1 00:00:05,683 --> 00:00:09,103 Good morning Grid Connections listeners and for those of you who may be listening 2 00:00:09,103 --> 00:00:13,083 for the first time, the Grid Connections podcast is the show where we unravel the 3 00:00:13,083 --> 00:00:17,373 complexities of electric transportation, renewable energy, and our electrical power 4 00:00:17,373 --> 00:00:19,443 grid that ties all of them together. 5 00:00:19,443 --> 00:00:23,833 I'm your host Chase and in this exciting second part of our two episode feature, we 6 00:00:23,833 --> 00:00:26,843 continue our deep dive with the esteemed Rustam Coacher. 7 00:00:26,843 --> 00:00:30,863 This is a great episode, but also check out part one if you haven't already. 8 00:00:30,863 --> 00:00:34,547 Rustam was behind Daimler's electric Cascadia trucking program. 9 00:00:34,547 --> 00:00:39,047 Now a retired trucking executive, he returns to shed light on the intricacies 10 00:00:39,047 --> 00:00:44,417 of total cost of ownership, or TCO for those in the know, the disruptive entrance 11 00:00:44,417 --> 00:00:49,017 of the Tesla semi, the revolutionary vehicle to great technology that electric 12 00:00:49,017 --> 00:00:51,507 trucking unlocks, and much more. 13 00:00:51,507 --> 00:00:55,827 Building on the momentum of our last episode, we further explore the 14 00:00:55,827 --> 00:00:59,897 transformative changes sweeping through the trucking industry guided by Rustam's 15 00:00:59,897 --> 00:01:02,825 unparalleled expertise and firsthand experiences. 16 00:01:03,091 --> 00:01:06,441 This discussion is packed with insights on navigating the challenges and seizing the 17 00:01:06,441 --> 00:01:09,691 opportunities of electrification in the transport sector. 18 00:01:09,751 --> 00:01:13,631 Before we roll into today's riveting discussion, a quick reminder. 19 00:01:13,631 --> 00:01:16,481 If you found our previous episode enlightening, you'll certainly want to 20 00:01:16,481 --> 00:01:17,691 share this one. 21 00:01:17,691 --> 00:01:21,181 Pass along to someone in your circle who's as passionate about the future of 22 00:01:21,181 --> 00:01:22,751 transportation as you are. 23 00:01:22,751 --> 00:01:26,431 Your support helps us bring more engaging content your way. 24 00:01:26,471 --> 00:01:28,291 Also, don't let the conversation in here. 25 00:01:28,291 --> 00:01:31,821 Stay connected with the latest in tech and transport by signing up for our weekly 26 00:01:31,821 --> 00:01:32,669 newsletter. 27 00:01:32,669 --> 00:01:36,059 It's your direct line to the pulse of innovation and the story shaping our world 28 00:01:36,059 --> 00:01:39,439 along with behind the scenes looks of the great connection podcasts and getting an 29 00:01:39,439 --> 00:01:41,659 early peek of what's coming next. 30 00:01:41,739 --> 00:01:43,939 We're always looking to hear from you as well. 31 00:01:43,939 --> 00:01:48,239 Our listeners make the difference to what makes a good and great podcast. 32 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:49,839 So please reach out to us. 33 00:01:49,839 --> 00:01:54,479 Do you have a burning question, a topic you're curious about, or a guest you'd 34 00:01:54,479 --> 00:01:56,219 love to hear on great connections? 35 00:01:56,219 --> 00:01:57,419 Reach out to us. 36 00:01:57,419 --> 00:02:00,765 Your input helps us make the podcast even more compelling. 37 00:02:00,979 --> 00:02:04,719 For those intrigued by Rustam's journey and eager to delve deeper into his current 38 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:06,699 projects, make sure to check out the show notes. 39 00:02:06,699 --> 00:02:09,769 There's a wealth of information and resources waiting for you after the 40 00:02:09,769 --> 00:02:10,739 episode. 41 00:02:10,739 --> 00:02:14,959 Now let's plug back in with Rustam Kocher for the second part of our conversation. 42 00:02:14,999 --> 00:02:16,735 With that, enjoy. 43 00:02:16,851 --> 00:02:21,291 So from an operational standpoint, again, the technology is there. 44 00:02:21,291 --> 00:02:24,511 Trucks are capable of doing probably 80 % of the routes. 45 00:02:24,511 --> 00:02:28,471 And right now long haul is what we would call a corner case. 46 00:02:28,551 --> 00:02:34,861 It's, if you have a graph that shows what the vehicle is capable of doing, it kind 47 00:02:34,861 --> 00:02:37,191 of goes like this and it leaves things in the corner. 48 00:02:37,191 --> 00:02:41,311 Well, that corner case keeps getting smaller and smaller as charging speed goes 49 00:02:41,311 --> 00:02:46,031 up, battery density is improved, and the overall capability of the trucks. 50 00:02:46,323 --> 00:02:52,433 And right now, all of the major truck OEMs, Freightliner, Packard, Navistar, 51 00:02:52,433 --> 00:02:56,803 Volvo, are on generation one or generation two of their trucks. 52 00:02:56,803 --> 00:03:02,703 None of them have started from the wheels up to design a truck simply to be 53 00:03:02,703 --> 00:03:02,983 electric. 54 00:03:02,983 --> 00:03:09,493 They're all using components of drivetrain, of chassis, of frame that are 55 00:03:09,493 --> 00:03:11,003 pulled over from diesel days. 56 00:03:11,003 --> 00:03:14,363 The only one that's actually designed it from the ground up to be electric is 57 00:03:14,363 --> 00:03:15,157 Tesla. 58 00:03:15,347 --> 00:03:20,947 And so when the major OEMs that have this tremendous depth of knowledge of the 59 00:03:20,947 --> 00:03:27,607 industry actually get those, what I'll call Gen 5 vehicles done into the market, 60 00:03:27,607 --> 00:03:31,087 they're going to be tremendously capable and those corner cases are going to 61 00:03:31,087 --> 00:03:32,075 continue to shrink. 62 00:03:35,259 --> 00:03:41,359 And so when you say Gen five, does that mean, and I understand this is a difficult 63 00:03:41,359 --> 00:03:41,759 question. 64 00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:44,049 Is that five years away? 65 00:03:44,049 --> 00:03:45,149 Is that 10 years away? 66 00:03:45,149 --> 00:03:47,079 Is that three to five years away? 67 00:03:47,079 --> 00:03:48,179 You think? 68 00:03:48,359 --> 00:03:49,543 Yeah. 69 00:03:49,543 --> 00:03:53,443 cobbled together all these parts and you stuck a, you pulled out the old diesel 70 00:03:53,443 --> 00:03:56,083 engine and you stuck in the battery and the motor and hey, it works. 71 00:03:56,083 --> 00:03:57,163 That's Gen one. 72 00:03:57,163 --> 00:04:01,183 Gen two is, well, how do we make this like a smooth operating experience for the 73 00:04:01,183 --> 00:04:02,963 customers and maybe get it to a couple. 74 00:04:02,963 --> 00:04:07,343 Gen three is series production, which is where, like I said, Freightliner, both of 75 00:04:07,343 --> 00:04:08,323 those guys are on. 76 00:04:08,323 --> 00:04:10,753 Gen four is the iteration of that. 77 00:04:10,753 --> 00:04:12,103 You make it better. 78 00:04:12,103 --> 00:04:15,251 You put more components that are designed for that. 79 00:04:15,251 --> 00:04:21,501 use case into the vehicle so instead of some still cobbled together things maybe 80 00:04:21,501 --> 00:04:25,021 you've consolidated four or five components into one things like that and 81 00:04:25,021 --> 00:04:29,991 then Gen 5 is okay we've started with a clean slate of sheet of paper we're going 82 00:04:29,991 --> 00:04:33,021 to design it from the ground up to be electric if we wanted it to be electric 83 00:04:33,021 --> 00:04:37,851 from day one what should it you know how should it look how should it operate how 84 00:04:37,851 --> 00:04:40,307 should the frame rails be you know 85 00:04:40,307 --> 00:04:44,577 Because right now, every frame rail in the world on a diesel truck has what's called 86 00:04:44,577 --> 00:04:45,047 a splay. 87 00:04:45,047 --> 00:04:49,107 It goes straight and then it has a little bit an opening to drop the engine into. 88 00:04:49,107 --> 00:04:50,707 You don't need that in a battery electric truck. 89 00:04:50,707 --> 00:04:52,937 You even need frame rails in a battery electric truck. 90 00:04:52,937 --> 00:04:55,877 I mean, you just you build a thing on batteries like Tesla's doing. 91 00:04:55,877 --> 00:04:56,847 I don't know. 92 00:04:56,847 --> 00:04:59,097 So that needs to be investigated. 93 00:04:59,097 --> 00:05:04,337 And like I said, those guys have this huge depth of understanding of how to put 94 00:05:04,337 --> 00:05:08,067 together commercial vehicles that will stand the test of time and be tremendously 95 00:05:08,067 --> 00:05:10,477 capable and they'll get it done. 96 00:05:12,891 --> 00:05:18,561 Do you think, so it's kind of interesting, like the Tesla semi -program from what we 97 00:05:18,561 --> 00:05:22,141 know kind of looking on the outside, they had a person who had actually worked at 98 00:05:22,141 --> 00:05:25,991 Dialog, kind of originally at the first part, kind of launched the program and it 99 00:05:25,991 --> 00:05:29,751 obviously took a long while for it to get going and now it's kind of going. 100 00:05:30,031 --> 00:05:32,171 It's still ramping up, honestly. 101 00:05:32,171 --> 00:05:36,219 But do you think that they have kind of... 102 00:05:36,219 --> 00:05:40,229 When you talk about that example specifically that it takes these other 103 00:05:40,229 --> 00:05:43,979 people to kind of get to a Gen four, Gen five to do a clean sheet. 104 00:05:44,219 --> 00:05:48,809 Do you think that that does give us a pretty significant large advantage in 105 00:05:48,809 --> 00:05:49,099 that? 106 00:05:49,099 --> 00:05:52,179 Or do you think it's still by the time it takes them to ramp up? 107 00:05:52,179 --> 00:05:54,675 Can you share a little bit more of why you think that? 108 00:05:54,675 --> 00:05:56,955 because they've started with Gen 5. 109 00:05:58,995 --> 00:06:05,035 And I've never worked with sharper, more intelligent people in my life than the 110 00:06:05,035 --> 00:06:06,895 folks that I worked with at Tesla. 111 00:06:07,635 --> 00:06:10,595 These guys, they work really, really hard. 112 00:06:10,595 --> 00:06:13,415 They're some of the smartest people, like I said, that I've ever met. 113 00:06:13,415 --> 00:06:16,917 And when they encounter problems... 114 00:06:17,139 --> 00:06:21,219 to them it's a challenge and they just go, oh boy, let's solve this. 115 00:06:21,219 --> 00:06:26,619 And so you get this thing that in other OEMs it would be like, oh, who screwed 116 00:06:26,619 --> 00:06:27,129 that up? 117 00:06:27,129 --> 00:06:30,579 Oh, you designed that bolt and flange feature. 118 00:06:30,579 --> 00:06:35,129 Well, let's hang this on you and then just figure out a way and how do we manage the 119 00:06:35,129 --> 00:06:36,249 cost of fixing that problem? 120 00:06:36,249 --> 00:06:38,279 Tesla's like, oh, we've got a solution for that. 121 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:39,079 Let's go. 122 00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:40,599 And then they're onto the next. 123 00:06:40,599 --> 00:06:43,759 And it's a complete different mindset with these guys. 124 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:44,499 So. 125 00:06:44,499 --> 00:06:49,019 Like I said, the major OEMs have this tremendous depth and knowledge of this 126 00:06:49,019 --> 00:06:49,399 industry. 127 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:52,739 And I have faith that they'll get a lot of things right. 128 00:06:52,739 --> 00:06:55,339 The speed at which they'll get them right, I don't know. 129 00:06:55,339 --> 00:06:57,045 It's going to be a challenge. 130 00:06:59,483 --> 00:06:59,673 Yeah. 131 00:06:59,673 --> 00:07:03,423 And it is kind of been interesting, um, given that this conversation we're having 132 00:07:03,423 --> 00:07:07,923 right now, and you compare it to once again, the light duty realm where, uh, 133 00:07:07,923 --> 00:07:10,633 Tesla was kind of scaling up and I don't want to make this all rah rah rah about 134 00:07:10,633 --> 00:07:11,023 Tesla. 135 00:07:11,023 --> 00:07:15,563 Obviously there's BYD and other kind of companies approaching, uh, essentially, 136 00:07:15,563 --> 00:07:19,053 and I know they're startups, but they're kind of approaching it more from that 137 00:07:19,053 --> 00:07:19,603 mindset. 138 00:07:19,603 --> 00:07:24,379 But when Tesla was scaling up, you had the GMs, the Fords of the world and like, Oh, 139 00:07:24,379 --> 00:07:25,519 That's cute and all. 140 00:07:25,519 --> 00:07:28,179 If this becomes a real thing or we actually need to do electric vehicles, 141 00:07:28,179 --> 00:07:30,119 we've been making cars for a hundred years. 142 00:07:30,119 --> 00:07:31,479 We'll figure it out. 143 00:07:31,479 --> 00:07:37,389 And to some extent Ford's been doing it, but like I just the last conversation we 144 00:07:37,389 --> 00:07:41,579 had on the podcast, we had someone talking about the book they had written on GM and 145 00:07:41,579 --> 00:07:47,009 the old team platform and that exact experience where it's like, no, this is a 146 00:07:47,009 --> 00:07:48,559 very different beast altogether. 147 00:07:48,559 --> 00:07:53,049 There's car there, both electric vehicles and combustion vehicles have wheels. 148 00:07:53,083 --> 00:07:56,523 Uh, but you start getting to some of the other things and exactly like you're 149 00:07:56,523 --> 00:07:59,243 telling about, uh, with the frame rails and these sorts of things. 150 00:07:59,243 --> 00:08:04,531 It's, it's also a very different beast and you kind of have to, um, 151 00:08:04,683 --> 00:08:09,933 designed a battery pack that did not take into consideration the fact that lithium 152 00:08:09,933 --> 00:08:13,683 batteries expand and contract. 153 00:08:14,623 --> 00:08:18,333 And you know what happens with the Coke can if you put it in the freezer, it 154 00:08:18,333 --> 00:08:20,703 eventually explodes, right? 155 00:08:23,347 --> 00:08:25,927 It was a major OYM then. 156 00:08:28,907 --> 00:08:30,089 Company law room. 157 00:08:30,089 --> 00:08:33,079 couple of semis having some issues in the news recently. 158 00:08:33,719 --> 00:08:35,861 But no, I understand. 159 00:08:35,895 --> 00:08:37,915 but it was just an idea. 160 00:08:37,915 --> 00:08:42,765 But yeah, yes, there's a tremendous amount of learning that needs to be done in this 161 00:08:42,765 --> 00:08:43,675 industry. 162 00:08:44,975 --> 00:08:45,727 Yep. 163 00:08:47,103 --> 00:08:54,523 So I I promised it might ask a few more of these questions just So we kind of talked 164 00:08:54,523 --> 00:08:58,833 about around weight and I I think we're coming agreement and I think he's even 165 00:08:58,833 --> 00:09:02,133 sees it where it's like Yeah, anything unless it's long haul, but even then it's 166 00:09:02,133 --> 00:09:02,723 it's getting there. 167 00:09:02,723 --> 00:09:09,123 The question more is kind of when it's gonna happen Yeah So we kind of address 168 00:09:09,123 --> 00:09:10,739 the weight now 169 00:09:10,853 --> 00:09:15,703 What would be really, I think, most interesting is, obviously battery life and 170 00:09:15,703 --> 00:09:19,903 range play into this, but on a larger comparison, the difference in maintenance 171 00:09:19,903 --> 00:09:23,883 versus a combustion truck and electric truck. 172 00:09:23,963 --> 00:09:29,423 Because, yeah, first 150 ,000, 200 ,000 miles, yeah, there's kind of some pros and 173 00:09:29,423 --> 00:09:29,613 cons. 174 00:09:29,613 --> 00:09:31,143 Obviously, you got oil change and stuff. 175 00:09:31,143 --> 00:09:34,893 But then you start getting further in the lifetime, and it is wild how much 176 00:09:34,893 --> 00:09:38,419 maintenance and how big of things that a diesel engine requires. 177 00:09:38,419 --> 00:09:43,219 you go from literally hundreds of moving parts, yeah, there's literally hundreds if 178 00:09:43,219 --> 00:09:46,259 not thousands of moving parts on a modern engine. 179 00:09:46,259 --> 00:09:50,219 And you go from that to double digits with the battery electric. 180 00:09:51,259 --> 00:09:57,169 The best view we have on that is the New York City fleet that has undergone a 181 00:09:57,169 --> 00:10:01,159 massive transformation to electrification over the last five years. 182 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:04,719 And they're seeing huge drops in maintenance costs. 183 00:10:04,999 --> 00:10:07,179 And that is due to electrification. 184 00:10:07,179 --> 00:10:07,975 So. 185 00:10:07,975 --> 00:10:11,565 Yes, sometimes the battery pack does have to be replaced. 186 00:10:11,565 --> 00:10:13,095 It's quite rare. 187 00:10:13,415 --> 00:10:15,775 Yes, sometimes a fuse gets blown. 188 00:10:15,775 --> 00:10:18,275 Sometimes you get a short somewhere. 189 00:10:18,435 --> 00:10:23,195 But on the whole, we know that battery electric vehicles require tremendously 190 00:10:23,195 --> 00:10:26,615 less maintenance than ICEs do. 191 00:10:26,615 --> 00:10:32,965 And it's just the number of moving parts is a big number with ICE and it's a small 192 00:10:32,965 --> 00:10:34,535 number with battery electric. 193 00:10:35,251 --> 00:10:36,511 And you don't get torque. 194 00:10:36,511 --> 00:10:42,071 So if you've ever watched a, sorry, if you've ever watched an ICE large class 195 00:10:42,071 --> 00:10:47,621 eight diesel truck accelerate off the line, off a stoplight or something, the 196 00:10:47,621 --> 00:10:52,301 entire chassis twists because of the rotational mass in an internal combustion 197 00:10:52,301 --> 00:10:52,791 engine. 198 00:10:52,791 --> 00:10:57,451 And there's all this torsion and twisting and vibration that goes on in this hugely 199 00:10:57,451 --> 00:10:58,491 powerful truck. 200 00:10:58,491 --> 00:11:00,811 And none of it happens with a battery electric. 201 00:11:00,811 --> 00:11:01,991 So. 202 00:11:02,109 --> 00:11:07,509 All of these OEMs built these trucks to last 1 .2 million miles with all these 203 00:11:07,509 --> 00:11:09,479 rotational and torsional forces. 204 00:11:09,479 --> 00:11:13,579 If you don't have those, how long is that truck chassis going to last? 205 00:11:13,979 --> 00:11:14,999 4 million miles? 206 00:11:14,999 --> 00:11:16,197 We don't know. 207 00:11:19,451 --> 00:11:22,591 Well, I think there's two things to like even looking at batteries. 208 00:11:22,591 --> 00:11:24,741 Um, let's say you have to replace them and stuff. 209 00:11:24,741 --> 00:11:29,611 I think the, the infrastructure and support, uh, supply chain for this is 210 00:11:29,611 --> 00:11:33,361 already growing and kind of already there, but it's only going to take off even more 211 00:11:33,361 --> 00:11:34,351 where. 212 00:11:34,531 --> 00:11:36,961 Like you have to replace a diesel engine. 213 00:11:36,961 --> 00:11:41,621 I want to say almost every 500 ,000 miles or I mean, it can be even shorter, but I 214 00:11:41,621 --> 00:11:43,091 think that's like the base warranties. 215 00:11:43,091 --> 00:11:45,651 Like, yeah, yeah, that too. 216 00:11:45,731 --> 00:11:46,813 And so. 217 00:11:47,643 --> 00:11:50,133 While rare, let's say everything does go wrong with the batteries. 218 00:11:50,133 --> 00:11:55,193 The fact is you can still recycle them and the infrastructure and the supply chain 219 00:11:55,193 --> 00:11:58,503 and like you look at LFP batteries too, it's just like, it's really becoming 220 00:11:58,503 --> 00:12:00,123 simpler and simpler. 221 00:12:00,123 --> 00:12:04,923 And it's really becoming more of a thing of just getting the actual manufacturing 222 00:12:04,923 --> 00:12:11,273 base built here more versus all of the supply chain, all of the parts that you 223 00:12:11,273 --> 00:12:15,173 need for going into a diesel engine, the spark plugs, all these funds, fun little 224 00:12:15,173 --> 00:12:16,507 things that really kind of. 225 00:12:16,507 --> 00:12:18,107 go away pretty quickly. 226 00:12:18,107 --> 00:12:20,807 And even when you talk, you just mentioned fuses. 227 00:12:20,807 --> 00:12:24,117 And that was kind of funny to me because like you look at Tesla who does kind of 228 00:12:24,117 --> 00:12:28,667 take the clean sheet approach and you get to like a gen five vehicle, you might, I 229 00:12:28,667 --> 00:12:32,277 don't know if they do this in the semi, but I'd be surprised if they don't use E 230 00:12:32,277 --> 00:12:35,767 fuses or other things that actually kind of get rid of that problem altogether, 231 00:12:35,767 --> 00:12:37,867 like they do in their regular cars. 232 00:12:37,867 --> 00:12:40,907 And if they're not, I'm sure they want to go there. 233 00:12:40,967 --> 00:12:43,817 Um, so no, that, that, that's really interesting. 234 00:12:43,817 --> 00:12:44,573 And I, I, 235 00:12:44,573 --> 00:12:49,713 on that point, so all those things are in place already for the infrastructure and 236 00:12:49,713 --> 00:12:52,983 the maintenance for existing ICEs. 237 00:12:53,363 --> 00:12:56,883 So the warehouse of parts and the maintenance schedules and all those things 238 00:12:56,883 --> 00:12:57,943 exist. 239 00:12:58,403 --> 00:13:00,263 That's missing. 240 00:13:00,409 --> 00:13:04,069 One crucial piece of that is missing for battery electric trucks and that's the 241 00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:05,319 charging infrastructure. 242 00:13:05,319 --> 00:13:08,209 And that's why that charging infrastructure is so important to get 243 00:13:08,209 --> 00:13:11,259 built out so that you can travel. 244 00:13:11,323 --> 00:13:17,513 east -west, north -south along the rungs of the ladder to get from LA to Houston, 245 00:13:17,513 --> 00:13:23,243 from Houston to New York, from New York to Chicago, from Chicago to Seattle. 246 00:13:23,243 --> 00:13:25,283 You can do all those runs. 247 00:13:25,283 --> 00:13:27,563 That infrastructure has to be in place. 248 00:13:27,563 --> 00:13:36,283 In 2019 and 2018, the Tesla, sorry, the Tesla Supercharger network was just being 249 00:13:36,283 --> 00:13:37,243 built out. 250 00:13:37,243 --> 00:13:39,675 And there was a group of nerds like me, 251 00:13:39,675 --> 00:13:40,279 Right. 252 00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:44,139 watching a father and daughter who was gonna do the first cross country trip 253 00:13:44,139 --> 00:13:48,199 using only Tesla superchargers and they were driving from New York to San 254 00:13:48,199 --> 00:13:48,919 Francisco. 255 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:53,499 And there was one stretch across Arizona that had not had the supercharger open 256 00:13:53,499 --> 00:13:54,079 yet. 257 00:13:54,079 --> 00:13:57,479 And they left New York without that supercharger site open. 258 00:13:57,479 --> 00:14:00,679 on the anticipation that it would be open in time for them to use it so they could 259 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:01,899 reach San Francisco. 260 00:14:01,899 --> 00:14:05,639 And there was about a thousand of us who were watching online as this was 261 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:06,219 unfolding. 262 00:14:06,219 --> 00:14:07,759 I'm like, are they going to make it in time? 263 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:12,509 And Tesla actually opened it specifically for them to hit that site in charge so 264 00:14:12,509 --> 00:14:13,999 they could make it to San Francisco. 265 00:14:13,999 --> 00:14:14,849 And it was exciting. 266 00:14:14,849 --> 00:14:15,839 We're like, yay, they made it. 267 00:14:15,839 --> 00:14:18,539 It was the first cross -country drive using the supercharger. 268 00:14:19,283 --> 00:14:20,803 And that needs to happen for trucks. 269 00:14:20,803 --> 00:14:22,363 You need to be able to do those things. 270 00:14:22,363 --> 00:14:24,763 You have to be able to go from point A to point B. 271 00:14:24,763 --> 00:14:29,163 And that's why we did the work we did on the West Coast Client Transit Quarter. 272 00:14:29,163 --> 00:14:33,643 That's why it needs to happen up and down the I -95 quarter on the East Coast. 273 00:14:33,643 --> 00:14:35,663 And then it needs to happen on 84. 274 00:14:35,663 --> 00:14:39,973 And those are the crossmember, the 10, all those other crossmembers, the rungs and 275 00:14:39,973 --> 00:14:40,883 the ladder. 276 00:14:40,923 --> 00:14:44,299 So you have to have the up and downs and you have to have the crossmembers. 277 00:14:47,099 --> 00:14:49,879 Well, it's kind of interesting because that goes to what I was kind of mentioning 278 00:14:49,879 --> 00:14:50,189 earlier. 279 00:14:50,189 --> 00:14:52,279 So I just feel like there's a lot. 280 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:55,609 It's in some ways a lot clearer what needs to be done and where it's going for 281 00:14:55,609 --> 00:14:58,899 electric trucks, because so much of it has been done already in light duty. 282 00:14:58,899 --> 00:15:03,669 But it kind of goes back to like it's like five to seven years behind where it was in 283 00:15:03,669 --> 00:15:09,899 the fact that exactly that like there just isn't the infrastructure right now to do 284 00:15:09,899 --> 00:15:14,379 outside of like having a small fleet in a city or kind of going between cities, 285 00:15:14,379 --> 00:15:15,673 which. 286 00:15:15,673 --> 00:15:19,253 Once again, that's still a huge market and that's a great starting point, but to 287 00:15:19,253 --> 00:15:20,843 really get all of it done. 288 00:15:20,843 --> 00:15:25,873 And I think that's what's so kind of great to hear is it's really not, we need to 289 00:15:25,873 --> 00:15:29,823 solve a nuclear fusion or something to make this happen. 290 00:15:29,823 --> 00:15:32,483 It's just, we need to really more or less built the things. 291 00:15:32,483 --> 00:15:35,813 And as we get more of that data and understanding, we'll be able to kind of 292 00:15:35,813 --> 00:15:38,583 make everything else better and the technology improves. 293 00:15:38,583 --> 00:15:43,353 But in the five years or so it'll take to do that anyway, we'll be looking at a much 294 00:15:43,353 --> 00:15:44,947 different, uh, 295 00:15:45,145 --> 00:15:50,415 many different platforms from these different auto manufacturers for their 296 00:15:50,415 --> 00:15:51,215 electric semi. 297 00:15:51,215 --> 00:15:56,075 So I, it's one of those things that I'm pretty optimistic about and I think it's a 298 00:15:56,075 --> 00:15:59,865 pretty big hurdle, but I actually have the feeling that it's probably going to happen 299 00:15:59,865 --> 00:16:04,565 a lot faster whether it's a flying J or whether it's a, like you're talking about 300 00:16:04,565 --> 00:16:08,915 the company you've been kind of like someone's. 301 00:16:10,235 --> 00:16:10,655 Okay. 302 00:16:10,655 --> 00:16:10,945 Okay. 303 00:16:10,945 --> 00:16:13,765 So, but exactly that it's like, somebody is going to kind of take the first step. 304 00:16:13,765 --> 00:16:17,375 Someone is going to have to be kind of, and I know Tesla is obviously thinking 305 00:16:17,375 --> 00:16:21,615 about it and trying to do their own, um, thing to support their semis. 306 00:16:21,615 --> 00:16:24,585 And so it's eventually going to happen. 307 00:16:25,115 --> 00:16:28,735 LA to Houston as well and how we're going to build that out. 308 00:16:30,075 --> 00:16:31,395 Oh, gotcha. 309 00:16:31,395 --> 00:16:35,765 So yeah, I mean, it's really, it's interesting that that is the biggest issue 310 00:16:35,765 --> 00:16:40,175 right now, but it's also other than just getting the supply base spun up. 311 00:16:40,175 --> 00:16:41,695 It's really nothing. 312 00:16:42,335 --> 00:16:45,705 You're dealing with higher amperages, you're dealing with higher voltages, but 313 00:16:45,705 --> 00:16:49,125 thanks to MCS, you're kind of building out what that needs to be. 314 00:16:49,125 --> 00:16:52,025 You have that spec sheet and now you just need to go get the manufacturers to 315 00:16:52,025 --> 00:16:54,435 actually support it and build it. 316 00:16:54,635 --> 00:16:56,469 One of the other questions. 317 00:16:56,581 --> 00:16:57,231 MCS. 318 00:16:57,231 --> 00:17:03,621 So ABB and Trayton, the Volkswagen group that makes trucks in Europe, formed a 319 00:17:03,621 --> 00:17:07,871 partnership specifically to work on MCS and the rollout with commercial trucks in 320 00:17:07,871 --> 00:17:08,331 Europe. 321 00:17:08,331 --> 00:17:10,311 So it's happening. 322 00:17:11,111 --> 00:17:12,101 Yeah. 323 00:17:12,135 --> 00:17:13,295 No, that's great. 324 00:17:13,295 --> 00:17:17,425 Um, one of the other questions my friend had, and it's kind of tangential to this 325 00:17:17,425 --> 00:17:18,515 is maintenance. 326 00:17:18,515 --> 00:17:22,755 So he doesn't work for Volvo, but he works for a dealership that sells Volvo, uh, 327 00:17:22,755 --> 00:17:24,015 Volvo semi trucks. 328 00:17:24,015 --> 00:17:29,975 And, uh, there's obviously kind of like you have with regular dealerships and the 329 00:17:29,975 --> 00:17:34,915 actual manufacturer kind of sometimes disgruntled and not, uh, maybe just scrone 330 00:17:34,915 --> 00:17:38,325 is not the right word, but there's the exactly there. 331 00:17:38,325 --> 00:17:39,703 There can be tension. 332 00:17:39,835 --> 00:17:41,115 Yes, yes. 333 00:17:41,115 --> 00:17:44,265 And one of those is actually around maintenance and even some of the newer 334 00:17:44,265 --> 00:17:48,795 diesels, there's certain things that have to be done by a certain person or that 335 00:17:48,795 --> 00:17:49,305 kind of stuff. 336 00:17:49,305 --> 00:17:54,545 And he was kind of curious as we go to electric trucks, what kind of discussions, 337 00:17:54,545 --> 00:17:58,385 if you're aware of any, have there been around that or what kind of the 338 00:17:58,385 --> 00:18:03,545 maintenance required and who can do it or what that requires for maybe even a shop 339 00:18:03,545 --> 00:18:04,195 to be. 340 00:18:04,195 --> 00:18:07,391 And maybe this is kind of too early to even know what that looks like. 341 00:18:07,391 --> 00:18:07,941 you, and... 342 00:18:07,941 --> 00:18:10,099 certified to really work on these electric semis. 343 00:18:10,099 --> 00:18:14,109 That's 100 % a great question and that's something that the OEMs would never put a 344 00:18:14,109 --> 00:18:17,439 truck in the hands of customers without that plan already in place. 345 00:18:17,439 --> 00:18:22,209 So there's been a tremendous amount of certification and training and planning 346 00:18:22,209 --> 00:18:29,529 for that exact topic in that if you're gonna be a maintenance bay and you're 347 00:18:29,529 --> 00:18:33,039 gonna work on electric trucks, you have to have the qualified people to be able to 348 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:34,279 even open and touch the truck. 349 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:36,539 You can't have a high voltage system. 350 00:18:36,947 --> 00:18:40,397 and have someone that's not qualified to work on high voltage systems working on 351 00:18:40,397 --> 00:18:40,947 it. 352 00:18:40,947 --> 00:18:46,287 You can't even change the tires on an electric truck unless you've had the high 353 00:18:46,287 --> 00:18:50,467 voltage training so that you know what to touch and what not to touch. 354 00:18:50,467 --> 00:18:52,107 And that's very... 355 00:18:53,651 --> 00:18:59,201 defined from all the OEMs and all the dealerships that work on the vehicles. 356 00:18:59,201 --> 00:19:03,991 And that's for the safety of the maintenance personnel and the ability of 357 00:19:03,991 --> 00:19:06,325 the dealerships to work on the trucks. 358 00:19:08,763 --> 00:19:11,943 And I guess for anyone listening, that does sound kind of intimidating to even 359 00:19:11,943 --> 00:19:13,443 change the tires that requires that. 360 00:19:13,443 --> 00:19:17,163 But that's also true with diesel engines and the current platforms they have that 361 00:19:17,163 --> 00:19:21,533 there are very specific, uh, and much more detailed than you would think for even 362 00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:26,323 what is usually a simple thing for a lot of light duty vehicles, but that's cause 363 00:19:26,323 --> 00:19:27,843 they also expect. 364 00:19:27,983 --> 00:19:31,213 There's a chance that Joe Schmoe could do his own oil change or something. 365 00:19:31,213 --> 00:19:36,313 So it has to be a little bit, uh, more proofed in other ways than, uh, something 366 00:19:36,313 --> 00:19:38,517 like a semi is, but. 367 00:19:38,517 --> 00:19:41,107 have a saying in the industry. 368 00:19:42,027 --> 00:19:43,247 We have a saying in the industry. 369 00:19:43,247 --> 00:19:46,507 You make things idiot proof and they keep making better idiots. 370 00:19:49,541 --> 00:19:51,571 That is pretty awesome actually. 371 00:19:52,711 --> 00:19:59,471 That I'm afraid that that is true and I'm curious to see what electrification and 372 00:19:59,471 --> 00:20:01,671 that proves to be. 373 00:20:01,671 --> 00:20:05,291 Because I feel like there's gonna be some new ones coming out of that for sure. 374 00:20:06,291 --> 00:20:06,819 But. 375 00:20:06,819 --> 00:20:08,179 sure it will happen. 376 00:20:09,563 --> 00:20:11,363 Yeah, exactly. 377 00:20:11,743 --> 00:20:15,633 Um, so one of the things we've talked a lot about long haul and we've kind of 378 00:20:15,633 --> 00:20:20,793 alluded to Evie fleets, but I think it might be just good to just talk about it. 379 00:20:20,793 --> 00:20:26,263 So right now, obviously the easiest thing for like, let's say, I don't know, Safeway 380 00:20:26,263 --> 00:20:29,053 for some reason, bottom of my head, but any, any sort of large company that has a 381 00:20:29,053 --> 00:20:33,273 lot of semis and has one kind of warehouse or main area that's doing maybe only a 382 00:20:33,273 --> 00:20:35,283 couple hundred or even less miles a day. 383 00:20:35,283 --> 00:20:37,643 And they all go back to at the end of the night. 384 00:20:37,643 --> 00:20:38,875 Um, it, 385 00:20:38,875 --> 00:20:42,675 there's a pretty good and quick use case to make that electrified. 386 00:20:42,675 --> 00:20:48,355 What do those discussions look like and what is sometimes like the hardware or 387 00:20:48,355 --> 00:20:53,345 challenges to change a facility that's traditionally been having a combustion 388 00:20:53,345 --> 00:20:56,017 engine vehicles go to a fully electric one. 389 00:20:56,051 --> 00:21:00,871 Well, no fleet location currently today can do 100 % flip. 390 00:21:00,871 --> 00:21:03,851 It's simply not in the cards. 391 00:21:04,331 --> 00:21:09,371 So any fleet location right now today is gonna have a hybrid fleet. 392 00:21:09,371 --> 00:21:11,411 It's gonna have some electric and some diesel. 393 00:21:11,411 --> 00:21:14,671 And to start with, there's probably gonna be a small number of electric and a large 394 00:21:14,671 --> 00:21:15,231 number of diesel. 395 00:21:15,231 --> 00:21:18,941 And then over time, that number will start to grow from the electric side. 396 00:21:18,941 --> 00:21:22,711 And then hopefully at some point it turns into a 100 % electrification fleet. 397 00:21:22,971 --> 00:21:25,373 But let's use your Safeway. 398 00:21:25,373 --> 00:21:31,473 sorry, is that because of, yeah, but I mean, is that because of, um, just in 399 00:21:31,473 --> 00:21:34,473 like, especially if you're looking at like a Southern California, is that due to like 400 00:21:34,473 --> 00:21:38,563 actual utility, uh, power needs for that location? 401 00:21:38,563 --> 00:21:42,933 Or is that just because there just aren't enough, uh, electric semis being built at 402 00:21:42,933 --> 00:21:45,183 the moment or kind of a mixture of all the above? 403 00:21:45,183 --> 00:21:45,865 Okay. 404 00:21:45,865 --> 00:21:46,335 vehicles. 405 00:21:46,335 --> 00:21:48,735 That's the two issues. 406 00:21:48,915 --> 00:21:53,415 And the availability of how much charging you can put in at a specific time. 407 00:21:53,415 --> 00:21:57,175 You don't want your facility to be down for too long, right? 408 00:21:57,175 --> 00:22:00,975 A day or two, maybe you could hobble by, but more than that, you can't. 409 00:22:00,975 --> 00:22:05,155 So you have to eat the elephant in bites, right? 410 00:22:05,155 --> 00:22:09,315 So it's any fleet location like that, you have to take a few bites at it. 411 00:22:10,175 --> 00:22:11,315 So. 412 00:22:12,019 --> 00:22:16,329 You have a facility, you need to do the analysis on a couple of things. 413 00:22:16,329 --> 00:22:18,999 One is, who's your local utility? 414 00:22:18,999 --> 00:22:20,779 Have a conversation with them. 415 00:22:20,779 --> 00:22:22,599 Where do I sit on your grid? 416 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:25,029 How much available headroom is there on your grid? 417 00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:30,079 In other words, what can you connect me to that you have in surplus nearby? 418 00:22:30,459 --> 00:22:33,159 And what are you gonna need to build out? 419 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:38,959 Now, what most people don't know is that a public utility is a regulated industry. 420 00:22:39,283 --> 00:22:45,723 So they cannot legally have a bunch of extra power at any point in their grid 421 00:22:45,763 --> 00:22:51,283 because they're only allowed to build what customers need and demand. 422 00:22:51,343 --> 00:22:56,463 So there's only so much headroom any specific location can have access to 423 00:22:56,463 --> 00:23:00,703 because legally utilities can't just go build a bunch of extra capacity. 424 00:23:01,235 --> 00:23:04,685 So you go talk to utility and they say, yeah, I got two and a half, three maybe 425 00:23:04,685 --> 00:23:06,995 that I could give you, but you're asking for 10. 426 00:23:06,995 --> 00:23:08,575 That's going to take me five years. 427 00:23:08,575 --> 00:23:10,035 You say, okay, great. 428 00:23:10,035 --> 00:23:12,555 Let's get the 2 .5 going. 429 00:23:12,555 --> 00:23:18,835 That'll take six months to 12 months, maybe 14 to get everything connected to my 430 00:23:18,835 --> 00:23:20,875 site and get the chargers in. 431 00:23:20,875 --> 00:23:21,975 Let's get that started. 432 00:23:21,975 --> 00:23:27,783 And then let's start the process for the 10 and we'll peg that for the five years. 433 00:23:28,403 --> 00:23:32,083 Then you go and talk to your OEMs and say, okay, I've talked to utility, because 434 00:23:32,083 --> 00:23:33,413 that's the first person you got to talk to. 435 00:23:33,413 --> 00:23:35,283 The power's got to come from somewhere. 436 00:23:36,623 --> 00:23:42,593 The power should be at the site for 2 .5 megawatts worth in 14 months. 437 00:23:42,593 --> 00:23:45,923 Let's get the trucks ordered and set to deliver then. 438 00:23:45,923 --> 00:23:52,073 And then the next step is I'm going to go talk to either a consulting company or a 439 00:23:52,073 --> 00:23:54,579 company like Black and Veatch or Burns and Mack. 440 00:23:54,579 --> 00:23:59,109 and design what needs to go into my facility so that my fleet can be 441 00:23:59,109 --> 00:23:59,569 electrified. 442 00:23:59,569 --> 00:24:03,659 And that's the design of the site, that's the design of the chargers, the design of 443 00:24:03,659 --> 00:24:09,299 the power dispensation, onsite generation if needs to be, battery storage if it 444 00:24:09,299 --> 00:24:12,139 needs to be, some combination thereof. 445 00:24:12,499 --> 00:24:14,049 And you work that in. 446 00:24:14,049 --> 00:24:17,779 The first thing you do when you're doing that as a consultant is you look at the 447 00:24:17,779 --> 00:24:20,299 data from where the trucks travel. 448 00:24:20,595 --> 00:24:24,875 So if you have a Safeway distribution site, they've got stores that are nearby, 449 00:24:24,875 --> 00:24:27,715 and they've also got stores that are a little bit farther away, and they've got 450 00:24:27,715 --> 00:24:29,455 stores that are really far away. 451 00:24:29,455 --> 00:24:33,055 So you take that data and say, okay, right now with the trucks that can do what they 452 00:24:33,055 --> 00:24:36,975 can do, we can get the close ones and the medium ones, we can't do the far ones. 453 00:24:36,975 --> 00:24:39,555 That means that's 50 % of the fleet. 454 00:24:39,555 --> 00:24:42,255 Okay, so we can convert 50 % of the fleet right now. 455 00:24:42,255 --> 00:24:44,145 They have access to 2 .5 megawatts. 456 00:24:44,145 --> 00:24:45,695 What number of trucks is that? 457 00:24:45,695 --> 00:24:49,615 And you start to say, okay, let's pick these off and off we go. 458 00:24:50,099 --> 00:24:53,279 And then so it takes much longer than anybody thinks. 459 00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:58,049 It takes about 18 months to two years to get fully spun up on a site and get that 460 00:24:58,049 --> 00:24:59,359 transfer started. 461 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,469 And then you've got to wait for the power and then you've got to spin up the next 462 00:25:02,469 --> 00:25:03,259 one. 463 00:25:03,259 --> 00:25:10,019 And what's interesting is that it's much cheaper to prep a site in one go. 464 00:25:10,019 --> 00:25:15,619 So we say, we talk to customers and so we touch the ground once so that you're 465 00:25:15,619 --> 00:25:19,699 prepared for the next steps of your fleet conversion. 466 00:25:19,699 --> 00:25:20,211 So. 467 00:25:20,211 --> 00:25:25,001 If you can, when you're doing the first conversion, prepare for step two, steps 468 00:25:25,001 --> 00:25:31,241 three, maybe even step four, lay the conduit, prepare the switch here, prepare 469 00:25:31,241 --> 00:25:35,501 the pads, all the other things, so that when you want to do your next round of 470 00:25:35,501 --> 00:25:38,821 trucks and you get the next round of power from the utility, all you're doing is 471 00:25:38,821 --> 00:25:41,931 pulling a few cables, dropping a few chargers, and you're ready to go. 472 00:25:41,931 --> 00:25:47,909 It's much, much cheaper than re -digging, relaying cable, reinstalling chargers. 473 00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:51,087 reinstalling conductors, all those things over and over again. 474 00:25:52,507 --> 00:25:55,477 No, that kind of brings up another question. 475 00:25:55,477 --> 00:25:59,837 Something you said earlier when we were talking about Electric Island and you 476 00:25:59,837 --> 00:26:03,547 said, yeah, and we have the small 50 kilowatt ones for overnight, which 477 00:26:03,547 --> 00:26:06,727 immediately, because my daily is like a model, I was like, sure, that's still a 478 00:26:06,727 --> 00:26:07,207 lot. 479 00:26:07,207 --> 00:26:09,587 And I was like, well, we're talking about semis here. 480 00:26:09,587 --> 00:26:15,747 What is kind of like the average, what is like the level two equivalent for a semi? 481 00:26:15,747 --> 00:26:19,951 So for EV, like a light duty EV like. 482 00:26:20,333 --> 00:26:24,883 Anywhere from 6 to 11 kilowatts is plenty for overnight charging. 483 00:26:24,883 --> 00:26:29,763 I'm kind of curious and there's probably a few similar variables, but like what is 484 00:26:29,763 --> 00:26:33,933 good practice for like if you have a school bus fleet or something that 485 00:26:33,933 --> 00:26:38,163 probably just charges overnight anyway, like what is there kind of like a set 486 00:26:38,163 --> 00:26:43,123 level to band for these kinds of commercial vehicles? 487 00:26:43,123 --> 00:26:45,663 Well, you asked three questions, so let's go back. 488 00:26:45,663 --> 00:26:48,743 So level two charging is typically AC charging. 489 00:26:49,483 --> 00:26:50,723 Excuse me. 490 00:26:50,723 --> 00:26:52,503 Most of these trucks are gonna charge DC. 491 00:26:52,503 --> 00:26:54,623 They're not gonna carry around inverters on board. 492 00:26:54,623 --> 00:26:57,683 So they're gonna need DC chargers. 493 00:26:57,843 --> 00:27:06,943 Kind of your overnight charge or your long, slow charge is gonna be 50 to 75 kW, 494 00:27:06,943 --> 00:27:12,043 maybe a 40, depending on how long that quiet period is. 495 00:27:12,531 --> 00:27:16,071 But what you do want is flexibility. 496 00:27:16,071 --> 00:27:24,191 So you may want a charger that could do as low as 40 or 50, but could also be ramped 497 00:27:24,191 --> 00:27:32,601 up and supply 450, 800, you know, and have these power modules that can be put into 498 00:27:32,601 --> 00:27:33,651 effect. 499 00:27:33,831 --> 00:27:37,491 And I call it as a layman, power sloshing. 500 00:27:37,491 --> 00:27:39,539 So if you have a pan of water, 501 00:27:39,539 --> 00:27:43,299 and you kind of tilt the pan from one side to the other, the water will slosh from 502 00:27:43,299 --> 00:27:44,559 one side to the other. 503 00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:50,089 So if you have a number of chargers and you have some trucks that need more power 504 00:27:50,089 --> 00:27:54,689 than others, you want to be able to move that power around and supply some trucks 505 00:27:54,689 --> 00:28:00,719 with more power, some with less based on what the battery needs and the fleet needs 506 00:28:00,719 --> 00:28:01,159 are. 507 00:28:01,159 --> 00:28:03,839 And so maybe you've got a truck that needs to go out quick. 508 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:06,259 And so you're going to give him a lot of power. 509 00:28:06,259 --> 00:28:08,147 You're going to drop everybody else down. 510 00:28:08,147 --> 00:28:12,687 Maybe you've got a long overnight or maybe a long midday in California where you have 511 00:28:12,687 --> 00:28:15,467 a lot of solar overproduction and the power is really cheap. 512 00:28:15,467 --> 00:28:21,407 You want to ramp everybody up to maybe 80 % speed and just give them a lot of power 513 00:28:21,407 --> 00:28:23,447 and soak up a lot of cheap power from the grid. 514 00:28:23,447 --> 00:28:28,757 So you want that capability to flex and flow with your charging infrastructure and 515 00:28:28,757 --> 00:28:34,387 what those building blocks are determine how small of a chunk you can go down to. 516 00:28:34,387 --> 00:28:39,267 So whether it's 40, 50, 70, everybody's kind of chosen a different chunk of those 517 00:28:39,267 --> 00:28:44,227 Legos and how that small, that small building block is so that you can get up 518 00:28:44,227 --> 00:28:48,127 fast and you can also get down to a small overnight dispensation. 519 00:28:48,127 --> 00:28:52,307 And then you talked about school buses, which is another question entirely. 520 00:28:52,367 --> 00:28:59,317 Those things are fantastic for students because they're lower emission for a very 521 00:28:59,317 --> 00:29:00,767 vulnerable population. 522 00:29:00,767 --> 00:29:03,283 And they're also fantastic for... 523 00:29:03,283 --> 00:29:10,403 the utility because they store power and use power at very opportune times. 524 00:29:10,403 --> 00:29:14,553 If you have a fleet of school buses and it's taking the kids to school and come 525 00:29:14,553 --> 00:29:19,743 back to their depot and they're plugged in, then they can soak up solar power in 526 00:29:19,743 --> 00:29:22,903 the peak of the day when there's a lot of overproduction from solar. 527 00:29:22,903 --> 00:29:25,523 And that's happening more and more in Southern California, but in a lot of 528 00:29:25,523 --> 00:29:26,203 places in the U .S. 529 00:29:26,203 --> 00:29:31,753 you have all these solar systems going in and you have overproduction between like 530 00:29:31,753 --> 00:29:32,973 10 and 2. 531 00:29:32,973 --> 00:29:37,143 midday and that's when school buses are parked so they can soak up a lot of power 532 00:29:37,143 --> 00:29:43,023 they can go take the students home from school after school is done they come back 533 00:29:43,023 --> 00:29:46,603 and plug in they still have a lot of power left in their batteries and they can be 534 00:29:46,603 --> 00:29:50,553 used to send power back into the grid when the utilities really need it when 535 00:29:50,553 --> 00:29:55,043 everybody's gone home and you see this peak happen in demand and then later on at 536 00:29:55,043 --> 00:29:58,323 night when nobody's moving anything because the school buses are parked and 537 00:29:58,323 --> 00:30:01,503 they can slowly charge it overnight baseline power again and be ready to roll 538 00:30:01,503 --> 00:30:01,939 in. 539 00:30:01,939 --> 00:30:07,539 school buses are really interesting use case where something called V to G or 540 00:30:07,539 --> 00:30:13,159 vehicle to grid or V to X vehicle to anything goes into effect. 541 00:30:13,779 --> 00:30:14,499 Yeah. 542 00:30:15,579 --> 00:30:15,859 Yeah. 543 00:30:15,859 --> 00:30:18,603 So school buses are fantastic use case for that. 544 00:30:20,571 --> 00:30:21,121 Yeah. 545 00:30:21,121 --> 00:30:25,261 Uh, and I just kind of said school buses, just an example of a commercial thing, but 546 00:30:25,261 --> 00:30:31,201 that does seem to be the most common and even the clearest business case really for 547 00:30:31,201 --> 00:30:33,481 the vehicle to grid working with the utility. 548 00:30:33,481 --> 00:30:37,471 And there's a lot of pilots of that going on right now with MCS. 549 00:30:37,471 --> 00:30:42,141 I'm assuming that does have vehicle to grid as a pretty strong component of the 550 00:30:42,141 --> 00:30:43,091 protocols, right? 551 00:30:43,091 --> 00:30:45,451 That's yeah, I thought I'd seen something like that. 552 00:30:45,451 --> 00:30:47,753 What are we going to say there? 553 00:30:47,753 --> 00:30:52,803 vehicle to X was one of the baseline requirements that I had to be able to do. 554 00:30:52,803 --> 00:30:57,223 I don't know that we'll see MCS on school bus though, because I think from a power 555 00:30:57,223 --> 00:31:03,353 need standpoint, I think what NACS and what CCST can provide to a school bus is 556 00:31:03,353 --> 00:31:04,543 more than sufficient. 557 00:31:04,543 --> 00:31:10,163 It's the ability to have that communication standard defined. 558 00:31:10,163 --> 00:31:14,603 so that the vehicle and the grid can talk and send power the right direction when 559 00:31:14,603 --> 00:31:15,651 it's required. 560 00:31:18,107 --> 00:31:19,367 Interesting. 561 00:31:20,227 --> 00:31:25,127 Uh, so with that, when you look at, we've, we talked about school buses. 562 00:31:25,127 --> 00:31:29,217 Are there anything that's kind of the first step for a vehicle to grade a lot of 563 00:31:29,217 --> 00:31:30,867 these pilots or applications? 564 00:31:30,867 --> 00:31:34,487 Are there any other commercial Vita G? 565 00:31:34,487 --> 00:31:37,847 I guess opportunities that kind of stand out to you that maybe aren't being 566 00:31:37,847 --> 00:31:42,637 discussed enough, or you think are kind of the next big easy wins after the school 567 00:31:42,637 --> 00:31:43,823 bus example. 568 00:31:44,819 --> 00:31:48,159 So a commercial truck isn't making money if it's sitting idle. 569 00:31:48,159 --> 00:31:52,279 So that's why charging speed can be important for some fleets. 570 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:55,939 Some fleets simply sit idle at times when people aren't working. 571 00:31:55,939 --> 00:32:04,199 Whether or not that will change with the rollout of silent, powerful, quiet fleets 572 00:32:04,199 --> 00:32:05,919 is another thing entirely. 573 00:32:05,919 --> 00:32:09,989 If you can make deliveries at night because you have a quiet fleet, do you run 574 00:32:09,989 --> 00:32:10,429 at night? 575 00:32:10,429 --> 00:32:11,499 Who knows? 576 00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:13,099 Those things will change. 577 00:32:13,299 --> 00:32:16,779 If vehicles can go inside of buildings because they don't have any emissions, 578 00:32:16,779 --> 00:32:18,319 does that change things? 579 00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:18,979 Who knows? 580 00:32:18,979 --> 00:32:21,199 We don't know the answers to those things. 581 00:32:21,199 --> 00:32:26,439 I think one of the things that hasn't been fully explored with vehicle to grid or 582 00:32:26,439 --> 00:32:34,859 vehicle to X is how electric vehicles help communities during times of catastrophe. 583 00:32:35,159 --> 00:32:39,539 So we all know that the Pacific Northwest is waiting for a big rip, right? 584 00:32:39,539 --> 00:32:41,499 It's supposed to be an 8 .8 coming. 585 00:32:41,523 --> 00:32:45,313 and you have all these public shelters that are set aside so we're all supposed 586 00:32:45,313 --> 00:32:47,713 to be able to go to the local middle school, high school, grade school, 587 00:32:47,713 --> 00:32:49,723 whatever, and have shelter. 588 00:32:49,723 --> 00:32:51,243 Will the power be on? 589 00:32:51,243 --> 00:32:52,603 Probably not. 590 00:32:52,603 --> 00:32:56,773 If the school district has a bunch of electric school buses, can they take those 591 00:32:56,773 --> 00:33:02,583 and provide power to a site with that V to X so that everyone inside has lights and 592 00:33:02,583 --> 00:33:03,963 warmth when they need it? 593 00:33:03,963 --> 00:33:04,763 Yes. 594 00:33:04,763 --> 00:33:09,333 Could you do that as well with city vehicles if they have that V to X 595 00:33:09,333 --> 00:33:09,883 capability? 596 00:33:09,883 --> 00:33:10,803 Yes. 597 00:33:10,803 --> 00:33:15,303 If I'm a fleet that runs class eight commercial trucks, is that a viable 598 00:33:15,303 --> 00:33:19,363 opportunity for me to contribute back to my community if my trucks can do that? 599 00:33:19,363 --> 00:33:20,033 Possibly. 600 00:33:20,033 --> 00:33:23,263 Is it a way to make money if the city wants to contract me to do that? 601 00:33:23,263 --> 00:33:24,143 Possibly. 602 00:33:24,143 --> 00:33:26,763 Some of those things I don't think I've been fully explored. 603 00:33:29,571 --> 00:33:30,001 Interesting. 604 00:33:30,001 --> 00:33:30,171 Yeah. 605 00:33:30,171 --> 00:33:32,841 I mean, especially when you talk about that example and kind of like cities, not 606 00:33:32,841 --> 00:33:36,961 only do they have school buses, there's dump trucks and a lot of these other kind 607 00:33:36,961 --> 00:33:41,941 of municipal and city commercial vehicles that we're also seeing electrified. 608 00:33:41,941 --> 00:33:47,441 So that is actually a really good and interesting use case for them with some of 609 00:33:47,441 --> 00:33:52,791 the things we're seeing too around the discussion that we've been having today 610 00:33:52,791 --> 00:33:54,651 around electrification. 611 00:33:54,651 --> 00:33:59,055 One other area I kind of wanted to ask you about was around 612 00:33:59,055 --> 00:34:04,785 hybrids in or like plug -in hybrids even because it was just fascinating what you 613 00:34:04,785 --> 00:34:08,015 even just said earlier about I didn't think about this that they won't have AC 614 00:34:08,015 --> 00:34:12,945 charging that's I mean then they don't need an inverter and it saves parts it 615 00:34:12,945 --> 00:34:19,315 makes sense because the demand they need anyway it doesn't really Yeah, and so 616 00:34:19,315 --> 00:34:24,539 There's been obviously a lot in the light duty conversations lately about 617 00:34:24,539 --> 00:34:28,019 kind of slowing down EV adoption and looking at hybrids and plugging hybrids, 618 00:34:28,019 --> 00:34:29,819 especially it's kind of the stop gap. 619 00:34:30,139 --> 00:34:34,339 And obviously a lot of pros and I think probably more cons of that actually being 620 00:34:34,339 --> 00:34:35,579 realistic or plausible. 621 00:34:35,579 --> 00:34:39,259 But there's now been conversations of that in trucking as well. 622 00:34:39,259 --> 00:34:43,679 And kind of these kind of interesting, I don't think they'd work in Europe because 623 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,089 of some of the requirements they have there, but essentially you've probably 624 00:34:46,089 --> 00:34:52,089 seen it where a trailer plugs into a kind of in between the actual tractor semi and 625 00:34:52,089 --> 00:34:53,435 then the trailer. 626 00:34:53,563 --> 00:34:57,303 And it's kind of like a hybrid slash battery thing. 627 00:34:57,563 --> 00:35:01,483 I'm just, I think given our conversation, I think I know where you probably land on 628 00:35:01,483 --> 00:35:07,353 this, but I'm just kind of curious if you've seen any exposure or anything in 629 00:35:07,353 --> 00:35:13,183 that realm that's interesting to you or is a kind of valid stopgap to full 630 00:35:13,183 --> 00:35:14,489 electrification. 631 00:35:14,739 --> 00:35:19,819 I'll quote Martin Daum on this, who's the CEO of Daimler Truck Global. 632 00:35:20,059 --> 00:35:24,279 His quote on hybrids was, the worst of both worlds. 633 00:35:24,279 --> 00:35:26,559 And I agree with him on that. 634 00:35:26,759 --> 00:35:31,549 Because if you have a plug -in hybrid truck, or even a plug -in hybrid light 635 00:35:31,549 --> 00:35:36,349 vehicle, you're carrying two drivetrains that have been stuffed into the same 636 00:35:36,349 --> 00:35:38,299 chassis that would normally fit one. 637 00:35:38,299 --> 00:35:40,159 Neither one is optimized. 638 00:35:40,435 --> 00:35:47,275 and you carry the weight and maintenance penalty of them being overused when they 639 00:35:47,275 --> 00:35:48,365 are being put into use. 640 00:35:48,365 --> 00:35:53,175 So you have an undersized battery and undersized ICE that really aren't 641 00:35:53,175 --> 00:35:55,295 optimized to work with each other. 642 00:35:56,675 --> 00:35:58,915 And especially with light duty. 643 00:35:59,379 --> 00:36:03,479 there's no control over whether or not they get actually plugged in or not. 644 00:36:03,479 --> 00:36:08,599 And there was a huge push towards plug -in hybrids being adopted as commercial 645 00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:09,879 vehicle, fleet vehicles. 646 00:36:09,879 --> 00:36:16,399 It's really common in Europe as an employee to be given a free lease of a 647 00:36:16,399 --> 00:36:17,199 corporate vehicle. 648 00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:21,379 And so a lot of companies went with plug -in hybrids five to six years ago because 649 00:36:21,379 --> 00:36:22,739 that was what was available. 650 00:36:22,739 --> 00:36:26,569 And most of those got returned with the charge cord still in the original plastic 651 00:36:26,569 --> 00:36:27,999 bag never opened. 652 00:36:28,115 --> 00:36:34,735 And so you have a plug -in hybrid vehicle that was built to balance batteries in the 653 00:36:34,735 --> 00:36:36,775 ICE that never had the battery charged. 654 00:36:36,775 --> 00:36:40,545 And so you had an overworked ICE for the entirety of that vehicle being put on the 655 00:36:40,545 --> 00:36:41,295 road. 656 00:36:41,935 --> 00:36:43,655 That's not a solution. 657 00:36:43,715 --> 00:36:45,903 That's a fallacy. 658 00:36:45,903 --> 00:36:48,763 the right for sure. 659 00:36:48,763 --> 00:36:50,863 And I think that's, I completely agree with it there. 660 00:36:50,863 --> 00:36:57,363 And that's something that we've discussed a lot is that exact example of the, a lot 661 00:36:57,363 --> 00:37:00,863 of the perks and incentives that were given for people to have these plug -in 662 00:37:00,863 --> 00:37:04,063 hybrids, but then coincidentally, since it's a company vehicle, they also have a 663 00:37:04,063 --> 00:37:04,863 gas card. 664 00:37:04,863 --> 00:37:11,483 And so it's like, well, if you're just wet and so it's like, as they say the. 665 00:37:11,483 --> 00:37:13,083 path to hell is paid with good intentions. 666 00:37:13,083 --> 00:37:15,603 It just seems kind of like the epitome of that. 667 00:37:15,603 --> 00:37:19,393 And especially in the semi world with what you were talking about earlier with all 668 00:37:19,393 --> 00:37:26,453 that rotational force, it's obviously true for a light duty hybrid, but much more so, 669 00:37:26,453 --> 00:37:31,103 it's so visible when you see a semi startup and it's just one more thing 670 00:37:31,103 --> 00:37:33,883 that's shaking and moving all these different parts. 671 00:37:33,883 --> 00:37:35,383 Right. 672 00:37:35,503 --> 00:37:38,273 And I think that is really interesting. 673 00:37:38,273 --> 00:37:40,481 Kind of once again, going back to. 674 00:37:40,539 --> 00:37:42,579 Exactly what you're saying with not needing an inverter. 675 00:37:42,579 --> 00:37:47,249 I mean, you're just adding more parts more subsystems You're probably going to need 676 00:37:47,249 --> 00:37:50,729 not just you're going to need not only a low voltage in the high voltage But then 677 00:37:50,729 --> 00:37:54,409 you're going to need probably a medium voltage and it's it's just been really 678 00:37:54,409 --> 00:37:57,879 interesting with electrification This is a very different thing. 679 00:37:57,879 --> 00:38:03,389 But like even Porsche recently has essentially moved to With I think was the 680 00:38:03,389 --> 00:38:06,469 Panamera they had like essentially like three different voltage systems in the car 681 00:38:06,469 --> 00:38:09,369 Some of it was due to the technology being new and not having the right suppliers. 682 00:38:09,369 --> 00:38:09,979 I 683 00:38:09,979 --> 00:38:16,079 But then so they had like a do this and it's a very cool and very in a lot of ways 684 00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:21,249 impractical much like much Porsche stuff is but really cool suspension system 685 00:38:21,249 --> 00:38:24,659 that's hydraulic but also has a electric component. 686 00:38:24,659 --> 00:38:30,659 So it was like it had a I think of 12 volt 48 volt 400 volt and then maybe even if 687 00:38:30,659 --> 00:38:35,279 you were in the Tycon and 800 volt system which is really impressive really cool 688 00:38:35,279 --> 00:38:38,909 engineer but it's just so many extra things and more importantly so much extra 689 00:38:38,909 --> 00:38:39,519 weight. 690 00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:39,971 Yeah. 691 00:38:39,971 --> 00:38:44,171 Exactly, which I mean, if you have a Porsche dealership, that's that's the you 692 00:38:44,171 --> 00:38:44,981 want to be selling like crazy. 693 00:38:44,981 --> 00:38:48,231 I'm sure but yeah, for most people, it's not practical. 694 00:38:48,231 --> 00:38:51,891 And so right, exactly, exactly. 695 00:38:51,891 --> 00:38:52,311 Yeah. 696 00:38:52,311 --> 00:38:54,611 So there was a couple of hybrid truck companies out there. 697 00:38:54,611 --> 00:38:56,351 Hylion was one. 698 00:38:56,351 --> 00:38:59,551 I can't remember the other couple, but they've all gone under. 699 00:38:59,871 --> 00:39:04,391 And Daimler was making some hybrid trucks eight years ago. 700 00:39:04,391 --> 00:39:07,251 And there was just no customer demand because they cost more. 701 00:39:07,251 --> 00:39:09,021 And then the maintenance was cost more. 702 00:39:09,021 --> 00:39:10,061 And so your cost per mile. 703 00:39:10,061 --> 00:39:13,341 So we haven't gotten into this, but everything in commercial trucks comes down 704 00:39:13,341 --> 00:39:15,971 to TCO, total cost of ownership. 705 00:39:16,275 --> 00:39:20,005 So everything can be factored down to what does it cost me to roll this truck per 706 00:39:20,005 --> 00:39:20,235 mile? 707 00:39:20,235 --> 00:39:22,185 How many cents per mile does it cost me? 708 00:39:22,185 --> 00:39:25,355 That is flat out the only reason you purchase a vehicle. 709 00:39:26,275 --> 00:39:32,535 And so once that TCO becomes competitive, or even in some cases where we've seen it 710 00:39:32,535 --> 00:39:36,645 be better with electric vehicles, then it's a spread seat decision. 711 00:39:36,645 --> 00:39:39,659 You don't buy a Freightliner because... 712 00:39:39,763 --> 00:39:40,963 you'd buy a red Porsche. 713 00:39:40,963 --> 00:39:44,623 You buy a red Porsche because you turn 50 and you're feeling you got midlife crisis, 714 00:39:44,623 --> 00:39:45,303 right? 715 00:39:45,303 --> 00:39:50,663 You buy a Freightliner because it has lower TCO than the other guys. 716 00:39:50,803 --> 00:39:54,963 Or you buy a battery electric because it has lower TCO than the other guys. 717 00:39:54,963 --> 00:39:56,423 And that's what it's going to come down to. 718 00:39:56,423 --> 00:39:58,563 It's going to come down to a spreadsheet decision. 719 00:39:58,563 --> 00:40:02,623 And we're rapidly approaching from the bottom up. 720 00:40:02,623 --> 00:40:05,961 So delivery vans are already TCO positive. 721 00:40:05,971 --> 00:40:10,301 If somebody is purchasing gasoline or diesel deliver gans, they're not doing 722 00:40:10,301 --> 00:40:13,511 their analysis correctly because it's already TCO positive to go battery 723 00:40:13,511 --> 00:40:14,211 electric. 724 00:40:14,211 --> 00:40:18,351 And we're slowly then creeping up to class four, class five, class six, class seven. 725 00:40:18,351 --> 00:40:22,511 And many of those cases, depending on your load and your range, are already TCO 726 00:40:22,511 --> 00:40:23,921 positive to go battery electric. 727 00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:25,623 And class eight is next. 728 00:40:28,731 --> 00:40:29,831 Yeah, actually it's funny. 729 00:40:29,831 --> 00:40:32,911 We probably should have started with TCO since it is so important, especially in 730 00:40:32,911 --> 00:40:34,991 the long haul and fleet space. 731 00:40:34,991 --> 00:40:38,231 And we've kind of been dancing around it, but I'm actually glad you brought that up. 732 00:40:38,231 --> 00:40:41,731 I feel so I didn't mention it sooner or call it out more, but yeah, you're totally 733 00:40:41,731 --> 00:40:41,941 right. 734 00:40:41,941 --> 00:40:45,691 I think that's one of the big things, especially when you're looking at fleets 735 00:40:45,691 --> 00:40:46,991 and you're right. 736 00:40:46,991 --> 00:40:51,511 That's honestly like bright drop and all these other kind of domestic OEMs have 737 00:40:51,511 --> 00:40:56,411 been making a large investment in the commercial space because of the TCO and 738 00:40:56,411 --> 00:41:00,031 It's a lot harder maybe for the light duty vehicles to sell individually to 739 00:41:00,031 --> 00:41:00,611 customers. 740 00:41:00,611 --> 00:41:04,311 But when you look at the total cost of ownership, whether it's through the oil 741 00:41:04,311 --> 00:41:08,921 changes and all sorts of other maintenance that come along with that, the message for 742 00:41:08,921 --> 00:41:12,361 electrification, even though there's actually a decent upfront investment to 743 00:41:12,361 --> 00:41:17,971 add AC charging, if it's like a delivery vans and all these things, but once again, 744 00:41:17,971 --> 00:41:19,651 over the total cost of it. 745 00:41:19,651 --> 00:41:23,021 And there's obviously incentives for it too, but it pretty quickly pays for 746 00:41:23,021 --> 00:41:23,361 itself. 747 00:41:23,361 --> 00:41:26,597 And it just has so many more. 748 00:41:26,597 --> 00:41:30,697 moving parts literally, but also from like even a business standpoint of what you 749 00:41:30,697 --> 00:41:36,167 need to be concerned about and the like how large the actual maintenance and uh, 750 00:41:36,167 --> 00:41:41,507 kind of upkeep of these vehicles that are what have you seen anything? 751 00:41:41,967 --> 00:41:43,107 Yeah. 752 00:41:43,107 --> 00:41:44,065 No, go for it. 753 00:41:44,065 --> 00:41:48,655 quickly, many large municipalities in Europe and it's starting to happen in the 754 00:41:48,655 --> 00:41:52,895 US as well are banning internal combustion engines in their city cores. 755 00:41:52,935 --> 00:41:55,515 And so in many cases, it's a binary decision. 756 00:41:55,515 --> 00:41:58,215 Am I going to operate within these city cores? 757 00:41:58,215 --> 00:42:01,355 And if so, if I'm going to do that, then I need a zero combustion vehicle. 758 00:42:01,355 --> 00:42:02,011 So. 759 00:42:02,051 --> 00:42:05,451 These companies making deliveries, whether they're vans, class six, class seven, 760 00:42:05,451 --> 00:42:12,621 class eight, in London or Munich or Berlin or Milan, if you're going to make 761 00:42:12,621 --> 00:42:14,771 deliveries, it has to be zero emission. 762 00:42:14,771 --> 00:42:20,611 So as companies make decisions, spreadsheet decisions, I want to make 763 00:42:20,611 --> 00:42:22,271 deliveries to my customers in this area. 764 00:42:22,271 --> 00:42:24,051 I kind of have to have a zero emission. 765 00:42:26,459 --> 00:42:31,499 And I think obviously it plays a role, but obviously that can get a little bit more 766 00:42:31,499 --> 00:42:35,309 contentious depending on who you're talking around and the political leanings 767 00:42:35,309 --> 00:42:35,799 of stuff. 768 00:42:35,799 --> 00:42:36,649 But you're totally right. 769 00:42:36,649 --> 00:42:38,749 I, that is a big part of those decisions. 770 00:42:38,749 --> 00:42:44,479 But even then, um, that I think is kind of maybe forcing or accelerating it, but with 771 00:42:44,479 --> 00:42:49,429 everything else we're seeing, it is just cheaper, uh, on a purely financial and 772 00:42:49,429 --> 00:42:52,379 just a logistical standpoint to do it anyway. 773 00:42:52,379 --> 00:42:54,683 That just might be like, instead of doing it, 774 00:42:54,683 --> 00:42:57,503 In two years and you're like, okay, I'll just do it this year or something to make 775 00:42:57,503 --> 00:43:01,643 those upgrades, to meet those, those needs, which I don't think is a bad thing 776 00:43:01,643 --> 00:43:10,003 either with what you're kind of talking about around the TCO. 777 00:43:10,183 --> 00:43:13,093 What are some of the things in your experience? 778 00:43:13,093 --> 00:43:17,283 Let's say you are talking to someone that just like, hell no, I'm not, you can rip 779 00:43:17,283 --> 00:43:21,803 my diesel engine out of my cold dead hands kind of a situation. 780 00:43:21,851 --> 00:43:26,891 Let's say they're not being as practical or financially observant, maybe. 781 00:43:27,031 --> 00:43:31,391 Are there any sort of things that you have shared with them around kind of the 782 00:43:31,391 --> 00:43:32,371 conversation of TCO? 783 00:43:32,371 --> 00:43:36,721 Maybe not even financially, but just less maintenance or something that, or what are 784 00:43:36,721 --> 00:43:40,771 these conversations that you have with people that maybe can be that kind of 785 00:43:40,771 --> 00:43:44,751 point that turns them around and kind of opens them up to like, okay, this is 786 00:43:44,751 --> 00:43:48,701 actually, let's throw out all the renew, like there's all the environmental 787 00:43:48,701 --> 00:43:50,555 benefits, but let's forget about that for a second. 788 00:43:50,555 --> 00:43:51,745 That actually makes sense. 789 00:43:51,745 --> 00:43:52,895 Now I'm interested. 790 00:43:52,895 --> 00:43:55,373 What in your experience have kind of been those things? 791 00:43:55,411 --> 00:43:59,701 Two things, one from a financial standpoint, if you're rolling zero 792 00:43:59,701 --> 00:44:05,111 emissions, typically you can charge more to the customer per mile because they're 793 00:44:05,111 --> 00:44:06,071 willing to pay for it. 794 00:44:06,071 --> 00:44:10,231 So you have companies like Target, Pepsi, Budweiser, that are willing to pay more 795 00:44:10,231 --> 00:44:12,051 for a cleaner supply chain. 796 00:44:12,051 --> 00:44:16,881 So they'll pay you more per mile for that zero emission transportation you've 797 00:44:16,881 --> 00:44:17,671 provided. 798 00:44:17,671 --> 00:44:22,751 And two, one of the biggest headaches in the transportation fleet industry is 799 00:44:22,751 --> 00:44:24,031 driver retention. 800 00:44:24,591 --> 00:44:25,427 And... 801 00:44:25,427 --> 00:44:32,497 The zero -mission trucks are easy to drive, they are pleasant to drive, and 802 00:44:32,497 --> 00:44:37,797 they attract non -traditional drivers because they are easy and pleasant to 803 00:44:37,797 --> 00:44:38,707 drive. 804 00:44:38,767 --> 00:44:43,367 And so fleets who would normally be struggling to find drivers if they have 805 00:44:43,367 --> 00:44:49,337 zero -mission trucks find that they're attracting a larger number of capable 806 00:44:49,337 --> 00:44:52,147 drivers from a larger area. 807 00:44:52,147 --> 00:44:56,657 of non -traditional drivers and so they're able to attract and keep drivers, which 808 00:44:56,657 --> 00:44:57,997 lowers their costs. 809 00:45:01,051 --> 00:45:04,511 That's it's interesting you mentioned that because I didn't think about that. 810 00:45:04,511 --> 00:45:08,701 But in a couple of the clips I've seen about the Tesla semi and a couple of 811 00:45:08,701 --> 00:45:10,831 electric vehicles, they have kind of it. 812 00:45:10,831 --> 00:45:13,851 That's when they asked the drivers first. 813 00:45:13,851 --> 00:45:17,221 That's been a very common thing that one, it's just a much more pleasant vehicle to 814 00:45:17,221 --> 00:45:18,811 drive and just even be in. 815 00:45:18,811 --> 00:45:25,241 There's just a lot more kind of newer safety and I guess creature comforts along 816 00:45:25,241 --> 00:45:27,821 with in some of the interviews I've just seen. 817 00:45:27,821 --> 00:45:29,307 And Adoli, they mentioned, yeah, this. 818 00:45:29,307 --> 00:45:31,367 I hadn't been a driver before I've gotten into this. 819 00:45:31,367 --> 00:45:33,587 So that is really interesting because you're right. 820 00:45:33,587 --> 00:45:38,567 I've talking with my friend that is a pretty common issue is finding drivers and 821 00:45:38,567 --> 00:45:41,085 having kind of retaining them, especially. 822 00:45:41,085 --> 00:45:44,755 And the one thing that we never thought about that came up once we put the trucks 823 00:45:44,755 --> 00:45:49,215 into operation was the drivers were able to make it back to the depots quicker, 824 00:45:49,215 --> 00:45:50,975 sometimes by 20 or 30 minutes. 825 00:45:50,975 --> 00:45:52,195 And we asked them why. 826 00:45:52,195 --> 00:45:57,125 And they said in stop and go traffic, when the car ahead of them starts to move in a 827 00:45:57,125 --> 00:46:01,505 diesel truck, you have a delay because you've got to get everything spun up. 828 00:46:01,505 --> 00:46:03,635 You've got to get through the gears to get things moving. 829 00:46:03,635 --> 00:46:07,405 And by that time, you've got a gap that someone from a different lane has pulled 830 00:46:07,405 --> 00:46:07,835 into. 831 00:46:07,835 --> 00:46:09,555 I mean, you've got to stop again. 832 00:46:09,555 --> 00:46:11,525 And this continues over and over again. 833 00:46:11,525 --> 00:46:16,335 With an electric truck, how you do a step on the accelerator and you never create 834 00:46:16,335 --> 00:46:19,235 that gap that other cars are dodging into. 835 00:46:19,235 --> 00:46:23,535 And so the trucks were being able to go from Port of LA or Port of Long Beach and 836 00:46:23,535 --> 00:46:28,065 back to the depot, sometimes 20 or 30 minutes quicker because they were able to 837 00:46:28,065 --> 00:46:31,035 keep that gap closed and stay with traffic. 838 00:46:31,635 --> 00:46:35,725 And the drivers loved it because they weren't constantly irritated by people 839 00:46:35,725 --> 00:46:37,415 slipping in front of them. 840 00:46:39,099 --> 00:46:39,759 Right. 841 00:46:39,759 --> 00:46:41,879 And they could make more lights instead of getting stopped. 842 00:46:41,879 --> 00:46:44,699 That's really interesting, but it makes a lot of sense. 843 00:46:46,159 --> 00:46:49,269 Is there anything else you want to add to the kind of the TCO or kind of that 844 00:46:49,269 --> 00:46:54,169 conversation of things that you've noticed can change minds kind of unexpectedly when 845 00:46:54,169 --> 00:46:56,787 you're having that conversation around electrification of semis? 846 00:46:56,787 --> 00:47:05,487 Just the simple nature of it, talking to people about technical change, a lot of 847 00:47:05,487 --> 00:47:10,117 them will say that they're interested in going electric because they've started to 848 00:47:10,117 --> 00:47:15,207 drive an electric car, or their child has an interest in driving an electric car, 849 00:47:15,267 --> 00:47:19,967 who's due to come take over the business and they've just finished business school 850 00:47:19,967 --> 00:47:24,327 and they're pushing dads to look at what's coming next with technology. 851 00:47:24,371 --> 00:47:25,531 things like that. 852 00:47:25,531 --> 00:47:29,601 So, you know, we've seen a lot of kind of interest from the incoming generations 853 00:47:29,601 --> 00:47:36,091 that really want to do maybe not the right thing as I would term it, as far as the 854 00:47:36,091 --> 00:47:39,441 environment's concerned, but the right thing for their business, which is to 855 00:47:39,441 --> 00:47:41,431 follow what technology is leading them. 856 00:47:44,123 --> 00:47:44,723 Gotcha. 857 00:47:44,723 --> 00:47:45,443 That's interesting. 858 00:47:45,443 --> 00:47:49,453 Um, and I guess there is actually one other area we've kind of talked about, but 859 00:47:49,453 --> 00:47:51,113 haven't discussed directly. 860 00:47:51,113 --> 00:47:52,703 And I'd be curious to get your thoughts on. 861 00:47:52,703 --> 00:47:56,903 And that's a big discussion around electrification is data. 862 00:47:56,903 --> 00:47:59,673 And especially when you talk about fleet management and some of the things that 863 00:47:59,673 --> 00:48:04,083 that can unlock, you kind of talked about of even leveraging that to figure out how 864 00:48:04,083 --> 00:48:08,773 you choose the right routes first and kind of make it the most, uh, efficient of 865 00:48:08,773 --> 00:48:10,283 making that investment. 866 00:48:10,563 --> 00:48:13,363 Is there anything else you can kind of share around that? 867 00:48:13,403 --> 00:48:18,823 kind of impact that you're seeing around using data more and any kind of more data 868 00:48:18,823 --> 00:48:23,563 first approaches that electrification has really unlocked for fleet management and 869 00:48:23,563 --> 00:48:26,005 people who operate electric semis. 870 00:48:26,771 --> 00:48:31,601 You don't charge a fleet successfully without using data management and charge 871 00:48:31,601 --> 00:48:32,291 management. 872 00:48:32,291 --> 00:48:35,111 You have to be smart about it. 873 00:48:35,111 --> 00:48:43,181 One of the first fleets to Evergo Electric was a Foothill Ranch bus service in Los 874 00:48:43,181 --> 00:48:44,131 Angeles. 875 00:48:44,251 --> 00:48:52,121 And they did not factor in demand charges to their total cost of fueling the buses 876 00:48:52,121 --> 00:48:53,411 with electricity. 877 00:48:53,411 --> 00:48:56,311 And they got hit with some massive bills. 878 00:48:56,371 --> 00:49:01,411 because they hadn't thought about that when they had modeled going to electric 879 00:49:01,411 --> 00:49:04,391 truck buses for their service. 880 00:49:04,391 --> 00:49:08,731 Granted, they were very far on the leading edge of this. 881 00:49:08,731 --> 00:49:11,351 So was the utility that provided them. 882 00:49:11,351 --> 00:49:14,991 And there was a lot of learnings that everybody came in contact with with that 883 00:49:14,991 --> 00:49:16,031 rollout. 884 00:49:16,031 --> 00:49:21,231 But a smart charge service avoids high demand charges. 885 00:49:21,231 --> 00:49:24,131 It avoids high cost per kilowatt charges. 886 00:49:24,131 --> 00:49:25,911 It maximizes. 887 00:49:26,163 --> 00:49:32,993 the capability and capacity of your current charge system, how much power 888 00:49:32,993 --> 00:49:37,603 needs to be dispensed to the trucks, the lowest cost potential per kilowatt hour, 889 00:49:37,603 --> 00:49:42,953 potentially the greenest kilowatt hour you can provide to your fleet based on when 890 00:49:42,953 --> 00:49:45,023 wind and solar power is available. 891 00:49:45,023 --> 00:49:48,783 All those things have to be combined into a very smart system that can dispense 892 00:49:48,783 --> 00:49:49,651 power. 893 00:49:49,651 --> 00:49:52,151 in the most efficient way possible. 894 00:49:52,151 --> 00:49:57,551 So yes, data has a huge role to play in deciding which of those fleet vehicles go 895 00:49:57,551 --> 00:50:02,311 electric first, how that power is then dispensing the vehicles in the most 896 00:50:02,311 --> 00:50:04,311 efficient and cost effective way. 897 00:50:04,691 --> 00:50:11,091 And it's really important to work with a partner or become intelligent enough with 898 00:50:11,091 --> 00:50:14,631 that sort of data that you can make those decisions yourself. 899 00:50:14,631 --> 00:50:17,295 Most of the large fleets I know are... 900 00:50:17,295 --> 00:50:20,417 depending on the apartment because it's a big nut to crack. 901 00:50:22,875 --> 00:50:23,315 For sure. 902 00:50:23,315 --> 00:50:27,225 And I know bright drop, which is Jim's kind of commercial and even especially 903 00:50:27,225 --> 00:50:32,795 Ford through their, uh, try and remember what essentially their, uh, their 904 00:50:32,795 --> 00:50:34,375 commercial program as well. 905 00:50:34,375 --> 00:50:37,955 They're saying that's where they're making so much money too is around essentially 906 00:50:37,955 --> 00:50:42,565 the data service that they are selling in addition to these electric transit 907 00:50:42,565 --> 00:50:44,345 vehicles and stuff like that. 908 00:50:44,345 --> 00:50:49,475 And so it is kind of an interesting, uh, full package solution that these and 909 00:50:49,475 --> 00:50:53,127 software, uh, integration that is. 910 00:50:53,883 --> 00:50:57,393 I don't know if it's, I think some of it's indirectly, but a lot of it is just 911 00:50:57,393 --> 00:51:01,663 complimentary services being sold by going through electrification. 912 00:51:01,663 --> 00:51:06,223 And that's unlocking a lot more potential financially and even kind of in that 913 00:51:06,223 --> 00:51:10,183 example, time savings and where to make those investments to have the largest 914 00:51:10,183 --> 00:51:11,219 impact first. 915 00:51:11,219 --> 00:51:12,149 pays for itself. 916 00:51:12,149 --> 00:51:19,689 I mean, simply reducing your charging demand when the utility needs more power 917 00:51:19,689 --> 00:51:25,279 and other places on the grid can not only save you money, but make you money. 918 00:51:25,279 --> 00:51:30,019 And so if you have a system that's able to respond to those demand signals from the 919 00:51:30,019 --> 00:51:34,339 utility, your fleet can literally make money by lowering your charging speed. 920 00:51:34,339 --> 00:51:39,619 But you have to have a system that knows what the signal is, when it needs to go 921 00:51:39,619 --> 00:51:40,735 into effect. 922 00:51:40,847 --> 00:51:45,707 whether or not it's gonna affect your fleet charging and customer needs, and if 923 00:51:45,707 --> 00:51:48,587 it can be put into effect and then actually effectuate it. 924 00:51:48,587 --> 00:51:53,117 So, all those things have to be done successfully for you to be able to take 925 00:51:53,117 --> 00:51:54,823 advantage of that, something like that. 926 00:51:56,795 --> 00:51:59,715 And that does seem to kind of go into the fact. 927 00:51:59,715 --> 00:52:02,695 Oh, I think my camera just died. 928 00:52:02,875 --> 00:52:07,035 But I think it's fine. 929 00:52:07,555 --> 00:52:10,215 Let me just try and see if I can switch this word. 930 00:52:10,215 --> 00:52:12,695 I realize we've kind of gone over time as it is. 931 00:52:12,695 --> 00:52:16,625 So I'm going to try and make this quick, but it's interesting going through with 932 00:52:16,625 --> 00:52:21,385 all these different kind of data solutions, how it also could kind of help 933 00:52:21,385 --> 00:52:24,335 with a location that's trying to charge. 934 00:52:25,147 --> 00:52:29,497 And figure out the balancing and working with the utility of leveraging the 935 00:52:29,497 --> 00:52:35,587 advantage of going to like, uh, using or installing a large battery backup system 936 00:52:35,587 --> 00:52:42,657 on that location to help with leveling out and minimizing demand charges, but then 937 00:52:42,657 --> 00:52:45,203 also using to sell it back at night as well. 938 00:52:45,203 --> 00:52:51,073 Yep, no micro grid and battery electric storage, I think are gonna be kind of the 939 00:52:51,073 --> 00:52:58,353 two Swiss army knife solutions, especially for commercial fleets that are gonna be 940 00:52:58,353 --> 00:53:01,983 really, really useful going forward, avoiding those demand charges. 941 00:53:01,983 --> 00:53:06,683 So a demand charge, most people don't know because it's really only applied to 942 00:53:06,683 --> 00:53:12,443 commercial fleets or commercial businesses is if you have... 943 00:53:13,107 --> 00:53:17,497 you have a line essentially that if you cross, your electricity charge goes up 944 00:53:17,497 --> 00:53:18,227 substantially. 945 00:53:18,227 --> 00:53:24,627 So it behooves you to always stay below that demand value as best you can. 946 00:53:24,627 --> 00:53:28,207 And so if you have a big demand that suddenly come on because you've got four 947 00:53:28,207 --> 00:53:33,227 trucks that rolled up, they all plugged in, they all need a fast charge, you get a 948 00:53:33,227 --> 00:53:36,427 big spike in demand, you've crossed your line that you really don't wanna cross 949 00:53:36,427 --> 00:53:39,607 with the utility, where else are gonna get power from? 950 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,479 hits your on -site battery electric storage that can kick in, bring your 951 00:53:43,479 --> 00:53:49,429 overall site demand down to that below or at that demand line, but still be able to 952 00:53:49,429 --> 00:53:51,859 provide the power to the trucks that need to charge. 953 00:53:51,859 --> 00:53:54,821 And then once that demand. 954 00:53:54,821 --> 00:53:59,481 Mead has tapered off, the battery can slowly recharge from the grid, staying 955 00:53:59,481 --> 00:54:02,131 under that line and it's available for the next use. 956 00:54:02,131 --> 00:54:06,761 Or in your case, when the utility needs it, when they have a big demand going, 957 00:54:06,761 --> 00:54:09,111 they can say, hey, can I have some of that power, please? 958 00:54:09,111 --> 00:54:12,411 I'll pay you this amount of kilowatt per kilowatt for it. 959 00:54:12,411 --> 00:54:15,301 And again, you can make money by feeding it back into the grid. 960 00:54:18,523 --> 00:54:24,603 Yeah, and I think that is probably a good place to kind of, one final thing. 961 00:54:24,863 --> 00:54:29,033 And I realize we've gone away over time and I think I asked this of a lot of 962 00:54:29,033 --> 00:54:35,003 guests, but it is what they would like to see there from government or the private 963 00:54:35,003 --> 00:54:39,143 sector to kind of change and help with electrification. 964 00:54:39,143 --> 00:54:43,833 My guess is that you would like to see this really mostly through a better 965 00:54:43,833 --> 00:54:46,459 charging infrastructure for semis. 966 00:54:46,491 --> 00:54:50,579 But I'd be curious if there's anything else you would say or add to that. 967 00:54:51,411 --> 00:54:58,271 Right now, if there's a site that's being built for commercial truck power, it needs 968 00:54:58,271 --> 00:55:00,071 10 to 12 megawatts. 969 00:55:00,071 --> 00:55:03,971 Nobody has that kind of what they call headroom, that extra power laying around. 970 00:55:03,991 --> 00:55:09,051 And so the lead time on that is five, sometimes 12 to 15 years, which is just 971 00:55:09,051 --> 00:55:12,761 much longer than we have if we're gonna try and duck under the emissions 972 00:55:12,761 --> 00:55:16,001 requirements we need to cut down on. 973 00:55:17,533 --> 00:55:18,883 trucks in the road. 974 00:55:18,983 --> 00:55:24,133 So there needs to be some letting loose of the reins for the utilities to start 975 00:55:24,133 --> 00:55:31,253 moving prior to the consumer indication that they need the power so that when the 976 00:55:31,253 --> 00:55:34,503 customer does come for a particular site there is enough headroom and there's 977 00:55:34,503 --> 00:55:38,563 enough available power so the utilities can provide quicker service to those 978 00:55:38,563 --> 00:55:40,603 customers for those charging sites. 979 00:55:40,643 --> 00:55:40,861 So 980 00:55:40,861 --> 00:55:43,031 It is a big change. 981 00:55:43,031 --> 00:55:45,831 I liken it to an increase in gravity. 982 00:55:46,111 --> 00:55:51,381 So a power utility from the point that Thomas Edison kind of discovered 983 00:55:51,381 --> 00:55:56,581 electricity and they started to move it around New York till today was they really 984 00:55:56,581 --> 00:56:01,671 didn't need to respond to any particular request in under 24 months because you 985 00:56:01,671 --> 00:56:04,819 couldn't build a new building or a new demand. 986 00:56:04,819 --> 00:56:06,159 in under 24 months. 987 00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:09,299 If you're building a new apartment building or a new Walmart or whatever it 988 00:56:09,299 --> 00:56:12,759 was, you really couldn't build it any faster than 18 to 24 months. 989 00:56:12,759 --> 00:56:17,039 And so the utility never needed to move any faster than that. 990 00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:21,439 Today, you can pick up the phone and say, hey, I want 20 electric semis delivered to 991 00:56:21,439 --> 00:56:22,259 my site. 992 00:56:22,259 --> 00:56:25,289 And they could potentially be there in three to four months, potentially even 993 00:56:25,289 --> 00:56:28,059 sooner when they really start to get up from serious production. 994 00:56:28,179 --> 00:56:34,459 So the utilities just really have to get used to a heavier gravity as it were. 995 00:56:34,459 --> 00:56:34,707 So. 996 00:56:34,707 --> 00:56:37,787 suddenly they've gone from 24 months to 2 .4 months. 997 00:56:37,787 --> 00:56:40,567 And so gravity has increased 100 fold. 998 00:56:40,687 --> 00:56:45,767 They need the structure to change. 999 00:56:45,767 --> 00:56:47,117 They need the speed to change. 1000 00:56:47,117 --> 00:56:50,637 And they need a little bit of loosening of the reins in the right direction so that 1001 00:56:50,637 --> 00:56:55,237 they can operate quicker and get ahead of what's coming because it's coming for 1002 00:56:55,237 --> 00:56:56,667 every municipality. 1003 00:56:56,667 --> 00:57:01,941 There's 3 ,000 utilities in the United States and they all need to be able to. 1004 00:57:02,611 --> 00:57:06,951 change with this massive switch in technology from internal combustion engine 1005 00:57:06,951 --> 00:57:08,891 to electrification and transportation. 1006 00:57:12,315 --> 00:57:18,195 I could not agree with you more and my camera's dead, but I think now we 1007 00:57:18,195 --> 00:57:19,305 definitely have gone over time. 1008 00:57:19,305 --> 00:57:20,505 This has been super fascinating. 1009 00:57:20,505 --> 00:57:22,305 I want to say thank you so much for coming on. 1010 00:57:22,305 --> 00:57:25,485 I know this, I've learned a lot and I know a lot of the people who are listening have 1011 00:57:25,485 --> 00:57:29,585 definitely learned a lot about the electric semi -space and how much of a big 1012 00:57:29,585 --> 00:57:33,525 difference that's going to make with electrification and sustainability that 1013 00:57:33,525 --> 00:57:34,795 everyone is hoping for. 1014 00:57:34,795 --> 00:57:39,251 So thank you so much for coming on today and we'll have to have you on again soon. 1015 00:57:39,251 --> 00:57:40,331 Pleasure, Chase. 1016 00:57:40,331 --> 00:57:43,511 Anybody want to come over to Portugal, ring me up, follow me on LinkedIn. 1017 00:57:43,511 --> 00:57:46,157 Always happy to have a conversation about electrification transportation. 1018 00:57:51,460 --> 00:57:55,660 As we bring this electrifying two -part interview with Rustam Kocher to a close, 1019 00:57:55,660 --> 00:57:59,560 we want to express our deepest gratitude to Rustam for sharing his unparalleled 1020 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,040 insights and experiences with us here on Grid Connections. 1021 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:07,050 His deep dive into the total cost of ownership, the groundbreaking entrance of 1022 00:58:07,050 --> 00:58:10,820 the Tesla Semi, and the potential of vehicle -to-grid technology has provided 1023 00:58:10,820 --> 00:58:14,650 us with a clearer view of the road ahead for the trucking industry and sustainable 1024 00:58:14,650 --> 00:58:15,860 transportation. 1025 00:58:15,860 --> 00:58:19,430 If Rustam's journey and the topics we've discussed have sparked your interest or 1026 00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:20,452 inspired you, 1027 00:58:20,452 --> 00:58:21,812 Don't keep it to yourself. 1028 00:58:21,812 --> 00:58:24,882 Share this episode with someone who shares your passion for the cutting edge of 1029 00:58:24,882 --> 00:58:26,712 technology and transportation. 1030 00:58:26,712 --> 00:58:29,872 By spreading the word, you help us grow and continue to bring enlightening 1031 00:58:29,872 --> 00:58:32,152 conversations to our community. 1032 00:58:32,212 --> 00:58:35,012 Remember, the conversation doesn't end here either. 1033 00:58:35,012 --> 00:58:38,382 Keep up with the latest developments in tech and transport by subscribing to our 1034 00:58:38,382 --> 00:58:39,892 weekly newsletter. 1035 00:58:39,892 --> 00:58:43,012 It's your gateway to the stories and insights that matter most in a rapidly 1036 00:58:43,012 --> 00:58:46,007 evolving world, and you can find it in today's show notes. 1037 00:58:46,007 --> 00:58:47,687 We also want to hear from you. 1038 00:58:47,687 --> 00:58:51,267 If there's a subject you're curious about or a visionary you'd love to hear from on 1039 00:58:51,267 --> 00:58:53,287 Grid Connections, reach out to us. 1040 00:58:53,287 --> 00:58:57,517 Your suggestions and feedback are the lifeblood of our show, helping us to cater 1041 00:58:57,517 --> 00:59:00,248 to the interests and curiosities that drive you. 1042 00:59:00,248 --> 00:59:03,538 For those who are intrigued to learn more about Rustam Kocher and his current 1043 00:59:03,538 --> 00:59:06,788 projects, we've included detailed information in the show notes for today's 1044 00:59:06,788 --> 00:59:07,548 episode. 1045 00:59:07,548 --> 00:59:11,788 Be sure to check them out for a deeper dive in the innovation shaping our future. 1046 00:59:11,788 --> 00:59:14,868 Thank you for joining us for this special two -part interview on Grid Connections, 1047 00:59:14,868 --> 00:59:17,726 and until next week, this is the Grid Connections podcast signing