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Mel:
First they cast Denzel Washington, like, and they dress him in like a tank top

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Mel:
and suspenders, like, okay, sure, great, I'm in, I'm sold, whatever he wants.

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Mel:
Hi, I'm Mel Killingsworth.

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Chas:
And I'm Chaz Fisher.

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Mel:
And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two emerging filmmakers,

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Mel:
one Australian, one American slash Australian, try to figure out what makes

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Mel:
great screenplays work.

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Chas:
And this is our unexpected but delightful part two of Noivember in December,

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Chas:
which will most definitely, because it's now become a two part,

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Chas:
come out probably January or February.

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Chas:
But doesn't matter. For those of you who didn't listen to the last episode,

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Chas:
go back, listen to our episode

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Chas:
looking at what is noir uh why

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Chas:
it's relevant to every fucking genre of

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Chas:
story not just noir this isn't an episode on like

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Chas:
how to write a film noir this is how what can

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Chas:
we what craft tools can we learn from noir in particular how

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Chas:
to make characters doing despicable things

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Chas:
uh compelling and how to separate

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Chas:
what a film is saying as a

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Chas:
piece of art as against what characters are doing like just representing it

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Chas:
is not endorsement so we did uh we started with the classic of double indemnity

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Chas:
and now in this episode we are flowing through time to show how noir is relevant

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Chas:
in different time periods from the 90s we're doing devil in a blue dress written.

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Mel:
And directed by carl franklin from a novel by walter mosley.

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Chas:
And we're ending with a 2024 film chas comes through with a meld suggestion

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Chas:
but a modern movie uh woman of the hour uh.

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Mel:
Written by ian mcdonald and directed by Anna Kendrick, who is also a co-lead.

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Mel:
So, all right, let's go into Devil in the Blue Dress.

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Excerpts:
Hi, Ezekiel Rollins. For Ezekiel Rollins, L.A. was a world of sunshine and shadows.

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Excerpts:
Howdy, mate. Hey, Ezekiel. How you doing, baby? Take easy on upstairs.

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Excerpts:
Black and white. We got no work here. I'm sorry, fella. My name's not Fella.

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Excerpts:
My name is Ezekiel Rollins.

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Excerpts:
So here you need a job. What kind of work do you do? I'm just looking for somebody. Dafty Monet.

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Excerpts:
Fiancee of Todd Carter. She's been gone two weeks. See, Daphne has a predilection

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Excerpts:
for the company of Negroes.

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Excerpts:
He thought he knew how to play the game. Any of y'all seen a white girl by the name of Dahlia?

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Excerpts:
Delia? Something like that? Her name is Daphne. You can't get none of that tonight.

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Excerpts:
You know it? Until he stepped into a world.

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Chas:
Do you want to summarize what happens in Devil in the Blue Dress?

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Mel:
Oh, boy. So this is an immediate post-World War II film, and we've got this veteran named Easy.

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Mel:
And he has essentially become this kind of like, within the neighborhood,

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Mel:
he's known as a guy who can do you a job, right?

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Mel:
And so he's at his local watering hole, and this private eye comes to him and

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Mel:
is like, I'm looking for this woman.

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Mel:
Help me find this woman. So Isis is like, all right, sure.

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Mel:
So he goes down this rabbit hole of attempting to find this woman.

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Mel:
And he uncovers a bunch of corruption, but he also uncovers connections to his

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Mel:
neighborhood that he was wildly unaware of.

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Mel:
So there's a lot of political implications, but there's also a lot of personal implications.

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Chas:
Yeah. I mean, he's hired to find a woman, Daphne, who wears a very blue dress.

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Mel:
It's not subtle.

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Chas:
Daphne is being pursued by- Multiple people.

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Mel:
Really.

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Chas:
The private detective who hires Easy.

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Chas:
by her fiance, who's also running for mayor, the other person who's running for mayor.

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Chas:
And then I wouldn't say being pursued by, but has a connection with a local

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Chas:
gangster called Frank Green, who, while they're trying to find her,

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Chas:
they nudge Frank Green and Frank retaliates.

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Mel:
And she also has a very close connection, which at first you're kind of unsure

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Mel:
of the origins of, with a woman that EZ's like sleeping with at the beginning.

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Chas:
Yes um so it's.

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Mel:
Really it's hard to sum up.

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Chas:
Sure because there's a lot of red herrings and yeah.

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Mel:
There's a lot of moving parts and also you don't want to give the end away.

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Chas:
Yeah well no in this in drafts era we give the end away um importantly is referenced

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Chas:
early on but don cheedle's character Mouse,

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Chas:
the former friend from the South, Texas, I think they're from.

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Mel:
I'm actually not positive where

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Mel:
Mouse is from. I know they met in the military, where they both served.

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Chas:
And, like, Easy gets asked by his friend, like, you and Mouse killed that guy,

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Chas:
didn't you? Like, right early on.

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Excerpts:
You know, last time I heard these fellas playing the night, he was back in Houston.

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Excerpts:
That night your old buddy Mouse had to pull me up off of your ass.

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Excerpts:
That's the way you remember it. Hell, that's the way it was. Look at him.

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Excerpts:
When you gonna admit that you helped Miles kill old man Navarro Shea?

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Excerpts:
You know, man, come on, get off that. You know, I didn't have nothing to do with that.

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Chas:
And Easy's constantly denying, and he's played by Denzel Washington, right?

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Chas:
Like, you're on board whatever Easy says in Easy's point of view.

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Chas:
But then it becomes very clear, given how casually Mouse kills people.

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Chas:
And that Mouse says to Easy on a number, I think, two occasions.

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Chas:
Like, when Mouse rescues Easy from Frank Green, the gangster,

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Chas:
Mouse shoots Frank Green.

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Chas:
He's like, if you didn't want me to shoot him, why did you call me here?

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Chas:
and then later a friend of easy's a bartender the person who puts him up for

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Chas:
the job in the very beginning he leaves this friend this bartender with mouse

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Chas:
while he's going to go and rescue daphne and mouse kills him he's like oh tying

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Chas:
him up would take too long i just killed him and yeah.

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Mel:
This is clearly what you wanted you just couldn't bring yourself to say it right.

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Chas:
Yeah if you didn't want him dead you wouldn't have left him with me.

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Excerpts:
What happened i had no time to be tying him up easy Look, you just said don't

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Excerpts:
shoot him, right? That's right.

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Excerpts:
Well, I didn't. I just, I choked him.

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Excerpts:
Well, how am I going to help you out if I'm back here fooling around with him

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Excerpts:
now? Easy. Look, if you ain't one to kill, why'd you leave him with me?

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Mel:
Yeah. And this is where I think it becomes, so all of these,

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Mel:
we've talked a little bit about which of these films are adaptations,

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Mel:
which of them are based on a true story. There's some crossover there, et cetera, et cetera.

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Mel:
Long Goodbye was relocated to the 70s, whereas the original source material is not.

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Mel:
But this is where I think it's super, super, super crucial that this film was made in 95.

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Chas:
But it's.

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Mel:
Set in 48 because.

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Chas:
This is.

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Mel:
Immediately post-world war ii and race is crucial and context of immediately

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Mel:
post-war service is crucial and.

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Chas:
Like all.

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Mel:
This is really intertwined and you move it to the 90s and everything changes.

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Chas:
And all of the i mean look it's set in 48 they speak in 40s language and lingo

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Chas:
they wear fedoras there's venetian blinds right the the every every room is filled with smoke and so.

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Mel:
Many old like vintage cars oh.

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Chas:
Yeah beautiful cars so the the style of

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Chas:
noir is laid across the visual style the visual language of noir is very much

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Chas:
a part of this film but so is the world view and the bleakness and the narrative

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Chas:
tropes as well but they do something they'd use it to talk about something very

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Chas:
different in in this film,

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Chas:
There is the power that comes with money, but also the powerlessness that comes

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Chas:
from being African-American in 1948.

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Mel:
Well, class, race, gender, and sexuality are always elements of noir.

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Mel:
All noir deals with that to some extent or another. Like, this is more explicit on some than others.

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Mel:
But, like, even noir that is, quote, like, full of white people,

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Mel:
the characters who are racist and the characters who are not racist,

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Mel:
It's actually a very clear delineation, and it's always a subtle through line.

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Mel:
It's how you signal who the worst guys are.

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Mel:
It's how you signal who is, again, with the Hays Code, it becomes really...

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Mel:
I'm agreeing with your point overall, but I do think that even if you watch

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Mel:
noir, that its primary concern is not racial politics.

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Mel:
It is embedded in the very fabric of it.

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Chas:
And maybe this is me being white Anglo-Saxon English, where race was not as

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Chas:
much a discussion with me growing up.

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Chas:
Like, I grew up in Egypt and India, so it's not like I was unaware of race.

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Chas:
But I feel like the discussion, like the discourse, the social discourse and

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Chas:
awareness around race is much more overt in the U.S. than it is like certainly in Australia.

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Chas:
In Australia, it's like, no one's racist. We don't talk about race. What do you mean? Yeah.

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Mel:
Well, and when noir came of age, race was also like, if you look at a lot of

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Mel:
old noir, it's not just quote unquote African Americans and white Americans.

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Mel:
There's a huge element of Hispanic and specifically Mexican elements.

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Mel:
There's also like Italian and Irish elements.

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Mel:
Like there's all these very, obviously, noir is not an American concept.

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Mel:
However, the four films we're looking at are American.

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Chas:
Sure. I mean, the genre evolved.

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Mel:
Oh, France might have a couple of words. I agree with you. I agree.

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Mel:
I think that the genre came of age very heavily within the US.

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Chas:
Oh, look, if we, you know, if we had done a non-English language film,

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Chas:
we could have done The Samurai, which is, you know, non-more noir.

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Mel:
Yeah, I think specifically Japanese noir to me is just one of the most fascinating

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Mel:
genres of the whole thing. Anyway, we're getting sidetracked.

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Mel:
I'm not, I'm bringing myself back.

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Chas:
So, this film is the first one that actually has voiceover. We have direct access into Easy.

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Mel:
Like non-diegetic voiceover. Yeah.

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Chas:
And it's not at someone.

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Mel:
Yep.

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Chas:
It's like he's talking to himself.

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Mel:
Yeah.

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Chas:
Right? The audience has access to it, but it's not second person.

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Mel:
Right, right, right.

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Chas:
It never says, you know, blah, blah, blah. And like one of the most important

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Chas:
bits of voiceover where like voiceover, we've got whole episodes on voiceover.

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Chas:
Go and look at that. But it gives you that access to a character's motivation

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Chas:
such that you will jump over hurdles, what might otherwise be narrative hurdles.

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Chas:
And there's one where Easy is, he's found Daphne.

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Chas:
Daphne's asked him to drive to a house in the Hollywood Hills.

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Chas:
And he's a black man driving a very fancy car with a white appearing woman.

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Chas:
And I say because that becomes a major plot point.

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Mel:
Right.

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Chas:
In a white neighborhood.

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Mel:
Now we know who Jennifer Beals is.

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Chas:
Yes.

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Mel:
At the time she was not hugely

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Mel:
famous yes so uh the fact that she's played by jennifer beals to tell you like

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Mel:
oh white appearing woman white passing um but like now we understand who she

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Mel:
is but uh yeah she's he's driving this woman and going wait what the fuck yeah

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Mel:
you want me to record scratch what now well.

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Chas:
He says in voiceover i know i'm doing a stupid thing right now.

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Mel:
Yeah and.

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Chas:
That's for me is a such a way an example of how voiceover can make characters

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Chas:
doing things that we don't decisions that we don't buy it helps us buy them

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Chas:
because they're like yeah i know i'm stupid i'm doing it.

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Mel:
Anyway yeah and all these all every single one of these films has someone doing

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Mel:
something that we know is incredibly stupid but for understandable reasons and

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Mel:
they all contextualize it different ways and yeah two of them do it through

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Mel:
via voice for like yeah i get Also,

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Mel:
like, look at her, come on, man. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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Chas:
Now, to reveal,

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Chas:
Because for us to get to the end of the movie and discuss point of view and

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Chas:
characters changing, we have to explain the ending.

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Chas:
So, it turns out that Daphne, her mother was Creole and her father was white.

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Mel:
Right. So, she's Frank's half sibling.

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Chas:
Yes.

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Mel:
And she's white passing and Frank is black. Like, does not pass in any way, shape or form.

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Chas:
So, the whole reason EZ is hired is because the private detective played by Tom Sizemore is white.

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Chas:
And he says, this woman has a predilection for going to places,

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Chas:
to African-American places, places I cannot go, but places you could go EZ, right?

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Chas:
So, that's why EZ gets the job in the first place, is he is a man,

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Chas:
an African-American man, who the bartender Joppy thinks will do this job for

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Chas:
him. We'll find a white woman and dob her into this suspicious looking private investigator.

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Mel:
Yeah. And I think like, and this is the conversation has come back around again

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Mel:
a lot recently with sinners, right?

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Mel:
But I think, and partly maybe because this is an American film and whatever,

199
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Mel:
but like the fact that she goes to these places, these predominantly black bars

200
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Mel:
and speakeasies doesn't at first bump on easy as, oh, well, she's not white

201
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Mel:
because there were a lot of reasons for that.

202
00:13:49,780 --> 00:13:52,980
Mel:
There were a lot of reasons that people wanted to engage, that white people

203
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:54,800
Mel:
did engage in that culture at the time.

204
00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:01,000
Mel:
Yeah, exactly. Like music that literally was not allowed in white only spaces,

205
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,640
Mel:
like, you know, or they were, you know, attempting, like there's always been

206
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Mel:
this sort of subculture, right?

207
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Mel:
Where there are certain people who are accepted into spaces,

208
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Mel:
even though they are not quote unquote of that space.

209
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,040
Mel:
And so easy doesn't really blink in terms of like, oh sure, this white woman's

210
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,760
Mel:
going to all of these places. and if you went they don't know you you would

211
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Mel:
pop out she would notice you etc.

212
00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:26,280
Chas:
There's also very early on a there's

213
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,000
Chas:
you know the the private detective has as much

214
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,720
Chas:
said that she is uh attracted and sleeping with black men right and that she

215
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,320
Chas:
is incredibly good looking and easy is going and asking around asking all the

216
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,220
Chas:
guys saying oh there's this white woman around apparently she's really hot knowing

217
00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:48,660
Chas:
that they would have let in a really hot white woman who's going to sleep with them as well.

218
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:49,240
Mel:
Yeah, of course.

219
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:51,820
Chas:
Like that permission structure is kind of built into it.

220
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Mel:
Inherent motivation.

221
00:14:53,060 --> 00:14:53,300
Chas:
Yeah.

222
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Excerpts:
Ain't never laid eyes on them. That's a shame. See, Daphne has a predilection

223
00:15:00,260 --> 00:15:01,500
Excerpts:
for the company of Negroes.

224
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,160
Excerpts:
She likes jazz and pig's feet and dark meat. Know what I mean?

225
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:08,350
Excerpts:
Pre-election.

226
00:15:10,030 --> 00:15:14,450
Chas:
But turns out that her husband, her fiance, who was running for mayor,

227
00:15:14,590 --> 00:15:18,730
Chas:
as soon as he discovered her African-American heritage, said, I cannot marry you.

228
00:15:18,910 --> 00:15:23,490
Chas:
And it's discovered by his political enemy, the other guy running for mayor.

229
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Chas:
And so he pays her off to go away.

230
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Mel:
The fiance pays her off because, I mean, again, we're spoiling the end.

231
00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:36,370
Mel:
basically to sum up it being discovered that you are a pedophile at the time

232
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Mel:
in the 40s is less damning than.

233
00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:40,450
Chas:
Being discovered.

234
00:15:40,450 --> 00:15:45,110
Mel:
That you are engaging in miscigenation sleeping with a non-white person.

235
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:48,530
Chas:
And you are you reference pedophilia because

236
00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:52,330
Chas:
the political opponent what daphne

237
00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:56,330
Chas:
the devil in the blue dress has found she has found photos of

238
00:15:56,330 --> 00:15:59,990
Chas:
the political opponent molesting children and

239
00:15:59,990 --> 00:16:03,830
Chas:
she intends to use those photos to

240
00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:08,850
Chas:
give them to her husband her fiance sorry so that he'll go oh i can still run

241
00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:13,250
Chas:
i can blackmail my political opponent so that i can still run because she thought

242
00:16:13,250 --> 00:16:16,890
Chas:
that he wouldn't be with her because he couldn't run for mayor and that as soon

243
00:16:16,890 --> 00:16:20,590
Chas:
as he could run for mayor again they would be together and his.

244
00:16:20,590 --> 00:16:25,850
Mel:
Determination is i won't be with you if i can't run for mayor and it's not my

245
00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:29,390
Mel:
fault that society says i can't run for mayor if i'm with you a black woman

246
00:16:29,390 --> 00:16:31,570
Mel:
but also that's just how it is sorry.

247
00:16:31,570 --> 00:16:36,530
Chas:
Baby and there's two major threats so first of all when all of this comes out

248
00:16:36,530 --> 00:16:41,530
Chas:
easy has rescued her he's killed the private detective who was working for the

249
00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:47,330
Chas:
pedophile um see it's sounding convoluted but really it's easily followed when

250
00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:48,490
Chas:
you're watching it like most.

251
00:16:48,490 --> 00:16:51,650
Mel:
Noir but then you try to explain it you're like actually there's a lot of moving parts.

252
00:16:51,650 --> 00:16:56,110
Chas:
But her as much as her fiance does love her he still won't marry her he cannot

253
00:16:56,110 --> 00:16:58,890
Chas:
marry someone of another race which.

254
00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:02,250
Mel:
At the time i mean depending on the state and if you're running for mayor your

255
00:17:02,250 --> 00:17:06,130
Mel:
uh ambitions are higher than state was blanketly illegal.

256
00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:06,370
Chas:
Yeah,

257
00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:11,650
Chas:
So, she's disappointed by that. Now, one of the things, and this is why I've

258
00:17:11,650 --> 00:17:14,410
Chas:
watched all these movies with my wife, and I think this is why she didn't like

259
00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:18,090
Chas:
the film, is that Easy has the photos.

260
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:24,530
Chas:
And what Easy does with those photos is he gives them to Daphne's former fiancé,

261
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:27,630
Chas:
the less evil white mayor.

262
00:17:28,110 --> 00:17:30,850
Chas:
He doesn't do anything evil, but, you know, he's not like...

263
00:17:30,850 --> 00:17:31,450
Mel:
Less bad.

264
00:17:31,610 --> 00:17:32,830
Chas:
Yeah, less bad white mayor.

265
00:17:32,830 --> 00:17:39,410
Mel:
He makes a morally grey choice, but not a legally or like truly perverted choice.

266
00:17:39,850 --> 00:17:43,990
Chas:
He gives him the photos not to reveal that this guy is a pedophile,

267
00:17:44,010 --> 00:17:47,570
Chas:
but just to stop that guy from becoming mayor. Right.

268
00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:54,310
Chas:
And I think Anna had frustration that this film, that both Easy and the film

269
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:57,250
Chas:
were like, well, that guy's just going to go on abusing children.

270
00:17:57,410 --> 00:18:00,890
Chas:
He won't get to be mayor, but he's going to go on abusing children.

271
00:18:00,890 --> 00:18:04,630
Chas:
and i think it's a very noir.

272
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:06,370
Mel:
Ending that.

273
00:18:06,370 --> 00:18:12,510
Chas:
Easy is like publishing those photos would not have done anything.

274
00:18:12,510 --> 00:18:15,470
Mel:
Right nor is very nihilist and pragmatic

275
00:18:15,470 --> 00:18:18,270
Mel:
yeah this would not do anything but get me

276
00:18:18,270 --> 00:18:21,190
Mel:
put in someone else's crosshairs it wouldn't change

277
00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:24,450
Mel:
anything it wouldn't change his actions it

278
00:18:24,450 --> 00:18:27,130
Mel:
wouldn't get him arrested like again we've seen throughout the

279
00:18:27,130 --> 00:18:33,490
Mel:
film his other connections his money his political power his general power like

280
00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:40,930
Mel:
i i believe at the time that we meet him that the boy in his car is his stepson

281
00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:45,690
Mel:
um or like uh if not officially then vaguely his stepson.

282
00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:47,710
Chas:
Oh it's it's an adopted son.

283
00:18:47,710 --> 00:18:49,230
Mel:
Adopted okay we're talking about.

284
00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:50,090
Chas:
The pedophile here not.

285
00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:54,170
Mel:
Easy yeah yeah the pedophile yeah when when easy meets the politician the boy

286
00:18:54,170 --> 00:18:57,110
Mel:
in his car is legally within his care.

287
00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:03,640
Mel:
And it's like, well, that's not going to change because a black man says something. This is 1948.

288
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,840
Mel:
If a black man says something, I'm going to get beat up and nothing will change.

289
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,720
Chas:
And everyone who has become aware of those photos has been killed up until now.

290
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,540
Chas:
There's a guy called Richard McGee.

291
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,060
Chas:
And importantly, Coretta, who is a friend of Easy's.

292
00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:20,320
Mel:
The woman Easy sleeps with.

293
00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:26,460
Chas:
She seduces him, right? Importantly, because his friend is drunk in the next room.

294
00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:32,200
Mel:
Sure. Or, I mean, I think Easy knows what's happening when he helps his drunk

295
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,060
Mel:
friend home. He's like, yeah, well, sure.

296
00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:39,180
Mel:
And then I'm going to, like, load you into the bedroom and go out and fuck your girlfriend. But yes.

297
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,680
Chas:
Putting that to one side, Coretta gets murdered. And this film deliberately

298
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,320
Chas:
does not tell you who murders her.

299
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,720
Chas:
There's two, potentially three different suspects.

300
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:56,740
Chas:
Frank Green, her brother, is one of the suspects that Daphne sent Frank to kill her own friend.

301
00:19:56,740 --> 00:19:59,180
Chas:
because it comes out that Coretta, she had possession of the photos,

302
00:19:59,180 --> 00:20:02,480
Chas:
she was going to sell them back to the pedophile as opposed to,

303
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,340
Chas:
you know, protecting her friend or trying to help her friend.

304
00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:10,780
Chas:
So it could have been Frank Green. It could have been a psycho private investigator

305
00:20:10,780 --> 00:20:17,020
Chas:
on behalf of pedophile, or it could have been Joppy the bartender.

306
00:20:18,030 --> 00:20:21,990
Mel:
I mean, as you're saying this, I'm like, oh, wait, I, again,

307
00:20:22,090 --> 00:20:24,970
Mel:
and I've seen this several times in my head, I'm like, well, I know who did it.

308
00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:29,230
Mel:
But I'm like, okay, but wait, does the film confirm that textually?

309
00:20:29,370 --> 00:20:30,450
Mel:
I think you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

310
00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:34,890
Chas:
It never does. And not only that, the film is fairly adamant it was Joppy.

311
00:20:35,170 --> 00:20:40,290
Chas:
But when he has the conversation with Joppy, Joppy says, who told you that? Daphne?

312
00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:40,810
Mel:
Yeah.

313
00:20:40,810 --> 00:20:44,570
Chas:
There's those lingering things that

314
00:20:44,570 --> 00:20:47,490
Chas:
even though like Daphne in the end she doesn't get

315
00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:50,230
Chas:
to be with her the love of her life she and

316
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:52,950
Chas:
her her half-brother disappear off to

317
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:57,150
Chas:
build a new life somewhere else but her half-brother is a psychotic knife-wielding

318
00:20:57,150 --> 00:21:00,030
Chas:
gangster and Easy has brought

319
00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:03,130
Chas:
his friend Mouse in who as we've mentioned before

320
00:21:03,130 --> 00:21:07,890
Chas:
Easy is directly responsible for several murders and we don't know the pedophile

321
00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:13,830
Chas:
never his up and never comes yep easy is asking at the end of the film am i

322
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:18,270
Chas:
responsible for my friend's murders is what mal is mouse putting that on me

323
00:21:18,270 --> 00:21:21,470
Chas:
actually the thing so easy ask the question of himself am.

324
00:21:21,470 --> 00:21:22,630
Mel:
I enabling him.

325
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:23,730
Chas:
Yeah you.

326
00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:28,330
Mel:
Know what it's interesting until i i guess because i've seen this film a few

327
00:21:28,330 --> 00:21:32,230
Mel:
times but i hadn't watched it with the specificity of analyzing until now and

328
00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:35,410
Mel:
i'm like i forgot how late in the film mouse shows up.

329
00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:36,270
Chas:
Oh yeah like Like.

330
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:39,910
Mel:
We hear about him a lot. And, like, I'm like, wow, we're, like,

331
00:21:40,150 --> 00:21:43,170
Mel:
two-thirds of the way through, and suddenly he's here. And part of that is just,

332
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:44,730
Mel:
I mean, he's Don fucking Cheadle.

333
00:21:44,890 --> 00:21:48,830
Mel:
But, you know, we hear about him a lot, and he looms large over the narrative

334
00:21:48,830 --> 00:21:52,530
Mel:
before he actually has an impact, like, a direct impact.

335
00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:53,270
Chas:
Yeah, yeah.

336
00:21:54,540 --> 00:22:02,000
Chas:
Okay, so, we've already done some exploration of how Easy does transgress in the beginning.

337
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:02,520
Mel:
Oh, yeah.

338
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,900
Chas:
This film does what I applauded Double Indemnity for not doing.

339
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:13,200
Chas:
It says, Easy's just been fired from his job for just standing up for his rights

340
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,520
Chas:
and pointing out that there was racial discrimination, right?

341
00:22:16,580 --> 00:22:18,500
Chas:
Like, it says he's a veteran.

342
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,400
Chas:
It has voiceover, right? So, yeah, this film is making us go,

343
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:31,440
Chas:
oh, Easy is a victim of systems of oppression here that is forcing him to take this job.

344
00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:34,160
Chas:
And he's reluctant about taking the job.

345
00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:36,180
Mel:
He's like- He refuses the call.

346
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:37,640
Chas:
He refuses the call.

347
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:45,500
Excerpts:
I was feeling pretty desperate that evening. In a week, I'd be two months behind on my mortgage.

348
00:22:45,620 --> 00:22:48,980
Excerpts:
And no, sir, I wasn't about to lose my house, but a chill.

349
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:57,010
Chas:
And even when he knows where a woman

350
00:22:57,010 --> 00:23:01,770
Chas:
is and tells the private detective the private detective who's just pulled a

351
00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:07,170
Chas:
gun and almost blown the head off a young man um just random dude says you're

352
00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:13,490
Chas:
not gonna hurt her right easy knows that he's gonna hurt her so there is transgressions

353
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:16,510
Chas:
how do they make easy compelling well first.

354
00:23:16,510 --> 00:23:18,330
Mel:
They cast denzel washington.

355
00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:21,270
Chas:
Like and they dress him in like.

356
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:25,770
Mel:
A tank top and suspenders like okay sure great i'm in i'm sold whatever he wants.

357
00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:30,210
Chas:
They've got voice over so we're with him when he makes every single decision yep.

358
00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:34,150
Mel:
We're in his internal monologue and like like he said even when he's like this

359
00:23:34,150 --> 00:23:36,790
Mel:
is stupid i know it's stupid i get it yep.

360
00:23:36,790 --> 00:23:43,390
Chas:
And they kill coretta so he then kind of gets on the i'm personally invested

361
00:23:43,390 --> 00:23:48,230
Chas:
he is following the leads in and around Daphne but he's actually also trying

362
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:50,710
Chas:
to find out who killed Coretta and.

363
00:23:50,710 --> 00:23:54,190
Mel:
It's complicated right who killed the woman he's sleeping with but also his

364
00:23:54,190 --> 00:23:56,310
Mel:
friend like we go and see his friend.

365
00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:57,550
Chas:
His friend is.

366
00:23:57,550 --> 00:24:03,270
Mel:
Devastated his friend whom he legitimately loves like whatever he did with his

367
00:24:03,270 --> 00:24:05,710
Mel:
girlfriend aside is like broken.

368
00:24:05,710 --> 00:24:06,530
Chas:
Yeah broken.

369
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:12,690
Mel:
Up by I couldn't stop this who could have done this Who would have wanted this?

370
00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:15,490
Mel:
And so there's definitely that element of,

371
00:24:16,590 --> 00:24:19,770
Mel:
I mean, a lot of noir person or clothes involve loyalty to your friends.

372
00:24:19,910 --> 00:24:23,290
Mel:
He's loyal to his friend. His friend is absolutely heartbroken.

373
00:24:23,290 --> 00:24:26,670
Mel:
And he's like, well, despite what I might have done to you, we're friends.

374
00:24:26,770 --> 00:24:30,770
Mel:
That's, that's a side. I want to do this for you.

375
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:35,150
Chas:
Yeah. So I think this one, you know, it is the,

376
00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:39,830
Chas:
the, the whodunit kind of the mystery keeps us going along,

377
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:43,270
Chas:
but it does go to lengths to show easy as

378
00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:51,210
Chas:
lying to himself as committing transgressions as being trapped by the systems

379
00:24:51,210 --> 00:24:55,070
Chas:
but also his own choices right like yeah he's literally trapped by a mortgage

380
00:24:55,070 --> 00:25:00,170
Chas:
like he's the only person in his community who owns his own house and he's like

381
00:25:00,170 --> 00:25:02,250
Chas:
but i gotta pay the mortgage back.

382
00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:06,910
Mel:
To noir being absolutely hilarious there's a whole runner about this guy in

383
00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:08,590
Mel:
the neighborhood who's like digging.

384
00:25:08,590 --> 00:25:13,470
Chas:
Up trees and like essentially And it's so funny.

385
00:25:13,670 --> 00:25:16,610
Mel:
Like it's genuinely hilarious and everything with mouse, like when mouse is

386
00:25:16,610 --> 00:25:19,290
Mel:
drunk and waving a gun around, it's so funny.

387
00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:23,410
Chas:
So, does Easy change in this movie?

388
00:25:23,710 --> 00:25:26,990
Mel:
I think Easy is probably the only character who does not change.

389
00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:31,510
Chas:
Interesting. Because I was going to say, like, it feels like there is a lot

390
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:36,170
Chas:
of, like, he goes from being unemployed and desperate for money.

391
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:38,270
Mel:
Okay, his circumstances change.

392
00:25:38,550 --> 00:25:43,090
Chas:
Yeah, yeah. And this is not, I'm agreeing with your interpretation here, just to be clear.

393
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:43,610
Mel:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

394
00:25:43,690 --> 00:25:46,270
Chas:
But I'm drawing a distinction for our audience.

395
00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:47,490
Mel:
Yeah, sure, okay.

396
00:25:47,530 --> 00:25:49,710
Chas:
He has, a lot of shit happens to him.

397
00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:50,070
Mel:
Yes.

398
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:55,110
Chas:
You know, he's beaten, almost dies a number of times, influences mayoral politics,

399
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:57,790
Chas:
comes away with a ton of money.

400
00:25:58,010 --> 00:26:00,670
Mel:
Changes the course of the whole city slash country.

401
00:26:01,050 --> 00:26:04,990
Chas:
Yeah. And then ends up as a private detective working for himself.

402
00:26:04,990 --> 00:26:07,170
Chas:
He can fund himself. Right.

403
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:12,270
Chas:
But he asked that question at the end of his friend.

404
00:26:12,530 --> 00:26:16,930
Chas:
Can't remember the friend's name, but his irrelevant minor character,

405
00:26:17,330 --> 00:26:18,650
Chas:
you know, 45 on the call sheet.

406
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:21,230
Mel:
The guy playing dominoes at the front.

407
00:26:21,450 --> 00:26:23,430
Chas:
Yeah. So asks him.

408
00:26:23,950 --> 00:26:26,650
Excerpts:
If you got a friend that, you know, does bad things, I mean,

409
00:26:26,790 --> 00:26:31,330
Excerpts:
real bad things and you still keep him as a friend, even though you know what he's like.

410
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:35,040
Excerpts:
I think that's wrong.

411
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,680
Chas:
Am I a bad person?

412
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:39,400
Mel:
Yep.

413
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:42,420
Chas:
And it doesn't answer the question.

414
00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:43,640
Mel:
It doesn't answer it.

415
00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:47,940
Chas:
But also doesn't feel like he would have done anything differently.

416
00:26:48,420 --> 00:26:53,020
Mel:
No. Like, I love that last, and it is, so it is a voiceover.

417
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,840
Mel:
Like, they show him, and then he's like, yeah, and then we sat there and play.

418
00:26:56,940 --> 00:27:00,860
Mel:
And it's a shot that's getting wider and wider and wider and pulling out on

419
00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:03,740
Mel:
the street as you see all these people going about their daily life.

420
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:09,220
Mel:
And it's, you don't see him at all identifiable in the shot by the end.

421
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,060
Mel:
You don't, you can barely figure out which house is his.

422
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,620
Mel:
It's this, I am ineffectual in this system.

423
00:27:18,340 --> 00:27:24,320
Mel:
And my choices, essentially, when I figure out what I did or did not do,

424
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,460
Mel:
they only impact me and I have not had a impact on the greater scheme of things.

425
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,680
Mel:
And I just think it's fantastic. and.

426
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,960
Chas:
Unlike philip marlowe easy is in it for himself he isn't to pay the mortgage.

427
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,560
Mel:
Yeah he's he's surviving he's.

428
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,400
Chas:
Not in it to enforce any kind of code.

429
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,320
Mel:
Yeah he i think he has realized that okay

430
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,340
Mel:
well the system is it doesn't just not serve me

431
00:27:50,340 --> 00:27:53,660
Mel:
it is out to get me and therefore

432
00:27:53,660 --> 00:27:57,680
Mel:
all i could do is survive and

433
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,320
Mel:
and that's what his decisions are based on his decisions to continue to cover

434
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,800
Mel:
up for mouse his decisions to like you said not do anything with those photos

435
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:11,380
Mel:
he knows it would not do any good yeah the most he can do is like let daphne

436
00:28:11,380 --> 00:28:16,500
Mel:
go you know silently into that good night like that's the best he can do he.

437
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:17,840
Chas:
Does rescue her.

438
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,820
Mel:
Yeah yeah no he does yeah right.

439
00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:21,140
Chas:
He doesn't have to.

440
00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:23,220
Mel:
Again that's a personal stakes thing.

441
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:26,400
Chas:
Yeah he he had the photos at that point.

442
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,460
Mel:
But that's a code that he had at the beginning he hasn't changed sure that's

443
00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:33,000
Mel:
a code that he had at the beginning that he's simply holding to.

444
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,440
Chas:
Okay. No, I'm not saying right or wrong.

445
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,320
Chas:
I'm just going like, I'm not sure Easy at the beginning of the film would have

446
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,020
Chas:
risked his life to save a white woman.

447
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,620
Mel:
I think he would have risked his life to save a woman.

448
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:46,980
Chas:
Yeah. Okay.

449
00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:48,120
Mel:
Yeah. Yeah.

450
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:48,740
Chas:
Okay.

451
00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:54,200
Mel:
I think a woman who, so far as he knows, has not done anything overtly wrong

452
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,100
Mel:
or horrifying that he would have done that. Yeah, absolutely.

453
00:28:59,340 --> 00:29:06,560
Chas:
So what is the worldview of the film versus the characters i feel like the film

454
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,580
Chas:
has a pretty aligned worldview with easy yeah.

455
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:13,980
Mel:
The system's fucked like that's the worldview and they're both right.

456
00:29:13,980 --> 00:29:15,100
Chas:
Like.

457
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,400
Mel:
The text bears out that they are both right.

458
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,820
Chas:
Yeah and it allows us i think i think that both

459
00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:24,260
Chas:
the theme of the film and the worldview of

460
00:29:24,260 --> 00:29:27,280
Chas:
easy aligning is part of what is different

461
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,440
Chas:
in this film to i think the other films where i think the world views of

462
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,360
Chas:
marlo and walter are

463
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,180
Chas:
different to what the world views of the film yep but

464
00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:39,880
Chas:
in this one the alignment still serves the

465
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,860
Chas:
same purpose of allowing us to travel along with

466
00:29:42,860 --> 00:29:46,600
Chas:
easy as he's making very dubious yeah decisions he

467
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,780
Chas:
does he does throughout the film like not just he takes the job knowing

468
00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:53,060
Chas:
that he shouldn't knowing that it's illegal right he he

469
00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:56,020
Chas:
gives over the safety of a woman to a psycho

470
00:29:56,020 --> 00:29:59,560
Chas:
he then makes dodgy decisions

471
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,520
Chas:
once he's introduced to this woman uh such as driving in a white neighborhood

472
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:10,620
Chas:
you know getting exposed to murders he is arrested by the cops and says give

473
00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:17,100
Chas:
me a night to sort this out he's willing to pin these murders on other people he doesn't.

474
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:20,520
Mel:
Which is similar to marlo as well like they're They're both sort of arrested.

475
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,220
Mel:
The cops are playing good cop, bad cop, hitting all up beside the head and however,

476
00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:26,890
Mel:
He has a lot more to lose.

477
00:30:27,150 --> 00:30:27,450
Chas:
Oh, yeah.

478
00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:29,770
Mel:
Than Marlo. And they both know it.

479
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:33,890
Chas:
And he brings in Mouse. Like, he's played by Denzel Washington.

480
00:30:33,890 --> 00:30:36,730
Chas:
And you're like, I will go along with whatever you say.

481
00:30:36,850 --> 00:30:41,710
Chas:
But when you just list out his decisions, he's actually a pretty terrible person.

482
00:30:41,710 --> 00:30:45,770
Chas:
But this film makes him compelling through voiceover, through the systems that

483
00:30:45,770 --> 00:30:51,550
Chas:
he's facing, through his desire to get justice for Coretta, which he never does

484
00:30:51,550 --> 00:30:54,790
Chas:
at the end. He sits easy at the end of the film, having never truly got to the

485
00:30:54,790 --> 00:30:55,930
Chas:
bottom of who killed Coretta.

486
00:30:56,370 --> 00:30:59,930
Mel:
I think in Double Indemnity, if you compare this to Double Indemnity,

487
00:31:00,070 --> 00:31:03,790
Mel:
both of their decisions are understandable from a human viewpoint.

488
00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:07,670
Mel:
But you watch Double Indemnity and go, God, you could have easily made the other

489
00:31:07,670 --> 00:31:09,410
Mel:
decision, easily just walked away.

490
00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:14,390
Mel:
And you watch this decision, you go, you are cornered by the system. You are trapped.

491
00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:20,210
Mel:
I don't see a better way out for you. So they do similar things with the character

492
00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:24,250
Mel:
But wildly different things with the system That they're operating within Okay,

493
00:31:25,030 --> 00:31:30,730
Mel:
Speaking of systems and characters Inable to operate within them safely Woman.

494
00:31:30,730 --> 00:31:31,270
Chas:
Of the hour.

495
00:31:31,270 --> 00:31:32,130
Mel:
Woman of the hour.

496
00:31:32,770 --> 00:31:36,790
Excerpts:
It's the dating day Hey can you do me a favor?

497
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:40,350
Excerpts:
Yeah When you get on that stage I just need you to laugh and smile Just over

498
00:31:40,350 --> 00:31:45,890
Excerpts:
and over Yeah sure Hey camera get ready for the snapshot Hi Cheryl,

499
00:31:46,170 --> 00:31:48,510
Excerpts:
bachelor number two Hello, Cheryl.

500
00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:51,910
Excerpts:
And would you please say hello to Cheryl, bachelor number three.

501
00:31:52,150 --> 00:31:54,030
Excerpts:
We're going to have a great time together, Cheryl.

502
00:31:56,590 --> 00:32:01,690
Excerpts:
I don't date much. I don't date at all, actually. But you decided to go to the

503
00:32:01,690 --> 00:32:04,570
Excerpts:
dating game? My agent said it would get me seen.

504
00:32:06,510 --> 00:32:07,590
Excerpts:
Did you feel seen?

505
00:32:10,810 --> 00:32:14,110
Excerpts:
You know, most people don't like to be seen because you have to be comfortable

506
00:32:14,110 --> 00:32:17,770
Excerpts:
with yourself. I never hide who I am.

507
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,620
Chas:
Oh, man. Directed by Anna Kendrick, written by Ian MacDonald.

508
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,240
Chas:
Highlighting why, you know, we've mentioned Billy Wilder. We've mentioned Altman.

509
00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:37,100
Chas:
Not banging on about directors so much, even though noir is so much a directorial genre and medium.

510
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:42,540
Chas:
But it is important because Anna Kendrick is also the primary point of view character.

511
00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:45,160
Chas:
Do you want to summarize this or shall I?

512
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,040
Mel:
Go for it.

513
00:32:46,340 --> 00:32:54,240
Chas:
Okay. Okay, so it's the story of how Rodney Alcala basically got away with murdering

514
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,800
Chas:
what they think is over a hundred people.

515
00:32:57,620 --> 00:33:00,640
Chas:
They mainly show him murdering women, but there's one point definitely in the

516
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,520
Chas:
film where he is considering murdering a pretty young man.

517
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,560
Mel:
If I'm not mistaken, he was convicted for murdering almost exclusively women,

518
00:33:08,740 --> 00:33:11,960
Mel:
but they suspect that several of his victims were men.

519
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,760
Chas:
Well, from the end credit, I think they only convicted him of like murdering

520
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,380
Chas:
seven people and they think he murdered over a hundred.

521
00:33:18,620 --> 00:33:20,160
Mel:
Yeah. They charged him with like

522
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,340
Mel:
11, convicted him of seven and then like estimates are like up to 130.

523
00:33:24,820 --> 00:33:34,080
Chas:
And this movie, its lens, if I may say so, arises from the kind of almost amazing

524
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,260
Chas:
quirk of this story is that Rodney Alcala...

525
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:43,960
Chas:
appeared as a contestant on the dating game game show and was super fucking

526
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:51,060
Chas:
charming and was selected by the woman on the dating show to be her date, right?

527
00:33:51,260 --> 00:33:55,340
Mel:
Well, this lens is that because the society's lens was that he was known as

528
00:33:55,340 --> 00:33:58,720
Mel:
like the dating game killer or the dating game murder or something like that.

529
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,700
Mel:
Yeah, because of that quirk.

530
00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:06,200
Chas:
A lot of the film happens basically, it's intercutting Cheryl,

531
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,180
Chas:
the Anna Kendrick character, the contestant in The Dating Game.

532
00:34:10,340 --> 00:34:17,580
Chas:
It's intercutting her experience on The Dating Game, realizing on a date with

533
00:34:17,580 --> 00:34:22,900
Chas:
Rodney after the show that this man is bad news and managing to escape him.

534
00:34:23,060 --> 00:34:24,600
Chas:
Nothing happens to Cheryl.

535
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:25,800
Mel:
Which is all a true story.

536
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,580
Chas:
But the film opens with him murdering a woman brutally and repeats cutting back

537
00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:33,920
Chas:
to him, murdering different women brutally.

538
00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:37,240
Mel:
And attempting to murder also men.

539
00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:38,140
Chas:
Yes.

540
00:34:38,380 --> 00:34:42,660
Mel:
Well, what's interesting partly about that, right, is a lot of classical noir

541
00:34:42,660 --> 00:34:46,660
Mel:
is not direct about its depiction of brutality.

542
00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:51,340
Mel:
And a lot of neo-noir is. And I think this film walks a really fascinating line

543
00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:54,060
Mel:
where you know exactly how brutal and horrible it is.

544
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,140
Chas:
It's not gory.

545
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:55,580
Mel:
Yeah.

546
00:34:55,660 --> 00:34:57,240
Chas:
It's horrifically bleak.

547
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:57,440
Mel:
Yeah.

548
00:34:57,700 --> 00:35:05,840
Chas:
The opening murder, he strangles her and you're not on her when she's strangled to death.

549
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:06,240
Mel:
Yes.

550
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:14,400
Chas:
But you are on her when he revives her and then drags her off screen, which was just,

551
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:23,700
Chas:
And what is alarming about this film, and it does so well, is it shows Rodney

552
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:29,460
Chas:
being attractive, charismatic, fun, easygoing.

553
00:35:29,820 --> 00:35:34,380
Chas:
Someone who picks up a lot of women and convinces them to drive with him the

554
00:35:34,380 --> 00:35:37,500
Chas:
next day out into the middle of nowhere so he can take photos of them.

555
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:42,280
Chas:
Like he is a, he is someone who you do not expect in a, I guess,

556
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,780
Chas:
a stereotypical or judgmental way to be someone who needs to brutalize people.

557
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:51,040
Chas:
He does not seem to be that way. He makes women feel safe.

558
00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:56,940
Mel:
Exactly. He knows how to act in public. And he even knows how to act one-on-one

559
00:35:56,940 --> 00:35:59,260
Mel:
with people to make them feel safe and to go along.

560
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,440
Mel:
Like he understands how to manipulate societal mores.

561
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,260
Mel:
He understands how to manipulate individuals. And even there are

562
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:08,880
Mel:
multiple times that people are shown to be slightly uncomfortable and they're

563
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:15,980
Mel:
still afraid to say no to him because he knows how to manipulate that politeness

564
00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:23,680
Mel:
that we're all and specifically non male presenting people are conditioned to respond with.

565
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,700
Chas:
And I think the, you know, there's bits on the contest,

566
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,600
Chas:
on the game show where he even says to one of the other bachelors when they're

567
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,060
Chas:
having like an above table or off camera conversation during an ad break,

568
00:36:36,220 --> 00:36:39,520
Chas:
where he's like, I always give the girl, I know how to play this game.

569
00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:42,040
Chas:
Like I know how to say the things I will win.

570
00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:46,040
Chas:
Yeah. He's just so confident in himself. And he does.

571
00:36:46,660 --> 00:36:50,860
Excerpts:
Too small. Seriously. Anything under a C cup? Can't do it.

572
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:59,100
Excerpts:
What about her? What about her? You haven't seen her yet. What if she's petite?

573
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,640
Excerpts:
I'll let her blow me. No, you won't.

574
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,540
Excerpts:
I won't? Why is that?

575
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:13,830
Excerpts:
Because I always get the girl.

576
00:37:15,930 --> 00:37:18,230
Chas:
So tell me why this is noir, Mel.

577
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:22,130
Mel:
Well, it's noir for the same reason that Zodiac and Memories of Murder are noir.

578
00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:28,450
Chas:
Zodiac is like has the stylistic things of noir.

579
00:37:28,890 --> 00:37:35,830
Mel:
Oh, so Woman of the Hour is sunshine noir, which I find like noir is not always dark.

580
00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:36,210
Chas:
Yeah.

581
00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:39,290
Mel:
It's high contrast. like a lot of people think that it

582
00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:42,790
Mel:
needs to be like always happen at night or always

583
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:45,530
Mel:
happen in like dark blues and shadows but

584
00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:48,750
Mel:
a lot of noir like sunshine noir is very bright and

585
00:37:48,750 --> 00:37:51,650
Mel:
will lit but it's high contrast and i do

586
00:37:51,650 --> 00:37:57,550
Mel:
think the cinematography in woman of the hour does do those noir tropes um there's

587
00:37:57,550 --> 00:37:59,890
Mel:
like there's a little bit of lens flow there's a little bit of whatever but

588
00:37:59,890 --> 00:38:05,930
Mel:
a lot of it is high contrast a lot of it is very like hyper stylized in a lot

589
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:09,010
Mel:
of ways and the game show element is quite interesting,

590
00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:12,770
Mel:
but that creeping sensation,

591
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:20,210
Mel:
those long drifting takes, the ways they use landscape and the ways they use,

592
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,720
Mel:
shafts of light and those sorts

593
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,440
Mel:
of things to highlight things is very noir um so again

594
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,020
Mel:
with the style with the tropes um with

595
00:38:30,020 --> 00:38:33,500
Mel:
the system with the fact that every system not

596
00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:36,160
Mel:
just the cops although also the cops but even there's a

597
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,420
Mel:
woman who attempts to go to the game show producers

598
00:38:39,420 --> 00:38:45,440
Mel:
right and is left off there's the fact that like um a lot of the victims are

599
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:52,080
Mel:
people who have no other social safety net you know people whose family and

600
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,740
Mel:
or like support systems are shredded as.

601
00:38:56,740 --> 00:38:59,160
Chas:
The film is presenting them to us.

602
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,460
Mel:
Right as the film is presenting but also again that's a very noir trope i i'm

603
00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:08,040
Mel:
sure like a lot of these are amalgamations right because again like 130,

604
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,380
Mel:
potential people like a lot of these are amalgamations so when

605
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:14,180
Mel:
i'm talking about they're shredded i'm saying like that

606
00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:17,220
Mel:
is a very noir trope right the noir trope of

607
00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:20,760
Mel:
somebody who doesn't have the money or the class ability

608
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:28,960
Mel:
or you know the racial or sexual or gender or whatever presentation to be in

609
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:35,600
Mel:
a safe position in society um and so a lot of that is is presented and i think

610
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,460
Mel:
There are certain scenes here that are just noir to the core,

611
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,920
Mel:
and I find fascinating because if we look at the other films,

612
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,380
Mel:
they're a more heightened type of acting, which I think we do tend to associate with noir, right?

613
00:39:50,460 --> 00:39:54,120
Mel:
Because they're all done in, like, 40s, 70s, and then, yeah,

614
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,320
Mel:
90s, but set in the 40s, so very heightened.

615
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,860
Mel:
And this is a slightly more realistic acting style, and I think it would be

616
00:40:01,860 --> 00:40:04,460
Mel:
a mistake to say because the acting is more realistic.

617
00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:08,600
Mel:
Thing itself is not noir like the nighttime scene where

618
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,900
Mel:
she's given him a fake number and he

619
00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:15,420
Mel:
tries to say oh what about it's a very modern

620
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:18,020
Mel:
more realistic acting style and i

621
00:40:18,020 --> 00:40:21,440
Mel:
think anna kundrick is doing something very interesting with saying this

622
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,720
Mel:
is a time period but this is still happening so

623
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:30,740
Mel:
even though the wardrobe and the sets and the setting is time period of the

624
00:40:30,740 --> 00:40:34,820
Mel:
70s we are drawing a direct parallel to modern times and so we're going to use

625
00:40:34,820 --> 00:40:38,700
Mel:
modern conventions but i think it's a real mistake to say because they're modern

626
00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:41,460
Mel:
acting conventions that therefore it's not noir oh.

627
00:40:41,460 --> 00:40:43,580
Chas:
I'm i asked the question to explore.

628
00:40:43,580 --> 00:40:45,100
Mel:
Because there's.

629
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:50,440
Chas:
No detective there is a femme fatale which is anna kendrick's character.

630
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,680
Mel:
Well there's a home fatale the the home fatale is rodney oh.

631
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,540
Chas:
Okay yeah okay yeah all right fair.

632
00:40:55,540 --> 00:41:01,900
Mel:
Um yeah and i think there's no detective right but i like in a lot of noir there's

633
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:06,800
Mel:
not a detective but there's a person who has and in this film there's actually

634
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,000
Mel:
two and they're both women um and the first is cheryl which is anna kendrick's

635
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,660
Mel:
character and then there's also um the.

636
00:41:13,660 --> 00:41:14,520
Chas:
Woman who survives.

637
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,060
Mel:
Oh okay so there's three i was actually thinking so laura who is also based

638
00:41:20,060 --> 00:41:23,600
Mel:
on a real character who's at the dating game show who's the one who yes.

639
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:24,900
Chas:
The audience member.

640
00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:30,340
Mel:
And she goes to the producers game show she goes to the producer then she goes

641
00:41:30,340 --> 00:41:33,940
Mel:
to the cops there's this wonderful scene she's she's only in the film for maybe

642
00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:40,300
Mel:
like five minutes but she screams at the cops at some point do your fucking job i.

643
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:45,960
Excerpts:
Yeah i did i did file a report in december of last year and i don't know what

644
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,680
Excerpts:
else this man he was on national on television.

645
00:41:49,220 --> 00:41:54,120
Excerpts:
Look, I don't know who you spoke with, all right? I don't know who I spoke with

646
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,220
Excerpts:
either. How many times? You forgot.

647
00:41:58,100 --> 00:41:59,980
Excerpts:
do your fucking job.

648
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:09,080
Mel:
Because they are i mean the system is not doing its job and she's literally,

649
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,620
Mel:
raging at the machine of here's everything you need here's the and again this

650
00:42:14,620 --> 00:42:18,760
Mel:
happened in real life like they let him go multiple times but she is beating

651
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,940
Mel:
her head against the system and the system will not do what it is supposedly

652
00:42:22,940 --> 00:42:24,800
Mel:
but not actually designed to do.

653
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,880
Chas:
You're missing she's got another great scene where she's having a breakdown

654
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,420
Chas:
having seen him in the audience.

655
00:42:31,420 --> 00:42:33,460
Mel:
You're talking about in the car with her boyfriend laura.

656
00:42:33,460 --> 00:42:39,740
Chas:
Yeah she leaves with her boyfriend she tells her boyfriend and her boyfriend essentially tells her.

657
00:42:39,740 --> 00:42:40,500
Mel:
Yep there's.

658
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:42,640
Chas:
Not much we can do you're probably overreacting.

659
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:48,820
Excerpts:
I mean if this guy did what you're implying then wouldn't he be in jail and

660
00:42:48,820 --> 00:42:53,920
Excerpts:
not on a tv show i don't know i um i mean it's a big tv show you don't think

661
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,920
Excerpts:
they've had their contestants,

662
00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:57,840
Excerpts:
I... Maybe it is the guy, right?

663
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,220
Excerpts:
Maybe the police, they looked into him and they cleared him.

664
00:43:02,540 --> 00:43:06,900
Excerpts:
Look, I love you. And I'm really sorry that you lost your friend.

665
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,680
Excerpts:
It must feel like he's around every corner. I can't even imagine,

666
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:14,360
Excerpts:
but... I'm just not sure what you want me to do. Get out.

667
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:22,550
Mel:
Get out yeah they probably investigated him and it's he trusts the system and

668
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:25,050
Mel:
she breaks up with him over it which is great.

669
00:43:25,050 --> 00:43:29,370
Chas:
But it is he is a representation of the system yes so this this whole film this

670
00:43:29,370 --> 00:43:31,530
Chas:
is what makes it noir to me he's.

671
00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:34,750
Mel:
A representation of the citizenry who trusts the system blindly.

672
00:43:34,750 --> 00:43:41,230
Chas:
I think i think the system here in this film is how men view women okay sure

673
00:43:41,230 --> 00:43:44,850
Chas:
right And he is a representation of that in this.

674
00:43:45,090 --> 00:43:48,470
Chas:
And this is, to me, what makes it noir. I think there are some stylistic elements

675
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:54,470
Chas:
that make the film noir. But to me, this worldview is you've got several characters

676
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:59,490
Chas:
trapped by their circumstances, making choices.

677
00:43:59,830 --> 00:44:02,070
Chas:
Like Anna Kendrick makes the choice to go on the dating game.

678
00:44:02,190 --> 00:44:05,290
Chas:
She is forced to by her lack of acting opportunities.

679
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:07,910
Chas:
But she makes the choice, right?

680
00:44:08,070 --> 00:44:10,290
Mel:
And she then- She chooses him.

681
00:44:10,290 --> 00:44:13,490
Chas:
She chooses him. I think part of her transgression, I was trying to think about

682
00:44:13,490 --> 00:44:21,350
Chas:
this, is she actually thinks that being smart is the same as being good, right?

683
00:44:21,490 --> 00:44:25,590
Chas:
She ridicules bachelor number one for being stupid.

684
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:29,990
Excerpts:
Bachelor number one. Einstein said that sitting on a hot stove for a minute

685
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:33,570
Excerpts:
feels like an hour, but sitting next to a nice girl for an hour feels like a minute.

686
00:44:33,730 --> 00:44:36,630
Excerpts:
That was his theory of special relativity. What's yours?

687
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:44,550
Excerpts:
What? I'll come back to you on that.

688
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:48,470
Excerpts:
Wait, hold on. Was that the actual question? When you invite a girl out for

689
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:49,870
Excerpts:
dinner, what do you expect in return?

690
00:44:52,770 --> 00:44:56,550
Excerpts:
I guess that depends on the meal. Are we talking filet mignon or what?

691
00:44:57,110 --> 00:44:58,470
Excerpts:
That's a good question, are we?

692
00:44:59,050 --> 00:45:03,710
Excerpts:
Yeah, sure. I'm a generous guy. Good to know. Are these a scripted question?

693
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:06,810
Excerpts:
Since I'm spending an arm and a leg on dinner, I'd like to think that she could

694
00:45:06,810 --> 00:45:08,430
Excerpts:
at least provide the dessert.

695
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:11,590
Excerpts:
Oh, and what would you order for dessert?

696
00:45:12,450 --> 00:45:15,650
Excerpts:
Oh, you know. No, I don't. Tell me.

697
00:45:17,730 --> 00:45:24,370
Excerpts:
Something hot. Like cherry's flambe? Yeah, yeah, with lots of whipped cream. Sorry, I'm on a diet.

698
00:45:24,590 --> 00:45:27,170
Excerpts:
Bachelor number one, how's that theory of special relativity coming along?

699
00:45:27,650 --> 00:45:32,150
Excerpts:
Hmm? Groovy, keep at it. Bachelor number three, what's the difference between a boy and a man?

700
00:45:33,590 --> 00:45:37,390
Chas:
She dismisses bachelor number two for being a douchebag.

701
00:45:37,390 --> 00:45:38,070
Mel:
But.

702
00:45:38,070 --> 00:45:42,810
Chas:
He's actually the one who whispers on in her ear as he's leaving don't trust that guy.

703
00:45:42,810 --> 00:45:46,290
Mel:
I love that moment because it's it's motivated by

704
00:45:46,290 --> 00:45:49,510
Mel:
him wanting to get one over it's motivated

705
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:54,370
Mel:
by his spite and him being mad he wasn't chosen and him being shown up on national

706
00:45:54,370 --> 00:46:00,170
Mel:
tv however he's right yes doesn't matter what his motives are he's actually

707
00:46:00,170 --> 00:46:03,830
Mel:
seen something that she hasn't because it's something that rodney only reveals

708
00:46:03,830 --> 00:46:08,370
Mel:
to him because he thinks well you can say this to the system and they won't believe you.

709
00:46:09,260 --> 00:46:14,840
Chas:
And so, the game show itself, the cops, the boyfriend, Laura's boyfriend,

710
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,440
Chas:
they're all representations. They're all different flavors and dramatizations.

711
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,480
Mel:
The makeup women. It's women as well. It's not just men.

712
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:29,420
Chas:
Yeah, yeah. Of a system that allowed Rodney Alcala to kill people with impunity

713
00:46:29,420 --> 00:46:32,760
Chas:
for so many years and so many people.

714
00:46:32,940 --> 00:46:35,940
Chas:
And here's the thing. they they they

715
00:46:35,940 --> 00:46:39,520
Chas:
only show throughout the film rodney being

716
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,520
Chas:
either super charming or he

717
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:48,900
Chas:
shifts the actor who plays him does remarkably well phenomenal daniel zavato

718
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:53,320
Chas:
to the point when he shows up at the second murder i thought it was a different

719
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:58,080
Chas:
actor i didn't think it was said because what he's he just changed his face

720
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,760
Chas:
he's in public the second time the first time.

721
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:01,760
Mel:
We see him he's He's alone.

722
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,120
Chas:
In the middle of nowhere. I'm like, this isn't the same guy.

723
00:47:04,260 --> 00:47:06,420
Chas:
His face shape is different. Like just amazing.

724
00:47:06,740 --> 00:47:07,020
Mel:
Phenomenal.

725
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,620
Chas:
But they show him either in psychotic murderer mode or charming mode.

726
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:19,720
Chas:
And it is only at the very end that they show him crying after having raped

727
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:22,120
Chas:
and beaten one woman and he's yet to kill her.

728
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,440
Chas:
But we're fairly confident given everything that we've seen before that he is

729
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,500
Chas:
going to kill her. Yep. But he's crying.

730
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:37,220
Chas:
That moment clearly shows us that he feels trapped, like compelled to murder

731
00:47:37,220 --> 00:47:38,540
Chas:
these people. We never understand.

732
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,720
Chas:
The film never discusses what's his trauma.

733
00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:44,560
Chas:
Why is he doing this? They don't need. But that moment in the end.

734
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:48,120
Mel:
It doesn't feel sorry for him, but it does. It's depiction without endorsement.

735
00:47:48,340 --> 00:47:48,640
Chas:
Yeah.

736
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,340
Mel:
Hey, he exhibited these signs.

737
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,760
Mel:
We don't endorse what he did. We don't say that he had to because he felt trapped,

738
00:47:56,780 --> 00:47:58,060
Mel:
but clearly he did feel trapped.

739
00:47:58,340 --> 00:48:03,620
Chas:
Yeah. And in the end, what the victim who escapes does so, it is an incredible

740
00:48:03,620 --> 00:48:09,580
Chas:
scene that we'll probably accept here, but she's clearly a prior victim of abuse,

741
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:17,840
Chas:
probably sexual abuse, and she knows how to get her abusers to stop abusing her.

742
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,460
Excerpts:
Hey, are you okay?

743
00:48:24,780 --> 00:48:27,480
Excerpts:
I guess things got pretty crazy last night.

744
00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:35,800
Excerpts:
Do you think that you could do me a favor? Do you think that you could not tell anyone about this?

745
00:48:37,460 --> 00:48:37,880
Excerpts:
Please?

746
00:48:39,980 --> 00:48:42,960
Excerpts:
I would just be so fucking embarrassed.

747
00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:48,210
Excerpts:
You know how judgmental people can be.

748
00:48:50,290 --> 00:48:54,170
Mel:
And again, this is very, he was very close to what happened in real life,

749
00:48:54,250 --> 00:48:59,170
Mel:
where basically she says, she tries to convince him, hey, promise you won't tell anyone.

750
00:48:59,790 --> 00:49:05,110
Mel:
I'm ashamed. I'm sad about this. And again, the system is built.

751
00:49:05,110 --> 00:49:11,690
Mel:
We saw this recently with the woman in France whose husband abused her for years and years.

752
00:49:11,830 --> 00:49:16,270
Mel:
And she's come out and said, the thing is, victims are made to feel shame.

753
00:49:16,270 --> 00:49:20,030
Mel:
I should not feel shame he should feel shame and in the

754
00:49:20,030 --> 00:49:25,710
Mel:
scene as well as real life the victim who escaped manipulated him by saying

755
00:49:25,710 --> 00:49:32,690
Mel:
I'm ashamed of this society will blame me please don't tell anyone and he knows

756
00:49:32,690 --> 00:49:39,970
Mel:
she's right he knows that she would feel shame because that's what the system is,

757
00:49:40,610 --> 00:49:41,850
Mel:
puts on her yeah.

758
00:49:41,850 --> 00:49:44,570
Chas:
And she's also treating him with gentleness.

759
00:49:44,570 --> 00:49:49,710
Mel:
Yeah and kindness understanding compassion even yeah like yeah like.

760
00:49:49,710 --> 00:49:55,290
Chas:
Again i'm trying really hard not to empathize with rodney and the film does

761
00:49:55,290 --> 00:50:00,270
Chas:
it so well like you said it's not asking us to feel sorry for him but it does

762
00:50:00,270 --> 00:50:04,850
Chas:
allow us to empathize it's not asking us to sympathize with him.

763
00:50:04,850 --> 00:50:05,270
Mel:
Right but.

764
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:06,950
Chas:
It does allow us to empathize.

765
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:09,930
Mel:
Which i mean to draw the the furthest parallel

766
00:50:09,930 --> 00:50:13,290
Mel:
almost it's fascinating we've come around here right with double indemnity it

767
00:50:13,290 --> 00:50:16,210
Mel:
never says you should do what walter did

768
00:50:16,210 --> 00:50:19,270
Mel:
hey this is what walter did totally

769
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:21,970
Mel:
cool man you see a hottie you can totally murder her

770
00:50:21,970 --> 00:50:26,250
Mel:
husband it's all good never ever ever ever however for

771
00:50:26,250 --> 00:50:29,230
Mel:
a moment it puts you in their shoes and says can you

772
00:50:29,230 --> 00:50:32,890
Mel:
understand why they would do that and if you can can

773
00:50:32,890 --> 00:50:36,810
Mel:
you understand how you would avoid doing the same thing and i

774
00:50:36,810 --> 00:50:39,590
Mel:
think that that is a big that's a big thing in i mean

775
00:50:39,590 --> 00:50:46,890
Mel:
art in general but noir does that a lot noir depicts the absolute worst of humanity

776
00:50:46,890 --> 00:50:54,170
Mel:
and says hey can you understand this most people can understand not every awful

777
00:50:54,170 --> 00:50:59,210
Mel:
thing but a range of awful things great don't do that,

778
00:51:00,180 --> 00:51:00,880
Mel:
you know yeah.

779
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,380
Chas:
And this film i asked us to consider the

780
00:51:04,380 --> 00:51:07,480
Chas:
killer inside me which is a film that i've had complex feelings

781
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,920
Chas:
about i've only watched it once at a at a film festival and i remember thinking

782
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:15,540
Chas:
this is a truly incredible movie and then almost every woman i've spoken to

783
00:51:15,540 --> 00:51:20,000
Chas:
since has gone that is a misogynistic piece of shit and i'm like did i watch

784
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,840
Chas:
a different movie because i didn't think the movie was endorsing his and.

785
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:26,540
Mel:
We don't need to.

786
00:51:26,540 --> 00:51:27,220
Chas:
Get into this debate.

787
00:51:27,220 --> 00:51:31,460
Mel:
We don't need to get into it i will say if you took the first 20 minutes out

788
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:35,140
Mel:
of the movie then maybe but i was so,

789
00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:40,100
Mel:
immediately poisoned by the first 20 minutes of the movie that i was like nope

790
00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:44,160
Mel:
and that tilted everything since but noir right but noir you.

791
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:45,760
Chas:
Got a detective there's voiceover.

792
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,740
Mel:
There's oh it's noir okay because that was the one that i hadn't seen and i

793
00:51:49,740 --> 00:51:53,220
Mel:
watched his prep for this and went yep it's noir i think the way that it plays

794
00:51:53,220 --> 00:51:56,720
Mel:
with noir in the first 20 minutes so fundamentally misunderstand understand

795
00:51:56,720 --> 00:52:00,980
Mel:
so much of noir that i was just like but yes it's noir well.

796
00:52:00,980 --> 00:52:03,860
Chas:
That is something if anyone wants to get uh mel going.

797
00:52:03,860 --> 00:52:07,700
Mel:
Ask her about the killer inside me buy me a beer and ask me about this movie but.

798
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:12,460
Chas:
You then suggested another movie from only two years ago that is from the perspective

799
00:52:12,460 --> 00:52:14,240
Chas:
of a man who murders women.

800
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:14,920
Mel:
Yep right.

801
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,760
Chas:
Much like the killer inside me right like this film is from this perspective

802
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,980
Chas:
is not quite right because all of the murders are from the women's.

803
00:52:23,980 --> 00:52:28,840
Mel:
A lot of the murders are i would argue from a very clearly third party perspective

804
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,480
Mel:
which is fascinating yeah.

805
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,720
Chas:
Almost voyeuristic in one of them very deliberately where we're through windows.

806
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:40,020
Mel:
Yep but it opens with him yes before we even get to cheryl yeah we're within

807
00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:44,780
Mel:
his experience i mean we only see cheryl in a very brief period of time we see

808
00:52:44,780 --> 00:52:48,880
Mel:
him across eight years yeah um there's a lot of different things that help put

809
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:53,040
Mel:
us within his point of view even though the movie is not told from his point of view.

810
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,680
Chas:
Yes. So...

811
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:03,780
Chas:
Hopefully, this film is remarkable to anyone going, wow, if I can spend both

812
00:53:03,780 --> 00:53:08,900
Chas:
the opening and closing of a film and throughout the film with a brutal,

813
00:53:09,220 --> 00:53:11,260
Chas:
misogynistic woman killer.

814
00:53:11,540 --> 00:53:11,840
Mel:
Yep.

815
00:53:12,020 --> 00:53:18,500
Chas:
And it ends with us, again, not sympathizing, but asking us to empathize with him.

816
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,000
Chas:
And still, the film is not endorsing

817
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:27,000
Chas:
it. At no point are you titillated or enjoying the violence at all.

818
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,100
Chas:
but also i think this is such a master

819
00:53:30,100 --> 00:53:32,900
Chas:
class in uh i don't

820
00:53:32,900 --> 00:53:35,960
Chas:
want to be cynical about it because it's one of those things where the the

821
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,480
Chas:
truth is stranger than fiction like the it's

822
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,940
Chas:
almost like the whole dating show element because no

823
00:53:42,940 --> 00:53:45,980
Chas:
one gets murdered in it right is almost

824
00:53:45,980 --> 00:53:49,160
Chas:
a thematic sequence it's almost there to to

825
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,280
Chas:
make us reflect back on ourselves right

826
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:57,440
Chas:
not only was this guy a brutal statistic killer he fucking won game shows by

827
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:02,600
Chas:
being charming right yeah and the movie doesn't open with cheryl and it doesn't

828
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:08,980
Chas:
close with cheryl and cheryl has no impact on rodney alcalor on his arrest no

829
00:54:08,980 --> 00:54:10,960
Chas:
on his murders nothing on.

830
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,820
Mel:
His internal motivations on his feelings no.

831
00:54:13,820 --> 00:54:14,740
Chas:
She manages.

832
00:54:14,740 --> 00:54:16,760
Mel:
To avoid him but she does not change him.

833
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,260
Chas:
And it takes a much younger girl who's been, I'm going to, look,

834
00:54:21,380 --> 00:54:26,600
Chas:
as a survivor of sex abuse myself, I feel like it's very clearly coded that

835
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,960
Chas:
she has come from abuse and knows what she's doing in relation to abusers.

836
00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:35,820
Mel:
I think he chooses people who have clearly come from something and or are running

837
00:54:35,820 --> 00:54:39,460
Mel:
from something like that because it's, that is who society, A,

838
00:54:39,860 --> 00:54:44,260
Mel:
they're already falling between the cracks, but also B, society won't believe.

839
00:54:44,260 --> 00:54:48,840
Mel:
like they're much less likely to believe somebody quote-unquote like that.

840
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:49,740
Chas:
Yeah and.

841
00:54:49,740 --> 00:54:50,860
Mel:
So he targets them.

842
00:54:50,860 --> 00:54:54,360
Chas:
And this film like the others does open with

843
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,600
Chas:
you know like double indemnity opens with

844
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,320
Chas:
we're dealing with a killer we know exactly who the villain

845
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,260
Chas:
is what he does yep with the long goodbye it's opening

846
00:55:03,260 --> 00:55:06,280
Chas:
with the bloody knuckles only devil in the blue

847
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,160
Chas:
dress do we not open with the villains and

848
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,600
Chas:
we open on easy but easy does commit a transgression

849
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,560
Chas:
uh i think it's interesting here how

850
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,720
Chas:
the the film plays cheryl's character

851
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:23,080
Chas:
anna kendrick's character cheryl because only

852
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:28,880
Chas:
at the end of that sequence of that storyline of him appearing on the game show

853
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:34,040
Chas:
are we worried for her safety we're not worried for her safety when she's in

854
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:40,060
Chas:
a live tv studio other than we know that she's gonna pick him.

855
00:55:40,060 --> 00:55:45,340
Mel:
Yeah well we we see her go on another bad date right where it's a date where

856
00:55:45,340 --> 00:55:49,620
Mel:
you're like oh don't sleep with this guy but it's a very different type of thing

857
00:55:49,620 --> 00:55:53,500
Mel:
like which i think is fascinating that the full presents that we see her like

858
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:57,340
Mel:
trying and failing to make it as an actor We see her in an audition with some like, again,

859
00:55:57,540 --> 00:56:01,200
Mel:
douchebags, but we see her in other contexts.

860
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:07,260
Mel:
And yeah, we're like, oh, this is but we're not worried for her until suddenly we are.

861
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:11,850
Chas:
Until she's been so smitten by him. And again, I think,

862
00:56:12,190 --> 00:56:17,470
Chas:
I don't know if the actual episode of The Dating Game that Rodney Alcala appeared

863
00:56:17,470 --> 00:56:26,250
Chas:
on plays like this, but she's told initially by the amazing host played by Tony Hale to dumb it down.

864
00:56:27,260 --> 00:56:32,360
Excerpts:
Hey, can you do me a favor? Yeah. Okay. You're an intelligent girl. Anyone can see that.

865
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,620
Excerpts:
When you get on that stage, though, I don't want you to play so smart.

866
00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:38,100
Excerpts:
All right? The guys are getting intimidated.

867
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,820
Excerpts:
You know, boys, they're babies. Right. So I just, that's right.

868
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,080
Excerpts:
I just need you to laugh and smile just over and over.

869
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,040
Excerpts:
Oh. Can you do that for me? Yeah, sure. I appreciate it. Of course.

870
00:56:47,220 --> 00:56:48,800
Excerpts:
There you go. You have a beautiful smile.

871
00:56:49,460 --> 00:56:54,320
Chas:
At a certain point, she starts to just have fun with it and is smart.

872
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,960
Chas:
and she's tearing down these men's egos.

873
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,220
Chas:
And it's because he knows how to play that game that he wins,

874
00:57:01,260 --> 00:57:04,180
Chas:
that she's attracted to him, interested in him, et cetera.

875
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:11,100
Chas:
But I do think the film enforces her worldview of being smart is being good.

876
00:57:11,260 --> 00:57:12,620
Mel:
Which is what Walter does, right?

877
00:57:12,820 --> 00:57:13,020
Chas:
Yeah.

878
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:20,300
Mel:
Oh, I'm smart. I can beat this. I understand this. I can get away with it. And then he can't.

879
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,760
Mel:
And then she very closely doesn't.

880
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,080
Chas:
And and i think she learns that like i think well.

881
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,000
Mel:
It's why she leaves la right where.

882
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:28,480
Chas:
She does.

883
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:29,340
Mel:
Learn from this.

884
00:57:29,340 --> 00:57:32,220
Chas:
I don't know if it's connected it possibly is connected

885
00:57:32,220 --> 00:57:35,200
Chas:
i mean you you almost got murdered by someone you

886
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,980
Chas:
were on a game show with because you made a poor choice right

887
00:57:37,980 --> 00:57:41,300
Chas:
definitely connected but her having the

888
00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:44,420
Chas:
courage to quit acting to quit trying and

889
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:47,520
Chas:
to leave la it's definitely connected to that experience

890
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,880
Chas:
but i don't think it's like a direct corollary to

891
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,800
Chas:
her going oh it's not

892
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:01,240
Chas:
like her going i'm gonna go and be with people from you know let's say a working

893
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,560
Chas:
class or agricultural background i'm gonna stop judging people intellectually

894
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,660
Chas:
it wasn't like sure that connected but she definitely changes from this experience

895
00:58:09,660 --> 00:58:12,380
Chas:
uh does rodney change right,

896
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,380
Chas:
No. He lets one go.

897
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,740
Mel:
Well, no. Yes. Okay.

898
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,280
Chas:
No, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I agree.

899
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,600
Mel:
He doesn't permanently let her go, right? Like, the idea is that he...

900
00:58:27,540 --> 00:58:29,380
Mel:
Yes, he says, okay, let's go back.

901
00:58:29,620 --> 00:58:31,600
Chas:
He doesn't murder her. He unties her.

902
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:36,900
Mel:
Sure. They get in the car. It's a wonderfully filmed sequence where they stop

903
00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:40,520
Mel:
at a four-way stop, and there's some dude in a pickup truck,

904
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:46,300
Mel:
and he's watching her to see if she tries to signal and ask for help to this guy.

905
00:58:46,460 --> 00:58:51,020
Mel:
And then he stops at a, like, a quickie mart or, like, a roadside place and

906
00:58:51,020 --> 00:58:52,040
Mel:
says, do you want anything?

907
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:57,740
Mel:
And the clear indication is that he has let his guard down enough so that he

908
00:58:57,740 --> 00:58:59,140
Mel:
thinks she's not trying to run.

909
00:58:59,380 --> 00:59:02,700
Mel:
But to me, because again, and again, this is real life.

910
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:10,580
Mel:
He, at other points, had resuscitated other victims and then murdered them after,

911
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,220
Mel:
which also happens, again, the opening scene of the film.

912
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,640
Mel:
So it becomes very clear that he has not let her go.

913
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,440
Mel:
He's toying with her. He's going to take her back to somewhere else where he

914
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,080
Mel:
has control, where he can regain himself, and that then he can murder her.

915
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,200
Mel:
And she escapes in that process.

916
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,120
Chas:
Oh you certainly don't feel like she's safe.

917
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,720
Mel:
No no point in his.

918
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:35,260
Chas:
Presence like she hasn't like changed him internally like he has just been able

919
00:59:35,260 --> 00:59:38,940
Chas:
she has facilitated him resisting his compulsion for.

920
00:59:38,940 --> 00:59:41,120
Mel:
A period of time yeah so.

921
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,920
Chas:
I agree with you uh i don't think he's changed but it's interesting that.

922
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,140
Mel:
No and and he will go on to do that again

923
00:59:48,140 --> 00:59:51,500
Mel:
yeah and and and he did again i

924
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:54,340
Mel:
mean the post script he gets let out on bail and kills two more

925
00:59:54,340 --> 00:59:57,200
Mel:
people yeah yeah like at no point

926
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,360
Mel:
do you feel that he even has a desire to

927
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,380
Mel:
change let alone changes um which is interesting because

928
01:00:03,380 --> 01:00:08,960
Mel:
does cheryl change yes is cheryl the main character no at no point and i think

929
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:15,360
Mel:
that the ending again to me is very noir he doesn't change the system doesn't

930
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:20,460
Mel:
change this is fucked and it continues to be fucked Yeah. The best you can do is survive.

931
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:27,800
Chas:
You know, the why now is we take a story out of the 70s and it just feels like it could happen today.

932
01:00:28,910 --> 01:00:32,270
Mel:
And again, this is about writing, and it's not about directing.

933
01:00:32,590 --> 01:00:41,850
Mel:
But I think that this is a very, very underrated film and how well it is directed to depict those themes.

934
01:00:42,530 --> 01:00:46,230
Mel:
I mean, I mentioned it in the same breath as Zodiac and Memories of Murder,

935
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:48,270
Mel:
and I think it belongs there.

936
01:00:48,730 --> 01:00:55,330
Mel:
And I don't think either of them treated the victims as well as this film does either.

937
01:00:55,330 --> 01:01:02,510
Mel:
And I think that morally and socially, like dealing with a real life story and

938
01:01:02,510 --> 01:01:07,090
Mel:
doing it with this sort of deft touch as a director is incredibly difficult.

939
01:01:07,310 --> 01:01:11,950
Mel:
And to do it while you're acting in it. Now, Anna Kendrick was not originally attached to direct.

940
01:01:12,350 --> 01:01:17,530
Mel:
She was attached only to act. And essentially, the director was unable to continue.

941
01:01:17,530 --> 01:01:22,170
Mel:
and the film would have fallen over had she not directed, which says a lot more

942
01:01:22,170 --> 01:01:25,150
Mel:
about the studio system and needing a big name than anything.

943
01:01:26,090 --> 01:01:30,950
Mel:
The fact that she did this as her debut while being in it is fucking insane.

944
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:34,690
Mel:
And genuinely, David Fincher and Bong Joon-ho could never.

945
01:01:34,970 --> 01:01:35,270
Chas:
Yeah.

946
01:01:35,330 --> 01:01:36,730
Mel:
Like, to be in it.

947
01:01:36,930 --> 01:01:37,270
Chas:
Yes.

948
01:01:37,430 --> 01:01:39,610
Mel:
As well as to direct it is wild.

949
01:01:39,830 --> 01:01:44,370
Chas:
And I don't think those, you know, I'm definitely not calling either of those

950
01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:47,550
Chas:
two directors misogynists.

951
01:01:47,770 --> 01:01:49,370
Mel:
Oh, no, no, no, I'm not doing that.

952
01:01:49,490 --> 01:01:53,670
Chas:
But they are quite, they have brands of masculinity, I think,

953
01:01:53,790 --> 01:01:55,510
Chas:
that comes through in their work.

954
01:01:56,090 --> 01:02:02,750
Chas:
And I think this film works because of the women behind the camera,

955
01:02:02,850 --> 01:02:05,830
Chas:
even though it's written, the credited writer is a man.

956
01:02:05,930 --> 01:02:09,350
Mel:
That depth of understanding. And look, I mean, not to say that,

957
01:02:09,470 --> 01:02:14,930
Mel:
and I do not on any level believe that you need to have experience with abuse

958
01:02:14,930 --> 01:02:16,090
Mel:
to direct something about abuse.

959
01:02:16,210 --> 01:02:20,570
Mel:
But Kendrick took this project very seriously because of her,

960
01:02:20,790 --> 01:02:25,670
Mel:
which she has discussed, history of dealing with certain types of abuse.

961
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:28,850
Mel:
and I think it's very noir. Noir is sympathetic to the victims.

962
01:02:31,290 --> 01:02:36,310
Chas:
Yeah, even in Double Indemnity, the rich, annoying husband who's murdered,

963
01:02:36,490 --> 01:02:39,130
Chas:
like, you feel sorry for him when he's strangled in the car.

964
01:02:39,230 --> 01:02:43,550
Mel:
The worst thing he did was be a little bit like he travelled a lot and didn't

965
01:02:43,550 --> 01:02:47,450
Mel:
pay as much attention to his murderous wife. I mean, he didn't know she was

966
01:02:47,450 --> 01:02:50,930
Mel:
a murderer as he should. Like, that's the worst thing he did, you know?

967
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,860
Chas:
Uh makes you feel sorry for nino as well the uh very.

968
01:02:55,860 --> 01:03:01,300
Mel:
Yeah future abusive husband like you're like god you're you're a bit of an asshole

969
01:03:01,300 --> 01:03:04,960
Mel:
but like do you deserve to be you know framed for murder no.

970
01:03:05,820 --> 01:03:11,200
Chas:
And i think the long goodbye which we should mention has a fucking amazing uncredited

971
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,000
Chas:
uh appearance by arnold schwarzenegger.

972
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,420
Mel:
I enjoy that so much because like again this is one of those things where i'm

973
01:03:16,420 --> 01:03:19,580
Mel:
like oh i've seen this a bunch of times everyone and then all of a sudden out

974
01:03:19,580 --> 01:03:24,000
Mel:
of nowhere you text me arnold schwarzenegger exclamation but i was like oh yeah

975
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:30,040
Mel:
just this randomly massive house of a dude walks in the room and you're like oh jesus with.

976
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:35,820
Chas:
A very 70s mustache um but the the film i was gonna say has a lot of sympathy

977
01:03:35,820 --> 01:03:40,920
Chas:
both marlo because anyone who doesn't infringe his code he has sympathy with

978
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:44,960
Chas:
whether they're rich poor criminal non-criminal,

979
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,780
Chas:
he has sympathy and the film correspondingly also has sympathy with those characters.

980
01:03:50,780 --> 01:03:54,240
Mel:
I think and this ties back to what i said with devinol and blue dress right

981
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:59,460
Mel:
where you're like oh you're a woman in this position i will help you like women

982
01:03:59,460 --> 01:04:03,880
Mel:
and children especially but like anyone who doesn't have power in society the

983
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,360
Mel:
noir detective's code is like i will help you,

984
01:04:07,210 --> 01:04:07,570
Mel:
All right.

985
01:04:07,850 --> 01:04:13,270
Chas:
And we have already, like, just while we've picked three films with male detectives,

986
01:04:14,070 --> 01:04:17,950
Chas:
Woman of the Hours, obviously not that, but, like, to see all these troops played

987
01:04:17,950 --> 01:04:24,070
Chas:
out with very perfectly with a female detective lead, check out Destroyer,

988
01:04:24,150 --> 01:04:27,850
Chas:
which we've also done on the podcast before. It is great.

989
01:04:29,090 --> 01:04:35,850
Chas:
Okay. So, Mel, as a huge lover of noir, have you learned anything new from this analysis?

990
01:04:35,850 --> 01:04:42,490
Mel:
I, I mean, every time, every time I revisit some of these films, you, you see new things.

991
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:46,850
Mel:
I really enjoyed tying the, like, just the fact that you're able to draw these

992
01:04:46,850 --> 01:04:51,990
Mel:
sorts of connections between, you know, like an insurance salesman and a post-war,

993
01:04:52,210 --> 01:04:55,870
Mel:
you know, a GI, like all of those sorts of things are really fascinating.

994
01:04:55,870 --> 01:05:02,850
Mel:
And I think writing characters that are assholes, but are completely relatable

995
01:05:02,850 --> 01:05:07,010
Mel:
and understandable is one of the trickiest things to do.

996
01:05:07,250 --> 01:05:09,930
Mel:
And so I loved this, right?

997
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:16,350
Mel:
And I loved seeing, again, sometimes you get so familiar with something,

998
01:05:16,610 --> 01:05:21,630
Mel:
and Double Indemnity is probably one of those, that you miss some of the things, someone coming to it.

999
01:05:22,070 --> 01:05:25,750
Mel:
So I really loved hearing yours and Anna's reactions live as well.

1000
01:05:26,670 --> 01:05:32,010
Chas:
Look Anna loved all of these films which I was surprised with obviously Woman

1001
01:05:32,010 --> 01:05:36,110
Chas:
of the Hour was the most confronting experience but she came out she enjoyed

1002
01:05:36,110 --> 01:05:39,870
Chas:
watching Devil in the Blue Dress but came out unhappy at the end yeah.

1003
01:05:39,870 --> 01:05:43,810
Mel:
Genuinely I think a lot of people come out more unhappy at the end.

1004
01:05:43,810 --> 01:05:47,690
Chas:
Yeah and I think it's the nihilism whereas the nihilism in The Long Goodbye

1005
01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:52,890
Chas:
it is very nihilistic ending but it's like an upbeat nihilism like he's playing

1006
01:05:52,890 --> 01:05:57,030
Chas:
the harmonica and I'm like just killed my But he got what he deserved. I'm going to move on.

1007
01:05:57,950 --> 01:06:03,570
Chas:
I hope most of my landings have come through with this. I hope people who don't

1008
01:06:03,570 --> 01:06:07,190
Chas:
care for Noir have got something from this. Uh.

1009
01:06:08,140 --> 01:06:13,000
Chas:
I think these films have got really strong control over the questions and that's

1010
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,580
Chas:
how they get us to follow, compelling us to follow characters who are doing terrible things.

1011
01:06:18,020 --> 01:06:20,020
Chas:
And sometimes it's removing the mystery.

1012
01:06:20,620 --> 01:06:22,660
Chas:
We know who did it in Woman of the Hour.

1013
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:23,060
Mel:
Yep.

1014
01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:24,680
Chas:
Opens with him murdering someone.

1015
01:06:24,980 --> 01:06:25,080
Mel:
Yep.

1016
01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:29,840
Chas:
And then it becomes like concern for Cheryl. Like, don't be stupid,

1017
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,300
Chas:
Cheryl. It's like that leaning forward. word and.

1018
01:06:32,300 --> 01:06:34,900
Mel:
That distinction between worldview of the movie.

1019
01:06:34,900 --> 01:06:35,760
Chas:
And worldview.

1020
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:39,480
Mel:
Of like um the characters or like society and.

1021
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:39,920
Chas:
Like how.

1022
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:41,600
Mel:
Those can all be three different levers you pull.

1023
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:42,040
Chas:
I think was.

1024
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:47,140
Mel:
Really great to concentrate on watching all of these but specifically something

1025
01:06:47,140 --> 01:06:50,020
Mel:
like when we're there where you're like oh actually this is a real life story.

1026
01:06:50,020 --> 01:06:51,160
Chas:
Yeah and.

1027
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:56,500
Mel:
How do you come out of that feeling differently about a character than you do about the system and etc.

1028
01:06:56,500 --> 01:07:02,440
Chas:
And i you know i thought that they would be different in each of the films that

1029
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:08,520
Chas:
that these characters worldviews and the film's worldviews would differ but

1030
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:14,640
Chas:
i found in devil in the blue dress they aligned and it worked yep equally well to be honest.

1031
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:21,880
Mel:
I think they probably align in a vast majority of private detective noir specifically um again that's.

1032
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,640
Chas:
Very very broad strokes and look there i think there

1033
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,120
Chas:
are plenty of noir and neo-noir films or films

1034
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,320
Chas:
that use the trappings the style

1035
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,600
Chas:
it will feel noir because it has a detective and it has venetian blinds and

1036
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:38,120
Chas:
it has fedoras and it has voiceovers and it has femme fatales and they might

1037
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:43,140
Chas:
not have what we're talking about which is this characters who are trapped by

1038
01:07:43,140 --> 01:07:49,460
Chas:
their own transgressions uh coming up against insurmountable powers or systems and,

1039
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:55,630
Chas:
having a nihilistic ending. And so, those things can be in Hell or High Water

1040
01:07:55,630 --> 01:07:57,830
Chas:
or Sicario or other films that I love.

1041
01:07:57,910 --> 01:08:00,270
Chas:
They can be in, you know, Blade Runner.

1042
01:08:00,530 --> 01:08:05,310
Chas:
And it can be, like you said, the third genre where it's layered over the top

1043
01:08:05,310 --> 01:08:10,930
Chas:
of a Western, a melodrama, a- Sci-fi. Science fiction, a comedy.

1044
01:08:11,310 --> 01:08:11,790
Mel:
Yep.

1045
01:08:11,950 --> 01:08:13,650
Chas:
I'm sure there is a comedy noir out there.

1046
01:08:13,770 --> 01:08:17,670
Mel:
Of course. There's straight up comedy that's also noir, you know.

1047
01:08:17,670 --> 01:08:21,770
Chas:
As opposed to dark films that are funny, which is very different, different again.

1048
01:08:22,230 --> 01:08:25,310
Mel:
Anyway. Yes. Look, genuinely, I could do this forever.

1049
01:08:25,750 --> 01:08:31,190
Chas:
Well, thank you so much, Mel, for a joy, you know, doing the homework again.

1050
01:08:31,350 --> 01:08:34,550
Mel:
I'll be honest. This is the least homework I've probably ever done for a Draft

1051
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:38,210
Mel:
Zero video. I went, I will rewatch these movies. Great. That's it.

1052
01:08:39,210 --> 01:08:42,710
Chas:
But also just for making more Draft Zero happen.

1053
01:08:42,870 --> 01:08:47,050
Chas:
If you hadn't pitched in, if you hadn't engaged with us in planning the homework,

1054
01:08:47,050 --> 01:08:49,050
Chas:
It wouldn't have happened at all.

1055
01:08:49,230 --> 01:08:53,630
Chas:
So the other thing that makes more Draft Zero happen more often are amazing Patreons.

1056
01:08:53,850 --> 01:08:56,430
Chas:
So thank you, Patreons.

1057
01:08:56,730 --> 01:09:00,170
Mel:
While you bring that up, I will also shout out the AFLW, because a lot of the

1058
01:09:00,170 --> 01:09:03,290
Mel:
planning for this episode has happened during the AFLW.

1059
01:09:03,850 --> 01:09:08,370
Chas:
Yeah. Do you want to tell our non-Australian listeners what the AFLW is?

1060
01:09:08,410 --> 01:09:13,510
Mel:
Oh, footy, also known as Aussie Rules, which is not the same as football,

1061
01:09:13,670 --> 01:09:18,790
Mel:
which is definitely not the same as rugby. um it is one of the greatest sports

1062
01:09:18,790 --> 01:09:20,910
Mel:
in the world and you should get stuck in.

1063
01:09:20,910 --> 01:09:24,490
Chas:
Thank you as always to our amazing patreons crob

1064
01:09:24,490 --> 01:09:33,830
Chas:
these sandra jesse randy paolo thomas jen malay alexandra and lily wow that

1065
01:09:33,830 --> 01:09:39,330
Chas:
list is growing that's nice um i'm glad that these told us how to pronounce

1066
01:09:39,330 --> 01:09:43,910
Chas:
his name apparently it's thesis but without the is at the end there's.

1067
01:09:43,910 --> 01:09:47,210
Mel:
A lot of great noir names in there Randy and Alexandra, excellent.

1068
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:47,550
Chas:
Mm-hmm.

1069
01:09:48,540 --> 01:09:48,960
Mel:
Excellent.

1070
01:09:49,180 --> 01:09:50,040
Chas:
Okay, thank you, Mel.

1071
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,540
FX:
I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on

1072
01:09:56,540 --> 01:09:58,160
FX:
this episode or anything in general.

1073
01:09:58,340 --> 01:10:04,960
FX:
And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com.

1074
01:10:05,140 --> 01:10:09,340
FX:
At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes,

1075
01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:14,820
FX:
as well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and

1076
01:10:14,820 --> 01:10:16,540
FX:
review on Apple Podcasts.

1077
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,260
FX:
Very important for spreading the word. Or if you think that what we do here

1078
01:10:20,260 --> 01:10:24,960
FX:
is worth a dollar or preferably more than a dollar, then you can also find links

1079
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:30,500
FX:
to our Patreon page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker.

1080
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,780
FX:
Thanks. And thanks for listening.