1 00:00:00,319 --> 00:00:03,250 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:03,290 --> 00:00:04,649 I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll. 3 00:00:05,569 --> 00:00:09,970 In this episode, you'll hear part one of my conversation with Bill Torgerson, 4 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:14,429 a lecturer in Rhetoric and Composition at Appalachian State University. 5 00:00:15,150 --> 00:00:19,170 My conversation with Bill took place before Hurricane Helene, which 6 00:00:19,170 --> 00:00:22,889 has had devastating effects on the campus and surrounding communities. 7 00:00:23,709 --> 00:00:27,040 We have included donation information in the show notes for the App 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,539 State Disaster Relief Fund and the restoration of the treasured Valle 9 00:00:31,539 --> 00:00:33,720 Crucis Park in Bill's neighborhood. 10 00:00:34,679 --> 00:00:39,519 More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,499 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 12 00:00:42,269 --> 00:00:46,590 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on YouTube 13 00:00:46,750 --> 00:00:49,140 and your favorite podcast app. 14 00:00:49,140 --> 00:00:53,940 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 15 00:00:53,959 --> 00:00:58,050 I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll, and I'm so excited today to 16 00:00:58,050 --> 00:01:00,929 introduce you to Bill Torgerson. 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,050 Bill is a lecturer in Rhetoric and Composition at Appalachian State 18 00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:09,289 University in North Carolina. 19 00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:10,550 Welcome, Bill. 20 00:01:11,169 --> 00:01:15,240 Thanks, I'm very impressed that you nailed the Appalachian pronunciation. 21 00:01:15,339 --> 00:01:18,079 Oh, well, I've been corrected before. 22 00:01:19,109 --> 00:01:24,419 When I came, I was in New York before I came, uh, to Boone, and they let me know 23 00:01:24,420 --> 00:01:26,240 right away that I was saying it wrong, so. 24 00:01:26,270 --> 00:01:26,900 Yeah. 25 00:01:27,325 --> 00:01:27,675 Well done. 26 00:01:27,675 --> 00:01:28,285 Well, thank you. 27 00:01:28,285 --> 00:01:29,375 I appreciate that. 28 00:01:29,375 --> 00:01:33,554 I, I tend to kind of go back and forth because even though I grew up not 29 00:01:33,554 --> 00:01:39,154 far away up in Stanton, Virginia, we say it a little differently there. 30 00:01:39,155 --> 00:01:41,574 So I, I got corrected right away. 31 00:01:41,575 --> 00:01:45,045 I think actually on a prior podcast with one of your colleagues. 32 00:01:45,250 --> 00:01:47,400 So it's all fun. 33 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:48,340 It's all fun. 34 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:54,620 Um, so I know Bill, you've been using Digication for quite a long time. 35 00:01:54,620 --> 00:01:59,130 And I, I look forward to hearing about how you got started with 36 00:01:59,130 --> 00:02:01,669 that and how you're using it today. 37 00:02:01,669 --> 00:02:06,199 But before we start talking about technology, um, I'd love to hear a 38 00:02:06,199 --> 00:02:10,109 little bit about how you find your, how you found your way to App State. 39 00:02:11,590 --> 00:02:15,120 Yeah, well, one thing I, I like to say that I live in Boone on purpose. 40 00:02:15,210 --> 00:02:20,515 Um, So we, you know, made some sacrifices and some drastic moves 41 00:02:20,535 --> 00:02:23,615 to get, uh, to the Boone area. 42 00:02:23,625 --> 00:02:29,285 I think, um, if I back up, um, I went to graduate school in 43 00:02:29,285 --> 00:02:34,874 Georgia and was really bent and focused on being a Creative Writer. 44 00:02:35,265 --> 00:02:37,534 Um, so I have an MFA in Creative Writing. 45 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:40,870 And I, and all I really wanted to do is become a better Writer and 46 00:02:40,870 --> 00:02:42,860 didn't have career aspirations. 47 00:02:42,860 --> 00:02:44,460 Like I want to be a professor. 48 00:02:45,060 --> 00:02:47,990 Um, but then as I worked on the MFA, I realized, Oh, there could 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,680 be some college Teaching jobs. 50 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,010 Uh, I applied for jobs all over the country, probably like 75 jobs had 51 00:02:54,010 --> 00:02:57,570 something like four interviews and the job I ended up accepting was at St. 52 00:02:57,570 --> 00:02:58,570 John's university. 53 00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:03,770 Um, and so we had a lot of academic freedom, but one of the kind of direct 54 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:07,540 orders we had was you will use Digication. 55 00:03:07,890 --> 00:03:09,880 Um, and you will have a portfolio. 56 00:03:09,990 --> 00:03:13,109 Um, so that was just sort of thrust upon me. 57 00:03:13,549 --> 00:03:18,470 Um, and it wasn't long until I really began to value, um, 58 00:03:19,089 --> 00:03:20,570 just writing in digital spaces. 59 00:03:20,609 --> 00:03:24,309 I thought as a teacher of writing, if we're not working in digital 60 00:03:24,309 --> 00:03:25,599 spaces, what are we doing? 61 00:03:26,019 --> 00:03:29,590 Um, so that was exciting and that engaged the students. 62 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,640 And so with that little nugget I'll be like, being made to do something 63 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:36,570 that really grew into the other tool that I've used ever since. 64 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,780 Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. 65 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:45,163 I was just kind of curious with the teaching that you're doing now, and the 66 00:03:45,163 --> 00:03:47,833 kind of students that you're working with. 67 00:03:47,833 --> 00:03:52,483 Do you have a lot of students that are coming in to, just 68 00:03:52,660 --> 00:03:58,090 you know, for their love and appreciation of the, the craft of writing and a 69 00:03:58,090 --> 00:04:02,630 similar kind of mindset that, that you were in, or do you have a lot of people 70 00:04:02,630 --> 00:04:06,220 that are already kind of thinking about what am I going to do after college? 71 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:10,269 Well, so at App State, um, we have something called the Vertical 72 00:04:10,269 --> 00:04:13,249 Writing Curriculum, which is one of the exciting things about being 73 00:04:13,249 --> 00:04:16,760 here in that the students have four required writing classes. 74 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:20,529 Throughout their time as an undergraduate. 75 00:04:20,719 --> 00:04:22,380 So I teach in that program. 76 00:04:22,380 --> 00:04:24,870 And so people are taking a class that they have to take. 77 00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:29,640 Um, so no, most of my students walk into the classroom saying. 78 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:31,640 I thought I tested out of this. 79 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:35,700 Why do I have to take this in my major? 80 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:41,239 Um, and so one of the early goals for me is just to kind of shift that 81 00:04:41,269 --> 00:04:45,400 attitude a little bit more towards the positive and help them experience 82 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,179 writing as something that's pleasurable. 83 00:04:47,429 --> 00:04:51,260 And I tend to not have a very difficult time of doing that. 84 00:04:51,270 --> 00:04:52,999 They have a lot of choices about their work. 85 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,150 Um, and one of the things that's really guided me. 86 00:04:57,940 --> 00:05:00,710 for decades is the idea that it's fun to make stuff. 87 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:07,640 And so, and so, uh, a ...port, a digital portfolio is something that you're making. 88 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:12,180 And so once students start engaging in that, uh, they start 89 00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:14,889 to forget that they're doing work and because they're working on 90 00:05:14,890 --> 00:05:16,219 something they've chosen to work on. 91 00:05:16,585 --> 00:05:18,674 Um, Enthusiasm starts to grow. 92 00:05:18,685 --> 00:05:24,325 So it's been a really useful, uh, tool for me to kind of engage students 93 00:05:24,325 --> 00:05:25,465 and get them excited about writing. 94 00:05:26,284 --> 00:05:27,384 Oh, that's wonderful. 95 00:05:27,384 --> 00:05:34,555 And, you know, it's always been our kind of hope that Instructors 96 00:05:34,565 --> 00:05:39,985 and students will approach it as its own kind of space for creation. 97 00:05:40,525 --> 00:05:46,544 You know, certainly people can upload documents and, and files, but we're 98 00:05:46,544 --> 00:05:51,544 always hoping that they really use it as that kind of opportunity for 99 00:05:51,594 --> 00:05:55,805 creating and building and exploring. 100 00:05:56,010 --> 00:06:01,820 So when you're introducing students to this kind of digital space, 101 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:04,280 how do you describe it to them? 102 00:06:04,289 --> 00:06:07,300 What are some of the early conversations that you have with 103 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:09,670 them about how it's going to be used? 104 00:06:10,670 --> 00:06:14,669 I've heard you talk before just about like process portfolios 105 00:06:14,669 --> 00:06:17,150 or more polished portfolios. 106 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,670 So we, we, for example, use Google docs as a place to draft. 107 00:06:21,610 --> 00:06:24,870 And we talk about, uh, we call them "aPortfolios". 108 00:06:24,889 --> 00:06:27,429 We brand everything with an A at App State, so, Mm-Hmm. 109 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:30,695 . So we, no, I still, I have to remind them that, you know, 110 00:06:30,695 --> 00:06:32,164 these are electronic portfolios. 111 00:06:32,164 --> 00:06:34,385 No one else is gonna call this an aPort when you leave here. 112 00:06:34,965 --> 00:06:39,145 Um, but we, we think about, uh, publishing to the aPort. 113 00:06:39,165 --> 00:06:39,225 Yeah. 114 00:06:39,255 --> 00:06:44,655 And we do that, um, as we go, which I think is, it's not even like 115 00:06:44,715 --> 00:06:48,525 convincing them, it's, we've got this draft of this piece we've been working 116 00:06:48,525 --> 00:06:50,114 on, and now we're gonna publish it. 117 00:06:50,605 --> 00:06:53,945 To this space, which, you know, it was kind of like your own personal website. 118 00:06:54,445 --> 00:06:57,095 Um, and so we decide to do that together in class. 119 00:06:57,095 --> 00:07:01,804 And so they leave the class, you know, one third started, or, or they've at 120 00:07:01,804 --> 00:07:05,654 least sort of had an introduction to it because we've all worked on that together. 121 00:07:05,654 --> 00:07:07,065 So, and then it's. 122 00:07:07,655 --> 00:07:12,245 I think a good sign is that, um, it's a space where the students 123 00:07:12,245 --> 00:07:13,825 do way more than that's required. 124 00:07:13,924 --> 00:07:16,854 So, you know, I lay out, uh, you know, a grading guide. 125 00:07:17,194 --> 00:07:19,694 Here's the expectations for what you're going to do in this space. 126 00:07:19,705 --> 00:07:22,975 You know, two images, there's captions, embed video, use 127 00:07:22,975 --> 00:07:24,184 some links, whatever it is. 128 00:07:24,534 --> 00:07:25,835 Uh, and they always go overboard. 129 00:07:25,875 --> 00:07:29,495 There's always more, more of everything that I asked for. 130 00:07:29,495 --> 00:07:32,645 So that's always a good sign when students work far beyond the 131 00:07:32,645 --> 00:07:35,025 expectations of the assignment Yeah. 132 00:07:35,065 --> 00:07:41,104 And so how do you Kind of prepare them for what the expectations will be. 133 00:07:41,104 --> 00:07:46,275 You mentioned that there's some kind of requirements in the beginning about what 134 00:07:46,275 --> 00:07:53,225 kind of content that they might upload, but how, how are they actually graded 135 00:07:53,225 --> 00:07:56,184 or assessed as part of your course? 136 00:07:56,214 --> 00:08:01,215 Cause that's a question that we often get, you know, are there specific 137 00:08:01,625 --> 00:08:03,664 kinds of rubrics that you used? 138 00:08:03,684 --> 00:08:08,645 Are peers involved in looking at each other's materials? 139 00:08:08,665 --> 00:08:12,605 How do you kind of let them know what those expectations are? 140 00:08:12,625 --> 00:08:15,094 So it would be yes to all of those things. 141 00:08:15,124 --> 00:08:18,994 Um, and then to start to break it down a little bit. 142 00:08:19,535 --> 00:08:23,505 Um, it's a little bit more, I think, of a labor based approach. 143 00:08:23,555 --> 00:08:28,175 Uh, probably not purely that, but all that means is, um, I'm asking 144 00:08:28,175 --> 00:08:32,319 for these, things to be part of the composition of your text. 145 00:08:32,669 --> 00:08:34,179 And if they're there, you get the credit. 146 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:35,929 And if they're not there, you don't get the credit. 147 00:08:36,329 --> 00:08:40,559 Um, you can always revise what you've done for a better grade as 148 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,079 long as the course is still going. 149 00:08:42,669 --> 00:08:46,150 Um, so it's, it's almost like you get a temporary score. 150 00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:52,180 So it's things like word count and number of images, um, use of space, use 151 00:08:52,180 --> 00:08:56,410 of color, um, captions on the images. 152 00:08:57,385 --> 00:08:59,365 So that's kind of what we talk about. 153 00:08:59,415 --> 00:09:05,105 Um, and then we use, um, something called as you learn, which is a Moodle, whatever, 154 00:09:05,105 --> 00:09:08,965 it's a Learning Management System and you can create custom grading guides. 155 00:09:09,304 --> 00:09:13,614 Um, and so it's always just like, you know, three to five categories, 156 00:09:13,655 --> 00:09:20,625 like I just said, images, use of, uh, internal citations, use of 157 00:09:20,625 --> 00:09:23,895 space, use of color, design is a big category, is one of the categories. 158 00:09:24,194 --> 00:09:26,784 So I score that and I write them a note at the bottom. 159 00:09:27,094 --> 00:09:30,254 Which sort of engages with their ideas and content, but also says, 160 00:09:30,264 --> 00:09:33,675 Hey, you lost three points because you forgot your captions or you just 161 00:09:33,675 --> 00:09:35,265 threw your three images on the bottom. 162 00:09:35,285 --> 00:09:37,865 If you want to move those back, integrate those into the text, then, 163 00:09:38,214 --> 00:09:39,525 you know, this can be a better grade. 164 00:09:39,734 --> 00:09:42,354 So that's, that's sort of the grading, grading assessment part. 165 00:09:42,965 --> 00:09:47,564 Um, and then, you know, the challenge, whether it's an online class, a hybrid 166 00:09:47,564 --> 00:09:51,645 class or solely face to face class, um, you know, one of the things I 167 00:09:51,645 --> 00:09:53,335 take pride in is creating community. 168 00:09:54,449 --> 00:09:57,469 I used to have this professor that always said, Sam Watson at UNC 169 00:09:57,469 --> 00:10:01,095 Charlotte, he would always say, Writing floats on a sea of conversation. 170 00:10:02,635 --> 00:10:05,824 And so I'm trying to shift students out of error finding. 171 00:10:06,525 --> 00:10:07,945 Let's just talk to each other. 172 00:10:07,975 --> 00:10:10,635 Let's be a thoughtful, engaged audience for each other. 173 00:10:11,034 --> 00:10:14,364 And that will take, you know, we don't, we don't need to point out mistakes. 174 00:10:14,395 --> 00:10:16,685 It's just like, Hey Kelly, I'm Bill. 175 00:10:16,815 --> 00:10:17,735 You're getting to know me. 176 00:10:17,784 --> 00:10:18,544 I'm listening to you. 177 00:10:18,584 --> 00:10:19,904 I have questions about what you're doing. 178 00:10:20,754 --> 00:10:24,774 And so that kind of interaction among the students, um, it motivates them. 179 00:10:24,804 --> 00:10:26,024 It gives them a sense of audience. 180 00:10:26,025 --> 00:10:27,424 It helps them write more effectively. 181 00:10:27,744 --> 00:10:29,984 Because they can imagine what they need to say to each other. 182 00:10:30,385 --> 00:10:33,625 Um, and so we have forums in our learning management system. 183 00:10:34,430 --> 00:10:38,160 Where we comment in the forum about each other's portfolios. 184 00:10:38,830 --> 00:10:39,350 Nice. 185 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:39,820 Nice. 186 00:10:40,180 --> 00:10:44,120 And how often are they kind of looking at each other's work? 187 00:10:44,170 --> 00:10:48,610 Are they looking at some of the early drafts? 188 00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:53,164 Do you have them focus more on some of the final versions? 189 00:10:53,384 --> 00:10:57,604 How do you kind of get the work on building that community as 190 00:10:57,664 --> 00:10:59,024 part of sharing their work? 191 00:10:59,954 --> 00:11:02,635 We, I mean, I think one of the first things we do, which takes a little 192 00:11:02,635 --> 00:11:07,434 bit of time, but seems worth it to me, um, is that we write an academic 193 00:11:07,434 --> 00:11:10,824 profile to start, uh, the course. 194 00:11:10,834 --> 00:11:15,545 So, um, you know, if you were, if you're writing a profile for a dating website, 195 00:11:15,574 --> 00:11:19,444 which I've never done, um, cause I'm old and happily married for a long time. 196 00:11:19,915 --> 00:11:21,885 Um, you know, that would be a different audience. 197 00:11:21,895 --> 00:11:24,915 Like what you would say in that profile would be different. 198 00:11:25,325 --> 00:11:27,595 But here we are at App State and you have a major and you have 199 00:11:27,595 --> 00:11:29,285 professors and you have classmates. 200 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,980 Um, so that profile is different, so that automatically gets 201 00:11:33,980 --> 00:11:35,110 us thinking about audience. 202 00:11:35,510 --> 00:11:40,860 Um, so we do some pre writing, we keep a, a digital journal that I call a day 203 00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:42,760 book after somebody like Donald Murray. 204 00:11:43,199 --> 00:11:47,719 Um, so we do that in a doc, so we have pre writing, we write drafts, 205 00:11:47,759 --> 00:11:49,369 we comment on each other's drafts. 206 00:11:49,870 --> 00:11:55,670 Um, we publish to Digication, and then I do take what usually 207 00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:57,180 is two full class periods. 208 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,800 For students to give like a five minute about me presentation, um, where 209 00:12:02,810 --> 00:12:05,060 it's like, Oh, you live in Raleigh. 210 00:12:05,090 --> 00:12:06,160 I went to high school in Raleigh. 211 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:06,909 Where did you go? 212 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,700 So, so just automatically there's all this conversation that sparks up. 213 00:12:11,454 --> 00:12:12,545 Oh, you're an EMT. 214 00:12:12,545 --> 00:12:13,324 I'm an EMT. 215 00:12:13,375 --> 00:12:15,525 Oh, you're, you work at the Ski School. 216 00:12:15,525 --> 00:12:15,814 I w... 217 00:12:15,865 --> 00:12:17,625 i, you know, whatever it is that's going on. 218 00:12:17,844 --> 00:12:21,015 So all these connections are built within the first couple of weeks. 219 00:12:21,054 --> 00:12:26,634 And then we just repeat that kind of cycle through all of our projects for 220 00:12:26,634 --> 00:12:29,925 the course of a semester, where it's like pre-writing, stop and talk to each 221 00:12:29,925 --> 00:12:33,515 other, check in on drafts, publish, look at each other's publications. 222 00:12:33,975 --> 00:12:36,855 And then I always, you know, I'm not going to copy everything you do, Kelly. 223 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,150 But when I look at your portfolio, I get ideas for myself, like, Oh, I see what 224 00:12:41,150 --> 00:12:42,620 she did and this is what I want to do. 225 00:12:42,950 --> 00:12:46,140 Um, and that's that kind of writing floats on a sea of conversation piece. 226 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:47,300 Nice. 227 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:47,670 Nice. 228 00:12:47,699 --> 00:12:47,979 Yeah. 229 00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:53,789 Do you find that students often get inspired by some of the design 230 00:12:53,839 --> 00:12:57,630 elements of the content that they're creating at that time? 231 00:12:58,425 --> 00:12:59,325 Sure, it's both. 232 00:12:59,355 --> 00:13:03,645 I mean, it's, it's, there are some students that are just self motivated 233 00:13:03,695 --> 00:13:06,905 and excited to experiment and can't wait to learn from each other. 234 00:13:07,595 --> 00:13:11,705 And then there's other people, and maybe sometimes you can be each of these people, 235 00:13:11,705 --> 00:13:15,974 you're like, oh, I need to step up my game because I just saw Kelly's portfolio. 236 00:13:16,004 --> 00:13:16,814 It's incredible. 237 00:13:17,570 --> 00:13:20,880 I just copied and pasted a bunch of text into one box. 238 00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:22,870 Um, I need to do better than this. 239 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,360 So, so it works both ways. 240 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,520 I mean, I'm not trying to shame people into working harder, but, um, they just 241 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,620 do it themselves, they see it and they get motivated, uh, because of the work, 242 00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:33,009 uh, of their classmates sometimes. 243 00:13:33,019 --> 00:13:34,179 So it works in all kinds of ways. 244 00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:35,200 That's great. 245 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Yeah. 246 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,290 So healthy... 247 00:13:36,350 --> 00:13:38,250 Healthy, pure motivation. 248 00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:45,039 And really when we were creating Digication, uh, a lot of it came out of, 249 00:13:45,675 --> 00:13:52,545 Both, uh, my experience and the experience of Digication's co founder, Jeff Yan. 250 00:13:52,725 --> 00:13:56,725 Uh, because when we were in college, we were at a design school 251 00:13:56,725 --> 00:13:59,755 where we're always working in this kind of studio environment. 252 00:14:00,425 --> 00:14:08,805 So from the very beginning of receiving a kind of prompt from an instructor, you 253 00:14:08,805 --> 00:14:15,125 know, other people were walking around viewing what you were creating and, you 254 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:21,250 It was kind of impossible to not get inspired by other people that were in 255 00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:27,975 the room and instructors would kind of wander through and give little desk crits 256 00:14:27,975 --> 00:14:34,475 and feedback as you were building things, um, classmates would come by and, you 257 00:14:34,475 --> 00:14:37,295 know, sometimes give you props or ideas. 258 00:14:37,345 --> 00:14:42,724 And it was a very, um, wonderful kind of experience and so 259 00:14:42,724 --> 00:14:47,555 different from what we had done, you know, coming up through K-12. 260 00:14:47,575 --> 00:14:51,225 So it was really eye opening and exciting. 261 00:14:51,225 --> 00:14:54,144 And so when we were creating this kind of environment for 262 00:14:54,145 --> 00:14:55,535 students, we really wanted. 263 00:14:56,025 --> 00:15:01,395 There to be that kind of opportunity, but now in a, in a digital space. 264 00:15:01,944 --> 00:15:05,045 So, it's wonderful to hear that your students are doing that. 265 00:15:05,665 --> 00:15:09,835 When you were a freshman in college, when you were heading off to college, um, 266 00:15:09,915 --> 00:15:12,235 and we both have, I think, 18 year olds. 267 00:15:13,095 --> 00:15:13,174 We do. 268 00:15:13,484 --> 00:15:15,525 What did you think the arc of your life was going to be then? 269 00:15:15,545 --> 00:15:16,245 Did you know? 270 00:15:16,255 --> 00:15:17,194 Did you think you know? 271 00:15:17,194 --> 00:15:18,424 I would imagine it shifted. 272 00:15:18,764 --> 00:15:22,195 I wouldn't think you thought you were going to be the co founder of Digication 273 00:15:22,195 --> 00:15:24,435 when you were 18, but maybe you didn't. 274 00:15:24,435 --> 00:15:25,209 Absolutely not! 275 00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:26,370 Absolutely not. 276 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,900 And this is something that we talked to the kids about a lot here. 277 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:38,690 You know, I do have a senior and, uh, two sophomores and also some little guys. 278 00:15:38,740 --> 00:15:45,059 And we talk a lot about how, you know, you may have some ideas in mind about 279 00:15:45,059 --> 00:15:50,450 your future trajectory, but you know, the people you meet and the places you 280 00:15:50,450 --> 00:15:56,830 go and the different experiences that you have will certainly kind of shift things 281 00:15:56,830 --> 00:16:01,490 and, um, carry you on different paths. 282 00:16:01,490 --> 00:16:09,290 And yeah, when I started college, uh, I actually majored in textile design 283 00:16:09,859 --> 00:16:17,619 and, um, had just kind of fallen in love with, uh, painting on fabric, uh, 284 00:16:17,619 --> 00:16:22,289 in my little corner of the basement in the home that I grew up in. 285 00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:25,489 And so when I got into this, 286 00:16:27,955 --> 00:16:34,595 That's where I went, but, um, uh, the, um, kind of foundation year 287 00:16:34,595 --> 00:16:40,115 at Rhode Island School of Design was just, like, so transformative. 288 00:16:40,215 --> 00:16:44,444 So even though I stayed in that path of textile design, my, like, whole 289 00:16:44,455 --> 00:16:50,944 vision of art making and drawing and painting and, I mean, it just opened 290 00:16:50,944 --> 00:16:52,985 up a totally different world to me. 291 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:59,919 I had no intention at all of even taking computer classes, but I happened to fall 292 00:16:59,919 --> 00:17:09,870 into one that, um, yeah, just shifted my path and, um, also didn't plan to 293 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,797 become any kind of, uh, teacher and then started teaching at the school 294 00:17:15,797 --> 00:17:17,900 that I went to after graduation. 295 00:17:18,460 --> 00:17:21,829 And from there started building tools for my students. 296 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:22,640 So you just. 297 00:17:22,815 --> 00:17:29,115 You just don't know where things are gonna are gonna take you and I'm sure 298 00:17:29,115 --> 00:17:34,715 as an educator you love working with students kind of for that reason right 299 00:17:34,715 --> 00:17:39,424 you're kind of catching them at this kind of moment in time where they've 300 00:17:39,424 --> 00:17:45,560 got ideas and you can kind of I remember I think when you know when I I think 301 00:17:45,810 --> 00:17:50,430 first knew about Digication and met Jeff, I don't know, 15 or 20 years ago. 302 00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:55,609 It seemed like there was a sense of you saying to yourselves, we need 303 00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:57,769 something better than what we have here. 304 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,879 And so then you started to work on creating a space that would be better 305 00:18:02,889 --> 00:18:07,560 for, uh, you know, art, creative minded students to have a space 306 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,250 to, um, put what they were making. 307 00:18:09,814 --> 00:18:15,814 Yeah, yeah, and it really did start as something I was teaching in the education 308 00:18:15,885 --> 00:18:21,024 program at the time that we started building this and it was called the 309 00:18:22,584 --> 00:18:29,154 Digital Media Design Studio, but it was for you know people that were preparing 310 00:18:29,154 --> 00:18:39,659 to become future art educators And many of my students had, you know, ideas about 311 00:18:39,659 --> 00:18:48,479 what that meant and may or may not have used, um, computers to make art or, um, 312 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:50,929 create lesson plans and curriculum maps. 313 00:18:50,930 --> 00:18:55,580 So there's kind of a combination of, you know, tools that we were using and 314 00:18:56,140 --> 00:19:02,510 the portfolio at the time was something that, you know, was definitely used for 315 00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:05,210 kind of creating that showcase of art. 316 00:19:05,260 --> 00:19:11,300 But within that education program was really about capturing their experience 317 00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:16,620 throughout their time at the program and the program was using it to give 318 00:19:16,620 --> 00:19:22,585 them feedback and Kind of track progress toward those professional practice, 319 00:19:22,595 --> 00:19:27,625 teaching standards, and really also wanted it to be something that they could 320 00:19:27,625 --> 00:19:33,585 take with them to use after graduation for their own career advancement. 321 00:19:34,014 --> 00:19:38,265 So, you know, I was really trying to model a lot of things for the students 322 00:19:38,265 --> 00:19:42,355 at the time and the way that I was using technology in the classroom and 323 00:19:42,955 --> 00:19:47,004 the, the learning management systems weren't going to cut it because 324 00:19:47,014 --> 00:19:48,615 it wasn't something that I just. 325 00:19:49,719 --> 00:19:51,310 for an individual course. 326 00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:55,199 It was really something that was going to be, you know, something 327 00:19:55,199 --> 00:19:58,560 that they were going to touch throughout their time at the program 328 00:19:58,639 --> 00:20:01,110 and then continue to have access to. 329 00:20:01,110 --> 00:20:04,789 And so, yeah, Jeff and I were just like, well, let's just 330 00:20:04,809 --> 00:20:06,759 build something for our students. 331 00:20:06,769 --> 00:20:09,279 You know, we're not finding the right kind of. 332 00:20:10,270 --> 00:20:11,380 environment. 333 00:20:11,650 --> 00:20:16,440 And, you know, we innocently embarked on that thinking we were going to be 334 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,450 working on it for a weekend or so. 335 00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:25,079 And, you know, over 20 years later, now here we are. 336 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:35,750 But you really were, you know, using it in a, in some of the early stages of the 337 00:20:35,770 --> 00:20:43,680 platform and you've seen it kind of evolve over the last, you know, 10-plus years, 338 00:20:43,819 --> 00:20:47,100 um, what are, have there been any shifts? 339 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:49,279 You know, you mentioned that it was just kind of thrust 340 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,780 upon you when you joined App. 341 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:52,280 State. 342 00:20:52,845 --> 00:20:57,655 Have, have there, has there been some evolution in kind of how you use it or 343 00:20:57,655 --> 00:21:02,715 maybe some of the, you know, changes in the platform that may have, you 344 00:21:02,715 --> 00:21:04,635 know, given you other opportunities. 345 00:21:04,895 --> 00:21:08,055 Yeah, I mean, the first thing I would say is going all the way back to St. 346 00:21:08,055 --> 00:21:08,845 John's, St. 347 00:21:08,845 --> 00:21:12,345 John's is the spot in Queens where it was thrust upon me. 348 00:21:12,815 --> 00:21:15,334 Um, you know, the guy, the guy who was directing the program 349 00:21:15,335 --> 00:21:18,164 then, his name is Derek Owens, you probably know him or remember him. 350 00:21:19,214 --> 00:21:23,275 So, you know, when I hear you talk about um, your life as an artist, I can see 351 00:21:23,275 --> 00:21:26,340 why You and Jeff appealed to Derek. 352 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:27,840 I mean, it would make a lot of sense. 353 00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:31,080 I mean, he has that same, I think, kind of perspective. 354 00:21:31,139 --> 00:21:36,120 Um, so the, the platform has just gotten much, much more intuitive to use. 355 00:21:36,169 --> 00:21:41,139 Um, where, you know, I think the learning curve to like popping on there and making 356 00:21:41,139 --> 00:21:46,470 stuff is, you know, much more simple than it was, of course, 15 or 20 years ago. 357 00:21:47,150 --> 00:21:52,400 Um, and so, uh, I think just the only thing that's sort of been 358 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,945 evolving It's just the constant change of technology, right? 359 00:21:56,105 --> 00:21:56,895 Um, Yeah. 360 00:21:57,105 --> 00:22:02,354 Whereas, I mean, I like, we talk about discourses, groups of, with common goals 361 00:22:02,354 --> 00:22:04,144 and specialized language and so forth. 362 00:22:04,634 --> 00:22:08,925 Um, and sometimes the students, like, don't get how discourses change. 363 00:22:09,304 --> 00:22:11,475 But, you know, I started teaching in 1995. 364 00:22:11,475 --> 00:22:12,484 I didn't have an email account. 365 00:22:12,504 --> 00:22:13,244 There was no internet. 366 00:22:13,244 --> 00:22:14,404 No one had a cell phone. 367 00:22:14,825 --> 00:22:18,345 So, of course, like, the ways that teaching has changed. 368 00:22:19,164 --> 00:22:22,225 Writing has changed since the mid 90s. 369 00:22:22,504 --> 00:22:27,145 Um, so that's sort of what I think of, but, um, just the, and then maybe 370 00:22:27,145 --> 00:22:33,674 the students tend to be, um, they're, they very willingly engage and they're 371 00:22:33,674 --> 00:22:37,584 thoughtful and they ask me questions of things that I haven't thought of. 372 00:22:38,094 --> 00:22:41,914 Um, so, you know, we continue to have really good experiences around. 373 00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:44,980 The digital space and Digication is where we do most of that. 374 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:47,100 That's wonderful. 375 00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:54,310 Do you know, as your students are kind of publishing their writing, do you find 376 00:22:54,310 --> 00:23:04,295 that they have Um, already comfort in that kind of process of sharing, or do you 377 00:23:04,295 --> 00:23:10,254 have students that, you know, maybe feel comfortable sharing things with you and 378 00:23:10,254 --> 00:23:18,615 their peers, but may not want to open it up beyond that particular course or share 379 00:23:18,615 --> 00:23:22,835 it with audiences outside of the school, what, what's your kind of feeling from the 380 00:23:22,845 --> 00:23:24,984 students that you're working with today? 381 00:23:25,415 --> 00:23:26,854 Yeah, I think what I think of. 382 00:23:27,375 --> 00:23:29,955 You know, if I ask myself, why Digication? 383 00:23:30,605 --> 00:23:37,215 Um, I mean, I think the, the ability to toggle the privacy settings and to create 384 00:23:37,225 --> 00:23:41,754 and do some of that work and not feel like it's out on Google immediately, at 385 00:23:41,754 --> 00:23:45,095 least, or out on a social media platform. 386 00:23:45,534 --> 00:23:47,575 Um, that's certainly one of the values. 387 00:23:47,595 --> 00:23:53,395 But then I think, Totally guessing, you know, 85, 90 percent of my students 388 00:23:53,415 --> 00:23:56,584 are totally fine and immediately eager. 389 00:23:56,584 --> 00:24:01,604 And in fact, um, make themselves really vulnerable really quickly 390 00:24:01,624 --> 00:24:04,064 to the point where I'm like, Ooh, you got, you really brought it. 391 00:24:04,545 --> 00:24:09,784 Um, but, and then there are others who, um, and I always introduce, you know, 392 00:24:09,784 --> 00:24:13,615 you can make this private, private to me, sort of go over the settings. 393 00:24:13,865 --> 00:24:15,405 There are usually, you know. 394 00:24:16,005 --> 00:24:22,405 One to four students in a group of 80 who, who prefer to keep it much more 395 00:24:22,405 --> 00:24:26,620 private or, and then there's always like, You know, I do require images, 396 00:24:26,620 --> 00:24:28,010 but I don't require an image of you. 397 00:24:28,030 --> 00:24:30,360 You know, it can be your dog, it can be a flower, it can be the 398 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,050 clouds, it can be the view, whatever. 399 00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:39,110 So, students, there is a variety of what they choose as far as 400 00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:40,870 making things public or private. 401 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,159 Yeah, yeah. 402 00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:48,060 And we do find more and more, and this is something that, you know, certainly 403 00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:54,274 in the earlier days of Digication we hadn't planned for, but you mentioned 404 00:24:54,274 --> 00:25:03,915 that there's this importance of building community within your classroom and 405 00:25:04,065 --> 00:25:08,895 among the students that you're working with and that you're finding that 406 00:25:09,485 --> 00:25:16,515 sometimes students are kind of using this space within Digication to You 407 00:25:16,515 --> 00:25:26,385 know talk about things that are maybe more kind of personal in nature You know 408 00:25:26,395 --> 00:25:31,684 information about themselves or their experiences how that's impacted them 409 00:25:32,314 --> 00:25:40,554 Um, and I think, you know, a big driver behind that seems to be students really 410 00:25:40,634 --> 00:25:49,684 valuing the opportunity to share in order to find connection and find community 411 00:25:49,715 --> 00:25:52,724 within the institutions that they're in. 412 00:25:53,354 --> 00:25:58,655 And I was curious if you've seen You know, throughout the time that you've 413 00:25:58,665 --> 00:26:06,814 been using that is that something that you feel has kind of grown over time um, 414 00:26:06,824 --> 00:26:14,905 I know sometimes if The spaces are just used as kind of a showcase of final works. 415 00:26:14,905 --> 00:26:19,455 We see some of that less often, but if it is used as that kind of creation 416 00:26:19,455 --> 00:26:24,754 space, the kind of human behind the content starts to emerge and why 417 00:26:24,775 --> 00:26:28,990 they're You know, creating the things that they are starts to emerge. 418 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,560 So I was just kind of curious from your perspective, if that seems 419 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,319 like something that has been kind of evolving along with the, with the times. 420 00:26:38,179 --> 00:26:38,370 Yeah. 421 00:26:38,370 --> 00:26:41,079 I like your phrase human behind the content. 422 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:45,849 Um, so, you know, if, if we're interacting with just a learning 423 00:26:45,859 --> 00:26:50,369 management system and it's just like your name in black and white. 424 00:26:50,610 --> 00:26:56,240 Letters with text and you're turning in assignments, um, the human behind the 425 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,490 text, it's more difficult for that person to emerge whereas when I'm, when I'm 426 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:07,009 clicking on, um, one thing I really like about the electronic portfolios is when 427 00:27:07,009 --> 00:27:12,329 I'm looking at a student's piece, um, all their other pieces are right there too. 428 00:27:12,329 --> 00:27:16,259 So that, that academic profile that we mentioned, you know, I, 429 00:27:16,289 --> 00:27:20,779 if I'm, if I'm teaching 3 online classes and that's 70-ish students. 430 00:27:21,615 --> 00:27:24,745 Um, I'm able to pop over to that about me and just quickly 431 00:27:24,745 --> 00:27:26,215 remind myself, who is this? 432 00:27:26,315 --> 00:27:29,885 Um, in a way that I can't do if I'm looking at one assignment 433 00:27:29,915 --> 00:27:32,135 in a Learning Management System. 434 00:27:32,185 --> 00:27:36,494 I think something I've noticed about the students, maybe in the last 435 00:27:36,495 --> 00:27:40,144 five years or so, is just a new level of thoughtfulness about... 436 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,950 Digital spaces. 437 00:27:42,450 --> 00:27:47,540 More so in, in fact, you know, more critical of that space, a little 438 00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:49,540 bit more reluctant to go there. 439 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,580 Not necessarily reluctant to use Digication, but more likely to say, 440 00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:57,410 you know, I don't have any social media accounts, which I would have 441 00:27:57,410 --> 00:27:58,970 seen maybe seven or eight years ago. 442 00:27:58,970 --> 00:28:02,889 And also maybe, you know, I have two teenagers at home, 443 00:28:03,189 --> 00:28:04,540 probably more thoughtful. 444 00:28:05,035 --> 00:28:06,605 Then they are also. 445 00:28:06,605 --> 00:28:11,025 So I think just something about whether it's apps, you know, leaving your house 446 00:28:11,035 --> 00:28:12,605 and showing up in Boone and going to App. 447 00:28:12,605 --> 00:28:17,834 State, um, just being a little bit more thoughtful about what online 448 00:28:17,835 --> 00:28:22,425 spaces they engage in and more likely to say, um, you know, I limit my 449 00:28:22,425 --> 00:28:26,025 social media to this and this and this time, and I'm making sure I'm hiking 450 00:28:26,025 --> 00:28:27,325 and I'm going out on the parkway. 451 00:28:27,325 --> 00:28:32,335 And so I do see like, almost like a new generation of. 452 00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:39,890 of more thoughtful, less reluctant users of, um, just social media, for example. 453 00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:40,810 Mm hmm. 454 00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:41,310 Yeah. 455 00:28:41,380 --> 00:28:48,650 I mean, they've really just grown up so immersed in, you know, well, 456 00:28:48,659 --> 00:28:52,990 many of them having a phone right in front of them from the very beginning. 457 00:28:53,500 --> 00:29:00,905 And I think you're right that, um, you know, they're Making more choices about, 458 00:29:00,975 --> 00:29:07,095 you know, the amount of time that they spend on certain platforms and what the, 459 00:29:07,105 --> 00:29:14,544 um, the value add is for them and their experience and everything else that they 460 00:29:14,544 --> 00:29:17,214 want to be able to spend their time doing. 461 00:29:17,754 --> 00:29:23,034 And, um, You know, I think in the beginning as these, uh, new tech, 462 00:29:23,395 --> 00:29:27,504 the new technologies were kind of coming into play in education context, 463 00:29:27,504 --> 00:29:33,245 that there, there was kind of a, a newness and a, a freshness and. 464 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:41,240 Um, the way that people may have been posting things, um, and there's a lot 465 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,600 of competition for our attention now. 466 00:29:45,149 --> 00:29:51,639 So it has to be kind of deliberate in where they're choosing to spend their 467 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,380 time and, and what they're sharing and who they're sharing it with. 468 00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,990 And you mentioned earlier, there are conversations with them a little bit 469 00:29:58,990 --> 00:30:07,265 about audience and Are you talking to them at all about, um, how this is 470 00:30:07,275 --> 00:30:15,224 something that they could use after graduation, um, with their alumni 471 00:30:15,224 --> 00:30:20,225 access, ways that they could share it with people outside of the school? 472 00:30:22,545 --> 00:30:22,995 Sure. 473 00:30:23,064 --> 00:30:25,394 So they're usually sophomores. 474 00:30:25,434 --> 00:30:28,124 Um, so they're a little ways down the road. 475 00:30:28,124 --> 00:30:33,805 We definitely just talk about the idea of a portfolio in the history of a portfolio. 476 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,510 Uh, even if it was physical, um, and what they might potentially use. 477 00:30:38,530 --> 00:30:45,130 We also talk a lot about, um, known audiences and unknown audiences. 478 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:51,360 And that often, you know, if you're, if you're posting something on TikTok, um, 479 00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:56,210 or you're posting something on your, um, portfolio, you know, there are people, 480 00:30:56,210 --> 00:30:57,450 you know, are going to look at it. 481 00:30:57,770 --> 00:31:00,570 But there's also people who are going to read it and never thought about it. 482 00:31:00,570 --> 00:31:02,130 So we, we, we talk about that. 483 00:31:02,540 --> 00:31:06,480 Um, and then we, and of course, I mean, for example, that you said you 484 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520 taught in the education department, they're all really conscious of the 485 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,800 fact that they're going to be creating a portfolio, um, to be used later. 486 00:31:15,220 --> 00:31:15,740 Others. 487 00:31:16,029 --> 00:31:20,440 And, and I guess another thing that comes up and a reason that I list as 'Why 488 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:28,030 Digication?' Um, it's because we're, my students are almost all using Digication. 489 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,280 If you ask me for a letter of recommendation two years, three years, 490 00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:35,590 four years after I've had you, it's so easy for me just to search for your 491 00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:41,309 name and, and immediately be immersed in your work as opposed to like looking 492 00:31:41,310 --> 00:31:43,910 all, you know, do you still have that link to that portfolio made on 493 00:31:43,910 --> 00:31:45,840 this platform that no one else used? 494 00:31:46,925 --> 00:31:52,085 So it really reduces like, um, kind of the work, the work involved 495 00:31:52,085 --> 00:31:53,775 in conjuring all that stuff up. 496 00:31:53,775 --> 00:31:56,635 So that's something that, um, I find useful about it. 497 00:31:57,525 --> 00:31:58,095 Oh, good. 498 00:31:58,185 --> 00:31:58,625 Good. 499 00:31:58,975 --> 00:31:59,275 Yeah. 500 00:31:59,275 --> 00:32:01,374 I don't know if I've had someone mentioned that before, 501 00:32:01,374 --> 00:32:03,294 but that makes a lot of sense. 502 00:32:03,294 --> 00:32:07,634 I'm sure as soon as you see that portfolio, you can kind of remember 503 00:32:07,664 --> 00:32:12,434 the, um, the person and you have that immediate access to the work 504 00:32:12,434 --> 00:32:14,464 that they created within your course. 505 00:32:14,925 --> 00:32:21,965 Um, and you mentioned that most of them are sophomores in the, um, in 506 00:32:21,965 --> 00:32:24,214 Rhetoric and Composition at App State. 507 00:32:24,265 --> 00:32:30,515 Are there other courses where the students may be utilizing this technology again? 508 00:32:31,605 --> 00:32:36,635 Yeah, so that's, um, certainly within, um, the Vertical Writing Curriculum, 509 00:32:36,675 --> 00:32:40,775 um, so they could easily use it in their required 1000 level class. 510 00:32:40,795 --> 00:32:44,134 Mine's called 2001 Writing Across the Curriculum. 511 00:32:44,415 --> 00:32:48,145 So they, they, there are students come to my class. 512 00:32:48,155 --> 00:32:51,235 Some of them having used Digication. 513 00:32:51,694 --> 00:32:55,925 Um, it's a little bit more of an unknown once they, once they leave the 514 00:32:55,925 --> 00:32:57,525 Vertical Writing Curriculum and go out. 515 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,200 into whatever their majors are. 516 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,830 I really, it's hard for me to say. 517 00:33:00,940 --> 00:33:03,309 I, you know, I don't know. 518 00:33:03,390 --> 00:33:07,420 Here's a preview of what's coming up next in part two of my conversation 519 00:33:07,460 --> 00:33:11,349 with Bill Torgerson, a lecturer in Rhetoric and Composition at 520 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,150 Appalachian State University. 521 00:33:13,515 --> 00:33:17,925 You know, the ability to learn content, the ability to present the content 522 00:33:18,315 --> 00:33:22,644 in an engaging way that makes it easily digestible to the audience, 523 00:33:22,644 --> 00:33:24,035 whether it's a player or a student. 524 00:33:24,535 --> 00:33:27,975 Um, those are really important in both of those spaces and 525 00:33:27,985 --> 00:33:29,759 probably strengths of mine.