Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin,
Rob: and me, Rob,
Kevin: and we've got another episode of Strange New Worlds season three.
We're up to number three.
This is Shuttle to Kenfori, or the one with the moss zombies, Rob.
Rob: Yep.
Let's not beat around the bush, Kevin.
We have got zombies.
Zombies,
Kevin: was your first text to me after watching the show is Zombies, Kevin.
Zombies.
Rob: Yeah, I did,
Kevin: I could not tell through the medium of text whether you were happy
about the zombies or thought the zombies were a tragic departure from
everything that makes Star Trek great.
So that's what we're here to talk about.
Rob: That is what we are here to talk about.
Yeah.
So I, I am quite a fan of the zombie genre.
I'm not obsessed with it, but I do remember one time, many,
many years ago I was, uh.
A group of people I used to improvise with, um, we somehow got tickets
to a swanky like, um, uh, party.
And so it was someone's house party and it was like in St. Kilda in this
really cool house or by down by Brighton overlooking the beach and stuff like that.
So I dunno how we got there, but, uh,
Kevin: Wow.
Fancier than the impro parties I go to these
Rob: W— This was, yeah, w we were, we were out of place.
But one of the members of our team, the great Janelle Koenig,
who now lives in Perth, a wonderful improviser, one of my dearest friends,
um, uh, we were standing around.
She, I think it had something to do with her.
Anyway, there was one point, we're just standing around and talking
about zombie movies, and she stopped.
She went, boys, boys, boys.
Look where we are.
This is not the place to talk about zombie movies, all right.
And we all went.
Kevin: There's a time and
Rob: There's a time and a place and we, we reigned it in.
Kevin: week is Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.
Rob: So yes, I'm, I'm not as, uh, uh, precious about my Star Trek
as, uh, other pundits online.
I haven't seen any, but I'm very fascinated to see what you thought
of our, uh, our zombie episode.
Kevin: I'm surprised Zombies is such a line for people.
'cause you're not the only one I've heard who've gone, They went there.
And I was like, they've gone everywhere else.
I don't know why we thought this was the line they wouldn't cross.
Rob: Strange New worlds has proved itself to be the show that will go to all the
places that other Star Trek shows are seen as You cannot pass that point.
Kevin: Well, yeah, it is the, it is the let's do Star Trek weird show.
That's the entire premise of the show.
That's the Strange and Strange New Worlds.
Rob: Exactly.
Exactly.
Um.
Kevin: So, yes.
I didn't think they were that strange.
And, uh, they even came up with a, a Treknobabble explanation to do
with moss consuming other plants.
And, and, uh, they, they accident, you know, there was a gas leak and
it merged with the local scientists and bimba thank you, ma'am.
It's a, it's a zombie fest.
Rob: It was very, um, uh, The Trek of Us, so moss, uh, fungus, either way.
Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah, I, uh, how did this show work for you?
Rob: For me it was great.
I, I, I, I loved it and especially because, you know, considering we
talked about it a bit, um, last season there was some addressing of, um,
some, some questions that were left up, uh, last season about M'benga.
And this season, you know, this episode, they went, we're, we're,
we are making it black and white.
There is no gray area anymore.
We are answering those questions.
We are letting you know and sure.
Kevin: stabbed him.
Rob: Yeah.
He done it.
He done did it, and he would done do it again.
Kevin: Yeah, I, uh, I mean, every Star Trek, every long time Star Trek
family like me, watches the M'benga scenes and goes, he is such a mild
mannered sidekick to McCoy in TOS.
How does he get there?
I mean, obviously he's not gonna get drummed outta star fleet.
He's not gonna get stabbed to death by a cling on or bitten by a moss zombie.
But you know, he, he, there's clearly an arc here.
This is a, this is a raw and damaged M'benga who seems relatively well
adjusted later on in the original series.
So yeah, how does he find that piece with his past?
Like, that I think is the interesting, um, plot that we're, we're getting unfolded
a, a little at a time here and yeah, I, I think we got more than I was expecting.
They were like, I applaud them.
Just like, okay, let's answer the questions and move on from there, rather
than like continuing to string it out.
Rob: Definitely, definitely.
And I liked there was a lot of, uh, like, like you said, Treksplanation
to make everything work.
This is a planet that nobody goes to in an area that is cut off, that no one
can go into that area, so it is so, and nobody will ever talk about it again.
Literally at the end, there goes, this is off the books, so
let's never mention it again.
So much so that they can go.
We've done zombies once and we can never talk about it again.
Kevin: If anyone asks what happened to our shuttle craft,
just, uh, change the subject.
Rob: Let's talk about fishing.
Let's talk about going fishing.
Um, and, uh, uh, bringing in the Klingons, uh, to deal with this issue
was, uh, a great way to get around it.
But there was also an
Kevin: I enjoy getting some Klingons being Klingony on screen.
Like this feels like they're, they're, they, you know, pulled it back just a
little bit from the strangeness of the Discovery era Klingons honored what
they'd done there, but like made these Klingons a bit more recognizably, Klingon.
Rob: It was definitely an e evolution 'cause it was more of our familiar,
um, Klingon makeup from say, the nineties era that started with, uh, the
motion pitcher back in the seventies.
But their clothing was still quite Discovery esque, like silver, like
Kevin: I mean, yeah, you read, you read the behind the scenes stuff from Discovery
and the intent was always that there are, you know, there are many kinds of
Klingons, there are different houses with different styles and different
looks and different, uh, customs.
And so we got to see some.
Klingon houses and some Klingon types that we had not seen before in Discovery.
But the intent was always that the Klingons we knew well were there as well.
And I feel like we got, we got the lady Klingon who was leading the two very, um,
Rob: The red
Kevin: ordinary Klingons.
Yeah, yeah.
The red shirts of that party were much more, I think, traditionally Klingon to
me, whereas the, the, the, the senior officer of that, uh, that mission was,
I think, closer to what we had seen in Discovery, not just because it was a,
a strong female character, which we had plenty in the Klingons in Discovery,
but, uh, also I thought she was, she was a, a bit more of that, that guttural,
um, a truly alien Klingon rather than the, the Klingon that is like dressed
in armor with a, with a forehead patch.
Rob: Yes.
And especially, uh, to quote, uh, Chekhov in Star Trek five,
she has wonderful muscles.
Um, uh, but yes, I, I particularly liked, uh, you know, that I always love
a good bit of beau, beautiful bit of, uh, Klingon logic and so that M'benga
needed to die because of, you know, because the Klingon, her, her father
was seen as a embarrassment because of dealing with peace, and so because he was
Kevin: You robbed me of the opportunity to murder my father.
Rob: to kill my own
Kevin: You must die.
Rob: And they're going, of course,
Kevin: Of course,
Rob: Klingon's gonna Klingon.
Kevin: I love some backwards alien logic.
That's a great Star Trek trope.
Rob: I loved her
Kevin: I really liked the, uh, Pike M'benga banter as well, like before
the Klingon showed up, and the moss zombies emerged from the shadows.
Just like the talk about fishing and their past together, like, reestablishing the
friendship as that platform for, uh, pike to overlook the, the rather dramatic news
that gets revealed late in the episode.
Um, some nice like quiet character building there that I, I, I think was a
highlight of the episode for me as well.
Rob: It definitely had a lot of variety.
So you had those quiet moments, you had those intense moments when Pike was
outraged about not being told about Batel.
You had, you had the humorous moments of, but it actually worked out to
be quite a beautiful moment as well, like Pike's there going zombies
and M'benga going, these were once scientists and people are there.
You know, let's,
Kevin: Don't call them zombies.
Rob: Let's, let's give them the respect they deserve.
so.
Kevin: They sound like zombies to me!
Rob: Don't use the Zed word if we're going to, if I'm gonna quote Shaun of the Dead.
Um, especially because we haven't had much of Pike and M'Benga since that,
you know, the episode where, you know, M'Benga did, uh, did the stabbing.
Um, it's great to take that moment and especially to give Pike a full episode.
'cause like we've talked about, you know, season three, season
two was, uh, you know, Pike AWOL.
Um, said, let's go, let's just give him a, a mission with M'benga and get
Kevin: Yeah.
A proper away mission with, yeah.
Rob: And especially now, 'cause Anson Mount's, Anson Mount's, uh,
uh, a father for a second time.
So,
Kevin: Yeah.
I hear it's happening again.
Rob: So I've con yeah, they've finished season four from what
I've heard, so hopefully his, uh, time for season five is, uh.
Um, is available.
Um, uh, being a, a new daddy.
But yes, I love their dynamic.
I love their relationship and I love the, the juggling of, of moral.
So, you know, the area is gray and, um, and Pike is not as you know,
but he's never been a, uh, uh, a boy scout when it comes to the Federation
and, and all that type of stuff.
He's very connected to his people.
Kevin: There were, once the, once the zombies came out and the, the
phasers started firing, uh, it, it started to feel a little cheap to me.
Like it felt like their, their vision exceeded their
budget, uh, at a certain point.
The zombies like breaking through the window looked a little,
a little Benny Hill to me.
And, uh.
And yeah, the, the two Startfleet officers hiding in the cabinet and
we just see flashes of red phasers.
And then they're like, you can come out, or, you know, it's
all, all the fighting's over.
It's like, oh yeah, they saved some money there.
There, there it, it was kind of like, let's speed pass all the
expensive stuff, it felt like.
Rob: It was trying to cram a, a, all the genre traits into the Star Trek logic.
So going, there's this whole planet and there's, you know, there's
forest ranges and stuff like that.
Oh.
But everything is in this conti contained one building
Kevin: On the roof of this one
Rob: Yes.
Of they're
Kevin: happens to have, uh.
force field emitters laid out, uh, on it.
That that rooftop scene felt to me like it was conceived as
the set piece of the episode.
Like some writer went, I can see it, you know, drone sweeping drone shot over the
top of a, of a abandoned installation.
There's force field emitters and around it is just this throng of zombies
throwing themselves against it while inside a Klingon duels with M'benga.
Like it must have sounded so epic on paper.
For whatever reason, be it the direction, be it lack of budget, the shots were
all really tight and I just did not have that sense of epic proportions here.
It was all a bit cheap to me in how it turned out on the screen.
Rob: Yes, it's an inspiring idea that came, didn't come
across as completely inspiring.
I definitely get that.
Um, and we're
Kevin: But I, I, you know, I've been a Star Trek fan before they had any
budget to speak of Rob, so I, I was happy to, uh, go along with the story.
Rob: You're the og.
The og.
Um, I love, I love the, I love my myself a Klingon whip battle
whip that I've never seen before.
Kevin: No, I've never seen a Klingon whip before either.
Rob: Um, and, uh, the return, the shut shuttle ship was something that
we saw in Discovery, I believe I, I think I, that looked familiar.
Kevin: Yeah, they did some fun stuff with like, moving the camera
in front of the, the windscreen of the ship in order to make it, to
imply the maneuvers they were doing.
And again, like, yeah, let's save a little money here.
No need to actually see the stars.
Um, and uh, it worked really well.
Like I, I, I was like, oh yeah, I can feel the turn.
So, yeah.
Rob: Um,
Kevin: effective, uh, some effective cost savings here.
Rob: Exactly.
And we haven't even talked about the B plot, where, um, finally
Kevin: a whole other show.
Rob: there's a whole
Kevin: part of the problem, I think as well, is they were like,
they were cramming a lot of story into, into one episode here.
Rob: Yes, they can't give Ortegas a full episode for herself.
But they can give her half an episode where, uh, we can focus on her.
And she really, um, stepped up.
There's, she's going through a lot at the moment and, uh,
Kevin: Yeah, she stepped it up about one eighth impulse power, Rob.
Rob: When she wasn't meant to,
Kevin: No.
Uh, I really liked it.
Uh, I, for me, that was my favorite part of this episode is the, the, the, um, the
cost of breaking the rules, uh, stuff.
Like I, I know modern Star Trek is all about the feelings, but.
Every once in a while, it's nice to be reminded this is a military organization
where people are expected to follow orders
Rob: There is that
Kevin: the procedure of that, the, the chain of command of that.
I really enjoy that stuff.
And, uh, getting to A explore Ortegas is damage with that story, but also
like see how the chain of command works.
See how Una works as a manager who has to like, yank the chain a bit
here and say, uh, not acceptable.
Rob: And how good, how was Rebecca Romijn?
Just
Kevin: She was
Rob: incredible as number one and just goes, give her own ship, um, dealt with.
Kevin: Watching her and La'an do the captain first officer dynamic and like,
you know what, you know what it's like to deal with the Gorn trauma, right?
you're like, oh, okay, I get it.
You know, very, very great to see Una on the one hand, like defend her officer
to La'an, uh, but at the same time discipline her officer when needed.
Rob: And listen to everything.
So Scotty was there, um, because Pelia doesn't do those meetings.
Oh, you didn't contract Carol, Carol Kane for all, for that many episodes.
She, for that
Kevin: No, but it also tells us that like Scotty is now a
effectively a regular, right?
He's no longer a guest
Rob: Yeah, exactly.
Um, and, uh, how Una balances that out.
Um, in Incre, an incredible way of the discipline, the disciplinary,
uh, scene between the two of them.
She's going, oh, I'm in trouble.
This looks serious.
And, and Una never raised a voice.
Always remain calm.
And, but said, these are the facts.
This is clearly what you've done and this is what
Kevin: Look me in my eye and tell me I'm wrong.
Rob: That, that stuff, yeah.
That was the Star Trekkiest of Star Trek stuff.
Kevin: Yeah, and I, I liked it.
I just wish these two A and b plots didn't, uh, clash so badly.
'cause the whole point of the A plot is don't tell
Starfleet we're breaking orders.
And the whole point of the B plot is never break orders.
And the fact that these two things are in one episode makes
that contrast especially violent.
Uh, so I was kind of going, yeah.
Uh, don't break orders in the middle of that mission that Starfleet
Rob: completely breaking orders.
Yeah.
I did like the, uh, the final scene as well with, uh, Batel and
Pike and her line particularly.
Um, I can't worry about how feeling bad for, for hurting
your feelings about her death.
Hurting your
Kevin: tears.
That was so real.
That was like, I don't know if it's cancer allegory or something else, but that
like felt really real that like I, I can barely deal with this, my own feelings
about this, let alone your feelings
Rob: Incredible.
It's so good.
The two of them are dynamic together and uh, I know he is gonna end
up with Melissa George, but um,
Kevin: Yeah, there's a, I mean, there's a little risk we're making
some of our characters unlikable here.
Like Ortegas did not come out particularly well this episode, but I feel like
that's clearly part of the arc. Clearly, you know, a consequence of the trauma
that she faced earlier in the season.
Pike, I think, has a similar thing going that the, the more like he is a strange
blend of flappable and unflappable.
He's, he's like the unflappable captain in the face of the zombies, but then,
you know, threaten his girlfriend with a medical, uh, uh, situation and
he goes completely off the deep end.
On the one hand like that, those, you know, we contain multitudes, and
the fact that that captain has such a strong emotional response to one thing
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: his cool in situations that have to do with his captaincy is an interesting
character trait in its own right.
But, uh, I still like, I, I, I doubt anyone watched this episode
and said, I like Pike more.
I think Pike needs to come back from some aspects of this
Rob: Look, you're right Kevin.
They're playing fast and loose with his flap.
And um, and that's the thing.
I think we've developed enough of a connection with them and enough love
for them that, to see that that shade for both of them, that, that that's
what makes good drama, isn't it, really?
And
Kevin: Yeah, in the third season of a show, we should be ready for that stuff.
It's just that these are such short seasons.
It feels like we're rushing to the meaty stuff before we even really
know these characters very well.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, going back and watching classic episodes on there going, oh,
I'm watching episode 25 of a season.
Oh.
Oh, we didn't know how well we had it back then.
Kevin: Did we both watch episode 25, this week, I wonder?
'Cause that is, uh, the episode number that I brought to talk
about horror in Star Trek.
Rob: Yes, that is our topic for this week.
We could not avoid any of the, you came up with some gallant attempts
of other things that we can focus on, and as soon as you typed in the
word horror, I went, there is, yeah.
Kevin: You get a Klingon stomping a skull and the, you know,
the mucus squirting out of it.
I think we have our topic.
Rob: You have, uh, a leg being grabbed and pulled out and it's been gnawed off.
Come on, we are doing horror.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: So yes, I have got an episode 25 of a certain season for a particular franchise.
Kevin: Oh, wow.
So, uh, I, I wonder if we had a match.
I brought, uh, TNG season one, episode 25.
Rob: Uh, I bought DS9, season five, episode 25.
Empok Nor.
Kevin: Ah, well let's start, uh, let's start with the first one.
So, uh, yeah, TNG, uh, episode 25 of the very first season.
This is the second last episode of the season,
Rob: If any way,
Kevin: bumpy season as we established last week.
Rob: if anything, that whole season is a horror show from what we've.
Kevin: Yeah.
You know, the, the fraying threads must have been at their breaking point here
in the second last episode of the season.
Uh, the episode is Conspiracy and it is the one where, um, a, a conspiracy that is
implied earlier in the season is paid off.
In, in an earlier episode of the, in the season.
Um.
Admiral Quinn and his aide, uh, commander Remic come aboard the Enterprise in
order to inspect and just we're just asking questions and they refrain from
explaining why they have questions about the Enterprise crew, but they
are there apparently, like seeking dissent or seeking, um, evil doers.
Um, there is a lot of implication that people failed at things purposefully,
and then it's like, oh no, I, I, we did not mean to imply anything whatsoever.
And then at the end of the episode when the, the Enterprise crew is cleared of
all wrongdoing, Admiral Quinn confides to Picard that there is a conspiracy
in the highest levels of Starfleet.
Uh, and this is left as a dangling plot thread that is
paid off here in Conspiracy.
Um, and this is, this episode is known for, uh, being the one where they did
stuff that felt like it didn't belong in Star Trek, in the horror department.
There, there is a lot of like, creepy body horror stuff in this.
The, I mean, the short version of the plot is that senior members of Starfleet
have been taken over by parasites.
Those parasites are these little bugs that crawl in your mouth, and yet you
can find someone's infected by the fact that they have a little, a little tail
sticking outta the back of their neck.
Uh.
Picard gets invited to dinner at Starfleet command where all the
commanders are eating bowls of worms, and, uh, Picard is disgusted by this.
And they end up, uh, bringing out the phasers and chasing people down.
And the last one to go is Remmick the assistant to Admiral Quinn, who is
sitting in this, basically a throne with a galactic map behind him.
And, uh, one of the bugs crawls up his arm and goes in his mouth.
And then they've got his, his neck kind of like swelling with the bugs inside him.
And, uh, Picard and Riker kind of grimace and fire full phases at the guy.
The whole top of his body is blown out with chunks of meat and
you see the exposed ribcage with the mummy alien inside going.
And then they both phaser it to death.
End of episode.
And it was like, what the hell just happened?
It really has a feeling of, this one got away from them.
That at a certain point they were like, well, we built the puppet, you know?
There's no, like, it's been built, the money's been spent, we have to do it.
And uh, they just, they just went with it.
Rob: Are we going with
Kevin: let's not speak of that ever again.
Rob: Are we going with the extra ooze or do we No, don't hold back.
We've got an extra canister of ooze.
No, no, no.
Bring it all out.
Kevin: There is a, the, the, the very, like the stinger on the end of the
episode, if you will, is that there is a, they detect a, uh, a signal that was
sent out just before the end of things and the signal, uh, is presumed to be
like the alien summoning reinforcements.
And it's like, oh, it might not be over.
Uh,
Rob: And we never see them
Kevin: never went back there.
I think there was a, there was a gag or two made about it in, uh, Lower Decks,
but other than that, we have never returned to the, um, invading bug hoard.
Rob: That never got a name.
Kevin: No, they never got a name.
Picard asks, like they ask, what is your race?
Where are you from?
And they say, it's not important.
So it's like, yeah, don't worry about the details is very much, uh,
Rob: Look at this puppet we made of a rib cage and a and a oozy slug inside.
Kevin: Yeah.
So I mean, some of the lore around this was they were originally intending,
intending to set this up as the start of the Borg, when the Borg were originally
conceived as like an insectoid race, that there might be a link there.
But by the time they aired this, they decided to drop that and the Borg were
gonna be something else in season two.
Um, the writer of this episode, originally, there was no
parasite or insectoid threat.
It was a conspiracy of senior members of Starfleet to, um, do
away with the Prime Directive.
It was like the prime directive is holding us back.
We could be so much more if we didn't have our hands tied behind our backs
by the Prime Directive and that this is what would be rooted out.
And Gene Roddenberry refused.
He said, there's no way.
The whole point of Star Trek is that humanity has figured this stuff out.
Uh, I do not want members of Starfleet to be doing the wrong thing intentionally.
That is not this show.
And they were like, okay, I guess we gotta do bugs then.
Uh, you can almost imagine them doing a bad job of that out of spite.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it seems a little bit Trill like as well, like an evil version of the Trill
Kevin: Yeah, it is.
Uh, yeah.
If you can imagine the Trill as, as a malevolent, that is what this episode is.
Yeah.
Rob: Well, clearly Gene Roddenberry didn't know about
our, uh, episodes on bad admirals.
Um, so Pity just didn't have that foresight.
He had a lot of vision.
He had a vision, but just not for our podcast, which is,
Kevin: Yes, Admiral Quinn and the other admiralty here are very much bad admirals
by, by the end, due to the invasion.
The, the early stuff, similar to the episode of Strange New Worlds this week.
Like the stuff before the conspiracy is revealed, before the bugs come out and the
phasers start firing, is, uh, enjoyable.
Like, I think the mystery is fun.
There's like lots of, you know, covert messages and trust no ones, and
come back to Starfleet headquarters 'cause something's terribly wrong.
All of that stuff is like delectable, but in the end you do have to pay it off.
And the payoff was disappointing slash shocking and completely
outta character for Star Trek.
So this is one where I think the horror didn't work, and I think they
probably, you know, scared themselves away from doing horror for a while.
Rob: They definitely scared themselves away from returning
to that, uh, species, definitely.
Mm-hmm.
Kevin: So what, uh, what happened in DS9?
Rob: Well, yes, I was thinking about episodes we've already explored.
So we have kind of looked at First Contact.
There's some horror stuff with the Borg in there, which
Kevin: yeah, totally.
Rob: in incredible.
Um, we have talked about, um, uh, the Vidiians in, uh, Voyager, especially like
Faces, which is a very horrific episode.
But, um, I had to go back to, uh, DS9, which is actually episode 24.
I just double checked.
Yeah.
Off by one.
So this is, uh, season five.
So when things are really kicking along with the Dominion War, um, and
this is where, uh, the whole system within Deep Space Nine is kind of
falling apart and, uh, uh, O'Brien and Nog are working on the system and
it just doesn't seem to be working.
Um, so they have to go to, uh, uh.
The sister, uh, uh, space
Kevin: Yeah, they need a spare part for the,
Rob: Yeah.
For the, yeah.
And so they have to go to Empok Nor, which has been, you know,
abandoned and left behind.
But they need to take, uh, a Cardassian who will know about the booby traps and
the DNA of a Cardassian to get on board.
And so they take, oh, it's a Garak episode.
'cause of
Kevin: Ambassador Garak, if you will, uh, according to the, the, the, the
name on the wall in the Starfleet Academy trailer that was glimpsed
Rob: That's right.
Yes.
We, yeah, that's a bit of a diversion.
We've had a little bit of Star Trek news dropping outta Comic-Con.
We had the, the trailer for Star Trek Academy finally drop.
It looks interesting, a lot of, lot of debate about a female
Jem'Hadar, um, the trailer for Khan.
The Audio Adventure.
Kevin: podcast.
Rob: Yes.
Audio adventure
Kevin: wish they'd stop calling it a podcast.
Just audio drama sounds so much better than podcast.
Who would want to put their name to something called a podcast Rob?
Rob: In the world of Star Trek, I hear you!
Um, and of course, uh, puppet Pike with, uh, which we'll talk about at some point.
Um, but yes, so, uh, so taking a band of, uh, yellow shirts that are red
shirts, um, with them, Nog, O'Brien, uh, um, Garak and these, uh, uh, you
know, destined for death, um, officers head off to, uh, Empok Nor and it turns,
Kevin: something that we haven't seen in a while.
Like I don't know if they've dropped that trope deliberately in Strange
New Worlds, but you could imagine a version of this episode where Pike and
M'Benga brought a few red shirts along to get eaten by the zombies, right?
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
We just get the Klingon red shirts and we got not a single.
Kevin: Oh, I loved when it got bitten and she immediately like phases
him while he's still being bitten.
Yeah.
Rob: You know it.
You know that stuff.
As soon as they're infected, kill 'em.
Um, uh, and so what begins then is then hunting down, trying to stop the
booby traps, but them coming onboard, the sh onboard the space station
activates, uh, these chambers with, uh, Cardassian soldiers inside a part of,
like the death squad cult, like the, the highest of the high, the deadliest
of the deadly within the Cardassian um, high com, you know, high echelons.
Uh, one has been killed because of like a, a, a, a paling
system came down and crashed it.
But the other two, not only are they deadly, uh, Cardassians, but they've
been, some gas has been released that makes them even more xenophobic.
Um, and of course, Garak gets caught up in that as well.
So they're hiding in the shadows and it's really effective making
these Cardassians terrifying and the
Kevin: is one of those ones where the, the, the episode on the page
was laughable, but they managed to pull it off through sheer
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: good lighting.
Rob: You know, setting up those archetypes of the characters that are
the red shirts, you see them, you find out a little bit about them before they
die, so it's not just, you know, some guy who shows up, doesn't say a word.
You get to feel some.
Kevin: before you shoot, let me tell you my life story.
Rob: Um, you get the, who's the coward, who's, who's into collecting, who's, uh,
wants to have a fight, uh, who's the calm one, uh, within the arrangement of it.
And then of course, the ultimate twist is that Garak gets,
um, caught up in it as well.
But there's a great banter between Garrick and um, O'Brien all the way through.
'Cause Garrick's there going, oh, you, you know, you were the hero
of a certain battle back in the Cardassian war and you know, you, you
know, led men and you saved them all and you killed so many Cardassians.
Tell me about it.
Kevin: Just like Spock, Garak is at his most interesting when the veil
slips, when the, when you know you see the monster behind the mask.
Rob: And he's just, yeah.
And that's, that's the, you know, the, the, um, the fun stuff that
he doesn't like being trusted.
He's there going, you're taking me along because you trust me.
Well, I don't like that at all.
And, and evil, you know, demented, psychotic, Garak is, uh, a work of art.
Like there's a, there's a moment, it doesn't really pay off that well.
If, if they could have, if again, it's a money thing, like at the end
when O'Brien's, uh, trying to find Garak, 'cause Garak's captured Nog and
Nog's the only one, you know, left.
He comes onto the Promenade section.
So it's great to see the sets, you know, turned into, you know.
Um, desolate versions of what they really are.
But as he walks into the Promenade to confront Garak, the bodies of the
left of the remaining humans, uh, are there, kind of strung up, but you
know, in a cheap sort of PG TV way.
So they're kind of just up against the wall.
And so they're not like hanging from a high rafter like
Kevin: Yeah.
They didn't have that Star Trek II money.
Rob: Yeah.
Um, so they're there and it's still quite horrifying and confronting, but
it's a little bit, eh, it's cheap.
And so finally, you know, um, O'Brien uses his engineering skills to create like a
dummy bomb that blows up in Garak's face.
And they get him, they get saved and rescued.
Um, and then there's a confront.
Oh.
'cause he actually stabs one of the, the, uh, the humans when
he's caught up in his face.
So he kills someone while Yes.
So at the end, while he's being repaired by Bashir, his lover, um, O'Brien comes
in and, uh, you can see Garak is quite embarrassed and says, please pass on
my, uh, my condolences to the dead man's wife because, you know, I don't
think she would want to talk to me.
Um, and he go, you know, if I had been any closer, I, you would've killed me.
And, and O'Brien says, you know, I hope you don't take this the
wrong way, but that was the plan.
Kevin: That was the plan.
Yeah.
Rob: So yes, it does have that horrific element and there are parts
of them going, oh my gosh, okay, this is like, people are expendable.
The darkness is not your friend using all those horror tropes of the monster hidden.
Um, but from a race that we have got to see as more than just monsters.
It's, it's interesting to flip back to that.
Um, we talked about last week with sort of like the Gorn.
We spend a lot of time in Hegemony Part I showing there is range to them.
And then with part two, they just go back to being monsters.
Um, with this they, you, we, they start as monsters.
We find out more about their culture then for this particular episode, um,
they're psycho xenophobic, uh, drug addled, uh, versions of Cardassians
so they can be the monsters.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
I feel like there's a, there's a, a related theme we could explore
sometime of like the, the fellow crew member who is like trusted, like.
They are, they're defanged in a way, and then suddenly things
get a little outta control.
I feel like that happens with Seven of Nine in her Borg, uh, background.
Every once in a while it slips and she's becomes a danger to her, her
own crew, and uh, maybe T'Pol in Enterprise to a certain extent as well.
Rob: it is definitely a case of, it may be a little bit of Odo.
Um,
Kevin: Hmm.
Rob: but yeah, it is that case of the episodic nature of this,
even for Deep Space Nine, which is, you know, revolutionary in its
story arcs and stuff like that.
This is kind of something that's dropped.
And so there, it, it, it isn't referred back to specifically, but there is that
element of just adding color and texture to Garak and his relationships with, with
O'Brien and what he means to everyone.
But there isn't that, in the case of no direct reference to those who died again
and what that actually means for someone who's now back on, oh, he just killed
someone, but he was affected by drugs.
Kevin: Yeah.
The other thing you reminded me of of is the power of turning off the
lights on the sets you already have.
Um.
Rob: Especially back in, especially back in nineties Star Trek, where, you
Kevin: Yeah, but they're not above that now.
Like the, the inter the introduction of the Gorn, the episode where
Hemmer died was basically on, on redress sets of the Enterprise
masquerading as a crashed starship.
Rob: Yes.
Oh, I thought you just meant, uh, turning the lights down.
Kevin: no, no.
Yeah.
It's like we're going to this other place.
It's really scary.
It happens to be the exact same sets that were on every single week.
We just turned off the lights.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, yeah, I thought it was more a case of, well, we need to light
everything really brightly because we are covering everything in, like,
with multiple cameras and we don't have time to shoot it like a movie.
Um, sort of like eighties Doctor Who, where they did multicam
and all the fluorescent lights are on no mood lighting at all.
But, uh, but yes, redress everything.
Turn the lights down and go, Ooh, look at this new location.
Kevin: Yeah, well I love a good creepy Star Trek.
I even one, like, one that, uh, like tiptoes right up to the lines
of horror trope, uh, for a week.
But there is, I think Conspiracy is proof there is a line and you can cross it.
Rob: Yeah, I am kind of intrigued to watch it now, you know, for all
the, for all the wrong reasons, so,
Kevin: It is for, it might be the schlockiest episode of Star Trek: The
Next Generation of them all, and if you just wanna see how, how off track they
can get, it's, it's worth watching.
Rob: It sounds like a trauma film.
It sounds very, you know, you know very much like, you know, that type
of exploitation type of, uh, uh, and on a, on a TV show, what, 1987.
That's wild.
Kevin: I guess they got away with things because there just was not as much
eyeballs on the work as there are today.
Rob: Yeah.
And it, the, they were able to, you know, they had time, they had
seasons to find their feet, which we
Kevin: They had time.
Yeah.
We, I guess you're saying in modern Star Trek we've had
time to work out the formula.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah.
Well,
Kevin: then in TNG, season one, right at the end of a ragged season, they were
probably like, we, we know it sucks, but we just don't have any more time.
Rob: But even at that time, they, they knew they were coming back
for a second season, or they Yeah.
I one assumes.
So, like, you know, with.
What the classic definition of old school Star Trek in that eighties,
nineties era is that, you know, star, you know, um, d Space nine doesn't
get good until say season four.
Um, you know, Next Gen doesn't get good until season.
It has a good episodes here or there still season three.
Yeah.
Um, but nowadays, you know, we barely have a season like 25 episodes, that's,
that's, that's pretty much four seasons.
Yeah.
Kevin: exactly.
Um, before we go this week, I just, I did wanna give you one more chance
to talk about Jim Henson and his Muppets coming to Star Trek because
the, that is a, that is smack d dab in the middle of your Venn diagram, Rob.
Rob: Look it, it, look, we've, we talked about, you know, those one-off type of
tropes when it comes to genre shows.
Like we did not, uh, e uh, enjoy, uh, uh, um, the, the musical
episode of, uh, season two.
And that's become sort of like a common trope within genre shows
and there has become a genre.
Trait to have a puppet episode now when, when it was described?
Yeah.
Well, it's kind of like there, there was a puppet episode
of, uh, Angel, um, where an.
Angel turned into a puppet.
Just Angel.
And that's the last sort of like, fun episode before everything goes to hell.
Um, in the, that's the, that's like the, one of the final four episodes of Angel.
There's, um, during the gas leak year of Community, which is by
default, a, um, a genre show.
In season four, which is notoriously a bad year.
Um, there's a puppet episode, which is horrible.
Um, so to have a puppet episode, or as Akiva Goldsman, I think said
it was, it was a Muppet episode.
And I went, Ooh, that's, um, that's a very particular word.
That's a promise.
And then I saw the puppet and I went, it's a beautiful puppet.
And it's clearly Anson Mount's voice.
And then for them to announce Jim Henson's Creature Shop has
created them, I went, I'm in.
I'm sold.
Kevin: I think the production value will be there.
My, like, my expectations are low just because I don't have
any particular attachment to Jim Henson's Muppets, other than it was
a show I watched while growing up.
But, uh.
I expect the, the quality will be on the screen as far as production value.
And if what you're looking for is the artistry, I'm sure it will be
there in spades and really enjoyable.
I'm a little worried it's gonna be another disposable, like thinly justified, um,
hour of TV in an all too short season.
And I worry what stories it will take us away from being able to tell.
But um, yeah, I'm here for it.
Like, far be it from me to, um.
To
judge Strange New Worlds from being strange.
That is the, that is the mission of the show.
And, you know, bring on the puppets, I say.
If that's what you're trying to do with your show, this sounds
like a great way to do it.
I, I probably look forward to different Star Trek more, but, um,
I look forward to be proving wrong.
I mean, low expectations are the formula for being pleasantly surprised, they say.
Rob: Well, getting in the pedigree that is the Jim Henson company,
they, they are the best in the world at this type of puppetry.
Uh, Jim Henson revolutionized how puppets, uh, conceived in the modern
era and pretty much made the television screen the, the, uh, the puppet stage
that they used to be trapped behind.
And so he really mastered and taught all the people within his company how
to puppeteer for a television screen.
And, um, whether it's out on location that they revolutionized with The Muppet
Movie, um, or, uh, in a studio with, with human actors interacting with puppets.
So it'll be very interesting to see.
I know the quality of the puppetry will be amazing, and I know that sounds like
a very nerdy thing, but you can tell the difference of how a puppet comes alive if
they're done by a high quality puppeteer or just, um, someone who is an enthusiast.
And you've gonna get some of the best puppeteers in the world, you
know, taking on these characters to see how they're represented.
How they move, how they interact with the humans, if it is that type of episode.
They're my, that's my favorite type of puppetry scenes where you have humans
interacting with puppets and how humans are affected by puppets, but also
how puppets are affected by humans.
That's a beautiful world.
Kevin: it looks, I, I look forward to seeing whether that
happens or if it's just like snap.
They're all puppets.
Snap.
They're all human.
Rob: Yeah.
It's gonna, well, we'll have to, it's a, it's a, and another season away.
But, um, I, I've
Kevin: late next year, I guess.
Rob: I've always got my hopes up when the word Jim Henson is mentioned, so yes.
Kevin: Well, uh, looking forward to it.
I can't, one way or the other, I'm in suspense for what it will be.
Rob: Yes.
And I'm in suspense for, for our next episode directed by Mr. Jonathan Frakes.
Kevin: Yeah, the, uh, the mystery hour.
I look forward to seeing it.
All right.
Well, until next week, Rob, I'll see you around the galaxy.
Rob: Take care.
Have a good one.