1 00:00:01,590 --> 00:00:03,790 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:04,170 --> 00:00:05,430 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:06,070 --> 00:00:10,440 In this episode, you will hear part one of my conversation with Rebecca Thomas, 4 00:00:11,059 --> 00:00:15,990 director of the Pathways ePortfolio program and adjunct assistant professor 5 00:00:16,210 --> 00:00:21,345 of the Electrical and Computer Engineering department at Bucknell University more 6 00:00:21,345 --> 00:00:25,084 links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 7 00:00:25,165 --> 00:00:26,904 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 8 00:00:27,505 --> 00:00:30,934 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 9 00:00:30,935 --> 00:00:32,525 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 10 00:00:34,985 --> 00:00:37,304 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations! 11 00:00:37,695 --> 00:00:39,075 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 12 00:00:39,545 --> 00:00:46,234 My guest today is Rebecca Thomas, Director of the Pathway ePortfolio Program and 13 00:00:46,254 --> 00:00:50,235 Adjunct Assistant Professor of the Electrical and Computer Engineering 14 00:00:50,235 --> 00:00:52,265 Department at Bucknell University. 15 00:00:52,775 --> 00:00:53,435 Hello, Rebecca. 16 00:00:53,535 --> 00:00:59,805 Uh, so nice to have you here on Digication Scholars Conversations. 17 00:01:00,584 --> 00:01:07,884 You are, um, amongst your colleague, uh, Joe Tranquillo, who was in our season 18 00:01:07,885 --> 00:01:14,315 two, episode 25, um, we had a wonderful, wonderful conversation then, and, um, 19 00:01:14,325 --> 00:01:15,905 I'm glad that you can join us now. 20 00:01:16,164 --> 00:01:20,005 And I know that actually there are a few other Bucknell colleagues of yours that 21 00:01:20,005 --> 00:01:23,354 we'll be talking to as well, cause you're all just doing really incredible work. 22 00:01:23,745 --> 00:01:24,394 Uh, welcome. 23 00:01:25,180 --> 00:01:25,560 Thank you. 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:33,410 So, um, Rebecca, you're, um, the director of the Pathways ePortfolio Program. 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,100 Do you want to just right away talk about like what that means? 26 00:01:37,110 --> 00:01:37,930 What's Pathways? 27 00:01:38,750 --> 00:01:44,229 For those who might be listening, may have some idea, but not 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,300 really a hundred percent sure what you, what, what that means? 29 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:48,830 Yeah. 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:55,250 So, um, Pathways is Bucknell's ePortfolio, or University wide ePortfolio initiative. 31 00:01:55,250 --> 00:01:55,269 Okay. 32 00:01:55,670 --> 00:01:58,620 Um, it's a fairly new program at Bucknell. 33 00:01:58,620 --> 00:02:04,090 We've just, it rolled out, um, two years ago. 34 00:02:04,090 --> 00:02:06,690 So we have two years of the program. 35 00:02:07,850 --> 00:02:16,339 Um, yeah, and so it has a lot of goals for students to kind of take 36 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:19,009 control of their own learning, right? 37 00:02:19,009 --> 00:02:22,098 To integrate all their great experiences that they have when they 38 00:02:22,098 --> 00:02:26,334 come to a school like Bucknell, you know, and think holistically about 39 00:02:26,815 --> 00:02:28,525 They're learning and who they are. 40 00:02:29,165 --> 00:02:33,955 Um, and we focus that mostly in the, in the development of the ePortfolio. 41 00:02:36,365 --> 00:02:42,665 Um, when you say think holistic about, you know, themselves, um, I know that, 42 00:02:43,135 --> 00:02:46,534 I mean, of course, talk, having talked to Joe and for people who haven't, 43 00:02:46,864 --> 00:02:51,685 haven't, um, heard that I highly recommend you listen to Joe's, um, conversation 44 00:02:51,685 --> 00:02:54,415 as well, because he's a master of. 45 00:02:55,245 --> 00:03:00,945 Uh, Metacognition and Reflections, and he comes from this really 46 00:03:00,945 --> 00:03:02,315 interesting diverse background. 47 00:03:02,795 --> 00:03:09,045 Um, and one of the things that I often want to talk to people about is a 48 00:03:09,054 --> 00:03:10,764 lot of people say holistic learning. 49 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:14,040 Develop as a whole, you know, human and all of this stuff. 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:14,310 Right. 51 00:03:14,860 --> 00:03:19,660 So in your, in your vision of this as a director of this and you, your 52 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:24,480 vision, what does that really mean when a student, you know, like practically 53 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,680 if I'm a, if I'm a parent sending a student to Bucknell, now you are 54 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,190 telling your, your student, your, your child is gonna be holistically 55 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:34,310 learning about themselves, right? 56 00:03:34,310 --> 00:03:35,720 And being developed in that way. 57 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,000 What does that really mean in practical terms? 58 00:03:40,010 --> 00:03:40,340 Right. 59 00:03:40,370 --> 00:03:41,870 So, I mean, I mentioned. 60 00:03:42,144 --> 00:03:44,704 Like Bucknell students are, are very involved. 61 00:03:44,735 --> 00:03:47,595 They do a lot of things around campus, right? 62 00:03:47,625 --> 00:03:49,924 Going to classes is just one of them. 63 00:03:50,484 --> 00:03:56,355 Um, so, so part of the holistic experience, right, is that 64 00:03:56,375 --> 00:04:00,174 they're involved in lots of different organizations. 65 00:04:01,135 --> 00:04:05,874 Uh, it's a very residential campus, so most of our students. 66 00:04:06,524 --> 00:04:14,154 live together and, um, uh, work together outside of class. 67 00:04:14,165 --> 00:04:17,344 So, they have all these experiences to bring in. 68 00:04:17,635 --> 00:04:26,635 Um, also, personally, I come from the STEM background where a lot of times, 69 00:04:27,264 --> 00:04:35,169 um, right, the technical part is really focused on and, right, there's this Even 70 00:04:35,169 --> 00:04:41,560 though we know, like, technology has, has human aspects, right, we, we tend to 71 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:47,229 think we can separate those and ignore the human part and really we can't. 72 00:04:47,269 --> 00:04:53,299 So, you know, coming from STEM, I think not ignoring the human part, also not 73 00:04:53,299 --> 00:05:02,380 ignoring, like, the humanities is really important because, um, right, we're, 74 00:05:03,870 --> 00:05:08,734 you know, we're all trying to solve these Bigger, more complex, relevant 75 00:05:08,744 --> 00:05:14,995 to society problems, and we need a bigger lens, a bigger view to do that. 76 00:05:15,735 --> 00:05:21,004 So, so we need to think about lots of aspects of the problem, not only the 77 00:05:21,005 --> 00:05:28,934 technical, but the human side and how it overlaps with other aspects, the social, 78 00:05:29,034 --> 00:05:34,245 the political, the economic, to come up with real plausible solutions to. 79 00:05:35,165 --> 00:05:40,655 These problems that we're facing.I think that's, that's really, that's really 80 00:05:40,655 --> 00:05:47,355 awesome and really great to see, you know, like, I think that it's been, it's no 81 00:05:47,355 --> 00:05:53,204 secret to many people that if you're going into the STEM fields, you yourself are 82 00:05:53,565 --> 00:05:58,905 in the engineering and, and computer, um, electrical and in computer, um, you know, 83 00:05:58,915 --> 00:06:06,850 engineering department, um, a lot of folks have this, this, um, View that in a STEM 84 00:06:06,850 --> 00:06:10,920 field, you do everything is very black and white, is very right or wrong, you have 85 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,520 the answer, you don't have the answer. 86 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:15,420 I wish it was like that, it would be a lot easier. 87 00:06:16,469 --> 00:06:17,989 So that's, that's wrong, right? 88 00:06:17,989 --> 00:06:19,759 That's the wrong way to look at it. 89 00:06:20,169 --> 00:06:25,500 So I think that's actually a really, um, interesting. 90 00:06:26,190 --> 00:06:28,919 That's a really interesting thing that you're saying because 91 00:06:29,430 --> 00:06:30,969 I've had so many colleagues. 92 00:06:32,715 --> 00:06:36,185 Of course, I know a lot of my work is involved around portfolio. 93 00:06:36,605 --> 00:06:42,844 Many of the schools that we have worked with, um, I've known these 94 00:06:43,235 --> 00:06:51,525 folks for a long time, and they, many of them have this, um, idea that. 95 00:06:52,835 --> 00:06:57,885 It's much easier to do ePortfolio because it's touchy feely. 96 00:06:57,895 --> 00:07:01,805 It's, you know, talking about reflection and, and that you can 97 00:07:01,805 --> 00:07:09,075 do it easier in the arts, in the humanities, um, but not in STEM. 98 00:07:09,505 --> 00:07:12,934 They think that STEM, you know, Oh, of course, we're not going 99 00:07:12,934 --> 00:07:14,885 to be doing STEM programs. 100 00:07:14,895 --> 00:07:15,405 That's harder. 101 00:07:15,414 --> 00:07:16,804 That's not the low hanging fruit. 102 00:07:17,395 --> 00:07:18,244 What do you say to that? 103 00:07:18,245 --> 00:07:20,165 Because I don't think that that's justified. 104 00:07:20,405 --> 00:07:20,815 Do you? 105 00:07:21,744 --> 00:07:22,254 No. 106 00:07:22,295 --> 00:07:28,844 I mean, and I think, you know, naturally, like some of the historical 107 00:07:28,844 --> 00:07:34,205 ways that ePortfolios have been used and kind of where they started was. 108 00:07:34,564 --> 00:07:37,054 more for the professional programs. 109 00:07:37,665 --> 00:07:38,855 Um, right. 110 00:07:38,855 --> 00:07:45,934 So, like, nursing and education are, um, big fields for you portfolios, right? 111 00:07:45,934 --> 00:07:50,594 And engineering in some sense of a, of what we do is a very 112 00:07:50,725 --> 00:07:55,595 professional, um, professional degree, professional path, right? 113 00:07:55,595 --> 00:08:03,765 We are educating the students that we that we have to, to be engineers, right? 114 00:08:03,775 --> 00:08:08,655 That's, there's a wide variety of engineers you can be, and we're 115 00:08:08,655 --> 00:08:12,395 actually trying to push on and expand that with, with what I'm 116 00:08:12,395 --> 00:08:16,325 doing in my department and what we believe ePortfolios can do for STEM. 117 00:08:16,745 --> 00:08:18,295 majors, right? 118 00:08:18,335 --> 00:08:21,315 But I think you have that traditional view. 119 00:08:21,365 --> 00:08:25,855 So it's interesting at Bucknell, it's, you know, engineers are actually leading 120 00:08:25,855 --> 00:08:28,305 the way with our ePortfolio initiative. 121 00:08:28,894 --> 00:08:33,845 Um, particularly my department in electrical and computer 122 00:08:33,845 --> 00:08:37,114 engineering has already tried it in, I think, six different courses. 123 00:08:37,575 --> 00:08:43,234 Uh, we're looking to Create a new course that we want students to actually 124 00:08:43,234 --> 00:08:45,315 enroll in every single semester. 125 00:08:45,355 --> 00:08:48,185 It'll be a small portion, right? 126 00:08:48,185 --> 00:08:51,295 So it adds up to a whole course over their eight semesters. 127 00:08:52,535 --> 00:08:57,544 But we want students to do this so that they can think about and, and 128 00:08:57,544 --> 00:09:03,604 narrate and document their experience the whole way through their curriculum 129 00:09:04,765 --> 00:09:10,710 and, you know, bring in The other parts of, you know, it won't be, it 130 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:12,170 won't be a very technical course. 131 00:09:12,190 --> 00:09:15,820 So, so the, the things they're pulling, the experiences they're 132 00:09:15,850 --> 00:09:19,449 thinking about in their ePortfolio should come, you know, from a wide 133 00:09:19,450 --> 00:09:25,269 range of, of what they're doing as, as different parts of their education. 134 00:09:25,599 --> 00:09:26,029 Yeah. 135 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:32,440 I, I really think that it, it's potentially more important than 136 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,600 what people are even thinking about, because I think that. 137 00:09:37,935 --> 00:09:44,045 Engineers today, and I, I know in the field of, for example, in computer 138 00:09:44,064 --> 00:09:48,555 engineering, and especially in the sort of subfield of the artificial intelligence, 139 00:09:49,675 --> 00:10:00,765 um, this very idea of understanding societal issues, understanding ethics, 140 00:10:00,944 --> 00:10:09,625 understanding values, and how to, how to think empathetically, right? 141 00:10:09,655 --> 00:10:17,755 How to, how to, um, Implement, Respect in society, right? 142 00:10:18,495 --> 00:10:26,385 These are kind of things that an engineer could have tremendous power. 143 00:10:26,725 --> 00:10:30,965 They can wield, they can, the, the things that they, the decisions that 144 00:10:30,965 --> 00:10:38,325 they make, the approach that they take into solving a problem could have lots 145 00:10:38,325 --> 00:10:44,685 of unintended consequences down the road, if they are not careful and carefully. 146 00:10:45,140 --> 00:10:48,180 Thinking through these implications, don't you? 147 00:10:50,730 --> 00:10:58,930 Yeah, um, I think that's definitely, uh, you know, engineers can have a lot of 148 00:10:58,999 --> 00:11:03,270 impact, they often have a lot of power. 149 00:11:03,715 --> 00:11:04,805 Um, right. 150 00:11:04,805 --> 00:11:12,135 But some engineers and some engineering students don't want to think about those 151 00:11:12,185 --> 00:11:19,225 larger aspects they want to, or, well, and sometimes that's the training is like you, 152 00:11:19,254 --> 00:11:21,175 you do what you're told and you don't. 153 00:11:21,445 --> 00:11:21,824 Mm hmm. 154 00:11:21,935 --> 00:11:22,425 Right. 155 00:11:22,754 --> 00:11:23,034 Right. 156 00:11:23,054 --> 00:11:24,125 So there's that. 157 00:11:24,204 --> 00:11:24,615 Yeah. 158 00:11:24,765 --> 00:11:25,055 Right. 159 00:11:25,084 --> 00:11:27,734 So there's that, you know, that, that wanting things to 160 00:11:27,734 --> 00:11:28,974 be black and white, right. 161 00:11:29,135 --> 00:11:33,535 You're, your client tells you to do this, if your consultant or your boss tells you 162 00:11:33,535 --> 00:11:35,844 to do this and, and you deliver, right. 163 00:11:35,844 --> 00:11:36,734 You don't ask. 164 00:11:36,734 --> 00:11:36,794 Right. 165 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,390 Why, you know, you don't think about the broader implications sometimes. 166 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:43,070 Right. 167 00:11:44,530 --> 00:11:52,080 And I think that in, in many ways, um, you know, I, I, I hear this a lot, by the way, 168 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,660 I used to be, um, the school that I used to teach at and there's an art and design 169 00:11:57,669 --> 00:11:59,350 school at Rhode Island School of Design. 170 00:11:59,470 --> 00:12:01,970 And, and I used to hear this a little bit. 171 00:12:01,980 --> 00:12:03,170 This is quite interesting. 172 00:12:03,180 --> 00:12:08,755 I think, um, like we have a film department and a lot of the People 173 00:12:08,755 --> 00:12:14,204 that make films from that department would make films that they don't look 174 00:12:14,204 --> 00:12:20,184 like, um, you know, what you see in the movies because they are very abstract. 175 00:12:20,185 --> 00:12:23,504 Sometimes they're like, what is this like crazy idea? 176 00:12:23,974 --> 00:12:26,184 You know, technically they're not perfect. 177 00:12:26,724 --> 00:12:27,505 You know what I mean? 178 00:12:28,085 --> 00:12:30,504 Um, and. 179 00:12:31,095 --> 00:12:36,235 And I remember talking to someone and going, so do they, do they, they come out 180 00:12:36,245 --> 00:12:40,744 of the school having the skills to go in and make films and they go, and sometimes 181 00:12:40,744 --> 00:12:44,364 you go, well, sometimes, yeah, sometimes now they really need to still then learn 182 00:12:44,364 --> 00:12:46,185 an industry and like learn the ropes. 183 00:12:47,014 --> 00:12:50,364 But what you will find is that there are also some film schools 184 00:12:50,365 --> 00:12:51,689 that are highly technical. 185 00:12:51,850 --> 00:12:55,570 You know, by the time they graduate, they, they just know how to shoot a 186 00:12:55,570 --> 00:13:01,730 film, um, technically, but they haven't explored in how to tell the story. 187 00:13:01,730 --> 00:13:06,559 They haven't explored on some of the more abstract, higher level sort of thinking. 188 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:07,310 So. 189 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,129 If you then fast forward 10 years, the people that came out having all 190 00:13:13,129 --> 00:13:16,990 of the technical skills are still doing the same job that requires 191 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,150 all of the technical skills. 192 00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:22,110 Actually, our students are the ones that, in some ways, because they 193 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,849 don't have those technical skills. 194 00:13:24,270 --> 00:13:27,900 They kind of have to sort of, you know, go in a path of, we're 195 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:29,110 just going to make the movie. 196 00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:31,810 We're going to have to hire people to have the technical skills. 197 00:13:32,180 --> 00:13:35,620 And they ended up leading, they ended up becoming the directors of the 198 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:37,949 movies and the creators of the shows. 199 00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:40,220 Um, isn't that kind of interesting? 200 00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:41,140 Yeah. 201 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:43,230 Yeah. 202 00:13:43,249 --> 00:13:46,430 And I, I think in engineering, like we, we definitely can't 203 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,200 ignore those technical skills. 204 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,770 We definitely need to equip our students to have those, but right. 205 00:13:53,770 --> 00:13:54,810 We can teach those. 206 00:13:55,845 --> 00:14:01,855 And so let's think about the context, right, and, and think 207 00:14:01,855 --> 00:14:09,635 about integrating them and transferring them more, um, right. 208 00:14:09,715 --> 00:14:14,064 Sometimes in engineering we get so focused on everything has to be technical and 209 00:14:14,064 --> 00:14:19,775 they need to go so deep in the technical, yet, right, the field advances so quickly 210 00:14:19,815 --> 00:14:25,185 and, and the variety of things that students go out to do is, is so wide that 211 00:14:25,185 --> 00:14:29,464 they're going to have to learn some of that technical, Um, Aspects on the job. 212 00:14:29,474 --> 00:14:31,444 So, right. 213 00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:33,444 So a lot of what we're doing. 214 00:14:33,834 --> 00:14:39,445 Right, is, is giving them the skills to, to be able to learn those aspects. 215 00:14:39,905 --> 00:14:46,245 Um, yeah, but we do see kind of the same thing with, you know, engineers 216 00:14:46,245 --> 00:14:50,195 that have these broader skills, right, they're going to be the ones 217 00:14:50,265 --> 00:14:52,365 that move up and they're going to be. 218 00:14:52,945 --> 00:14:59,385 The ones who are, um, kind of supervisors or project managers, they're not going 219 00:14:59,385 --> 00:15:03,875 to stay in those technical jobs, usually. 220 00:15:04,895 --> 00:15:10,924 And do you see in your experience difference between this? 221 00:15:11,555 --> 00:15:15,905 Current generation of students that are from your program because they are 222 00:15:15,905 --> 00:15:21,064 being exposed to these, you know, like the humanities and the purposes of, 223 00:15:21,095 --> 00:15:24,125 you know, in, in the society and so on. 224 00:15:24,404 --> 00:15:29,645 Do you see a difference between them and I don't know, students who haven't been 225 00:15:29,645 --> 00:15:34,185 exposed to that, including perhaps I'm, I'm perhaps making assumptions here, but. 226 00:15:35,105 --> 00:15:39,105 You know, maybe your own personal experience, or, you know, students 227 00:15:39,105 --> 00:15:43,355 that you've seen in your own education experiences, maybe classmates, 228 00:15:43,685 --> 00:15:47,585 when you were a student who may not have been exposed to those things. 229 00:15:47,645 --> 00:15:49,945 Do you see a difference between them? 230 00:15:51,775 --> 00:15:57,394 Um, yeah, I think mostly in kind of what we've talked about in their, 231 00:15:57,514 --> 00:15:59,434 in their kind of longer term path. 232 00:16:00,775 --> 00:16:04,265 Um, and I would like to see it kind of earlier on, right. 233 00:16:04,265 --> 00:16:10,615 But a lot of people still graduate wanting to go to those big programs, wanting to 234 00:16:10,625 --> 00:16:17,364 be at the Google and the Microsoft and, um, yeah, and not, not thinking, I'd love 235 00:16:17,364 --> 00:16:21,235 to see students think even more broadly about, all right, I have an engineering 236 00:16:21,235 --> 00:16:25,965 degree, what, what good can I do with it or what, you know, what can I do with 237 00:16:25,965 --> 00:16:27,925 it too that really interests me and. 238 00:16:28,350 --> 00:16:29,850 It's something that I care about. 239 00:16:31,669 --> 00:16:31,909 Right. 240 00:16:31,909 --> 00:16:37,849 It could be anything from, you know, creating justice in society to solving 241 00:16:38,510 --> 00:16:45,159 impossible problems such as, you know, clean water or, or, um, or, or, or, 242 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:51,700 or curing, you know, a deadly disease, um, or figuring out how to apply 243 00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:55,380 those skills that you have to mental health and, and things like that. 244 00:16:55,380 --> 00:16:55,700 Right. 245 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,949 You know, so in other words, almost like opening up the. 246 00:16:59,449 --> 00:17:00,490 The possibility. 247 00:17:00,530 --> 00:17:06,490 So it's not, yes, if you get an, if you're an engineer, if you're qualified, you 248 00:17:06,490 --> 00:17:14,429 know, those jobs at Google and Microsoft sounds pretty prestigious, cushy, you 249 00:17:14,429 --> 00:17:16,900 know, like that, that would be it. 250 00:17:16,909 --> 00:17:19,449 Like that, that's when my parents, you know, would be happy. 251 00:17:19,609 --> 00:17:21,729 I think that that's what my parents would have wanted me to do. 252 00:17:22,180 --> 00:17:28,070 When I was, when I was coming up, I didn't do it. 253 00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:32,369 It was a disappointment to them in that regard. 254 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:37,010 Um, what was your, what was your story like? 255 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,560 Um, I mean, you also studied, you know, engineering and how 256 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,870 did you end up at Bucknell? 257 00:17:44,389 --> 00:17:44,960 Yeah. 258 00:17:44,969 --> 00:17:51,109 So, you know, I think early I went in being an engineer who wanted 259 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:53,760 to make the world a better place. 260 00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:54,189 Right. 261 00:17:54,189 --> 00:17:56,030 Make, make things better for people. 262 00:17:56,599 --> 00:18:03,409 And I spent four years in undergrad and kind of graduated and didn't 263 00:18:03,419 --> 00:18:05,010 know how to make that happen. 264 00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:06,230 I had no idea. 265 00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:08,139 Where to go from there. 266 00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:12,190 So let me pause for a minute there. 267 00:18:12,330 --> 00:18:14,860 Okay, because I think this is really interesting. 268 00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:15,730 It really is. 269 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,680 So you got a four year undergraduate degree at that point. 270 00:18:20,609 --> 00:18:25,989 Is it right to say that you probably at least feel like you've gained some skills? 271 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:27,649 You got the technical skills? 272 00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:31,490 So you knew, you knew how to solve a problem. 273 00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:37,180 If someone said, here's a problem, go solve it in your, you know, in your area 274 00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:41,300 of study, but you still feel like that. 275 00:18:41,390 --> 00:18:44,480 I don't know how to get a job that would pay the bills. 276 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:50,389 I didn't know how to do something that would really be fulfilling. 277 00:18:51,715 --> 00:18:57,155 And that's, by the way, a huge part of this generation. 278 00:18:57,895 --> 00:19:01,555 I think that, I think you're a bit younger than me, but when I was growing 279 00:19:01,555 --> 00:19:08,685 up, you know, like fulfillment was a, a very luxurious thing to have, like, 280 00:19:08,695 --> 00:19:13,305 you don't get to have that and pay the bills at the same time, you know, 281 00:19:13,325 --> 00:19:15,765 you just kind of, you know, get a job. 282 00:19:16,105 --> 00:19:20,785 And you'll get fulfilled in other ways, you know, once you make money, 283 00:19:20,815 --> 00:19:22,355 you know, you, you'll get fulfilled. 284 00:19:22,844 --> 00:19:24,925 Um, but it's not true. 285 00:19:25,995 --> 00:19:26,784 It's not true. 286 00:19:26,844 --> 00:19:34,024 In fact, um, many people have made lots of money and I know a lot of them in Silicon 287 00:19:34,024 --> 00:19:37,604 Valley that they actually, in fact, made disproportionate amount of money, money, 288 00:19:37,834 --> 00:19:44,024 amount of money that they didn't know what to do with and still feel an incredible 289 00:19:44,054 --> 00:19:46,584 sense of emptiness in the sense of. 290 00:19:47,025 --> 00:19:48,395 Depression, some of them. 291 00:19:48,905 --> 00:19:53,645 In fact, they felt like that, now that I've reached the end, I'm supposed 292 00:19:53,645 --> 00:20:00,815 to see the rainbow and the rainbow is nowhere to be found, you know, but yeah, 293 00:20:00,915 --> 00:20:05,684 I decided though, since I didn't know professionally how to, how to change 294 00:20:06,194 --> 00:20:12,155 things that I would educate future engineers that hopefully could then have 295 00:20:12,155 --> 00:20:15,025 more opportunities to, to change things. 296 00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:20,200 Right, and being an educator is a nice place to, like, continually be able to. 297 00:20:20,605 --> 00:20:24,935 Do that to influence the, you know, the next up and coming 298 00:20:24,935 --> 00:20:27,065 engineers over and over again. 299 00:20:27,675 --> 00:20:31,025 Yeah, I think that's, it's, it's, it's amazing. 300 00:20:31,025 --> 00:20:36,064 Cause I think that this is exactly the kind of, um, both the modeling, but 301 00:20:36,075 --> 00:20:39,104 the thought process that allows you to. 302 00:20:39,545 --> 00:20:44,475 Direct a program that has that inherently, you know, built into, into, into the 303 00:20:44,505 --> 00:20:46,265 concepts of how you structure things. 304 00:20:46,595 --> 00:20:51,084 Even just one that you talked about, which is this idea of a cross that's 305 00:20:51,084 --> 00:20:53,335 going to span across eight semesters. 306 00:20:53,435 --> 00:20:57,084 They're going to do a little work every semester, but it's always going 307 00:20:57,084 --> 00:21:03,400 to remind them, hey, where's your True North, whereas you are, where, 308 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:08,360 what is going to keep driving you as you gain more and more skills, right? 309 00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:11,539 Now, you know how to create something in a database. 310 00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:13,199 Now, you're creating some code. 311 00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:15,469 Now, you can do this logic that you couldn't do before. 312 00:21:15,469 --> 00:21:20,789 Now, you're doing, you know, artificial intelligence, machine learning, etc. 313 00:21:21,719 --> 00:21:25,830 But where's your true North and are you still pointing in that direction? 314 00:21:26,304 --> 00:21:27,225 I think that's amazing. 315 00:21:28,034 --> 00:21:28,485 Yeah. 316 00:21:29,145 --> 00:21:31,584 But, I mean, and there are a lot of students too, like 317 00:21:31,584 --> 00:21:32,965 first generation students. 318 00:21:32,965 --> 00:21:34,885 I was a first gen, right? 319 00:21:34,885 --> 00:21:40,054 So I came in not, not knowing where my north was, not knowing where to go. 320 00:21:40,215 --> 00:21:40,584 Right. 321 00:21:40,774 --> 00:21:46,114 I think it is a balance though of, of guiding the students 322 00:21:46,114 --> 00:21:48,235 who, who need help finding it. 323 00:21:48,374 --> 00:21:51,375 But, but yeah, also kind of continually doing that because you 324 00:21:51,375 --> 00:21:52,935 change a lot in your four years. 325 00:21:52,944 --> 00:21:52,965 Yeah. 326 00:21:54,024 --> 00:21:55,075 are in university. 327 00:21:55,075 --> 00:22:01,124 So, thinking about what it is that you want to do, how, how has that changed? 328 00:22:01,134 --> 00:22:02,004 Is it changing? 329 00:22:02,895 --> 00:22:04,084 Are you still focused on? 330 00:22:05,485 --> 00:22:08,645 I guess I was still focused on my goal to make the world better. 331 00:22:09,425 --> 00:22:14,045 Yeah, but in ways that you didn't think was even a possible 332 00:22:14,045 --> 00:22:15,354 path when you first started. 333 00:22:15,675 --> 00:22:20,874 And I will share that I'm also a first gen college attendee in my family. 334 00:22:20,905 --> 00:22:25,675 And, um, I would say that, um, even forget, I don't know 335 00:22:25,675 --> 00:22:27,725 where the true, true North is. 336 00:22:27,725 --> 00:22:30,185 I didn't even know you were supposed to have a North. 337 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:34,030 Do you know what I mean? 338 00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:40,499 It's, it's maybe the, the only North for, for me, conceptually 339 00:22:40,509 --> 00:22:41,969 would have just been to survive. 340 00:22:41,989 --> 00:22:46,459 You know, just be like, be, be able to pay the bills. 341 00:22:47,659 --> 00:22:48,579 That was, that was about it. 342 00:22:48,689 --> 00:22:50,100 Get a degree, get a job. 343 00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:50,580 Yeah. 344 00:22:50,659 --> 00:22:51,939 Just a little bit of. 345 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:52,839 Yep. 346 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,830 Degree, job, and then you can figure it out. 347 00:22:55,409 --> 00:22:55,949 Yeah. 348 00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:58,489 I think that's too late. 349 00:22:58,580 --> 00:23:00,149 I think that it feels too late. 350 00:23:00,159 --> 00:23:00,540 Don't you? 351 00:23:02,399 --> 00:23:02,719 Yeah. 352 00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:05,370 Well, at least not very efficient, right? 353 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:11,630 You know, you're missing out on a lot of what education can provide 354 00:23:11,630 --> 00:23:13,639 if you're very focused on that. 355 00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:22,340 And I think that this is actually a really good, um, place for me to talk 356 00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:24,610 about sort of just education in general. 357 00:23:24,899 --> 00:23:30,220 Because, um, I have spoken with a lot of folks. 358 00:23:30,895 --> 00:23:35,005 In this very, you know, Digication Scholars Conversations, right? 359 00:23:35,005 --> 00:23:36,455 And they're from different fields and whatnot. 360 00:23:37,385 --> 00:23:44,625 And they would oftentimes have to defend, you know, folks that are in liberal arts, 361 00:23:44,634 --> 00:23:49,605 folks that are in the arts, you know, especially, they have to defend that, 362 00:23:49,625 --> 00:23:54,725 you know, this is a viable path because you're learning to be a better human. 363 00:23:56,295 --> 00:24:03,205 Um, Oftentimes, comparing to if you're an engineer, because like 364 00:24:03,205 --> 00:24:08,345 you said, there is this sort of pre established path that is pretty cushy. 365 00:24:08,804 --> 00:24:12,655 It's, well, I don't, it's never easy by the way, but it seems easier. 366 00:24:12,695 --> 00:24:14,644 It seems more laid out for you, right? 367 00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:15,695 The path is there. 368 00:24:15,695 --> 00:24:20,465 You can follow the steps and if you're, if you're pretty decent, you can do it. 369 00:24:20,495 --> 00:24:25,424 You can do it just like someone else had done and just kind of, that's it, right? 370 00:24:25,645 --> 00:24:27,585 And then you could be in this. 371 00:24:28,595 --> 00:24:34,004 You know, position of a multiple six figure job with, you know, lunch and 372 00:24:34,004 --> 00:24:38,565 dinner covered and, and dry cleaning also done, you know, for you, et cetera. 373 00:24:38,565 --> 00:24:40,865 It's kind of like, it sounds amazing, you know. 374 00:24:41,505 --> 00:24:41,975 Um. 375 00:24:42,495 --> 00:24:50,385 And, uh, but, but I think that, um, like what you were saying to find 376 00:24:50,385 --> 00:24:52,475 a fulfillment, that may not be it. 377 00:24:53,185 --> 00:24:58,895 And that actually, regardless of which field you're going into, that 378 00:24:58,895 --> 00:25:03,754 fulfillment, you still need to work at it and search for it and then, and 379 00:25:03,754 --> 00:25:06,235 then exercise somehow to get there. 380 00:25:08,110 --> 00:25:08,440 Yeah. 381 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:14,730 And that's not different for an engineer versus, um, you know, a dance major. 382 00:25:15,170 --> 00:25:15,650 Don't you think? 383 00:25:17,770 --> 00:25:18,160 Yeah. 384 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:22,559 And I think it's probably easier as an engineer to, to not 385 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:24,320 realize that part's important. 386 00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:25,310 Right. 387 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,240 Because the other path is so, it's, it's there. 388 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,950 It's, it's like, in fact, that's the, uh, dare I say, you know, more the norm, 389 00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:36,850 societal norm, if, if anything, you know. 390 00:25:37,340 --> 00:25:45,680 Um, and cause it's, it's, uh, It's both elusive, but you know, cause it's 391 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,170 there, you can sort of just catch it, but it's also very seductive because 392 00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:53,740 it's like, I want that, you know? 393 00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:58,129 Like if you are a student, you'll be like, that, that sounds pretty good. 394 00:25:58,650 --> 00:26:02,539 You know, having a lot of money, having a lot of resources. 395 00:26:03,209 --> 00:26:07,580 Um, people are taking vacations all the time, you know, what's 396 00:26:07,580 --> 00:26:09,540 not like kind of situation, right? 397 00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:10,770 Yeah. 398 00:26:11,705 --> 00:26:16,045 And having, you know, having the stability, which I think is a, 399 00:26:16,115 --> 00:26:17,715 is a big benefit of engineering. 400 00:26:17,725 --> 00:26:23,095 It does give you the stability to do things, to do the other things you want 401 00:26:23,165 --> 00:26:28,935 with the money that you have and hopefully the time that you have, you know, when 402 00:26:28,935 --> 00:26:34,964 you're, when you're not doing that, but when you're not working, but, um. 403 00:26:35,915 --> 00:26:42,685 But yeah, I still think if you're, I still think you can, you can miss out on a lot. 404 00:26:43,945 --> 00:26:48,735 And I think one other things that, one other thing that, um, a lot of people 405 00:26:49,384 --> 00:26:56,904 have, um, probably the, the, sort of the wrong view of the STEM field and 406 00:26:56,904 --> 00:27:02,584 engineers especially, you know, do, and, and perhaps even engineers themselves, 407 00:27:03,274 --> 00:27:08,295 is that, You know, many people think of engineers are the experts at problem 408 00:27:08,365 --> 00:27:11,225 solvers, you know, you have a problem. 409 00:27:11,245 --> 00:27:12,925 We'll engineer our way out of it. 410 00:27:13,875 --> 00:27:15,415 We'll engineer a solution. 411 00:27:16,224 --> 00:27:20,894 But I think that sort of true to how you were talking about, 412 00:27:20,964 --> 00:27:22,775 you know, if they're exposed to. 413 00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:28,010 You know, societal issues, if they're exposed to what's the most important 414 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,940 things in the world today, um, be it climate change or, you know, 415 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:41,540 superintelligence, you know, AI, you know, and possible future pandemics that 416 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:44,009 is even more deadly than COVID, right? 417 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,960 All of these areas, actually, perhaps less. 418 00:27:49,810 --> 00:27:55,069 So then, uh, being a great problem solver, you have to be a great 419 00:27:56,260 --> 00:27:58,470 sort of identifier of problems. 420 00:27:59,540 --> 00:28:06,889 And that's, uh, hugely under, sort of represented part of engineering, I feel. 421 00:28:07,450 --> 00:28:12,060 Um, even, like I said, even to engineers themselves, because many students are 422 00:28:12,129 --> 00:28:16,240 like, I've been trained for 12 years before coming to Bucknell, you know, in 423 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,080 high school and whatnot to solve problems. 424 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,000 I'm really good at it. 425 00:28:20,575 --> 00:28:20,705 Right. 426 00:28:20,735 --> 00:28:23,395 If they come to a school like Bucknell, they're probably pretty good at 427 00:28:23,395 --> 00:28:25,024 whatever they were doing already. 428 00:28:25,145 --> 00:28:25,465 Right. 429 00:28:25,895 --> 00:28:26,054 Yeah. 430 00:28:26,084 --> 00:28:28,554 And so I'm really good at doing that. 431 00:28:28,554 --> 00:28:30,784 I'm just great at solving problems. 432 00:28:32,764 --> 00:28:36,084 But the engineer's field, to me, is very incomplete. 433 00:28:36,084 --> 00:28:39,764 And that's why you don't get that fulfillment if you're also not able to, 434 00:28:40,455 --> 00:28:42,704 to be the one who instigate the problems. 435 00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:47,850 Yeah, and that's a big part of what we do in our design thread 436 00:28:47,850 --> 00:28:53,530 and, and our department, um, especially with senior design, right? 437 00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:57,990 And students get a senior design problem, they, they just want to start 438 00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:59,840 making the solution right away, right? 439 00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:00,760 They've got an idea. 440 00:29:01,219 --> 00:29:03,240 Maybe within five minutes how they're going to solve it and 441 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,399 they want to start building it. 442 00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:10,459 Um, but we make them take almost our senior design is a year long course. 443 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,810 They take it both semesters. 444 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,509 So we make them spend almost the entire first semester actually 445 00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:22,070 going out and figuring out more about what the problem is, right? 446 00:29:22,239 --> 00:29:29,159 We, they have to interview people and talk to people and really. 447 00:29:30,399 --> 00:29:35,150 Define the problem and, and figure out what's all involved before 448 00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:40,380 they're allowed to propose a solution and start working on it. 449 00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:41,120 Yeah. 450 00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:47,269 Um, seems like, uh, you know, what's interesting is that 451 00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:48,400 there's something about. 452 00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:54,390 And I don't know whether I'm, you know, being overly generalizing here, but, 453 00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:59,540 um, I think there's almost something about sort of a, uh, almost a lot of 454 00:30:00,060 --> 00:30:03,420 typical gender, um, differences as well. 455 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,889 A lot of men loves to go into, you know, if they hear a problem, they 456 00:30:09,889 --> 00:30:12,370 want to just go and do the solution. 457 00:30:12,715 --> 00:30:12,985 Right? 458 00:30:13,485 --> 00:30:13,825 Yeah. 459 00:30:15,715 --> 00:30:18,515 You may not be looking for a solution yet. 460 00:30:20,515 --> 00:30:23,175 The one thing we covered in, like, counseling before we got 461 00:30:23,175 --> 00:30:27,595 married is men typically want to, like, solve your problem. 462 00:30:28,245 --> 00:30:28,965 Husbands do. 463 00:30:28,995 --> 00:30:32,935 The wives, like, typically want to be heard and talk about the problem. 464 00:30:33,825 --> 00:30:34,205 Right. 465 00:30:34,615 --> 00:30:40,450 We have to I mean, it's, uh, engineering, especially in a lot of the STEM field is 466 00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:48,200 heavily still today dominated by sort of, uh, you know, by male participants, but, 467 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,530 but to me, it's not just the participants. 468 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:58,890 It's also the ideas, it's the approach that are very masculine, um, in a, 469 00:30:59,780 --> 00:31:03,680 in a, in a, in a, in a bad way, in a, in a way that doesn't balance 470 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,180 like what you just said, which is. 471 00:31:05,605 --> 00:31:10,875 Hey, look, we got to spend almost, if not the same amount of time on asking 472 00:31:10,875 --> 00:31:14,625 the questions before you just go into the solution, you know, part of this. 473 00:31:16,535 --> 00:31:16,935 Yeah. 474 00:31:17,605 --> 00:31:17,975 Yeah. 475 00:31:18,054 --> 00:31:24,454 And I think, you know, one of the big keys to, to addressing these 476 00:31:24,455 --> 00:31:29,965 problems are to get closer to equity within the field, right? 477 00:31:30,345 --> 00:31:32,095 Have more women representation. 478 00:31:32,530 --> 00:31:35,860 And, and there are lots of other underrepresented groups, not just 479 00:31:35,870 --> 00:31:47,740 women, but, right, um, has, have more diversity and, Have you seen that? 480 00:31:49,470 --> 00:31:54,600 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's definitely a big push here and some departments 481 00:31:54,739 --> 00:32:00,860 do better than others, uh, you know, I think it's, it's just based on kind 482 00:32:00,860 --> 00:32:09,010 of where, where the field is, um, But, yeah, I think, though, you know, we 483 00:32:09,010 --> 00:32:10,890 have come a long way in a hundred years. 484 00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:15,700 Bucknell graduated its first female engineer, um, a hundred years ago, 485 00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:17,790 like, mid May we celebrated that. 486 00:32:18,139 --> 00:32:18,179 So. 487 00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:21,680 So that, that was, that's awesome. 488 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,230 And, you know, there are a lot more women here than there were, but also it's been 489 00:32:25,230 --> 00:32:31,470 a hundred years and like we haven't made as much progress as we should have, right? 490 00:32:31,980 --> 00:32:37,500 We're still maybe 10, 20 percent in some departments. 491 00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:39,749 Um, right. 492 00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:43,230 So, uh, you know, I think we need to. 493 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:51,530 Think about the framework that we're working in, and, uh, you know, the stories 494 00:32:51,530 --> 00:33:01,260 that we tell in ePortfolios, I, I think it's a good way to, to widen this view 495 00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:03,670 of what is, what is an engineer, right? 496 00:33:04,019 --> 00:33:09,319 It does have this fairly narrow, typical identity that we define to it. 497 00:33:09,809 --> 00:33:10,139 Um. 498 00:33:10,755 --> 00:33:17,745 And if, but if we can think more broadly about who can be an engineer and what 499 00:33:17,745 --> 00:33:23,584 they might do, what they're interested in, right, that they shouldn't think 500 00:33:23,584 --> 00:33:31,730 about the problem and think about the human aspects, um, Yeah, I think those 501 00:33:31,730 --> 00:33:39,010 kind of big changes need to be happening along with, uh, the recruitment and that.