WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.185 --> 00:00:06.215 Colin: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:06.215 --> 00:00:07.045 My name is Colin. 00:00:07.405 --> 00:00:08.105 CJ: And I'm CJ. 00:00:08.115 --> 00:00:11.495 And we're catching up again today about what we're working on, what 00:00:11.495 --> 00:00:12.845 we're learning, what we're building. 00:00:13.255 --> 00:00:19.725 We'll have a few little bits and pieces about Vim and also money 00:00:19.735 --> 00:00:23.805 and what we're using to manage our money because mint is going away. 00:00:23.815 --> 00:00:27.985 So if you haven't already migrated, I want to start thinking about that. 00:00:28.775 --> 00:00:29.155 Colin: That's right. 00:00:29.155 --> 00:00:29.275 Yeah. 00:00:29.275 --> 00:00:32.135 We, we talked about that on a show, I think, right? 00:00:32.135 --> 00:00:33.105 I didn't hallucinate that. 00:00:33.570 --> 00:00:34.390 CJ: Yeah, I think so. 00:00:34.390 --> 00:00:37.150 And by the time this goes out, it'll already be sunset. 00:00:37.170 --> 00:00:39.850 So yeah, hopefully you already have ducks in a row. 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:41.240 Colin: to Mint. 00:00:41.330 --> 00:00:42.250 It was a long run. 00:00:43.130 --> 00:00:44.720 It's, it's the holiday time. 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:48.150 It'll be like end of January when this comes out, but it's kind of like that 00:00:48.180 --> 00:00:51.330 year end wrap up variety show for us. 00:00:51.340 --> 00:00:56.640 It's really quiet in the office today, both digitally and in person. 00:00:56.650 --> 00:00:58.630 There's like three people in the co working space. 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:03.040 PTO for Christmas things. 00:01:03.460 --> 00:01:04.230 But we're here, 00:01:04.810 --> 00:01:08.810 CJ: Does your team have like a support rotation where you have to be on, like 00:01:08.820 --> 00:01:12.420 some people are on shift next week, or is it mostly just like everything 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:13.630 is shut down until the new year? 00:01:13.630 --> 00:01:13.920 Mm 00:01:14.340 --> 00:01:18.730 Colin: We have like an emergency on point, I think, but this is, I think, 00:01:18.730 --> 00:01:23.230 probably one of the bigger advantages of going into DevRel is that I no 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:26.150 longer have scheduled rotations. 00:01:26.590 --> 00:01:27.030 CJ: hmm. 00:01:27.090 --> 00:01:27.210 Mm 00:01:27.490 --> 00:01:29.620 Colin: There are, there are not that many emergencies with the 00:01:29.620 --> 00:01:31.390 docs, which I, which I love. 00:01:32.490 --> 00:01:32.960 CJ: totally. 00:01:33.380 --> 00:01:37.970 Yeah, we today are starting our first code freeze. 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:41.220 So it's like, okay, hey, the holidays are happening, people 00:01:41.220 --> 00:01:42.160 are going to be in and out. 00:01:42.330 --> 00:01:46.660 And let's just be careful and prudent and not merge to 00:01:46.660 --> 00:01:48.970 production for the next week or so. 00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:54.180 So we are all kind of continuing to work on stuff just in, you know, draft. 00:01:54.610 --> 00:01:57.470 PRs and draft branches on GitHub. 00:01:57.470 --> 00:02:01.590 And then when January rolls around, we'll sit down and review everything. 00:02:01.590 --> 00:02:07.070 And once we have a nice fresh cup of coffee and a fresh face for 2024, we'll 00:02:07.070 --> 00:02:11.220 go through and make sure that code is crisp and clean and ready to rock. 00:02:11.330 --> 00:02:14.710 And yeah, we'll merge it, but I think it's going to be a good 00:02:15.210 --> 00:02:20.340 stress mitigation tactic for the holidays to not have stuff going out. 00:02:20.530 --> 00:02:20.850 So. 00:02:21.070 --> 00:02:22.740 Colin: that sounds like a 2024 problem. 00:02:24.225 --> 00:02:24.835 CJ: exactly. 00:02:25.295 --> 00:02:26.125 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:02:26.525 --> 00:02:30.215 So I was looking around the, I use mint for a couple of things. 00:02:30.215 --> 00:02:35.305 I'm curious what you use it for to for me, I have spreadsheets with the 00:02:35.305 --> 00:02:40.585 rental properties and just general income from, we have like so many weird 00:02:40.645 --> 00:02:44.795 streams of income from YouTube and different projects throughout the years. 00:02:44.795 --> 00:02:50.305 And so I try to use a spreadsheet for like a high level, you know, Tracker 00:02:50.305 --> 00:02:54.445 of like profit and loss and expenses so that when it comes time for taxes, 00:02:54.445 --> 00:02:57.815 I don't have to like go and track down every single little transaction. 00:02:57.825 --> 00:03:03.085 But throughout the year, the way that I do that is I look at mint and I 00:03:03.095 --> 00:03:05.025 search for transit transactions with, 00:03:05.645 --> 00:03:09.315 statement descriptors that I remember and memorize like, Oh yeah, the statement 00:03:09.315 --> 00:03:13.985 descriptor for the power company for the Kings beach house is this. 00:03:14.015 --> 00:03:17.865 And then I can just like quickly find all the different power bills 00:03:18.215 --> 00:03:21.615 and how much was spent on those and then add that into the spreadsheet. 00:03:21.785 --> 00:03:23.315 So I. 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:27.800 Am bummed that will that will no longer be a thing So we'll have to like 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.570 figure out where those transactions are actually happening Whether that's 00:03:31.570 --> 00:03:35.240 on a credit card statement or you know bank statements or whatever and then 00:03:35.250 --> 00:03:39.440 the other thing I use it for is just general like account health like you 00:03:39.440 --> 00:03:44.310 know, snapshot bird's eye view of Like okay are all of the checking accounts? 00:03:44.480 --> 00:03:46.160 You know, above zero 00:03:46.895 --> 00:03:47.295 Colin: Yeah. 00:03:47.390 --> 00:03:51.400 CJ: like is there any movement that needs to happen to make sure 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:53.020 that things can float or whatever? 00:03:53.025 --> 00:03:57.210 So like yeah, those are kind of the two use cases that I have. 00:03:57.215 --> 00:04:01.040 I don't so much use it for managing investments other than just 00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:02.240 like looking at them, but yeah. 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.390 What are, what are some stuff that you were using it for in the past? 00:04:06.555 --> 00:04:06.865 Colin: Yeah. 00:04:06.865 --> 00:04:08.715 I mean, Mint is my more passive one. 00:04:08.935 --> 00:04:12.455 I haven't really been a big user cause I never really liked it very much. 00:04:12.455 --> 00:04:17.025 Like I liked the monthly summaries and things, but the amount of ads and pushing 00:04:17.025 --> 00:04:20.665 of credit cards and stuff I just didn't like and certain accounts would fall 00:04:20.665 --> 00:04:23.735 off and disconnect and just, it was never a really good source of truth. 00:04:24.205 --> 00:04:27.475 But it's, it's more of a internet nostalgia for me. 00:04:27.475 --> 00:04:28.045 Like Mint. 00:04:28.370 --> 00:04:29.340 Just the story of it. 00:04:29.340 --> 00:04:30.980 And we talked about it in a past episode. 00:04:30.990 --> 00:04:35.460 It's just one of those things that I just enjoyed seeing it, using it. 00:04:35.900 --> 00:04:38.010 I'm now using co pilot money. 00:04:38.010 --> 00:04:41.900 And I really do think that these tools are like all the different to do list 00:04:41.910 --> 00:04:46.000 apps out there, like the best one is the one that you just use, you can. 00:04:46.340 --> 00:04:48.750 find pros and cons in all of them. 00:04:49.150 --> 00:04:55.490 But if you can build the habit to use one period, it's the best one for you. 00:04:55.530 --> 00:04:55.790 Right. 00:04:55.790 --> 00:04:59.890 And you might have some needs for like a spouse or something for 00:04:59.940 --> 00:05:01.450 like shared accounts and stuff. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.860 But for me, I really liked Copilot cause it's got a Mac app and an iPhone app. 00:05:05.860 --> 00:05:08.280 It feels like it is a native app, I think. 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:09.150 So. 00:05:09.510 --> 00:05:11.730 But I can still see it on my phone and things like that. 00:05:12.170 --> 00:05:15.770 And I am still trying to figure out how best to label things, but 00:05:15.770 --> 00:05:18.560 I now have a podcast expense label. 00:05:18.870 --> 00:05:22.620 I have arena collective expense label because sometimes I accidentally pay 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:26.580 for things on my card, or if I need to float something, I'll, you know, if I'm 00:05:26.580 --> 00:05:28.305 at the store and buying something that. 00:05:29.225 --> 00:05:31.875 I'll pay for it with my card and try to expense it later. 00:05:32.315 --> 00:05:34.505 But like the podcast, we don't make money doing this. 00:05:34.505 --> 00:05:39.855 So it's just more of, I would like to know how much money I'm spending on this show. 00:05:39.885 --> 00:05:42.345 And a lot of things that we spend on the show, it's because 00:05:42.345 --> 00:05:43.565 it just makes our lives easier. 00:05:43.575 --> 00:05:47.545 It makes it easier to edit, easier to record remotely, all of that stuff. 00:05:47.885 --> 00:05:51.625 But the other tag that I have been paying attention to is I have a 00:05:51.635 --> 00:05:54.185 hosting tag and I have a domains tag. 00:05:54.675 --> 00:05:56.105 Because those are two things that. 00:05:56.345 --> 00:05:58.045 are very invisible to me usually. 00:05:58.045 --> 00:06:01.855 Like I think I have like a card on an Amazon thing somewhere 00:06:01.855 --> 00:06:03.685 that gets billed like a dollar a 00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:04.092 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:06:04.105 --> 00:06:04.665 Colin: or something. 00:06:05.185 --> 00:06:09.675 But I want to know if that's like suddenly a thousand dollars, those kinds of things. 00:06:09.685 --> 00:06:12.295 So so I have those tagged and I'm still trying to figure out 00:06:12.295 --> 00:06:13.945 like, what do those look like? 00:06:14.095 --> 00:06:16.745 Cause in Copilot, you can have it like a, I don't know if it's infinite. 00:06:17.230 --> 00:06:20.690 But you can have tags under tags under tags, and so you can kind 00:06:20.690 --> 00:06:24.790 of roll up a certain type of expense and things like that. 00:06:25.410 --> 00:06:30.660 CJ: Lots of like, segmentation and, yeah taxonomy that you can build out. 00:06:31.230 --> 00:06:33.770 Is Copilot money free or paid? 00:06:34.570 --> 00:06:35.560 Colin: It is paid. 00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:39.580 There is a trial and we can probably throw out a link too. 00:06:39.580 --> 00:06:42.710 I think I have a link that like gets me free months and gets you free months if 00:06:42.710 --> 00:06:43.990 you're listening and you want to try it. 00:06:44.490 --> 00:06:45.150 CJ: Yeah, okay. 00:06:45.930 --> 00:06:46.950 Colin: But I've liked it so far. 00:06:46.950 --> 00:06:50.300 I, what I like is that it also has investments and debt and 00:06:50.300 --> 00:06:51.370 things like that in there too. 00:06:51.370 --> 00:06:53.180 So you get a true bird's eye view. 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:55.810 I've used things like personal capital and some of the other 00:06:55.810 --> 00:06:57.480 tools for those in the past. 00:06:57.980 --> 00:07:01.210 But I think they, like, I feel pretty good that Copilot's not 00:07:01.210 --> 00:07:03.000 sending, selling my data to anybody. 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.120 Whereas some of these other ones, you know, I think they all get 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:07.490 into that business at some point. 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:09.330 But do you use YNAB? 00:07:09.500 --> 00:07:10.490 Do I remember that from 00:07:11.015 --> 00:07:19.555 CJ: So, yes, we used YNAB really actively for the first half of this year ish, 00:07:19.615 --> 00:07:21.585 and then we just kind of like fell off. 00:07:21.705 --> 00:07:23.255 It's a lot to keep up with. 00:07:23.285 --> 00:07:25.645 And for that one, you like really have to stay on top of it. 00:07:26.225 --> 00:07:28.235 I want to say it uses like a zero. 00:07:28.890 --> 00:07:32.160 Based like a zero balance approach or something like that, where you 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.270 basically like allocate every single dollar before the month even starts. 00:07:36.280 --> 00:07:39.610 And then you kind of go into it, which for us works really, really well. 00:07:39.610 --> 00:07:40.240 It's kind of like. 00:07:40.615 --> 00:07:42.855 You know, a calorie tracker in a way where you're like, okay, I 00:07:42.855 --> 00:07:44.455 have 2000 calories to spend today. 00:07:44.455 --> 00:07:48.165 How, how do I want to spend them instead of like working backwards? 00:07:48.615 --> 00:07:52.865 But there are so many, I, I like Googled around and I was looking at Reddit and 00:07:52.865 --> 00:07:56.175 some Facebook posts about alternatives to mint and where people are going. 00:07:56.185 --> 00:08:01.085 And someone on Reddit created a Google sheet that literally has like a hundred. 00:08:01.765 --> 00:08:07.405 Different options for like, is it copilot money or is it monarch or 00:08:07.405 --> 00:08:10.725 personal capital or credit karma or like all of these different things. 00:08:10.725 --> 00:08:16.215 And so I, I feel like pretty overwhelmed with the number of options for replacing 00:08:16.215 --> 00:08:21.595 this and the ones that people seem to promote the most are also paid. 00:08:21.595 --> 00:08:24.065 So I think it's going to end up being one of those things where like, okay, 00:08:24.275 --> 00:08:26.545 obviously mint was too good to be true. 00:08:26.585 --> 00:08:29.045 It couldn't sustain without a paid model. 00:08:29.045 --> 00:08:30.285 And so like maybe the paid. 00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:32.230 Paid option is the way to go. 00:08:32.230 --> 00:08:35.220 Especially if it's going to be something that really is useful. 00:08:36.390 --> 00:08:38.800 Colin: This is kind of like the social network problem, right? 00:08:38.810 --> 00:08:43.350 Though, is that if you aren't paying for it, you are somehow paying for it and. 00:08:43.920 --> 00:08:49.220 I don't think, like, Twitter becoming X and having a paid option 00:08:49.630 --> 00:08:51.700 was not a paid social network. 00:08:51.710 --> 00:08:55.000 It was a way to try to pay down Elon's debt, right? 00:08:55.340 --> 00:08:58.470 It gives you half ads or something like that. 00:08:58.470 --> 00:09:02.130 It's like, literally, like, I would pay to have an ad free social 00:09:02.130 --> 00:09:04.230 network where I am not the customer. 00:09:04.490 --> 00:09:06.780 The product being sold to advertisers. 00:09:07.060 --> 00:09:11.050 Same with Monarch, Copilot, some of these apps. 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.330 It's just a more sustainable thing that if this is valuable to you, you're 00:09:14.330 --> 00:09:15.650 going to, you're going to pay for it. 00:09:15.900 --> 00:09:18.040 YNAB wasn't free either, was it? 00:09:18.630 --> 00:09:19.440 CJ: it's not, no. 00:09:19.750 --> 00:09:20.100 Yeah. 00:09:20.870 --> 00:09:21.170 Yeah. 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:24.260 I kind of see YNAB is like a different use case too, for us. 00:09:24.260 --> 00:09:28.970 Like it's, I feel like YNAB is purely for the budgeting side and it's really 00:09:28.970 --> 00:09:33.300 good at that In our experience the mint budgeting we tried it for a while, 00:09:33.300 --> 00:09:37.320 but it didn't it didn't stick and like there's a lot of I don't know. 00:09:37.330 --> 00:09:40.290 There were like bugs in the categorization process where it would like auto 00:09:40.290 --> 00:09:44.280 categorize incorrectly and things so we didn't end up going that route too much. 00:09:44.280 --> 00:09:45.840 But yeah, YNAB is paid. 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.310 I think I I want to try out copilot money I started signing up for monarch 00:09:50.310 --> 00:09:54.650 and I'm also like, I really want it to work with all of our accounts. 00:09:54.680 --> 00:09:59.470 And we have so many weird, like little things, like, is it going to connect 00:09:59.520 --> 00:10:03.960 to the equity platform that where my Stripe stock is, or is it going to like 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.300 connect to this weird, like mortgage company that we have, like a mortgage? 00:10:07.905 --> 00:10:11.125 On this house on that didn't even connect to mint. 00:10:11.185 --> 00:10:13.585 So like, who knows like what the chances are. 00:10:13.585 --> 00:10:17.365 And then if it doesn't connect, then how, what does it look like for like the 00:10:17.365 --> 00:10:21.055 manual, like to manually manage those assets and how they change over time. 00:10:21.055 --> 00:10:21.385 So, 00:10:22.210 --> 00:10:22.460 Colin: Yeah. 00:10:22.460 --> 00:10:25.600 And I would say for some of those, if they don't affect your budgeting, 00:10:25.610 --> 00:10:29.270 like if you plan on using YNAB for budgeting, then it's okay to have 00:10:29.270 --> 00:10:30.830 those other things somewhere else. 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.160 For me, it's kind of nice to see the net worth calculator, but a 00:10:35.160 --> 00:10:38.040 lot of it's like based on stocks, which that thing goes up and down. 00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:41.810 And you know, it's almost nicer to just not look at that stuff and just 00:10:41.820 --> 00:10:44.340 be like, what is net worth in cash? 00:10:44.470 --> 00:10:48.160 And maybe your debts or something like that so that you have 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.540 priorities of getting credit cards loans, things like that off. 00:10:51.850 --> 00:10:56.540 Whereas your stocks, you know, are better for having those in some 00:10:56.540 --> 00:10:59.360 sort of like market account or something that you can go look at. 00:10:59.870 --> 00:11:03.220 Same for, you know, equity, things like that, that you might have. 00:11:03.750 --> 00:11:07.410 We are not certified financial professionals, so go talk to your, go 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:08.940 talk to your person if you need to. 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:12.550 If you don't have someone, I, I mean that's, that's also an interesting thing, 00:11:12.550 --> 00:11:17.540 like I've, I've had the idea of starting one of these many finance apps and I'm 00:11:17.540 --> 00:11:21.380 glad that I haven't because it's, it's just kind of hard and I don't think that 00:11:21.380 --> 00:11:23.990 people necessarily want to pay for it. 00:11:24.695 --> 00:11:27.715 Which is a common theme with most of the ideas of things that I want to build. 00:11:28.195 --> 00:11:31.245 Anyways, it's like people want it, but they don't want to pay for it. 00:11:31.795 --> 00:11:36.025 But again, I think it helps to not be the product and being sold 00:11:36.025 --> 00:11:37.465 to credit card companies too. 00:11:37.650 --> 00:11:39.260 CJ: Yeah, yeah, totally. 00:11:39.310 --> 00:11:42.520 I yeah, we also started with like, we started the migration over to 00:11:42.520 --> 00:11:45.370 Credit Karma just because it was the like path of least resistance, 00:11:45.390 --> 00:11:47.350 but we'll see how long that lasts. 00:11:47.380 --> 00:11:50.150 And again, yeah, they're just going to sell all of our stuff to credit card 00:11:50.150 --> 00:11:53.850 companies to try to get us whatever deals. 00:11:53.865 --> 00:11:57.165 Colin: I mean, and they're owned by Intuit, and Intuit's, at least in 00:11:57.165 --> 00:12:01.605 Nevada, they're exploring a way for, I think it's the state is offering 00:12:01.605 --> 00:12:04.825 a way to file your taxes instead of having to go through Intuit and stuff 00:12:04.825 --> 00:12:08.585 like that which would be nice if that was a federal thing, but I think it's 00:12:08.585 --> 00:12:10.745 because we don't have state income tax. 00:12:10.755 --> 00:12:11.965 Actually, yeah, I don't know. 00:12:11.995 --> 00:12:14.985 Ours is just simpler, so we'll see how that goes. 00:12:15.195 --> 00:12:17.215 I think most of that stuff goes out the window for me. 00:12:17.935 --> 00:12:22.525 Because I have a K 1 through an LLC and it's like my taxes are never just like do 00:12:22.525 --> 00:12:24.425 your W 2 and you're and be done with it. 00:12:25.935 --> 00:12:27.495 But we'll see how that goes. 00:12:27.495 --> 00:12:30.385 So I think the big thing here is just like paying attention to the 00:12:30.385 --> 00:12:32.095 money we are spending on this show. 00:12:32.485 --> 00:12:35.835 I think we were talking about, you know, you you pay for Notion I'm 00:12:35.835 --> 00:12:40.045 paying for Zencaster like at some point all these little things add up 00:12:40.045 --> 00:12:41.845 to death by a thousand paper cuts. 00:12:41.855 --> 00:12:42.095 So 00:12:42.855 --> 00:12:45.585 CJ: Yeah, if you're listening, and you love the show, and you want it to 00:12:45.585 --> 00:12:47.835 continue, maybe consider sponsoring. 00:12:48.535 --> 00:12:52.195 I don't know, like, we gotta figure out how to, figure out how to set up 00:12:52.195 --> 00:12:55.695 some sponsorships or something just to get It would also be cool to have 00:12:55.925 --> 00:12:57.795 the editing paid for, too, right? 00:12:57.795 --> 00:13:03.525 Like, if we could I think the, like, rough rule of thumb is like 00:13:03.525 --> 00:13:08.475 100 an episode for editing, which isn't You know, astronomical plus 00:13:09.155 --> 00:13:10.835 hosting plus the tools or whatever. 00:13:10.935 --> 00:13:15.315 Yeah, it doesn't seem impossible to get that covered by sponsors. 00:13:15.345 --> 00:13:15.725 So, 00:13:16.490 --> 00:13:19.510 Colin: yeah, I think the like developer tools companies would be 00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:23.580 really cool for us, like a century, a honey badger, something like that. 00:13:24.310 --> 00:13:27.320 So something we'll have to explore in the new 2024. 00:13:27.645 --> 00:13:30.265 CJ: Yeah, that might be a good, good good goal in 2024. 00:13:30.930 --> 00:13:31.320 Colin: Yeah, 00:13:31.615 --> 00:13:36.075 CJ: So, I saw your tweet about annotating websites, like and then I 00:13:36.075 --> 00:13:37.565 dropped a comment about Rap Genius. 00:13:37.585 --> 00:13:39.735 I think it's not even called Rap Genius anymore. 00:13:39.745 --> 00:13:41.015 This is like 20, 00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:42.050 Colin: just genius. 00:13:42.295 --> 00:13:43.185 CJ: Just Genius now? 00:13:43.195 --> 00:13:43.565 Okay. 00:13:44.290 --> 00:13:48.080 Colin: Yeah, they at some point, they made it so you could annotate the whole web. 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:49.120 But then I went to genius. 00:13:49.380 --> 00:13:49.660 com. 00:13:49.660 --> 00:13:51.270 And it was not what I was expecting. 00:13:51.270 --> 00:13:53.470 It was like still a rap website, which is fine. 00:13:54.030 --> 00:13:57.910 But I wouldn't, I couldn't figure out how to use it, what to do with it. 00:13:59.170 --> 00:14:01.220 didn't even see the old Rap Genius on there. 00:14:01.220 --> 00:14:04.430 Like, I remember using Rap Genius and being able to hover over, like, 00:14:04.430 --> 00:14:05.700 lyrics and stuff, and it was cool. 00:14:06.310 --> 00:14:06.660 CJ: Yeah. 00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:11.420 So for those following along at home, if you didn't go to the website, rap 00:14:11.420 --> 00:14:17.940 genius, when, you know, in the 20 2010s, there was this, this this website 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:23.120 where you could go and see lyrics from songs, rap songs, and then you could 00:14:23.130 --> 00:14:25.770 hover over parts of the lyrics and. 00:14:26.040 --> 00:14:30.060 You could see user generated comments about those lyrics, like 00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:31.460 that specific word or whatever. 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:36.440 And so you could also highlight and select a part of the lyric and then add 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:41.020 your own comment in the same way that you would expect in like Google docs or in 00:14:41.020 --> 00:14:45.430 notion or whatever, you can kind of like highlight sections and drop in comments. 00:14:45.760 --> 00:14:49.390 But it let you do it for, yeah, it was just like for song lyrics. 00:14:49.870 --> 00:14:53.530 The reason why I remember it so well is that a lot of App Academy 00:14:53.530 --> 00:14:57.850 students would make rap genius clones as their final project. 00:14:58.690 --> 00:14:59.080 Yeah. 00:14:59.085 --> 00:15:03.660 This was like a very 2012 thing to, yeah. 00:15:03.660 --> 00:15:06.540 I mean, and it's, it's a, it's an amazing idea. 00:15:06.660 --> 00:15:11.580 And also I wanted it forever for the Stripe Docs because I, I, there's 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:13.260 like so many cool use cases, right? 00:15:13.260 --> 00:15:15.030 You could imagine, oh, I. 00:15:15.975 --> 00:15:20.525 I am planning to do a Stripe integration and I'm working with my team and I 00:15:20.525 --> 00:15:24.455 want to annotate the docs and say like this part is relevant for us. 00:15:24.455 --> 00:15:25.395 This part is not. 00:15:25.745 --> 00:15:28.825 Hey, let's like investigate this parameter or something. 00:15:29.195 --> 00:15:32.025 And then you could have just a stream of comments that are on the right. 00:15:32.075 --> 00:15:33.395 Maybe that's just for your team. 00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:39.160 Or you could also have like a public version, which, yeah, exactly. 00:15:39.170 --> 00:15:39.630 Yeah. 00:15:39.670 --> 00:15:42.940 So, so anyone could come in and add their own sort of editorial 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.240 comments about something. 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:49.740 And and it would be related to the text in line where that gets sorta gnarly. 00:15:50.560 --> 00:15:52.330 I don't actually know what use case you're going for. 00:15:52.330 --> 00:15:53.050 Like what, yeah. 00:15:53.050 --> 00:15:55.060 Like what is kind of like 00:15:55.140 --> 00:15:56.670 Colin: very similar to Docs. 00:15:56.680 --> 00:15:59.300 Like, so we have our existing Docs, and I wanted to annotate 00:15:59.300 --> 00:16:01.430 them and, like, even tag. 00:16:01.900 --> 00:16:04.090 each page as like a certain type. 00:16:04.090 --> 00:16:06.640 So I could start, I was doing a lot of information architecture stuff, 00:16:06.640 --> 00:16:09.700 basically, but I didn't want to do it in Figma because I couldn't 00:16:09.700 --> 00:16:11.270 just like move things around. 00:16:11.270 --> 00:16:15.500 And, you know, I wanted to use like notion like comments or like Figma style 00:16:15.500 --> 00:16:20.180 comments where you can have them in line and have a conversation with your team. 00:16:20.510 --> 00:16:23.290 And I think this is, this feels like what you just mentioned feels 00:16:23.290 --> 00:16:27.810 like another business idea that is hard to make money at, unless it's. 00:16:28.030 --> 00:16:30.050 targeted at teams, right? 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.820 Where that team collaboration across the web is amazing. 00:16:34.420 --> 00:16:38.080 But if it was like a free consumer use thing, like no one probably 00:16:38.180 --> 00:16:40.760 really wants to pay for it unless they're like a superpower user. 00:16:41.150 --> 00:16:44.370 Because they're having those like Kindle, like highlights and Kindle 00:16:44.390 --> 00:16:47.470 notes and stuff is one of the I actually enjoy that when I'm reading. 00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:52.780 I have a feeling we would get feature requests in yet another place that 00:16:52.780 --> 00:16:54.370 I do not want feature requests. 00:16:55.375 --> 00:16:56.745 Hey, this doesn't seem like it's working. 00:16:56.745 --> 00:17:01.125 I'd say, okay, can you not report bugs in the docs in the annotations? 00:17:01.175 --> 00:17:03.225 But maybe that would be a cool way to do it. 00:17:03.225 --> 00:17:03.535 I don't know. 00:17:04.130 --> 00:17:06.380 CJ: Yeah, or people will ask questions. 00:17:06.460 --> 00:17:09.420 Like it's not a place for support necessarily, but people, I could see 00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:13.930 people being like, how does this like, or, you know, even worse, like where's 00:17:13.930 --> 00:17:16.300 my money kind of things like so. 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:19.830 Yeah, I don't know, scoping it to a team makes a lot of sense. 00:17:20.260 --> 00:17:21.740 There's this tool called frame. 00:17:21.750 --> 00:17:28.700 io that we used at Stripe and this is for video editing where we would 00:17:28.770 --> 00:17:33.070 like edit a video, put it up in frame and Brad would like send me a link 00:17:33.070 --> 00:17:34.890 and say, Hey, can you review this cut? 00:17:34.990 --> 00:17:37.520 And then as you're going through at any. 00:17:38.355 --> 00:17:41.955 Yeah, at any point in the video, you can leave a comment that gets 00:17:41.955 --> 00:17:43.755 tagged like at that time marker. 00:17:44.125 --> 00:17:46.455 And then you can have a stream of comments on the side and you can even 00:17:46.455 --> 00:17:51.465 like highlight a region of the video or like put arrows kind of like you're doing 00:17:51.465 --> 00:17:55.095 like a sketch you know, making sketch comments or whatever about a screenshot. 00:17:55.125 --> 00:17:56.215 That was killer. 00:17:56.215 --> 00:18:00.045 It was so useful for video, like collaborative video editing. 00:18:00.595 --> 00:18:04.525 So it's, it's for sure something that's valuable. 00:18:04.815 --> 00:18:07.375 Colin: Skitch is a name I haven't heard in a minute either. 00:18:07.895 --> 00:18:09.075 CJ: Oh my gosh, that's a tool. 00:18:09.075 --> 00:18:09.735 I don't know. 00:18:09.965 --> 00:18:10.295 Yeah. 00:18:10.305 --> 00:18:11.615 I don't know if a lot of people use that. 00:18:11.665 --> 00:18:15.045 It's just something that it has become like a default install. 00:18:15.045 --> 00:18:21.775 When I like jump onto a machine, it's like an, an old Evernote tool for putting 00:18:21.785 --> 00:18:23.525 air, like pointing arrows at things. 00:18:23.575 --> 00:18:24.135 And 00:18:24.305 --> 00:18:26.515 Colin: Evernote, like this is all the old web. 00:18:27.695 --> 00:18:28.645 CJ: I'm showing, I'm 00:18:28.725 --> 00:18:29.225 Colin: We've got 00:18:29.325 --> 00:18:30.775 CJ: My gray beard right now. 00:18:31.495 --> 00:18:34.545 Colin: yeah, Mintz, Evernote, Skitch, and Rap Genius. 00:18:34.575 --> 00:18:38.310 Those are your go to apps from 2012. 00:18:39.405 --> 00:18:39.775 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:39.830 --> 00:18:42.590 Colin: mean, we don't, we don't pay for the Descript version that lets 00:18:42.590 --> 00:18:46.120 us edit episodes together, but you can also do collaborative editing 00:18:46.120 --> 00:18:48.890 and comments in Descript, too. 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:50.960 So, I think this collaborative thing is huge. 00:18:51.390 --> 00:18:54.870 It would be almost cool to take those annotations and have integrations to 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.350 GitHub and others and say, like, Turn this annotation into a GitHub issue. 00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:01.830 Turn this into a linear ticket or a JIRA ticket or whatever. 00:19:02.230 --> 00:19:05.590 And it almost makes it more transparent and you know, you can 00:19:05.590 --> 00:19:07.260 make this all get backed or something. 00:19:07.260 --> 00:19:08.250 It'd be kind of interesting. 00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:10.780 So there's, there's some ideas for people. 00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:11.700 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:16.310 So yeah, that's, is that something that you're building or you're 00:19:16.320 --> 00:19:18.760 just like had the idea and you're like, I wonder if this exists. 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:22.790 Colin: Yeah, I was just like frustrated because I'm in, I'm actually doing 00:19:22.790 --> 00:19:27.850 the IA for navigation in Notion, but like now that I'm saying it out loud, 00:19:27.850 --> 00:19:31.110 I probably should do it in some sort of get backed thing because I'm just 00:19:31.110 --> 00:19:32.740 doing like lots of versions of it. 00:19:32.955 --> 00:19:40.515 In terms of like sorting it by topic and then resorting it by getting started 00:19:40.515 --> 00:19:43.975 and tutorials and guides and explainers, kind of like we talked about in the past. 00:19:44.265 --> 00:19:47.695 So I'm doing like a bunch of different perspectives and trying to show it to 00:19:47.695 --> 00:19:51.915 people and say, if you were trying to do this, where would you think you would go? 00:19:52.355 --> 00:19:55.665 And we're going to do that even with the existing docs, because I guarantee right 00:19:55.665 --> 00:19:57.925 now, if I say, how do you build a bot? 00:19:58.350 --> 00:20:00.750 You will not know where to go, and that's a problem. 00:20:00.820 --> 00:20:04.650 So, we're trying to fix that kind of stuff, and just having annotations, 00:20:05.050 --> 00:20:08.440 I think would be really helpful from like a writing and doc perspective. 00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:09.430 CJ: Got it. 00:20:09.570 --> 00:20:10.480 Yeah, sorry. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:11.560 I missed that the first time. 00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:17.350 The, one of the things that we did at Stripe was we had these meetings 00:20:17.350 --> 00:20:21.900 called docs review and when a product was about to launch, they would bring 00:20:21.910 --> 00:20:26.420 their new product documentation to docs review and it would be developer 00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:28.490 advocate, developer support engineer. 00:20:28.905 --> 00:20:35.025 A salesperson a docs writer, a docs editor, and like a lot of the 00:20:35.025 --> 00:20:40.865 conversation often ended up being around IA, like where in the navigation 00:20:40.885 --> 00:20:44.135 should this live and how should, like, how are you going to find this thing? 00:20:44.135 --> 00:20:48.915 And how does it flow from the previous thing to this thing, to the next thing? 00:20:48.915 --> 00:20:52.895 And yeah, so it's a, it's a really hard problem. 00:20:53.395 --> 00:20:55.985 I don't know how to fix it, but yeah, I think annotations 00:20:55.985 --> 00:20:56.845 would be killer for that. 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.850 Colin: Definitely not another thing I want to build, because that's a topic 00:21:01.850 --> 00:21:03.040 that we'll talk about in a second. 00:21:03.040 --> 00:21:05.930 It's something that I've learned about myself, but what else 00:21:05.930 --> 00:21:07.630 are you working on right now? 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:12.560 CJ: It's been a lot of little API integration work this week 00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:14.580 where we have a big Twilio. 00:21:14.770 --> 00:21:16.240 We're doing a big Twilio integration. 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:20.300 And I was like exploring, what does it look like to integrate directly 00:21:20.300 --> 00:21:25.940 with the messages API to send messages versus the conversations API, which 00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:27.520 is kind of like a higher level thing. 00:21:28.080 --> 00:21:31.020 And, they're kind of really two different use cases. 00:21:31.030 --> 00:21:34.650 So went down that path and got messaging working with photos 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:36.760 and images and whatever this week, which was kind of sweet. 00:21:37.300 --> 00:21:40.840 And then post hog is a tool that we use for product analytics. 00:21:40.840 --> 00:21:43.590 It's kind of you know, like for funnel tracking and things. 00:21:43.590 --> 00:21:46.760 And so we added a little integration there that will fetch 00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:49.040 some marketing traffic data. 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:51.110 so Put up a video about that. 00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:53.960 And then yeah, segment. 00:21:53.970 --> 00:21:58.490 And then we use deputy for like shift management and like 00:21:58.540 --> 00:22:00.170 crew scheduling and planning. 00:22:00.190 --> 00:22:05.530 And so we have a couple of hooks into their API where we are updating 00:22:05.530 --> 00:22:09.610 internal project information and building relationships and associations 00:22:09.620 --> 00:22:11.290 based on some, some web hooks there. 00:22:11.290 --> 00:22:13.140 So tons of fun stuff. 00:22:13.150 --> 00:22:15.710 This is the kind of work that I love with rails, just like 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:17.490 building out the data model. 00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:21.090 Building some API integrations, making sure that everything is going to sync 00:22:21.090 --> 00:22:25.250 well and be robust and like not fall over and you know, automate away a 00:22:25.250 --> 00:22:29.200 lot of manual things where people are, you know, they've got two tabs open 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:31.880 or they've got two windows in their browser open and they're jumping between 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:33.560 the two copying and pasting things. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:34.580 So, 00:22:35.355 --> 00:22:35.805 Colin: Nice. 00:22:36.270 --> 00:22:36.980 CJ: yeah, it's been fun. 00:22:37.985 --> 00:22:42.265 Colin: Are most of these like schedule job type things, or are they like 00:22:42.275 --> 00:22:44.325 ingest webhooks and things like that? 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:45.920 CJ: A little bit of both. 00:22:45.970 --> 00:22:49.710 We're using the same webhook pattern that you talked about at RailsConf. 00:22:49.760 --> 00:22:54.580 So yeah, we get the inbound webhooks for, all of these or different. 00:22:54.580 --> 00:22:56.770 Yeah, there's like different triggers, but mostly it's webhooks. 00:22:56.790 --> 00:23:01.360 And then we'll sometimes we'll go like turn around and refetch some data and 00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:03.720 then update that in the, in the database. 00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:07.830 The one that I'm working through right now is so sidekick. 00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:11.000 Has this concept of a scheduled set. 00:23:11.070 --> 00:23:16.070 So when you schedule jobs and sidekick to be performed later, like you can say, 00:23:16.110 --> 00:23:18.580 Oh, do this job in five minutes from now. 00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:20.210 So start the job in five minutes from now. 00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:21.710 And that has the scheduled set. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.800 And so I'm building like a module. 00:23:24.810 --> 00:23:26.500 Cause I didn't, I didn't find it anywhere. 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:31.600 That will debounce those requests because we might get like five or six 00:23:31.600 --> 00:23:37.570 different webhook post requests that are all related to like the shifts. 00:23:38.230 --> 00:23:39.770 For a certain project. 00:23:39.790 --> 00:23:43.350 And I want to just like go and get all the shifts for the project and update 00:23:43.350 --> 00:23:45.950 the data at once from the from the API. 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.350 But I don't want to do that every single time we get hit with a webhook. 00:23:49.730 --> 00:23:53.310 So I want to like schedule the job and then look at sidekicks 00:23:53.420 --> 00:23:58.635 scheduled set and see Did I already schedule this same exact job? 00:23:58.635 --> 00:24:02.395 And if I did, then like cancel one of them so that we only end up 00:24:02.445 --> 00:24:07.375 running it once like kind of the same way that you would debounce if 00:24:07.375 --> 00:24:10.435 you were doing auto, like building your own autocomplete in JavaScript. 00:24:10.445 --> 00:24:15.625 So like you, someone, as someone is typing, like every, every time they 00:24:15.625 --> 00:24:18.265 type it cancels the fetch request. 00:24:18.735 --> 00:24:23.305 Unless they haven't typed for like 300 milliseconds and then it'll like actually 00:24:23.305 --> 00:24:25.545 fire the request to go do the thing. 00:24:26.415 --> 00:24:30.085 sO something similar to that, but instead of keys being pressed, it's 00:24:30.085 --> 00:24:33.585 going to be webhooks coming in and then we'll eventually go out and 00:24:33.585 --> 00:24:35.725 fire the job, the underlying job. 00:24:35.725 --> 00:24:36.005 So, 00:24:36.705 --> 00:24:37.295 Colin: Nice. 00:24:37.755 --> 00:24:39.655 CJ: yeah, it's pretty, pretty fun stuff. 00:24:39.655 --> 00:24:41.318 So, Hmm. 00:24:41.345 --> 00:24:44.285 Colin: That reminds me of, there's, I went down this rabbit hole when 00:24:44.285 --> 00:24:47.925 I was at Orbit there's this new language called Ballerina, which is 00:24:47.925 --> 00:24:52.265 an integration specific language, like for building integrations. 00:24:52.305 --> 00:24:56.225 And what's cool about it is that if you go to ballerina. 00:24:56.825 --> 00:25:01.535 io, and you write the code, the code will actually generate a 00:25:01.535 --> 00:25:03.535 sequence diagram and vice versa. 00:25:03.915 --> 00:25:08.485 So like you can then see the, where the requests are and the gets and what 00:25:08.495 --> 00:25:10.195 happens with the data and stuff like that. 00:25:10.535 --> 00:25:13.355 But what's really cool, and I'm going to butcher this a little bit, maybe 00:25:13.355 --> 00:25:18.645 we'll talk about this in a future episode, is that it has the ability 00:25:18.645 --> 00:25:22.295 to keep track of requests over time. 00:25:22.365 --> 00:25:23.925 So you almost have like a lookup. 00:25:25.550 --> 00:25:30.430 like table so that if you're like ticket master and you're getting a whole bunch of 00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:33.530 requests within a certain amount of time, you can always check to see how many of 00:25:33.530 --> 00:25:35.250 the same requests have been made recently. 00:25:35.610 --> 00:25:38.850 Or like in this case, it's the same job, the same deputy 00:25:38.850 --> 00:25:40.070 schedule, whatever it might be. 00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:41.330 And so you're. 00:25:41.705 --> 00:25:44.925 Not necessarily having to keep track of that yourself and go query and see 00:25:44.925 --> 00:25:49.435 what happened, but like It allows you to query through time is the way it's 00:25:49.435 --> 00:25:52.775 like a little time machine Of being able to be like, okay, we're going to keep 00:25:52.775 --> 00:25:56.685 track of this as we go And then we can at any point be like, okay, we're going 00:25:56.685 --> 00:26:02.045 to use it as a rate limiter for example, or whatever You know ddos protection 00:26:02.455 --> 00:26:06.925 or in your case wait till we get all the things that we expect That we might 00:26:06.925 --> 00:26:11.505 get something for the next five or ten minutes Which is kind of promise like too, 00:26:11.505 --> 00:26:15.005 where it's like we expect something, and then once it's done, then we resolve it. 00:26:15.535 --> 00:26:17.495 But, yeah, I really like this. 00:26:17.525 --> 00:26:21.425 This was like a programming, it was like an integration company that built 00:26:21.435 --> 00:26:23.715 like an IDE for integrations, but then they're like, you know what, people 00:26:23.715 --> 00:26:27.025 don't want to use our proprietary software, let's give them a language. 00:26:27.550 --> 00:26:32.550 You end up with like a single executable type thing that can then two integrations. 00:26:32.550 --> 00:26:35.560 And I think it's probably too niche for most people. 00:26:35.560 --> 00:26:38.040 I don't think most companies are gonna be like, yeah, let's use a brand new 00:26:38.040 --> 00:26:39.650 language that I've never heard of before. 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:43.100 But doing things, especially webhooks that can come in out of 00:26:43.100 --> 00:26:47.580 order and all those issues that come up it's pretty interesting. 00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:50.650 CJ: Yeah, this looks like a really interesting language. 00:26:50.650 --> 00:26:56.440 It's almost like JavaScripty, but it's, or maybe TypeScripty but it's 00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.530 definitely also maybe Swift flavored too. 00:27:00.100 --> 00:27:00.490 I don't know. 00:27:00.490 --> 00:27:03.820 There's like definitely some interesting, some interesting stuff in here. 00:27:03.820 --> 00:27:04.380 It looks cool. 00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:09.050 Colin: yeah, I'll have to play around with it and report back, but I, I 00:27:09.070 --> 00:27:13.590 secretly want to do like a discord bot in this just to do it and then 00:27:13.600 --> 00:27:18.890 have the, the little language diagram or the, the process flow diagram that 00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:21.930 gets automatically generated and as you move it, you can see all that stuff. 00:27:22.600 --> 00:27:23.090 CJ: totally. 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:23.910 Yeah, that'd be cool. 00:27:25.090 --> 00:27:29.580 So you you've got something on here, learning something about yourself. 00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:31.710 What have you learned about yourself this week, Colin? 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.610 Colin: Yeah, I'm not learning any new things right now because even in this 00:27:36.610 --> 00:27:40.090 episode, I already now have like so many other things I want to build now. 00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:42.090 Including annotations of the web. 00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:46.910 So, and this isn't to make light of like real, you know in 00:27:47.170 --> 00:27:48.330 things that people deal with. 00:27:48.340 --> 00:27:52.090 But I, I, I would not be surprised if this is like undiagnosed ADHD. 00:27:52.650 --> 00:27:58.810 In that I do start things, I'm very easy to, to want to start new things and 00:27:58.810 --> 00:28:02.240 then not quite finish them and before I move on to the next thing, and, and 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:08.230 this applies to offline things too, so I've got, you know, half started wood 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:13.520 projects and, you know, crafts and leather projects and all sorts of stuff, so 00:28:14.030 --> 00:28:16.290 There was this really big popular thing. 00:28:16.290 --> 00:28:20.250 And like, again, 10 years ago it was really popular called startup weekend. 00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:24.745 And I think some people including like, Indie Hall is a 00:28:24.745 --> 00:28:25.925 coworking space out of Philly. 00:28:26.365 --> 00:28:29.995 They used to host finish weekends, which was just like pick a 00:28:29.995 --> 00:28:31.785 project and like finish it. 00:28:31.855 --> 00:28:34.775 Or maybe you put it to rest, like whatever that looks like. 00:28:34.785 --> 00:28:37.605 Maybe it doesn't need to be finished, but at least now you 00:28:37.605 --> 00:28:41.585 don't have this open ended thread running in your brain forever. 00:28:42.035 --> 00:28:45.405 And I dunno, right now with the holidays and things being a little bit more 00:28:45.755 --> 00:28:49.970 chill, I'm just like more aware that I have a lot of like, Running processes 00:28:49.970 --> 00:28:54.660 in my brain, and we need to like go in and just be like, okay, that either 00:28:54.660 --> 00:28:56.560 doesn't serve me anymore, it can go away. 00:28:56.890 --> 00:28:58.260 Or I really want to do that still. 00:28:58.270 --> 00:29:00.110 So let's write it down and get it out of my head. 00:29:00.650 --> 00:29:01.090 CJ: hmm. 00:29:01.270 --> 00:29:04.690 Colin: but I definitely, you know, maybe this is a screen thing. 00:29:04.700 --> 00:29:06.510 Maybe it's a chronically online thing. 00:29:06.510 --> 00:29:10.190 I'm not sure, but I can, it's, it's taking its toll and it's time 00:29:10.190 --> 00:29:13.630 to, time to wind some things down before starting some new things. 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.910 CJ: Was there, was there a particular like day or something 00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:21.180 that you started recognizing this? 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:23.560 Was there something like a breaking point where you're like, oh, okay, 00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:28.020 like shit, like I have too much going on or was it just kind of 00:29:28.020 --> 00:29:31.270 like a gradual realization or yeah. 00:29:31.350 --> 00:29:33.370 Colin: No it's been pretty gradual. 00:29:33.390 --> 00:29:36.990 Like, I mean, even this morning I walked to work to try to just like, you 00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:41.490 know, wake up early, didn't even wake up an alarm, which was kind of nice. 00:29:42.110 --> 00:29:44.950 And then I like go to like go on my walk and I have like. 00:29:45.225 --> 00:29:47.755 10 unfinished audible books, right? 00:29:47.755 --> 00:29:49.955 And so it's like, just like everywhere in my life, there's 00:29:49.965 --> 00:29:51.825 just this, like a bunch of things. 00:29:51.835 --> 00:29:53.935 There's not just one book to listen to an audible. 00:29:53.935 --> 00:29:54.535 There's 10. 00:29:54.985 --> 00:29:59.865 And this is obviously like, you know, they don't have to be finished by any date. 00:29:59.875 --> 00:30:00.855 They're just for fun. 00:30:01.335 --> 00:30:02.005 Things like that. 00:30:02.005 --> 00:30:05.435 So it's just more of like, I would like to finish some of these things. 00:30:05.465 --> 00:30:10.850 And before I either buy more books, start new projects, It's 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:12.090 just a good time for reflection. 00:30:12.100 --> 00:30:15.070 So I'm sure a lot of people out there probably resonate with this too. 00:30:15.620 --> 00:30:19.510 It's the same thing with buying more domains or, you know, getting 00:30:19.510 --> 00:30:24.900 excited about new annotation projects or building a competitor to mint. 00:30:24.930 --> 00:30:25.300 So 00:30:25.830 --> 00:30:26.220 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:26.750 --> 00:30:31.335 I, I, Totally, totally feel you like 1000%. 00:30:31.395 --> 00:30:35.985 And I think it definitely contributes to burnout too. 00:30:36.145 --> 00:30:43.225 Like when I, I mean Stripe and at my VR, I remember long running projects and 00:30:43.225 --> 00:30:48.575 long running to dues or responsibilities that just never had a clear. 00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:52.130 You know, point where there was a bow put on them and they kind of just 00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:57.400 were constantly requiring attention and energy and effort to keep them, 00:30:57.750 --> 00:30:59.220 keep the ball in the air basically. 00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:01.800 And there was no point where it was like, okay, now I'm either passing the 00:31:01.800 --> 00:31:05.590 ball to somebody else or I'm letting the ball go on the ground and that's okay. 00:31:05.590 --> 00:31:07.690 And like, we're going to move on from that. 00:31:07.790 --> 00:31:13.750 And yeah, even now, like as we wrap up today and head into code 00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:17.280 freeze week, there are two tickets that have been on my, like. 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.770 In progress list that I've been working on for months and months. 00:31:21.810 --> 00:31:26.210 And I'm just like, I'm at the, I finished the first 90 percent and I just have the 00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:28.680 last 90 percent to go, you know, like 00:31:29.185 --> 00:31:30.705 Colin: Which is always the case, right? 00:31:30.715 --> 00:31:31.175 The last 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:33.260 CJ: yeah, totally. 00:31:33.350 --> 00:31:33.690 Yeah. 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:34.930 It's yeah. 00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:38.660 I, so I 100 percent feel ya and, yeah, the, another thing 00:31:38.660 --> 00:31:43.900 too, that I found was that I was making a lot of goals most years. 00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:46.240 So around this time I would go through and be like, all right, next year 00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:50.370 I'm going to read 35 books and I'm going to, you know, lose all this 00:31:50.370 --> 00:31:51.460 weight and I'm going to do this. 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:52.110 I'm going to do that. 00:31:52.110 --> 00:31:57.510 And then I kept those so front and center that I kind of like lost sight of. 00:31:58.260 --> 00:32:02.560 Some relationships that were really important to me and maybe sleep or, 00:32:02.570 --> 00:32:05.300 you know, like there's other things that are actually important, but you 00:32:05.300 --> 00:32:07.150 might not put them on your goal list. 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:12.110 And so like you start to, or I, I started to like, yeah. 00:32:12.190 --> 00:32:14.330 Have have a rough time those years. 00:32:14.330 --> 00:32:16.430 And so I think it was maybe last year. 00:32:16.430 --> 00:32:19.840 My goal was have no goals or I don't know if it was the year before, but there was 00:32:19.840 --> 00:32:23.210 a year where I was like, I'm going to explicitly not have any goals this year. 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.800 And there was also like a year where I said. 00:32:27.655 --> 00:32:30.105 Instead of tracking, like, okay, I finished this book. 00:32:30.145 --> 00:32:33.585 I'm going to read as much as I want or listen to as much as I want of the book. 00:32:33.605 --> 00:32:37.675 And if I don't finish it, that means that it wasn't good enough for it to 00:32:37.675 --> 00:32:39.665 like, keep my attention past that point. 00:32:39.695 --> 00:32:43.335 I'm still going to market as like, I read it because like, I got to a point 00:32:43.365 --> 00:32:47.465 where like, I got out of it, whatever I needed to get out of it and I'm, you know, 00:32:47.475 --> 00:32:49.985 moving on and I think that should be okay. 00:32:49.985 --> 00:32:50.215 Right. 00:32:50.215 --> 00:32:53.885 Like just picking up a book and getting what you need out of it at that moment. 00:32:53.915 --> 00:32:55.155 And then yeah, I don't know. 00:32:55.990 --> 00:32:56.310 Colin: Yeah. 00:32:56.970 --> 00:33:00.810 Well, and since this comes out in January, I think I'll, I'll make that statement 00:33:00.810 --> 00:33:07.950 for myself, which is no, no new goals or rather like no new projects in 2024, like. 00:33:08.780 --> 00:33:11.690 I think it's going to be a season of winding down some things. 00:33:11.690 --> 00:33:15.750 And we talked about it in a few episodes ago about the coworking space and that's 00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:18.120 still going, still very involved in that. 00:33:18.260 --> 00:33:23.460 We have some, some good glimmers of hope there that it's not as draining as it was 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:28.110 a few episodes ago, which is probably a few months ago once this comes out, but 00:33:28.700 --> 00:33:33.580 So, I think, yeah, not being afraid of quitting things, even if it's a book, and 00:33:33.580 --> 00:33:36.790 still counting it, is like, yeah, maybe you're not going to recommend that book 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.300 to anyone else, but you gave it a shot. 00:33:40.295 --> 00:33:40.695 CJ: Yep. 00:33:40.865 --> 00:33:41.295 Yep. 00:33:41.585 --> 00:33:42.005 Totally. 00:33:42.570 --> 00:33:46.800 Colin: yeah, so more reflective than anything, but realizing I don't need 00:33:46.800 --> 00:33:50.370 to go learn a bunch of new things just because we have some time off, either. 00:33:51.615 --> 00:33:52.235 CJ: Absolutely. 00:33:54.385 --> 00:34:02.075 So, the other day, I was scrolling through Reddit, and this post popped 00:34:02.075 --> 00:34:07.265 up that's, was about the missing semester of computer science from MIT. 00:34:07.815 --> 00:34:09.995 I don't know if you've seen this or heard about this, this 00:34:09.995 --> 00:34:11.025 was like, brand new to me. 00:34:11.595 --> 00:34:16.515 It's like a bunch of topics that you don't end up talking about in normal classes 00:34:16.555 --> 00:34:19.415 in at MIT in your CS program, I guess. 00:34:19.965 --> 00:34:26.255 And one of them, the third edition is about editors and the instructors 00:34:26.985 --> 00:34:28.455 teach, they all like use Vim. 00:34:28.455 --> 00:34:29.415 And so they teach Vim. 00:34:29.965 --> 00:34:31.835 And I was like, Oh, this is super interesting. 00:34:31.845 --> 00:34:35.715 Let me watch the, watch the talk and see kind of like what they get into. 00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:42.990 And there were a couple of features and like tools, like high level core 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.800 fundamental tools that I had just never used or never like thought about. 00:34:46.830 --> 00:34:50.190 And so even though, yeah, I guess I've been using them for. 00:34:50.710 --> 00:34:51.870 Almost 20 years now. 00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:57.940 And I like look at it and I'm like, holy moly, like there's still so much to learn. 00:34:58.410 --> 00:35:02.900 So like this, this week I, yeah, I like have been practicing 00:35:02.910 --> 00:35:07.460 using this this command called global, like the global command. 00:35:07.460 --> 00:35:09.720 So colon G in your editor. 00:35:09.720 --> 00:35:12.150 So yeah, like it is. 00:35:13.175 --> 00:35:17.765 It's just like mind blowing to me how you can use a tool for a really long 00:35:17.765 --> 00:35:21.655 time and, you know, you think you've, you think you've got it and there's 00:35:21.655 --> 00:35:24.245 just so much, so much more depth to it. 00:35:24.245 --> 00:35:28.405 I feel like there's, you know this is like unlocking an entire new 00:35:28.405 --> 00:35:32.105 mode of editing that like, I didn't even know about or like think about. 00:35:32.535 --> 00:35:35.005 And so yeah, really, really excited to play around with that. 00:35:35.035 --> 00:35:39.665 And, it also like re sparked or rekindled my interest in playing with VimGolf. 00:35:40.655 --> 00:35:43.215 So I gotta get in there and mess around. 00:35:43.215 --> 00:35:48.605 I think that like playing a few holes or whatever of VimGolf, 00:35:49.155 --> 00:35:52.445 definitely there's like a few things you pick up every time you play. 00:35:52.475 --> 00:35:58.175 And so what I love about VimGolf is that when you submit your 00:35:58.175 --> 00:36:03.965 like solution or whatever your, your putt, you can also see. 00:36:04.835 --> 00:36:08.945 People like a submission, that's just like one keystroke better than yours. 00:36:09.325 --> 00:36:12.555 And so you can like look through the keystroke and see like, what did 00:36:12.555 --> 00:36:14.795 they do that was different for me? 00:36:14.815 --> 00:36:17.405 And sometimes there's like little nuggets in there and you're like, what the heck? 00:36:17.455 --> 00:36:18.805 Like, what does that character do? 00:36:18.805 --> 00:36:21.185 Or like, what does this, you know, pattern do or whatever? 00:36:21.185 --> 00:36:21.655 And so 00:36:23.370 --> 00:36:23.890 Colin: vim annotations. 00:36:24.115 --> 00:36:26.965 CJ: yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:36:27.015 --> 00:36:28.365 It's I don't know. 00:36:28.545 --> 00:36:29.885 It's, it's an amazing editor. 00:36:29.885 --> 00:36:31.215 I love it obviously. 00:36:31.295 --> 00:36:36.025 And I, yeah, so that's what I'm learning this week. 00:36:36.860 --> 00:36:37.150 Yeah. 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.440 Colin: I'm going to hold off because I know that it's on my list of things to 00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:45.390 learn one day, but I think I've spent two minutes in Vim or I'll go in there 00:36:46.040 --> 00:36:48.490 just to do like my rebase interactively. 00:36:48.490 --> 00:36:49.100 And that's it. 00:36:49.140 --> 00:36:52.930 I'm very like, I can turn the W into an F 00:36:53.640 --> 00:36:54.090 CJ: Yeah. 00:36:54.150 --> 00:36:54.560 Yeah. 00:36:54.630 --> 00:36:55.350 It's yeah. 00:36:55.390 --> 00:36:56.485 Colin: and squash things. 00:36:57.160 --> 00:36:59.750 CJ: I think VSCode is the winner these days. 00:36:59.750 --> 00:37:04.140 Like for sure VSCode has become the dominant editor and I expect 00:37:04.140 --> 00:37:05.720 that everyone will use VSCode. 00:37:05.750 --> 00:37:10.490 I think people, some people will use Vim mode in there, but it seems 00:37:10.490 --> 00:37:15.460 like most people are using VSCode these days and yeah, so whatever 00:37:15.460 --> 00:37:17.200 you're most productive in, go for it. 00:37:17.560 --> 00:37:17.850 So 00:37:18.305 --> 00:37:19.025 Colin: exactly. 00:37:19.465 --> 00:37:20.585 Finish those projects. 00:37:20.585 --> 00:37:22.505 Don't, don't go pick up Dvorak. 00:37:22.505 --> 00:37:26.265 Don't go pick up Vim unless you're done with your projects. 00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:27.180 CJ: Yes. 00:37:27.180 --> 00:37:27.240 Yes. 00:37:27.240 --> 00:37:27.780 Yes. 00:37:27.925 --> 00:37:31.145 Colin: to pick them both up at the same time and you won't get anything done. 00:37:31.620 --> 00:37:31.980 CJ: Yeah. 00:37:32.610 --> 00:37:35.760 But going back to this, like the missing semester, there's some 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:36.810 really interesting stuff in here. 00:37:36.810 --> 00:37:40.620 They've got like they'll teach Git and some command line 00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:42.260 stuff and metaprogramming. 00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:47.150 So definitely a handful of topics that would be useful for most engineers. 00:37:47.150 --> 00:37:47.890 So we'll 00:37:47.985 --> 00:37:50.705 Colin: I love that they just, they just took like a whole bunch of 00:37:50.705 --> 00:37:52.285 stuff and shoved it into Potpourri. 00:37:55.015 --> 00:37:56.970 Markdown APIs. 00:37:56.970 --> 00:37:59.700 Keyboard remapping, GitHub. 00:38:00.550 --> 00:38:01.070 Amazing. 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:01.930 CJ: Oh yeah. 00:38:02.660 --> 00:38:03.030 Colin: I see. 00:38:03.030 --> 00:38:07.770 So these are, this is a whole class or at least like set up like a class. 00:38:08.630 --> 00:38:09.090 No, it is. 00:38:09.100 --> 00:38:11.020 It's actually taught at MIT. 00:38:12.050 --> 00:38:12.530 CJ: Yes. 00:38:12.580 --> 00:38:13.970 Colin: It's co taught by three people. 00:38:13.970 --> 00:38:16.210 And then there's like a bunch of sessions. 00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:17.610 Amazing. 00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:18.840 I'm going to have to take this. 00:38:19.460 --> 00:38:20.970 I've, I've been going back and forth. 00:38:21.140 --> 00:38:22.940 I guess this is, this is the same thing. 00:38:22.940 --> 00:38:26.600 It's like on whether or not it would be helpful to go back to school for CS. 00:38:27.200 --> 00:38:29.570 And I don't, I think, I don't think it makes sense. 00:38:30.030 --> 00:38:34.710 I think with tools like this, advent of code, all sorts of 00:38:34.710 --> 00:38:36.620 stuff that you can learn so much 00:38:36.790 --> 00:38:37.260 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:38:37.515 --> 00:38:38.165 Colin: being online. 00:38:38.405 --> 00:38:38.775 So. 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:40.010 CJ: Yeah. 00:38:40.020 --> 00:38:45.330 I also sometimes dream about going back to school and studying like mechanical 00:38:45.330 --> 00:38:49.240 engineering or electrical engineering, or, you know, like some like other thing 00:38:49.240 --> 00:38:50.560 where I can play with Legos all day. 00:38:52.310 --> 00:38:58.020 But yeah, I think for computer science in particular like there's so much 00:38:58.020 --> 00:39:02.020 content online and so many videos and, you know, open courseware and whatever. 00:39:02.020 --> 00:39:04.540 And that's probably true for the topics that I'm interested in too. 00:39:04.540 --> 00:39:04.780 I just 00:39:04.895 --> 00:39:07.685 Colin: And you can play with Legos anyway, CJ. 00:39:07.975 --> 00:39:08.735 CJ: Yes, I know. 00:39:10.325 --> 00:39:10.625 Yeah. 00:39:10.695 --> 00:39:11.955 Any day, any day. 00:39:12.875 --> 00:39:16.295 Colin: I, I do miss the the Thanos Lego gauntlet behind you that 00:39:16.295 --> 00:39:18.105 you had in your previous setup. 00:39:18.585 --> 00:39:20.145 CJ: We snapped a finger off like 00:39:20.225 --> 00:39:22.305 Colin: Oh no, the snap. 00:39:24.915 --> 00:39:29.485 CJ: Yeah, this was one at a RubyConf it was a retool prize. 00:39:29.495 --> 00:39:34.325 So shout out the retool DevRel team for hooking it up. 00:39:35.145 --> 00:39:35.665 Colin: Noted. 00:39:35.945 --> 00:39:39.145 Yeah, I need to see how we get like a Discord Lego set or something. 00:39:39.255 --> 00:39:39.825 That'd be cool. 00:39:40.195 --> 00:39:41.035 CJ: that would be awesome. 00:39:41.575 --> 00:39:41.895 Colin: Yeah. 00:39:42.365 --> 00:39:45.265 I think we're getting to the end of time here, but we'll definitely 00:39:45.665 --> 00:39:47.795 put some links to that course. 00:39:48.325 --> 00:39:51.765 And all the different, if you want to try out co pilot money, I'll put my link 00:39:51.765 --> 00:39:54.315 in there and we can help each other out. 00:39:54.740 --> 00:39:56.910 CJ: Yeah, drop the affiliate links for sure. 00:39:58.005 --> 00:39:58.345 Colin: yeah, 00:39:59.410 --> 00:39:59.740 CJ: Cool. 00:39:59.855 --> 00:40:00.675 Colin: I think that'll do it. 00:40:01.110 --> 00:40:01.620 CJ: Yeah. 00:40:01.690 --> 00:40:03.560 As always, you can head over to buildandlearn. 00:40:03.560 --> 00:40:06.080 dev and that's where you'll find all these links. 00:40:06.170 --> 00:40:07.610 So that's it for this episode. 00:40:07.770 --> 00:40:08.350 See you next time. 00:40:09.495 --> 00:40:09.925 Colin: See ya. 00:40:11.250 --> 00:40:11.810 CJ: Bye friends.