1 00:00:05,290 --> 00:00:08,894 Welcome to Working Towards Our Purpose, a podcast that 2 00:00:08,932 --> 00:00:12,590 offers a different perspective on what a job can be. For everyone 3 00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:16,462 out there that's heard that voice in the back of their head asking for something 4 00:00:16,516 --> 00:00:20,106 more, it's time to listen to it. I'm your host, Gino, 5 00:00:20,218 --> 00:00:23,886 and join me as I interview people who have decided to work in their 6 00:00:23,908 --> 00:00:27,698 own purpose. Together, we will learn, become inspired, 7 00:00:27,794 --> 00:00:31,430 and hopefully find our own path towards working in our purpose. 8 00:00:33,370 --> 00:00:37,158 Joining me today on Working Towards Our Purpose is Dave Phelan, who is one of 9 00:00:37,164 --> 00:00:40,906 the founders of Loople Mobile, which is an app that connects customers 10 00:00:41,008 --> 00:00:44,570 to restaurants and bars. He is also the co founder of 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,090 Founders Approach, where he helps small businesses build and develop 12 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,786 apps and websites. Dave is also a podcaster, and he hosts the 13 00:00:51,808 --> 00:00:55,166 show Why I Quit, where he interviews people who have quit their nine to 14 00:00:55,188 --> 00:00:59,006 fives. Me and Dave met through a friend, Cody, so shout out to 15 00:00:59,028 --> 00:01:02,766 Cody if he's listening. And Dave, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for 16 00:01:02,788 --> 00:01:06,638 having me. I definitely appreciate it and look forward to chatting about a 17 00:01:06,644 --> 00:01:10,466 bunch of yeah. Yeah. So if you first want to start, tell 18 00:01:10,488 --> 00:01:13,746 us a little bit about yourself, like maybe where you grew up and where you 19 00:01:13,768 --> 00:01:17,558 went to school and college. Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up outside the 20 00:01:17,564 --> 00:01:20,802 Philadelphia area, went to college at Susquehanna 21 00:01:20,866 --> 00:01:24,374 University, was studying business. Didn't really have 22 00:01:24,412 --> 00:01:28,214 a particular path. I knew I exactly wanted to go down. 23 00:01:28,252 --> 00:01:31,866 I knew I wanted to be involved in business. And after college, 24 00:01:31,968 --> 00:01:35,754 I got my first job in the corporate world, working for an 25 00:01:35,792 --> 00:01:39,622 engineering firm. I worked on the management side, kind of wore 26 00:01:39,686 --> 00:01:43,194 a bunch of different hats. Learned a lot there. But during that 27 00:01:43,232 --> 00:01:46,874 time, myself and one of my best friends from college were always bouncing 28 00:01:46,922 --> 00:01:50,654 around ideas. We always wanted to start something and didn't really 29 00:01:50,692 --> 00:01:54,062 know what that was going to be. And eventually we had an idea that 30 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:57,774 stuck, and both of us quit our full time jobs 31 00:01:57,822 --> 00:02:01,554 to take the leap. And that was the initial app that we 32 00:02:01,592 --> 00:02:05,090 built out called Loople. And essentially the concept 33 00:02:05,430 --> 00:02:08,646 know, my co founder at the time, Phil, he was working as a sales rep 34 00:02:08,668 --> 00:02:12,454 for Boston Beer. So Sam Adams, Angry Orchard, he was going into 35 00:02:12,492 --> 00:02:16,002 these bars and restaurants on a daily basis, selling in these specials 36 00:02:16,146 --> 00:02:19,918 to sell his product. And a lot of these bars and restaurants are offering 37 00:02:19,954 --> 00:02:23,146 a daily special, essentially as advertisement to draw in 38 00:02:23,168 --> 00:02:26,954 people. But many times that information that special 39 00:02:26,992 --> 00:02:30,218 is not actually getting to the consumers before they walk in the door. A lot 40 00:02:30,224 --> 00:02:33,766 of times you're downselling them once they get in. And so some bars and restaurants 41 00:02:33,798 --> 00:02:37,406 would post on social media. Other people would have it on their website. There was 42 00:02:37,428 --> 00:02:40,606 not really, like, one place where you could find all that information. So we wanted 43 00:02:40,628 --> 00:02:44,450 to build out an application to do that and essentially 44 00:02:45,430 --> 00:02:49,166 built out the first version. Iterated a bunch ended 45 00:02:49,198 --> 00:02:52,914 up growing to over 50,000 users and it was a really 46 00:02:52,952 --> 00:02:56,786 cool experience, a good learning experience. It didn't fully work out the way we wanted 47 00:02:56,808 --> 00:03:00,326 it to from like a monetization perspective, but it also helped us 48 00:03:00,348 --> 00:03:04,086 pivot and kind of lead us into different businesses of where we ended up 49 00:03:04,108 --> 00:03:07,846 today. Interesting. So yeah, how did you first 50 00:03:07,868 --> 00:03:11,706 get into the app building world? Did you 51 00:03:11,728 --> 00:03:15,338 have like a tech background? Did you learn as you went or did your 52 00:03:15,344 --> 00:03:18,570 partner have some sort of experience or how did that process 53 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:22,046 work? Yeah, great question. So neither of us 54 00:03:22,148 --> 00:03:25,614 had any tech experience whatsoever. Neither of us took 55 00:03:25,652 --> 00:03:29,406 any tech classes. We were more on the 56 00:03:29,428 --> 00:03:33,118 finance and sales business side of it. But we did 57 00:03:33,204 --> 00:03:36,938 a deep dive into teaching ourselves as much as we could about 58 00:03:36,964 --> 00:03:40,354 it and kind of like really understanding the experience. We started off 59 00:03:40,392 --> 00:03:44,178 with wanting to be able to find someone else to build it so we 60 00:03:44,184 --> 00:03:47,906 could focus on growing the business. I think we knew how much time it 61 00:03:47,928 --> 00:03:51,574 was going to take just from an operational and 62 00:03:51,612 --> 00:03:55,346 business development perspective to kind of run and grow and scale a startup 63 00:03:55,458 --> 00:03:58,086 and we wanted to find someone who's going to be the right fit for us. 64 00:03:58,108 --> 00:04:01,654 So we went through the classic looking at every software 65 00:04:01,702 --> 00:04:05,306 development agency near you getting quotes and with 66 00:04:05,328 --> 00:04:09,018 bootstrapping this, we were getting quotes for six figures to build out an MVP. And 67 00:04:09,024 --> 00:04:12,538 we were like, well that's never going to happen. And then tried to find a 68 00:04:12,544 --> 00:04:16,382 CTO, someone who's willing to work for equity. But a lot of times it's really 69 00:04:16,436 --> 00:04:19,774 hard to find someone who is on the same wavelength as you 70 00:04:19,812 --> 00:04:23,406 of wanting to buy in as much to the ideas that you want 71 00:04:23,428 --> 00:04:26,834 to and being willing to work for equity, essentially, like not 72 00:04:26,872 --> 00:04:30,594 pay. Because a lot of times, if there's a developer talented enough, they can 73 00:04:30,632 --> 00:04:34,466 be off making great money elsewhere. And so it's really hard to 74 00:04:34,488 --> 00:04:38,194 find that person. And then we had heard a lot of horror stories about experiences 75 00:04:38,242 --> 00:04:41,574 overseas with people that just got burned and 76 00:04:41,612 --> 00:04:45,446 didn't spend a lot of money but didn't get what they wanted and 77 00:04:45,628 --> 00:04:49,398 people that they didn't necessarily trust. And so we spent a 78 00:04:49,404 --> 00:04:52,826 ton of time and due diligence until we found a team overseas that we were 79 00:04:52,848 --> 00:04:56,634 comfortable with and it was a learning experience for sure. There's a ten 80 00:04:56,672 --> 00:05:00,362 hour time difference, there's a language barrier. We had never project 81 00:05:00,416 --> 00:05:03,914 managed anything before and so I think a lot of YouTube 82 00:05:03,962 --> 00:05:07,774 videos, a lot of books, a lot of just like learning from 83 00:05:07,812 --> 00:05:11,598 failures and we ended up building our own project management process 84 00:05:11,684 --> 00:05:15,438 that allowed us to efficiently manage the team. And we got to a 85 00:05:15,444 --> 00:05:19,202 point where we got our first version out. We were 86 00:05:19,336 --> 00:05:22,946 doing iterations every two weeks with new features and updates based on 87 00:05:22,968 --> 00:05:26,722 talking to our customers and we were continually learning. And then we kind of took 88 00:05:26,776 --> 00:05:30,150 that process of what we learned and then we used that to 89 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:33,586 replicate that, to build apps and websites for other startups 90 00:05:33,618 --> 00:05:36,754 in eventually what became our next company founders 91 00:05:36,802 --> 00:05:40,598 approach. Interesting. Yeah. I'm very interested 92 00:05:40,684 --> 00:05:44,426 in your story and how you kind of just figured out how to do 93 00:05:44,448 --> 00:05:47,642 it right. And I guess one thing that kind of comes to mind. I remember 94 00:05:47,696 --> 00:05:51,386 reading The Four Hour Work Week, and there's like one chapter or something in there 95 00:05:51,408 --> 00:05:54,846 that says they can even give you a website. I think of go 96 00:05:54,868 --> 00:05:58,554 overseas and get work done there because it's cheaper. 97 00:05:58,602 --> 00:06:02,318 And where did you get the idea to go overseas to try to 98 00:06:02,324 --> 00:06:06,130 get some of the app to be developed? Did it come from that book 99 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,682 specifically? I honestly think that is a great 100 00:06:09,736 --> 00:06:13,234 book, but I think if I had to guess where it came 101 00:06:13,272 --> 00:06:17,110 from, it was Google. I mean, I think we were Googling just 102 00:06:17,260 --> 00:06:20,822 best ways to find developers, and I think it was purely price 103 00:06:20,876 --> 00:06:24,406 point. We were bootstrapping this on our own, 104 00:06:24,588 --> 00:06:28,406 especially for the first version. And we needed to 105 00:06:28,428 --> 00:06:32,060 find something that was affordable, that allowed us to 106 00:06:32,670 --> 00:06:36,506 quit our jobs, but still have runway to be able to see 107 00:06:36,528 --> 00:06:40,314 if we could make this thing work. And so really it boiled down to price 108 00:06:40,352 --> 00:06:43,738 point. The only price point that was going to work was overseas. And then it 109 00:06:43,744 --> 00:06:47,562 just got to a point where, what's the best way to find overseas developers? 110 00:06:47,626 --> 00:06:51,406 And we ended up using a platform called Upwork. It was called something else at 111 00:06:51,428 --> 00:06:55,006 the time they got bought out. They're now called Upwork, but it allows 112 00:06:55,038 --> 00:06:58,562 you I mean, we probably did 30, 40 different 113 00:06:58,616 --> 00:07:02,434 interviews until we finally found the one that was like the right one for us. 114 00:07:02,472 --> 00:07:06,066 And so I think the beauty of the 115 00:07:06,088 --> 00:07:09,846 Internet nowadays is that you can find all the information that you want, but 116 00:07:09,868 --> 00:07:12,854 I think you need to spend a ton of time kind of like curating and 117 00:07:12,892 --> 00:07:16,120 vetting and figuring it out. Because I think 118 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:20,140 for every developer you find that works, 119 00:07:20,670 --> 00:07:24,486 it's not like it's the same process for each one. We've 120 00:07:24,518 --> 00:07:28,298 also had developers and agencies we've worked with that haven't worked out. And 121 00:07:28,304 --> 00:07:32,102 so I think being willing to be open to opportunities 122 00:07:32,166 --> 00:07:35,886 and try different things, but being ready to know with gut intuition that this might 123 00:07:35,908 --> 00:07:39,198 not be the right option and then when you do find the right option, kind 124 00:07:39,204 --> 00:07:42,720 of double down on that and kind of take it from there. 125 00:07:43,730 --> 00:07:47,474 Yeah, I think that's good advice for sure. So I also want to ask 126 00:07:47,512 --> 00:07:51,346 you, what was the transition like to go from a corporate job that 127 00:07:51,368 --> 00:07:55,186 maybe you had a degree in or you went to school and to quitting and 128 00:07:55,208 --> 00:07:58,806 then kind of doing your own thing? Were there any challenges or struggles that 129 00:07:58,828 --> 00:08:02,566 you immediately faced or was it something that you were so fired up 130 00:08:02,588 --> 00:08:05,718 about figuring out that you just kind of went all in on it? 131 00:08:05,884 --> 00:08:09,366 Yeah, it was really tough. I would say 132 00:08:09,548 --> 00:08:12,714 initially quitting my job was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. 133 00:08:12,752 --> 00:08:16,410 And I think more from a perspective of I felt like I was 134 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,394 letting my managers and coworkers down. I mean, 135 00:08:20,432 --> 00:08:23,886 I think I had built such good relationships there that 136 00:08:24,068 --> 00:08:27,438 I just was super nervous about the process of 137 00:08:27,524 --> 00:08:31,118 leaving. And so I think even just getting to the point of quitting, I 138 00:08:31,124 --> 00:08:34,846 think there were two separate times I went into my boss's office to quit that 139 00:08:34,868 --> 00:08:37,666 I actually didn't end up doing it and I go back in another time because 140 00:08:37,688 --> 00:08:41,026 I was just so nervous about it. I 141 00:08:41,048 --> 00:08:44,706 think that to me was definitely the 142 00:08:44,728 --> 00:08:48,454 hardest part. And I think there was so 143 00:08:48,492 --> 00:08:52,246 much unknown as a startup mobile app. We 144 00:08:52,268 --> 00:08:55,720 had no salary, we had no nothing. It's really 145 00:08:56,490 --> 00:08:59,942 a lottery ticket to a degree of like this thing's either going to be worth 146 00:08:59,996 --> 00:09:03,834 zero or it's going to be worth a lot of money and there's really not 147 00:09:03,872 --> 00:09:07,226 much in between it. So you're really taking a risk and taking a gamble. And 148 00:09:07,248 --> 00:09:10,746 so I think there was a lot of excitement in terms of 149 00:09:10,928 --> 00:09:14,238 what could it be? We could build the type of company we wanted to build. 150 00:09:14,324 --> 00:09:17,726 We were able to learn a 151 00:09:17,748 --> 00:09:21,274 ton. You go from working in a corporate 152 00:09:21,322 --> 00:09:25,026 company where you have a very specific defined role and everyone has 153 00:09:25,048 --> 00:09:28,194 their different roles, to a startup where you're doing everything 154 00:09:28,312 --> 00:09:31,970 from legal to accounting to sales to 155 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,634 project management. So you're wearing all these different hats, so you're learning a lot. 156 00:09:35,672 --> 00:09:39,198 So I think that part of it's super exciting and the 157 00:09:39,224 --> 00:09:42,850 excitement of the wins of the startup. You have your first download, 158 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:46,726 your first positive review to your first sale, and you have these things that 159 00:09:46,748 --> 00:09:50,294 are such like mile markers and they're such highs. And so I think in 160 00:09:50,332 --> 00:09:53,946 entrepreneurship, what I always tell people is it's like the highest of highs and 161 00:09:53,968 --> 00:09:57,814 lowest of lows. You have these moments that are so incredibly fulfilling, 162 00:09:57,942 --> 00:10:01,354 but very quickly it could be the same day or the next day. You have 163 00:10:01,392 --> 00:10:04,620 these lows that are extremely low and so you have 164 00:10:04,930 --> 00:10:08,734 I remember times where I literally had less 165 00:10:08,772 --> 00:10:10,960 than $10 left in my bank account. 166 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:16,286 I was on food stamps. I was just fighting to survive, just trying 167 00:10:16,308 --> 00:10:19,794 to pay my bills and do all these things just to keep the startup going. 168 00:10:19,912 --> 00:10:23,694 And I think you have these moments where you're like, I wouldn't 169 00:10:23,742 --> 00:10:27,446 be where I'm at today without that, but you kind of have to sacrifice to 170 00:10:27,468 --> 00:10:30,630 get through it. And so I think overall, 171 00:10:31,370 --> 00:10:35,094 I don't think I was super confident that I'm like, 172 00:10:35,212 --> 00:10:38,566 this is going to be worth millions of dollars, 173 00:10:38,748 --> 00:10:42,586 but I also don't think I recognized how hard the path was going 174 00:10:42,608 --> 00:10:45,958 to be. But I think having a co founder 175 00:10:46,054 --> 00:10:49,654 who's extremely supportive having a spouse who is extremely supportive 176 00:10:49,702 --> 00:10:53,466 throughout, it can help weather those extreme highs and lows 177 00:10:53,498 --> 00:10:56,734 to get to a point where you figure out what works and figure 178 00:10:56,772 --> 00:11:00,526 out how you can make a living doing it, 179 00:11:00,548 --> 00:11:04,350 and then you kind of just keep grinding down that path, essentially. 180 00:11:05,010 --> 00:11:08,786 I was going to ask you about that too. The fact of having a co 181 00:11:08,808 --> 00:11:12,466 founder and somebody in business with a partner and how does 182 00:11:12,488 --> 00:11:16,114 that kind of help drive you? Because you kind of have accountability with each 183 00:11:16,152 --> 00:11:19,894 other. Right. Do you think that that has been one of the things that has 184 00:11:19,932 --> 00:11:23,142 helped you keep going? When the times got tough, was the two of you working 185 00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:27,030 together on this one project? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. 186 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:30,666 I would say if I was at this solo, there's no way I 187 00:11:30,688 --> 00:11:34,538 would still be going at it. I think Phil and 188 00:11:34,544 --> 00:11:37,900 I talk about this all the time. You hold the other person 189 00:11:38,430 --> 00:11:41,962 grounded, accountable. There's moments where 190 00:11:42,016 --> 00:11:45,726 each person is the other person's support. There are some days where 191 00:11:45,748 --> 00:11:49,130 I'm like, this is not worth it, this is brutal. 192 00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:53,066 And he's able to kind of be that soundboard, that voice 193 00:11:53,098 --> 00:11:56,340 of reasoning, and vice versa. And I think 194 00:11:57,510 --> 00:12:00,658 having a person where you can kind of diversify your skill set 195 00:12:00,744 --> 00:12:04,434 and have your lanes, where there are certain things that he takes 196 00:12:04,472 --> 00:12:08,226 on, there are certain things that I take on, and being able to rely on 197 00:12:08,248 --> 00:12:11,858 each other for that and then just like the support system in itself, because it's 198 00:12:11,874 --> 00:12:15,574 super isolating. I mean, I think you can go from 199 00:12:15,612 --> 00:12:18,914 a company where you have hundreds or thousands of coworkers 200 00:12:18,962 --> 00:12:22,534 to being an entrepreneur where you have none overnight. 201 00:12:22,662 --> 00:12:26,442 And a lot of times nowadays you're working remote and so you can be working 202 00:12:26,496 --> 00:12:30,346 from home, you can be by yourself. And so having another person to rely on 203 00:12:30,368 --> 00:12:33,198 is super important. And that's not to say you can't do it alone. I think 204 00:12:33,204 --> 00:12:36,446 there's a lot of people that do it very successfully. But I think if you 205 00:12:36,468 --> 00:12:39,646 are a solo entrepreneur, it's even more important to 206 00:12:39,828 --> 00:12:43,438 rely on your partner, your friends, 207 00:12:43,524 --> 00:12:47,262 your family, because even if you don't have that co founder, 208 00:12:47,406 --> 00:12:51,154 you need to kind of find that support somewhere. And so being 209 00:12:51,192 --> 00:12:54,978 able to look for that and find people like that in your life, I think 210 00:12:54,984 --> 00:12:57,960 is super impactful to be actually able to 211 00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:01,110 continue the path of entrepreneurship. 212 00:13:01,690 --> 00:13:05,142 Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and it's definitely something 213 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:08,966 I've kind of experienced myself too. I know we had talked about 214 00:13:08,988 --> 00:13:11,878 a little bit in the past, but when I first quit, it was during the 215 00:13:11,884 --> 00:13:15,626 pandemic. I was living alone, so much isolation, and it 216 00:13:15,648 --> 00:13:18,186 kind of got to a point where I was like, all right, something's got to 217 00:13:18,208 --> 00:13:21,180 change because this isn't going to be able to keep going the way it is. 218 00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:25,534 And so yeah, I think it's very important to have whether it's co founder or 219 00:13:25,652 --> 00:13:29,406 people in your networking circle or like 220 00:13:29,428 --> 00:13:33,086 you said, family or friends and things like that. I did want to ask you 221 00:13:33,108 --> 00:13:36,926 about your relationship with Phil and how you found out that you guys would 222 00:13:36,948 --> 00:13:40,798 be good business partners. You said you were friends first. Do you think that that's 223 00:13:40,814 --> 00:13:44,562 a good thing? Because a lot of times you hear people saying don't go into 224 00:13:44,616 --> 00:13:47,934 business with your friends because then you won't be friends anymore. What's your stance 225 00:13:47,982 --> 00:13:51,734 on mean? You know, you 226 00:13:51,772 --> 00:13:55,430 have no idea how you're going to work with someone 227 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:59,226 until you actually do. But I think we had a lot 228 00:13:59,248 --> 00:14:03,082 of conversations early on about a lot of hard 229 00:14:03,136 --> 00:14:06,490 things like what is expectations around 230 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,066 work, around money, even like equity conversations. 231 00:14:10,198 --> 00:14:13,902 And I think the biggest thing 232 00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:17,630 without a doubt is communication in terms of open 233 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:21,374 communication. Because I think we've been 234 00:14:21,412 --> 00:14:24,640 extremely lucky to have 235 00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:28,846 been in business for eight years together and we've had a very successful 236 00:14:28,878 --> 00:14:32,674 relationship and we've been able to navigate business and friendship. That doesn't mean that 237 00:14:32,712 --> 00:14:36,366 it's all easy times though. I think something that we've learned 238 00:14:36,398 --> 00:14:40,070 is figuring out how to be open and honest about 239 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:43,506 having difficult conversations, how to have that conversation, 240 00:14:43,698 --> 00:14:47,106 how to respect the other person's feeling and then also how to separate 241 00:14:47,138 --> 00:14:50,746 friendships with business. I think that's one of the hardest parts. And I think there 242 00:14:50,768 --> 00:14:54,140 are times where we physically say 243 00:14:54,670 --> 00:14:58,410 we're not talking about work outside of work as a friend, 244 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,206 how are you? Or you have these moments where it's like you need 245 00:15:02,228 --> 00:15:06,046 to figure out ways to separate work and business. But also sometimes you just 246 00:15:06,068 --> 00:15:09,694 realize that those things are intertwined and they are 247 00:15:09,892 --> 00:15:13,122 tied together. And so I think being 248 00:15:13,256 --> 00:15:16,546 thoughtful and empathetic of the other person and just having open 249 00:15:16,648 --> 00:15:20,066 conversations can help build a 250 00:15:20,088 --> 00:15:23,346 successful relationship like that. But also I 251 00:15:23,368 --> 00:15:27,026 think you need to know how your personalities and 252 00:15:27,048 --> 00:15:30,662 skill set mesh with someone you're looking to work with as well. 253 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:34,326 Because I think there are times where there could be 254 00:15:34,348 --> 00:15:37,766 someone that you could have great open communication with 255 00:15:37,868 --> 00:15:41,466 and you have a really great relationship. But 256 00:15:41,648 --> 00:15:45,046 if your personality types or your skill 257 00:15:45,078 --> 00:15:48,826 sets would kind of overlap in terms of the type 258 00:15:48,848 --> 00:15:52,586 of business that you're going to run, sometimes that could be a recipe for 259 00:15:52,608 --> 00:15:56,286 disaster. And so I think before ever jumping in with a 260 00:15:56,308 --> 00:15:59,866 specific person is just like aligning on expectations. I think that's 261 00:15:59,898 --> 00:16:03,070 super huge talking about how you're going to communicate. 262 00:16:03,810 --> 00:16:07,506 And I think there is never really a perfect answer but I 263 00:16:07,528 --> 00:16:11,234 think kind of going with your gut of like if you've talked about it enough 264 00:16:11,272 --> 00:16:15,106 and you think you're both aligned, don't be afraid to make the 265 00:16:15,128 --> 00:16:17,640 jump just because you're friends. But also 266 00:16:18,490 --> 00:16:22,278 sometimes if you have a gut feeling that there are 267 00:16:22,364 --> 00:16:25,954 some things that aren't aligned and you have different working styles 268 00:16:26,002 --> 00:16:29,798 that you don't think you can get over. I think sometimes you just have 269 00:16:29,804 --> 00:16:33,318 to be aware of that too. That all sounds like really good advice 270 00:16:33,414 --> 00:16:37,066 and something that I think about more and more as I find my way 271 00:16:37,088 --> 00:16:40,774 through entrepreneurship and think about doing new projects 272 00:16:40,822 --> 00:16:44,594 with people because I've been pretty much a solo entrepreneur 273 00:16:44,662 --> 00:16:48,206 up until this point and kind of feel a little bit of the limitations of 274 00:16:48,228 --> 00:16:51,998 it. So as someone who's kind of maybe newer into that world, I 275 00:16:52,004 --> 00:16:55,778 think that's I appreciate your words for sure. I do want to kind 276 00:16:55,784 --> 00:16:59,490 of jump into your next venture and maybe talk about 277 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,454 the second sort of transition of you going from loophole to founders 278 00:17:03,502 --> 00:17:07,154 approach. And you do that with Phil as well, your business partner. 279 00:17:07,202 --> 00:17:09,160 You guys stayed partners through that. 280 00:17:10,490 --> 00:17:14,294 So basically we reached a point about two 281 00:17:14,332 --> 00:17:18,042 years in that with Lupal, we just weren't making 282 00:17:18,096 --> 00:17:21,930 enough money to sustain the business. And I think 283 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,690 that the business model was just not there. Like we 284 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,466 hadn't paid ourselves and bills were running out. 285 00:17:29,488 --> 00:17:33,306 And we actually had a potential investor who was interested in 286 00:17:33,328 --> 00:17:37,134 investing in us and he ended up pulling out and decided not to 287 00:17:37,172 --> 00:17:40,974 invest, which we were super bummed about because we had goals of going 288 00:17:41,012 --> 00:17:44,606 nationwide and we wanted to hire people and we had all these things we wanted 289 00:17:44,628 --> 00:17:48,418 to work through. But I think looking back, it turned out to 290 00:17:48,424 --> 00:17:52,018 be a blessing in disguise because I think we were always going to 291 00:17:52,024 --> 00:17:55,506 struggle with the business model. I think that's a lot of times what people in 292 00:17:55,528 --> 00:17:58,934 the consumer app space fight where it's like when you are in 293 00:17:58,972 --> 00:18:02,770 a revenue model that's based on digital advertisements, 294 00:18:02,930 --> 00:18:06,054 you either need a crazy user base or a specific 295 00:18:06,172 --> 00:18:09,818 niche type of advertising customer that you can sell to 296 00:18:09,904 --> 00:18:13,466 and it's very difficult. And we fought that 297 00:18:13,488 --> 00:18:17,226 battle for two years and then eventually we just got 298 00:18:17,248 --> 00:18:20,826 to a point where we couldn't do that anymore. But that investor who 299 00:18:20,928 --> 00:18:24,766 pulled out asked us separately that if we'd be interested in 300 00:18:24,788 --> 00:18:28,622 building an app for him. And it was something that we actually 301 00:18:28,676 --> 00:18:32,240 honestly weren't thrilled about, but we were like, hey, maybe we can 302 00:18:32,690 --> 00:18:36,158 pay rent this month if we do this thing. And so 303 00:18:36,324 --> 00:18:38,946 we did that and then we had another person come to us and we did 304 00:18:38,968 --> 00:18:42,610 another project and then it just started snowballing. And I think we found this 305 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,478 market where there were a lot of startups and small businesses out there that couldn't 306 00:18:46,494 --> 00:18:50,274 afford us development but didn't know where to go overseas. And so we focused 307 00:18:50,322 --> 00:18:54,146 on coming at it with an entrepreneurial mindset 308 00:18:54,178 --> 00:18:57,942 of partnering with these types of clients and almost being like a stand 309 00:18:57,996 --> 00:19:01,786 in CTO of like we will manage every aspect of the 310 00:19:01,808 --> 00:19:05,610 build from turnkey, from design and idea 311 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,578 through getting it live. And we can provide hell of 312 00:19:09,584 --> 00:19:13,150 a lot more affordable prices in the US. And we're going to focus on customer 313 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:16,718 service and giving you a great experience along the way. And 314 00:19:16,884 --> 00:19:20,478 we've now been doing that full time since 2016 315 00:19:20,484 --> 00:19:24,222 and we've probably built over 200 different 316 00:19:24,276 --> 00:19:28,020 products between apps and websites for different companies. And, yeah, 317 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:32,610 it's been a really good experience. I think we've been exposed to some amazing companies 318 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,434 who are doing some amazing things and it's something different every 319 00:19:36,472 --> 00:19:40,038 day. And we've built our own overseas team that's been 320 00:19:40,124 --> 00:19:43,862 great as well, of like, we have reliable talent that we can trust and count 321 00:19:43,916 --> 00:19:47,618 on and then we have our team here of project managers, so it's 322 00:19:47,634 --> 00:19:51,434 Phil, myself, and then we also have another partner, Cole. And so it's really 323 00:19:51,472 --> 00:19:55,114 the three of us that kind of work with these clients know, to really 324 00:19:55,152 --> 00:19:58,826 understand what their development needs are and bring them to life. And 325 00:19:58,848 --> 00:20:02,350 so it's been a lot of fun kind of building 326 00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:05,774 that and something we never expected, but it's something we really 327 00:20:05,812 --> 00:20:09,594 enjoy. That's interesting. I imagine 328 00:20:09,642 --> 00:20:13,486 letting that go and moving on to something new must have been something you 329 00:20:13,508 --> 00:20:17,266 had to get over mentally. And how was that process for you? 330 00:20:17,288 --> 00:20:20,290 I guess, like letting go of the old idea. Yeah, I mean, 331 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,874 honestly, that was super difficult. That was another one 332 00:20:23,912 --> 00:20:27,454 of definitely the lower points, professionally, 333 00:20:27,502 --> 00:20:30,886 personally, admitting that this thing that 334 00:20:30,908 --> 00:20:34,726 you've poured blood, sweat and tears into was not going to work. And then 335 00:20:34,748 --> 00:20:38,466 also we had raised a small friends and family round and we had to talk 336 00:20:38,508 --> 00:20:42,266 to our friends and families and investors and talk to them. We were 337 00:20:42,288 --> 00:20:46,010 shutting down and it was just like just some of the worst conversations 338 00:20:46,670 --> 00:20:50,414 and I think that at 339 00:20:50,452 --> 00:20:51,840 that time, I think 340 00:20:54,050 --> 00:20:56,750 we had Grinded for like two years straight. 341 00:20:57,730 --> 00:21:01,134 We were tired, we were poor, and I think we got to a point 342 00:21:01,172 --> 00:21:04,914 where we just needed to 343 00:21:05,112 --> 00:21:08,740 get financially secure. And so I think 344 00:21:09,670 --> 00:21:13,454 sometimes people start businesses because there's an idea that they're passionate 345 00:21:13,502 --> 00:21:16,514 about and this is what they're going to do. But we were at a time 346 00:21:16,552 --> 00:21:20,246 where we had very little options and we didn't want to 347 00:21:20,268 --> 00:21:23,320 go back to a nine to five. And so we were like, 348 00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:27,974 let's see if we can make this work. And so I think we came at 349 00:21:28,012 --> 00:21:31,722 it from a more desperate, for lack of a better 350 00:21:31,776 --> 00:21:35,626 word, perspective, but we knew we had skills and we knew we could 351 00:21:35,648 --> 00:21:39,306 build it because we'd done it before. So I think we were pretty 352 00:21:39,328 --> 00:21:43,086 confident in what we could offer and then just to see if it 353 00:21:43,108 --> 00:21:46,640 would work. And I think I would say as we 354 00:21:47,090 --> 00:21:50,366 were able to start gaining more clients and started getting 355 00:21:50,548 --> 00:21:54,366 positive feedback and started getting new clients, we were able to see like, we were 356 00:21:54,388 --> 00:21:57,582 on the right track here. And I think it made it easier 357 00:21:57,646 --> 00:22:01,442 to focus on the fact that even though the 358 00:22:01,496 --> 00:22:05,070 original idea didn't work, we could kind of take what we learned 359 00:22:05,150 --> 00:22:08,866 and we can still run a business without having to go back to 360 00:22:08,888 --> 00:22:12,406 a nine to five. And I think that at the end of the day was 361 00:22:12,508 --> 00:22:15,826 super intriguing to us. And so I think that was kind of like the turning 362 00:22:15,858 --> 00:22:19,466 point of like, okay, now that we have some validation here, how do 363 00:22:19,488 --> 00:22:22,874 we scale this thing to be able to do this sustainably long 364 00:22:22,912 --> 00:22:26,234 term? Right? So you could see 365 00:22:26,272 --> 00:22:30,074 the past heartaches contribute to something 366 00:22:30,112 --> 00:22:33,798 new in the future and therefore it wasn't like a waste of time, it was 367 00:22:33,824 --> 00:22:37,166 like, well you learned a lot and now you're using what you learned to this 368 00:22:37,188 --> 00:22:41,006 new thing. That's really cool. So in going along with 369 00:22:41,028 --> 00:22:44,698 that, how did you find new clients once you figured out you could do it 370 00:22:44,724 --> 00:22:48,546 for the first one? What was your marketing approach? Or was it 371 00:22:48,568 --> 00:22:52,286 word of mouth or how did you go about acquiring your new clients? 372 00:22:52,478 --> 00:22:56,326 Yeah, I think something that we're pretty proud of 373 00:22:56,348 --> 00:23:00,182 to this day is that we haven't spent any money 374 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:03,814 on marketing. I think we 375 00:23:03,852 --> 00:23:07,480 started in the beginning so focused on just kind of 376 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:11,654 our network of people, and from those initial 377 00:23:11,702 --> 00:23:14,700 clients, we were getting referrals to do more work, 378 00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:19,066 and then we just built these super strong relationships. And so I think we 379 00:23:19,088 --> 00:23:22,878 were able to find clients of just it was everything 380 00:23:22,964 --> 00:23:25,680 from referrals from past clients to 381 00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:29,738 us reaching out to our network, just telling them what we're 382 00:23:29,754 --> 00:23:33,166 doing now, and people being like, oh, I know this person who's looking for 383 00:23:33,188 --> 00:23:36,866 that, and it just kind of snowballed on itself. And so 384 00:23:36,968 --> 00:23:40,734 I think at the end of the day, that's not a fully sustainable 385 00:23:40,782 --> 00:23:44,114 model that can only take you so far. But it's kept us 386 00:23:44,152 --> 00:23:47,906 busy and I think that's something that we talk to people about a 387 00:23:47,928 --> 00:23:51,698 lot. Is there's a real power in your network? And don't 388 00:23:51,714 --> 00:23:55,462 be afraid to talk about what you do because 389 00:23:55,516 --> 00:23:59,098 you never know who needs the services that you provide. 390 00:23:59,184 --> 00:24:03,002 And I think I don't like social 391 00:24:03,056 --> 00:24:06,762 media. I haven't had any social media in the past five 392 00:24:06,816 --> 00:24:10,654 years. I deleted everything out, I hadn't had anything. The only thing I have 393 00:24:10,692 --> 00:24:13,838 left is a LinkedIn, which arguably is social media. 394 00:24:13,924 --> 00:24:17,600 But I don't like posting on LinkedIn. I don't like 395 00:24:18,130 --> 00:24:21,280 kind of like self promoting, but I think 396 00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:25,410 it's been super powerful in terms of even 397 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,282 just starting a podcast talking about what we do with our company. 398 00:24:29,416 --> 00:24:32,914 We've gotten tons of clients just from 399 00:24:33,112 --> 00:24:36,754 friends, family and second 3rd connections being like, oh 400 00:24:36,792 --> 00:24:39,806 that's awesome, I didn't know you did that. You should talk to this person, they're 401 00:24:39,838 --> 00:24:43,606 looking for this. And so I think there's a good way to do 402 00:24:43,628 --> 00:24:46,374 it and a bad way to do it. But I think I always tell people 403 00:24:46,572 --> 00:24:50,006 a lot of times people are a little hesitant to post about what they 404 00:24:50,028 --> 00:24:53,498 do, but I think it's a really good thing to 405 00:24:53,664 --> 00:24:56,778 not only tell people what you do, but remind them. And I think if you 406 00:24:56,784 --> 00:25:00,026 do it in a genuine and authentic way, I think people are willing to go 407 00:25:00,048 --> 00:25:03,530 out of their way to help you. Don't be afraid to. You have an 408 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,438 agency of services, business, even a startup idea. It doesn't even need 409 00:25:07,444 --> 00:25:11,226 to be clients. You can ask friends and family for five star reviews 410 00:25:11,258 --> 00:25:14,878 on your product and that small thing can help 411 00:25:14,964 --> 00:25:18,574 boost you up the list in Google. And now all of a sudden, you're getting 412 00:25:18,612 --> 00:25:21,646 double the clicks that you were. And so I think a lot of people are 413 00:25:21,668 --> 00:25:24,238 willing to help, support, and there's a lot of different ways to do it. And 414 00:25:24,244 --> 00:25:27,414 so I think you can get creative on different ways to ask for help and 415 00:25:27,452 --> 00:25:30,934 not to be afraid to do. I I 416 00:25:31,052 --> 00:25:33,880 agree with that. And I have this one friend who 417 00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:37,382 he does a lot of different things and he has a lot of friends who 418 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:41,246 do cool creative sorts of things. His name is Josh and he's 419 00:25:41,298 --> 00:25:45,100 really good about lifting up others. And I think that there's also a really good, 420 00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:49,354 I don't know, call it karma or whatever, but when you're always supporting other 421 00:25:49,392 --> 00:25:52,814 people and then you now have something to have others 422 00:25:52,852 --> 00:25:56,666 support, everybody kind of shows up and supports 423 00:25:56,698 --> 00:25:59,886 you in that way because you have been there in the past. So I think 424 00:25:59,908 --> 00:26:03,694 that that's something to think about as you're starting your own 425 00:26:03,732 --> 00:26:07,378 things. It's like, well, you've been there for other people, so now it's kind of 426 00:26:07,384 --> 00:26:11,186 time to ask for the help, right? I know that's something that I've always 427 00:26:11,208 --> 00:26:14,850 struggled with is asking for help, but I think that that's something 428 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,300 that you can do more often. 429 00:26:18,730 --> 00:26:22,306 So let's talk about your podcast. I want to get into your podcast 430 00:26:22,418 --> 00:26:26,098 and how you started it and why you started it. I know you're 431 00:26:26,114 --> 00:26:29,526 almost like 50 episodes in now, which is significant for a 432 00:26:29,548 --> 00:26:33,162 podcaster. So talk to us about how you started that and what was the idea 433 00:26:33,216 --> 00:26:36,586 in starting it? It was an idea I 434 00:26:36,608 --> 00:26:40,442 had in my head for a while, like probably going back 435 00:26:40,496 --> 00:26:44,014 to 2018, I really got 436 00:26:44,052 --> 00:26:47,486 into listening to podcasts and I think that 437 00:26:47,508 --> 00:26:51,326 was a huge learning experience for me. And especially on the 438 00:26:51,348 --> 00:26:55,002 entrepreneur side, there's so many great podcast 439 00:26:55,066 --> 00:26:58,546 resources out there, especially for people looking for some inspiration. And 440 00:26:58,568 --> 00:27:02,354 sometimes, as we talked about earlier, it can be isolating. There's some ways 441 00:27:02,392 --> 00:27:06,242 you can really resonate with people's stories. And so I got super 442 00:27:06,296 --> 00:27:10,022 hooked on some of the original guy raz. How I built 443 00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:13,862 this, where they focus on original founder stories, but they focus on a 444 00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:17,734 perspective of talking about the early days and the hard things. 445 00:27:17,772 --> 00:27:21,318 They went through, the failures they went through, and what that led to, where it's 446 00:27:21,334 --> 00:27:24,522 like, I don't particularly like or find 447 00:27:24,576 --> 00:27:28,326 valuable when they're telling stories or doing interviews 448 00:27:28,358 --> 00:27:31,882 that they're just talking about. All the good things. I think telling the story about 449 00:27:31,936 --> 00:27:35,630 the journey of how they get there makes it more realistic and you can 450 00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:39,274 resonate with like, oh, you can pick up on things that's helpful 451 00:27:39,322 --> 00:27:42,898 of how they got to this point. And I think something 452 00:27:42,984 --> 00:27:46,082 that I found was that the majority of 453 00:27:46,216 --> 00:27:49,140 rhetoric on social media about 454 00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:53,186 quitting was very much so, like, quit your job and 455 00:27:53,288 --> 00:27:57,014 start this Amazon FBA, and here's how you can make a million dollars in six 456 00:27:57,052 --> 00:28:00,866 months. And it was just this rhetoric 457 00:28:00,898 --> 00:28:04,534 that was very get rich quick. It seemed like very 458 00:28:04,732 --> 00:28:08,182 cringey. And there wasn't a whole lot out there 459 00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:11,898 with people telling real stories about 460 00:28:11,984 --> 00:28:15,738 quitting their job of what was the first year like, what 461 00:28:15,744 --> 00:28:18,940 was it like without a paycheck? What was it like without health insurance? 462 00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:23,114 When did you first feel financially stable with running your 463 00:28:23,152 --> 00:28:26,958 business? What was it like just talking to your boss to quit? And so 464 00:28:27,124 --> 00:28:30,974 I hadn't found any content based around that. And so 465 00:28:31,012 --> 00:28:34,082 that was kind of like the initial idea and then 466 00:28:34,216 --> 00:28:38,034 basically had always wanted to do that, but 467 00:28:38,152 --> 00:28:41,454 just didn't have the time, didn't focus in on it. COVID 468 00:28:41,502 --> 00:28:45,326 Hit and Phil Cole and I were chatting 469 00:28:45,358 --> 00:28:49,190 and we were talking about, hey, what are some different side ideas we can try? 470 00:28:49,260 --> 00:28:53,094 And that one came up and neither of us had any 471 00:28:53,132 --> 00:28:56,902 experience editing, posting, hosting, doing 472 00:28:56,956 --> 00:29:00,426 anything with the podcast. I've never done any interviews and so I think we were 473 00:29:00,448 --> 00:29:03,660 excited about a new learning experience. So kind of dove in to understand 474 00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:09,578 even what microphone to use, how do you set up interviews, how do you record, 475 00:29:09,664 --> 00:29:13,166 how do you edit, how do you post? And I think it was like a 476 00:29:13,188 --> 00:29:16,974 really good learning experience. And then also just got to talk to 477 00:29:17,012 --> 00:29:20,750 some amazing people, just met some incredible people who had some 478 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:24,642 incredible stories and just wanted to tell them. And so, yeah, I think 479 00:29:24,696 --> 00:29:28,418 we're 47 episodes in now and it's been a 480 00:29:28,424 --> 00:29:32,226 really good experience. I think it's helped me grow 481 00:29:32,408 --> 00:29:36,206 my network. I think we've gotten projects 482 00:29:36,238 --> 00:29:39,734 out of it. We've made amazing connections from people who are just like, good people 483 00:29:39,772 --> 00:29:43,302 to talk to. And I've learned a ton that I think we can 484 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:47,080 use for things down the road. So, yeah, it's been a fun experience. 485 00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:51,026 Yeah, definitely. I think that's one of the maybe hidden 486 00:29:51,058 --> 00:29:54,298 values of a podcast that sometimes people don't see right off the 487 00:29:54,304 --> 00:29:57,930 bat. The first thing to think about is downloads and like, oh, 488 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,802 I could sell ads now because I have so many downloads. But I think the 489 00:30:01,856 --> 00:30:04,938 connections part of it is like the biggest piece because you don't have to have 490 00:30:05,024 --> 00:30:08,414 a lot of listeners in order to make connections with your guest or even 491 00:30:08,452 --> 00:30:11,806 just a few listeners here and there who reach out to you and tell you 492 00:30:11,828 --> 00:30:15,006 that it was impactful. I think especially when you're 493 00:30:15,038 --> 00:30:18,606 podcasting and talking about your business. It's such a natural 494 00:30:18,638 --> 00:30:22,020 way, like you're saying it's not cringey. It's the opposite of that. 495 00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:26,386 It's like a natural way to tell people what you do and to just 496 00:30:26,488 --> 00:30:30,226 talk about the things that you can do. So that way you kind of naturally 497 00:30:30,258 --> 00:30:33,734 get a flow of people to come towards you who know who you are because 498 00:30:33,772 --> 00:30:37,574 they've been listening to you. And that's something that I think is 499 00:30:37,612 --> 00:30:40,698 like a secondary benefit that you don't really think of when you first start a 500 00:30:40,704 --> 00:30:44,538 podcast. So I'm glad you were able to articulate it in that way. 501 00:30:44,704 --> 00:30:48,426 So can you define success for 502 00:30:48,528 --> 00:30:51,610 me? Because I know that a lot of people have a different version of success. 503 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,326 And as you shared some of your story with us, there was 504 00:30:55,348 --> 00:30:58,894 a time when you were looking to get your idea going, and then you hit 505 00:30:58,932 --> 00:31:02,478 a wall and you need money, right? Money is always a part of 506 00:31:02,484 --> 00:31:06,226 it. Can you define today, I guess, what success means for 507 00:31:06,248 --> 00:31:09,586 you? Yeah, I think that is such a 508 00:31:09,608 --> 00:31:13,378 good I think, you know, to preface it, I think it's going to 509 00:31:13,384 --> 00:31:17,174 be very different for each person. And I think that that 510 00:31:17,292 --> 00:31:20,774 benchmark constantly changes. And I think 511 00:31:20,972 --> 00:31:24,726 something that Phil Cole and I talk about all the time is that we live 512 00:31:24,748 --> 00:31:28,474 in a society where that benchmark is 513 00:31:28,512 --> 00:31:32,250 continually it's always pushing forward, and sometimes 514 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,166 it can be super tough because it's hard to celebrate wins 515 00:31:36,198 --> 00:31:39,926 when you're always thinking what's next? And so even if you're 516 00:31:39,958 --> 00:31:43,290 like, oh, you set a goal for you want to have X number of sales 517 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,166 in a specific year. You raise your expenses to hit that. And so 518 00:31:47,188 --> 00:31:50,138 you're like, you need to hit the next thing the next year. And sometimes it's 519 00:31:50,154 --> 00:31:53,774 like you don't stop and look back and think about like, 520 00:31:53,812 --> 00:31:57,554 wow, we've done some amazing things. But I think 521 00:31:57,592 --> 00:32:00,194 at the end of the day, the way I try to think about it is 522 00:32:00,232 --> 00:32:03,906 I try to think about the priorities I have 523 00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:07,746 for my life in general and then how work integrates with that. And I 524 00:32:07,768 --> 00:32:11,462 think you have money of how much money do you need to make 525 00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:14,760 to live the life that you want to live. You have 526 00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:18,666 time in terms of how do you want to spend your time, how much 527 00:32:18,768 --> 00:32:22,250 time do you want to spend at work versus 528 00:32:23,150 --> 00:32:26,458 off from work versus traveling? And you have 529 00:32:26,544 --> 00:32:30,282 lifestyle. What type of lifestyle do you want to live in terms 530 00:32:30,336 --> 00:32:33,982 of? There are some jobs that are super stressful. There are ones that 531 00:32:34,036 --> 00:32:37,502 aren't stressful. And so I think they float right, and I think they 532 00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:40,734 change where there could be some 533 00:32:40,932 --> 00:32:44,590 years or months or weeks where money is the most important 534 00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:48,466 thing, and there could be other times where time off and travel is 535 00:32:48,488 --> 00:32:52,274 the most important thing. And so I think when I look at 536 00:32:52,312 --> 00:32:55,750 founders approach and businesses that I have something that 537 00:32:55,820 --> 00:32:59,362 is most important is flexibility 538 00:32:59,506 --> 00:33:03,330 and control of schedule to be able to control those priorities. 539 00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:07,158 And so what I find as a definition of success 540 00:33:07,244 --> 00:33:11,082 is, do I have control over my life? 541 00:33:11,216 --> 00:33:14,986 And founders approach allows us to do that. Now in terms of like, 542 00:33:15,088 --> 00:33:18,746 we have money that we're bringing in and we have the 543 00:33:18,768 --> 00:33:22,618 ability to work from wherever we want, and we control our schedule when we're going 544 00:33:22,624 --> 00:33:26,366 to work. Now, on the flip side of that, we don't have a 545 00:33:26,388 --> 00:33:30,238 consistent salary. We have a lot of stresses. You have all 546 00:33:30,244 --> 00:33:33,966 the stresses of running your own business. And so I think anytime you look at 547 00:33:33,988 --> 00:33:37,458 anything in terms of success, the grass is always greener on the other side. Right, 548 00:33:37,544 --> 00:33:41,234 but it's like kind of understanding what your priorities are to 549 00:33:41,272 --> 00:33:45,026 be able to figure out how to best align what 550 00:33:45,048 --> 00:33:47,590 you're doing on a daily basis to those priorities. 551 00:33:48,570 --> 00:33:52,274 Yeah, no, I appreciate that answer, and I think being realistic 552 00:33:52,322 --> 00:33:56,038 about what your expectations are, too. I think you mentioned 553 00:33:56,124 --> 00:33:59,954 earlier, I think there still is a lot of get rich quick schemes 554 00:34:00,002 --> 00:34:03,754 online. I think I just saw one about Airbnb the other day about how you 555 00:34:03,792 --> 00:34:06,700 don't even need to own the property to make a ton of money. 556 00:34:07,790 --> 00:34:11,546 Yeah, I think the realistic part of it is 557 00:34:11,648 --> 00:34:15,406 definitely something to think about and know that things are going to take 558 00:34:15,428 --> 00:34:19,214 time to grow and that sort of thing. What's one thing that you'd say 559 00:34:19,252 --> 00:34:23,066 that you're struggling with as a business owner and maybe an area 560 00:34:23,108 --> 00:34:26,738 that you could maybe get some help in with your 561 00:34:26,744 --> 00:34:30,274 business? Where it's at now? Yeah, that's a great question. 562 00:34:30,472 --> 00:34:32,980 I think part of that kind of ties into 563 00:34:34,970 --> 00:34:38,742 my previous answer before is we're spending a lot of 564 00:34:38,796 --> 00:34:41,480 time trying to figure out 565 00:34:42,410 --> 00:34:45,880 what do we want founders approach to be in 566 00:34:46,410 --> 00:34:50,086 one year, three years, five years, ten years. Right. And I 567 00:34:50,108 --> 00:34:53,260 think sometimes it's difficult to 568 00:34:53,790 --> 00:34:56,726 when you're thinking about something in both like a short term and a long term 569 00:34:56,758 --> 00:35:00,458 perspective of what do you want something to be? Because I think things 570 00:35:00,544 --> 00:35:04,378 change in terms of your needs, your lifestyle, 571 00:35:04,554 --> 00:35:08,394 all of these things. And so I think what we're constantly 572 00:35:08,442 --> 00:35:11,806 trying to figure out with founders approach is like, how do we build a 573 00:35:11,828 --> 00:35:15,314 business that we want to work at today, but also set 574 00:35:15,352 --> 00:35:18,820 ourselves up long term that this is. 575 00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:23,314 So, you know, something we talked about a lot is 576 00:35:23,352 --> 00:35:26,690 that there's really three full time project 577 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,578 managers here in the US. It's me, Phil, and Cole. We're 578 00:35:30,594 --> 00:35:34,166 a super small team. We purposely decided not to scale and not to 579 00:35:34,188 --> 00:35:37,874 hire because we decided that we're going to be a lifestyle 580 00:35:37,922 --> 00:35:40,634 business in terms of, like, pick and choose the projects that we want to work 581 00:35:40,672 --> 00:35:44,218 on. And we're very intentional about that. We want to focus on that. But I 582 00:35:44,224 --> 00:35:47,594 think that also does create some stresses in terms 583 00:35:47,632 --> 00:35:51,098 of everything falls on us in terms of 584 00:35:51,264 --> 00:35:55,054 client management to running everything and we need to do that 585 00:35:55,092 --> 00:35:58,878 from there. And so I think sometimes what gets hard is 586 00:35:58,964 --> 00:36:02,318 there are stresses in terms of the 587 00:36:02,484 --> 00:36:05,940 types of projects that we work on, of like, is this a good fit, 588 00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:10,114 are we working on the right types of projects, are we 589 00:36:10,152 --> 00:36:13,906 delivering the quality that we expect and all of these things? And so I 590 00:36:13,928 --> 00:36:17,686 think being able to manage a business that we 591 00:36:17,788 --> 00:36:21,542 are delivering quality for our clients, but that at the same time 592 00:36:21,596 --> 00:36:25,080 we are building it sustainable to want to 593 00:36:25,930 --> 00:36:29,474 be able to run it long term, if that makes sense. Yeah, 594 00:36:29,532 --> 00:36:33,322 definitely longevity and making sure you're also thinking 595 00:36:33,376 --> 00:36:36,874 about the future. So yeah, no, I think that was a great answer. 596 00:36:37,072 --> 00:36:40,634 So last question here, as we're kind of running to the end of our 597 00:36:40,672 --> 00:36:44,014 time, what's one thing that you're excited about for the future or something 598 00:36:44,052 --> 00:36:47,790 that you're ready to get into? It seems like through 599 00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:51,774 talking the last 45 minutes that you always have this hunger, I guess, for 600 00:36:51,812 --> 00:36:55,486 learning. And that seems to be something that has driven 601 00:36:55,518 --> 00:36:59,346 you, but what's something that you're excited about for the future? Yeah, 602 00:36:59,448 --> 00:37:03,186 that's a great question. And I just recently met up 603 00:37:03,208 --> 00:37:06,962 with Phil and Cole in person. We were all in separate places and we work 604 00:37:07,016 --> 00:37:10,726 remote, but we try to get together every three months or so to make sure 605 00:37:10,748 --> 00:37:14,566 we get some in person interactions. And part of that is kind 606 00:37:14,588 --> 00:37:18,358 of discussing like, hey, what's next, what do we want to 607 00:37:18,364 --> 00:37:22,026 work on, what do we want this company to look like? And I think 608 00:37:22,128 --> 00:37:25,786 we're excited to keep delivering mobile and 609 00:37:25,808 --> 00:37:29,546 web projects for our clients that we're doing right now. I think that's kind of 610 00:37:29,568 --> 00:37:32,838 like our bread and butter. And I think we really enjoy working with startups and 611 00:37:32,864 --> 00:37:36,606 small businesses and kind of like helping bring ideas to life. And then 612 00:37:36,628 --> 00:37:39,998 I think in addition to that, being able to try 613 00:37:40,164 --> 00:37:43,742 different ideas and see if there's something that we get super 614 00:37:43,796 --> 00:37:47,186 passionate about that we can also grow in tandem with that. And 615 00:37:47,208 --> 00:37:50,766 so part of that is we're going to continue with the Why Equip 616 00:37:50,798 --> 00:37:54,594 podcast. Pre COVID. We had started a company called 617 00:37:54,632 --> 00:37:58,302 Goworking that was remote trips for entrepreneurs 618 00:37:58,366 --> 00:38:01,974 where we had done three trips pre COVID. Where we had a group of twelve 619 00:38:02,012 --> 00:38:05,622 entrepreneurs. We would travel to a different city, we'd work together in those 620 00:38:05,676 --> 00:38:08,806 places and then kind of explore around in the afternoons and night. And it was 621 00:38:08,828 --> 00:38:12,342 like a great way to meet new people and network with like minded 622 00:38:12,406 --> 00:38:16,006 individuals. Eventually we want to bring that back and I think we're 623 00:38:16,118 --> 00:38:19,898 always tinkering and experimenting with what types of ideas are 624 00:38:19,904 --> 00:38:23,006 we passionate about, how does it fit into founders approach and how does it fit 625 00:38:23,028 --> 00:38:25,982 into the business. And I think we're excited just to keep 626 00:38:26,116 --> 00:38:29,918 experimenting and I think I'm just excited to see 627 00:38:30,084 --> 00:38:33,646 kind of where it. Goes, that sounds really interesting. I really like that 628 00:38:33,668 --> 00:38:37,454 idea. Traveling with entrepreneurs and going somewhere 629 00:38:37,502 --> 00:38:41,140 new to learn and to play at night and 630 00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:44,338 get to meet some new people. I think that's a cool idea. So you'll have 631 00:38:44,344 --> 00:38:47,814 to keep me posted on that if you ever bring that back. Thank you 632 00:38:47,932 --> 00:38:51,394 for joining us today and thank you for being so transparent 633 00:38:51,442 --> 00:38:55,206 about the struggles that also are part of your 634 00:38:55,228 --> 00:38:58,934 journey. I think sometimes it's easy to only talk about the good things, 635 00:38:58,972 --> 00:39:02,490 so I appreciate you talking to us about the struggles as well 636 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,026 and looking forward to what you have in store for the 637 00:39:06,048 --> 00:39:09,626 future. And thank you so much. Thank you. I really 638 00:39:09,648 --> 00:39:13,226 appreciate you having me on and I appreciate your show and what you're doing and 639 00:39:13,328 --> 00:39:16,478 I'm excited to check out more of your episodes too. I love the concept of 640 00:39:16,484 --> 00:39:20,078 what you're doing and yeah, thanks for thinking of me. Yeah, of course. Thank you 641 00:39:20,084 --> 00:39:23,582 so much. Thanks for tuning in and listening to 642 00:39:23,636 --> 00:39:27,342 Working towards our purpose. If you like this episode, please 643 00:39:27,396 --> 00:39:30,622 share it with a friend and don't forget to subscribe for more 644 00:39:30,676 --> 00:39:31,630 episodes. 645 00:39:34,210 --> 00:39:35,380 You our.