Kristin Goodman

Show Notes

Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W
Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?
Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.

FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,

2 (16s):
We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all

1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.

2 (36s):
It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,

1 (41s):
But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.

2 (46s):
Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And

1 (1m 0s):
Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?

2 (1m 5s):
The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,

1 (1m 14s):
It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.

2 (1m 18s):
Yeah. What's the for you.

1 (1m 19s):
Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.

2 (1m 56s):
Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,

1 (1m 60s):
When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?

2 (2m 32s):
Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,

1 (2m 42s):
Yeah,

2 (2m 43s):
It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.

1 (2m 55s):
It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.

1 (3m 35s):
But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?

1 (4m 18s):
I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?

1 (5m 1s):
What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?

1 (5m 45s):
And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.

1 (6m 29s):
The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,

2 (6m 37s):
Wow. Oh,

1 (6m 38s):
Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.

1 (7m 19s):
It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,

2 (7m 28s):
That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is something about myself that I'd really like to change that because of my, the ways I've learned to cope.

2 (8m 10s):
I mostly feel at home when I'm by myself, which is not, it's not really the direction I want. It's not the thing. I want to be like fostering. I want to be fostering a feeling of being at home with the people that I love, instead of feeling afraid that the people I love, you know, can't help me. Can't take care of me. I have to take care of them.

1 (8m 32s):
Yeah. I think it is. I think it's, it's, it's right. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like wanting to be for me. Yeah. Wanting to also for my parents and my people. I loved in the past to take care of me and feel that sense of relief with them, but feeling the opposite and then finding a finally being like there is, and I feel like the people talk about this a lot in 12 step programs where it's like, I was, it's like, we're out of options. So like completely. So I don't like saying hit rock bottom all the time, because it was like the end. I will say the end of the road and payment, Pema, Chodron, you know, the Buddhist monk lady talks about this too.

1 (9m 15s):
Like nowhere else to go, like you're up against your shit. And there's literally nowhere else to run. And so that is like the worst moment. But then I think for me, the moment of admitting and, and saying, oh my God, I have nowhere else to go. I guess I'll surrender to this for me at that moment. In 2006, in may of 2006 or June, it was a day program at a hospital. But like, we can be anything that you just surrender and are like, I need help. Like I cannot, and I don't care where the help comes from necessarily. I'm not picky about it. I haven't had good insurance. So I went to a nice place, but it didn't have to necessarily be nice.

1 (9m 57s):
I was looking for the relief of the, the, the, the, the release of judgment in a group setting. So it could have been anywhere, but it happened to be a great hospital at the time. And so when it was so helpful that she asked me that question, because I was like, oh, I definitely didn't feel at home in my family. Right. So I didn't feel that. And I didn't feel, and I was thinking about the theater school and our podcast. There were moments where I felt at home within, I feel like for the theater school. And I don't know how you feel about this was sort of like a process of, for me feeling like stepping my toe in and feeling at home and then feeling no, not at home.

1 (10m 40s):
And then, so I didn't feel at home, like some people talk about like the drama club and their high school being a refuge and feeling at home. I never felt at home there. So, I mean, that was just a really, so it's a lot of intense stuff happening. I feel like for me and for the people that I love and know, and for me, it was really highlighted with this question, like, when do you feel at home?

2 (11m 4s):
Yeah. And I was like, right. Yeah. No, that's a very good question.

1 (11m 10s):
What about you like alone when you think of that you think of being by yourself?

2 (11m 17s):
Yeah. I mean, I have, I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's my fault, but I have perpetuated, let's say the dynamic wherein I feel alone and nobody can help me because of whatever. I'm not letting them help me. Or I pick people who can't help me or whatever it is. And so I I'm constantly like reaffirming for myself. See, nobody cares about you. You know, you don't have any, like, all you can rely on is yourself. That's the really message that I find myself working really hard to defend and to re affirm.

2 (12m 0s):
And I really don't want to do that. And I'm not suggesting that, like, I, it may be, I need a big paradigm shift, but maybe it's really just this internal work of being like, maybe it just let go. Now, how about serenity right now? How about finding some little bit of peace right now? Instead of thinking when I get blank or when I do blank or when I am blank, it's, that's never, it never, they never comes. I mean, this is the thing that really characterize. I felt like my sister's life, she was, was always, and for her, it was always about money.

2 (12m 43s):
Once I get my little, you know, this amount of money together, then I will. And it was some form of like, then I'll be happy once I get this job that I'll be happy once I get this boyfriend. And then I'll be happy once I get, you know, and you could just do that for literally your whole life and never got there. And I feel like maybe I've been saying to myself, some type of thing like that, I feel superior in some way, because I have this understanding, but really I'm doing the same thing. I'm I'm in internally saying, well, when I find success as a writer or when whatever my kids are older or with, and this just, it just doesn't work like that.

2 (13m 26s):
Because when those things happen, there will just be other problems. Like there's no utopia. There's no like,

1 (13m 32s):
No. Okay. So like mile miles. And I always say like, the panacea isn't even a panacea. Like we thought, you know, him getting a full-time, it's just so amazing how it works. Like him getting a full-time job with all these bells and whistles and all things was going to be the panacea. Well, then it turns out that the, you know, like the paychecks way smaller, because all the full-time job you put into a 401k, you put into that dah, dah, dah, dah, you put, it's not the panacea that you, that it it's just, there is no panacea. Like, and I think that, that, that's what, you know, what the great teachers and stuff that I like say is like, there is nowhere to run. Like

2 (14m 12s):
You stop looking for the place that you gone to. Yeah.

1 (14m 16s):
There is no way or to run you're here. And I'm like, oh my God. And, and I think there was a freedom in that, but with it being for me, but for the freedom, just like before I stepped into the rooms, stepped into the room of my day program, there was a constant fighting of trying to survive and trying to keep going the way I had been going, which was pretending to be fine and pretending to keep it all together and pretending to be whatever, you know, what my mom and my sister needed me to be. My dad was dying and I, for better, for worse. Like, I, I, I literally something cracked.

1 (15m 2s):
And I literally was like, oh, like I talked to the, I remember talking to the intake person and being an, even them just asking me like, what's going on, you know? And I just lost it. And they were like, okay, we'll see you at one eight, 1:00 PM. We'll see you in.

2 (15m 20s):
Right, right. Yeah. For me, the, for me, I really haven't figured out the difference between pretending and like a more healthy acting as if like, okay, it's not great, but I'm going to kind of go along as if it were, I, I really don't have a very good distinction in my mind between when I'm intentionally employing faking it till I make it versus I'm just pretending I'm telling everybody that I'm fine when I'm really not. Like, I haven't figured that out for myself.

2 (16m 1s):
I haven't figured it out. Maybe I haven't like, I don't, maybe I just haven't let myself get there. I don't know whether

1 (16m 10s):
I also don't think. I think again, like I was thinking about like, in the process of feeling at home, and again, I think it's an, it's an, it's a fucking process of yes. And like, sometimes I'm pretending and sometimes I'm doing vacant it till I make it, which is healthy. And sometimes it's just, I don't think for me, it's like, I got part of growing up, obviously in an alcoholic home is like the black and white thinking. Right. So it's like all or nothing. Like I have to be a total mess all the time and that's fine. And that's embraceable, or I have to be like stoic and I can, and I think some days for me is like, I'm able to really embrace the fake it till you make it in a healthy way.

1 (16m 54s):
And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the things, walk the dog, do the, did a bit, a bit of it. And some days are just like, oh my God, I can't. But it's, yeah. It's figuring out which days are, which, and also, especially, you know, their shit to be done. Like if <em></em> especially as seriously. And I, I mean, I don't mean to say this as like, but especially as parents, like there is shit to be done. I'm a dog owner, their shit to be done. So can imagine parents, if, if we parents are completely responsible for the wellbeing of their children and we know my parents didn't do a great job, they did the best they could. It wasn't good enough.

1 (17m 34s):
So like, there is a real thing about like, people depend on us to do shit. And so there is this

2 (17m 42s):
And you, you may not have kids, but you have that with, I mean, a lot of people rely on you at various times for various reasons. So really it's the same thing.

1 (17m 52s):
You can call me a people pleaser. There's also a thing of like, you, people I can call myself or other people can call me a codependent people pleaser, but the lady in the diaper still needs to go to the bathroom. So like, am I going to let her eat it? You know what I mean? Like, there's work to be done. I can't always do the work, but I think there's a part of me. And this is in my DNA. That's like, if a person is suffering and I can help not kill myself, but if I can help, then I do feel like it's my duty to help the lady go to the bathroom like that. I just, and so, you know, and there's people that are like, oh, you, you know, there's, we love to tell people, especially women, you're doing too much.

1 (18m 32s):
You need to do self care. You need to think about yourself. And I'm like, fuck you. You know what, I, I often can find that pretty like demeaning and also like angering, obviously, you know, anger comes up when people are like, this it's like the toxic positivity, but it goes beyond that. It's like toxic shaming for what we should be doing to take care of ourselves. Yeah.

2 (19m 0s):
Right. It's just the same thing as you know, is what it's purporting to be fighting against. Yeah. There's a lot of fine lines. I feel, I, you know, I think like the pendulum has really swung in terms of just having this conversation about self care. So, you know, I, I think it really does have to go that way before it can kind of shake out in the middle, but we are in this thing. I mean, for awhile, it was just probably so gratifying and in such a relief for people to be able to go online and see these positive messages and, you know, have these ideas introduced to them about taking care of yourself and having boundaries. But a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.

2 (19m 43s):
And you know, you can't go around calling everybody a malignant narcissist, and you can't go around saying that every time you want to do something you want it's, self-care, it's, you know, there's a lot of distinctions to be made here and, you know, and I'm there. And there's a lot of distinctions for me too. That's the phase of life I think I'm in right now, I'm trying to make some distinctions between, okay. So I'm not, I'm not just doing the whole reacting to everybody thing, which has defined my life up into very, you know, rather recently, but the answer is not to, just to go in the direction of whatever the opposite of that is.

2 (20m 24s):
The answer is to find the middle ground and people who are black and white thinkers, like me struggled to find the middle ground Conversation with somebody where I was complaining that this person who I pay, not a therapist, but, you know, I pay to do something for me that I can't do for myself. You know, I was saying to this other person like that, this guy is not advocating for me and the person I was talking to said, nobody advocates for anybody.

2 (21m 5s):
There are no advocates. And I was like, Hmm, what is that true? I maybe, I mean, I, I really like, it kind of stumped me a little bit like, okay, there's no advocates, what does that mean? Is that

1 (21m 23s):
More, or no, you just left it at that.

2 (21m 29s):
Everything is, you know, I mean, I guess their point was like, everything is up to you, which is, you know, actually something I'm actively trying not to buy. I'm trying to buy into the idea that I am not in control of everything. Right. So

1 (21m 46s):
Was this person, well, I won't ask who this person is, but I will say that sounds like a lawyer.

2 (21m 54s):
Well, it sounds like a really dejected person, right? Like,

1 (21m 60s):
Or person talk like that a lot. Cause I know, cause I'm married to one and he doesn't go that route, which is why he was probably not a great lawyer, but in some ways, you know, but hearing him talk about lawyers, that's a very sort of lawyerly thing to do, which is there is no one on your side. Really. There is just you and your willingness to make your life work, make your shit work and to speak up for yourself. And no one really knows yourself like you, so you it's up to you. But it, for me, it really is a dangerous stance because it also, it also sort of makes me angry in that when I was a worked in social services, I was a huge advocate.

1 (22m 53s):
And sometimes people's only advocate now, did I do it perfectly? No. And like, did I actually make a difference? You could argue that in court either way, but like I was their advocate and I think they're our advocates, but I think there is something, there is some truth in the fact that like we have, we, we have to take care of our yeah, we, we have, we have to take

2 (23m 17s):
Care of ourselves and well, that's for sure. But that's for sure. I think

1 (23m 20s):
Our advocates look, there are fucking Abbey. If you look at like, yeah, there are advocates.

2 (23m 25s):
Well, that's the reason I wanted to run it by you because I think of you as an advocate, I think I've seen you advocate for people professionally and personally and in your career as a therapist and in your career as a friend and in career as a writer. Yeah. Yeah.

1 (23m 41s):
So I mean, and I think that I take great pride in that and it can lead to like, we're talking about like a lack, a lack of, I wouldn't even say self care, but I can get run down and tired as shit and exhausted. But I was just saying, as I was walking into the co-working space and I was talking to an unhoused guy and helping them out with something and giving them a code and blah, blah, blah, because I had the shit in my trunk. It wasn't like, you know, so I'm giving this stuff to it. And I thought, oh right. If, if being, I did say if being a helper makes me a people pleaser, then I think I'm just going to have to own that because I, I, I cannot stand, I believe by and watch as people suffer without, without trying, because I feel like then there's no.

1 (24m 33s):
Oh. And it comes down to this, like when I was in the, my worst place, people helped me. <em></em> that's the truth.

2 (24m 42s):
Yeah. And also let's be clear. I mean, being a people, pleaser is only a problem. When, you know, a person is like subverting, their, all of their own wants and needs in any given situation for the, that's not, that's not any type of helping is not necessarily, you know, pathological.

1 (25m 3s):
Right. And I think it's really good. You said that because like in LA, there is this whole thing about like your, your people, like you go, you know, whatever, look out for number one, kind of a situation. And like, you don't have to be rescue anybody and everyone's, and I'm like, that's fine. But, and also what are you going to do when seriously, an unhoused encampment creeps up on your lawn then? So like all of this, we, we all do things for ourselves has helped us to get into this mess. So when there's an unhoused person living on your front lawn, tell me what, what, what do you suggest like, cause what we've been doing every man and woman for themselves, isn't quite working out for us. So like, mean

2 (25m 44s):
That they're not

1 (25m 45s):
At all. And there is a part of me and this is a larger conversation that, that we can have at another time. But like that does think that Hollywood, like the service component being of service is so lacking in this industry. There is no, at least in social services, like there is a service component. It may not go perfectly, but there is really no wing of Hollywood that is a service component or a helping component. Right.

2 (26m 17s):
If it is it's, it's tied up in a lot of like, people's vanity.

1 (26m 22s):
It's interesting to me. So I mean, you know, I, but yeah, I, I think that advocate that we, an ICU is, and I do, I see most parents that I respect and love also are advocates for their little people all the time, 24 7 with systems, with other people, with their families. It's like, so I think without advocates, we're fucked.

2 (26m 47s):
Absolutely. And, and you know, like maybe the answer when, when you, when anybody is looking at any situation and saying there's no, this, or there's only this, this all in all or nothing, black and white, that's really that's diagnostic like,

1 (27m 7s):
Right. I think anytime you're on a date, you meet a new friend you're interviewing for a job. If the person you're talking with is living in a black and white world where there is evil and good and dah, dah, dah, you're, you're an I'm in real trouble. Like, I don't think I can work with those people because even if they're fancy and pretty and cute and to, you know, I don't think it's going to work out just because then I'm going to fall into the camp of either I'm good or evil and that's going to switch,

2 (27m 36s):
Right. Yes. Because you can never just be one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Stop trying to everybody stop trying to make everybody else one thing or another

1 (27m 46s):
It's our brains that are trying to like put things into boxes, but it right, right. It really gets us into, into me anyway, into a shit ton of trouble with my marriage, with everything when I'm like, oh yeah, the dog can never go to the bathroom in the house again. Okay. Well, right. Like good luck with that. Like I, it doesn't work.

2 (28m 7s):
Oh, good luck to you on your journey with your perfectionist.

1 (28m 11s):
I mean yeah. If it would've worked, we would've really cornered the market on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Like if really, right. It's really just trying to do what other people wanted me to do and to, and to really have no voice worked. I would have been the best version of myself 20 years ago

2 (28m 33s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Kristin Goodman, Kristin trained as an actor, but she is also a director, a playwright, even it has a history as a comedy writer. She's a horse officio, natto and lives in New Mexico with her husband who is also an actor. And we had a really interesting conversation about gender in theater training. And she has some really interesting thoughts. So please enjoy our conversation.

0 (29m 1s):
Well,

2 (29m 22s):
Okay. Kristin Goodman, congratulations. You survived theater school to survive as an MFA. You did you study also theater in undergrads

1 (29m 33s):
And theater. I started out in biology.

2 (29m 37s):
Oh, wow. So you made a real left turn to get

4 (29m 41s):
My father basically. So said your dad's a scientist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but it wasn't for, you know, I failed constant. I was just, I failed biology twice. So I was like, Hmm. Maybe as a biology major, you fail. Yeah. I realized I wanted to play a biologist on TV. Yes.

2 (30m 5s):
Much more fun than actually being

4 (30m 7s):
A buyer. That was really where I was going to get to be a biologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so,

2 (30m 13s):
But ma you must've done theater or something like that in school to give you the idea that that was what you could switch into.

4 (30m 21s):
Honestly, when I was in high school, I took drama because my friends were in it and they said it was an easy grade. And so I did that. I was not good. There was no training in my school. Like it was like, you, you knew what theater was. I didn't. So like, I remember doing scene studies and I was like, oh, I have to learn my lines. Oh, so sorry. So I didn't have a clue, but my best friend at the time was working at a comedy club downtown in Austin. And so I started writing material with her. And so we would spend our weekends downtown on sixth street at this comedy club writing material and hanging out with like grown-ass adults and doing that.

4 (31m 9s):
So that's what I started to learn. Yeah. That's how I learned to write comedy. And then my government teacher, it was during the Bush to caucus run when they were running against each other. And he, he gave us some ideas. He was sort of a really great mentor. And so she and I did a Bush Dukakis debate in class where we personally did them. And so we just started writing comic material and doing that. Which one were you? I was Bush. Yeah. I wish we had video, man. I would say. And then later, like that summer he was teaching summer school and he said, can you guys do this debate for my summer school class?

4 (31m 55s):
We were like, sure. Why not figure we go into a classroom. It was like an assembly of like all the kids who hadn't passed certain that, and they were laughing their butts off. So it was sort of, I was like, oh, this feels good. I like this. And then I went to a women's college where it was liberal arts school and I was still studying biology. But my second year there, I took a theater film class. And that was what made me go, oh, oh, I was taking photography. I was doing arts. You know, I was drawing, I was just doing that kind of side. But then when I transferred to university of New Mexico, I was going to go to photography program and I walked into the theater section and I just started wandering the halls and it wound up in the Dean's office and she ha she's smoking Capri cigarettes.

4 (32m 48s):
She's like coming up set am, what do you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm going to be a playwright. And she was like, all right, let's sign you up. So she signed me up and I transferred into there and I had Mac Wellman was one of my instructors. And he's extra crone from the Venezuela and Digby Wolfe who wrote for Laugh-In. Yeah. So, but ultimately I changed my degree to acting because I'm a horror for attention. And people kept telling me I was a really good actor. And I was like, really? They were like, yeah, you should be an actor. And so I just went into acting instead took me awhile.

2 (33m 29s):
That's that's not typical that you would that a person. I mean, in terms of the people that we've interviewed, starting as a writer, going to be an actor and now returning to writing among other things. So you didn't ultimately find acting that fulfilling or

4 (33m 46s):
Acting was I loved rehearsal. I loved figuring out the characters and playing once it got to performance, it was, it just, I didn't, I'd never understood the crossover. I never, I didn't nobody ever talked to me about, well, you can keep playing. It was about the product that everybody kind of pushed and I felt too much pressure and it just too much anxiety. And I was kind of miserable every time. Yeah. Very miserable.

5 (34m 23s):
That crossed my mind. When you were talking about writing in Austin, I'm like you that's the makings of a Saturday night live writer like that. A lot of, did you ever think about like, doing that? Cause I'm like, fuck, if you were writing as if you were a teenager, right. Would you ever be like, I want to write for so, cause that's what I was like, she should have room for Saturday.

4 (34m 48s):
Yeah. I didn't, it never occurred to me. I didn't, I was very, I was just, I was so confident in everything that I did that I never could discern what was, what I really wanted to do. And at my parents was pretty absent. So, you know, going into theater, I also had, when I got after my second year at this women's college, I went back to Austin for the summer. And I Reno, there's a comedian performance artist from New York named Karen Reno. And she was workshopping a one-woman show called Reno and rehab, something like that, or out of rehab or something like that.

4 (35m 30s):
And Evan, you knew LIS was the director. She had come out of New York also and she needed an assistant. So I got that gig working for her. And her producer was Chula Reynolds, who was Ann Richards campaign manager. And so I was hanging out with them all summer and working and at the end of that run or that workshop, Chula and Evan and Karen took me to lunch and said, you need to decide what you're doing because you're interested in politics. You're interested in entertainment. What do you want to be behind the camera in front of the camera? And they were just like, you need to focus, get your shit together.

4 (36m 10s):
So these very powerful, strong women basically were like, smacking me upside head saying, you don't know what you're doing, but you need to do you have an idea? So like, let's help her. So that was kind of the catalyst to me going. I think that's what clicked when I walked into that Dean's office was right. This is what I want to do. I don't want to be a photographer. I don't want to be a biologist. All these, you know,

2 (36m 38s):
Why do you think it was you? You said, because I was so confident in so many things. I had a hard time figuring it out, but is that really what it was? I mean, looking at your, with your adult eyes now, is it that you were just good at a lot of things? And so, or was it, did it have something to do more with figuring out what other people?

4 (36m 59s):
Yeah, probably absolutely. I thought it was confidence. So it was more about being confident that I could fulfill that for other people and for myself, instead of really hearing my own voice and hearing like what made me excited to wake up and work and do, regardless of the outcome,

5 (37m 23s):
Did you, did you, when you had that sort of talk with those women, how old

4 (37m 27s):
Were you? I was 19.

5 (37m 30s):
Holy shit. And did you keep in touch with them?

4 (37m 33s):
I did with Karen Reno for quite some time. And I just reconnected with Evan briefly on like LinkedIn, but not much after that, you know, when you're that young, you're just sort of like flying through the atmosphere, trying to grab on to anything that like feels good or, yeah,

5 (37m 55s):
I'm just so like in all the fact that they sat you down and believed enough in you, or I don't know what their motivation was, but it sounds to me like they fucking gave a sh you know, the game of shit to sit down with you at 19. I wish some also you were like assisting at 19 on a professional. I mean, that is, did you have over responsible as a kid or how did 19? I was like dating skateboarders and drinking. How did you end up seeing, so it's such like a go getter, kind of a gal.

4 (38m 29s):
Well, my dad he's German and he learned how to parent in the bootcamp and the Navy. And then, you know, we always, I always had horses and so I was always, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't watching Saturday morning cartoons, you know, I was outside and I was working and there were chores and it was so responsibility was something that I kind of was innately built into my, whether I liked it or not.

2 (38m 60s):
Yeah. So you mentioned horses and that's been a big part of your life, including you trained animals for film or

4 (39m 9s):
So when we move to was a ringleader, we moved to Los Angeles. I still had my salary from the Chicago college performing arts, where I was an associate acting professor. So I had that for the summer and then I needed to make money. And we were living right in Hollywood and up the road was a little boarding, stable, like sort of outfitter for like trail rides. And my friend who I wrote comedy with at, in Austin, she was living there and she said, oh, you should go up there because they have horses. And so we went up there and I S then they were looking for a manager, like an office manager.

4 (39m 49s):
So I went up there and started working for them. And as time went on, I was teaching horseback riding lessons to just your average Joes or actors who needed it, I would take like celebrities on rides and stuff and do that, which was super weird and interesting, but it was great

5 (40m 13s):
Intimate. Like when I've done horseback riding, when I did like a trail ride, it was just me in California and the trail guide. And it's an intimate thing to be on a horse with just it's quiet except for the horses. So like, was it like intimate? Did you talk to these people and get to know like how

4 (40m 33s):
Sure. Yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. And you kind of, there was really nobody that I was, I mean, there were big, big name people, but nobody that I was like, oh my God. Like I, but I couldn't handle talking to at that point. I think, especially when you're the Wrangler, you know, you've got a responsibility and so they're, they're automatically sort of listening to you. So you kind of have a leg up and it's not about them being famous. It's about them being like, please, I don't want to die. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.

2 (41m 13s):
Not many people I don't imagine are in the position of, in that situation, training an actor, a trait, a horse, having expertise in both their area and yours. Did that come up in conversation with, with the people that you were working with and if it did, did it help

4 (41m 30s):
You do your job? Absolutely. Because if you understand how to maintain your objective and under, and stay in your character and be confident on the horse, then you're doing a good job. If, if you're freaking out about the horse, you're never gonna sell that. You're whoever you're supposed to be on that horse. So, yeah. Yeah.

2 (41m 52s):
It's an acting. I mean, I've never ridden a horse, but I'm kind of hearing you say, like, everybody needs to do a certain amount of acting on a horse because you have to project a kind of conscious

4 (42m 2s):
Oh yeah. And you can tell, I mean, my God, you can tell when you're like, oh, that person's should have taken some lessons before they plop them on that horse. The amount of people that get on horses and movies that aren't well-trained enough and do stuff astounds me, like astounds me, but

5 (42m 25s):
Dangerous for everybody involved. Right. The horse, the human, the whole, I just have this really a lot of respect for you in terms of, I mean, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the horses. When I have been on a horse, the experience has been show intense. And so tra I had to trust, I've never had to trust anything that was alive. As much as I trusted being on that horse, you know, on a plane, it's like a horse. I was like, oh, Tammy was her name. And I said, Tammy, you, me and you, we're gonna, we're gonna get through this. And she was amazing, but like, it's, it's, it's a real, and they're huge. Like you don't think, oh, of course you're like, it's a huge animal.

5 (43m 8s):
And anyway, I think that that part is fascinating. Are you still doing, you have your New Mexico? Do you have horses and do you train them? Do you?

4 (43m 16s):
I do well last October we bought a horse property and moved to it. So I have five horses. Yeah. That's so cool. It's pretty great. It really, I did it. I did it for myself, but I ultimately did it for my daughter because she wanted a horse and it was during that pandemic, the beginning. And I was just kind of watching her just slowly getting more and more enclosed. And I was like, no, this isn't. So when I found the property and we decided to do it, you know, now her window overlooks, like are our nine acres and the barn.

4 (43m 58s):
And she gets, you know, she finished schoolwork yesterday and she just ran out there and rode two of her horses and spent the whole day down there. So

2 (44m 8s):
That's fantastic. That's very special thing you're

4 (44m 11s):
Providing for her. It's pretty satisfying.

2 (44m 14s):
So getting back to the theater school. So you did, you did theater in undergrad, but how did that compare to DePaul and doing the MFA and having this very intense acting program?

4 (44m 29s):
It was not even close. You know what, by the time I graduated, I didn't from undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing. I still, which is why I went to grad school. I was like, I can't go out there. I, what the hell I'm doing? Because I spread myself with the playwriting and then into the acting. And I just felt like I hadn't experienced or had the amount of, yeah. I just felt not prepared. And there was a friend who Eli had gone to school with at DePaul who was there at UNM for the graduate directing program. So he was like, you should audition for DePaul.

4 (45m 9s):
And so I auditioned for three schools and DePaul was one of them. And then I got in and it was, yeah, it was a really big wake up call for someone who I hadn't had a lot of movement. You know, the most dance I had done was I did flamenco because I was at UNM and they had like the best program. So I was like, well, that's what I'm going to do, but it doesn't really prepare you for movement on stage, in a very fluid way, but it helped. I'm sure it helped. And I hadn't had the Linklater. I hadn't had the, you know, the, just the training that I wound up with.

4 (45m 54s):
So it was, it was intense for me, very intense. It was a lot. It was it intense for you emotionally or just in terms of like acquiring a new set of skills socially? Not socially, but emotionally and like, yeah, physically acquiring all those skills and connecting all the dots and really just me with all my like guards up and all the, I really didn't know how to play. Honestly, I didn't grow up playing. I grew up working and so playing, you know, when I worked at the comedy place in Austin, that was playful, but I didn't equate the two for some reason.

4 (46m 37s):
And so when I got to DePaul and you know, Rick Murphy's asking me to play, I could improv because I had been an improv group in undergrad and I had done all that stuff before I got there. In fact, the, the MF, the guy that was there for a master's program, he started this improv group. So he taught me everything. Rick had taught him. Oh. So by the time I got to DePaul, I knew how to do everything. Rick was teaching. So I had fun, but I was still, I guess the biggest thing was I was so aware of how much money it was costing and how a debt I was going, that there was a side of me that was like, I better be good, like this better work.

4 (47m 19s):
And there was a lot of pressure to like, be an and learn and evolve into something that was going to pay off for me. And I think it kind of hampered my playfulness in some ways.

5 (47m 35s):
It's interesting. I mean, I think that that is so, and you could talk about this too, cause you're on sets now, but like this it's, it's the sense of place. I mean, I think that's maybe what I'm talking about about the heart, the schism that exists between when we're, when we're told to be playful, especially like in a Rick Murphy kind of a way, and really have a sense of, of, of joy about the work. But then there, there comes a transition where it's not play at all. It's like serious business. And I don't think I ever knew how to mix the two and that's why my acting isn't good. Like really, like, I don't know. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I don't think I ever learned how to bring the joy back to set.

4 (48m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's

5 (48m 22s):
That I'm like, oh yeah, I never have fun on set. I always feel like I'm going to die. So like, but I didn't feel like that class.

4 (48m 29s):
I didn't feel that way in Murphy's class either. I saw it all around me. And when, when I, when the third year when we were mixed with the undergrads is when I really became aware. Because as a graduate student, you know, your acting professor could say something to you that was kind of shitty. And you could say, oh, go fuck yourself. Like, cause you're like, you know, I'm 22 years old, go fuck off. Like yeah. You know, and, and they would be like, oh, and you would be like, well, no, seriously go fuck off. Like, I don't need that. It still hurt. But you didn't, you didn't have that.

4 (49m 12s):
You know, when you're an undergrad, what I noticed the undergrads was it was, it was really, it could be very intense. And what I really thought, what I really noticed in the undergrads was the difference between the experience of the women were having an experience that men were having. I really felt like the women were pitted against each other or they were, or just in general society, that's what was happening. So there was so much competition between the women that it was agonizing to watch my friends, like, like just sobbing and bathrooms and like hating each other and not being supportive of one another and really like taking out their own insecurities on each other.

4 (50m 0s):
And when I saw the, the males that were an undergrad, there was just sort of like, Hey, that's great. I'm so glad you got that part. I wish I got it. Let's go have fun anyway. And it was just like, what are they giving them? What's going on?

5 (50m 15s):
And you had gotten to an all women's college, right? So like you,

4 (50m 20s):
I knew what w women were like, and it wasn't like that at the women's college that I was at the liberal arts school. I mean, it was very supportive and, you know, people do shitty stuff, but nothing where it was like, you were trying to con you were, you weren't competing with the other person. But I, I witnessed a lot of that just as an upper, you know, a graduate student watching the undergrads, really just squabbling for parts and not

5 (50m 53s):
That's quick. It's so interesting. And also, I'm just thinking of our interview with, with John who can Acker and Dave , who were competing all the time and yet loved, managed to love the shit out of each other as they went through and their relationship only grows stronger and stronger. And then you turn and there's women that started out being friends and at the end of undergrad, hated each other and never talked to each other. Again, it was still such a different, I never dawned on me, never Dawn on me until you said that, that there could be that disparity between discrepancy and, and, and

4 (51m 29s):
It was a very different experience for women. I felt, and I don't know what it's like now, but, but I, it was, it was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch

2 (51m 40s):
Also thinks that that was true for the MFA program that, that, that, no.

4 (51m 45s):
Okay. Not in my experience.

2 (51m 49s):
So then what did you like, what did you do with that awareness at the time? Did you talk to anybody about it or were you just kind of like, Ooh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole.

4 (51m 59s):
I don't think I had the wherewithal to really recognize it. I just kind of saw it and steered clear of it. I mean, there were some graduate student, friends of mine that did get into that mix where they would start to bad mouth, another actress, or talk about how it wasn't fair or, you know, that kind of a thing. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't stick my toe in it. There was a really nice moment, like toward the end, very end of my time there, when we were in scene study class with Mike Maggio, and I remember two of my friends were up there acting, and it was sort of a train wreck.

4 (52m 42s):
And he was like, let's just come in. We'll just sit down and talk. I don't know if you were in this class, Jen, but he goes, he gathered everybody around. He was like, eat, you guys know that nobody's going to die. Right? Like that, this is just a play. This is not life and death. You can have fun up there and nobody's going to die. Are we, are we all in agreement with that? And I was like, thank you. Somebody finally said it.

5 (53m 11s):
What a relief.

4 (53m 12s):
Yeah. And everybody was kind of just staring at him like what? And I was like inside my head, just thinking, God, thank God. Somebody finally said this to these people because it was

5 (53m 25s):
So interesting because he was the one really closest to death in terms of his physical

4 (53m 30s):
Life. So he knew like, look, this is play. Like, why aren't you enjoying yourself?

5 (53m 37s):
My God.

2 (53m 38s):
Yeah. Yeah. There was just such a, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on here. There was just such a preciousness that the, that the, I think I'm trying to unpack, like why, why was it like this? And I think one part of it could be that the R the undergrad professors really took consultants quite seriously and talked about, I think what they were trying to do was talk about the craft in a way that engendered, you know, reverence from the students. But it wasn't articulated enough to say that you could step out of that at times.

2 (54m 18s):
You didn't always have to carry the mantle of like my crap, you know? And cause I just remember taking everything quite seriously.

4 (54m 29s):
Sure. Yeah. I would, I would, yeah, I did at times too. I mean, you know, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time would find me, like in my closet, crying, listening to Tori Amos really loud, you know, like, and he'd be like, are, are you okay? Like you just had to have an emotional outlet and

5 (54m 50s):
You feel supported like as a grad student or as a human that did you have like a circle of friends you felt supported there and like made good friends and like felt where I I'm like obsessed with this idea of feeling at home today. And like, did you feel at home amongst your people there?

4 (55m 8s):
Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a different experience in that I had this boyfriend, so I kind of had this life outside of the school, whereas other people were going to parties and they were hooking up and they were experimenting. And I wasn't part of that social circle, but I felt supported by my friends. So I didn't, you know, if they weren't supportive, I had no idea, but more often than I felt supported, you know, I, I remember after like our first intro, we were doing that, David Hare play that I hate so much. I can't remember the name of it.

4 (55m 48s):
Yeah. I think it's skylight. Ugh, that frigging thing. And I, we finished like the second performance or something and we were cleaning up the classroom and Murphy walked up to me and he goes, you, you got that. You got that monologue finally. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, the second one though, it's still aren't there. And Tisha was standing next to me. She goes, would you shut the fuck up? Leave her the fuck alone. What's wrong with you? And he was like, oh. And she was like, give her a fucking break. I was like, yeah, give me a break.

4 (56m 28s):
I'm working here. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But oh, that's great. So we did do that for each other and we did like stick up for each other because we, you know, when you're at that point and you know, I don't know about the undergrads, but all the grad students were paying for their way. Like there was no doubt everybody was paying their way. So you kind of had, you felt valid in saying, you know what? I don't need that I'm paying you. We thought they were, are supposed to be our parents and you didn't right. Oh God. Yeah. They were, they were, are equals to a certain degree. We felt. And so when, when these conversations would come up, at least from my perspective, I don't know if other grad students felt this way, but you know, I had a couple of really good friends who were really talented, who just left.

4 (57m 17s):
They're like, nah, I'm not going to do this. And you know, they have, they have a great life. I'm still in touch with them. And I think that you kind of have to want to be stripped down. You, you kinda have to want to have your ego dismantled to see what's underneath it. And, and I think that as actors want that writers kind of want that to find out what's in there. And so I think there was something to what they were doing that was really beneficial. My big thing that I think all conservatives, all conservatory training programs should have because of my experience in my third year, there would be that you need to have some kind of, they teach you how to get into character.

4 (58m 3s):
They teach you how to use things from your emotional life and PO so that you can just jump right in, but they don't teach you how to take it out. There's no decompression. Like they don't put you through. They don't have a technique and the tools for you to like release it. So when my third play that from my, my last year there, I did all the last three shows I did at victory gardens. Right. At one fleece, you were brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I went really, I went from one flea spare right into, I got the blues. It didn't have a break.

4 (58m 43s):
And I started having panic attacks at dress rehearsal for, I got the blues. That was my first panic attack was onstage dress rehearsal. I got the blues and Hoka knocker was sitting across from me and I was talking. And then all of a sudden I just stopped talking and I was very aware of the exit sign. I was very aware of like where I was, except I thought I feel so different. What's going on? And Hogan lockers, just looking at me. And he said, as said something else to me. And he said something else to me. And all of a sudden, I just started talking again and we're back. But after that, I was like, I'm not doing this. I can't, I'm not, can't go on stage again.

4 (59m 24s):
So I had to manage panic attacks all through that run. And then

5 (59m 31s):
How did you do it? Did you get help?

4 (59m 34s):
Eli's uncle's a psychologist in Chicago. So he got me some Klonopin. Great. And I was able to do every single show and every single night, Lisa volt would have to push me on stage. Like she would stand right behind me and just push me. And then I would just go into auto drive, complete auto drive. And it was, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I probably could have done a better job in that play, but I was definitely on auto-drive, you know, I was like,

5 (1h 0m 8s):
Yeah, I, you know, I S I started having panic attacks at my fourth year in DePaul or 30 or DePaul two. And I can't imagine, and I wasn't in a show. It did, like I was in yellow bow, but then it ended and I had a break from it. But the fact that you were able to continue. Like now I look at, I watch performances since being, having an anxiety disorder and performers in a different way. Like being able to manage panic while being another character and remembering it is like, this is a miracle, it's a miracle to me so that you got through it. I don't give a shit if you didn't fucking Merrill.

5 (1h 0m 51s):
Holy shit. Holy shit. I think that's brilliant. And also afterwards, you must've been, how did you feel? Were you like, what the fuck was that?

4 (1h 0m 60s):
So I have panic attacks, you know, all through. I mean, I was just taking Clonopin. I was, when we went to LA for the showcase, I had to manage it, then that whole summer. And then I finally got therapy and the like 10th session with the therapist, we were going through my life, you know, then finally she said to me, tell me about the play before I got the blues. And that was one police bear. And I said, oh, so she's just telling me this story. Tell me about it. And I started, I started from the beginning, but what I realized, I mean, by the end, I was just sobbing. I was a disaster. What I realized was I, I didn't know the difference in my brain between what Naomi had written and what I had created for my character.

4 (1h 1m 48s):
It was just a whole life that I created inside of myself. And that had things that I had created. So they were mine. And that play is a woman who's scarred from the neck down, from a fire, from saving her horses and her husband who won't touch her and this little girl. And, you know, there's the plague. And in the end, the little girl helps her kill herself with a knife. And then they shroud me and the Matt who was playing my husband and we're dead. And then Dave, who played the guard has this big monologue where he walks in front of us and he loved that monologue. And it took a while.

4 (1h 2m 33s):
Yeah. Day one thinking about me, like in a corset, under a blanket, try not to breathe, you know, he was performing. So that whole time I was just repressing, repressing, repressing all these emotions after killing myself on stage. And then I would go off stage and just breathe and then go on with my day. So when I started rehearsals for, I got the blues, it just stayed repressed. And then when I had my first panic attack, it was things like, I didn't want to be near knives. I kept thinking about why do I keep thinking about killing myself? Like there were all these things that I just hadn't added up with the fact that I had created a whole life and I'd done a good job from all my training.

4 (1h 3m 16s):
Like all that recall. And, you know, being able to walk on stage and have this whole history and this moment that it happened off stage, it worked, it all worked. It was all great technique. But again, nobody taught us how to compress all that shit. How do you get all that out of you so that you can move on to the next character or on with your life without carrying around with you,

2 (1h 3m 40s):
Right? Yeah. And this has come up a lot on the podcast and sometimes we've done this, I'll do it with you. Let's do a thought experiment about if we could have dictated the terms of that rehearsal process for you and somebody could teach you how to unpack decompress, what would it look like? Would it look like somebody on staff? Like, would it be sort of like having an AED, but maybe somebody who's trained in?

4 (1h 4m 8s):
I think someone who's either trained in trauma or mental health because every, I mean, every great play has conflict. Every, every story has conflict. So there's going to be trauma. And how are you going to find that within yourself, you're going to go to that place that has trauma in you to access that vulnerability. Right? So if you have somebody on staff, who's either trained in somatic movement, something that like you can like, then they take the actress from that play. And they do two days of movement to release all this stuff out of their bodies. Since DePaul was all movement, like it was all about the physical actor.

4 (1h 4m 49s):
So how do you let it out of yourself physically when you've been taught to put it in physically? I think that would benefit actors tremendously. And if they're trained in trauma, in mental health great too, but that they have to also be trained in some sort of physical outlet that helps you exercise that out.

2 (1h 5m 11s):
God, what if they had had something like, you know, followed in Christ love on technique? What if we, what have we integrated the study of that more with like helping ourselves in a practical way after rehearsal? Because even if it's not some big traumatic story, even if it's a children's story, it takes a toll, but this is something that I think people who aren't actors can't maybe wrap their heads around no matter what it is having to put yourself in a reliably, you know, heightened place, night after night or day after day as the case may be, is emotionally exhausting for everybody.

2 (1h 5m 53s):
No matter how much for how little trauma they have. Yeah.

5 (1h 5m 57s):
And you're moving, you see, like my panic is taxed started after I played a mother who lost her child to aids. Now I'm not saying that my real parents and my real childhood didn't, didn't start this whole process. But like that's when they started after that, right around that, and that intense experience with AF Kali who, you know, had his shit. And so it's just interesting. We never, and also the thing that we never talked about, that the, the movement part of it, the somatic part of it, I, I, I think you're right. I think it's not just about mental health. It's about the body releasing from the body, all the stuff.

5 (1h 6m 41s):
Oh, shit. That is some deep shit. Do you, do you use that with actors? Like when you're on set as a director or as a writer, what are your, are you conscious of that on your sets? Like about actors health and stuff, mental health and stuff like that?

4 (1h 6m 56s):
Absolutely. Oh sure. I mean, I opened a, okay. I just, when I just shot a short, that was a horror and the actress is she's, she's not as experienced as say we would have been coming from a conservatory, but she's been like taking lots of classes and stuff. And she's, I've watched her grow as an actress. And when I cast her, you know, I told her a couple of times, like I said, remember, this is film. I don't, you don't have to feel anything in these spots. I don't, I just need the shot. If you feel it, that's fine.

4 (1h 7m 37s):
But I'm, you don't have to go to a really dark, dark place because technically I'm going to grab what it is I need just from the look in your eye. So just remember, I don't need you to go really deep in all these sections and horrify yourself. And then I said, you know, make sure that you write out everything on a piece of paper afterward and release it so you can let it go. And she took it very seriously. She was, she really did her work and she gave a great performance. Also I directed a play a couple of years ago where it was two actors in there onstage the whole time. And it's very intense. And the male lead key, I mean, so confident, like just working his butt off opening night or the kind of gala night when the playwright had flown in and all these important people were there, the actress was like, Krista, come in here.

4 (1h 8m 37s):
And I went into the theater and she's like, he, he said he can't do it. He can't do it. He's freaking out. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went, I talked to him and he was like, I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm freaking out. I'm panicking. I'm losing my shit. You know, he's like a 50 year old man. He suddenly is having a panic attack. And I remembered, I got the blues and I remember all those feelings. And I said to him, you know what, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. I said, you tell me, I would tell them you have the flu. I would tell him you have diarrhea and vomit. And there's no way we can do this tonight. I was like, that's fine.

4 (1h 9m 16s):
You don't have to do it. He was like, are you sure? I was like, absolutely no, you don't have to do it. And I knew by saying that to him, it would drop him, drop his anxiety down tremendously because having someone sort of affirm that you're not crazy that there's nothing wrong with you, that the end of the world is not going to happen. If you don't do this play tonight. And I told him that I was like, what the fuck? Like I told him, I said, the playwright flew in. And he had like the gear landing thing that thought they were going to die. I was like, that's real. I was like, this isn't it's okay. I was like, he can watch it tomorrow or he doesn't get to see it, whatever.

4 (1h 9m 58s):
And he totally was, he was fine. And he went on.

2 (1h 10m 3s):
So this ties in so beautifully to the thing we were talking about before we started talking to you today, which is about advocacy and whether or not we were asking each other, whether or not we felt like we had advocates in our lives or whether we are advocates. And what I hear you saying both from, even if you weren't like getting involved in what was the theater school politics were even just, I'm going to make the argument that even just the fact that you were holding space for that idea and kind of that it, that you having this idea that it shouldn't didn't need to be that way for the women. No doubt had some lasting effect in the ether. That is it because of theater school is a very different place now in no small part, because of all the people who were willing to say, Hmm, I don't, I don't quite think this is right, but so you did that there.

2 (1h 10m 55s):
And then you did that with your actors, and I'm guessing you probably do that a lot with actors and it's like Africa. It, it never, I feel like there's this idea that if we are nice to actor, that, that, that we're not going to get a good product or there's some weird mythology about people needing to really suffer. And it doesn't actually work that way. That's some romantic idea that has never been

4 (1h 11m 21s):
True. Well, it's, it's a power thing. It's, you know, directors or acting teachers who enjoy the power. Maybe they're not even conscious of it, but it's like, you know, you've got a bunch of like Barbie dolls and you're just in control of them and you get to play with them. And I think that that kind of power is intoxicating. When I was an acting teacher at Chicago college, performing arts, I was keenly aware of the power I had and I was very uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it at all. I didn't. And I, but I learned from watching the undergrads at DePaul and watching the professors and how things were dealt with in certain ways. And just even my colleagues at the, at Roosevelt, I, you know, the students were getting mad at me because I wouldn't validate them.

4 (1h 12m 10s):
They'd be like, just tell me if I'm doing a good job. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. Because what I've learned is someone else is going to think you're doing a shitty job. So I would say, just do your job and enjoy doing your job. And if you're enjoying it and you're doing your work, that should be enough. I will give you direction. I will tell you where you need to look deeper. I will, I will give you what you need, but I will at no point tell you that. You're amazing. I also won't tell you that you're awful. And it was hard for them, but it, but it kept me from kind of drinking that Kool-Aid of like I was because they treated me, like you said, like parent, like, like I was suddenly their mom.

4 (1h 12m 58s):
And then the, the, the boys forget about it. You know, I was 30 years old. I was, they were like, oh my God, that's my teacher. And they were flirtatious. I mean, like beyond. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to like, keep that at bay. I had to like, because you were the adult. And I was like, oh, this is what's going on. These male professors don't get it. They think this is a real thing. Think that girl really is in love with him. No, she's just desperately looking for the comfort of a parent of a mentor, a validation of safety, all those things.

4 (1h 13m 46s):
And he fell, right. You know, they fall right into it thinking it's about them. And, you know, I just was like, I mean, I, it was dodging bullets left and right. And after three years of it, I was like, I can't, I can't do this. I don't like it. You know, unfortunately, as you know, you want people who don't like it to actually do it, that aren't going to get the power out of it. So showcase was a nightmare for you. You were dealing with panic attacks, but you moved to LA right after that, we stayed in Chicago after showcase because I went on to teach at Roosevelt and I acted in a lot of theater and yeah, I just acted a lot.

4 (1h 14m 30s):
I didn't do any directing except at Roosevelt. I directed shows for work, which was great because then I really started to learn that I wanted to do that and how to do that. And Mike Maggio was a very big influence for me. He was, he really took me under his wing and we would meet and talk about like, how, how you can, you know, we talk about like, how do you get, how do you create another step of Wolf? Is it possible? Is even, is it just sort of like, you know, lightning in a bottle and we'd have these great conversations about what I needed to be doing and where I should head. And he became a very close friend of mine and Elis.

4 (1h 15m 10s):
And so that was a very beneficial part of the theater school was sort of like taking that friendship and him very much saying like, you know, he's you the possibilities.

5 (1h 15m 22s):
And you did you in, in, in your showcase where you, like, I know you were dealing with panic and stuff like that, but did you enjoy your showcase? Was it a coming out for you? Did you feel at

4 (1h 15m 33s):
I kind, kinda, I just didn't have an expectation. I, you know, when we did the showcase in Chicago, I got an agent, so Todd Stewart signed me right then. And then when I got to LA, I just, I realized very quickly it wasn't the right monologue. I shouldn't have picked that monologue. I was on autopilot. I was just the, you know, cause of the panic attacks. But again, it was, the experience was watching the undergrads sort of implode on themselves. And I just was, it was so it was so sad. You know, I had, I had undergrads crying to me about how they hadn't gotten an agent or they weren't getting the attention they wanted without even considering I didn't get any either.

5 (1h 16m 27s):
Right. They parentified you.

4 (1h 16m 29s):
I mean, they, they, yeah. And I was like, what did you think? I just came here to shepherd. And I remember going to James hotel room and sitting down with her and I was like, Jane, what fuck? And she was like, I know it's just, it's a shit show. And I was like, this is horrible. I was like, these kids are freaking out. They're turning on each other they're friends. She was like, I know she goes, I can't control that. Like, that's just like, that's just, that's just how it always is. And I was like, well, it's horrible. And I want to go home. Like, this is awful. So again, I have to say, I mean, no disrespect to, to the dead, but like she could done something she probably could have.

4 (1h 17m 14s):
She just didn't have the tools. You know, she's a casting director. What the hell was she doing? Teaching at a school without having an understanding of really what teaching was, you know? And that there are these people who, regardless of what she thinks they should be cast as. Right. Right. Her, her consideration of their worth is right out the gate because that's her job. So how does she help somebody who she thinks isn't going to get anywhere?

5 (1h 17m 44s):
Yeah. Right. It's a setup. It's a

4 (1h 17m 46s):
Setup for failure on both sides. Right.

5 (1h 17m 51s):
Oh my God. I, yeah. It's interesting. It's just interesting to have your perspective as someone who was there as a grad student who was not, did not participate and yet still had to go through and was dealing with all the things we were dealing with, but has a slightly different and more wide lens.

4 (1h 18m 14s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I obviously went through it on my own, but you know, the, the, all that, it was funny, but Jessica Hannah right now is staying in my guest house cause she's directing my play. And so she's been here for a month and we talk every morning and discuss what went on in rehearsal. And one of the things we discussed was how the training that we did get is so good that there were all these things that they were missing.

4 (1h 18m 60s):
For sure. And there were these, there were certain teachers, obviously who abused their power. It didn't happen to me because I didn't take them seriously, which, which in the end, because I had to put that filter up. I'm not taking them seriously so that I didn't get hurt. I could have gleaned more from them, you know? So you're doing all these things, but we did, as we talk about our experience in our training and what we would want from other actors who didn't have the training we had were like, I was like, well, what, how about this? And she's like, yeah, I know. And you're like, oh, some people just don't have these tools, like these tools that you can just grab and like run with and just play with.

4 (1h 19m 48s):
But my husband, Eli's in the play as well. And I watched Eli immediately. He started a month before Hersel got off book, showed up at rehearsal, get the words, get the words out and make the connections and then doing his work ahead of time. So that then he could start gesture and start figuring out how he was going to use the space. Like he had it all mapped out. Whereas the other actors who are also equally talented weren't off-book right away, they had way more lines because he was only in the second act, but know he's also running a multimillion dollar company right now.

4 (1h 20m 28s):
So it's not like he's like sitting around just memorizing lines, like he's juggling, but he had the tools and he had the techniques to say, here's what I'm going to do to set myself up for success because I know how to do this.

5 (1h 20m 43s):
That is, that is so interesting that you say that. Cause I, I recently had the experience of like being super petrified before an audition before I moved to LA and, and our, our, our classmate Beth Lakey said to me, don't you forget your conservatory trained actor? And I was like, at first I was like, I don't know what that means. I'm just freaking out. And now that I hear you say that it's like, oh right there, ease a foundation there that we went through. That is actually super helpful in doing the job as an actor. It's actually still there, even though it got covered up with some, you know, that there is a foundation there of skill that we learned and fall back on it, if I allow myself to tap into it.

5 (1h 21m 32s):
So I forget that.

4 (1h 21m 35s):
I, I honestly, you know, I didn't have experiences that a lot of people had, you know, I never had AV Callie. I, I didn't have, you know, also Hoff. I didn't, I only had him for one semester. And so I heard stories of him, but I, I mean, you know, that the grad students in my class, we called also have, Gargamel like, we, we didn't like, we were just like, whatever, man, like, you know,

5 (1h 22m 5s):
You had some levity levity levity, like these aren't God, or they are men and women who are, are just going about their

4 (1h 22m 15s):
Yeah. And they're trying to teach something to, and the pressure that they're under from the faculty, you know, also being, having been an acting teacher at a conservatory, like I saw, I actually directed a show at DePaul when, when I started teaching at Roosevelt. So I was teaching at Roosevelt part-time and I was directing a show at DePaul and intro. And it was like night and day. I was like, oh, I would show up at this intro to rehearse. And these kids were just, I mean, there were just terrified.

4 (1h 22m 58s):
There were, there were, they were crying. They were, they didn't feel like they were good enough. There was this constant angst pain. And so I would go back to Roosevelt as a first time teacher there teaching freshmen acting. And I was like, let's keep it. Let's keep it light. You guys. Like I really kept. And that's sort of where I got the idea of like, oh, I need to make sure that these kids take this seriously and that they realize this is what they want their job to be. And they have to do the work. But I also have to make sure that they understand that when they're up there, they should be enjoying themselves and they should be playing with each other.

4 (1h 23m 38s):
And that I'm not, I mean, we didn't have a cut system. So there was not that heavy things sitting over them. I was in the last grad program that had a cut system. I was in that last year where they were going to cut. And as a grad student, you're kind of like, fine cut me. I won't owe so much money. Right, right. Or like, get it over with. So I'm not in debt, but it was, it was very eyeopening. And, and then going to a faculty meeting where I had to grade everybody with all my old acting teachers and listening to how they conversed and talked and you know, it was just, I think, oh, no, I think when you, I would have the panic attack right there, you'd be like, oh my God.

4 (1h 24m 22s):
Oh my God, nothing means anything. Oh my God. You know, like, well, yeah. I mean, there were a couple of comments that I was like, that's not appropriate. That's not what we're talking about here. And, and I called them on it. I called them on it in the meeting and, you know, make eye contact with Betsy Hamilton. And her look at me with like an ad, a girl, you know, kind of a thing where you're, you kind of are just blown away. But you, you get, what if, if, if a certain culture lets you get away with something, you, you stop seeing that it's destructive. You don't see that what you're doing is out of line and then amen. And so, you know, it starts with the Dean and I think that, you know, Dean Watts, was it Dean Watts?

4 (1h 25m 10s):
I thought he was, yeah, my whole life. I didn't even know. I mean, Dean Watts was the one who, when I had my panic attack, it was dress rehearsal or victory gardens. And he standing in the audience and he talks to the entire cast. And then he says, just so you know, we spent a shit ton of money on getting the rice for this, so don't fuck it up. Oh great. Oh. And I was like, oh my God, what has happened? And you're like, I'm, I don't care. I'll care of it. I paid you to get those rights from my money.

4 (1h 25m 52s):
You know, it just was such a like, and that was the night that I had a panic attack. Of course it was too much pressure. Wow. And

2 (1h 26m 4s):
Then yeah. So, so for people who are in theater school right now, graduate program or whatever, like find the moments where you can let yourself off the hook for, you know, the entire fate of the world resting on your shoulders or whether or not you do a really good job on this part that frankly nobody's coming to see you, except the other people who go to your school. So honestly like, Nope, Ben Brantley is not going to be writing it out in the times. So just, just relax.

4 (1h 26m 31s):
Yeah. Well honestly we did get reviewed for, I got the blues.

2 (1h 26m 36s):
Oh, you did? Oh seriously. Oh, I didn't write that.

4 (1h 26m 39s):
They brought it in because they had paid so much and it was a world premiere had never been seen before. And I was playing a part written for Stella Adler and that the character was Stella. She never got to play it. No pressure. So it was, yeah, it was her. But I mean, again, it was a great cast, very talented people that I was working with and thank God that they were there for me when I was having that, you know, between Veltin and Hogan knocker. And what's his name? He played my husband. Oh my God. I can't think of it directed that Hobart Peter.

2 (1h 27m 18s):
Oh yeah. Well, we're going to have to end, unfortunately, I want to honor your time, but thank you. This has been a fantastic conversation. I would

5 (1h 27m 29s):
Love to keep going. I mean, like

2 (1h 27m 32s):
We should have a part two someday. I really want to hear about

5 (1h 27m 34s):
You on set. And it also, I just want to say like, as an actor, like I now questioning, maybe I just haven't found the right director.

4 (1h 27m 44s):
Well, you know, I always ask actors, but as an actor, I think you can always say to your director, listen, this is something that I deal with. So can you actually, my actress on, on the short film said that to me, she said, I have anxiety and I've had panic attacks. So if, if you give me a direction and suddenly I start to feel anxious, can we have, can I always take a moment? I was like, absolutely. Of course you can. So I think you have to advocate for yourself as well. And also remember, remember, nobody's going to fire you for having anxiety because there would be no actors, actors, actors have anxiety because they're empathic people and there's a lot on them.

4 (1h 28m 32s):
And they're, they're constantly putting themselves in a vulnerable situation where, you know, everybody else that's involved, it's vulnerable, but not the same way. If you're in theater at night after night, you're having to put yourself out there. If it's film, you're putting yourself out there and then once you're done, they get to put together an edit, whatever you put out there. So again, as actors, if you don't want it to be in the movie, don't do it.

6 (1h 29m 5s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?