WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness, 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610 Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360 Ali: And then there are the 10, 000 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760 things. 00:00:22.749 --> 00:00:26.019 Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things, my name is Sam Ellis, I'm 00:00:26.019 --> 00:00:27.799 Joe Loh, and I'm Ali Catramados. 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:30.549 Today on the show, having a mentee bee. 00:00:32.294 --> 00:00:35.594 This is Ali Catramados phrase, the menti bee, short for mental breakdown. 00:00:35.834 --> 00:00:37.694 Yeah, I can't claim it, it's what the kids call it. 00:00:37.704 --> 00:00:38.144 It's a ripper. 00:00:38.244 --> 00:00:38.684 Is it? 00:00:38.714 --> 00:00:39.084 Yeah. 00:00:39.464 --> 00:00:40.954 God bless the kids, whoever they are. 00:00:40.954 --> 00:00:43.664 Ali representing the under 40s on this show. 00:00:44.044 --> 00:00:44.574 Yeah, yeah. 00:00:44.574 --> 00:00:48.004 Um, so a couple of months ago you mentioned this, that all your lady 00:00:48.004 --> 00:00:49.464 friends are having mental breakdowns. 00:00:50.174 --> 00:00:53.464 Well, I think collectively everybody's having a bit of a mental breakdown. 00:00:54.054 --> 00:00:57.404 Considering the current state of affairs, I don't mind if we gender it 00:00:57.404 --> 00:01:01.094 to begin with, though, because kind of along the lines of our last ep 00:01:01.094 --> 00:01:05.514 about, you know, where I revealed, you know, I would rather cut an arm off 00:01:05.514 --> 00:01:08.774 than like, ask someone for help, or even just invite someone for a coffee. 00:01:10.214 --> 00:01:15.774 That maybe we can gender this for a second and say that women are more likely to text 00:01:15.774 --> 00:01:17.504 a mate and say, I'm going to lose my shit. 00:01:17.839 --> 00:01:20.569 I think we're better at reaching out to our friends, I think, or to 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:24.999 our girlfriends for help, I do think generally, than men are asking for 00:01:24.999 --> 00:01:28.789 help, but to a point, to a point, yeah. 00:01:28.809 --> 00:01:29.349 Not always. 00:01:29.399 --> 00:01:29.859 Not always. 00:01:29.869 --> 00:01:31.989 And you might, they might tell you years later there was this 00:01:32.029 --> 00:01:34.309 thing going on, you're like, oh my God, you never even mentioned it. 00:01:35.389 --> 00:01:39.909 But you've had like four or five women friends or people you knew, 00:01:39.949 --> 00:01:42.949 friends of friends, I think in one or two cases, who were like... 00:01:43.394 --> 00:01:46.094 Through an alignment of different circumstances all at once we're just 00:01:46.094 --> 00:01:50.214 like I'm gonna go and live in a motel for a week Yeah, like it was really 00:01:50.214 --> 00:01:54.214 very much like yeah, we're joking, you know And being a middle aged white 00:01:54.214 --> 00:01:58.004 woman my culture is astrology that like, you know, Mercury's in retrograde 00:01:58.004 --> 00:02:01.144 or something So something's going on Venus retrograde happened recently. 00:02:01.164 --> 00:02:04.639 Yeah, like yeah supermoons big Yeah, all this, all this sort of stuff. 00:02:04.639 --> 00:02:07.359 So I thought you were going to say it was because of things happening 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:08.669 in the world, that there's a problem. 00:02:09.799 --> 00:02:12.699 Astrologically, there's things happening and that's why everyone's not coping. 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:15.079 But Joe, every time there's a Mercury retrograde, bad things 00:02:15.079 --> 00:02:18.206 do happen in the universe, Joe. 00:02:18.206 --> 00:02:18.748 Aren't you paying attention? 00:02:18.748 --> 00:02:21.869 So, but no, but, but what it feels like and whether this is the current 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:26.066 economic, know, state of affairs, it's everyone is, I mean, it's certainly 00:02:26.066 --> 00:02:30.001 feeling The financial struggles at the moment, even people who are, 00:02:30.031 --> 00:02:33.271 you know, on pretty good money and safe, secure jobs are struggling. 00:02:33.446 --> 00:02:33.736 true. 00:02:33.866 --> 00:02:36.246 So I think that that's compounding things. 00:02:36.266 --> 00:02:41.416 I think post sort of, I think it is a bit of a latent sort of post COVID. 00:02:41.431 --> 00:02:59.123 Thank you so much for joining us today, and we'll see you in the next one. 00:02:59.123 --> 00:03:00.229 Bye. 00:03:00.229 --> 00:03:01.334 Bye. 00:03:01.334 --> 00:03:02.440 Bye. 00:03:02.440 --> 00:03:03.546 Bye. 00:03:03.546 --> 00:03:04.652 Bye. 00:03:04.652 --> 00:03:05.757 Bye. 00:03:05.757 --> 00:03:06.863 Bye. 00:03:06.863 --> 00:03:07.969 Bye. 00:03:07.969 --> 00:03:09.075 Bye. 00:03:09.075 --> 00:03:10.180 Bye. 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:11.286 Bye. 00:03:11.866 --> 00:03:16.056 Collectively, there's been all these stresses that we potentially couldn't 00:03:16.056 --> 00:03:20.146 and didn't process during COVID that are all kind of catching up with us in this 00:03:20.146 --> 00:03:22.576 very stressful economic sort of time. 00:03:22.596 --> 00:03:27.346 And everyone is just not coping or it's mercury retrograde, 00:03:27.506 --> 00:03:28.296 whichever you want to believe. 00:03:28.626 --> 00:03:29.346 But, um. 00:03:29.376 --> 00:03:33.456 A whole bunch of straws got put on camels and all the camels went, ehhh. 00:03:33.726 --> 00:03:35.446 So the topic that I want to talk about. 00:03:35.666 --> 00:03:38.466 That was the background, is having a mental breakdown. 00:03:38.616 --> 00:03:40.176 Well, you know, we're building up to that. 00:03:40.176 --> 00:03:40.926 So let's talk about it. 00:03:40.936 --> 00:03:43.566 Well, what I liked, I really liked what one of the women said, which was 00:03:43.566 --> 00:03:46.226 like, it was just like, I've moved out. 00:03:46.621 --> 00:03:48.061 I'm in a, I'm in a motel. 00:03:48.091 --> 00:03:48.271 Yeah. 00:03:48.361 --> 00:03:50.311 I can't deal with anyone's stuff at all. 00:03:50.341 --> 00:03:50.491 Yeah. 00:03:50.731 --> 00:03:51.751 I'm just, I'm done. 00:03:51.841 --> 00:03:52.141 I'm done. 00:03:52.141 --> 00:03:52.981 I need a weekend off. 00:03:52.981 --> 00:03:52.982 Yeah. 00:03:53.041 --> 00:03:54.421 She actually just needed a weekend off. 00:03:54.421 --> 00:03:57.691 She was just at the end of her tether and I mean, god knows, I've had 00:03:57.691 --> 00:04:01.021 moments like that too, where I'm just like, I just don't want to be here. 00:04:01.231 --> 00:04:01.321 Yeah. 00:04:01.411 --> 00:04:04.681 And the, it's interesting, I've, I've talked to many, like my 00:04:04.686 --> 00:04:09.211 sister, my girlfriends, the, the common shared fantasy. 00:04:09.751 --> 00:04:11.641 is running away from your life. 00:04:11.801 --> 00:04:12.071 Oh yeah. 00:04:12.631 --> 00:04:14.351 For a, you know, just for a period of time. 00:04:14.361 --> 00:04:16.581 It's not that you don't love your kids and your partner, or 00:04:16.581 --> 00:04:17.711 your home and all those things. 00:04:17.721 --> 00:04:20.481 It's just, it's all too much and you just actually just need a break from it. 00:04:20.481 --> 00:04:25.251 Like a genuine break of, from caring about everybody else. 00:04:25.431 --> 00:04:28.091 Doesn't sound like any of those things that you said, 00:04:28.291 --> 00:04:30.091 uh, astrological or economic. 00:04:30.151 --> 00:04:31.361 It just sounds like middle age. 00:04:31.746 --> 00:04:35.586 It's probably, but I think what alignment of pressures, it's an alignment of 00:04:35.586 --> 00:04:38.906 pressures, but I think it's, yeah, like it's been compounded in this sort 00:04:38.906 --> 00:04:41.646 of post COVID sort of world, I think. 00:04:41.766 --> 00:04:44.876 And everything, yeah, like all of a sudden, all right, everything's meant to 00:04:44.876 --> 00:04:47.866 be back to normal, but everything doesn't quite feel like it's back to normal. 00:04:48.516 --> 00:04:52.636 Everybody's just not, it's been a rough few, like if you, you know, 00:04:52.656 --> 00:04:56.176 catching up with people, you know, since COVID, the last, you know, how 00:04:56.186 --> 00:04:57.746 have you been and how are you going? 00:04:58.456 --> 00:04:59.196 It's been a rough trot. 00:04:59.306 --> 00:05:03.476 That's, that's generally the thing I've been sensing with a lot of people my age. 00:05:03.476 --> 00:05:06.846 Like it's, it's been a rough few years or it's been, it's been a hard 00:05:06.856 --> 00:05:08.086 year or this has not been my year. 00:05:08.126 --> 00:05:10.396 That's the thing I'm consistently hearing. 00:05:10.786 --> 00:05:11.516 Yeah, that's right. 00:05:11.546 --> 00:05:12.206 And it's good. 00:05:12.386 --> 00:05:12.696 It's good. 00:05:12.696 --> 00:05:13.316 People can do it. 00:05:13.571 --> 00:05:17.641 And I think by going to the motel, she actually prevented a nervous breakdown, 00:05:17.971 --> 00:05:19.041 which is, you know, more the case. 00:05:19.631 --> 00:05:23.121 So, and then has anyone you know had one lately? 00:05:23.401 --> 00:05:27.331 Well, I mean, I know, um, I know someone else who has decided to 00:05:27.341 --> 00:05:31.521 take some extended time off work in order to prevent a mental breakdown. 00:05:31.751 --> 00:05:33.301 Um, because that's where they were heading. 00:05:33.412 --> 00:05:33.831 I. 00:05:34.311 --> 00:05:37.741 Yeah, like, and people taking mental health days from work just to, you 00:05:37.741 --> 00:05:40.791 know, so work is usually the thing they can put on hold in a practical 00:05:40.791 --> 00:05:43.551 sense because you can't necessarily put caring for kids on hold. 00:05:43.937 --> 00:05:48.087 yeah, trying to, and, and people trying to recenter themselves and taking that 00:05:48.087 --> 00:05:49.677 space in a preemptive kind of way. 00:05:49.677 --> 00:05:52.227 I mean, I've certainly tried to do those things. 00:05:53.162 --> 00:05:56.602 I'm also outside of work, like without taking time off work, but like with my 00:05:56.602 --> 00:06:01.372 time off being able to actually dedicate time, my time off to myself in order to 00:06:01.372 --> 00:06:06.132 recharge, unplug properly, like really actually schedule that time in because 00:06:06.132 --> 00:06:07.372 that's usually the first thing to go. 00:06:07.372 --> 00:06:11.602 And I think that's the problem is we've, it's the first thing to go. 00:06:11.602 --> 00:06:13.642 And so then we're not taking care of ourselves. 00:06:13.682 --> 00:06:15.302 We're just taking care of everything else. 00:06:15.582 --> 00:06:17.002 And that's when it all becomes too much. 00:06:17.002 --> 00:06:19.812 And if we've the prop, I had a really wise colleague years and 00:06:19.812 --> 00:06:21.462 years ago and she said, you cannot. 00:06:21.857 --> 00:06:23.147 Drink from an empty cup. 00:06:23.357 --> 00:06:25.267 You need to fill your cup up, Alex. 00:06:25.297 --> 00:06:28.697 And like, that was the thing that she, yeah, like what are 00:06:28.697 --> 00:06:30.137 the things that fill my cup up? 00:06:30.137 --> 00:06:34.047 And, you know, and so over the years and with therapy and actually, you 00:06:34.047 --> 00:06:37.687 know, I have a list of things like, you know, you know, going for hikes, 00:06:37.727 --> 00:06:41.997 going camping, you know, a complicated cooking project on the weekend. 00:06:42.217 --> 00:06:45.327 Something like that is something that gives me joy and, and. 00:06:45.897 --> 00:06:48.567 Fills my cup up so that I have something to draw on when I 00:06:48.567 --> 00:06:50.337 need it for everything else. 00:06:50.367 --> 00:06:50.727 That's right. 00:06:50.787 --> 00:06:53.637 And the thing I think we haven't had is the opportunities to 00:06:53.642 --> 00:06:54.927 fill our cup up over Covid. 00:06:54.932 --> 00:06:55.017 Yes. 00:06:55.017 --> 00:06:58.707 And so we're all running on empty and that's, and like, and for me this year, 00:06:58.707 --> 00:07:00.267 like my back, I've injured my back. 00:07:00.267 --> 00:07:00.327 Yeah. 00:07:00.327 --> 00:07:04.797 And so not being able to, to go camping or go on the hikes, Has actually been 00:07:04.797 --> 00:07:08.007 like, well, how am I, I'm needing to learn different ways to recharge. 00:07:08.007 --> 00:07:11.307 I'm guessing even some days you might not have had been able to have a walk even. 00:07:11.307 --> 00:07:11.457 No. 00:07:11.517 --> 00:07:11.817 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:11.817 --> 00:07:14.607 No, I've, I've literally been bedridden, so it's been, and that 00:07:14.607 --> 00:07:17.487 seems restful, but it's not when you're feeling frustrated No. 00:07:17.487 --> 00:07:19.257 That you're not actually doing the things you want to, you feel like 00:07:19.257 --> 00:07:20.937 you're just missing out and so, yeah. 00:07:20.937 --> 00:07:21.357 Oh yeah. 00:07:21.357 --> 00:07:23.427 And you can be, I read an article recently, like. 00:07:23.527 --> 00:07:27.450 You know, you take that week off, but you don't manage to mentally 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:29.880 separate yourself from what's going on. 00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:33.000 And then you're still burnt out and yeah, it's like taking the holiday 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:34.110 and then going straight back to work. 00:07:34.110 --> 00:07:36.650 And you're like, I don't feel like that was, that was just exhausting. 00:07:36.650 --> 00:07:39.080 Cause I've just, you know, traveled and dragged my ass. 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:39.340 Yeah. 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:39.900 I did all this stuff. 00:07:39.900 --> 00:07:41.370 I just stressed in a different place. 00:07:42.440 --> 00:07:45.650 I felt the pressure to be enjoying it and get the maximum value from 00:07:45.650 --> 00:07:49.680 all this money I've spent that I don't really have and all that sucks. 00:07:50.140 --> 00:07:51.190 And then, but I remember. 00:07:51.375 --> 00:07:57.045 like my first proper mental breakdown was kind of it was brought on by a range of 00:07:57.045 --> 00:08:01.975 pressures all occurring at the same time but funnily enough money wasn't really 00:08:01.975 --> 00:08:06.635 one of them and it was sort of none of this kind of stuff that weighs on people 00:08:06.635 --> 00:08:11.715 our age now not really it was coming it was something way more fundamental but 00:08:11.715 --> 00:08:16.305 all that stuff is fundamental of course if you say well it can be a great well 00:08:16.325 --> 00:08:20.738 i can imagine it'd be a great source of uh comfort to people, to like, have 00:08:20.768 --> 00:08:24.528 people to care for, and um, I'm not going to speak for anybody else, but 00:08:24.528 --> 00:08:29.723 certainly having other people to count on, and for them to count on me, and 00:08:29.733 --> 00:08:33.193 to like, have a role to play in their lives, that's very important to me now. 00:08:33.913 --> 00:08:38.655 But in my 20s, yeah, no one to really depend on me, and yet, I think there 00:08:38.655 --> 00:08:42.265 was a, there's an echo of the same sort of thing of like, I had a girlfriend. 00:08:43.260 --> 00:08:48.710 But we were in love and I thought, yep, you know, this is it for the, for the time 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.630 being and you know, everything's great and I'm about to start uni, it's all good. 00:08:51.743 --> 00:08:54.943 I think just like, no, I thought it was very different, but no, just like all the 00:08:54.943 --> 00:09:01.153 people you've discussed, one of the things that tipped me over the edge was a sudden 00:09:01.263 --> 00:09:04.783 panic because of trauma, childhood, you know, going to boarding school at a young 00:09:04.783 --> 00:09:08.783 age and you know, a bunch of things and my mum being sick with cancer at the time. 00:09:09.858 --> 00:09:14.204 That, all of a sudden I felt this nausea and this, I was appalled at the 00:09:14.204 --> 00:09:16.490 thought that love could just go away. 00:09:18.250 --> 00:09:22.170 Who's to say I won't remain, who's to say I'll remain in love with this person? 00:09:22.650 --> 00:09:26.236 Who's to say, years later right, what I really learnt about all 00:09:26.236 --> 00:09:29.643 that was, just very recently in therapy, the thought wasn't. 00:09:29.917 --> 00:09:31.317 Can I love them? 00:09:31.457 --> 00:09:32.637 That's what I thought it was about. 00:09:33.257 --> 00:09:33.947 And that's part of it. 00:09:34.117 --> 00:09:38.287 The other part was I actually didn't, and right up until quite recently, 00:09:38.587 --> 00:09:45.067 had no real trust in others to be there and continue to be there. 00:09:45.337 --> 00:09:49.147 And so it was, I was, it was coming, I had this guilt, I 00:09:49.147 --> 00:09:50.547 won't be there for that person. 00:09:51.017 --> 00:09:52.107 And I'll put my hand up. 00:09:52.107 --> 00:09:55.277 I'll be the first to say some of the worst times in my life were 00:09:55.277 --> 00:09:57.297 when I felt like I was being a bad. 00:09:58.072 --> 00:09:58.722 Boyfriend. 00:09:59.382 --> 00:10:01.642 Like, that I was failing to love this person. 00:10:01.642 --> 00:10:04.232 I was putting this distance there and I didn't know why. 00:10:04.562 --> 00:10:05.662 And the guilt of that. 00:10:06.637 --> 00:10:08.507 But until more recently, I didn't understand. 00:10:08.827 --> 00:10:12.987 It was also because I didn't feel I could, I could be depend, that I could 00:10:12.987 --> 00:10:16.087 depend on myself to look after that other person, that I could depend on 00:10:16.087 --> 00:10:20.357 myself to look after me and that that other person would actually stick around. 00:10:20.717 --> 00:10:22.287 Had no belief in that. 00:10:22.617 --> 00:10:27.247 So that was the thing that tipped me twice into a nervous breakdown. 00:10:27.477 --> 00:10:31.897 The first time it was very profound and I spent weeks with like, um. 00:10:32.262 --> 00:10:36.142 Just what you'd call, you know, panic attacks and, you know, 00:10:36.452 --> 00:10:39.632 chronic high anxiety and like very frequent panic attacks. 00:10:40.102 --> 00:10:43.692 And eventually under those conditions, you stop sleeping and eating, 00:10:43.832 --> 00:10:45.082 then you can't keep food down. 00:10:45.442 --> 00:10:48.812 And then so you just, you, and eventually, you know, you start 00:10:48.812 --> 00:10:51.282 to get delusion and psychosis. 00:10:51.732 --> 00:10:52.512 So that's what happened. 00:10:53.202 --> 00:10:57.372 And, you know, and then I caught, I finally threw in the towel and caught 00:10:57.372 --> 00:10:59.682 the train back to, you know, the country. 00:10:59.948 --> 00:11:04.115 And my mum picked me up at Geelong station and all of a sudden it all just drained 00:11:04.115 --> 00:11:11.285 out of my body and then I could just eat something and then went back to the family 00:11:11.285 --> 00:11:13.705 home and just kind of slept for a while. 00:11:14.015 --> 00:11:14.275 Yeah. 00:11:14.605 --> 00:11:14.905 Yeah. 00:11:15.855 --> 00:11:17.045 Slowly staged a recovery. 00:11:17.085 --> 00:11:17.445 Yeah. 00:11:17.505 --> 00:11:17.785 Yeah. 00:11:17.965 --> 00:11:22.275 No, it's, it's, um, it's, yeah, it's quite similar to me that, yeah, there was. 00:11:23.165 --> 00:11:27.385 I mean, I can only really count like one major one in recent history 00:11:27.385 --> 00:11:28.555 and where I ended up in hospital. 00:11:28.635 --> 00:11:30.895 And yeah, and it was because it was compounding factors. 00:11:30.895 --> 00:11:32.815 It wasn't just one thing. 00:11:32.815 --> 00:11:36.905 There was work stresses, relationship stresses, you know, life stresses. 00:11:36.905 --> 00:11:39.995 We were in the pandemic and it just, and then. 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:43.490 Like as, and I think I've used this example before, it's like you're trying 00:11:43.490 --> 00:11:47.750 to hold a beach ball underwater and at some point your arms are going to get 00:11:47.750 --> 00:11:51.320 tired from hot pushing that down and that's when it's going to Come back and 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:54.140 smack you in the face and that's when it's like, okay now deal with some childhood 00:11:54.160 --> 00:11:58.460 trauma And that's what happened for me It was like all the childhood trauma and 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:02.290 everything just bubbled up because and as my psych said yeah, your arms get tired 00:12:02.520 --> 00:12:07.950 Your bandwidth You know, to normally be able to keep a whole control over that 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:10.740 over the years has, you know, things will put pressure on it, but you've 00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:11.980 been able to keep it under control. 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:16.010 But now it's just been too much, too much, too soon. 00:12:16.400 --> 00:12:18.280 You're going to have to deal with this as well. 00:12:18.280 --> 00:12:20.290 Now it's unfortunately the reality of it. 00:12:20.290 --> 00:12:25.610 And so, yeah, being in hospital forced me for six weeks to actually 00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:27.210 just take a really solid sleep. 00:12:27.565 --> 00:12:30.555 You know, you know, rest, recharge, I didn't have to think 00:12:30.565 --> 00:12:33.275 about cooking or cleaning or all those caring responsibilities. 00:12:33.275 --> 00:12:39.085 It was just a place to rest, do therapy, and you know, get the medication right. 00:12:39.675 --> 00:12:44.740 And that's Yeah, and I think in that way, I think a Menti B or like a mental 00:12:44.740 --> 00:12:49.220 breakdown is actually a really, a great way to reset and redirect, and they're 00:12:49.230 --> 00:12:51.580 actually a very necessary process. 00:12:51.670 --> 00:12:53.260 It's very clarifying. 00:12:53.430 --> 00:12:54.000 Yes. 00:12:54.070 --> 00:12:54.530 Yeah. 00:12:54.580 --> 00:12:56.360 You don't, you don't do it because you're weak. 00:12:56.380 --> 00:13:00.410 You do it because you've been too strong, in inverted commas, for 00:13:00.410 --> 00:13:02.380 too long, too strong for too long. 00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:03.430 Then you'll have a Menti B. 00:13:03.430 --> 00:13:03.600 Yeah. 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:05.300 That's, I mean, that's. 00:13:05.620 --> 00:13:07.220 It's that breakdown or breakthrough. 00:13:07.390 --> 00:13:07.770 Yes. 00:13:08.070 --> 00:13:08.310 Yeah. 00:13:08.310 --> 00:13:11.400 And, and I think, and breakdown is the only way to do it often because people 00:13:11.400 --> 00:13:15.400 cannot give themselves permission to say no or fuck this or whatever they need 00:13:15.400 --> 00:13:17.050 to, whatever change they need to do. 00:13:17.420 --> 00:13:21.150 And I'm speaking for myself here, could not just draw the line on whatever. 00:13:21.380 --> 00:13:22.410 And, and that's what it's led to. 00:13:22.410 --> 00:13:23.770 It's like rite of passage stuff. 00:13:23.850 --> 00:13:27.600 Sometimes you have to have a mentee be, break down, breakthrough. 00:13:27.690 --> 00:13:27.940 Yeah. 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:33.230 Um, my one, I had one at 19, which was a coming of age and then I became an adult. 00:13:33.970 --> 00:13:36.720 And I had one at 35, which was the end of my relationship, and 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.440 then I stopped drinking alcohol and it changed my entire life. 00:13:40.490 --> 00:13:44.220 But you wouldn't have had the sobriety move without, you had to 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:46.010 go into the breakdown first, right? 00:13:46.020 --> 00:13:46.530 Yeah. 00:13:46.670 --> 00:13:47.000 Yeah. 00:13:47.410 --> 00:13:51.710 But I think I'm strong at the moment, and I'm glad I went through those 00:13:51.710 --> 00:13:55.530 breakdowns and saw what I saw, although psychosis is terrifying. 00:13:55.550 --> 00:13:56.050 Yeah. 00:13:56.273 --> 00:13:56.523 It is. 00:13:56.523 --> 00:13:58.863 But I think something what Ali said at the start. 00:13:59.738 --> 00:14:02.358 I think it's worth framing the pressures on people. 00:14:03.018 --> 00:14:05.548 I've been thinking about this lately, it's not post COVID, forget 00:14:05.548 --> 00:14:06.818 about COVID, it's ancient history. 00:14:07.778 --> 00:14:10.488 It's about, it's about something else. 00:14:10.568 --> 00:14:14.698 I think it's about, and there's some positivity in this. 00:14:14.708 --> 00:14:15.008 Yeah. 00:14:15.608 --> 00:14:18.318 The boomers are gonna start dying out. 00:14:18.988 --> 00:14:23.168 From Gen X down, so our age and a little bit older, down. 00:14:23.578 --> 00:14:26.408 We've got the, what we've, we're left with what we're left 00:14:26.408 --> 00:14:27.748 with to make the best of it. 00:14:27.818 --> 00:14:28.068 Yeah. 00:14:28.168 --> 00:14:29.548 Now, a couple of things. 00:14:30.728 --> 00:14:33.408 Are they going to get a little bit worse or a lot worse, they're not going to get 00:14:33.408 --> 00:14:35.588 much better and that is climate change. 00:14:36.168 --> 00:14:38.908 It's either going to get a little bit worse or a lot worse, and the 00:14:38.908 --> 00:14:41.738 geopolitical situation is either going to get a little bit worse or a lot worse. 00:14:41.738 --> 00:14:43.508 But those two things will get worse. 00:14:44.318 --> 00:14:48.458 Uh, and they're real things to worry about, I think. 00:14:48.968 --> 00:14:56.538 Um, but, to find sanity, I have to focus on my own little life. 00:14:57.388 --> 00:15:01.628 And now then there's the economic pressures of going into a recession and 00:15:01.678 --> 00:15:03.448 contradictions of capitalism and all that. 00:15:04.088 --> 00:15:06.018 But, actually... 00:15:06.658 --> 00:15:09.598 That stuff doesn't keep me up at night or stress me out much. 00:15:09.898 --> 00:15:14.398 The other, those two big, scary things, big and scary. 00:15:15.528 --> 00:15:19.408 But what I was going to say is, there used to be narratives. 00:15:20.288 --> 00:15:24.798 For the boomers era there was narratives whether it was around socialism or like 00:15:24.798 --> 00:15:30.028 the hippie movement or Just a narrative of progress even in the 50s and 60s, 00:15:30.028 --> 00:15:34.758 you know, I Don't think we should replace the complete breakdown of all 00:15:34.758 --> 00:15:36.608 narratives with some other narrative. 00:15:37.328 --> 00:15:42.378 I think we need to focus on Our little communities and our little mm hmm 00:15:42.918 --> 00:15:44.968 the processes in our little lives. 00:15:44.978 --> 00:15:45.388 Agreed. 00:15:45.658 --> 00:15:49.418 Yeah, because the world is ours now The boomers will be gone. 00:15:49.468 --> 00:15:50.078 That's right. 00:15:50.298 --> 00:15:53.318 And we've got to make the best of this planet that's going to 00:15:53.348 --> 00:15:57.288 be having, the conditions will be harder for human life, clearly. 00:15:57.378 --> 00:15:57.698 Yep. 00:15:57.888 --> 00:16:01.038 And there could be big fucking wars, right? 00:16:01.048 --> 00:16:01.698 Possibly, yeah. 00:16:01.758 --> 00:16:03.118 Um, so... 00:16:03.598 --> 00:16:05.268 The possibility has always been there, yeah. 00:16:05.298 --> 00:16:10.208 Yeah, it's just ramping up a bit, you know, again, potentially. 00:16:10.468 --> 00:16:15.278 I mean, there's a few people like Xi Jinping where you'd have to be 00:16:15.278 --> 00:16:16.598 able to read his mind to know... 00:16:17.278 --> 00:16:21.158 How bad things could get for a place like Australia, and we can't read his 00:16:21.158 --> 00:16:25.508 mind, so we don't know, but totally we're at the mercy of a few decisions 00:16:25.518 --> 00:16:27.658 in a few foreign capitals, right? 00:16:28.458 --> 00:16:31.388 Now, I find that stuff terrifying. 00:16:32.463 --> 00:16:36.813 But what I'm dropping is the illusion that I can control it 00:16:36.843 --> 00:16:38.393 by reading about it non stop. 00:16:39.283 --> 00:16:43.823 And the illusion that actually there is any action I can do in 00:16:43.823 --> 00:16:46.133 the world on that particular one. 00:16:46.143 --> 00:16:49.463 And there may not even be anything to be gained from understanding any of it. 00:16:50.213 --> 00:16:54.063 Yeah, but that's the stuff that will drive me to having a mental breakdown. 00:16:55.793 --> 00:16:59.463 If I think about the conditions of the world, the fact that we went 00:16:59.463 --> 00:17:03.048 through the pandemic, the fact that, you know, it costs more to buy some 00:17:03.048 --> 00:17:06.688 cheese at the supermarket doesn't, doesn't factor in for just for me. 00:17:07.068 --> 00:17:07.358 Okay. 00:17:07.358 --> 00:17:08.708 Well, that's, that's interesting. 00:17:08.738 --> 00:17:11.458 I do think those things will eat away at people. 00:17:11.598 --> 00:17:14.438 Um, well they, they clearly are, they clearly are. 00:17:14.588 --> 00:17:14.838 Yeah. 00:17:14.838 --> 00:17:17.998 And, and, and, and I'm not to say, not to dismiss what you're saying and like. 00:17:18.408 --> 00:17:21.958 So that you know people are described financial pressure to like the majority 00:17:21.958 --> 00:17:25.973 of their problems that that Maybe there aren't other things they should be 00:17:25.973 --> 00:17:27.563 thinking about or could be thinking about. 00:17:27.573 --> 00:17:29.255 Like, I agree with that, and certainly... 00:17:30.325 --> 00:17:32.875 But the financial stuff is just the day to day, and it becomes 00:17:33.125 --> 00:17:35.045 the outlet for the stress. 00:17:35.365 --> 00:17:36.375 It does, yeah, it does. 00:17:36.745 --> 00:17:40.015 And it becomes a thing to measure as well, because, yeah. 00:17:40.015 --> 00:17:43.615 Yeah, but actually these stressors are things like, 00:17:43.997 --> 00:17:45.747 having a kid with autism, or... 00:17:45.747 --> 00:17:48.897 Yes, or not having enough time for your partner, or not having 00:17:48.897 --> 00:17:49.417 enough time for your kids. 00:17:49.417 --> 00:17:51.167 Yeah, not having enough energy for... 00:17:51.167 --> 00:17:52.177 What I'm saying is... 00:17:52.977 --> 00:17:57.287 Where my head has always been is in the clouds with the big threats. 00:17:57.337 --> 00:17:57.777 Yeah. 00:17:58.287 --> 00:18:01.567 Going right, zooming right out to like an asteroid hitting 00:18:01.567 --> 00:18:03.377 the earth and killing everyone. 00:18:03.487 --> 00:18:06.337 Or whatever, or all the people that occupy themselves. 00:18:06.837 --> 00:18:09.637 with an obsession with whether we're in a simulation or not. 00:18:09.677 --> 00:18:12.687 And like, that's their way of kind of abstracting. 00:18:13.067 --> 00:18:16.127 Cause I, I think there's a double edged thing here, Joe, like thinking about 00:18:16.127 --> 00:18:18.847 geopolitics or epistemology or ontology. 00:18:18.887 --> 00:18:19.797 Do we even exist? 00:18:19.797 --> 00:18:20.557 And is this simulation? 00:18:20.567 --> 00:18:21.697 All that? 00:18:21.757 --> 00:18:22.857 Will Xi Jinping do this? 00:18:23.162 --> 00:18:23.992 We'll put and do that. 00:18:25.052 --> 00:18:26.952 To me, those things are all alike. 00:18:27.612 --> 00:18:30.482 They cannot be resolved and they're beyond your control. 00:18:30.522 --> 00:18:33.082 So it's actually safe to think about them in a strange way. 00:18:34.072 --> 00:18:38.192 It's just a crisis, but whether you're thinking about it on a macro level or a 00:18:38.192 --> 00:18:42.362 micro level and it's a lack of control and anxiety is a lack of control. 00:18:42.382 --> 00:18:43.202 And that's what it essentially is. 00:18:43.582 --> 00:18:45.822 It's a lack of control of the big issues. 00:18:46.132 --> 00:18:47.022 Like, yeah, whether it is. 00:18:47.352 --> 00:18:50.352 Global, you know, instability and climate change, or yeah, I 00:18:50.352 --> 00:18:51.682 can't pay my bills this week. 00:18:51.892 --> 00:18:54.982 It's still a lack of control over the situation, and that's what's causing 00:18:54.982 --> 00:18:58.772 you anxiety, and I think yeah, it obviously manifests in different ways 00:18:58.772 --> 00:19:01.322 for different people, but collectively there are always going to be these 00:19:01.332 --> 00:19:05.692 existential threats that, you know, I guess to tie it all together, what I'm 00:19:05.692 --> 00:19:08.632 saying is Us now taking over the world. 00:19:08.662 --> 00:19:09.822 The boom is dying out. 00:19:10.172 --> 00:19:14.612 Part of our community might be, Oh, such and such is off there 00:19:14.622 --> 00:19:16.582 having a mentee B for this week. 00:19:16.902 --> 00:19:19.792 We're going to help look after their kids because they need 00:19:19.802 --> 00:19:21.072 to have a full breakdown. 00:19:21.592 --> 00:19:24.252 But we know that in a month they're going to be more useful than they 00:19:24.252 --> 00:19:27.832 were, have been for the last year while they're barely hanging on. 00:19:27.842 --> 00:19:31.102 So we can, we might make, just like we might make psychedelic 00:19:31.102 --> 00:19:33.102 experience as part of our daily life. 00:19:33.627 --> 00:19:36.097 Or, you know, therapeutic practice. 00:19:36.497 --> 00:19:42.147 We might make mental breakdowns part of how we deal with the wave 00:19:42.147 --> 00:19:46.577 of pressures that we're under that, you know, for the most part, boomers 00:19:46.577 --> 00:19:47.717 just didn't have to deal with. 00:19:48.127 --> 00:19:49.057 Yeah, that's right. 00:19:49.067 --> 00:19:51.817 And the only thing that may be easing, well, one of the things we 00:19:51.817 --> 00:19:56.597 do have in common with them, I think, is that there was a geopolitical 00:19:56.807 --> 00:19:58.687 situation they had to deal with. 00:19:59.047 --> 00:20:03.156 But also, Annual leave, taking of annual leave has gone down since their 00:20:03.156 --> 00:20:06.506 time, but it is, but it is fair to say that there were a lot of boomers 00:20:06.526 --> 00:20:11.471 who People saw themselves as having an obligation to donate 60 hours of 00:20:11.471 --> 00:20:16.421 their time every week and that that was just normal and that they shouldn't be 00:20:16.421 --> 00:20:18.181 taking more than a week off in a year. 00:20:18.631 --> 00:20:21.041 And so I think there were a lot of them that saw that as normal and just 00:20:21.051 --> 00:20:22.581 plugged away in that way for years. 00:20:23.301 --> 00:20:26.031 Maybe one of the things that changed because of the pandemic was a 00:20:26.041 --> 00:20:29.591 feeling that that was a normal or acceptable thing to ask of people. 00:20:29.751 --> 00:20:34.046 And I think, and like, as you said in the intro, and to be fair to you, Joe, 00:20:34.046 --> 00:20:37.821 yes, geopolitics Has the potential to give me a nervous breakdown. 00:20:37.871 --> 00:20:38.511 Absolutely. 00:20:38.531 --> 00:20:42.771 If I, if I focused on it too much, that possibility does exist, but you were 00:20:42.771 --> 00:20:45.091 saying earlier about all the women, you know, dealing with the pressure 00:20:45.091 --> 00:20:47.841 from their jobs and not saying men aren't experiencing this as well. 00:20:47.841 --> 00:20:49.541 And I'm putting my hand up for it. 00:20:50.611 --> 00:20:55.551 And you know, and we're talking about good jobs and this pay and that sort of 00:20:55.551 --> 00:20:57.431 paid not, not so long ago on the show. 00:20:57.951 --> 00:21:00.971 And I was just thinking to myself, there's just no such thing as a good job, you 00:21:00.971 --> 00:21:06.011 know, and like, and, and shout out to all the small business owners out there. 00:21:06.051 --> 00:21:10.136 Cause there's, Hardly any small business people that have got a sustainable 00:21:10.766 --> 00:21:12.266 thing on their plate right now either. 00:21:12.796 --> 00:21:17.256 And so yeah, I just feel a lot of sympathy for all the people just being 00:21:17.286 --> 00:21:19.946 asked by the two major supermarkets. 00:21:20.471 --> 00:21:25.521 Um, who own, you know, the fuel and the pokies and the hardware and just 00:21:25.521 --> 00:21:31.311 basically own the distribution channels in the whole country and are causing 00:21:31.331 --> 00:21:36.341 truck drivers to crash into school buses and all of those motherfuckers 00:21:36.831 --> 00:21:42.591 that are just taking the piss and just adding a little 1% whenever they can, 00:21:42.601 --> 00:21:44.491 just ratcheting up, just ratcheting up. 00:21:44.511 --> 00:21:45.511 Ah, they'll keep taking it. 00:21:45.551 --> 00:21:48.251 Ah, they'll keep taking it, but I think you're right, Joe. 00:21:49.591 --> 00:21:54.741 Menti B is often the only way it can happen, and I'm actually almost regretting 00:21:55.048 --> 00:21:59.398 the number of people that have done the right, the smart self care thing 00:21:59.428 --> 00:22:02.318 and prevented it from happening, saw it coming and prevented it from happening. 00:22:03.318 --> 00:22:05.878 I'm going to make a proposal to everybody, stop doing that. 00:22:07.173 --> 00:22:11.463 Hang on until you lose it, and get that stress leave paid. 00:22:11.723 --> 00:22:15.153 Yeah, well, because, yeah, psychological leave. 00:22:16.163 --> 00:22:19.323 Yeah, because this is like, yeah, like you said, there's no job that's good. 00:22:19.343 --> 00:22:20.963 What there is, is there is a level of... 00:22:22.218 --> 00:22:22.318 Tolerability. 00:22:22.318 --> 00:22:25.138 Some jobs are more tolerable than others and what is happening... 00:22:25.138 --> 00:22:30.018 Some workplaces will actually respond a little bit Yeah, make adjustments 00:22:30.018 --> 00:22:33.358 to your workload or more flexibility, you know, like under the guise of... 00:22:33.358 --> 00:22:36.478 Just to make things just slightly more tolerable so that you don't... 00:22:37.793 --> 00:22:42.693 Just to keep you hanging on, and that's a really sad state of events, you know, 00:22:42.693 --> 00:22:47.953 to be in, and I think if, yeah, if, again though, those are some things we 00:22:47.953 --> 00:22:50.803 just don't have a lot of control over, because we're all forced to pay rent 00:22:50.803 --> 00:22:52.183 and mortgages and things like that, so. 00:22:52.283 --> 00:22:53.853 That's one of the things pinning us down. 00:22:53.883 --> 00:22:54.613 Exactly, so. 00:22:55.013 --> 00:22:57.173 While we're all forced to be a part of that system. 00:22:57.203 --> 00:22:57.323 Mm-hmm. 00:22:57.593 --> 00:23:00.203 . And it's about finding, I suppose, a workplace that is 00:23:00.203 --> 00:23:01.913 tolerable to your levels of Yeah. 00:23:01.913 --> 00:23:07.343 You know, stress and capacity, but also the time outside of work mm-hmm. 00:23:07.403 --> 00:23:09.413 To be also tolerable. 00:23:09.413 --> 00:23:12.653 Be, and, and the, the, the day-to-day stresses of your 00:23:12.653 --> 00:23:14.003 relationships, your kids mm-hmm. 00:23:14.003 --> 00:23:14.513 Commuting. 00:23:14.633 --> 00:23:14.993 Yeah. 00:23:14.993 --> 00:23:19.253 Or, you know, all of those commitments that they don't become intolerable. 00:23:19.253 --> 00:23:21.673 It's when it all becomes, It's completely intolerable that yeah, we 00:23:21.673 --> 00:23:23.393 can't, we don't, we're not coping. 00:23:23.403 --> 00:23:26.883 And so yeah, whether it's, I mean, I've been, like I said, fortunate in 00:23:26.883 --> 00:23:32.383 that now post actual breakdown when I've seen I'm not coping, it's about 00:23:32.383 --> 00:23:35.323 actually taking a step back and going, okay, I have to take this off my plate. 00:23:35.673 --> 00:23:37.393 I have to take, I have to pair things back. 00:23:37.393 --> 00:23:41.383 And I did say this to Joe actually really recently, you know, given all the stuff 00:23:41.383 --> 00:23:45.273 I've gone through this year, I'm actually making a very conscious decision that this 00:23:45.273 --> 00:23:49.093 next season of my life or spring, the next few months, I'm actually pairing things. 00:23:49.438 --> 00:23:52.528 Right back, you know, taking the things off my plate that I just don't have 00:23:52.528 --> 00:23:55.908 to do, or I'm not forced to do, in order to be able to get through it, 00:23:55.948 --> 00:23:57.583 because my bandwidth at the moment... 00:23:59.513 --> 00:24:02.443 So, you know, rather than just keep pushing through and pushing through and 00:24:02.443 --> 00:24:05.373 going, okay, I've just, I've got my annual leave booked, which is what I used to do. 00:24:05.373 --> 00:24:06.993 It'd be like, I've got my annual leave booked in. 00:24:07.223 --> 00:24:09.233 I'll just push through, push through, push through, push through. 00:24:09.453 --> 00:24:12.303 And then by the time I annually finally comes up, my body will 00:24:12.303 --> 00:24:13.593 just give up and I'll get sick. 00:24:13.603 --> 00:24:13.933 That's it. 00:24:13.983 --> 00:24:15.293 And I'll be so stressed. 00:24:15.293 --> 00:24:15.903 I don't enjoy it. 00:24:15.923 --> 00:24:17.883 And, and it's just this cycle of that. 00:24:17.883 --> 00:24:20.603 And I'm like, actually, I want to be in a good space to enjoy 00:24:20.633 --> 00:24:21.593 my annual leave this year. 00:24:21.593 --> 00:24:22.753 I don't want to be sick again. 00:24:23.043 --> 00:24:24.153 I would like to just have. 00:24:24.583 --> 00:24:29.073 You know, some time off from work to rest and do the things I actually enjoy doing 00:24:29.333 --> 00:24:34.713 and yeah, but actually that process needs to start way before you actually do it. 00:24:34.743 --> 00:24:38.193 You can't just skip, like the joke with my girlfriends and even my sister were 00:24:38.193 --> 00:24:40.633 like, I'm going to schedule in my Menti B. 00:24:40.883 --> 00:24:44.683 It's like I'm scheduling it in for my time off and we're very used to Like, 00:24:44.683 --> 00:24:48.573 not taking that on company time when we should be having the psychological leave. 00:24:48.573 --> 00:24:50.053 You should be losing your shit on company time. 00:24:50.083 --> 00:24:53.443 Yeah, you should be, you should be doing it then and, and, and, I 00:24:53.443 --> 00:24:55.833 mean, it's very hard to, but yeah. 00:24:56.173 --> 00:25:00.883 Well, the thing that's preventing us is if I'm the squeaky wheel, the system 00:25:00.883 --> 00:25:05.833 will throw me on the pile, but I put it to you, we've reached a tipping point. 00:25:06.968 --> 00:25:10.498 Literally, within the self and within the group, the larger 00:25:10.498 --> 00:25:12.018 group that we all belong to. 00:25:12.578 --> 00:25:15.748 Margaret Thatcher said there's no such thing as society, only individuals, right? 00:25:15.848 --> 00:25:19.088 And if we stay in that kind of thinking, Margaret Thatcher 00:25:19.088 --> 00:25:20.608 was an exemplary Marxist. 00:25:20.618 --> 00:25:26.238 She understood class warfare in intimate detail and knew exactly how to wage it. 00:25:26.511 --> 00:25:30.071 when she said that, it struck a lot of people as disgusting because we 00:25:30.161 --> 00:25:34.931 still, even A lot of right wingers still had a collectivist feeling. 00:25:36.091 --> 00:25:39.071 Fast forward 40 years from her saying that, and we're there. 00:25:39.671 --> 00:25:40.651 We're not a society. 00:25:40.751 --> 00:25:41.661 We're individuals. 00:25:41.691 --> 00:25:42.671 Well, that's what it feels like. 00:25:42.671 --> 00:25:43.081 Yes. 00:25:43.111 --> 00:25:44.431 But that's purely an illusion. 00:25:44.601 --> 00:25:45.451 Society's there. 00:25:46.036 --> 00:25:46.616 If you want it. 00:25:46.916 --> 00:25:48.176 War is over if you want it. 00:25:48.306 --> 00:25:50.856 And if when you realize, I'm not the only one feeling this way. 00:25:50.956 --> 00:25:52.446 Everybody's feeling this way. 00:25:52.446 --> 00:25:54.136 I don't use the word society. 00:25:54.186 --> 00:25:55.406 I use the word community. 00:25:55.486 --> 00:25:56.246 That's the better one. 00:25:56.406 --> 00:25:57.946 And I'm not a Marxist like you. 00:25:57.986 --> 00:25:58.366 Circle. 00:25:58.406 --> 00:26:01.646 And I don't think what you two are talking about whinging about work 00:26:01.646 --> 00:26:04.156 and And getting dodgy time off. 00:26:04.186 --> 00:26:05.066 I don't think that's the answer. 00:26:05.146 --> 00:26:06.086 No, no, it's not dodgy. 00:26:06.616 --> 00:26:08.616 delegitimize it. 00:26:08.636 --> 00:26:12.526 If I've been through two mental breakdowns and both of them were a 00:26:12.526 --> 00:26:18.416 clarifying crisis, which made me grow and made me a stronger, clearer person. 00:26:18.416 --> 00:26:19.486 I'm speaking up in favor of them. 00:26:19.496 --> 00:26:23.036 What if society's going through a collective crisis? 00:26:23.046 --> 00:26:23.446 Agreed. 00:26:23.736 --> 00:26:25.166 And it's a clarifying crisis. 00:26:25.176 --> 00:26:25.546 Agreed. 00:26:25.576 --> 00:26:26.456 So this is my... 00:26:26.836 --> 00:26:28.706 So it relies on people being honest about this. 00:26:29.096 --> 00:26:29.986 That's what I'm saying. 00:26:30.256 --> 00:26:31.966 It's actually for our generation. 00:26:32.521 --> 00:26:36.811 Not that we live in some kind of utopia ever, although some AI people will 00:26:36.811 --> 00:26:38.361 say that maybe that can come about. 00:26:38.391 --> 00:26:38.911 Of course. 00:26:38.971 --> 00:26:42.891 But the hope is that we have some good days amongst the shitty days. 00:26:42.931 --> 00:26:43.201 Yeah. 00:26:43.401 --> 00:26:48.681 And we have some great moments, and we have some highs amongst the lows, but 00:26:48.681 --> 00:26:52.601 we drop a narrative of everything's great or everything's terrible. 00:26:52.651 --> 00:26:53.671 No, I agree with that. 00:26:53.671 --> 00:26:56.471 And we just focus, and the word that keeps coming back to me is community, 00:26:56.471 --> 00:26:58.661 which can be a cricket club or... 00:26:59.006 --> 00:27:01.746 Your, um, you know, whatever. 00:27:02.486 --> 00:27:03.676 No, I agree completely. 00:27:03.676 --> 00:27:05.836 Like, it seems small beer. 00:27:05.896 --> 00:27:08.836 I think the stuff you're talking about is very small beer, like take a few 00:27:08.836 --> 00:27:10.036 days stress leave, who gives a fuck? 00:27:10.266 --> 00:27:13.006 No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm talking about The cricket club seems small beer 00:27:13.006 --> 00:27:16.176 too, but it's actually not, because No, I'm talking about That's where, we're 00:27:16.176 --> 00:27:17.976 not individuals, we're a collective. 00:27:17.986 --> 00:27:18.246 Agreed. 00:27:18.246 --> 00:27:20.426 Sport is one of the last places where you see that. 00:27:20.906 --> 00:27:23.526 So, that But it's a strong culture in Australia. 00:27:23.536 --> 00:27:24.926 Agreed, no, that's why I don't shit on it. 00:27:24.976 --> 00:27:25.776 It's very important. 00:27:26.486 --> 00:27:28.956 There's a number of people that would not be alive today if it wasn't 00:27:28.966 --> 00:27:30.726 for community sport, like 100%. 00:27:31.026 --> 00:27:32.236 Like, I don't dismiss it at all. 00:27:32.236 --> 00:27:32.826 I used to. 00:27:32.926 --> 00:27:34.596 I used to be that kind of inner city artist. 00:27:34.636 --> 00:27:36.736 Yeah, yeah, like you want to shut down the local golf course 00:27:36.736 --> 00:27:38.176 and turn it into housing. 00:27:38.436 --> 00:27:39.286 Fuck golf. 00:27:42.856 --> 00:27:44.096 I played a round of golf yesterday. 00:27:44.466 --> 00:27:45.556 No, look, it's fine. 00:27:45.656 --> 00:27:47.066 Okay, golf is fine. 00:27:47.456 --> 00:27:51.196 Can it somehow, can we have golf and it occupies one percent of the... 00:27:51.846 --> 00:27:54.316 Public land that it currently occupies. 00:27:54.836 --> 00:27:55.576 Can we have that? 00:27:56.106 --> 00:27:57.026 Oh, can't be done? 00:27:57.086 --> 00:27:58.976 Oh well, I guess golf gets the arse. 00:27:59.206 --> 00:28:01.506 How about people just have a little bit of fun, Sam? 00:28:01.736 --> 00:28:03.186 Uh, anyway, that's a sidetrack. 00:28:03.206 --> 00:28:04.096 No, no, 100%. 00:28:04.146 --> 00:28:05.131 But look, that's what, look. 00:28:05.681 --> 00:28:09.841 Speaking up in favor of community and at the same time speaking 00:28:09.841 --> 00:28:12.411 up in favor of, I'm not talking three days of stress leave here. 00:28:12.461 --> 00:28:15.101 This is like significant time off to rest and recharge. 00:28:15.311 --> 00:28:15.891 Yes. 00:28:16.161 --> 00:28:18.501 It would sound great for the economy for people to be not 00:28:18.511 --> 00:28:19.751 going to work but getting paid. 00:28:19.801 --> 00:28:22.751 You're already all staying home and getting paid, which blows my mind. 00:28:22.791 --> 00:28:23.541 On the contrary. 00:28:23.691 --> 00:28:24.661 Someone has to go to the workplace. 00:28:24.811 --> 00:28:25.441 On the contrary. 00:28:25.471 --> 00:28:26.471 It's good for the economy. 00:28:26.481 --> 00:28:26.861 Yeah. 00:28:27.141 --> 00:28:28.841 Because you'll be a better, you will be better. 00:28:29.291 --> 00:28:33.021 And more well adjusted and rested to be able to be a better employee. 00:28:33.201 --> 00:28:33.751 It actually makes sense. 00:28:34.211 --> 00:28:36.466 But your conditions are getting better, both of you work from home 00:28:36.466 --> 00:28:38.077 a few days a week, like come on! 00:28:38.077 --> 00:28:39.301 No, I'm doing the five. 00:28:40.371 --> 00:28:42.071 Yeah, but, but can I say this? 00:28:42.071 --> 00:28:45.231 Come on though, like, this is actually the area where things are improving. 00:28:45.351 --> 00:28:50.651 Yes, no, in some ways, but it doesn't change the fact that there's a feeling 00:28:50.681 --> 00:28:54.221 of like, in Ali's case, from home or not. 00:28:55.151 --> 00:28:59.801 It's not a burden you can carry successfully every day, every week. 00:28:59.801 --> 00:29:03.071 It totally is, and it's a lesser burden than it used to be for most 00:29:03.071 --> 00:29:04.381 people in the history of humanity. 00:29:04.501 --> 00:29:08.441 No, but like the idea, okay, yeah, you can work from home, great. 00:29:08.721 --> 00:29:11.171 And it's been really, it makes it so much more accessible for people 00:29:11.171 --> 00:29:12.231 with disabilities and mental health. 00:29:12.231 --> 00:29:13.001 Saves a fortune on commuting. 00:29:13.021 --> 00:29:15.721 Commute, yeah, like traffic, like there's so many benefits to it. 00:29:15.921 --> 00:29:17.591 But what we're finding now is that... 00:29:18.036 --> 00:29:19.116 Well, one, actually no. 00:29:19.116 --> 00:29:19.896 Come back to the office. 00:29:19.896 --> 00:29:20.216 Mm-hmm. 00:29:20.301 --> 00:29:23.016 , because we have to justify middle management's like existence. 00:29:23.046 --> 00:29:23.166 Yeah. 00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:24.380 because we don't Good luck to them. 00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:24.680 Yeah. 00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:26.900 Because we don't trust, you know, people mm-hmm. 00:29:27.170 --> 00:29:27.770 to be on their own. 00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:30.410 There's also the pressure of being at home and going, well, I don't 00:29:30.410 --> 00:29:32.680 wanna feel like I'm taking the piss I actually want, and so mm-hmm. 00:29:32.810 --> 00:29:35.060 and putting unnecessary ex, you know? 00:29:35.180 --> 00:29:35.270 Mm-hmm. 00:29:35.510 --> 00:29:37.100 , like if, if Phil was in the office. 00:29:37.515 --> 00:29:41.075 And doing less work, it would feel not so bad because you, there's still 00:29:41.075 --> 00:29:44.915 that level of presenteeism, whereas at home, like, you know, you're just like, 00:29:44.915 --> 00:29:46.385 okay, I have to be on all the time. 00:29:46.385 --> 00:29:47.495 That is certainly a thing. 00:29:47.495 --> 00:29:48.148 A lot of people experience. 00:29:48.148 --> 00:29:51.495 It's actually blown some people's work life balance completely out of the water. 00:29:51.495 --> 00:29:53.755 Like it's blurred those lines of, I'll just stay a little bit 00:29:53.755 --> 00:29:54.625 longer because I'm not commuting. 00:29:54.625 --> 00:29:57.895 I can finish that thing off and next thing you've actually donated three or 00:29:57.895 --> 00:30:02.505 four hours extra of your time to the company rather than, happens all the time. 00:30:02.505 --> 00:30:04.005 So there's pros and cons. 00:30:04.005 --> 00:30:04.275 I'm not. 00:30:04.665 --> 00:30:07.355 You know, I mean, so it doesn't just saying, Oh, working from home is 00:30:07.355 --> 00:30:10.415 easier is not actually and there are people that are successfully taking 00:30:10.415 --> 00:30:11.695 the piss while working from home. 00:30:11.695 --> 00:30:12.035 Of course. 00:30:12.315 --> 00:30:14.985 And when I say successfully, I mean making it work for them. 00:30:15.325 --> 00:30:19.245 But here's the thing, the number of people who took the piss on campus, 00:30:19.865 --> 00:30:22.275 like, and you know, Oh, there's a person like always walking around the 00:30:22.275 --> 00:30:26.435 office just, you know, who serially have watched people do this over the years. 00:30:26.435 --> 00:30:29.825 Like they might be just holding something and just go up to each, 00:30:29.835 --> 00:30:32.925 you know, little group of desks to have a chat about a thing. 00:30:33.005 --> 00:30:33.185 Yeah. 00:30:33.485 --> 00:30:33.945 And then. 00:30:33.945 --> 00:30:34.285 Yeah. 00:30:34.645 --> 00:30:36.175 Literally wasted the half the day. 00:30:36.335 --> 00:30:38.005 Time wasters and tyre kickers everywhere. 00:30:38.035 --> 00:30:39.235 And they're not actually doing anything. 00:30:39.235 --> 00:30:40.115 What's the whinge? 00:30:40.135 --> 00:30:43.185 Because back in the 90s it was cute and funny that everyone had pointless 00:30:43.185 --> 00:30:44.365 office jobs and everyone slacked off. 00:30:44.375 --> 00:30:45.525 No, it's not cute and funny. 00:30:45.525 --> 00:30:46.595 It's an absolute tragedy. 00:30:46.605 --> 00:30:48.515 It's a waste of life and time. 00:30:48.515 --> 00:30:50.075 It's such a drain on human potential. 00:30:50.095 --> 00:30:53.145 It's a tragedy and it's a farce. 00:30:53.145 --> 00:30:55.355 It's the ultimate kind of tragedy which is farce. 00:30:55.585 --> 00:30:57.925 Right, and it's like, so I think. 00:30:58.600 --> 00:31:02.410 A kind of clearing of some of the dead wood, you know, like, can 00:31:02.410 --> 00:31:03.910 we figure out a way to do that? 00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:08.580 Because, you know, one of the things that told me Elon Musk was tipping over 00:31:08.740 --> 00:31:13.310 and that, you know, things were about to slide was not a lot of the obvious 00:31:13.320 --> 00:31:17.971 things people will point out, like calling the cave rescuers, molesters or any of 00:31:17.971 --> 00:31:19.661 the other alarming things he was doing. 00:31:19.889 --> 00:31:22.639 let's set off nuclear devices on the poles of Mars to kickstart 00:31:22.649 --> 00:31:23.989 the terraforming of that planet. 00:31:24.649 --> 00:31:26.239 No, none of that really obvious stuff. 00:31:26.429 --> 00:31:30.288 The thing that, for me, got me really thinking was when he said, Uh, okay, 00:31:30.288 --> 00:31:34.538 everyone at Tesla, come back to the office, or you can pretend to 00:31:34.538 --> 00:31:36.248 work from home for somebody else. 00:31:36.918 --> 00:31:41.788 And I was like, not only is that incredibly tone deaf and is going 00:31:41.788 --> 00:31:44.258 to absolutely give a whole lot of your employees and a whole lot of 00:31:44.258 --> 00:31:46.448 other people the shits, but also... 00:31:46.948 --> 00:31:50.498 It shows a complete, you are a gormless fool, I suddenly realised. 00:31:50.728 --> 00:31:55.348 You think that because people are in the office they're doing honest work. 00:31:55.798 --> 00:31:57.008 You poor, poor fool. 00:31:57.028 --> 00:31:58.678 How did you get this far in life? 00:31:59.658 --> 00:32:00.698 Can you even read? 00:32:00.878 --> 00:32:02.118 I know what he's saying though. 00:32:02.808 --> 00:32:05.438 As someone who's never really worked from home, I know exactly what he's saying. 00:32:05.578 --> 00:32:08.008 Yeah, and he's trying to tap into a certain kind of inverse 00:32:08.008 --> 00:32:09.538 classism on your part, too. 00:32:09.548 --> 00:32:10.658 It's like a common sense, I guess. 00:32:10.658 --> 00:32:11.488 Because it's, I mean... 00:32:11.488 --> 00:32:15.008 It's like a common sense, probably a carpenter or a plumber would 00:32:15.008 --> 00:32:17.698 look at someone from home going, oh yeah, you're working, are ya? 00:32:17.748 --> 00:32:18.078 But like... 00:32:18.698 --> 00:32:21.738 That's the common sense side of it, is like, you guys are slacking off. 00:32:21.788 --> 00:32:22.048 But like... 00:32:22.058 --> 00:32:22.408 Yeah, go on, go on, Ali. 00:32:22.408 --> 00:32:25.118 I was going to say, with my job, there's actually very... 00:32:25.838 --> 00:32:28.088 the demonstrated output. 00:32:28.263 --> 00:32:29.973 You can actually see it's tracked. 00:32:30.073 --> 00:32:32.163 It has tracked the tasks that are done and not done. 00:32:32.513 --> 00:32:36.283 And I have been able to, and the reason I've been able to negotiate working from 00:32:36.283 --> 00:32:39.463 home is because my output from home. 00:32:39.463 --> 00:32:40.923 The deliverables are so obvious. 00:32:40.963 --> 00:32:45.753 It's so much, so much more significant. 00:32:45.763 --> 00:32:48.673 You're actually a Menti B and how we deal with the, some of the conditions that 00:32:48.673 --> 00:32:53.533 we're under is that you've had physical and mental health challenges this year. 00:32:54.453 --> 00:32:58.663 But you've had a really good therapist who you've now taking a break from 00:32:58.683 --> 00:33:02.263 because you've processed it and actually you're sitting here You're happy. 00:33:02.313 --> 00:33:02.973 You're calm. 00:33:03.393 --> 00:33:07.813 You're you know, you've you seem to be just making enough money to get by 00:33:08.453 --> 00:33:12.563 You're a good example of the answer is probably therapy for most people 00:33:12.783 --> 00:33:16.553 Yeah, for sure and the government in Australia pays for 10 sessions for 00:33:17.248 --> 00:33:18.568 Anyone who wants them, pretty much. 00:33:18.568 --> 00:33:20.188 Well, therapies, yeah, but there's a gap. 00:33:20.328 --> 00:33:21.128 It's part of it. 00:33:21.158 --> 00:33:22.308 But there's a gap there for most people. 00:33:22.348 --> 00:33:25.058 The thing is, you can go to therapy and talk about your problems, but 00:33:25.058 --> 00:33:27.788 if you're not actually then going home and putting into place those 00:33:27.818 --> 00:33:30.138 things, then it's a waste of time. 00:33:30.258 --> 00:33:31.298 You're not actually doing much. 00:33:32.078 --> 00:33:33.418 So, that's the doing the work part. 00:33:33.418 --> 00:33:34.198 Yeah, the doing the work. 00:33:34.238 --> 00:33:36.088 And now you're sitting here and it's the start of spring. 00:33:36.608 --> 00:33:39.088 And you've got a plan for yeah, but you're pretty good. 00:33:39.088 --> 00:33:39.398 Right. 00:33:39.428 --> 00:33:45.158 Even though you're like worse than a lot of people, the average person probably, 00:33:45.188 --> 00:33:48.428 but what it is, is actually having the time and space to do the doing. 00:33:48.658 --> 00:33:50.568 And that's where people are feeling. 00:33:50.598 --> 00:33:51.088 That's right. 00:33:51.528 --> 00:33:53.208 They don't have the capacity to do the doing. 00:33:53.698 --> 00:33:55.828 And so that's what, so nothing's then getting done. 00:33:55.898 --> 00:33:57.878 It's that personal, it's that personal work time. 00:33:57.878 --> 00:33:59.498 That's getting pinched, I think. 00:33:59.508 --> 00:34:01.398 And that's, what's leading to these menti bees. 00:34:01.398 --> 00:34:04.678 If you don't have the time and space to actually do the work that you need to 00:34:04.678 --> 00:34:06.018 do, because it's all very well and good. 00:34:06.028 --> 00:34:09.588 The work of doing your three pages, the work of running a bath, self 00:34:09.588 --> 00:34:12.318 care, like, you know, self care. 00:34:12.368 --> 00:34:14.828 That's the thing that keeps the crisis at bay. 00:34:14.868 --> 00:34:18.128 So that self care serves capitalism because I agree with that. 00:34:18.138 --> 00:34:18.578 The worker. 00:34:20.883 --> 00:34:21.453 And it drives consumption. 00:34:22.333 --> 00:34:23.803 It's like, it's like radiohead. 00:34:23.803 --> 00:34:26.373 It's like fitter, happier, more productive. 00:34:26.423 --> 00:34:27.593 That's self care to me. 00:34:27.613 --> 00:34:27.903 Yes. 00:34:28.313 --> 00:34:28.643 Agreed. 00:34:28.653 --> 00:34:32.073 But the thing is, if you're, that's been chiseled away and you'd no longer 00:34:32.083 --> 00:34:37.583 have your job, the circumstances are so intolerable and you can't then actually 00:34:37.583 --> 00:34:41.553 do the self care, you're going to crack because it is not, you're drawing 00:34:41.553 --> 00:34:43.133 from an, you know, an empty well. 00:34:43.183 --> 00:34:43.533 That's it. 00:34:43.933 --> 00:34:44.233 Yeah. 00:34:44.263 --> 00:34:44.973 That's exactly right. 00:34:44.973 --> 00:34:49.143 And, and also the self care thing, it's really pointing us away from. 00:34:49.453 --> 00:34:54.473 The other thing that, you know, can be so helpful in healing and also give us 00:34:54.473 --> 00:34:59.393 resilience and sustenance and make our lives bearable and sustainable and, and 00:34:59.423 --> 00:35:01.733 meaningful, which is community, right? 00:35:02.273 --> 00:35:06.223 And, you know, so self care steers us away from that community idea and 00:35:06.683 --> 00:35:09.513 towards something that's a little bit more consumption based a lot of the time. 00:35:09.623 --> 00:35:11.403 Now, having said that, I'm in favor of. 00:35:11.938 --> 00:35:15.178 The really important and effective self care, i. 00:35:15.178 --> 00:35:15.308 e. 00:35:15.318 --> 00:35:19.928 the three pages, or the meditation, or, you know, the stuff that's 00:35:19.938 --> 00:35:21.268 actually, you know, effective. 00:35:21.278 --> 00:35:23.928 But I think self care can also include community. 00:35:23.928 --> 00:35:24.458 I mean, it certainly has... 00:35:24.458 --> 00:35:25.048 And hobbies. 00:35:25.248 --> 00:35:28.138 Yeah, hobbies and those sorts of, those are the things that are very much that 00:35:28.138 --> 00:35:30.548 fall by the wayside that I've, you know... 00:35:30.698 --> 00:35:32.388 Like it's all very well and good to say, Oh, you're sitting here 00:35:32.388 --> 00:35:35.278 and you're doing well, which I feel like 10 hours of telly is not so. 00:35:35.278 --> 00:35:36.208 Yeah, exactly. 00:35:36.228 --> 00:35:40.138 And I feel like what I've done and I've really made conscious choices. 00:35:40.138 --> 00:35:44.108 Like I said, the last, however long to build those things into my life. 00:35:44.138 --> 00:35:47.478 And that includes community, making sure I see my friends, 00:35:47.478 --> 00:35:49.588 making sure I, you know, you know. 00:35:49.873 --> 00:35:52.923 getting some sort of exercise or walking or whatever that all the things things 00:35:52.933 --> 00:35:54.323 that you know, don't cost anything. 00:35:54.653 --> 00:35:56.283 It's not necessary a consumption thing. 00:35:56.293 --> 00:35:57.773 It's just that time. 00:35:57.773 --> 00:35:59.823 And that's meant taking time. 00:35:59.843 --> 00:36:01.163 That's the time that's getting pinched. 00:36:01.173 --> 00:36:02.283 That's the time getting pinched from work. 00:36:02.293 --> 00:36:06.053 And I've actually reduced my hours at work in order to facilitate that. 00:36:06.083 --> 00:36:08.893 And I mean, that's a privilege because not, and that's the thing. 00:36:08.893 --> 00:36:09.583 A lot of people. 00:36:09.973 --> 00:36:12.363 You know, it means you're not saving, but yeah, exactly. 00:36:12.363 --> 00:36:16.313 And so in this current, you know, economic crisis, people who just don't have that 00:36:16.313 --> 00:36:19.123 option, they just don't have that option to pull back from work a little bit. 00:36:19.123 --> 00:36:21.113 The first thing that goes is a walk with a mate. 00:36:21.333 --> 00:36:22.243 Yeah, exactly. 00:36:22.243 --> 00:36:22.343 Yeah. 00:36:22.343 --> 00:36:24.413 Like, you're like, I'm too tired to do that. 00:36:24.433 --> 00:36:29.013 Or volunteering, volunteering at the, the junior sports, like that, that goes. 00:36:29.053 --> 00:36:29.373 Yep. 00:36:29.543 --> 00:36:29.673 Yeah. 00:36:29.783 --> 00:36:30.973 Or like, you know, yeah. 00:36:30.973 --> 00:36:34.513 Going on the committee for the, this or the, that, like, and that's the stuff 00:36:34.543 --> 00:36:36.633 that while it's an output of energy. 00:36:37.703 --> 00:36:42.443 It involves you, implicates you with other people, and that's sustainable. 00:36:42.443 --> 00:36:45.573 But this working longer hours, and instead they've got more time at home, 00:36:45.863 --> 00:36:47.693 working from home, and working less hours. 00:36:47.773 --> 00:36:50.143 No, no, no, that's not what's happening, that's not what's happening. 00:36:50.143 --> 00:36:53.203 You've mentioned this before on the show, it's like you guys can't, I mean 00:36:53.203 --> 00:36:56.083 we're not an empirical show that backs things up with stats, but you guys are 00:36:56.203 --> 00:36:58.213 just vibing this, and there's no... 00:36:58.593 --> 00:37:00.683 No, no, no, no, no, no. 00:37:00.923 --> 00:37:01.223 Okay. 00:37:01.453 --> 00:37:04.863 There's no graph showing me that people in Australia are working heaps 00:37:04.863 --> 00:37:06.213 more hours and losing family time. 00:37:06.383 --> 00:37:06.913 I want to be clear. 00:37:07.593 --> 00:37:08.923 People are taking less annual leave. 00:37:08.923 --> 00:37:11.283 They might have meaningless jobs, but they're not working more. 00:37:11.323 --> 00:37:15.073 My work, no, my work life balance, just to be clear right now is, is perfect. 00:37:15.083 --> 00:37:15.583 It's fine. 00:37:15.893 --> 00:37:20.143 But I do know a lot of people, no, but I know, but I know a lot of people that 00:37:20.143 --> 00:37:27.623 are actually doing more of that blurred work time thing in the evening or early 00:37:27.623 --> 00:37:30.863 in the morning, or sometimes they like. 00:37:31.288 --> 00:37:33.878 Like, I've got a friend who was recently, like, he said, oh, 00:37:33.878 --> 00:37:35.178 I've fallen into this routine. 00:37:35.188 --> 00:37:37.328 I couldn't work out why I couldn't reach him at certain. 00:37:37.703 --> 00:37:39.413 Just normal times that I could. 00:37:39.863 --> 00:37:42.863 And eventually he went, Oh no, I've been like falling asleep after dinner 00:37:43.293 --> 00:37:47.073 and then waking up and doing a few hours work and then going back to bed. 00:37:47.073 --> 00:37:49.183 And I'm like, that's completely fucked. 00:37:49.583 --> 00:37:50.693 You've got to stop doing that. 00:37:51.363 --> 00:37:55.293 And he said, yeah, I'm going to have to go to the office in order to regulate this. 00:37:55.523 --> 00:37:59.543 Yeah, no, I was, I'm not saying go to the office bad, but yeah, no, I was, 00:37:59.543 --> 00:38:03.193 I very much have that experience too of like after work, the amount that 00:38:03.193 --> 00:38:05.763 I've put in for variety of reasons. 00:38:06.118 --> 00:38:09.208 That as soon as I log off, even though I don't have then the commute home, 00:38:09.268 --> 00:38:13.648 instead of commuting in traffic, I'm laying down because my brain is exhausted. 00:38:13.648 --> 00:38:15.778 And like I've, there's been plenty of times where I've said I'm gonna have 00:38:15.778 --> 00:38:17.518 to have a lay down after work and Yeah. 00:38:17.518 --> 00:38:21.208 And I've lost those three or four hours that, that I'm not actually doing. 00:38:21.443 --> 00:38:22.313 I'm not doing the self care. 00:38:22.313 --> 00:38:23.113 I'm not seeing my friends. 00:38:23.123 --> 00:38:25.943 I'm not, and it's just an exhausting burnout. 00:38:26.023 --> 00:38:26.693 That's what it is. 00:38:26.693 --> 00:38:28.423 And people are burnt out. 00:38:28.583 --> 00:38:32.313 And it's that time that we are putting into work in a different way. 00:38:32.383 --> 00:38:35.443 I think the expectations and pressures, whether, you know, 00:38:35.453 --> 00:38:38.103 yeah, whether you have the commute or not is still very much there. 00:38:38.283 --> 00:38:42.143 And there are some companies that are like progressive in quotes that have 00:38:42.523 --> 00:38:44.083 incorporated this into their policies. 00:38:44.083 --> 00:38:46.823 And in some cases, it's actually been done meaningfully. 00:38:46.823 --> 00:38:51.423 So it's actually done where they've required people to have. 00:38:52.078 --> 00:38:59.498 A voluntary capacity somewhere, um, local community or, you know, some global NGO 00:38:59.498 --> 00:39:02.618 or whatever, but to have a thing where they're volunteering and that's built into 00:39:02.618 --> 00:39:06.448 company time and they have to do it and they have to prove that they've done it. 00:39:06.708 --> 00:39:08.068 And that's kind of an interesting thing. 00:39:08.318 --> 00:39:11.588 And then there's others that have created mandatory personal project 00:39:11.588 --> 00:39:14.428 time and you know, there's, there's all kinds of things like that. 00:39:15.053 --> 00:39:18.343 And I would stress that while these things do, can have benefits to workers, 00:39:18.823 --> 00:39:23.923 um, and people, they're not workers, they're people, but on the other 00:39:23.923 --> 00:39:27.073 hand, it is, these are, measures are also designed to prevent the crisis. 00:39:27.163 --> 00:39:28.433 That's part of what it is. 00:39:28.553 --> 00:39:31.093 And some companies have brought in So you're saying It's a business plan. 00:39:31.093 --> 00:39:34.643 Like, yes You prefer people to have, who votes for people having mental breakdowns 00:39:34.643 --> 00:39:37.703 and who votes for people Well Stopping short, keeping it together, looking 00:39:37.703 --> 00:39:41.143 after their kids What I vote for is revealing the dysfunction in the system. 00:39:41.823 --> 00:39:45.553 Having said that, if peop and when I So, when we talk about having 00:39:45.553 --> 00:39:47.673 a mental breakdown on this show, what you really want to talk 00:39:47.683 --> 00:39:50.908 about is a crisis in It's both. 00:39:50.968 --> 00:39:55.388 I mean, I think I can't, can't separate the crisis in the system from 00:39:55.388 --> 00:39:57.118 the crisis individuals are facing. 00:39:58.058 --> 00:40:02.068 The system is a general term for not just the economic system, but the set 00:40:02.068 --> 00:40:06.158 of norms and the set of social relations and the set of cultural ideas and all 00:40:06.158 --> 00:40:08.148 of that stuff, all one big package. 00:40:08.648 --> 00:40:11.958 And it's not serving people very well at the moment, or maybe people 00:40:11.958 --> 00:40:14.018 have always been having mentee bees. 00:40:14.028 --> 00:40:14.958 Of course they have. 00:40:17.088 --> 00:40:21.048 What I'm hopeful about is that people are more open about it now, and I think 00:40:21.048 --> 00:40:26.198 there's a tipping point where I think people can feel safer doing it, because 00:40:26.228 --> 00:40:30.258 I think the anxiety that lay under it for me every time I had one of these 00:40:30.698 --> 00:40:34.768 episodes and had to just withdraw from society, I can think of one time when it 00:40:34.768 --> 00:40:39.388 was bad, and then the other two where it was like, oh no, I'm good, I just kind of 00:40:39.388 --> 00:40:43.108 need a week of nothing, and I'm not good. 00:40:43.148 --> 00:40:45.998 I feel terrible and I'm going to lose it and I'm starting to feel 00:40:45.998 --> 00:40:49.048 delusional and yeah, I'm going to withdraw from everything for 00:40:49.048 --> 00:40:50.318 a week and then I'll be okay. 00:40:51.668 --> 00:40:56.828 But there was a fear every time I did that, that I wouldn't re enter, 00:40:56.988 --> 00:40:58.448 that I wouldn't be accepted again. 00:40:58.468 --> 00:41:03.928 And that by, and I think, imagine for people who were like, not like just 00:41:03.978 --> 00:41:07.478 some kind of joker in his twenties who no one really had any high expectations 00:41:07.488 --> 00:41:09.328 of, but imagine being a high performer. 00:41:10.223 --> 00:41:12.203 And you are holding it together for a lot of people. 00:41:12.683 --> 00:41:16.143 Imagine this feeling of shame and humiliation that you experience. 00:41:17.128 --> 00:41:19.958 Thank you then do the right thing, which I firmly believe it is the right thing, to 00:41:19.958 --> 00:41:21.958 put your hand up and going, Hi everyone. 00:41:22.398 --> 00:41:27.628 I'd just like to say I'm on the edge of sanity and I've actually tipped. 00:41:27.668 --> 00:41:28.288 Yeah, I'm not coping. 00:41:28.908 --> 00:41:29.598 I need some help. 00:41:29.998 --> 00:41:31.078 And I'm, and I'm out. 00:41:31.118 --> 00:41:31.498 I do think. 00:41:31.508 --> 00:41:33.238 And you drop the mic and you go. 00:41:33.858 --> 00:41:34.938 Systems not working for me. 00:41:34.988 --> 00:41:36.088 At the moment, I'm out. 00:41:36.138 --> 00:41:37.538 I do think we are getting better. 00:41:37.598 --> 00:41:39.628 It's like coming out with your sexuality or whatever. 00:41:39.678 --> 00:41:43.068 Yeah, we're much better at talking about... 00:41:43.098 --> 00:41:45.568 This is the thing about moving on from the boom is the fact that we have a podcast 00:41:45.568 --> 00:41:49.228 where we've all got a mental illness. 00:41:50.078 --> 00:41:50.498 Right? 00:41:50.868 --> 00:41:55.308 We don't talk about mental illness that much on the show because we talk about 00:41:55.358 --> 00:42:00.508 it's not like bleeding the idea for this show and the one that I tried to do I 00:42:00.508 --> 00:42:03.958 think it's I tried to do a show before this show with another bipolar guy and 00:42:03.958 --> 00:42:07.668 what I'm interested in is not meant talking about mental illness which is 00:42:07.668 --> 00:42:11.158 what a lot of like awareness days and all that stuff was all about let's talk 00:42:11.168 --> 00:42:14.818 about mental being in it yeah what I'm interested in is what the three crazy 00:42:14.818 --> 00:42:16.963 people want to talk about Oh yeah. 00:42:16.963 --> 00:42:17.053 No. 00:42:17.053 --> 00:42:19.963 'cause when I was in the psych ward, people don't talk about 00:42:19.963 --> 00:42:21.043 mental illness that much. 00:42:21.043 --> 00:42:22.423 They talk about a lot. 00:42:22.423 --> 00:42:23.743 They, they talk about geopolitics. 00:42:24.043 --> 00:42:24.463 Reality. 00:42:24.643 --> 00:42:25.133 Reality. 00:42:25.138 --> 00:42:27.103 What exactly, you know, changing pings up to. 00:42:27.103 --> 00:42:27.403 Yeah. 00:42:27.408 --> 00:42:27.573 That's it. 00:42:27.573 --> 00:42:29.383 And that's what crazy people are obsessed with. 00:42:29.388 --> 00:42:29.953 A hundred percent. 00:42:29.953 --> 00:42:32.653 So this show is about getting, but the fact that we have this show 00:42:32.658 --> 00:42:35.903 and that people listen, I think that's the cultural shift, is 00:42:35.903 --> 00:42:39.473 that we've changed their cultural environment and it's changing rapidly. 00:42:39.473 --> 00:42:39.563 Mm-hmm. 00:42:39.573 --> 00:42:39.853 Mm-hmm. 00:42:39.953 --> 00:42:44.883 so that if someone goes down with a mental breakdown, People, I think, 00:42:44.883 --> 00:42:48.863 will be a lot more accepting than they would have been back in the 00:42:48.923 --> 00:42:50.933 corporate days of the 50s and 60s. 00:42:50.933 --> 00:42:53.018 I really hope that's true, and I think it is. 00:42:53.018 --> 00:42:53.523 I think it is! 00:42:53.523 --> 00:42:56.613 Like even the last 20 years, like I know, like when I said I've only had 00:42:56.613 --> 00:42:59.143 the one breakdown, it's not necessarily that I've only had one breakdown. 00:42:59.143 --> 00:42:59.763 It's the one serious one. 00:42:59.773 --> 00:43:01.423 It's the one serious one where I got help. 00:43:01.993 --> 00:43:04.593 There were definitely times when I was younger where I wasn't coping, 00:43:04.593 --> 00:43:08.073 and like you just withdrew, and it's like, okay, I'll have a week or so off. 00:43:08.698 --> 00:43:11.948 Try and figure it out and muddle it through, you know, and yeah, being really 00:43:12.028 --> 00:43:17.178 high functioning, you know, for a better term, um, but yeah, like it's because 00:43:17.178 --> 00:43:20.918 it was so much shame and embarrassment and stigma that I've let everybody down 00:43:20.918 --> 00:43:23.698 because I normally can do all these things, but also that everyone will think 00:43:23.698 --> 00:43:26.238 I'm a fuck up and they won't want to hang out with me, exactly, and it's just, okay, 00:43:26.318 --> 00:43:29.788 like, yeah, so it's just like, I'll figure it out on my own for a bit and like, and 00:43:29.788 --> 00:43:33.188 it's just putting like a little band aid on a little You know, on a cut that's just 00:43:33.208 --> 00:43:37.668 getting, turning into a bigger, festering wound and like, yeah, you just, instead 00:43:37.668 --> 00:43:40.458 of like, yeah, letting it turn into that, you know, and then it being, you know, 00:43:40.468 --> 00:43:44.508 it's like sort of just fixing it as it goes and taking those times, putting 00:43:44.508 --> 00:43:48.128 those things in place as we go so that hopefully, even if we do have to reset 00:43:48.368 --> 00:43:51.468 occasionally, it's not as big a reset. 00:43:51.498 --> 00:43:52.678 I refer to them almost... 00:43:53.018 --> 00:43:54.978 Mini breakdowns Yeah, mini breakdowns, yeah. 00:43:54.978 --> 00:43:57.218 I do refer to these guys almost every episode, but Alain de Botton 00:43:57.218 --> 00:44:02.108 in School of Life, write about that it's a good idea to have... 00:44:03.003 --> 00:44:04.373 A full mental breakdown. 00:44:04.403 --> 00:44:05.903 Yeah, I agree with you. 00:44:06.023 --> 00:44:09.033 And he wrote, they write beautifully about it actually, that like, 00:44:09.033 --> 00:44:12.333 this is the time when you are just gonna completely lose your shit. 00:44:12.903 --> 00:44:15.343 And it's like, and on the other side, and it's what people don't 00:44:15.363 --> 00:44:18.133 realize when they're going into it, that on the other side, they'll 00:44:18.133 --> 00:44:19.483 come out better and stronger. 00:44:19.593 --> 00:44:22.343 But that's a little, it doesn't happen to everyone. 00:44:22.373 --> 00:44:24.623 You can have a mental breakdown and kill yourself, or you can 00:44:24.633 --> 00:44:27.103 have a mental breakdown and never really quite recover, right? 00:44:27.163 --> 00:44:27.823 Yes, that does happen. 00:44:27.843 --> 00:44:31.933 But, what I've seen mostly, in my own experience as well, I had a 00:44:31.943 --> 00:44:33.873 mini one in Vietnam a month ago. 00:44:33.873 --> 00:44:34.723 Yeah, yeah, you did. 00:44:34.861 --> 00:44:36.701 is, they're clarifying. 00:44:36.981 --> 00:44:40.100 They, they, move you towards some kind of strength that you 00:44:40.100 --> 00:44:41.370 didn't quite know that you had. 00:44:41.370 --> 00:44:43.330 And it forces you to drop things you can't hold. 00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:46.190 The government plays an important role because you need, I need the 00:44:46.190 --> 00:44:52.330 support of a psych ward, uh, medication subsidised, ideally a psychiatrist 00:44:52.330 --> 00:44:55.440 and a psychologist, and all that I need the government to help pay for. 00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:58.700 So in a poorer place, which is most of the world, you're not 00:44:58.700 --> 00:44:59.480 going to have most of that. 00:45:00.055 --> 00:45:04.185 So, I'm incredibly privileged, and we are in Australia, it's a good place to have a 00:45:04.185 --> 00:45:05.825 mental breakdown, I'd highly recommend it. 00:45:05.947 --> 00:45:08.769 but look, let's wrap it up, any closing thoughts? 00:45:09.169 --> 00:45:13.829 Uh, well, yeah, look, I'm not, I'm not saying you're wrong earlier about, 00:45:13.928 --> 00:45:17.688 you know, I mean I think sometimes Ali and I do, do get into the white 00:45:17.688 --> 00:45:19.538 collar whinge, it is true, it is true. 00:45:20.029 --> 00:45:21.979 but I think I want to be very clear about... 00:45:22.176 --> 00:45:24.926 You know, the fact that, for example, you're right, for a carpenter, for a 00:45:24.926 --> 00:45:28.046 bricklayer, for a hospoworker, which I was for many years, I want to remind 00:45:28.046 --> 00:45:32.296 everybody, I was black collar, that's what I call it, for 20 years, and, you 00:45:32.296 --> 00:45:39.516 know, call centres, labour hire, um, agency work, you know, dishes, coffee, 00:45:39.836 --> 00:45:45.906 food, floor, bar, people, people, people, solve, solve, solve, labour, labour, 00:45:45.946 --> 00:45:50.726 like, manual labour the time, but also Quite a lot of mental and emotional burden 00:45:50.726 --> 00:45:52.506 in those jobs, I eventually realised. 00:45:53.416 --> 00:45:58.296 Um, and that, you know, so I've got complicated feelings about work. 00:45:58.296 --> 00:46:01.416 I believe in the dignity of work, the usefulness of work for people. 00:46:01.446 --> 00:46:04.466 I also have seen how it will strip people of dignity and 00:46:04.466 --> 00:46:05.816 that it can lack usefulness. 00:46:05.996 --> 00:46:08.686 And, you know, I've seen the good and the bad side of it. 00:46:09.726 --> 00:46:12.306 And so I don't want to shit on every last employer out there 00:46:12.306 --> 00:46:14.006 and every last workin Joe. 00:46:14.426 --> 00:46:15.106 Absolutely not. 00:46:15.496 --> 00:46:18.001 And also, you're right, carpenters and bricklayers can't. 00:46:19.471 --> 00:46:22.171 Obscure their productivity or lack of it, right? 00:46:22.421 --> 00:46:26.501 So that's a privilege that a working person like that doesn't have. 00:46:26.571 --> 00:46:29.171 And yes, there are white collar workers that can get away with stuff, 00:46:29.411 --> 00:46:34.940 but I would just like to declare there's very few good jobs, if any. 00:46:34.980 --> 00:46:35.540 I just want to say that. 00:46:35.540 --> 00:46:38.210 I came to the same conclusion talking to people now in the... 00:46:38.420 --> 00:46:41.530 Let's not create a false divide between privileged white collar and... 00:46:44.525 --> 00:46:49.315 Yeah, yeah, someone who has quite a well paid government job said there's a reason 00:46:49.315 --> 00:46:51.265 why Monday feels worse than Friday. 00:46:51.285 --> 00:46:55.185 Yeah You know, this is not a new concept, but it was a reminder. 00:46:55.245 --> 00:46:56.965 They wouldn't pay you if they needed, if they didn't need to. 00:46:56.965 --> 00:46:57.625 Yeah, exactly. 00:46:57.625 --> 00:47:01.415 Because I'm casting around, do I change careers or whatever and, and 00:47:02.355 --> 00:47:05.695 It's great and clarifying to realize all jobs suck just in different ways. 00:47:05.735 --> 00:47:09.055 Yeah, yeah, and I know what in what ways my film job sucks, and 00:47:09.055 --> 00:47:10.315 I know in what ways it's great. 00:47:12.105 --> 00:47:15.125 The other stuff I'm looking at, you dig into it, and it becomes 00:47:15.125 --> 00:47:17.325 pretty obvious what's gonna suck and what's gonna be good. 00:47:17.335 --> 00:47:21.085 So yeah, and realism, but to drop the idea that they tell you when you're 00:47:21.165 --> 00:47:23.775 18, you leave high school, that there's some great job out there. 00:47:23.785 --> 00:47:24.165 Oh, yeah. 00:47:24.165 --> 00:47:26.245 Yeah, it's like you're probably not gonna work at the UN. 00:47:26.810 --> 00:47:32.920 No, I mean, you might have like a really difficult colleague or 00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:34.770 difficult interpersonal relationships. 00:47:34.770 --> 00:47:36.200 You've got to navigate every job. 00:47:36.260 --> 00:47:39.590 Like even if you have your dream job, there is still going to be 00:47:39.590 --> 00:47:40.840 something that's not great about it. 00:47:40.850 --> 00:47:43.420 There's going to be a, some aspect of it that's going to bring you 00:47:43.420 --> 00:47:46.737 stress and, or, you know, and I do not dream of labor, darling. 00:47:47.657 --> 00:47:48.007 Yes. 00:47:48.037 --> 00:47:48.357 Yeah. 00:47:48.357 --> 00:47:51.907 So yeah, it's, I think, I just don't think, yeah, like we can. 00:47:52.642 --> 00:47:57.012 Exclude the system or the like, as in, you know, where Sam and I talk, you 00:47:57.012 --> 00:47:58.332 know, we do have the white collar whinge. 00:47:58.622 --> 00:48:01.202 I just don't think we can't, we can exclude the impact that that 00:48:01.202 --> 00:48:05.782 does have on the, your mental health and your mental wellbeing. 00:48:05.792 --> 00:48:08.012 And so they are inextricably. 00:48:08.247 --> 00:48:11.217 You know, I'm just representing the listener who might be like rolling 00:48:11.217 --> 00:48:12.147 their eyes a little bit about users. 00:48:12.837 --> 00:48:13.647 That's entirely fair. 00:48:13.827 --> 00:48:17.427 And there'll be some, there's Sam and Ali fans and there's Joe fans, maybe. 00:48:17.487 --> 00:48:19.037 Yeah, I think so. 00:48:19.107 --> 00:48:19.457 Yeah, definitely. 00:48:19.457 --> 00:48:24.227 So, I don't know, it's my honest opinion that it's fine to analyse the system. 00:48:24.427 --> 00:48:24.737 Yeah. 00:48:24.887 --> 00:48:28.315 But watch out, because you're probably going to head into, You know, Neil 00:48:28.315 --> 00:48:33.015 from Young Ones or whatever his name is, Vivian, you know, territory. 00:48:33.035 --> 00:48:33.425 Yeah. 00:48:33.425 --> 00:48:34.525 So watch out for that. 00:48:34.545 --> 00:48:35.115 Both apply. 00:48:35.125 --> 00:48:38.245 If you're not specific about what you're talking about and when you get specific 00:48:38.245 --> 00:48:43.215 and it doesn't sound that bad to me, then I'm going to call you out on it. 00:48:43.225 --> 00:48:44.495 No, no, I get that. 00:48:44.535 --> 00:48:49.105 But it's, it's one of the ways that the whole thing is kept in place is that, for 00:48:49.105 --> 00:48:53.865 example, the white collar worker can, can shit on tradies and they can, they can, 00:48:53.875 --> 00:49:00.130 it's socially acceptable to, You know, to whinge about how tradies are a bunch 00:49:00.130 --> 00:49:03.980 of jerks who make too much money, that's socially acceptable and it's, and for 00:49:03.980 --> 00:49:07.600 the tradies, it's socially acceptable for them to say that anyone who doesn't stack 00:49:07.610 --> 00:49:09.430 a brick is a completely useless wanker. 00:49:09.720 --> 00:49:13.260 And like, that's one of the things that keeps the workers apart. 00:49:13.770 --> 00:49:19.640 And it's a, and it's a similar dynamic, almost in, dare I say it, racialized, 00:49:20.050 --> 00:49:24.655 almost semi racialized dynamic where, you know, there's, The blue collar, white 00:49:24.655 --> 00:49:29.001 collar, and as I brought in the black collar, the hospitality trades, uh, if 00:49:29.001 --> 00:49:33.911 we're not careful, they're turning into caste ideas and, you know, turning into 00:49:33.911 --> 00:49:37.901 kind of reified concepts of, like, the relative worth of this person versus 00:49:37.901 --> 00:49:42.291 that person, which is more of the kind of stuff that causes people to have mental 00:49:42.291 --> 00:49:45.932 breakdowns, because there I was thinking I was a progressive person who saw through 00:49:45.932 --> 00:49:50.082 the illusions of the system, man, but the truth is, like, I was just a subject. 00:49:50.907 --> 00:49:53.397 To those, as anybody, and still am. 00:49:53.567 --> 00:49:58.167 And, like, that's, that's, that's part of what prevents people 00:49:58.407 --> 00:50:00.977 from doing the proper breakdown. 00:50:01.747 --> 00:50:06.927 Because they have swallowed the notion whole, as I had, that we were individuals. 00:50:06.977 --> 00:50:08.327 There was no such thing as society. 00:50:08.587 --> 00:50:11.777 And whether you believed that out loud or not, it's actually 00:50:11.947 --> 00:50:13.437 behind a lot of your actions. 00:50:14.147 --> 00:50:17.367 And that if I allow myself to be vulnerable in this way, that I 00:50:17.367 --> 00:50:19.187 won't be accepted back into society. 00:50:19.297 --> 00:50:19.997 Like, I think. 00:50:20.457 --> 00:50:21.547 That's how a lot of people feel. 00:50:21.617 --> 00:50:23.267 And so I think you've offered the most useful thought here, 00:50:23.267 --> 00:50:24.187 Joe, is what I'm saying. 00:50:24.607 --> 00:50:28.637 If something, if this happens to someone around you, like, don't 00:50:28.647 --> 00:50:31.507 do the thing where you, you want to stay away in case you catch it. 00:50:31.862 --> 00:50:34.392 No, no, move towards it, like be around that. 00:50:34.892 --> 00:50:35.252 Yeah. 00:50:35.302 --> 00:50:36.402 Send them off to the motel. 00:50:36.432 --> 00:50:37.252 All right, let's finish up. 00:50:37.292 --> 00:50:40.612 I think what was interesting today is that we went to talk about mentibes 00:50:40.612 --> 00:50:41.922 and ended up talking about work. 00:50:42.212 --> 00:50:47.492 Oh, we do it all the time, I think that says something about us. 00:50:47.572 --> 00:50:48.012 It does. 00:50:48.012 --> 00:50:48.252 Yeah. 00:50:48.252 --> 00:50:53.062 Like I said, the pressures for most people are those daily pressures. 00:50:53.202 --> 00:50:56.952 The pressures are for me, are stuff in, is things in the news. 00:50:57.002 --> 00:50:57.502 Sure. 00:50:57.562 --> 00:51:00.912 And that's just, it's clarifying for me to realize that. 00:51:02.007 --> 00:51:03.677 I'm unusual in that way. 00:51:03.737 --> 00:51:05.687 I get it, yeah, it is, it is. 00:51:06.057 --> 00:51:09.584 But, But what it means is I have to be a little bit more open. 00:51:10.248 --> 00:51:13.408 if it's not World War 3, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. 00:51:13.478 --> 00:51:17.398 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the mental trick that I've always done. 00:51:17.398 --> 00:51:18.158 It's like, well, let's see. 00:51:18.458 --> 00:51:20.598 It's bad, but it's not World War 3. 00:51:20.648 --> 00:51:25.778 Anything short of death itself and World War 3 and asteroids or whatever, anything 00:51:25.778 --> 00:51:26.998 short of that just doesn't matter. 00:51:27.238 --> 00:51:27.978 It's kind of bearable. 00:51:28.028 --> 00:51:28.468 It is. 00:51:28.508 --> 00:51:29.158 I mean, it's great. 00:51:29.578 --> 00:51:30.648 It's a good palliative. 00:51:31.058 --> 00:51:35.818 Yeah, but that's my, yeah, it's not something that's how I, that's my code. 00:51:35.878 --> 00:51:36.228 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:36.228 --> 00:51:36.596 That's your code. 00:51:36.596 --> 00:51:37.098 Use the kids word. 00:51:37.458 --> 00:51:37.908 That's my code. 00:51:37.908 --> 00:51:41.148 Yeah, because you've, you've, you've sized it to a level that is tolerable. 00:51:41.738 --> 00:51:41.938 Yeah. 00:51:42.058 --> 00:51:44.858 And look, and that is, and I do agree because the thing that got me out of 00:51:44.858 --> 00:51:48.888 the chronic anxiety was, and I know this will sound so grim to so many people, 00:51:50.068 --> 00:51:53.178 like, the thing that prevented a number of nervous breakdowns on my part, 00:51:53.408 --> 00:51:56.478 was, or made them smaller, was, sorry. 00:51:56.963 --> 00:51:58.133 We're all going to be dead one day. 00:51:58.393 --> 00:51:58.943 It doesn't matter. 00:51:58.953 --> 00:51:59.293 Absolutely. 00:51:59.993 --> 00:52:01.263 You love the being dead thing. 00:52:01.273 --> 00:52:01.393 Yeah. 00:52:01.403 --> 00:52:02.203 Oh, I don't love it. 00:52:02.363 --> 00:52:05.133 Ali's always talking about just having a little sleep and never waking up. 00:52:05.133 --> 00:52:05.683 Oh, it'd be great. 00:52:07.113 --> 00:52:09.553 Me, I'm going to fight it to my last fucking breath. 00:52:09.553 --> 00:52:13.043 No, no, but I also want to live on in my apartment and not in my work. 00:52:13.093 --> 00:52:13.683 A hundred percent. 00:52:13.683 --> 00:52:13.813 Yeah. 00:52:13.983 --> 00:52:15.593 No, I'm on both sides of that one. 00:52:16.623 --> 00:52:18.773 You should have made some pieces of it that I have not made. 00:52:19.093 --> 00:52:19.753 Oh, I don't know, Joe. 00:52:19.753 --> 00:52:21.223 I think, I don't know. 00:52:21.223 --> 00:52:23.803 I feel like you've had some breakthroughs that I haven't. 00:52:24.413 --> 00:52:27.323 But, but I will also say on the School of Life tip, there was a great School 00:52:27.323 --> 00:52:31.963 of Life video a few years ago where, you know, de Botton, uh, urges us in his. 00:52:32.708 --> 00:52:37.928 Dset tones to, you know, consider the vastness of the universe. 00:52:38.018 --> 00:52:42.368 And there's like a million stars for every grain of sand on this beach. 00:52:42.368 --> 00:52:45.998 And like, yeah, the insignificance of that is an enormous comfort. 00:52:46.028 --> 00:52:47.078 And like, yes. 00:52:47.108 --> 00:52:51.348 And the, the ego inflating the, the size of the ego, which can 00:52:51.348 --> 00:52:52.368 only be done in one's own mind. 00:52:52.608 --> 00:52:53.778 It can't be done in reality. 00:52:54.048 --> 00:52:56.958 But then that can determine the way we experience reality and it can 00:52:56.958 --> 00:52:58.578 cause us to have mental breakdowns. 00:52:58.638 --> 00:53:00.708 It literally, everyone in the world is counting on me. 00:53:00.993 --> 00:53:04.223 And if I don't do this ritual, um, World War III will happen, you know, 00:53:04.223 --> 00:53:07.933 all that, the genuine delusional stuff, and the stuff that sounds more grounded, 00:53:08.273 --> 00:53:12.663 like I can't take a day off, that is also mental illness and delusion, 00:53:12.663 --> 00:53:14.073 and we need to call that out as well. 00:53:14.373 --> 00:53:18.343 And Alain de Botton would very much say, you know, contrary to what you 00:53:18.353 --> 00:53:21.973 might believe, if you took a day off, nobody would really notice, 00:53:22.413 --> 00:53:23.903 but we have an image of ourselves. 00:53:24.253 --> 00:53:27.813 Where we are so much more important than that, but consider the 00:53:27.813 --> 00:53:28.993 grains of sand and the stars. 00:53:29.163 --> 00:53:31.233 And then in the comments section of the video... 00:53:31.803 --> 00:53:35.223 It was 50 50 people going, Oh, thanks bro. 00:53:35.263 --> 00:53:36.213 I really needed that. 00:53:36.223 --> 00:53:36.853 So true. 00:53:37.023 --> 00:53:38.633 And the other half, how dare you? 00:53:39.193 --> 00:53:40.103 This makes me sick. 00:53:40.423 --> 00:53:42.483 I can't even think about my insignificance. 00:53:42.483 --> 00:53:42.823 I hate you. 00:53:42.823 --> 00:53:43.968 That stuff works. 00:53:43.968 --> 00:53:47.443 It works while you're watching it and then it wears off. 00:53:48.253 --> 00:53:52.123 There's no replacement for psychoanalysis and also meditation. 00:53:52.133 --> 00:53:52.433 Yeah. 00:53:52.733 --> 00:53:57.818 But the, the school of life stuff really works on that intellectual level of like. 00:53:58.318 --> 00:53:58.768 It makes sense. 00:53:58.778 --> 00:54:00.118 Go and have a mental breakdown. 00:54:00.278 --> 00:54:02.598 Think about your own insignificance. 00:54:02.638 --> 00:54:05.358 The worst thing that possibly happens, well, you'll just be dead, which is a 00:54:05.358 --> 00:54:07.398 perfectly tolerable situation, right? 00:54:07.488 --> 00:54:07.578 Yeah. 00:54:07.868 --> 00:54:08.488 It works. 00:54:09.198 --> 00:54:09.968 But I need more. 00:54:10.008 --> 00:54:14.158 I needed, what I always needed, was to go on a spiritual journey. 00:54:14.628 --> 00:54:15.953 And now I've gone on that. 00:54:16.123 --> 00:54:18.323 And the good part is it's no one else's problem. 00:54:18.343 --> 00:54:19.703 It's my own spiritual journey. 00:54:20.183 --> 00:54:24.603 I don't have to preach about it, but I always needed that. 00:54:24.703 --> 00:54:27.713 And until I got that, I was going to be destroying myself. 00:54:28.163 --> 00:54:32.733 Once I connected with some spirituality and a higher power, I'm 00:54:32.963 --> 00:54:36.553 free again, you know, so everyone's got to find what they want to be. 00:54:37.103 --> 00:54:42.623 Need, you know, and for me, actually, it was an active spiritual life and 00:54:42.833 --> 00:54:47.283 clever videos from the School of Life and great books, which I love, will 00:54:47.283 --> 00:54:52.413 never actually heal me in the same way that my spiritual practice does. 00:54:52.703 --> 00:54:55.313 They're delicious little biscuits, but they're not the thing. 00:54:55.363 --> 00:54:55.693 Yeah. 00:54:55.693 --> 00:54:57.603 And the other thing about a mental breakdown is it might 00:54:57.603 --> 00:54:58.753 be a spiritual experience. 00:54:59.158 --> 00:54:59.318 Yes. 00:54:59.318 --> 00:54:59.998 Being misdiagnosed. 00:54:59.998 --> 00:55:00.968 Oh, a hundred percent. 00:55:01.218 --> 00:55:01.468 Yeah. 00:55:01.518 --> 00:55:02.368 Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:55:02.368 --> 00:55:02.608 Yeah. 00:55:02.668 --> 00:55:02.938 No. 00:55:03.388 --> 00:55:06.738 Our psych system does a job, but it's not well set up to 00:55:07.108 --> 00:55:08.898 accommodate spiritual experiences. 00:55:08.998 --> 00:55:09.628 No, no. 00:55:09.628 --> 00:55:12.058 I was having a spiritual experience back then at 19. 00:55:12.068 --> 00:55:13.328 Very, you know, very similar to you. 00:55:13.328 --> 00:55:13.618 Yeah. 00:55:13.648 --> 00:55:17.468 No, there was all kinds of metaphysical cosmic dimensions to it. 00:55:17.548 --> 00:55:18.298 Absolutely. 00:55:18.378 --> 00:55:21.178 And, and, you know, my mom was kind of wrong when she said. 00:55:21.903 --> 00:55:26.623 This is a spiritual crisis, but she was actually right in another way, um, I just 00:55:26.623 --> 00:55:28.493 didn't resolve it in the way she expected. 00:55:28.773 --> 00:55:31.773 For me, it was not the call to theism, it was the opposite. 00:55:31.903 --> 00:55:34.033 It was like, oh no, no, no, the universe... 00:55:34.688 --> 00:55:36.598 It does not have a grander, larger meaning. 00:55:36.708 --> 00:55:40.378 It took me a long time to accept it, but I was like, or if it does, it's not 00:55:40.518 --> 00:55:44.668 some comforting story you think it is, like, maybe it has a larger meaning, 00:55:44.668 --> 00:55:46.368 but it may not make sense to humans. 00:55:46.438 --> 00:55:50.058 Gonna have to make it for yourself, you know, whereas I think she was rather 00:55:50.058 --> 00:55:54.398 hoping that that nervous breakdown would, would be my come to Jesus, you know. 00:55:54.558 --> 00:55:55.258 To Hare Krishna. 00:55:55.268 --> 00:55:55.648 Yeah. 00:55:55.728 --> 00:55:56.798 Back to the Hare Krishnas. 00:55:56.828 --> 00:55:57.188 Yeah. 00:55:57.238 --> 00:56:01.438 But you know, it wasn't to be, but in your case, Joe, religion was lying 00:56:01.438 --> 00:56:02.778 in wait for you that whole time. 00:56:02.778 --> 00:56:03.338 Oh, I've never. 00:56:03.348 --> 00:56:03.588 Yeah. 00:56:03.698 --> 00:56:04.078 Wow. 00:56:04.283 --> 00:56:05.653 I haven't joined a religion yet. 00:56:06.063 --> 00:56:06.963 Work in progress. 00:56:07.033 --> 00:56:08.413 I think maybe that's your next career. 00:56:08.423 --> 00:56:09.353 You have to start one. 00:56:09.623 --> 00:56:10.073 There you go. 00:56:10.423 --> 00:56:10.853 Yeah. 00:56:10.873 --> 00:56:12.733 Someone else said I was going to be a cult leader one day. 00:56:13.173 --> 00:56:14.253 Yeah, definitely. 00:56:14.263 --> 00:56:15.013 It's a good career move these days. 00:56:15.013 --> 00:56:16.343 Yeah, for sure. 00:56:16.343 --> 00:56:18.393 What about me as cult leader about it? 00:56:18.723 --> 00:56:19.153 I don't know. 00:56:19.153 --> 00:56:19.933 No, don't be a cult leader. 00:56:20.033 --> 00:56:22.613 Like do, do seminars and courses. 00:56:22.783 --> 00:56:23.973 Oh, like MLM or something. 00:56:24.073 --> 00:56:26.138 Yeah, that'd be cool. 00:56:26.138 --> 00:56:28.548 It does appeal to me the idea of having power over people. 00:56:28.838 --> 00:56:29.868 Yeah, it does. 00:56:29.908 --> 00:56:30.538 For sure. 00:56:30.648 --> 00:56:31.228 Listen to that. 00:56:31.238 --> 00:56:32.038 It's a healthy instinct. 00:56:32.408 --> 00:56:34.828 Actually, I have power over no one, not even my own children. 00:56:35.268 --> 00:56:36.288 They just laugh at me. 00:56:36.458 --> 00:56:37.118 That's true. 00:56:37.188 --> 00:56:37.808 That's true. 00:56:37.818 --> 00:56:39.618 Which is the only safe way for me to be. 00:56:41.168 --> 00:56:41.618 All right, let's go. 00:56:41.808 --> 00:56:42.728 Love your work, Joe. 00:56:43.208 --> 00:56:44.588 Another piece of wisdom from you there.