Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the
Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode
number 104 fourth
our book today, a beast of a book, and we've already
actually intro-ed it. So you can go back and
listen to episode I believe it's 82 where we intro-ed this
book. But it is a beast of a book. I should just say that upfront.
That spans lifetimes and that stands as the gold
standard for worldbuilding protohistorical
narratives. This book is so big, my
translation comes in at around 1400 pages, not including notes and
an appendix, that it intimidates even the strongest, most
confident, and most literate readers. And forget
business reader and forget leader. It just intimidates
people. A matter of fact, when I held the book up
to show to my co host today, I promised
him I wouldn't make him read it. And he was relieved. He
laughed and not in, like, an ironic sort of laughing way. He
laughed in sort of a, I'm not reading that kind of way. Fortunately fourth
him, he doesn't have to. I am doing the reading, and he is providing the
color commentary today. Along with City of
God by Augustine of Hippo and the writers, Karmazov by
Fyodor Dostoevsky. This is one of those books that is so complex and
multifaceted that it is easier to ignore the book rather than to read
it. And many people do ignore it, unfortunately,
or it's easier to engage with the themes of the book outside of
the context of the book, rather than actually reading the book itself, which
a lot of people do that Tom, because it's hard
and long and it's written with complicated Russian
names. However, I've decided to take
the subsequent years on this podcast because, well, I
have years to burn, to pull apart this book
and to examine its themes in the context of leadership. Because to be
frank, what else are we going to embark upon here at the
end of the 4th turning? So today
we are covering the first five chapters of volume
1, part 1 of war and peace
by Leo Tolstoy. And
today I've invited our regular host,
Tom Libby. How are you doing, Tom? I'm
doing fantastic. Jesan. How are you? Even more fantastic
that you don't have to read this book. Even more fantastic. No. I
I don't for those I I gotta the I I found this very funny when
I when Jesan was and I were talking about this. Like, my my my wife
and and life partner is is a literature major.
Every time I tell her about the books that Hasan talk and I talk about,
she goes, why ain't I ever on that show? How come Haeson has asked me
to come on? And then I told her we were doing War and Peace today,
and she went, I saw the movie.
Bigly enough, I also saw the movie, but I don't know
if I watched the same version that she did. So there is a 5
part filmed in Russia, but
in French. Interesting version
on HBO max that you can get. I made it through part
1. I made it through part 2 and I made it through
halfway part through a part 3 before I tapped out.
And each one of those movies is, like, 2 and a half to 3 hours
long. Oh. It is ridiculously, brutally
epic. Oh. Oh,
yeah. In the and and and it's it it is. It's shot in French,
in or no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. They're speaking Russian that's then
translated into French, and then you have to read the subtitles in English. That's what
it is. Okay. So, yeah, the
the original Russian speakers, but they're dubbed in French that you read the, you read
the subtitles. So Interesting.
It is it is I had never seen anything like and it was shot back
book, like, the sixties, the sixties seventies. And so
I never, like, I never heard of this before. I I gotta let her
know. I'm I guarantee she will watch it, and she'll watch all 5 parts. I'm
just letting you know she will watch all 5. She loves this
stuff. Well, it definitely is
this is a book that when I tell people about it,
they go,
and then they slowly walk away. Like, they slowly back away. And then I show
it to them and they're like, my god, sir, why would you wanna read that?
And then they just they sort of run they sort of run for screaming for
the hills. And it is a book, I will be honest,
that I started to try to read when I was about
15 or 16, and I made it about I made it
through the first volume, volume 1.
And then I I moved on to Anna Karenina because I thought that was easier.
It is a standard for world building. Like, each one of these characters
in here, we're gonna talk about the characters today. We're gonna talk about a bunch
of different things today. But But each one of these characters is a
fully realized human being, and we'll talk about how long it took
Tolstoy to write this. But they are fully realized human beings. They're
not like they're not they're not caricatures and they're not they're
not paper dragons. Right? He's doing something a little bit
different. He's trying to he's trying to tell stories
about life while
Napoleon is floating around your continent. And
we'll talk a little bit about what that means today too.
So let me pick up from war
and peace. I'm gonna pick up in chapter 3. So it's volume 1,
part 1, chapter 3. This is how,
you know, this is an epic book. It has volumes and
part and then chapters. This
is how, you know, So Anna Pavlov knows soiree
was now in full swing. On all sides, the spindles were
humming away nonstop. Apart from the aunt and her sole companion, an
elderly lady with a thin careworn face who seemed rather out of place, this brilliant
society, the company had split into 3 groups. The
one with most men in it centered around the Abbey, another group of younger
people was dominated by the beautiful princess Helen or
Helen, prince Vasili's daughter, and the pretty little
princess Volkonsky with her blushing features and a
figure too full for her young age. Mortimer
and Anna Pavlona formed part of the 3rd group.
The viscount was a pleasant looking young man with gentle features and manners
obviously full of his own importance, but modest enough because of his good
breeding to indulge any company that he might find himself in.
And a Pavlovna was clearly showing him off to
her guests just as a skillful head waiter can pass off
as supreme delicacy, a cut of beef that would be inedible if
you'd seated in the filthy kitchen, Anna Pavlovna served up to her
guests that turning, first the discount, and then the as if they
were supreme delicacies. By the way, there are lines like that throughout
this whole entire book. Like, it's it's amazing.
In Mortemart's group, the conversation had turned to the execution
of the duke of Eichain. By the way, a lot of the events that
occur in war and peace are based on historical events that actually
occurred, in Europe and in Russia in the,
during the run up to the Crimean war and then during
the Crimean war and after the Crimean war, which was a knock
on effect from Bonaparte and everything that had been going on,
with, with Bonaparte. And so what Tolstoy did was he
took the events of the Crimean war that he had served
in, and he sort of went backwards in time and looked at what had
happened during the Napoleonic wars and then merged a bunch of different different
different events together. Okay? So anyway,
this duke of Einhine had been had actually been executed, in,
in Europe. The viscount held back to the book. The
viscount held that the duke had perished through his own magnanimity, and there
were special reasons behind Bonaparte's animosity towards him.
Oh, I essays. Do tell us all about it, Viscount, said Anna Pavlovna,
delighted to feel she had insinuated a touch of Louis 15th
in the old fashioned French phrase she had used. The viscount gave a
polite bow and a willing smile. Anna Pavlovna brought them into a
circle around him and beckoned everyone
over to hear his story. The viscount was a personal friend of the duke, she
whispered to one of them and murmured to someone else. The viscount is such a
good raconteur. By the way, that's a word I use all the time. Just pause,
back to the book. To a third person, she said, you see what a man
of quality. And the viscount was presented in the most refined
and advantageous light served up like a joint of beef
garnished with salad on a hot platter. The
viscount was preparing to launch forth his smile, but subtle. My
dear Jesan, do come over here, said Anna Pavlofna to the gorgeous
princess, sitting at the very center of the other group a little way off.
Princess Helene rose with a smile, the same unchanging beautiful woman smile
with which she had entered the room with a gentle rustle of her white ball
ground trimmed with ivy and moss. With her glistening
white shoulders, glossy hair, and sparkling diamonds, she moved between the men
as they stepped aside to make way for her without looking anyone in the
face, beaming at the company in general and apparently bestowing permission for everyone
to admire her wonderful figure, her full shoulders and her fashionably
exposed bosom and back, she glided up to Anna Pavlovna and the
brilliance of the ballroom seemed to come with her. Helene was so
exquisite that she not only avoided the slightest hint of flirtatiousness,
she even seemed to be embarrassed by the all too evident truly devastating
beauty that was hers. It was as if she wanted to tone down the effect
of her beauty, but couldn't do so. What a beautiful woman,
said everyone who saw her. The viscount shrugged and looked down as if
transfixed by a mysterious force as she arranged herself to sit
before him, not sparing him that ever dazzling smile.
Madam, I doubt my abilities in front of such an audience, he said,
bowing with a smile. The princess rested her round bare
arm on a little table and found it unnecessary to say anything.
She smiled and she waited. Sitting up straight through the Viscount
story, she glanced down occasionally either at her beautiful round arm so
casually draped across the table fourth at her still lovelier bosom and the
diamond necklace above it that kept needing adjustment. Several
times, she also adjusted the folds of her gown. And whenever the narrative made a
strong impact on the audience, she would glance across at Anna Pavlovna
in order to imitate whatever expression she could see written on the
maid of honor's face before resuming her
radiant smile.
That little piece right there proves that something for women on only
fans didn't just start with the Internet.
That's been going on for a while. Ladies and gentlemen,
When I read this piece and I read what Anna Pavlovna,
who is the, hostess of
this party, When I read what
she set up. Right? And I will talk about
why war and peace opens with a party because that's what it does in a
minute. I off I think of the the line from Ozzy Osbourne and War
Pigs. Generals gather in their masses just like
witches at black masses.
Everybody's getting together. And Anna Pavlovna,
in the days before mass communication,
Anna Pavlovna was one of the many people in
polite Russian society and, of course, impolite Russian society
from the highest sort of discounts and princes
and dukes all the way down to Tom, well, the
lowest peasant who would get together to
exchange information because they didn't have telephones
and they only had letters. Right? And so
parties were opportunities to mold statecraft, but they
were also opportunities to perform in person Everything that people
perform now on their smartphones.
All the technology has done is make it go quicker.
And just as on our smartphones and on the Internet, one of the things that
strikes you in this first the first three or fourth chapters of
war and peace is how much women have controlled the flow of
information throughout the course of human history and
have wielded great influence over communication channels at
aristocratic levels, as they do even
now in our post industrialized time. And many of
them just like Anna Pavlovna, organized their troops.
They resupplied and shored up defensive positions in conversations
and in general behaved like they controlled everything
because they did. At least
in the domestic party sphere, they did.
So I guess the place to start with Tom here,
because I just realized I didn't have any questions for him in the script
because it's been that kind of last 2 weeks. I did notice that
when I read through it. I was like, wow. So you just had me on
for my pretty face. There you go. That's right.
What do we think of, War and peace? I know. I know. I know. You
haven't actually read the book. You've had other people next to you read the book.
But what are your impressions been of this book when
you've heard about it and Anna Pavlovna's party and,
the princess Helene's, gloriously arrayed bosoms.
Okay. Well, I'm not talking about bosoms, but I did you know, I I will
be honest with you though. There was one thing that caught my attention when you
were reading that, and I didn't understand what they meant when they
said full shoulders. I think they mean
fully exposed. Okay. That makes more sense. But I was trying to
figure out, like, I was trying to figure out what the Oh, they're not doing
lifts. They're not, like, doing shoulder lifts. They're they weren't going to the gym. They
weren't crushing it. Yeah. Like, what are they like, as versus,
like, versus, like, were they trying to say she was a heavier woman because
she wasn't petite? That anyway, I was trying to she was not
a little woman. Yes. I I do grant I will I will yes.
Because But I because Tolstoy says round arms.
Right. Right. Okay. So, you know and back in the day, this is also
something that's very helpful to understand this book. Back in the day and the only
reason I know this is because I was an art major. I studied a lot
about this crap in college. But if you're,
if the women that you were responsible for as
a band were,
how could we put it in our Tom? We're,
more fully figured. That was a sign of
wealth. That was a sign of success. Right? So as you moved up the
aristocratic chain, people should be eating
better and sitting around more and having more of these
drawing books slash party type conversations. And so that was a sign you were
doing well. It is only in our era that as you go
further up the aristocratic line, everybody is thin and
rich. So I so
the other thought the other thought that came across my my head
was was, you know, kinda
you're talking about the the the party. People I don't
think people realize how much
the when you talk about the women controlling the in the flow of information.
Right? Mhmm. Yep. The subtleties behind that,
which, by the way, still exist today, just so you know. Oh,
yeah. So when when you know, you know, like, when
your wife says, it would be really you know what Libby it would be it
wouldn't it be nice if the room if we could paint the room a different
color? I think the room would look so much better yellow, and you go,
alright. I guess I'm painting the room yellow. She didn't essays, oh, paint the room
yellow. She just made the suggestion. So anyway, back back in those times when they're
like, oh, did you you and so and so you should talk to so and
so. I'm sure you'd have wonderful conversation. That was
like that was like code. Right? Like Oh, yeah.
That you I want you to go talk to this person because the information that
the 2 of you have is gonna be impactful to each other in some way,
shape, or form. And I think I think the funny thing is
is some of these human behaviors, regardless of
whether they're on your smartphone or not, we still we
still deploy in a certain way. Mhmm. We still do this in
certain in certain fashions. So Oh, well, when when when the book
opens, Anna Pavlovna, before she even is
having her party, she is,
how could I put it? She's buttonholed
by a, by the first person to arrive at her soiree,
prince prince of Vasili, Kuragin, a man of
high rank and influence. And so the prince comes in. He
starts talking to her in French, and,
and there's a they have a political discussion,
about emperor Alexander and about, about
Napoleon, and she very
carefully manipulates him. And Tolstoy does a
good job of showing this. That's a hard word.
Maneuvers him, in the conversation
into really asking what he really asking what he really wants to ask for,
which is a favor for, you know, one of his relatives. I believe it's his
son. One of his relatives, and she has access to
the people that can grant him the favor, and that's the only reason that
he showed up to the party. And she knows it and he knows it, but
no one's saying it out loud. Yeah. Yeah. Well
and I think I think back then, we were a little better a little better
at reading the room, so to speak, like, fourth like, what you just said. Right?
So in today's world in today's world, I think we're just a bit more direct.
Right? Yeah. Nissan, I'd I'd you know, actually,
a a a a a joint colleague that we have Mhmm. I was talking to
a couple of weeks ago, so I know your audience doesn't know Kevin, but so
I was talking to Kevin a couple of weeks ago, and I was like, listen.
I would really like you to talk to my son because he needs some straightening
out, and he's not listening to me. And I know he'll listen to you because
of your because of your area of expertise and what the question is
about. Right? And and, like, I'm just more we're just more direct about that
today because we don't have that I'm not sure if we don't have it
anymore fourth we don't need it anymore or we I I don't know what the
the the no the not part of this is, but we just don't do it
anymore. We don't have that subtle that subtle, you know, like,
to your point, like, he only went there because he had a favor to ask,
and he just asked it in a in a way that that she she
maneuvered him over. Right? So we don't have an equivalent of that
today, especially in social media. We're calling people out left and right, and we're
just calling right on the carpet. We'll just it's just we do well, I think
I I think you're right. In social media, we don't have the equivalent of sort
of that
indirect Book, because we have less fear too. We would say we
say so many things on social media. We would never say it to somebody in
person. Sure. Well, you and I have this conversation,
or no. You and I didn't have it. John Hill, another guest of mine. John
Hill, we talked about the way of the samurai. And
one of the by Inuzonotobi. And Inuzonotobi was
a Japanese writer in the early 20th century
who wrote about, how the samurai had developed and the
rules of being a samurai in Japan during a time when the
samurai were basically dead and done.
And one of the points that Natoby made was, and we actually talked about it,
John and I talked about it on podcast,
It was about how the samurai or maybe it was all of
Japanese society was more polite even in the early 20th
century than the west because the Libby went back and forth right after
World War 1, trying to store
up US Jesan relationships, right, and relations.
And he married an American woman and, you know, so he got to see both
sides of that both sides of that that coin. And so John and I talked
about this idea of politeness in the context of social media.
We have, and I made the point and I'll make it here. We've
lost what it means to be polite.
Part of it is, and I made this point again on that on
that other episode, Part of it is
because of the behavior that we've allowed to occur on social
media that has now spilled into our real life communication,
We've sort of abandoned that, but, and you see
this with Anna Pavlovna and her party.
I think in general, historically, as an American culture, we've
always looked at politeness as one of those things that was just sort
of aristocratic and European
and pointless. It's almost like politeness is is
equivalent to weakness at certain in certain facets, not
all, but at certain Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're talking
about the the building of capitalism on top of on top
of the American politics. Right? Like, that's Right. So politeness is
kind of a weakness because you they want you to be direct and they want
you to just, you know, you're you're supposed to go a 100 miles an
hour full steam ahead, and politeness doesn't really lead way to that. Well, and
this is part the trouble that people modern people have with understanding the civil war.
Like so modern people don't understand the American civil war.
And I and I, again, I can bring this up in the context of, war
and peace because Tolstoy was writing during a period of time when,
the emancipation of the serfs, was occurring at Russia, and that occurred
in 18/61. While the emancipation of our slaves occurred in
18/63, except ours occurred during the course
of a war. Theirs occurred during a during a time
of, aristocratic
and, what do you call it? The royal
upheaval in Russia. 2 different
contexts, right, for to solve the same problem in
essence. But
in our time fourth not in our time, in our history,
thus, the idea of a southern gentleman.
Right. Which even that face you just made right there, even that smirk right writers.
Like that's an anathema to us. Now we don't
understand why people defended slavery from
the perspective of Southern honor. We have zero understanding of that now.
And we also really don't understand why people would go to war for honor.
But that's the furthest end of going to war for politeness, going to war to
preserve our polite culture. They had the southerners, by the way, said that about the
northerners. If you go back and look at reading what they said, they're like, no,
you people are rude. You're rude and you're disrespectful, and we're
gonna teach you a lesson. We're gonna thump you so hard that
you'll never come back down here and be rude and disrespectful ever again.
Now the Fourth responded to that by saying, to your point about
capitalism, we'll just use capitalism in industry. How about that?
And that was what fundamental one of the fundamental threads
that was underneath the civil war. But I think that those threads still
exist underneath America today. I don't think they've gone anywhere. No, I
don't. I agree. Have you ever
been to a party like that, by the way? I've been to parties like that
before. Fourth been to a party like that? I have. Everybody knows
why they're there, but nobody's saying it out loud? So I I have.
And, you know, the odd is I found it to be one of the most
odd it was a Teamsters union
party. Oh my. Okay. Yeah. So it
was Teamsters, and I found it first of all, why was I
there? I I I found it very odd that I was there in the first
place. And I for for books
here, it was it was a it was like a gala event that they were
looking for. It wasn't strictly Teamsters there. It was like
Teamsters, their families, and so on. So it was like fundraiser. Like, it was all
these things all wrapped up into 1. But if you just sat there and
you read the room, you know for a fact certain
people were there for a very particular reason. And,
like, this person had to meet this person. I saw some people from our,
our our, state government offices there.
Jesan, I'm not saying anything good, bad, or indifferent about the Teamsters Union. I'm just
saying that I I know for a fact that there were certain people from the
governor's office that was there because certain people from the Teamsters Union was going to
be there. And I could see them going off into corners of the rooms and
stuff, and I was like, So this is
real. Like, this that's all it's the
only thing that went Tom my head was like Everything I ever saw in Donnie
Brasco was actually true. I'm just gonna bite my
tongue and bite my lip and whatever else I have to make leaders so I
don't say anything. So so okay. Okay. So so in those kinds of
situations, I've been in I've been at that kind of party before as well.
You're you're hyper aware of where you're sitting in the hierarchy.
Oh, sure. Yes. And you're hyper aware also of where not to screw up.
And you don't, but but but you're but then you have to balance that with
the idea that you have no clue where you could screw up. Yeah.
Yeah. You could screw up just by going over and talking to the wrong person,
and you have no idea that you just screwed up.
I don't know what to do with that. But but, again, I think that those
dynamics still exist, still exist. You know? I I think in
certain environments, I think, like, when you're I think, you know, where I see it
sometimes, I again, I I brought up this one particular, but I've been to others
that were not so drastic. Right? Yeah. They still it still exist.
A lot of charitable galas are like this
today. It's very who's there? Who's
who was invited that didn't show up and that's, not, like, noticeable. Right?
Like and there's some there's some caveats to all that and who knows
it and who notices it and who I I definitely think in
that in that nonprofit gala
world, that's still very strong. I I think that is it's I think it's
actually very strong comparatively speaking to other parties.
So let me ask this last question. So in our egalitarian
time when everybody can be everybody can
be everything and anything and anybody can choose to be whatever it is they wanna
be and we're all egalitarian. Okay. Fine. It's still women
running that system. Oh, yes. Yes.
It's like, I'll tell you if I'm going to that party
and it's a gala for a nonprofit and I've been
invited for a very specific reason, I got to admit,
I'm not going to the dude who's the executive director. He doesn't know
anything. Yeah. I'm going to the woman who planned the
party. Right. Yeah. And I'm going to ask her why am I here?
Like, what do you want? That's the directness part. Why am I here?
What do you want me to do? And, of course, you know, if you're
in a a a southern situation, they'll just tell you, oh, sugar,
just go ahead and enjoy yourself, which that means you better be on your better
be on your p's and q's. Bless your heart.
That's right. It doesn't really mean by the way, for our Yankee listeners, it doesn't
mean bless your heart. But It doesn't mean anything good. Let me just say that.
It doesn't mean anything good. Okay.
One last question. How do leaders read the room? How does a leader read the
room if they're in a if they're in a room full of Teamsters or a
room full of nonprofit gala driven apparatchiks,
and have no idea why they're there, how do how does a leader read the
room? Because many leaders struggle with this, particularly high performing leaders who tend
to be, I think, a little bit more on the spectrum towards autism fourth
maybe even towards Asperger's and maybe don't don't
pick up those social clues nearly as quickly, but they're really hypercompetent
at what they do. How does a leader because this is a real challenge question.
How does a leader read the room like that? I well, first first
of all, I think it starts way before that. I think I think if you're
invited to that type of environment and you're a leader, the 2 you
there are 2 things you need to do before you even get there, is you
need to know the the guest list and who's gonna be there ahead of time
so you can then go look at them, find them out,
search them online, understand who they are. If you're in that environment, you need to
know what you're walking into way before you go you even have an opportunity to
read the room. Once you get there, then it's
really matter and by the way, doing that, knowing the guest
list and then being able to check them out online, you should have a
you yourself should have a pretty good idea of why you're
there based on who's also there. Right? So there's gonna be there's gonna be
sure tell signs where again, if you're a a CEO of a Fourth
500 company and there are 20 other CEOs of Fortune 500 companies there,
you're in good company with yourself because you're not that's what they're targeting.
Right? So you probably already know half these people because you're watching that
Fourth 500 Libby, and you're you're following them fourth, you know,
whether it's on x or you're following them on on LinkedIn or whatever. You're
signed up for their newsletter for crying out loud. You you might even invest in
some of their companies. Whatever. But you're gonna have you're gonna have a better understanding
of not how do you read the room,
but where and why you're reading the room is way more relevant at that point.
Right? So you're gonna go in and and again so
I did this, that gala that I was talking to you about. I was
kinda my my brother-in-law was a Teamster, so that's and
he was somewhere in the he was not in charge. Don't get
me wrong. But he was not a he was not just a regular, I'm paying
my dues kinda guy. I don't know what the I don't know what the I
don't know what the layers are in there, but he was somewhere up in the
middle of the layer of of hierarchy. Not important
enough to mention is, I guess, my point. Right? But, again, when I was invited
to this thing, I was like, oh, so who's gonna be there? And he's like,
I have no idea. And so I went to the the event page, the the
the the website, the web URL page that they had, and I
started looking at what type of event it was and all the guest
speakers. Now the who the guest speakers were were gonna tell me who else was
gonna be in the room. Right? So, again, like I mentioned, people from the governor's
office, economic development people were gonna be there. So I'm like, oh,
okay. Now I have an an idea of the types of
personalities that are gonna be in the room. And I, by the way,
am not a teamster. I'm not in the union at all. I have no idea
who any of these people are. So my role was simply just to be there
and shut up. Like, really, honestly, just be there and be be a fly on
the wall. My I'm I'm I'm a guest of my brother-in-law, so I'm I'm
there as a guest. So when I started reading The Room, I was
more, like, fascinated about, oh, that person's talking to that person. I didn't
know that govern I didn't know that aide knew that person. I
so I started looking at it from that perspective, and then I the introductions
that I made to myself from from myself to other people were very minimal. I
was very calculated on who I actually spoke Tom, kinda to your point
earlier about, like, you don't wanna make the mistake, right, of talking to the wrong
person. So I I kind of avoided Teamster people and went straight to
the economic development people. Like, I wanted Tom I I was like, okay. So now
I know who that is. I I was very very calculated about who
I didn't need to meet everybody in the room. I was only book I was
I was looking to meet 2 or 3 people that I thought would be
impactful to my career or my company at the Tom, the the company
that I owned at the time. So I think to your to your
point, how do they read the room? It's re it's it's way ahead of that.
They have to readers. They have to research. They have to know. They have to
understand. And then they they should have some sort of mission in their brain as
to who they want. Now that being said, that doesn't mean that the other side
of the coin doesn't impact you. And people that are doing the same thing that
really wanna meet you, they may not be on your radar. So you gotta plan
you have to actually account for some of that as well and make sure you
leave some time to for people to come to you and and versus you
just constantly being on the on the on the take on the It
is interesting that with, like, more and more like, with the with the
saturation of social media that we have with people just entertaining
and engaging and and and all of that and and connecting, I guess, with each
other, we've had a decline in the ability of people to be able to
network effectively. Sure. And I
think it's because we have also forgotten we've had it because we have that
we've had that subsequent decline in doing your research, preparing
with due diligence, and then, of course,
being polite in reading the room, you know, and
understanding what that what that politeness is. We've had decline in all
those skill sets, and then I think we need to I I think
those are the skill sets that separate people who are
just Tom your point about your your brother-in-law at the time, people
who are just worker bees versus people who are in the hierarchy versus people who
are actually running stuff. It's those skill sets of networking that kind
of that make that separation. Alright.
Good advice. Back to the book, back to war and peace.
So we're gonna pick up here with, in volume 1 part 1, we're going to
pick up a chapter 6 at a,
well, I'm going to pick up a chapter 6 with a,
with an example one of 2 examples that we're gonna talk about today. An
example of human, inadequacy.
You only have 2. Oh, I only have 2. Fourth it's early in
the book. It's early in the 1400 pages. I've only got 2. It's early. Got
it. Okay. Trust me. There would trust me. There will be more.
It was past 1 o'clock when Pierre left his friend. On one of those
limpid white nights typical of Petersburg in June, Pierre got into a higher
cab with every intention of going home. But the nearer he got, the more he
realized it would be impossible to get to sleep on a night like this
when it was more like evening or morning. You could see right down
the empty streets. On the way, Peter remembered that the old
gambling school would be meeting at Anatoli and Kurigan's that night,
and it would usually lead to a drinking session followed by one of Pierre's favorite
pastimes. It would be nice to go Tom, he thought, but
then he remembered that he had promised prince Andre he wouldn't go there again.
But as so often happens with people who might be described as spineless,
he felt such a strong urge for one more shot at the old debauchery that
he decided to go. And it suddenly occurred to him that his
promise was invalid anyway because he'd already promised prince Anatole that he would
go before promising Andrei that he wouldn't. Then he began to think that all
promises like that were relative. They had no definite meaning, especially if you imagine
that tomorrow you might be dead or something strange might happen, that there would be
no difference between honesty and dishonesty. Pierre was very
prone to this kind of speculation, which destroyed all his resolutions
and intentions. He went to Kuragin's. Pause.
That is a perfect example of relativistic thinking, by the way, when you have no
moral core. That's what Tolstoy is getting at here.
Back to the book. He drove up to the front of a
mansion near the horse guards' barracks where Anatoli lived, went up the well lit
steps in the staircase and walk in through an open door. There was no one
in the vestibule. Empty bottles, cloaks and overshoes were scattered about everywhere. The
place reeked of drink and the distance you could hear people talking and
shouting. They had finished playing cards and supper was over.
Pause by the way. This is like 4:30 in the morning, by the way. So
that's the other thing I want you to understand before it's about to happen here.
Kids, listeners, nothing good happens in
the world after 2 o'clock in the morning. Just keep that in
mind. Back to the book.
Pierre threw off his cloak and went into the first room where
there were some leftovers from supper. And a servant, thinking that no one could see
him, was downing half empty glasses on the side. From the 3rd room
came great roars of laughter, the sound of familiar voices shouting,
and a bear growling.
8 or 9 young men were jostling by each other by an open
window. 3 others were playing with a bear cub. Yes. I
said a bear cub. 1 of them yanking its chain and scaring
the others with it. A huddle of Sorrells cried 1. No holding on to
the window, shouted another. My money's on Dolkhoff, shouted a third. You can't
witness her again. Forget that bear. There's a bear on here. There's a bet on
here. Down and 1 or you've lost, cried a 4th. Yakov, bring
us a bottle, Yakov, shouted Anatoli himself, a tall, handsome man,
standing in his shirt sleeves in the middle of the group. His fine shirt front
unbuttoned down to mid chest. Hang on, gentlemen. Look who's come. It's old Pierre. Good
man. He had turned towards Pierre. From the window, a blue
eyed man of average height, conspicuously sober amidst the drunken
uproar, called out clearly, come on over here. Sort out your bets.
This was Dolikov, an officer in the Semignano regiment, a
notorious gambler and swaggering madcap at present living
with Anatoly. Pierre beamed at the company. I don't get it. What's
happening? Hang on. He's not drunk. Get him a bottle, said Anatoli.
He took a glass from the table and walked over to Pierre. First things first.
Have a good drink. Pierre proceeded to down glass after
glass, looking doubtfully at the drunken revelers who were crowding around the window again
and listening to what they were saying. Anatoli kept his glass topped and
told him that Dolikoff had made a bet with an English sailor by the name
of Stevens, who was passing through, that he, Dolikoff, could drink
a bottle of rum sitting on the 3rd floor windowsill with his legs dangling
outside. Come on. Finish that bottle, essays Anatoli, giving
Pierre the last glass, sir. I'm not letting you go. No. I don't want it,
said Pierre, shoving Anatoli away, and he went over to the window.
Belikov had a grip on the Englishman's arm, and he was meticulously explaining the
terms of the bet, looking mainly at Anatole and Pierre.
Dollacov was a man of average height in his mid twenties with curly hair and
bright blue eyes. Like all infantry officers, he wore no mustache so that his mouth,
the most striking thing about him, was fully revealed. The lines of that mouth were
very finely curved. The upper lip closed sharply down in the middle wedge over,
like, a firm lower one, and the two corners of the mouth always worked itself
into something like a double smile. All this together with a decisive
brazen shrewd look in his eyes was so impressive that no one could fail to
notice his face. Volokhav was a man of few resources and
no contacts, And yet somehow, despite the fact that
Anatoly doled out his money in tens of 1,000, Dolokov lived with him and
managed to present himself in such a way that Anatoly himself and everybody who knew
him or who knew them admired Dolokov more, than
Anatoly. Dolokov gambled on everything and
usually won. However, however much he drank, he
always kept a clear head. Both of them, Kuragin and Dolokov, were
curiously infamous figures along the fast and loose young
men of Petersburg. The bottle of rum
was brought. 2 servants clearly flustered and intimidated by shouts and
directions issuing from gentlemen on all sides were the process of removing the section of
the window frame that prevented anyone from sitting on the outer sill. Anatoli
swaggered across to the window, eager to smash something. He shoved the servants out of
the way and pulled at the frame, but it wouldn't give. He broke one of
the panes. Come on, Hercules. You have a go, he said, turning to
Pierre. Pierre grabbed a hold of the cross piece and heaved, broke the
oak frame with a crash, and wrenched it out. Get the lot out
or they'll think I'm holding on to Dolikoff. The Englishman's bragging, isn't he? Is
everything alright, Tom, said Pierre, watching Dolikoff go over to the
window, bottle in hand. The light of the sky shown
with the merging of dusk and dawn. Dolikov jumped on the
windowsill still holding his bottle. Listen, he shouted, standing there
facing back into the room. Silence fell.
I bet you he spoke in French so the Englishman could understand what he was
saying, and his French wasn't too good. I bet you 50 imperials.
Make it a 100? He added, turning to the Englishman. No.
50, said the Englishman. Alright. 50 it is. I could drink
a whole bottle of rum without taking it away from my lips. I'll drink it
sitting outside the window there. He bent down and pointed to the downward
sloping ledge on the outside without holding onto anything. Is that it?
Yes, said the Englishman. Anatoli turned to the sailor, took
hold of a button on his coat, and looked down at him. He was quite
fourth. And went out through the went through the terms of the bet once again
in English. Hang on a minute, Shadi Dola call calling for attention by
banging the bottle of the windowsill. Hang on, Corrigan. Listen. If anybody else could do
it, I'll pay him a 100 imperials. Alright? The sailor nodded with no
indication of whether he accepted this new bet or not. And it totally hung
on to him, although the sailor nodded to say he fully understood. Anatole kept on
translating Dolikov's words into English. A skinny young lifeguardsman
who had lost a lot that evening climbed above the windowsill, stuck his head out
and looked down. Ugh, he said staring at the pavement. A tad
shut, cried Dolyakov, yanking him back in. So he tripped over his spurs and
came tumbling down awkwardly into the room.
Standing, the bottle on the sill to keep you within easy
reach, Golokov climbed slowly and deliberately out through the window and let his legs
dangle down outside. Bracing himself with both hands against the sides of the
frame, he settled himself, sat down, let go with his
hands, shuffled slightly to the right then to the left and reached for the bottle.
Anatoly brought 2 candles and put them on the window ledge even though it was
quite light. Dolakove's back with his white shirt and his curly head were
lit up from both sides. Everybody swarmed around the window, the English
sailor at the front. Pierre smiled and said nothing. 1
of the party, a bit older than the rest, suddenly pushed his way through with
a scared and angry face and tried to grab Adelecom's shirt. Gentlemen, this is crazy.
He'll get it killed, did this more sensible man.
And it totally stopped him. Don't touch him. You'll put him off and then he
will get killed. What about that? Belikov looked around,
chipped his position and was still supporting himself with both hands. If anybody tries
to get ahold of me again, he said, forcing out the words 1 by 1
through tight, thin lips, I'll chuck him down there
writers then.
Whereupon he turned around again to face the outside, took his hands away, picked up
the bottle, and put it to his mouth, bent his head book, and held his
free hand up in the air to balance himself.
1 of the servants who had been gone clearing of the broken glass stood
transfixed Tom the stooping posture, his eyes glued to the window and Dullico's
book, and Atolli stood erect staring. The Englishman winced as he watched for one side.
The man who had tried to stop it all had rushed into a corner and
now lay on the sofa facing the wall. Pierre covered his eyes. A feeble
forgotten smile lingered on his lips. His face was now full of fear and horror.
Nobody spoke. Pierre took his hands away from his eyes, and there was Dolikov still
sitting in the same position only his head was bent so far back that the
curls on his neck touched a short collar and the hand with the bottle rose
higher and higher, trembling with the effort. The bottle was draining nicely and went higher
as it did so, bending the head further back. Why is it
taking so long, thought Pierre. More than a half hour seemed to have passed. Suddenly,
Dolikov's spine jerk back and his arm trembled nervously enough to shift his whole body
as he sat on the sloping ledge. He slipped and his arm and head shook
even more violently as he struggled. One hand rose to clutch at the windowsill, but
fell back again. Pierre shut his eyes again and swore he would never open them.
Then suddenly he was aware of things beginning to move round about him. He glanced
up. There was Dolikov, standing on the window ledge, his pale
face full of delight, all gone. Tossed
the bottle to the Englishman, caught it neatly. Golikov jumped down from the
window, stinking of rum. Well done, bravo. That's a
real bet. You're a right w r, came the shouts from all sides. The
Englishman took out his purse and counted out the money. Dolica stood there
frowning in silent. Pierre left to the windowsill. Gentlemen, anybody betting? I could do that,
he shouted suddenly. I don't even need a bet. No. I don't. Just tell him
to get me a bottle. I'll do it. Just get me a bottle. Go on.
Let him do it, said with a grin. What are you, mad?
No one will let you. You get dizzy walking downstairs in various protests.
I'll drink it. Give me that bottle of Rob Roypierre, thumping his table with deliberate
drunken gesture, and he climbed up into the well of the window.
People snatched their arms, but he was so strong. He sent them flying if they
came anywhere near. No. You'll never talk him out of it like that, said
Anatole. Hang on. I know how to fool him. Listen, Pierre. I
accept your bet. But for tomorrow night, right now, we're all
gonna, you know, go on to you know where. Right. Let's
go, Gilpin. Let's go. We can take Bruin with us.
And he grabbed the bear, hugged it, lifted it
right off the floor, and took it to waltzing
around the room.
I went to my fair share of drunken parties in college.
Yes. I did. And I know Tom did as well. Maybe not maybe Tom wasn't
the one drinking. And sometimes I was drinking and sometimes I wasn't. I was the
sober one in the corner. I really was.
I saw well, to paraphrase
from the replicant in Blade Runner played by Rucker Hauer,
I saw things that you wouldn't believe.
And it looks like Tolstoy did as well
when he was engaged in drunken shenanigans when he was
in college. And by the way, that is the right term to use even in
Russian. It is indeed shenanigans.
Leo Tolstoy, was born on the 9th September
18 28, and he died on the 20th November 1910.
And he is, as we've said before on this podcast, along with Dostoevsky,
Hyrganyev, who we just readers book, fathers and sons, and
Anton Chekhov, who we covered last year, his short Sorrells, one of the 4
greatest Russian writers of the 19th century and one of the greatest Russian writers of
all time. And he is the greatest Russian writer of all time because of exactly
that little piece that I read just there. That
was almost cinematic in how it was put
together. He received nominations for the Nobel Prize in Literature
every year from 1902 Tom 1906 and for the Nobel Prize
Prize in 1901, 190 2 190 9.
Beginning in his league teams, Tolstoy wrote consistently for his
entire life. There wasn't a time when he stopped
writing. He documented his life, the life of the Russian people.
And eventually, as we can see in this piece in war and peace,
life of the overall human experience. From
childhood, boyhood, and youth to Anna Karenina and, of course, War and
Peace, Tolstoy used the genres of literature, all of them,
including critique, to explore not only the depths of other
people, but also the depths of himself. By the
way, Pierre, in this example, Anatole and
Dolikov, along with all of the other books, are
serve as a at least in Tolstoy's time, served as a modern
example of the dissolute youth when things were better in the
past, when the youth knew how to behave and not engage in
drunken revelry with, with
bear cubs. Oh, and bottles of rum. So my
question to Tom is this.
Let's start with this. What experience have you had in your
life that you would never write down where you would have to change all the
names to protect the guilty? I'm not gonna tell you on here either. Why would
I do that? If I wasn't gonna write it down, I'm not gonna I'm not
gonna put it out on the Internet.
Let me I'll I'll I'll I'll circumvent the question like
this. Circumvent the question. Go ahead. Regardless
of the happenings of the turning, now those of you who don't know Boston,
there's a very popular road called Rutherford Avenue, which goes from
Boston outside into a neighboring Libby. And
then if you go through that neighboring Libby, I lived probably 2 cities
away. And I remember now if we all understand how
the painting on pavement works Mhmm. There's a double yellow
line that goes in the middle of the street that you're not supposed to
cross, The
most I remember of that evening was me walking on that
double yellow line singing out loud, follow the yellow brick
road. I'll just leave it at that.
I will say I will say publicly for my part. I will say publicly for
my part. I had so many drunken
shenanigans in college that at one time, during
a particularly street
festival, the
EMTs were called to engage with me.
I was fine, but she engaged with me to make sure that I was okay.
And one of the MTs was a classmate of mine,
and she literally said to me, I've never seen you sober.
And then she walked away. So so you've
never seen fourth sober. So listen to this. So I could probably count on one
hand in my entire lifetime that I've that I've had situations like
that. Mhmm. Yeah. One hand. Let me yeah. Because like I was joke I
wasn't I wasn't joking earlier when I say most
times I was the guy in the corner of the room completely
sober, making sure that nobody else
Died. Drove home drove home drunk or got into a fight or
I was I was the I was the I was the party dad. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. For all time first, most times. So I was the I was the
Englishman in the corner going not in the corner, but an Englishman going, well, I
guess I'm gonna pay. Let's see how this goes. Exactly.
Well, we're here now. We might as well go all the way. Like, that's you
know? In fourth penny and for a pound, Longshanks. What are we doing here?
I had plenty of those friends. And I and I and I know
how to manage them In the in the
so one of the things that I find funny, I so I thought your question
was gonna be more, you know, business related or leadership related because you're
there. Don't worry. We're wandering in that direction. Okay. Because there was a point
in time there where where the the person I
forget the names at this point. I apologize. But the person who stops the guy
from taking the bet, right, that that wants to bring the bottle around the fall.
And he says, no. That's for I'll bet you that, but it's for tomorrow night.
Right? Like, that that that is a great example of
just knowing knowing how to read the
personalities and knowing when to it's
it's like that old Kenny Rogers song. Right? Like, know when to hold them, when
to fold them. And, yeah, if you can if you can base that on the
personalities in the room, that's leadership in a in a nutshell.
Right? Being able to get things done without having to
really force the issue. Right? You're just yeah. I I'll tell
you. Rather than rather than laying in the corner on the sofa with, like, fourth
curled I I can I imagine the guy curled up on the sofa like his
face turned to the wall? Yeah. Because he's like, he doesn't wanna see. He's like,
I don't I don't wanna know. It's gonna be a nightmare. I I I
look at it the same way, like, the the there's a couple of different versions
of parenting out there. Right? Whereas, like, one parent essays, do
this because I said so, and you're gonna do it because if you don't, there
are consequences because I said so. Right? And then there are other parents
that overexplain to the nth, like, to the nth
degree and, like okay. I'm I'm not making fun of
those people. Please the face. But and then they have the other
people that say that's very clear and say, well, why
don't you tell me why you think I'm asking you to do that? And then
they take the kid's response and go, exactly. See now you're gonna go do that
because you know why. It's that reverse psychology
thing. Anyway.
I the reason why I want to read all that is because it opens with
a bear and it closes with a bear. A bear. Yeah. And I couldn't
quite wrap my arms around that part. Yeah. I
never went to parties with bears. Yeah. No.
Like, I would've I would've declined all invitations.
Same. You know, if if my if my one of my good friends, and
he knows who he is, if he's listening to this, he knows who he is.
If he had ever invited me to a party with a bear, I would have
said, I think I'll stay home. Did you have a good
time? That seems like something that you would need to be involved in.
Okay. Couple of ideas that come out of that. Yes. The reading of the
room, being able to manage people. Dolikov
is an interesting character, and he's gonna become more interesting later on as you go
through war and peace. But he is the guy who and and
Tolstoy describes him almost perfectly. I loved this I loved this, description
of him. Dolikov was a
man who was of average height. He describes his mouth and all this other
stuff. And then he says, Dolikov was a man of very few resources
and no contacts. He's got no network. Right?
And yet somehow, despite the fact that Anatoli doled out his
money in tens of 1,000, which is the guy that was talking to
Pierre and kinda talked about the ledge and said, we'll go do this tomorrow night.
So Anatoli is the guy who owns the, owns the the the building where
all this is going down. He presented
this one he said to thousands. Dolikov lived with him and managed to present himself
in such a way that Anatoly himself and everybody who knew them
admire Dolikov more than Anatoly. Dolikov
gambled on everything and usually won. However much he drank, he always kept a clear
head. Both of them, Kuragin and Dolikov, were currently
infamous figures among the fast and loose young men of Petersburg.
He was the charisma guy. Right? Like Right. So this is a question.
The the the the hierarchy the the the hierarchy between men, we don't
have to actually often talk about this, but the hierarchy of dominance among
men. So obviously, you know, you have alphas. People already people know what
that term means. But you also
have the young man, and Dolikov was one of these people who
don't care about the hierarchy. Mhmm. Like, they don't care about the alphas.
They don't care about if we're gonna rank up, like, the deltas who are just
your Tom Sorrells of the the the the party
fathers. They don't care about the gammas who are like, why am I here? I
hate all of you. I could be playing PlayStation at home. Like, why are we
here? And there's a bear. What are we doing? Right? And they'll turn the
bear on you in a heartbeat. That's what a gamma will do. But you've got
people who are outside of that hierarchy, and and Tolstoy writes about him. It's so
do a lot of other leadership lot of other writers. In the sun also writers,
it was the character Mike in there who just don't care
about the hierarchy at all. Like, they just don't care. They're gonna do
what they're gonna do. They're gonna drink what they're gonna drink. They're going to have
relationships with wherever it is they're going to have relationships with. And if you like
it. Cool. And if you don't, well, that's cool. Like
we can do this all day, baby. Hey, you know, and those
tend to be books who struggle
will not struggle, but they wander from hierarchy to hierarchy, to
hierarchy and Dola Cove is that is kind of that
character.
They also tend to be viewed by people who are who are trying to climb
to the top of the hierarchy, particularly among men. They tend to be viewed disagreeably
fourth like, I don't really know what's going on with that guy. So
I guess the question is what's the best if you're a
leaders, what's the best sort of posture to adopt to the
hierarchy of dealing with other men? But they don't really ever talk about that. Like,
we talk a lot about we talked about women a little bit on this podcast,
but specifically about the male hierarchy because there is there is that
male social, I guess, social sexual, I guess, is how you can frame it,
but social hierarchy. Like, how do you. Why am that with
other dudes? If you are not the alpha and you don't care about any of
that. That's a that's a
tough question. So for me, I think this is a really, really we could
probably have a podcast episode just on this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because
because I first of all, the idea
fourth me, to me anyway, of having that whole alpha, this alpha, that
is ridiculous. Because guess what? When we all
cut open, we all believe red. It's you you are a human being just the
way I am. You I am not putting anybody above me. In the same
sense, I'm also not putting anybody below me. I don't step all over people
either. Right? Like, I'm not just gonna say, well, that guy's he's he's a, you
know, he's he's a a beta. Like, he he doesn't care. He's he's you know,
you can walk all over him. He's not gonna push back. And I was always
that kid in school that protected the kids that the bullies wanted to pick
on all the time. Yeah. I I I can
most of the actual fist fights I've ever been in in my life where it
had nothing to do with me. Mhmm. It's always been like I I I was
always that guy that would come across some bully picking on a kid, and I
would step in going, what are you doing? Like, why are we picking on this
kid? Stop picking on this kid. And then we would get into a fight, and
then we would walk away friends because inevitably, I never
really lost a fight. But that's alright. That's different. But that's not the point. My
the point is I think be I think because of that too and
and and I don't wanna get too deep into the weeds here because like, you
have a martial arts background. I have a martial arts background. I think some of
that plays into it and into effect too because I don't care
who I walk into the room with. I don't care who you think you are.
I'm not taking crack from you. I don't care if you think you're alpha or
not. Now that being said, somebody who
thinks they're alpha that comes at me in a particular way, I will
definitely listen. I'll sit there and listen. I'll jab jaw with you all
day long. I'll I'll I'll have I'll have your opinions come down to me all
all you want In the in the vice versa, so I this is a
really hard question for me to answer because I've always fought against
that that alpha thing. Right? Like, I've always fought against
that that essays, you you don't have to be that. And if you think you
are that, you can if you feel the necessity
to be that, there's still a way to do it that you can make other
people feel inclusive and then you make other feel other people feel
value. Alpha does not equate to a
value higher than other people in my opinion. Okay.
The fact that and I understand general society disagrees with me and there
are alpha people out there, and I get that. Right? But the fact that you
call somebody an alpha does not mean that their value is higher
than anybody anybody else's. So I am
of the thought that if you are claiming you're an
alpha, you're not. Well, that too. If you have to say
it, you ain't it. Yeah. Like, you just
you just you ain't. If you have to say it, you ain't it. That's number
1. Number 2,
if I don't care about that status
and I'm going to operate in the room anyway, and this is one of the
things I learned in, in the midst of all my drunken shenanigans in
college, this is one of the social cultural things I did pick up. If I
just operate regardless of what
anybody else is doing. And I
stay really focused on that thing. Like, if I'm going to a
party and I know there's going to be shots of Jaeger and I know that
I don't have a good background with any of
that. I'm not drinking any of that.
And so someone's gonna come to me. Here's what's gonna happen. Someone's gonna come to
me. By the way, cops do this Tom to you. They'll offer you a piece
of gum. This is why a cop offers you a piece of gum before an
interrogation. They want to see if
you're going to like break and respond to that.
Right. Now if I know I'm operating
regardless of whatever else is happening because I've got my own agenda, go ahead. You
could offer me a Jaeger shot. That's fine. What I'm going to say is a
very simple fourth, like, no. No. I don't want that.
I won't offer up an option for an alternative. I'm not
going to make a suggestion to make you feel better. I'm just gonna say
no. But finally, it drives my wife
crazy when I will do this. It's social functions sometimes, because people will, they'll
offer me something like no.
Then you just wait. Right. And you just wait, and you watch them get uncomfortable
because you you didn't offer them another out. Right? Just no. I don't want that
thing. You don't want anything
else? No. I just I didn't say that. I just said I don't want that
thing. Did you fourth you're offering something else, like, let's talk, but you're
you didn't you just offered me this one thing. Okay. By the way, cops, will
they offer you a piece of gum in an interrogation or a cup of coffee?
Say no. That's the keyword.
Keyword is no. I think that
that act right there separates
people who, to your point, play in the hierarchy of people who don't. Because there's
a lot of people who do try to climb above other
people. And the person who I think, anyway, the leader who can
watch that and not succumb to it is the leader who's going to be successful.
It's also the leader you wanna follow. Right. Yeah. Writers
like somebody somebody who is somebody who is, like, somebody who
is clear you know what the best way I I I there was an exercise.
I I, I went through it. It was a a management training
program that I was in. It was very young. There was about 30 of us
in the room. And the the the instructor,
the the person who was running the the turning said, I need 3
groups of 10. You guys figure out which, you know, which 10 you wanna
be in or whatever. And I said nothing. I literally just walked on the
side of the room and just waited and watched. And I saw,
okay, these people, you know, whatever, and I'm like, this group has 10, this
group has 10, this group has 9. They're missing me. And I was like,
I don't wanna be a part of that group. So I went over and tapped
somebody in the shoulder. I was like, excuse me. Do you mind if I step
in here? They're they only have 9. They could use somebody over there. And they
went and they moved. And and and the instructor was
like, okay. You, come here. I was like, what did I
do? What did I do? I didn't do anything. And she's like, no. She's
like, you didn't do anything wrong. I just wanna point this out. And she, like,
made a point of it that was like, like, when you're
when you're in kinda man like, why are you jumping head first
in it? Like, why aren't you to your point, I we're we said read the
room about a 1,000 times on this episode of this podcast, but but,
like, why aren't you trying to understand where you
fit best and then placing, like, placing yourself in there
versus just following the crowd around until something just
stops and happens. Right? Right. Yeah. And and so and then
and and she so then the exercise got even better
where it's like, alright. Out of the 10 you know, we have 3 groups of
10. They give us all this kind of task with no instruction.
I want you guys to accomplish x, whatever that was. And,
again, I sat there. I was listening. Now I I picked the group I I
picked for a very particular reason. I I knew most of these people. I knew
their strengths and weaknesses because we were we had been in
we we had been in the same company with each other for a long Tom,
and I I'd known them. So they started talking we do this. We do
that. It's 15 people going, we should just oh, no. Fifties.
All 9 of the other people were, like, throwing in ideas, just throwing in
ideas. I'm sitting there. I'm listening. I'm watching. I'm going, none of this is gonna
work. Right. It's like so I just said I go, hold on a
second, guys. I said, can I just ask a question? They're like, do you have
an idea? And I go, no. No. No. I have a question. I don't have
an idea. I have a question. What makes you think each
of these things are gonna work? Can you just explain why
they're gonna work? And And as soon as they started talking, then other people were
like, well, no. No. No. That's not gonna work because of this. Oh, no. That's
not gonna work because of that. And you know what? You're right. And then okay.
So we can agree on this and that. And I was like, okay. So we've
eliminated, like, 4 out of the 9 here. Great. So now out of the other
5, everyone thinks that all the 5 these 5 are gonna be okay. And
I just I just I was just asking again, I didn't tell them to do
anything. I was not I was just I was just trying to understand
because now, of course, for the this purpose,
this was a competitive situation. There was a prize there was a
prize involved at the which team came out with the best the best
solution to this problem. Yeah. Well, I like to
win. Right? I I may not I may not claim to be
alpha, but I like to win. I'm very competitive when it comes
to winning something and and being, you know
and I'm I'm very team oriented, so I had no problem looking at the rest
of the team. I did not wanna, quote unquote, be in charge
fourth I had no interest, but I had an interest in winning.
Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That had more power. That had more power
to me than trying to be alpha or whatever. So I was like, okay. Now
we got these and I just worked through this process, and they were like, alright.
And then when the the instructor came back, time was up, and she goes, alright.
Each group has to pick a person to to present this, and they
want, you know, who's gonna be the leader? Who's gonna be the leader of this?
And all 9 of them said, Tom, you should be the leader. Go do this.
And I said, no. No. No. Time out. They want somebody that's gonna present this
in a way that's gonna help us win. I think I think Mary should do
it. Mhmm. Mary it was Mary's original idea. She had the
best formation of the of the blah blah blah blah blah. Right? Whatever. Mhmm. Like,
we should have Mary do it. And they were like, oh, okay. That's good. Alright.
We'll have Mary do it. And we ended up winning that competition thing. Mhmm. And
when the instructor asked the group because then they they did this, like,
this, like, debriefing thing separately. So all the all the groups went into
separate rooms, and the instructors there was, like, 4 instructors for fourth this thing
was, like, a a 2 week long, like, deep management seminar
thing where they did it was 8 hours a day, 2 weeks, and it was
for a very big company, which I really appreciate, by the way. They did a
really nice job with this management training. But,
but anyway so they go to someone in separate rooms, and when the instructor came
in, they were like, oh, so Mary, you're the leader. And Mary's like, no. No.
Tom's probably gonna be I would think Tom would be the leader. I was just
the presenter. Mhmm. And they were they were like, okay. So I'm confused
now because we asked you guys to have your leader present, and you put
Mary up front. And there was this huge discussion, and we ended up
winning simply for that because we didn't take
because they gave very little instruction, but yet we
looked at it from a like, a very high level management
problem solving process. Right. We we were taking we
weren't worried like, we won not because our idea was better,
because the process we used in the process we get there and then and how
we presented it was the best option that our group had.
It wasn't so it was very interesting. So to your back back back to your
point, it was like I I think that it's it's
I I think that, like, that the whole idea of
a of a hierarchy now take out the
corporate hierarchies that we are definitely required to have. You need to have somebody
in charge. Like, c the c level, the VP level, the management level,
director levels, all that stuff makes sense to me. We need to and but but
I think what we where we lack is the process in which
we take in order to promote those people into those positions.
Mhmm. Yeah. My my world is the most is the
absolute most horrific at this. If you take
because you have a sales team. Right? Mhmm. You have you have 12
salespeople. Your sales manager quits. You go, oh,
Haysan's our number one salesperson. Number 1 salesperson. He's the
manager now. And then it doesn't it doesn't work
because it it's it's somebody like, that number one salesperson
oftentimes doesn't wanna manage. They just wanna do their they just wanna sell. They
like, they're the number one salesperson for a reason because they love it.
They love doing what they do. They don't wanna deal with the rest of it.
And I think that's part of the the real problem is understanding
that it doesn't need to be a hierarchy of personality. It needs to be a
hierarchy of problem solving skills. The problem solving skills.
Yeah. Yeah. No. I would agree with that. Yeah. I rambled I
rambled for way Tom long. Well, no. But, I mean, my well, myself and John
Hill have talked about this because he's also in in sale a consultive selling.
Yeah. And, and we've talked about this on previous podcasts.
Jesan it is and and and, honestly,
that's part of what he focuses on is how do you take those,
that that person who is a leader in a very
particular not even a leaders, a producer in a very particular
space and turn them into, turn them into a leaders.
Because now they're going from one type of hierarchy. We're
gonna draw it and draw it altogether. They're moving from one particular
hierarchy to another hierarchy with very different groups,
and very different metrics of success.
And expectations. And expectations. Correct. Exactly.
Alright. We're rounding the corner here. So back to the book. It's gonna be a
very short piece here, and we're gonna wrap up. So back to the book, back
to, war and peace. We are still in
volume 1, part 1, and, in subsequent
episodes, we will get to volume 1, part 2
and volume 2, part 3 and volume 3, part
4. It just goes on and on folks. So,
hang out. We're gonna be at war and peace for, like I was
saying before, potentially years.
Again, that turning Floyd song on, dark side of the
moon years. Absolutely leaders I've been down here. Most of
us have, though. If you
could name what song that is, send me an email, and I'll send you a
I'll send you a no prize like they used to out of the back of
Marvel Comics back in the day when you had some odd mistake.
Stanley would send you a no prize.
Back to the book, volume 1 part 1 chapter 5.
Very short piece here. Turning Anna Pavlovna for a delightful turning.
The guests began to go home. So this is after Anna Pavlovna's
party, but before Pierre and Anatoli's shenanigans with
Dolikov in the window. And this is, by the way,
where we meet Pierre. Pierre was ungainly, stout, quite
tall, and possessed of a huge of huge red hands. It
was said of him that he had no idea how to enter a drawing room
and was worse still at withdrawing from 1 or saying something nice
as he left. He was also absent minded. He stood up now
picking up a general's nicely plumed 3 quarter hat instead of his own and held
onto it, pulling up the feathers until the general asked for it back. But
all his absent mindedness and his inability to enter a drawing room or talk properly
once inside it were redeemed by his expression of good natured simplicity
and modesty. Anat Pavlovra turned to him, forgiving
his outburst with Christian humility, nodded, and said, I hope we shall see you
again. Well, I also hope you will change your ideas, my dear Monsieur
Pierre. She spoke, but he didn't answer. All he
did was bow and show everyone another of his smiles, a smile that simply said,
never mind ideas. Look at what a nice, good natured, good hearted fellow I am.
And everyone, including Anna Pavlovna, couldn't help but agree.
Prince Andrei had got out in the hall, and as he offered his shoulders to
the servant, ready with his cloak, he listened indifferently to
his wife as she chattered with prince Hippolyte who had come
along with her. Hippolyte stood close to the pregnant little princess
who book so pretty and stared at her through his fourth yet.
Go back inside, Annette. You'll catch colds with literature princess taking leave of Anna Pavlovna.
It is settled then, she added quietly. Anna Pavlovna had managed to have
a few words with Liza about the mass she was setting up between Anatole and
Libby princess's sister-in-law. I'm relying on you, my dear, said Anna. By
the way, pause. That's an example of what Tom was talking about
previously about going to parties and networking with the right people. Right?
Paolona wanted to use her party to
create social connections, for, Saint Petersburg
society and, of course, for Russian society.
Back to the book. I'm relying on you, my dear, said Anna Pablo,
no less quietly. Write to her and let me know how her father sees things.
Au revoir. And she left the hall. Principal
moved in on the little princess Jesan bending down with his face close to her,
started speaking to her in a half whisper. 2 servants, 1
essays, the other his own, stood with the shawl and co waiting for them to
finish talking. The French was incomprehensible to them, but the servant's
face suggested for all the world that they did understand what was being said,
though they would never show it. The princess has always smiled as
she talked and laughed when she listened. I'm so glad I
didn't go to the ambassadors, Prince Hippolyte was saying. Such a bore. This has been
a delightful evening, hasn't it? Delightful. They say it will be a very fine
ball, answered the little princess, drawing up her downy little lip. All our
pretty women will be there. Not all of them. You won't be there, said principal
light with a happy laugh. Then he snatched the shawl from the servant, shoving him
out of the way, and began dripping it around little princess. Either from awkwardness
or deliberately, no one could have said which, He kept his arms around her for
some time after the shawl had been put on, seeming to clasp the young woman
in his embrace. With good grace and still
smiling, she wriggled free, turned and glanced at her husband. Prince
Andrei's eyes were closed. He seemed to be weary and drowsy.
Are you ready? He asked his wife, looking over her head. Prince
Hippolyta hurried into his long coat. It was the last word in fashion going
right down to his heels, and he caught his foot in it as he ran
out onto the steps after the princess. A servant was assisting her into
the carriage. Au revoir, princess, he yelled, his tongue tripping over
things just like his legs. The princess picked up her
gown and took her seat, settling back into the darkness of the carriage while her
husband was arranging his sword. Principal Light pretended to
help, but all he did was get in the way. If you don't mind,
sir, said prince Andre curtly and pointedly in
Russian to principal Light who was standing in his way.
I'll see you soon, Pierre, said the same voice in warm and friendly
tones. The coachman jerked forward, and the carriage rattled
off. Principal Light honked with laughter as he
stood on the steps waiting for the viscount having promised
to drop him off at home.
One of the interesting things about books like War and Peace, and you
see this in a little bit in The Brothers Karamazov because but Dostoevsky
was way more pessimistic and dour than Tolstoy and less romantic.
So he didn't didn't really care about the romance between men and women.
And you kind of get some of it in Anton Chekhov's short stories as well.
Is this idea of the arrangements between men and women and the
relationships between men and women and at a particularly an
aristocratic level, how those relationships
cycle together. And
there's an old school word that I'm going to use here at the end of
the podcast that is sort of being set
up here, describes the relationship
that is being set up. And by the way, Prince Andre
recognizes this, principal light recognizes this,
and the princess, the pregnant princess,
recognizes this as well. And it is a system of
cuckoldry that is being set up. Now
we don't talk about this in polite society in America because,
God forbid, we talk about that in polite society in America. We talk about every
other form of sexual behavior, but not that. We
also don't talk about the nature of how affairs begin
Tom move relationships with each other. And what Tolstoy is setting
up is that as well. By the way, we find out later on
that prince Andre and the pregnant princess are having trouble with their
marriage because prince Andre wants to go off and fight a war,
and his wife who is pregnant wants him to stay at home, and he
has zero interest in staying at home. As a matter of fact,
he tells Pierre, basically, don't ever get married
because women will stop you from having ambition while his
wife is sitting there.
These kinds of things happen in Tolstoy all the time, though. They happen in all
kinds of books he wrote because he was in those drawing rooms and he saw
those relationships between people in Russian culture, and he wrote honestly about
it. And it does create a sense
of low drama, which, of course,
makes for the higher drama that's going to occur later on the
battlefields of Napoleon. Tom makes it a lot sharper,
particularly with what's about to happen to prince Andre and even the
princess.
I guess maybe I would close our episode today
because Tom has to go as do I with this
question. It is gonna be open ended because it's war and peace and it's
1400 pages. So we might as well have an open ended question to end this
episode.
What do we do with those interpersonal human relationships between
men and women that are the the trip writers
that lead to larger things. Because we don't talk about those trip wires in our
culture. We talk about literally everything else, but we
don't talk about the CEO that can't they can't get along
at home fourth every time he goes to a party or she goes to a
party, their partner or their husband or their wife is off
doing something that we don't. And when those things are revealed, as in the case
of Nancy Pelosi and Paul Pelosi, I'll just use those as two examples most recently
in the American public, we all pretend to be shocked and kind of side eye
and move away from it. And yet this is what's been going
on for literally since men and women were created.
Literally. But we can't but in our in our brazenly open
society, we can't talk about this. And that is a weird thing to me. And
what Tolstoy does, this is why it's a throwback book. He
reveals all of that, and he says, no. This is actually what's going on.
He doesn't make a judgment about it. He just says, this is what's going on,
and we don't seem to know what to do with that. It kinda makes us
uncomfortable. It's making Tom uncomfortable right now just having him think about it. Like, it's
up by his face. Oh, I'm not I'm not I wouldn't say uncomfortable. I'm just
trying to I'm trying to figure out what, like, what kind of response I would
have to this because, quite honestly, I'm not I'm really not sure.
Like, I I think I think for me again, this is
really more it's this is a personal
response, not a response of society and and and general generalities,
but I've always found it
I've always found that communication is key. Right? Like, the the
well, first of all, if if my significant other,
cheated on me and my family acted surprised, that
would be my fault for not ever giving them any indication that there was a
problem in the marriage. Right? Like Right. So so I think I think it's
I think there's a I I think the rules are just different
when it comes to people in the public eye. Right? Like, Yeah. Because no matter
no matter how bad things are at home, that forward
facing, they're gonna give you the the they're gonna give you some sort
of facade because they they they
want you to vote for them again. So you're not gonna vote for somebody who
has turmoil at home. You're gonna vote for somebody that's that's showing that
they have all of their stuff together, so to speak. And Well, you
have to see this with the royal family in England. Like Yes. What's her name,
You know, wasn't around whoever Williams,
Kate that that woman, Kate. She wasn't around or whatever. Middleton or
Middleton something. I don't know. I find it annoying that attention to your
family. I find it annoying that I have to know who these people are.
Like, I find it incredibly annoying. But they are the they
are the kind of people that told Sorrells writing about. Yes.
And, you know, there's whispered speculation about this and that and
this and no and the other and all this other kind of stuff. And I,
of course, me, I'm over here in the corner like the kid, like the guy
curled up in the sofa. I'm the guy curled up in the sofa going, I
don't care, into my pillow. Stop yelling at me about
this. Yeah. But they are those kinds of people. And,
like, they weren't voted in, but they're public people. Right.
And by the way, I'm I'm talking about anybody public. It doesn't have to be
a public like, a a voted figure, but think about all the
Hollywood, you know, Hollywood Sorrells that when they break up, everyone's
like, oh my god. I can't believe they broke up. And And you find out
well, because every time they walk on the red carpet, they're hand in hand and
they're smiling and they're they're actors and actresses so that they they're pretending
that everything's okay, and we love them, and we think they're they got the greatest
relationship ever. And and then we find out they break up and then we're like
and we're scratching our head. I I I think go go back
to again, so me personally. Mhmm. Personally, for
me, communication is the key. I
don't want to there's a reason that people say that
the more truthful you are, the better memory you have.
Right? Like, because you don't if if you're not lying and you're trying to
remember all these lies that you're telling your friends and family about your relationship or
about what's going on in your life or whatever, the easier it is to communicate
with them. And the easier it is to communicate with them, the more the more
in tune to you they are. And when when the feces hits
the fan, they're not surprised, and they're there to help
you through it. And they're not they're not surprised, and they're
not they're not and they're and if they're still willing to be a a
willing participant in your recovery through whatever process you just went
through, that's why they're there. That's
why your family and friends are there. Okay. So that's at the
heavy end of this. Yes. What is described in this
passage is what some people during
actually, what people during that time and probably even people during this time will describe
as a light flirtation. Sure. Right? Hippolyte is is is
lightly flirting with this guy's wife in front of the guy, which, by the
way, like, he's hip holding. I don't know if you noticed, dude.
Old books got a sword. Yeah.
Like, he might like, guys don't actually carry around swords unless they know how to
use them. Like, so what are you
doing anyway? Anyway and and then, by the way, was it mentioned that the
prince who was stripping over his his coat of latest fashion didn't
mention he was carrying a sword? So you came unarmed to a sword fight.
Yeah. That seems like a bad idea.
But,
the Billy Graham rule. We've never talked about that on this podcast, but the Billy
Graham rule, the, the old field, the old the the now deceased theologian,
Billy Graham, used to have a rule. And his rule was he never traveled
with a woman that wasn't his wife. He was never in a room with a
woman that wasn't his wife. He wouldn't even go Tom, like, a hotel
bar, writers, of a conference that he was at with a woman that wasn't his
wife. He didn't wanna be seen there because as a theologian, he
knew that just like the Caesars of old, the appearance of
impropriety can sometimes stand in in fourth impropriety itself.
And a lot of people hated on Billy Graham, a lot of women in particular
because they were like, well, how am I gonna network with him if I can't
and that, that, that, that, that, you know, this whole dynamic. Right?
And, you know, I think objections like that fundamentally
ignore the dynamics between men and women and the potential for dynamics
between men and women. And I think the Billy Graham rule fundamentally
acknowledges those differences,
but it does so in a way that says it's on the man to
make the decision, not on not on somebody else. Okay.
If I'm a
leader, should I be engaged with propriety with my with my female
subordinates? Should I be engaged with propriety
there? Should I have some sort of boundaries set up if
I'm a male leader? And by the way, if I'm a female leader, should I
be having some some that, you know, that should I have boundaries? Should
that be a thing? You know, in
in I would say probably
95% of the cases, absolutely yes. Absolutely
yes. Billy Graham's rule of of thumb probably is not
the worst thing in the world. And and by the way, you keep saying or
you you said I won't be in I won't be in a room with a
woman that's not my wife. It's more about I won't be in a room alone
with a woman that's not my wife. Right? So I just wanna make sure there's
a distinction there. There's a there's a distinction there because, again, if you're in
a room full of people and the woman that and you happen to be talking
to a woman, it's not nearly
as Egregious. Yes. Or or potentially
impropriety, impropriety looking.
Right? Mhmm. So whereas if you're in a, in a room alone with a
woman that's not your wife, that that could potentially be taken a a whole hell
of a lot of different ways. And I I I agree with that part. So
so, yeah, I I don't see where this could be a bad thing for you
if you're a leader and fourth and your in a your subordinate
happens to be female. Now, there I understand that
there might be situations where
you just simply can't avoid it. You're in your office. She comes in your office
to ask you a question. You're alone in a in a room without your wife.
But if it were me, I'd make sure that office has glass walls.
And open doors. Open fourth. Do not so so instead, the
rule the rule of thumb is if you come into my office, do not close
the door. Right? So you can still put yourself in better positions
than you than to make sure. And, again, I agree with you
a 110% that the leader is irrelevant whether it's male or
female. I think the same rules apply, especially in today's world. The same rules
apply. I don't think that you should be excluded because you're a woman and
people think that think what? That you can't have impropriety? Of fourth, you can. You
and you could be accused of things just like everybody else. So I I think
that the same rules apply absolutely. And but I think that I think you should
again, I go back to communication is the ultimate weapon in this
environment. Right. If you if you have all if you
have protocols already in place, right, and it's and it's
it's very well known that these are the protocols, then
because it could it could potentially backfire you the other way. Right? Mhmm. So if
a if a if a male if a male subordinate comes in the room and
he's allowed to shut the door but a female is not, that could be taken
that could be taken as a discriminatory act. Mhmm. So if you
treat everybody the same and you say, if you are the only person in my
office, the door stays open regardless if you're male or female, that eliminates you
from that that that discriminatory act as well.
Mhmm. But if but if it's a known if it's a known protocol,
meaning this is how my office is going to run. If
you and 2 other people come in the door and you wanna shut the door,
that's fine. But no one person is gonna leave the door open, I wanna make
that very well known, make it a make make it a form of
communication protocol. So if you if your company has communication
protocols, which by the way would also categorize, you
know, if I email you, this is the time response. If you text me, the
time response. If you, you know, if you call me and you leave a voice
mail, the time response. If you come into my office, leave the door open. Like,
you know, it's it's a form of communication protocol
that you can have laid out for everybody as a rule, which
eliminates the discriminatory potential of it. But I think,
to me, I think communication communication, all of that
is that is the most relevant thing when it comes to those types of environments.
And with that, we're at the end of chipping
away the first essays layer,
of Leo Tolstoy's word piece. Join
us for part 2 of this at some time in the near
future on an episode of Leadership Lessons from the Great Books
podcast, Near You. Once again, I would like to thank Tom Libby
for coming on today. And, with that,
we're out.