WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:12.515 --> 00:00:16.725 Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting 00:00:16.745 --> 00:00:18.445 out fires and start leading. 00:00:19.145 --> 00:00:20.485 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:20.545 --> 00:00:23.205 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:24.075 --> 00:00:24.365 Okay. 00:00:35.004 --> 00:00:37.104 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.134 --> 00:00:38.874 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:38.874 --> 00:00:41.844 You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones. 00:00:42.519 --> 00:00:45.969 Transformative Principal is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network 00:00:46.179 --> 00:00:50.469 and it's where you go to get all your great educational podcasts. 00:00:50.499 --> 00:00:55.449 And if you like education, if you're in education, we've got a show for you. 00:00:55.449 --> 00:00:58.449 And if you're looking on our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com and you 00:00:58.449 --> 00:01:02.349 don't see a show, why don't you reach out to me and let's make a show? 00:01:02.499 --> 00:01:05.199 'cause everybody needs a good podcast. 00:01:05.349 --> 00:01:09.099 And there are so many amazing stories out there that it's just a tragedy. 00:01:09.594 --> 00:01:13.014 If we don't have a show for you, so let me know. 00:01:13.404 --> 00:01:15.114 That's b podcast network.com. 00:01:15.114 --> 00:01:17.754 Today on the show, I'm excited to have Patrick Rein. 00:01:18.024 --> 00:01:22.254 He is a middle school, uh, teacher and he taught history and leadership 00:01:22.254 --> 00:01:25.644 for 10 years and has been a district level instructional coach and 00:01:25.644 --> 00:01:27.534 restorative justice specialist. 00:01:27.894 --> 00:01:32.394 He's currently serving in a TOSA role and is doing some really cool stuff. 00:01:32.784 --> 00:01:37.344 Outside of that, which is he's created a coherent instructional framework 00:01:37.344 --> 00:01:40.764 that applies a Moneyball approach, leveraging data and analytics 00:01:40.764 --> 00:01:42.384 on key performance indicators. 00:01:42.804 --> 00:01:46.704 And he's written a book called Theory Can Only Take You So Far, which the 00:01:46.704 --> 00:01:50.004 title of that just speaks to my heart. 00:01:50.484 --> 00:01:54.234 And he developed a data collection app called Ed Changer Pro that 00:01:54.234 --> 00:01:55.704 brings the system to life. 00:01:55.704 --> 00:01:58.074 So Patrick, welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:01:58.074 --> 00:01:58.764 Great to have you. 00:01:59.219 --> 00:01:59.459 Yeah. 00:01:59.459 --> 00:02:00.569 Thank you for having me, Jethro. 00:02:01.374 --> 00:02:05.994 All right, so for those who aren't familiar, tell us about this Moneyball 00:02:05.994 --> 00:02:11.004 approach and what that means, and then how you apply it in education. 00:02:11.619 --> 00:02:11.949 Yeah. 00:02:11.949 --> 00:02:12.399 Thank you. 00:02:12.429 --> 00:02:13.269 Great start. 00:02:13.299 --> 00:02:19.149 Um, I have, so I'm a baseball fan and one, a famous story in the history of baseball 00:02:19.539 --> 00:02:24.129 is about the Oakland AEs franchise and their general manager, Billy Bean. 00:02:24.579 --> 00:02:29.709 And Billy Bean is famous for managing that franchise, which is, comes from 00:02:29.709 --> 00:02:33.039 a smaller market, which means they have, you know, smaller fan base, 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:35.199 smaller city, and smaller income. 00:02:36.234 --> 00:02:42.564 They're required to compete with all of these higher income teams. 00:02:42.564 --> 00:02:45.954 And so Billy Bean is tasked with trying to create a competitive 00:02:45.954 --> 00:02:50.814 roster less money, um, which is something I connect with in education. 00:02:50.904 --> 00:02:56.004 Um, you know, I. like often we hope to have more resources and more money, 00:02:56.004 --> 00:02:57.354 and that help is just not coming. 00:02:58.224 --> 00:03:04.854 so Billy Bean develops this system of data and analytics order to 00:03:05.334 --> 00:03:10.314 create a better, more efficient, uh, system within baseball. 00:03:10.734 --> 00:03:15.984 And so I guess the story is, there is a point in the movie where Billy's talking 00:03:15.984 --> 00:03:18.084 to these traditional minded scouts. 00:03:18.954 --> 00:03:25.044 The scouts are judging players on things like the shape of their jaw and how 00:03:25.044 --> 00:03:28.014 they look these surface level qualities. 00:03:28.014 --> 00:03:31.734 In fact, the the scene kind of ends when one scout says, we 00:03:31.734 --> 00:03:35.784 can't pick up that player because his girlfriend's only a six. 00:03:35.784 --> 00:03:39.239 He's got an ugly girlfriend, which to me, like. 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:43.449 Represents so much absurdity because that has nothing to do 00:03:43.449 --> 00:03:44.709 with how you can play baseball. 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.689 And so my theory is, is that we are sometimes applying unintentionally 00:03:50.019 --> 00:03:52.899 a similar approach to how we judge instruction and teachers. 00:03:53.289 --> 00:03:55.959 Sometimes it's the teacher with the Pinterest classroom. 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.839 Sometimes it's the teacher that's popular with the kids. 00:03:58.869 --> 00:04:02.409 Sometimes it's the teacher that's connected that has this reputation. 00:04:02.739 --> 00:04:04.509 Um, and. 00:04:05.754 --> 00:04:11.574 There is great instruction is so critical in schools, and so I've developed this 00:04:11.574 --> 00:04:16.554 again with that, along with that idea of data and analytics and taking these 00:04:16.554 --> 00:04:21.084 key performance indicators that Billy Bean used in his analysis of baseball. 00:04:21.504 --> 00:04:24.139 Um, I've created this system where we do that for the classroom. 00:04:25.389 --> 00:04:25.839 Yeah. 00:04:25.869 --> 00:04:32.079 Well, and I, I love the idea of taking away the things we judge educators on that 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:37.389 don't mean anything, um, because there's a lot out there that we could judge them on. 00:04:37.449 --> 00:04:42.024 And in a lot of situations, like I. It just doesn't matter. 00:04:42.114 --> 00:04:47.004 And, and so we, let's get into those key performance indicators that you're 00:04:47.004 --> 00:04:51.354 talking about because, um, I have my own perspective on these, but I want to hear 00:04:51.354 --> 00:04:55.119 yours first and let's, let's talk about 'em, maybe see some unique things there. 00:04:55.929 --> 00:05:01.029 Yeah, so background, I'll, I'll preface my ideas with, uh, I'm in a unique 00:05:01.029 --> 00:05:04.839 position as a professional learning toso where I spend like a third of my 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:09.009 time in the classroom, often teaching, but sometimes observing teachers. 00:05:09.009 --> 00:05:13.419 A third of my time working on building systems with principals and about a third 00:05:13.419 --> 00:05:15.129 of my time at the district office and. 00:05:16.329 --> 00:05:20.649 The best part of my job is I get to see all of the amazing things 00:05:20.649 --> 00:05:24.039 that are happening in all corners of our school district, and 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:26.289 teachers really are incredible. 00:05:26.289 --> 00:05:29.889 But then the other thing I see everywhere is this feeling of crisis. 00:05:30.369 --> 00:05:35.439 And I think, and unintentionally, as we've tried to combat that feeling of 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:40.629 crisis and find relief, we keep looking at like individual initiatives or quick 00:05:40.629 --> 00:05:42.819 fixes to try to solve the problem. 00:05:43.389 --> 00:05:50.109 And my, foundational viewpoint is, is that we have to stop throwing shiny 00:05:50.109 --> 00:05:53.709 objects and quick fixes at the problem and start building and maintaining systems. 00:05:53.799 --> 00:05:55.989 And again, I've done that. 00:05:56.394 --> 00:06:01.974 From an instructional practice perspective and created a classroom system and 00:06:01.974 --> 00:06:06.534 just analyzed a ton of research and evidence and my own experience as a 00:06:06.534 --> 00:06:11.724 teacher, and then also used AI a little bit, and I found consistent that the 00:06:11.724 --> 00:06:15.744 practices of building community and relationships intentionally, planning 00:06:15.744 --> 00:06:20.064 routines, teaching expectations, informed supervision, I call it. 00:06:20.919 --> 00:06:25.449 Positive feedback, corrective feedback and opportunities to respond or rigorous 00:06:25.449 --> 00:06:31.179 questioning are the most critical indicators of grade instruction. 00:06:31.179 --> 00:06:34.749 And then I add the eighth practice of what would be considered like that 00:06:34.749 --> 00:06:36.879 first wave of tier two in the classroom. 00:06:37.149 --> 00:06:39.039 Um, teaching moves for targeted support. 00:06:39.669 --> 00:06:42.579 Those practices make a classroom system. 00:06:43.539 --> 00:06:48.159 Um, and the way that I phrase that is I use the quote systems equals hope. 00:06:48.954 --> 00:06:52.374 And what that quote means to me is, is that as a teacher, I'm 00:06:52.374 --> 00:06:55.554 gonna have hope when there's a logical next step in my work. 00:06:56.334 --> 00:06:59.634 and so when you have that system implemented, say your class 00:06:59.634 --> 00:07:04.194 feels contentious, it's a really clear, logical next step to build 00:07:04.194 --> 00:07:05.394 community and relationships. 00:07:05.394 --> 00:07:08.089 If your class feels chaotic, install routines. 00:07:08.089 --> 00:07:12.294 If your class feels cold, then you wanna increase positive reinforcement. 00:07:12.294 --> 00:07:15.564 So that system creates that po that logical next step. 00:07:16.194 --> 00:07:17.874 that's something that's gonna give teachers hope. 00:07:20.559 --> 00:07:21.219 I like that. 00:07:21.249 --> 00:07:23.139 All right, so I was taking notes while you were talking. 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:26.319 Building community classroom routines, informed supervision 00:07:26.349 --> 00:07:30.039 feedback, opportunities to respond, rigorous questioning, teaching 00:07:30.039 --> 00:07:31.089 moves for targeted support. 00:07:31.089 --> 00:07:31.749 Did I miss one? 00:07:32.859 --> 00:07:34.389 Uh, teaching expectations, 00:07:34.784 --> 00:07:35.544 Teaching expectations. 00:07:35.829 --> 00:07:36.099 Okay. 00:07:36.099 --> 00:07:36.459 Thank you. 00:07:36.849 --> 00:07:38.589 in line with, with routines, right? 00:07:39.159 --> 00:07:39.549 Yeah. 00:07:39.969 --> 00:07:40.299 Okay. 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:43.059 Alright, so, so that's good. 00:07:43.119 --> 00:07:47.289 What I, what I really like about what you said is that these systems create 00:07:47.289 --> 00:07:54.159 hope and so when, when you're struggling with something, then you can figure 00:07:54.159 --> 00:07:57.279 out what the next thing is to do. 00:07:57.609 --> 00:07:59.619 And you gave some good examples there. 00:07:59.949 --> 00:08:01.959 So I want you to go into that a little bit more. 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:05.559 How do you know that these are the next right things? 00:08:05.619 --> 00:08:07.029 Or do you have to learn that? 00:08:07.029 --> 00:08:08.109 Do you have to be taught that? 00:08:08.499 --> 00:08:12.609 Um, what's, what's the process for making sure that you, you know, 00:08:12.609 --> 00:08:13.779 what the next right thing is? 00:08:13.809 --> 00:08:15.549 'cause it's not really gonna give you hope. 00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:22.149 If you are like, well, if you know there's, if it feels cold in here, then 00:08:22.179 --> 00:08:27.159 I'm gonna, then I'm just gonna work on giving more opportunities to respond, or 00:08:27.159 --> 00:08:28.719 I'm gonna have more rigorous questions. 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:33.669 Those are not necessarily going to fix that cold atmosphere in the classroom. 00:08:33.669 --> 00:08:36.279 So how do you know what the right thing to do is? 00:08:37.164 --> 00:08:40.914 Yeah, and that's a really, I mean, part of it is I think building 00:08:40.914 --> 00:08:45.564 capacity in the system over time, and you start to recognize those things. 00:08:46.344 --> 00:08:48.234 could answer that question in two ways. 00:08:48.234 --> 00:08:48.774 I think. 00:08:50.214 --> 00:08:55.224 I would say that it starts with, some people are really intuitive at making 00:08:55.224 --> 00:08:58.794 those decisions and seeing those human elements in, in a classroom. 00:08:59.184 --> 00:09:04.674 And honestly, generally, I was in a conversation with this, you know, state, 00:09:04.734 --> 00:09:09.354 high level MTSS recently, and he said something that kind of floored me. 00:09:09.354 --> 00:09:14.574 He said, your app because know, what I've learned is only 2% of 00:09:14.574 --> 00:09:16.434 teachers really need to be evaluated. 00:09:16.434 --> 00:09:18.684 98% of teachers need to be coached. 00:09:19.074 --> 00:09:24.534 Um, and so a lot of people are really intuitive in making those decisions, but 00:09:24.534 --> 00:09:29.124 what I, I would first answer that question is, is what we need to do is level 00:09:29.124 --> 00:09:31.764 set and build capacity in instruction. 00:09:32.304 --> 00:09:35.184 And I think the only way that we do that is start starting 00:09:35.184 --> 00:09:36.924 to collect data on instruction. 00:09:36.924 --> 00:09:39.654 So if I'm, I'll use the simplest possible example. 00:09:40.494 --> 00:09:44.184 Uh, a lot of people are familiar with the idea that. 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:49.449 a four, approximately four to one positive to negative inter action ratio that's 00:09:49.449 --> 00:09:51.189 thought of as optimal in a classroom. 00:09:51.219 --> 00:09:54.009 And you hear between three and five to one for that number. 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:56.679 But that's something people are familiar with. 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.979 And I can, as a observer, just sit in a classroom and tally 00:09:59.979 --> 00:10:04.659 P-P-P-N-P-P-N, and tell you as a teacher exactly what your ratio is. 00:10:05.109 --> 00:10:09.339 And so by having that data collection, you start to see. 00:10:10.179 --> 00:10:12.399 What optimal feels like, right? 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:15.609 If I collect data on you three times, and once you're one-to-one, and once 00:10:15.609 --> 00:10:19.149 you're two to one, and once you're four to one, you can feel what four 00:10:19.149 --> 00:10:23.829 to one feels like, but you also get to see how that impacts your students. 00:10:24.849 --> 00:10:30.369 And so that kind of profound learning and growth that happens on that data 00:10:30.369 --> 00:10:35.559 collection is, I think that's how we build capacity and maybe people who can't 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:37.599 so intuitively make those decisions. 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:41.604 I, I really appreciate that, and some people are intuitive 00:10:41.604 --> 00:10:43.794 response because some people. 00:10:43.794 --> 00:10:44.394 Get it. 00:10:44.394 --> 00:10:49.674 And some people can walk into a classroom and set all those things up 00:10:50.004 --> 00:10:56.184 in virtually no time at all because they are just so good at it, either 00:10:56.184 --> 00:10:57.774 through practice or naturally. 00:10:58.254 --> 00:10:59.334 And so like. 00:10:59.979 --> 00:11:06.189 For me, my first year teaching, there were a lot of things I needed to learn 00:11:06.189 --> 00:11:11.319 how to do, but there were a lot of things that I just knew intuitively 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:13.269 needed to happen and nobody told me. 00:11:13.299 --> 00:11:17.139 In fact, I was in alternative routes to licensure teacher, so I didn't take 00:11:17.139 --> 00:11:21.369 any education classes before I got my first teaching job, not a single one. 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:25.689 However, I've been teaching, you know, my whole entire life since I was 12 00:11:25.689 --> 00:11:28.029 years old in different ways, so I was. 00:11:28.794 --> 00:11:31.674 Uh, there were a lot of things that I already knew, and so stepping 00:11:31.674 --> 00:11:37.584 in, uh, I had, you know, probably 75% of the way there of being 00:11:37.584 --> 00:11:39.444 a, a great teacher on day one. 00:11:39.774 --> 00:11:43.104 And then I needed to learn some strategies beyond that. 00:11:43.134 --> 00:11:49.104 But at this point, you know, I. It's, it's now my 20th year in education. 00:11:49.194 --> 00:11:55.314 I can go into any classroom with any group of adults or children and be 00:11:55.314 --> 00:12:00.054 able to command the space and set up expectations and, and establish 00:12:00.054 --> 00:12:04.134 routines very quickly because I've just learned how to do those things 00:12:04.554 --> 00:12:06.984 and that's not the case for everybody. 00:12:06.984 --> 00:12:12.564 And that idea of, I need to talk to that person who said that 2% of teachers need 00:12:12.564 --> 00:12:14.604 to be evaluated, 90 se 8% need to be. 00:12:15.444 --> 00:12:19.404 Coach, that's, I think that's absolutely right because we also know 00:12:19.404 --> 00:12:23.544 that like 98% of teachers pass their evaluations and it's just a hoop to 00:12:23.544 --> 00:12:26.664 jump through, and it's a waste of everybody's time, and yet we keep doing 00:12:26.664 --> 00:12:29.154 it because it's not really necessary. 00:12:29.154 --> 00:12:30.744 What, what's going on with that? 00:12:32.124 --> 00:12:32.364 Yeah. 00:12:32.364 --> 00:12:35.394 I love that, that point you probably saw on my face point 00:12:35.724 --> 00:12:35.904 Yeah. 00:12:36.144 --> 00:12:39.504 the, our evaluation being a hoop to jump through 00:12:41.664 --> 00:12:48.654 In our evaluation system, we, you know, it's 30 indicators with a rubric 00:12:48.654 --> 00:12:50.304 with four different descriptors. 00:12:51.729 --> 00:12:54.339 It's so complicated and teachers are so busy. 00:12:54.339 --> 00:12:56.439 Most teachers I don't even think know what they say. 00:12:56.439 --> 00:13:01.419 And I think, again, this system, so, I'll dive into what I really wanna 00:13:01.419 --> 00:13:05.589 say is, is that, you know, I just think teachers are so incredible. 00:13:05.589 --> 00:13:08.379 There are so many amazing teachers doing so amazing things. 00:13:08.439 --> 00:13:15.309 And, um, having that evaluation system that's so complex versus this 00:13:15.309 --> 00:13:18.189 simple system of eight objective. 00:13:19.629 --> 00:13:24.789 Observable data points something that's gonna bring teachers efficacy. 00:13:24.789 --> 00:13:28.719 And the way I want to say it is, is I use the quote often, repeating is 00:13:28.719 --> 00:13:31.449 not the same as creating in my work. 00:13:31.899 --> 00:13:34.179 And I think teachers are just so incredible. 00:13:34.179 --> 00:13:37.239 And there's almost two injustices here. 00:13:37.239 --> 00:13:37.329 One. 00:13:38.499 --> 00:13:43.059 I don't think teachers have been presented that simple of a coherent system of here's 00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:44.829 the eight practices that you need to do. 00:13:45.579 --> 00:13:48.639 these 30 indicators that seem so much, and then they get overwhelmed. 00:13:49.269 --> 00:13:54.549 But the other injustices is, I don't think they've ever aren't coached in this way. 00:13:54.549 --> 00:13:57.759 That really acknowledges how incredible they are and that they 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.259 are the experts of the students. 00:13:59.979 --> 00:14:04.599 this process of data collection, if I sit in the classroom and I tally students. 00:14:05.824 --> 00:14:10.299 EEED for engaged, disengaged, engaged, disengaged. 00:14:10.719 --> 00:14:13.929 And then I calculate after about three rounds of going through the class, 00:14:13.929 --> 00:14:16.659 that 70% of students are engaged. 00:14:17.499 --> 00:14:21.579 sit down next to that teacher and say, you have 70% of students engaged. 00:14:21.609 --> 00:14:23.619 80 to 90 is the optimal ratio. 00:14:23.619 --> 00:14:25.449 The RTI Triangle shows us that, right? 00:14:26.649 --> 00:14:27.669 What are we gonna do about it? 00:14:28.509 --> 00:14:29.379 some new activities. 00:14:29.379 --> 00:14:32.019 Maybe it's as simple as choosing some new activities, or maybe we 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:33.519 need to install a new routine. 00:14:34.224 --> 00:14:37.224 Maybe there needs to be some increase in positive feedback, but I can have 00:14:37.224 --> 00:14:43.224 that coaching conversation where it's not me just stripping away all 00:14:43.224 --> 00:14:46.404 of their creativity and personality and telling them what to do. 00:14:46.884 --> 00:14:51.684 It's us sitting side by side and them making the decisions for their classroom 00:14:51.684 --> 00:14:55.284 because they're the experts, because they are, um, teachers are incredible and they 00:14:55.284 --> 00:14:58.104 deserve to be acknowledged such, I think. 00:14:58.819 --> 00:15:03.584 Yeah, and they're professionals and, and it's crazy that we have. 00:15:03.824 --> 00:15:10.874 This complex, convoluted, uh, impossible to manage, uh, expectation 00:15:10.874 --> 00:15:13.874 about their, you know, evaluations. 00:15:14.114 --> 00:15:19.304 Um, when the first district I was a principal in, we had 54 indicators 00:15:19.364 --> 00:15:22.994 and like there's, they would say. 00:15:23.409 --> 00:15:27.999 There's no way for you to do all 54 of these in a single observation, 00:15:28.359 --> 00:15:32.079 but that doesn't make anybody feel like it, like that matters. 00:15:32.739 --> 00:15:35.439 And the other part of it is that there's so much there that it 00:15:35.439 --> 00:15:38.109 seems like it's intentionally designed to make it difficult for 00:15:38.109 --> 00:15:40.179 them to notice and pay attention. 00:15:40.659 --> 00:15:45.009 We as the principles, when we do these evaluations, we are doing them 00:15:45.009 --> 00:15:47.049 on multiple teachers multiple times. 00:15:47.049 --> 00:15:50.619 So we, we are familiar with the tool. 00:15:50.964 --> 00:15:57.234 And, and what I like about your and other simple approaches, uh, 00:15:57.264 --> 00:16:01.014 like, uh, Craig Randall, do you know his trust-based observations? 00:16:01.554 --> 00:16:02.784 Uh, no, I've never heard of Craig 00:16:02.784 --> 00:16:03.294 Okay. 00:16:03.354 --> 00:16:07.284 He's, he's over in Tacoma, so he's, uh, he's a wash Tony also. 00:16:07.284 --> 00:16:12.114 And, um, his trust-based observations is fantastic because it's, 00:16:12.324 --> 00:16:14.094 it's all about building trust. 00:16:14.589 --> 00:16:21.429 Through that process and, and what, what we need more of is respect for teachers 00:16:21.429 --> 00:16:28.299 as professionals and an opportunity for them to know exactly what good 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:34.869 teaching looks like and, and how they can be great teachers and not have it 00:16:34.869 --> 00:16:40.659 be so complex that it's like, it it some proprietary formula that determines. 00:16:40.989 --> 00:16:46.029 What your score number is based on all these ev uh, observations and, 00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:48.429 and data points that is so opaque. 00:16:48.429 --> 00:16:49.929 You don't know really what's going on. 00:16:49.929 --> 00:16:53.409 But what you're saying is, here's engagement. 00:16:53.409 --> 00:16:55.059 And my word for that is enrollment. 00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:57.849 Kids can be engaged, but that doesn't mean that they're enrolled. 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:02.019 Like you can be engaged in activity but not be paying attention to it 00:17:02.019 --> 00:17:04.809 or not care about the end result. 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:08.379 Enrolled means you are choosing to be part of that. 00:17:08.964 --> 00:17:14.604 Uh, activity and you're choosing to, to fully engage in it yourself rather 00:17:14.604 --> 00:17:18.174 than, you know, kids can be engaged in cool math games.com, but that doesn't 00:17:18.174 --> 00:17:19.344 mean that they're learning anything. 00:17:19.814 --> 00:17:20.104 Yeah. 00:17:20.454 --> 00:17:24.204 and so that, that type of approach of here's what it looks like to 00:17:24.204 --> 00:17:28.464 be a good teacher, here's some clear data points that say that. 00:17:29.019 --> 00:17:29.769 Those are important. 00:17:29.769 --> 00:17:31.359 'cause that also gives clarity. 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:35.979 The systems give hope, but those systems and expectations also give 00:17:35.979 --> 00:17:38.379 clarity about what good looks like. 00:17:38.769 --> 00:17:41.229 But if it's 30 things, it doesn't, it's too much. 00:17:41.289 --> 00:17:44.829 If it's eight things, I, I think that's a little bit more manageable. 00:17:45.099 --> 00:17:48.549 And I would even argue that you could probably get it down to 00:17:48.879 --> 00:17:52.959 maybe even five and, and that would be much more manageable. 00:17:52.959 --> 00:17:55.272 But that's work that I'll leave you to do, Patrick. 00:17:56.352 --> 00:17:56.572 Yeah. 00:17:56.572 --> 00:17:57.112 No, thank you. 00:17:57.232 --> 00:17:57.652 I agree. 00:17:57.682 --> 00:17:58.162 Um. 00:17:58.942 --> 00:18:04.222 And I mean, the two response I would say is I, I love that point that you made as 00:18:04.222 --> 00:18:10.102 far as just the overwhelm nature of those evaluation systems from 54 30 indicators. 00:18:10.582 --> 00:18:11.542 Either one is a lot. 00:18:11.872 --> 00:18:15.622 And it kind of brings me back to that original point where that idea of like 00:18:15.622 --> 00:18:19.612 quick fixes and shiny objects that are gonna solve the problem, like what ends 00:18:19.612 --> 00:18:23.422 up happening in education generally from what I see is, is that, and again, I 00:18:23.422 --> 00:18:25.882 think generally with the best intentions. 00:18:26.317 --> 00:18:31.177 Everybody's trying to make things better for kids, but everybody's got a different 00:18:31.177 --> 00:18:36.247 initiative, so there's eight initiatives coming at teachers and then there's, you 00:18:36.247 --> 00:18:39.667 know, we try 'em for six months and they work or don't, and something comes down 00:18:39.667 --> 00:18:44.197 the pipe that's next, it creates that constant feeling of initiative fatigue. 00:18:44.467 --> 00:18:47.707 Um, and so that's kind of the premise again of my work is, is like. 00:18:48.622 --> 00:18:51.172 We can't continue to try to solve all of our problems in 00:18:51.172 --> 00:18:52.912 education with initiatives. 00:18:52.912 --> 00:18:55.402 We have to start building and maintaining systems. 00:18:55.512 --> 00:18:56.112 Mm-hmm. 00:18:56.122 --> 00:19:01.462 could probably, um, combine intentional routines and teaching expectations and 00:19:01.462 --> 00:19:05.932 corrective and positive interactions to just feedback and make it more like five. 00:19:06.292 --> 00:19:11.122 Um, but either way, like that's a system and it's there whether it's five or 00:19:11.122 --> 00:19:15.172 eight, and we have to really at some point start building and maintaining systems. 00:19:15.592 --> 00:19:19.687 Um, I. Education has changed a lot in the last 10 years and it's gonna 00:19:19.897 --> 00:19:24.247 continue to change faster and we're not gonna be, in fact, I'd say we're 00:19:24.247 --> 00:19:28.357 already behind on the inclusionary practices and AI changes that are coming. 00:19:28.542 --> 00:19:28.762 Oh 00:19:28.807 --> 00:19:32.377 Um, if we don't start building and maintaining systems now, things 00:19:32.377 --> 00:19:33.637 are gonna continue to get harder. 00:19:34.597 --> 00:19:35.707 Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:35.707 --> 00:19:39.727 So on the initiative thing, I have a podcast episode that I'm gonna put in the 00:19:39.727 --> 00:19:45.427 show notes where we did 34 initiatives in three years at my middle school 00:19:45.697 --> 00:19:47.827 and there was no initiative fatigue. 00:19:48.097 --> 00:19:49.747 And here's how we dealt with that. 00:19:50.107 --> 00:19:54.517 We said the here's our goal and here's where we're going. 00:19:54.517 --> 00:19:55.357 This is our vision. 00:19:55.972 --> 00:19:59.452 And if you as a teacher think you can do something to help us 00:19:59.452 --> 00:20:03.292 move toward that vision, we will adopt that as an initiative. 00:20:03.652 --> 00:20:06.952 But we're only going to adopt initiatives. 00:20:07.102 --> 00:20:09.532 Once I, the principal have set the vision, we're only gonna adopt 00:20:09.532 --> 00:20:11.152 initiatives that teachers bring forward. 00:20:11.392 --> 00:20:14.812 So the district's not gonna have a mandate that they're gonna add in later 00:20:14.812 --> 00:20:18.982 and say, this is what we're all gonna do now we have a vision and we're gonna. 00:20:19.762 --> 00:20:23.362 Init we're gonna put into place those things that you teachers are coming 00:20:23.362 --> 00:20:28.132 up with that we need to implement to do, to do the vision for our school. 00:20:28.582 --> 00:20:32.302 And we had, uh, happy teachers. 00:20:32.602 --> 00:20:38.422 We had effective teachers, we had, uh, students who were growing two to 00:20:38.422 --> 00:20:43.402 five grade levels in our remediation classes in math and language arts. 00:20:43.852 --> 00:20:48.802 Um, and these were all because of the efforts that the teachers were saying, 00:20:48.862 --> 00:20:50.602 this is what we need to do our work. 00:20:50.902 --> 00:20:54.412 And, and whenever somebody brings up initiative fatigue, I have to 00:20:54.412 --> 00:20:57.502 tell that story because it doesn't have to be that way, you know? 00:20:57.892 --> 00:20:59.122 And, and that's the key. 00:20:59.122 --> 00:21:01.342 You can make changes within your schools. 00:21:01.927 --> 00:21:02.257 Yeah. 00:21:02.617 --> 00:21:05.137 Well, what I hear you saying there is to be honest and using that 00:21:05.137 --> 00:21:08.167 word initiative, but I hear you actually saying you built the system. 00:21:09.262 --> 00:21:10.042 That is right. 00:21:10.042 --> 00:21:11.752 of these components, right? 00:21:11.752 --> 00:21:13.042 That's what I hear you saying and 00:21:13.042 --> 00:21:13.462 Yep. 00:21:13.792 --> 00:21:17.752 um, 'cause initiatives required. 00:21:17.752 --> 00:21:20.632 You have to install new ideas into schools to keep up. 00:21:21.232 --> 00:21:25.642 But doing it in a way that's sustainable and it fits coherently within, into 00:21:25.642 --> 00:21:30.262 a system, um, is the mindset shift. 00:21:30.347 --> 00:21:31.462 I think that needs to happen. 00:21:31.672 --> 00:21:31.822 But 00:21:32.032 --> 00:21:32.322 Yeah. 00:21:32.542 --> 00:21:32.842 Yeah. 00:21:33.082 --> 00:21:33.412 I don't know. 00:21:33.412 --> 00:21:34.492 Would you agree with that or what are 00:21:34.567 --> 00:21:35.017 Yeah. 00:21:35.092 --> 00:21:35.362 point? 00:21:35.737 --> 00:21:36.187 totally. 00:21:36.187 --> 00:21:39.697 I mean, that's, that's the whole thing is we, we set up systems where. 00:21:39.982 --> 00:21:44.272 If you, if you felt like something needed to be done, you could bring that forward 00:21:44.272 --> 00:21:49.342 and we could make a school-wide change, but it had to come from the teachers. 00:21:49.642 --> 00:21:53.152 Uh, or, or there were systemic things that needed to happen 00:21:53.152 --> 00:21:54.652 that, that I had to initiate. 00:21:54.982 --> 00:22:00.172 Uh, for example, one of those things was we need, uh, we have too many kids 00:22:00.172 --> 00:22:04.222 who are below grade level, and so we need to adjust how we do language arts. 00:22:04.222 --> 00:22:07.132 So for example, we had 90 minute blocks of language arts. 00:22:07.312 --> 00:22:08.452 I'm a language arts teacher. 00:22:08.797 --> 00:22:09.337 I love it. 00:22:09.427 --> 00:22:12.997 I, I, I could like sit around, talk about books and reading 00:22:12.997 --> 00:22:13.957 and writing all day long. 00:22:14.347 --> 00:22:17.467 However, we had a lot of kids who were struggling even in that 00:22:17.467 --> 00:22:18.997 system with all that extra time. 00:22:19.357 --> 00:22:24.607 So we said we're gonna reduce the required time for ELA to 45 to a 00:22:24.607 --> 00:22:26.647 45 minute period for everybody. 00:22:26.917 --> 00:22:30.097 And then anybody who needs extra help is gonna get targeted additional 00:22:30.097 --> 00:22:33.367 support in, in an additional period. 00:22:33.427 --> 00:22:37.117 And so, because we had it set up, we had the teachers, we had the. 00:22:37.477 --> 00:22:42.367 The things in place we need to make a system-wide change, but we could do 00:22:42.367 --> 00:22:48.367 that within our, our arena of influence and make it work for our students, 00:22:48.367 --> 00:22:51.247 which was very beneficial for for them. 00:22:51.517 --> 00:22:56.857 And that's where we saw huge gains because I. Taking away that 90 minute block of 00:22:56.947 --> 00:23:00.517 language arts also gave students who needed math support additional help. 00:23:00.517 --> 00:23:05.947 And that's where we saw kids go from a, uh, second grade math proficiency 00:23:05.977 --> 00:23:12.967 level to grade level math proficiency in a semester, which was incredible. 00:23:13.207 --> 00:23:15.217 I almost didn't even believe it when I saw it. 00:23:15.307 --> 00:23:18.067 And I was like, there's no way that these kids could grow this much. 00:23:18.097 --> 00:23:22.327 And yet they did because they got very targeted, specific support. 00:23:23.482 --> 00:23:24.682 In the areas that they needed. 00:23:24.682 --> 00:23:28.492 And a huge part of that had nothing to do with teaching. 00:23:28.492 --> 00:23:31.762 And it was a ton of mindset work for those students. 00:23:32.212 --> 00:23:35.842 They had been told they were dumb in math their whole lives, and this teacher 00:23:35.842 --> 00:23:39.982 spent a lot of time telling them that they could, that they could learn how 00:23:39.982 --> 00:23:41.962 to do math, that it wasn't impossible. 00:23:42.172 --> 00:23:45.202 Whereas all their previous teachers had been saying, you're just an idiot. 00:23:45.202 --> 00:23:46.072 You can't do this. 00:23:46.312 --> 00:23:48.862 Not by using those words, but by the actions they took. 00:23:49.162 --> 00:23:52.012 So anyway, that, that, uh. 00:23:52.477 --> 00:23:56.557 That time at that school was really amazing and incredible. 00:23:56.557 --> 00:23:57.547 We did a lot of cool things. 00:23:57.547 --> 00:23:59.557 So, uh, check out that link. 00:23:59.557 --> 00:24:02.377 People who are listening, initiative fatigue is what the link is. 00:24:02.737 --> 00:24:06.997 Um, and then I wanna talk a little bit about your app before we close, 00:24:06.997 --> 00:24:11.347 because it's one thing to say, here's all this good great stuff 00:24:11.347 --> 00:24:13.207 that we can, we can talk about. 00:24:13.417 --> 00:24:16.957 But you actually made an app to make it easier to keep track of all this stuff. 00:24:16.957 --> 00:24:17.707 Tell us about that. 00:24:19.162 --> 00:24:25.762 Yeah, so how the app works specifically is, again, I have and created 00:24:25.792 --> 00:24:29.872 data points, um, based on a ton of research and evidence, like I said. 00:24:30.862 --> 00:24:34.612 little bit of help from AI for all of those eight practices. 00:24:34.972 --> 00:24:38.452 And so each one has what I, what I call like games. 00:24:38.542 --> 00:24:41.992 You open the app and you can click on each practice and it brings you into a game. 00:24:41.992 --> 00:24:43.222 'cause they're kinda like little games. 00:24:43.222 --> 00:24:47.152 When you, sitting in a classroom and you're tapping P or N, it kind of 00:24:47.152 --> 00:24:48.412 feels like you're playing a game. 00:24:48.412 --> 00:24:51.502 Or one of them is, is like student to teacher talk time. 00:24:51.502 --> 00:24:53.482 The data point is that, um. 00:24:53.872 --> 00:24:55.762 70% of class should be student talk. 00:24:55.762 --> 00:24:57.772 30% of class should be teacher talk. 00:24:57.772 --> 00:25:00.742 So you're sitting and toggling back and forth between 00:25:00.742 --> 00:25:02.152 student talk and teacher talk. 00:25:02.572 --> 00:25:04.852 Um, they're kind of little games and they're kind of fun to play. 00:25:05.212 --> 00:25:07.252 But then again, really they're data monitoring tools. 00:25:07.552 --> 00:25:11.602 And so you go into a classroom, you open the app, you pick a practice. 00:25:11.647 --> 00:25:14.137 These make great 10 minute observations. 00:25:14.137 --> 00:25:16.717 Again, positive, negative interactions, students being engaged 00:25:16.957 --> 00:25:18.517 for one routine, whatever that is. 00:25:19.717 --> 00:25:21.517 you collect the data as an observer. 00:25:21.517 --> 00:25:23.467 Or teachers can do this on their own, right? 00:25:23.467 --> 00:25:26.227 Like a teacher could sit there and track their interactions 00:25:26.227 --> 00:25:27.487 or if students are engaged. 00:25:28.237 --> 00:25:33.877 And after the observation, it brings you to a screen that gives you your data. 00:25:34.507 --> 00:25:38.857 And then when you hit okay, it brings you, it pops up your email it sends 00:25:38.857 --> 00:25:41.317 the teacher an email with their data. 00:25:42.157 --> 00:25:46.447 And would I have like three high quality resources for each practice. 00:25:47.527 --> 00:25:49.297 so the teacher then can do some learning. 00:25:49.297 --> 00:25:54.007 So if I'm monitoring your, um, let's, I'll do my favorite one for you, Jethro. 00:25:54.007 --> 00:25:55.837 I'm monitoring your informed supervision. 00:25:55.957 --> 00:26:00.577 And so how that's set up is, is I come in the app I tap on a grid 00:26:00.577 --> 00:26:02.107 to create a map of your classroom. 00:26:02.767 --> 00:26:07.507 then when I hit, okay, the map pops up, but now it's touchable and I can drag my 00:26:07.507 --> 00:26:09.727 finger around your supervision patterns. 00:26:11.062 --> 00:26:15.802 you stop and interact with a student, I can tap positive, negative, or 00:26:16.162 --> 00:26:18.532 PN or O for opportunity to respond. 00:26:18.532 --> 00:26:19.852 Did you positively reinforce? 00:26:19.852 --> 00:26:21.772 Correct them a question? 00:26:22.552 --> 00:26:27.952 I do that for 10 minutes it sends you the map, it sends you the interactions 00:26:27.952 --> 00:26:32.212 you had with your students, then it also sends you a webinar of me 00:26:32.212 --> 00:26:35.752 talking about a 10 minute webinar of me talking about informed supervision. 00:26:36.922 --> 00:26:42.292 Like the first resource, which is like how to strategically make those interactions. 00:26:42.292 --> 00:26:46.402 When I approach a student, do I positively reinforce correct or ask them a question? 00:26:47.002 --> 00:26:49.852 And then the third resource is this tiered framework. 00:26:50.272 --> 00:26:53.782 So that's like if you're a refined teacher and you kind of know how 00:26:53.782 --> 00:26:58.612 to make those decisions, but that the tiered framework provides like 00:26:58.612 --> 00:27:00.682 six or seven deeper resources. 00:27:01.042 --> 00:27:05.782 Then it also provides these, these three resources that I've created, like a one 00:27:05.782 --> 00:27:11.032 pager that explains a project, a tier one, like teaching moves, and then a tier two, 00:27:11.032 --> 00:27:12.892 like teaching moves for targeted support. 00:27:13.582 --> 00:27:15.802 Um, so those are the three resources. 00:27:15.802 --> 00:27:20.452 The webinar, like a First Steps for Refinement, and then a framework that 00:27:20.452 --> 00:27:24.082 has tiered resources that anyone can find something to support their practice. 00:27:24.412 --> 00:27:24.772 Um. 00:27:25.657 --> 00:27:30.367 each of the practices have those games can play, send the data 00:27:30.367 --> 00:27:32.077 to the teacher with resources. 00:27:32.467 --> 00:27:34.597 So again, that acknowledges them as experts. 00:27:34.597 --> 00:27:38.797 They can go through the resources and decide they want to adjust 00:27:38.797 --> 00:27:40.177 based on the data that they got. 00:27:42.592 --> 00:27:43.222 That's great. 00:27:43.222 --> 00:27:46.462 So now, uh, when the principal's sitting in the back of the room, 00:27:46.462 --> 00:27:47.752 he's just playing games on his iPad. 00:27:47.752 --> 00:27:49.972 Had, uh, that's, that's good. 00:27:50.032 --> 00:27:57.592 Um, no, I, a I actually really like that because I personally, I used observations 00:27:57.682 --> 00:28:00.082 as a game, uh, when I was doing it. 00:28:00.082 --> 00:28:05.932 And it was a, you know, how many, how many things on this 50 to four 00:28:05.932 --> 00:28:11.272 point checklist, can I mark off and can I, can I get 'em all, you know? 00:28:11.272 --> 00:28:14.842 And, and I would make it a game because for me that was the only way to. 00:28:15.397 --> 00:28:16.567 To survive doing it. 00:28:16.567 --> 00:28:20.857 But I like this, uh, intentionality in making it more like a game so that 00:28:20.857 --> 00:28:27.277 it's actually a fun thing to do and it's not tedious and, um, and not, 00:28:27.277 --> 00:28:31.297 uh, not boring for the teacher or the principal who's in there observing. 00:28:32.527 --> 00:28:32.767 Yeah. 00:28:32.767 --> 00:28:33.157 Thank you. 00:28:33.247 --> 00:28:33.757 It's good. 00:28:35.047 --> 00:28:41.197 Um, so I, I gotta introduce you to, uh, um, Ben at Classroom Mosaic, uh, 00:28:41.197 --> 00:28:43.237 who does a lot of stuff with, uh. 00:28:44.047 --> 00:28:46.147 Principal and teacher observations. 00:28:46.207 --> 00:28:50.137 Um, 'cause I think you two would, uh, you'd, you'd 00:28:50.137 --> 00:28:51.907 probably hit it off pretty well. 00:28:51.937 --> 00:28:54.877 So I'll, I'll make that connection after we're done here. 00:28:54.907 --> 00:28:55.897 That that'll be good. 00:28:56.182 --> 00:28:56.362 Yeah. 00:28:56.362 --> 00:28:56.722 Love that. 00:28:56.722 --> 00:28:57.177 Thank you so much. 00:28:57.457 --> 00:28:57.727 Yeah. 00:28:57.727 --> 00:29:03.217 So, uh, my last question is, uh, I asked this at the end of every interview. 00:29:03.217 --> 00:29:08.047 What is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a Transformative 00:29:08.047 --> 00:29:09.547 leader like you, Patrick. 00:29:12.142 --> 00:29:17.932 Man, that's a tough, I think, you know, there's so many things. 00:29:18.022 --> 00:29:25.852 Um, and it does really, I think it all comes back down to, uh, it 00:29:25.852 --> 00:29:27.202 all comes down to relationships. 00:29:27.202 --> 00:29:30.502 I've kind of two things I wanna say, but it all comes down to relationships. 00:29:30.742 --> 00:29:34.432 Um, taking the time to connect with your teachers, be there to support them. 00:29:35.332 --> 00:29:37.312 That's such a big thing to say, right? 00:29:37.312 --> 00:29:38.542 Because how do you do that? 00:29:38.542 --> 00:29:41.902 But, um, finding a way to stop by and connect with the teacher every 00:29:41.902 --> 00:29:46.312 day, or making sure when there's student behavior issues that 00:29:46.312 --> 00:29:47.752 the teacher doesn't feel alone. 00:29:48.322 --> 00:29:53.872 Or ways, you know, to build teacher practice. 00:29:53.962 --> 00:29:55.882 So they have increased efficacy. 00:29:56.272 --> 00:29:56.782 Um. 00:29:57.097 --> 00:30:00.817 And I guess I'll, I'll say to that is, is that a quote I use a lot is, 00:30:00.817 --> 00:30:05.227 is self-care is working in a system that you feel confident in, right? 00:30:05.227 --> 00:30:08.977 The story I tell is, is like during COVID, systems were a mess. 00:30:08.977 --> 00:30:13.687 And you like, how I responded was I bought a pool table and me and my 00:30:13.687 --> 00:30:19.027 buddies played pool till three in the morning often, that was our self-care. 00:30:19.027 --> 00:30:19.627 But guess what? 00:30:19.627 --> 00:30:21.187 We woke up the next day, tired. 00:30:21.617 --> 00:30:24.767 And struggling and we still had all of our work to do. 00:30:24.767 --> 00:30:25.097 Right. 00:30:25.097 --> 00:30:30.857 But, um, when you feel confident in the system, so as a teacher, when I 00:30:30.857 --> 00:30:36.017 feel confident that I can instruct my classroom, um, what teachers really want. 00:30:36.017 --> 00:30:37.637 That's real self-care for teachers. 00:30:37.637 --> 00:30:39.797 It's not going to get a massage after school. 00:30:40.157 --> 00:30:43.607 Teachers care so much about their, they care desperately about their kids. 00:30:43.907 --> 00:30:45.467 They just wanna be better teachers. 00:30:45.887 --> 00:30:47.297 So supporting them in that too. 00:30:48.987 --> 00:30:49.677 Very good. 00:30:49.677 --> 00:30:51.267 Well, this, this was awesome. 00:30:51.327 --> 00:30:54.537 Um, you can connect with, uh, Patrick and. 00:30:54.657 --> 00:30:58.407 The show notes, I have a link to his LinkedIn, A link to his book 00:30:58.407 --> 00:31:00.087 Theory can only take you so far. 00:31:00.447 --> 00:31:05.007 And a link to the app Ed Changer Pro, which you can, uh, get yourself 00:31:05.007 --> 00:31:06.627 and try it out and see how it goes. 00:31:06.987 --> 00:31:10.647 Um, Patrick, thanks so much for being part of Transformative Principle today. 00:31:11.172 --> 00:31:11.332 Yeah. 00:31:11.332 --> 00:31:12.802 Thank you so much for having me, Jethro. 00:31:12.802 --> 00:31:13.342 Appreciate you.