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Welcome to Honest Money.

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I'm your host, Anya, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.

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Anja: Hello.

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Joining me today is Seb Bunny.

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Probably a man who doesn't need
an introduction, and I have a

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little surprise for you, Seb.

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You're my 21st guest.

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Seb: No way.

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Yes.

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That's awesome.

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That's really, really cool.

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Oh man.

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23. That's amazing.

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Or 21, sorry.

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Anja: Yeah, 2021.

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Is it, is it nighttime
where you're currently at?

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Seb: No, it looks dark and
it's simply just because we

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are in the depths of winter.

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Anja: Oh.

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Seb: Although, if I turn my
laptop, you can see out the window.

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It's raining outside right now, and
it's about two or three degrees.

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It's at the moment, it's, I would say
we've got the middle of winter vibes

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where you're kind of like settling down.

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You're spending time by the fire, and
you're doing a lot of self-reflection

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on 2025, and I'm sure once spring has
sprung, I'll be up and about looking

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at the world from a different light.

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But at the moment, I've definitely been in
the depths of just like looking in woods.

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Anja: It looks very cozy.

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I'm also based in the woods right
now, but I'm in a tropical woods

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with like almost a jungle vibe.

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Um, yeah, so kind of almost
the polar opposite of you.

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Seb: You know what, like, I think
that depending on wherever you

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are in the world, I find it so
fascinating that we're all going

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through like different experiences.

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I'm from New Zealand and uh, when
Christmas comes around it's like, well,

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let's have a barbecue on the beach.

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And here it's like when Christmas comes
around, it's like, nope, you're in the

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depths of like 10 feet of snow and it's
very much like the middle of winter.

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And so it's interesting just to notice
how we're showing up differently

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depending on where you're in the world.

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Anja: Yeah, absolutely.

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So talking about 2025, what have been
some of your reflections about that?

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Seb: Mm. I would say, you know what,
like there, there's a book that I'm

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reading right now by a guy called Jay
Krishnamurti and, uh, he's just a really

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profound, profound individual and just
shares just such a wealth of wisdom.

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One of the things he talks about
is just the importance of being

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present, the importance of, um,
being able to notice that everything

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we experience is just information.

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And we are the ones that attach
the labels of positive and

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negative to any such situation.

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And usually if we're feeling
frustrated or we're feeling angry,

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we're feeling a lot of, what are
these deemed like, heavier emotions.

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It tends to be because we're comparing
what is happening right now to a

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state that we want to be in, or
we're comparing what's happening

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right now to the past or the future.

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And that means that we're
actually not being present.

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And so any situation being able to
recognize, hey, be grounded, it's

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just information and just accept
the situation for what it is.

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And what comes up is as you,
uh, in the question you asked is

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there's an old, I think it's like a
Buddhist fable, and it talks about.

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How there's this farmer and this
farmer wakes up one morning and he

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goes outside and his horse has run
away, and his next door neighbor is

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like, man, you have the worst luck.

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And he is like, oh, well,
you know, goes about his day.

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He goes back to bed the next day he
wakes up and uh, goes outside and his

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horse is returned with four wild horses.

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And the farmer is just like the next,
uh, the next neighbor, sorry, is like,

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oh my God, you have the best luck.

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He was like, oh, well, you know,
goes about his day, goes back to bed,

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wakes up the next morning and his
son has gone outside to try and ride

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one of these wild horses and, uh,
falls off and breaks his arm and the

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next door neighbor is just like, man.

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You have the worst luck.

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And he was just like, well, you
know, goes about his day, goes back

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to bed, wakes up the next morning
and his nation has gone to war.

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And uh, all like everyone has to
enlist unless they're injured.

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And so his son didn't have to go to war.

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And so I think what it's really trying
to highlight is how we go through life

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and we have all of these experiences and
sometimes we can get caught up labeling

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them as like, oh man, that's a negative
experiences, that's a bad experience.

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But in reality they're just situations
and they're situations that lead to the

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next situation and the next situation.

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And so I think our perspective is what's
really important and being able to look

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at everything from a positive perspective.

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What kind of learn from this
I think is so important.

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There's my rant.

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Anja: Yeah, absolutely.

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Love, love the rant.

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Uh, yeah, I, I love fables.

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I think there's just, again,
it goes back to storytelling.

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Um, it's just such a great way to kind
of relay information onto other humans.

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And, and I remember growing up, my
grandparents would tell me a lot of

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stories like this, um, as I was a kid,
and it's had a big influence in my life.

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So, um, yeah, I do like it.

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Seb: Well, and, and to be honest
as well, like what I find really

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interesting, my own journey has been
kind of diving into, obviously Bitcoin,

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but also just like trauma and, and
childhood experience and culture.

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And what's really interesting when you
start digging into childhood experiences,

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how do we pass down knowledge?

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How do we pass down culture?

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And there's certain
kind of, uh, movements.

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Let's take like the hippie movement
that has been around since the

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sixties, the seventies, and is
only two generations old and.

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Almost dead.

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And then you see other cultures
like the Australian Aborigines

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that have been around for a hundred
thousand years and in many ways are

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continuing to pass down that culture.

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And so you ask why.

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What is the difference between
them and the hippie movement?

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And the difference is that the hippie
movement is a peer driven culture.

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The hippie movement is peers sharing
information, which means the next

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generation isn't privy to that
information tends to die very quickly.

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Whereas I think that it's become sad
that we've got this society that's

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so independent, we kind of live our
own lives, that we don't hear these

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fables passed down by our grandparents.

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We don't hear these fables passed down by
our ancestors that are able to share so

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much wisdom about how to show up in life.

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And I think when you look at a lot of
these more indigenous populations, they

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live in multi-generational households.

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Uh, as a kid, you're experiencing
multiple generations with very different

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insights and wisdom to pass down.

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And so I think that.

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As I'm getting older, I'm recognizing the
importance of just really expanding that

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friend network to people of all ages,
being able to really spend time with,

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uh, grandparents, great-grandparents,
because everyone has such a different

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perspective and can pass down wisdom.

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And I think it's how we build closeness
and knowledge about the world as

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opposed to just being with our peers.

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Anja: Yeah.

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I love what you said, and I kind of
wanna dive a little bit further into,

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into something I, uh, I think, um,
you mentioned, and that is the, the

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theme around trauma and independence.

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You strike me as a very
independent person.

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Um, do you think that has anything
to do with your, like, upbringing?

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Seb: Absolutely.

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Like one, 100%.

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And, and I think that
trauma can go both ways.

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Um, it, it can make you very
anxious and say your attachments,

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it can make you hyper independent.

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Um, I would say that, and I
don't talk maybe too much about

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this on kind like podcasts, but.

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Like my mom, uh, was a single mom
and my dad didn't really want much

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to do with me when I was a kid.

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And, uh, what that meant is that
I spent a lot of time with my mom.

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And my mom had a really traumatic
upbringing in New Zealand.

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My grandparents were Australian,
my, well, my granddad's

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Australian grandma's a a Kiwi.

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And my mom was kind of kicked out of
the house at like 13 years old and

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I kind of had to fend for herself.

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And so when she had me who was
an accident, all of a sudden

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she was like, oh my god.

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I've gotta take
accountability in this life.

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And she just kind of fueled all of
her energy into me and I kind of ended

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up becoming her emotional support.

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And so what it's meant is that I think
from my mom, having to figure out life at

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such an early age, and then also putting
on a lot of pressure on me to also meet

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her emotional needs, I've walked through
this world with a need to support others.

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And I, I, I think an independence,
but that's very much from my own

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upbringing, from my childhood.

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And then I see it the
inverse with my brother.

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I've got two, two younger brothers, the
youngest brother, I think by the time my

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mom had my youngest brother who had this
five years difference, my youngest brother

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kind of, uh, Muhammad was so tired.

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She had kind of spent most of
her life raising the three of us.

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And she didn't have as
much energy to give to him.

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And 'cause he didn't necessarily
have his emotional needs met to

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the same extent, I think he's
constantly looking for attachment.

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He's looking for attachment.

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And so what you see is, uh.

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Me being the oldest, hyper independent,
looking out for others, him being

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the youngest needs connection,
needs attachment, and is reliant

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on, um, validation from others.

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And so you see the dynamic shift, even
just being the youngest to the oldest.

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Our relationship with others,
our relationship with our parents

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growing up at different times.

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Anja: Yep.

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You do give me the oldest
child vibes as well.

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Seb: I, there's definitely, sibling
placement is so fascinating.

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Like I, I can, usually, when I
meet someone, I've, I've probably

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got an 80% win rate at guessing if
they're the oldest child or not.

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Like I, you can usually tell
either an oldest child or even

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an only child, only children give
off very unique vibes I find.

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Anja: Okay.

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Do you wanna guess me?

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Seb: No, we're, we're apart.

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We're alive right now.

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I do you have siblings though, don't you?

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Anja: Um, well, I, I,
I did have a brother.

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He passed away nearly
like eight years ago now.

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So, um, yeah, kind of unexpected.

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Very unexpected actually.

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So yeah, that was, that was
very traumatic for my family.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I,

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Seb: oh, sorry.

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You go.

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Anja: Yeah.

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I wanted to ask you, um, what
is your first money memory?

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Like, do you remember, do you have
like the earliest memory about

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money as like a toddler or a child?

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That's a really good question.

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I don't think I've ever been
asked this question before.

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join slash Honest Money and

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Seb: Hmm.

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You know, I remember, I remember
growing up like this is when, so I

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was born in the UK and raised in New
Zealand, and we moved from New Zealand

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when I was about five years old.

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And I remember receiving pocket money
and wanting to really count the coins.

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There was something, so I I, I visceral
about having tangible money and I

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always used to also want to find money.

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So I used to then go and hide my pocket
money around the house and in various ball

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games and in various pockets to try and
forget about it, to then go find it later.

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But I was, uh, I would always remember
where I hid it, so I, I was never able

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to trick myself into try to find money.

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But I would say that like, that
was my first memory of money as

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I remember feeling like there
was an importance to money.

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I remember feeling as if this thing
that I'm holding right now, there's an

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importance, there's a weight to it, not
meaning physically and more meaning like

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emotionally and, and, and, uh, yeah.

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And I would say that what comes
to mind again as you ask that

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question is there's a Ted talk.

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I listened to around eight, nine years
ago, and the Ted Talk was discussing

230
00:11:57,268 --> 00:12:03,178
this idea about how kids these days have
lost touch with the importance of money.

231
00:12:03,538 --> 00:12:07,108
And one of the reasons is because
money is no longer tangible,

232
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money is largely digital.

233
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It becomes so much easier to spend.

234
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We are not as attached to money
as we have been in many ways.

235
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And I'm not necessarily talking in a
negative way that we care about money, but

236
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more because of the tangible nature of it.

237
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You can feel it in your pocket.

238
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I think, uh, we, money to
us carries more weight.

239
00:12:23,818 --> 00:12:26,758
And so what this guy ended up
doing, this Ted Talk was about

240
00:12:26,968 --> 00:12:28,408
was he took a game of Monopoly.

241
00:12:28,708 --> 00:12:33,268
He swapped out all of the money for
real money, and then he noticed how

242
00:12:33,268 --> 00:12:36,808
the kids changed their tactics and
changed how they played the game.

243
00:12:37,288 --> 00:12:41,308
And the moment he put real money
in the game and he put a bit of a

244
00:12:41,308 --> 00:12:45,568
monetary reward for the winner of
the game, all of a sudden the kids

245
00:12:45,568 --> 00:12:47,548
were a lot more fiscally responsible.

246
00:12:47,698 --> 00:12:49,198
They started to show up more.

247
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They started to take accountability more.

248
00:12:51,268 --> 00:12:55,108
And so you see it in kids today where,
because they just get given their

249
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parents credit card or in many times they
don't even get given the credit card.

250
00:12:58,288 --> 00:12:59,518
They can just tap their phone.

251
00:13:00,028 --> 00:13:00,778
What they.

252
00:13:01,633 --> 00:13:05,083
What they're being taught is that
money is just, just ethereal thing

253
00:13:05,083 --> 00:13:07,033
and you can walk through life
and you can get what you want.

254
00:13:07,243 --> 00:13:12,073
And so I think that it's no wonder
that, uh, a lot of these banks, uh, they

255
00:13:12,073 --> 00:13:15,853
go and sell credit cards, these debt
instruments to these young kids, these

256
00:13:15,853 --> 00:13:20,473
teenagers, these high school students,
these, these, um, university students.

257
00:13:20,653 --> 00:13:23,443
And then they define themselves an
immense amount of debt because it's

258
00:13:23,443 --> 00:13:26,623
so easy to spend money these days
without an understanding of the

259
00:13:26,623 --> 00:13:28,153
importance or how hard it is to earn.

260
00:13:28,393 --> 00:13:31,963
So it's interesting, there was a bit of
a random thread there, but I, I'm, I'm

261
00:13:31,963 --> 00:13:37,153
noticing that, uh, as we moved away from
tangible money into the digital world, it

262
00:13:37,153 --> 00:13:38,548
also changed how we interact with money.

263
00:13:39,013 --> 00:13:43,723
And so I very much remember as a kid
the, the, the importance of physical

264
00:13:43,723 --> 00:13:45,163
money and liking to count my money.

265
00:13:46,423 --> 00:13:48,523
Anja: Yeah, I can
certainly relate to that.

266
00:13:48,523 --> 00:13:49,723
I, I remember that as well.

267
00:13:49,723 --> 00:13:51,763
And I, very early on, remember.

268
00:13:52,408 --> 00:13:56,188
Feeling like I knew that money had value.

269
00:13:56,578 --> 00:13:56,788
Mm-hmm.

270
00:13:57,028 --> 00:14:01,498
Um, it was like property that was
different to other kinds of property.

271
00:14:01,978 --> 00:14:07,678
Um, but how do you think, you know,
Bitcoin being digital, how do you

272
00:14:07,678 --> 00:14:11,698
think that's going to impact future
generations and, and people being raised?

273
00:14:11,698 --> 00:14:15,868
Are kids being raised and taught
about, um, Bitcoin very early on?

274
00:14:15,868 --> 00:14:20,668
Do you think they're gonna
not feel like it's, it's real?

275
00:14:21,598 --> 00:14:25,858
Seb: So it's a really interesting point
because I think that this whole topic that

276
00:14:25,858 --> 00:14:29,518
we've just been discussing is as money's
gone digital, we have almost become

277
00:14:29,518 --> 00:14:30,778
more and more disconnected from money.

278
00:14:31,018 --> 00:14:32,728
But I think that that's multifactorial.

279
00:14:32,728 --> 00:14:33,868
There's another factor in that.

280
00:14:33,868 --> 00:14:36,388
And that is that as money has lost value.

281
00:14:36,778 --> 00:14:38,698
We have our time preference.

282
00:14:38,698 --> 00:14:42,778
So for those that aren't familiar, you've
got the spectrum of, of, of preference.

283
00:14:43,018 --> 00:14:45,298
You've got a high time preference
on one side, which is you want

284
00:14:45,298 --> 00:14:48,628
to meet your immediate needs,
you want to kind of be impulsive.

285
00:14:48,838 --> 00:14:51,718
And then on the other end of the
spectrum, you've got low time preference.

286
00:14:51,718 --> 00:14:54,328
And that is you're thinking about the
future, you're thinking about prosperity.

287
00:14:54,328 --> 00:14:56,518
How do I show up and be
the best version of myself?

288
00:14:56,938 --> 00:15:00,598
And so I think that as money has broken
down, as we've faced inflation, as

289
00:15:00,598 --> 00:15:04,588
our purchasing power doesn't go as
far, it's shifted us from this lower

290
00:15:04,588 --> 00:15:07,858
time preference, thinking about the
future to this higher time preference.

291
00:15:08,128 --> 00:15:10,588
Oh my God, I don't know what my
money's gonna be worth tomorrow.

292
00:15:10,648 --> 00:15:12,988
This is all unconscious,
so I'm gonna spend it now.

293
00:15:13,438 --> 00:15:18,028
And so I think that, um, we have
become hyper fixated on money,

294
00:15:18,298 --> 00:15:20,338
earning money because we don't
know where it's gonna come from.

295
00:15:20,338 --> 00:15:22,138
We don't know how we're
gonna put food on the table.

296
00:15:22,138 --> 00:15:24,118
We don't know how we're
gonna support our families.

297
00:15:24,658 --> 00:15:27,478
And what I've found really
interesting about Bitcoin is, even

298
00:15:27,478 --> 00:15:32,158
though it is digital, because when
you look at your wallet, you're

299
00:15:32,158 --> 00:15:35,098
starting to see your purchasing
power increase over the long term.

300
00:15:35,563 --> 00:15:37,843
You start to think very
differently, it starts impacting

301
00:15:37,843 --> 00:15:39,043
you on a psychological level.

302
00:15:39,403 --> 00:15:41,683
If all of a sudden you
think, okay, you know what?

303
00:15:41,683 --> 00:15:45,853
Based on my income, I think it's
gonna take me 10, 15 years to save

304
00:15:45,853 --> 00:15:47,203
for a down payment for a house.

305
00:15:47,533 --> 00:15:49,208
And then with Bitcoin,
five years in, you're like.

306
00:15:49,828 --> 00:15:53,788
Oh my God, I may be able to save for
a house within the next couple years.

307
00:15:53,998 --> 00:15:56,518
All of a sudden, it's made the future.

308
00:15:56,518 --> 00:15:59,398
You've brought it forward, and you
are able to start dreaming again.

309
00:15:59,398 --> 00:16:01,288
You're able to start
having hope for the future.

310
00:16:01,288 --> 00:16:05,008
And so I think Bitcoin is shifting
our behavior, even though it is

311
00:16:05,008 --> 00:16:10,108
digital, it's shifting it towards
saving less consumption and thinking

312
00:16:10,108 --> 00:16:13,828
about prosperity and how do I show
up and be the best version of myself?

313
00:16:14,098 --> 00:16:18,028
And so I kind of tend to say like
the irony of Bitcoin being money.

314
00:16:18,568 --> 00:16:22,618
It actually gets us to stop thinking about
money and starts getting us to think about

315
00:16:22,798 --> 00:16:24,418
what is actually most important to me?

316
00:16:24,748 --> 00:16:26,278
How do I actually wanna show up?

317
00:16:26,488 --> 00:16:28,258
What is it that I really value?

318
00:16:28,498 --> 00:16:32,428
And so that I find is so fascinating,
like even on my own personal journey,

319
00:16:32,428 --> 00:16:33,688
I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

320
00:16:34,198 --> 00:16:39,088
Bitcoin has made me reflect so much
more on what is actually important to me

321
00:16:39,298 --> 00:16:42,838
and recognizing that what is important
to me is not these external things.

322
00:16:42,988 --> 00:16:46,498
Having the nice watch, having the
nice car, having a nice this or that.

323
00:16:46,708 --> 00:16:50,068
It's actually, hey, I really want
to contribute and create value for

324
00:16:50,068 --> 00:16:53,038
society, and I really want to be able
to support those that I care about.

325
00:16:53,128 --> 00:16:56,668
And I really want to be able to
build a family because I want

326
00:16:56,668 --> 00:16:58,738
to see the human race thrive.

327
00:16:58,738 --> 00:17:00,028
And I think we need to have kids.

328
00:17:00,238 --> 00:17:04,528
And so anyway, I I, I think that, um,
Bitcoin is changing how we're showing

329
00:17:04,528 --> 00:17:08,278
up and it's allowing us to think bigger
and it's allowing us to think about

330
00:17:08,278 --> 00:17:10,618
the future and it's actually getting
us to stop thinking about money.

331
00:17:10,948 --> 00:17:14,308
Whereas where money is broken, it's
getting us to constantly hyper fixate on

332
00:17:14,308 --> 00:17:16,948
money and where is money gonna come from
and how do I make more money and such?

333
00:17:18,163 --> 00:17:18,853
Anja: Absolutely.

334
00:17:18,853 --> 00:17:20,533
I really re relate to that.

335
00:17:20,533 --> 00:17:24,673
And um, going back to my brother,
like I noticed, there's two

336
00:17:24,673 --> 00:17:28,243
things in my whole life that kind
of made me think about legacy.

337
00:17:28,243 --> 00:17:30,883
Like what is the legacy that I
want to impart on this world?

338
00:17:30,883 --> 00:17:35,863
And one is losing my brother and thinking
about his life and, and how much of an

339
00:17:35,863 --> 00:17:40,123
impact he had on the people around him
in the short time that he was with us.

340
00:17:40,183 --> 00:17:41,833
And the second is Bitcoin.

341
00:17:42,133 --> 00:17:46,723
So, you know, it's really, really made
me think about, again, that longer

342
00:17:46,723 --> 00:17:52,303
term time horizon and really helping
Australian families, um, understand it.

343
00:17:52,303 --> 00:17:57,583
Helping de weird Bitcoin in Australia
because it still carries a certain stigma.

344
00:17:57,973 --> 00:17:58,903
Um, and.

345
00:17:59,653 --> 00:18:01,123
I like to get into this as well.

346
00:18:01,123 --> 00:18:05,383
Sometimes I just ask chat GPT
conversations, like, why does

347
00:18:05,683 --> 00:18:07,723
Bitcoin break people's brains?

348
00:18:07,813 --> 00:18:12,043
And one of the things that came up from
like a psychological perspective that

349
00:18:12,043 --> 00:18:16,303
I thought was really interesting, um,
it said something along the lines of,

350
00:18:16,303 --> 00:18:21,943
people feel that it's unfair because it
breaks down the hierarchy that everybody's

351
00:18:21,943 --> 00:18:24,553
used to having an understanding.

352
00:18:24,553 --> 00:18:29,263
So in a system where you need to work
hard in order to make a living, and you

353
00:18:29,263 --> 00:18:36,403
need to, um, translate, you know, your
capital, your, your, I guess your income

354
00:18:36,403 --> 00:18:41,353
into some other forms of capital by
creating something or by investing that

355
00:18:41,353 --> 00:18:47,113
framework makes sense to people, but
then having something just go up in value

356
00:18:47,593 --> 00:18:53,863
because of its scarcity and because of its
attributes, it almost feels like unfair.

357
00:18:55,753 --> 00:18:57,463
So what do, what do you think of that?

358
00:18:58,573 --> 00:19:00,133
Seb: I, I think it's absolutely spot on.

359
00:19:00,343 --> 00:19:02,413
I would word it slightly differently.

360
00:19:02,563 --> 00:19:07,633
The way that I interpret it is that
like we all hold beliefs about the

361
00:19:07,633 --> 00:19:11,623
world, how we think the world works,
and these beliefs, the way that I kind

362
00:19:11,623 --> 00:19:12,548
of tend to think about them is maps.

363
00:19:13,213 --> 00:19:15,913
They're basically certain maps
that allow us to navigate this

364
00:19:15,913 --> 00:19:17,173
experience that we call life.

365
00:19:17,443 --> 00:19:19,753
And we have maps about relationships.

366
00:19:19,903 --> 00:19:23,263
We have maps about food and what we should
be eating, what we shouldn't be eating.

367
00:19:23,473 --> 00:19:28,273
We have maps about money, we have
maps about the sciences, biology,

368
00:19:28,543 --> 00:19:30,463
uh, psychology and and such.

369
00:19:30,823 --> 00:19:37,303
And what I find really fascinating is
that these maps, um, aren't the territory.

370
00:19:37,573 --> 00:19:39,403
They are a representation
of the territory.

371
00:19:39,403 --> 00:19:41,233
So we're constantly updating these maps.

372
00:19:41,233 --> 00:19:44,863
And I think that people why Bitcoin
is so threatening in many ways is

373
00:19:44,863 --> 00:19:48,013
because it breaks down some of our maps
about how we think the world works.

374
00:19:48,193 --> 00:19:50,713
And one of those is
obviously the map of money.

375
00:19:51,013 --> 00:19:53,833
I think we move through this world
for most people when we think, well,

376
00:19:54,133 --> 00:19:56,863
uh, prices naturally go up over time.

377
00:19:57,103 --> 00:20:00,043
And in order to be able to have a stable
currency, we need to have a central

378
00:20:00,043 --> 00:20:03,163
bank, a central issuer, and deflation.

379
00:20:03,163 --> 00:20:05,473
So prices falling is destabilizing.

380
00:20:05,743 --> 00:20:08,083
And so that is the map, that is money.

381
00:20:09,193 --> 00:20:11,713
With Bitcoin to be able to understand
Bitcoin, what you actually have to do

382
00:20:11,713 --> 00:20:13,573
is to tear up that map and recognize.

383
00:20:14,383 --> 00:20:16,813
Actually, if you wanna have a
stable currency, you need to

384
00:20:16,813 --> 00:20:18,223
remove a centralized issuer.

385
00:20:18,463 --> 00:20:22,243
And actually, because technology
is driving down prices, we should

386
00:20:22,243 --> 00:20:25,063
see prices falling over the
long term, not prices rising.

387
00:20:25,153 --> 00:20:27,733
And so all of a sudden that
like breaks people's minds.

388
00:20:27,733 --> 00:20:31,693
And so rather than redrawing that
map, which would obviously trigger

389
00:20:31,753 --> 00:20:36,223
redrawing many other maps about how do
governments work, maybe how does, how

390
00:20:36,223 --> 00:20:37,843
does money impact us as individuals?

391
00:20:37,843 --> 00:20:41,458
And um, people would rather just
stick with the map that they know.

392
00:20:41,683 --> 00:20:43,333
'cause it's very energy consumption.

393
00:20:43,958 --> 00:20:46,028
Having to re-figure out
how the world works.

394
00:20:46,028 --> 00:20:49,748
And I think that as, as human
beings, since the dawn of time,

395
00:20:49,898 --> 00:20:50,948
we're always trying to be efficient.

396
00:20:50,948 --> 00:20:52,568
We're trying to minimize
energy expenditure.

397
00:20:52,568 --> 00:20:55,838
And so if, if, if all of a sudden
we're having to redraw these maps and

398
00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:59,828
try and re-figure out how the world
works, especially if we're boomers

399
00:20:59,828 --> 00:21:04,148
and we've spent 65, 70 years on this
planet, that is very destabilizing.

400
00:21:04,418 --> 00:21:06,938
And so I think that that is, in
my mind, that's why Bitcoin is so

401
00:21:06,938 --> 00:21:10,358
threatening, is because it's getting
us to constantly redraw these maps.

402
00:21:10,748 --> 00:21:13,778
But what I've also found really
fascinating on the flip side is

403
00:21:13,778 --> 00:21:17,168
that when you go and interact with
Bitcoiners, because they've already

404
00:21:17,168 --> 00:21:21,428
redrawn this map, that is money, they
usually have also been curious about.

405
00:21:21,823 --> 00:21:25,333
What other maps am I using to navigate
this world that may not be accurate?

406
00:21:25,693 --> 00:21:28,753
And so all of a sudden they're
redrawing the maps that is healthcare,

407
00:21:28,783 --> 00:21:31,243
they're redrawing the maps, that is
pharmaceuticals, they're redrawing

408
00:21:31,243 --> 00:21:32,983
the maps, which is education.

409
00:21:32,983 --> 00:21:35,533
They're redrawing the maps,
which is global politics.

410
00:21:35,533 --> 00:21:39,763
And so I just, I find it so fascinating
that once you actually go on this,

411
00:21:39,883 --> 00:21:43,213
this journey of kind of being a
cartographer, going redrawing all

412
00:21:43,213 --> 00:21:46,573
of these maps, suddenly you start
realizing, huh, I've been using

413
00:21:46,573 --> 00:21:49,843
all these maps that are not really
representing reality that accurately.

414
00:21:49,993 --> 00:21:52,273
And that's, that's what I find
so fascinating about Bitcoin.

415
00:21:53,143 --> 00:21:54,493
Anja: Yeah, I love that.

416
00:21:54,493 --> 00:21:58,513
And it reminds me of one of my
favorite sayings, um, which is,

417
00:21:58,513 --> 00:21:59,803
let me just try and remember it.

418
00:22:00,508 --> 00:22:03,808
And there's a few different ones,
but like the root of our suffering.

419
00:22:03,808 --> 00:22:05,188
Have you heard of those sayings?

420
00:22:05,188 --> 00:22:05,248
No.

421
00:22:05,458 --> 00:22:09,478
There's a few different variations, but
the one that kind of seems to land the

422
00:22:09,478 --> 00:22:14,038
most with me is like the root of our
suffering is the lies we tell ourselves.

423
00:22:14,518 --> 00:22:14,848
Seb: Totally.

424
00:22:14,853 --> 00:22:15,223
That's so

425
00:22:15,228 --> 00:22:16,258
Anja: that's the one that lands.

426
00:22:16,678 --> 00:22:17,248
Seb: Yeah.

427
00:22:17,463 --> 00:22:21,598
I think that it's, it's almost
like there's a quote at the start.

428
00:22:21,598 --> 00:22:23,008
I think it's from Mark Twain.

429
00:22:23,068 --> 00:22:24,088
Don't quote me on this.

430
00:22:24,148 --> 00:22:28,468
It's at the start of the big short,
and so if anyone of most people have

431
00:22:28,468 --> 00:22:32,548
watched the big short about the housing
cla the collapse in 2008, and it says.

432
00:22:33,238 --> 00:22:35,698
It's not what we don't know
that gets us in trouble.

433
00:22:35,968 --> 00:22:37,918
It's what we know that just ain't so.

434
00:22:38,308 --> 00:22:40,468
And so, it's just like, to
me, I find this so important.

435
00:22:40,468 --> 00:22:42,928
It's just like we tend to be
looking out there for all of these

436
00:22:42,928 --> 00:22:45,508
things that we don't know about,
which is what gets us in trouble.

437
00:22:45,748 --> 00:22:48,778
But actually instead, it's
what we think about the world.

438
00:22:48,988 --> 00:22:50,638
It's how we think the world works.

439
00:22:50,668 --> 00:22:52,798
Only to realize that's
not how the world works.

440
00:22:52,798 --> 00:22:54,028
It actually gets us in trouble.

441
00:22:54,028 --> 00:22:57,448
And so it's the same idea we're
moving through this world using

442
00:22:57,448 --> 00:23:02,278
certain maps such as, Hey, you
know what, uh, animal fats are bad.

443
00:23:02,308 --> 00:23:03,568
I shouldn't be eating animal fats.

444
00:23:03,658 --> 00:23:04,108
You know what?

445
00:23:04,108 --> 00:23:07,828
I should just be eating grain and
that, and soy products and seed oils.

446
00:23:07,828 --> 00:23:10,828
And then all of a sudden it's like,
huh, these things aren't actually,

447
00:23:10,828 --> 00:23:11,878
they're not making me feel good.

448
00:23:12,088 --> 00:23:15,898
And, uh, maybe the research around
these things, there's certain

449
00:23:15,898 --> 00:23:18,808
incentives to push a certain agenda
that isn't necessarily good for health.

450
00:23:18,808 --> 00:23:20,308
So you go and redraw
the map and you're like,

451
00:23:20,668 --> 00:23:21,298
Anja: whoa,

452
00:23:21,748 --> 00:23:23,788
Seb: it's not what you don't
know that gets you in trouble.

453
00:23:23,848 --> 00:23:24,418
It's what you know.

454
00:23:24,508 --> 00:23:27,088
Or, sorry, it's what you know that
just ain't so, you redraw the map

455
00:23:27,118 --> 00:23:28,738
and suddenly life is very different.

456
00:23:28,738 --> 00:23:30,208
You feel so much better.

457
00:23:30,208 --> 00:23:30,713
And so I think that.

458
00:23:31,543 --> 00:23:34,633
What I always just am constantly
trying to do as an individual is

459
00:23:34,633 --> 00:23:35,833
to constantly redraw the maps.

460
00:23:35,833 --> 00:23:37,573
What maps am I using
that aren't servicing me?

461
00:23:38,653 --> 00:23:38,953
Anja: Yeah.

462
00:23:39,373 --> 00:23:40,663
And I love that analogy.

463
00:23:40,663 --> 00:23:45,313
It really, really lands I wanted to
talk to you about, like, we talk a

464
00:23:45,313 --> 00:23:50,833
lot as Bitcoin is about like all the
downstream effects of money, and we kind

465
00:23:50,833 --> 00:23:56,893
of tend to cover some of the more common
ones, like cost of living and um, the

466
00:23:56,893 --> 00:23:58,903
wealth disparity and things like that.

467
00:23:59,263 --> 00:24:02,803
But I wanted to know, and not
many people have spoken about

468
00:24:02,803 --> 00:24:04,093
this, but I think it's important.

469
00:24:04,093 --> 00:24:07,153
Do you think money has an
impact on dating culture?

470
00:24:08,233 --> 00:24:08,443
Seb: Oh yeah.

471
00:24:08,443 --> 00:24:09,193
100%.

472
00:24:10,238 --> 00:24:10,528
Anja: Yeah.

473
00:24:10,608 --> 00:24:11,048
Let's go.

474
00:24:11,418 --> 00:24:11,968
Let's go.

475
00:24:12,588 --> 00:24:12,808
Seb: Hmm.

476
00:24:12,938 --> 00:24:14,053
Where do I start?

477
00:24:14,203 --> 00:24:18,823
So I would say that, okay.

478
00:24:18,823 --> 00:24:20,113
Actually a perfect example.

479
00:24:20,113 --> 00:24:23,443
So where, where I live, I, I live
in a small town called Squamish.

480
00:24:23,683 --> 00:24:25,123
I just moved here about a year ago.

481
00:24:25,693 --> 00:24:30,373
30 minutes south of a ski town called
Whistler Whistler's, one of the biggest

482
00:24:30,373 --> 00:24:33,913
ski resorts in the world, people from
all over the world come to Whistler.

483
00:24:34,273 --> 00:24:39,883
What I've noticed in Whistler very early
on is that because there's so much demand

484
00:24:39,883 --> 00:24:46,183
to be in this place, so many people,
uh, are fighting for rental properties.

485
00:24:46,393 --> 00:24:48,763
As a result, rental prices skyrocket.

486
00:24:49,003 --> 00:24:52,663
What that means is that as a
single individual, it is so

487
00:24:52,663 --> 00:24:54,583
costly to live in Whistler.

488
00:24:54,823 --> 00:24:59,443
And so I've seen it time and time
and time again where people are

489
00:24:59,443 --> 00:25:02,953
pushed into relationships because
they're just like, you know what?

490
00:25:03,373 --> 00:25:07,003
If we actually go and rent a place
together right now, then we're gonna

491
00:25:07,003 --> 00:25:09,283
basically half our, uh, our expenditure.

492
00:25:09,823 --> 00:25:13,123
Uh, so life becomes a
lot easier as a couple.

493
00:25:13,213 --> 00:25:16,693
As a result of broken money, people
are being pushed into relationships,

494
00:25:16,693 --> 00:25:20,413
rushing into relationships where their
needs aren't necessarily being met.

495
00:25:20,713 --> 00:25:24,133
And this is, obviously we're seeing
this in small towns like Whistler,

496
00:25:24,133 --> 00:25:27,973
where you're seeing really high demand,
but it's not unique to Whistler.

497
00:25:27,973 --> 00:25:29,503
We're now seeing it, the world over.

498
00:25:29,713 --> 00:25:33,673
I think that when we're facing massive
inflation globally, when the cost of

499
00:25:33,673 --> 00:25:36,763
living is rising, when house prices
are skyrocketing, where rent is

500
00:25:36,763 --> 00:25:40,633
skyrocketing, food prices skyrocketing,
it's a lot cheaper to be a couple

501
00:25:40,813 --> 00:25:43,033
than it is to be a single individual.

502
00:25:43,273 --> 00:25:46,663
And I think that people are, again,
they're rushing into relationships

503
00:25:46,663 --> 00:25:47,728
without that self-reflection.

504
00:25:48,348 --> 00:25:49,753
And what are we seeing right now?

505
00:25:50,023 --> 00:25:53,083
Um, we are seeing the
highest rates of divorce.

506
00:25:53,553 --> 00:25:55,923
People are no longer getting
married at the same rate.

507
00:25:55,953 --> 00:25:59,283
Maybe that's because we're also
seeing a degradation of people

508
00:25:59,283 --> 00:26:00,573
kind of leaning into religion.

509
00:26:00,843 --> 00:26:05,643
Um, but I think there's a lot of negative
effects of rushing into relationships

510
00:26:05,643 --> 00:26:09,363
before people really know themselves,
before they really know each other.

511
00:26:09,603 --> 00:26:14,793
Um, and I've just seen on a deeper
level, just the rising rates of

512
00:26:14,793 --> 00:26:18,543
depression, the rising rates of anxiety,
the rising rates of substance abuse.

513
00:26:18,723 --> 00:26:22,983
And I think that, uh, money has
such a huge role to play in this.

514
00:26:23,193 --> 00:26:26,343
And people, if they're not having
their needs met in their relationship,

515
00:26:26,433 --> 00:26:29,733
but they can't afford to be single,
then people stand things that

516
00:26:29,733 --> 00:26:31,773
aren't necessarily servicing them.

517
00:26:31,953 --> 00:26:35,643
And so I've just seen this time and time
again, and I'm sure, um, of course I

518
00:26:35,643 --> 00:26:39,213
think there's many other aspects that we
can talk about, but I think that's a big

519
00:26:39,213 --> 00:26:40,563
one that kind of comes to mind initially.

520
00:26:41,458 --> 00:26:41,788
Anja: Yeah.

521
00:26:41,788 --> 00:26:42,598
Absolutely.

522
00:26:42,598 --> 00:26:47,248
And it goes to, yeah, it reminds me of
that typical high time preference dating.

523
00:26:47,458 --> 00:26:51,808
When you watch some old movies like
black and white movies, you think

524
00:26:51,808 --> 00:26:55,108
about there's like a process of
courting and that just doesn't happen.

525
00:26:56,158 --> 00:26:56,698
Seb: Totally.

526
00:26:56,835 --> 00:26:59,865
I think that, and this isn't even
necessarily a monetary thing, but I

527
00:26:59,865 --> 00:27:03,555
think that what technology is also
doing, and I've noticed this, I've

528
00:27:03,555 --> 00:27:05,685
spent time on dating apps, is that.

529
00:27:06,585 --> 00:27:11,115
When you're on a dating app, you're
picking someone really superficially,

530
00:27:11,115 --> 00:27:13,545
you don't know this person, you're
seeing some pictures of them.

531
00:27:13,545 --> 00:27:16,275
You're seeing maybe a tiny bit of
information, and you're choosing

532
00:27:16,275 --> 00:27:20,625
whether or not to swipe left or swipe
right, and by the time you go and meet

533
00:27:20,625 --> 00:27:24,795
up with someone who you have matched
with, you know what their agenda is.

534
00:27:24,795 --> 00:27:26,025
They know what your agenda is.

535
00:27:26,025 --> 00:27:28,755
It's that, hey, we want to potentially
make a relationship with this if

536
00:27:28,755 --> 00:27:29,865
we enjoy each other's company.

537
00:27:30,315 --> 00:27:34,905
And so what that has meant is that
after, say the first date of meeting

538
00:27:34,905 --> 00:27:36,795
someone, you've gotta choose.

539
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,090
Hey, am I really
interested in this person?

540
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:40,530
Am I not interested in this person?

541
00:27:40,620 --> 00:27:43,740
And so you almost go through
this rejection point where you

542
00:27:43,740 --> 00:27:46,260
have to reject someone, but
you don't even know the person.

543
00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:50,040
And so I think people are finding
themselves in relationships that they're

544
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,870
really not listening to their intuition.

545
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,320
Their intuition is maybe telling
them no, but they feel guilty about

546
00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:58,500
rejecting someone and saying, Hey, I
don't feel it in this relationship.

547
00:27:58,710 --> 00:28:01,260
So people are finding themselves
in relationships that they would

548
00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:03,900
never have got into if they'd just
met this person on the street.

549
00:28:04,290 --> 00:28:09,300
And the differences from even 10,
15 years ago is that everybody met.

550
00:28:10,235 --> 00:28:14,585
Either a, uh, in a, in a bar,
uh, through friend networks

551
00:28:14,705 --> 00:28:16,265
in the natural environment.

552
00:28:16,505 --> 00:28:19,895
And it meant that when you interact
with someone, they don't have to

553
00:28:19,895 --> 00:28:23,375
know that you're thinking about,
Hmm, am I interested in this person?

554
00:28:23,555 --> 00:28:27,125
And then after you've spent a little bit
of time with someone, then you can say,

555
00:28:27,305 --> 00:28:28,535
Hey, do you wanna go and grab a drink?

556
00:28:28,745 --> 00:28:29,945
Well, hey, do you wanna go on a date?

557
00:28:30,185 --> 00:28:34,595
And so you're able to determine where you
sit and listen to your body without having

558
00:28:34,595 --> 00:28:35,885
to go through that projection phase.

559
00:28:35,885 --> 00:28:39,455
So I find it really interesting how
technology is changing, how we're showing

560
00:28:39,455 --> 00:28:40,835
up from a relationship standpoint.

561
00:28:41,490 --> 00:28:42,630
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.

562
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:46,170
And the other thing as well, like,
you know, going back to the sixties

563
00:28:46,170 --> 00:28:49,890
and the seventies, you could easily
afford one, you know, family home

564
00:28:49,890 --> 00:28:51,780
on a single, on a single salary.

565
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,340
And that meant that, you know, women
could focus on staying at home and being

566
00:28:56,340 --> 00:28:58,320
stay at home, mic moms and home makers.

567
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,180
And that's just no longer a reality.

568
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,630
And I think a lot of women feel really
guilty about that because you're

569
00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:09,120
kind of having to choose between your
natural desires and what's kind of being

570
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,310
forced upon you top down in a sense.

571
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:13,140
So yeah, it's weird.

572
00:29:14,010 --> 00:29:14,400
Seb: Totally.

573
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,500
And I think on like building on that idea,
most people, uh, have, obviously they're

574
00:29:19,765 --> 00:29:21,150
familiar with like the feminist movement.

575
00:29:21,150 --> 00:29:23,130
And I hope this isn't
too controversial here.

576
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:23,670
Um,

577
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:23,760
Anja: no,

578
00:29:23,915 --> 00:29:24,765
Seb: this is a, but I think that

579
00:29:24,875 --> 00:29:25,845
Anja: Deep point podcast,

580
00:29:27,645 --> 00:29:27,965
Seb: I think that.

581
00:29:29,025 --> 00:29:29,505
What?

582
00:29:29,805 --> 00:29:32,805
What I've noticed when you really
dig into the history of the feminist

583
00:29:32,805 --> 00:29:37,545
movement is that the feminist movement
emerged out of the fact that the US

584
00:29:37,545 --> 00:29:40,665
government realized that only 50%
of the population were paying taxes.

585
00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:43,020
It was predominantly the males.

586
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,940
So how do we increase tax revenue?

587
00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:47,430
Well, let's just push it
that, no, we need equality.

588
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:53,820
We need like more women in the workforce
now I'm all for women being able to drop

589
00:29:53,820 --> 00:29:58,020
in, uh, to their masculine and be like,
Hey, I wanna be a manager of this company.

590
00:29:58,050 --> 00:29:59,370
I wanna start my own startup.

591
00:29:59,370 --> 00:30:00,390
I wanna do all of this.

592
00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:01,470
I'm all for that.

593
00:30:01,470 --> 00:30:04,650
I think it's absolutely amazing,
but women shouldn't necessarily

594
00:30:04,650 --> 00:30:06,240
have pressure to go and do that.

595
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,140
And I think that what it's done, the
feminist movement in many ways is there's

596
00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:13,170
a lot of women that are getting these
motherly instincts coming in and they're

597
00:30:13,170 --> 00:30:14,910
feeling like, Hey, I want to have a kid.

598
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,120
Hey, I want to, uh, show
up in different ways.

599
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,300
And they've had suppress that because
they felt judged from society.

600
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,080
And so where I live in the cedar sky,
I've had many friends that are women

601
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,530
that when they've reached their thirties,
their late thirties, and they start

602
00:30:28,530 --> 00:30:31,650
to reflect about who they are and what
they want, what they've realize is.

603
00:30:32,130 --> 00:30:36,660
Actually, I do want kids, and I do wanna
start a family, but it's now almost too

604
00:30:36,660 --> 00:30:41,850
late because I thought I had to go out
and do all of these masculine academic

605
00:30:41,850 --> 00:30:45,570
things and go and get the big job, the
high paying job be in the corporate world.

606
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,540
And I'm actually recognizing that
that's what society's pushing me to

607
00:30:48,540 --> 00:30:49,740
do, but that's not what I want to do.

608
00:30:50,250 --> 00:30:52,140
And so I find it really interesting.

609
00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:55,320
The pendulum, I feel like is starting
to swing back a little bit where

610
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,850
we're finding this balance where women
are able to lean into what they feel

611
00:30:59,850 --> 00:31:03,720
they need and what is important to
them, while also still being able to

612
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,910
branch out and be more professional.

613
00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:09,150
If they want to do that, go seek the
startup, the, the management job.

614
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,735
But if they're not feeling that,
they shouldn't feel shame in that and

615
00:31:11,740 --> 00:31:15,240
they shouldn't feel shame in wanting
to have kids or listen to, uh, that

616
00:31:15,245 --> 00:31:16,530
that motherly instinct and such.

617
00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:17,880
Anja: Yeah.

618
00:31:18,180 --> 00:31:23,100
And the other thing as well is what I
love about Bitcoin is that, you know,

619
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:27,000
there's many fathers that I know here
in, in Australia that absolutely do

620
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,680
get more time with their kids as well.

621
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,370
And that's the profound shift
that it's made for them as well.

622
00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:36,060
Like, it's so nice to have not one
but two parents at home mm-hmm.

623
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:37,650
Spending more time in being present.

624
00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:38,670
So, yeah.

625
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,170
Seb: Oh, couldn't agree more.

626
00:31:40,175 --> 00:31:43,260
And, and I, I feel really lucky that
I've spent a lot of time around kids.

627
00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:45,690
I've worked, I've done a
lot of coaching around kids.

628
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:50,010
Um, I've ran kids programs and I just
think there's something so rewarding

629
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,580
about passing knowledge onto the next
generation, being around young ones.

630
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:57,090
And so it's just like I cannot
wait to have kids and to be able to

631
00:31:57,090 --> 00:31:59,580
like, share that knowledge and to
interact with them in that level.

632
00:31:59,790 --> 00:32:02,550
And, uh, although I still want to
have things on the side, I want to

633
00:32:02,550 --> 00:32:04,020
have little businesses and startups.

634
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:07,380
I want to be able to like, introduce
kids to that at such a young age.

635
00:32:07,380 --> 00:32:09,840
And, and I think that that's just
what's missing in society is that

636
00:32:10,110 --> 00:32:14,640
most parents, both parents are going
out, they're having to work, the

637
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,110
kids are just going into daycare.

638
00:32:16,355 --> 00:32:18,305
The kids are not getting
their attachment needs met.

639
00:32:18,515 --> 00:32:20,285
The parents are going out
and they're forced to work.

640
00:32:20,285 --> 00:32:22,475
They're not able to interact
with the kids to the same level.

641
00:32:22,625 --> 00:32:25,475
They're not feeling fulfilled
from a workplace standpoint.

642
00:32:25,835 --> 00:32:31,025
Um, and so I feel like it broken
money is really sapping, uh, our

643
00:32:31,025 --> 00:32:32,465
ability to show up authentically.

644
00:32:32,555 --> 00:32:33,515
Anja: This is where Bitcoin is.

645
00:32:33,515 --> 00:32:33,815
Great.

646
00:32:34,535 --> 00:32:34,715
Totally.

647
00:32:36,875 --> 00:32:42,155
Mm. But I saw you recently
tweeted about an elaborate scam.

648
00:32:42,215 --> 00:32:45,245
And I, this is something as well
that I'm really passionate about,

649
00:32:45,635 --> 00:32:49,175
especially because Australia in
particular is really vulnerable to

650
00:32:49,175 --> 00:32:54,245
being, um, it's like a target country
for a lot of scammers overseas.

651
00:32:54,965 --> 00:32:55,655
We've got money.

652
00:32:56,435 --> 00:33:00,785
Um, we're also very, um,
trusting as a nation.

653
00:33:01,145 --> 00:33:08,615
We're used to having, you know, third
parties, uh, babysit our money for us.

654
00:33:08,795 --> 00:33:14,165
Um, yeah, so it's just, it's, it's, I
wanna talk about this, what happened,

655
00:33:15,035 --> 00:33:15,395
Seb: so.

656
00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:18,450
Oh man, it's the complexity.

657
00:33:18,450 --> 00:33:21,240
These scams these days,
I'm, I'm blown away with.

658
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:26,460
And essentially this guy reached
out and he was just like, EB, I work

659
00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:28,500
for Deutsche  Bank and Des Bank.

660
00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:34,440
We want to kind of really direct energy
towards the Web3 crypto Bitcoin space.

661
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,210
And I'm wondering if you wanted to come on
and do a podcast, Bitcoin versus crypto.

662
00:33:39,330 --> 00:33:42,480
And so I was just like, I'm all
for defending Bitcoin in the whole

663
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:44,160
Bitcoin versus crypto conversation.

664
00:33:44,340 --> 00:33:46,380
So I was just like,
I'll absolutely jump on.

665
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,040
And so he ended up adding
me to a telegram group.

666
00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:55,110
Now this Telegram group,
uh, it turns out was, uh.

667
00:33:55,740 --> 00:34:00,180
More of a discussion around
how Deutsche Bank want to

668
00:34:00,270 --> 00:34:02,790
create a whole Bitcoin academy.

669
00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:08,460
And they ended up having, supposedly
the CISO, which if I remember correctly,

670
00:34:08,460 --> 00:34:13,770
was saying like the Chief Innovative
Solutions Officer or something of, um,

671
00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:15,420
if I remember correctly, it was PayPal.

672
00:34:15,570 --> 00:34:19,440
And then they also had the
Chief Product Strategy officer

673
00:34:19,770 --> 00:34:23,850
of um, uh, Coinbase and Visa.

674
00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:27,390
And so I was like, whoa, these are
such like heavy hitting individuals.

675
00:34:27,630 --> 00:34:29,130
I feel really honored to be in this room.

676
00:34:29,130 --> 00:34:31,680
But I was like, why am I in this
room with these like really,

677
00:34:31,710 --> 00:34:33,000
really heavy hitting individuals?

678
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,100
And I'm just like, said
Bunny, who wrote a book?

679
00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:39,570
And so I'm looking at this and
that was the first red flag.

680
00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:42,540
The first red flag was why have
I always of a sudden been put

681
00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:44,580
in this, in this telegram group?

682
00:34:44,850 --> 00:34:46,200
So in hindsight.

683
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,750
What that was was kinda like social proof.

684
00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:51,720
It's trying to make it look like,
because there are some really

685
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:54,900
heavy hitting individuals in here,
there's authenticity to this.

686
00:34:54,990 --> 00:34:56,730
So I just assumed they
were the legitimate people.

687
00:34:56,730 --> 00:34:59,160
Obviously it turns out later that
they were not the legitimate people.

688
00:34:59,550 --> 00:35:02,970
Um, so we started having this kind of
conversation back and forth and then

689
00:35:02,970 --> 00:35:04,620
all of a sudden the poll shifted.

690
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,910
It shifted from Bitcoin versus
crypto to Seb, can you talk about

691
00:35:08,910 --> 00:35:10,170
your experience in startups?

692
00:35:10,170 --> 00:35:14,430
And I was like, that's not really my area
of expertise, but for sure I can, I can

693
00:35:14,430 --> 00:35:15,660
talk about my experience in startups.

694
00:35:15,660 --> 00:35:19,590
I've been involved in a few different
startups and they sent over kind of 21

695
00:35:19,590 --> 00:35:24,870
questions around Bitcoin startups and
what's it like in Bitcoin startup culture.

696
00:35:25,620 --> 00:35:28,230
So I spent a few days, like three
or four days really thinking about

697
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:31,920
these questions, really jotting down
my thoughts, putting together so

698
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,490
that I could at least try and give
the best answers to these questions.

699
00:35:35,940 --> 00:35:40,350
And then on the day of the podcast,
I jump on the call with this guy

700
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:44,550
and this guy, he doesn't have his
camera on, he's got a picture up.

701
00:35:46,350 --> 00:35:46,980
Immediately.

702
00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:51,690
He's like, so if this podcast
goes well said, we'd love to

703
00:35:51,690 --> 00:35:53,550
offer you a job at Deutsche Bank.

704
00:35:53,730 --> 00:35:55,920
And I'm standing there, I'm like, what?

705
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:56,850
I'm so confused.

706
00:35:56,850 --> 00:36:01,020
Like we're, we're doing a podcast
and I'm sure Deutsche Bank, they're

707
00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:04,290
one of the, I don't know, the top
five banks, I assume globally.

708
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:08,370
Like they have no way, they're just gonna
be like hiring people willy-nilly just

709
00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:09,720
because you're on a podcast with them.

710
00:36:09,930 --> 00:36:14,310
So I felt, uh, my, I would say my Spidey
senses were really starting to tingle

711
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:17,430
at this point because I was just like,
I've noticed I'm in a telegram group with

712
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:18,990
all of these high flying individuals.

713
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,070
Um, I'm now on a podcast with
this guy, but he's not even

714
00:36:23,070 --> 00:36:24,090
talking about the podcast.

715
00:36:24,090 --> 00:36:26,910
He's trying to potentially offer
me a job from Deutsche Bank.

716
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:31,260
And then he says, okay, um,
I'd like to move over to the

717
00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:32,730
podcast recording software.

718
00:36:33,090 --> 00:36:34,560
Can you go to this website?

719
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,730
And it was called, I think it
was called Jandi, J-A-N-D-I.

720
00:36:38,940 --> 00:36:41,190
And he was like, oh, it's a Chinese, um.

721
00:36:41,655 --> 00:36:46,305
Podcast recording software like Riverside,
uh, and you just need to sign up.

722
00:36:46,575 --> 00:36:49,935
And so I was like, okay,
I, I'll jump onto there.

723
00:36:49,935 --> 00:36:52,725
And he was like, yeah, I'm in Hong
Kong, so this is the one that we use.

724
00:36:52,725 --> 00:36:53,715
I'm in Deutschebank, Hong Kong.

725
00:36:53,715 --> 00:36:55,725
So I was like, okay, this
kind of semi makes sense.

726
00:36:56,085 --> 00:36:59,985
And so I go to sign up and it says
it, it says like technical error.

727
00:37:00,615 --> 00:37:01,605
And so I let him know.

728
00:37:01,605 --> 00:37:03,855
I'm just like, Hey, this is kind of
technical error going on right now.

729
00:37:03,855 --> 00:37:05,595
And he was like, oh, I'll just
speak to the technical team.

730
00:37:05,985 --> 00:37:09,795
And he spends a few minutes away and then
he comes back and he was just like, oh,

731
00:37:09,795 --> 00:37:11,505
I, we dunno what the technical error is.

732
00:37:11,745 --> 00:37:15,075
You can just use the last person
who we recorded a podcast with.

733
00:37:15,465 --> 00:37:17,205
I'll just give you his credentials.

734
00:37:17,205 --> 00:37:21,465
So they gave me just a random person's
email and password and immediately I was

735
00:37:21,465 --> 00:37:25,785
like, I'm 99% sure this is a, a scam now.

736
00:37:26,295 --> 00:37:29,175
And there was a part of me that was
like, I'm just gonna continue on

737
00:37:29,175 --> 00:37:31,515
a little bit further to understand
like what it is that they're doing.

738
00:37:31,935 --> 00:37:37,905
And so I logged in and then it says, okay,
you need to download this software and.

739
00:37:38,745 --> 00:37:40,665
When you go and check the
software, it's just like, oh, it

740
00:37:40,665 --> 00:37:42,345
needs access to all your files.

741
00:37:42,345 --> 00:37:44,055
It needs access to all of your calendar.

742
00:37:44,055 --> 00:37:45,675
It needs access to all your notes.

743
00:37:45,975 --> 00:37:48,165
And I just said to him, I was
just like, Hey buddy, I, I think

744
00:37:48,525 --> 00:37:51,975
this software seems very, I'm not
going to install this software.

745
00:37:52,515 --> 00:37:55,545
And he was like, um, let me see
if there's another option and I'll

746
00:37:55,545 --> 00:37:57,135
go speak to the technical team.

747
00:37:57,135 --> 00:37:57,975
And I was like, okay.

748
00:37:58,365 --> 00:38:02,505
And he went away to the technical team
and I looked on his Twitter account

749
00:38:02,715 --> 00:38:07,275
from the guy that had messaged me
and it said, Hey, I've been work.

750
00:38:07,305 --> 00:38:11,475
Well it said, I've been working in,
uh, for Des Bank for four years, but

751
00:38:11,475 --> 00:38:14,685
when I'd asked him at the very start
of the, the recording, so how long

752
00:38:14,685 --> 00:38:15,645
have you been working at Des Bank?

753
00:38:15,645 --> 00:38:17,715
He was like, I've been working
there for like three or four months.

754
00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:21,075
And so I'm like, things are
really starting to not add up.

755
00:38:21,375 --> 00:38:26,685
And all of a sudden I rec, I, I, I
reckon he knew that I was on term, I

756
00:38:26,685 --> 00:38:28,185
wasn't going to install the software.

757
00:38:28,305 --> 00:38:31,905
I started to ask kind of more questions
and then the Zoom call just dropped.

758
00:38:32,625 --> 00:38:36,975
It dropped and then I went
onto, uh, the chat on Twitter

759
00:38:37,335 --> 00:38:39,015
and his chat had been deleted.

760
00:38:39,345 --> 00:38:43,875
I go onto his page and I start scrolling
down the page, and after about 20, 30

761
00:38:43,875 --> 00:38:46,155
posts, it's a completely different person.

762
00:38:46,365 --> 00:38:49,875
It's in Mandarin or some other
Asian language, and so you can

763
00:38:49,875 --> 00:38:54,765
see that what happens is they
buy some random Twitter account.

764
00:38:55,305 --> 00:38:58,425
They give a persona,
Hey, I work for DEU Bank.

765
00:38:58,425 --> 00:38:59,325
I do this, this, and this.

766
00:38:59,325 --> 00:39:02,055
They post a few posts because most
people are not gonna scroll down

767
00:39:02,055 --> 00:39:03,975
their page, so it gives credibility.

768
00:39:04,485 --> 00:39:08,895
And I think the thing that kind of sw uh,
kind of like confused me is that he was

769
00:39:08,895 --> 00:39:14,205
followed by 10 to 20 other Bitcoiners that
I know that work in the Bitcoin space.

770
00:39:14,475 --> 00:39:16,335
So I was like, well, there
must be validity here.

771
00:39:16,635 --> 00:39:19,815
But now what I'm recognizing is
that he usually probably goes

772
00:39:19,815 --> 00:39:20,955
and follows these individuals.

773
00:39:20,955 --> 00:39:22,305
He's doing the same thing to them.

774
00:39:22,575 --> 00:39:27,435
And so, uh, ultimately this was just
some elaborate way to get access to

775
00:39:27,435 --> 00:39:31,575
your laptop, to be able to then probably
go scan your laptop, see if they can

776
00:39:31,575 --> 00:39:35,505
find 12, 24 word, seed phrase, and then
just go and drain your Bitcoin wallet.

777
00:39:35,865 --> 00:39:40,155
And they realized very quickly that,
uh, after I'd been on the call, I wasn't

778
00:39:40,155 --> 00:39:43,665
really complying, I wasn't downloading the
software, I wasn't allowing them access to

779
00:39:43,665 --> 00:39:46,485
my files, but to me it just blows me away.

780
00:39:46,485 --> 00:39:52,395
Like these people spent two weeks building
this, uh, building this relationship

781
00:39:52,395 --> 00:39:54,825
with me and kinda leading me on.

782
00:39:55,185 --> 00:39:58,005
And I would say I'm relatively.

783
00:39:58,950 --> 00:40:02,910
Tech savvy and I'm able to
recognize when I'm being played.

784
00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:08,460
And although there was a lot of red flags,
I, it wasn't until the actual dare the

785
00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:10,980
call that I realized that this was a scam.

786
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:14,490
And so I think about the boomer
generation, I think about individuals

787
00:40:14,490 --> 00:40:18,990
that aren't as tech savvy, and I can
see they would so easily just install

788
00:40:18,990 --> 00:40:23,310
software and just click yes, yes,
approve like all permissions so it

789
00:40:23,310 --> 00:40:24,600
can go and access all your files.

790
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,390
And then if they had any sensitive
information, that sensitive

791
00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:29,070
information is gone immediately.

792
00:40:29,070 --> 00:40:30,420
They've lost their Bitcoin immediately.

793
00:40:30,420 --> 00:40:33,570
They've had lost access to their
email accounts and and whatnot.

794
00:40:33,570 --> 00:40:36,780
So it makes me feel very sad that
the world we live in is such a,

795
00:40:37,170 --> 00:40:39,750
uh, it's lost that trustworthiness.

796
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:41,010
We can't just trust people.

797
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,230
And, um, I'm glad I managed to capture it.

798
00:40:43,230 --> 00:40:46,590
I'm glad nothing happened, but
I'm, I'm finishing up just a little

799
00:40:46,590 --> 00:40:49,290
article explaining what happened
in a little more detail and the

800
00:40:49,290 --> 00:40:53,310
steps so that people can hopefully
catch on if it's happening to them.

801
00:40:54,075 --> 00:40:54,615
Anja: Yeah.

802
00:40:54,615 --> 00:40:58,575
And where's that article going
to be available on X or Substack?

803
00:40:59,085 --> 00:41:01,275
Seb: Yeah, I'll, I'll post it on X. Um,

804
00:41:01,305 --> 00:41:01,575
Anja: okay.

805
00:41:01,845 --> 00:41:04,155
Seb: I'll almost like post it on
X and I'll, I'll probably post it

806
00:41:04,155 --> 00:41:05,775
on my own website, said bunny.com.

807
00:41:06,735 --> 00:41:11,355
Speaker 4: Need a way to sign, verify
and secure your Bitcoin Australia's

808
00:41:11,355 --> 00:41:12,945
one-stop shop for Bitcoiners.

809
00:41:13,095 --> 00:41:17,535
Has you covered from signing
devices, nodes, and backup solutions?

810
00:41:17,835 --> 00:41:22,860
To bid access day decor and
apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au.

811
00:41:26,415 --> 00:41:27,075
Anja: Nice.

812
00:41:27,075 --> 00:41:27,465
Nice.

813
00:41:27,495 --> 00:41:27,885
Okay.

814
00:41:27,885 --> 00:41:29,835
Yeah, that is just really scary.

815
00:41:30,105 --> 00:41:34,065
But then I thought, you know, as a
kid who used to squirrel money away,

816
00:41:34,065 --> 00:41:37,005
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't leave
any seed phrases on your laptop.

817
00:41:38,385 --> 00:41:41,835
Seb: Uh, I only use hot wallets on
my laptop and, uh, yeah, I keep all

818
00:41:41,835 --> 00:41:45,075
my seed phrases and just a note,
a sticky note on my laptop screen.

819
00:41:45,345 --> 00:41:45,855
Anja: Love it.

820
00:41:46,215 --> 00:41:49,443
Um, I wanted to talk a little
bit more about your book as well.

821
00:41:49,443 --> 00:41:50,373
I haven't read it yet.

822
00:41:50,373 --> 00:41:51,363
It's on my list.

823
00:41:51,753 --> 00:41:55,053
Um, but what has, how has
it been received so far?

824
00:41:55,923 --> 00:42:01,863
Seb: Honestly, I, I, I'm just blown
away with one this community and

825
00:42:01,863 --> 00:42:04,893
two, how, how should I say this?

826
00:42:05,643 --> 00:42:09,183
I, the, I, I never, and this may
sound a lot, I never expected

827
00:42:09,183 --> 00:42:10,083
that I'd ever write a book.

828
00:42:10,203 --> 00:42:12,663
Like I, I dropped outta
school when I was like.

829
00:42:13,188 --> 00:42:18,348
13, 14 years old, and I dropped out
of English when I was 12 years old.

830
00:42:18,768 --> 00:42:20,988
And English was never my thing.

831
00:42:21,498 --> 00:42:24,438
And I, I think it wasn't my thing
because I never really found my

832
00:42:24,438 --> 00:42:28,368
way of expressing myself through
language, through the written language.

833
00:42:28,758 --> 00:42:31,638
I found myself expressing
myself in the form of sports.

834
00:42:31,638 --> 00:42:33,918
And so I spent my life in the
mountains, mountain biking.

835
00:42:34,338 --> 00:42:38,478
So when the pandemic hit, I'd had
all of these years of accumulation

836
00:42:38,478 --> 00:42:41,418
of being curious about the financial
markets and macroeconomics.

837
00:42:41,598 --> 00:42:43,608
But I'd never really shared
any of this information.

838
00:42:43,878 --> 00:42:47,538
And so I started writing at the side
of the pandemic, and people just seemed

839
00:42:47,538 --> 00:42:51,828
to resonate with these ideas about how
does money impact us as individuals?

840
00:42:51,888 --> 00:42:53,568
How does it impact the family unit?

841
00:42:53,808 --> 00:42:55,578
And really speaking to the lay person.

842
00:42:55,998 --> 00:42:59,568
And so I kind of fell into
this world of writing.

843
00:42:59,808 --> 00:43:03,198
It didn't come from a place of practice,
it came from a place of simply wanting to

844
00:43:03,198 --> 00:43:08,463
get out what I'm noticing and what I'm,
uh, feeling and what I am, uh, kind of.

845
00:43:09,558 --> 00:43:12,258
Connecting the dots between
these various disparate ideas,

846
00:43:12,258 --> 00:43:15,798
whether it's macroeconomics or
psychology, trauma, money and such.

847
00:43:16,308 --> 00:43:19,818
And I never in a million years
expected it to do what it did.

848
00:43:19,818 --> 00:43:23,208
I never expected it to be like a
number one bestseller globally on

849
00:43:23,538 --> 00:43:27,198
kind of, uh, across all of its topic
platforms on a, on Amazon and such.

850
00:43:27,288 --> 00:43:29,568
And so it's just been such
an incredible journey.

851
00:43:29,988 --> 00:43:33,168
Um, and yeah, overall I just
feel really, really grateful.

852
00:43:33,198 --> 00:43:35,658
I feel really grateful to have this
opportunity to be able to jump on these

853
00:43:35,658 --> 00:43:39,348
podcasts, share my perspective, meet
really fascinating individuals and

854
00:43:39,348 --> 00:43:41,478
have conversations about these topics.

855
00:43:42,978 --> 00:43:43,038
Anja: Yeah.

856
00:43:43,038 --> 00:43:44,538
I love your writing style.

857
00:43:44,538 --> 00:43:47,538
I, I like, this is the
beautiful thing about books.

858
00:43:47,538 --> 00:43:50,028
Every book that I've read, I feel
like I get to really know the

859
00:43:50,028 --> 00:43:51,768
soul of the person writing it.

860
00:43:52,008 --> 00:43:55,908
Um, and yeah, it's very, it's very kind.

861
00:43:55,908 --> 00:43:59,298
There's a lot of kindness in the way
that you relay this information and

862
00:43:59,298 --> 00:44:03,633
you don't make the reader feel stupid
for not know, knowing something.

863
00:44:03,963 --> 00:44:07,353
Um, I feel like that really
stands out in your writing style.

864
00:44:07,713 --> 00:44:14,033
Um, but what would you say, like,
which part of the book , creates,

865
00:44:14,033 --> 00:44:15,563
like the most impact do you think?

866
00:44:16,703 --> 00:44:17,003
Seb: Hmm.

867
00:44:17,693 --> 00:44:18,623
That's a really good question.

868
00:44:18,863 --> 00:44:24,083
And again, I haven't been, you're asking
questions that I haven't heard before.

869
00:44:24,203 --> 00:44:25,523
And so it's interesting.

870
00:44:25,523 --> 00:44:27,113
It makes my mind go into different places.

871
00:44:27,563 --> 00:44:32,888
I would say that there's like a core
thread throughout the book, and the

872
00:44:32,888 --> 00:44:35,708
core thread throughout the book is
that everything is downstream of money.

873
00:44:36,188 --> 00:44:40,148
And I think that a lot of individuals,
when we speak to them, uh, when you speak

874
00:44:40,148 --> 00:44:42,908
to your parents, when you speak to your
friends, when you speak to your work

875
00:44:42,908 --> 00:44:47,888
colleagues, people never really stop and
ask, what is this thing called money?

876
00:44:48,068 --> 00:44:52,088
And how is money actually impacting
me as an individual and how I show up?

877
00:44:52,268 --> 00:44:56,378
And so what I really wanted to try
and articulate in the book is just how

878
00:44:56,378 --> 00:44:58,958
impactful money is, whether that is.

879
00:44:59,203 --> 00:45:03,403
On a psychological level and us showing
up, whether it's on a familial level

880
00:45:03,553 --> 00:45:06,763
and how we kind of raise kids and
our relationship with our partner,

881
00:45:06,973 --> 00:45:11,413
whether it's on a consumerist level,
on a political level, an environmental

882
00:45:11,413 --> 00:45:14,623
level, I think that money really
is at the root of a lot of the

883
00:45:14,623 --> 00:45:16,843
challenges at which we're facing.

884
00:45:17,083 --> 00:45:22,603
And I think a lot of us ju don't
necessarily quite grok or grasp

885
00:45:22,603 --> 00:45:24,043
just how important money is.

886
00:45:24,043 --> 00:45:28,933
So I'm sure like even on your own
experience, um, your perception of money

887
00:45:28,933 --> 00:45:33,313
has probably shifted from getting into
Bitcoin from what it was when you were a

888
00:45:33,313 --> 00:45:35,203
kid, even through most of your adult life.

889
00:45:36,533 --> 00:45:37,823
Anja: It absolutely has.

890
00:45:37,853 --> 00:45:43,463
And my first memory of money was
money being used as a store of value.

891
00:45:43,823 --> 00:45:49,343
Um, so that's kind of what
I thought as, as a child.

892
00:45:49,343 --> 00:45:52,313
I used to think, you know, when I
first came across physical money,

893
00:45:52,313 --> 00:45:54,983
I, I thought this is something
precious that needs to be saved,

894
00:45:54,983 --> 00:45:57,383
that needs to be kept for future use.

895
00:45:57,653 --> 00:46:01,193
It's not a property that
you just kind of dispose of.

896
00:46:01,553 --> 00:46:06,533
Um, and then growing up and going
through my entire work life and as

897
00:46:06,533 --> 00:46:10,493
an adult realizing that you kind
of have to invest to hold onto

898
00:46:10,493 --> 00:46:12,383
your money because of inflation.

899
00:46:12,893 --> 00:46:19,163
And then Bitcoin comes in and kind
of restores what I feel like my

900
00:46:19,163 --> 00:46:22,793
first impression of money was that
it should be a store of value.

901
00:46:24,263 --> 00:46:25,373
Seb: Oh, that is so cool.

902
00:46:25,373 --> 00:46:26,603
And it's.

903
00:46:27,683 --> 00:46:30,788
I, I just find this, it's so
fascinating because I think at its

904
00:46:30,788 --> 00:46:36,218
core we have this desire from such a
young age to think about the future,

905
00:46:36,428 --> 00:46:41,288
think about what is possible, and
hopefully save to build that future.

906
00:46:41,288 --> 00:46:44,288
And it's, and it makes me feel sad
when I think about what's been stripped

907
00:46:44,288 --> 00:46:48,458
from society, which is where when money
no longer holds value, people stop

908
00:46:48,458 --> 00:46:52,898
thinking about those things and they
start to just exist in the moment.

909
00:46:53,138 --> 00:46:57,008
And although I obviously very much support
the spiritual side of things when it comes

910
00:46:57,008 --> 00:47:00,698
to like being present, when I say exist in
the moment, what I'm more meaning is that.

911
00:47:00,988 --> 00:47:05,038
People are struggling so much that all
they're doing is thinking about, oh my

912
00:47:05,038 --> 00:47:06,598
God, I need to meet these needs now.

913
00:47:06,598 --> 00:47:08,128
And they're not thinking about the future.

914
00:47:08,518 --> 00:47:12,028
There's a book that I recently read
called The History of the American

915
00:47:12,028 --> 00:47:17,128
People, and it discusses, um, the
Mayflower, the first people that

916
00:47:17,158 --> 00:47:19,768
came from the UK landed in America.

917
00:47:19,978 --> 00:47:23,098
And then each chapter is basically,
if I remember correctly, it's about

918
00:47:23,098 --> 00:47:26,818
a 20, 30 year period and then it
goes all the way to present day.

919
00:47:26,818 --> 00:47:29,788
So what is it from around the 16th
century, all the way up to present day.

920
00:47:30,238 --> 00:47:34,618
And one of the things it talks about
is how during like the frontier, uh,

921
00:47:34,648 --> 00:47:40,408
period, when the obviously the, the
Brits came over to the US and then

922
00:47:40,408 --> 00:47:44,008
you kind of had these generations
that were kind of at the front, uh,

923
00:47:44,363 --> 00:47:46,948
uh, mind block on the, the term, uh.

924
00:47:47,348 --> 00:47:50,498
You had these kind of like these
individuals that really were there

925
00:47:50,498 --> 00:47:52,238
exploring this newfound land.

926
00:47:52,598 --> 00:47:55,778
They were showing up, exploring
this newfound land and figuring

927
00:47:55,778 --> 00:47:57,458
out, okay, how do we thrive?

928
00:47:57,818 --> 00:48:01,838
And one of the things it mentions
in a chapter is that a week's worth

929
00:48:01,838 --> 00:48:04,568
of work would buy you an acre.

930
00:48:04,958 --> 00:48:11,948
And so in a whole year you could have
50 to 80 acres of the best land that

931
00:48:11,948 --> 00:48:14,918
you're then able to build a house on.

932
00:48:14,918 --> 00:48:20,408
You're able to grow your own food and now
to be able to own a house is a privilege.

933
00:48:20,828 --> 00:48:24,848
Most of my friends don't own houses, and
if they do own something, they own an

934
00:48:24,848 --> 00:48:29,258
apartment and they feel like, oh my God,
I'm so privileged to own this apartment.

935
00:48:29,258 --> 00:48:33,998
When in reality, up until about 150
years ago, everybody owned a house.

936
00:48:34,403 --> 00:48:36,713
Everyone had a house, everyone was able to

937
00:48:36,713 --> 00:48:37,103
Anja: show up.

938
00:48:37,103 --> 00:48:37,433
And Big house too.

939
00:48:38,123 --> 00:48:39,413
Seb: And a big house a hundred percent.

940
00:48:39,413 --> 00:48:42,983
And so it's just, I find it really
interesting that today people can't

941
00:48:42,983 --> 00:48:45,593
really think about the future because
it's just completely outta touch.

942
00:48:45,743 --> 00:48:47,273
Anja: Yeah, I noticed that a lot.

943
00:48:47,273 --> 00:48:53,393
I noticed that our standards as a society,
society have just dropped so low that you

944
00:48:53,393 --> 00:48:57,773
kind of have to feel like you're lucky if
you own a tiny little house, and you're

945
00:48:57,773 --> 00:49:03,083
lucky if you get, you know, $600,000 worth
of savings for your inner superannuation.

946
00:49:03,383 --> 00:49:08,333
We have that system in Australia,
which, you know, the, the industry

947
00:49:08,333 --> 00:49:13,043
says it's kind of the amount that you
need to retire on, but in real reality,

948
00:49:13,313 --> 00:49:16,403
you can't retire on that much unless
you're planning to die very soon.

949
00:49:16,703 --> 00:49:21,653
And, and it's just, yeah, I, I,
it's interesting the way that things

950
00:49:21,653 --> 00:49:27,623
are being pushed down upon us to
kind of make us satisfied with less

951
00:49:27,623 --> 00:49:29,428
and feel grateful for having less.

952
00:49:29,723 --> 00:49:32,213
And I wanted to also touch on something.

953
00:49:32,213 --> 00:49:33,773
I wanna know what you think about.

954
00:49:34,493 --> 00:49:39,713
Sometimes like when it comes to saving
money, um, some economists will use

955
00:49:39,863 --> 00:49:44,903
terms like hoarding and it's a very
inflammatory term for something

956
00:49:44,903 --> 00:49:46,553
that I feel like is human nature.

957
00:49:46,553 --> 00:49:49,703
It's very natural to save
money for the future.

958
00:49:50,153 --> 00:49:54,653
Um, and yeah, I feel like that
term hoarding also kind of comes

959
00:49:54,653 --> 00:49:56,513
up in Bitcoin a bit as well.

960
00:49:56,903 --> 00:49:59,273
So what do you think is
the psychology of that?

961
00:49:59,393 --> 00:50:02,783
Seb: I'm gonna like try and connect
two dots that I may do poorly, but

962
00:50:02,783 --> 00:50:03,983
we'll see if we can connect them.

963
00:50:03,983 --> 00:50:09,743
I read a tweet the other day and I'll
type back hoarding in a second that

964
00:50:09,743 --> 00:50:18,263
looked at how innovation tends to, or
it is a, a innovation in the higher

965
00:50:18,263 --> 00:50:21,353
latitudes and the lower latitudes.

966
00:50:21,443 --> 00:50:25,463
So not around the equatorial nations,
but more in kind of the north or the

967
00:50:25,463 --> 00:50:30,563
south in the colder climates tends
to be far greater than innovation

968
00:50:30,563 --> 00:50:32,753
around the equatorial nations.

969
00:50:33,083 --> 00:50:34,883
And I thought this was really
interesting because what it

970
00:50:34,883 --> 00:50:39,143
discussed is that in colder climates
you have to plan for the future.

971
00:50:39,623 --> 00:50:43,493
You have to think about, okay, we're about
to go into six months of winter here.

972
00:50:43,733 --> 00:50:46,433
If I don't have food
reserves, I'm gonna die.

973
00:50:47,513 --> 00:50:49,703
In the equatorial
nations, that's not true.

974
00:50:49,913 --> 00:50:53,693
There's growing year round, you
tend to have access to fruit and

975
00:50:53,693 --> 00:50:57,053
vegetables, and so there's no n
need to think about the future.

976
00:50:57,353 --> 00:51:01,703
And so I think that when we think about
hoarding, um, we, there's this kind

977
00:51:01,703 --> 00:51:05,003
of, this negative association as you're
mentioning, where a lot of economists

978
00:51:05,003 --> 00:51:10,643
say no, if we have a deflationary uh,
currency, what that means is prices

979
00:51:10,643 --> 00:51:14,483
will be falling, which means our save,
uh, our, our purchasing power increases

980
00:51:14,483 --> 00:51:18,143
over time, which is going to incentivize
us to hoard as opposed to spend.

981
00:51:18,443 --> 00:51:20,513
And that could be hugely destabilizing.

982
00:51:20,813 --> 00:51:24,053
Now, I agree that it is destabilizing.

983
00:51:24,688 --> 00:51:29,368
But it is only destabilizing when we're
in a heavily indebt nation because if

984
00:51:29,368 --> 00:51:34,198
all of a sudden these big corporations
who they're reliant on income, this,

985
00:51:34,198 --> 00:51:37,858
all of a sudden people stop spending
to the same extent that they were and

986
00:51:37,858 --> 00:51:41,518
income less income is coming in for
these various corporations, then there's

987
00:51:41,668 --> 00:51:43,288
those corporations are gonna go under.

988
00:51:43,468 --> 00:51:47,098
And so yes, it's hugely destabilizing
because we could see a massive

989
00:51:47,098 --> 00:51:51,298
swath of defaults, this wave of
defaults washing through society.

990
00:51:52,043 --> 00:51:56,333
But the positive side effect of that is
that it would wipe clean a lot of the

991
00:51:56,333 --> 00:51:59,873
fiscal irresponsibility and a lot of the
corporations that have borrowed beyond

992
00:51:59,873 --> 00:52:03,473
their means and are no longer able to
service their debt service payments.

993
00:52:03,713 --> 00:52:08,333
So I think that in a world, um, that
we're to actually align with reality,

994
00:52:08,333 --> 00:52:12,173
as Jeff Booth talks about, prices
should be falling because naturally

995
00:52:12,173 --> 00:52:13,678
as individuals we want to innovate.

996
00:52:14,233 --> 00:52:17,113
We want to be able to increase
efficiency and productivity.

997
00:52:17,293 --> 00:52:20,443
We want to be able to get more
for less through technology

998
00:52:20,443 --> 00:52:21,703
and our various services.

999
00:52:21,973 --> 00:52:26,023
And so the analogy I always like to
give is like Netflix versus Blockbuster.

1000
00:52:26,413 --> 00:52:29,833
Like you used to have to go drive
down to Blockbuster, spend 30

1001
00:52:29,833 --> 00:52:32,203
minutes in Blockbuster figuring
out what you wanna watch.

1002
00:52:32,353 --> 00:52:33,313
You just have to drive home.

1003
00:52:33,313 --> 00:52:36,643
You'd watch the movie, you'd drive back
to Blockbuster, drop the movie off.

1004
00:52:36,853 --> 00:52:37,723
Oh, it's scratched.

1005
00:52:37,723 --> 00:52:41,323
So you had to go and pay a fine because
you scratched the CD and then you had

1006
00:52:41,323 --> 00:52:42,523
to drive all the way back home again.

1007
00:52:42,523 --> 00:52:47,623
And you think about all of the time,
the energy, the gas expense, the cost

1008
00:52:47,623 --> 00:52:49,933
of the DVD to go and rent that thing.

1009
00:52:50,203 --> 00:52:54,163
And now for the, pretty much the same
price, you can get millions of movies

1010
00:52:54,163 --> 00:52:55,573
at your fingertips through Netflix.

1011
00:52:55,903 --> 00:53:00,733
And so technology should be driving down
prices and life should be getting easier.

1012
00:53:00,733 --> 00:53:03,673
But we are just not benefiting
from that experience.

1013
00:53:03,823 --> 00:53:06,973
And so ultimately, I think the
natural state of things is deflation.

1014
00:53:07,273 --> 00:53:07,993
Prices is falling.

1015
00:53:08,233 --> 00:53:08,983
That is not bad.

1016
00:53:09,983 --> 00:53:12,443
The problem is, it is bad
in an indebted nation.

1017
00:53:12,503 --> 00:53:14,153
That's, that's I think,
the differentiation.

1018
00:53:15,053 --> 00:53:20,393
Anja: I also wanna ask you about, like
during the pandemic, a lot of things

1019
00:53:20,453 --> 00:53:26,723
shifted culturally, especially like in the
corporate world, and you can really see

1020
00:53:26,723 --> 00:53:33,353
themes coming up about like quite quitting
and the productivity slowing down.

1021
00:53:33,683 --> 00:53:39,023
And I think a lot of that is tied to
potentially people seeing that, you

1022
00:53:39,023 --> 00:53:42,353
know, hard work no longer pays off.

1023
00:53:42,713 --> 00:53:47,213
Um, I don't know what it is like in
Canada, but in Australia even, you

1024
00:53:47,213 --> 00:53:50,843
know, if you're a high income earner,
you you're having some mortgage stress,

1025
00:53:50,843 --> 00:53:54,743
you're having some financial stress,
you pretty much can't live with any

1026
00:53:54,743 --> 00:53:58,163
of the major cities around Australia
unless you're earning over a hundred

1027
00:53:58,163 --> 00:54:00,923
thousand dollars as a single income.

1028
00:54:00,923 --> 00:54:04,193
And it's, it's, yeah.

1029
00:54:04,193 --> 00:54:07,763
I wonder if, if, do you think that's also
tied to the money printer where people

1030
00:54:07,763 --> 00:54:10,853
are just kind of like giving up, like
they know something is inherently wrong?

1031
00:54:11,708 --> 00:54:13,898
They can't necessarily
put their finger on it.

1032
00:54:14,618 --> 00:54:20,018
Seb: I absolutely, and and I think that
it also goes back to the maps we were

1033
00:54:20,018 --> 00:54:24,788
discussing earlier, whereas I think
the millennial generation has been

1034
00:54:24,788 --> 00:54:30,398
kind of sold this map, which is if you
go to higher education and you go and

1035
00:54:30,488 --> 00:54:33,848
get qualified, then you're gonna be
able to leave higher education, you're

1036
00:54:33,848 --> 00:54:35,378
gonna be able to get a well-paying job.

1037
00:54:35,648 --> 00:54:38,318
And through that well-paying job,
you're gonna be able to buy a house.

1038
00:54:38,558 --> 00:54:40,898
And when you buy a house, you
can kind of raise a family.

1039
00:54:41,228 --> 00:54:45,638
And what instead people have been so,
uh, kind of receiving is they're going

1040
00:54:45,638 --> 00:54:49,208
through higher education and it's
something like one third of the population

1041
00:54:49,208 --> 00:54:50,528
is going through higher education.

1042
00:54:50,678 --> 00:54:53,048
They're coming out that qualification.

1043
00:54:53,468 --> 00:54:55,178
There's almost no jobs.

1044
00:54:55,178 --> 00:54:56,708
It's like a desolate landscape.

1045
00:54:56,948 --> 00:55:00,158
And then even if they are getting a
job, there's so much competition for

1046
00:55:00,158 --> 00:55:05,348
these jobs that most people are going
through 10, 15, 20 different applications

1047
00:55:05,348 --> 00:55:06,728
getting rejected on most of them.

1048
00:55:07,058 --> 00:55:11,078
I think a lot of people have been sold,
especially the millennials and the

1049
00:55:11,078 --> 00:55:15,248
younger generations, they've been sold
this idea that, hey, if I, if I go to

1050
00:55:15,248 --> 00:55:18,788
higher education, I get a degree, I'm
gonna be able to come out, I'm gonna

1051
00:55:18,788 --> 00:55:22,118
be able to earn a decent income and be
able to buy a house and raise a family.

1052
00:55:22,388 --> 00:55:24,638
And they're realizing
that that's not the case.

1053
00:55:24,638 --> 00:55:28,298
It's not even, it's anywhere close to
what their parents were able to do.

1054
00:55:28,868 --> 00:55:33,908
And so I think that money is at the root
of that because the cost of living crisis

1055
00:55:33,908 --> 00:55:37,478
that we're facing, the average house
in North America in the seventies was

1056
00:55:37,478 --> 00:55:39,188
three times the average person's wage.

1057
00:55:39,458 --> 00:55:43,118
And now the average house is nine
times the average person's wage.

1058
00:55:43,418 --> 00:55:46,958
And in areas of high demand, I
dunno what it is in Byron, but

1059
00:55:46,958 --> 00:55:49,613
I'm sure I can guess it's probably
pretty similar to where I live.

1060
00:55:50,393 --> 00:55:54,143
And in Squamish here where
I live, the average income

1061
00:55:54,233 --> 00:55:56,963
is I believe $45,000 a year.

1062
00:55:57,413 --> 00:56:02,153
And the average house
is 1.6 to $2 million.

1063
00:56:02,393 --> 00:56:07,343
And so when you start looking at this,
you're just like, how that's, that's 15

1064
00:56:07,343 --> 00:56:09,203
to 20 times the average person's wage.

1065
00:56:09,203 --> 00:56:12,803
You're just like, how is anyone
gonna be able to afford these houses?

1066
00:56:13,253 --> 00:56:17,843
And what it means is that we have the
society that is disconnecting, you're

1067
00:56:17,843 --> 00:56:21,413
having this generation that's just
like, I'm not able to afford a house.

1068
00:56:21,413 --> 00:56:22,373
I'm not able to get ahead.

1069
00:56:22,583 --> 00:56:24,923
And so what, why am I doing this job?

1070
00:56:25,103 --> 00:56:27,413
This job isn't servicing,
serving, uh, serving me.

1071
00:56:27,503 --> 00:56:31,403
And so I think a lot of people are,
in many ways, we're having this

1072
00:56:31,403 --> 00:56:34,943
disconnect where people are hyper
fixated on the present because

1073
00:56:34,943 --> 00:56:36,023
they're simply trying to survive.

1074
00:56:36,263 --> 00:56:38,723
And in other ways they're
just like, what's the point?

1075
00:56:39,113 --> 00:56:39,773
What is the point?

1076
00:56:39,803 --> 00:56:41,423
And they're kind of like giving up almost.

1077
00:56:41,423 --> 00:56:45,443
And so I think that this quiet quitting
is definitely a reflection of broken

1078
00:56:45,443 --> 00:56:49,493
money because people are tired of
giving and giving and giving and giving

1079
00:56:49,703 --> 00:56:53,483
and not being able to afford, uh, a
lifestyle that's anywhere close to

1080
00:56:53,483 --> 00:56:54,683
what their parents were able to afford.

1081
00:56:55,108 --> 00:56:55,398
Anja: Yeah.

1082
00:56:56,483 --> 00:57:00,923
I have some girlfriends as well
who, um, are going through a bit

1083
00:57:00,923 --> 00:57:05,843
of a tough financial phase because,
uh, and it's interesting because

1084
00:57:06,233 --> 00:57:09,233
going back a few years ago, they
said they were very good with money.

1085
00:57:09,443 --> 00:57:12,743
They felt like they were good at saving,
they were good at investing, and now

1086
00:57:12,743 --> 00:57:14,453
just they're just falling behind.

1087
00:57:15,143 --> 00:57:18,713
And as a result, their
behavior has changed.

1088
00:57:19,013 --> 00:57:22,733
They actually tend to spend more and
shop more because they're trying to

1089
00:57:23,063 --> 00:57:26,663
make themselves feel better about
a dire situation that they're in.

1090
00:57:26,663 --> 00:57:30,863
So, and they're kind of aware of it as
well, like, but like, I just feel like

1091
00:57:30,863 --> 00:57:33,383
I can't do anything about it in a sense.

1092
00:57:33,473 --> 00:57:37,763
Like it's very, they feel
defeated and it's heartbreaking.

1093
00:57:38,678 --> 00:57:42,878
Seb: It's, it's devastating and, and I, I
used to work for this company as a retail

1094
00:57:42,878 --> 00:57:44,738
company which sell outdoor clothing.

1095
00:57:45,098 --> 00:57:48,488
And one of my colleagues, I
remember, he came in one day and

1096
00:57:48,488 --> 00:57:49,568
he was just like, you know what?

1097
00:57:50,078 --> 00:57:50,498
I'm done.

1098
00:57:50,498 --> 00:57:53,198
I can't be bothered to
try and save for a house.

1099
00:57:53,198 --> 00:57:54,758
I'm never gonna be able to afford a house.

1100
00:57:54,938 --> 00:58:00,008
If I've gotta save two, three, $400,000
to be able to go and put a down payment,

1101
00:58:00,038 --> 00:58:04,628
15, 20% down on a house, how am I
ever gonna be able to save that when

1102
00:58:04,628 --> 00:58:06,698
I'm earning 30, 40, $50,000 a year?

1103
00:58:06,698 --> 00:58:07,808
It's just not possible.

1104
00:58:08,483 --> 00:58:14,003
And what I noticed is that his mentality
shifted to more of this, like superficial,

1105
00:58:14,003 --> 00:58:18,083
he may look happy, he was going out
partying more, he was going out and maybe

1106
00:58:18,083 --> 00:58:20,903
spending more money on things that he
wouldn't have done previously because

1107
00:58:20,903 --> 00:58:22,373
he was trying to think about the future.

1108
00:58:22,643 --> 00:58:26,363
And so on the face of it, on
social media, life looks amazing.

1109
00:58:26,393 --> 00:58:29,303
He's doing all of these cool things,
but actually when you go and speak

1110
00:58:29,303 --> 00:58:31,493
to him, he was like super depressed.

1111
00:58:31,643 --> 00:58:34,313
And I think that this is kind of
the face of it with a lot of people.

1112
00:58:34,313 --> 00:58:36,353
And I think social media
doesn't help in that.

1113
00:58:36,833 --> 00:58:39,443
We tend to think that everyone
else has got it all figured out

1114
00:58:39,683 --> 00:58:42,353
because we're seeing these pictures
that, oh my God, life is amazing.

1115
00:58:42,353 --> 00:58:44,243
You're traveling the world, you're
doing this, you're doing that.

1116
00:58:44,513 --> 00:58:48,353
But I think a lot of people are worried
that yes, they're traveling the world

1117
00:58:48,353 --> 00:58:52,433
right now, but they're in their twenties,
their thirties, their forties, and

1118
00:58:52,433 --> 00:58:56,843
they have no savings or no security
for what the future may look like.

1119
00:58:57,083 --> 00:58:59,183
Uh, and I think that
scares a lot of people.

1120
00:58:59,213 --> 00:59:01,883
Anja: So do you think, like, you
know, if you're a young person

1121
00:59:01,883 --> 00:59:07,343
listening, is Bitcoin really the best
solution or are there other things.

1122
00:59:08,663 --> 00:59:09,503
Seb: I, I believe so.

1123
00:59:09,683 --> 00:59:12,473
And, uh, without getting like
too negative there, I think that

1124
00:59:12,773 --> 00:59:16,103
ultimately when I found Bitcoin and
most people, uh, what do they say?

1125
00:59:16,103 --> 00:59:19,133
They say You come for the gains
and you stay for the revolution.

1126
00:59:19,403 --> 00:59:22,793
I came into Bitcoin because I was
like, man, I need an asset that's

1127
00:59:22,793 --> 00:59:25,913
gonna help kind of float my portfolio,
push up my portfolio a little

1128
00:59:25,913 --> 00:59:27,323
bit, make life a little easier.

1129
00:59:27,653 --> 00:59:31,613
And I, I think a lot of us, when
we're honest with ourselves, Bitcoin

1130
00:59:31,613 --> 00:59:33,023
was a bit of like a lottery ticket.

1131
00:59:33,323 --> 00:59:36,623
We didn't quite understand it when we
first started saving and investing in it.

1132
00:59:36,893 --> 00:59:38,573
And so we were just like,
oh man, this thing's.

1133
00:59:38,803 --> 00:59:40,813
Done wild in the past,
maybe it can do it again.

1134
00:59:41,083 --> 00:59:44,563
But then when you start getting into
Bitcoin, you start recognizing just

1135
00:59:44,563 --> 00:59:49,423
how broken the monetary system is
and how Bitcoin, I truly believe

1136
00:59:49,423 --> 00:59:51,343
is the best form of money we have.

1137
00:59:51,613 --> 00:59:55,693
And so in the end, it's not
about Bitcoin, uh, constantly

1138
00:59:55,693 --> 00:59:57,943
pushing up your savings potential.

1139
00:59:58,018 --> 01:00:02,053
What I think it is about is that
how do we just create a system

1140
01:00:02,323 --> 01:00:04,693
where it's rules instead of rulers?

1141
01:00:04,723 --> 01:00:08,413
How do we create a system where we're
all playing on an equal playing field?

1142
01:00:08,743 --> 01:00:13,333
And as society thrives, as people
innovate, as we increase productivity and

1143
01:00:13,333 --> 01:00:15,403
efficiency, prices come down over time.

1144
01:00:15,643 --> 01:00:17,263
And I think that's what it
really, really is about.

1145
01:00:17,263 --> 01:00:22,393
And I think Bitcoin to me is, uh,
currently the, the best chance we

1146
01:00:22,393 --> 01:00:25,933
have at creating a system where
as a society, we can thrive more.

1147
01:00:26,203 --> 01:00:28,813
And it gets us to reflect a little more.

1148
01:00:28,813 --> 01:00:30,253
It gets us to think about the future.

1149
01:00:30,253 --> 01:00:33,463
It gets us to think about
building a world where we are

1150
01:00:33,463 --> 01:00:34,873
more collaborative and connected.

1151
01:00:34,873 --> 01:00:35,713
Because at the moment.

1152
01:00:36,063 --> 01:00:39,153
When money is breaking down, we're
becoming more and more disconnected

1153
01:00:39,483 --> 01:00:41,823
and hyper fixated on survival.

1154
01:00:42,618 --> 01:00:45,273
Anja: Mm. And second last question.

1155
01:00:45,813 --> 01:00:48,603
Do you think there are
ways for Bitcoin to fail?

1156
01:00:48,723 --> 01:00:51,423
Seb: I think that there's
no certainty in anything.

1157
01:00:51,663 --> 01:00:57,273
Um, and so being able to acknowledge
that, asking the question

1158
01:00:57,273 --> 01:00:58,683
like how could Bitcoin fail?

1159
01:00:58,743 --> 01:01:01,533
I would think that there's a
couple potential different ways.

1160
01:01:01,893 --> 01:01:09,683
I think one of them is as humans, we
struggle to think about the second, third,

1161
01:01:09,683 --> 01:01:11,993
fourth order effects of our actions.

1162
01:01:12,353 --> 01:01:16,643
And so I think that we may have
developers that go and push certain

1163
01:01:16,643 --> 01:01:23,153
changes to the code and we can't
comprehend just how people might, um,

1164
01:01:23,243 --> 01:01:28,103
interpret these changes and use Bitcoin
and it could lead to vulnerabilities

1165
01:01:28,103 --> 01:01:29,783
from a code security perspective.

1166
01:01:30,053 --> 01:01:31,163
Now, that is one way.

1167
01:01:31,553 --> 01:01:35,903
The other way that I could potentially
see Bitcoin failing is, and it may

1168
01:01:35,903 --> 01:01:38,573
fail in the short term, but may
recover in the long, long term, but

1169
01:01:38,573 --> 01:01:41,573
it would take a lot of years, is if.

1170
01:01:42,308 --> 01:01:47,168
More and more people are using traditional
financial products like ETFs to go and

1171
01:01:47,168 --> 01:01:51,038
purchase Bitcoin, like they go and buy
Bitcoin through ibit, BlackRock's, ibit.

1172
01:01:51,638 --> 01:01:55,418
What we'll see is a whole bunch of
capital flooding towards these ETFs,

1173
01:01:55,628 --> 01:02:00,308
the majority of Bitcoin being held
in these ETFs, and then if BlackRock

1174
01:02:00,398 --> 01:02:06,818
wanted to say, fork the code and create
a BlackRock Bitcoin that offers some

1175
01:02:06,818 --> 01:02:09,458
form of benefit to these various elites.

1176
01:02:09,908 --> 01:02:13,628
What they can give the
perception of is in the market.

1177
01:02:14,663 --> 01:02:19,103
If the people don't agree with a change
in Bitcoin's code and we were to have a

1178
01:02:19,103 --> 01:02:24,173
hard fork, they can choose to sell the
coin or the token that is not serving

1179
01:02:24,173 --> 01:02:26,603
them and hold onto the one that does.

1180
01:02:26,783 --> 01:02:30,683
We've seen this through various hard
forks over time, whether it's Bitcoin

1181
01:02:30,683 --> 01:02:34,103
cash, uh, BSV and such, uh, BCH.

1182
01:02:34,103 --> 01:02:35,243
I think that's just Bitcoin cash.

1183
01:02:35,513 --> 01:02:39,293
We've seen this time and time again where
people have chosen Bitcoin as opposed

1184
01:02:39,293 --> 01:02:41,213
to these other hard fought tokens.

1185
01:02:41,753 --> 01:02:46,493
But I think that if BlackRock own a
large portion of Bitcoin, what they

1186
01:02:46,493 --> 01:02:51,803
can do is they can sell off Bitcoin,
maintaining BlackRock Bitcoin, and it

1187
01:02:51,803 --> 01:02:55,223
gives the perception that the public
has chosen, they've chosen BlackRock

1188
01:02:55,373 --> 01:02:57,353
Bitcoin when reality is a facade.

1189
01:02:57,353 --> 01:02:57,683
Anja: Yeah.

1190
01:02:58,193 --> 01:03:02,993
Well, Bitcoin is hope, and part of
the reason I think we're both here is

1191
01:03:02,993 --> 01:03:07,613
because we want to kind of help spread
that hope to others through education.

1192
01:03:08,843 --> 01:03:11,123
So, yeah, thank you so
much for your insights.

1193
01:03:11,123 --> 01:03:16,223
I will drop your, you know, the
link to your, um, book in the show

1194
01:03:16,223 --> 01:03:19,883
notes as well as your X account
and anything else that you want.

1195
01:03:20,123 --> 01:03:23,798
But do you have any final thoughts that
you wanna share with the listeners?

1196
01:03:25,523 --> 01:03:27,953
Seb: I would honestly, I, I would
just say I, I really enjoyed this

1197
01:03:27,953 --> 01:03:31,913
conversation and, um, what the listeners
probably haven't heard is that we've

1198
01:03:31,913 --> 01:03:35,273
actually paused a bunch of times and
had amazing conversation midway through

1199
01:03:35,273 --> 01:03:38,603
the podcast, and, which is a start of
fun as well, which I really enjoyed.

1200
01:03:38,903 --> 01:03:40,523
I haven't done that before on a podcast.

1201
01:03:40,853 --> 01:03:44,873
And, um, no, I, I, I'm all for
education and I really appreciate

1202
01:03:44,873 --> 01:03:48,203
what you're doing and just sharing,
uh, different Bitcoin's voices.

1203
01:03:48,528 --> 01:03:52,283
I, I think if people want to learn
more about these topics, obviously

1204
01:03:52,283 --> 01:03:54,803
I've got beers for Bitcoin, I've
got the hidden cost of money.

1205
01:03:54,803 --> 01:03:59,363
Both those books are available,
um, on Amazon and such, but I never

1206
01:03:59,363 --> 01:04:01,133
want price to be a barrier to entry.

1207
01:04:01,133 --> 01:04:04,253
So if someone can't afford one of the
books, feel free to just reach out and I'm

1208
01:04:04,253 --> 01:04:06,443
always just send over a copy of the ebook.

1209
01:04:06,443 --> 01:04:09,173
But again, I just, I really
appreciate you having me on Anya.

1210
01:04:09,233 --> 01:04:12,923
And, um, yeah, if anyone wants to
find me, they can find me@setbunny.com

1211
01:04:12,983 --> 01:04:15,323
or set bunny, uh, on Twitter.

1212
01:04:16,283 --> 01:04:16,913
Anja: Excellent.

1213
01:04:16,913 --> 01:04:18,383
Thanks so much again for your time.

1214
01:04:18,383 --> 01:04:20,873
Speaker: Still here you
are one of the good ones.

1215
01:04:21,353 --> 01:04:23,993
We'll be back next week
with a brand new episode.

1216
01:04:24,353 --> 01:04:28,073
If you enjoy how we cut through
the noise, consider supporting us

1217
01:04:28,073 --> 01:04:30,323
directly via the Lightning QR code.

1218
01:04:30,833 --> 01:04:32,873
Got a question or a thought to share?

1219
01:04:33,263 --> 01:04:34,613
Comments are wide open.

1220
01:04:34,913 --> 01:04:36,143
We'd love to hear from you.

1221
01:04:36,253 --> 01:04:41,533
For bonus content and updates, follow
us on socials at Honest Money Show.

1222
01:04:42,583 --> 01:04:47,413
Until next week, take care of yourself
and your money and stay decentralized.