WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.965 --> 00:00:06.535 Hey there. 00:00:06.595 --> 00:00:09.295 Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast. 00:00:09.415 --> 00:00:13.015 I'm your host, Adam Hatcher, the founder of 21 Clear, and 00:00:13.075 --> 00:00:14.305 on the podcast we talk about. 00:00:15.145 --> 00:00:20.485 Anything to help you chaos proof your family company today. 00:00:22.225 --> 00:00:23.485 Today we go there. 00:00:24.385 --> 00:00:29.905 I want to share an excerpt with you from a webinar that 00:00:29.905 --> 00:00:31.705 I was invited to be a part of. 00:00:31.795 --> 00:00:36.415 Uh, Kennesaw State University has a family enterprise center. 00:00:37.155 --> 00:00:42.345 I was invited to be part of a virtual panel to talk about the experience 00:00:42.405 --> 00:00:44.505 of leaving your family company. 00:00:44.955 --> 00:00:49.575 I was on there with Jacqueline Jensen and Leslie ub, both of whom 00:00:49.845 --> 00:00:55.185 left their family's com, their family's company, mid-career, to go 00:00:55.245 --> 00:00:57.255 pursue other things in the same way. 00:00:57.255 --> 00:01:02.025 I did 13 years in my family company and then started 21 Clear, a family 00:01:02.025 --> 00:01:05.355 business consulting firm, and we answer. 00:01:05.995 --> 00:01:10.885 Three questions in this excerpt and several others in the longer version. 00:01:11.305 --> 00:01:16.105 Uh, but what you're gonna hear on the podcast, Stephanie Davis from the Family 00:01:16.105 --> 00:01:22.915 Enterprise Center, asks me was the process of leaving acute or gradual. 00:01:22.945 --> 00:01:25.645 So that's where we're gonna pick up where Stephanie's asked me that. 00:01:26.125 --> 00:01:30.685 And then you're gonna get to listen through all three of us, me, Jacqueline, 00:01:30.685 --> 00:01:35.395 and Leslie being asked, what was the emotional impact of leaving. 00:01:36.355 --> 00:01:42.415 Then if you could do it over again, what would you change or what would 00:01:42.415 --> 00:01:44.275 you tell yourself or somebody else? 00:01:45.385 --> 00:01:49.705 That's what you're gonna get in this podcast, the three of us talking 00:01:49.705 --> 00:01:54.595 about those three things, gradual or acute emotional impact and do over. 00:01:55.645 --> 00:01:57.085 I hope you enjoy this. 00:01:57.505 --> 00:02:01.405 I had a lot of fun in the conversation and not a lot of people go here. 00:02:01.645 --> 00:02:05.215 So I hope it is helpful to you in your family company journey. 00:02:06.270 --> 00:02:07.170 it's gradual. 00:02:07.170 --> 00:02:07.980 It's interesting. 00:02:07.980 --> 00:02:08.610 Stephanie. 00:02:08.700 --> 00:02:14.220 Um, hey, I, for everybody who's logged in, uh, on behalf of, uh, Leslie, 00:02:14.220 --> 00:02:15.720 me and Jacqueline, thank y'all. 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:17.970 Um, I have, see I. 00:02:18.195 --> 00:02:20.715 I joined the family company in 2010. 00:02:21.225 --> 00:02:24.375 I've been doing family business consulting about two, three years now. 00:02:24.705 --> 00:02:27.975 This is the first time I've seen people openly willing to log into something like 00:02:27.975 --> 00:02:30.975 this and talk and also to participate. 00:02:30.975 --> 00:02:34.125 And if y'all have read the chat along the way, we have people 00:02:34.125 --> 00:02:35.445 that are onboarding family. 00:02:35.595 --> 00:02:37.395 We have people who are thinking of leaving. 00:02:37.725 --> 00:02:41.475 We have people who are thinking of leaving because their life has to change 00:02:41.655 --> 00:02:43.395 or they need to go start something else. 00:02:43.635 --> 00:02:45.765 I bet you somebody has someone they need to off. 00:02:45.795 --> 00:02:47.430 I think someone had someone they need to offboard. 00:02:49.110 --> 00:02:52.440 Um, here's the thing, Stephanie, I wish someone had told 00:02:52.440 --> 00:02:55.380 me when I started in 2010. 00:02:56.430 --> 00:03:01.530 Alright, so 13 years in my own family's company, three generations. 00:03:02.010 --> 00:03:04.950 Y'all know that when you work in a family business, you 00:03:04.950 --> 00:03:06.305 get this when magical ticket. 00:03:07.470 --> 00:03:11.370 And that magical ticket lets you talk to any other person who 00:03:11.370 --> 00:03:15.030 works with their family, no matter their revenue compared to yours. 00:03:15.870 --> 00:03:18.810 And you get to have really honest conversations. 00:03:19.110 --> 00:03:23.310 I've gotten to sit with people who are doing a few million top line to 00:03:23.310 --> 00:03:29.400 people valued at $30 billion plus, and like me, Leslie, and Jacqueline, 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:31.230 it's across industries as well. 00:03:31.875 --> 00:03:37.155 Stephanie, I wish the day I had started, somebody said to me, you will 00:03:37.155 --> 00:03:39.165 meet families from all over one day. 00:03:39.165 --> 00:03:42.435 Adam, you will end up doing this work and you will work with families and you will 00:03:42.435 --> 00:03:44.505 study families of all different spectrums. 00:03:44.625 --> 00:03:48.525 And there's one thing guaranteed when you work with your family, if one day 00:03:48.525 --> 00:03:51.915 you choose to work with your family, I promise you in all my experience, 00:03:51.915 --> 00:03:57.510 research and knowledge, one day you're not going to like, you're going to leave. 00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:00.450 It's gonna be over one day. 00:04:01.230 --> 00:04:05.700 And Jacqueline and Leslie, I was listening to y'all and it's interesting that we can 00:04:05.700 --> 00:04:10.380 get lost in that because it's your family. 00:04:10.440 --> 00:04:14.820 I mean, I grew up around the business and you start to think that it's, you 00:04:14.820 --> 00:04:18.870 can start to think it's inevitable or there are no options outside of it. 00:04:18.990 --> 00:04:22.020 I still remember sitting with a second gen. 00:04:22.575 --> 00:04:28.665 Who they were trying to earn their way to the top job and they felt that their 00:04:28.665 --> 00:04:30.615 mother was just never gonna retire. 00:04:31.605 --> 00:04:35.115 And I remember they said to me, yeah, but Adam, I'm trapped. 00:04:35.565 --> 00:04:37.005 I can't go anywhere. 00:04:38.325 --> 00:04:40.245 And, and two things happened at once for me. 00:04:40.395 --> 00:04:42.225 One, I knew what they meant. 00:04:42.675 --> 00:04:44.715 I know it can feel inevitable. 00:04:45.375 --> 00:04:48.735 When it is your family's company, depe, particularly, depending on 00:04:48.735 --> 00:04:49.935 how much you've invested in it. 00:04:50.955 --> 00:04:53.685 But also I had to say to him, no you're not. 00:04:54.165 --> 00:04:54.345 Mm-hmm. 00:04:54.975 --> 00:04:58.035 It's a job, like it's way heavier than that. 00:04:58.035 --> 00:04:58.425 Right. 00:04:58.515 --> 00:04:59.805 But it is a job. 00:04:59.805 --> 00:05:03.525 And what's interesting, what was interesting for me, 00:05:05.535 --> 00:05:13.005 my, when I was in law school, uh, and as happens in family companies. 00:05:13.380 --> 00:05:14.790 This happened out of nowhere. 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:20.250 My father sent a letter to me, my brother who was in college, and my sister who was 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:25.500 in high school, and it said, I don't know if the Lord's ever gonna call you to come 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:28.530 to the family company, if you're ever gonna feel it's a calling on your life. 00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:34.800 But if so, these five things need to be true before you can join the company. 00:05:36.015 --> 00:05:36.525 For him. 00:05:36.525 --> 00:05:40.725 Now, this won't be everybody else's list, and hopefully this is helpful as, um, 00:05:40.755 --> 00:05:45.705 somebody said that they were onboarding a family member, and this is specific. 00:05:46.665 --> 00:05:49.305 To the company and where it was at the time, and the type 00:05:49.305 --> 00:05:50.565 of clients in the industry. 00:05:50.565 --> 00:05:54.045 But he said, you need to graduate from high school, college, graduate degree, 00:05:54.285 --> 00:06:00.765 degree, work somewhere else, get a promotion, and your personal beliefs 00:06:00.765 --> 00:06:02.985 have to be aligned with Christian values. 00:06:03.135 --> 00:06:06.435 'cause a lot of the core values of our family's company line 00:06:06.435 --> 00:06:08.895 up with Judeo-Christian values. 00:06:09.345 --> 00:06:12.045 And so what he was trying to do was make sure that you 00:06:12.045 --> 00:06:13.725 were on an upward trajectory. 00:06:13.990 --> 00:06:16.540 And you aligned with the core values of the business. 00:06:17.170 --> 00:06:20.920 That's got nothing to do with, are you a good lawyer qualified to 00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:22.960 analyze a corporate risk profile? 00:06:23.170 --> 00:06:23.560 Right? 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.190 So it was family hiring criteria before joining. 00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:30.910 But what was Stephanie, what was important about that to leaving is it 00:06:30.910 --> 00:06:37.570 made, joining a gradual process and thus it did two things and I didn't realize 00:06:37.570 --> 00:06:38.945 the wisdom in it when it happened. 00:06:40.440 --> 00:06:44.220 I always knew I and he, I talked about this when I was there. 00:06:44.550 --> 00:06:47.940 He said, Adam, I graduated from the University of Georgia on Friday 00:06:47.940 --> 00:06:49.080 and I went to work on Monday. 00:06:50.460 --> 00:06:54.930 The only person who ever gave me a raise was my dad, and sometimes 00:06:54.930 --> 00:06:56.550 I had to buy my raise from him. 00:06:58.020 --> 00:07:02.520 He said, I want, he said, I want you, I want your siblings. 00:07:02.520 --> 00:07:08.220 I want any other family members to know that you have value beyond my eyes and 00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:10.650 you have options outside of this company. 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:16.290 And when I was leaving, I actually went back ahead of this and I looked over, 00:07:16.290 --> 00:07:20.490 I still have my script from the call with, we had about 20 senior leaders on 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:22.800 a Zoom call, uh, when we announced it. 00:07:23.010 --> 00:07:24.390 And I still have my script from it. 00:07:25.260 --> 00:07:28.800 Something I would recommend to anybody leaving write it down. 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:31.620 And I told them something. 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:37.650 I don't think I'd ever told them that because it was never guaranteed 00:07:37.650 --> 00:07:40.380 I would join every single year. 00:07:40.710 --> 00:07:43.560 I asked myself and my wife and I asked ourselves, is this 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:44.820 where we're supposed to be? 00:07:45.510 --> 00:07:48.630 It helped to differentiate from the company. 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:49.770 It is. 00:07:49.770 --> 00:07:51.900 So you're gonna ask us later about identity. 00:07:51.900 --> 00:07:54.210 Stephanie, any smart thing? 00:07:54.780 --> 00:07:58.650 It sounds like I say I promise it just made it a little less hard. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.030 Like you can do everything you can to keep your identity separate from 00:08:03.030 --> 00:08:05.580 the company and you're still gonna over identify it in the ways other 00:08:05.580 --> 00:08:07.080 people struggle to understand. 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:14.640 Um, but because it was not inevitable to join, I also always was refreshing 00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:17.130 the decision, is this the right thing? 00:08:17.640 --> 00:08:21.960 My father and I were actually really open about that in annual reviews. 00:08:23.295 --> 00:08:25.125 I shared that with the senior leaders on the way out. 00:08:25.125 --> 00:08:31.905 It may seem like it's inevitable for a third gen to keep going, but it was a 00:08:31.905 --> 00:08:40.455 gradual process and we, one thing for y'all that helped it to unfold in a chaos 00:08:40.455 --> 00:08:44.115 proof fashion, that's, I wrote a book called The Chaos Proof Family Business 00:08:45.195 --> 00:08:48.735 is These conversations evolve through family meetings and Leslie Jacqueline, 00:08:48.735 --> 00:08:50.025 I don't know if y'all had those. 00:08:50.745 --> 00:08:55.845 But I've probably got 20 years of family meetings, so not company meetings, not 00:08:56.205 --> 00:09:00.135 you know, family vacation meetings, but amongst those of us who worked in 00:09:00.135 --> 00:09:03.495 the business and the family members who own the business, we did 'em 00:09:03.495 --> 00:09:05.205 manually and then we did 'EM quarterly. 00:09:05.205 --> 00:09:07.395 And then there are times where we've done 'em more often. 00:09:07.785 --> 00:09:12.075 Like this question, Stephanie, is something we were forced to answer 00:09:12.075 --> 00:09:14.475 to each other in those meetings. 00:09:15.345 --> 00:09:15.735 As family member. 00:09:15.735 --> 00:09:16.815 I think that's wonderful. 00:09:16.845 --> 00:09:18.495 That's, yeah, I think that's great. 00:09:18.735 --> 00:09:19.365 It was, yeah. 00:09:19.515 --> 00:09:22.995 So that is, it was a gradual process and that's part of how it unfolded. 00:09:23.775 --> 00:09:24.165 Yeah. 00:09:25.155 --> 00:09:29.655 That's a great segue into our next little bit of a topic here, because 00:09:29.685 --> 00:09:31.875 leaving a job is one thing, right? 00:09:31.875 --> 00:09:35.685 But leaving a family business is something else altogether. 00:09:35.685 --> 00:09:36.975 So Adam, I'll keep it on you. 00:09:36.975 --> 00:09:39.255 What was the hardest part for you emotionally? 00:09:40.695 --> 00:09:42.855 Oh, so you brought the easy question to me. 00:09:42.945 --> 00:09:43.365 Okay. 00:09:43.365 --> 00:09:43.515 All right. 00:09:43.515 --> 00:09:43.665 Thanks. 00:09:46.245 --> 00:09:53.295 Okay, so for those of you who are, if you're hiring family, um, I. 00:09:55.140 --> 00:09:57.420 Ultimately you may have, they are going to move on. 00:09:57.420 --> 00:09:59.940 You're gonna move on, or you may have to help them move on. 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:06.510 Um, if you have not done this yet, if you have not left yet, or if you have not been 00:10:06.510 --> 00:10:11.160 responsible for a family member leaving, I wanna put this on a continuum for you. 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:16.815 I had, before I joined the family company, I think 11 different jobs. 00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:20.070 For free pay or school credit. 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:25.680 So that means 11, 12, 13 times I have left a job. 00:10:26.130 --> 00:10:29.520 So if you think about, if, if you can see me on the video here, I'm 00:10:29.520 --> 00:10:30.990 kind of splitting my fingers apart. 00:10:31.290 --> 00:10:33.870 Like on this side, on the right side. 00:10:34.050 --> 00:10:34.980 Is that you're right. 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:36.000 Or, I don't know what that is. 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:36.060 Yeah. 00:10:36.645 --> 00:10:36.935 Okay. 00:10:38.970 --> 00:10:43.140 Let's just say on the left side, on the, on the left side of this line 00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:45.450 or this continuum, it's just like. 00:10:46.275 --> 00:10:49.935 The normal emotional impact of moving from one job to another. 00:10:50.655 --> 00:10:52.155 I mean, sometimes it's great. 00:10:52.665 --> 00:10:53.865 You move, it's easy. 00:10:54.315 --> 00:10:57.135 You're getting a promotion, you're getting the job you wanted. 00:10:57.135 --> 00:11:00.315 You were in a temporary placeholder job, and now you're in a more permanent 00:11:00.315 --> 00:11:03.315 position and there's a little bit of grief that can go with that. 00:11:03.345 --> 00:11:04.725 You may miss your coworkers. 00:11:04.725 --> 00:11:09.315 You may wish you had done it earlier, but it doesn't carry 00:11:09.315 --> 00:11:10.635 a lot of emotional weight. 00:11:11.265 --> 00:11:12.705 Then I want you to go to the far. 00:11:13.290 --> 00:11:14.580 The far right side. 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:15.570 So that was the left side. 00:11:15.630 --> 00:11:19.440 Go to the far right side with me, and that's the emotional 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.130 impact of a profound family loss. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.650 This can be death, disability, estrangement. 00:11:29.490 --> 00:11:33.150 Okay, so on one end you've got the emotional impact of a loss, 00:11:33.510 --> 00:11:34.530 but it's kind of transactional. 00:11:35.385 --> 00:11:40.215 And, and depending, and depending on how long you were in the job, it may move 00:11:40.215 --> 00:11:44.445 you more toward the middle, depending on how much you were invested, how much 00:11:44.445 --> 00:11:46.095 of your lifestyle is caught up in it. 00:11:46.485 --> 00:11:49.815 Leaving and moving or losing a job does carry an impact, whether 00:11:49.815 --> 00:11:51.015 it was your decision or not. 00:11:51.885 --> 00:11:56.985 But when you decide when you work with family, what we've done is we have mixed 00:11:57.015 --> 00:12:01.215 the unconditional nature of business with the conditional nature of family. 00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:04.920 Which is what creates this emotional impact. 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:09.960 And when you exit a family company, it's probably going to be on the 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:15.030 right side, even if you do it the right way at the right time. 00:12:15.030 --> 00:12:15.845 Stephanie, I met a guy. 00:12:17.115 --> 00:12:21.825 He had a successful career as a third gener, second generation, CEO. 00:12:22.035 --> 00:12:23.565 He was second gen, CEO. 00:12:24.285 --> 00:12:29.175 He saw his succession as a process, so he had his board involved. 00:12:29.325 --> 00:12:34.425 He had a consultant involved and his son was next in line, but they were 00:12:34.425 --> 00:12:37.245 responsible for evaluating it and. 00:12:38.115 --> 00:12:42.165 It was, you would think he's kind of toward the left side, right? 00:12:42.165 --> 00:12:47.055 This is sounding intellectual and cerebral, and he's gonna do it easily. 00:12:48.165 --> 00:12:51.525 Y'all, his consultant came back to him and said, uh, good news, bad news. 00:12:51.735 --> 00:12:57.345 Your son is qualified to take over for you, and the board agrees with me. 00:12:58.215 --> 00:13:01.305 However, we also agree that you're a steamroller. 00:13:02.490 --> 00:13:07.350 And if you are still in place when your son becomes CEO, you will 00:13:07.350 --> 00:13:10.410 bulldoze your son, injuring the company and your relationship. 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:13.080 So as of today, you are no longer CEO. 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:14.580 Congratulations on your retirement. 00:13:16.110 --> 00:13:18.780 And just like that, he was outta the business. 00:13:18.780 --> 00:13:21.720 And we were talking about two years after that happened. 00:13:22.110 --> 00:13:24.240 He's like, Adam, it took me a year to get my head around it. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.140 Like all of a sudden he went from thinking this and it was over here. 00:13:29.010 --> 00:13:32.610 Your experience or your family member's experience? 00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:33.900 It's gonna depend. 00:13:34.050 --> 00:13:37.830 Jacqueline, you were sharing some earlier, like what did you, how 00:13:37.830 --> 00:13:41.190 much were you involved, how much it was part of your identity? 00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:42.540 How long have you been there? 00:13:43.050 --> 00:13:45.990 It's on a continuum and. 00:13:47.715 --> 00:13:49.425 Yeah, it, it, it's on it. 00:13:49.425 --> 00:13:51.315 And none of us hit the same place. 00:13:51.315 --> 00:13:52.875 It can even be what you gave up. 00:13:53.235 --> 00:13:57.165 And so if you have one family, like when my cousin left, my cousin left, 00:13:57.165 --> 00:14:02.535 and she's now CHRO of a Fortune 200 company, that's one exit When somebody 00:14:02.535 --> 00:14:07.575 else leaves in any family company, it may be a totally different circumstance 00:14:07.785 --> 00:14:09.225 with a totally different impact. 00:14:09.495 --> 00:14:10.395 So I think it's important. 00:14:10.395 --> 00:14:13.155 Stephanie, please, if you haven't done this before, it's 00:14:13.155 --> 00:14:14.625 not just a cerebral decision. 00:14:16.245 --> 00:14:16.845 For sure. 00:14:16.935 --> 00:14:17.355 Yeah. 00:14:17.595 --> 00:14:21.135 Jacqueline, you wanna touch a little bit on the emotional impact 00:14:21.135 --> 00:14:22.635 that it had on you when you left? 00:14:23.805 --> 00:14:24.165 Yeah. 00:14:24.165 --> 00:14:24.975 You don't want to, it's okay. 00:14:26.865 --> 00:14:27.735 No, absolutely. 00:14:27.735 --> 00:14:29.565 I'm happy to share it and I'll try and touch. 00:14:29.565 --> 00:14:32.955 I do wanna piggyback off of, um, what Adam said a little bit. 00:14:32.985 --> 00:14:37.425 'cause we really connected over this and, and just reiterate, because I saw it 00:14:37.455 --> 00:14:44.565 several times in the chat to reiterate the importance of, um, clear communication. 00:14:45.765 --> 00:14:50.175 And anytime you're in a family business, um, Adam states it very 00:14:50.175 --> 00:14:53.595 well, I'm not gonna state it the exact same way Adam does, 'cause I can't. 00:14:53.955 --> 00:14:58.695 Um, but, um, the way I typically state it is when you're working in 00:14:58.695 --> 00:15:03.015 a family business, you're wearing three hats generally, right? 00:15:03.015 --> 00:15:04.065 You're a family member, 00:15:06.465 --> 00:15:08.955 you're an owner if you have any equity. 00:15:09.285 --> 00:15:12.465 So even though I was not primary owner, I had an equity in the business. 00:15:13.605 --> 00:15:15.795 Um, and then I would, you're an employee. 00:15:15.975 --> 00:15:19.695 You wear a seat or maybe two or three depending on your family 00:15:19.695 --> 00:15:21.855 business in the organization. 00:15:23.025 --> 00:15:30.165 And so to have appropriate communication and, and meeting cadence, um, with 00:15:31.005 --> 00:15:36.255 each of those hats individually and being incredibly clear about what hat 00:15:36.255 --> 00:15:38.595 you're wearing in the conversation. 00:15:39.315 --> 00:15:39.645 Right. 00:15:39.645 --> 00:15:42.525 Is this a family conversation? 00:15:43.935 --> 00:15:50.235 I'm a family member and the dynamics of the family come into 00:15:50.235 --> 00:15:51.915 play with that conversation. 00:15:52.275 --> 00:15:52.575 Right? 00:15:52.665 --> 00:15:57.465 Or are we having conversations as owners about the business and 00:15:57.465 --> 00:16:00.465 what the future of the business is and how to operate this business? 00:16:01.785 --> 00:16:07.755 Or are we having conversations as employees wearing our specific hat 00:16:07.875 --> 00:16:11.295 or hats sometimes in family business. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:18.750 Being really, really clear about what hat you're wearing when, uh, saying 00:16:18.750 --> 00:16:22.590 I, it is been said many times, but I say, right to be clear, is to be kind. 00:16:24.300 --> 00:16:28.470 And so put on that hat, have the clear conversation, be open 00:16:28.470 --> 00:16:34.080 and honest, whether it's in the business or in the family circle. 00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:41.370 Um, so that expectations align and that individuals. 00:16:41.880 --> 00:16:46.530 Can make decisions that are best for themselves and their families. 00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:51.210 And that's not necessarily tied to family itself, right? 00:16:52.020 --> 00:16:56.910 Um, it's our own identity because it's so common in family business, 00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:01.950 um, to have your, as Adam said, to have your identity tied to it. 00:17:01.950 --> 00:17:06.300 Especially when you come into a family business as a next gen or sec, you 00:17:06.300 --> 00:17:10.200 know, second gen, next gen, whatever that generation is, you grew up in it. 00:17:10.950 --> 00:17:15.450 Then you come into it so early, oftentimes, I, I also love what 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:20.850 Adam, um, has researched and shares of like the importance of setting 00:17:20.850 --> 00:17:24.510 those boundaries of what's required before coming into a family business. 00:17:25.020 --> 00:17:27.750 Um, and the idea of like, go work somewhere else. 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:31.590 Have them go work somewhere else for five years and learn what it's 00:17:31.590 --> 00:17:33.570 like to work without a safety net. 00:17:34.425 --> 00:17:38.355 And work for a boss who doesn't have the same love and admiration 00:17:38.355 --> 00:17:41.085 for you as your parents do, right? 00:17:41.685 --> 00:17:43.755 Like, go experience that. 00:17:43.755 --> 00:17:46.695 And then if you still wanna come into the family business, let's talk 00:17:46.695 --> 00:17:50.145 about what other, um, boxes need to be checked in order to do that. 00:17:50.145 --> 00:17:54.105 I think that that's a phenomenal, um, way to approach it, but every 00:17:54.105 --> 00:17:55.335 family's going to be different. 00:17:56.865 --> 00:18:00.705 Um, but tying back to identity, like for me specifically, I 00:18:00.705 --> 00:18:02.115 grew up in that family business. 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.690 There was no clear lines between family, employee, or owners. 00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:10.470 Um, everything was just business for us. 00:18:10.890 --> 00:18:16.650 And then I was essentially felt obligated to come work for the family business 00:18:16.950 --> 00:18:19.590 and that just became who I was, right? 00:18:19.860 --> 00:18:20.490 Every day. 00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:22.800 Um, how can we, how can I make my parents proud? 00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:24.780 How can I lead this business well? 00:18:25.110 --> 00:18:29.610 Um, how can I learn new skills and how can I go home and take care of my family? 00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:31.380 Um, and. 00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:34.440 It just became so much of who I was. 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:42.240 So when that decision came, um, where I ultimately decided to leave, I had 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.130 so much peace because I pondered on at what expense is this worth it for 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:53.040 so long, and when the outcome wasn't what had been promised, the decision 00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:57.540 to leave was so clear and so I had a lot of peace in the decision, but 00:18:57.540 --> 00:19:00.780 I had so much work to do personally. 00:19:01.425 --> 00:19:06.885 To kind of emotionally recover from that decision and figure out who I 00:19:06.885 --> 00:19:10.965 was and what I wanted to do and how I wanted to still serve people and 00:19:11.475 --> 00:19:15.615 um, and take care of entrepreneurs, which I've now landed on my feet. 00:19:15.705 --> 00:19:22.575 But, um, that is, it's a, I was so tied to who I was in that family business, 00:19:22.575 --> 00:19:27.675 and I still catch myself some days thinking like, oh, I can, I can do 00:19:27.675 --> 00:19:29.955 this, or I can go do, and I'm like, no. 00:19:30.465 --> 00:19:32.115 My stepfather's not my boss. 00:19:32.865 --> 00:19:35.325 Um, or no, I don't need to respond that way. 00:19:35.325 --> 00:19:37.785 I don't have to protect anyone. 00:19:37.875 --> 00:19:38.115 Right. 00:19:38.145 --> 00:19:41.745 I'm not still be kind, but, right. 00:19:41.775 --> 00:19:46.575 Um, so it's, I mean, it is, it's, it's a big adjustment. 00:19:46.575 --> 00:19:52.515 So I just go back to anyone in the chat who is at any point in this process 00:19:52.515 --> 00:19:55.905 of thinking about working for the business, working in the business. 00:19:56.430 --> 00:20:00.540 Or you know, thinking of bringing the next gen in or exiting the business. 00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:05.880 Like just the importance of clear communication and beginning to 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:11.850 work through what that will be like emotionally, um, for all parties involved. 00:20:11.850 --> 00:20:15.060 'cause there's the other dynamic of the leading generation too. 00:20:16.050 --> 00:20:18.480 Yeah, that's a, that's really good advice. 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.420 Um, Leslie, I'm gonna pop it over to you. 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:25.470 If you wanna touch on the emotional aspect and then also how kind of 00:20:25.620 --> 00:20:29.760 pig tailing, pigtail, dovetailing off of what Jacqueline just said. 00:20:29.790 --> 00:20:34.650 Um, how did you approach that conversation, both at home and 00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:36.480 um, in the family business? 00:20:37.020 --> 00:20:37.560 Sure. 00:20:38.100 --> 00:20:46.380 Um, the hardest part emotionally for me was first admitting to myself that 00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:50.610 I was never going to succeed in taking over that family business and being 00:20:50.610 --> 00:20:52.650 able to detach from that identity. 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:58.140 That was by far the hardest part, and I needed some tools to help me with that. 00:20:58.620 --> 00:20:59.640 Um, I. 00:21:00.405 --> 00:21:03.805 Found a great resource in Emily P. 00:21:03.805 --> 00:21:06.495 Freeman, who teaches discernment and decision making. 00:21:07.155 --> 00:21:13.395 She wrote a book called How to Walk Into a Room, and it is a guide for 00:21:13.395 --> 00:21:14.925 knowing when to stay and when to go. 00:21:14.985 --> 00:21:16.935 The art of knowing when to stay and when to go. 00:21:17.025 --> 00:21:19.155 And there's just some very practical, applicable, 00:21:21.300 --> 00:21:28.965 um, discernment and decision making tools that kind of guide you through knowing. 00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:33.480 How to walk into a room, and when you walk out of the room you're in, you're 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:38.940 oftentimes not walking into like a proverbial or metaphorical new room. 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.670 Sometimes you're walking into a hallway, a transition time, and how to live well 00:21:44.670 --> 00:21:48.750 through these sorts of transitions of life where a series of rooms or a house. 00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:54.000 So I highly recommend that to, uh, help you get a handle on being clear 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.110 with yourself because you can't have those conversations if you can't 00:21:58.110 --> 00:22:00.240 have that clarity in your own mind. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.560 You don't have any language. 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:10.050 And, um, you've got to be able to, as Jacqueline said, be clear so 00:22:10.050 --> 00:22:12.450 that you can be kind to everyone. 00:22:13.050 --> 00:22:17.550 And so when I started to approach those conversations. 00:22:18.255 --> 00:22:26.745 It was, it had to be for me, just a, um, a statement of fact. 00:22:27.075 --> 00:22:34.815 I am feeling, uh, pulled towards landscape architecture again, and 00:22:34.815 --> 00:22:40.500 I am feeling the need for my own health insurance plan and 401k. 00:22:41.445 --> 00:22:45.135 And I don't think that these things are available to me here. 00:22:45.495 --> 00:22:52.155 So I am going to update my portfolio, one tiny thing, and I just said I'm, 00:22:52.155 --> 00:22:53.715 I'm going to update my portfolio. 00:22:54.225 --> 00:22:55.035 And that's all I did. 00:22:55.665 --> 00:23:00.315 And then the next conversation was I got some good feedback on my portfolio. 00:23:00.915 --> 00:23:05.025 Um, I've noticed that in the job listings, there are a few things 00:23:05.025 --> 00:23:06.015 that would be a fit for me. 00:23:07.065 --> 00:23:08.685 I'm going to apply for these jobs. 00:23:09.090 --> 00:23:11.460 It was step by step very clear. 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:16.440 I did not justify the my reason for leaving other than to say, I need this 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:21.510 thing, but before I could have any of these tiny step conversations or be 00:23:21.510 --> 00:23:26.430 clear with, I need this thing, so I'm gonna take this tiny action, I had 00:23:26.430 --> 00:23:29.550 to be clear with myself, and that's how I approached the conversation. 00:23:29.550 --> 00:23:33.150 I had to have the conversation inside before I could have any 00:23:33.150 --> 00:23:34.560 of the conversations outside. 00:23:36.630 --> 00:23:40.020 All right, we are coming up on time, but I did wanna ask just, 00:23:40.050 --> 00:23:41.700 um, a couple more quick ones. 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:44.130 Um, maybe Leslie, you could take this one. 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:45.660 If you could go back. 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:48.510 Would you handle anything differently or you feel, you feel pretty 00:23:48.510 --> 00:23:49.620 good about how it all went down? 00:23:51.015 --> 00:23:52.155 I like the way I left. 00:23:52.395 --> 00:23:54.825 I'm proud of the way that I left. 00:23:55.425 --> 00:24:00.315 Um, it's important however anyone decides to make any change in their life that 00:24:00.315 --> 00:24:05.955 you, uh, do it from your own integrity that you can go to sleep at night. 00:24:05.985 --> 00:24:11.355 Look yourself in the mirror the next day and know that you handled it the best way 00:24:11.385 --> 00:24:15.735 you could handle it, and you're proud of yourself for the way you did handle it. 00:24:15.950 --> 00:24:19.220 Yeah, I am actually terrible at transparency. 00:24:19.580 --> 00:24:25.610 I would much rather manipulate the situation in a kind and, um, 00:24:26.030 --> 00:24:28.250 you know, ethical way, of course. 00:24:28.760 --> 00:24:32.300 Uh, but I would much rather convince you that what I need is also what 00:24:32.300 --> 00:24:35.780 you need and not have to ask for it. 00:24:36.830 --> 00:24:43.490 So, um, I'm really, really grateful for, um. 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:47.970 I don't know. 00:24:48.035 --> 00:24:49.590 I, I, I can't take credit for it. 00:24:49.590 --> 00:24:54.210 I, I honestly feel like it was divine, the preparation that was 00:24:54.270 --> 00:24:59.490 available to me, to one, get ready to leave and then recover after I left. 00:24:59.550 --> 00:25:02.070 Um, another resource that I could throw out there, if someone's 00:25:02.070 --> 00:25:06.060 looking for some tools in this is called the Next Right Thing. 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.280 And it is, uh, also by Emily P. 00:25:10.280 --> 00:25:10.590 Freeman. 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:11.460 That's what she does. 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.620 She's in the discernment and decision making process. 00:25:14.385 --> 00:25:19.905 These, um, the next right thing is a tool that I would recommend to anyone who is 00:25:19.905 --> 00:25:26.085 looking for how to, um, be proud of the way that they move about in the world. 00:25:26.745 --> 00:25:31.305 Because if you have that level of integrity, then I feel like you, no 00:25:31.305 --> 00:25:36.015 matter what happens or how difficult it is, you'll have that solid core 00:25:36.075 --> 00:25:40.395 of who I am at my deepest values and that I moved out from there. 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:43.245 I think if I can grab, thank you. 00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:44.430 Yes, definitely. 00:25:44.430 --> 00:25:44.970 Yeah, please go ahead. 00:25:45.030 --> 00:25:48.630 I was just gonna say, I appreciated Leslie sharing those with me before we went on 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.180 so that we can a great, a great takeaway. 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:52.200 But yeah, Adam, go ahead. 00:25:52.590 --> 00:25:57.390 Yeah, so Leslie I, something you said and then that Jacqueline said that I loved, 00:25:57.390 --> 00:26:00.750 like I was talking to a family recently and this was something that somebody gave 00:26:00.750 --> 00:26:02.985 to me when I was stepping away as well. 00:26:03.255 --> 00:26:06.300 They said, I want you to imagine, and I told somebody this last week 00:26:06.300 --> 00:26:09.540 who was really struggling with their aunt and was thinking about leaving. 00:26:09.540 --> 00:26:12.630 I said, I want you to imagine there's a video camera behind you. 00:26:13.665 --> 00:26:17.655 I want you to imagine it's gonna film you for the next eight months, and then in 00:26:17.655 --> 00:26:21.735 six years we're gonna show it to your sons and they're gonna see everything you said, 00:26:21.735 --> 00:26:24.765 everything you texted, everything you emailed, every family meeting y'all had. 00:26:25.395 --> 00:26:27.645 Are you gonna be proud of how you showed up? 00:26:28.125 --> 00:26:30.975 Are you gonna be proud of how you, because it's really hard depending 00:26:30.975 --> 00:26:34.125 on the situation, but will you be proud of how you showed up? 00:26:34.125 --> 00:26:35.835 I'm not talking about anybody else. 00:26:36.075 --> 00:26:36.225 Right? 00:26:36.225 --> 00:26:39.855 And one of the things that helps people do that, Jacqueline, is what you said. 00:26:41.100 --> 00:26:44.400 Why start planning for family exits now? 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:45.870 'cause it's going to happen. 00:26:46.170 --> 00:26:47.940 The timing is not necessarily yours. 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:51.900 Even if you hired a board consultant, but Jacqueline, your 00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.270 story about an off ramp family. 00:26:54.365 --> 00:26:57.300 I, I talked to a family recently 'cause their lawyer called me and 00:26:57.300 --> 00:26:58.680 said, I need you to talk to my client. 00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:00.840 They, they called me for a severance agreement for a 00:27:00.840 --> 00:27:02.850 family member and it was cheap. 00:27:03.345 --> 00:27:04.110 I'm just gonna be honest. 00:27:04.950 --> 00:27:08.760 I said, and the first thing I said to 'em was, listen, you're gonna give this family 00:27:08.760 --> 00:27:12.240 member you want to as best you can with the revenue and margin of your business. 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.490 Give them a, give them the chance to breathe. 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:16.170 Don't upend their life. 00:27:17.070 --> 00:27:20.010 Give them a reason to call a financial manager versus an attorney. 00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:24.720 I've been called in that situation too, and that's the chaotic situation. 00:27:25.260 --> 00:27:29.070 So one, a camera following you around is a great visual for people 00:27:29.070 --> 00:27:31.860 when you start thinking about exiting a family member or exiting. 00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:37.470 But, and it's interesting, Jacqueline, I talked to, it was a brother and sister 00:27:37.470 --> 00:27:38.910 and they had just bought their mother out. 00:27:39.750 --> 00:27:42.840 And so you would think that they wanted to work on, hey, let's put 00:27:42.840 --> 00:27:46.590 some governance around how we hire family, how we compensate each other. 00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:48.240 Do we run family meetings? 00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:49.560 One of 'em actually said. 00:27:50.025 --> 00:27:51.345 I wanna create an off ramp. 00:27:52.215 --> 00:27:55.635 'cause I don't know, with mom gone, if we're gonna like each other and y'all, it 00:27:55.635 --> 00:28:02.445 felt so early to plan for exiting, but you don't know when it's coming and you don't 00:28:02.445 --> 00:28:04.815 want to have those conversations live. 00:28:05.355 --> 00:28:08.205 So you, if you don't have family meetings, I would say do it. 00:28:08.475 --> 00:28:12.915 Bring a facilitator with you to get the ball rolling and things like off 00:28:12.915 --> 00:28:14.835 ramp camera following you around. 00:28:15.345 --> 00:28:18.190 Like those are really helpful ideas to start getting in front of your family. 00:28:19.845 --> 00:28:24.615 The Family Enterprise Center at Kennesaw State does an incredible job of 00:28:24.615 --> 00:28:28.755 providing resources for family companies, whether you own a family company, work 00:28:28.755 --> 00:28:34.335 together, or like on this episode, are a former member of a family company. 00:28:35.295 --> 00:28:40.785 It's always still around, and so Kennesaw State does a great 00:28:40.785 --> 00:28:42.975 job of providing resources. 00:28:42.975 --> 00:28:44.835 This webinar was just one example. 00:28:45.225 --> 00:28:49.845 If you go to the show notes, we will link to the full episode. 00:28:49.845 --> 00:28:51.195 It's about an hour long. 00:28:51.825 --> 00:28:53.505 We got into three questions here. 00:28:54.810 --> 00:28:56.070 There are several more. 00:28:56.070 --> 00:28:59.370 There's some longer explanations, some really interesting stories that get 00:28:59.370 --> 00:29:03.480 shared, so I encourage you to go watch the whole webinar when you have time, 00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:05.340 and I hope this was helpful to you. 00:29:06.270 --> 00:29:09.750 The 21 Clear Podcast every time you listen to it. 00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:15.510 My hope is it helps you take just a few minutes to think about how your family 00:29:15.510 --> 00:29:18.090 works in and owns the company together. 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:23.280 That unique dynamic is your inner family business that sits inside your 00:29:23.280 --> 00:29:27.960 family company and the health of it directly impacts the results that 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.290 you're able to produce out of the company and the strength of your family. 00:29:31.770 --> 00:29:34.650 I hope this has helped you build some clarity. 00:29:35.265 --> 00:29:38.175 Maybe even if you share it with a family member, some alignment, some 00:29:38.175 --> 00:29:43.455 communication, some trust, some understanding with other family, employees 00:29:43.575 --> 00:29:47.955 and owners so that you all can build a chaos proof family business as well. 00:29:49.815 --> 00:29:52.095 Again, hope you enjoyed this episode. 00:29:52.125 --> 00:29:55.065 Click on the webinar from Kennesaw State in the show notes. 00:29:55.605 --> 00:30:00.075 We will see you again in the next episode, as my grandfather would've said. 00:30:00.555 --> 00:30:03.705 Thank you so very, very much for listening.