[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond. [00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. [00:00:14] Dan: You are indeed. And how the devil are you? How is life on the farm? Pete, you took a little bit of time away. How is [00:00:20] Pia: I am returning. Returning with force. [00:00:23] Dan: Returning to the land, [00:00:24] Pia: it's spring and now the quest is on to try and keep the grass at bay. So things are growing, things are moving. We have to, hopefully two horses joining our property. So I'm trying to find a fence. So a lovely we not me moment. My neighbor, cause I'm trying to find a fencer and I can't find them for love or money. Anyone out there who's sort of in the country, ooh, some of these things are very difficult to find. But my lovely neighbor jumps in his car, says, I'm gonna take you to my sister's, and that's where I have to go and view that fence. And that was because somebody had quoted me three times the standard rate to put a fence up around, which would've been a small fortune. But my lovely neighbor came to my rescue, as did our car, didn't work. And we weren't quite sure what was wrong. [00:01:14] Another we not me moment, I have to say. When you make relationships here, they stick and, and now I know why, because I'd never ever gone for a service and said, I think there's a rodents in my engine. And there was. [00:01:29] Dan: Seriously? [00:01:30] Pia: Seriously. yeah, so, so something, probably a rat had got in there and started chewing part the sort of things that aren't meant to be chewed in a Hyundai Santa Fe, according to the manual. So, yeah, and I think there was a lovely Facebook post that Juliet did I think about a chicken that was actually retrieved from a car as well. [00:01:56] Dan: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, same thing. And I love the, and sort of accompanied by the service notes, including return chicken to owner. So, um, yeah, very dead pan. Yeah. [00:02:06] Pia: did ask this guy was exactly the same. He was the most dead pan. But I've got him smiling at the curl, the curling of his lips. So he's finding it quite funny. This city, English city chick's got no idea, but I said, Did you find anything in there? Well, no, not actually, but it would definitely. Very busy. [00:02:24] Dan: Well, I remember as a teenager reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and he warns in there, beware of laughing mechanics. He says It's a serious business. So it sounds like you, you're answer a winner. , you're onto winner. [00:02:38] But uh, so your life, life uh, your life back on the farm is is treating you well. But just making a little segue your life outside gets us into our, in a slightly dodgy segue, but gets us into our guest for today. Bart Foster, who is the founder of Business Outside. And it'll see in the moment. That means many ways of getting outside very many things that we sometimes feel constrained by. And I met Bart yeah, a long time ago, and he was always an exceptional human being. And I think the energy of this conversation will say that to us. So let's head over there and hear what Bart has to say. [00:03:13] Pia: Hey Bart, lovely to see you again. How are you? [00:03:20] Bart: It's been a long time. Glad to be. [00:03:22] Pia: it has been a long time, and welcome to We Not Me, and as is traditional in this process. I'm gonna hand you over to Dan Hammond. Now you know each other well, so be prepared for whatever this random question may be. [00:03:36] Dan: It genuinely is random. And here's a question I would send X to Room 101. [00:03:43] Bart: Is Room 101? Is that a British reference [00:03:45] Dan: think it must be It's a George Allwell thing, and in Room 101, you meet your worst terrors, you're the thing you fear and dread the most. [00:03:55] Bart: I would um, if I could send like working in an office like 12 hours a day in front of a desk in a computer and it's, there's not even a window. There's like a little crack and you can see like clouds outside. That would be my 101. [00:04:13] Dan: I love it. Room 101 is an office that works perfectly, and I suspect it might give us a segue into today's show. [00:04:20] Pia: absolutely. I totally relate to that one, Bart. I remember many of my student digs when I was, which is accommodation, when I was, you know, much younger, a few decades back, when you opened the curtains, all you saw was another brick wall, less than a meter away from you, and that was your whole view. [00:04:38] Bart: Can I just share a comment that I recently realized? Humans have been on Earth 2 million years, just about, but for 1,997,000 years, really until the Industrial Revolution, we've been outside and it's, and our bodies weren't meant for that. What are, What are we doing? [00:04:55] Dan: Well, we'll definitely come to that [00:04:57] Pia: just, that was a little taster. Little snack just to get us going. Come on. Tell us a bit about you. Who is Bart Foster? [00:05:05] Bart: So I was a big company guy for a number of years, and Dan, that's where we met, right? I was with Kellogg's and then I was with Novartis and I was selling contact lenses. I was in the uk, that's when I met you. That must have been 20 years ago, [00:05:19] Dan: it was indeed, [00:05:20] Bart: I was always an intrapreneur just trying to challenge the status quo. And even though I was a big company guy, it was an intrapreneur. And um, eventually I was able to spin a company out and created a vision screening kiosk that eventually turned into a health and wellness station, and became an entrepreneur. [00:05:40] What I do now is I, I live in Boulder, Colorado, and I help large companies and small companies think differently and get outside of their comfort zone and outside of corporate norms and, and outside of nature. But it, I learned a lot along the way. Made a ton of mistakes, but I'm living a very intentional life now, and I think that's what is resonating with a lot of people. [00:05:58] Pia: Was there a seminal moment or was it a series of things that made you move from that path of corporate to the business that you've got now and the insight that you've got around being outside in the connection with nature? [00:06:13] Bart: Yes, It was a dramatic shock to the system. So I ran a company that I founded for seven years, and we put these health and wellness stations into places like Walmart and others in high traffic retail environments. And I, I learned a really valuable lesson along the way. When you raise 50 million in capital, it's not your company anymore. [00:06:33] And one day I got invited to breakfast for my chairman and he said, How big do you want this company to get? And I shared with him a number and he said, You know, every once in a while I see a company that has all the makings that go in public. And this is one of those times and I think we should go a lot bigger. He said, But you know, we'll have to, we'll have to make a few changes. And I said, Oh yeah, we'll need a new CFO, and I wasn't picking up what he was laying down. Well, you can laugh now. It wasn't funny at the time, [00:07:02] Dan: No, I bet, I bet this is what they call, This is like a Russian lunch, isn't it? You take your team out to lunch and don't bring them back. [00:07:07] Bart: Yeah. he had like the guns blazing, like, you know, he said, you know, I would even consider being CEO for a while. And I said, What? Like, that's my job. [00:07:19] Dan: Yeah, I'm That seat's occupied [00:07:22] Bart: And he said, But you know, I would only want to do it if you're okay with it. I want you to take the weekend, or you talk to your wife, you know, and you figure this out. And I got in the car and I cried. And I cried because for me, without being the CEO, right, who was I? And I went through this range of emotions from anger to sadness, to just despair to loneliness, to you know, who am I without the CEO title, basically? [00:07:55] But that put me on a whole new path and a whole new journey. And there's a lot of detail behind that. But I ended up staying on for a few months. But it was clear that you can't have two CEOs. And I. I departed, but I, I, I essentially got forced out of the company that I founded. So that, you know, at the time I was uh, was in a group called YPO and I was in a forum and my forum helped me realize like, Hey, you're still the same guy. You can go do something else. [00:08:22] And I took the summer off and I started some deep kind of introspection work. Two of the exercises that they made a huge impact on me that I'll share is: one, I developed a personal value statement. And we had these cards and we sorted 'em into a pile and, and you put 'em into a pyramid and then you take your top values and you create a personal value statement. For me, that became like my North Star. And it showed me what I really value in life. [00:08:49] And then very soon after I did an exercise around your unique ability. Some people call it your zone of genius, and you think there's four quadrants, right? There's things we love, there's things we hate, there's things we're terrible at, and there's things we're great at. And that top right hand corner of things we love and things we're great at, that's your zone of genius. [00:09:11] And what I realized is that if I could create an intentional life matches up with my zone of genius and my personal values, that's what I'm gonna be the happiest, the healthiest, the most productive. And that's what I did. And it put me on this journey to get to Boulder. [00:09:26] So I, I get the Boulder, I didn't know anyone, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I thought maybe I'll buy a business. I'll work in private equity. I didn't know. And I started reaching out to people. And you know, I came from Atlanta and in most of the US, you know, to network with other people, you ask them to coffee, to lunch, you network. Well this one woman, she was a venture capitalist, Elizabeth Krause, she says Uh, I don't meet for lunch or coffee. She said, Meet me at the Trailhead and we'll go for a hike. And I remember telling my wife Like, this is really weird. I'm going on a hiking meeting. I don't know what to wear. [00:09:56] But I'll tell you, something happened that day, Dan. It was special because I felt more alive. I was more authentic. We're hiking and we're walking shoulder to shoulder. We're not making direct eye contact, but we're having this intimate discussion. And it was the first time, probably in six months that I shared with her, you know, I got forced outta the company. I founded. And she stopped and she looked at me in the trail and she's like, Oh. She's like, Yeah, that happens all the time. [00:10:20] Dan: moving on, you think No, I cried in the [00:10:24] Bart: Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, Well get it together. [00:10:27] Stop crying. No, but she she helped me realize like, Oh my God. One, we don't have to be inside looking at each other and watching PowerPoint slides and, you know, being in an office, we can actually do business while we're walking and hiking. And eventually that became my default. [00:10:42] So now I, you know, I have people they'll meet at my house and they want, you know, advice, mentorship, whatever it is. And I'll say, Hey, meet me in my house. We'll go for a walk. And there's something that happens when we're moving, and I find for me, I'm more focused, I have more energy, I have more ideas, I'm more creative, and that put me on this path and this journey. And then when Covid hit, it just accelerated. It's almost like the paddles when you have a heart attack and somebody's going, and all of a sudden there's this wake up call and people are like, Wait a minute, I don't have to commute an hour and a half. I don't have to work for some asshole boss. Like, we can do things differently. [00:11:17] So what Business Outside, that's the name of the company. Business outside is not just outside of nature, but it's outside of our comfort zone. It's outside of corporate norms. It's doing things differently. So I'm a facilitator, I'm a coach, have recently wrote a book, and the whole idea is I wanna inspire people to think differently and to get outside. And I just use nature as a backdrop. And, you know, one of the signature things we do, it's called a Business Outside connection hike. [00:11:45] So I happen to be in New York right now, and it's part of a global conference that's called YPO, Young Presidents Organizations, 2,200 people here. Well, I'm just doing a bolt-on and we're gonna do a connection hike in Central Park. And we're gonna have 75 CEOs. We meet the park and we're gonna walk. And just like you have your deck cards, I have these discussion prompts and I'll say, Hey guys, stop a look in your shoes. Get with somebody you haven't met. Raise your hand if you need a partner. All right, here we go. And I'll start it really simple and I'll say something like, Think about something you celebrated or you're proud of in the last six months, right? Follow me. And they just go two by two. [00:12:25] And then after about 10 minutes, we'll have a big circle. Alright. I wanna hear what did somebody else celebrate, right? And people are, This is George and he just had a baby. And every. It's awesome. And then I'll say, Right now, pair up again and we'll do it and we'll switch three or four times. And by the end you've had five meaningful connections. Not just the networking, like that's a dirty word. It's a meaningful connection. It's getting beyond the superficial and having a real authentic connection. And that to me is where the magic is. And companies are realizing that to attract and retain talent and to have the highest performing teams, you gotta have good relationships and you have to have trust. And trust is built in vulnerability, and you do that by some of the things I just said. [00:13:09] Dan: I was really interested, Bart, by that point, that Covid accelerated your, you're on your mission that the heart attack paddles moment, which is fascinating, isn't it? Because that was the point actually when, as you say, everyone went home, but mostly started focus how to work on how to work virtually, how to reconnect, how to get on Zoom. You've almost taken a Different view of that, an alternative view of actually getting people together physically. [00:13:39] Bart: The fu the future work is gonna be remote and it's gonna be hybrid, right? People are gonna come back to work, but it's not gonna be the same. But I will say you can definitely develop real and authentic connections virtually, but you have to be intentional. And you can't just jump into work. [00:13:53] So I'll give you a couple examples. So one of the things I do on every meeting particularly more than 10 or 15, 20 people, and I've done this with hundreds virtually, is I'll say, Guys, we're gonna do a quick centering and a grounding. And they'll say, What do you mean, who's this weird guy from Boulder? Right? And I'll say, Listen, I'm gonna invite you, just roll away from your desk, Put your hands in your, in your in your lap, and I'm gonna invite you to close your eyes. And we're gonna take a really deep breath in through our nose and exhale. We're gonna take deep breath in. We're gonna exhale. And I say, When you breathe in, you're gonna breathe in energy and optimism. And on your exhale, you're gonna let go of any stress and distractions. and we do that for about two minutes, two minutes, that's it. And I say, All right, thank you. Open your eyes. [00:14:39] And I said, Guys, we all come to work, we're not just human resources, we're actually humans, and we're not just coworkers. We're mothers and fathers and caregivers and all these things. So if we get to know each other as humans and realize that there's a lot of distractions, right? We came into this meeting that we're just at. Everybody's on their phone, right? They had text messages or wondering about their son's basketball practice. No, we're gonna do centering and grounding, so we all show up at the meeting at the same time. That's a little thing. [00:15:08] And then we'll do a quick check in. How are you feeling mentally, emotionally, physically, and is there anything holding you back from being completely present for the next hour and a half? And then you have a chance. You can say, you know, my dog might go ape shit if the mailman comes. Other than that I'm in, you know? But people don't do it. They just race from meeting to meeting. And they're staring at they're screen the whole time. [00:15:30] I'll even say, Hey guys I've done this in a meeting with Alcon recently. We had a hundred people on the call and I say, Hey guys, we're gonna take a 20 minute break, but here's what's gonna happen on the break. I'm gonna put you in a breakout room and I want you to go for a walk with that person. And they're like, Wait, what? How's that work? Well, they have AirPods in, they go for, you know, and they just take their phone and it works. [00:15:50] And here's the key. I said, You've gotta take a selfie outside. You gotta be outside. You gotta take a selfie and you're gonna text it to this number. And they text it. And then I've got one of my, my interns and he puts a mosaic together and they come back for the break and it's got a hundred pictures of people outside like doing shit. Who do, no one does that. [00:16:09] Pia: So, what are you seeing that people are realizing that's happening to them, and then when they're going through these experiences and they're having human connections, what's also then happening to them? [00:16:22] Bart: So people realizing that we've lost parts of our humanity and we're becoming robots. We're staring at screens and everything in our life is meant to be comfortable. There's a book recently, it was written by Michael Easter, it's called The Comfort Crisis, and he talks about, you know, we go from our heated our air conditioned card, our air conditioned office to our comfortable bed with our plush pillows, and they're nice food and it's all comfortable. like, it's too easy and it, we just come like robots. And it, what happens is it's so comfortable that we lose the human side. [00:17:02] So what people realizing when they come to some of our retreats and our events, and I work with forum groups, is if we can strip all that away, we can be vulnerable, we can be authentic, and then we can get beyond the superficial conversations. If you think about a bell curve, 70% of the conversations that we have in life are right in the. How's the weather? How's your job? Oh, we should catch up sometime. That's a cool car. How long was your flight like no one cares, but they just say this shit. Just that because that's just what you do. How are you? Oh, how are you? I'm good. How are you? We should catch up. Like, no, let's catch up right now. Hey, we're talking right now. [00:17:40] But again, the bell group, so 70%. If you get to the 10% on each side, positive and negative, that's where you get to a little bit more of the feeling, the emotion you don't share with everybody. And then the 5%, the tail on both sides, that's where it's the, either the deep dark secrets you never share or it's the, you know, things you would love to brag about, but you just can't. But when you get outside of the 70, that's where the magic happens. [00:18:06] Dan: And d you meet resistance, Bart? We're not used to this. And we, we see in our work a lot people. Where corporate armor of some sort. [00:18:15] Bart: You say we, I think you mean older people our age because younger generation, They're used to it. [00:18:20] Dan: it. Well, what I mean is, Sorry, what I meant was Pier and I, we see, people with that. Yeah. And older people do. Yeah. Well, well older than you. Yes. But are you, so do you see that? Let's catch that though. So, so do you find the younger generation is more open to that and ready and the older generation still has some more, a more like to have the armor on. What does, Let's do that generational thing. How does that play out? [00:18:45] Bart: So I was raised, You don't share dirty laundry. You don't show emotion, particularly at work. And you have it all together and it's, yes, everything's great. The younger generation's not like that, and there's plus the minuses. But the big plus is people are authentic, they're real, and they're in touch with their emotions and their feelings. And that is the magic. And that's where we're finding so much success with people in their, in their forties, fifties, and sixties. They were never shown this way. And what happens, if you're vulnerable other people are vulnerable. And then vulnerability builds trust. And that's what Brené Brown has, has made her whole career on. [00:19:25] Dan: This is a little bit of a change of topic, but you mentioned when you met um, your first meeting, it was outdoors, I think Elizabeth Cross, I think her name was. And you said you were walking together looking forward. I've heard there's something about that isn't there, that talks to us about the walking piece and the, we're taught to as well, the sort of convention is you have to look at people and understand their body language to actually connect with them. [00:19:49] Bart: So it's the same reason why they tell you, you know, with kids, the best time to have a conversation is in the car cuz you don't have to make direct eye contact. And the fact that they're, they're held hostage, they can't go anywhere but. But there's something about movement and walking that generates more ideas, more creativity. But you're also more vulnerable and you're more focused. And when you're not making that drake eye contact, you're a little bit open and it's it's been proven that you actually will share more and you'll get beyond that. 70%. And you'll get to the, the feeling of the emotion. And that's, to me, That's where the relationships are. really built. [00:20:28] Pia: There was a term that Dan and I learnt probably about, I don't know, 20 years ago, which we've sort of, we've challenged a bit called Pedagogie of Place, which sounds like a very, you know, management BS term. But what I liked about it was the place that you are in helps to facilitate the outcomes that you're looking for. So when you go out into the open, you know, you go into breathtaking scenery, it's going to evoke different set of emotions that if you're sitting around you know, a standard four by four meeting room with tables and chairs, and no light. So do you think about that? Do you think about the different settings that you place people in to create the opportunity for different conversations? [00:21:18] Bart: Absolutely, and I haven't heard that term, but intuitively it makes a ton of sense. Time, place, setting, it all matters. So, as an example, when I do the meetings, particularly people, you know, eight to 12, 15 person teams, and I've done it as big as a hundred, we don't start with a table in the middle. It's, we start with a big circle and everyone can see each other. But there's no table, there's no, there's nothing in the middle. And we do that intentionally on purpose, because you want people to make that direct eye contact and feel that space together. And if we can do it outside, great. And a lot of times we'll do it outside. [00:21:54] Pia: I remember doing something similar, a leadership program, and we went to pretty much a haunted island in the middle of Sydney, which had tunnels and big aircraft hangers and all sorts of interesting things. And it really was, it was extraordinary to see how the place that people were in, you know, expansive views or historical artifacts, whatever it was, gave a certain mood, which I think is really important. What happens to us when we have to go back to these rather airless rooms that we are conducting most of our meetings in? Can we take the outside back in [00:22:31] Bart: well, you start by telling your boss that you have these new tools and ideas, and you want to try some of this stuff. And it starts slow. And I'll give you like six different tips you can try and it's on our website too, but you know, one is, it's just being intentional, right? So Fresh Air Fridays, so let's say every Friday, Hey guys, we're gonna take an hour, two hour, whatever it is, and we're gonna have Fresh Air Friday. And that might meet, go for a walk, it might meet lunch, outside, whatever It is. And I've heard from people, different parts of the country, like, Well, we, we just have shitty weather. Well, there's no such thing as bad weather. It's just bad clothing. It's just bad clothing, you know? And I say that cuz I, I want some apparel sponsors, you know? [00:23:11] Dan: Yeah. on, Patagonia. Step up. [00:23:15] Bart: go step up. Um, Walkie talkies. Even if you're not physically in the same place as somebody putting a pair of AirPods, go for a walk. I'll tell you, people are more focus. There's not, you know, 10 different, you know, text messages and stuff coming in from the different screens and emails and everything, and you're walking. It's called a walkie-talkie. Do a checkout. Instead of a check in. Like, Hey, let's, I wanna check in with you and then let's do a checkout. Let's have a meeting outside. if you're gonna review PowerPoint presentations, like, why do you have to do it inside? Take your laptop, go on the picnic table. [00:23:52] This is funny. Big, big company, I'll leave out. It's a contact lens company, big company, Dan. And I'm sitting in their, their headquarters. Like, we were inside all day and I said, Hey, why don't we go meet on that picnic table? And I was looking down, it's like this window. I was looking down and they said, Well, that's, it's in the direct sunlight. That's gonna be too hot. And I said, Well, how many people does it take to move the table? Like, What do you mean? Probably four? And I'm like, Well, we have five. Let's just move the table into the shade. You can move the table? Why can't we move the table? What do you, of course we can move the table. Let's go. [00:24:27] Dan: had to call facilities to do that. For [00:24:29] Bart: Yes. That's exactly what they were concerned about. And I said, Listen, blame it on me. We're gonna go move the table and we move the table and everybody's looking out the window. They're like, What are those guys doing? That's really weird. We're meeting on a picnic table in the shade. [00:24:41] Dan: Yeah, that's a, It's for, That's a good kick off my question that I'm really interested in when you, I'm sure you must meet resistance, because you are trying to take us in many ways in the opposite direction of what we used to, comfort, the 70%. What sort of resistance do you meet if you do, and how do you overcome it if people want to push back on trying something different? [00:25:04] Bart: I don't meet a lot of resistance, honestly. I don't. There's skepticism in the first three hours. And it's typically about like, who is this guy? Why is this is really weird, and why I don't want to get, I'm uncomfortable, I don't want to get to the emotion. Like, is is weird. And then I share something really vulnerable and I, I will shed a tear or, and I always try to come up with different examples. And I think being a male and being able to do that, it just cuts through everything. And I've got people like locked in. They're like, Holy shit, this guy's real, he's authentic. Okay. This isn't just bullshit. [00:25:41] And then typically, you know, the first night there's some opening dinner, right? And, and most corporate dinners, right? There's a toast. Like, you know, somebody's cleaning the glass. It's really good. I'm glad everybody's here celebrating everything, and then people start drinking and then people start disappearing, you know? Well, what happens is that by 8, 8 30, whatever it is, before the first person, I'll do another toast and I'll set the intention for the next day and I'll say, I'm glad, I'm really glad you're here. And I'll say, Tomorrow's a big day. We're taking a hike in the morning. We're doing this, and that. And I said, I'm here for a reason. I'm here to meet connections. I wanna do this, and that. I said, You guys, do what you want tonight, but I'm gonna be going to bed soon because, And I'll give him a quote from Richard Branson, which I love. And you'd like Richard. Richard Branson says, Alcohol steals happiness from tomorrow. [00:26:34] Dan: Yeah, [00:26:34] Bart: It, he's not saying it was bad, like, you can go drink, you're just, not gonna be happy tomorrow. [00:26:38] Dan: just, just, remember it's gonna take it all into this evening when they may [00:26:41] Bart: It's just a little bit, you know, it just steals a little happiness. So, so I, I say I'm really happy right now and I'm gonna be happier tomorrow, so see ya. And just setting that example in doing it with confidence and conviction. I'm not trying to make people feel guilty, They do whatever they want, but it just changes the dynamic and it's like, oh, this is a different type of meeting. Because otherwise people are like, Oh, let's go. Go have another drink. Let's have two shots. And then all of a sudden you got six people hungover. They're going through the line and they're staring at their shoes. They're not talking to anybody. They're looking at their phone, and then the meeting's getting ready to start and they're sitting in a ballroom with PowerPoint presentations like that happens all over the country, but not in our meetings. [00:27:19] Dan: we've talked about this quite a bit on the show actually, where Yeah we get everyone to go away for a strategy planning offsite and then, drink loads and so we plan our strategy with a hangover. [00:27:30] Bart: Not to mention inside in a basement with no windows eating like shitty mints. [00:27:36] Dan: Yeah. [00:27:36] Bart: the hotel. [00:27:37] Dan: it's just, [00:27:38] Pia: it's the mints. That, they're [00:27:40] Dan: it's the mints. They are definitely, that's at the heart. They still happiness from today. That's what I would say. Bart, it's just be it's inspiring that 70% just keeps coming back to me and I realize we can apply it to almost everything to think about getting outta that 70%. [00:27:55] Bart: You know what the litmus test is? The litmus test is if you, whatever you're gonna share, if you would share with anybody, somebody you just met on the plane, somebody at the coffee shop, whatever you've never. met, you're probably not going deep enough with whoever it is that you're trying to get a relationship with. Well instead of asking, Well, how are you? How about What's bringing you joy? What's giving you energy? What's zapping your energy? What are you most excited about right now? It's the best vacation you've ever been on? Like, there's a whole bunch. Like I, I can give you hundreds of them. But just get beyond the, how you doing? I'm good. How are you? [00:28:32] Dan: I remember, you'll relate to this. When I went to the States to work, I would pass people in the corridor and I would say, and they'd say, Hey, how you doing? And I would say, Oh, I'm very well, thank you. How are you? And they'd just keep walking. I never eventually realize it's just that how you're doing is just, hello. So you just have to say, How you doing? How you doing? And um, so it's not, it's turned into not even a question, but [00:28:53] Bart: Do you think some of it's cultural do you think other cultures are better at going deeper and. [00:28:57] Pia: I think, I can't speak on behalf of all cultures, but certainly the experiences I'm seeing is that we are losing the power of conversation and connection, because it's much easier to get bite sized through technology. And then the force of transformation, change, pressure to deliver is increasing. And we're trying to juggle all the normal things like our relationships and our children and our own health at the same time. But we're sort of almost diluting our capacity to do so almost sort of like an app. We want an app for life that could sort of control us. And I think what you are talking about and doing is actually getting back to basics. It's not that complicated, but we have to remind ourselves. [00:29:45] Bart: so easy. We just don't do it. [00:29:47] Pia: No. And just you know, I think that's the really important part. And I really liked your points around comfort to discomfort and then what discomfort will actually show up for you, [00:29:58] Bart: So think about a circle with a.in the middle. That's your circle of comfort. You can draw it. Everything in that circle is what you're comfortable with. It's the food you like, it's your friends, it's your comfy bed, it's your job. It's your comfort zone. And what happens is when we step outside of that and we're little uncomfortable and we wanna retreat and get back and just, and then you draw another circle around that, because what happens is your circle just gets bigger. And what I used to tell my kids is it's my job as a parent to get your circle as big as we can make it. And now they just roll their eyes. They're like, Oh yeah, dad, we're expanding our circle. [00:30:38] Dan: That, that phase. [00:30:39] Bart: But the truth is there's no comfort and growth and there's no growth and comfort. And if we can expand that comfort zone and make it bigger. So for me, I have to lead by example. Every week I'm trying to find things that are just a little outside my comfort zone, and I want to inspire and teach other people how to do the same. [00:30:57] Dan: It's fantastic. I think you and I, a long time ago, Bar saw someone talking about that. Miles Hilton Barber. Exactly. And he said to me, and yeah, and it sort, it was great because he said that if you go, let's say in this direction in your comfort zone, it expands all around you, doesn't it? The whole circle gets bigger. So that really stayed with me for life and I'm glad you've managed to impress it on your kids. [00:31:18] Pia: Bart, I'm just wondering, how can these practices be used by a leader with their team? Cause we're all about this concept of we so individually we can feel that greater connection. But how, how can we do this? What are simple tips and practices for a leader to be intentionally thinking about how they can shape things up and create greater connection for their team? [00:31:40] Bart: Do a center and a grounding at the beginning of a meeting, check in. How are you feeling mentally, emotionally, physically? And then don't just ask, but actually listen. And listen to what people are saying. Because if they say, You know what, I'm a little tired this morning because I couldn't sleep last night. My dog passed away the night before, so I'm a little distracted today. I'm trying my best. But you know what, It happens. Most people never ask. And they just, they see that she's just not quite engaged. And then, without asking, people jump to their own conclusions. Oh, I wonder why sally hasn't been engaged for the last three days? That's kind of weird. But why don't we just ask, like, she lost her dog that she's had for 10 years. Like, let's give her a little space. [00:32:28] You know why people leave companies they leave because they don't have any friends at work. You're 50% less likely to leave your current employer if you have two or more friends, like good friends. But with the pandemic we're all working remotely and we haven't had these general connections. So something to do as a leader, bring your team together, but it's not the boondoggles of the past. It's not boozing it up at the bar and playing golf. It's having genuine connection and being intentional and asking questions that matter. [00:32:59] Dan: it's so right, but, and I think we've really reflected on this how. In the virtual world, you use quite often on group calls, but we have neglected that thing that happens a bit more naturally when we are together, which is the one-on-one connection. And that yes, you can do these things in teams that how do you actually build those one-on-one connections, build those relationships by sharing emotions and it's, it's very often a thing we, we are not deliberate about and that quickly fades away in this, in our back to back meetings, I think. [00:33:27] Bart: You can feel it in a conversation. It doesn't matter what setting you're in, when somebody gets beyond the superficial, you just feel it. Like, their shoulders drop a little bit. They're, it's not rehearsed. And that's why, you know, in an interview you try to get somebody to get off their, know, I don't like the question, Oh, tell me about yourself. And it's this question behind the question. And then we get 'em to get a little bit beyond the superficial, and that's where you get the real authentic person. [00:33:54] Dan: Hey, Bar, this has been a show, a conversation packed with practical advice. So this is a slightly unfair question, but just b, just we always ask it, What could someone do? Maybe they're feeling. Unsure. Maybe they're lacking a little bit of courage. They're trying to drum up that courage to get outta that comfort zone and do something different in this direction. What would, what's your advice to them to start? [00:34:16] Bart: If you're having a little angst, there's a great framework that I learned from Jeff Bezos and uh, it's called Regret Minimization. And you think about your life, like you're 80 and you work backwards and you try to minimize as many regrets. So that's a framework. It's try to minimize regret. And if there's one like meaningful step that you can do to taken in that direction. And it could be as simple as introducing yourself to someone you haven't met, going, having lunch with somebody in a different department, calling someone up you know, that just started in their new job. Invite 'em to lunch. Just take a risk, take a chance and get outta your comfort zone just a little bit, and then ask real questions and then listen. To me that helps. And they could, they could read my book too if they want. [00:35:08] Dan: That seems like a very good idea. Bart, you started with the comment that you were a big company guy. I want to endorse that fully in every sense because you were not just working in a big company, you were always big and having a huge impact. And it's great to see that fire still burning within you. So thank you so much for joining us today on We Not Me, and sharing that, that with our listeners. [00:35:28] Bart: So we're gonna give your listeners a challenge or anything. What are we gonna do? [00:35:31] Dan: You throw down the gauntlet to them. What have they gotta do in the next, What do you want? Want, what do you want it [00:35:35] Bart: I'm gonna pose a question that they're gonna ponder, and then I'm gonna give them something to do to get outta their comfort zone. [00:35:41] Dan: Love it. [00:35:42] Bart: And I, I'm gonna do this for you guys, and you have to lead by example. You don't have to do it right now, but in the next, you know, 48 hours, whatever. Okay. Here it's, I want you to think about, this is for all the listeners. I want you to think about your life like branches of a tree. We've all had different forks in the road. Who was a person who made a big impact on you and one of those forks in the road? What did they say? How they make you feel, and how they changed the trajectory of your life? [00:36:08] I want you to take your phone and I want you to go outside and I want you to take a short selfie video, 30 seconds, and I want you to tell the person what they mean to you, and send it. Do that. Because here's the deal. Most people that make an impact on us, they have no idea. [00:36:27] And then the follow up to that, once you do it, then I want you to think about who are you being that for in their life? Because the reality is we don't know, but words matter and actions matter. It could be the barista at the coffee shop. It could be somebody in the airport line, you don't know, but words matter and actions matter. So I'd love your listeners to do that. [00:36:50] Dan: Perfect. Perfect. All right. This'll be good. We'll launch it. We are live this week, but with, uh, with with this one. So we'll get straight into it and we'll get that motoring. That'll be excellent start the gratitude movement. That's well at least contribute to it. [00:37:04] Bart: I love it. Let's do it. Let's [00:37:05] Dan: we love you too, but thank you so [00:37:07] Pia: thank you. And next time, next time we're coming to Boulder. It's [00:37:12] Dan: Yeah. It's time to walk in Boulder. [00:37:14] Bart: You know what I would say to that? Make it happen. [00:37:17] Pia: Make it happen. [00:37:18] Dan: And on those words, [00:37:20] we [00:37:21] Bart: Hashtag you make it. [00:37:27] Dan: that thing about 70% really struck me. And you know, we recorded that yesterday and I've been using that and thinking about it [00:37:35] Pia: Oh, that's [00:37:36] Dan: and in my conversations really having [00:37:38] Pia: Thanks [00:37:38] Dan: i i, I, I will do [00:37:39] Pia: Thank you so [00:37:41] Dan: at some point. .Yeah. Thanks for nothing. Completely just sitting here thinking about it. No. But in my conversations I've been aware of that bell curve with that sort of boring bell in the middle there and trying to get into these edges, trying to push out. And that, that really worked for me. And I think it applies to so many aspects of life actually. Just and it sort of summed up what Bart had to say in a way. [00:38:03] Pia: I agree with you and I think that he talked about being intentional and actually really thinking about, so if you go for a walking meeting, it's intentional. If you go and meet somewhere, it's that, I think we referred it that pedagogy of place. Like what are you choosing for the place to have the type of conversation that you're having, that intentionality. [00:38:21] But I think too, you talked, for me, it was about not just living a comfortable life. I somehow think it's interesting. We think a mark of success is comfort. We might just have lost a little bit of what the intention is of life, cuz it is the discomfort that allows us to get in touch with a bit more, with our vulnerability and allows us to be real. Now it's, it's hard. Again, that's gotta be intentional and that really landed for me. It was like sometimes when you feel the discomfort, you think it's a fail and actually, Which is a, I think is a wrong equation in my [00:38:58] Dan: Completely really connected with that 70%. Actually, that symptom is comfort, isn't it? And going out of that, you feel a bit weird, and that's a really good sign. And I think even out, you know, even physically we're we, there's been found that we are, our bodies benefit from discomfort, you know, getting into cold water and all of those things. So, it's a good thing to seek actually as discomfort. You know, when I lived in the States, I remember exactly what Bart said, that going from an air conditioned building to an air condit, Car that just goes bing at you half the time. You know, it just it can just drive you nuts actually in the end, too much comfort. So really being aware of that was, I think a great pointer from Bart there. [00:39:37] I think the other reflection I had was, For all of us trying to lead better and have better dialogue and better conversations and connect better, the questions that he asks on those walks. No offense, Bart, but they're dead simple, aren't they? Any, and he'd agree this, anyone could ask those questions and GE geniusly simple exactly that, but just not necessarily easy, but simple. So anyone could ask someone a question and just let it sit and have a conversation with it. And I think that simplicity actually, that Bart brings that is powerful because it means it's scalable. So someone could take that away and do it with their own team. So I thought that was um, incredibly smart. [00:40:16] Pia: And I think that as we talked a lot about on this, on these podcasts, the art of questioning. So again, think about your question rather than just actually, almost to go on autopilot to ask something that really, actually not that interested in getting an [00:40:31] Dan: Exactly. Exactly. And the uh quality of the question will drive the quality of the conversation, won't it? So, yeah, so, right. Marvelous. Great to see. And it was lovely to hear Bart in action as usual. [00:40:42] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your, Podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show notes. [00:41:03] We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me. [00:41:10] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.