WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.280 --> 00:00:17.340 Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:17.850 --> 00:00:19.350 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.050 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:22.050 --> 00:00:22.110 Okay. 00:00:35.446 --> 00:00:37.496 Welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:00:37.616 --> 00:00:39.356 Great to have you here today. 00:00:39.446 --> 00:00:46.016 Uh, I, we are continuing the reject the premise work that Danny and I have been working on for a few weeks. 00:00:46.496 --> 00:00:55.916 This is reject the premise number six, and you can find the even ones on Transformative principle and the odd ones on Danny's podcast. 00:00:55.946 --> 00:00:57.176 Better Leaders, better Schools. 00:00:57.176 --> 00:00:59.456 Danny, good morning my friend. 00:01:00.896 --> 00:01:03.446 Good morning, my friend, Jethro. 00:01:04.136 --> 00:01:04.796 How are you? 00:01:04.886 --> 00:01:05.906 I am great. 00:01:06.086 --> 00:01:07.106 It is good to see you. 00:01:07.286 --> 00:01:07.766 Um, 00:01:08.036 --> 00:01:08.246 Yeah. 00:01:08.246 --> 00:01:08.786 Good to see you 00:01:08.786 --> 00:01:23.966 for people who don't know, what we've been doing is we wrote this book together and uh, and then we stopped and so then we decided we wanted to still do something with all the, all the work that we had done, and so we are. 00:01:24.566 --> 00:01:30.326 Just slowly going through all of our ideas about rejecting the premise that exists. 00:01:30.806 --> 00:01:42.866 And there are a couple ways that if you are listening and you think this is great and you're loving the series, you can, uh, connect with either one of us and say, Hey, I want to help and we got stuff for you to do. 00:01:43.316 --> 00:01:52.436 Uh, it could be doing some AI work to turn into the actual book that could be, um, reviewing what we've done already and saying, here's some things you're missing. 00:01:52.811 --> 00:01:56.621 Here are some premises that need rejecting, stuff like that. 00:01:56.621 --> 00:02:02.321 So if you are enjoying it, please reach out and say, Hey, I want to be involved in this. 00:02:02.321 --> 00:02:03.251 We'd love to have you. 00:02:03.251 --> 00:02:07.091 And think that, uh, the more the merrier that has been. 00:02:07.811 --> 00:02:11.681 Danny and I, we've believed that for our whole time we've known each other. 00:02:12.071 --> 00:02:16.091 Uh, the, there's always more room to share and grow and do things. 00:02:16.091 --> 00:02:21.191 So, um, so we've done five episodes of this already, and this is number six. 00:02:21.191 --> 00:02:27.551 I'm excited about this stuff because this is fun to talk about and I'm, I'm personally really enjoying it. 00:02:27.551 --> 00:02:31.241 So, uh, anything else you wanna say is a preamble, Danny? 00:02:33.251 --> 00:02:34.121 No, I don't think so. 00:02:34.121 --> 00:02:34.871 You covered it all. 00:02:34.871 --> 00:02:42.671 It's just, uh, this has been been a fun way to, you know, discuss the ideas and, uh, stay connected and provide value, you know, for people that tune in. 00:02:42.671 --> 00:02:44.871 So, I'm ready to rock and roll. 00:02:45.251 --> 00:02:59.201 So we are gonna start today with this premise that parents partner with the school and, uh, this one, there's nuance to it, and this is why I think that it's so important. 00:02:59.831 --> 00:03:09.401 The reality is, is that schools should partner with parents because parents have the initial and ultimate responsibility for educating their children. 00:03:09.401 --> 00:03:13.031 And the school just steps in to help that. 00:03:13.451 --> 00:03:21.551 And I was talking with a bunch of principals one time and one principal said, uh, there's no accountability for parents if they screw up. 00:03:22.076 --> 00:03:26.606 I literally laughed out loud because I could not believe that he said that. 00:03:27.236 --> 00:03:34.406 And I asked him what kind of accountability he had as a school leader, because there are lots of schools that really stink. 00:03:34.436 --> 00:03:43.706 There are lots of, uh, kids that are failing that are not successful when they get outta school and where's the accountability for schools? 00:03:43.706 --> 00:03:45.416 And he said, well, the state could come in. 00:03:45.791 --> 00:03:48.071 And, and take over my school. 00:03:48.431 --> 00:03:50.141 And I said, if that happens, what? 00:03:50.171 --> 00:03:52.811 What is the worst possible case scenario that happens there? 00:03:53.111 --> 00:04:00.281 Half your teachers could leave, they could be forced out, and they bring in new people, but they still have jobs. 00:04:00.311 --> 00:04:03.701 They don't lose their jobs completely, they just have to go to another school. 00:04:04.451 --> 00:04:08.111 And then I asked him what the accountability was for parents and he said, well, there is none. 00:04:08.291 --> 00:04:15.051 And I said, look, if your kid is still living at your house and not being a productive member of society when they're 30 years old. 00:04:16.001 --> 00:04:17.531 That's some pretty big accountability. 00:04:17.951 --> 00:04:22.151 You as the parent have to deal with that for the rest of that kid's life. 00:04:22.511 --> 00:04:30.671 And so if you screw up as a parent early on, you feel those repercussions for the rest of the kid's life. 00:04:30.701 --> 00:04:40.091 And, and so it is very important that we understand that parents are the real teachers of kids and we just step in to help with that. 00:04:40.601 --> 00:04:42.311 And so schools are not the. 00:04:42.731 --> 00:04:45.671 The be all and end all written, it comes to education. 00:04:45.941 --> 00:04:52.871 They're simply a support because so much of what kids learn, they learn in their home first and last. 00:04:54.106 --> 00:04:54.226 Hmm. 00:04:56.801 --> 00:05:00.131 You know, uh, Seth Godin wrote that book, stop Stealing Dreams. 00:05:00.131 --> 00:05:04.931 And, and that one inspired me to write my first book, the Better Leaders, better Schools Roadmap. 00:05:06.191 --> 00:05:24.731 a lot of people, you know, they, they, they miss the nuance and I think it's just 'cause uh, you know, they don't read past the punchline, you know, or headline, You know, Seth is criticizing some of the stuff that schools do and, and you know, his critique is, we've heard it before, right? 00:05:24.731 --> 00:05:28.651 In terms of like the factory model and it hasn't changed, and da, da da. 00:05:29.561 --> 00:05:35.321 you know, at least something that I appreciate about him is he invites the reader to think about what the solution is, right? 00:05:35.321 --> 00:05:41.351 And give some, uh, prompts and some, um, uh, questions to, to facilitate that. 00:05:41.681 --> 00:05:44.531 Because just critiquing without solutions, you know, is like. 00:05:44.806 --> 00:05:46.216 A waste of everybody's time. 00:05:46.876 --> 00:05:58.696 But the thing that a lot of folks miss that I really appreciate about Seth, is he said, even though I'm, you know, I'm criticizing, maybe the lack of within schools, right? 00:05:58.696 --> 00:06:02.656 And adapting to the, the modern context, um, he said, you. 00:06:03.476 --> 00:06:04.466 not all their fault. 00:06:04.526 --> 00:06:07.766 And the kid's first education starts with me at 00:06:08.021 --> 00:06:08.501 Mm-hmm. 00:06:09.056 --> 00:06:12.476 So every parent needs to, and, and should take that responsibility. 00:06:12.476 --> 00:06:14.336 And I think most do, you know, some don't. 00:06:14.396 --> 00:06:20.606 Oh, well there's no, uh, certificate or class to, to pass in order to have kids. 00:06:20.606 --> 00:06:21.806 That just happens, right? 00:06:23.546 --> 00:06:24.536 um, that's the thing. 00:06:25.661 --> 00:06:35.261 You know, and, and maybe that should take some of the pressure off as well for, uh, school leaders realizing, know, um, we're not the main source of education. 00:06:35.291 --> 00:06:39.881 We are a partner with the main source of education, which is the parent, right? 00:06:40.301 --> 00:06:47.201 And how can we come alongside, you know, what families are trying to accomplish with their kids, um, to best support their dreams? 00:06:47.531 --> 00:06:50.141 So in, in that spirit, couple things that. 00:06:51.176 --> 00:06:59.516 In the past that have worked well, you know, one, uh, I remember with, with, with, um, with parents coming into high school, our admissions. 00:07:00.746 --> 00:07:08.336 Director ran a wonderful activity, which was just like, what are your hopes, dreams, and aspirations for your kids, right? 00:07:09.146 --> 00:07:12.476 parents wrote that down on note cards, which we kept. 00:07:12.926 --> 00:07:17.786 And then we would follow up with parents on like, how's progress going on this? 00:07:17.816 --> 00:07:18.176 Right? 00:07:18.206 --> 00:07:20.456 You sent little Jethro to our campus. 00:07:20.786 --> 00:07:24.296 Here's, here's what you hope, dream, you know, for, for him. 00:07:24.776 --> 00:07:25.191 And, uh. 00:07:25.911 --> 00:07:27.831 How's it going and how can we help? 00:07:27.921 --> 00:07:28.431 Right. 00:07:28.581 --> 00:07:31.011 And parents loved that activity. 00:07:31.311 --> 00:07:37.131 They loved that we actually did the activity and referred back to it too, which is, a leadership, no-no. 00:07:37.131 --> 00:07:39.561 That so many principals do, they do an activity. 00:07:39.561 --> 00:07:40.161 It seems fun. 00:07:40.161 --> 00:07:42.321 People get excited and then what? 00:07:43.911 --> 00:07:44.631 Still waiting. 00:07:44.711 --> 00:07:45.041 Yep. 00:07:45.701 --> 00:07:46.391 Crickets. 00:07:46.701 --> 00:07:48.141 So crickets. 00:07:48.381 --> 00:07:49.461 So that, that's cool. 00:07:49.491 --> 00:07:50.511 You know, following up. 00:07:50.571 --> 00:07:54.381 Then another, uh, another idea that I'll just share here to add a little more value. 00:07:55.121 --> 00:08:02.171 Um, Susie Wise, who wrote, uh, design for Belonging out of the Stanford, uh, D School, she joined me on the show. 00:08:02.171 --> 00:08:03.941 Did, did, did she come on yours too. 00:08:04.451 --> 00:08:04.521 She did. 00:08:04.521 --> 00:08:04.531 Yep. 00:08:05.321 --> 00:08:05.711 Yeah. 00:08:06.041 --> 00:08:13.241 So, you know, if you checked out that book, Jethro, if you remember that she had one activity with parents and essentially, um. 00:08:14.261 --> 00:08:15.911 During the open house, something like that. 00:08:16.301 --> 00:08:23.831 She had a a, like basically a massive T chart or two pieces of chart paper and just on one was an invitation. 00:08:23.831 --> 00:08:28.181 You know, here's something I can teach within the community as a parent. 00:08:28.241 --> 00:08:28.631 Right. 00:08:28.991 --> 00:08:29.441 Uh. 00:08:30.191 --> 00:08:32.501 A very simple example, maybe I would put on there. 00:08:32.711 --> 00:08:34.031 Do you wanna start a podcast? 00:08:34.031 --> 00:08:35.201 I could teach you that, right? 00:08:35.501 --> 00:08:37.301 I could teach you how to write a book. 00:08:37.301 --> 00:08:39.281 I could teach you the art of storytelling. 00:08:39.281 --> 00:08:40.841 There's a lot I could teach. 00:08:40.841 --> 00:08:46.181 I could teach you how to have beautiful locks of hair, right? 00:08:46.181 --> 00:08:49.511 And uh, and if you don't feel like doing your hair, you wear a hat, right? 00:08:49.511 --> 00:08:52.841 I could teach you that art in, you know, wardrobe. 00:08:53.546 --> 00:08:54.596 Cozy hoodie, you 00:08:54.671 --> 00:08:55.046 There you go. 00:08:55.646 --> 00:09:04.646 anyways, uh, and then the other, the other chart was, um, here's what I, I'd like to learn, you know, and then they, there's played matchmaker, right? 00:09:04.736 --> 00:09:08.756 Uh, in terms of like who could teach what and what did parents wanna learn? 00:09:09.116 --> 00:09:19.376 And again, this is the school partnering with parents that didn't necessarily even have to do anything with the students, it had to do with the parents and. 00:09:19.796 --> 00:09:28.076 The last piece of this little anecdote, um, I remember her telling me about a, a, a mechanic who's like, well, you know, um. 00:09:28.151 --> 00:09:30.971 Uh, people wanna learn like oil changes. 00:09:30.971 --> 00:09:32.201 I could teach oil changes. 00:09:32.591 --> 00:09:39.881 And he, he was really discounting that as a skill that would be interesting and, uh, beneficial to the community. 00:09:40.241 --> 00:09:50.471 And it was one of the most popular classes within the school because there were a lot of, um, moms and maybe single moms too, who just wanted to, to know that, right. 00:09:50.471 --> 00:09:55.901 And not have to rely on a mechanic or a guy or whatever to, you know, change the oil of a car. 00:09:56.291 --> 00:09:57.131 Um, and so. 00:09:57.396 --> 00:09:57.786 Yeah. 00:09:57.816 --> 00:09:59.916 You know, don't discount anything you can do. 00:10:00.186 --> 00:10:02.376 And how, how do you partner sort of with parents? 00:10:02.786 --> 00:10:07.076 Um, to, to connect with like where they're going and how you can help them. 00:10:07.466 --> 00:10:13.976 You do those kind of things, you know, then your school's gonna be a, a space where people wanna be a part of it. 00:10:14.306 --> 00:10:17.636 'cause what you're doing is always adding value, you know, to people's lives. 00:10:17.936 --> 00:10:22.256 So I think the last distinction is that's an active service. 00:10:22.256 --> 00:10:28.976 It's not, you have to come here and we're the experts and we know everything, and you listen to us while we shake our finger. 00:10:29.751 --> 00:10:30.771 we're gonna shake our other 00:10:30.931 --> 00:10:31.221 Yeah. 00:10:31.341 --> 00:10:35.811 you for all the reasons you know, that you suck as a parent and an adult. 00:10:36.081 --> 00:10:41.331 It's like, no, you know, you're, you, you're turning that power dynamic around, uh, and it really works. 00:10:41.331 --> 00:10:42.651 So anything you wanna 00:10:43.106 --> 00:10:43.316 Uh. 00:10:43.431 --> 00:10:44.301 add to that buddy? 00:10:44.336 --> 00:10:54.176 It's like a superpower really, because when you, when you start saying, how can we serve you and help you meet your goals, to be honest, they probably don't even have an answer. 00:10:54.206 --> 00:11:00.356 But the fact that you ask makes them think, maybe I can ask them for something else, and then they feel like they can. 00:11:00.746 --> 00:11:07.256 And so we have all these systems and processes in schools to help with wraparound services. 00:11:07.256 --> 00:11:12.056 And if you're in a Title one school, then you have to do a parent engagement plan and have parent involvement. 00:11:12.386 --> 00:11:13.106 And all that. 00:11:13.106 --> 00:11:16.316 And, and that's all looking at it backwards. 00:11:16.316 --> 00:11:21.236 We really need to be saying parents, how do we serve you in the best way possible? 00:11:21.596 --> 00:11:31.781 And this is especially important now because after COVID, so many parents realized that the school is not meeting their needs in one of several different ways. 00:11:32.276 --> 00:11:34.406 And so micro schools have come along. 00:11:34.466 --> 00:11:37.676 Homeschool homeschooling has become some such a bigger deal. 00:11:38.171 --> 00:11:40.751 Charter schools have been around and will continue to be around. 00:11:41.051 --> 00:11:48.491 More states have passed laws and are passing laws about, uh, giving funding to parents like that is just going to continue to happen. 00:11:48.911 --> 00:12:03.581 And the schools that are gonna be successful, public, private, or otherwise, are going to be the ones that serve parents and help them with what they need to happen with their kids, not the ones that are our neighborhood schools that we have to go to because we live in the neighborhood. 00:12:04.691 --> 00:12:06.341 That time is now in the past. 00:12:06.581 --> 00:12:18.221 And so if you want your school to stay up with enrollment and keep kids coming, you have to actually serve the people that are there and not just do your own thing and assume that everybody's gonna buy into it because they're not. 00:12:19.751 --> 00:12:21.641 Yeah, that's good. 00:12:22.241 --> 00:12:22.511 Thanks. 00:12:22.511 --> 00:12:22.781 Chat through. 00:12:23.111 --> 00:12:23.561 All right. 00:12:23.591 --> 00:12:28.751 So the next one is, uh, the premise is test scores are everything. 00:12:29.201 --> 00:12:33.461 And we reject that and say that we should instead of focusing on. 00:12:33.956 --> 00:12:36.596 Things that we get information about later. 00:12:36.596 --> 00:12:40.256 We focus on the inputs and we measure what matters. 00:12:40.676 --> 00:12:43.111 So what do you wanna say about this one, Danny? 00:12:45.426 --> 00:12:45.966 You know? 00:12:46.316 --> 00:12:46.606 Yeah. 00:12:46.836 --> 00:12:50.646 It's certainly not the only way to measure school success and um. 00:12:52.826 --> 00:13:04.436 You know, something I really liked, uh, when I was working in this district down in Houston, uh, the leadership would often say, you know, this is just a, a snapshot of one moment in time, right? 00:13:04.436 --> 00:13:05.276 And they were right. 00:13:05.396 --> 00:13:09.236 That was one thing they did really well was com communicate that piece. 00:13:09.656 --> 00:13:16.676 And of course, you want to do well, sort of in public facing, uh, metrics that you're held accountable to. 00:13:17.666 --> 00:13:20.396 but just understand that it's not, it's not the only thing. 00:13:21.131 --> 00:13:27.131 other problem with like, sort of this test taking, um, culture and focus, right? 00:13:27.551 --> 00:13:36.431 It, it certainly, uh, creates this environment that we don't like, which is when students are always asking, is this on the test? 00:13:36.431 --> 00:13:37.511 Is this on the test? 00:13:38.141 --> 00:13:40.121 what they're asking is, do I need to pay attention? 00:13:40.121 --> 00:13:40.361 Right? 00:13:41.081 --> 00:13:50.801 Or do I need to kind of maybe pay attention because I could be potentially tested on this in the future, and so they're trying to quickly sort through. 00:13:50.981 --> 00:13:52.871 Yeah, meaning and not meaning. 00:13:53.741 --> 00:13:55.691 told this story on the podcast before. 00:13:55.691 --> 00:14:00.941 I don't know about this one, but you know, I went and spoke to a thousand school leaders in Mombasa, Kenya. 00:14:01.346 --> 00:14:08.876 And they had a student panel and one of the, uh, students said, you know, I, I wouldn't use AI if the teacher told me, like, why this work mattered. 00:14:08.936 --> 00:14:09.176 Right. 00:14:09.176 --> 00:14:12.026 If I understood the purpose of what we were doing. 00:14:12.176 --> 00:14:18.656 And so basically said another way, I use AI to get my work done fast. 00:14:18.926 --> 00:14:21.566 If I, if I don't see the relevance. 00:14:22.271 --> 00:14:24.041 this task in my life. 00:14:24.851 --> 00:14:44.021 And so, you know, we, we have to be, connecting the dots, so to speak, and showing the relevance and maybe not maybe, and absolutely adjusting our lessons and what we teach students and, and, and what they experience. 00:14:44.051 --> 00:14:48.491 You do that and you hook them because they're like, oh, I see this in my life. 00:14:49.241 --> 00:14:51.011 This makes, makes it better for me. 00:14:51.641 --> 00:14:53.236 Um, and plus, we know. 00:14:54.311 --> 00:15:05.921 That there's actually, uh, biases and tests too, that sort of test, like kind of maybe, um, cultural knowledge and experience and might center one group versus another. 00:15:06.341 --> 00:15:09.701 Uh, but I'll never forget, I, I really wish I remembered what book. 00:15:09.731 --> 00:15:16.871 Oh, I was talking to Ted, Ted Dinner Smith, uh, big venture capitalist, and he did, uh, you know what school could be. 00:15:16.871 --> 00:15:21.731 He's got a cool new book out called Aftermath and a new documentary. 00:15:22.111 --> 00:15:27.061 Called, um, multiple choice, which everybody should definitely check out. 00:15:27.631 --> 00:15:44.881 Uh, but he, he, he was, he was looking at, um, yeah, standardized tests and how this one question actually, affluent white students all seemed to get wrong, but poorer students of color were all rocking and like investigated what was going on there. 00:15:45.661 --> 00:15:47.581 to do with, um, tips, right? 00:15:48.061 --> 00:16:01.771 Working in restaurants, uh, or in other jobs that, that work for tips and, um, yeah, like why did, why did kids in a lower economic sort of status crush this one question? 00:16:02.041 --> 00:16:08.311 Because it was relevant to, um, survival in how their families generated income, right? 00:16:08.611 --> 00:16:11.581 Whereas, uh, the students, you know, that were more affluent. 00:16:12.311 --> 00:16:15.941 They didn't really think about tips very much 'cause it wasn't a part of their experience. 00:16:15.941 --> 00:16:16.241 Right. 00:16:16.541 --> 00:16:17.381 So that's interesting. 00:16:17.381 --> 00:16:26.531 'cause that's, that's usually not how you think of, um, bias on standardized tests, but it just showed, you know, if you're talking about somebody's experience and what they, uh. 00:16:27.251 --> 00:16:28.391 What, what they, yeah. 00:16:28.391 --> 00:16:29.411 See day to day. 00:16:29.681 --> 00:16:32.081 Um, it, it had nothing to do with intelligence. 00:16:32.081 --> 00:16:34.271 It had to do with more of exposure, right? 00:16:34.631 --> 00:16:36.011 So, uh, yeah. 00:16:36.071 --> 00:16:39.521 Tests are definitely not the only way to measure success. 00:16:39.881 --> 00:16:44.141 And the last thing I'll add, you know, that's why I did the play Your game program, right? 00:16:44.441 --> 00:16:53.231 Because I, I often tell Ruckus makers, if you can't tell me the rules by which you know, you're winning the great school leadership game. 00:16:53.571 --> 00:17:01.161 Then do you understand you're playing by somebody else's rules, whether that's the state, the government, uh, the district or whatever. 00:17:01.161 --> 00:17:06.081 But you're not, you're not operating autonomously and operating outta your strengths and gifts. 00:17:06.381 --> 00:17:08.451 You're playing somebody else's game, right? 00:17:08.781 --> 00:17:13.611 And so standardized tests, that's somebody else's game, which you have to understand. 00:17:14.061 --> 00:17:17.721 And what I invite ruckus makers to do is invent the scorecard. 00:17:18.896 --> 00:17:25.166 For which you wanna be measured as successful or unsuccessful, and then do that game really, really well. 00:17:25.931 --> 00:17:33.731 Yeah, and a lot of that stuff can be focusing on the inputs and focusing on the things that you can control and what you can do. 00:17:33.881 --> 00:17:38.771 And so for example, if you want to make sure that every kid. 00:17:39.356 --> 00:17:56.876 Is known and cared about and has a positive adult, then you make sure that everybody knows more than just the kids in their classes and that you provide opportunities during the day to make sure that kids have chances to interact positively and appropriately with good adults in their lives. 00:17:57.596 --> 00:17:59.321 Those kinds of things really matter. 00:17:59.846 --> 00:18:05.606 And uh, I was interviewing, uh, Eric McKey, who is a principal in Wyoming who's awesome. 00:18:05.606 --> 00:18:06.116 And he. 00:18:06.491 --> 00:18:16.751 Did that thing where they put a little dot on all the kids that they were the positive adult for, and then they asked the kids in a survey and they said, Hey, do you have a positive adult? 00:18:17.201 --> 00:18:27.671 And while the teachers said they thought 95% of the students did, the students answered that only like a third of them had a positive adult that they could go to at the school. 00:18:28.646 --> 00:18:28.866 Wow. 00:18:29.261 --> 00:18:31.901 they flipped that and started focusing on the kids. 00:18:32.951 --> 00:18:35.261 Kept asking the kids, do you have a positive adult? 00:18:35.501 --> 00:18:36.946 And when the kids identified that they didn't. 00:18:37.601 --> 00:18:52.871 Then they made sure that they, uh, did things to make it happen where they gave kids opportunities to be involved in sports or activities or clubs or whatever it is, and they got those kids involved so that later the kids could say, yes, I do have someone. 00:18:53.141 --> 00:18:57.731 And eventually they got to, 99% of their students had a positive adult. 00:18:58.151 --> 00:19:01.511 And that's a lot different than the kids saying only a third did. 00:19:01.601 --> 00:19:04.061 When the teachers were like, oh yeah, we're doing a great job. 00:19:04.421 --> 00:19:06.161 I mean, that kind of stuff happens all the time. 00:19:06.161 --> 00:19:13.511 So you gotta look at what the kids are actually experiencing rather than just what you think they're experiencing. 00:19:14.116 --> 00:19:14.336 You. 00:19:14.341 --> 00:19:21.881 You also mentioned that kids would not use AI if they, if they had meaning or relevance to the work. 00:19:21.971 --> 00:19:33.581 And the thing is that our, our system has been perfectly designed for AI to do all of the work for us, all of the assignments and tests and everything. 00:19:33.941 --> 00:19:43.901 Is all set up to be an end product, an end result that's very easily copyable because that makes it easier to grade and it's all the same. 00:19:44.081 --> 00:19:48.251 And so our system has been designed for cheating for a long time. 00:19:49.421 --> 00:19:52.361 And because that's, that's because we focus on the wrong things. 00:19:52.691 --> 00:19:55.751 And if we focus on the process instead of the product itself. 00:19:56.126 --> 00:20:04.796 We would have a better chance of being able to intervene and, and help kids actually learn, uh, all along the way. 00:20:05.156 --> 00:20:14.306 Um, a couple other things that I just wanted to, to say is if you play your role effectively, then the rest is gonna take care of itself. 00:20:14.396 --> 00:20:19.916 And if you, it's that, uh, that old, um, what's his name? 00:20:19.916 --> 00:20:20.636 John Walsh. 00:20:21.026 --> 00:20:21.626 Steve Walsh. 00:20:21.716 --> 00:20:22.376 I can't remember. 00:20:22.841 --> 00:20:27.251 A coach of the four nine ERs who said the points will take care of themself. 00:20:27.371 --> 00:20:27.851 And 00:20:28.101 --> 00:20:28.181 Hmm. 00:20:28.541 --> 00:20:38.261 you know, if you just do your assignment and do your job and you run the play how you're supposed to run it, then the points will take care of themself and we don't even need to worry about that. 00:20:38.681 --> 00:20:43.841 Now that's really easy to say when you're winning all the time because that's what happens. 00:20:44.171 --> 00:20:51.701 But you have to have that belief before that, and you have to be working on those things before that to really see it come to be. 00:20:51.761 --> 00:20:52.241 And. 00:20:53.276 --> 00:20:59.186 Anytime somebody who is successful or a winner says something, it's like, yeah, that's easy for you to say. 00:20:59.486 --> 00:21:06.146 But the reality is anybody can say that starting today, today, this is how I'm gonna live my life today. 00:21:06.146 --> 00:21:08.126 This is how I'm gonna leave my school today. 00:21:08.126 --> 00:21:09.326 This is how we're gonna interact. 00:21:09.326 --> 00:21:11.306 And that's what, what makes it matter. 00:21:11.486 --> 00:21:18.686 Uh, one of the things that will really help with this is having systems in place to make it so that you don't have to think about these things as much. 00:21:18.716 --> 00:21:19.616 You don't have to like. 00:21:20.006 --> 00:21:37.586 Make a special point to do it because you have systems that support all of these positive inputs that support the things that you're trying to do, so that it's not just you, uh, run around like a chicken with your head cut off trying to make it all work, but that these things are almost automatic. 00:21:37.946 --> 00:21:43.376 And that's a place where AI and automation can actually be really beneficial. 00:21:43.676 --> 00:21:49.016 You know, if you know that well, let me give an explanation, uh, an example from. 00:21:49.421 --> 00:21:52.961 Years ago, this was 2000, when was this? 00:21:52.961 --> 00:22:04.451 2012. Um, we had a bunch of behavior problems at my Title one school, and we needed to communicate with parents and we needed to communicate with teachers and we needed the kids to understand where they were at. 00:22:04.841 --> 00:22:10.301 And it seemed like everything we were doing was just like a bunch of busy work and wasn't really working. 00:22:11.321 --> 00:22:17.261 And we figured out how to take the student tracker where the kids got rated by their teachers every day. 00:22:17.321 --> 00:22:22.466 So they got immediate feedback at the end of their period and knew what was going on and how they were behaving. 00:22:23.891 --> 00:22:29.171 And then they would come to the office, get a little stamp on that, and we would put it through a scanner. 00:22:29.501 --> 00:22:39.491 That scanner would read the student's ID number, and then it would send an email to the parent so that by the time the kid got out to the car, the parent already had an email saying, this is how your kid did today. 00:22:39.761 --> 00:22:45.641 Because somehow that paper to show them would magically disappear between the office and the car. 00:22:45.971 --> 00:22:49.151 I don't know how it happened, but what that enabled. 00:22:49.196 --> 00:22:50.126 Recycling 00:22:50.531 --> 00:22:51.311 recycling. 00:22:51.311 --> 00:22:51.881 There you go. 00:22:52.061 --> 00:22:54.731 These kids really, really cared about the environment. 00:22:55.151 --> 00:23:03.641 So what was so amazing is that when we started doing this, that doesn't mean that the parents read these all the time, but the kid, and we knew that. 00:23:04.406 --> 00:23:06.536 The parent was gonna get this and it was there. 00:23:06.656 --> 00:23:08.336 And so it increased communication. 00:23:08.606 --> 00:23:13.376 It gave them an opportunity to reply to us, uh, right away with any issues that came up. 00:23:13.706 --> 00:23:19.586 And we could talk through things very quickly instead of, yeah, let's schedule a meeting for next week. 00:23:19.676 --> 00:23:25.226 Uh, these, these systems that we put in place made it so that the communication was that much better. 00:23:25.496 --> 00:23:28.196 And that's what really was able to change our school. 00:23:28.496 --> 00:23:31.571 Not just that we were working hard with these kids, which we were anyway. 00:23:32.201 --> 00:23:41.141 But the work was actually meaningful and was a system that made it possible for us to do our best work every single day, and those systems are super important. 00:23:42.471 --> 00:23:43.161 That's right. 00:23:43.251 --> 00:23:46.011 I really liked what you said about focusing on the process, right? 00:23:46.011 --> 00:23:49.011 It's the inputs that we have control over and not the outcomes. 00:23:49.701 --> 00:23:51.051 My little drawing just had to do with, um. 00:23:51.746 --> 00:23:52.036 Okay. 00:23:52.296 --> 00:23:54.336 You know, knowledge known for a test, right? 00:23:54.336 --> 00:23:59.226 You could see that where my finger is, there's just like three dots and they're kind of all talking to each other. 00:23:59.586 --> 00:24:04.206 And then the other side says, knowledge, you know, needed, um, for life. 00:24:04.266 --> 00:24:05.706 And there's just a lot more going on. 00:24:05.736 --> 00:24:06.066 Right. 00:24:06.096 --> 00:24:06.276 And 00:24:07.191 --> 00:24:07.611 Yeah, 00:24:07.686 --> 00:24:08.436 what it's about. 00:24:08.691 --> 00:24:13.461 so my picture was a, uh, was a, what's it called? 00:24:13.521 --> 00:24:14.181 Assembly line. 00:24:14.766 --> 00:24:22.086 Then there's inputs where all the people are and outputs, and nobody's paying attention to the outputs because they're just taking care of themselves. 00:24:22.116 --> 00:24:25.206 Their work is all on the, on the inputs over on the side. 00:24:26.241 --> 00:24:26.421 Yeah. 00:24:26.421 --> 00:24:27.171 Makes sense. 00:24:28.476 --> 00:24:32.076 Okay, next one. 00:24:32.676 --> 00:24:35.676 The status quo is the safe path forward. 00:24:35.946 --> 00:24:40.116 That is the pre premise that we reject and, uh. 00:24:40.701 --> 00:24:44.481 The, the new premise, this is the one that I love from you. 00:24:44.481 --> 00:24:46.401 Ruckus makers are time travelers. 00:24:46.671 --> 00:24:49.671 They see the future and tell everyone else about it. 00:24:50.451 --> 00:24:59.901 Um, and one of the things that we have to recognize is that the system that we have is designed for exactly the results that we're getting. 00:25:00.591 --> 00:25:05.661 And we do not think about that enough because, uh. 00:25:06.171 --> 00:25:08.691 We just think, oh, I can't do anything about this. 00:25:08.691 --> 00:25:12.681 But the reality is that our system was designed specifically to get this outcome. 00:25:12.711 --> 00:25:14.031 That's why we're getting the outcome. 00:25:14.451 --> 00:25:22.431 So if we want to change the outcome, then let's work on changing our system and making it different from what, what it has been. 00:25:23.001 --> 00:25:32.031 Um, and, and the thing that I like about this is that every time you're frustrated or something isn't working right, that is a clear signal. 00:25:32.061 --> 00:25:33.141 It's like a bat signal. 00:25:33.546 --> 00:25:36.876 You can change this even if you don't think you can. 00:25:37.386 --> 00:25:47.076 I, I promise you, you can change it in some way, shape or form, whether that's your own attitude towards it or actually making a difference and a change in, in what is going on. 00:25:47.646 --> 00:25:54.096 And so if you see something that you don't like, then make the changes and, and that's exactly what needs to happen. 00:25:54.096 --> 00:25:56.136 You look in the future and say, what do I want? 00:25:56.226 --> 00:25:58.266 And then work to make that happen. 00:25:58.686 --> 00:26:01.176 And it's not easy, but it is very simple. 00:26:03.666 --> 00:26:03.886 Hmm. 00:26:05.526 --> 00:26:05.616 Yeah. 00:26:05.616 --> 00:26:10.506 When it comes to the, the status quo, I say that play it safe principles, right? 00:26:10.506 --> 00:26:16.326 They pro, they protect that probably 'cause the status quo is safe. 00:26:16.356 --> 00:26:17.676 We know how to do it. 00:26:18.246 --> 00:26:23.196 There's books and literature and manuals and like how to operate the school this way. 00:26:24.096 --> 00:26:32.556 why when I talk about the opposite of played safe principles, ruckus makers, I do say there are visitors from the future showing us how education can one day be. 00:26:33.921 --> 00:26:35.361 And the future of education. 00:26:35.361 --> 00:26:36.741 There's no manual, right? 00:26:36.741 --> 00:26:39.081 So it requires leadership and innovation. 00:26:39.981 --> 00:26:43.341 You know, there's a, there's a story about these, um, two business owners. 00:26:43.341 --> 00:26:49.101 They're at a conference and they're just talking about, you know, what works, what doesn't work, how to grow, your business type of thing. 00:26:49.581 --> 00:26:56.121 And, uh, they get to the topic of like their staff and how they're supported, right? 00:26:56.121 --> 00:26:56.961 And developed. 00:26:58.071 --> 00:26:59.841 this one business owner. 00:27:00.171 --> 00:27:12.441 Puts a tremendous amount of resources into his people and the other, you know, his colleague he's talking to at the event is like, well, aren't you worried you're gonna invest so much in those people? 00:27:12.501 --> 00:27:16.881 And then they leave, they go for greener pastures and then different organization. 00:27:17.361 --> 00:27:18.021 He said, no. 00:27:18.021 --> 00:27:23.001 What keeps me up at night is if I, uh, don't invest in my people and they stay. 00:27:24.441 --> 00:27:27.801 That's, that's exactly the same thing when it 00:27:28.071 --> 00:27:28.291 Yes. 00:27:28.911 --> 00:27:30.711 and the status quo, right? 00:27:31.581 --> 00:27:39.591 change, it's scary because in, in some respects, you don't know what's gonna happen next, but that's also a bit exciting. 00:27:40.341 --> 00:27:42.741 I think what's scarier is like not. 00:27:43.146 --> 00:27:52.026 Changing, not evolving, taking risks at times, and, uh, seeing how we can evolve, like if we stayed the same forever. 00:27:52.506 --> 00:27:59.166 What a boring, terrible, lack of imaginative experience, right? 00:27:59.166 --> 00:28:01.056 For education and everybody involved. 00:28:02.586 --> 00:28:06.696 yeah, status quo isn't safe at all. 00:28:07.326 --> 00:28:08.611 It's the riskiest thing you can do. 00:28:10.266 --> 00:28:11.766 Yeah, I, I agree. 00:28:12.276 --> 00:28:22.056 You know, the, the idea of, um, there not being a manual for the future, uh, is some people see that as scary. 00:28:22.476 --> 00:28:24.931 I actually see that as freeing because you get to write the manual. 00:28:26.136 --> 00:28:28.896 You get to say, this is what the future's going to look like. 00:28:29.016 --> 00:28:44.946 And we all have that capacity and we can all predict the future to a certain extent because we can say, I'm going to do these things, and these things will result in positive results or results period. 00:28:45.096 --> 00:28:53.586 Uh, but just sitting around doing the same old thing that you've done for the last 20 years, uh, is not going to be benefiting anyone. 00:28:54.291 --> 00:28:57.951 It's not going to be helping you, uh, improve your school in any way. 00:28:58.461 --> 00:29:03.111 Uh, the picture that I have for this one is, is just somebody picking up trash. 00:29:04.596 --> 00:29:05.166 Okay. 00:29:05.661 --> 00:29:11.961 if you, if you think that it's really a problem, then you just need to do something about it. 00:29:12.201 --> 00:29:22.281 So I, I drew this because at my first school where I was assistant principal, um, there was, there was this issue where kids would just leave stuff around and. 00:29:23.316 --> 00:29:23.736 Mm-hmm. 00:29:23.781 --> 00:29:28.401 The principal wanted to like lecture the kids and say, you guys have to clean up. 00:29:28.851 --> 00:29:30.291 And, um, 00:29:30.321 --> 00:29:30.921 That worked. 00:29:30.981 --> 00:29:38.931 and yeah, that didn't, and so I, I, being the assistant principal was the one to implement that job and it sucked. 00:29:39.081 --> 00:29:40.761 And so, uh, I, 00:29:40.761 --> 00:29:41.691 you wag your finger? 00:29:41.691 --> 00:29:42.561 Because if you didn't wag your 00:29:42.651 --> 00:29:48.906 I did, I, I wagged my finger and I was like, you kids need to do this and you need to pick up your trash and clean up the, uh. 00:29:49.596 --> 00:29:52.146 Clean up the cafeteria and it was terrible. 00:29:52.266 --> 00:29:53.586 And, and everybody hated it. 00:29:53.586 --> 00:29:54.396 Nobody liked it. 00:29:54.786 --> 00:29:59.556 And then this one teacher, she goes, uh, I'm just gonna start cleaning up. 00:30:00.006 --> 00:30:06.006 And she just started cleaning up and as soon as she started cleaning up, another teacher was like, I guess I could help clean up. 00:30:06.216 --> 00:30:12.036 So she started cleaning up and, and then the kids were like, oh, we could clean up too. 00:30:12.456 --> 00:30:15.486 And, and everybody thought these poor Title one kids. 00:30:15.996 --> 00:30:19.596 Didn't know how to clean up, didn't know how to take care of things, didn't care about anything. 00:30:20.106 --> 00:30:29.406 And so then the kids started cleaning up also, and me wagging my finger, did nothing but the teachers saying, I want this school to be better. 00:30:29.616 --> 00:30:30.696 I'm gonna start doing this. 00:30:31.056 --> 00:30:35.616 And what they started doing is they started picking up trash in the halls outside on the playground. 00:30:36.576 --> 00:30:46.356 One teacher when she was on, uh, playground duty, she was just, her playground duty was just walking around, picking up trash, and then kids would follow her and be like, can I pick up trash too? 00:30:46.446 --> 00:30:47.556 She'd be like, of course. 00:30:47.646 --> 00:30:55.086 And she'd have a bag and then kids would be surrounding her just picking up trash out in the field where we were at, there was a big field and there was a train track next to it, and so. 00:30:55.391 --> 00:30:58.241 There was a lot of debris that would come off of, off of that. 00:30:58.241 --> 00:31:00.341 And, and so we always had trash. 00:31:00.401 --> 00:31:03.071 It wasn't ours, but she just wanted it to be a better place. 00:31:03.611 --> 00:31:14.201 She took the initiative and did something about it and people followed and, and that's what it's like to be a remaker is that you, you do something and people are like, I want that too. 00:31:14.261 --> 00:31:15.341 And then they start doing it. 00:31:15.341 --> 00:31:18.191 And so that's why my picture is just somebody picking up trash. 00:31:18.191 --> 00:31:20.381 'cause it's very simple, but it does make a difference. 00:31:22.641 --> 00:31:29.211 It's lecturing versus modeling, lecturing versus doing, you know, uh, be the change you wanna see in the world. 00:31:29.211 --> 00:31:29.481 Right? 00:31:29.481 --> 00:31:32.241 Is that Gandhi and, uh, Derek Siver, Ted 00:31:32.361 --> 00:31:32.781 Mm-hmm. 00:31:32.931 --> 00:31:34.011 How to start a movement. 00:31:34.071 --> 00:31:37.431 You're just the first guy dancing, and then there's two and three, and then it's a whole. 00:31:37.851 --> 00:31:39.981 You know, field full of people dancing. 00:31:39.981 --> 00:31:43.371 So, you know, that's, that's part of, uh, what we're talking about here. 00:31:43.641 --> 00:31:52.161 I think the other thing, you know, with this status quo, and you, you, you mentioned how it could be scary, like, oh, there's no manuals, and, and you said that's freeing. 00:31:52.641 --> 00:31:52.941 Right? 00:31:52.941 --> 00:32:04.396 The other, the other thing I really want to double click on here for the ruckus maker enjoying this content is that, um, makes you irreplaceable if you're willing to. 00:32:05.121 --> 00:32:07.131 Go on the reject the premise. 00:32:07.131 --> 00:32:23.601 Do school a different journey with us because all, all the jobs that are at risk, right, of being disrupted and, uh, absolutely, you know, eliminated by ai, that's because there's a manual for how to do it. 00:32:24.291 --> 00:32:33.181 AI needs context in order to, uh, make some guesses and that kind of stuff, but it can't create like net new things without us still. 00:32:34.386 --> 00:32:35.106 At least for now. 00:32:35.586 --> 00:32:46.626 So the only way to actually have security and safety is to leap into the unknown and create net new value and to create the future right now, today, right? 00:32:47.016 --> 00:32:53.106 Because if, if it's already been done, can do it, but faster and cheaper if it hasn't been done. 00:32:53.916 --> 00:32:56.016 where humans really can shine. 00:32:56.376 --> 00:32:58.236 And so that's an interesting. 00:32:58.881 --> 00:33:00.111 Tension, right. 00:33:00.111 --> 00:33:03.636 That education's being forced to with right now. 00:33:04.551 --> 00:33:16.431 And one of the things I've been saying about AI for months is if the computer can actually do the job better than an, than a person can, it's. 00:33:16.881 --> 00:33:20.031 It's ridiculous to have the person do that work. 00:33:21.051 --> 00:33:29.991 And that's where the work of leadership, the work of leading schools, has to be unique and developed for the people that are right there in front of you. 00:33:30.531 --> 00:33:36.591 Um, that's what my book School X is all about is that it's about designing your school for the people that are right there in front of you. 00:33:36.981 --> 00:33:41.841 And you have to do that because the people that are there in front of you are unique. 00:33:42.651 --> 00:33:44.961 And they need things that not everybody else needs. 00:33:44.961 --> 00:33:53.001 And if you're not willing to do that, then they're gonna go find someplace else to do it and someplace else will do it. 00:33:53.331 --> 00:34:02.031 And there are a lot of people who are working on making, uh, ai, uh, solutions for a lot of the work that we do in schools. 00:34:02.121 --> 00:34:09.201 And the reality is, is that the human aspect, the creative aspect, can't be replicated yet. 00:34:09.606 --> 00:34:14.196 It can look like it, but it's not quite, there Can't create something new yet. 00:34:14.256 --> 00:34:15.306 Maybe it never will. 00:34:15.366 --> 00:34:16.206 We don't know that yet. 00:34:16.206 --> 00:34:20.586 But it right now, certainly you have to be that creative force. 00:34:20.586 --> 00:34:22.686 You have to be that unique force that's doing things. 00:34:22.686 --> 00:34:26.706 So, um, alright, well that's, that's all I got for today. 00:34:26.706 --> 00:34:28.296 Anything you want to say before we close? 00:34:30.156 --> 00:34:31.026 No, it's been fun. 00:34:31.026 --> 00:34:35.796 I know we got some more to still, uh, record, but we'll keep rocking and rolling with it. 00:34:35.796 --> 00:34:38.461 And, you know, ruckus makers reject the promise, so. 00:34:39.846 --> 00:34:40.596 We got a lot. 00:34:40.836 --> 00:34:42.276 This is, these are my note cards, man. 00:34:42.456 --> 00:34:44.616 This is the stack of what's left. 00:34:44.856 --> 00:34:48.396 So we still got, we got plenty to go through. 00:34:48.666 --> 00:34:50.166 So plus more that we'll, 00:34:50.271 --> 00:34:51.711 if a dog ate my note cards. 00:34:51.711 --> 00:34:52.281 I don't have that 00:34:52.326 --> 00:34:52.626 ah, 00:34:54.846 --> 00:34:55.656 well that's fun. 00:34:56.226 --> 00:34:57.036 Good times. 00:34:57.051 --> 00:35:04.581 It is fun and uh, I'll tell you this, just the way I'm built, but you know, I'll talk on any topic, so 00:35:04.686 --> 00:35:05.376 That's right. 00:35:05.481 --> 00:35:05.841 good. 00:35:05.976 --> 00:35:06.846 We got this. 00:35:07.116 --> 00:35:08.016 Alright, next. 00:35:08.106 --> 00:35:11.736 Next reject The premise is gonna be on Danny Show Better Leaders, better Schools. 00:35:11.766 --> 00:35:16.746 Make sure you're following along on that one and continue following along on this one. 00:35:16.746 --> 00:35:19.326 For other great interviews and a continuation of this. 00:35:19.326 --> 00:35:22.146 We're probably gonna get to like 50 episodes of this when we're done. 00:35:23.256 --> 00:35:23.916 50 00:35:24.246 --> 00:35:25.086 Who knows, man. 00:35:25.596 --> 00:35:26.886 We should have started a whole new 00:35:27.291 --> 00:35:28.341 Yeah, no kidding. 00:35:29.241 --> 00:35:31.941 Well, we still could actually, maybe we should do that. 00:35:33.961 --> 00:35:34.621 No, we'll see. 00:35:34.791 --> 00:35:35.211 Okay. 00:35:35.391 --> 00:35:41.841 Well, we actually are gonna do that because I'm gonna put all of these from your show and my show, we'll still do the same thing. 00:35:41.841 --> 00:35:49.066 We'll still put 'em on ours, but we're gonna have another feed that is just reject the premise and then we'll just multicast on that one. 00:35:50.121 --> 00:35:51.711 Multicast. 00:35:51.951 --> 00:35:55.881 I've got the podcast network, I can have as many shows in there as I want. 00:35:55.881 --> 00:36:01.311 So, um, I've got like 60 shows in my account right now, which is, uh, pretty wild. 00:36:01.401 --> 00:36:02.691 And so anytime somebody's like, 00:36:02.781 --> 00:36:03.561 more than me. 00:36:03.801 --> 00:36:05.211 Hey, I got an idea for a show. 00:36:05.211 --> 00:36:07.941 I'm like, well, let's run with it and try it and see how it goes. 00:36:08.631 --> 00:36:08.691 Yeah. 00:36:08.721 --> 00:36:11.031 'cause there's, there's so much good stuff out there. 00:36:11.031 --> 00:36:11.361 So. 00:36:11.991 --> 00:36:13.731 All right, I'm gonna work on that. 00:36:13.821 --> 00:36:21.351 We will have a new, we'll have a new podcast up and running by the time this is out, so, all right. 00:36:21.351 --> 00:36:22.101 Thanks Danny. 00:36:22.371 --> 00:36:22.611 Alright. 00:36:23.001 --> 00:36:23.541 You bet.