's more of these 202 01:05:53,500 --> 01:05:54,875 kinds of helpful methods. 203 01:05:55,708 --> 01:05:57,125 Taylor's in a different place. 204 01:05:57,125 --> 01:05:58,708 Maybe he now sees a need, right? 205 01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:00,583 So there's just so many factors. 206 01:06:01,125 --> 01:06:02,416 And it's funny that you 207 01:06:02,416 --> 01:06:03,750 said that you liked it. 208 01:06:03,750 --> 01:06:04,708 Cause yeah, it's just, 209 01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,541 I find lately sometimes 210 01:06:06,541 --> 01:06:07,666 these things are met. 211 01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,041 As the community grows, 212 01:06:10,041 --> 01:06:12,083 you get more opinions, right? 213 01:06:12,166 --> 01:06:13,958 That's just how the world works. 214 01:06:14,583 --> 01:06:17,625 And I just, sometimes these PRs, 215 01:06:17,625 --> 01:06:19,333 like they're just met with 216 01:06:19,333 --> 01:06:21,916 some thumbs downy stuff lately. 217 01:06:21,916 --> 01:06:23,958 And I'm just kind of like, I don't know, 218 01:06:23,958 --> 01:06:26,666 that doesn't feel the way past, you know, 219 01:06:26,791 --> 01:06:28,541 sometimes they just get in right away. 220 01:06:28,541 --> 01:06:30,166 They're not even whatever. 221 01:06:30,166 --> 01:06:30,750 And then other times 222 01:06:30,750 --> 01:06:32,333 you'll get 50 thumbs ups 223 01:06:32,333 --> 01:06:33,416 and it gets closed. 224 01:06:33,416 --> 01:06:34,166 And then other times 225 01:06:34,166 --> 01:06:35,541 you'll get 10 thumbs down 226 01:06:35,541 --> 01:06:36,291 and it gets merged. 227 01:06:36,291 --> 01:06:38,708 So it's just funny is all, right? 228 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:39,166 Yeah. 229 01:06:40,166 --> 01:06:42,500 And like you said, I assume 230 01:06:42,500 --> 01:06:44,625 a lot of it just comes down 231 01:06:44,625 --> 01:06:46,291 to what the reviewer, the 232 01:06:46,291 --> 01:06:48,416 end reviewer thinks that day, 233 01:06:48,666 --> 01:06:49,416 you know, like if it's 234 01:06:49,416 --> 01:06:50,666 Taylor or if it's somebody else, 235 01:06:50,666 --> 01:06:52,041 it's just like, you 236 01:06:52,041 --> 01:06:53,166 just need to catch them 237 01:06:53,166 --> 01:06:54,083 on that right moment. 238 01:06:54,833 --> 01:06:56,250 I think it's always Taylor. 239 01:06:56,250 --> 01:06:57,875 I mean, he says that anyway. 240 01:06:58,125 --> 01:06:58,583 I mean, there are other 241 01:06:58,583 --> 01:06:59,750 people that might chime in 242 01:06:59,750 --> 01:07:01,291 from the team, but he, I 243 01:07:01,291 --> 01:07:03,083 think is still to this day, 244 01:07:03,125 --> 01:07:05,625 like merges every PR. 245 01:07:05,875 --> 01:07:07,500 Like it's a point of pride for him. 246 01:07:07,791 --> 01:07:08,625 You know, the framework is 247 01:07:08,625 --> 01:07:10,083 always going to be his baby. 248 01:07:11,541 --> 01:07:11,708 Yeah. 249 01:07:12,041 --> 01:07:14,166 I think, yeah, from 250 01:07:14,166 --> 01:07:15,208 everything I've heard too, 251 01:07:15,208 --> 01:07:16,250 I do agree with that. 252 01:07:16,625 --> 01:07:17,625 But I was going to say, 253 01:07:18,375 --> 01:07:19,833 Laervel itself has actually 254 01:07:19,833 --> 01:07:21,541 been merging more of those. 255 01:07:21,541 --> 01:07:22,916 You know, we've got that number helper. 256 01:07:23,375 --> 01:07:25,458 I think CodeWithCaen put in. 257 01:07:26,125 --> 01:07:26,875 There's been all these 258 01:07:26,875 --> 01:07:28,166 little helpers in this last, 259 01:07:28,583 --> 01:07:29,333 I feel like in the last 260 01:07:29,333 --> 01:07:30,958 year that that's came about. 261 01:07:31,833 --> 01:07:33,583 And again, I think they're super useful 262 01:07:33,583 --> 01:07:36,125 and super fun to talk about, but yeah. 263 01:07:36,166 --> 01:07:37,916 I kind of mentioned that to, yeah. 264 01:07:37,958 --> 01:07:39,375 I mentioned that to Taylor, like, 265 01:07:39,541 --> 01:07:40,583 especially, you know, 266 01:07:40,583 --> 01:07:42,166 we were talking about these date things 267 01:07:42,166 --> 01:07:44,458 cause he was kind of, you 268 01:07:44,458 --> 01:07:47,041 know, oh yeah, I dig it. 269 01:07:47,041 --> 01:07:48,333 I don't know why we didn't merge this 270 01:07:48,333 --> 01:07:49,166 before kind of thing. 271 01:07:49,166 --> 01:07:50,750 And like, it was, it's one of those 272 01:07:50,750 --> 01:07:53,000 things where, you know, 273 01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,500 I think the framework is so large now 274 01:07:57,833 --> 01:08:00,208 that you're going to have, 275 01:08:00,208 --> 01:08:01,041 you're going to have to 276 01:08:01,041 --> 01:08:03,500 have aliases for things 277 01:08:03,500 --> 01:08:04,833 like naming so subjective. 278 01:08:05,125 --> 01:08:05,916 If you want to appeal 279 01:08:05,916 --> 01:08:06,958 to the broadest audience, 280 01:08:07,916 --> 01:08:08,750 you can't just be 281 01:08:08,750 --> 01:08:10,125 stark about, okay, well, 282 01:08:10,125 --> 01:08:10,833 this is the technical 283 01:08:10,833 --> 01:08:12,000 name that we're going to use. 284 01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,750 Like you need to allow like where not, 285 01:08:15,500 --> 01:08:17,250 and you know, missing 286 01:08:17,250 --> 01:08:19,166 versus exists or both. 287 01:08:19,541 --> 01:08:20,000 I mean, so there's 288 01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:21,000 going to be a lot of aliases 289 01:08:21,250 --> 01:08:22,708 for methods that maybe 290 01:08:22,708 --> 01:08:23,958 one person likes missing 291 01:08:23,958 --> 01:08:26,333 and one person likes not exists, right? 292 01:08:26,875 --> 01:08:29,000 Like it's just, again, it's 293 01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:30,291 the way the world is, right? 294 01:08:31,541 --> 01:08:32,000 Yeah, yeah. 295 01:08:32,166 --> 01:08:34,833 It kind of reminds me of Tailwind CSS 296 01:08:35,166 --> 01:08:37,208 with the way they spell gray 297 01:08:37,458 --> 01:08:38,916 and then I spell it the opposite way. 298 01:08:39,166 --> 01:08:39,958 And it's like, I always have 299 01:08:39,958 --> 01:08:41,583 to go in and put an alias in 300 01:08:41,583 --> 01:08:43,000 cause I can't speak the other way. 301 01:08:43,458 --> 01:08:45,500 Yeah, I think at some point they said, 302 01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:47,000 no, it's just gray with an 303 01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,583 A, I think, I don't know. 304 01:08:49,583 --> 01:08:51,291 But I remember gray with 305 01:08:51,291 --> 01:08:52,333 the E for a little while. 306 01:08:54,083 --> 01:08:54,291 Yeah. 307 01:08:55,291 --> 01:08:55,833 Yeah, you could 308 01:08:55,833 --> 01:08:56,958 choose that as a framework, 309 01:08:57,166 --> 01:08:59,250 but I'm glad that Laravel doesn't, right? 310 01:08:59,250 --> 01:08:59,833 I think if you want 311 01:08:59,833 --> 01:09:00,708 to appeal to the most, 312 01:09:00,708 --> 01:09:01,375 I mean, don't do it 313 01:09:01,375 --> 01:09:02,916 willy nilly on everything, 314 01:09:03,125 --> 01:09:04,833 but once you do it once, 315 01:09:04,833 --> 01:09:06,166 you kind of have to accept 316 01:09:06,333 --> 01:09:08,291 that you're going to get PRs 317 01:09:08,291 --> 01:09:10,083 for a bunch of aliases and. 318 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:12,166 Yeah. 319 01:09:12,833 --> 01:09:14,916 Well, so, you know, as 320 01:09:14,916 --> 01:09:16,375 you're submitting pull requests 321 01:09:16,375 --> 01:09:17,000 and looking through the 322 01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:17,958 framework and stuff like that, 323 01:09:17,958 --> 01:09:19,125 I know you're talking about, you know, 324 01:09:19,125 --> 01:09:20,541 fixing little paper cuts and things, 325 01:09:21,791 --> 01:09:23,291 with Taylor saying that Laravel 12 326 01:09:23,291 --> 01:09:25,333 is not going to be a breaking change or, 327 01:09:27,041 --> 01:09:28,625 I want to say that's what he said, right? 328 01:09:28,625 --> 01:09:29,333 There's going to be no 329 01:09:29,333 --> 01:09:30,416 breaking changes in 12. 330 01:09:30,458 --> 01:09:30,916 No breaking changes. 331 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:33,375 It's the claim. 332 01:09:34,125 --> 01:09:35,000 The claim, yes. 333 01:09:35,333 --> 01:09:36,291 I was going to say, so does, 334 01:09:37,416 --> 01:09:39,083 how's that going to work going forward? 335 01:09:39,083 --> 01:09:39,791 Is this just going to be 336 01:09:39,791 --> 01:09:41,333 like a one-off release this way, 337 01:09:41,333 --> 01:09:42,291 or do you think they're 338 01:09:42,291 --> 01:09:43,291 going to keep striving 339 01:09:43,458 --> 01:09:44,500 to not have breaking changes? 340 01:09:45,166 --> 01:09:46,458 I do think it's a 341 01:09:46,458 --> 01:09:48,333 trend for Taylor and team. 342 01:09:49,375 --> 01:09:51,458 You know, I know Nuno has been a big fan 343 01:09:51,458 --> 01:09:52,333 of things like Rust, 344 01:09:52,750 --> 01:09:54,583 and I know there are 345 01:09:54,583 --> 01:09:56,250 things of these other languages, 346 01:09:56,500 --> 01:09:58,833 you know, there are traits of them that, 347 01:09:59,625 --> 01:10:01,458 you know, they don't have 348 01:10:01,458 --> 01:10:03,250 necessarily big huge releases, 349 01:10:03,458 --> 01:10:05,416 or they don't have breaking changes. 350 01:10:05,583 --> 01:10:07,583 You just kind of toggle on features 351 01:10:07,833 --> 01:10:09,500 or you opt into features. 352 01:10:09,916 --> 01:10:11,541 So there is maybe 353 01:10:11,541 --> 01:10:14,416 something there for the future. 354 01:10:15,791 --> 01:10:16,958 At the same time, I mean, 355 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:19,000 we have to be a little bit 356 01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:21,041 realistic in the fact that like, 357 01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:22,541 no breaking changes, 358 01:10:22,916 --> 01:10:24,666 there's some nuance to breaking change, 359 01:10:24,666 --> 01:10:25,666 no break, that statement, 360 01:10:25,666 --> 01:10:26,541 there's some nuance, right? 361 01:10:26,541 --> 01:10:27,875 We all know this, like, 362 01:10:28,583 --> 01:10:29,000 just because there 363 01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,208 are no breaking changes 364 01:10:30,208 --> 01:10:31,875 doesn't mean there are no changes. 365 01:10:33,041 --> 01:10:34,791 So it's not like you can 366 01:10:34,791 --> 01:10:38,125 just truly go into your new app 367 01:10:38,291 --> 01:10:39,083 and say, or your 368 01:10:39,083 --> 01:10:40,250 LayerVille 11 app and say, 369 01:10:40,250 --> 01:10:41,958 Composer update, and it 370 01:10:41,958 --> 01:10:43,083 just runs LayerVille 12. 371 01:10:43,333 --> 01:10:44,041 Like you, at the 372 01:10:44,041 --> 01:10:45,916 minimum, you got to go in, 373 01:10:45,916 --> 01:10:47,000 you got to bump your dependencies 374 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:48,583 in your Composer JSON file, 375 01:10:48,791 --> 01:10:49,916 you got to review 376 01:10:49,916 --> 01:10:51,458 some things to make sure 377 01:10:51,458 --> 01:10:53,333 there aren't some new pieces 378 01:10:53,500 --> 01:10:54,458 that have to come into 379 01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,041 the core files or config, 380 01:10:56,250 --> 01:10:58,541 I mean, config files are always changing. 381 01:10:58,541 --> 01:11:00,375 You know, every minor release, 382 01:11:00,625 --> 01:11:02,041 there's a new ENV 383 01:11:02,041 --> 01:11:03,541 variable or a new line of code 384 01:11:03,541 --> 01:11:05,583 or a new option inside of a config file. 385 01:11:05,958 --> 01:11:07,791 So, you know, if you upgraded the 386 01:11:07,791 --> 01:11:09,000 LayerVille 11 last March, 387 01:11:09,291 --> 01:11:10,625 you have a year worth, 388 01:11:10,625 --> 01:11:12,875 you have 52 releases, 389 01:11:13,541 --> 01:11:15,416 minor releases of LayerVille that have 390 01:11:15,416 --> 01:11:16,666 happened since then. 391 01:11:17,500 --> 01:11:19,583 And there's a lot, as 392 01:11:19,583 --> 01:11:20,333 we just talked about, 393 01:11:20,333 --> 01:11:21,291 there's a lot of stuff in 394 01:11:21,291 --> 01:11:22,041 each one of those things. 395 01:11:22,375 --> 01:11:25,375 So, you know, what 396 01:11:25,375 --> 01:11:26,625 direction is the framework heading 397 01:11:26,625 --> 01:11:27,833 as far as major 398 01:11:27,833 --> 01:11:29,208 releases and breaking changes? 399 01:11:30,375 --> 01:11:31,666 I don't know, that might be a trend, 400 01:11:31,666 --> 01:11:34,708 but at the same time, the parallel 401 01:11:35,291 --> 01:11:37,000 that maybe we're getting at here is, 402 01:11:37,625 --> 01:11:38,208 you know, what is 403 01:11:38,208 --> 01:11:39,666 shift going to do, right? 404 01:11:40,083 --> 01:11:43,416 And there's always stuff to change. 405 01:11:43,416 --> 01:11:46,125 There's always code that changes. 406 01:11:46,125 --> 01:11:46,833 I think we all know 407 01:11:46,833 --> 01:11:47,958 it's never just as simple 408 01:11:47,958 --> 01:11:49,375 as running Composer update. 409 01:11:49,583 --> 01:11:51,583 It's maybe it is once or twice, 410 01:11:51,666 --> 01:11:54,041 but it's not by LayerVille 13.14. 411 01:11:54,041 --> 01:11:55,833 At some point, you're going to pay down 412 01:11:56,583 --> 01:11:57,500 those kind of shortcuts 413 01:11:57,500 --> 01:11:59,041 that you took along the way. 414 01:11:59,041 --> 01:12:00,291 And so shift is always going to be there 415 01:12:00,291 --> 01:12:01,041 to kind of make sure 416 01:12:01,041 --> 01:12:03,041 that your app truly looks 417 01:12:03,041 --> 01:12:05,000 and feels like LayerVille 12, right? 418 01:12:05,500 --> 01:12:07,166 Like there's a huge difference 419 01:12:07,166 --> 01:12:07,916 between LayerVille 10 420 01:12:07,916 --> 01:12:09,083 and LayerVille 11, right? 421 01:12:09,083 --> 01:12:10,166 That was a huge release. 422 01:12:10,416 --> 01:12:11,375 I think it gets underplayed 423 01:12:11,375 --> 01:12:12,708 because the docs kind of say, 424 01:12:13,458 --> 01:12:14,083 don't worry about 425 01:12:14,083 --> 01:12:15,041 changing your structure, 426 01:12:15,583 --> 01:12:17,958 but there's a lot 427 01:12:17,958 --> 01:12:19,083 there between a LayerVille, 428 01:12:19,083 --> 01:12:20,291 if you go look at a LayerVille 10 app 429 01:12:20,333 --> 01:12:21,875 and you look at a LayerVille 11 app, 430 01:12:22,333 --> 01:12:23,916 completely different, you know? 431 01:12:24,125 --> 01:12:25,875 The way in which you do almost everything 432 01:12:25,875 --> 01:12:27,166 is completely different. 433 01:12:27,166 --> 01:12:28,041 The way you register 434 01:12:28,041 --> 01:12:29,083 middleware, different. 435 01:12:29,291 --> 01:12:31,833 The way, you know, you configure your app 436 01:12:31,833 --> 01:12:33,291 or bootstrap your application, different. 437 01:12:33,583 --> 01:12:34,791 The way you put things in service 438 01:12:34,791 --> 01:12:35,750 providers, different. 439 01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:38,166 There are no more kernels, you know, 440 01:12:38,625 --> 01:12:40,833 so much changed in LayerVille 11. 441 01:12:41,416 --> 01:12:42,291 And again, I think 442 01:12:42,291 --> 01:12:43,291 because of the upgrade guide, 443 01:12:43,291 --> 01:12:46,833 not everybody moved to that structure. 444 01:12:47,083 --> 01:12:47,875 So if nothing else, 445 01:12:47,875 --> 01:12:48,916 the LayerVille 12 shift 446 01:12:49,708 --> 01:12:51,500 would make sure that you 447 01:12:51,500 --> 01:12:53,333 are following, you know, 448 01:12:53,333 --> 01:12:54,125 everyone's gonna slowly 449 01:12:54,125 --> 01:12:55,333 move to that structure. 450 01:12:55,333 --> 01:12:57,416 We all, again, we all kind of know and 451 01:12:57,416 --> 01:12:59,166 know this deep down. 452 01:13:00,041 --> 01:13:01,333 And who knows if that structure ever, 453 01:13:01,583 --> 01:13:02,458 that older structure ever 454 01:13:02,458 --> 01:13:04,958 gets, you know, unsupported. 455 01:13:05,500 --> 01:13:06,583 You know, this happens, right? 456 01:13:07,375 --> 01:13:09,500 Yeah, yeah, the, you know, 457 01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:10,541 speaking of LayerVille shift, 458 01:13:11,291 --> 01:13:12,541 basically for like 459 01:13:12,541 --> 01:13:13,666 LayerVille news website, 460 01:13:13,666 --> 01:13:14,458 I always run it through 461 01:13:14,458 --> 01:13:17,166 shift and it's just, I mean, 462 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:19,291 like you said, I was 463 01:13:19,291 --> 01:13:20,250 going back to Laravel 10 464 01:13:20,250 --> 01:13:21,208 versus Laravel 11. 465 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:22,500 I went through the 466 01:13:22,500 --> 01:13:23,291 upgrade guide and I was like, 467 01:13:23,291 --> 01:13:24,166 "Eh, this is not too bad." 468 01:13:24,166 --> 01:13:25,083 But I was like, "I'm gonna do it anyway 469 01:13:25,083 --> 01:13:25,750 because it's like, I 470 01:13:25,750 --> 01:13:27,666 don't want to, you know, 471 01:13:27,666 --> 01:13:29,166 spend any time on this really." 472 01:13:29,458 --> 01:13:29,666 Yeah. 473 01:13:30,916 --> 01:13:31,791 And then it was like, "Boom!" 474 01:13:31,791 --> 01:13:33,833 It's like, "Boom, here's like 70 commits 475 01:13:34,041 --> 01:13:35,000 to fix all this stuff 476 01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:35,791 and change it around." 477 01:13:35,791 --> 01:13:36,791 I was like, "This is perfect." 478 01:13:36,791 --> 01:13:38,000 Like, it was so good to go 479 01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:39,833 through that and just have it, 480 01:13:39,833 --> 01:13:41,166 you know, not even have to think twice 481 01:13:41,166 --> 01:13:41,708 because you've 482 01:13:41,708 --> 01:13:43,375 already done the hard work. 483 01:13:43,541 --> 01:13:44,291 Like, "Why am I gonna 484 01:13:44,291 --> 01:13:45,500 waste this time of my life 485 01:13:45,625 --> 01:13:47,000 when you're doing it, we 486 01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:47,791 could send you some money 487 01:13:47,958 --> 01:13:48,833 and it's just done." 488 01:13:49,583 --> 01:13:51,250 Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, right? 489 01:13:51,666 --> 01:13:53,041 Like, it's always, you 490 01:13:53,041 --> 01:13:55,500 could always, the statements of, 491 01:13:55,500 --> 01:13:56,833 you know, hopefully you 492 01:13:56,833 --> 01:13:57,833 can just run Composer Update 493 01:13:58,000 --> 01:13:59,041 and be on Laravel 12. 494 01:13:59,750 --> 01:14:01,250 That's always going to be a possibility. 495 01:14:01,458 --> 01:14:03,000 That always has been a possibility. 496 01:14:04,291 --> 01:14:05,291 I think where shift's 497 01:14:05,291 --> 01:14:06,750 value really, really comes 498 01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:08,458 and where I hope that 499 01:14:08,458 --> 01:14:09,416 over the last 10 years 500 01:14:09,416 --> 01:14:10,041 I've kind of earned the 501 01:14:10,041 --> 01:14:12,125 reputation is that shift again, 502 01:14:12,625 --> 01:14:13,916 its goal is that your 503 01:14:13,916 --> 01:14:15,916 application looks and feels 504 01:14:16,666 --> 01:14:17,625 like LayerVille 12. 505 01:14:17,666 --> 01:14:19,750 It's not just running LayerVille 12, 506 01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:21,583 it actually looks like LayerVille 12. 507 01:14:21,583 --> 01:14:22,750 Your example code, your 508 01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,000 code matches the examples 509 01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:24,833 from the documentation. 510 01:14:25,416 --> 01:14:27,208 The conventions are adopted. 511 01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,625 You know, you are truly running a 512 01:14:30,625 --> 01:14:32,083 LayerVille 12 application. 513 01:14:32,708 --> 01:14:35,916 In that regard, shift has always gone far 514 01:14:36,041 --> 01:14:36,875 beyond the upgrade 515 01:14:36,875 --> 01:14:39,208 guide, very much so for 11, 516 01:14:40,041 --> 01:14:41,000 and you know, as you noted. 517 01:14:41,666 --> 01:14:42,958 And it'll continue to do that. 518 01:14:42,958 --> 01:14:44,708 So I hope that even if there 519 01:14:44,708 --> 01:14:46,416 were truly no breaking changes 520 01:14:46,708 --> 01:14:48,875 like there's still 521 01:14:48,875 --> 01:14:50,916 going to be a value add 522 01:14:50,916 --> 01:14:52,333 that shift can offer. 523 01:14:52,750 --> 01:14:53,541 Honestly, I'm kind of 524 01:14:53,541 --> 01:14:54,916 excited because it allows me 525 01:14:54,916 --> 01:14:56,375 to focus on more of those 526 01:14:56,375 --> 01:14:58,125 conventional code changes 527 01:14:58,458 --> 01:15:00,416 that, you know, with 11, 528 01:15:00,416 --> 01:15:01,208 I got to move your files 529 01:15:01,208 --> 01:15:02,458 or I got to do a lot of work there 530 01:15:02,458 --> 01:15:02,958 and I don't want to 531 01:15:02,958 --> 01:15:04,208 make the PR too noisy. 532 01:15:04,375 --> 01:15:05,666 So maybe I didn't do some 533 01:15:05,666 --> 01:15:07,083 code refactoring things, 534 01:15:07,083 --> 01:15:08,666 but if there truly 535 01:15:08,666 --> 01:15:09,791 are no breaking changes, 536 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,708 I get to focus more on like the cool 537 01:15:11,708 --> 01:15:13,125 refactor stuff, right? 538 01:15:13,333 --> 01:15:14,666 And that's what I think is really cool. 539 01:15:15,833 --> 01:15:16,833 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 540 01:15:17,416 --> 01:15:19,583 And I guess just from 541 01:15:19,583 --> 01:15:21,875 like, say you're running, 542 01:15:21,875 --> 01:15:22,833 say like you've got 543 01:15:22,833 --> 01:15:24,291 this old app, it's running, 544 01:15:24,291 --> 01:15:25,583 I don't know, Laravel 10, 545 01:15:26,166 --> 01:15:27,625 and you're now 546 01:15:27,625 --> 01:15:28,916 Laravel 12 is about to come out 547 01:15:28,916 --> 01:15:30,041 and you're like, well, I really need to 548 01:15:30,041 --> 01:15:30,750 be on Laravel 11. 549 01:15:32,125 --> 01:15:34,291 You, I guess the 550 01:15:34,291 --> 01:15:36,791 recommended pathway for shift 551 01:15:37,041 --> 01:15:38,375 is you would go and run 552 01:15:38,375 --> 01:15:41,041 the 10 to 11 shift, do that, 553 01:15:41,041 --> 01:15:42,291 and then run the 11 to 554 01:15:42,291 --> 01:15:43,541 12 shift once it's out. 555 01:15:44,041 --> 01:15:47,000 Is that sort of the flow you like to do? 556 01:15:47,416 --> 01:15:49,291 Or is it just like boom, 10 to 12, 557 01:15:49,291 --> 01:15:50,125 and then you have like 558 01:15:50,125 --> 01:15:52,500 even more commits, I guess. 559 01:15:54,041 --> 01:15:56,375 Yeah, old shifts are always incremental. 560 01:15:56,750 --> 01:15:57,500 And this is kind of 561 01:15:57,500 --> 01:15:59,250 for focus and context. 562 01:15:59,500 --> 01:16:00,250 I mean, if you were on 563 01:16:00,250 --> 01:16:02,000 LayerVille seven, eight, nine, 564 01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:03,875 10, whatever, and you tried 565 01:16:03,875 --> 01:16:05,625 to jump in one shot to 12, 566 01:16:07,291 --> 01:16:08,375 you know, and then there's an error. 567 01:16:09,250 --> 01:16:11,000 Well, where did the error happen? 568 01:16:11,458 --> 01:16:13,583 Did it, where do I go look to get help? 569 01:16:13,625 --> 01:16:14,583 Do I look in the 570 01:16:14,583 --> 01:16:15,833 context of LayerVille 11? 571 01:16:16,041 --> 01:16:18,833 Like how do I refine that search, right? 572 01:16:18,833 --> 01:16:20,791 Or that prompt to like 573 01:16:20,791 --> 01:16:22,958 know what I'm looking at? 574 01:16:22,958 --> 01:16:23,500 I mean, hopefully you 575 01:16:23,500 --> 01:16:24,375 have a good error message, 576 01:16:24,541 --> 01:16:26,750 but I find that the 577 01:16:26,750 --> 01:16:29,708 incremental ones help again 578 01:16:29,708 --> 01:16:31,916 with that context of like, okay, I'm 579 01:16:31,916 --> 01:16:32,958 going from 10 to 11, 580 01:16:33,250 --> 01:16:34,500 and now I got this error. 581 01:16:34,666 --> 01:16:35,666 And it's very, you know, 582 01:16:35,666 --> 01:16:37,041 just throwing on LayerVille 11 583 01:16:37,250 --> 01:16:38,291 and the error is gonna 584 01:16:38,291 --> 01:16:40,000 give you far better results, 585 01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:41,916 far better information if you were to 586 01:16:41,916 --> 01:16:43,000 encounter a problem. 587 01:16:43,791 --> 01:16:44,750 Then, you know, again, if you're trying 588 01:16:44,750 --> 01:16:46,000 to lump some upgrade 589 01:16:46,791 --> 01:16:47,958 several versions, you 590 01:16:47,958 --> 01:16:49,000 kind of just don't even know 591 01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:49,916 where you're aiming if 592 01:16:49,916 --> 01:16:51,000 you run into a problem. 593 01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:53,000 And that alone, that single 594 01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:54,375 error can burn all the time 595 01:16:54,375 --> 01:16:55,041 that you would have spent 596 01:16:55,041 --> 01:16:56,541 running one extra shift, right? 597 01:16:57,333 --> 01:17:00,500 Yeah, that actually brings a question. 598 01:17:00,958 --> 01:17:02,125 This is totally theoretical. 599 01:17:02,708 --> 01:17:04,166 If you're on a Laravel seven app, 600 01:17:05,916 --> 01:17:07,000 Laravel 12's coming out. 601 01:17:07,708 --> 01:17:08,958 I don't, I mean, it 602 01:17:08,958 --> 01:17:10,083 would take you a month 603 01:17:10,541 --> 01:17:12,875 to go through all the code changes 604 01:17:13,125 --> 01:17:14,541 without going through shift. 605 01:17:14,833 --> 01:17:15,583 I mean, like, I don't even 606 01:17:15,583 --> 01:17:16,958 know if that would be fun 607 01:17:16,958 --> 01:17:18,500 or possible without shift. 608 01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:20,291 I think a lot of 609 01:17:20,291 --> 01:17:23,541 people think when they get 610 01:17:23,541 --> 01:17:25,000 that far behind, oh, I'll 611 01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,250 just make a LayerVille new 612 01:17:28,375 --> 01:17:30,000 and then copy my code over. 613 01:17:30,250 --> 01:17:31,208 A lot of people think 614 01:17:31,208 --> 01:17:34,166 that's what I can do. 615 01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:36,250 But that completely 616 01:17:36,250 --> 01:17:39,791 dismisses all of the code changes, 617 01:17:40,083 --> 01:17:42,500 like things change, traits change, 618 01:17:42,500 --> 01:17:45,041 facades change, method signatures change. 619 01:17:45,291 --> 01:17:47,000 So really, again, all you're doing is, 620 01:17:47,416 --> 01:17:49,125 sure you have a new LayerVille 12 app, 621 01:17:49,125 --> 01:17:49,958 but you're bringing in 622 01:17:49,958 --> 01:17:51,875 all your legacy code over. 623 01:17:52,333 --> 01:17:52,916 And yeah, it might 624 01:17:52,916 --> 01:17:55,041 run, but the same thing. 625 01:17:55,041 --> 01:17:57,541 Some day when the wheels fall off that, 626 01:17:57,541 --> 01:17:59,125 and they will, some day, 627 01:18:00,250 --> 01:18:01,041 you're gonna have no 628 01:18:01,041 --> 01:18:02,750 context of what broke. 629 01:18:02,750 --> 01:18:05,041 You're gonna have no information 630 01:18:05,458 --> 01:18:05,958 because you're just 631 01:18:05,958 --> 01:18:07,416 gonna think kind of naively, 632 01:18:07,625 --> 01:18:09,000 like, oh, I was running LayerVille 12. 633 01:18:09,125 --> 01:18:09,750 Well, not really. 634 01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:10,750 You were running 635 01:18:10,750 --> 01:18:13,250 LayerVille 12 of a LayerVille seven 636 01:18:13,375 --> 01:18:15,250 code base, you know? 637 01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:18,458 And that's just gonna be a problem, so. 638 01:18:19,875 --> 01:18:21,166 That's very true. 639 01:18:22,375 --> 01:18:25,083 So I guess if you go back in time, 640 01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:28,208 like in the beginning, why did you, 641 01:18:28,625 --> 01:18:31,166 or what just spurred you to be like, 642 01:18:31,166 --> 01:18:32,791 hey, I want to create this thing 643 01:18:32,791 --> 01:18:34,125 that will auto upgrade people, 644 01:18:35,250 --> 01:18:35,791 as far as the 645 01:18:35,791 --> 01:18:36,833 beginning of Flurival Shift? 646 01:18:37,875 --> 01:18:38,208 Sure. 647 01:18:38,875 --> 01:18:40,958 The origin story in a nutshell, 648 01:18:40,958 --> 01:18:42,541 and I think one of my last, 649 01:18:42,541 --> 01:18:44,125 the last kind of series 650 01:18:44,125 --> 01:18:45,750 of our base code podcasts 651 01:18:45,750 --> 01:18:46,916 that I used to do with Jess, 652 01:18:46,916 --> 01:18:49,458 I kind of did a solo series at the end 653 01:18:49,458 --> 01:18:50,625 that went through kind 654 01:18:50,625 --> 01:18:52,041 of the genesis of Shift. 655 01:18:52,208 --> 01:18:53,583 And honestly, it was kind of like a 656 01:18:53,583 --> 01:18:54,875 historical record for me 657 01:18:54,875 --> 01:18:56,250 because I'm going in the 658 01:18:56,250 --> 01:18:57,500 10th year of Shift now, 659 01:18:57,500 --> 01:18:59,000 and I've got kids now, 660 01:18:59,000 --> 01:18:59,916 I don't sleep as much. 661 01:19:00,291 --> 01:19:01,333 Like, I was kind of 662 01:19:01,333 --> 01:19:02,916 forgetting some of the details, right? 663 01:19:02,916 --> 01:19:03,708 I mean, it's been a while. 664 01:19:05,125 --> 01:19:06,625 But the short story is, 665 01:19:07,125 --> 01:19:08,125 I was at a PHP 666 01:19:08,125 --> 01:19:10,416 conference and Taylor was there, 667 01:19:11,416 --> 01:19:12,208 and I gave a talk on 668 01:19:12,208 --> 01:19:13,416 upgrading at the time. 669 01:19:13,416 --> 01:19:14,083 This was, it was 670 01:19:14,083 --> 01:19:16,458 upgrading from Laravel 4.2 to 5, 671 01:19:16,666 --> 01:19:18,791 a big, huge, major release. 672 01:19:19,500 --> 01:19:20,958 And after the talk, I 673 01:19:20,958 --> 01:19:22,291 caught up with Taylor 674 01:19:22,458 --> 01:19:24,000 and I was like, hey, do 675 01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:26,458 you know of any scripts 676 01:19:26,708 --> 01:19:27,916 that help with this? 677 01:19:27,916 --> 01:19:29,750 Or, you know, have you thought about it? 678 01:19:30,125 --> 01:19:31,291 And he was like, you 679 01:19:31,291 --> 01:19:32,208 know, man, a few words. 680 01:19:32,208 --> 01:19:32,583 Of course he was 681 01:19:32,583 --> 01:19:34,166 like, no, but I'd use it. 682 01:19:34,500 --> 01:19:36,416 And I was like, you know, whoa. 683 01:19:36,958 --> 01:19:37,833 Light bulbs, right? 684 01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:39,958 So like that night at the hackathon, 685 01:19:40,250 --> 01:19:41,916 I worked on some scripts 686 01:19:42,875 --> 01:19:44,041 that would automate a 687 01:19:44,041 --> 01:19:44,833 lot of these things, right? 688 01:19:44,833 --> 01:19:45,291 Because again, it was 689 01:19:45,291 --> 01:19:46,458 folder structure moves, 690 01:19:46,458 --> 01:19:48,791 it was files changed, it was, okay, 691 01:19:48,791 --> 01:19:50,083 now controllers extend 692 01:19:50,083 --> 01:19:51,208 this other controller, 693 01:19:51,500 --> 01:19:53,125 okay, now models are name spaced, 694 01:19:53,375 --> 01:19:54,500 like all these things, right? 695 01:19:54,750 --> 01:19:55,833 That could be automated. 696 01:19:56,791 --> 01:19:57,750 And I think it was funny, 697 01:19:57,750 --> 01:19:59,000 he was, as a bit of history, 698 01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:00,750 he was hacking on this 699 01:20:00,750 --> 01:20:01,750 little JavaScript framework 700 01:20:01,875 --> 01:20:03,208 called Vue and trying to 701 01:20:03,208 --> 01:20:04,833 bring it into Laravel 5.1. 702 01:20:05,958 --> 01:20:07,583 And so it was interesting, 703 01:20:07,583 --> 01:20:08,000 because I was kind of 704 01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:09,000 bouncing ideas off of him 705 01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:10,916 and really kind of the rest is history. 706 01:20:10,916 --> 01:20:12,833 From there, he released 5.1 and I 707 01:20:12,833 --> 01:20:14,500 packaged these scripts up 708 01:20:14,500 --> 01:20:15,166 and I put them on this 709 01:20:15,166 --> 01:20:16,750 little website for three bucks. 710 01:20:17,166 --> 01:20:19,333 It was $3, the first shift. 711 01:20:19,708 --> 01:20:20,333 And it was great. 712 01:20:20,583 --> 01:20:21,750 People like, I didn't, I 713 01:20:21,750 --> 01:20:22,583 was new to the community, 714 01:20:22,583 --> 01:20:25,083 but people like Frake and 715 01:20:25,083 --> 01:20:27,166 Jeffrey Way and Taylor himself 716 01:20:27,916 --> 01:20:28,791 were kind of using it 717 01:20:28,791 --> 01:20:29,875 in those first few weeks. 718 01:20:29,875 --> 01:20:30,500 You know, you're watching 719 01:20:30,500 --> 01:20:31,583 the little Stripe emails 720 01:20:32,541 --> 01:20:33,791 and you're seeing these names 721 01:20:33,791 --> 01:20:34,833 and you're learning the community 722 01:20:34,958 --> 01:20:35,708 and you're like, oh my gosh, 723 01:20:36,041 --> 01:20:38,000 that's layer casts, you know? 724 01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:39,291 And I'm getting 725 01:20:39,291 --> 01:20:41,333 feedback and it's just been 726 01:20:41,583 --> 01:20:43,541 that times a million, 727 01:20:43,541 --> 01:20:45,083 you know, since then. 728 01:20:46,250 --> 01:20:47,625 Yeah, that's amazing. 729 01:20:48,166 --> 01:20:49,583 That's sort of the coolest 730 01:20:49,583 --> 01:20:52,041 way products or apps start. 731 01:20:52,041 --> 01:20:52,875 It's just like talking to 732 01:20:52,875 --> 01:20:53,583 somebody and being like, 733 01:20:53,583 --> 01:20:54,875 oh yeah, I think that'd be amazing. 734 01:20:54,875 --> 01:20:55,458 And then you're just like, 735 01:20:55,458 --> 01:20:56,500 okay, I'm just gonna build this. 736 01:20:57,833 --> 01:21:00,083 So to kind of shift gears a little bit 737 01:21:00,541 --> 01:21:03,875 from the page shifts that you run 738 01:21:04,041 --> 01:21:05,291 and basically run your business, 739 01:21:05,500 --> 01:21:07,375 but as a community service, 740 01:21:08,458 --> 01:21:10,875 you send PRs to open source packages. 741 01:21:11,458 --> 01:21:12,500 So that way they can 742 01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:13,833 be up on layer build 12. 743 01:21:15,041 --> 01:21:16,291 At the moment, I guess 744 01:21:16,291 --> 01:21:18,083 what the moment Laravel 12 745 01:21:18,083 --> 01:21:19,791 was out there able to go 746 01:21:19,791 --> 01:21:21,208 ahead and merge your pull request 747 01:21:21,541 --> 01:21:25,000 and be supported on Laravel 12. 748 01:21:26,166 --> 01:21:28,541 Yeah, that's honestly the biggest drag. 749 01:21:28,541 --> 01:21:29,458 And again, going back to 750 01:21:29,458 --> 01:21:30,708 kind of the no breaking changes, 751 01:21:30,708 --> 01:21:31,833 like sure, there might 752 01:21:31,833 --> 01:21:32,833 be no breaking changes 753 01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:33,750 from the framework, but 754 01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:35,458 there's still going to be things 755 01:21:35,666 --> 01:21:38,125 that make your upgrade challenging 756 01:21:38,416 --> 01:21:40,041 or things that you might have to do. 757 01:21:40,041 --> 01:21:42,416 And one of the biggest always has been 758 01:21:43,541 --> 01:21:44,250 third party dependencies. 759 01:21:45,166 --> 01:21:46,500 You know, oh, this one's not 760 01:21:46,500 --> 01:21:47,750 compatible for Laravel 12. 761 01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:48,500 I mean, we've all seen 762 01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:51,291 that huge dump of a composer, 763 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:53,166 super technical message, 764 01:21:53,166 --> 01:21:54,375 problem one, problem two, 765 01:21:54,375 --> 01:21:55,750 problem three, problem infinity, 766 01:21:56,125 --> 01:21:57,916 like, oh my God, you know, 767 01:21:57,916 --> 01:21:58,916 and it's just like 17 768 01:21:58,916 --> 01:22:01,333 package, illuminate view, you know, 769 01:22:01,458 --> 01:22:02,833 4.7, it's like, I don't 770 01:22:02,833 --> 01:22:03,916 even know what's going on here. 771 01:22:03,916 --> 01:22:06,208 It's just so much information to digest. 772 01:22:07,416 --> 01:22:08,583 So I hope to help people 773 01:22:08,583 --> 01:22:11,291 stay away, you know, from that. 774 01:22:11,291 --> 01:22:12,208 I hope to kind of protect 775 01:22:12,208 --> 01:22:13,458 them from that in a way. 776 01:22:13,791 --> 01:22:15,583 And so over the years 777 01:22:15,583 --> 01:22:16,625 we had this tool Jess 778 01:22:16,625 --> 01:22:18,333 and I worked on a couple of years back, 779 01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:20,458 it's caniupgradelayervel.com 780 01:22:20,458 --> 01:22:21,583 and it just redirects to a 781 01:22:21,583 --> 01:22:23,416 little service within shift. 782 01:22:23,416 --> 01:22:25,500 You can paste in your composer JSON file 783 01:22:25,500 --> 01:22:26,708 and we kind of give you check boxes 784 01:22:26,916 --> 01:22:28,833 of what has compatibility. 785 01:22:30,666 --> 01:22:31,583 But over the time, I 786 01:22:31,583 --> 01:22:32,916 actually started to take 787 01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:34,583 some of that data that, you know, 788 01:22:34,583 --> 01:22:35,541 you're giving us your 789 01:22:35,541 --> 01:22:36,958 list of packages that you use 790 01:22:36,958 --> 01:22:38,500 and we can kind of start to rank them. 791 01:22:38,500 --> 01:22:39,708 I was already doing this anyways, 792 01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:41,625 when you ran shift to know, 793 01:22:42,291 --> 01:22:43,375 well, what are the big packages 794 01:22:43,375 --> 01:22:45,000 like layervel collective HTML? 795 01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:46,708 It used to be a huge package. 796 01:22:46,708 --> 01:22:49,125 Every application used this thing. 797 01:22:49,833 --> 01:22:50,750 And because of that, it 798 01:22:50,750 --> 01:22:52,375 helped me make shift better 799 01:22:52,375 --> 01:22:53,708 because now I know, okay, 800 01:22:54,041 --> 01:22:55,541 if there was a big breaking change in 801 01:22:55,541 --> 01:22:56,250 layervel collective, 802 01:22:56,250 --> 01:22:57,541 I'm gonna go ahead and do it too. 803 01:22:57,833 --> 01:23:00,625 Even though it's not layervel directly 804 01:23:00,625 --> 01:23:02,083 like framework related change, 805 01:23:02,833 --> 01:23:04,500 I'm going to go ahead and put this in 806 01:23:04,500 --> 01:23:05,750 whatever shift it was, 807 01:23:06,166 --> 01:23:06,833 just cause again, it 808 01:23:06,833 --> 01:23:08,000 makes developer life's easier. 809 01:23:08,416 --> 01:23:10,291 So this is all an effort again, 810 01:23:10,291 --> 01:23:12,333 to kind of just make that 811 01:23:12,333 --> 01:23:14,125 upgrade process seamless 812 01:23:14,125 --> 01:23:15,166 cause there's always 813 01:23:15,166 --> 01:23:16,500 stuff you have to do. 814 01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:18,208 And if I can, there's always something 815 01:23:18,208 --> 01:23:18,833 that's going to be 816 01:23:18,833 --> 01:23:20,416 automated or automatable. 817 01:23:21,125 --> 01:23:21,875 And this is kind of the 818 01:23:21,875 --> 01:23:23,500 last frontier, if you will. 819 01:23:23,500 --> 01:23:25,208 If I can truly even 820 01:23:25,208 --> 01:23:26,541 at a third party level 821 01:23:26,875 --> 01:23:27,458 start to bump 822 01:23:27,458 --> 01:23:29,000 dependencies or let you know, 823 01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:29,791 okay, this one has 824 01:23:29,791 --> 01:23:31,125 their own upgrade guide, 825 01:23:31,583 --> 01:23:33,125 and who knows maybe someday 826 01:23:33,125 --> 01:23:34,583 even start to automate pieces 827 01:23:34,583 --> 01:23:38,166 of that for very popular packages. 828 01:23:39,041 --> 01:23:42,083 That would be ideal. 829 01:23:42,083 --> 01:23:43,000 Cause then you can truly 830 01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:44,833 run shift, you can merge, 831 01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:47,708 and it's just all kind of seamless. 832 01:23:48,416 --> 01:23:50,541 So helping the community get there, 833 01:23:50,541 --> 01:23:51,458 helping the community not 834 01:23:51,458 --> 01:23:54,416 have that drag is important, 835 01:23:54,958 --> 01:23:56,625 not just for shift, but 836 01:23:56,625 --> 01:23:57,666 hopefully, you know, layervel 837 01:23:57,666 --> 01:23:59,041 and the community at large. 838 01:23:59,458 --> 01:24:01,916 I mean, you know, by comparison, 839 01:24:01,916 --> 01:24:03,083 look at communities like 840 01:24:03,083 --> 01:24:04,250 WordPress, for example, 841 01:24:04,500 --> 01:24:06,541 and avoiding all the WP 842 01:24:06,541 --> 01:24:07,583 drama and all that stuff. 843 01:24:07,833 --> 01:24:11,208 Like those communities are in a way, 844 01:24:12,500 --> 01:24:15,208 you know, burdened by the 845 01:24:15,208 --> 01:24:18,833 kind of legacy of the code, 846 01:24:19,666 --> 01:24:20,416 again, cause of their 847 01:24:20,416 --> 01:24:22,208 sheer size of that community. 848 01:24:22,916 --> 01:24:23,666 You know, you probably 849 01:24:23,666 --> 01:24:25,625 have sites running WordPress 850 01:24:25,958 --> 01:24:28,250 three something still, right? 851 01:24:28,916 --> 01:24:30,125 And I don't know the latest greatest 852 01:24:30,125 --> 01:24:31,041 version of WordPress, 853 01:24:31,041 --> 01:24:31,958 but the point is that 854 01:24:31,958 --> 01:24:33,583 WordPress themselves 855 01:24:33,916 --> 01:24:34,750 doesn't want to 856 01:24:34,750 --> 01:24:36,375 alienate that WordPress site 857 01:24:36,375 --> 01:24:38,750 still running version three, right? 858 01:24:39,250 --> 01:24:42,166 So like they can't move as quick. 859 01:24:42,583 --> 01:24:44,000 And I don't think layervel would ever 860 01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:44,708 want to be in a place 861 01:24:44,875 --> 01:24:45,958 where they can't move as 862 01:24:45,958 --> 01:24:47,916 quick as they are, right? 863 01:24:47,916 --> 01:24:49,333 That's kind of a signature, 864 01:24:49,333 --> 01:24:50,416 that's kind of a, again, 865 01:24:50,416 --> 01:24:51,833 a trait of the community 866 01:24:52,083 --> 01:24:53,958 is kind of moving quick 867 01:24:53,958 --> 01:24:55,000 and adopting new features 868 01:24:55,083 --> 01:24:56,000 and just shipping, 869 01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:57,000 shipping, shipping, right? 870 01:24:57,708 --> 01:24:58,625 You can't really ship if 871 01:24:58,625 --> 01:24:59,750 everybody's still running 872 01:24:59,958 --> 01:25:01,958 layervel four two and no packages 873 01:25:02,083 --> 01:25:04,125 are layervel 12 compatible, right? 874 01:25:04,125 --> 01:25:06,041 Like it just, that's where 875 01:25:06,041 --> 01:25:07,250 I tease for another nickname 876 01:25:07,250 --> 01:25:09,250 and kind of call myself the garbage man. 877 01:25:09,250 --> 01:25:11,375 Like I'm taking out the trash, 878 01:25:11,583 --> 01:25:13,666 so our city stays clean, right? 879 01:25:13,666 --> 01:25:15,125 Our community stays clean. 880 01:25:15,791 --> 01:25:17,458 We don't have those as 881 01:25:17,458 --> 01:25:19,083 many of those four two apps 882 01:25:19,208 --> 01:25:20,208 floating out there that 883 01:25:20,208 --> 01:25:21,791 can't do all the cool. 884 01:25:21,791 --> 01:25:22,500 It doesn't matter all the 885 01:25:22,500 --> 01:25:23,458 cool stuff you talk about, 886 01:25:23,458 --> 01:25:25,416 if no one can do it, no 887 01:25:25,416 --> 01:25:26,541 one can run it, right? 888 01:25:27,875 --> 01:25:28,083 Exactly. 889 01:25:28,583 --> 01:25:31,166 And two, I mean, just, you know, 890 01:25:32,416 --> 01:25:33,833 being around a long time, 891 01:25:34,250 --> 01:25:35,666 there's been so many releases 892 01:25:35,875 --> 01:25:37,958 where like I have this obscure package 893 01:25:37,958 --> 01:25:39,458 and it's like, it's just 894 01:25:39,458 --> 01:25:40,500 forgotten about, you know, 895 01:25:40,500 --> 01:25:41,583 GitHub and you like go and 896 01:25:41,583 --> 01:25:42,416 make a comment and be like, 897 01:25:42,416 --> 01:25:43,541 "Hey, can you bump the 898 01:25:43,541 --> 01:25:45,458 version dependency to whatever, 899 01:25:45,625 --> 01:25:46,791 "illuminate 10 or something?" 900 01:25:47,125 --> 01:25:47,375 Yeah. 901 01:25:47,375 --> 01:25:48,833 And it's just dead silent, 902 01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:49,875 you're like here to nothing. 903 01:25:49,875 --> 01:25:51,416 And it's like, well, I can't update 904 01:25:51,541 --> 01:25:52,458 until we get this fixed. 905 01:25:52,458 --> 01:25:52,875 And then it's like, 906 01:25:52,875 --> 01:25:54,083 oh, well, now I gotta go 907 01:25:55,041 --> 01:25:56,916 figure out how to like run 908 01:25:56,916 --> 01:25:58,708 my own fork of this package. 909 01:25:58,958 --> 01:25:59,166 Yeah. 910 01:25:59,583 --> 01:26:00,916 It's just the whole thing. 911 01:26:00,916 --> 01:26:02,041 And so, you know, I 912 01:26:02,041 --> 01:26:03,750 greatly appreciate you doing this 913 01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:05,875 as a community service on that angle, 914 01:26:05,875 --> 01:26:06,708 because I think it is 915 01:26:06,708 --> 01:26:09,916 hugely beneficial for maintainers 916 01:26:09,916 --> 01:26:10,875 and for the people that are 917 01:26:10,875 --> 01:26:12,166 just waiting on these updates 918 01:26:12,166 --> 01:26:12,958 that they can't get. 919 01:26:13,583 --> 01:26:14,333 Yeah, yeah. 920 01:26:14,541 --> 01:26:15,958 Again, I just think it's an all around 921 01:26:15,958 --> 01:26:17,166 good community service. 922 01:26:17,375 --> 01:26:19,333 Like sure, you can peg it as marketing 923 01:26:19,333 --> 01:26:20,333 for shift or whatever, 924 01:26:20,500 --> 01:26:22,583 but I'm not making anything 925 01:26:22,583 --> 01:26:24,875 directly off of those PRs. 926 01:26:24,875 --> 01:26:27,041 They just truly help the community. 927 01:26:27,333 --> 01:26:28,000 They help me. 928 01:26:28,333 --> 01:26:29,375 I mean, just like you, I 929 01:26:29,375 --> 01:26:31,333 use third party packages that, 930 01:26:31,750 --> 01:26:33,250 you know, Vimeo is a prime example. 931 01:26:33,666 --> 01:26:34,833 I think Ben and I 932 01:26:34,833 --> 01:26:35,791 always tease about this, 933 01:26:36,166 --> 01:26:37,708 that like, you know, 934 01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:39,416 that package has never, 935 01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:43,000 it'll be like August and it still is not 936 01:26:43,083 --> 01:26:44,583 Laravel 12 compatible, you know? 937 01:26:44,583 --> 01:26:46,083 It's been six months since the release. 938 01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:48,000 But you know, day one, 939 01:26:48,375 --> 01:26:50,000 you can at least see the PR from shift. 940 01:26:50,166 --> 01:26:52,000 And a lot of times it is just simply a 941 01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:53,250 composer dependency bump. 942 01:26:53,500 --> 01:26:54,083 You know, there's not, 943 01:26:54,708 --> 01:26:56,291 again, no breaking changes. 944 01:26:56,375 --> 01:26:57,458 There's not anything that 945 01:26:57,458 --> 01:26:59,000 you need to do theoretically 946 01:26:59,208 --> 01:27:01,083 for Laravel 12 other than just make sure 947 01:27:01,083 --> 01:27:04,041 your composer compatibility exists. 948 01:27:07,041 --> 01:27:09,708 Yeah, so here's a question. 949 01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:11,833 So I did a little AMA on 950 01:27:11,833 --> 01:27:13,041 Instagram where I was just like, 951 01:27:13,041 --> 01:27:14,666 hey, I'm going to interview, you know, 952 01:27:15,083 --> 01:27:16,333 JMac from Laravel 953 01:27:16,333 --> 01:27:17,333 shift, you got any questions? 954 01:27:18,333 --> 01:27:19,333 So one of the questions 955 01:27:19,333 --> 01:27:21,541 were is does Laravel shift, 956 01:27:23,041 --> 01:27:24,708 let me see if I can speak, does Laravel 957 01:27:24,708 --> 01:27:27,541 shift support complex updates? 958 01:27:28,041 --> 01:27:29,333 And there's they didn't 959 01:27:29,333 --> 01:27:30,416 give really in context, 960 01:27:30,500 --> 01:27:32,416 but I'm assuming like one of these, 961 01:27:33,625 --> 01:27:35,666 you know, crazy apps that people just 962 01:27:35,666 --> 01:27:37,041 built back in the day 963 01:27:37,041 --> 01:27:38,166 that has all this crazy stuff. 964 01:27:39,125 --> 01:27:40,250 Does it have support for 965 01:27:40,250 --> 01:27:43,333 like out of the box things or is 966 01:27:43,333 --> 01:27:45,125 or do you take that 967 01:27:45,125 --> 01:27:46,041 question a different way? 968 01:27:46,083 --> 01:27:47,500 Maybe that's the maybe I 969 01:27:47,500 --> 01:27:48,833 should ask you your opinion on it. 970 01:27:49,666 --> 01:27:50,916 There's probably a lot of different ways 971 01:27:50,916 --> 01:27:52,500 you could read into complex. 972 01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:56,833 My guess is probably the way in which 973 01:27:56,833 --> 01:27:58,958 they they're structuring the app. 974 01:27:59,250 --> 01:28:00,958 Right. Maybe maybe they're doing some 975 01:28:00,958 --> 01:28:03,000 quote unquote unconventional things. 976 01:28:03,125 --> 01:28:06,333 Right. So I think historically, 977 01:28:07,125 --> 01:28:09,083 there might have been more truth to the 978 01:28:09,083 --> 01:28:10,791 fact that if you use, 979 01:28:10,791 --> 01:28:12,083 if you followed Laravel conventions, 980 01:28:13,083 --> 01:28:14,500 that shift is for 981 01:28:14,500 --> 01:28:15,791 those conventional apps. 982 01:28:16,291 --> 01:28:18,125 I think that might have used to be true, 983 01:28:18,375 --> 01:28:21,583 like early Laravel 5 versions, 984 01:28:22,208 --> 01:28:25,875 but probably around 5.6, 5.7, 985 01:28:26,833 --> 01:28:30,875 I started switching to more static 986 01:28:30,875 --> 01:28:34,125 analysis inside of the shift, 987 01:28:34,125 --> 01:28:35,416 you know, what I call the engine. 988 01:28:36,666 --> 01:28:39,500 And once I did that, it really didn't 989 01:28:39,500 --> 01:28:40,875 matter what conventions you follow 990 01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:42,083 because I'm really just 991 01:28:42,083 --> 01:28:44,291 parsing PHP at that point. 992 01:28:44,291 --> 01:28:45,333 I'm not looking for like 993 01:28:45,333 --> 01:28:47,958 Laravel syntax per se, right? 994 01:28:48,458 --> 01:28:51,041 I'm just, hey, if you've got X method in 995 01:28:51,041 --> 01:28:52,625 your abstract syntax tree, 996 01:28:52,625 --> 01:28:54,458 like I'm going to do something with it. 997 01:28:55,250 --> 01:28:57,000 And so at that point shift became much 998 01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:59,750 more robust for complex applications 999 01:28:59,750 --> 01:29:01,833 or applications that are unconventional. 1000 01:29:02,333 --> 01:29:03,916 Like if you mean complex in the sheer 1001 01:29:03,916 --> 01:29:07,000 size of code shifts a computer, 1002 01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:07,916 it doesn't matter. 1003 01:29:07,958 --> 01:29:09,541 It doesn't matter if it's a hundred 1004 01:29:09,541 --> 01:29:12,083 thousand files or 10 files in your app. 1005 01:29:12,083 --> 01:29:13,666 It doesn't matter if you have 200 1006 01:29:13,666 --> 01:29:15,000 controllers or 300 1007 01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:16,083 models, it doesn't matter. 1008 01:29:16,416 --> 01:29:17,291 It might take five or 1009 01:29:17,291 --> 01:29:18,541 six more seconds to run, 1010 01:29:18,541 --> 01:29:20,958 but as far as the automation itself, 1011 01:29:20,958 --> 01:29:22,958 it is not more complex just 1012 01:29:22,958 --> 01:29:24,208 because your app is large. 1013 01:29:25,208 --> 01:29:26,000 So I think complex apps 1014 01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:27,291 probably means, you know, 1015 01:29:27,958 --> 01:29:29,583 maybe you have your own namespaces, 1016 01:29:29,875 --> 01:29:31,166 you've subnamespace things, 1017 01:29:31,583 --> 01:29:32,500 you know, maybe you're 1018 01:29:32,500 --> 01:29:34,125 following like a modular design. 1019 01:29:35,125 --> 01:29:36,958 For the most part shift is going to 1020 01:29:36,958 --> 01:29:39,416 handle those without any problem. 1021 01:29:39,916 --> 01:29:41,666 I think the only area where it gets, 1022 01:29:42,291 --> 01:29:43,041 where it might get a 1023 01:29:43,041 --> 01:29:45,500 little funny is, again, 1024 01:29:45,708 --> 01:29:47,583 if you're following a modular 1025 01:29:47,583 --> 01:29:50,541 design with a very opinionated, 1026 01:29:50,916 --> 01:29:51,708 you know, there's some third party 1027 01:29:51,708 --> 01:29:54,291 packages that do modular domain design 1028 01:29:54,291 --> 01:29:55,500 and they're very opinionated. 1029 01:29:56,291 --> 01:29:57,041 The way in which they 1030 01:29:57,041 --> 01:29:59,041 might structure that code, 1031 01:29:59,041 --> 01:30:00,000 they're probably things 1032 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:01,083 that shift could miss, 1033 01:30:01,125 --> 01:30:02,458 but the argument would be that, 1034 01:30:03,125 --> 01:30:03,916 well, that's the upgrade 1035 01:30:03,916 --> 01:30:04,833 guide for that package. 1036 01:30:05,083 --> 01:30:07,041 Like you chose to use that package and 1037 01:30:07,041 --> 01:30:09,000 therefore you're choosing to take on, 1038 01:30:09,708 --> 01:30:11,625 you know, you made a trade off to take on 1039 01:30:11,625 --> 01:30:14,791 that upgrade framework as well, right? 1040 01:30:14,791 --> 01:30:15,833 Like you're kind of using a micro 1041 01:30:15,833 --> 01:30:17,250 framework in that scenario. 1042 01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:19,500 So you have to go upgrade it on your own. 1043 01:30:19,500 --> 01:30:20,875 I didn't make a shift for that thing. 1044 01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:24,708 So yeah, that makes sense. 1045 01:30:24,708 --> 01:30:27,333 Yeah, the I'm always curious to like, 1046 01:30:28,250 --> 01:30:30,666 when I think complex, I think of like the 1047 01:30:30,666 --> 01:30:32,916 modules like you alluded to, 1048 01:30:32,916 --> 01:30:34,541 but I'm a, you know, with there's so many 1049 01:30:34,541 --> 01:30:35,416 little apps out there, 1050 01:30:35,416 --> 01:30:37,250 I'm sure like you've seen some of the 1051 01:30:37,250 --> 01:30:39,583 craziest stuff that's been created. 1052 01:30:40,166 --> 01:30:42,083 And modules is probably not the craziest. 1053 01:30:42,875 --> 01:30:44,000 No, no. 1054 01:30:44,791 --> 01:30:45,958 Yeah, I mean, if you're if you mean 1055 01:30:45,958 --> 01:30:48,250 complexes and you don't use eloquent 1056 01:30:48,250 --> 01:30:50,916 and you use doctrine directly, yeah, I 1057 01:30:50,916 --> 01:30:52,666 probably can't help you too much there. 1058 01:30:52,666 --> 01:30:52,875 Sorry. 1059 01:30:53,083 --> 01:30:54,791 So there are boundaries for sure. 1060 01:30:55,291 --> 01:30:58,208 But yeah, if you if you do things mostly 1061 01:30:58,208 --> 01:31:00,458 conventional and, and, you know, 1062 01:31:01,041 --> 01:31:02,666 let you're not using any kind of against 1063 01:31:02,666 --> 01:31:05,541 sub package that has its own conventions 1064 01:31:05,541 --> 01:31:06,833 that if kind of 1065 01:31:06,833 --> 01:31:07,916 exists in your application, 1066 01:31:08,416 --> 01:31:10,875 I think that, you know, shift shift is 1067 01:31:10,875 --> 01:31:12,125 going to have you 100%. 1068 01:31:12,458 --> 01:31:15,541 But yeah, and the other thing to you to 1069 01:31:15,541 --> 01:31:16,500 the point that you said, 1070 01:31:16,500 --> 01:31:20,250 and again, the whole thing of 10 years 1071 01:31:20,250 --> 01:31:22,041 and the upgrades and the context, 1072 01:31:22,708 --> 01:31:24,666 you know, I've answered 1073 01:31:24,666 --> 01:31:27,291 thousands of emails that have, 1074 01:31:27,625 --> 01:31:29,000 oh, well shifted great, 1075 01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:30,500 but it missed this, right? 1076 01:31:30,500 --> 01:31:31,291 It missed this little, 1077 01:31:31,291 --> 01:31:32,000 here's the little myth, 1078 01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:33,375 because every everyone that runs a shift, 1079 01:31:33,375 --> 01:31:34,291 especially the new ones, 1080 01:31:34,625 --> 01:31:35,833 I have a follow up email 1081 01:31:35,833 --> 01:31:36,833 and I say, hey, how'd it go? 1082 01:31:37,125 --> 01:31:38,875 Did you have to make any manual changes? 1083 01:31:39,083 --> 01:31:40,708 I read every single one of those. 1084 01:31:40,708 --> 01:31:42,000 I've done that for 10 years. 1085 01:31:42,291 --> 01:31:47,125 So the the depth that shift can go to 1086 01:31:47,125 --> 01:31:49,791 make, you know, these changes, 1087 01:31:49,791 --> 01:31:50,916 it's not again, it's not 1088 01:31:50,916 --> 01:31:51,916 just the upgrade guide. 1089 01:31:51,916 --> 01:31:54,083 It's the upgrade guide plus 10,000 of 1090 01:31:54,083 --> 01:31:55,000 your fellow developers 1091 01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,916 that are giving me feedback and saying, 1092 01:31:57,916 --> 01:31:59,333 Oh, this is good, but 1093 01:31:59,333 --> 01:32:00,291 here's this other change. 1094 01:32:00,291 --> 01:32:02,166 It's not documented, but it affected us. 1095 01:32:03,250 --> 01:32:04,416 Add automation for it, add 1096 01:32:04,416 --> 01:32:05,875 a PR comment, add something, 1097 01:32:05,875 --> 01:32:07,541 something's going to be in shift that's 1098 01:32:07,541 --> 01:32:08,291 going to let you know. 1099 01:32:08,541 --> 01:32:10,958 So sure, while something maybe wasn't a 1100 01:32:10,958 --> 01:32:12,500 breaking change or even documented, 1101 01:32:12,916 --> 01:32:13,875 shift is probably still 1102 01:32:13,875 --> 01:32:14,750 going to sniff that out, 1103 01:32:14,750 --> 01:32:17,041 or it's still going to do that for you. 1104 01:32:17,041 --> 01:32:18,250 And you'll, hopefully, 1105 01:32:18,250 --> 01:32:19,500 you're never the wiser, right? 1106 01:32:19,500 --> 01:32:19,958 Because that's the whole 1107 01:32:19,958 --> 01:32:20,875 point, just make it easy. 1108 01:32:21,333 --> 01:32:22,250 But it's in there. 1109 01:32:22,625 --> 01:32:23,541 That domain knowledge 1110 01:32:23,541 --> 01:32:26,333 is it's all right here. 1111 01:32:26,333 --> 01:32:28,375 I love that. 1112 01:32:29,250 --> 01:32:33,916 Yeah, it's one of those under the radar 1113 01:32:33,916 --> 01:32:37,000 services that I think is unique to 1114 01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,000 Laravel that a lot of other 1115 01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:40,083 communities do not have. 1116 01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:43,375 And for me, it's just like, it's like the 1117 01:32:43,375 --> 01:32:45,666 perfect add on to a framework. 1118 01:32:45,916 --> 01:32:47,291 It's like, this is this is great. 1119 01:32:48,541 --> 01:32:49,333 And that's that track. 1120 01:32:49,625 --> 01:32:50,625 I appreciate you doing it. 1121 01:32:50,625 --> 01:32:50,833 Yeah. 1122 01:32:51,041 --> 01:32:51,333 Yeah. 1123 01:32:51,583 --> 01:32:54,250 And no, I appreciate it too, because I 1124 01:32:54,250 --> 01:32:56,291 think that's where I take a 1125 01:32:56,291 --> 01:32:57,916 little bit of that self-pride. 1126 01:32:57,916 --> 01:32:59,958 Again, I joke and say garbage man, but 1127 01:32:59,958 --> 01:33:01,500 those other communities, 1128 01:33:01,916 --> 01:33:03,625 they might have this drag that I'm 1129 01:33:03,625 --> 01:33:04,583 talking about because 1130 01:33:04,583 --> 01:33:07,041 this service is missing. 1131 01:33:07,041 --> 01:33:10,000 And so I'm glad to have made it and to 1132 01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:11,916 offer it if that's what it's doing. 1133 01:33:11,916 --> 01:33:12,500 Because again, that was 1134 01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:13,833 always kind of the sub-goal. 1135 01:33:13,833 --> 01:33:14,875 Sure, I needed to use this 1136 01:33:14,875 --> 01:33:16,458 myself way back in the day. 1137 01:33:16,458 --> 01:33:18,666 And sure, Taylor gave me 1138 01:33:18,666 --> 01:33:19,750 some motivational words. 1139 01:33:19,916 --> 01:33:23,250 But the fact that it's still here is 1140 01:33:23,250 --> 01:33:26,000 because it's bringing that value. 1141 01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:27,375 And again, there's always going to be 1142 01:33:27,375 --> 01:33:30,708 changes to make in every application. 1143 01:33:31,416 --> 01:33:34,375 And I'm glad that the community sees and 1144 01:33:34,375 --> 01:33:36,208 appreciates the value of that. 1145 01:33:36,208 --> 01:33:37,000 And I hope that it helps 1146 01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:39,208 keep Laravel charging ahead. 1147 01:33:39,875 --> 01:33:40,041 Right. 1148 01:33:41,625 --> 01:33:41,958 For sure. 1149 01:33:42,208 --> 01:33:42,541 For sure. 1150 01:33:44,416 --> 01:33:46,250 As far as my questions, you 1151 01:33:46,250 --> 01:33:47,666 have answered all of them. 1152 01:33:48,250 --> 01:33:48,458 Thanks. 1153 01:33:48,875 --> 01:33:50,958 Did I miss anything you want to talk 1154 01:33:50,958 --> 01:33:52,416 about while we're on here? 1155 01:33:54,166 --> 01:33:54,916 I don't think so. 1156 01:33:54,916 --> 01:33:57,125 You know, again, I'm looking forward to 1157 01:33:57,125 --> 01:33:58,166 the Laravel 12 shift, 1158 01:33:58,166 --> 01:33:59,375 not just because the 1159 01:33:59,375 --> 01:34:02,333 release date is soon. 1160 01:34:03,041 --> 01:34:05,291 You know, I kind of start to breathe easy 1161 01:34:05,291 --> 01:34:07,833 after the Litterville 12 shift is done. 1162 01:34:08,375 --> 01:34:09,750 But also so many other things that, 1163 01:34:09,750 --> 01:34:10,625 again, Litterville is just 1164 01:34:10,625 --> 01:34:11,750 shipping, shipping, shipping. 1165 01:34:12,083 --> 01:34:12,583 So many other things. 1166 01:34:12,791 --> 01:34:14,500 Clouds coming out, the new starter kits. 1167 01:34:15,083 --> 01:34:15,875 And maybe there's 1168 01:34:15,875 --> 01:34:17,333 opportunity there in the starter kits. 1169 01:34:17,375 --> 01:34:19,333 Maybe there's a shift for old starter 1170 01:34:19,333 --> 01:34:20,333 kits to get you into 1171 01:34:20,333 --> 01:34:21,333 the new starter kits. 1172 01:34:21,333 --> 01:34:23,583 You know, so there's so many things that 1173 01:34:23,583 --> 01:34:24,708 shift is always going to 1174 01:34:24,708 --> 01:34:25,875 be able to look at that, 1175 01:34:25,875 --> 01:34:29,000 even if, you know, there just truly was 1176 01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,000 some kind of seamless, beautiful upgrade 1177 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:33,416 built into Litterville. 1178 01:34:34,958 --> 01:34:37,333 You know, I think shift would still have 1179 01:34:37,333 --> 01:34:40,208 a place, hopefully within the community. 1180 01:34:40,541 --> 01:34:42,875 But I'm looking forward to making a lot 1181 01:34:42,875 --> 01:34:43,458 of like the 1182 01:34:43,458 --> 01:34:44,583 Litterville 12 shift is actually 1183 01:34:44,791 --> 01:34:46,875 pretty big for what I've built so far. 1184 01:34:46,916 --> 01:34:47,833 I'll probably have a 1185 01:34:47,833 --> 01:34:49,750 pre-release early next week. 1186 01:34:49,750 --> 01:34:51,791 I like to have a pre-release to let those 1187 01:34:51,791 --> 01:34:54,250 early adopters test shift, 1188 01:34:54,250 --> 01:34:55,500 but also Litterville 12, right? 1189 01:34:55,958 --> 01:34:57,208 Like, you know, get more people maybe 1190 01:34:57,208 --> 01:34:58,541 using it before it's released. 1191 01:35:00,291 --> 01:35:01,625 You know, I'm excited for the automation. 1192 01:35:01,625 --> 01:35:02,416 And I've done a lot. 1193 01:35:02,791 --> 01:35:04,458 I've been able to focus a lot more on the 1194 01:35:04,458 --> 01:35:07,750 conventional refactors this time around. 1195 01:35:07,750 --> 01:35:09,875 I think the people that stick around and 1196 01:35:09,875 --> 01:35:11,125 use the Laravel 12 1197 01:35:11,125 --> 01:35:12,125 shift are going to be surprised 1198 01:35:12,125 --> 01:35:14,125 at just like you were with Laravel 11 1199 01:35:14,125 --> 01:35:15,666 on the stuff that comes across. 1200 01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:18,250 It's always going above and beyond. 1201 01:35:19,416 --> 01:35:20,000 And it's definitely 1202 01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:20,875 going to do that this time. 1203 01:35:22,416 --> 01:35:24,166 Yeah. Well, yeah. 1204 01:35:25,458 --> 01:35:27,750 To me, it too, this sort of comes back to 1205 01:35:27,750 --> 01:35:28,875 like you said about WordPress. 1206 01:35:28,875 --> 01:35:29,625 Like if you have WordPress 1207 01:35:29,625 --> 01:35:31,291 version two, it might still run. 1208 01:35:31,958 --> 01:35:35,333 But you're missing out on all the new 1209 01:35:35,333 --> 01:35:37,041 features that's been launched since then. 1210 01:35:37,541 --> 01:35:39,291 And, you know, I don't even know if 1211 01:35:39,291 --> 01:35:40,583 there's an easy way to upgrade WordPress. 1212 01:35:41,083 --> 01:35:42,250 I assume there might be. 1213 01:35:42,250 --> 01:35:42,708 I don't know. 1214 01:35:44,625 --> 01:35:45,708 But yeah, that's just wild. 1215 01:35:46,791 --> 01:35:47,958 But yeah, man, well, I want 1216 01:35:47,958 --> 01:35:49,250 to say thank you for coming on, 1217 01:35:49,250 --> 01:35:50,833 spending some time with us and going 1218 01:35:50,833 --> 01:35:51,750 through all the stuff. 1219 01:35:51,750 --> 01:35:52,250 You know, I'm really 1220 01:35:52,250 --> 01:35:53,166 looking forward to Litterville 12, 1221 01:35:53,541 --> 01:35:55,541 Litterville shift, seeing you at Laricon. 1222 01:35:56,041 --> 01:35:56,375 Oh, yeah. 1223 01:35:56,958 --> 01:35:58,291 All right. Good, good, good. 1224 01:35:58,625 --> 01:35:59,166 Yeah, I'll be there. 1225 01:35:59,208 --> 01:36:01,166 I already got my ticket, but I submitted 1226 01:36:01,166 --> 01:36:02,666 a talk or two this time around. 1227 01:36:02,916 --> 01:36:05,583 So I'm hoping maybe I can land on stage. 1228 01:36:05,583 --> 01:36:06,708 But the team is so 1229 01:36:06,708 --> 01:36:08,791 large now that I don't know. 1230 01:36:08,791 --> 01:36:10,125 That's some tough competition. 1231 01:36:10,333 --> 01:36:10,875 We'll see. 1232 01:36:10,875 --> 01:36:12,250 But I'd love to be able to get on stage 1233 01:36:12,250 --> 01:36:13,333 again someday before 1234 01:36:13,333 --> 01:36:14,916 I'm too old man, JMac. 1235 01:36:15,125 --> 01:36:15,458 We'll see. 1236 01:36:16,416 --> 01:36:18,666 That sounds good. 1237 01:36:18,666 --> 01:36:19,416 Well, thank you, JMac, for 1238 01:36:19,416 --> 01:36:20,541 coming and being on the show. 1239 01:36:21,916 --> 01:36:22,291 Cool, man. 1240 01:36:22,666 --> 01:36:23,041 See you.