Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to
Know, a podcast dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and
everything you need to know.
I'm Trey.
Jude: I'm jude.
How are you doing Trey?
Trey: Man, this feels weird.
We we recorded earlier this week for the Spider-Man: No Way Home
trailer that finally came out.
And so it feels like we're double-dipping this week.
Jude: It does.
It does.
I was like, we just recorded.
What are we doing?
But, uh, yea.
Trey: We've, we've put in our work.
We can take the week off, right?
\ Jude: You know what
it was, it was.
Ah, such a glorious day, the Spider-Man trailer coming out.
Trey: The best part of it was you calling it, which I didn't
give you credit for at the time.
But looking back on it, when I was doing like the social media post, where
I was like adding a bunch of different things to the Instagram carousel,
I made sure to get your screenshot.
And I was like, Jude knocked that out of the park and I was so dismissive.
Jude: Well, you know what?
Friend Daniel kind of gave me a hard time.
He was like, yeah, but how many times were you wrong?
Trey: You only have to be right once and hope everybody forgets all the others.
Absolutely
Jude: That's story of my life.
Trey: Otherwise known as our WandaVision coverage.
Jude: No kidding.
Right.
The X-Men are coming!
Trey: Oh man,, but yeah, that's, that's how I'm doing.
It's been weird.
Jude: Yeah.
Trey: What about you?
Jude: I'm doing all right.
I think it's interesting that we're coming around that time.
That it's hurricane season again.
Trey: I know.
Jude: So we probably shouldn't have guests because you're just going to be
rescheduled.
Trey: Well, hopefully history doesn't repeat itself because
there is a projected hurricane.
And the last time I was editing and it's my week to edit.
So if there's episodes late this Monday, you know, huh.
Jude: I think it will be in the clear.
And so, you know, I'm just glad that tomorrow is Friday.
Um, and I realized as you're listening to it, it's a Monday, but as we record.
Well at the gas bingo card.
Tomorrow's Friday.
Oh my friend.
It'd a little bit of time traveling.
Um, my friend, uh, or friends, my cousin, Paul who's a listener of the pod will, is
actually staying with me for the weekend.
So that'll be fun and he'll be here tomorrow.
Um, but as he's listening to this, it will have happened.
Podcasting
Trey: is wild.
Yep.
Well, if you download this episode, you know, we're going to be talking about
what if season one, episode three, what if the world lost its mightiest heroes?
So the way we're going to do this is we're going to have some pre spoiler thoughts,
uh, which is a chance for us to talk about the episode without spoiling it.
And eventually that'll bring us to a audio cue, which will
bring us to the spoiler zone.
But before we get there, uh, dude, what are your pre spoiler
thoughts for this episode?
Jude: I really enjoyed it.
It was one of those.
That.
Hmm.
How do I explain it?
It was one of those where I just kind of sat back and enjoyed it.
Like, you know what I mean?
Still had that cartoon field we talked about last week.
I don't think it had as many cartoon ish lines in the writing, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
But w but it was definitely, you know, well paced kinda Saturday
morning cartoon, uh, you know, and I was streaming services and no TV.
I don't even know if my kids know what Saturday morning cartoons are.
Trey: Oh man.
I never even thought about that.
I
Jude: know.
And so in that sense, it took me back, which was really.
And you preach for their
Trey: thoughts, priests for Lutherans.
You know, one of the things we always talk about whenever we review series, whether
it's the movies or the Disney plus series, whatever it is, is this feeling of either,
and then this happened storytelling or actual cause and effect storytelling.
This I think was the best demonstration of cause and effect
storytelling that I've seen.
I think it helps that it is these quick, under 30 minutes.
Like dip in dip out episodes, but that gives them the freedom to
really boil down the storytelling.
And I think that was impressive.
And I think what also helps that is that at its core, this is a murder mystery and
despite I'll get into, and once we get into the spoiler zone, but despite some
quibbles I have with it, it did keep me engaged in that mystery or all the way
to the end, which is really impressive.
And the last pre spoiler.
Yeah.
I like that this episode is essentially what if phase one was as interconnected
as the later seasons of the MCU?
Jude: Yes.
I love that.
It went through, you know, can we talk about the week and how it jumped around?
Like you said, those movies through the week, and that was really, really
good.
Trey: Well, those are our pre spoiler thoughts.
So that leaves us with the spoiler zone.
So like we said, you're going to hear an audio cue.
And on the other side, it'll be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.
So we'll see you on the other side.
And we're back.
So we're going to breaking these down into the most important topics, which as we've
been doing for these last two episodes.
And now this third one, we're going to start with the choice as
the first main important topic.
This is the section for us to really describe and dig into what
has changed in this universe.
So with this episode, Jude, where would you like to start for
Jude: me?
I, I really liked the way.
We jumped into iron man too.
Uh, it felt very similar to episode one where we're captain
America, first of injure.
And then all of a sudden there's a deviation.
So I really enjoyed that part considering like where they go.
And as we mentioned, the murder mystery and the who did.
It was something I wasn't expecting.
You know, it was a really good murder mystery in the sense of, I wasn't
expecting it, but they give you enough information towards the end or you
can figure out sort of, but yeah, I really liked that, that element cause
like, okay, we're doing iron man too.
We'll do an Ironman to the next thing.
You know, he just kills over.
Um, so I, I really enjoyed the way they did the choice in this one.
Trey: It's definitely not clearly as defined.
From last week and even more so in that first episode, which I think has been the
most defined choice of the series so far.
And that trips me up a little bit, but the more I thought about it, I think I
appreciated that it wasn't like a drastic change so much as a, an illuminating
look like I liked that we got that walk up to a familiar zone where.
It's Nat and fury in the car as they're approaching stark.
Right.
So it was cool to kind of like get this pulled back view a bit, which
is, I think another potential of this.
What if series, like so much of it is like, oh, expanding the
possibilities of what could happen.
And I think this episode gave us like, okay, well, here's just
a kind of pulled back view too.
And I appreciated that
Jude: it's giving us something that we hadn't seen before.
That fits within what we're familiar with.
And I think it really is following the idea of a multi-verse fairly closely,
you know, I mean, I mean the idea that, you know, there's some other
universe out there where there's a slight deviation and then there's
another universe where there's that as a different deviation, you know?
And, and so with the, the movies that were used to.
Seeing rooting us in that.
And I think that's where I got where I was really disappointed in the first,
in the second episode, which is weird.
Cause I have so many people love it, but they didn't for me put us into that movie.
And then we see that deviation, you know, it was just like,
we see the beginning of it.
What does guardians okay.
Let's rewind and see the difference.
And, and so it just kind of took me out of it, you know?
So in, in that, like that, that's something that I really enjoyed about it
is, is that framing or that rooting in the
Trey: familiar?
Yeah, I do want to make one slight clarification here.
It's funny.
How, what if in these first three episodes.
Is already so wild that Tony start can die.
And I felt comfortable saying not a drastic change.
And what I mean by that, what I mean by that, obviously that's huge.
All the Avengers died in this episode spoilers, but for the most part, the
storylines played out the same way.
Minus the fact that everybody's dropping dead, but it wasn't a drastic change.
Like, because this happened now this person is in space.
If that makes sense.
Yes.
That makes sense.
So, so just to clarify, like, it was, it was like a, it was like a self-governing
TVA timeline where it's like, oh, we keep trying to go back to where we
were supposed to be, but we can't.
Jude: Right.
Well, I mean, it makes sense, right?
Cause everybody's following their same path.
Right.
Yeah.
And the, the choice, the offscreen choice, you know, that, that takes us
into deviation then continues and you get the logical progression of, okay.
So now Blackwood, it goes for banner here rather than when they're trying
to get the, of interest together.
Right.
Um, low-key showing up in, uh, it's a revenge Thor, you
know, is a logical conclusion.
You know, when, when Thor would naturally be going and on separately
and as an as guard, you know?
And so, yeah, so like that and doing what he did in the first store movie.
So yeah, so like, I, I like it in the way you said it's like, and then
this happened and this happened, but it wasn't way out in left field.
Trey: Well, unless there's any more here in the choice, I think we can go ahead
and move into our next most important top.
So this one is going to be Fury's big week.
Now this is going to entail everything to do with fury, as he progressed
to this episode in a familiar.
Too familiar progression of trying to recruit his projected candidates
for the Avengers initiative.
So starting with me this time, I think what I found really impressive
about this episode is that it bridged three movies from one perspective.
So Fury's big week has already something.
I think a lot of the fans were familiar with because.
I think that might've been one of the first like, oh, these are all
truly connected moments where you could see the interlocking storyline
of Ironman to Hulk and Thor.
And to an extent, captain America, as it led up into the Avengers, right?
Those took place over four movies.
But because we're from the perspective of Nick fury, they
can condense all of that into one.
And I think that's just such a nice mechanic for this story, especially
because it's a murder mystery.
So having the Monday, Tuesday, and like, it's almost like you could hear
the done done of law and order without them actually having to use that.
So that was, that was really impressive.
Jude: And that sense, I also think it's fitting that fury, it was
centered on fury because, you know, it was Fury's idea to bring the team
together, you know, so to speak, but it also like how they made fun of him.
The speech all the way through, like, I've heard it, I've read it, you know?
And in that I, yeah, like that, that was so for me, that was
so good, but you're right.
Like, like you had the opportunity to see that, but it makes sense
if you're going to do this, that's who you centered on, right?
Cause this is him attempting.
To play out his idea and in watch him have to deal with it step
Trey: by step.
Yeah.
And talking about this, I think that's what helps solidify what
was off putting to me about the choice not being clearly defined.
We, I mean, we were in spoiler zone.
We know that the biggest change was Hank Pym going on this mission to
take out the Avengers initiative.
So it was interesting to me that the choice was divorced
from the main character, which is Nick fury in this situation.
But given the overall message that I think this episode is shooting for, I don't
think the choice has to be Nick Fury's because it is all about his resolve.
And I don't know, I guess I'm still exploring my feelings about that.
Given the short timeframe, you can pull that off where it's not his choice,
but it's still his strength, if that
Jude: makes sense.
But it also like with that, the ramifications of with the Avengers
gone, it made it easier for Loki Loki to take over, which makes sense.
But it happened in a completely different way, you know, and shows how neat.
The Avengers were and
Trey: are speaking of Loki's arrival.
I mean, the tagline of the series is one question changes everything.
And I think I'm trying to evaluate my words here because I did mention
earlier not being a drastic change.
And I had originally wrote, I think so far, this episode has been the
perfect encapsulation of that.
And.
I think even though the changes aren't drastic, you can see the cascading
effects of them, uh, far more, just because we already talked about how
there's this feeling of a shifting storyline where, because this happened
now, NATS here, because this happened now Fury's right here and it takes
what was already a big week for fuel.
And makes it a tremendous week.
And I think it goes to show kind of what I was saying about furious resolved,
but also proving the point of the Avengers of like they needed them.
And now we get to see a glimpse of what it wouldn't have,
what it would be like with it.
And, and to just round that off, I want to, I, you know, I mentioned the
phrase last week, a lived in world because of the sliding storylines.
It does feel like it's traces of that lived in world because of stark dying
and the way that affected the plans.
It shows how stacked everything is against fury, which I think will bring us to a
very satisfactory resolution by the end.
Well,
I'm
Jude: wondering if this is just me and why I liked this episode so much
or may or, you know, and let me just say it this way and to see what you
think in the, in the contributing.
Because we know these characters so well, because we were with them from
phase one all the way to end game.
And after with black widow, we had a lot to work with and outside knowledge
and I, and I think that that maybe help for me enhance this, uh, episode and
maybe even help the writers in terms of.
What they could do and rely on like previous knowledge of the character,
you know, make making the jokes about Thor's looks poking fun at the speech,
you know, the way they portrayed general Ross and all and all of that stuff.
I think, I think that he, a lot of heavy lifting didn't have to be done
in this episode as they did with the
Trey: others.
You know, I mentioned this in that first solo episode where.
I came away from that one, feeling like I watched a Marvel legends
episode for an alternate universe.
And you saying what you just said now about the heavy
lifting, being the knowledge we have of the movies beforehand?
I really think those two points are, are clicking for me where I, I don't
know how to bring, like I'm already thinking ahead to, cause we always
do a, um, an overall wrap-up episode.
And one of the things I've been thinking of throughout these first three episodes.
Yeah.
I don't know if this series works without the prior knowledge for it not being as
connected to the MCU, as it feels right now, it's also not standalone either.
And it's a weird nebulous space that it finds itself in.
Jude: This is completely not standalone.
I Hmm.
I really would be interested to know, you know, cause we hear the like,
oh, I, I saw Loki for the first time and now I'm going back and watching
one division and all the other.
ER, I saw one division for the first time and that got me into the MCC.
Man, I wonder how flat this falls or does it work that way where
it's a good entryway to the MCU?
I don't feel like it is,
Trey: this feels right.
Even harder to jump into than end game.
Cause I know it's happened before where somebody said like, oh
yeah, I jumped in at end game and then went back to watch them all.
Cause I liked it that much.
I don't know if you could do that for this.
Jude: Because even with the Watchers dialogue, there's
clearly a reference to it.
Something else.
Yeah.
You know, like the iron Stomper, hydrogen, why can't I get that?
Right.
Uh, the hydro Stauffer, you know, screw it, Nazi Thumper.
Um, the hydro Stomper.
You know, I, listen,
Trey: I know your team stark, and it must tear at your core to know that
Steve is in the iron man, sand that's.
That's why the
Jude: district it is.
It's just like the synapses in my brain just doesn't know which one to fire.
Cause it's like what?
Um, but, but yeah, like to have that particular armor show up, like you need
to have seen iron man to have to really understand and appreciate the connection.
I feel, you know, same thing you got to see, Star-Lord be an idiot to understand.
They are the whole like, or like the whole getting side excited, you
know, when, when it is star Lord versus the who kinda thing, you know,
the, the quips about it is genocide.
It's efficient, like without seeing in game.
Uh, and then this like, like what are they actually referring to
when they give starkly injection?
You
Trey: know, it's, it's hard to just jump in, um,
Jude: But if you do jump in on this episode and then go back, imagine
the shock when you show up and you're like, Edward Norton, that's not,
Trey: oh man.
Yeah.
This, uh, this definitely gave us a glimpse of what it would be
like if a ruffle was there from the beginning and it was uncanny.
Jude: See that meant maybe that was the choice.
Trey: What if we never
Jude: recast it?
Oh, my gosh, how great would that would be if they brought like
Terrence Howard back to voice roadie
Trey: that's
Jude: there's no Norton, you know, and you're just like, what if we didn't
recast of that would be so awful.
Or, or they should be so great.
Uh, you got Emily blunt to voice black widow.
Trey: Wow.
Now that's, that's a deep do definitely me into the fandom to pick
Jude: that up.
Fantastic.
Trey: Okay.
Well, you know, speaking of the influences from the entirety of the MC it'll Austin
Thor, I do, Hey, it's possible there.
I got Hiddleston Loki in that, so.
Let's have some fun with it.
Anyway, like I was saying, uh, the influences, the MCU, I really liked
that this episode feels like it's pulling from a lot of different places.
The obvious one is phase one, but I also feel like we're getting hints
at a winter soldier type vibe, especially with the Natasha storyline.
But since we're in the fury section, His storyline really reminded me of
civil war in that spirit of destroy them from the inside kind of feeling
that, uh, Hank Pym was going.
And so watching theory come into conflict with that was very interesting.
Oh yeah.
Jude: Well, you know, you had the hint because it was kind of a mystery.
Um, it would bring crossbones back.
Frank Grillo does the voice.
Um, yeah, absolutely.
Trey: You know, another thing that I really wanted to zone in on is the.
Inclusion of Colson.
Uh, I put him here in the Nick fury section just because their
storylines are really tied together.
My impression was that I think Colson really evolved into being
this comedic type character.
Like he always had his humorous moments, but definitely in that first phase,
he was a lot more straight-laced than I think he was allowed to
be funny, if that makes sense.
And so it's fun to revisit phase one with a Colson that just gets to be
funny and sometimes a little weird.
Well, I'm
Jude: wondering, do we.
What Colson was like in phase one, because, you know, he didn't
make it out of phase one because of agents of shield, you know?
And I realize, you know, like can canonicity instead of word.
Trey: Okay.
It is now MC you need to know canonicity and that's right.
Jude: Canonicity um, because of the, you know, the canonicity
question of agents of shield.
Um, the hope of the MCU rewind and the scourge of leech.
I do.
I wonder if that changes how we view Colson or at least in memory,
you know, and so you're right.
Getting to explore.
This was really, it was
Trey: really.
Well to put it this way.
I think this demonstrates Colson in phase one more like he wasn't agents
of shield, then he wasn't phase one because I want to, I want to be clear.
I'm not saying that he was absent of comedic moments because he did have them.
But I think there was, I think that was more attributed to Clark Greg's
personality than it was the character.
And then the character evolved to be funny.
Yeah.
But you know, sticking with Colson.
There's one more scene.
Zone in on for this most important topic.
And it was the one where Colson and fury are in the diner after
Natasha has passed away, you know, Cole sends assuring fury that like,
Hey, you're not down every vendor.
There was still one name on the list.
Yours.
And so this whole scene is played out as a moment to like, be the revelation
of like, oh, fury can call Danvers in.
And he goes to go get the beeper and all that jazz.
But I like that they have that buildup, but then there's a pause where fury
figures out how to handle this on his own.
And so it explores this idea of fury being the heart of the Avengers.
Not necessarily.
Within the connection of the team, but just again, there was
an idea, it was Fury's idea.
And he brought these people together.
And even when he's down to the last leg, literally him, it still takes
Jude: shape.
Yeah.
I like, I like that.
You put it that way.
Uh, cause I said, you know, I guess it's, you know, off pine, but I
never thought of fury as an Avenger.
I just thought of them as the orchestrator, if you
will, of the Avengers.
I mean, yeah.
I also just realized.
This is a universe, I guess, Colson still alive.
Yeah.
Cause there's you made it out.
Yeah.
Good for Colson.
Trey: You know, we talked about this off mic before we got into this subject.
Part of the reason why I wanted to make sure we talked about Colson is he somehow
slipped through all of our review.
I think iron man, iron man two is where he's most prominent and we
didn't mention him much at all.
Jude: Well, He didn't have much to do.
He really did.
And it was like a show up and it, it really was, he was used as that connective
tissue from movie to movie, you know, he showed up in Ironman, stablish at the
shield show of an Ironman to, um, Thor.
Not really captain America.
Um, you know, and, and just gave you those little connections.
I don't remember Colson didn't show up in incredible Hulk.
Trey: I don't think so.
I think the only connected tissue we have was the Tony stark post credit scene.
So
Jude: like, so he didn't have, I mean, God, when you consider what people think
of Colson, you know, fans wise, he didn't have a lot of screen time, but like you
said, I think that's a credit to Clark.
Gregg.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, that's going to wrap it up for our thoughts in the Fury's big week section,
which will bring us into the next one, which is called Natasha's mission.
This is going to send her on to everything regarding Romanovs time in
the episode where she is covertly, trying to track down who is responsible for
all the murders that are taking place.
So Jude, we're starting with you this time, where would you like to.
My favorite
Jude: part, honestly, in favorite's probably too strong of a word, but the
part that I really enjoyed in both watches was how they took the winter soldier
elevator scene, but then put it at least for me and then put it into the scene
where Natasha escapes from the truck that I, I just thoroughly enjoyed both
Trey: times it.
And again, I talked about how there was influences from the
MCU in the previous section.
I mentioned the winter soldier part for Natasha that fits in wonderfully,
especially with them doing the, the elevator scene payoff here.
And it's the same crew and they even have hints to it too, which
is whenever she's being carted off, you hear rum lo mentioned like, Hey,
Pierce wants Natasha for questioning.
At that point in the prime timeline, we didn't really know that they
were Hydra, but because of what we were talking about earlier about.
This being so dependent on our knowledge, it is fun that you get a glimpse of that.
Um, that reality of what it could be with Hydra.
And I think it helps seed the idea that what's going on might be high
to relate it and not necessarily the revelation with yeah, it's a nice
Jude: misdirect.
Um, the trust still from furious part to Natasha, which is very similar to.
Like you said winter soldier.
Yeah.
Trey: Yeah.
So I do have more to say, but I want to go ahead and take some time here to show
some appreciation for lake bell, who is the voice actress for Natasha Romanov?
I think she did a really, really good job.
And the thing that stuck out to me is Scarlett Johannson has a certain
cadence to her line delivery in the movies that I think lake bell nailed
here in the what F series and much like what I was saying with Josh Keaton.
Steve Rogers in the first episode, it feels like there is a mixture
of something new and something familiar in their performance.
And I just wanted to highlight that here
Jude: with Lakeville.
You know what I will say that and just add on, I don't think I missed
Scarlett Johannson, not being there.
Same for toe for rubber Downey, Jr.
Same for, like I said, Steve Rogers, Chris Evans.
Like, like it, didn't not hearing or recognizing their voices.
Didn't take me out of it at all.
And I, and I think that's what you're just saying, a credit to the work
that they did, the, the, the voice
Trey: and, you know, I have his name here.
I had every straight thoughts, but I'll pull it up.
Mic Wingert is the voice of Tony stark in this episode.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Like my, my very first note.
Was stark really sounds like the actors.
Trey: Yeah.
You know, and it was something I was really worried about because that
second trailer we got for what it is.
It opened up with, I'm assuming the same voice actor for Tony stark.
And I just remember thinking like, Ooh, that is a bold choice to start
this episode with that rendition of Tony stark, because that felt way off.
So I've been very apprehensive about seeing Tony stark in this, but in
this episode, I think he nailed
Jude: it.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Uh, side note, as I went to IMD just now to pull up the case.
Um, you know, when you go to seasons and you go look for the episode, there's
some nails up for all the episodes.
Uh, don't go look.
Trey: Oh, no.
Did you just get smiled
Jude: a little bit?
A little bit, so yeah, just, uh, don't do that anyway.
Yeah.
Don't.
Shame on me for wanting to, I don't know, give credit to voice
actors and try to look up their names and get spoiled for things.
See,
Trey: this is going to make sense when you get to the end of the episode and
you don't even know what I want to do yet, but chronologically as you're
listening to it, this is I've always felt a tinge of guilt that we never really
highlight the writers and the directors.
Every time we do an episode.
Because of what just happened to you is exactly why I never looked
Jude: right.
Trey: Oh man.
I'm sorry, dude.
That
Jude: sucks.
That's all right.
I believe my MDB.
Yeah,
Trey: should've gone to Wikipedia and
Jude: actually what I wanted to check is Michael Douglas voiced.
Yeah.
That's the thing is like how you mentioned, like seeing Josh Brolin's name.
They didn't have my house's name in the beginning.
Trey: Oh, that's good.
I didn't even, I actually start, like, I pick a point when the
opening intro is playing and I just keep my eyes fixated on it.
So I don't.
Yeah,
Jude: well, like I didn't, I I'm the second watch I was looking at.
Because of what you said about Brolin and I did not see it
unless I'm just like that.
Don't so
Trey: you need to know, let us know
Jude: is Juju there.
It is friend.
Daniel's going to be like free day.
He was going to like blow up on this.
And my brother, Daniel's going to jump in.
We'll
Trey: do a poll.
Yes or no.
Jude: It's dangerous.
My wife will respond like it's, we're going to probably get
the most engagement say yes,
Trey: I wouldn't do that to you.
Hmm, maybe transitions.
Let's
Jude: jump back in.
Um, also I wanted to look up like lake bell lake bell was the voice of
Vanessa Fisk and into the spider verse.
Oh, well, I didn't know that, uh, Chloe and secret life of pets too crossed
over to the DC universe hardly, uh, and the Harley Quinn TV series did
poison Ivy and a couple of others.
Um, see if there's anything drunk history, TV series, she shows up and secret life
of pets, Chloe on the first one as well.
And I'm gonna say robot chicken a couple of times.
Interesting black widow and robot chicken back in 2012.
Okay,
Trey: Nan.
So this goes all the
Jude: way.
Uh, in aerial and black in a robot chicken.
So yeah.
You know, um, awesome.
Trey: Well, speaking about Natasha in this episode in particular, um,
we've, we've kind of talked a little bit about it already, but just
to put a final point on it, I do like that they adapted so much of.
Trust being vital to Natasha's character.
Uh, we already highlighted the winter soldier influences, which
was our first real glimpse into it.
But after seeing black widow, we know how important trust is to her character
and to have them have that moment where she's in handcuffs and she's kind of.
Pleading, like, I didn't do this, but nobody's going to believe me.
And then Nick fury comes in and is like, I believe you, you're
the safest bet I'll ever make.
That was just really nice.
And it's these little man these calculated, like.
Punches of sincerity that I think is working for this episode.
And again, I
Jude: think that goes back to being able to build off of our
knowledge off of these characters.
Do you think they had Loki and Jamie Alexander lady SIF, do their voice work?
While filming since they were there while filming Loki.
Trey: Well, you know, this didn't make a cut of an episode, but we
had that little debrief with friend Daniel, where we were talking about
some speculation stuff I won't get into here, but I made like part of my
rationale for a scenario I was pitching was that Tom Hiddleston did the voice.
For the making of documentary.
And I was under the impression that happened because they were
working on what if as well.
And since you already have the voice recording set up, why not
go ahead and just do that too.
Yeah.
I don't think it'd be that hard of a stretch to say like, Hey, maybe.
I mean, they were already working on one thing.
Why not just kind of save time and do that too.
Jude: You don't have to bring them in separately.
I mean, they don't shoot things in order on movies.
Anyways.
He's these professionals can do something like that.
Yeah.
Trey: Huh.
Interesting thought.
You know, another, one of the things that I really wanted to hone in on
here in this Natasha's mission section is I really appreciate the love that
they're showing towards incredible hope.
I feel like that's a movie that often gets changed a lot within the MCU cannon,
uh, to the point that I think people often forget it is part of the MCU.
So I, I, I, I have a soft spot for it, so it was really nice to see it here
throughout the majority of her storyline.
And again, it's more of that cause and effect storytelling
where, because stark died.
Nat is now involved with Bruce banner, whereas previously she
was tied up in iron man too.
So it's, it's, it's fun to see those shifts.
Jude: Well, my note made the incredible Hulk relevant exclamation point.
Uh, I mean you just did like, you have to have.
A working knowledge of that movie.
And that's like you said, the scene, not just that, but that scene is
like a skippable movie really.
And so I'm, I'm glad they went in that direction.
Uh, it was good to see Betsy Ross come back.
Obviously they didn't bring Liv Tyler back to voice it.
I think that's okay.
You know, but yeah.
General Ross actually sounded like general Ross, even though it wasn't.
Um, yeah, so that I'm, I'm glad you brought that up.
That was really good.
There was a moment during that sequence though.
I was going to say this restraint thoughts, but I'm going to
bring it up when Natasha landed after jumping out the winner.
All I thought was, oh, I thought it was what a poser.
Yeah,
Trey: don't get me wrong.
I'd love to keep having Scarlett Johannson and black widow
within the MCU moving forward.
But because of the black widow solo movie, I don't think I could ever
take us another landing seriously.
So maybe it's good that the
Jude: characters go well, even when he, even when fury did his land.
After matrix flipping over Loki, I was just like poser, poser, which
Florence Pugh, when you need her,
Trey: you know, I know our friends over at MC rewind.
They have account of the superhero landing going on within the MCU.
I hope they've adapted it to just being posers.
Jude: Yes.
Oh God, that'd be great.
That's great.
Just rename it.
The poster account.
Oh,
Trey: yeah.
Oh man.
So one more thing to talk about Hawk.
Before we move back to Natasha man, what a horrific way for hope to go.
Um, this is even more of a tangent.
Like I know this isn't a hope focused episode, but I hope the NCU gets away
from using the hope as a way to set the stakes of how desperate things.
Because it feels like the last few depictions we've had of
them has been exactly that.
So an infinity war, you had him losing the Thanos, uh, an in game.
You had him snapping and showing how much it damaged him.
And then in this one, you've had them exploding, which really set
the tone of like, oh, they're up against something really big.
Yeah.
Jude: You know what?
It was interesting.
Uh, my cousin, Paul, who I mentioned earlier, texted me and said, I didn't
expect how mature the storyline would be.
Like I was legit shocked when the whole blew up.
It's dark.
Yeah.
And, and for me, the one that really got me was the Chippendales.
I was like age range.
Do these kids know and whatnot, but it's, it's TV 14.
They're
Trey: thinking of the squirrels.
No, I'm not
Jude: thinking of the squirrels.
Trey: No.
Oh, okay.
I said that.
Jude: I know, but I'm just saying like, like that line and like I'm thinking age
range of like, you know, But it's it's TB 14 and cousin Paul even said, thinking
back to that first episode, captain Carter was really messing up those people
in more than a PG manner in quotes.
But I mean, yeah, he's right.
Like, and, and I think that's the other kind of maybe disconnect that
I had is in that such a cartoon feel.
And again, not in a pejorative sense, but it's such a cartoon feel, but it's not.
And, and it it's in this weird space.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, I'll have more to say on this.
Once we get into the last important topic, but you were zoning in on something that
I'm feeling definitely with this episode.
And you know, this will round out my thoughts for this
Natasha's mission section.
I think I am more lukewarm on this episode than most, and
that's not to say I don't like it.
Cause there are parts of it that I do enjoy, but.
Keep going back and forth on how I ultimately feel about it.
However, the scene that I think puts me more on the positive side than
the negative is whenever Natasha was in the library and she's doing kind
of the last bits of research before discovering who is behind all of this.
There is genuine tension of watching her kind of just looking over her shoulder.
And I think that moment solidifies that despite my conflicted
feelings, this episode nailed the emotional investment of the story.
So for all the hangups I may have about tone and stuff like that, they're,
they're working effectively with stories.
Oh
Jude: yeah.
It was interesting for me on, on Natasha.
You know, she had that line, who do I kill?
And my thought was like, well, I guess she's not interested in
clearing her ledger, you know?
But at the same time, it makes sense though.
When, when you, when you think of the reaction to Martin's murder and
where we're at within phase one,
Trey: yeah.
At this point, she definitely hasn't had that influence of Barton
believing that she can change.
Like it's still very early on in her
Jude: journey.
Well, you know, those little ripple effects that spinning the web of the
Trey: multi-verse.
Yeah.
I think that's going to round out our Natasha's mission section, which
will leave us with the assassin as our next most important topic.
So this is going to deal with the revelation that it was Hank Pym,
who was exacting revenge on shield for the death of his daughter.
So starting with me this time.
I got to say, Michael Douglas, I think might be the NVP of this episode.
Oh, absolutely.
So much of this episode hinges on the mystery of the murders.
And even after getting to that moment where you can piece it together
in the library, the reveal of Hank Pym is as satisfying as it is for
me because of Michael Douglas has,
Jude: oh, it was really good.
It was it.
And what's interesting is I keep going back to this idea of like, it
feels like a cartoon, the way the lines are delivered and everything.
It didn't feel that way for me when Michael Douglas, his performance,
Trey: not at all.
And even with his sillier lines, it still feels authentic.
Jude: Yeah, it was, it was really good.
I liked that he was in the yellow jacket suit, but with the helmet.
Yeah, that
Trey: was really good.
And you know, it, it makes sense that PIM would be pushed to this edge after
the loss of his daughter, because he was already skirting the line
of legality in the ant man movies.
Like he was clearly okay with breaking the law for things that he deemed
just, and that was just being on the fringe of his daughter's life.
Now that she's completely gone and he has no one left.
Of course, he's going to devolve into this deranged supervillain
that he becomes in this.
Jude: Yeah.
Uh, this was this, this was the surprise that the challah star Lord should have
been, but without, but they showed it.
Trey: I got ya.
So, you know, I mentioned it in the previous section about having more to say
about the feeling of it being a cartoon.
The first two episodes.
I think we really talked about the positives of what the animation brought.
So for example, in the first episode we mentioned, they were really able to
flex the super soldier serum for Peggy.
Uh, and the second episode, it allowed us to extend.
Believability to something like a pacified Thanos and this episode, I think this
is where I felt the animation hurt the episode more than the previous two.
And it was really in that moment where we saw Nick fury fighting Hank Pym.
So.
Obviously the payoff of the moment is that it's not fury, it's actually Loki
disguised as fury, but because the tone of this episode is so all over the place.
I honestly didn't know if the episode was asking me to buy in that, like Nick
fury had his, I can do this moment.
And now he's just like all over the place doing flips and fighting and
he could have done this all along.
Or the actual moment was like, no, he's just teamed up with Loki.
Yeah.
It feels distracting.
It's not bad.
And I think if you do this in live action, there is a moment where you can
kind of be like, oh, okay, I get it.
But I can't tell which way they want me to go with that.
Jude: Yeah.
Cause my first watch, I was like, okay, if you read your bad-ass all right.
And then once you started it, you know, it was like, I can believe that.
And then, but once he started doing like the other stuff, I'm
just like, so he's an ex man.
Trey: Nick fury was a mutant right
Jude: there.
And then, and then when they hit the icicles, like, okay, it's
low-key, you know, and so, yeah, I completely understand there.
I mean, my single note on that is still not a fan of the animation style.
Um, I'm just not, and I won't be, and that's okay.
Trey: And that's yeah, that's fine.
So, and, and, and just to highlight the T like, it feels bad cause like I'm
not, not liking it, I'm enjoying these, but there is this feeling of the tone.
Like you have this super serious moment, like who do I kill?
And then you have a moment with Colson.
Oh man.
He smells like lavender whenever he's sniffing a dead body.
And it's just like, I, it feels like whiplash sometimes
between these episodes and.
It is attributed like they're tackling big stories and less than 30 minute chunks.
Yeah.
But that was one of the negatives I had.
I do want to bring it back to a positive by saying we now have two
entries where fury isn't actually fury.
And in both cases, Samuel Jackson does an amazing, subtle job with making that work.
So for instance, you don't know it until you watch it in hindsight, but
there was clues to it not really being.
Uh, whenever fury quote unquote is talking to Hank Pym and he's in
Pimms, like accusing them for being over the grave of his daughter.
Fury says something like, oh, don't worry about her.
She's dead.
She won't mind.
And it was just like at first I was like, man, this is a very
harsh line to come from fury.
And then he has another one he's like, I never cared about any of them.
And it doesn't make sense until you see him as low-key.
But I like.
Half of it is attributed to the writing obviously, but Samuel Jackson, I
think really is selling those lines.
Yeah.
I thought the
Jude: same thing.
I was like, wow.
That's so what's he doing?
Is he trying to egg him on trying to make a mistake here?
You know, kind of, kind of thing.
And then the second one.
Yeah, this is low-key of course.
Uh huh.
Trey: Oh yeah.
And you can even notice it in the like, oh, her mother was an agent too.
Like there's genuine shock there or how he always says everybody's first name,
like Hank Pym Anthony start Clint Barton.
Like he goes through everybody's name because he doesn't know these people.
He was just given the information to make this work,
Jude: right?
Yeah.
That's a good catch on the, on the dialogue
Trey: there.
Yeah.
So there.
Care taken to the fact that it's not actually fury and I guess
they've had practice after far from
Jude: home scroll.
Uh, I just want to circle back to one thought about the whole murder
mystery thing, the way Natasha said it's hope it was hope all along that
I immediately thought hope van Dyne like, there was no question, you know,
and then it was just, it was kind of like, okay, why are you dragging your
feet of fury should pick up on this?
You know?
But that was a really good misdirect.
Cause I thought hope was the killer, you know?
Yeah.
Trey: Yeah.
Even when she was on the computer, you see hope van Dyne.
No, no, you don't.
You see a Janet van Dyne and she, she makes that line of like, how does a person
who died two years ago, access files.
So, yeah, I definitely felt that misdirect with you.
That was my thought.
So with the assassin important topic out of the way, we're going to go
ahead and jump into our last important topic, which is simply fear resources.
So when the episode ends, we see that Loki decides to take over earth
anyway, and fury is left without any of the original Avengers, which allows
him to give this speech about the ideas still being alive and finding
new Avengers to take their place.
So, uh, do, do you have any place you'd like to start there?
Jude: It's still within the week, Loki made quick work.
Without the oven.
Right.
You know, it was like, what now, next day, he's at the UN Neil, you
will mint to be ruled and I'm your ruler, whatever the speech is.
Trey: Thank you.
My loyal subjects.
Jude: Um, I do like though that they did acknowledge
Carol, like that was an option.
Trey: Yeah, they really, they got to plant that seed and have the moment of like
fear of being like, no, I can do this.
And then by the end, it's like, but we're going to bring Carol Danvers in any way.
And then, I mean, it's like, yeah, you've got like the heaviest of hitters.
Jude: So he made the same mistake, right?
Not calling Carolyn sooner.
Trey: So maybe the what if is, what if Nick fury wasn't Eric.
Jude: That would be short episode.
Oh man.
Captain Marvel is here and I feel like we're talking bad.
I love captain Marvel.
I loved the movie.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
But the ridiculous power set.
It's like, dude, what are you doing?
Use the pager.
Trey: Well, we got close to this time.
Maybe in another if episode, but circling back, I do want to highlight,
you talked about how quickly Loki took over without the Avengers.
It's a fun call back to the low-key series, where Mobius was very dead set on.
You are there to inspire the others to reach their great potential.
And so in this universe where they're not there low-key gets to have
everything he wanted, which is nice.
Jude: Yeah.
Oh, that would be neat if like, like, uh, oh, well here's
where it would it be possible.
Okay.
So it would be neat if they did this, but I'm glad they didn't.
And I hope, you know, you know, those like how it should
have ended shorts on YouTube.
What I want to see is a one of these, this episode or how it should have ended
where like miss minutes and the TVA shows up, the moment stark is killed.
Hey, Pam gets approved.
That would be fun.
Trey: Okay.
So I'm going to bring this up.
This was a discussion that I was having with leech, and this is her theory.
So I don't want to take credit for this, but you just spurred
something in my mind to click.
She mentioned that, like we said, the first episode, very clearly defined.
Second episode, less clear, third episode, even less clear.
She brought up the idea of what if something's going on behind the
scenes that we're not privy to yet.
And that's why things are getting more chaotic to which I told her.
I was like, maybe we are watching the exponential expansion of
a multiverse because this is taking place after the threshold.
And that could also explain.
Why the watcher is that much more curious and what's going on and why these are
less defined because these are the things.
These are the potentials that could happen, but the TVA always came in
and now they're not coming in and they're getting more and more wild.
Now
Jude: I will say that these have to be separate universes each episode.
And the only reason why I say that is rather than be connected is we see the
frozen cap before Carol James shows up.
And we know that, um, we have captain
Trey: Carter.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a great point.
These are conflicting timelines at that point.
Yeah.
You know, coming back to this idea of it being furious resolve so much of
this episode is exploring that furious idea is more than just the heroes
who compromise the prime timeline.
And so it makes me happy that this episode is book-ended with.
Fury starting the episode by practicing the speech that we're all familiar with.
And then by the time we get to the end of the episode, he's delivering a new
one with a more full-throated confidence.
So that's just a fun tie in from start to finish regarding that idea.
And you can even see it because.
Almost exactly at the halfway point, fury is doubting his belief in the idea
when they're in the coroner's office.
And he goes, there was an idea and he was kind of just exacerbated by it.
So again, very, just great pacing of all their story beats.
Yeah.
And one last thing that I wanted to touch on for again, for all of the
quibbles I may have with this episode, it really, it, it, it broke through,
I think, to a core of something that I wasn't really expecting.
There was the line that fury has, where we see the caskets of the vendors or
the, uh, candidates for the Avengers since they never really formed.
And he delivers that line of, they were an idea.
The affirmation of humanity's need to believe that in our darkest
hour, we will find our heroes.
And then that's followed up with the watcher, talking about how, as long
as somebody keeps their good eye on the big picture, hope never dies.
And, you know, we mentioned how this was a very dark episode.
I love that they brought it back to this uplifting place with those last hero or
that last one, two punch of a delivery.
And, you know, and, and opening up a little bit, like clearly the MCU
has become like an escape for me.
Like, I love these stories because of that.
You know, superhero fantasy of like clinging on to a larger idea of hope.
And I don't know, it, it, it, it, it hit me in a way I wasn't
expecting by the end of this episode.
So I do appreciate
Jude: it.
Yeah.
And you're right.
They were able to end on such an ominous feeling with low-key, but able to tie
it together with some sense of hope.
You're right.
That was really good.
So it was hope all along rather than Agatha.
Oh my gosh.
I'm on fire.
Oh, my God, you weren't.
I know this was probably still going to be in the edit, but when the, all
the stuff that's probably going to be cut out where you said, man, I like it.
That you're Luby.
And I, because that's what you get, you're saying.
Trey: I've never felt so conflicted in someone tooting their own horn.
While me also you're appreciating the song of the horn that was playing.
I liked your joke, but the speed at which you said I'm on fire.
It was amazing too.
Okay.
So how do we get back to this?
Jude: Uh, there we go to a straight thought I was getting to stray thoughts.
Okay.
Trey: So that's going to do it for the most important topics, but we're
going to round this episode off with some of our straight thoughts.
So, Jude, do you have any stray thoughts for these episodes?
Jude: Uh, I liked the shot with the watcher in the clouds.
I thought that was nice.
Yeah.
The line, probably not going to work out for anyone, a little
nod to the Avengers from banner.
I loved that.
Uh, I did think it was a nice use of Loki's powers though in the.
The way they just showed him off in the duplicating or
whatever, however, he defined it.
And low-key your theory of, are we seeing the shield too much?
We see it again.
Yeah.
It was just there.
And I thought it was cool that, you know, you and Colson had the same password.
Trey: I had a friend texted me.
Uh, he was like, Hey, tell me when you seen the episode and AZ
and I didn't watch it till late.
So it was like an evening when I finally texted him.
And I was like, Hey, I've seen it.
I've seen it.
And he just put, I heard skis and I was like, yep, I'm changing all
my passwords now I've been outed.
Jude: Oh, that's so funny.
Kevin fight you super fan.
He must've hacked your computer.
Yeah.
Getting
Trey: docs by Kevin FYGI.
What are your straight thoughts?
You know, you, you hit on one of them with the shot of the watcher.
I wanted to wrap it up and all of this, regardless of the animations.
I think the way they are composing these shots in this season is outstanding.
You mentioned the one with the watcher.
Uh, I love the one where furious standing as the shield truck drives
away with, uh, Natasha, uh, the reflection of fury and Colson as
Barton is sitting against the wall and.
The shot.
I don't know if this is the one you were talking about, but the,
uh, the one over the San Francisco bridge where the watch was just on
looking, um, really, really well done.
Jude: No, actually I was thinking of the one when Colson was driving
back with his double mocha.
Yeah.
But no, you're right.
One was the bridge.
Trey: Um, I touched on this a little bit.
The sniffing joke is weird.
I get like, I don't know the dudes dead one with like, I don't know
why they needed to show calls
Jude: and snippets.
And I know, I know they're trying to play off, you know, the God-man infinity
war thing, but it it's just weird.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't, I don't think it landed how they, how they hoped it would,
Trey: or at least for me, and definitely me too.
Uh, my last string
Jude: all as guardian smell of lavender upon death,
Trey: I think that that's an episode for another day.
Oh man.
My last stray thought.
Ben so much time talking about voice acting and the effectiveness
of different characters.
I think this is the first time where Loki's voice acting
far outpaced the animation.
And so we've seen it where like the acting didn't live up.
For example, in, in my opinion, Bucky, uh, we've seen it where it's in sync
with Michael Douglas and Hank Pym, but there was so much more emotion in Tom
Huddleston's voice as low-key in a very stilted animation of the character.
Jude: Yeah.
I completely agree with you.
Trey: Yeah.
So it was, it was, we're getting, we're getting the gambit of
results when it comes to animation,
Jude: when we've just finished watching six episodes of Loki and what he
went through and what Tom Hiddleston gave us, you know, including the
documentary assemble documentary.
So, you know, I wonder is this going to get sense?
Trey: That would be a very interesting assembled if we get it.
I hope we do.
Jude: Yeah, I do too.
I'm really enjoying this.
Trey: So, yeah, these were our thoughts on season one, episode,
three of what if, what if the world lost its mightiest heroes?
This episode was written by AC Bradley and Matthew Chauncey
and directed by Brian Andrews.
But we want to hear your stray thoughts.
So if you have any thoughts or opinions on this episode, you can always reach
us at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram, uh, we've been doing.
A lot of bonus extras on our feet as well.
So if you're enjoying this episode, there's a lot more
defined on our social media.
And of course, if you'd like to join a larger community of people, just
as excited about the MCU as we are, you can join our discord, uh, where
you can find a link in the show.
Jude: And of course, once you get to the discord, make sure you go to
the role assigned channel, click on the emojis, and you will have access
to all the spoiler channels where you can find Trey, myself, friend,
Daniel, leech, any number of wonderful people, uh, to talk about the MCU.
And of course, please leave us a rating and review on your podcast.
Catcher, make sure you follow us.
The best thing you can do for us is share with a
Trey: friend.
Yeah.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is
his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work in a SoundCloud, which
is linked in the show notes.
That's going to do it for this episode.
Thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next one.
Oh man.
I had a sparkling water.
I just burped out.
Jude: Well, I'm not so tired.
Good timing.
I don't know.
I know why.
Okay.
I woke up in the middle of the night last night.
Oh, that sucks.
Yeah.
Got it.
Trying to get a bed.
I got a cramp in my car still sore today.
Uh, that
Trey: sucks.
I hate.
Get an old, uh, okay.
Uh, so are we going to do another call to action before
we jump into the spoiler zone?
Jude: Hmm.
Is this something we want to do every episode or kind of alternate it?
Trey: Um, last week we did it,
Jude: well, I don't know what I'm asking because I'm not sure
what would be most effective.
Trey: Um, let's do it.
Okay.
And if we have a guest on, we'll skip it that week regardless, and
then just start the pattern over.
Are
Jude: we having a guest next week?
Cause if we are, we can go ahead
Trey: and do it.
Uh, we were supposed to have this week, but he couldn't make it.
And so we never, this was during last week where we didn't really
have a lot of communication, so I just never got to schedule anything.
We can try.
Is that a straw?
That's a straw.
Jude: I had my drink.
I'm readjusting the straw so I can drink it.
Oh my God.
Trey: I want a super cut of all your drinks throughout the EMC.
You need to know
Jude: history.
I'm like stark.
Stark's always eating.
I'm always drinking.
That sounds bad.
I always have a drink.
How fitting I'm like stark.
I'm always drinking.
Yeah.
Trey: That might not be the comparison.
You
Jude: know, it was a night.
Trey: Oh, I'm glad you caught it though.
Oh, I think we jump into this
Jude: way.
Okay.
Let's do that.
Okay.
We had trouble getting into the spoiler zone last week, too, but okay.
Trey: I know maybe what if is, what if Trey forgets how to transition?
Jude: No kidding.
Wow.
Okay.
Like, you've been complaining about your transitions this whole time.
Trey: I know, but usually that's room for encouragement now.
You're doing great.
Now.
Jude: I'm just it's you can't, you can't listen to me right now.
You gotta ignore me.
Trey: Okay.
All right, here we go.
I'm going to get us into the spoilers.
Jude: Oh, I didn't hit pause on the recording.
So we're now at like an hour
Trey: you did or didn't didn't yeah,
Jude: that's fine.
That's what I meant.
When I say pause.
On the stopwatch.
So I got you.
That's now useless.
Trey: That's fine.
Listen, we've crossed the threshold.
We no longer need the stopwatch.
All right.
Ooh, look, we went, what 40 episodes before we had a stopwatch?
I think we'll be fine.
Uh, so I think all I got to do is just say like, that's
going to do it for Fury's big.
What is
Jude: with your tray?
I'm at the end, I'm at the bottom.
I'm trying to get him milking it for all it's worth.
Oh, God,
Trey: I'm fine with that.
It feels like you're slurping it right
Jude: into the mind.
Cause there's a mic hanging right off my ear with the earbuds.
And so it was like right by the straw.
Yeah.
I can't talk right now because the ice in my mouth.
Oh man.
Trey: I know you said, don't listen to you at this point.
I am glad you're very loopy.
Jude: I don't know why I'm so loopy.
Trey: This, this feels like a glimpse of what it would be
like for you to do the 24 hours.
Jude: Yeah, I can imagine that.
Trey: All right.
Let me, uh, let me wrap up that important topic and we'll jump in.