Hello and welcome to Driven by Excellence, the podcast where we
bring you insightful conversations with some of the brightest minds in
academia and the logistics industry.
I'm your host Hattie and today I'm delighted to introduce Dr. Mohamed Azmat.
Dr. Azmat is an esteemed assistant professor in logistics and supply chain
management and programme director for PG Programmes at Aston University.
He's a recognised expert in disruptive technologies, supply chain
management and logistics innovation.
He's built an impressive career that spans both academia and
ground breaking research.
His contributions to transformative projects like Mobility 4.
0, Logistics 4.
0, and Humanitarian Logistics, to name a few, highlight his
profound understanding of how technology intersects with business.
In today's rapidly evolving world, Azi's insights are not only thought
provoking but also incredibly relevant as we navigate the future
shaped by technological disruption.
Azi, thank you so much for joining us today.
I'm thrilled to dive into your work, learn more about the future of supply
chains, logistics and the transformative power of disruptive technologies.
Let's kick things off, could you share with us a little bit about your
academic and professional journey?
How did you get to where you are today?
Thanks, Hattie for having me today on the show.
It's an absolute pleasure.
That's a question which would take some time to answer.
The journey starts all the way back in Pakistan, where I actually started my
own enterprise after having graduated and did my MBA in supply chain.
So that was the first time I encountered what supply chain is, because supply
you cannot learn about transport and supply chain unless you have
experienced it properly from inside.
So I think that's where the interest actually sparked and in pursuit of better
knowledge and education, I decided that I would Go for top universities in the world
and try to educate myself on the topic.
So I sold my shares in the company after four years of successfully
running it and then went to Austria, Vienna, to do my second
master's in supply chain management.
At that time it was ranked number one in the world and just above MIT and it
was for free, so I was like, why not?
I was lucky enough to get the position there, I was the first ever Pakistani to
have been enrolled in that programme and I think something there hit me really
about the innovation when I was working on my master dissertation, which was
around autonomous vehicles and that was a funny story on its own, because that
was the only topic left for me to choose.
other industry collaborations have already been made and this was the topic
apparently nobody was interested in and I was a little late in picking up a topic.
So that was the one left with me, but I did not regret it.
I think it was a blessing in disguise that I got the opportunity to learn
about future, what future holds for us in many different ways.
So my master dissertation supervisor then said, it would be really nice
idea if you pursued a PhD and I was interested in that anyways, so
I got the funding from a couple of organisations around humanitarian
logistics and some big organisations who are interested in exploring mobility 4.
0 platforms.
So that's where the journey tilted from the master's into the PhD
and then I came to Oxford, that was my first time in Oxford.
I was studying at Oxford University for a year for different PG
programs, got the full scholarship.
So the life basically turned completely.
So a guy who was growing in a big town, big dreams, but really
relevantly less opportunities into completely something different.
Yeah, that was an absolutely fantastic divergence for me.
Four years into the PhD, I published a few papers, I traveled a lot around
the world, met some really interesting people who inspired me to look into
this even further and more importantly, I was one of the pioneers to start
studying and exploring autonomous and electric vehicles and drones in different
setups in Austria and around the world, as well, especially when it comes to
humanitarian logistics, there was not much research done at that time and I
think it's still the case because research takes time, when it comes to that.
So that all combined with some of my interest in academia, I just thought
that I could do a lot better in academia than just going back to the industry,
even though it is more lucrative option.
It pays well.
So I think, I think that's the inspiration around how we can motivate new talent,
find new talent, encourage them, be their mentor and do something good for the
society and community at the same time.
Brought me back to the UK and that's where I joined Aston University back in 2020.
I think it was still the pandemic era going on, if you still
remember what was COVID 19.
So at that time, then I came to UK back and started working there and
ever since I have been in Birmingham at Aston University, I have been working
with many different organisations, universities around the world, educating
people or doing some sorts of projects and other such things, both small
scale, large scale projects and tons of other such opportunities which allow
me to communicate my research findings with a common audience and make them
understand what's happening around the world when it comes to technology.
Wow, Azi, what a journey you've been on, that's truly inspiring
and today you're back in familiar territory, recording in Oxford.
You've mentioned this previously, but I want to touch base on this,
particularly your experience in both teaching and research.
Can you tell us about your role as Assistant Professor in Logistics
and Supply Chain Management and Programme Director of PG
Programmes at Aston University?
Yes, of course.
So I'm currently an assistant professor and a programme director
for two highly grossing modules or programmes, not just modules.
It's MSc in Supply Chain and Engineering Management.
So what we do is basically, it is a role that, involves.
Some level of executive management and of course teaching and research.
So mostly it's around this that we need to maintain and sustain our programmes,
and, we have a huge influx of students from different parts of the world.
So maintaining that diversity is very important.
So we have students, for example, coming in from India, from Pakistan, Bangladesh,
Vietnam, China, Philippines, Europe.
So this huge diversity is beautiful and we just try to maintain our programmes
in a way that basically fulfills all the requirements that these people have,
try to match their backgrounds with what should they be studying and how
we can make them future ready, which is absolutely important and necessary
because we know that whatever we teach them today, it should be able to prepare
them for tomorrow, not just today.
So again, we have a huge focus on innovation and sustainability
and other such things in our programmes, which actually makes
it very distinctive as well.
Other programs, maybe they are focused on certain things, more
traditional elements and our programs are more engineering focused and
managerial focused, implication based, and that's what we look into.
Well, another interesting part of your work is obviously your
main focus is transformative technologies like Mobility 4.
0 and Logistics 4.
0. How do you see these technologies shaping the future of supply
chain management and logistics?
Can you give us any real world examples of how these concepts have been applied?
I've spent eight years of my life trying to find the answer to this thing.
You see, I think the statement that digital is future and
future is digital is true.
Anything that we see today, anything that we experience is somehow connected.
This might not have been the case 10 years ago or something.
I know in my childhood, all we could do was play in the streets
with other fellas and, you know, go for the cycling and whatnot.
But the generation today is not the same.
you would see them, they would have connected devices in their
hands at the age of three already.
Everybody is concerned about what kind of modern and new gadgets
they could bring to the classrooms.
This was not the case when we were growing up.
I was growing up.
I don't know about you though.
So a lot has changed.
My generation, those who are in their mid thirties, they would have seen a lot.
They would have seen no tech childhood to a very tech advanced middle age
right now that we are experiencing.
Cars, which used to have just one radio with the knobs on it and that was
the highest technology that you could see, and now we have the cars that
basically drive themselves, you just sit into them, and I have been in both.
So, a lot has changed and it is changing at a very rapid pace.
So you see that we need to understand going forward, technology is going
to play a pivotal role in our lives, in our businesses, in whatever we do.
So there are two ways now to look into it.
Either we accept it or we be stubborn and we say, okay,
no, my business is way better.
I do not need to incorporate technology or advancements.
I think only fools would choose the second option.
We have seen from the real life, now, we all use Netflix, right?
So Netflix is a household name these days and there has been
in past many such examples that when Netflix was there in 2004 or
something, that the company existed.
But then there was Blockbuster.
And people suggested Blockbuster, think about innovating,
think about digitalising.
They said no, our system works pretty well.
We are one of the biggest movie renting businesses in the world.
Now, where is Blockbuster?
I know.
Long gone.
So, in terms of shaping the future of logistics, and when we talk about these
technologies, how do you see it going?
Can you give us an example of these concepts that you've worked on,
that you've given to businesses, and how have they worked?
So when I was doing my PhD, I was the first one to
introduce the term, Highway 4.
0. So some of my funders were basically the highway concessionaires
and highway authorities, across the Europe and the USA.
They had invested a lot of money in me, so I had to do something for them.
So what we came up with is a roadmap, a transitioning roadmap
for the highway concessioners.
Now to make it more relatable, we all know there is some work going
on in M1 motorway , in the UK.
It has been like, what, three years now that they are trying to make the
M1 as, Industry standard motorway, modernising it, putting tons of
cameras on there, some new technology.
That is exactly what I did in 2017 when I was working with IBTTA, when I was working
with IceCut and other such companies.
So what we did, we developed a model that would automatically communicate with the
vehicles and vehicular technology at that time that existed in the future ones.
Giving them that roadmap basically helped them understand that how
and when they need to invest in what technologies and how they are
going to progress in the future.
You know, giant corporations, they do plan for three years, five years,
15 years and so on because they want to sustain and grow at a steady pace.
That is where this research comes in very handy.
Knowing the unknowns for the future is very important for many businesses
and that is where we designed this entire roadmap for them to understand
if you want to exist 10 years from now, this is what you need to do.
This is how much you need to spend, this is where you're going to spend,
this is what you're going to spend on.
So this transition is all being provided, for example, by me.
Another big thing that I think that has been a major contribution is around
formulating a scenario based analysis system where you can actually use drones
and autonomous vehicles in conjunction to resolve certain immediate threats in
humanitarian logistics and supply chain.
That has been another thing that we have worked on it.
It was picked up by many different organisations and
media outlets and everything.
So, it is still being talked about today.
So it was done in back 2019 or 18, something like that.
Could you talk to us a little about innovations like drones and autonomous
vehicles that are being used to improve disaster relief and humanitarian efforts.
Are there any projects that you've worked on that stand out in your mind?
I can give you a couple of examples, but I think it's even more important
to understand the drones dimension in the commercial logistics, which
is the talk of the town these days.
You know, everybody wants to know if they can use drones or if drones are going
to help their businesses and how we can basically use drones in our daily lives.
But the commercial setup is far from realising the true potential of drone
technology into their setups, especially when it comes to the consumer side.
We're not going to see anywhere in the near future, drones flying
overheads and bringing the parcels or pizza deliveries or stuff like that.
But that's not going to take shape at least for next 50, 60 years.
But knowing that there are certain applications which we can actually use
today, is what fascinates me a lot.
We can think about many applications of certain technologies and some of them
would realise, some of them would never realise and I think this is what might
not realise any time in the future.
But when you talk about humanitarian logistics and supply chain, within the
humanitarian setup, there is not only the application possible immediately, but
that application makes so much more sense.
Why?
The whole idea of humanitarian logistics is not around making profit.
It's about saving lives.
It's about those critical moments that you need to locate someone
or you need to dispatch something and it needs to arrive in moments.
That is where drones come into the play.
Now, Papua New Guinea is one place and I'm sure you would be aware of it.
There's a drone company.
I did a case study on them.
So what they did is they were dispatching blood.
to the hospitals and also for the sputum collection, they were sending out drones.
Now you would be surprised to know that the remote areas where these drones were
being dispatched, earlier vans or trucks or cars were going to collect these
samples or deliver the blood or something.
The journey took around approximately three days to reach those areas.
Why?
There was no road infrastructure.
The terrain and the weather was the biggest blockade and it took
so much longer, required more resources and everything and they
come up with the idea, if we use the drones, how quickly can we do that?
So they turned that three days into 35 minutes.
So that is what makes sense.
Mm hmm.
Absolutely.
You send something, you collect the samples or you deliver the
blood and you're back instantly and you can repeat this.
Yeah, that's amazing.
In your experience, what do you think is the biggest challenge
organisations face when adopting these disruptive technologies?
How can they overcome these hurdles to make these advancements
more accessible and effective?
I think there is no just one answer to that or any one such thing.
It comes down to a couple of things.
First and foremost, it's very important, acceptance.
Now, acceptance usually has a lot of resistance, this is by default.
We humans are sort of fine tuned by default like that.
We do not like change.
We want to keep things as they are.
It translates into our relationships, it translates into how we do
things, it translates into the route that we take to work every day.
We just want to keep things that way.
It took us 15 20 years to enforce people to wear the seatbelts after they
were first introduced in the vehicles.
This acceptance is one of the biggest hindrance.
Now there are certain problems with it.
It cannot, people just can't accept it, especially when they
are feeling threatened that if this technology, this innovation is
going to take their job or place.
So, it is very understandable.
The second thing is about the capability and understanding of, certain things.
A technology that, for example, we talk a lot about blockchain and
IOT and, autonomous vehicles and electric vehicles, all these things.
But, if companies do not understand that this technology is there to help
them or how it can help them, they would never be able to accommodate
that technology into their business.
Funnily, we talk a lot about large organisations.
A lot of the time we even talk, when we give examples or we talk to other
people, we talk about Amazon, we talk about Google, Apple, such companies,
which are huge companies, giant companies, but let's talk about UK.
Of all the companies, what percentage is the SMEs?
So in UK alone, it's around 99.
6%. I mean, like, think about it, 99.
6 % of the businesses are small and medium sized enterprises.
They are not in the position to think about technologies, they are not in
the, they don't have that deep pockets like Google and Amazon and I don't
know, other such companies that, okay, this is a technology, let's try it.
If it works good, if it doesn't work, okay, that was, that was an experiment.
No, for SMEs, unless we actually make SMEs aware of this, improve
their capabilities in accepting these technologies and implementing them given
that they see the application of it.
We cannot expect a utopian society where everybody is connected,
that's not going to happen.
But most of the times, we just talk about the bigger organisations
who can actually afford mistakes and failures and everything.
If something goes wrong with the SME and the technology didn't work as it
was supposed to work, their business would shut down, they would go bankrupt.
For Amazon, that's not going to happen.
So these are some of the issues around acceptance, capability development,
training and stuff like that, which actually becomes the biggest
hindrance for the digital applications and digital technology adoption.
Yeah, and I think obviously you've touched on that, that knowledge
is the most important thing.
You're going to be scared of something if you don't really
know an awful lot about it.
In your opinion, do you think the industry is truly ready
to embrace these innovations?
And what challenges or opportunities do you see in their widespread adoption?
If industry is truly ready.
So I can tell you about some facts that we did a study back in 2020.
It was about understanding how much the market is ready to
accept certain technologies.
Of course, it did not cover all the technologies, but for example, autonomous
vehicles, internet of things, big data.
these kind of things.
Market was showing the signs that they are gearing up to embrace these technologies,
but then something very unexpected happened, COVID, nobody saw that coming.
It changed a lot.
It changed people's mindset.
It changed people, companies, how they respond to certain things.
It made them a little bit more resilient.
At one site, technology helped many companies.
We have seen companies such as Uber Eats or Deliveroo or Ocado and other
companies, their shares and their market percentage skyrocketed during that time.
Just because it allowed their business to scale up and still continue during
the times when it was a lockdown.
But on the other hand, many physical businesses, they saw a steep decline.
They were not so technology driven.
They had to get some sort of funding from the, the government to sustain and we all
know that it all happened in COVID 19.
Now, this should tell us that technology could pave path for you to have a
better and more successful business.
But yet at the same time, if you want your company or your business to be
more resilient and more dependent on the local resources, which we call on
shoring and supply chain terms, we just can't solely rely on the technology.
We need to have multiple channels open at any given time because without resilience,
your company just can't sustain.
We have seen this in the UK as well.
Many things contributed to it.
For example, COVID and then Brexit and there was a huge
deficit of the lorry drivers.
So much so that the letters were sent out to many people with the driving
license that you have a driving license.
Good, Why don't you become a lorry driver?
We will train you.
we'll give you 70, 80, 000 pounds a year, many, many people got those letters.
Some of my friends as well.
I think we need to understand that there are many factors.
which basically affect the macroeconomic factors, microeconomic factors,
technology itself, how reliable, how useful that technology is.
We should remember here that not all technologies are meant to be
implemented and be successful.
We have seen in the past that there are many technologies that come into the play.
There is a lot of hype around it and then they just die.
Products, they just die after one iteration or two iterations.
Nobody wants to buy them, nobody sees the actual or true value in those products
and they just disappear from the market.
This also is connected with somehow, that only three to four out of every
hundred new startups, they survive.
Other ninety six, ninety seven, they die.
So the, the startup success rate is what, two, three percent?
So we have to understand that those startups usually are banking on some sort
of new technology or something like that.
So, so these are the factors that we keep into mind when we are
making decisions for the future, how things gonna evolve in the future.
Otherwise, it's of no use, to be honest.
So to answer the question, do you think we are ready or not?
It's not a simple yes or no answer.
I mean, like, it's impossible to say.
When you say industry, let's say, industry, there are thousands
of different industries.
We can't just generalise one thing that, okay, maybe manufacturing
industry is ready for this technology.
Maybe they are ready for 3D printing.
But they are not ready for, smart glasses yet.Warehousing or logistics industry
is gearing up for the smart glasses.
This was one of the talks that I gave the other day.
So it was a recently published paper where we talked about smart glasses
in warehouses, how it's going to improve the efficiency or overall
efficacy of the entire operation and there is a huge potential.
We saw the improvement that would bring it to 97, 98%.
Up from what, 60 67%?
And that is what businesses would want.
But again, as I said, it is really subject to what industry are we talking about.
But if you talk about generally, yes, to a certain extent, we are ready.
At least we are aware that future is not gonna look exactly the same.
So yes, in the back of our mind, now, whatever that technology might be, we
go through the technology acceptance model for many, many organisations.
So yes, in the back of their mind, they know that the future might look
different, but I just can't tell you if it's a yes or no answer straight
away that this, are we ready or not.
They might want to think they are ready, but in reality, they might not be.
So in terms of the sort of widespread adoption of it, what are the challenges
and opportunities they might face?
So the biggest challenge that organisations face, as I said before,
with the, especially around the SME sector, and now why I focus on SMEs
is because no bigger organisation can work without the input of SMEs.
So if one company, let's suppose four way VW is producing cars, they have
300, 400 suppliers providing some little bits and pieces for that car.
Some of them might be the SMEs.
Not all of them, some of them.
Those SMEs, if they are not digitally enabled, they would not be fitting into
the bigger picture with the VW anymore.
So either VW would have to make them digitally enabled and give some sort of
advanced technology and invest in them or cut them off and find somebody who is.
So the biggest challenge for SMEs or for the organisations is twofold.
One, that they do not have those sort of deep pockets or resources,
you can say that, to adopt or do some sort of R& D into the
innovation and technology adoption.
Second, is capabilities.
If they don't have those capabilities or understanding and knowledge awareness
around those technologies, they would never be able to adopt them because
they don't know something exists.
So, these are some of the challenges which always highlighted in all the researches
that we do, as our students do and we come up with these repetitive answers.
Okay these are the top of the chart.
Then It really specifically depends on industry.
What industry you are choosing, things would be different.
Sustainability is becoming a key focus in supply chain management.
How do you see technologies like electric vehicles or green
logistics contributing to a more sustainable future for the industry?
This could get some bit controversial.
No, I mean, like you see, what is an electric vehicle?
We all want, these days that we have one or we see others driving it.
But that was a trend maybe until start of this year, until the
Chinese BEVs came into the market.
Now, despite it being a growing market, it's actually shrinking.
Electric vehicles are only good if the energy going into them is also
coming from a sustainable source.
If it's not, there is no point of these electric vehicles.
Now, all the research around electric vehicles tells us that yes, the
tailpipe emissions have reduced.
Yes, they do help the environment only if it is coming from a sustainable source,
but in the long run, where does it stand?
We need to understand.
I remember I've had this conversation with a lot of people in many
conferences when we talk about EVs, BEVs, and all these kind of things.
You know, we have to understand, just look at the common trends.
If you are in the market to buy a car now and you want to buy a diesel car, or
you want to buy an electric vehicle, you might have tons of cheaper options today
to buy an electric vehicle at 0 percent APR compared to any diesel vehicle.
If you want to buy a diesel vehicle, you'll have to pay full amount.
There would be a percentage charge on that.
It is not going to be a 0%.
Why, you may ask, is that they are pushing the sale of 0 percent APR
and bringing in the vehicle so cheap?
Because nobody's buying them.
If you look at, there was a very interesting article I
read a couple of months ago.
Tesla's inventory pile is so huge that it can be seen from the space now.
So, this is the current standing of electric vehicle.
What does it tell us?
VW is exiting the market.
They have already shut down their Luton manufacturing plant.
They have already shut down a couple of others in Germany as well.
Porsche decided they're not going to make electric vehicles anymore, and many other
such companies are following the suit.
We have to understand that something is not okay.
We have to understand that maybe we miscalculated something when we were
doing some sort of forecasting and speculations about it and it is now
all translated into numbers as well.
Numbers don't lie.
So we see that China has taken up the huge market share, but China is
coming up with a very alternative approach to the electric vehicles.
So they are building cars which are not battery electric vehicles.
They are electric vehicles, but with an engine inside.
So engine produces electricity and then electricity charges the
battery and the car drives on electricity, these kind of things.
So this is one side of the story.
The other things that we should be focusing on, or maybe more should
have been more focused on, is how we can use the green technologies or
green fuels and make them mainstream.
We have been using biomethane for a very, very long time.
I mean, like, before any of these things existed, we had already found the ways of
using waste and converting it into methane or some sort of gas to form energy.
That is green fuel.
Yeah.
Likewise, green hydrogen, if we are trying to split the water and creating
hydrogen, of course, if that energy to split the water is coming from sun or
wind or something, that's green hydrogen.
That would make so much more sense.
Yeah.
Because we do not need to change the infrastructure for that.
We're just using our resources.
Exactly.
If you think about, for a moment, electric vehicles has been talk of
the town for the last five to eight years since Tesla's introduction and
people went nuts like, we want that and everything, a Tesla bought in 2019 for
around 70, 75, 000 pounds is now available in market for 19 to 20, 000 pounds.
Second hand.
You can imagine the hit a person would take by buying an electric vehicle.
On top of that, any person sitting in that car would always have that range anxiety.
Is my Tesla going to stop on the highway or not?
The biggest factor was around the cost, how much you save on, fuel.
I agree.
You used to save a lot of money until electricity became so expensive.
Now electricity is so expensive that the difference is barely twenty,
thirty pounds in, if you recharge the entire vehicle from a fast charger.
Let's say you go to the shell and then you start filling up your electric vehicle.
It's going to cost you 60, 70 pounds and it's going to cost you 90 to
fill your diesel tank and diesel goes way further than the electric one.
So we need to really, really understand how we define what green is.
We need to understand what are the technologies driving this change
and what future holds for us.
You know that the British government had said that by 2030 they would stop
all sorts of trades in the diesel and petrol vehicles, they backtracked on
that and now they gave a 2035 line and of course it's gonna extend into
2045 or 50 maybe, unless we become, maybe invent, you really quickly some
new type of battery that is going to charge in 10 minutes and everything.
So there is so much that is happening, and changing so quickly, It really
becomes very difficult to suggest how the future might look like with these things.
Yeah.
No, that's really interesting, thank you for sharing that.
For those, just starting their careers in supply chain management and
logistics, what skills do you think are most important for them to develop?
How can they ensure they're well prepared for a future of this field?
I think that the most important aspect is that to understand what
future holds for us when it comes to career advancement in something.
You know, I always, even to my nephews and nieces, they ask me, you know, tell us
what should we study further and all that.
I advise that pick up on certain things programmes that are more computing based
information technology or data analytics, business analytics or, if you don't want
to do that, do Logistics and Supply Chain.
Because these are the two things which are going to exist as long as we exist.
As long as we are buying things, as long as we are going places, these are
the, the fields never going to die.
But for those who are interested in this thing, I think it is very important that
you understand that you need to be good at some sort of number crunching at times,
learning about statistics, having some sort of math or computational background.
That sort of helps in the long run and many professional courses are out there.
So if you don't want to take the track of a complete degree programme, there
are certain qualifications that you can actually look into, offered by CILT, CIPS,
CMI, they are very huge accrediting bodies and they offer certain diplomas, Level 7,
Level 6, diplomas for people, especially those who are already professionals
working in some sort of logistics and supply chain sector, transport, it
would be very beneficial for them.
It is also important because it sort of brings you to the latest trends and
knowledge and you can then implement those and pave path for success, if you
want to have a better position within the company, you want to switch, they
would ask for certain things like this.
Finally, we've talked a lot about the future of the industry and
technology, but I'm interested to know what excites you the most about
the direction of things are going.
Where do you see yourself in the next five to ten years?
Where would I want to see myself?
I can tell you that.
Sitting on the shores of Middle East somewhere, running my consulting
online, I don't have to leave the room.
Something like that.
Sounds science fictional, but yeah, let's see.
No, but I think realistically speaking, there are two questions embedded in that.
Where the market is going and if I'm going to follow the suit and if I'm
going to follow the trends, then I would be very much in contact with the
market and the industry and doing the research, maybe expanding onto that.
Seeing how some of the applications that I have introduced are being implemented
and assessing those in the future.
I'm very fascinated with the idea of creating something and seeing it
through, like it's happening and this is my brainchild, all that kind of stuff.
So I think that's something which I'm very interested in.
But yeah, I've been working simultaneously on my consulting firm as well.
So trying to make, some sort of good connection with the industry and becoming
more independent than being associated with one entity for a longer period of
time is what I think for myself and I think that's what future should look like
for anybody who has any sort of ambitions and motivations and they are self driven
they should really look into expanding and trying to kind of create your own
legacy and that's what is in my mind.
Let's see if it would become a reality one day.
Hopefully.
Thank you so much for being here.
Your insights are truly valuable and having an idea of the future of
supply chains and logistics has been a pleasure to have you on the show.
Thank you very much Hattie, thanks for having me.
Thank you once again for being here and sharing your invaluable
insights with us today.
Your work is truly shaping the future of supply chain and
logistics and it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.
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