In this "Behind the Keyboard" interview, we get writing, publishing, and book marketing advice from traditionally-published author Kait Ballenger, author of Original Sinner and many other books.
Interview Transcript
J. G. Gates
Hi and welcome to Behind the Keyboard where we explore the writing process of some of our favorite authors. Today we have Kate Ballinger with us. Kate is an award-winning author of dark romantasy and paranormal romance. She is obsessed with tales of morally gray, sometimes villainous heroes, and can't resist a spicy redemption arc. When Kate's not busy writing kinky paranormal fantasy, she can usually be found with her nose buried in someone else's naughty books. She lives in Florida's Bible Belt with her husband and two adorable sons, and she will gladly use that belt to whip you.
Kate, welcome. Thank you for being here.
Kait Ballenger
Thanks so much for having me.
J. G. Gates
So let's dive right in. So my first question is kind of open-ended, deliberately tell us a little bit about your writing process. Just like walk us through what it's like for you to approach a book from beginning to end.
Kait Ballenger
So it's definitely changed over the course of my career. I tend to be more of like a discovery writer or a panster as some people call it. I like discovery writer because it sounds like nicer. But I will say at the beginning of my career, I would plot out bigger plot beats like before I even started, right? Looking at like what's the inciting incident turning point one, right?
J. G. Gates
That's true.
Kait Ballenger
I can go through some of the bigger story arc structure and only then would I start to put pin to page. But I've leaned into my discovery writer-ness. we have a cat appearing with us. Welcome, pet friends. But I've leaned more into this discovery writer even more as I've started.
J. G. Gates
Good. Embrace the cats, please. Of course.
Kait Ballenger
…Continuing in my career. And so for the original Sinner series specifically, this was very much a joy project for me. It was a passion project. So it just was like, I was going on vibes at the start of it. Like I had like a couple songs that were like, you know, sparking inspiration and like varying ideas for scenes. But when I sat down, I was really just kind of letting it free flow. I do tend to edit a lot as I go. So like once I drafted a scene before I move on to the next one, the following day if I come back to it I will go through and I will edit the previous scene as a means of almost getting back in the mindset of where I was previously. So there ends up being a lot of like iteration in the process even though I'm a discovery writer so my drafts really come out relatively clean at the end because I do so much editing, but it just kind of helps me get back in the mindset of where I was going with the story. But, very much a panster.
J. G. Gates
I love that. And it's so interesting, because I feel like that's one of the pieces of advice that you see people say is like, never edit as you go, right? Like always, like get it on paper, get the whole thing done. Don't worry about editing as you go. But I think, you know, what you're saying makes sense to like when you sit back down again, it takes a minute to get back into the world. So like, you know, why not reread that past scene, do a little revision on it, and then you're like fully back into the world to continue ahead.
Kait Ballenger
Exactly, , and like and I definitely do that in like chunks too because like I follow basically the W plot method and so like and I love using that and so I break the book basically into four acts and so like I Iterate the pages like as I'm writing the first act of like okay I'm editing and I'll go back to stuff that I've already edited even and kind of read through it like make little notes like as I'm going and then once I get to the end of that section and that section's polished then I go on to the next section. And I know a lot of writers definitely give that advice of like, don't edit as you go, but for me, it helps me get back in the mindset, it helps me continue on in the story, and then when I'm finished, I have a really polished draft that is like basically ready to go off to my editor.
So for me, the writing would not go faster if I didn't do the editing. The editing is a part of that process. I don't know if you're familiar with Becca Syme and her Write Better Faster courses, but I always just, I trust my intuition on that. That's the way it works best for me. And so my advice to writers is always to just go with, find what works best for you, trust your intuition, because it's going to be different for every writer.
J. G. Gates
That's so true. There's really as many varied processes as there are writers out there, right? You mentioned the W plot method. Can you tell us what that is a little bit? Because I'm not familiar with it either. I haven't heard of that myself, so.
Kait Ballenger
Yes. So, it's a plot structure that like it's very visual. It looks like an actual W, right? And so you start with the inciting incident is like the start of the W. And then as you're going down and you're getting like the problems are deepening for the main characters, right? Until you get to another like the bottom of the first part of the W would be another turning point, right? And then so your midpoint is your midpoint high and then you've your black moment which is like the major low of the story going up into the resolution of like the height of everything being resolved and so it's frequently used in screenwriting I would say and I love the visualness of it because what I don't love as much about other plotting structures even though a lot of them are very similar is that it I feel like other plotting structures don't really
give you the right rise and fall visual of the action, right? Because like when that inciting incident happens in the story, like everything's gonna get worse for the character up until they decide to basically accept that they need to go on this journey, right? And so I love the visualness of like the the downward spiral of things going bad for the hero or heroine and then you reach that turning point and things start to get better for a little bit. They start to think that it's figured out into they hit the climax and then no maybe I don't have this figured out the way I thought I was going to. So it's a very visual like plotting method with basic like turning points on it.
J. G. Gates
That's really true. mean, as I think through what you're saying, it definitely, my outlining process is very, it's like a Frankenstein mishmash of all different theories of plot, but all of it's kind of the same in a way, right? And it does sort of follow that. And I think I do like that visually that really points out the midpoint in the story that is important. So, that's great.
Kait Ballenger
Midpoint is so important and so like, oftentimes like, it helps me because then I know that like, okay, the midpoint, my character really has to feel like they're on top of the world and then I've got to just rip the rug out from underneath them. Yes.
J. G. Gates
Right, right. , they've been developing that mastery or their plan or whatever and it's like, finally did it. And it's like, of course the reader's like, but it's only the middle of the book. know, . .
Kait Ballenger
Then it's like everything's downhill from there, like uh-oh, we're headed toward the black moment at that point.
J. G. Gates
That's great. I like that a lot. So I'm gonna ask you a question that is a question that I get asked a lot. And I feel like people ask authors all the time. And it's always really hard to answer. but I feel like people will want to know so where do your ideas come from? Or where do you most often find inspiration for your story ideas?
Kait Ballenger
It's so many things. I mean, it can be like, you know, ideas of other books I'm reading where it's like, I like that. I want to do something similar but different, or it can be like shows I'm watching or even music I'm listening to. With the original Sinner series in particular, I've been really music-driven. And so like, I'll just hear a song and it brings almost a visualization of a scene to your head. And a lot of the time, I don't know where that scene fits into the story, but I just kind of take down a little note of like, this is going to come along at some point. Right? And like, and somehow when you sit down, like, you know, it ends up coming together. It kind of feels in some ways magical, right? cause you're like, where is all of this coming from? But it's, it's very much a subconscious process. And so for original center, specifically that series it was kind of born out of one of those similar but different concepts is because I was at the time that I started writing that I was very into reading Hades Persephone stories which was very popular in romantasy for a period and still is right and there was a lot of Hades Persephone retellings and I was just eating them up as a reader and one of my sort of guiding principles as a is that I don't write anything that I wouldn't love to read because if I'm not having fun, the reader isn't going to be having fun.
So I kind of start with the things I like to read, which for me is always in the romance genre. And so I knew I wanted to write like a Hades Persephone style story, but there were already so many Hades Persephone books on the market. And so then it was kind of a thought exercise of like, well, what would Hades look like if I put him in a different pantheon, right? And so then the idea came to me that Lucifer is the Hades of Christian mythology, basically. And so I was like, with the main character is Lucifer, it's not just gonna be him, like he's gonna have these siblings and they're gonna be the seven deadly sins and like and you sort of start with one small thought exercise and then it all just sort of builds out from there, at least for me. And so like right now I'm working on one of the later books in the series, so book three, Beautiful Redeemer, is coming out in May, but I'm working on a story actually about one of Lucifer's siblings. That is gonna be kind of a spinoff to that main series. And sometimes, like, I heard a song recently that I was like, , like it just lit up my brain of like, here's an idea for this specific scene in this story. And then now I've got to figure out how that fits into the greater story arc.
J. G. Gates
No, that sounds really fun though. I have had similar experiences too where it's like, okay, you have an idea. And then sometimes it's like that secondary idea that kind of makes it pop, too. Like, you know, this character is gonna be a Hades and Persephone.
There's gonna be a Lucifer love interest in there. That sounds cool. And then it's like… and the siblings are the seven deadly sins. And it's like, okay, that's like the extra thing that kind of pushes it over the top, right? To give it that other texture that you're like, okay, this is interesting.
Kait Ballenger
Yeah. You add in elements. Like for Original Sinner specifically, once I had Lucifer and the Seven Deadly Sins, it was like, okay, well, if they're the embodiment of their sin, it's like, okay, well, what are they gonna be doing? If they're these billionaires, what do their companies look like? So for Lucifer, being pride, he owns a luxury goods company that is basically modeled after LVMH, which is LVTANMO, Hennessy, which is one of the richest companies in the world, right? Bernard Arnault is the owner and he's like one of the top billionaires in the world. And so once you start like going down that rabbit hole, it's like, okay, , so Lucifer owns this luxury goods company. Like you're never going to find him wearing anything other than like Armani and Versace, right? Like he's very much like he's prideful. So he's going to behave that way. And like you carry that idea sort of outward and it resonates throughout like the series and like gives a unique flavor.
J. G. Gates
I find that too. Like once you reach sort of a critical mass of an idea, then you're just kind of riffing off it, right? I don't want to say it writes itself because it's not that easy, but like you get all that you get those pieces in place and then it just like, just vibes out from there, right? .
Kait Ballenger
Yes, yes. Exactly. So once I was like riffing on that, like you said, it's like, okay, well, you know, Gluttony would be in the restaurant industry, of course, right? Like he owns the Food Network and Sloth is like in streaming. He owns basically what's Netflix in the series, right? you know, and you just kind of let the idea sort of snowball from there.
J. G. Gates
Right. That's so fun. That reminds me of the process of my Luck God series too, which is about demigods with the power to control luck and they're part of the card suits, right? So it's kind of the same thing, like where you're thinking about like, okay, well, what would a, you know, King of Spades be like or whatever? it's, you know, , it's, , so that's really fun. Okay, that's great.
Kait Ballenger
Yes, exactly.
J. G. Gates
When you are thinking about those concepts, do you try to write to market? Are you more of a mood writer? Like where do you fall in that?
Kait Ballenger
I would say I'm somewhere kind of in between on the spectrum. For this series, it was very much a like... I just was gonna write what I was gonna write. But at the same time, I got lucky in that what I was writing was where the market was headed. Like, so I always kind of have one eye on the market because I, you know, I've been in the industry long enough at this point that I know that I'm not the type of writer that I'm just gonna write something that is totally off the wall that I think won't sell. Because, you know, I do this for my living. Like, I I want to sell books because I want to pay my bills, right? So it's somewhere in between for me. I'm never writing something just because it's what's popular. Again, it kind of goes back to this is what I love to read. And I've written paranormal and fantasy romance for a very long time. So I just really got lucky that the market was coming back around to romantasy at the time that it was to really lean into that.
Because I know there's subgenres where unless my reading preferences drastically changed, I'm like, even if that was popular, it wouldn't be what I was writing, right? But I do keep an eye on the market just to a certain extent. It's somewhere in between for me, right? Middle of the road.
J. G. Gates
Yeah, and it's important for listeners to know that you are traditionally published, right? You've always been traditionally published, correct? So, okay.
Kait Ballenger
For the most part most. All my books are traditionally published except for a few that I got the rights back on that I did indie. And when I wrote Original Sinner, right, because it was such a joy project, I went into it with the idea that it could potentially just be a self-published project. So like my plan was basically like, okay, I'm writing this book for me. And if I like if trad doesn't want it, like I'm gonna end up self-publishing it, I'm gonna take an indie because this is just what I want to be writing. At this period and I think it has a market whether it's trad or indie. And the interesting story there is that Original Center like sat on desks of editors for quite a few months and I was just like waiting to hear back and finally it reached a point where I was like the market is really here and if y'all don't jump on this basically it's gonna be too late so I called my agent and was like look you have a like a week left if you don't get any responses from anybody I'm taking this indie because I'm not waiting any longer and it was week to the day that she called me back and said that Amazon had offered Montlake and I was like okay like like who's gonna say no to Amazon?
J. G. Gates
Right. That's awesome. We live in a time where you can do any of those things, right? You can go traditional, but if it doesn't align with what is being published traditionally, it's like there's a lot of tools to do it yourself.
Kait Ballenger
Exactly. And I'm really glad that we have that sort of freedom, especially with what I'm working on now, I've got the spinoff for the Original Center series in the works. if Montlake decides that they want it, I'll gladly publish with them again. But if they don't, I can continue the spinoff without them. readers aren't going to know the difference. The titles are in KU either way. And so read on.
J. G. Gates
It's a wonderful time to be an author for sure, for that reason. So what are some of the ways that you've worked to connect with readers?
Kait Ballenger
My biggest way that I typically connect with the readers is either via my newsletter, which I send out twice a month, and... I've very much like put lots of behind the scenes things of what I've been up to, what I've been reading, what I've been watching, like, you know, just little personal anecdotes in there. But also, I like to connect with readers at in-person events. You know, I'm on social media, I'm on TikTok and Instagram and like I post there regularly, but I'm not, that's not my favorite thing. I much prefer writing my newsletter and getting more in-depth with readers than on socials because, you know,
I like social media, I'm not like everybody does, right? Like to a certain degree, but like the demands of how much you have to post there is a lot. And I like that when I have readers on my newsletter, I can just keep connecting with them again and again. And if they wanna talk to me, they sometimes like shoot me an email back in response to my newsletter and we get to chat a little bit. And then like they'll come up to me at signings and be like, I messaged you. like, and so that's a lovely way to just kind of get to see them more in person because to a certain degree social media kind of feels a little impersonal.
J. G. Gates
You know, it's funny though, I have to compliment you on your social media because I think that was actually one of the things that sort of inspired me to jump on trying TikTok because I think you were resharing some of the videos that you'd made and I was like, Kate seems like she's having fun on there, you know, and I was like, I could try that, I could do it.
Kait Ballenger
Thank you. I will say I have more fun on TikTok than probably any other platform just because like when I when it first came out and I was like fiddling around with it I was like, okay, like I'll give this a try and I just feel like video content in particular feels way more personal than just static posts and so like I I do definitely prefer like TikTok as a platform Just because it's fun to like interact with other creators and like riff off things so like so I like I I went really hard at TikTok for a while and then had to like back off cuz I was like okay this is sucking up a lot of my writing time. Yes. But I am still active on TikTok. I post probably like every other day and it's not always videos with me in them but there's always like something going on so it's a mix of things.
J. G. Gates
It can do that, that's true. I feel that way too, though, about the video mediums and Instagram too. I like it because it I think because it is a little story, right? Even if it's just you saying something for seven seconds, it's a little story. It's got a little beginning, middle and end and takes people on a little journey.
Kait Ballenger
There's definitely an element of storytelling to it that is nice.
J. G. Gates
And it's like its own little creation. You know, like, I don't know, I have fun doing it too compared to say, like, X, Twitter or whatever. I'm not good at that. feel like I should be because I should be able as a writer to write a nice, like snappy little two sentence thing that makes people laugh or whatever. But I suck at that. It's hard for me.
Kait Ballenger
Haha. I have a hard time with like X or threads or things like that and like and like and even when it comes to Instagram like the like the really beautiful like bookstagram post I'm like who has the time to set those up so like I'm you're much more likely to see me just like telling you about my books in a video or like you know goofing off to some funny sound bite than you are to like see like a lot of static posts.
J. G. Gates
I can't do that either. I really admire people with those beautiful pictures, but I guess I need some dried flowers and a dagger and a rodent skull. I don't have any of that stuff. You have to get so many things to make those pretty pictures. Like a velvet drape to lay it all on or something. I don't have that.
Kait Ballenger
Right? . Exactly. I don't have that visual aesthetic ability, so...
J. G. Gates
Me neither. I know it's so tough. So we're kind of in the area of of marketing a little bit and I know that for People who've made the leap from writers to being authors and getting their books out there The plug your ears if you if you haven't been published yet, but marketing is often the hardest part I don't I don't like to tell people who are beginning that but even even harder than writing sometimes is the marketing as a traditionally published author
Kait Ballenger
Yes. Yes.
J. G. Gates
We presume that hopefully your publisher is doing a lot for that. But what are some of the things that you've done or that your publisher has done that you've observed that have helped to actually move the needle in terms of marketing your books?
Kait Ballenger
I feel like... The biggest thing that I've done personally to market them is definitely keeping my newsletter, because once those readers are on your newsletter, you can reach them time and time again unless they unsubscribe. So I think having that, sometimes I've often done with my titles that were trad and are now indie because the rights have reverted to me, some of my older Harlequin titles, but those I've done a lot of swaps, like free book funnels, sort of things that have been helpful to really build up those readers on my newsletter. And then they, you know, those are readers who are then getting emails when my new book comes out and then they're gonna check it out. I also really love Bookbub as a feature. It's not as effective as it used to be, but I still think it's a really great tool to give out like, you know, a cheap or free book for a first in series to like get good read through. But when it comes to like publisher marketing, like, like,
Amazon Montlake has by far been my best experience with a publisher like having them market your book, right? And Goodreads can be a really effective tool even though not everybody's on it, but because it's basically a What you would call like a like a hot lead because everybody on there is already a reader. They're already people who like books, right? Like so that so that Goodreads giveaways have been helpful and then also media ads are really a huge part of things. Amazon has been really great about getting my books on Instagram and Facebook ads and also the Kindle screens, is just amazing. Which isn't something that is easy to access when you're an indie author, but from a trad standpoint, having that sort of push of the ad right there has been really helpful. Like the strongest thing in my personal arsenal is just my newsletter because the readers that I had when I was writing for source books are now following me into my Montlake titles right and they will also follow me into my indie titles because they're all there on my newsletter and they can keep coming back to the stories and the things that I'm releasing again and again and I can reach them easily so so that's really been my biggest tool in building up an audience I would say because you can reach them time and time again.
J. G. Gates
Absolutely. And do you give something away? Like, do you have a free book or something that people can get when they sign up?
Kait Ballenger
I have a few different things depending on the series. So like I've done signups with free books before, like newsletter swaps with other authors, and I also do like bonus content stuff. So like for right now, the big draw is like I have deleted scenes from Original Sinner as well as like character art that readers can see if they sign up for my newsletter and like a little playlist. Like you can click to my Spotify playlist and see the songs I was listening to when I was writing the series and so like readers love little things like that and it's it's a especially as an author like it's a really effective way to keep them engaged but also like it's it's really not high cost right like it's cost-effective in that way
J. G. Gates
That's excellent. Once you have those readers on your email list, as you say, unless they unsubscribe or something, like they're with you and you have access to them on like social media where they can just pull the plug and say, you're not gonna be able to talk to these people anymore.
Kait Ballenger
Yeah, the algorithm. I mean, we're all really fighting it when it comes in terms to marketing and you don't have to fight the algorithm with your newsletter, right? You might have to fight a spam folder occasionally, but it's not as complicated as figuring out the exact formula of what TikTok wants you to put on at what time. Yes, a moving target for sure.
J. G. Gates
.
Yeah, which is constantly changing. What's the worst piece of publishing or writing advice you've ever received?
Kait Ballenger
I've never been asked that. I'm going to have to think. Well, one of them would probably be the don't edit as you go because I would never get anything done. So I would say that I would say the worst piece of publishing advice is something that goes against your intuition as an author, right? Like, like if you know that something is working for you and like it's been working for you and somebody says, don't do that. Don't listen to them. Right? Like, like trust, trust your intuition. But I would say, I would say the don't edit as you is one of them for me just because I, you know, I am very, like I like to edit as I go and it helps me ultimately get further in the manuscript than when I started because once I'm finished editing then the ideas are there for the next scene and I'm able to kind of move forward. And... So a lot of my negative writing advice has been around people who do fast draft style things, which works great for some writers, but is not my style. I'm not going to be a fast drafter.
J. G. Gates
Right, well and when you get to the end of your first draft though, essentially it's a second draft, so that's...
Kait Ballenger
Yeah, because by the time I am at the end of what is considered my first full draft, the varying parts of the book have been through so many edits that I send it off to my editor at that point and I don't have to worry about it because it's already polished, right? So for me, it all just kind of happens in one.
J. G. Gates
That's great, that's great. What's one piece of writing or publishing advice that you would give to somebody who's either starting out or maybe they are published and are just not quite where they want to be yet, want to continue to level up?
Kait Ballenger
I would say keep your writing joy at the center of things because burnout is high in this industry. The authors that I started publishing with over nearly 15 years ago at this point are not the same ones that are in the industry now because there's such a high turnover rate of people getting burnt out and overproducing or that sort of thing. And that's not a shame on fast writers because some people naturally write fast and good for them. Keep going, but like you kind of have to do what's working for you. Prioritize still enjoying and having fun with the writing even though you're trying to make a career of it. Because if you don't have that joy and you lose that, you're gonna lose the longevity that it takes to make a career, right? And then another one that I think is just a smaller bit of advice is that, and I heard someone else say this, so I'm paraphrasing here, it's that it was a best-selling author say if I knew the number of one-star reviews it would take to become a bestseller I would have wanted them to come a lot faster and and it's true when you when you start reaching like the upper echelons of like getting more readers you get a lot more hate on your books and
Every reader that is not for you is closer to finding the readers that are for you. So don't let those negative reviews get you down.
J. G. Gates
It's true. It's like bad reviews are almost in a way a symptom of good marketing, right? Because it's like you've cast a net so big that you captured even people who like your book wasn't really for them, you know.
Kait Ballenger
Yes! Yes, exactly. And a lot of the time, like, when I see one-star reviews now, like, they sort of make me chuckle because, like, you can tell that I'm, like, by the comments they leave that I'm like, you were just not the right market for this, right? Like...
J. G. Gates
You know, it's funny, I still don't read them because they hurt my feelings. I see bad reviews, I will not look at them. But the mantra I have for myself is my books are for the people who love them. And so if you didn't love it, it's not for you. Like, that's okay. Like, it's a no-brainer. It wasn't it wasn't for you. It was for somebody else. And that's fine. So if people want to learn, learn more, follow your career, read your books, where can they find you?
Kait Ballenger
So you can find me at www.kaitballenger.com and you can sign up for my newsletter there, which is my preferred area. But you can also find me on Instagram and TikTok where I post frequently.
Visit Kait and sign up for her newsletter at:
You can find her on TikTok @kaitballenger and Instagram @kait.ballenger