WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.495 --> 00:00:04.835 CJ: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:04.885 --> 00:00:05.825 My name is CJ. 00:00:06.355 --> 00:00:10.085 Colin: And I'm Colin, and we are back again this week to talk about what 00:00:10.085 --> 00:00:11.685 we're working on, what we're learning. 00:00:12.155 --> 00:00:15.725 And there's a little bit of a kind of upheaval in the 00:00:15.735 --> 00:00:17.815 finance app space this week. 00:00:17.815 --> 00:00:20.092 So we're going to chat about that a little bit as well. 00:00:20.622 --> 00:00:24.842 CJ: Yeah, I've been, I have been a mint user for a super, super long time. 00:00:24.902 --> 00:00:30.487 But recently too, I've been frustrated that some of the things don't connect 00:00:30.497 --> 00:00:34.937 to it and I haven't been able to like manually manage those and so in my 00:00:34.937 --> 00:00:37.017 head I'm already sort of doing math and 00:00:37.237 --> 00:00:40.307 Colin: So yeah, what's the, the news is that Mint is getting shut 00:00:40.307 --> 00:00:43.937 down by Intuit January 1st, 2024. 00:00:44.477 --> 00:00:45.877 CJ: that's so wild. 00:00:46.177 --> 00:00:51.107 I feel like so many people use that for not, I mean, I don't know. 00:00:51.157 --> 00:00:53.797 The budgeting in it honestly isn't that good. 00:00:53.937 --> 00:00:54.367 Colin: it's not, 00:00:54.862 --> 00:01:01.032 CJ: But, like, the, just tracking kind of your overall financial health, like 00:01:01.032 --> 00:01:04.452 it gives you your credit score and it gives you an attempt at a net worth, 00:01:04.742 --> 00:01:12.352 like, estimate based on Zillow minus your loans or whatever for real estate, and 00:01:12.932 --> 00:01:16.632 I know it does like a pretty good job of tracking credit card balances sometimes, 00:01:16.632 --> 00:01:22.392 so, uh, yeah, I don't know, do you have, yeah, like, It sounds like you've 00:01:22.392 --> 00:01:23.752 been using this for a long time too. 00:01:24.307 --> 00:01:25.667 Colin: yeah, I've been a user. 00:01:25.747 --> 00:01:29.597 I mean, I think from the very early days, I pulled up some of the dates 00:01:29.597 --> 00:01:33.557 just cause I was like, okay, how long ago have I been using this for? 00:01:33.557 --> 00:01:39.467 And, um, I think I probably, have been using it since 2006. 00:01:39.507 --> 00:01:41.357 So it launched in 2006. 00:01:41.987 --> 00:01:45.027 And there's some fun things that I want to dig into here, but 00:01:45.087 --> 00:01:46.157 how long have you been using it? 00:01:46.167 --> 00:01:47.617 Do you use any other tools? 00:01:48.532 --> 00:01:50.212 CJ: It's the one I've been using the longest. 00:01:50.312 --> 00:01:52.952 I have also tried Personal Capital. 00:01:53.562 --> 00:01:58.422 And I have also tried for budgeting, we, right now we're using YNAB. 00:01:59.632 --> 00:02:01.282 But yeah, we've tried a bunch of stuff. 00:02:01.332 --> 00:02:03.962 Also just like Google, billions of Google spreadsheets. 00:02:03.972 --> 00:02:05.532 But, um, 00:02:05.697 --> 00:02:06.937 Colin: Always a spreadsheet, right? 00:02:07.047 --> 00:02:08.317 Yeah, I, I use Mint. 00:02:08.387 --> 00:02:11.687 I use Credit Karma and I think I actually had wondered because 00:02:11.717 --> 00:02:13.677 Intuit bought both of them, right? 00:02:13.677 --> 00:02:14.767 Credit Karma got bought. 00:02:15.017 --> 00:02:19.317 More recently, and I was wondering why they would buy two of these things. 00:02:19.787 --> 00:02:23.827 And they are pushing folks towards credit karma, which is not a budgeting app. 00:02:24.387 --> 00:02:26.947 But you know, it kind of like watches your credit score. 00:02:26.947 --> 00:02:30.577 It watches if you own any, if you own a house, if you own a car, if 00:02:30.577 --> 00:02:34.637 you have loans, like it kind of gives you a sense of your that high level 00:02:35.007 --> 00:02:36.717 picture of your financial health. 00:02:37.957 --> 00:02:41.847 But it'll be interesting to see if Intuit pushes some sort of like credit karma 00:02:41.877 --> 00:02:43.697 budgeting app or something in the future. 00:02:43.717 --> 00:02:47.057 But yeah, I think it's a little bit different too in that Mint made 00:02:47.057 --> 00:02:51.107 money by recommending credit cards to people which is very similar to like 00:02:51.107 --> 00:02:53.337 NerdWallet or, or some of those sites. 00:02:54.357 --> 00:02:58.227 CJ: Yeah, I feel like they, didn't they also like recently do something with taxes 00:02:58.227 --> 00:03:01.157 too, like you could, you could do your taxes through Mint or something, or is 00:03:01.157 --> 00:03:03.577 that just like an on ramp to TurboTax, or? 00:03:03.877 --> 00:03:07.117 Colin: I think it's yeah, they, like, you can have your single Intuit login 00:03:07.127 --> 00:03:11.077 would log you into TurboTax, log you into Mint, any of those products, and 00:03:11.077 --> 00:03:15.607 I think be interesting to see, because I think there's something about how the 00:03:15.607 --> 00:03:21.647 IRS is rolling out, uh, the ability to do taxes without TurboTax in certain states, 00:03:21.657 --> 00:03:26.327 states without income tax, so Nevada, Texas, things like that would be good, 00:03:26.867 --> 00:03:30.037 CJ: there's gonna be like, yeah, those new self file, like the IRS is gonna 00:03:30.037 --> 00:03:33.987 provide a free website where you can go and file your own taxes in the same way 00:03:33.987 --> 00:03:36.417 that you would through a paid service. 00:03:36.797 --> 00:03:37.737 Yeah, I... 00:03:39.252 --> 00:03:42.912 Was I mean, as soon as I read about this announcement, I was like, Oh, I 00:03:42.912 --> 00:03:45.842 wonder if that was related that now they're like the IRS is trying to offer. 00:03:46.002 --> 00:03:46.472 I don't know. 00:03:46.782 --> 00:03:50.032 It's so wild to me that the IRS doesn't already have that. 00:03:51.417 --> 00:03:54.787 Colin: yeah, well, and the argument there is that Intuit has 00:03:54.787 --> 00:03:56.337 been lobbying against the IRS. 00:03:56.547 --> 00:03:59.277 they're being choices for a very long time. 00:03:59.867 --> 00:04:03.807 So yeah, I'm, this is an interesting timing for me cause I, I'm 00:04:03.807 --> 00:04:05.627 more of a passive user of Mint. 00:04:05.697 --> 00:04:09.067 I actually just started using co pilot money, which I really like. 00:04:09.477 --> 00:04:13.577 It's very, it feels like the linear version of all these tools. 00:04:14.077 --> 00:04:19.897 Very like sexy looking, but also just like has your investments, has your like debt. 00:04:20.112 --> 00:04:24.062 And asset ratios and everything in it, you can see your stocks, you can see your 00:04:24.062 --> 00:04:26.132 portfolios, you can see your budgeting. 00:04:26.582 --> 00:04:30.432 And I've never really had an actual budgeting practice of going 00:04:30.432 --> 00:04:32.132 through and categorizing things. 00:04:32.132 --> 00:04:34.862 So I'm trying that out in copilot. 00:04:35.262 --> 00:04:37.322 But like you, I have personal capital. 00:04:37.332 --> 00:04:38.992 I never really log into it. 00:04:39.272 --> 00:04:42.762 I have lunch money, which I really wanted to support because it's built 00:04:42.772 --> 00:04:47.332 by a single solo developer and it's an awesome tool, but it really only does 00:04:47.332 --> 00:04:51.792 the budgeting piece and I kind of want that like bird's eye view of everything. 00:04:51.852 --> 00:04:52.272 So 00:04:52.632 --> 00:04:53.002 CJ: yeah. 00:04:53.312 --> 00:04:57.202 And you in the past have had like talked about building your own thing, right? 00:04:57.652 --> 00:04:57.792 Is 00:04:57.842 --> 00:05:01.142 Colin: yeah, and I think that's, that's where it gets into like the detail, 00:05:01.152 --> 00:05:03.332 like it's so hard to do that stuff. 00:05:03.352 --> 00:05:05.562 Like we saw maybe. 00:05:05.572 --> 00:05:05.852 co ran into this too. 00:05:05.852 --> 00:05:11.202 And some of the tools that they're like plaid and modern treasury, it's 00:05:11.202 --> 00:05:13.232 just like looking at transactions. 00:05:13.427 --> 00:05:16.637 especially in the world of like Venmo and bank transfers and all this stuff. 00:05:16.637 --> 00:05:20.887 It's like really hard to auto categorize and do it. 00:05:20.947 --> 00:05:22.637 You kind of have to do it by hand. 00:05:22.747 --> 00:05:24.597 And the really interesting story. 00:05:24.597 --> 00:05:26.007 I just want to throw out some things here. 00:05:26.007 --> 00:05:30.537 We can chat about them before we talk about what we're working on is that Yodlee 00:05:30.547 --> 00:05:38.127 was the tech that ran And they, there's a story that we can find the link to 00:05:38.157 --> 00:05:42.177 where Yodlee was just like a contract, you know, they had a contract with Mint. 00:05:42.567 --> 00:05:47.367 They made like 4 million or so on that contract before they sold to, into it. 00:05:47.767 --> 00:05:50.327 And then there was this owner of a domain mint. 00:05:50.547 --> 00:05:53.057 com that they sold to Mint for equity. 00:05:53.582 --> 00:05:57.952 And so the owner of the Mint domain made more money than Yodlee did 00:05:58.462 --> 00:06:02.822 on that acquisition, just because I think it was actually like a, a 00:06:02.822 --> 00:06:05.052 cap, like a VC that owns the mint. 00:06:05.222 --> 00:06:05.812 com domain. 00:06:06.262 --> 00:06:09.372 And so they took Series A stock in exchange for the domain. 00:06:10.022 --> 00:06:14.542 anD that turned into either a stock and into it or actual dollars. 00:06:14.542 --> 00:06:18.372 I'm not sure which, but and just looking at these numbers, you know, 00:06:18.372 --> 00:06:22.592 we talk a lot about Bootstrapping and kind of indie co founding and 00:06:22.592 --> 00:06:24.002 things like that on, on the show. 00:06:24.022 --> 00:06:29.272 But they had, I guess, quote unquote, only raised 30 million, but like at 00:06:29.272 --> 00:06:32.472 the time when they were acquired, there were only 35 employees. 00:06:32.482 --> 00:06:35.022 And I think when you look at startups raising that much 00:06:35.052 --> 00:06:40.032 money today, you see them having typically a lot more employees. 00:06:40.092 --> 00:06:43.292 They're raising way more money, which makes it really hard to get 00:06:43.292 --> 00:06:46.832 acquired in today's market, just because you don't have a lot of. 00:06:47.172 --> 00:06:49.372 Acquirers who can buy things. 00:06:49.372 --> 00:06:53.502 And it's like, once you get into even handing like a first time 00:06:53.502 --> 00:06:58.412 founder, 25 million, it's like, how do you know how to spend that money? 00:06:58.542 --> 00:06:59.212 It's crazy. 00:06:59.792 --> 00:07:05.752 CJ: Yeah, it also is interesting to think about, like, how Mint really didn't 00:07:05.762 --> 00:07:09.272 have a business model, if I can remember correctly, like, I feel like in the 00:07:09.272 --> 00:07:11.132 beginning, I was like, how is this free? 00:07:11.142 --> 00:07:15.082 And how, like, feeling like, oh, they've got to figure it out eventually. 00:07:15.082 --> 00:07:18.762 And then, After I want to say it was like after years of using it 00:07:18.772 --> 00:07:21.522 or something, then they started showing like all the credit card ads 00:07:22.042 --> 00:07:23.522 and trying to get you to buy stuff. 00:07:23.542 --> 00:07:26.912 Maybe, maybe I just didn't notice that when I first started using it. 00:07:26.912 --> 00:07:30.202 And maybe that was like part of their thing all along, but I was like, when 00:07:30.202 --> 00:07:31.592 is this going to not be free anymore? 00:07:31.592 --> 00:07:34.362 I just, and then the fact that they were able to raise money. 00:07:34.402 --> 00:07:36.642 I mean, yeah, I don't know. 00:07:36.662 --> 00:07:37.452 It's kind of surprising, 00:07:37.837 --> 00:07:38.197 Colin: Yeah. 00:07:38.687 --> 00:07:42.017 I mean, they had about 140 million valuation right before they 00:07:42.017 --> 00:07:43.837 were acquired for 170 million. 00:07:44.937 --> 00:07:48.697 So they, they went up in value with that acquisition and the CEO worked it 00:07:48.697 --> 00:07:52.747 into it for a little bit and then pieced out and it looks like he's doing some 00:07:52.757 --> 00:07:54.667 AI stuff these days, which is cool. 00:07:54.667 --> 00:07:56.727 So he's, I haven't seen his name. 00:07:57.107 --> 00:08:01.237 In years and so it's just interesting to kind of go down that rabbit hole of like 00:08:01.247 --> 00:08:03.897 end of an era for sure it's cool to see 00:08:04.432 --> 00:08:05.392 CJ: Yeah, interesting. 00:08:06.172 --> 00:08:10.062 Yeah, I guess I'm curious what the listeners are using to 00:08:10.062 --> 00:08:14.052 track personal finances, and if you have apps or whatever. 00:08:14.382 --> 00:08:19.242 I, I would love to try a bunch out if Mint is, since Mint is disappearing, so. 00:08:20.422 --> 00:08:21.252 Yeah, let us know. 00:08:22.237 --> 00:08:24.567 Colin: definitely and I think we'll have to do that money episode we 00:08:24.567 --> 00:08:28.937 keep teasing at some point where we get a little bit more into the tools 00:08:28.937 --> 00:08:30.517 and tricks and things that we do. 00:08:30.537 --> 00:08:31.337 I think that'd be fun. 00:08:31.832 --> 00:08:32.162 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:32.182 --> 00:08:35.612 One of the things that surprised me about Mint was that I could connect 00:08:36.162 --> 00:08:43.212 my like, Stripe stock account, which is run through Solidus, I think it's 00:08:43.212 --> 00:08:47.922 Shareworks, Solium, Solium, which is a Morgan Stanley thing, so maybe that's 00:08:47.922 --> 00:08:54.507 not too, too surprising, but that you could see, The value of your private 00:08:54.677 --> 00:08:57.467 stock in mint, which was kind of cool. 00:08:57.497 --> 00:09:01.207 It's like being able to see as that changes and as the valuation changes. 00:09:01.217 --> 00:09:01.497 And 00:09:01.897 --> 00:09:05.507 Colin: Yeah, a little bit less so these days, like everything is 00:09:05.507 --> 00:09:07.447 just pure red in the stock market. 00:09:09.007 --> 00:09:11.217 CJ: yeah, but it gives you a good idea of like. 00:09:11.557 --> 00:09:16.527 You know, how am I tracking towards, you know financial independence 00:09:16.587 --> 00:09:19.897 or, you know, how much margin do I really have in my life? 00:09:19.897 --> 00:09:26.747 Or should I really be like buckling down and getting, as Dave Ramsey would say, 00:09:26.757 --> 00:09:31.377 gazelle intense about my budgeting and like, you know, rat like, I don't know, 00:09:32.167 --> 00:09:37.597 eating rice every night or something, trying to thin out the, the lifestyle. 00:09:37.607 --> 00:09:37.917 But, 00:09:38.807 --> 00:09:42.097 Colin: yeah, well, in the similar vein to that, an update from last 00:09:42.097 --> 00:09:45.997 episode is that I did not drop a bunch of money on a school bus. 00:09:46.217 --> 00:09:49.497 So I was outbid and I can't remember. 00:09:49.577 --> 00:09:50.332 I think I like. 00:09:50.782 --> 00:09:54.182 Emotionally, I just had to set a limit and walk away. 00:09:54.182 --> 00:09:58.172 And so I put four grand down as my limit and walked away and they 00:09:58.172 --> 00:10:00.112 sold for four grand, but not to me. 00:10:00.112 --> 00:10:03.902 So I think that means that somebody had a four grand limit put in before me. 00:10:04.462 --> 00:10:05.232 And it's okay. 00:10:05.262 --> 00:10:09.232 Cause I would have had to figure out how to go get the bus and drive it back. 00:10:09.232 --> 00:10:09.732 Right now. 00:10:09.732 --> 00:10:12.042 I would probably be doing that right now. 00:10:12.267 --> 00:10:13.707 I'm happy to not be doing that. 00:10:13.707 --> 00:10:16.877 So I will keep an eye out for another school bus. 00:10:16.877 --> 00:10:20.667 We'll see if, if I'm still interested when another bus comes up, then I feel 00:10:20.667 --> 00:10:22.127 like it's going to be another bit. 00:10:22.137 --> 00:10:25.697 Cause you know, it's a good, it's a good test of like, is this just 00:10:25.697 --> 00:10:27.517 a fixation of mine right now? 00:10:27.527 --> 00:10:29.427 Or is it something that I really want to do? 00:10:29.427 --> 00:10:34.082 And I did have to figure out like, In another, yet another spreadsheet 00:10:34.572 --> 00:10:37.802 do I, where do I store it? 00:10:37.802 --> 00:10:38.772 Where do I work on it? 00:10:39.142 --> 00:10:41.652 How and when do I find the time to do all that stuff? 00:10:41.652 --> 00:10:43.362 So I have some more time to figure that out. 00:10:44.262 --> 00:10:46.332 Can make a better informed decision, but 00:10:46.382 --> 00:10:46.832 CJ: Nice. 00:10:47.272 --> 00:10:47.532 Yeah. 00:10:47.532 --> 00:10:50.442 Speaking of utility vehicles, I've had this idea. 00:10:50.892 --> 00:10:53.412 This is sort of like a, I don't know. 00:10:54.272 --> 00:10:59.232 If this started when I was burnt out when I was at Stripe or like when this 00:10:59.362 --> 00:11:04.912 onset happened But I have this weird desire to start like a leaf A leaf 00:11:04.952 --> 00:11:09.392 blowing company that like comes to your house And we'll just I don't want to 00:11:09.392 --> 00:11:13.282 like do the leaf blowing into the pile I just want to come over and like use the 00:11:13.282 --> 00:11:16.192 vacuum thing that like sucks up all the leaves into the truck and then drives 00:11:16.192 --> 00:11:20.472 away And so it'd be like an uber like some sort of like uber for a leaf pickup 00:11:21.312 --> 00:11:24.232 Colin: I feel like this is a, the next craft work service. 00:11:24.427 --> 00:11:25.297 CJ: Yeah, it could be. 00:11:25.297 --> 00:11:27.327 It definitely is like a Kraftwerk add on for sure. 00:11:27.612 --> 00:11:29.962 Colin: Mike, Mike's already got you thinking about the 00:11:29.962 --> 00:11:31.622 future, future house things. 00:11:31.707 --> 00:11:38.417 CJ: yeah, I mean, I, the It crossed my mind that a school bus would be a good 00:11:38.417 --> 00:11:44.607 solution for this because you can get like a towable leaf vacuum for like 00:11:44.607 --> 00:11:47.997 two grand and then you just like open up the back window and you have it all 00:11:47.997 --> 00:11:52.197 blow in there and Then you have some system for I don't know compacting and 00:11:52.407 --> 00:11:55.847 Colin: You just make like a really, or like if you've seen a wood shops, they 00:11:55.847 --> 00:11:57.577 have the really big dust collectors. 00:11:57.577 --> 00:11:57.757 Right. 00:11:57.757 --> 00:12:00.997 And so you just fill up the entire school bus with leaves. 00:12:01.162 --> 00:12:02.312 CJ: Yes, exactly. 00:12:02.402 --> 00:12:02.762 Yeah. 00:12:03.582 --> 00:12:03.772 And 00:12:03.857 --> 00:12:04.747 Colin: Very brandable. 00:12:05.242 --> 00:12:07.492 CJ: yeah, like, Oh, what's the, what is the by product? 00:12:07.492 --> 00:12:14.152 How could we sell like the leaves somehow as, you know, maybe somehow 00:12:14.482 --> 00:12:18.792 reprocess them into pellets that then go into pellet stoves or reprocess 00:12:18.792 --> 00:12:20.562 them into some sort of like mulch. 00:12:20.742 --> 00:12:21.002 Yeah. 00:12:21.002 --> 00:12:21.702 Compost. 00:12:21.702 --> 00:12:21.952 Yeah. 00:12:21.952 --> 00:12:22.672 Some other things. 00:12:22.682 --> 00:12:22.962 So 00:12:23.887 --> 00:12:24.957 Colin: I'd be a stinky bus, 00:12:25.442 --> 00:12:25.822 CJ: Right. 00:12:25.832 --> 00:12:28.092 Those like feed the bus or those, yeah. 00:12:28.092 --> 00:12:28.272 Like 00:12:28.417 --> 00:12:30.347 Colin: biodiesel for the bus 00:12:30.702 --> 00:12:31.442 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:31.442 --> 00:12:32.032 Yeah. 00:12:33.232 --> 00:12:36.282 So anyways, nerding out about whatever. 00:12:36.472 --> 00:12:39.002 Colin: Anything we can do to get away from a computer these days. 00:12:39.002 --> 00:12:39.162 I think, 00:12:41.267 --> 00:12:41.657 CJ: Yep. 00:12:41.747 --> 00:12:42.087 Yep. 00:12:42.597 --> 00:12:45.327 And also it, I only think about it in fall. 00:12:45.407 --> 00:12:50.757 Like right now we are literally making several dump runs per week with the truck 00:12:50.757 --> 00:12:54.107 full of leaves because I don't know. 00:12:54.197 --> 00:12:57.157 In New England there's, there are a lot of leaves. 00:12:58.012 --> 00:12:58.582 Colin: definitely. 00:12:59.662 --> 00:13:00.122 All right. 00:13:00.122 --> 00:13:02.322 Well, there's, there's the school bus update. 00:13:03.237 --> 00:13:04.407 We'll get back into it. 00:13:04.417 --> 00:13:06.157 Maybe you'll have a school bus one day. 00:13:06.197 --> 00:13:08.127 We'll just have a couple of schoolies. 00:13:08.227 --> 00:13:12.127 But what are you what are you working on in front of the computer this 00:13:12.267 --> 00:13:14.737 CJ: Yeah, we got a couple things going on. 00:13:14.997 --> 00:13:18.837 At Kraftwerk, we're still building out this comm center for customer 00:13:19.007 --> 00:13:23.887 customer facing comms, and I've been integrating with Twilio Flex. 00:13:24.637 --> 00:13:30.317 Which is like this drop in UI that lets you handle incoming phone calls. 00:13:30.327 --> 00:13:33.087 You can make outgoing phone calls with a little dial pad. 00:13:33.567 --> 00:13:37.677 You can do incoming texts, outgoing texts, and then also like a web 00:13:37.677 --> 00:13:40.987 chat widget all through their UI. 00:13:41.807 --> 00:13:44.847 And when I was testing it out and sort of validating this idea, I was like, 00:13:44.867 --> 00:13:46.187 Oh yeah, this is going to work great. 00:13:46.267 --> 00:13:48.687 And then we don't have to build all these different things ourselves. 00:13:48.687 --> 00:13:53.067 And at least for the desktop experience where agents can like 00:13:53.067 --> 00:13:57.557 mark themselves as available and then they can have these inbound support 00:13:57.557 --> 00:13:59.087 or sales requests routed to them. 00:13:59.117 --> 00:14:03.667 I thought this is a pretty sweet way to avoid a bunch of dev work. 00:14:05.777 --> 00:14:12.577 And so I went to go implement it for realsies and realized that in the dev 00:14:12.577 --> 00:14:16.617 experience, you can easily log into the console as an admin just by like 00:14:16.797 --> 00:14:19.757 offing into the Twilio admin interface. 00:14:20.217 --> 00:14:25.027 But in order to log in as like agents in real life, I wanted to have a 00:14:25.037 --> 00:14:28.047 single sign on experience so they didn't have to like go to Twilio 00:14:28.047 --> 00:14:29.977 and create yet another account. 00:14:30.467 --> 00:14:33.047 And so I started learning SAML, which is like. 00:14:34.027 --> 00:14:36.807 This SSO protocol that you can implement. 00:14:36.827 --> 00:14:42.837 It's what, you know, if you are not logging in with OAuth, but you're logging 00:14:42.837 --> 00:14:48.417 in with SSO, meaning you just open some corporate website that is probably 00:14:48.427 --> 00:14:53.127 somehow tangentially related to your big corporate company and it automatically 00:14:53.127 --> 00:14:56.867 logs you in, you don't have to put in anything like not even your like Google. 00:14:57.157 --> 00:14:57.487 Like. 00:14:57.892 --> 00:15:01.412 Email and password, then that's probably happening through SAML. 00:15:02.262 --> 00:15:07.252 It turns out there are a couple of different libraries in Rails for 00:15:07.252 --> 00:15:11.822 setting up your Rails application as either a SAML identity provider 00:15:12.462 --> 00:15:14.882 or a SAML service provider. 00:15:15.042 --> 00:15:18.042 And so in this case, Twilio is the service provider. 00:15:18.412 --> 00:15:21.432 So we're implementing like the identity provider side of that, 00:15:21.452 --> 00:15:23.572 which is, it's interesting. 00:15:23.572 --> 00:15:28.232 There's like a lot of new off concepts that I'm trying to pick up and learn. 00:15:28.232 --> 00:15:33.462 And all these different things about XML attestations and how you 00:15:33.462 --> 00:15:35.462 sign this thing or sign that thing. 00:15:35.462 --> 00:15:40.612 And there's instead of one URL, there's like 10 different or more like five 00:15:40.652 --> 00:15:43.432 Colin: Sounds like OAuth to, to nth degree. 00:15:43.707 --> 00:15:45.467 CJ: Yeah, it's sort of like OAuth. 00:15:45.657 --> 00:15:49.957 If it's like, I don't know, I've been trying to think of it as 00:15:49.957 --> 00:15:53.977 like OAuth and OpenID and JWT 00:15:54.292 --> 00:15:56.762 Colin: Well, and you have like a directory usually too. 00:15:56.762 --> 00:16:00.562 So it's like with OAuth, it's like, oh, anyone with a Twitter account can OAuth. 00:16:00.602 --> 00:16:05.012 But now it's like, no, if you're not in this directory or LDAP or whatever 00:16:05.012 --> 00:16:07.912 it is, you're not allowed to, to OAuth. 00:16:08.557 --> 00:16:09.197 CJ: exactly. 00:16:09.207 --> 00:16:11.697 And then it's also like, what roles do they have? 00:16:11.697 --> 00:16:14.637 And like, what are all these other like, really particular details 00:16:14.637 --> 00:16:16.037 that the service provider wants. 00:16:16.047 --> 00:16:20.077 So on the identity provider side, you're supposed to like, try to be 00:16:20.077 --> 00:16:23.727 as flexible as you need to be to work with all the service providers. 00:16:24.182 --> 00:16:28.072 By implementing like attributes that they all require. 00:16:28.072 --> 00:16:31.372 So maybe some of them need an email and other ones need a user 00:16:31.372 --> 00:16:34.472 ID and other ones need you know, their title at the company or the 00:16:34.472 --> 00:16:35.582 department they work in or whatever. 00:16:35.632 --> 00:16:41.592 So yeah, kind of digging through that, but that's been interesting 00:16:41.592 --> 00:16:42.662 to learn about for sure. 00:16:42.932 --> 00:16:43.302 So. 00:16:44.447 --> 00:16:47.787 Colin: Yeah, we use, I think a lot of startups and companies use Okta. 00:16:47.837 --> 00:16:51.337 I don't know if Okta is like, is it technically SAML under the hood? 00:16:51.377 --> 00:16:54.057 It's probably a whole bunch of different flavors of different things. 00:16:54.467 --> 00:17:00.367 CJ: Yeah, I think Okta, like Okta and Auth0 and a lot of these folks provide, 00:17:00.547 --> 00:17:07.767 like they are both IDP and service provider and like an OAuth platform 00:17:07.847 --> 00:17:11.837 Colin: They're a bridge from OAuth to the providers for SAML. 00:17:11.897 --> 00:17:12.197 Yeah. 00:17:12.217 --> 00:17:12.617 CJ: yeah. 00:17:12.657 --> 00:17:16.457 So Okta, they do have like tons of documentation though for testing and 00:17:17.107 --> 00:17:19.477 learning about SAML, which is pretty cool. 00:17:19.547 --> 00:17:24.077 So, uh, anyways, I didn't find any content on YouTube about this. 00:17:24.087 --> 00:17:27.077 So this is like, as soon as I figure this shit out, there's 00:17:27.097 --> 00:17:28.357 going to be some content because 00:17:28.892 --> 00:17:29.222 Colin: for you. 00:17:29.222 --> 00:17:29.532 Yeah. 00:17:29.547 --> 00:17:30.647 CJ: using, yeah. 00:17:30.877 --> 00:17:31.187 So. 00:17:32.367 --> 00:17:35.697 Working on that and yeah, what, what, what's going on with 00:17:35.697 --> 00:17:36.977 the, the conference room thing? 00:17:37.227 --> 00:17:40.967 How's the conference room booking software going for 00:17:41.017 --> 00:17:41.267 Colin: Yeah. 00:17:41.267 --> 00:17:42.047 It's going good. 00:17:42.257 --> 00:17:45.847 I started, I just had like a lightning bolt the other night in my brain where 00:17:45.847 --> 00:17:47.197 I was like, I just need to work on this. 00:17:47.237 --> 00:17:51.737 And so I'm in that accountability group and we've got two more meetings, I think. 00:17:51.737 --> 00:17:54.267 So I got. 00:17:54.752 --> 00:17:59.272 A lot of the Google Calendar stuff working in React and Node, and I used 00:17:59.342 --> 00:18:04.642 Tailwind to do a little UI for it and I'm not doing, I'm doing like the 00:18:04.642 --> 00:18:09.542 iPad screen right now, I've just like, this room's either green or red, it's 00:18:09.542 --> 00:18:12.712 available or not available, and then you can tap on a button that will, 00:18:13.182 --> 00:18:17.052 Anonymous, like if you tap on it, it'll just book it for whoever tapped on it. 00:18:17.062 --> 00:18:19.992 There's no sense of who logged in and did it. 00:18:20.002 --> 00:18:21.382 We don't really need to know that. 00:18:21.752 --> 00:18:24.892 But we want to have the ability for like you to log in and book 00:18:24.892 --> 00:18:28.312 a room for tomorrow or for me to log in and book one for next week. 00:18:28.852 --> 00:18:31.132 And I'm starting to like, look at this node and react app. 00:18:31.132 --> 00:18:34.002 And I'm like, I do not want to do all this stuff from scratch. 00:18:34.052 --> 00:18:37.022 And so I think I'm going to move to jumpstart. 00:18:37.692 --> 00:18:41.052 Move it to rails because I don't want to build all that stuff. 00:18:41.102 --> 00:18:44.502 And then I think I was going to use react native, but I think I'd rather 00:18:44.502 --> 00:18:48.612 use turbo native and just play around with that to be able to handle the iPad. 00:18:49.032 --> 00:18:52.152 And then eventually like Android or whatever, if someone really wanted 00:18:52.152 --> 00:18:53.922 that, we have the iPads already. 00:18:53.922 --> 00:18:56.437 So it would just be, you know, an iPad app. 00:18:56.537 --> 00:18:59.017 I was planning on just doing it as a website for now too. 00:18:59.117 --> 00:19:01.577 Like it doesn't need to be fully native though. 00:19:01.597 --> 00:19:06.697 The Robin one has some cool hooks where it knows when our hours are 00:19:07.227 --> 00:19:10.587 and on the weekends and stuff, it actually dims the iPads. 00:19:10.637 --> 00:19:13.627 And so it hooks into the actual stuff. 00:19:13.627 --> 00:19:16.497 So I'm not sure if TurboNative gives us that, or if we have to 00:19:16.497 --> 00:19:20.487 like create a function in, in, you know, Swift or Objective C that 00:19:20.597 --> 00:19:22.857 TurboNative can call to do that stuff. 00:19:23.397 --> 00:19:25.337 Those are obviously like scope creep. 00:19:25.767 --> 00:19:26.757 To hell for sure. 00:19:26.757 --> 00:19:29.067 Like I don't need to have auto dimming iPads for this. 00:19:29.457 --> 00:19:34.817 So my goal for my presentation, my show and tell will be just that the iPad 00:19:34.817 --> 00:19:38.287 app turns from green to red when people have, when the room is actually booked. 00:19:38.717 --> 00:19:40.997 And there's like a little bit of admin, like you need to be able 00:19:41.027 --> 00:19:46.297 to create a few conference rooms and assign iPads to those rooms. 00:19:46.667 --> 00:19:50.627 And then that way each iPad knows which one it is. 00:19:51.007 --> 00:19:53.247 So that it knows like, okay, this is downstairs. 00:19:53.817 --> 00:19:55.367 This is the calendar that's associated. 00:19:55.387 --> 00:19:58.907 So you need to have the OAuth, like an admin OAuth in and 00:19:58.917 --> 00:20:00.567 give access to the calendars. 00:20:01.107 --> 00:20:03.737 And so you have this room, this calendar, this iPad. 00:20:04.142 --> 00:20:04.932 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:20:05.632 --> 00:20:06.092 Sweet. 00:20:06.417 --> 00:20:08.067 Colin: yeah, that's kind of where we're at right now. 00:20:08.067 --> 00:20:10.947 And we get the, we get to have the obligatory Chris 00:20:10.997 --> 00:20:12.497 Oliver shout out that way. 00:20:12.537 --> 00:20:13.647 We get to mention Jumpstart. 00:20:13.937 --> 00:20:14.387 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:14.447 --> 00:20:14.807 Yep. 00:20:15.887 --> 00:20:16.277 Totally. 00:20:16.277 --> 00:20:22.517 Yeah, I jumpstart, I don't know, I've started leaning on it a ton for things. 00:20:23.087 --> 00:20:25.547 So it, yeah, I, I'm, I'm loving it. 00:20:25.977 --> 00:20:29.987 Colin: If I stick the node way, it's like, okay, do I want to go figure out which ORM 00:20:29.987 --> 00:20:32.247 I'm going to use and build out my models? 00:20:32.247 --> 00:20:34.217 And no, I just want. 00:20:34.512 --> 00:20:36.982 To have user logins and all of that. 00:20:38.052 --> 00:20:38.432 CJ: right. 00:20:38.572 --> 00:20:45.942 Yeah, I think the closest I've seen to something that was productive and kind 00:20:45.942 --> 00:20:51.752 of like got you started on the JavaScript side was remix, like the remix experience 00:20:51.752 --> 00:20:56.492 where they, and they have these things called remix stacks where I think 00:20:56.752 --> 00:21:01.392 Kent C Dodds maybe has like a repo or something, or maybe it's on the remix 00:21:01.402 --> 00:21:05.962 repo where you can say like, Oh, I want to create a new remix app from this stack. 00:21:06.362 --> 00:21:09.552 And it will have like auth already built for you. 00:21:09.632 --> 00:21:12.872 And it will tell you this, you're going to use Prisma and you're going 00:21:12.872 --> 00:21:16.202 to use fly to deploy and you're going to use whatever, and then 00:21:16.202 --> 00:21:17.422 you kind of just follow that path. 00:21:17.432 --> 00:21:23.512 But even with that sort of kickstart, I still didn't feel like it was as 00:21:23.512 --> 00:21:24.902 productive as you can be with Rails. 00:21:24.902 --> 00:21:25.582 And so 00:21:26.212 --> 00:21:30.132 Colin: It's tricky because if, if all that stuff's been done for you, you need 00:21:30.132 --> 00:21:31.952 to figure out how they did it for you. 00:21:32.082 --> 00:21:32.442 Right. 00:21:32.762 --> 00:21:36.712 And in rails, it's like, okay, I know these patterns and I know which 00:21:36.712 --> 00:21:39.002 drawers to look in and JavaScript. 00:21:39.002 --> 00:21:41.952 You're like, Oh, that's an opinion way to do this. 00:21:41.982 --> 00:21:44.712 And I guess I'm going to now have this opinion if I don't want 00:21:44.712 --> 00:21:48.642 to swim upstream against all of the things that they recommend. 00:21:48.742 --> 00:21:49.202 So. 00:21:50.312 --> 00:21:50.642 CJ: Right. 00:21:50.672 --> 00:21:54.382 And it's right now, I don't think remix is like the number one most popular thing. 00:21:54.382 --> 00:21:59.272 And so who knows if that will end up being supported long term and, or is next 00:21:59.272 --> 00:22:02.612 JS going to just continue to steamroll everything that happens over there. 00:22:02.612 --> 00:22:02.912 And 00:22:03.352 --> 00:22:03.752 Colin: Right. 00:22:04.282 --> 00:22:08.942 Well, and I don't really get to write Ruby at my current job, so it'll 00:22:09.142 --> 00:22:13.742 be good to get back into that world just to stay connected to Rails and 00:22:13.742 --> 00:22:17.442 stay connected to Ruby because I am, I'm eyeing RailsConf for next year. 00:22:17.892 --> 00:22:22.322 Just as a, probably as an attendee, maybe I'll think of some talks to submit, but 00:22:22.972 --> 00:22:27.502 I'm already, I think two for two on the last two RailsConfs for doing a talk. 00:22:27.502 --> 00:22:27.882 So, 00:22:29.142 --> 00:22:30.242 CJ: nice, nice. 00:22:30.942 --> 00:22:31.382 Yeah. 00:22:31.682 --> 00:22:32.742 Well, yeah, I don't know. 00:22:32.742 --> 00:22:36.372 It just, it also just, yeah, will make you happier if you get to write 00:22:36.542 --> 00:22:37.812 Colin: yeah, totally. 00:22:38.142 --> 00:22:39.792 How's the story feel going? 00:22:40.272 --> 00:22:40.932 CJ: Oh yeah. 00:22:40.932 --> 00:22:42.552 So I don't 00:22:42.642 --> 00:22:44.612 Colin: know if we, I don't know if we used the name last 00:22:44.642 --> 00:22:46.212 CJ: Yeah, we didn't use the name last time. 00:22:46.212 --> 00:22:50.022 So story fuel is a little side project I'm hacking on. 00:22:51.212 --> 00:22:56.422 The idea in the beginning was, Oh, I want to give I'm going to author 00:22:56.442 --> 00:23:00.282 a story, a fiction story, and I want to give it just like a little bit of 00:23:00.282 --> 00:23:05.682 a, you know, genre audience, short description, and then have it spit out 00:23:05.692 --> 00:23:07.732 like a really good starting point for me. 00:23:07.732 --> 00:23:09.792 And then use that to go do stuff. 00:23:10.442 --> 00:23:15.742 And what it's sort of morphed into is that I made it so that you can give it those 00:23:15.752 --> 00:23:22.912 things and it uses a bunch of open AI endpoints and it will write a story and 00:23:22.912 --> 00:23:28.472 you can sort of, uh, guide it a little bit, but it will write a story for you. 00:23:28.502 --> 00:23:30.662 And then I'm using 11 labs. 00:23:32.682 --> 00:23:39.942 So I'll convert the story into audio and then I'm using FFmpeg to like 00:23:39.982 --> 00:23:43.822 combine and concatenate all these audios into like one long audio. 00:23:44.242 --> 00:23:50.582 And then I use Descript and images from Dali to cut like a little video together. 00:23:51.012 --> 00:23:54.942 So it's like it's kind of like a little audio book with. 00:23:55.787 --> 00:24:01.037 The captions kind of flashing at you the descript way and I I'm going to start 00:24:01.037 --> 00:24:06.977 publishing all of the episodes on, uh, on like a podcast story fuel podcast. 00:24:06.987 --> 00:24:10.567 So I think the direction it's heading is that you'll be able 00:24:10.567 --> 00:24:14.057 to dear listener head over to. 00:24:14.422 --> 00:24:20.272 Some website eventually and suggest a story and then it may or may not get 00:24:20.272 --> 00:24:25.922 picked up by story fuel and converted into something that you can listen to or watch 00:24:25.962 --> 00:24:27.582 Colin: of a cool interactive way, right? 00:24:27.582 --> 00:24:32.372 If you're subscribed to StoryFuel podcast and you submitted, like you 00:24:32.372 --> 00:24:36.422 have this, you know, creative community of submitting stories and then like 00:24:36.442 --> 00:24:40.922 yours gets turned into a story and shows up on the list and that's cool. 00:24:41.482 --> 00:24:45.492 Are you going to have a three, three books per day limit like Amazon? 00:24:47.167 --> 00:24:52.707 CJ: So I, what I found was that it doesn't generate enough content for it 00:24:52.717 --> 00:24:56.247 to be like an audio book or like a, an actual book that you could like, yeah. 00:24:56.687 --> 00:24:59.517 So you still would need to like heavily, heavily edit it. 00:25:00.292 --> 00:25:05.242 Right now it, it comes out to like between 20 and 30 minutes of audio. 00:25:05.572 --> 00:25:07.662 Which is like perfect for a podcast, right? 00:25:07.662 --> 00:25:11.002 Like you want a podcast that's kind of bite sized. 00:25:11.092 --> 00:25:14.252 And so what I've been doing lately is sort of asking it to tell me 00:25:14.252 --> 00:25:15.782 stories that I'm interested in. 00:25:16.112 --> 00:25:19.992 So I'm like, tell me about a dystopian future where AI is taking over and 00:25:19.992 --> 00:25:23.182 like some hacker has to save the world or whatever, and then it spits 00:25:23.182 --> 00:25:26.362 out a bunch of stuff that is, I think is like kind of interesting. 00:25:26.472 --> 00:25:31.282 And so Yeah, it also like will develop the characters. 00:25:31.652 --> 00:25:34.542 So like one by one, it'll go through and add character traits 00:25:34.542 --> 00:25:35.972 and detail and all this stuff. 00:25:35.982 --> 00:25:40.752 And then I use those as input into the Dolly output in generation. 00:25:40.752 --> 00:25:43.902 So I'm like, Oh my gosh, like that's totally this character. 00:25:43.902 --> 00:25:45.162 You know, that's Nikki right there. 00:25:45.162 --> 00:25:45.802 Like, look at that. 00:25:45.802 --> 00:25:46.522 That's a wild 00:25:46.602 --> 00:25:48.192 Colin: What'd you think of 11 labs, 00:25:49.232 --> 00:25:50.832 CJ: Oh my gosh, it's really good. 00:25:50.832 --> 00:25:52.552 I've been, so 11 labs. 00:25:53.237 --> 00:25:56.017 Takes text and converts it into audio for you. 00:25:56.967 --> 00:26:01.937 Now, there are a lot of text to audio tools that you can use, but 00:26:01.937 --> 00:26:06.897 what 11 labs has surprised me with is that depending on the context. 00:26:07.542 --> 00:26:12.832 Of the, of the text, it will use different emphasis and it's not the same every 00:26:12.832 --> 00:26:16.702 time and it's definitely like kind of, I don't know if stable diffusion, it's 00:26:16.702 --> 00:26:20.232 like some sort of thing that they're trying to figure out, like, how would 00:26:20.242 --> 00:26:24.712 this reader read this sentence in this context, not just like, how would 00:26:24.712 --> 00:26:26.442 they say this specific word or phrase? 00:26:26.842 --> 00:26:30.332 And so it comes out a lot less robotic, I would say, and they 00:26:30.332 --> 00:26:32.642 have in the same way that. 00:26:33.597 --> 00:26:37.787 If you've played around with any of like the GPT playground or models, how 00:26:37.787 --> 00:26:42.117 you can control the temperature, which makes it like more or less creative or 00:26:42.117 --> 00:26:46.727 whatever, or like kind of more or less off the beaten path, you can control this 00:26:46.727 --> 00:26:51.727 like stability and some other parameters that go into the 11 labs prompt, and 00:26:51.727 --> 00:26:57.297 then it'll come out like more or less sort of emphasis on its own sort of 00:26:57.307 --> 00:27:00.227 accents and syllables and things yeah. 00:27:00.632 --> 00:27:02.732 So, yeah, it's been pretty sick. 00:27:02.832 --> 00:27:06.332 It's also been really fun to learn ffmpeg, like more of ffmpeg. 00:27:06.362 --> 00:27:09.792 It's such a, that is such a powerful little piece of software. 00:27:09.792 --> 00:27:11.552 It's just mind blowing what you can do with it. 00:27:11.562 --> 00:27:17.682 So my next little task that I have in mind for that is like, take the 00:27:17.692 --> 00:27:19.487 images that were generated from dolly. 00:27:20.137 --> 00:27:24.597 And use FFmpeg to cut a video instead of having to do it manually in Descript. 00:27:25.667 --> 00:27:31.137 sO the idea is like, oh, it's going to generate the story arc and all of 00:27:31.137 --> 00:27:34.307 the chapters of the story and all the content for the chapters and all the 00:27:34.307 --> 00:27:38.117 characters and all the places and then it'll generate images for the characters 00:27:38.117 --> 00:27:42.552 and the places and it'll keep track of their memories and then it'll, you know, 00:27:43.262 --> 00:27:46.832 generate this audio and then ultimately cut it all together and splice it 00:27:46.832 --> 00:27:48.512 into something that I want to watch. 00:27:48.992 --> 00:27:52.562 And the pipe dream and what I've been telling people is that like, in the 00:27:52.562 --> 00:27:59.262 future, I don't think people are going to be able to sell like generated content 00:28:00.002 --> 00:28:04.772 that is like, I'm not gonna generate like a book and sell it on Amazon. 00:28:05.032 --> 00:28:09.002 Instead, you'll build a platform where someone comes and says, I want to hear 00:28:09.002 --> 00:28:13.612 a story or see a movie about X, and that is going to be generated for you. 00:28:14.452 --> 00:28:18.582 Like in real time that and it's going to be one for one, you experience it 00:28:18.592 --> 00:28:20.232 one time and then it's gone forever. 00:28:20.282 --> 00:28:22.922 And it's right around the corner. 00:28:22.922 --> 00:28:28.422 And the fact that I'm just little old me hacking around, like a couple of tools 00:28:28.422 --> 00:28:32.217 on the weekend and able to put together enough that like, You can get pretty 00:28:32.217 --> 00:28:38.307 good fidelity or like pretty interesting stories just out of whatever open AI. 00:28:38.417 --> 00:28:38.757 So 00:28:39.262 --> 00:28:43.882 Colin: Yeah, there's, there's this big wave of, I think Cory Doctorow's book, 00:28:43.912 --> 00:28:47.662 and he's making waves right now on the inshittification of the internet. 00:28:48.292 --> 00:28:53.802 And what I'm really curious to see is whether or not, like, I'm not sure if you, 00:28:54.232 --> 00:28:58.972 have you played around with asking it to do stories that are based on a theme of 00:28:58.972 --> 00:29:00.672 an existing story or anything like that? 00:29:01.247 --> 00:29:05.787 CJ: I, I haven't just because I want to be able to like publish 00:29:05.787 --> 00:29:07.067 them and I don't want it to. 00:29:07.262 --> 00:29:08.542 Colin: Be like a new hope. 00:29:09.372 --> 00:29:10.102 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:29:10.112 --> 00:29:11.172 My kids are my kids. 00:29:11.172 --> 00:29:14.302 On the other hand, when we're playing around with it, they're like, do a one 00:29:14.302 --> 00:29:18.512 that's yeah, do one that's based on on Star Wars or like make the character 00:29:18.512 --> 00:29:21.192 based on Han Solo or do one about Pokemon. 00:29:21.192 --> 00:29:24.852 I'm like, no, like, I don't want to take anyone's IP. 00:29:24.882 --> 00:29:30.442 Like, I want it to be just some generic storyline that will be interesting. 00:29:30.442 --> 00:29:33.252 And I want new characters that I've never seen before and whatever. 00:29:33.262 --> 00:29:33.542 But, 00:29:34.002 --> 00:29:36.552 Colin: But the, the thing, the thing there is when you're talking to it 00:29:36.552 --> 00:29:39.872 about making stories, like, it is basing it on what it knows about. 00:29:39.872 --> 00:29:40.122 Right. 00:29:40.122 --> 00:29:46.012 And so over time, do we get this general, like, reversion to the mean 00:29:46.012 --> 00:29:49.722 story, right, where it's like, it's now being trained on other AI stories, 00:29:49.722 --> 00:29:51.142 and it's garbage in garbage out. 00:29:51.142 --> 00:29:54.582 And I think that this idea of prompt engineering or 00:29:54.592 --> 00:29:56.822 storytelling is pretty powerful. 00:29:56.822 --> 00:29:57.832 Because if you can Okay. 00:29:57.932 --> 00:30:01.202 Have an idea for a story and then use, like when you think of like the Iron 00:30:01.202 --> 00:30:06.432 Man movies where he's kind of like riffing and having Jarvis pull in things. 00:30:06.432 --> 00:30:10.732 But he's still very much in the cockpit and very much pulling it all together. 00:30:10.732 --> 00:30:13.832 And it's pretty powerful because I think there's still gonna be that 00:30:13.832 --> 00:30:19.482 storytelling element and still having that un or we end up with a bunch of 00:30:19.482 --> 00:30:21.482 things that end up being the same. 00:30:22.162 --> 00:30:24.282 So we'll see how that pans out. 00:30:24.557 --> 00:30:25.277 CJ: totally. 00:30:25.387 --> 00:30:31.097 So I reached out to Sam Bafa from that like works in the Reno Collective about 00:30:31.107 --> 00:30:33.087 his choose your own adventure platform. 00:30:33.097 --> 00:30:36.697 I don't know, I haven't talked to him in years, or and I 00:30:36.697 --> 00:30:37.757 don't have any updates on that. 00:30:37.757 --> 00:30:42.957 But I was like, Oh, another way that this could go is, as you're experiencing the 00:30:42.957 --> 00:30:46.717 story, whether it's in you're reading the written word, or you're listening, 00:30:47.412 --> 00:30:50.822 It would be sick if like you get to some point and you're like, actually, I don't 00:30:50.872 --> 00:30:53.502 like how this is going, just mix it up. 00:30:53.542 --> 00:30:56.512 And like from that point forward, the story is different. 00:30:56.592 --> 00:31:00.352 You know, like it can just like pick a different conflict or pick a different 00:31:00.872 --> 00:31:02.342 Colin: Or choose your own adventure, right? 00:31:02.437 --> 00:31:02.987 CJ: Exactly. 00:31:02.987 --> 00:31:03.527 It is literally 00:31:03.612 --> 00:31:03.892 Colin: you a 00:31:03.937 --> 00:31:04.427 CJ: own adventure. 00:31:04.792 --> 00:31:06.002 Yes, yes. 00:31:06.462 --> 00:31:11.322 And that's a, that's like totally another thing too is like when you, the way that 00:31:11.322 --> 00:31:14.332 it works right now is you give it this, you give it those like little pieces or 00:31:14.332 --> 00:31:18.412 whatever, and then it generates a story arc and some characters, and you have an 00:31:18.412 --> 00:31:21.712 opportunity to like edit the characters or edit the story arc at that point. 00:31:22.287 --> 00:31:25.277 And then you say, okay, now generate like a list of chapters that 00:31:25.277 --> 00:31:26.977 might happen within the story arc. 00:31:27.297 --> 00:31:29.677 And so then you can edit those chapters a little bit if you want. 00:31:30.417 --> 00:31:33.667 And then you say, generate, now generate the content for each of those chapters. 00:31:33.667 --> 00:31:36.297 And then you, if you want to do like the painstaking work of going in and 00:31:36.297 --> 00:31:38.017 editing all the content, you can do that. 00:31:38.537 --> 00:31:41.897 But yeah, so one, one thing is like, do a choose your own adventure version. 00:31:42.387 --> 00:31:45.937 The other thing was I, I thought about doing like a rap genius, like a rap 00:31:45.937 --> 00:31:50.677 genius style thing where like, In order to edit it, you sort of select a chunk 00:31:50.677 --> 00:31:56.007 of the text that you want to change and then give it a prompt that's like, make 00:31:56.007 --> 00:32:01.887 this more dialogue or, you know, you know, make this an alliteration or change 00:32:01.887 --> 00:32:04.477 this into like a joke or something. 00:32:04.487 --> 00:32:04.847 I don't know. 00:32:04.977 --> 00:32:07.777 Colin: Yeah, did you, did you ever watch the Black Mirror Bandersnatch movie? 00:32:07.777 --> 00:32:07.877 It's, 00:32:09.242 --> 00:32:10.732 CJ: no, I haven't. 00:32:10.957 --> 00:32:15.657 Colin: it's a, it's a, it's not AI that I know of, but it lets you 00:32:15.657 --> 00:32:18.192 choose options as you're watching it. 00:32:18.392 --> 00:32:22.592 So like the, the show, you're watching the show or the movie and it stops and 00:32:22.602 --> 00:32:25.102 asks you like which one you would do. 00:32:26.002 --> 00:32:26.452 CJ: okay. 00:32:26.612 --> 00:32:26.992 Okay. 00:32:27.202 --> 00:32:29.962 Colin: is different based on it, but it's, it's not AI generated. 00:32:29.962 --> 00:32:32.662 And I think there's like a certain number of possible outcomes 00:32:32.662 --> 00:32:33.872 and story branches and stuff. 00:32:33.872 --> 00:32:37.282 So it's like playing a video game or like you know, Knights of the 00:32:37.282 --> 00:32:38.822 Old Republic style type thing. 00:32:39.282 --> 00:32:40.332 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:32:40.332 --> 00:32:43.662 And in fact, like when I was thinking about doing the Choose Your Own Adventure 00:32:43.672 --> 00:32:48.692 version of this, My first thought was to use Dragon Ruby and like make it an 00:32:48.702 --> 00:32:54.222 interactive thing where you're kind of like, I don't know, maybe you become 00:32:54.302 --> 00:32:59.022 the protagonist and you have your little avatar that was generated by Dolly and 00:32:59.022 --> 00:33:03.962 you're just standing in a dark room type situation and it's reading off the 00:33:03.962 --> 00:33:07.352 text and then you can be like, no, I don't want to, or like, you know, more 00:33:07.352 --> 00:33:10.822 like, or kind of like a one player D& D situation where you're kind of like, 00:33:11.262 --> 00:33:12.802 Oh, I want to, I want this to happen. 00:33:12.802 --> 00:33:15.942 And you can type out, like, I want this to happen and then boom, the story changes. 00:33:16.322 --> 00:33:20.822 But what's interesting is like, I want to keep all of those characters memories. 00:33:21.352 --> 00:33:24.442 So I'm storing like a bunch of contexts in different tables in 00:33:24.442 --> 00:33:25.902 this giant Postgres database. 00:33:26.442 --> 00:33:30.042 And the idea is that I can use sort of use embeddings. 00:33:31.162 --> 00:33:32.332 With each of the memories. 00:33:32.342 --> 00:33:35.792 So then I can do like a vector search on all the memories and 00:33:35.792 --> 00:33:40.052 then embed the relative memories into the context when generating 00:33:40.052 --> 00:33:41.462 like the next section of the story. 00:33:41.952 --> 00:33:43.072 So I don't know. 00:33:43.392 --> 00:33:43.842 Colin: Wow. 00:33:44.362 --> 00:33:44.912 CJ: It's fun. 00:33:44.942 --> 00:33:46.522 It's like super, super nerdy. 00:33:46.522 --> 00:33:46.842 Like, 00:33:47.242 --> 00:33:50.032 Colin: I was going to say, I need to sit down and learn more about embeddings 00:33:50.052 --> 00:33:52.012 and vectors and all this stuff. 00:33:52.012 --> 00:33:53.022 It's, that's pretty cool. 00:33:53.412 --> 00:33:53.972 CJ: it's fun. 00:33:54.012 --> 00:33:54.692 It's super fun. 00:33:54.702 --> 00:33:58.422 And the tools are getting, I don't know, I feel like For a long time. 00:33:58.422 --> 00:33:59.482 I tried really hard. 00:33:59.482 --> 00:34:00.142 I was like, what is it? 00:34:00.152 --> 00:34:01.232 All this machine learning stuff. 00:34:01.232 --> 00:34:03.152 I really want to learn it and I don't get it. 00:34:03.522 --> 00:34:06.522 And a lot of the content I found was like how to implement and 00:34:06.522 --> 00:34:08.152 train your own models and whatever. 00:34:08.212 --> 00:34:12.612 And like, it was way over my head and it still is like all the mathy, like 00:34:12.622 --> 00:34:14.662 how the models actually work just. 00:34:15.032 --> 00:34:15.822 Escaped me. 00:34:15.862 --> 00:34:21.782 And to this day, if I watch anything about training or, you know, VLLM or 00:34:22.062 --> 00:34:27.542 like the, the new high speed stuff that makes it faster or whatever, I'm still 00:34:27.542 --> 00:34:29.462 just like, how do people figure this out? 00:34:29.462 --> 00:34:30.112 I don't get it. 00:34:30.442 --> 00:34:34.882 But when I'm using it and applying it like in actual applications, I'm like, 00:34:34.882 --> 00:34:37.412 holy smokes, like this is, this is fun. 00:34:37.422 --> 00:34:38.342 Like, it's pretty cool. 00:34:38.462 --> 00:34:39.672 So I don't know. 00:34:40.102 --> 00:34:40.782 It's 00:34:41.202 --> 00:34:43.152 Colin: sounds like something you're working on and learning. 00:34:43.152 --> 00:34:43.672 It's, it's a 00:34:43.802 --> 00:34:44.392 CJ: yes. 00:34:44.472 --> 00:34:44.992 Yeah. 00:34:45.382 --> 00:34:46.182 Colin: we're always learning. 00:34:46.532 --> 00:34:46.762 CJ: Yeah. 00:34:46.862 --> 00:34:47.402 Always learning. 00:34:47.472 --> 00:34:48.102 Always learning. 00:34:48.972 --> 00:34:49.762 Speaking of learning. 00:34:49.763 --> 00:34:49.837 Yeah. 00:34:50.687 --> 00:34:54.747 , you're doing some deep stuff over there with is that audio? 00:34:54.832 --> 00:34:55.252 Mm-Hmm. 00:34:55.492 --> 00:34:57.482 Colin: it doesn't feel too deep when it doesn't work. 00:34:58.142 --> 00:35:01.562 But kind of shifting back to my actual job. 00:35:02.122 --> 00:35:04.302 We've been trying to review our PRs. 00:35:04.312 --> 00:35:10.062 We have like our, our docs are public and so we take PRs to the docs and I'm trying 00:35:10.062 --> 00:35:17.622 to close out some PRs from 2022 so that we can get a clean slate of 2023 PRs. 00:35:17.702 --> 00:35:20.532 We're down to like less than 40 PRs open, so we're going 00:35:20.532 --> 00:35:21.692 to try to get through those. 00:35:21.722 --> 00:35:25.482 But we, one of them was around this voice connections. 00:35:25.482 --> 00:35:29.797 And so if you've used Discord, you know, you can And those bots 00:35:29.817 --> 00:35:31.607 can easily send texts like texts. 00:35:31.607 --> 00:35:32.847 We can test all day long. 00:35:33.367 --> 00:35:35.697 I can look at it and be like, yeah, that coach would work. 00:35:36.167 --> 00:35:42.177 But when it comes to a bot joining, so a bot can join a voice channel and you 00:35:42.177 --> 00:35:43.417 can do all kinds of stuff with that. 00:35:43.417 --> 00:35:47.587 You can have it play a sound, you can have it do all sorts of things like that. 00:35:47.957 --> 00:35:52.167 You can think of like a lot of the zoom apps and bots and Slack apps and things 00:35:52.167 --> 00:35:54.367 like that out there is that you can have. 00:35:54.587 --> 00:35:58.627 You know a soundboard for instance, which is also a feature of discord 00:35:58.657 --> 00:36:02.397 now, but before we had that, you could do it as a bot or an app. 00:36:03.027 --> 00:36:09.247 And so I couldn't figure out whether or not I could even merge the PR without 00:36:09.377 --> 00:36:10.857 sitting down and actually doing this. 00:36:10.857 --> 00:36:13.007 And it's pretty easy to do if you use. 00:36:13.122 --> 00:36:16.422 Like one of the third party libraries, because a lot of the libraries have built 00:36:16.422 --> 00:36:18.722 around all the basic tenets of this. 00:36:19.392 --> 00:36:24.742 But when I try to build our bots, I try to use just pure JavaScript or pure Ruby 00:36:24.742 --> 00:36:26.502 or pure Python, whatever it might be. 00:36:26.972 --> 00:36:29.252 So that I really understand like what's happening. 00:36:29.252 --> 00:36:32.552 Cause in our docs, we're not documenting libraries, we're documenting. 00:36:32.862 --> 00:36:34.962 The APIs that the libraries are using. 00:36:35.582 --> 00:36:41.732 And so I've been working on sending and receiving audio over like through discord. 00:36:42.192 --> 00:36:47.402 And so what I found is it's very hard to debug because you're working with packets 00:36:47.732 --> 00:36:53.222 and buffers and like you can't just console log or use a debugger and say like 00:36:53.222 --> 00:36:57.902 when you've chopped up audio files into tiny pieces, you can't listen back to it. 00:36:58.147 --> 00:37:00.987 And know, like, is it right? 00:37:01.117 --> 00:37:03.842 And when you send it to discord, you have to also encrypt it. 00:37:04.462 --> 00:37:07.832 And so once it's encrypted, I'm like, I have no idea. 00:37:07.932 --> 00:37:12.242 And I was able to, like, I started looking around to see if there's like anything 00:37:12.252 --> 00:37:17.832 around debugging UDP and audio like tools, and I didn't really find anything. 00:37:18.222 --> 00:37:22.152 There's a dev tool company called deep gram that does. 00:37:22.762 --> 00:37:24.622 Text to speech. 00:37:24.652 --> 00:37:27.932 And I think both the other way and they accept UDP stuff. 00:37:27.932 --> 00:37:30.672 So I was starting to play with their, like, look at their docs and like play 00:37:30.672 --> 00:37:33.652 around with their tools, because I was like, if I can get my audio to show 00:37:33.652 --> 00:37:38.512 up inside of their tool and translate it or like caption it, then I know 00:37:38.512 --> 00:37:42.562 it works and I know my code's working because with this court, I'm sending it. 00:37:42.742 --> 00:37:45.802 And I just don't even know if it's just not encrypted, right. 00:37:46.372 --> 00:37:49.052 Or what's happening, but I did set up like a local. 00:37:49.627 --> 00:37:55.957 UDP like echo server, and I was able to unencrypted send a little Zelda 00:37:56.217 --> 00:38:00.967 sound effect from my code to that server and have it output as an mp3. 00:38:01.277 --> 00:38:04.807 So like I know that part is all working and so I'm probably 00:38:04.807 --> 00:38:06.147 getting tripped up on encryption. 00:38:06.937 --> 00:38:11.107 And I'll probably bug some engineers next week about like, tell me what's wrong with 00:38:11.127 --> 00:38:13.327 my code, do a little code review, but. 00:38:13.877 --> 00:38:16.577 CJ: Is it So encryption is required or? 00:38:16.602 --> 00:38:17.022 Mm-Hmm. 00:38:17.197 --> 00:38:19.637 Colin: So there's this handshake that happens. 00:38:20.047 --> 00:38:22.727 So you have to connect to our WebSocket gateway. 00:38:23.217 --> 00:38:26.737 And then from that WebSocket gateway, you then establish, like when you join a 00:38:26.737 --> 00:38:29.417 voice channel, you establish a UDP socket. 00:38:29.977 --> 00:38:35.017 And so you're managing all these states and sockets and reconnects 00:38:35.017 --> 00:38:36.417 and heartbeats and all this stuff. 00:38:36.927 --> 00:38:39.377 And so I was able to recreate all of that, which is good because 00:38:39.377 --> 00:38:43.297 I've never done any of that before in our, in Discord specifically. 00:38:44.662 --> 00:38:48.092 And so just knowing like how the handshake works and what events are sent and 00:38:48.102 --> 00:38:51.902 being able to see it so that when other people open other PRs, we can actually 00:38:51.902 --> 00:38:56.662 like have this little playground to verify, like, that's how it works. 00:38:56.662 --> 00:38:59.672 That's how it's working as documented or no, that's right. 00:38:59.672 --> 00:39:01.792 It's, it's broken or whatever that might be. 00:39:02.402 --> 00:39:08.262 But in that handshake, we give you a key to use for, and different types of. 00:39:08.732 --> 00:39:13.032 Like hash like modes so that you have, I think there's three different ciphers 00:39:13.062 --> 00:39:15.372 that it could be and then a type of key. 00:39:15.742 --> 00:39:19.472 And so you use that to send along in your headers and you do that encryption 00:39:19.472 --> 00:39:25.392 on your end so that way you're not just sending through on encrypted voice. 00:39:25.957 --> 00:39:26.497 CJ: got it. 00:39:26.987 --> 00:39:27.447 Dang. 00:39:27.477 --> 00:39:28.637 That sounds interesting. 00:39:28.967 --> 00:39:29.307 Colin: Yeah. 00:39:29.597 --> 00:39:29.957 CJ: Yeah. 00:39:30.047 --> 00:39:30.177 Are 00:39:30.197 --> 00:39:34.237 Colin: ideally, I mean, I don't know if I'm, I'm hoping we can get it done so that 00:39:34.237 --> 00:39:39.217 like maybe we have our own voice SDK or something at some point, because sometimes 00:39:39.217 --> 00:39:43.777 you just want the voice SDK or it's like to have to like dig into this low level 00:39:43.787 --> 00:39:46.287 stuff, um, doesn't make a lot of sense. 00:39:46.287 --> 00:39:49.887 And maybe an SDK from us can also be used as a reference for people 00:39:49.887 --> 00:39:53.387 to implement their own SDKs or whatever that might look like. 00:39:53.387 --> 00:39:53.747 So, 00:39:54.147 --> 00:39:54.547 CJ: Yeah. 00:39:55.387 --> 00:39:56.937 Are you writing it with Ruby or 00:39:57.477 --> 00:39:58.387 Colin: It's a JavaScript. 00:39:58.507 --> 00:39:59.107 CJ: JavaScript? 00:39:59.177 --> 00:40:00.117 Okay, cool. 00:40:00.907 --> 00:40:05.437 Yeah, the gosh, just working with any kind of sockets is yeah, it's 00:40:05.437 --> 00:40:08.747 always a little bit harder than I expect once I first get into 00:40:09.557 --> 00:40:09.867 Colin: Yeah. 00:40:10.197 --> 00:40:15.137 Well, and you're getting into also like moving into Opus streams and 00:40:15.147 --> 00:40:18.627 Aug streams and all these different like audio formats that we don't 00:40:18.627 --> 00:40:21.207 necessarily use on our computers. 00:40:21.207 --> 00:40:25.127 And so then I have to like export it to either Aug or mp3 so I can listen to it. 00:40:25.577 --> 00:40:28.477 And then I could, what was nice is that I'll be like, okay, export this. 00:40:28.807 --> 00:40:30.297 And it's like, yeah, this file's corrupt. 00:40:30.297 --> 00:40:31.467 You're like, okay, something's not right. 00:40:32.157 --> 00:40:32.447 CJ: Right. 00:40:33.777 --> 00:40:34.287 Yeah. 00:40:34.397 --> 00:40:35.117 Interesting. 00:40:35.467 --> 00:40:35.717 Yeah. 00:40:35.727 --> 00:40:40.797 One thing that was kind of Tricky about the 11 labs integration, not 00:40:40.797 --> 00:40:44.727 necessarily tricky, but like, eh, I don't think they have a Ruby library. 00:40:44.757 --> 00:40:50.017 And so they just, you give them like an HTTP request with text, and then they 00:40:50.017 --> 00:40:52.847 just dump back like the audio in binary. 00:40:53.367 --> 00:40:56.857 And so, or whatever, like it comes back as just like, you 00:40:56.857 --> 00:40:58.727 know, unreadable blob of whatever. 00:40:59.117 --> 00:41:02.027 And so then I was like, I don't know, let's see if we write this to a file. 00:41:02.027 --> 00:41:05.427 Like if that ends up working and it just magically was like, cool. 00:41:05.467 --> 00:41:08.157 And then I was like, okay, now let's upload it to active storage. 00:41:08.207 --> 00:41:08.617 Boom. 00:41:08.637 --> 00:41:10.992 It just kind of like that part. 00:41:11.392 --> 00:41:15.102 I was surprised at how, how sort of a straightforward that part was, but, 00:41:15.907 --> 00:41:20.657 Colin: I mean, You're not far from being able to take that story, getting 00:41:20.657 --> 00:41:24.057 the binary, and then you can broadcast it out to ice cast or something. 00:41:24.057 --> 00:41:25.587 And now you've got live stream. 00:41:25.962 --> 00:41:28.722 CJ: yeah, gosh, that's interesting. 00:41:28.892 --> 00:41:29.542 Oh man. 00:41:29.672 --> 00:41:30.132 Okay. 00:41:30.292 --> 00:41:30.672 Yeah. 00:41:31.532 --> 00:41:34.572 But yeah, along that path, I was, I was similarly like, how 00:41:34.572 --> 00:41:35.932 the hell do you debug this? 00:41:35.932 --> 00:41:36.102 Right? 00:41:36.122 --> 00:41:38.912 Like you're getting back something and like, you just have to know 00:41:38.912 --> 00:41:42.372 that, oh, that's an MP3 file that I need to store somewhere. 00:41:43.107 --> 00:41:46.157 Colin: I have been using chat GPT to try to debug some of this stuff. 00:41:46.157 --> 00:41:49.317 And I mean, it was kind of cool how normally we're used to getting texts 00:41:49.317 --> 00:41:53.677 back and there's these things called RTP headers that you have to add to the front 00:41:53.737 --> 00:41:56.127 of your packets when you send the audio. 00:41:56.782 --> 00:42:01.362 Like, it, like created this like visual representation of what an RTP header was. 00:42:01.362 --> 00:42:04.482 And I, I was mostly using it to be like, okay, I don't understand what this 00:42:04.482 --> 00:42:06.912 header's for, what is it comprised of? 00:42:07.352 --> 00:42:09.512 You're setting a lot of different bits and things. 00:42:09.517 --> 00:42:11.102 And so I was like, explain this to me. 00:42:11.162 --> 00:42:12.662 Okay, explain it to me like I'm 10. 00:42:13.042 --> 00:42:15.952 Explain it to me like I've never written code before. 00:42:15.952 --> 00:42:18.022 And it was pretty useful for that. 00:42:18.072 --> 00:42:20.952 You know, you still gotta check your homework and say like, 'cause half 00:42:20.952 --> 00:42:22.422 the time it's like, oh, you need this. 00:42:22.422 --> 00:42:24.312 And then I'm like, the docs say we don't need this. 00:42:24.312 --> 00:42:25.272 And it's like, oh, I'm sorry. 00:42:25.887 --> 00:42:26.177 Right. 00:42:26.207 --> 00:42:29.437 And thankfully these docs, I think, were, have not changed 00:42:29.447 --> 00:42:31.147 since before the cutoff window. 00:42:31.777 --> 00:42:34.237 Which I think we talked about on the show where the cutoff window was 00:42:34.237 --> 00:42:36.177 gone and I still see a cutoff window. 00:42:36.177 --> 00:42:38.447 So I don't know how that works to you. 00:42:39.132 --> 00:42:43.972 CJ: I think you have to enable Bing search maybe or something like in, in 00:42:43.982 --> 00:42:49.252 like the pro GPT four dropdown, there's like four options now or something or they 00:42:49.252 --> 00:42:52.402 have, I don't know if you have to enable them or plug plugins in or something, 00:42:52.402 --> 00:42:54.862 but there's like the Bing search thing. 00:42:54.922 --> 00:42:58.412 I think that's part of it, but they also have like different models that 00:42:58.422 --> 00:43:00.012 have cutoffs at different dates. 00:43:00.542 --> 00:43:06.482 But man, I would say over the last two weeks, it's been less valuable. 00:43:07.242 --> 00:43:10.302 Like, I feel like the quality of the responses I've gotten over the 00:43:10.302 --> 00:43:15.042 last, definitely the last week is way lower than it was before that. 00:43:15.072 --> 00:43:19.472 And I don't know if they changed something, but I'm like, this response 00:43:19.482 --> 00:43:21.392 that you just said makes no sense at all. 00:43:21.452 --> 00:43:23.542 And it is not going to be, 00:43:23.802 --> 00:43:24.592 Colin: of the internet. 00:43:26.174 --> 00:43:28.294 We should see if Cory Doctorow wants to come on our show. 00:43:28.814 --> 00:43:29.874 CJ: yeah, totally. 00:43:31.624 --> 00:43:33.414 Colin: If anyone knows Cory, hit us up. 00:43:33.644 --> 00:43:34.414 We should reach out. 00:43:34.714 --> 00:43:37.614 I mean, he's on a podcast tour right now talking about this 00:43:37.614 --> 00:43:40.464 and it's top of mind for sure. 00:43:40.864 --> 00:43:41.444 CJ: let's do it. 00:43:43.104 --> 00:43:44.124 Should we wrap there? 00:43:44.324 --> 00:43:47.144 Colin: I think that's, A full featured podcast. 00:43:47.374 --> 00:43:47.994 CJ: There you go. 00:43:49.804 --> 00:43:52.684 Colin: This was not generated automatically by Eleven Labs. 00:43:52.684 --> 00:43:55.244 This is, these are, we confirm humanity. 00:43:55.579 --> 00:44:00.519 CJ: Yeah, that's this is our watermark of H generated, not C generated or something. 00:44:01.024 --> 00:44:04.644 Colin: all of our, all of our quips and, and weird vocal tics 00:44:04.644 --> 00:44:06.034 and all, all, you get it all. 00:44:06.164 --> 00:44:06.534 So, 00:44:06.649 --> 00:44:07.179 CJ: Yes. 00:44:07.349 --> 00:44:07.819 Yes. 00:44:08.749 --> 00:44:09.159 All right. 00:44:09.229 --> 00:44:11.399 As always, you can head over to buildandlearn. 00:44:11.399 --> 00:44:14.909 dev and check out the show notes that'll have links to all the 00:44:14.909 --> 00:44:16.539 resources and things we chatted about. 00:44:18.384 --> 00:44:19.194 Colin: we'll see you next time. 00:44:19.899 --> 00:44:20.539 CJ: See you next time. 00:44:20.709 --> 00:44:21.169 Bye friends.