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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
AI just sort of levels the playing field for everybody. You sort of have access to all of these resources, you know. Now it sort of equalizes that playing field for everybody where you can solve some of your problems and you can do it in a way that's quick, but you still have to have that critical analysis on top of that.
Narrator:This is the Transform Your Teaching podcast. The Transform Your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio.
Jared:Welcome back to the Transform Your Teaching podcast. My name is Jared Pyles, and with me is Dr. Rob McDole. We are continuing our series on generative AI Applied. We've talked to a number of different faculty and professionals from different universities.
Jared:And this episode, I'm very privileged to have an old Gallia Academy High School from Gallipolis, Ohio alumnus who, right along with me, walked across that stage at Rio Grande University and got a diploma, Dr. Jodie Penrod, who is the CIO at another one of my favorite places in the entire world, Marshall University. Hello, Dr. Penrod.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Hello. Thank you for having me.
Jared:So cool.
Rob:Welcome.
Jared:I'm on cloud nine. I wanna talk about Chad Pennington and Byron Leftwich and and... But I'm...
Jared:Or Randy Moss. I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna talk about growing up in the sticks of Galpolice, Ohio and talking about the tornado that hit the one day at the end of school, our sophomore year. I don't wanna talk about that. Instead, I wanna talk about generative AI.
Jared:So, Rob, you'll have to do majority of the questions because I may end up just going off on a tangent.
Rob:Because we are not Marshall. We are
Jared:not Marshall. We are not, but Jodie is. Jodie is.
Rob:Yeah. So she can do the... We are.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Marshall.
Jared:There you go.
Jared:It worked.
Rob:Alright. Doctor Penrod, it is a pleasure to have you. And I too, like Jared, have spent some time in the great state of West Virginia.
Jared:That's right. Yeah.
Jared:So my wife is from West Virginia, and we also spent five years in Beckley. But anyway, welcome. We are glad to have you here. And what we want to hear from you is your experience with AI and specifically, you know, I know you're probably gonna tell us a little bit about how Marshall's handling it and through your office and how you're approaching it.
Rob:So I guess what philosophy or what approach is Marshall taking?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:For us at Marshall, know, I think you could have one or two different ways of responding. It's try to ignore it and hope that it goes away and that's not what we're doing, right? So, I think we're embracing AI and really trying to pilot initiatives to figure out what works best for us at Marshall University. I think that there's a lot going on out there in the world with different ways and use cases that you can use AI. And I think for us, it's really just finding that sweet spot about what makes sense for us here at Marshall.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Obviously, what works for us at Marshall is not going to be the same that works for another university or institution because we all have different students we serve, we have different technologies in place. So, I think it really just is right now we're in this evaluation mode and sort of introductory mode, trying to figure out what it is that we want to implement or spend our resources on. And you know, with the pace of the way things are changing, that's a complex task, especially because you know, the premise of AI is all about your data. And I mean, all know, you all working in higher ed, having data and integrated systems is a challenge. And so, you know, a lot of times for us, it's not really just focusing on AI, but it's focusing on preparing our foundational infrastructure to support AI.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:I still live in an area where a lot of people don't have access to broadband and resources like that. So, there's some fundamental challenges that I think that we experience being in the location that we are that other universities may not experience because they have a greater access to resources than we do. So, the world in, we're all in Marshall University is all in with AI and trying to figure out ways that we can harness the power of it.
Jared:I thought of a question and then you hinted at it a bit. So I want to dive into it a little bit more. Let's talk about equity and equal access at Marshall. It's I mean, it's inside of Huntington, but Huntington is in a rural area anyway. What has that been like as far as, you know, you've got Ohio State and you've got these bigger schools that where the students come from different backgrounds than those that would come into Marshall, I would assume.
Jared:That could be an assumption I'm making. But what does the equity equal access look like for as far as access to generative AI?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:We're working on our new strategy as Marshall for all, Marshall forever, right? So, we're trying to find ways where we can take a look at all student types, not just the 18 year old coming out of high school. It's creating those opportunities to upscale and to upscale in ways in which they can utilize AI perhaps or whatever it might be or provide alternative hybrid opportunities for learning, things like that. And I really think that that's sort of where we are putting a lot of our efforts in is kind of thinking about that non traditional student. I even hate saying that anymore because what is a traditional student anymore?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:You know, like I, for me, like Jared knows this, just got my doctorate degree as a 41 year old mother of two trying to work a full time job. So, I am not a traditional student in that sense. And so, I think it's just like that, it's just creating that access for people, especially in our area where it's economically challenged, creating access so that they have the ability to pursue education in ways while working a full time job. And, you know, AI certainly plays into that, but I think it'll be more interesting as we go forward and what's to come to create, utilize AI from that personalized learning perspective where, you know, it sort of caters to me in my way of learning. And I think that's going to be really interesting as we go forward.
Jared:Yeah. The adaptability of generative AI is something that could play a key role in that for sure.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:AI just sort of levels the playing field for everybody. You sort of have access to all of these resources. It sort of equalizes that playing field for everybody where you can solve some of your problems and you can do it in a way that's quick, but you still have to have that critical analysis on top of that. So, I think that certainly AI kind of helps us get to more of that even playing field with the access that it provides.
Rob:Sounds like you all have spent a lot of time thinking about access to this technology, but not just this one, Internet as well. I think you're looking for a holistic strategy by the sounds of it. Question to you would be, have you thought or are you all thinking about running AI yourself, running models inside of Marshall's infrastructure without relying on third parties like Microsoft or Amazon or or others?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Well, I I think what we're doing is is, you know, we don't have a lot of resources and certainly don't have a lot of, staff from an IT perspective that can take away, carve away time to work on these innovative new technologies and learn them in a way that they can build them. So what we're doing is we're leveraging existing technologies and then sort of catering that to a Marshall University approach. So for instance, M365 just came out with the co pilot for all the productivity apps, so we're running a pilot to see if we want to invest in that going forward. I mean, it's a pricey thing for higher education. I think it's about $360 a user every year.
Rob:Yep.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:That can certainly add up, especially when you're having to make decisions about upgrading network equipment versus if you want to give somebody a co pilot license, right? So, another thing we're doing is we're examining technologies to build our own Marshall University model that we can hook in to some of our enterprise systems, but then again, you also have to be very careful with that because it does leverage the data. And when you don't have people that understand the data model well, and you don't really have a great data model to begin with, that certainly become a challenge. So, that's where we're working and we're putting our time in is making sure that data model is sound so that when we do introduce a large language model to that data, then we're able to do it in a way that is trained and accurate and not providing data and making interpretations that are false.
Jared:Let's talk policy a bit. I know that the way that Marshall has looked at generative AI is three different options for their faculty: open use, moderate use, and prohibited. Tell me about these options. What made you guys come to those three, and what have you seen as a benefit to providing those?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:I think for us, it's just providing some sort of framework to get us started. Our president has recently, you know, came out with our presidential task force on AI so that we've got the entire institution looking at this. It's led by two of our faculty, one of which is our faculty senate chair. So, I think that that's really important is that it's an academically led conversation because obviously that's, I mean, from a CIO standpoint, we can absolutely put AI in operational efficiency, how we do our business processes to help there. But I think the other major piece of that that has nothing to do with that piece is the teaching and learning side.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:And then eventually, how do you wanna handle using AI in your course? And then how do we expand upon that and actually teach people to use AI to learn? And how to teach people how to use AI to more effectively teach? So I think that all of these things are sort of, as we think about how faculty are teaching, it's just like active learning. It's like a new teaching approach, you know?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:And I think that the students that we're teaching now are literally going to be using AI in their every day whenever they go into their career. So it's important that we embed that thought process and then the ability to critically analyze things with AI. I mean, I don't know about you all, but AI doesn't take out the analysis for me. It just speeds up the work, if that makes sense.
Jared:Sure.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Mean, me, it's a way for me to brain... It's like, I think of it as a brainstorming partner when you don't have a brainstorming partner. But I definitely don't see it as a replacement for how I interpret or analyze things.
Rob:It's cool that the academic side is taking a leadership role in having the conversation.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:So kudos to you for that. I am curious how our faculty and students really responding. What are you hearing?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:So, you know, faculty are like with all things technology, you're going to have your faculty that are all in. And then on the other side of the spectrum, you're going to have people that just don't want to have anything to do with it. And they're going to be like, don't use it. Don't want to teach with it. Know, and then you're going to have everyone else is somewhere in between.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:So, I think in general, the response to AI is just that. It's the same as it is with anything. Like, you know, I've seen it because lot of my research has been in hybrid learning and the adoption of hybrid learning and HyFlex. And you got people that are all in, and then you have people that think that teaching in the classroom physically to the students is the only way you can do it. So, I think overall, we're just going to continue to see that kind of response as we move forward.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:As far as students go, students already... Students use AI. They've been using AI before that we all caught up and realized it was a thing, you know. So, they're using AI and Snapchat, you know, all of the different tools that they're using, and oftentimes they're using it to do their research, you know, papers or if they have a question whatever, which is worrisome, but also enlightening.
Jared:So you've been, and you've had a couple of talks where you've been talking about forecasting the future of where you think that what this impact of generative AI, what impact is it going to have in education? So I want you to pretend you're at these great, huge conferences, and I want you to forecast. What do you think the future of Generative AI is as far as its impact on higher education?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:I think the big impact we're going to see is better student outcomes through personalized learning. So, I think right now largely as we are in higher education, I don't think that we do that well. We don't understand where students are having issues. We don't understand where they may need to have a little bit more support in certain areas. So, I think that we're gonna see a whole host of AI tools that are sort of gonna help with more of that tutor based approach or that personalized learning approach.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:In addition to just finding ways to kind of intervene in a student's life before it gets to the point where, you know, they're dropping out of a course or perhaps dropping out of college. I think ultimately that's what I love to see out of it, is that we have better outcomes and we have better ways to process information that we're getting about our students and to making them more successful career placement where they might be better suited as a career placement based on all of these things. They know all of these things that AI knows about a student, you know. So, know, more to come I think, but I think we're gonna see that and that's why again I'm gonna go back to just the overall importance of institutional data and what we know about our students and connecting those things and making sure they're well integrated so that AI can do those things with the data that we have.
Rob:Wow.
Jared:That's a huge change in infrastructure as far as the educational process alone. If you're talking personalized education to a manner where you've got students coming into a traditional classroom at 20 different levels if you've got 20 different students almost.
Rob:I do wonder how students are going to respond to that, though. I mean, if we say to them, hey, we've got a tutor for you, and it knows all about you. I would just put myself in their shoes. If if I went into one of my programs and I came and they said, we've got this computer that can take all of your data and can have a conversation with you and help you move forward in your education. I'm not sure how I would respond.
Rob:I'm just being honest.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:And I get that. And I will tell you, I think that that's probably more of our generation's thought processes than perhaps, you know, back to that traditional student, the after high school student, because, you know, they're already doing it. They're already putting all of their data in Snapchat AI. They're already... Everything they are doing is on that device that they're carrying and all of the social media platforms that they're using.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:So, that's where I feel like we, at some point, we have to have a conversation about, you know, and something I haven't touched on yet, but it's huge in my mind is just the overall information security harnessing AI in a safe way, and being able to protect your data. So, I think that's going to be probably, you know, after the whole personalized learning aspect, think that's part two of the conversation is how do you educate your users and how do you educate your students on protecting their data and their privacy with using AI?
Rob:Do you think local governments like the West Virginia state legislature is going to step into this conversation, or are they waiting for the the national conversation?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:I think they're already there. I mean, we... Our president and, I don't know if you all know this, but our president, Brad Smith, he was the past CEO of Intuit. And so, he's... And he actually was just appointed chair of the SREB task force on AI, I believe.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:So, you know, they're all in from the state side. I think they're looking at ways in which the state of West Virginia can truly leverage technology and leverage I think, and partnering with the higher education institutions like Marshall and WVU to sort of work together on solving that problem for the state. So, it's been great. I mean, I think that's the nice thing about having a state like West Virginia is that you have people truly aligned on wanting to, you know, really improve the lives of West Virginians and how we're doing our business.
Jared:Yeah. So we like to give our listeners some homework on developing a practice of using generative AI, either in their day to day or they're teaching if someone is looking to explore getting into it. What are some homework that you would give a faculty member who is contemplating generative AI?
Dr. Jodie Penrod:I would say work on prompting and try different ways of prompting. Do some research on prompting, cause they will tell you how you prompt matters in the response that you get. So I would also say try different platforms out. Try ChatGPT OpenAI or if you want, if your institution has a Microsoft contract like we do, can just go to copilot.microsoft.com and use that resource, different resources, but while you do so, keep in mind that you shouldn't be sharing any of your institutional sensitive confidential data because you're essentially, once you put it out there in those tools, especially if they're free tools, you're sharing it with the world at that point. Sure.
Jared:That's good. I actually saw prompt infographics show up on Pinterest. I hadn't opened Pinterest in probably two years. And the first thing that pops up is how to prompt and chat GPT.
Rob:Wow.
Jared:All these different steps you could
Rob:go Pinterest So was like yesterday.
Jared:Apparently, it still exists.
Rob:Is it still around?
Jared:According... to my wife who sends me remodel pictures of ideas for our kitchen, you know, in our living room and stuff, Pinterest does still exist. She may be the only user left, but it still does exist.
Rob:We're... Our generations are gonna be separated by the types of technologies that we've used.
Jared:Yeah.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Yeah.
Jared:By far. By far. Well, thanks so much for coming on, Jodie.
Jared:We do appreciate it.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Yeah, it's great to see you. Thank you guys so much, and keep me posted on on the things you all are doing.
Rob:Sure.
Jared:Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Jodie Penrod:Would love to hear more.
Jared:That was Doctor. Jodie Penrod, the CIO of Marshall University, joining us on today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at CTLPodcastcedarville.edu. Be sure to like subscribe and follow us on all of your favorite podcast platforms.
Jared:And be sure to check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focusblog. Thanks for listening!