00:00:30.125 --> 00:00:30.755 Bryant Gillespie: All right. 00:00:30.855 --> 00:00:35.205 This is Bryant and welcome to the inaugural. 00:00:35.805 --> 00:00:38.595 Fantastic, better sign shop podcast. 00:00:39.595 --> 00:00:41.305 My co-hosts Peter. 00:00:41.305 --> 00:00:43.465 Karuna's the sign shop Yoda. 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:45.579 Peter Kourounis: Thank you for pronouncing my last name. 00:00:45.579 --> 00:00:45.789 Right? 00:00:45.789 --> 00:00:46.599 I appreciate that. 00:00:47.829 --> 00:00:48.129 The other 00:00:48.129 --> 00:00:51.759 Bryant Gillespie: cohost, Michael Riley, the baby sign, shop Yoda, 00:00:53.279 --> 00:00:54.069 Michael Riley: baby Yoda, 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:55.569 Bryant Gillespie: the baby Yoda. 00:00:55.929 --> 00:00:57.351 What is what's your latest nickname? 00:00:57.621 --> 00:00:59.601 Do we, do we give you another one or no, 00:00:59.751 --> 00:01:01.451 Michael Riley: we just want to, we never gave me another one. 00:01:01.451 --> 00:01:03.701 Now we need to, we need to brainstorm on that. 00:01:04.391 --> 00:01:05.531 Bryant Gillespie: I saw that you put. 00:01:07.021 --> 00:01:12.391 That, that article that you put up on your blog had me as sign, shop Yoda as well. 00:01:12.901 --> 00:01:16.111 So I feel like we need to get like clear on who's Yoda and who's 00:01:17.071 --> 00:01:21.541 Michael Riley: not w we need to expand and like other Saifai universities as 00:01:21.541 --> 00:01:23.191 well, get to get away from star wars. 00:01:24.031 --> 00:01:24.721 I'll be spots. 00:01:25.441 --> 00:01:26.671 I'll be this online shop Spock. 00:01:28.381 --> 00:01:28.681 Nice. 00:01:29.401 --> 00:01:31.321 Bryant Gillespie: Today, we're talking pricing problems. 00:01:31.381 --> 00:01:31.771 Boom. 00:01:32.041 --> 00:01:35.431 As Peter says, let's jump right into it guys. 00:01:35.761 --> 00:01:39.001 Peter, you're the only one that still has a sign shop. 00:01:40.381 --> 00:01:41.731 What's your number one pricing problem. 00:01:42.901 --> 00:01:46.171 Peter Kourounis: Mike, am I the only one I don't have manage? 00:01:47.236 --> 00:01:47.896 Well, all right. 00:01:47.926 --> 00:01:48.376 All right. 00:01:48.376 --> 00:01:49.126 Well, yeah. 00:01:49.486 --> 00:01:49.966 That's all right. 00:01:49.966 --> 00:01:52.516 So, okay, so I'll, I'm the only one with the sunshine. 00:01:52.546 --> 00:01:53.206 That's interesting. 00:01:53.236 --> 00:01:53.926 Fucking great. 00:01:55.066 --> 00:01:59.791 Well, anyway, here, listen number one, number one, most common problem that 00:01:59.791 --> 00:02:07.471 I go through right now is not really knowing if, how much profit I'm actually. 00:02:08.266 --> 00:02:08.626 Right. 00:02:08.686 --> 00:02:13.066 And whether I'm too cheap or too expensive, I mean, this is, I'm sure there 00:02:13.066 --> 00:02:16.516 are many side shop owners out there, many prayer and shop owners out there that, 00:02:16.606 --> 00:02:19.486 that tend to have the same, same problem. 00:02:19.846 --> 00:02:24.616 But when I give out a price, what is the, what is the backbone behind that price? 00:02:24.616 --> 00:02:27.166 What is the knowledge behind that price? 00:02:27.196 --> 00:02:27.706 Is it. 00:02:29.221 --> 00:02:32.851 Am I neglecting the customer's needs by not asking additional questions. 00:02:32.851 --> 00:02:37.591 Is it, is it a matter of just get them a price so that they can say yes or no? 00:02:37.801 --> 00:02:39.571 Am I really taking the necessary time? 00:02:39.571 --> 00:02:43.771 There's a lot impact a lot to unpack, excuse me, in that topic 00:02:43.771 --> 00:02:47.731 there of whether or not my price is too cheap or too expensive, but 00:02:47.731 --> 00:02:50.761 that to me is the biggest problem. 00:02:50.761 --> 00:02:51.241 What are you guys? 00:02:52.171 --> 00:02:52.831 Well, let's, let's 00:02:52.861 --> 00:02:54.061 Bryant Gillespie: dive into the first one, right? 00:02:54.361 --> 00:02:55.471 Is it too cheap? 00:02:56.911 --> 00:03:03.241 I can tell you from experience in my old shop, we were always, always, 00:03:03.241 --> 00:03:05.671 always busy and it felt really good. 00:03:05.941 --> 00:03:10.171 You know, you get to the end of the day and there's 20 jobs that you've had. 00:03:10.247 --> 00:03:13.487 But when you start to look at the actual numbers are at the end 00:03:13.487 --> 00:03:15.347 of the year was a good example. 00:03:15.677 --> 00:03:18.357 Like you look at all that work that you've produced, and then you 00:03:18.387 --> 00:03:22.607 start looking at your profit and loss and you're like, shit, man. 00:03:22.607 --> 00:03:27.047 Like we were really busy, like where where's this money at this? 00:03:27.557 --> 00:03:32.327 You know, it felt like, okay, being busy is really good, but as far as the 00:03:32.327 --> 00:03:36.557 P and L like the numbers may not, they weren't really translating to what. 00:03:37.702 --> 00:03:39.472 Like all the work that we actually produced. 00:03:41.867 --> 00:03:42.527 Peter Kourounis: That's a great point. 00:03:42.527 --> 00:03:45.707 I mean, I, I tend to think that the profit and loss really dictates 00:03:45.707 --> 00:03:47.507 whether or not you're too cheap or too. 00:03:47.897 --> 00:03:50.417 I don't know if it will dictate if you're too expensive, but it will 00:03:50.417 --> 00:03:52.007 certainly dictate if you're too cheap. 00:03:52.247 --> 00:03:55.727 When those percentage points come back, whenever you're reviewing your 00:03:55.727 --> 00:04:00.287 financial statements, you can see like, Hey, you know, I'm really low here. 00:04:00.357 --> 00:04:02.577 You know, what's a good way to re increase. 00:04:02.577 --> 00:04:08.097 These percentages is increased sales increase pricing, re take, but most 00:04:08.097 --> 00:04:12.807 people, most people will tend to look at something like that and immediately 00:04:12.807 --> 00:04:14.217 think they have to cut costs. 00:04:15.147 --> 00:04:18.207 You know, cognitive costs will also increase those percentages, 00:04:18.207 --> 00:04:21.687 but may not be the right decision. 00:04:22.077 --> 00:04:22.767 Does that make sense? 00:04:22.947 --> 00:04:23.497 Yeah. 00:04:26.217 --> 00:04:26.427 Yeah. 00:04:26.487 --> 00:04:27.217 I feel like that's like, 00:04:28.467 --> 00:04:30.910 Bryant Gillespie: at some point it's like the like just drink 00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:34.240 less lattes kind of argument for like your own personal budget. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:40.570 Like, ah, Hey, if I just cut out lattes and I use this as an example, because my 00:04:40.570 --> 00:04:45.640 wife and I drink like $12 worth of coffee at the coffee shop every single day. 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:49.405 And like, you look at it and it's like, Sure. 00:04:49.435 --> 00:04:53.065 That's like 400 bucks a month that you spend on coffee that like, you could 00:04:53.065 --> 00:04:59.545 just buy like the K-cups and yeah, it'd be fine, but yeah, like we enjoy it. 00:05:00.985 --> 00:05:01.705 We could spend it. 00:05:02.245 --> 00:05:02.695 Why not? 00:05:03.325 --> 00:05:03.968 But yeah. 00:05:04.928 --> 00:05:05.798 Expenses, Mike. 00:05:06.668 --> 00:05:07.478 Sorry to interrupt. 00:05:08.078 --> 00:05:09.368 Michael Riley: Oh, no, no, you're you're fine. 00:05:09.368 --> 00:05:11.798 So yeah, like when you say you look at your P and L. 00:05:13.778 --> 00:05:15.458 Because Peter, what do you mean by that? 00:05:15.458 --> 00:05:17.288 You mean, you know, I need to reduce overhead. 00:05:17.288 --> 00:05:20.348 I need to like, get sharpen my pencil with my vendors. 00:05:21.518 --> 00:05:21.788 Peter Kourounis: Yeah. 00:05:21.788 --> 00:05:25.508 So let's, let's, let's put up a metaphorical profit and loss 00:05:25.508 --> 00:05:26.618 statement in front of you, right. 00:05:26.618 --> 00:05:27.398 Let's just argument. 00:05:27.398 --> 00:05:31.958 And a really say you sold a hundred thousand dollars in sales for that period. 00:05:32.978 --> 00:05:38.918 If your gross profit margin is. 00:05:41.363 --> 00:05:44.753 40% let's say, but then you take a look at. 00:05:45.578 --> 00:05:48.728 Your overhead and you're at your you're at your bare minimum 00:05:48.728 --> 00:05:50.258 on those percentages, right? 00:05:50.588 --> 00:05:52.178 How do you increase your net profit? 00:05:52.208 --> 00:05:56.498 You increase your net profit by either increasing your sales or cutting expenses. 00:05:56.528 --> 00:06:00.788 When I was saying is most people would look at like a hundred thousand dollars 00:06:00.788 --> 00:06:03.548 and say, that's all I was able to produce. 00:06:04.298 --> 00:06:08.558 And if that's all I'm able to produce, then I have to cut calls. 00:06:08.918 --> 00:06:10.418 There's a, it's just a mentality. 00:06:10.448 --> 00:06:13.718 It's a way that most of, most of us tend to think a little bit. 00:06:14.858 --> 00:06:16.298 Pessimistic than optimistic. 00:06:16.298 --> 00:06:20.138 So when you look at your profit and loss and you say, Hey, I can increase 00:06:20.138 --> 00:06:23.378 my net profits by drinking less lattes. 00:06:25.148 --> 00:06:25.538 Right. 00:06:26.018 --> 00:06:31.178 I can, instead of saying, I can increase my net profits by penetrating this. 00:06:32.453 --> 00:06:36.413 Going into more costumers raising my prices and increasing 00:06:36.413 --> 00:06:37.463 those percentage points. 00:06:37.523 --> 00:06:42.533 That way I tend to be more top heavy, you know, glass, half full kind of guy, 00:06:42.983 --> 00:06:46.493 you know, thinking if I, if I did 500 grand or a million dollars in sales, 00:06:46.493 --> 00:06:49.643 how do I reach 1.2 million, 1.5 million. 00:06:50.123 --> 00:06:52.283 I'm not looking to increase my bottom line by. 00:06:53.653 --> 00:06:58.140 Making those cuts which is often a problem that I've seen in the past. 00:06:58.170 --> 00:07:02.220 Even with, even with, you know, owners that I've met with, you know, they, they 00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:05.520 look at like, Hey, I only did 30,000 and I can't afford my rent this month. 00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:07.620 So now I can't afford them getting anybody. 00:07:08.545 --> 00:07:08.845 Right. 00:07:08.845 --> 00:07:09.295 And I 00:07:09.355 --> 00:07:10.765 Bryant Gillespie: got to get out there and sell more. 00:07:10.765 --> 00:07:12.895 And that's the case and that, 00:07:13.555 --> 00:07:16.615 Peter Kourounis: and that's like cutting the head off of your operation. 00:07:16.645 --> 00:07:20.005 You know, like I can't invest the money into, into new sales coming 00:07:20.005 --> 00:07:21.505 in because I need to pay my rent, 00:07:22.945 --> 00:07:25.885 Bryant Gillespie: the marketing budget, you know, that's to me, 00:07:25.885 --> 00:07:30.655 like, I I've always like saw people in that scenario of like, Hey, I 00:07:30.655 --> 00:07:33.025 can't afford to run ads this month. 00:07:33.145 --> 00:07:36.890 And it's like, Like to find that somewhere else, man. 00:07:36.893 --> 00:07:41.123 Yeah, like, like the other part or the other problem with it, like looking 00:07:41.123 --> 00:07:45.023 at it from the expense side is like, there's, there's a, a floor there, like. 00:07:46.088 --> 00:07:51.038 There's a limit of what you can actually cut and obviously, like it's not going to 00:07:51.038 --> 00:07:52.928 be a lot of fun depending on what you cut. 00:07:53.078 --> 00:07:53.348 Yeah. 00:07:53.388 --> 00:07:56.588 Depending on how much fat you've got in the budget, but 00:07:56.618 --> 00:08:00.728 let's say you're a reasonable, reasonably smart business owner. 00:08:00.808 --> 00:08:04.718 You probably already optimized your budget really well. 00:08:04.718 --> 00:08:07.328 Or at least to a certain point that you're happy with it. 00:08:09.958 --> 00:08:10.348 Peter Kourounis: Yeah. 00:08:10.438 --> 00:08:13.378 I mean, when you're, if you're a new. 00:08:14.303 --> 00:08:14.903 Person. 00:08:14.993 --> 00:08:15.383 I'm sorry. 00:08:15.383 --> 00:08:18.623 If you're a new business owner, new person, if you're a person that's 00:08:18.623 --> 00:08:23.803 looking to get into this business, you've probably been educated to like doing 00:08:23.853 --> 00:08:26.273 a forecasted projection, a proforma. 00:08:26.303 --> 00:08:29.423 If you will, something that's really going to give you some substance 00:08:29.423 --> 00:08:31.103 to what you're about to enter into. 00:08:31.103 --> 00:08:32.183 So you have to factor in. 00:08:32.993 --> 00:08:37.973 Labor, overhead marketing budgets, you know, and get all those pieces 00:08:37.973 --> 00:08:42.833 together so that you know, that this is what you have to do and what are 00:08:42.833 --> 00:08:45.683 you going to, and this is how much you need to invest to get to that level. 00:08:46.223 --> 00:08:49.883 Now I realized the topic of this question is your pricing. 00:08:50.093 --> 00:08:53.213 How do I know if it's too cheap or too expensive, but it really does. 00:08:53.273 --> 00:08:56.303 It's a very big topic that impacts a lot of things. 00:08:56.603 --> 00:09:00.113 A lot of decisions that have signed shop or a print shop owner needs to come. 00:09:01.388 --> 00:09:02.918 Unwrap right. 00:09:02.918 --> 00:09:07.088 If they're not looking at their financial statements, well, there's problem. 00:09:07.088 --> 00:09:09.878 Number one, numero UNO at the top of the hell. 00:09:09.878 --> 00:09:11.138 And that's your biggest concern. 00:09:11.468 --> 00:09:15.578 Let's use those financial statements to make decisions on 00:09:16.298 --> 00:09:17.648 the day to day of our business. 00:09:17.648 --> 00:09:17.948 Right? 00:09:18.118 --> 00:09:21.758 And, and that, that to me is something that I preach. 00:09:21.788 --> 00:09:25.658 I coach I consult with that is the number one thing that a business 00:09:25.658 --> 00:09:28.658 owner needs to be focused on in my mind is their profit and loss. 00:09:28.898 --> 00:09:29.978 Being able to dictate. 00:09:31.118 --> 00:09:36.848 Day-to-day decisions that they go, that go on in the shop, like raising your prices. 00:09:37.388 --> 00:09:38.048 Bryant Gillespie: What's the. 00:09:38.873 --> 00:09:39.503 Mr. 00:09:39.533 --> 00:09:43.703 Coach expert consultant, like what is the, what's the number 00:09:43.703 --> 00:09:45.413 one thing on the profit and loss. 00:09:46.733 --> 00:09:50.123 Like you pick up my profit and loss for my shop today. 00:09:50.213 --> 00:09:54.113 My theoretical shop, as we've established, like, what's the first thing you're 00:09:54.113 --> 00:09:58.373 going to look at or what's what do you put your finger on and say like, 00:09:58.373 --> 00:10:00.713 Hey, this is your pricing's off. 00:10:00.743 --> 00:10:03.833 Or like, Hey, you need to, like, the sales are too low. 00:10:03.863 --> 00:10:06.113 Like, what are you, what do you put your finger on first? 00:10:08.403 --> 00:10:09.483 Peter Kourounis: Yeah, that's a great question. 00:10:09.513 --> 00:10:11.277 Everything's stems from sales, right? 00:10:11.277 --> 00:10:14.547 So what did you, what were you able to do with all first look at your sales 00:10:14.547 --> 00:10:16.077 for that, for that period of time? 00:10:16.197 --> 00:10:21.597 If it's no matter what the number is, the correlated major categories 00:10:21.597 --> 00:10:27.267 of your profit and loss need to have the proper percentages in order to. 00:10:28.322 --> 00:10:29.972 Justify those cells. 00:10:30.062 --> 00:10:32.732 So in other words, if you did a hundred thousand dollars, I'm looking 00:10:32.732 --> 00:10:38.102 for something, your costs of goods to be anywhere from 22 to 30%. 00:10:39.017 --> 00:10:40.067 Of that number. 00:10:40.427 --> 00:10:43.037 If it's higher, we that's, that's going to be a red flag. 00:10:43.457 --> 00:10:46.577 You know, you're spending too much on material for the 00:10:46.577 --> 00:10:48.107 prices that you're selling. 00:10:48.347 --> 00:10:53.627 You know, you're not charging enough for the raw goods that you're buying, 00:10:53.897 --> 00:10:59.267 you know, so if you're, if I'm seeing a number that's 40 or $50,000 in cost of 00:10:59.267 --> 00:11:03.227 goods, and I'm seeing percentages that are 40 or 50%, that's going to stand out 00:11:03.227 --> 00:11:06.137 right away before we even go to the next. 00:11:07.022 --> 00:11:08.522 Portion of your profit and loss. 00:11:09.002 --> 00:11:14.372 You know, we'll look at labor is labor making up 25 to 30% or in these 00:11:14.372 --> 00:11:20.222 days it probably could be higher than 30%, but is it making up the proper 00:11:20.222 --> 00:11:22.022 percentage of what you're producing? 00:11:22.352 --> 00:11:25.833 If not, well, now you have a you have a labor issue, you know, you have. 00:11:26.643 --> 00:11:28.263 Maybe you're paying your employees too much. 00:11:28.563 --> 00:11:33.843 Maybe your, not, maybe you need to cut back on hours, but again, just like I 00:11:33.843 --> 00:11:37.443 said earlier, I've mentioned the word, just cut this out, just there, you know, 00:11:38.463 --> 00:11:40.083 it all goes back to the number one thing. 00:11:40.083 --> 00:11:41.253 What did you do in sales? 00:11:41.283 --> 00:11:42.123 What did you do? 00:11:42.573 --> 00:11:45.813 And I tend to live on that, that top part of the equation. 00:11:45.813 --> 00:11:47.073 You know, what is. 00:11:49.833 --> 00:11:52.023 The answer to really fix your problem is more sales. 00:11:52.083 --> 00:11:52.653 How do you get 00:11:52.653 --> 00:11:52.953 Bryant Gillespie: that? 00:11:53.433 --> 00:11:57.483 Yeah, I can't imagine going to an employee and just like, Hey Mike, 00:11:59.493 --> 00:12:02.283 we're going to cut your salary because we didn't do enough in sales. 00:12:05.373 --> 00:12:05.823 How's that going to 00:12:05.823 --> 00:12:06.273 Peter Kourounis: go over? 00:12:07.853 --> 00:12:11.103 Usually that usually what happens is that that, that conversation 00:12:11.103 --> 00:12:12.543 really doesn't happen in the world. 00:12:12.543 --> 00:12:14.364 But what does happen is the owners. 00:12:14.364 --> 00:12:19.534 Mike's not performing the way I need, so I need to kind of dip into my pocket 00:12:20.224 --> 00:12:22.024 to invest into that business again. 00:12:22.024 --> 00:12:27.364 So now it's costing me more money until I get busy again. 00:12:27.874 --> 00:12:30.424 And then I put that in quotes because that's what a lot of people do. 00:12:30.424 --> 00:12:33.454 Like get busy means we're making sales. 00:12:34.654 --> 00:12:37.804 It doesn't always mean that you're profiting on your sales 00:12:37.804 --> 00:12:39.064 when you're busy, by the way. 00:12:39.424 --> 00:12:41.614 Like, I like people that say that they're busy, but good. 00:12:41.614 --> 00:12:43.144 Busy is better than bad. 00:12:43.144 --> 00:12:43.504 Busy. 00:12:44.624 --> 00:12:44.954 Yeah. 00:12:45.014 --> 00:12:45.294 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:12:46.084 --> 00:12:47.704 That brings to mind a story. 00:12:47.704 --> 00:12:50.840 Like one of the first consulting clients that I ever took on years ago. 00:12:50.875 --> 00:12:57.797 Really nice guy had a small sign and print shop, kind of a, a remote area. 00:12:57.797 --> 00:13:03.917 It wasn't in a large market, one of the quotes, and we did like a discovery, 00:13:04.337 --> 00:13:06.167 you know, talk to a bunch of his people. 00:13:06.197 --> 00:13:10.997 They were doing probably, I want to say it was like 450 $500,000 00:13:10.997 --> 00:13:12.227 a year in sales, which is. 00:13:13.437 --> 00:13:16.377 It's a common starting point for a lot of people that may be listening 00:13:16.377 --> 00:13:21.747 to this, or just in the industry as a whole, for a really small shop. 00:13:22.257 --> 00:13:24.252 He had like three or four people working for him. 00:13:24.286 --> 00:13:28.836 I still remember like this quote that I pulled out from our conversation and 00:13:28.866 --> 00:13:34.306 put into this report, I wrote for him, he said it plain as day on the call. 00:13:34.306 --> 00:13:35.746 He said, I feel like. 00:13:36.711 --> 00:13:38.661 All I own is a job. 00:13:38.811 --> 00:13:41.751 Like I'm working for my employees. 00:13:42.051 --> 00:13:47.061 Like they make more money than I do per hour, just because we're 00:13:47.061 --> 00:13:51.021 so busy and I'm spending 60 hours a week working in the shop. 00:13:51.021 --> 00:13:53.421 And if you, you know, and he did the math. 00:13:54.231 --> 00:13:59.181 Like it, his salary plus the profits that he was taking home as, as the owner 00:14:00.261 --> 00:14:06.471 on a per hour basis, we're like $5 less than what he was paying his highest paid 00:14:06.471 --> 00:14:12.711 employee per hour, which I'm not sure how you'd feel about something like that. 00:14:12.711 --> 00:14:15.891 But as a business owner, like if you're not making a profit, like 00:14:15.891 --> 00:14:17.541 why are, why are you even doing it? 00:14:18.966 --> 00:14:19.176 Yeah. 00:14:19.376 --> 00:14:23.796 If I can't create the lifestyle that I want for my family out of 00:14:23.796 --> 00:14:28.296 it, you know, why, why, why punish yourself for 60 hours a week? 00:14:32.136 --> 00:14:36.906 Peter Kourounis: I would not know what to say to that sign, stop owner of yours, 00:14:36.936 --> 00:14:41.886 but what I probably tip toe around the, the obvious statement is that he bought 00:14:41.886 --> 00:14:45.156 himself a job instead of a career. 00:14:45.666 --> 00:14:46.026 Right. 00:14:46.866 --> 00:14:47.526 And. 00:14:48.831 --> 00:14:52.251 You know, I, I, I, I think that this industry, whether you're 00:14:52.251 --> 00:14:54.471 in a printing industry, whether you're in the sign is your street. 00:14:55.281 --> 00:14:56.421 It's got a lot to offer. 00:14:56.511 --> 00:14:58.761 I mean, we've all been there. 00:14:58.881 --> 00:15:00.711 We've all operated in shops. 00:15:00.711 --> 00:15:04.521 You know, what it offers us is a sense of being human. 00:15:04.671 --> 00:15:09.291 We, we literally are individuals that are designed to help other 00:15:09.291 --> 00:15:10.671 businesses in our community. 00:15:12.021 --> 00:15:15.778 That's what we, that's what we get into this business for, you know, it's it 00:15:15.778 --> 00:15:18.358 offers nine to five business hours. 00:15:18.358 --> 00:15:20.998 Monday through Friday, you get weekends and holidays off. 00:15:20.998 --> 00:15:23.188 It's a really great industry. 00:15:23.458 --> 00:15:24.808 I mean, I can, I love it. 00:15:24.958 --> 00:15:28.798 I I've made my entire career in this industry because of these 00:15:29.128 --> 00:15:32.668 because of what it's allowed me to do as a, as an industry. 00:15:33.398 --> 00:15:38.618 Spent it allowed me to have the time to meet my wife and to develop my 00:15:38.618 --> 00:15:43.148 family and be moved closer to my family and have those relationships 00:15:43.148 --> 00:15:47.408 with friends and family that are crucial to our everyday normal life. 00:15:47.438 --> 00:15:47.768 Right. 00:15:48.518 --> 00:15:54.788 But if you're that type of owner, that's putting in 40, 50, 60 hours a 00:15:54.788 --> 00:16:00.368 week and you're 30, 40 hour employees making more than you because. 00:16:01.228 --> 00:16:07.318 Your you can't afford to hire more help or what not, it's, it's a matter 00:16:07.318 --> 00:16:10.168 of stepping away from your business. 00:16:10.168 --> 00:16:12.928 That would be my first key advice is you have to step away. 00:16:13.348 --> 00:16:16.708 You have to step away to get fresh eyes on what you need to do. 00:16:16.708 --> 00:16:20.698 Whether that's a week, two weeks, I don't know if you could shut down for a month, 00:16:20.938 --> 00:16:25.198 but what you're doing is not working, what that person is doing is not working. 00:16:26.008 --> 00:16:26.308 Mike. 00:16:29.563 --> 00:16:29.903 Michael Riley: Yeah. 00:16:29.903 --> 00:16:31.033 Yeah, no, I, I agree. 00:16:31.033 --> 00:16:35.983 I mean, I think everybody is, at some point in their trajectory in this 00:16:35.983 --> 00:16:37.513 industry will fall into that trap. 00:16:37.543 --> 00:16:38.143 I know I did. 00:16:38.143 --> 00:16:43.213 When I first started out and had my shop, you know, you, you, you're 00:16:43.213 --> 00:16:45.463 afraid to lose jobs, so you price them. 00:16:46.333 --> 00:16:47.713 So that you get the work, right? 00:16:47.923 --> 00:16:51.013 I mean, I think, I think especially new people in this industry, they priced to 00:16:51.013 --> 00:16:54.263 get the work is they're afraid of that customer turning around and walking out 00:16:54.263 --> 00:16:55.423 and spending that money somewhere else. 00:16:56.023 --> 00:16:57.733 There's a psychological barrier. 00:16:57.733 --> 00:16:58.813 There, there's some 00:16:58.813 --> 00:17:00.133 Bryant Gillespie: little thing in your head. 00:17:00.133 --> 00:17:05.293 That's like this person is in front of me and they're wanting this particular job. 00:17:05.293 --> 00:17:05.893 And you just like. 00:17:07.423 --> 00:17:08.203 Eh, okay. 00:17:08.203 --> 00:17:09.043 500 bucks. 00:17:09.073 --> 00:17:09.853 Yeah, that sounds good. 00:17:09.853 --> 00:17:10.783 Yeah, let's go with that. 00:17:11.533 --> 00:17:12.133 We're like, this is 00:17:12.733 --> 00:17:14.533 Michael Riley: my portfolio, right? 00:17:14.593 --> 00:17:17.503 This a little great on my website when I'm going to lose my ass on this job, 00:17:18.043 --> 00:17:20.653 just for the bragging rights to say I did the job, like I've done that. 00:17:21.403 --> 00:17:22.933 Everybody does that in this industry. 00:17:23.813 --> 00:17:26.953 It's a, it's a dangerous trap to fall into, you know, cause once you start 00:17:26.953 --> 00:17:29.533 doing that, it's really hard to break that habit and get back out of it. 00:17:30.013 --> 00:17:32.713 And I I've seen people that have been in this industry for 2030 years. 00:17:33.643 --> 00:17:35.263 They can't figure out why they're not profitable. 00:17:35.263 --> 00:17:36.583 It's because they're still doing that because they're 00:17:36.583 --> 00:17:37.753 afraid of losing the customer. 00:17:37.753 --> 00:17:38.683 They're afraid of losing the job. 00:17:38.713 --> 00:17:41.713 So they price it low, or they're looking at what their competitor, 00:17:41.713 --> 00:17:45.193 you know, Jimbo's lawn care and yard signs down the street. 00:17:45.193 --> 00:17:46.303 We'll do the sign for half. 00:17:46.303 --> 00:17:52.753 What I can do it for, you know, every, every town has one and he's working 00:17:52.753 --> 00:17:56.263 out of his spare bedroom with a cricket and he gets crappy work, but 00:17:56.263 --> 00:17:59.143 he'll undercut everybody in town cause he doesn't have an actual business. 00:17:59.143 --> 00:17:59.353 Right. 00:18:00.958 --> 00:18:03.328 So many people fall into the trap of trying to compete with those guys. 00:18:03.868 --> 00:18:06.328 And that's just, you know, that's super dangerous. 00:18:06.328 --> 00:18:10.198 I, I see a lot of people making the mistake of comparing their pricing 00:18:10.198 --> 00:18:13.498 to their competitors, trying to base that on what, what they charge anyway, 00:18:14.008 --> 00:18:17.278 which is dumb because your competitors don't have the same overhead as you. 00:18:17.548 --> 00:18:21.088 They don't have the same brands and employees and payroll 00:18:21.088 --> 00:18:22.798 and burn rate that you do. 00:18:22.798 --> 00:18:24.538 So why are you trying to price according to. 00:18:25.393 --> 00:18:27.853 Their business model, which is entirely different than yours. 00:18:27.897 --> 00:18:30.567 And then that's how you fall in the trap, or it's a one big way of falling into 00:18:30.567 --> 00:18:35.157 that trap of having a very expensive job that you have to go through every 00:18:35.157 --> 00:18:36.687 day that pays you less than you make it. 00:18:36.687 --> 00:18:37.137 Talk about it. 00:18:37.137 --> 00:18:37.637 I don't usually. 00:18:37.713 --> 00:18:38.943 Breaking that cycle. 00:18:41.253 --> 00:18:41.973 Bryant Gillespie: That wouldn't be bad. 00:18:41.973 --> 00:18:42.333 I do. 00:18:42.333 --> 00:18:42.513 I mean, 00:18:42.513 --> 00:18:47.103 Michael Riley: I'm not saying that there are times I'd rather work at taco 00:18:47.103 --> 00:18:47.373 Bryant Gillespie: bell. 00:18:47.433 --> 00:18:49.563 What's your go-to at the taco bell. 00:18:49.893 --> 00:18:51.333 What are you, what do you mean at the taco bell? 00:18:52.198 --> 00:18:52.678 Michael Riley: Oh, man. 00:18:52.678 --> 00:18:55.318 I mean, it depends on what, what what's in season. 00:18:55.318 --> 00:18:57.838 Like if you've never had their nacho fries, let me tell you. 00:18:57.868 --> 00:18:59.758 They don't have them all the time, but if they've got the nacho 00:18:59.758 --> 00:19:00.838 fries, you gotta get on that. 00:19:00.868 --> 00:19:01.738 They're they're amazing. 00:19:02.488 --> 00:19:05.068 Otherwise just give me a plain old bean burrito, buddy. 00:19:05.518 --> 00:19:06.958 That's my go-to. 00:19:07.828 --> 00:19:09.838 Peter Kourounis: I used to be a fan of their Mexi melts 00:19:09.868 --> 00:19:10.918 before they got rid of them. 00:19:10.918 --> 00:19:13.318 Like I was like, why did you get rid of your myth and your mix? 00:19:14.068 --> 00:19:14.698 If you're new, 00:19:15.748 --> 00:19:16.918 Michael Riley: you remember. 00:19:18.258 --> 00:19:20.688 That's oh God, those were so good. 00:19:20.868 --> 00:19:22.908 They gave me a little plastic container with the bubble 00:19:22.908 --> 00:19:23.958 and like the red sauce on it. 00:19:24.018 --> 00:19:26.358 I mean, those were mind-blowingly good. 00:19:26.358 --> 00:19:26.918 And they got rid of 00:19:27.678 --> 00:19:29.868 Peter Kourounis: when, when, when you're, when it's late night and you're working 00:19:29.868 --> 00:19:32.268 in the shop, there was nothing better. 00:19:34.248 --> 00:19:36.258 I, when it comes. 00:19:38.553 --> 00:19:39.633 I'm just going to straight. 00:19:39.813 --> 00:19:43.953 I'm a straight, like three tacos, maybe, maybe a chicken and cheese case idea. 00:19:44.373 --> 00:19:50.013 My wife likes the cheesy gordita crunch, but when you're like every, 00:19:50.793 --> 00:19:54.693 when you have your staff and they're all like, kind of working to beat that 00:19:54.693 --> 00:19:57.783 deadline, there's nothing like a, oh, you're like one of those big boxes 00:19:57.783 --> 00:19:59.403 of tacos to get everybody motive. 00:19:59.853 --> 00:20:01.773 Michael Riley: So it was, yeah, it's the best man. 00:20:02.483 --> 00:20:03.453 And I don't eat meat. 00:20:03.483 --> 00:20:04.743 I'm the taco bell. 00:20:05.793 --> 00:20:08.813 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, we can get them to sponsor the next episode. 00:20:08.823 --> 00:20:14.013 Like what did they find some tacos for taco bell break. 00:20:15.063 --> 00:20:17.883 Peter Kourounis: That's a great title signs and tacos and profit and loss. 00:20:19.743 --> 00:20:21.753 Michael Riley: We should all be eating tacos while we talk here. 00:20:23.358 --> 00:20:24.018 So we have a set. 00:20:24.908 --> 00:20:25.428 Oh, go ahead. 00:20:26.568 --> 00:20:28.338 Oh, I was just going to say like that. 00:20:28.338 --> 00:20:32.028 I think that's, I've seen that trap that so many people 00:20:32.058 --> 00:20:33.668 volunteer I've been guilty of it. 00:20:33.728 --> 00:20:37.188 I'm I'm sure everybody on this call, I've been guilty of it before in the past. 00:20:37.188 --> 00:20:41.718 And I think that's one of the psychological barrier of being 00:20:41.718 --> 00:20:44.148 afraid, price something the way it needs to be priced. 00:20:44.723 --> 00:20:48.863 So that it's profitable for you is really a hard thing for people to overcome. 00:20:48.923 --> 00:20:50.483 It's a terrifying thing to overcome. 00:20:50.483 --> 00:20:54.163 It's scary to hand a quote to a customer that you know is high, right? 00:20:54.173 --> 00:20:56.573 Like if you, if you've got a customer getting three or four bids and you know, 00:20:56.573 --> 00:20:59.603 your price is going to be on the high side of that, therefore you're running 00:20:59.603 --> 00:21:04.073 the risk of losing that job, like partying in that customer, that bid with any 00:21:04.073 --> 00:21:06.053 confidence that, you know, but at the same time, I'm like you have to have 00:21:06.053 --> 00:21:07.343 competence in your price that you're. 00:21:08.208 --> 00:21:10.158 You're not pricing to get the job. 00:21:10.158 --> 00:21:10.848 You're not pricing. 00:21:10.968 --> 00:21:14.538 You can put a three, you're paying to put food on your own table and 00:21:14.538 --> 00:21:17.208 make sure that your employees get a paycheck next week, first and foremost. 00:21:17.208 --> 00:21:20.334 And that's, I think what a lot of people fail to take into 00:21:20.334 --> 00:21:21.744 consideration the equation. 00:21:21.864 --> 00:21:26.874 And then, you know, talking about your P and L on what red flags jump out at you. 00:21:27.154 --> 00:21:29.934 I mean, there's an old metric to that, you know? 00:21:30.774 --> 00:21:32.004 I can't remember the exact number. 00:21:32.004 --> 00:21:35.154 You should be only, you know, getting, you know, roughly 00:21:35.154 --> 00:21:36.324 half the coach put out there. 00:21:36.324 --> 00:21:38.424 If you're getting, if you're getting too many quotes, if your prices 00:21:38.424 --> 00:21:40.764 are too low, if you're getting, you know, if you're wanting to do too 00:21:40.764 --> 00:21:42.264 few bids and prices are too high. 00:21:42.264 --> 00:21:45.084 So that was one that I always used to use as well. 00:21:45.084 --> 00:21:46.974 It was like if I'm winning every bid, I'm putting out there. 00:21:46.974 --> 00:21:49.034 Every quote that I send out comes back as a paying job. 00:21:49.944 --> 00:21:52.224 Like I shit, that's a big problem. 00:21:52.344 --> 00:21:53.214 You don't want that. 00:21:53.214 --> 00:21:56.634 Cause every one of those jobs is under priced and then your, your margins are 00:21:56.634 --> 00:21:59.244 thin and you're working for you stole 00:21:59.244 --> 00:21:59.994 Bryant Gillespie: the thunder dude. 00:21:59.994 --> 00:22:03.474 I was getting ready to come in and say like Peter, what's the number 00:22:03.474 --> 00:22:07.974 one thing that they, the people listening, their pricing too low. 00:22:08.214 --> 00:22:12.324 Tell them how right now look at the conversion ratio. 00:22:12.384 --> 00:22:13.944 How many quotes do you send? 00:22:14.334 --> 00:22:15.294 You send 10 quotes. 00:22:15.294 --> 00:22:16.854 You get nine of those quotes. 00:22:18.054 --> 00:22:19.674 You're way too freaking low. 00:22:20.634 --> 00:22:21.384 Peter Kourounis: That's interesting. 00:22:21.474 --> 00:22:22.254 That's an interesting, yeah. 00:22:22.254 --> 00:22:24.984 I'd like to, I never quite thought of it that way. 00:22:24.984 --> 00:22:26.424 To be honest with you, I've been doing this awhile. 00:22:26.424 --> 00:22:28.074 That is something I've never quite thought of. 00:22:28.074 --> 00:22:29.964 I would just think that if I'm winning all these coats, they 00:22:29.964 --> 00:22:31.584 like who I am as an individual. 00:22:31.584 --> 00:22:32.814 They like me as an owner. 00:22:33.114 --> 00:22:34.044 They like me. 00:22:36.174 --> 00:22:39.174 So everything closed because they want to work me. 00:22:40.989 --> 00:22:43.899 But I guess also be thinking, Hey, my price might be 00:22:44.169 --> 00:22:44.559 Michael Riley: too low. 00:22:45.179 --> 00:22:47.949 That sounds really funny to say it out loud, but it's true. 00:22:47.999 --> 00:22:53.859 I I've so many shop owners that are, we get every bid that comes through the door. 00:22:53.859 --> 00:22:54.639 Like, it's great. 00:22:55.179 --> 00:22:56.709 We're not profitable, but it's great. 00:22:56.709 --> 00:22:57.789 I'm like, why are you getting those bids? 00:22:57.789 --> 00:22:59.939 Like, they, they, they fucking love us, man. 00:22:59.969 --> 00:23:03.369 I'm like, I don't, they don't, they don't give a shit about you. 00:23:04.419 --> 00:23:05.619 They're saving money with you. 00:23:05.709 --> 00:23:08.139 That's all they care about that. 00:23:09.324 --> 00:23:09.564 Yeah. 00:23:09.704 --> 00:23:12.864 I, I, it, that plays into the ego too. 00:23:12.864 --> 00:23:15.714 And he'd go, I mean, this is, this, isn't a sign industry-specific thing, 00:23:15.714 --> 00:23:21.804 but ego is a big thing that drives a lot of business owners in it's easy 00:23:21.804 --> 00:23:24.744 to conflate is people love me for. 00:23:26.054 --> 00:23:28.664 I'm just whoring myself out and they love that. 00:23:29.204 --> 00:23:31.844 And there's a big difference between the two and it can be really difficult 00:23:31.844 --> 00:23:34.844 for a business owner to recognize which is which, which one of those, 00:23:35.084 --> 00:23:36.494 you know, that they're actually in. 00:23:36.524 --> 00:23:36.821 No 00:23:36.841 --> 00:23:40.341 Peter Kourounis: that's really interesting unit the religion, cause I 00:23:40.341 --> 00:23:42.771 would never know how to figure that out. 00:23:42.891 --> 00:23:43.131 Right. 00:23:43.131 --> 00:23:46.311 I would say to be in that court, in that rock between a rock and a 00:23:46.311 --> 00:23:50.451 hard place, if it's me or if it's my pricing that they like me or there's 00:23:50.451 --> 00:23:51.651 my pricing too cheap, like that. 00:23:52.931 --> 00:23:56.801 That's gotta be a big question for, for many sign shop owners 00:23:56.801 --> 00:24:00.071 out there that are wrong 00:24:00.071 --> 00:24:01.091 Michael Riley: with how to find the answer. 00:24:01.451 --> 00:24:02.081 It totally. 00:24:02.081 --> 00:24:04.601 And there's nothing wrong with liking your customer, your customers like you. 00:24:04.601 --> 00:24:06.761 Like I had a lot of customers still do. 00:24:07.211 --> 00:24:08.941 I sold my business nine years ago. 00:24:08.971 --> 00:24:12.251 I'm still Facebook friends with two, three dozen my customers and still 00:24:12.251 --> 00:24:13.541 talk to them on a regular basis. 00:24:13.541 --> 00:24:14.501 You know, I consider them. 00:24:15.956 --> 00:24:17.036 I consider them friends. 00:24:17.656 --> 00:24:18.836 I'll call them places or peers. 00:24:20.186 --> 00:24:21.416 You know, that relationship. 00:24:21.446 --> 00:24:23.006 I mean, it's a very fine line. 00:24:23.006 --> 00:24:27.583 That relationship you walk in business with, with, with with the client or these 00:24:27.583 --> 00:24:30.913 really truly my friend, are we doing, why am I, these people really like me? 00:24:30.913 --> 00:24:33.763 And you know, the flip side of that, do I really like them? 00:24:33.763 --> 00:24:35.023 Or do I like their money? 00:24:35.623 --> 00:24:35.953 You know? 00:24:35.953 --> 00:24:40.303 So it's, it's, it's a dangerous, slippery slope to let that muddy. 00:24:41.143 --> 00:24:42.343 The pricing equation. 00:24:42.343 --> 00:24:45.523 And a lot of people do a lot of people let that factor into how much 00:24:45.523 --> 00:24:48.393 you're charging and that's really dangerous because then you're, 00:24:48.393 --> 00:24:53.533 you're, you know, frankly interjecting personal feelings into something 00:24:53.533 --> 00:24:55.183 that's very black and white mass. 00:24:56.773 --> 00:24:58.753 That'll screw you in the long run for sure. 00:25:01.118 --> 00:25:01.478 Peter Kourounis: Yeah. 00:25:01.508 --> 00:25:07.298 You know, while you guys talk, you know, something must came to mind and 00:25:07.538 --> 00:25:09.068 I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. 00:25:09.068 --> 00:25:12.578 And, and I might throw a monkey wrench into what we were talking about here. 00:25:12.578 --> 00:25:17.018 Just a moment, but you know, one of the bigger hurdles for me, even throughout my 00:25:17.018 --> 00:25:21.486 entire career is timing with a customer when a customer, if a customer comes in 00:25:22.296 --> 00:25:25.816 and you guys mentioned like, you know, Looking at your competitors' pricing 00:25:25.816 --> 00:25:30.286 and, and, you know, trying to stay better than what they're offering you. 00:25:30.316 --> 00:25:34.966 I don't have time to call my customers or call my competitors and say, what are 00:25:34.966 --> 00:25:37.006 you charging for this so that I can be. 00:25:37.871 --> 00:25:38.741 In the ballpark. 00:25:38.951 --> 00:25:39.631 I don't have time for that. 00:25:39.631 --> 00:25:40.691 I don't think I've ever done that. 00:25:40.931 --> 00:25:44.921 You know, I do it in a different way, but if a customer comes in and they're 00:25:45.011 --> 00:25:49.211 ready to buy, you know, you know, those moments where you get somebody 00:25:49.211 --> 00:25:53.741 to walks in or calls you or, and is really like, I need to move forward. 00:25:53.771 --> 00:25:56.051 I need to do this to tell you all the right things. 00:25:57.311 --> 00:25:58.211 I need to get a price. 00:25:58.211 --> 00:25:59.561 Can you get me a quote today? 00:25:59.591 --> 00:26:01.001 I need to have this by the weekend. 00:26:01.001 --> 00:26:04.961 You know, you got them by the, by the, on the ropes right there at that 00:26:04.961 --> 00:26:10.499 point, you know, th that the rattle timing, I got them on the ropes. 00:26:17.249 --> 00:26:18.479 got them on the ropes. 00:26:18.809 --> 00:26:19.889 They're ready to buy. 00:26:21.884 --> 00:26:25.604 You know, they start asking buying questions and that's usually a telling 00:26:25.604 --> 00:26:29.084 sign of like, okay, this guy needs to get an estimate out right now. 00:26:29.084 --> 00:26:35.714 And I need to find the urgency to get them a price and because they're ready to buy. 00:26:36.554 --> 00:26:41.504 And I, and I think that that plays a part into the logic of 00:26:41.834 --> 00:26:44.654 too cheap or too expensive timing. 00:26:45.104 --> 00:26:48.944 It, you know, it's a very interesting piece because I don't 00:26:48.944 --> 00:26:50.384 have the time to do my research. 00:26:51.224 --> 00:26:58.214 I don't have the time to evaluate competitors call vendors because 00:26:58.214 --> 00:27:01.334 persons urgent immediate right now that they need to move. 00:27:02.909 --> 00:27:08.849 A lot of times, my self even would rely on prior experiences 00:27:08.849 --> 00:27:10.589 to give this customer a price. 00:27:11.009 --> 00:27:15.779 Even though the is not being followed, I'm not calling any vendors. 00:27:15.809 --> 00:27:20.249 I'm re I'm going back to old habits myself, because this customer is telling 00:27:20.249 --> 00:27:21.719 me that they want to move forward. 00:27:21.749 --> 00:27:24.779 They need, they need that sign up by the weekend. 00:27:24.929 --> 00:27:25.869 They need it in a week. 00:27:25.876 --> 00:27:27.136 I need to get a price from you. 00:27:28.426 --> 00:27:30.856 So that, that typically totally do 00:27:30.856 --> 00:27:31.726 Bryant Gillespie: that in the past. 00:27:32.686 --> 00:27:37.126 Like, especially if like somebody came in the shop, they're standing right in 00:27:37.126 --> 00:27:41.476 front of me and they say right in front of you, like, Hey, this is what we want. 00:27:42.856 --> 00:27:46.096 Like the pressure there to close that sale then. 00:27:46.096 --> 00:27:47.056 And there is huge. 00:27:47.116 --> 00:27:47.446 Yeah. 00:27:48.471 --> 00:27:52.191 Peter Kourounis: Are you really, really willing to let that guy walk out the door? 00:27:52.341 --> 00:27:55.251 Are you really willing to let them walk out the door so that you can do your 00:27:55.251 --> 00:27:57.831 research and get them a more accurate? 00:27:57.871 --> 00:28:02.091 That's a, that's a ballsy moment and I never let that pur I tried my 00:28:02.091 --> 00:28:03.951 hardest to never let that person leave. 00:28:03.981 --> 00:28:05.301 I mean, that's like sales 1 0 1. 00:28:05.601 --> 00:28:07.491 They, they want to buy this at the time. 00:28:08.696 --> 00:28:14.456 Bryant Gillespie: Let's pause for a moment because it, like, I used to 00:28:14.456 --> 00:28:18.746 do that same, like shortcut of like, ah, like, okay, like, Hey, this guy 00:28:18.746 --> 00:28:20.366 wants some lettering on his truck. 00:28:20.396 --> 00:28:25.226 Like it's going to be, you know, let's say like six feet by about two feet. 00:28:25.226 --> 00:28:28.616 By the time we get done with his logo, like we just did one, three 00:28:28.616 --> 00:28:30.866 weeks ago for X, like, okay. 00:28:31.666 --> 00:28:33.256 It's X here's the price. 00:28:33.286 --> 00:28:33.586 Yeah. 00:28:33.616 --> 00:28:39.406 And it's like, I think it's just like, in that moment, you don't 00:28:39.406 --> 00:28:41.956 want that sale to go to waste. 00:28:42.016 --> 00:28:45.106 So to say, or like, you, you want to close that right then and there, 00:28:45.106 --> 00:28:48.316 but you, I dunno, you got to give yourself some kind of space there 00:28:48.316 --> 00:28:51.736 to like get out of, I don't. 00:28:51.796 --> 00:28:52.006 Yeah. 00:28:52.006 --> 00:28:52.456 I don't know. 00:28:55.741 --> 00:28:57.061 Peter Kourounis: You might get an emotional 00:28:57.091 --> 00:28:59.071 Bryant Gillespie: reaction for me sometimes, you know, it's, 00:28:59.071 --> 00:29:02.701 it's almost like the customer. 00:29:02.761 --> 00:29:04.621 Have you ever had a customer do this to you, Peter? 00:29:04.681 --> 00:29:08.251 Like you're saving there in that same situation and they give 00:29:08.251 --> 00:29:09.901 you, you give them the price. 00:29:10.441 --> 00:29:15.209 And they're like I was thinking probably like, $200 less or $300. 00:29:15.209 --> 00:29:17.069 Let's say it's like a thousand dollar job. 00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:22.019 And then they're like, well, like so-and-so quoted me 700 bucks. 00:29:22.409 --> 00:29:24.539 They're like, yeah. 00:29:24.719 --> 00:29:28.469 Like what does that, does that like hit you right in the gut too? 00:29:28.469 --> 00:29:29.399 Or are you like you 00:29:29.399 --> 00:29:29.729 Peter Kourounis: passed that? 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.149 No, no, no. 00:29:31.199 --> 00:29:35.039 That doesn't actually know that the truth is, is that, that that 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:36.989 is a, that is, that happens a lot. 00:29:37.169 --> 00:29:41.459 And what it typically means is that we're off base. 00:29:43.694 --> 00:29:48.074 1500 bucks and they get, they tell me they got a quote from $700 and it's, 00:29:48.314 --> 00:29:50.054 and they like what I'm presenting. 00:29:51.164 --> 00:29:55.004 Typically this person is either not telling me the truth, 00:29:55.484 --> 00:29:56.654 that there is nobody else. 00:29:56.654 --> 00:30:02.174 That's giving them this price for $700, or I'm just simply not hitting 00:30:02.174 --> 00:30:04.094 the mark where they see that. 00:30:05.834 --> 00:30:08.744 And that's where I would shift the conversation. 00:30:09.014 --> 00:30:11.894 This could probably, I could probably do a whole video segment or two 00:30:11.894 --> 00:30:17.354 on value propositions then whoa, how to produce that kind of value. 00:30:17.354 --> 00:30:20.584 What questions to ask, to allow yourself to put in, to be putting 00:30:20.584 --> 00:30:23.864 into place, to, to assert value. 00:30:24.584 --> 00:30:28.934 But yeah, when I get somebody that comes into me and says your brewery $400 over 00:30:28.934 --> 00:30:31.484 price, it's I say over based off of. 00:30:32.504 --> 00:30:36.554 Nobody else designed the same time as, as I just did. 00:30:37.364 --> 00:30:37.934 You know? 00:30:38.024 --> 00:30:43.124 And, and, and if they all are a few hundred dollars over me or under 00:30:43.124 --> 00:30:45.974 me, you know, I typically will. 00:30:46.164 --> 00:30:51.404 I, I switched, I have, and I say, it's called change the variables and 00:30:51.404 --> 00:30:56.024 changing the variables means how do I, if they, if they just told you 00:30:56.174 --> 00:30:58.064 what, what budget they want to be in. 00:30:58.064 --> 00:30:59.684 So how do you make it fit in that budget? 00:30:59.924 --> 00:31:01.124 I'm just not going to say yeah. 00:31:02.454 --> 00:31:05.814 Because they said, oh, I got a quote for $500 less. 00:31:06.444 --> 00:31:10.854 I'm going to say, okay, well maybe we can, I can get you there. 00:31:11.034 --> 00:31:13.764 If we change the variables of whatever the sign is. 00:31:13.764 --> 00:31:16.074 Maybe if it's not, I don't know. 00:31:16.074 --> 00:31:17.304 Maybe it's a different thickness. 00:31:17.304 --> 00:31:18.594 Maybe it's a different size. 00:31:18.594 --> 00:31:22.764 Maybe it's instead of painting the posts, we're just leaving them white, 00:31:22.794 --> 00:31:24.984 you know, whatever, whatever the case is. 00:31:24.984 --> 00:31:25.194 But. 00:31:26.264 --> 00:31:30.614 Dictate a compensation of getting a value for what they're buying. 00:31:31.844 --> 00:31:32.024 Yeah. 00:31:32.054 --> 00:31:32.384 And that's what 00:31:32.684 --> 00:31:34.664 Michael Riley: totally, totally agree with that too. 00:31:34.664 --> 00:31:39.494 You, I mean, it's, that's a big, it's a rule of thumb that I always use 00:31:39.494 --> 00:31:41.864 at my shop as well as if somebody comes in and they say, Hey, I got a 00:31:41.864 --> 00:31:43.694 price for X down the street and it's. 00:31:44.609 --> 00:31:46.189 $500 cheaper, you know? 00:31:46.189 --> 00:31:48.899 Well, chances are, you're probably not comparing apples 00:31:48.899 --> 00:31:50.549 to apples in that case as well. 00:31:50.549 --> 00:31:53.219 I mean, if you're, you know, if you're talking about a thousand dollars sign 00:31:53.219 --> 00:31:56.219 and somebody is $200 cheaper than that's a 20% price difference, that's, 00:31:56.739 --> 00:31:58.739 that's a, that's a lot, I mean, $200. 00:31:58.739 --> 00:32:01.589 Isn't a lot of money, but a 20% difference is a lot of money, which 00:32:01.589 --> 00:32:04.079 means that there's something that's not the same between those two quotes. 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.629 And I've seen so many people just say, oh, okay. 00:32:06.629 --> 00:32:06.989 Yeah, cool. 00:32:06.989 --> 00:32:08.369 Well, whatever they're doing it for a hundred bucks. 00:32:08.969 --> 00:32:09.539 It's 200 bucks. 00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:11.879 You got whatever I want your business as well. 00:32:11.879 --> 00:32:14.009 Then, you know, that 20% it just took off. 00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:17.789 Was there a higher profit margin of Bob without changing variables of it? 00:32:17.789 --> 00:32:21.569 Like you said, so educating your customer and dissecting that 00:32:21.569 --> 00:32:23.939 other quote and saying, okay, this is what they're quoting. 00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:29.729 Three mil Diaba versus six IJ, 35 versus IJ 180. 00:32:30.209 --> 00:32:32.039 You know, they're giving you a three-year sign. 00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:33.329 I'm quoting you in seven years time. 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:35.279 Hence the price difference. 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.249 Now, if you want me to match that price, I can quote it exactly the way 00:32:38.249 --> 00:32:40.169 they quoted it and I can get you there. 00:32:40.169 --> 00:32:43.169 But I think that's a part of the equation in that a lot of people, 00:32:43.169 --> 00:32:47.759 miss is what are you, what are you quoting against this other customer? 00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.149 You know, if you're just looking at numbers only, I mean, you might as 00:32:51.149 --> 00:32:52.859 well just give them the sign for free. 00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:54.869 You're not even charging for it at that point because you're, you're 00:32:54.869 --> 00:32:55.739 gonna make the sign for free. 00:32:55.739 --> 00:32:58.439 Anyway, if you're not actually dissecting what you're quoting, why 00:32:58.439 --> 00:33:00.539 Peter Kourounis: you're quoting it that way, and you want to know. 00:33:01.529 --> 00:33:03.989 Why are they talking to you if they've already gotten the price? 00:33:04.289 --> 00:33:04.839 Michael Riley: Exactly. 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:04.979 Right. 00:33:05.189 --> 00:33:08.819 I think that's, I think that's the most, that's the biggest underlying issue 00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:12.149 is if that price is so good and that company is going to give them everything 00:33:12.149 --> 00:33:13.469 they want and they love that price. 00:33:13.709 --> 00:33:14.999 Why did they not buy it there? 00:33:15.269 --> 00:33:16.379 Why are they coming to you? 00:33:16.409 --> 00:33:17.129 And you guess what? 00:33:17.129 --> 00:33:19.709 They're also going to go to everybody else in town for the exact same 00:33:19.709 --> 00:33:24.329 conversation, until they can find somebody who was dumb enough to say, yeah, I'll 00:33:24.329 --> 00:33:27.509 match that price without giving them a second thought that customer knows 00:33:27.509 --> 00:33:29.099 what they're doing and walk right into 00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:30.239 Bryant Gillespie: the gut punch. 00:33:31.334 --> 00:33:31.814 Peter Kourounis: Right. 00:33:31.844 --> 00:33:32.684 Yeah, exactly. 00:33:32.684 --> 00:33:33.134 Yeah. 00:33:33.494 --> 00:33:34.064 I'll take it. 00:33:34.064 --> 00:33:35.354 I'll take it right in the chin. 00:33:35.594 --> 00:33:36.254 He gave it to me. 00:33:36.314 --> 00:33:38.054 Give it to me straight now. 00:33:38.084 --> 00:33:38.594 I liked it. 00:33:38.624 --> 00:33:40.094 I'll put that right back on the customer. 00:33:40.094 --> 00:33:40.784 That's a great price. 00:33:40.784 --> 00:33:41.744 Why didn't you go with that? 00:33:43.274 --> 00:33:44.234 And then be quiet. 00:33:44.324 --> 00:33:44.624 Don't 00:33:44.624 --> 00:33:44.864 Michael Riley: say that. 00:33:44.924 --> 00:33:46.124 I can't answer that either. 00:33:46.124 --> 00:33:46.334 Yeah. 00:33:46.334 --> 00:33:48.494 They'll, there'll be they'll they'll him on notable stutter 00:33:48.494 --> 00:33:49.384 for an answer on that one. 00:33:49.394 --> 00:33:50.204 Cause they can't tell you. 00:33:50.204 --> 00:33:53.294 They just know, well, I'm just going to keep working until I can get a 00:33:53.294 --> 00:33:54.854 better, you know, and then it's. 00:33:56.724 --> 00:33:58.374 Peter Kourounis: That's what customs do you want to, but you want, but you 00:33:58.374 --> 00:34:01.704 want to know something that customer did walk in and there, and that's, 00:34:01.814 --> 00:34:05.304 that's more back to my point is that they're willing to buy right now. 00:34:05.634 --> 00:34:10.644 So are you, are you going to just bend over backwards to accommodate their 00:34:10.644 --> 00:34:11.844 request that this is their budget? 00:34:11.844 --> 00:34:14.334 That's just what they want and cut into your profits. 00:34:14.364 --> 00:34:16.464 I I've told you I've, I've done that before. 00:34:16.704 --> 00:34:19.734 I think we're all, like you said, we're all guilty of it, but it's that 00:34:19.794 --> 00:34:23.004 timing piece because you are, you re like with Brian said, are you really. 00:34:23.774 --> 00:34:29.264 Willing to turn down money cashflow that's cashflow of money in the bank 00:34:29.264 --> 00:34:35.504 today to do a project, you might even already have the material to do to 00:34:35.504 --> 00:34:39.644 keep your, to make payroll, to keep your employees working, to keep the 00:34:39.734 --> 00:34:43.364 engine running, to turn that down. 00:34:43.964 --> 00:34:48.464 And most people aren't, you know, I would say if I pulled all of my sign shop 00:34:48.464 --> 00:34:49.964 owners, I've spoken to they'd all stay. 00:34:50.294 --> 00:34:51.554 I'll do whatever I gotta do to make that. 00:34:52.964 --> 00:34:55.694 And that's not always the right, the right choice. 00:34:56.774 --> 00:34:56.894 Michael Riley: Yeah. 00:34:56.934 --> 00:35:01.394 Bryant Gillespie: You want to make that easier for us was appointment only. 00:35:01.604 --> 00:35:02.114 We a. 00:35:03.554 --> 00:35:07.244 We used to have a small shop on main street. 00:35:07.934 --> 00:35:13.544 We had a large format printer, puke, its guts out it. 00:35:13.574 --> 00:35:14.984 This was before the CT. 00:35:15.014 --> 00:35:18.314 Now mine, we didn't. 00:35:18.614 --> 00:35:21.914 So we were convinced we were going to buy the CT. 00:35:21.914 --> 00:35:22.964 We didn't have room for it. 00:35:23.474 --> 00:35:30.104 We built a 6,000 square foot box, just a steel framed metal building. 00:35:31.524 --> 00:35:36.294 Boxed just production facility just had all the toys over there. 00:35:36.894 --> 00:35:41.214 And then like, we were then like appointment only. 00:35:41.214 --> 00:35:47.334 Like if you wanted to come in and talk with me about pricing on a 00:35:47.334 --> 00:35:49.884 rap, like, do we set up a call? 00:35:49.884 --> 00:35:51.414 Like it was all scheduled out. 00:35:51.444 --> 00:35:54.654 So that like any of those, like walk-in jobs, like, Hey. 00:35:54.721 --> 00:36:01.096 Joe, and I just bought this 20 foot boat and I need some bladders for my boat, so 00:36:01.096 --> 00:36:02.986 I could get it on the water this weekend. 00:36:02.986 --> 00:36:07.516 You know, like that stuff, like I no longer had to make those decisions 00:36:07.516 --> 00:36:12.076 because like, they just, they didn't, they didn't come over to the shot. 00:36:12.076 --> 00:36:13.186 The door was always locked. 00:36:13.636 --> 00:36:18.166 Like any customers that were coming over, I knew who it was and was, 00:36:18.266 --> 00:36:20.086 was prepared for that situation. 00:36:20.086 --> 00:36:22.996 So I didn't really put myself in that situation. 00:36:25.161 --> 00:36:26.361 Michael Riley: Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. 00:36:26.361 --> 00:36:26.871 We did that. 00:36:27.411 --> 00:36:30.591 We kind of did that too at our shop and we, we didn't lock the doors and 00:36:30.591 --> 00:36:33.681 tell people to go away if they didn't have an appointment, but we, we had 00:36:33.681 --> 00:36:37.191 a nice show room, but we didn't have office hours and we didn't advertise it. 00:36:37.191 --> 00:36:40.401 And we, you know, if somebody walked in and looking for boat numbers and shit like 00:36:40.401 --> 00:36:41.661 that, we would refer them to fast science. 00:36:41.661 --> 00:36:44.001 Cause we don't, you know, that's, that's what fast. 00:36:45.341 --> 00:36:45.581 Sorry, 00:36:45.581 --> 00:36:46.541 Peter Kourounis: Peter, excuse me. 00:36:48.431 --> 00:36:48.761 Sorry. 00:36:49.841 --> 00:36:52.691 Michael Riley: First of all, local fashion was four. 00:36:53.241 --> 00:36:53.791 Maybe, maybe 00:36:54.901 --> 00:36:57.341 Peter Kourounis: it gets a bad rap man, bad rap. 00:36:57.521 --> 00:36:59.111 Now everybody thinks that we do. 00:37:00.511 --> 00:37:03.481 Michael Riley: And we had a fast line in our market that, that that's all 00:37:03.481 --> 00:37:04.831 they could do was the small stuff. 00:37:04.831 --> 00:37:07.501 And that was like, basically if we get every shop in the area, it was like, no, 00:37:07.501 --> 00:37:08.671 you need to go to fast signs for that. 00:37:08.671 --> 00:37:11.969 Like, we, we get a fast signs and business, honestly, but no, 00:37:11.969 --> 00:37:13.019 I mean, that's a good point. 00:37:13.019 --> 00:37:18.959 I mean, if you're, if you're operating in a way where anybody and everybody can 00:37:18.959 --> 00:37:22.109 walk in up the street in demand and your time and expect your time right now, 00:37:23.129 --> 00:37:27.409 you've almost set yourself up to, you know, in a way where you have to do that. 00:37:28.634 --> 00:37:31.784 You can't not take those orders on, you can not take those jobs on. 00:37:31.784 --> 00:37:35.594 And, and generally speaking in the sign industry, walk in customers aren't 00:37:35.594 --> 00:37:37.364 necessarily the most profitable ever. 00:37:37.604 --> 00:37:40.274 You know, if you're looking, I mean, I guess it depends on what kind of market 00:37:40.274 --> 00:37:44.204 you're in, but if you're trying to sell real signage, nobody will walks in off 00:37:44.204 --> 00:37:46.184 the street to buy a $30,000 monument sign. 00:37:46.184 --> 00:37:46.964 That isn't how it works. 00:37:47.384 --> 00:37:47.714 Right. 00:37:47.894 --> 00:37:51.854 You know, it's rarely anyway, people walking up the street. 00:37:52.979 --> 00:37:54.209 $50 set about numbers. 00:37:54.276 --> 00:37:57.152 And, and, and that creates a whole other level of pressure that 00:37:57.152 --> 00:38:00.962 you just, you got to figure out how to overcome from a pricing 00:38:00.962 --> 00:38:02.492 standpoint, Peter shaking his head. 00:38:03.392 --> 00:38:03.722 Yeah. 00:38:04.652 --> 00:38:06.032 Peter Kourounis: I was just thinking, I was just thinking about 00:38:06.032 --> 00:38:07.262 that best signs in your market. 00:38:07.262 --> 00:38:08.312 I'd love to be them. 00:38:08.552 --> 00:38:10.922 If you're handing me all this business, I'd love it. 00:38:12.092 --> 00:38:12.452 All the. 00:38:12.475 --> 00:38:14.331 Michael Riley: But letters, but lettering and race card. 00:38:14.331 --> 00:38:14.481 Right. 00:38:14.501 --> 00:38:14.931 That makes me 00:38:15.741 --> 00:38:16.401 Peter Kourounis: that's what you want to do 00:38:16.461 --> 00:38:17.901 Bryant Gillespie: just to me, like, yeah. 00:38:17.931 --> 00:38:20.511 Like I was like, do it all got yeah. 00:38:20.541 --> 00:38:25.491 Like, and when like the sign production and like the, the 00:38:25.491 --> 00:38:27.217 office that everybody came in. 00:38:27.218 --> 00:38:28.508 And you know, we were kind of unique. 00:38:28.508 --> 00:38:29.798 We did like ups shipping. 00:38:30.623 --> 00:38:33.340 And, and stuff like that as well for the community which 00:38:33.340 --> 00:38:35.170 is I wouldn't advocate for it. 00:38:35.180 --> 00:38:39.670 I wouldn't recommend like doing any of like that office, like ups store 00:38:39.670 --> 00:38:45.310 type situation, but it's something that we did and yeah, it's just like 00:38:45.520 --> 00:38:48.010 being right around the corner, running. 00:38:49.070 --> 00:38:51.200 Yeah, I large format printer. 00:38:51.200 --> 00:38:56.330 You got $3,000 worth of signage, just, you know, wrap coming off of that printer. 00:38:56.690 --> 00:39:01.040 And then you step around the corner to take your eyes off of it, or whatever else 00:39:01.040 --> 00:39:03.860 is in your queue to sell $50 boat letters. 00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:06.950 So you could have just referred to the fast signs down the street. 00:39:08.120 --> 00:39:13.970 Just wasn't a good use of time, but Peter is willing to take the $50 boat letters. 00:39:15.175 --> 00:39:19.375 That you and I don't want hypothetically, since we don't have all day, 00:39:20.815 --> 00:39:21.385 Peter Kourounis: all day. 00:39:23.170 --> 00:39:25.660 All day, every day and twice on Tuesdays. 00:39:26.230 --> 00:39:29.230 Michael Riley: Now, are you, let me ask you a question, Peter, have you 00:39:29.230 --> 00:39:32.380 ever audited those jobs and looked at how much time you spend with the 00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:35.890 customer designing and proofing and invoicing and waiting for payment? 00:39:36.430 --> 00:39:38.110 Are you actually making money on those? 00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:40.210 I mean, I know it's a legitimate question. 00:39:40.210 --> 00:39:42.280 I'm not, I'm not, I don't mean to sound accusatory. 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:43.990 Like, dude, you're losing your ass on it. 00:39:44.050 --> 00:39:44.530 I'm curious. 00:39:44.530 --> 00:39:48.430 Are you actually making money on it is a profitable or is it like a loss leader? 00:39:50.985 --> 00:39:54.855 Peter Kourounis: Well, first of all, there is there's the, let me, let me, 00:39:54.945 --> 00:39:59.355 let me be specific with something from boat lettering or boat numbers, whatever 00:39:59.355 --> 00:40:02.518 you want to call it is it's definitely something that most shops will do. 00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:07.019 Simply because they have the means to do it, but I do have a minimum order 00:40:07.019 --> 00:40:08.849 amount, so I won't do it for $50. 00:40:08.849 --> 00:40:09.760 I don't really do it. 00:40:10.180 --> 00:40:11.350 I don't really do nothing. 00:40:11.650 --> 00:40:15.880 I don't really do anything in my shop for $50 because of what you just said there, 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:21.070 like the times you speak to the customer, it could take 25 minutes to speak to 00:40:21.070 --> 00:40:23.140 them or even put vinyl into the plotter. 00:40:23.860 --> 00:40:27.880 So I'm certainly not, I'm mindful of the, of the, of the time allotment there. 00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:29.710 Our shop has a $200 minimum. 00:40:30.010 --> 00:40:39.820 So if it, if it's a boat members and maybe they got that, this is something 00:40:39.820 --> 00:40:41.830 that maybe we could do another. 00:40:43.390 --> 00:40:48.670 Call on another, another podcast on, but it's more of if they meet the minimums. 00:40:48.670 --> 00:40:49.090 Great. 00:40:49.150 --> 00:40:53.710 I'll sell that for $200 and I'll interrupt my entire day for that $200. 00:40:53.710 --> 00:40:57.430 Cause I know it's good money that's coming in and it's profitable money 00:40:57.430 --> 00:40:58.990 that's coming in at that price. 00:41:00.235 --> 00:41:00.535 Right. 00:41:00.535 --> 00:41:04.435 If it's three inch, four inch letters and it takes 25 minutes to 00:41:04.435 --> 00:41:09.745 weed mass cut hand, while they're waiting, I would absolutely do that. 00:41:09.745 --> 00:41:11.575 And I would stop whatever I was. 00:41:11.575 --> 00:41:14.695 I was working on for the $200 sale. 00:41:14.695 --> 00:41:19.375 Now not many shops would say what I just said, but it also, because it also 00:41:19.375 --> 00:41:21.415 depends on the type of shop that you have. 00:41:21.895 --> 00:41:23.125 If you're a fabricating. 00:41:24.865 --> 00:41:29.725 And you're doing a lot of like outdoor trade show, like signs, channel 00:41:29.725 --> 00:41:30.955 letters, things of that nature. 00:41:31.555 --> 00:41:34.285 Probably not going to stop your operations to do that. 00:41:34.285 --> 00:41:38.205 Maybe you'll get to it when, when you can, but if you're a vinyl shop and 00:41:38.215 --> 00:41:43.465 I, and I, I do decipher vinyl shops from production shops very often. 00:41:44.005 --> 00:41:46.795 You know, the guys like specimens, like what you're saying, right? 00:41:46.795 --> 00:41:46.975 Like. 00:41:48.005 --> 00:41:49.115 That's what my shop is. 00:41:49.115 --> 00:41:52.925 It's a 1500 square foot facility printer cutter plotter. 00:41:52.925 --> 00:41:58.085 I mean, why wouldn't we be able to do that job and get banging it out really quickly? 00:41:58.085 --> 00:42:01.085 It's like that quick banner, that quick vehicle magnets, that 00:42:01.085 --> 00:42:02.675 all it's in that same category. 00:42:02.675 --> 00:42:06.605 If I can get the number that I'm looking for and it heat and it meets 00:42:06.605 --> 00:42:09.605 the minimum and I can bang it out quickly, I'll absolutely do it. 00:42:10.925 --> 00:42:12.245 Michael Riley: You get a lot of pushback on your minimum, 00:42:14.615 --> 00:42:16.285 Peter Kourounis: you know, not nearly as much as I thought. 00:42:16.304 --> 00:42:18.464 And then that's something I did this year, by the way. 00:42:18.511 --> 00:42:20.442 I, it used to be $50 minimum. 00:42:20.442 --> 00:42:22.392 Now it's two, a $200 minimum. 00:42:22.502 --> 00:42:25.572 That's just kind of something we did to, I like that. 00:42:25.572 --> 00:42:25.872 It's two. 00:42:25.872 --> 00:42:28.602 Bryant Gillespie: And most of the shops that I talk to are like 00:42:29.172 --> 00:42:33.642 a hundred bucks, 150, but like 200 feels substantial enough. 00:42:34.242 --> 00:42:39.402 And like, at that level, like I probably, you know, I don't, I don't know how many 00:42:39.402 --> 00:42:42.157 of those, I don't know that I would have like, stopped and like knocked over. 00:42:42.195 --> 00:42:46.275 At that point, but like $200, like that was probably profitable 00:42:46.275 --> 00:42:47.325 for us back in the day. 00:42:48.045 --> 00:42:51.737 I it's just like, like one of the things I, I talked with I can't tell you how 00:42:51.737 --> 00:42:56.117 many shops I talked to you at, at shop box, like being in that environment. 00:42:56.117 --> 00:42:59.987 Like you, you get to actually look at some of their numbers or like if 00:42:59.987 --> 00:43:02.837 you're helping somebody put pricing into the system, like you get an 00:43:02.837 --> 00:43:05.257 actual look at the pricing and as. 00:43:07.542 --> 00:43:13.812 I seen a lot of people that like, get that, that type of job mixed up with in 00:43:13.812 --> 00:43:20.532 the, in the same queue or are blocking like a $3,000 job or like a $5,000 job. 00:43:21.132 --> 00:43:21.552 You know what I mean? 00:43:21.552 --> 00:43:26.322 If you've got 20 of those small jobs that are getting in the way of a larger job, 00:43:27.192 --> 00:43:31.182 you know, that could be a big problem, or maybe it's not depends on how fast 00:43:31.182 --> 00:43:32.862 you could get it out the door, but. 00:43:34.647 --> 00:43:37.137 Michael Riley: It definitely depends on the type of shop it is to like, like Peter 00:43:37.137 --> 00:43:41.007 said, I mean, if you're more like a retail vinyl shop, like a fast signs, you're 00:43:41.007 --> 00:43:42.797 going to have a specific production. 00:43:43.707 --> 00:43:44.937 Flow set up. 00:43:44.967 --> 00:43:47.007 If you're going to be geared more for that, where like, like you said, you're 00:43:47.007 --> 00:43:50.967 more like a fabrication, electrical shop where your vinyl cutter is used to cut, 00:43:51.777 --> 00:43:55.737 you know, translucent vinyl for backlit faces, not necessarily for knocking 00:43:55.737 --> 00:43:56.997 out boat numbers and stuff like that. 00:43:56.997 --> 00:43:57.387 Like yeah. 00:43:58.077 --> 00:44:03.507 Even a $200 boat number job is even less about the profitability of that job. 00:44:03.677 --> 00:44:06.957 It's a massive inconvenience and it's a huge interruption to 00:44:07.197 --> 00:44:08.697 workflow when you've got to stop. 00:44:09.792 --> 00:44:11.772 Your bread and butter to do something else. 00:44:11.772 --> 00:44:14.365 I mean, that, that becomes a major issue as well. 00:44:14.378 --> 00:44:18.578 But I'm glad you've got a substantial minimum order. 00:44:18.578 --> 00:44:19.088 I mean, yeah. 00:44:19.118 --> 00:44:21.458 Like, you know, my time at shot box too, like I would see 00:44:21.458 --> 00:44:22.328 the same thing all the time. 00:44:24.128 --> 00:44:26.468 People will, one of the, one of the features in shot boxes, you can set 00:44:26.468 --> 00:44:29.198 up like a minimum price on an item or something like that, or, you know, line 00:44:29.198 --> 00:44:30.818 charger, but I'm going to charge and. 00:44:31.898 --> 00:44:32.468 I can talk to me. 00:44:32.468 --> 00:44:34.508 How many times, how many shops I talked to you were like your 00:44:34.508 --> 00:44:36.128 minimum order was 25 bucks. 00:44:36.257 --> 00:44:37.697 You know, the thought process behind that. 00:44:37.697 --> 00:44:37.907 Okay. 00:44:37.937 --> 00:44:38.807 I'm going to set a boat numbers. 00:44:38.807 --> 00:44:39.917 We'll keep beating on boat numbers here. 00:44:40.547 --> 00:44:40.967 Yeah. 00:44:40.967 --> 00:44:45.317 Like a buck 50 and material in a, in a set of boat numbers, you know, between 00:44:45.317 --> 00:44:50.225 the vinyl transportation, you know, in 20 minutes to cut it and we didn't 00:44:50.225 --> 00:44:51.875 tape it and send it out the door. 00:44:51.875 --> 00:44:52.085 Right. 00:44:52.085 --> 00:44:53.345 So that's what, that's what people are seeing. 00:44:53.345 --> 00:44:55.115 But you know, it goes back to that upfront time. 00:44:55.165 --> 00:44:56.345 I mean, it still takes time to. 00:44:57.080 --> 00:44:59.720 Stand there and talk it out with the customer, figure out what they want, zine 00:44:59.720 --> 00:45:02.690 it, create your file, get it through them. 00:45:02.900 --> 00:45:04.400 Bill it, receive the payment. 00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:07.730 And that's where it's so many people don't take into consideration 00:45:07.730 --> 00:45:10.340 is just that ancillary time. 00:45:10.340 --> 00:45:12.920 It takes to just write up an order and get it to the production floor. 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.470 It's not about the dollar 50 and material you have in it. 00:45:15.470 --> 00:45:16.610 And the 15 minutes you got a. 00:45:17.140 --> 00:45:19.600 You know, you're pulling on our employee or we didn't tape it. 00:45:19.600 --> 00:45:22.000 It's, it's, it's all the other time that it takes up. 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:24.460 And it's all the other stuff that it puts on the back burner while you're 00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:28.360 producing that set of boat numbers that you're not making that $3,000 job to. 00:45:29.020 --> 00:45:29.200 Yeah. 00:45:29.230 --> 00:45:32.680 And that's where people feel that I don't know 00:45:35.350 --> 00:45:36.910 Bryant Gillespie: the reason people price too cheap. 00:45:37.240 --> 00:45:40.600 Peter, why did they price it too cheap? 00:45:43.895 --> 00:45:47.675 Peter Kourounis: The fear of losing a sale underestimate. 00:45:49.635 --> 00:45:53.595 Now fear I was right here wrong. 00:45:53.835 --> 00:45:55.005 That's the way it goes. 00:45:55.485 --> 00:45:55.725 Bryant Gillespie: Okay. 00:45:55.755 --> 00:45:56.565 Maybe number two. 00:45:56.775 --> 00:46:00.825 So there's probably a list of these, but underestimating your time like 00:46:00.825 --> 00:46:04.395 Mike is talking about is one of the biggest things that I've seen. 00:46:04.665 --> 00:46:06.435 And I've talked to a lot of shop owners. 00:46:07.425 --> 00:46:08.565 Michael Riley: I would say the same thing. 00:46:08.565 --> 00:46:12.585 Like, yeah, like the fear is big loo the fear of losing a sale. 00:46:12.585 --> 00:46:14.415 I'd say it's probably a close second, but. 00:46:15.635 --> 00:46:20.735 If there's any like one common thread that I could, I could draw between the vast 00:46:20.735 --> 00:46:24.845 majority of shop owners that I've worked with over the years, it's the same thing. 00:46:24.845 --> 00:46:28.055 It's that they don't a, they undervalue their own style and they 00:46:28.055 --> 00:46:31.085 don't, they don't really stop and think about how much time they have 00:46:31.085 --> 00:46:32.825 into a job outside of the actual. 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:35.690 Producing the tangible object. 00:46:35.690 --> 00:46:40.340 They don't think about all that other time outside of that, in that I think 00:46:40.340 --> 00:46:43.970 that's where so many people fall short on pricing is they don't recognize that. 00:46:44.150 --> 00:46:47.690 And then the shops that I've ever seen that are truly profitable, then, you 00:46:47.690 --> 00:46:51.980 know, we can talk about the 10, 15, $20 million a year shops, the big guys. 00:46:53.435 --> 00:46:55.385 Those guys understand what their time is worth. 00:46:56.015 --> 00:46:58.145 And they're not afraid to ask for that, that amount of money. 00:46:58.145 --> 00:47:03.485 And if you're not willing for a time, the left the out the door or won't think twice 00:47:03.485 --> 00:47:07.175 about, and that's what separates those big shops from the little shops right there. 00:47:07.175 --> 00:47:09.515 I mean a mountain above and beyond anything else. 00:47:09.545 --> 00:47:11.885 The $20 million shops know what their time is worth. 00:47:12.425 --> 00:47:16.115 And the $200,000 shops have no clue what their time is worth. 00:47:16.865 --> 00:47:17.045 Well, 00:47:17.585 --> 00:47:22.145 Bryant Gillespie: when you go back to the fear thing, Like you, you kinda know 00:47:22.145 --> 00:47:23.555 you're working with the fear, right. 00:47:23.555 --> 00:47:28.745 But let's say you're, you're not factoring in like the admin time or 00:47:28.745 --> 00:47:32.525 the setup time to just throw a cut lope in a file and throw a cut line on it. 00:47:32.525 --> 00:47:35.375 Like, if you're not factoring that in when you're pricing, like 00:47:35.375 --> 00:47:36.725 you're working with flawed logic. 00:47:36.755 --> 00:47:42.755 So like, you know, the fear, like I can, I can like acknowledge the fear, but like, 00:47:42.755 --> 00:47:47.135 if, if I don't know what, I don't know, like I, if I've just not factoring that 00:47:47.135 --> 00:47:49.325 time in, I'm just like shooting myself. 00:47:50.430 --> 00:47:52.470 In the foot before I even get started. 00:47:52.470 --> 00:47:52.740 Yeah. 00:47:53.790 --> 00:47:56.010 Michael Riley: Well, fear is a powerful motivator, right? 00:47:56.850 --> 00:47:59.670 In fear is, you know, something that motivates all of us all 00:47:59.670 --> 00:48:02.160 day every day, whether we're consciously aware of it or not. 00:48:02.160 --> 00:48:07.080 I mean, everything we do is motivated by fear in some way, but you're right. 00:48:07.080 --> 00:48:08.370 Like how do you channel that fear? 00:48:08.370 --> 00:48:09.990 And are you using that fear correctly? 00:48:09.990 --> 00:48:14.370 And I would say that if somebody is the fear of losing a job is 00:48:14.370 --> 00:48:17.550 pushing somebody to just quote the job cheaper, to win the job. 00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:19.290 You're misdirecting that fear. 00:48:20.495 --> 00:48:25.565 Or you're aiming that fear of the wrong thing, that fear should inspire you to 00:48:25.775 --> 00:48:29.165 dot your I's and cross your T's and make sure that you're charging appropriately. 00:48:29.645 --> 00:48:32.735 Not I'm just going to drop my pants, get the job because 00:48:32.735 --> 00:48:33.695 I'm afraid I'm gonna lose it. 00:48:34.175 --> 00:48:36.965 Because if you do that, you're going to lose money or the way you might as 00:48:36.965 --> 00:48:43.865 well lose the money and not have to pay an employee for it, lean into the 00:48:43.865 --> 00:48:45.515 fear, but don't run from it, I guess. 00:48:52.605 --> 00:48:53.475 Bryant Gillespie: Lean into the fear, 00:48:56.965 --> 00:49:01.896 so, wrapping this thing up, guys really enjoyed this first episode. 00:49:02.886 --> 00:49:03.036 Peter Kourounis: Yeah. 00:49:03.036 --> 00:49:03.596 Meet someone better. 00:49:06.291 --> 00:49:08.211 This definitely went better than I thought it would. 00:49:10.731 --> 00:49:12.261 Bryant Gillespie: I think there's all three of us, right. 00:49:14.061 --> 00:49:15.441 Peter Kourounis: All right, the next one. 00:49:15.851 --> 00:49:17.961 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, pricing too cheap. 00:49:18.171 --> 00:49:22.011 If you're doing that now look at your quotes, right? 00:49:22.371 --> 00:49:27.201 If you're winning 85, 90% of your quotes, you're probably too cheap. 00:49:27.265 --> 00:49:31.915 If you haven't updated your pricing because of COVID and supply issues, if you 00:49:31.915 --> 00:49:36.125 haven't updated your pricing in the last year or two, you're probably too cheap. 00:49:36.125 --> 00:49:36.488 What else? 00:49:36.488 --> 00:49:36.878 Peter? 00:49:37.058 --> 00:49:37.358 What am I. 00:49:38.878 --> 00:49:42.868 Peter Kourounis: Audit your time, your financial, oh yeah. 00:49:42.898 --> 00:49:47.338 At the top of the list, audit your time, audit your time, pay attention 00:49:47.338 --> 00:49:48.838 to your financial statements. 00:49:49.528 --> 00:49:50.668 They tell a story. 00:49:50.769 --> 00:49:51.939 But very interesting story. 00:49:52.460 --> 00:49:52.880 Bryant Gillespie: Perfect. 00:49:53.570 --> 00:49:54.800 All right guys, that's a wrap. 00:49:55.274 --> 00:49:56.234 Peter Kourounis: Alright, awesome. 00:49:56.599 --> 00:49:56.989 Michael Riley: Peace out, 00:49:57.325 --> 00:49:57.565 Peter Kourounis: please.