WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.710 Matt: It's an emergency pod. 00:00:01.770 --> 00:00:02.560 Mark Szymanski. 00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:03.430 That's what we're doing today. 00:00:03.450 --> 00:00:04.530 An emergency pod. 00:00:04.530 --> 00:00:07.060 Never thought I would stoop so low, but here we are. 00:00:09.019 --> 00:00:10.189 Emergency. 00:00:10.570 --> 00:00:11.650 It's not an emergency. 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:14.239 Listen, we're going to happy to have everybody, joining 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.000 this emergency live pod today. 00:00:17.450 --> 00:00:18.470 I don't even like the word pod. 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.740 I rally against that word, quite often in the podcasting space, but 00:00:21.740 --> 00:00:24.420 we're going to just have a discussion because it's fresh in our mind. 00:00:24.430 --> 00:00:24.810 Really. 00:00:25.630 --> 00:00:26.770 At least it is for me. 00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:29.850 watching some live streams this morning, I'll show those in a moment. 00:00:30.010 --> 00:00:32.080 We're going to talk about the sort of frustrations that a 00:00:32.080 --> 00:00:33.930 lot of folks have been sharing. 00:00:34.875 --> 00:00:38.935 Not just this year, but for the last 20 years of WordPress, and how we've 00:00:38.935 --> 00:00:41.345 sort of maybe got to this point. 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:46.884 And I think that, Hey, things are exactly the same, as they were a decade ago, 15 00:00:46.885 --> 00:00:50.864 years ago, except now, Hey, there's more people, there's much more attention on it. 00:00:50.864 --> 00:00:54.035 And we're really dissecting a lot of the same challenges, that 00:00:54.045 --> 00:00:55.995 we've had, For many, many years. 00:00:56.005 --> 00:00:59.665 So happy to have people join this conversation and happy to be here with 00:00:59.665 --> 00:01:03.524 you, Mark Szymanski, as always, not just listening to your voicemails, but seeing 00:01:03.524 --> 00:01:05.564 your wonderful face live on YouTube. 00:01:06.354 --> 00:01:07.274 It's always a pleasure, Matt. 00:01:07.274 --> 00:01:09.185 Thank you so much for having me, as always. 00:01:10.160 --> 00:01:12.340 Do you want to tee up while I coordinate this? 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.240 Do you want to tee up today's live stream that we watch? 00:01:15.250 --> 00:01:17.190 I'm going to pull it up so we can see it, but Paul Charlton 00:01:17.190 --> 00:01:20.260 launched, went live today, but can you tee that up for the audience? 00:01:20.260 --> 00:01:23.220 Let them know what it was, that was going down, what the topic was 00:01:23.220 --> 00:01:24.500 and what we're going to react to. 00:01:25.240 --> 00:01:25.520 Mark: Yeah. 00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.590 You know what I can give maybe. 00:01:28.585 --> 00:01:31.135 some speculative context to around it a little bit. 00:01:31.135 --> 00:01:33.345 So obviously we have the Bridge Builder series, Matt Eastwood 00:01:33.355 --> 00:01:35.765 is the, you know, the head of that with me, Brendan O'Connell. 00:01:35.805 --> 00:01:39.265 And, we had a recent episode, it was on Friday with, Anne 00:01:39.265 --> 00:01:41.525 Beauvelette and, Max Seibel. 00:01:41.555 --> 00:01:43.315 And that was a pretty interesting thing. 00:01:43.315 --> 00:01:46.015 But the reason I think that's related is cause we clipped out a piece of that 00:01:46.015 --> 00:01:50.665 where Anne was specifically talking about, like kind of like influencers 00:01:50.665 --> 00:01:54.750 and like, do we have a, As influencers and WordPress people like that, people 00:01:54.750 --> 00:01:58.330 that have audiences, should we kind of talk more about, and create kind 00:01:58.330 --> 00:02:01.260 of dialogue, like more, kind of like the idea of like contributing more 00:02:01.260 --> 00:02:04.450 directly to WordPress rather than just like kind of like shouting out our 00:02:04.450 --> 00:02:08.410 opinions into the void, and seeing like who follows that and stuff like that. 00:02:08.760 --> 00:02:11.340 Which, obviously, big topic, we'd have to dissect all that. 00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:15.140 But I feel like maybe this was, a little bit, kind of related to that. 00:02:15.350 --> 00:02:17.890 Regardless if it was directly related, it definitely had, you 00:02:17.890 --> 00:02:19.670 know, the same topic to talk about. 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.810 so it's just back and forth a little bit on that, and that is what, I was really 00:02:23.810 --> 00:02:25.320 excited to see this live stream today. 00:02:25.590 --> 00:02:30.670 So, I saw it came up in my subscriptions, and, Paul, WP Toots, for some of you guys 00:02:30.670 --> 00:02:35.440 that may not know his name, Paul Charlton, put that up there, and it was him, Imran 00:02:35.470 --> 00:02:41.520 from WebSquadron, Mark Crowell from, WikiDesign, and also Jeffrey at Lightbox. 00:02:41.990 --> 00:02:43.150 all great content creators. 00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:46.280 So, yeah, it was a really good live stream that, that they put on. 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:48.770 And, I know I was watching it, Matt was watching it, a lot of 00:02:48.770 --> 00:02:50.610 other people were watching it, and we just had a lot of ideas. 00:02:50.610 --> 00:02:54.160 So that's kind of where we are right now, just kind of giving our thoughts. 00:02:54.160 --> 00:02:56.710 Because this is a very important topic, regardless of your opinion on it. 00:02:56.710 --> 00:02:57.940 There's a lot of nuance here that needs 00:03:00.015 --> 00:03:03.145 Matt: So I threw in the chat for right now, the clip from the Bridge 00:03:03.145 --> 00:03:05.165 Builders series, with Amber Vallette. 00:03:05.495 --> 00:03:09.075 And, right up on the screen as well, we have Paul Charlton, friend of the 00:03:09.075 --> 00:03:14.235 show, and, Imran from WebSquadron, I've never synced up with him, although 00:03:14.235 --> 00:03:17.315 I would love to, you know, but he, they switched the, the live stream 00:03:17.315 --> 00:03:20.295 over to his channel because Paul was having some connection issues. 00:03:20.585 --> 00:03:23.535 It's always going to come off probably in the wrong light that we're doing, 00:03:23.825 --> 00:03:27.175 that we're doing this and reacting to this video because obviously I have 00:03:27.175 --> 00:03:32.769 some strong opinions on, some of the answers or some of the commentary in 00:03:32.769 --> 00:03:38.217 today's, I am, obviously a proponent of, of open source fan of WordPress. 00:03:38.217 --> 00:03:41.027 I think everyone generally always throws out the general statement 00:03:41.027 --> 00:03:44.357 that we're all fans of WordPress and we just want to see it do better. 00:03:44.587 --> 00:03:47.167 I have a particular angle, as you know, Mark, and a lot 00:03:47.167 --> 00:03:48.037 of people watching the show. 00:03:48.867 --> 00:03:51.257 You know, I have this particular angle on WordPress. 00:03:51.422 --> 00:03:55.672 What that means to, to, to love WordPress, wanted to see it 00:03:55.672 --> 00:03:57.442 succeed and to also criticize it. 00:03:57.442 --> 00:04:00.532 I've been a critic of WordPress for many years. 00:04:00.762 --> 00:04:03.702 Primarily though at the, the leadership level. 00:04:03.932 --> 00:04:06.852 Not so much the, the software side of things. 00:04:06.852 --> 00:04:09.382 Like, yeah, of course there are things where I wish this could be better. 00:04:09.612 --> 00:04:14.672 But I've never been One, to be hyper critical of how things are getting done. 00:04:15.032 --> 00:04:20.572 because, while I, appreciate designing a good product, I also, as somebody 00:04:20.572 --> 00:04:25.002 who has, I've developed products before from the product developer standpoint, 00:04:25.012 --> 00:04:29.262 not the actual punching the code into the, into the computer perspective. 00:04:29.602 --> 00:04:32.672 I appreciate a good product, I appreciate the process, and I 00:04:32.672 --> 00:04:36.182 can understand why things end up maybe being the way they are. 00:04:36.462 --> 00:04:42.217 but I'm not a front end designer, I'm not a JavaScript expert, so I can't debate 00:04:42.217 --> 00:04:46.797 or, or give hypercritical feedback on how something is done, or at least I don't 00:04:46.797 --> 00:04:50.647 feel like I can't, I should give that kind of feedback because I can't do it. 00:04:51.587 --> 00:04:51.797 Right? 00:04:51.797 --> 00:04:54.927 So like, I'm not the guy who's going to tell people, hey, it should be, you 00:04:54.927 --> 00:04:58.507 know, we discussed this with Kevin, it should be whatever, 768 pixels by default. 00:04:58.507 --> 00:05:00.257 I mean, I'm not the guy to tell you that. 00:05:00.507 --> 00:05:04.017 I'm just the guy that says this works for me or it doesn't, you know, so 00:05:04.017 --> 00:05:07.347 that's, that's like my perspective on it, but, I highlighted a couple 00:05:07.407 --> 00:05:09.437 topics from today's discussion. 00:05:09.447 --> 00:05:11.137 I think you maybe jotted some down. 00:05:11.367 --> 00:05:14.297 Let me just tell you the topics, some of the topics that I pulled and then 00:05:14.297 --> 00:05:16.037 we'll, we'll, we'll jump into them. 00:05:16.987 --> 00:05:20.277 So I wrote things down from today's live stream. 00:05:20.277 --> 00:05:22.787 If I can find it, I sent it to you. 00:05:22.797 --> 00:05:23.187 Here it is. 00:05:23.427 --> 00:05:25.967 So like open source versus ownership, I want to talk about 00:05:25.967 --> 00:05:29.787 that today and highlight a post that I've, that I've written and, 00:05:29.787 --> 00:05:31.957 and, and highlight one from DHH. 00:05:32.387 --> 00:05:35.147 From Basecamp and Ruby on Rails fame. 00:05:35.447 --> 00:05:39.087 the automatic apparatus, like it could be a five hour episode just 00:05:39.087 --> 00:05:40.997 talking about the automatic apparatus. 00:05:41.247 --> 00:05:43.797 but I do want to talk about that because some of the feedback that I heard in 00:05:43.797 --> 00:05:47.097 today's live stream is like, I wonder if people understand, I mean, I don't, 00:05:47.167 --> 00:05:52.087 I don't think I fully understand it, either, but I feel like I have a strong 00:05:52.147 --> 00:05:53.757 understanding of how automatic works. 00:05:54.067 --> 00:05:57.007 And I want to just highlight some of that today, contributing 00:05:57.267 --> 00:06:00.777 and what that means like time versus payment versus not for me. 00:06:01.057 --> 00:06:04.327 That's probably the biggest, thorn in my side from today's, from 00:06:04.347 --> 00:06:05.727 observing today's live stream. 00:06:06.167 --> 00:06:06.187 yeah. 00:06:06.317 --> 00:06:09.847 Which we'll break apart in a little bit and, prioritizing features. 00:06:09.877 --> 00:06:12.977 So open source versus ownership, automatic, the apparatus contributing 00:06:12.997 --> 00:06:15.617 versus, being paid or versus not for me. 00:06:15.727 --> 00:06:17.417 And then how, how did we end up here? 00:06:17.417 --> 00:06:19.437 Like, how did these features get prioritized? 00:06:19.887 --> 00:06:20.947 those are my big four. 00:06:21.027 --> 00:06:23.917 Did you have some big takeaways today that you want to punch into? 00:06:24.997 --> 00:06:28.217 Mark: I think that you, those ones there summarize the big 00:06:28.227 --> 00:06:31.127 takeaways from specifically from the stream really, really well. 00:06:31.127 --> 00:06:34.077 The one thing I'll say here before we get into all of it is the same 00:06:34.077 --> 00:06:38.017 thing that I kind of said to you in really, in kind of a relation to that. 00:06:38.017 --> 00:06:41.507 And it's the fact that, you know, I'm, I consider myself like relatively 00:06:41.507 --> 00:06:44.547 newer to the actual understanding of how this all works rather than 00:06:44.547 --> 00:06:46.237 just using WordPress as a tool. 00:06:46.757 --> 00:06:51.497 And I think that the big thing that I've, Maybe just the way that I am is like I 00:06:51.497 --> 00:06:54.727 like to try to break things down to like as Fundamental as possible and really 00:06:54.777 --> 00:06:59.837 understand like the things everything works as I'm trying to learn it. 00:06:59.837 --> 00:07:01.127 Like I'm asking a lot of questions, right? 00:07:01.127 --> 00:07:02.717 You know, I've had so many conversations. 00:07:02.717 --> 00:07:03.847 I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. 00:07:04.137 --> 00:07:06.867 I feel like the one thing that we could all do a little bit better is 00:07:06.937 --> 00:07:12.617 understanding that this is very nuanced and that we kind of all need to get. 00:07:13.307 --> 00:07:15.697 No matter who we are, like, if we're always just getting more educated 00:07:15.697 --> 00:07:18.487 on how everything works, then we can have a more honest discussion 00:07:18.487 --> 00:07:20.927 across the, across the board. 00:07:20.927 --> 00:07:23.377 And I'm not talking about anybody specifically, I'm just saying 00:07:23.377 --> 00:07:25.647 that's my personal philosophy on it. 00:07:25.857 --> 00:07:28.577 So that's why I love talking to guys like yourself, because you guys 00:07:28.577 --> 00:07:31.337 have been at it for a while and you understand, the ins and outs of it. 00:07:31.337 --> 00:07:33.997 And then, you know, we can kind of go from there with a conversation. 00:07:33.997 --> 00:07:35.457 So, but I like these topics. 00:07:35.457 --> 00:07:36.347 I'm excited to chat about them. 00:07:36.937 --> 00:07:40.597 Matt: I'm also not, you know, you say that a lot to me and others have said 00:07:40.617 --> 00:07:44.167 like, Hey, you've been here for, and I, you know, I'm also of the mindset 00:07:44.167 --> 00:07:45.657 that have I been here too long? 00:07:45.667 --> 00:07:46.167 Yes. 00:07:46.517 --> 00:07:49.357 Like, do I only see it from a particular angle? 00:07:49.667 --> 00:07:50.147 Yes. 00:07:50.487 --> 00:07:54.187 I was just talking in the last episode with Corey Miller on the podcast 00:07:54.217 --> 00:07:59.327 and, you know, when I talk to folks like you and others who just don't 00:07:59.337 --> 00:08:02.947 understand, like, why maybe they say word camps are the way they are. 00:08:03.702 --> 00:08:07.002 You know, we came from a time, I guess it's all like pre COVID, 00:08:07.012 --> 00:08:09.902 where there were many types of WordPress events that were happening. 00:08:10.152 --> 00:08:14.162 Pressnomics sort of being like a flagship business focused 00:08:14.172 --> 00:08:17.322 WordPress event that happened, was a company I worked at, Pagely. 00:08:18.152 --> 00:08:19.512 And, that happened for many years. 00:08:19.752 --> 00:08:21.042 That was, like, the thing. 00:08:21.042 --> 00:08:23.122 Like, so many people were hyped to go to that, because it was very 00:08:23.122 --> 00:08:26.482 business focused, and a lot of deals got done, and you just saw 00:08:26.482 --> 00:08:27.732 the business side of WordPress. 00:08:28.122 --> 00:08:31.352 Loop comp for developers, like, there was a time where these, 00:08:31.352 --> 00:08:33.512 like, other events were happening. 00:08:34.002 --> 00:08:37.082 You know, so when folks come into the community like you, like in a post COVID 00:08:37.092 --> 00:08:39.922 world where they're kind of like trying to figure out events again, you're 00:08:39.922 --> 00:08:41.732 like, why, why doesn't this exist? 00:08:42.192 --> 00:08:45.332 And I, maybe for like the old folks in the group where it's like, oh yeah, 00:08:45.332 --> 00:08:49.012 we had that at one time and we're forgetting to like relay that to you or 00:08:49.012 --> 00:08:51.662 to like understand we need that back. 00:08:51.702 --> 00:08:53.772 Like we need these types of things back. 00:08:54.092 --> 00:08:57.292 So it's sort of like, you know, the waves have crashed on the 00:08:57.292 --> 00:08:58.442 shore and they're pulling away. 00:08:58.442 --> 00:08:58.812 Yeah. 00:08:58.972 --> 00:09:02.402 Like, Oh yeah, at one time we had all that and now it doesn't exist. 00:09:02.412 --> 00:09:04.442 Let's get this stuff going for folks. 00:09:05.342 --> 00:09:07.542 I want to talk about, let's talk about this WordPress, 00:09:07.682 --> 00:09:09.032 open source ownership thing. 00:09:09.112 --> 00:09:13.962 I think this is a great post, and I should probably pull up my own site as well. 00:09:13.962 --> 00:09:15.112 That way we have that. 00:09:15.132 --> 00:09:19.142 I wrote a post a couple weeks ago called, what would we do 00:09:19.142 --> 00:09:20.882 with the keys to the kingdom? 00:09:21.242 --> 00:09:24.272 And I referenced, this is the post, what would we do with the keys to the kingdom? 00:09:24.272 --> 00:09:26.822 I'll throw that in chat as well. 00:09:27.682 --> 00:09:32.212 I referenced this post by, David Hanson from, Hedmeyer Hanson from 00:09:32.352 --> 00:09:35.892 Basecamp, again, started Ruby on Rails open source project. 00:09:36.922 --> 00:09:40.852 And he writes, open source is neither a community nor a democracy. 00:09:40.852 --> 00:09:43.732 I'm not going to, obviously, read the whole post here, but I, I implore 00:09:43.732 --> 00:09:45.242 folks to go ahead and read this. 00:09:45.762 --> 00:09:49.252 This is something that I think is very true and is what triggered me 00:09:49.252 --> 00:09:52.852 to say what would we do with the keys to the kingdom if we had it. 00:09:52.852 --> 00:09:57.952 Like a lot of us air our grievances online and on live streams like this and 00:09:57.952 --> 00:09:59.782 podcasts and blogs and Twitter threads. 00:10:00.322 --> 00:10:03.452 What would we really do if we were the ones in control? 00:10:04.242 --> 00:10:06.182 I don't, I don't think it would be any better. 00:10:06.202 --> 00:10:08.832 In fact, I would probably guess it would be worse. 00:10:09.487 --> 00:10:13.467 because as David points out, like, there needs to be somebody who's getting it 00:10:13.467 --> 00:10:19.867 done, getting the job done, setting the direction, and sort of, that's the 00:10:19.867 --> 00:10:23.947 person, that's the leader of the project, and in our case, it's, it's Mullenweg. 00:10:24.217 --> 00:10:28.327 And I don't think, and I'm, and I fully stand behind that as the decision. 00:10:28.407 --> 00:10:31.837 There are things I don't like about it, but I still fully stand behind that 00:10:31.837 --> 00:10:36.757 decision because I still have enough, Confidence in his ability to, to do 00:10:36.757 --> 00:10:40.377 this with, you know, the criticisms that I would still give along the way. 00:10:40.807 --> 00:10:41.797 this is a fantastic piece. 00:10:41.797 --> 00:10:43.747 I think everyone should read this because what it's saying 00:10:43.747 --> 00:10:44.807 is like, Yeah, you don't own it. 00:10:45.147 --> 00:10:46.287 Like, we don't own this. 00:10:46.637 --> 00:10:47.317 That's the thing. 00:10:47.587 --> 00:10:52.877 Like, we, it's, it's open source and we can kind of fall into this, gray area 00:10:53.097 --> 00:10:55.567 where, Oh my God, like this is ours. 00:10:55.567 --> 00:10:58.387 We all have this say, but we don't. 00:10:59.467 --> 00:11:03.127 in the, in the fundamental direction of where the project is going. 00:11:04.327 --> 00:11:07.307 We can have say on little things that happen along the way. 00:11:07.537 --> 00:11:09.387 I get, and I talked about this last week. 00:11:09.527 --> 00:11:14.762 I think it was you live when, we got our little feature put into WordPress 6. 00:11:14.762 --> 00:11:15.167 6. 00:11:15.167 --> 00:11:15.897 Perfect example. 00:11:15.907 --> 00:11:16.417 It was showed up. 00:11:16.427 --> 00:11:21.357 We, we said something, we made a post on GitHub, an issue, people developed it. 00:11:21.387 --> 00:11:22.827 It went in, we got credit. 00:11:23.127 --> 00:11:24.297 Like, that's awesome. 00:11:24.307 --> 00:11:26.647 That's the cool thing about open source and you can make these changes. 00:11:27.012 --> 00:11:28.892 Massive fundamental direction. 00:11:29.152 --> 00:11:32.342 We're probably going to have less of a chance to have that, 00:11:33.432 --> 00:11:36.722 to have that opportunity for us because we're not in control. 00:11:37.762 --> 00:11:39.602 Open source doesn't mean we own it. 00:11:40.112 --> 00:11:41.422 We can just partake in it. 00:11:41.762 --> 00:11:43.202 that's just my particular view. 00:11:43.622 --> 00:11:45.202 I'd love to have your thoughts on that mark. 00:11:45.202 --> 00:11:46.622 If you have something else. 00:11:47.417 --> 00:11:47.927 Mark: Yeah, for sure. 00:11:47.927 --> 00:11:51.267 So I hadn't ever seen that article and I know we were talking about it 00:11:51.267 --> 00:11:52.587 last week and you sent that to me. 00:11:52.597 --> 00:11:54.937 I would highly recommend if you guys haven't read that article, 00:11:54.957 --> 00:11:56.837 from DHH, it's great stuff. 00:11:56.917 --> 00:11:59.567 I think the thing that it, it, it pointed out to me, because again, 00:11:59.567 --> 00:12:03.317 I'm trying to navigate this space and understand like where everybody's like 00:12:03.527 --> 00:12:05.397 kind of mentally at with a lot of this. 00:12:05.417 --> 00:12:09.097 I do think there's some absolutely just across the board again. 00:12:09.502 --> 00:12:13.252 To differing degrees definitely some misunderstanding between like what open 00:12:13.252 --> 00:12:17.702 source is and what that actually means From my understanding currently where 00:12:17.702 --> 00:12:21.572 i'm at for my framework is open source doesn't mean anything really about the 00:12:21.572 --> 00:12:25.172 community per se It's more so much more about like the licensing of the software. 00:12:25.172 --> 00:12:28.962 So like gpl version 2 I was actually looking it up today because i'm trying 00:12:28.962 --> 00:12:30.337 to Wrap my head around this too. 00:12:30.637 --> 00:12:33.777 Like it, when something says it's open source, it's just meaning 00:12:33.777 --> 00:12:35.237 like the software licensing. 00:12:35.237 --> 00:12:35.527 Right. 00:12:35.527 --> 00:12:36.497 And correct me if I'm wrong. 00:12:36.497 --> 00:12:38.747 So it's like, you can see, anyone can see the code. 00:12:39.017 --> 00:12:39.957 They can reuse the code. 00:12:39.957 --> 00:12:41.437 They can fork the code, whatever. 00:12:41.727 --> 00:12:45.037 But ultimately, there's more to it than that, but I'm saying it doesn't 00:12:45.077 --> 00:12:49.117 inherently mean that you own it as like a community member probably 00:12:49.117 --> 00:12:54.507 doesn't even really mean that you're entitled to an, like an opinion or your. 00:12:55.197 --> 00:12:59.497 Or your feature set per se, like, like it, not inherently. 00:12:59.587 --> 00:13:01.947 So then that's where all these other things come into play. 00:13:01.947 --> 00:13:05.057 And it's like, everybody uses WordPress and they get, they hear the word open 00:13:05.057 --> 00:13:08.797 source and they kind of get, sounds like a little bit misled to the fact 00:13:08.797 --> 00:13:12.847 that like, Oh, you can, like, you can just basically just scream what you 00:13:12.847 --> 00:13:14.517 want to happen and then it can happen. 00:13:16.132 --> 00:13:19.282 I, I contradict that slightly though with the fact that I don't think 00:13:19.282 --> 00:13:22.242 that would be like a bad thing, but it doesn't seem like that's 00:13:22.242 --> 00:13:24.372 inherently the way that it operates. 00:13:24.772 --> 00:13:26.982 so again, this is just kind of me trying to think of like, okay, how 00:13:26.982 --> 00:13:29.032 is it, how does it actually work? 00:13:29.332 --> 00:13:32.842 And then is there a way to make it better or something like that? 00:13:32.842 --> 00:13:36.002 But, I think the bottom line is again, the open source side of things, I 00:13:36.002 --> 00:13:39.962 think that word and that terminology and the way that it's thrown around 00:13:39.962 --> 00:13:43.212 sometimes does, I don't, I think it's just a slight misunderstanding. 00:13:44.382 --> 00:13:48.182 Perhaps from what I've seen here, because, I dunno, that's, I'm still 00:13:48.182 --> 00:13:50.362 navigating myself, like I said, but that's kind of where I'm at with it. 00:13:50.892 --> 00:13:51.102 Matt: Yeah. 00:13:51.112 --> 00:13:57.532 It's, I totally understand because I get caught up in that, as well. 00:13:57.632 --> 00:14:00.212 Sorry, I'm just playing with my, I turned my gain instead of my volume. 00:14:00.622 --> 00:14:05.242 I get caught up in that as well because I, I feel like I love it too. 00:14:05.242 --> 00:14:07.587 And I feel like I want this ownership and, I feel like I want this ownership 00:14:07.587 --> 00:14:13.047 and WordPress is in an interesting spot because unlike, let's say, Ruby on Rails, 00:14:13.047 --> 00:14:18.387 which is what, DHH is mostly referring to, like, he built, I don't even know 00:14:18.387 --> 00:14:24.807 what the technical term is, he built that coding framework, that code base to 00:14:24.847 --> 00:14:30.277 make his own products, and the byproduct was, oh, this is now open source, you 00:14:30.277 --> 00:14:34.217 too can go build your own products like I'm doing over here with Basecamp, right? 00:14:34.217 --> 00:14:39.082 So So, he built like this, what I'll call like the engine of, of Basecamp 00:14:39.102 --> 00:14:42.992 back in the day to help him build that product and, oh, by the way, I'm open 00:14:42.992 --> 00:14:44.672 sourcing this so you can do that too. 00:14:45.292 --> 00:14:51.382 It, it, WordPress, on the other hand, was created open source and then Automatic was 00:14:51.392 --> 00:14:57.512 built to help sell the dream of WordPress and they're the same exact products. 00:14:57.862 --> 00:15:01.992 So it's, it's, it's very hard to, to understand. 00:15:02.362 --> 00:15:04.912 Get yourself away, like pull yourself away from that. 00:15:05.587 --> 00:15:08.717 and say, oh, this is, this is mine because I can do it on any website. 00:15:08.747 --> 00:15:11.277 I can, I can build it, I can make it, it's all mine. 00:15:11.717 --> 00:15:13.427 But really, it's not. 00:15:14.407 --> 00:15:17.597 the GPL and Open Source affords you to go ahead and do other things, 00:15:17.597 --> 00:15:20.307 but like the overall direction of where this is going is not ours. 00:15:20.477 --> 00:15:24.817 And I think it's high time that we understand that, be okay with it, because 00:15:24.987 --> 00:15:27.267 I've said this a million times, I don't want to get into it now, but I think 00:15:27.287 --> 00:15:31.927 Automatic needs to survive in order to be the best steward of Open Source WordPress. 00:15:31.977 --> 00:15:34.007 Mark: I think we need, I think we need, I think we need to dig 00:15:34.007 --> 00:15:34.917 into that though for a second. 00:15:34.927 --> 00:15:35.207 I don't know. 00:15:35.217 --> 00:15:35.727 We're gonna. 00:15:35.797 --> 00:15:36.017 Yeah. 00:15:36.687 --> 00:15:37.037 Okay. 00:15:37.317 --> 00:15:38.957 Matt: Yeah, we'll, yeah, we'll dig into that. 00:15:39.527 --> 00:15:39.647 Okay. 00:15:39.707 --> 00:15:42.877 So let's just talk about Automattic, the apparatus. 00:15:42.887 --> 00:15:46.067 Because one of the, one of the things that came up in that conversation was, 00:15:46.067 --> 00:15:48.657 Oh, Automattic has like 900 million. 00:15:48.917 --> 00:15:50.397 What are they doing with all that money? 00:15:50.577 --> 00:15:53.937 And, and this is where, this is where I have like, a fundamental 00:15:53.937 --> 00:15:56.107 difference in like content creators. 00:15:56.127 --> 00:15:58.617 And I don't want this to come off. 00:15:58.842 --> 00:16:03.022 As like super disrespectful, but it's like if you're going to, to, to criticize us, 00:16:03.032 --> 00:16:09.872 try to understand as much as possible of, of where all of the chips lie in this, in 00:16:09.872 --> 00:16:12.502 this game, of automatic and open source. 00:16:12.902 --> 00:16:16.652 let me pull up Automattic's website and then we can share this. 00:16:16.692 --> 00:16:18.902 And this is great information for anybody who's never really, you 00:16:18.902 --> 00:16:19.892 know, taken a look at this stuff. 00:16:19.922 --> 00:16:23.672 Don't forget, been living and breathing this stuff for a while now. 00:16:23.672 --> 00:16:25.332 So, I can understand how it can be helpful. 00:16:25.892 --> 00:16:26.852 It can get overwhelming. 00:16:27.112 --> 00:16:29.332 So let's just take a look at this page. 00:16:29.332 --> 00:16:30.572 This is Automattic's homepage. 00:16:31.512 --> 00:16:35.772 Here are all the products that they are, that they have listed here, which, 00:16:36.032 --> 00:16:37.052 I don't even, yeah, so WordPress. 00:16:38.052 --> 00:16:41.062 com, Beeper, Tumblr, Day One, WooCommerce, Jetpack. 00:16:41.062 --> 00:16:44.242 WordPress VIP, which is enterprise level hosting if you've 00:16:44.242 --> 00:16:45.822 never, run across that before. 00:16:46.112 --> 00:16:49.432 Pocketcast, which is a podcast, app, podcast listening app. 00:16:49.752 --> 00:16:53.542 Akismet, which is the spam protection, product that they 00:16:53.572 --> 00:16:55.452 launched, many, many years ago. 00:16:55.722 --> 00:16:59.862 Longreads, Newspack, Gravatar, and then they also contribute WordPress. 00:16:59.862 --> 00:17:00.272 org. 00:17:00.592 --> 00:17:03.962 And then all these other, open source initiatives, WordPress for 00:17:03.962 --> 00:17:08.432 Android, WordCamp, WPJobManager, Five for the Future, right? 00:17:08.642 --> 00:17:10.792 So that's just automatic, like the core products. 00:17:11.102 --> 00:17:16.627 And then automatic is also investing and purchasing other companies. 00:17:16.927 --> 00:17:20.337 they had invested in Castos, which is a company that I worked at before. 00:17:20.687 --> 00:17:23.557 InstaWP, they've, done seed round investments in. 00:17:23.627 --> 00:17:27.207 Other WordPress, hosting companies, they've done investments in. 00:17:27.397 --> 00:17:32.047 This is like that traditional VC world, that maybe folks aren't just 00:17:32.047 --> 00:17:35.827 acquainted to, but it's not just, hey, we're giving, they're giving money 00:17:35.827 --> 00:17:38.047 to Automatic to just do WordPress. 00:17:38.437 --> 00:17:39.717 It's all the things. 00:17:40.117 --> 00:17:43.937 at, at Automatic where that money goes, right? 00:17:43.937 --> 00:17:47.487 2, 000 ish people work at that company. 00:17:47.857 --> 00:17:51.677 If we just take a look at CrunchBase, which is some of this data now is 00:17:51.697 --> 00:17:54.147 locked behind a, payment, payment wall. 00:17:54.477 --> 00:17:59.177 But recently in the WP Product Talk, interview with Mullenweg, they were 00:17:59.177 --> 00:18:00.597 talking about the size of the company. 00:18:00.597 --> 00:18:04.047 He's just over 2, 000 ish people now, at Automatic. 00:18:04.387 --> 00:18:11.012 And they're Recent funding round came from, Where they hide it now? 00:18:11.132 --> 00:18:11.582 Let's see. 00:18:11.582 --> 00:18:14.222 So the last one, it says 2021. 00:18:14.232 --> 00:18:17.032 Automatic was funded by 30 investors of Iron Global, BlackRock 00:18:17.032 --> 00:18:18.392 being the most recent investors. 00:18:18.762 --> 00:18:21.262 BlackRock should raise some eyebrows, of course, for some people. 00:18:21.592 --> 00:18:23.322 Automatic has made 19 investments. 00:18:23.322 --> 00:18:26.022 The most recent was last year, Liquid AI. 00:18:26.422 --> 00:18:29.602 It's a, it, in their recent acquisition of Beeper, 125 00:18:29.622 --> 00:18:31.142 million, that's a, messaging app. 00:18:31.512 --> 00:18:34.162 and they're, looks like they're getting more into the, into the messaging game. 00:18:34.542 --> 00:18:39.062 This is, the point I'm trying to make here is 2, 000 people, if you've ever 00:18:39.072 --> 00:18:46.532 worked in an organization with 100 people, let alone 2, 000 people, it is extremely 00:18:47.342 --> 00:18:50.132 difficult to move things forward. 00:18:50.132 --> 00:18:55.152 I'm not saying that this is The right thing, I'm just saying like this is what 00:18:55.162 --> 00:18:59.162 happens when you have an organization that grows this large, who's also 00:18:59.492 --> 00:19:02.402 trying to build a profitable company. 00:19:02.852 --> 00:19:06.442 If you look at somebody like GoDaddy publicly traded company, I think 00:19:06.442 --> 00:19:10.842 automatic roughly valued at 7 billion from blog posts and stuff that you see. 00:19:11.292 --> 00:19:14.842 but you look at somebody like a GoDaddy and you start to see 00:19:14.842 --> 00:19:18.672 their profitability, their market cap, their amount of employees. 00:19:18.672 --> 00:19:22.182 And you're like, well, Boy, they're also profiting, profiting 00:19:22.212 --> 00:19:23.482 off the back of WordPress. 00:19:23.882 --> 00:19:24.952 Why don't they do more? 00:19:24.982 --> 00:19:25.432 And they do. 00:19:25.482 --> 00:19:27.122 They do a lot, in the community. 00:19:27.362 --> 00:19:32.432 But, this is where that frustration grows at the sort of enterprise and big level. 00:19:32.602 --> 00:19:35.482 Whereas, Automatic isn't bad just because it's getting a lot of money. 00:19:35.662 --> 00:19:38.062 There's a lot of other companies with a lot more money. 00:19:38.652 --> 00:19:42.642 Also profiting off of WordPress, who should also fall under scrutiny and 00:19:42.642 --> 00:19:45.542 contribute back to WordPress as well. 00:19:45.552 --> 00:19:49.527 So, I just have a fundamental issue when it's like, they've got all this money, 00:19:49.527 --> 00:19:51.147 why aren't they making WordPress better? 00:19:52.217 --> 00:19:56.017 Because look at all the stuff that they're doing, and it's not 2, 000 people 00:19:56.027 --> 00:19:57.997 just making WordPress better, right? 00:19:58.037 --> 00:20:01.927 Of those 2, 000 people, I don't know how many people are in administrative, right? 00:20:01.957 --> 00:20:07.127 200 people, 10 percent of the company are in HR, comms, like 00:20:07.127 --> 00:20:08.447 all this other stuff, legal. 00:20:08.932 --> 00:20:12.032 you know, then you have a executive team and then you have support 00:20:12.032 --> 00:20:15.052 staff and then you have the product managers and marketers and SEO 00:20:15.052 --> 00:20:16.852 people, like, it's a big company. 00:20:17.282 --> 00:20:21.582 and it's, they're not all just pouring their resources into, into WordPress. 00:20:22.122 --> 00:20:23.302 does that make sense to you, Mark? 00:20:24.962 --> 00:20:27.742 Mark: You know, I mean, it definitely does make sense, and I hear where you're 00:20:27.742 --> 00:20:29.302 coming from with the number thing. 00:20:29.302 --> 00:20:32.012 Yeah, it definitely, you know, 900 million, I'm sure that doesn't 00:20:32.022 --> 00:20:35.502 obviously all go to, like, the WordPress project, because Automatic raised that. 00:20:35.532 --> 00:20:37.782 I mean, that makes sense, totally on paper. 00:20:37.782 --> 00:20:39.382 I mean, but again, like, I feel like 00:20:42.667 --> 00:20:44.057 I always just try to ask questions. 00:20:44.087 --> 00:20:47.747 And then the next question I would have is, Okay, who, who is, I want to know 00:20:47.777 --> 00:20:51.717 exactly as, as, as good of data as we have, which I know we do have some, I'm 00:20:51.717 --> 00:20:54.927 sure we could like find some or whatever on the actual WordPress project stuff. 00:20:55.187 --> 00:20:58.477 But like I've seen those graphs of like, Okay, automatic is like the biggest 00:20:58.477 --> 00:21:02.687 chunk of supporters, like people writing code, and then like GoDaddy is in 00:21:02.687 --> 00:21:06.542 there, or you know, 10Up is in there, people contributing to actual WordPress. 00:21:06.542 --> 00:21:09.652 So one of my questions is, I know half the answer to it, but one 00:21:09.652 --> 00:21:13.122 of my questions is okay, who is actually contributing to WordPress? 00:21:13.132 --> 00:21:18.262 So for instance, when anybody goes on the internet and says, Hey, this sucks about 00:21:18.262 --> 00:21:23.612 WordPress, like the, this feature, this UI, UX, whatever, like I don't like this. 00:21:23.652 --> 00:21:26.002 Who is that specifically? 00:21:26.162 --> 00:21:28.622 Specifically who made that decision? 00:21:30.022 --> 00:21:33.152 to make that, to put that in there, or to change something or whatever. 00:21:33.162 --> 00:21:34.722 So like, how does that actually work? 00:21:34.722 --> 00:21:38.902 Because I feel like that's a big problem where, you know, in, in private companies 00:21:38.902 --> 00:21:41.722 you don't, or, you know, public, but like, you know, actual corporations. 00:21:42.052 --> 00:21:44.462 Like, you don't really have that full clarity, but maybe you'll have 00:21:44.462 --> 00:21:48.032 like some sort of like a leadership type chart and things like that, 00:21:48.032 --> 00:21:50.392 and you'll be able to kind of like decipher some things or whatever. 00:21:50.522 --> 00:21:53.022 But like, ultimately you're just yelling at Apple, for instance, 00:21:53.022 --> 00:21:54.012 Oh, they changed something. 00:21:54.012 --> 00:21:54.832 Oh, we hate Apple. 00:21:55.262 --> 00:21:58.132 So with WordPress, I feel like it ends up just being kind of the same way, 00:21:58.162 --> 00:22:02.572 even though it doesn't operate the exact same way, I want to say, like, cause 00:22:02.572 --> 00:22:05.572 there's just seemingly people getting paid from automatic, there's people 00:22:05.572 --> 00:22:08.812 getting paid at 10 up, there's people getting paid at GoDaddy to sponsor a 00:22:08.812 --> 00:22:10.542 certain amount of hours to this project. 00:22:10.542 --> 00:22:10.762 Right. 00:22:10.762 --> 00:22:10.802 Right. 00:22:10.802 --> 00:22:11.192 And then. 00:22:11.907 --> 00:22:17.167 I don't know the, I don't know the answer here, but there's also free labor, right? 00:22:17.167 --> 00:22:18.717 That is, that is contributing to it. 00:22:18.727 --> 00:22:22.157 So that screws with people as well, like just mentally, which totally makes sense. 00:22:22.157 --> 00:22:25.447 It's like, who, who is like contributing for free? 00:22:25.447 --> 00:22:26.617 Like, how does that work? 00:22:26.797 --> 00:22:29.107 and then you have conversations like we'll probably get into like, 00:22:29.157 --> 00:22:30.457 well, why would I contribute? 00:22:30.877 --> 00:22:35.107 Regardless of code, why would I contribute in GitHub or Slack or wherever for free? 00:22:35.327 --> 00:22:38.097 Because people are making money from me doing this. 00:22:38.977 --> 00:22:43.167 And then the rebuttal to that is like, well, you contributing is how the open 00:22:43.167 --> 00:22:45.197 source project continues to flow forward. 00:22:45.197 --> 00:22:47.197 So it's kind of like you are helping yourself, even though 00:22:47.197 --> 00:22:47.947 you're not getting paid. 00:22:48.287 --> 00:22:50.577 There's a lot of, I just expressed a lot of different things there. 00:22:50.577 --> 00:22:53.517 But I'm telling you, like, this is from like, we'll call it like more 00:22:53.537 --> 00:22:54.747 boots on the ground type thing. 00:22:54.747 --> 00:22:55.477 I'm in the comments. 00:22:55.477 --> 00:22:57.277 I'm in, you know, making content. 00:22:57.277 --> 00:22:58.387 I'm watching other people's streams. 00:22:58.437 --> 00:22:59.027 I'm on Twitter. 00:22:59.197 --> 00:23:02.627 These are the types of questions that people just don't know the answers to. 00:23:03.117 --> 00:23:06.547 And it's not really their fault because it's so goddamn nuanced. 00:23:06.957 --> 00:23:09.077 that it's, it's so difficult. 00:23:09.087 --> 00:23:12.057 Like I've spent the last 12 months of my life trying to figure this out. 00:23:12.057 --> 00:23:16.137 And I consider myself to be kind of of this mindset where I can dive in 00:23:16.137 --> 00:23:18.827 and deal with this and try to figure it out and try to piece it out. 00:23:19.287 --> 00:23:21.787 And one of my goals is to hopefully come out on the other side and be 00:23:21.787 --> 00:23:25.037 like, Hey, this is really nuanced, but here's like a crash course because 00:23:25.037 --> 00:23:26.307 I haven't seen anything like that. 00:23:26.307 --> 00:23:28.197 I wish I wish something like that would exist. 00:23:28.617 --> 00:23:29.207 so I don't 00:23:31.207 --> 00:23:33.827 Matt: Once again, like understanding the value of open 00:23:33.827 --> 00:23:35.987 source and, and what we have. 00:23:35.987 --> 00:23:38.367 So in my post, what would you do the keys of the kingdom? 00:23:38.367 --> 00:23:43.767 I say, look, it's, it's totally fine to be a critic, to be critical. 00:23:43.807 --> 00:23:46.047 Obviously, if you're not bashing people, I think everybody says that. 00:23:46.397 --> 00:23:49.897 and everyone says, yes, I love, I love WordPress, but what you have to just 00:23:49.927 --> 00:23:54.857 understand is where the value of open source gives you the ability to build your 00:23:54.857 --> 00:23:57.567 own business on the back of WordPress. 00:23:58.852 --> 00:24:01.532 is quite powerful and also very understated. 00:24:01.722 --> 00:24:05.092 I think it came up in Paul's live stream today where somebody said, 00:24:05.092 --> 00:24:06.312 well, what would happen if it was five? 00:24:06.342 --> 00:24:10.922 I don't think you wouldn't get this kind of amplification for WordPress 00:24:10.922 --> 00:24:14.212 and it certainly would not have grown this large for obvious reasons if it 00:24:14.212 --> 00:24:18.272 wasn't, open source and you won't be able to do that with another platform. 00:24:18.272 --> 00:24:22.352 Like you simply can't do it with a commercial Wix Squarespace, platform. 00:24:22.492 --> 00:24:26.512 Webflow, because those are all hosted things and there's no portability 00:24:26.512 --> 00:24:27.752 there, it's just off the table. 00:24:28.112 --> 00:24:33.462 So you have to be able to say, I value that ability for me to just take this, 00:24:33.482 --> 00:24:38.492 start a business, replicate it with as many sites as I want without being taxed. 00:24:38.922 --> 00:24:39.182 Right? 00:24:39.892 --> 00:24:42.702 Mark: Is there a way, can I throw a monkey wrench in here for just a second Doug? 00:24:42.702 --> 00:24:47.792 Cause you have said this many times to me, and while I don't disagree with it, I do 00:24:47.792 --> 00:24:54.402 think that this is kind of where we talk about the, you know, the the current gen 00:24:54.402 --> 00:24:55.932 versus the next gen and stuff like that. 00:24:55.942 --> 00:25:00.402 Like from what I see, and I'm not saying this is, I don't have data per se, but 00:25:00.402 --> 00:25:06.082 from what I see, people are becoming more and more and more casual and carefree 00:25:06.122 --> 00:25:08.432 about like losing control of their data. 00:25:08.742 --> 00:25:11.802 And I don't know if that is like something that can be stopped. 00:25:12.162 --> 00:25:14.162 So, you know, we don't need to go down a rabbit hole here. 00:25:14.172 --> 00:25:17.902 All I'm saying is like, when you make the claim of this is open source and 00:25:17.902 --> 00:25:20.432 you can't, you're like, you're not going to have the same impact with 00:25:20.432 --> 00:25:21.702 something that's not open source. 00:25:22.267 --> 00:25:24.717 I'm not, I'm not saying that I want that to happen. 00:25:24.747 --> 00:25:29.187 I'm just saying that like people are so, so quick to just give up their shit 00:25:29.197 --> 00:25:33.417 nowadays that like they don't even think like these, like, and again, I'm not, I'm 00:25:33.417 --> 00:25:34.607 not, I'm not trying to judge these people. 00:25:34.607 --> 00:25:35.577 I'm making observations. 00:25:35.947 --> 00:25:39.607 They watch a Wix ad and they're like, this is fantastic. 00:25:39.607 --> 00:25:40.327 Super easy. 00:25:40.367 --> 00:25:42.157 I'm going to, I'm just going to jump on there and use it. 00:25:42.297 --> 00:25:44.057 Like they don't even think twice about. 00:25:44.952 --> 00:25:46.102 Like, where is this data? 00:25:46.132 --> 00:25:49.062 What's going to happen if this, if these people jack up my rights? 00:25:49.082 --> 00:25:51.902 What's going to happen if like I say something and they kick me off here? 00:25:52.062 --> 00:25:54.382 Like, they don't think about any of that until it happens. 00:25:54.672 --> 00:25:58.532 So and, and if those things continue to happen, maybe people will care more. 00:25:58.532 --> 00:26:00.992 But I'm saying like, I mean, you know, the phones that we have and the 00:26:00.992 --> 00:26:03.752 different things like, I mean, the phones is a great example because we 00:26:03.752 --> 00:26:05.162 have Apple and we have Google basically. 00:26:05.322 --> 00:26:07.802 And then we have like, you know, these other types of phones where it's like, 00:26:07.822 --> 00:26:09.712 Oh, you don't have, you know, not connected to the internet or whatever. 00:26:09.982 --> 00:26:12.682 So I'm not trying to get off topic here, but I'm saying that I, I wouldn't 00:26:12.692 --> 00:26:16.807 just like, you Make it seem like this is always going to be the case, 00:26:16.827 --> 00:26:20.557 because there's It doesn't seem like it's even trending in that direction. 00:26:20.567 --> 00:26:21.787 It seems like it's trending away from that. 00:26:22.137 --> 00:26:25.937 Matt: Yeah, you gotta, open source isn't just about, Oh, this is, this is my data. 00:26:25.967 --> 00:26:29.867 Like, that's not the, that's not the argument for open source and data. 00:26:30.227 --> 00:26:34.477 and in fact, like, what data do I actually have on my website? 00:26:34.717 --> 00:26:36.337 When you, people just think of data, right? 00:26:36.387 --> 00:26:39.967 I immediately go to, well, Every single one of my credit cards have been 00:26:39.967 --> 00:26:42.487 compromised by, you know, by, by them. 00:26:43.157 --> 00:26:45.867 AT& T was, and they sent out an email and they're like, 00:26:45.907 --> 00:26:47.257 here's how you can protect it. 00:26:47.477 --> 00:26:47.957 moving forward. 00:26:47.957 --> 00:26:49.837 How about you protect my data? 00:26:49.837 --> 00:26:52.447 You're like, why are you yelling at me and telling me not to 00:26:52.447 --> 00:26:53.937 answer phone calls from Spain? 00:26:53.947 --> 00:26:55.337 You know, the market is spam. 00:26:55.337 --> 00:26:56.457 You're the one that got breached. 00:26:56.777 --> 00:27:01.487 So there's data like your customer data, your customer identifying, information. 00:27:02.232 --> 00:27:04.212 And in WordPress, I think people kind of throw that around. 00:27:04.312 --> 00:27:07.012 It's certainly about the content, in your WordPress site. 00:27:07.162 --> 00:27:09.662 And for me, it's much more of that, like, technical reason, 00:27:09.662 --> 00:27:11.182 is I can be portable with it. 00:27:11.392 --> 00:27:15.732 I can, I can take that content from one web host to another web host, or I can 00:27:15.732 --> 00:27:20.292 extract it, or archive it how and when I want, and I can manipulate that, right? 00:27:20.292 --> 00:27:22.622 So, yes, WordPress allows you to do that. 00:27:22.642 --> 00:27:25.002 And yes, WordPress is, is open source. 00:27:25.502 --> 00:27:31.377 you know, so, I, I think that the argument is, for open source for 00:27:31.377 --> 00:27:34.177 the, for the reason that we're going to jump into, you know, right now. 00:27:34.177 --> 00:27:36.507 And one of the things, let me just share the screen again. 00:27:36.747 --> 00:27:40.107 One of the things that come up, and I'm going to try to zoom in and do this so 00:27:40.107 --> 00:27:44.262 that it's as easily Readable as possible. 00:27:44.262 --> 00:27:45.552 I'm trying to do it with two hands here. 00:27:45.552 --> 00:27:46.422 Hold on one second. 00:27:46.422 --> 00:27:46.992 So zoom in. 00:27:46.992 --> 00:27:52.432 So this is the, the Gutenberg GitHub, repo WordPress doesn't operate, and, either 00:27:52.432 --> 00:27:54.562 Zach or or Brian, if you're in there. 00:27:54.892 --> 00:27:58.457 none of the, the comments, for WordPress core are in GitHub. 00:27:58.457 --> 00:28:03.297 This is, that is all in, track and WordPress legacy, like SVN. 00:28:03.627 --> 00:28:06.807 It's That's a whole other stream that we can go into, but if we look at 00:28:06.817 --> 00:28:10.557 just Gutenberg, because they are using GitHub for all of the communication 00:28:10.557 --> 00:28:15.877 here, this is the value of, this is the other value of open source, right, 00:28:15.887 --> 00:28:20.477 is that we can actually see it and see this stuff being developed, right? 00:28:20.807 --> 00:28:23.367 Sure, are things happening behind the scenes? 00:28:23.722 --> 00:28:26.372 That are not being, you know, documented and they're in slack. 00:28:26.372 --> 00:28:28.152 The conversations are happening in slack. 00:28:28.172 --> 00:28:29.022 Absolutely. 00:28:29.232 --> 00:28:30.672 Do I think it's nefarious? 00:28:30.732 --> 00:28:32.872 No, it's just the way of life, right? 00:28:33.022 --> 00:28:36.512 It's like you have conversations with, if you're, if you're at a job 00:28:36.512 --> 00:28:38.882 and you have a meeting with somebody, you're talking to them in zoom or in 00:28:38.882 --> 00:28:40.902 person, that stuff isn't documented. 00:28:40.902 --> 00:28:41.962 Things happen, right? 00:28:42.282 --> 00:28:42.652 So. 00:28:42.732 --> 00:28:47.212 So, what this open source project allows us is to see the stuff happen 00:28:47.792 --> 00:28:52.682 and we can analyze it and also comment on it and, and see it in real time. 00:28:52.682 --> 00:28:56.242 So when people say, why did they do that? 00:28:57.647 --> 00:29:01.607 We can see it right here, in something like, like GitHub, 00:29:01.617 --> 00:29:03.597 especially for the Gutenberg project. 00:29:03.607 --> 00:29:06.157 So that's what this open source project affords us. 00:29:06.167 --> 00:29:08.227 It affords us that, that visibility. 00:29:08.557 --> 00:29:11.197 This is also a, a hat tip to version control. 00:29:11.237 --> 00:29:12.927 Mark, you and I talk about this a lot. 00:29:13.187 --> 00:29:17.617 This is all done in GitHub, a version control type of, tool so that we can 00:29:17.617 --> 00:29:22.657 go back and see everything that's happened, over the course of all 00:29:22.657 --> 00:29:24.827 of their releases, tie it back. 00:29:25.052 --> 00:29:26.622 To a particular thing. 00:29:26.622 --> 00:29:28.822 So add example for query block and post lists. 00:29:29.042 --> 00:29:31.202 This is the issue where it all sort of stem from. 00:29:31.422 --> 00:29:34.242 You can now click that and say, why did they do that? 00:29:34.542 --> 00:29:37.662 And you can see it was started, by a particular person. 00:29:37.662 --> 00:29:39.112 I don't know exactly what this is. 00:29:39.152 --> 00:29:40.822 Add example for query block and post lists. 00:29:40.832 --> 00:29:44.852 But as an example, you can see what the, the thing was, why. 00:29:45.427 --> 00:29:49.297 Exists should exist, how it's going to get done examples, so on and so forth. 00:29:49.297 --> 00:29:53.097 And you can track the whole thing and see it all come together. 00:29:53.347 --> 00:29:55.587 on GitHub, if we go, can I jump in here? 00:29:55.657 --> 00:29:56.217 Yeah, go for it. 00:29:56.557 --> 00:29:56.917 Mark: Okay. 00:29:56.917 --> 00:30:00.957 So, so I just had kind of like a moment here where I like pieced 00:30:00.957 --> 00:30:01.677 a bunch of things together. 00:30:02.167 --> 00:30:04.097 There's a general sentiment that 00:30:06.107 --> 00:30:11.297 not backed by data, but there's a general sentiment that like GitHub and 00:30:11.297 --> 00:30:16.197 the Slack, this, that whole situation, which again, Difficult to manage 00:30:16.197 --> 00:30:19.267 something of this size, but GitHub and Slack and like in track, I don't know 00:30:19.267 --> 00:30:21.837 what track is, but like, I haven't gotten there yet, but like all these 00:30:21.837 --> 00:30:25.747 different things to like manage this open source project, people have said, 00:30:25.837 --> 00:30:27.497 and we've actually seen, we have seen. 00:30:28.672 --> 00:30:31.982 examples of this on, on Twitter and stuff like that or X or whatever, 00:30:31.982 --> 00:30:34.662 like to say like, Oh, you know, the code base is getting kind 00:30:34.662 --> 00:30:35.722 of like, it's hard to jump in. 00:30:35.722 --> 00:30:37.322 It's hard to like, understand different things like that. 00:30:37.322 --> 00:30:39.062 It's hard to get involved in all that sort of stuff. 00:30:39.242 --> 00:30:41.642 Because I mean, there's probably a reasonable amount of people that have 00:30:41.642 --> 00:30:44.402 never used GitHub or don't use it like frequently enough to understand 00:30:44.402 --> 00:30:45.212 kind of what's going on there. 00:30:45.412 --> 00:30:47.352 I'm not saying it shouldn't be hard or whatever. 00:30:47.352 --> 00:30:48.862 But like, there's a general sentiment there. 00:30:48.862 --> 00:30:51.892 I feel like it is hard to get involved, or people don't know where to start. 00:30:51.932 --> 00:30:54.942 I have personally educated people after I learned from guys like you, 00:30:55.152 --> 00:30:57.042 how to go where to go things like that. 00:30:57.052 --> 00:30:59.422 So I think we're moving in the right direction there, but it 00:30:59.422 --> 00:31:00.392 is kind of difficult there. 00:31:00.432 --> 00:31:01.272 I don't have an answer for that. 00:31:01.687 --> 00:31:05.987 But I want to reference that article that you made and you had me read 00:31:05.987 --> 00:31:09.417 with from DHH where he mentions in there It's not a democracy. 00:31:09.417 --> 00:31:13.227 It's not like a community It's more of like there's a level of elitism and it's 00:31:13.227 --> 00:31:18.417 not in a bad way the elitism But it's like a level of elitism I I relate that in this 00:31:18.417 --> 00:31:21.627 case to like you have to understand how to use these tools You have to understand 00:31:21.627 --> 00:31:25.547 the language that's going on You have to understand the the way to get involved and 00:31:25.547 --> 00:31:28.512 actually It's a way for you to actually impact and do something if you want. 00:31:28.852 --> 00:31:31.762 Which is interesting to me because you juxtapose that with the idea 00:31:31.762 --> 00:31:32.982 of democratizing publishing. 00:31:32.982 --> 00:31:35.632 Which the tool itself actually does. 00:31:35.972 --> 00:31:36.392 Correct. 00:31:36.792 --> 00:31:40.522 But utilize, or moving it forward is not, those things 00:31:40.522 --> 00:31:41.822 are disjointed from one another. 00:31:41.952 --> 00:31:43.822 Which again, I'm not saying is a bad thing, but it is 00:31:43.832 --> 00:31:45.542 the reality of the situation. 00:31:45.852 --> 00:31:49.662 So, It's just kind of a weird spot where, like, if, if you and I weren't 00:31:49.672 --> 00:31:52.082 having this conversation for the last 12 months, like, there's no way 00:31:52.082 --> 00:31:55.362 anybody would understand that whole, that whole juxtaposition of all that. 00:31:55.892 --> 00:31:56.142 Matt: Yeah. 00:31:56.192 --> 00:31:56.472 Because it's 00:31:56.472 --> 00:31:57.202 Mark: way too nuanced. 00:31:57.742 --> 00:32:00.862 Matt: Well, yeah, but it's also, it's, I don't know, unfortunate is the right 00:32:00.862 --> 00:32:06.082 word, but it's, it's the unfortunate sort of messiness to this where the tool 00:32:06.082 --> 00:32:12.062 itself, is democratizing publishing, and then the open source initiative, you 00:32:12.062 --> 00:32:15.542 know, WordPress thriving, getting people to contribute, Five for the Future. 00:32:16.442 --> 00:32:19.912 And then some of those, I guess, some of the times that those two statements 00:32:19.912 --> 00:32:22.382 can get conflated, or mixed together. 00:32:22.662 --> 00:32:25.262 So folks feel like, well, I thought we were democratizing building this thing. 00:32:25.282 --> 00:32:25.732 No, no, no. 00:32:26.432 --> 00:32:30.072 The tool itself will help us democratize publishing. 00:32:30.302 --> 00:32:33.382 but what we're doing is building this in an open source fashion. 00:32:33.922 --> 00:32:36.162 Gutenberg as an example. 00:32:36.512 --> 00:32:39.892 this is, the graph, and listen, I'm not a developer, but, I can 00:32:39.902 --> 00:32:42.532 try to understand the highway of how we're all connected here. 00:32:42.952 --> 00:32:47.182 This is the stats from the repo from 2016 to 2024, when 00:32:47.182 --> 00:32:48.512 Gutenberg project first started. 00:32:48.522 --> 00:32:54.692 Again, it's a standalone project, and plugin, that exists, outside of WordPress. 00:32:55.037 --> 00:32:56.477 And, for, for many reasons. 00:32:56.487 --> 00:32:59.787 But, one of the reasons is Matt thinks, Matt Mullenweg thinks that this project 00:32:59.787 --> 00:33:03.607 will be bigger and, and more adopted potentially than, than WordPress itself. 00:33:03.607 --> 00:33:04.277 Like Wix. 00:33:04.287 --> 00:33:07.417 Could some, one day be like, oh yeah, that Gutenberg thing is good, 00:33:07.627 --> 00:33:09.837 let's bring it and adopt it into Wix. 00:33:10.157 --> 00:33:12.507 and then therefore they would be giving back to the Gutenberg 00:33:12.547 --> 00:33:14.157 project, et cetera, et cetera. 00:33:14.717 --> 00:33:18.797 and it's just, just for those that might not know, Gutenberg stands 00:33:18.907 --> 00:33:20.627 separate, in its own separate plug in. 00:33:20.627 --> 00:33:24.152 So if you ever want The more advanced features that are being developed like 00:33:24.152 --> 00:33:28.452 this is being developed and enhanced outside of WordPress core, right? 00:33:28.452 --> 00:33:31.002 So there's all the features that are happening in Gutenberg and then 00:33:31.002 --> 00:33:33.862 there's all the features happening in WordPress and when a WordPress 00:33:33.892 --> 00:33:39.542 point release comes together They take whatever the last five or six releases 00:33:39.542 --> 00:33:42.842 from Gutenberg itself and bring it into the into the core release, right? 00:33:42.842 --> 00:33:48.382 That's a 50, 000 foot view of this and But back to the main point here is when 00:33:48.382 --> 00:33:50.392 you say who is making these decisions. 00:33:50.752 --> 00:33:53.642 you can go in and look at all the top contributors. 00:33:54.072 --> 00:33:56.002 in this, in this screen here on, on GitHub. 00:33:56.002 --> 00:33:57.022 And you can see everybody. 00:33:57.192 --> 00:33:59.032 And I'm not gonna punch into everyone here. 00:33:59.332 --> 00:34:03.352 but if we don't, if we discount, this chap here who hasn't contributed 00:34:03.352 --> 00:34:07.282 since roughly 2020, middle of 2020. 00:34:07.762 --> 00:34:11.412 the top ten contributors, not counting this person, out of 00:34:11.412 --> 00:34:14.042 the top ten contributors, eight of them are from Automatic. 00:34:15.152 --> 00:34:17.732 two of them, one is, from GoDaddy. 00:34:17.732 --> 00:34:18.722 let's see if I can see him. 00:34:19.412 --> 00:34:22.442 If you just hover over folks names, depends if they filled out their 00:34:22.442 --> 00:34:26.802 profile, but you can see, if they're getting paid from Automatic, or if 00:34:26.802 --> 00:34:29.382 they work for Automatic, it's not like it says, we get paid by Automatic. 00:34:29.672 --> 00:34:31.132 I think this is the person right here, yeah. 00:34:31.132 --> 00:34:35.602 So this, this is actually the, the, the chap that helped Brian put our, our, 00:34:36.852 --> 00:34:38.662 our little feature together, at the end. 00:34:38.972 --> 00:34:42.762 He gets sponsored by Loose Inc., L O O S Inc. 00:34:43.102 --> 00:34:44.972 so he's not Automatic, and there's one other person here 00:34:44.972 --> 00:34:46.642 on the list from, from GoDaddy. 00:34:46.852 --> 00:34:49.857 The rest here are, are Automatic, but they're not Automatic. 00:34:50.477 --> 00:34:53.637 That's just the top 10, and then you can go back and see, like, okay, who, who 00:34:53.637 --> 00:34:57.807 are all these other folks getting, you know, contributing to, Gutenberg, right? 00:34:57.807 --> 00:35:00.697 So if we go and we look at this person, it may or may not say it. 00:35:00.737 --> 00:35:02.827 Yep, so at Automatic, he works at Automatic. 00:35:03.297 --> 00:35:08.177 And that's the other thing that this open source world affords us, is we can kind 00:35:08.177 --> 00:35:09.897 of see who's putting this all together. 00:35:10.567 --> 00:35:14.537 and who's making the decisions here, and at least easily here 00:35:14.537 --> 00:35:15.717 with, with the Gutenberg thing. 00:35:16.217 --> 00:35:18.687 So when folks are like, Oh yeah, I wish it had this feature. 00:35:18.687 --> 00:35:19.817 I wish it had that feature. 00:35:19.817 --> 00:35:23.587 And you, and then you look at automatic, this is the going back to the bigger 00:35:23.627 --> 00:35:26.677 issue is you look at our magnet, why are they making these decisions? 00:35:26.677 --> 00:35:27.467 They have all this money. 00:35:28.157 --> 00:35:33.767 Because this is just one sliver of a project that Automatic is paying people 00:35:33.767 --> 00:35:36.907 to contribute to which basically helps us. 00:35:36.957 --> 00:35:40.367 Whether you like Gutenberg or not, and you don't think it's moving fast enough, 00:35:40.637 --> 00:35:45.177 all that work is contributing back to us and our customers and our friends 00:35:45.177 --> 00:35:46.607 and our clients who use this stuff. 00:35:47.372 --> 00:35:50.372 Hopefully getting better and iterating better year after year. 00:35:50.812 --> 00:35:54.292 they're the one footing the most amount of payroll out of those 00:35:54.292 --> 00:35:57.442 2, 000 people and millions and millions of dollars that they have. 00:35:57.612 --> 00:36:00.602 They're the ones contributing the most to WordPress. 00:36:00.752 --> 00:36:01.672 What does that lead to? 00:36:01.682 --> 00:36:06.882 That leads to that sort of elitism and, control, and direction. 00:36:07.052 --> 00:36:10.632 you know, that, You can or cannot agree with, totally up to you on whether 00:36:10.632 --> 00:36:12.372 or not, you know, you, you want to. 00:36:12.712 --> 00:36:15.762 but this is where, when you're saying who's doing it, you can 00:36:15.762 --> 00:36:17.272 kind of come and see it right here. 00:36:17.932 --> 00:36:24.152 Back to the issue I had on the stream, is, You know, when, I'm frustrated too, 00:36:24.152 --> 00:36:25.472 and actually I thought about doing it. 00:36:25.522 --> 00:36:28.622 I'm not going to do it today, on today's live stream, but this is a 00:36:28.802 --> 00:36:31.892 frustration that Paul brought up, that I've brought up, and many other 00:36:31.892 --> 00:36:34.602 people have brought up before, is like, why is, why are all these other 00:36:34.612 --> 00:36:36.952 settings behind the three dots, right? 00:36:37.002 --> 00:36:39.032 The three dots, the infamous three dots. 00:36:39.042 --> 00:36:41.732 Why can't I just expose that forever? 00:36:43.252 --> 00:36:43.922 How would you do it? 00:36:43.952 --> 00:36:46.652 You would come here to, let's say, Gutenberg, because I would 00:36:46.652 --> 00:36:48.893 believe that would be, that would fall under a Gutenberg issue. 00:36:48.893 --> 00:36:50.562 So I would believe that would fall under a Gutenberg issue. 00:36:51.182 --> 00:36:54.282 And you would open a ticket just like I open a ticket about putting 00:36:54.282 --> 00:36:56.672 the command in the command palette for getting to template parts. 00:36:57.002 --> 00:37:02.442 You, too, could come in here and say, I want that three dots to be exposed 00:37:02.532 --> 00:37:04.132 every time I go into a WordPress site. 00:37:04.162 --> 00:37:06.512 I don't want to have to do it every single time. 00:37:07.052 --> 00:37:07.752 I agree. 00:37:08.472 --> 00:37:09.982 How do you make that presentation? 00:37:09.992 --> 00:37:11.562 How do you propose that? 00:37:12.092 --> 00:37:15.432 You come here, you make the issue, and you start writing the proposal. 00:37:15.852 --> 00:37:18.742 But you can't just be like, Ah, I just want this thing. 00:37:18.752 --> 00:37:22.272 You know, yell it into the void, and then hope it gets done. 00:37:23.072 --> 00:37:24.082 Just not gonna happen. 00:37:24.752 --> 00:37:29.132 So, if you really want it, come here, open an issue, And then, then you'll see 00:37:29.182 --> 00:37:34.102 how software is really made because it, there's just one set of vocal people like 00:37:34.102 --> 00:37:38.172 you, me, and others who get this stuff, but WordPress is being used by so many 00:37:38.172 --> 00:37:41.102 other people that it's not just for us. 00:37:41.542 --> 00:37:44.112 And that, I think that's what that folks who are so vocal 00:37:44.112 --> 00:37:45.132 about this need to realize. 00:37:45.642 --> 00:37:45.982 Mark: Got it. 00:37:46.002 --> 00:37:46.922 That totally makes sense. 00:37:46.922 --> 00:37:47.172 Yeah. 00:37:47.202 --> 00:37:47.732 I mean, 00:37:50.317 --> 00:37:52.677 I think, you know, as a content creator, obviously we get wrapped up 00:37:52.677 --> 00:37:55.797 sometimes in like making the content for our audience who is, you know, 00:37:55.817 --> 00:38:00.237 supporting us, but, you know, we don't really have any power if we're not 00:38:00.237 --> 00:38:01.847 like going in and doing this stuff. 00:38:01.867 --> 00:38:02.737 It's amazing. 00:38:03.117 --> 00:38:04.147 I think it was Brendan. 00:38:04.727 --> 00:38:07.057 I was talking to him today and it's, it's pretty incredible that we do 00:38:07.067 --> 00:38:08.467 have the opportunity to do this. 00:38:08.467 --> 00:38:11.727 You know, we can't go into the get hubs of, you know, other big stuff, you 00:38:11.727 --> 00:38:16.067 know, big, players or wixes or whatever, you know, and do that sort of thing. 00:38:16.067 --> 00:38:19.637 So it is definitely something I should do a lot more, and I think 00:38:19.637 --> 00:38:23.737 that I just may, if I actually see something that I disagree with. 00:38:23.737 --> 00:38:26.607 Like, I think that three dot thing is a great example. 00:38:26.987 --> 00:38:31.137 I mean, just the question that I would have in response to that, though, is 00:38:33.407 --> 00:38:37.587 How are these decisions getting made initially though? 00:38:37.737 --> 00:38:41.067 Like, like I think, okay, here's the perspective that I get from some people. 00:38:41.397 --> 00:38:44.937 How did it get to this point where like so many people, even like 00:38:45.177 --> 00:38:49.722 supporters, Think that there's so many weird things about the platform. 00:38:49.722 --> 00:38:52.072 And again, I'm not going to say that I sit here and use Gutenberg every day. 00:38:52.102 --> 00:38:52.432 I don't. 00:38:52.492 --> 00:38:52.822 Okay. 00:38:53.142 --> 00:38:56.072 But I'm saying that like you, you get that from people that are actually in 00:38:56.072 --> 00:38:59.662 there often and they're like, and then, and then people that are exploring it 00:38:59.682 --> 00:39:02.822 often from a deeper base, not just the UI, but like the code and like the way 00:39:02.822 --> 00:39:05.692 it interacts with other third party tools and things like that, and it's 00:39:05.692 --> 00:39:08.132 like, how did it get to that level? 00:39:08.722 --> 00:39:10.502 Is it, is it, is it literally just. 00:39:12.642 --> 00:39:15.422 If you go in there and just have a suggestion, like what's the actual 00:39:15.422 --> 00:39:17.272 process for making that happen? 00:39:17.677 --> 00:39:22.147 You know, like, how, who, who's the end decider of like, if, if the, if 00:39:22.147 --> 00:39:25.177 the command palette should have the template part thing show up in it, that 00:39:25.177 --> 00:39:26.437 seems like a pretty straightforward one. 00:39:26.787 --> 00:39:30.177 But like, that would be my next, my next line of thinking is, because I 00:39:30.187 --> 00:39:32.687 think that is definitely something that some, that people have said as well. 00:39:32.687 --> 00:39:35.842 It's like, well, they're doing that cost benefit analysis in their head. 00:39:35.842 --> 00:39:37.532 They're like, okay, well, I can make content. 00:39:37.532 --> 00:39:38.722 I could talk about some stuff. 00:39:38.722 --> 00:39:39.982 I could talk about all these different things. 00:39:39.982 --> 00:39:40.312 Okay. 00:39:40.582 --> 00:39:42.922 That I know that that is working to some extent. 00:39:42.922 --> 00:39:44.502 I know that that's resonating with people. 00:39:44.502 --> 00:39:47.102 I know that people are, you know, appreciating that content. 00:39:47.102 --> 00:39:47.942 It's thought provoking. 00:39:47.952 --> 00:39:48.192 Okay. 00:39:48.502 --> 00:39:51.237 So then somebody comes to me and they say, Hey, you know, you should really 00:39:51.237 --> 00:39:54.307 go into the GitHub and, and write all this stuff up and do all these 00:39:54.307 --> 00:39:57.587 different things to, to make sure that these actually get pushed in. 00:39:57.967 --> 00:39:59.067 Fair, fair thing. 00:39:59.127 --> 00:39:59.657 Fair point. 00:39:59.887 --> 00:40:03.847 But then they're like, okay, well, I'm not getting paid by, you know, 00:40:03.847 --> 00:40:07.027 I'm not getting paid to, sponsored to, to produce any of this content 00:40:07.027 --> 00:40:08.237 or contribute or anything like that. 00:40:08.237 --> 00:40:09.397 We already had that discussion. 00:40:09.397 --> 00:40:12.257 It's a, it's a fair point, but there's definitely counters to that. 00:40:12.877 --> 00:40:17.047 But then the question becomes, if they like, are there people like 00:40:17.047 --> 00:40:20.607 putting stuff in, like putting a bunch of, is there somebody is 00:40:20.717 --> 00:40:21.797 super straightforward question. 00:40:21.967 --> 00:40:26.107 Is there somebody in like deep in the contribute, contributor aspect of 00:40:26.107 --> 00:40:29.937 Gutenberg that has put in like 100 issues and none of them have ever gotten taken? 00:40:29.937 --> 00:40:30.307 Yeah. 00:40:31.597 --> 00:40:32.737 So like, there, see what I'm saying? 00:40:32.777 --> 00:40:35.637 Like, that's, that's like, why am I even going to do that? 00:40:35.657 --> 00:40:37.227 I'm not, I'm playing devil's advocate here. 00:40:37.297 --> 00:40:40.277 Why would I even like put anything in there if it's not 00:40:40.277 --> 00:40:41.617 going to even get like seen? 00:40:41.757 --> 00:40:45.582 Cause then you have I could absolutely see a case where like you have people 00:40:45.582 --> 00:40:49.602 put stuff in there and their, their reputation has already preceded them. 00:40:50.062 --> 00:40:51.842 And then they're not going to get the stuff. 00:40:51.922 --> 00:40:53.722 This stuff isn't going to get taken up anyway. 00:40:53.802 --> 00:40:58.022 That's not a reason to not do it because I think three steps ahead, if you 00:40:58.022 --> 00:41:00.842 actually did that and put that in there and then again, didn't get taken up. 00:41:01.012 --> 00:41:04.327 Now you make a video and you say, guys, I told them to do 00:41:04.327 --> 00:41:06.087 this, and they didn't do it. 00:41:06.317 --> 00:41:06.707 Matt: Yeah, 00:41:06.917 --> 00:41:07.237 Mark: yeah. 00:41:07.307 --> 00:41:08.147 So that's actually a 00:41:08.147 --> 00:41:08.977 Matt: brilliant plan. 00:41:09.567 --> 00:41:09.737 Yeah. 00:41:10.367 --> 00:41:12.777 Yeah, and that's a hundred percent. 00:41:13.067 --> 00:41:16.757 And that's why punching into that one specific issue that I have. 00:41:17.362 --> 00:41:20.222 with the live stream today, like the only hard criticism I have against, 00:41:20.252 --> 00:41:23.512 the guys that, that hosted that panel today was the fact that it was 00:41:23.512 --> 00:41:25.152 like, it's not my job to do this. 00:41:25.182 --> 00:41:27.692 I'm not gonna, you know, go and, and do that. 00:41:27.692 --> 00:41:28.722 I don't have time for that. 00:41:28.722 --> 00:41:32.222 Well, man, if you're in this living and breathing it and making a living 00:41:32.442 --> 00:41:35.622 off of creating content for WordPress and you don't have the time, I don't 00:41:35.632 --> 00:41:39.362 think many people in the audience are gonna have the time or the care, 00:41:39.602 --> 00:41:42.887 or the understanding to really, You know, follow this through, right? 00:41:42.887 --> 00:41:44.657 They said something, Oh, 500 people watching this, maybe 00:41:44.657 --> 00:41:45.647 50 people go and do something. 00:41:45.647 --> 00:41:46.157 I doubt it. 00:41:46.267 --> 00:41:49.147 If you're not going to do it and you're representing a fact that you 00:41:49.147 --> 00:41:52.727 won't do it, then I don't think anyone in your audience is going to do it. 00:41:53.257 --> 00:41:55.837 But 100 percent this is when I had the same thing with 00:41:55.837 --> 00:41:56.887 the conversation with Kevin. 00:41:57.207 --> 00:41:59.847 You have to be able to meet in the middle. 00:42:00.372 --> 00:42:05.652 And be like, okay, I'll spend time on your side, and you spend time on my side. 00:42:05.652 --> 00:42:09.142 Because the same thing's happening, on the automatic side, and the contributor side. 00:42:09.142 --> 00:42:10.882 They're not, they're saying, I'm not gonna watch, there's so many 00:42:10.882 --> 00:42:13.612 videos, how am I gonna watch an hour long video of these people? 00:42:13.762 --> 00:42:15.392 Like, they're just gonna say the same thing. 00:42:15.712 --> 00:42:16.702 sorry, I left that comment on. 00:42:17.577 --> 00:42:21.797 so there needs to be some participation and you and I, are seeing that and 00:42:21.827 --> 00:42:24.197 other folks who are on this, on the live stream right now are seeing 00:42:24.197 --> 00:42:28.307 this from Automattic with like Anne McCarthy trying to reach out to, to 00:42:28.307 --> 00:42:31.557 YouTube creators and sort of extending that olive branch from Automattic. 00:42:31.847 --> 00:42:34.707 I'm seeing it too from like the media core side, trying to get 00:42:34.717 --> 00:42:36.377 more sort of, organized content. 00:42:36.497 --> 00:42:39.047 Content and information out to content creators. 00:42:39.307 --> 00:42:43.787 So it's slowly happening I think people are just really upset about the velocity 00:42:43.787 --> 00:42:48.337 and just simply can't understand why it takes so long Because of the because 00:42:48.337 --> 00:42:53.767 of the size of this apparatus that we have in front of us It just it's just 00:42:53.777 --> 00:42:58.287 going to take time and and I don't know any other way the other way around it. 00:42:58.567 --> 00:43:00.807 How do these things get decided on? 00:43:01.037 --> 00:43:05.347 Hey, even I'm not 100 percent sure, and I love anybody in the audience, 00:43:05.407 --> 00:43:07.417 like Courtney, I saw you, jump in. 00:43:07.957 --> 00:43:10.647 I don't even know how all the decisions are made, and I think that that's 00:43:10.667 --> 00:43:13.507 largely what everyone has, an issue with. 00:43:13.527 --> 00:43:17.767 But you have the core vision of the phases that Mullenweg, spelled out. 00:43:18.177 --> 00:43:22.417 Many years ago, we're on the third phase, right? 00:43:22.497 --> 00:43:25.947 I think fourth phase, third phase, of the, of the Gutenberg project. 00:43:26.317 --> 00:43:29.757 And, He sets the general tone and direction. 00:43:29.997 --> 00:43:31.127 It's him, right? 00:43:31.187 --> 00:43:35.627 That's why he is still a lead contributor here in WordPress, even though I 00:43:35.637 --> 00:43:38.817 don't even know if he's writing lines of code being contributed to it. 00:43:38.827 --> 00:43:42.187 He's just, the guy who's, who's, who's leading that direction. 00:43:42.197 --> 00:43:43.847 And again, I don't have any problem with it as long as 00:43:43.847 --> 00:43:45.257 somebody's leading it, right? 00:43:45.267 --> 00:43:46.987 Somebody needs to lead it and have a vision. 00:43:47.877 --> 00:43:50.117 then there are, oh, I forgot, my screen's not up. 00:43:50.117 --> 00:43:50.647 One second. 00:43:50.857 --> 00:43:53.627 And then there are, Things like this that happen. 00:43:54.517 --> 00:43:59.227 I don't know 100 percent how people, I just randomly search on make WordPress 00:43:59.247 --> 00:44:03.307 for the word proposal because these are, these are how things can happen. 00:44:03.607 --> 00:44:05.517 starting at the, say, wordpress. 00:44:05.517 --> 00:44:06.797 org and make level. 00:44:07.137 --> 00:44:11.977 People will do proposals to have things happen on either the wordpress. 00:44:13.187 --> 00:44:15.947 org site and for, you know, the team around it. 00:44:15.957 --> 00:44:19.587 So that's just, One other column of all the, how this happens. 00:44:19.897 --> 00:44:23.747 people write out a proposal, they put the idea out and people. 00:44:24.267 --> 00:44:26.917 Talk about it, and then eventually something happens. 00:44:27.147 --> 00:44:31.427 And whether that whole conversation happens here in these comments, in this 00:44:31.437 --> 00:44:35.517 little comment section, and eventually it leads into something changing, or 00:44:35.517 --> 00:44:38.687 there's a Slack group that's happening, and people are chatting there, and 00:44:38.687 --> 00:44:40.247 then it makes its way into the project. 00:44:40.707 --> 00:44:44.217 Yes, this is where, like, that disjointedness happens, where there's so 00:44:44.217 --> 00:44:46.027 many different pockets of communication. 00:44:46.797 --> 00:44:49.217 But at least there's pockets of communication happening, and 00:44:49.217 --> 00:44:51.127 it's all out mostly in the open. 00:44:51.537 --> 00:44:56.067 So there's just many areas that impact WordPress and these conversations 00:44:56.067 --> 00:44:58.107 are happening all over the place. 00:44:58.597 --> 00:44:59.907 Do you wanna put that link in the chat? 00:45:01.207 --> 00:45:03.122 Cause like, Like, this is an example. 00:45:03.122 --> 00:45:03.882 This is just an example. 00:45:03.882 --> 00:45:05.982 I just searched for the word proposal. 00:45:06.082 --> 00:45:06.492 I got 00:45:06.493 --> 00:45:07.872 Mark: you. 00:45:07.872 --> 00:45:09.382 But apparently, I've seen that before. 00:45:09.512 --> 00:45:11.402 Proposals with other things and stuff like that. 00:45:11.403 --> 00:45:13.622 Can we use this as a quick example though? 00:45:13.972 --> 00:45:16.492 I don't want to put Javier on blast here. 00:45:16.502 --> 00:45:17.692 Because I'm sure he's a fantastic individual. 00:45:17.692 --> 00:45:17.948 Let 00:45:17.948 --> 00:45:18.974 Matt: me read Courtney's comment. 00:45:18.974 --> 00:45:21.972 In the other open source project proposals have a formal process 00:45:22.312 --> 00:45:24.992 with that community's designated people like core committers. 00:45:25.592 --> 00:45:29.572 have a period of RFCs, requests for comments, WordPress doesn't have this. 00:45:29.792 --> 00:45:30.102 Mark: Mm. 00:45:30.422 --> 00:45:30.862 There you go. 00:45:30.892 --> 00:45:31.142 Okay. 00:45:31.143 --> 00:45:32.192 That kind of answers my question. 00:45:32.192 --> 00:45:37.052 So like this, like a proposal like this for whatever from anybody happens and 00:45:37.052 --> 00:45:40.412 then it's like I, a random person would jump in here and read it and I would 00:45:40.412 --> 00:45:41.722 say, okay, I kind of agree with it. 00:45:41.722 --> 00:45:42.652 Kind of don't agree with it. 00:45:42.702 --> 00:45:43.492 This is a great idea. 00:45:43.492 --> 00:45:44.222 This is a stupid idea. 00:45:44.222 --> 00:45:44.822 Whatever it is. 00:45:44.972 --> 00:45:46.302 Maybe voice my opinion there. 00:45:46.422 --> 00:45:47.952 But then what happens next? 00:45:47.952 --> 00:45:48.922 Because it's not like. 00:45:49.142 --> 00:45:50.792 This isn't supposed to be democratic, right? 00:45:50.982 --> 00:45:53.872 Like, let me, let me pose some, some scenarios here, because this is how I, 00:45:53.882 --> 00:45:55.752 this is how I learn to understand things. 00:45:56.272 --> 00:46:00.882 So, we have whoever puts a proposal in here, and then underneath this, we 00:46:00.882 --> 00:46:04.382 could have 55 people that say, this is the worst idea I've ever heard. 00:46:04.792 --> 00:46:08.582 And then, then though, because this isn't like, democratic driven by the 00:46:08.592 --> 00:46:13.402 people, could we have whoever the, whoever the, Like what happens next? 00:46:13.402 --> 00:46:16.222 Like, what if the, is there somebody that like kind of monitors 00:46:16.222 --> 00:46:19.442 these and says, nope, actually, I disagree with you 55 people. 00:46:19.452 --> 00:46:20.682 This is a fantastic idea. 00:46:20.692 --> 00:46:21.212 We're doing it. 00:46:21.222 --> 00:46:22.432 Is, can it work like that? 00:46:22.452 --> 00:46:24.472 Or am I, I'm just guessing, I don't know. 00:46:24.922 --> 00:46:26.762 Because I'm really confused on how this part works. 00:46:26.932 --> 00:46:28.422 Do we, we don't have a process for that? 00:46:29.722 --> 00:46:33.172 Matt: for this particular, you know, I, I would imagine for this particular 00:46:33.172 --> 00:46:37.522 thing, I guess it also depends on is it something that's impacting, WordPress. 00:46:37.522 --> 00:46:42.452 org, like the site, which is this particular post WordPress hosting 00:46:42.452 --> 00:46:48.037 directory, but the software is, is Can and could happen without, 00:46:48.097 --> 00:46:49.947 you know, this official, proposal. 00:46:50.007 --> 00:46:50.217 Yeah. 00:46:50.267 --> 00:46:52.647 Daniel says, this is the same discussion we keep having going all the way 00:46:52.647 --> 00:46:55.327 back to WordPress and the foundation, how decisions are being made. 00:46:55.327 --> 00:46:55.867 A hundred percent. 00:46:56.317 --> 00:46:57.047 Courtney said, I'm correct. 00:46:57.047 --> 00:46:57.707 I trust Courtney. 00:47:00.037 --> 00:47:01.367 Mark says, yeah, Mark, you're correct. 00:47:01.777 --> 00:47:03.477 tonic loads of, loads of discussion. 00:47:03.647 --> 00:47:04.667 zero real leadership. 00:47:05.247 --> 00:47:08.718 You know, the only thing I have an issue is when you say like, are, Are 00:47:08.728 --> 00:47:14.248 the, the leadership, is it, is it about you don't like the leadership or is it 00:47:14.488 --> 00:47:16.408 things aren't happening fast enough? 00:47:16.788 --> 00:47:20.928 Because once again, I just, I've been in the software world for a long time 00:47:21.348 --> 00:47:26.328 and either, you know, I work at Gravity Forms, that's my, that's my day job. 00:47:26.778 --> 00:47:29.658 There are things that just have to get done, and then there 00:47:29.658 --> 00:47:31.138 are nice to have features. 00:47:31.398 --> 00:47:36.268 And then when the things that have to get done are either complex, or we're 00:47:36.268 --> 00:47:40.558 trying to support WordPress, or, certain WordPress features, and it has to be, 00:47:40.878 --> 00:47:44.828 backwards compatibility, and you're wrestling with that, like, man, sometimes 00:47:44.828 --> 00:47:46.718 the software thing takes a while. 00:47:46.738 --> 00:47:48.202 And I said this in your livestream last week. 00:47:48.463 --> 00:47:53.573 Week mark like imagine when we're talking about version control like imagine 00:47:53.583 --> 00:47:58.673 trying to Do WordPress with 2, 000 ish people and then imagine trying to 00:47:58.673 --> 00:48:03.493 develop a website with six people And just like how drastic of a difference 00:48:03.493 --> 00:48:07.473 it is with 2, 000 But also like how it can be the same kind of technical 00:48:07.473 --> 00:48:11.383 challenge with just six people looks like we lost Mark's video mark is back 00:48:12.023 --> 00:48:12.903 Mark: Yeah, just fixing it. 00:48:12.903 --> 00:48:13.373 Sorry about that. 00:48:13.373 --> 00:48:14.523 But yeah, that's Yeah, I don't know. 00:48:14.523 --> 00:48:17.383 It's a very interesting thing, but this is this is the type of stuff here where 00:48:17.383 --> 00:48:23.323 like The way the way I work and I think about these types of issues is like I'm, 00:48:23.323 --> 00:48:27.873 not even at the point where I can like Render a full opinion on if this is right 00:48:27.903 --> 00:48:32.403 if this is wrong because what we just discovered there as an example It's I 00:48:32.413 --> 00:48:35.833 guarantee you most people don't even know that Okay I guarantee you most people 00:48:35.833 --> 00:48:38.783 don't even know that that's how it works where like you could put up a proposal for 00:48:38.783 --> 00:48:43.933 an instance and then we're still not even sure if You Like how that gets vetted if 00:48:43.933 --> 00:48:46.953 there is a process sounds like there kind of isn't one you can render your you can 00:48:46.953 --> 00:48:50.703 render your Opinion on it, but then it it we don't know how that ends up circling 00:48:50.703 --> 00:48:56.093 through compare and contrast that with maybe something like at another Type of 00:48:56.093 --> 00:48:59.053 company another corporation where like you could just put in feature requests 00:48:59.053 --> 00:49:02.883 and maybe it gets cared about maybe it doesn't but ultimately though the thing 00:49:02.953 --> 00:49:07.148 there is like If I went to Apple, and somehow Apple is a bad example, but if 00:49:07.148 --> 00:49:10.778 I went to a company like that, put in a feature request, and 10, 000 people 00:49:10.818 --> 00:49:13.698 upvoted it, I think they're going to be like, well, a reasonable percentage 00:49:13.698 --> 00:49:17.268 of our user base thinks this is a good idea, let's look at it a little bit, 00:49:17.308 --> 00:49:20.548 and then they might implement it just because most of the user base agrees, 00:49:20.568 --> 00:49:22.678 and they want to make more money, they want to make their clients more happy. 00:49:23.068 --> 00:49:25.848 So, that's the way that I would kind of think about it. 00:49:25.958 --> 00:49:27.438 But again, here's my thing. 00:49:27.818 --> 00:49:30.738 I'm not even rendering an opinion on whether I think this is right or wrong. 00:49:30.748 --> 00:49:34.138 I, we just need to understand, hopefully the majority of people need to understand 00:49:34.148 --> 00:49:38.368 how it's working before we even say if it's, okay, this is good, bad, 00:49:38.828 --> 00:49:42.728 or like, is there, is there a way to make things, kind of more efficient? 00:49:42.738 --> 00:49:46.298 Like, do we have a way to optimize things or opinions on how to optimize things? 00:49:46.298 --> 00:49:47.188 Can't even really do that. 00:49:47.188 --> 00:49:50.428 Cause it seems like there's a lot of minutiae here that needs to be, 00:49:50.918 --> 00:49:52.468 still understood by the masses. 00:49:55.218 --> 00:49:55.758 Matt: One of the. 00:49:56.853 --> 00:49:57.543 Comments. 00:49:57.593 --> 00:50:01.233 I saw from tonic and, and, and we've all, we all say it. 00:50:01.323 --> 00:50:04.603 I think there's different levels of, just trying to pull up something else. 00:50:08.243 --> 00:50:09.893 Mark: Yeah, guys, Apple was a bad example. 00:50:09.893 --> 00:50:10.673 Let's pick somebody else. 00:50:10.673 --> 00:50:11.013 Sorry. 00:50:12.393 --> 00:50:12.513 And 00:50:16.093 --> 00:50:17.453 Matt: one second, let me just pull this up. 00:50:17.453 --> 00:50:17.753 So 00:50:20.083 --> 00:50:21.433 like it's been so long. 00:50:22.723 --> 00:50:26.413 I really have an issue with how long, like, being super critical 00:50:26.453 --> 00:50:28.313 on how long it, it takes. 00:50:28.883 --> 00:50:32.383 because we all know, like, for instance, in that live stream today, somebody 00:50:32.383 --> 00:50:37.223 mentioned like, Oh, as soon as I have an idea for Crocco blocks, I send 00:50:37.223 --> 00:50:38.483 them a message and they build it. 00:50:39.303 --> 00:50:40.413 Well, okay, great. 00:50:40.813 --> 00:50:45.993 But that's like Crocco blocks building it for their, however many customers 00:50:45.993 --> 00:50:48.203 they have 10, 000, a hundred thousand. 00:50:48.203 --> 00:50:51.223 I don't know what the number is, but it's certainly not millions. 00:50:51.253 --> 00:50:56.008 And it's certainly not a complex product as, or a piece 00:50:56.008 --> 00:50:57.608 of software as WordPress is. 00:50:57.618 --> 00:51:00.768 So it's, it's one thing to be like, Oh yeah, I need that thing, throw it in. 00:51:01.038 --> 00:51:05.468 Just like with the expand three dots on the entire admin panel, 00:51:06.698 --> 00:51:08.248 how would you get that done? 00:51:08.558 --> 00:51:09.398 How would you do that? 00:51:09.628 --> 00:51:12.038 And let's say you can propose it to Gutenberg. 00:51:12.038 --> 00:51:12.308 All right. 00:51:13.088 --> 00:51:14.108 What, what is enough? 00:51:14.108 --> 00:51:17.588 So if we use your example before Mark about like, Oh, we tell 00:51:17.588 --> 00:51:19.408 people to go and create an issue. 00:51:19.408 --> 00:51:22.088 And then if it doesn't get done for five years, like there was an issue 00:51:22.548 --> 00:51:26.368 recently, somebody brought up again has been in there for like 13 years. 00:51:26.818 --> 00:51:27.128 Right. 00:51:27.448 --> 00:51:29.908 but if somebody puts an issue in and it doesn't get touched, like, 00:51:29.958 --> 00:51:34.198 well, how much effort did you put in to creating that issue? 00:51:34.628 --> 00:51:34.838 Right. 00:51:34.848 --> 00:51:36.968 Did you clearly articulate it? 00:51:37.138 --> 00:51:39.838 Is it a big enough issue for somebody to pick up on it? 00:51:40.238 --> 00:51:40.478 is it. 00:51:40.988 --> 00:51:42.348 easily solvable, right? 00:51:42.348 --> 00:51:45.638 So when I put my issue in for putting in a command into the command palette, 00:51:46.118 --> 00:51:50.518 I was lucky enough to have Brian Cordes be like, I think I can do that and write 00:51:50.528 --> 00:51:52.188 that code, and I will go and do it. 00:51:52.568 --> 00:51:57.348 So immediately, it was like a one two combo of like, here's my idea, 00:51:57.398 --> 00:51:58.648 here's why I think I need it. 00:51:58.648 --> 00:52:00.278 So I articulated it halfway decent. 00:52:00.288 --> 00:52:02.428 It's a very simple thing, so it's not that hard. 00:52:02.738 --> 00:52:03.798 And then Brian wrote it. 00:52:04.313 --> 00:52:07.413 And then got feedback from other developers who, who contribute 00:52:07.433 --> 00:52:10.193 to, to Gutenberg and moved it up the, moved it up the chain. 00:52:10.423 --> 00:52:12.823 So it's one thing to be like, go and create an issue and just 00:52:12.823 --> 00:52:14.443 be like, this thing needs help. 00:52:15.143 --> 00:52:16.133 And then you just leave. 00:52:16.473 --> 00:52:20.523 But it's another thing to come in and say, okay, we need those three dots expanded. 00:52:20.733 --> 00:52:24.213 I think the best place for that is in the site editor preferences. 00:52:24.243 --> 00:52:25.913 Because this is what I was thinking when I was listening to it. 00:52:26.383 --> 00:52:28.943 And it would be a toggle inside the site preferences. 00:52:29.173 --> 00:52:33.563 preferences window, and I would even make a little screenshot 00:52:33.583 --> 00:52:34.873 of like, here's where it can go. 00:52:35.053 --> 00:52:37.603 Here's a little toggle UI, and you could turn this on and off. 00:52:37.873 --> 00:52:41.263 But, but that just starts the discussion, right? 00:52:41.273 --> 00:52:44.323 For a thing like that, because it's one thing to just say it. 00:52:44.463 --> 00:52:45.943 It's another thing to implement it. 00:52:45.943 --> 00:52:48.553 And that's the difference between like, I don't know, a user base 00:52:48.553 --> 00:52:50.473 of Crocoblox versus WordPress. 00:52:50.473 --> 00:52:51.283 Crocoblox may like, yeah, throw it in. 00:52:51.773 --> 00:52:52.573 Easy, right? 00:52:52.573 --> 00:52:54.533 We're only supporting 10, 000, you know, I don't mean this in a bad way, but 00:52:54.533 --> 00:52:57.073 we're only supporting 10, 000 paying customers or whatever the number is. 00:52:57.788 --> 00:53:00.898 Versus millions of people have to use this and then it has to be supported. 00:53:01.578 --> 00:53:01.818 Right? 00:53:01.818 --> 00:53:02.828 So there's a big difference. 00:53:02.828 --> 00:53:07.038 I, I, I, I, I hope people realize like, you can show up and create 00:53:07.038 --> 00:53:10.678 that issue, but then what's a good issue versus a bad issue. 00:53:10.718 --> 00:53:11.378 Does that make sense? 00:53:12.528 --> 00:53:13.198 Mark: I think it does. 00:53:13.198 --> 00:53:16.308 How do you feel about, how do you feel about filming a video on the three 00:53:16.308 --> 00:53:20.228 dots, posting that on YouTube, then posting that video on GitHub as well? 00:53:20.238 --> 00:53:20.508 Sure. 00:53:20.638 --> 00:53:21.338 Yeah, a hundred percent. 00:53:22.078 --> 00:53:26.108 And then, and then seeing how that goes, and then posting a follow up 00:53:26.108 --> 00:53:30.208 video on what the, what the outcome was. 00:53:30.528 --> 00:53:35.558 Matt: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, the more, the more you can give to a, a, 00:53:35.568 --> 00:53:39.668 a developer or a product person to see that, I mean, the better, right? 00:53:39.938 --> 00:53:43.458 I, I think when you look at it from, Political's not the right word, but 00:53:43.568 --> 00:53:45.868 when you look at, like, trying to convince somebody, it's certainly not 00:53:45.868 --> 00:53:49.528 gonna help if you just yell at them and say, this feature is terrible, we need, 00:53:49.728 --> 00:53:50.938 we need it to be something different. 00:53:51.368 --> 00:53:56.268 Please explain, elaborate, and if you can, demonstrate it with a, with 00:53:56.268 --> 00:53:57.968 a video and a, and an illustration. 00:53:58.548 --> 00:53:59.468 where was I going? 00:53:59.468 --> 00:54:04.168 I was going with, do do do do, we're looking at Gutenberg, oh, 00:54:04.168 --> 00:54:05.388 WordPress core contributors, right? 00:54:05.388 --> 00:54:07.353 So there's core contributors to WordPress, right? 00:54:08.413 --> 00:54:09.653 So this is 00:54:11.663 --> 00:54:16.023 across the, the, the lifespan of WordPress. 00:54:16.093 --> 00:54:21.803 And these are folks who actually had core contributor access to 00:54:21.803 --> 00:54:24.803 WordPress, like those that can actually push the code to WordPress core. 00:54:25.163 --> 00:54:28.143 And you can come in and you can see all of them, throughout 00:54:28.143 --> 00:54:31.163 the, history of WordPress. 00:54:31.213 --> 00:54:32.523 let me go back so I can see that number. 00:54:32.783 --> 00:54:36.403 The number is 72 total contributors. 00:54:36.863 --> 00:54:38.123 Core contributors, right? 00:54:38.153 --> 00:54:42.183 Folks who can actually push code to WordPress Core, which 00:54:42.363 --> 00:54:43.793 impacts the entire world. 00:54:43.803 --> 00:54:48.263 That's why that number isn't as big as something like, Gutenberg, 00:54:48.723 --> 00:54:54.793 which has, 1, 300 ish people over time, 1, 100 contributors over time, 00:54:55.223 --> 00:55:00.413 because, This is a project on Git, on Gutenberg, on GitHub that anybody can 00:55:00.413 --> 00:55:03.043 come and, and contribute to, right? 00:55:03.323 --> 00:55:06.793 So Is that, wait, so there's 72 active core contributors? 00:55:06.803 --> 00:55:09.743 No, you'd have to go, no, that's overall time. 00:55:10.593 --> 00:55:11.093 Mark: Really? 00:55:11.413 --> 00:55:11.713 Yeah. 00:55:12.713 --> 00:55:14.083 People who are Can you leave? 00:55:15.313 --> 00:55:15.783 What do you mean? 00:55:16.203 --> 00:55:17.283 Like, can you leave? 00:55:17.353 --> 00:55:19.993 Has there always been 72 total, like No, 00:55:19.993 --> 00:55:24.043 Matt: no, no, these are, so it's, it's people that can actually deploy the code. 00:55:24.623 --> 00:55:24.893 Right? 00:55:24.903 --> 00:55:27.823 These are core contributors that can actually deploy the code. 00:55:27.843 --> 00:55:31.073 And yes, Daniel, isn't that also only contributors with GitHub accounts? 00:55:31.073 --> 00:55:31.493 Correct. 00:55:31.623 --> 00:55:31.883 Yeah. 00:55:33.393 --> 00:55:38.333 But core contributors, core contributors, people contribute code to WordPress. 00:55:38.473 --> 00:55:41.513 That doesn't necessarily make them a core contributor, which can 00:55:41.693 --> 00:55:44.593 actually affect WordPress core. 00:55:44.603 --> 00:55:46.303 Mark: Is there like, this is a stupid question. 00:55:46.303 --> 00:55:50.323 Is there like one person or a, like the small team, the leadership, 00:55:50.333 --> 00:55:51.743 like that vets this code? 00:55:52.268 --> 00:55:54.048 Like, I mean, you can't just, like, push it, right? 00:55:54.048 --> 00:55:56.978 I mean, obviously, you can't just, like, How do we trust those people enough? 00:55:57.298 --> 00:56:02.358 Matt: At the end of the day, the buck stops at the, as far as I understand it, 00:56:02.618 --> 00:56:04.428 the buck stops at the core contributors. 00:56:04.758 --> 00:56:05.108 Right? 00:56:05.848 --> 00:56:07.538 So, testing, all that stuff happens. 00:56:07.538 --> 00:56:12.628 That's why I always say, one of the best things to do is to see, You know, 00:56:12.628 --> 00:56:15.668 when they're, when they're releasing a, a new version of, of WordPress, to 00:56:15.668 --> 00:56:20.018 actually watch that happen in Slack, because you get to see sort of like, I, 00:56:20.278 --> 00:56:24.758 I, I sort of, I sort of attribute it to like watching a spaceship launch, right? 00:56:24.828 --> 00:56:27.608 All the, the checks and, you know, we're checking this and we're 00:56:27.608 --> 00:56:30.318 doing that and, okay, we're gonna, everybody, everybody's checking and 00:56:30.318 --> 00:56:33.428 everybody's making sure there's no last, errors when they're committing 00:56:33.428 --> 00:56:35.688 the, the code, you know, to WordPress. 00:56:36.088 --> 00:56:37.718 they get to see all that stuff, right? 00:56:37.718 --> 00:56:42.178 Or you get to see all that stuff as like a, as like a, you know, somebody 00:56:42.178 --> 00:56:45.168 in the audience seeing this thing launch and everybody's checking in and 00:56:45.168 --> 00:56:47.098 you really get to see, wow, there's a, there's a lot of people that, 00:56:47.438 --> 00:56:49.568 that, that, that partake in this. 00:56:51.563 --> 00:56:55.253 but you know, you can even see it like, again, back to the value of, of, 00:56:55.523 --> 00:56:56.783 of open source and version control. 00:56:56.783 --> 00:56:58.113 I know I'm bouncing around here a lot. 00:56:58.163 --> 00:57:01.183 but when you go and look at something like, 00:57:03.303 --> 00:57:06.903 this is, this is where, like, I'm not a developer, so this is why it's probably 00:57:06.903 --> 00:57:10.863 painful for developers in the audience, but if you look at something like, 00:57:12.203 --> 00:57:17.008 add padding around selected values, author filter, you know, you can come 00:57:17.008 --> 00:57:23.318 and see from a developer standpoint, performance tests, you can, you can 00:57:23.318 --> 00:57:28.638 see how all of this stuff affects the code, you know, for lack of a better 00:57:28.638 --> 00:57:33.588 word, like, was there an issue when the code was, merged into a particular, 00:57:33.608 --> 00:57:34.648 you know, version of WordPress. 00:57:34.648 --> 00:57:38.798 So like all of that stuff is being tracked in, in GitHub. 00:57:38.808 --> 00:57:41.318 So you can kind of see where things are failing and. 00:57:41.823 --> 00:57:43.993 And what, where the code is going, if that makes sense. 00:57:44.343 --> 00:57:46.623 And again, I'm not a, I'm not a developer. 00:57:46.623 --> 00:57:48.623 I just, I just trust the process here. 00:57:48.783 --> 00:57:51.443 And I trust something like, like GitHub and version control, because 00:57:51.443 --> 00:57:52.743 you, that is all documented. 00:57:53.043 --> 00:57:57.003 So you can kind of see if there, if there is a problem, you can go back and go, Oh 00:57:57.003 --> 00:57:59.603 God, this is where this code got merged. 00:57:59.963 --> 00:58:02.223 We need to, we need to roll that back. 00:58:02.413 --> 00:58:04.353 or we need to pull that out kind of thing. 00:58:05.163 --> 00:58:05.413 Yeah. 00:58:07.063 --> 00:58:07.403 Okay. 00:58:09.733 --> 00:58:10.243 Mark: Makes sense. 00:58:12.093 --> 00:58:12.313 Yeah. 00:58:12.313 --> 00:58:13.433 So what is track? 00:58:14.063 --> 00:58:14.893 It's track something different. 00:58:14.973 --> 00:58:16.223 we don't have to, we don't have to get into it. 00:58:16.223 --> 00:58:17.833 I was just, it's high level, high level. 00:58:17.873 --> 00:58:18.393 Just something else. 00:58:18.433 --> 00:58:18.733 Matt: Yeah. 00:58:18.903 --> 00:58:20.043 Track is just legacy. 00:58:20.063 --> 00:58:22.053 It's like legacy version control. 00:58:22.053 --> 00:58:23.783 before like GitHub existed. 00:58:24.153 --> 00:58:24.883 No, we use it. 00:58:24.893 --> 00:58:26.973 We still use it, in, in WordPress. 00:58:26.973 --> 00:58:31.743 So track is, where like all these issues happen in, in, in GitHub. 00:58:32.233 --> 00:58:36.743 and then there's like SVN, wordpress, let me show, let me pull it up. 00:58:47.093 --> 00:58:49.693 Mark: Daniel has some, strong opinions on SVN, apparently. 00:58:52.323 --> 00:58:53.413 Matt: Let me tell you about SVN. 00:58:53.593 --> 00:58:56.913 Yeah, I mean, SVN, Mark, you're probably too young for this, but do you remember 00:58:57.083 --> 00:58:59.053 ever hearing about, like, MS DOS? 00:58:59.773 --> 00:59:00.473 Like, it's Yes. 00:59:01.133 --> 00:59:02.683 It's, it's, it's like that. 00:59:02.993 --> 00:59:03.473 Oh, wow. 00:59:03.473 --> 00:59:03.783 You know. 00:59:06.743 --> 00:59:07.403 Interesting. 00:59:07.508 --> 00:59:07.918 so, 00:59:10.178 --> 00:59:11.928 So if we pull up this, 00:59:15.158 --> 00:59:18.378 Mark: But it was the same concept then, But not, Yeah, 00:59:18.378 --> 00:59:19.888 it's just, it's been there since, 00:59:20.298 --> 00:59:23.068 Matt: yeah, since WordPress, WordPress started, right? 00:59:23.138 --> 00:59:27.798 So, I don't know, if we go into, You know, something like this, it's just a very 00:59:27.848 --> 00:59:31.928 old, You can, you can tell, it's just a very old school, setup, it just runs on. 00:59:32.278 --> 00:59:33.238 on wordpress. 00:59:33.238 --> 00:59:33.518 org. 00:59:33.748 --> 00:59:39.798 So this particular one is, a track ticket, which is classified as a 00:59:39.798 --> 00:59:44.438 bug, says filters on pattern archives page not working, opened 13 hours 00:59:44.438 --> 00:59:46.428 ago, last modified 7 hours ago. 00:59:47.968 --> 00:59:50.358 somebody says, here's the description, when you're on the patterns archive 00:59:50.358 --> 00:59:52.848 page and you want your filters sync or not sync pattern, the back 00:59:52.878 --> 00:59:55.248 office crashed with this JS error. 00:59:55.358 --> 00:59:58.388 So this is obviously the code stuff happening. 00:59:58.758 --> 00:59:59.518 And then this person. 00:59:59.728 --> 01:00:03.008 I'm not even going to pretend to dissect this code, but this person 01:00:03.008 --> 01:00:04.548 replied with, with the issue. 01:00:06.068 --> 01:00:06.218 So 01:00:06.218 --> 01:00:09.128 Mark: it's legacy and it's being used by people that don't use Git? 01:00:10.568 --> 01:00:13.898 Matt: Yeah, but this is where all the core WordPress stuff happens. 01:00:15.188 --> 01:00:16.668 And WordPress themes. 01:00:18.638 --> 01:00:19.058 Mark: And plugins. 01:00:19.058 --> 01:00:21.198 Because it's, because it's not on Git? 01:00:22.053 --> 01:00:25.963 Or just because it's legacy and it hasn't moved or mined or anything like 01:00:25.963 --> 01:00:26.319 Matt: that. 01:00:26.319 --> 01:00:31.423 It hasn't moved, and I believe it hasn't moved because, what Courtney said, I 01:00:31.443 --> 01:00:37.853 think she said, security by obscurity because if there is some kind of huge 01:00:37.853 --> 01:00:43.518 security issue with WordPress, seemingly they don't want that to be, you know, 01:00:44.358 --> 01:00:49.728 On GitHub or accessible for anyone to either contribute or get access to it. 01:00:50.258 --> 01:00:53.798 so it stays with just the core contributors and they mirror it. 01:00:53.828 --> 01:00:56.468 As Courtney also mentioned, it's, it's, it says it right here to 01:00:56.473 --> 01:00:57.518 link a pull request to the ticket. 01:00:57.518 --> 01:01:00.998 So all that code is getting mirrored to GitHub so you can see it. 01:01:01.508 --> 01:01:04.598 But all the other discussions and access to contribute, 01:01:04.598 --> 01:01:08.108 that code happens in in track. 01:01:09.848 --> 01:01:10.148 Mark: Hmm. 01:01:10.973 --> 01:01:12.758 You, you have to be logged in to see that, I guess. 01:01:14.118 --> 01:01:16.478 Matt: No, this stuff is, no, this is, I'm not logged in. 01:01:17.278 --> 01:01:18.558 This is all, you can go to core. 01:01:18.688 --> 01:01:18.968 track. 01:01:18.978 --> 01:01:20.258 wordpress to see it. 01:01:21.448 --> 01:01:21.798 Mullenweg: Okay. 01:01:22.518 --> 01:01:24.528 Matt: And you get an RSS feed for it too, and you can see 01:01:24.528 --> 01:01:25.608 absolutely everything happening. 01:01:25.608 --> 01:01:27.958 So this covers everything under wordpress. 01:01:27.958 --> 01:01:31.408 org, which is a whole other discussion, which is wordpress. 01:01:31.408 --> 01:01:35.568 org itself, wordpress core, wordpress themes, like all the themes that 01:01:35.568 --> 01:01:36.978 are, are hosted at wordpress. 01:01:36.978 --> 01:01:38.868 org, all the plugins that are hosted at wordpress. 01:01:38.868 --> 01:01:40.348 org, like this is where. 01:01:41.223 --> 01:01:44.933 Theme developers are, are still putting their, their themes and having the 01:01:44.933 --> 01:01:48.623 discussions of approval and what has to be changed, what needs to be updated. 01:01:48.623 --> 01:01:52.473 Like this is, that whole community is in here. 01:01:52.913 --> 01:01:56.823 but it all, all the WordPress core stuff also gets mirrored to, to GitHub. 01:01:56.823 --> 01:01:59.473 So you can see the code, you're just not gonna, you're just not 01:01:59.473 --> 01:02:00.703 gonna see all those discussions. 01:02:01.663 --> 01:02:01.883 Mark: Hmm. 01:02:03.623 --> 01:02:03.853 Okay. 01:02:05.123 --> 01:02:06.613 Do you think it's, like, important? 01:02:06.863 --> 01:02:10.123 Do you think it would be, like, beneficial to try to I mean, I 01:02:10.223 --> 01:02:12.343 I I'm I'm a little I'm a little 01:02:14.503 --> 01:02:18.933 I don't know if I'm just too young, you know, not not not jaded 01:02:19.403 --> 01:02:20.963 by life just yet or something. 01:02:20.963 --> 01:02:24.143 But, like, the the sentiment that, like, this is just keep this just keeps 01:02:24.143 --> 01:02:27.383 happening, like, you know, like you like, it's just the way that it is. 01:02:27.393 --> 01:02:29.273 It's always it's it's always been like this. 01:02:29.283 --> 01:02:30.763 It's always going to be like this. 01:02:31.288 --> 01:02:32.118 That type of thing. 01:02:32.128 --> 01:02:33.878 It doesn't ever really resonate with me. 01:02:34.208 --> 01:02:38.248 I find it to be like, quite, like maybe it will end up being true, but I find it 01:02:38.248 --> 01:02:43.668 to be like, quite like, I don't know, just maybe a sad way to think about things. 01:02:43.728 --> 01:02:47.288 Like, do we think like, things could improve? 01:02:47.288 --> 01:02:49.278 Like, it almost seems like it's a sentiment that like, 01:02:49.278 --> 01:02:50.648 you can't improve anything. 01:02:50.808 --> 01:02:52.378 Like, it's just, ah, this is just how it is. 01:02:55.748 --> 01:03:02.768 Matt: I, again, like, I, I, I don't, It depends on what you mean by improving, 01:03:02.768 --> 01:03:08.208 like what that and how much are, are you looking to improve all at once? 01:03:08.718 --> 01:03:11.258 I mean, obviously I'm not the one, you know, with the, with the answers 01:03:11.258 --> 01:03:15.108 or the, on the leadership side, but it's just like, what does it, 01:03:15.118 --> 01:03:16.738 what does improvement look like? 01:03:17.068 --> 01:03:20.648 Does it look like we're getting more features, you know, not to, 01:03:20.968 --> 01:03:22.678 like Bricks versus WordPress Core. 01:03:22.678 --> 01:03:24.558 Like, are, like, do we feel like that's an improvement? 01:03:24.558 --> 01:03:28.378 Like, oh, we're starting to satisfy those requirements that we get in Bricks, and 01:03:28.378 --> 01:03:30.128 now we have that stuff in, in WordPress. 01:03:30.148 --> 01:03:31.998 Is that in, is that improvement? 01:03:32.348 --> 01:03:35.158 Is it improvement in the publishing side of it? 01:03:35.548 --> 01:03:37.958 you know, somebody on that call today brought up, like, oh, the first thing I 01:03:37.968 --> 01:03:39.948 do is I disable all the screen options. 01:03:39.958 --> 01:03:42.658 Like, all the stuff that shows up on, I'm assuming he's talking 01:03:42.658 --> 01:03:45.628 about, like, WordPress dashboard and all the other stuff that pops up. 01:03:45.648 --> 01:03:49.228 Like, okay, is that, is that How bad is that? 01:03:49.258 --> 01:03:51.368 Is like, is that all you want to get better? 01:03:51.368 --> 01:03:53.778 Is like that improve, like that onboarding experience? 01:03:53.778 --> 01:03:55.558 Like, is it the onboarding experience? 01:03:55.558 --> 01:03:56.338 Is it more themes? 01:03:56.338 --> 01:03:58.098 Like, what is it that people want? 01:03:58.098 --> 01:04:01.718 And I don't think that anyone can clearly answer that. 01:04:01.968 --> 01:04:05.903 because there's just a, such a vast amount of, of stuff that 01:04:05.903 --> 01:04:07.298 people want from WordPress. 01:04:08.458 --> 01:04:10.478 You know, I don't know what improvement looks like. 01:04:10.478 --> 01:04:14.208 Is it, is it clear, clear, clearer objectives? 01:04:14.528 --> 01:04:16.958 Is it more transparency with leadership? 01:04:17.288 --> 01:04:18.898 Is it those features we talked about? 01:04:18.898 --> 01:04:19.498 Like, what is it? 01:04:19.558 --> 01:04:21.098 Like, what is it gonna make it better? 01:04:21.348 --> 01:04:24.528 Because I think, my answer is, I'm not unhappy. 01:04:25.468 --> 01:04:25.708 Right? 01:04:25.708 --> 01:04:29.668 Like, I know I'm gonna come off as, as an automatic apologist. 01:04:30.048 --> 01:04:35.068 But I also say, like, Step up other companies who are also making 01:04:35.068 --> 01:04:38.528 millions, if not billions of dollars off of, off of this industry. 01:04:38.808 --> 01:04:40.188 And, and contribute. 01:04:41.373 --> 01:04:45.333 I'm not worried about, I, I, I'm, you know, I'm of the, of the mindset of like, 01:04:45.343 --> 01:04:48.923 I don't feel like it's that bad because, because we still have the products 01:04:49.243 --> 01:04:50.923 to be able to, to do things better. 01:04:50.923 --> 01:04:56.653 If you don't like Gutenberg, you know, that's fine, but you 01:04:56.653 --> 01:04:57.773 can, you have other options. 01:04:57.873 --> 01:05:00.433 Elementor, Bricks, go ahead, pick something else. 01:05:02.013 --> 01:05:05.443 Mark: I mean, I think, the transparency aspect of it, which I'm 01:05:05.443 --> 01:05:09.118 not even blaming, I wouldn't even pass blame for the transparency. 01:05:09.118 --> 01:05:11.158 It's very hard to be transparent about so many different, 01:05:11.198 --> 01:05:12.858 like, the whole process of it. 01:05:13.358 --> 01:05:17.928 But, my question would be, like, is that a core tenant of 01:05:17.938 --> 01:05:19.418 the whole project as a whole? 01:05:19.418 --> 01:05:21.678 And obviously, like, Matt Mullenweg's kind of the epicenter 01:05:21.678 --> 01:05:22.878 of progress, like Daniel said. 01:05:24.373 --> 01:05:25.363 Question, because I'm new. 01:05:25.423 --> 01:05:26.153 Because I'm new here. 01:05:26.423 --> 01:05:28.683 I don't know how long I can say that for, but question because I'm new here. 01:05:28.793 --> 01:05:30.913 Matt: Yeah, you're gonna run out of that pretty 01:05:30.913 --> 01:05:31.251 Mark: soon. 01:05:31.251 --> 01:05:34.969 Did he, did he ever describe himself as a benevolent dictator, 01:05:34.969 --> 01:05:39.265 or was that something that was just Because I hear that all the time. 01:05:39.275 --> 01:05:43.105 Like, did he say it was like that, or did somebody just like 01:05:43.105 --> 01:05:44.440 say that that was how it was? 01:05:45.040 --> 01:05:48.160 Matt: I, I think that was, and if anybody's in the audience that 01:05:48.160 --> 01:05:50.870 remembers this, I think that was tongue in cheek from, because he's 01:05:50.870 --> 01:05:52.550 really good friends with, Tim Ferriss. 01:05:53.270 --> 01:05:58.530 And I, I want to say it was on Tim Ferriss podcast where he, Tim, 01:05:58.550 --> 01:06:00.350 labeled him the benevolent dictator. 01:06:00.770 --> 01:06:05.080 It might've been passed around before, or maybe he said it, but the first 01:06:05.080 --> 01:06:10.630 time I had heard it really was on, was, on the Tim Ferriss podcast. 01:06:10.910 --> 01:06:11.160 Yeah. 01:06:12.105 --> 01:06:13.785 Courtney says it's used beyond WordPress. 01:06:15.575 --> 01:06:17.385 My mouse keeps dying for some reason. 01:06:18.505 --> 01:06:18.935 Interesting. 01:06:20.165 --> 01:06:20.605 Okay. 01:06:21.815 --> 01:06:22.085 Mark: All right. 01:06:22.085 --> 01:06:23.905 So it's not like a foreign concept or whatever. 01:06:23.905 --> 01:06:26.595 And like, he would probably, if you asked him, like, are you a benevolent dictator? 01:06:26.595 --> 01:06:27.245 He would say yes. 01:06:30.675 --> 01:06:31.795 Matt: I would assume he would say yes. 01:06:31.985 --> 01:06:33.745 He'd probably like look at you sideways, but 01:06:35.035 --> 01:06:37.765 Mark: Well, I'm just saying, I'm just saying because I feel like it, it, I'm 01:06:37.765 --> 01:06:41.295 not, again, I'm not the point where I'm like casting judgment or opinion 01:06:41.295 --> 01:06:44.265 necessarily, but I just feel like that, even something as silly as that, 01:06:44.275 --> 01:06:47.875 it's like everybody understanding that it's not a democracy and rather it's, 01:06:47.915 --> 01:06:50.105 it's rather him, moving it forward. 01:06:50.455 --> 01:06:53.575 If that is the case and everybody knew that, then at that point you could say, 01:06:53.575 --> 01:06:55.015 okay, well I do or don't agree with that. 01:06:55.015 --> 01:06:58.065 But until we understand that that is how it is, because still I think people 01:06:58.065 --> 01:07:02.095 are confused apparently that it's not a democracy and it's not like, oh, I want 01:07:02.095 --> 01:07:05.585 something, I can just say it and it just happens, which is important to know. 01:07:05.625 --> 01:07:06.790 Like, we have to understand that. 01:07:07.530 --> 01:07:10.580 The parameters of what we're dealing with and like what the situation is 01:07:10.580 --> 01:07:14.070 before we can actually have an honest conversation Or and make any progress 01:07:14.070 --> 01:07:17.600 whatsoever regardless of what your definition of progress is so, Yeah, and 01:07:17.600 --> 01:07:20.310 I would say the only thing I would say though is like if that's the case you 01:07:20.310 --> 01:07:28.450 line those down those up it's like I mean I I as an aside Maybe off topic. 01:07:28.510 --> 01:07:32.890 I find it like crazy that like 43 percent of the internet seems to 01:07:32.900 --> 01:07:39.515 be Completely completely like at the, the mercy of one individual. 01:07:39.535 --> 01:07:42.235 Like that's kind of like that, that seems a little concerning to me. 01:07:42.255 --> 01:07:44.055 Not, not like again, nothing against Matt Mullen. 01:07:44.065 --> 01:07:46.905 We never spoke to the guy seen his interview seems great, but I'm just saying 01:07:46.905 --> 01:07:51.175 like all of that one person epicenter of that, like, and we've talked about this 01:07:51.175 --> 01:07:54.175 before, hopefully there's like kind of more of like, we're understanding now 01:07:54.175 --> 01:07:58.855 that like time is a reality and like we have built, we're building kind of like, 01:07:58.855 --> 01:08:02.175 you know, some, you know, contingency to that, like with, you know, troops 01:08:02.175 --> 01:08:04.895 and different things like that, and like kind of the, you know, the seconds in 01:08:04.895 --> 01:08:07.925 command and stuff like that, which I don't know how much or how little that 01:08:07.925 --> 01:08:09.835 has happened in the past and everything. 01:08:10.135 --> 01:08:13.405 Cause obviously when you're trying to run something big, you can't just do it alone. 01:08:13.445 --> 01:08:16.725 So I dunno, that's just, we don't have any answers there. 01:08:16.725 --> 01:08:20.145 I don't feel like from what I've heard, it's just, we'll see what happens, but 01:08:20.145 --> 01:08:24.525 that's still something that's kind of like Just, I would just be curious about, like, 01:08:24.525 --> 01:08:26.315 how, how do we, how do we go about that? 01:08:26.345 --> 01:08:28.525 You know, not the next generation of users, the next 01:08:28.525 --> 01:08:31.345 generation of operators, or, 01:08:31.395 --> 01:08:31.735 Matt: you 01:08:31.855 --> 01:08:33.555 Mark: know, leadership, even. 01:08:33.585 --> 01:08:33.885 Yeah. 01:08:34.875 --> 01:08:37.425 Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's, It's something that people 01:08:37.425 --> 01:08:43.405 bring up a lot, and, and, You know, I, I, I think it almost sounds worse, too. 01:08:43.415 --> 01:08:46.765 It sounds a lot more urgent when you frame it that way. 01:08:46.765 --> 01:08:51.085 Like, oh, it's a whole, you know, 43%, this big number is reliant on him. 01:08:51.890 --> 01:08:57.220 It is, and it isn't because it's like ideas, like he does set the 01:08:57.220 --> 01:09:03.230 motion forward and he, and he does allow for all of these automaticians 01:09:03.230 --> 01:09:05.010 to contribute to, to WordPress. 01:09:05.910 --> 01:09:09.310 But I think just like if you're a, I don't know, if you have an idea for a movie, 01:09:09.330 --> 01:09:13.800 and a movie starts getting made, like as a writer, or as like the creator, like, 01:09:13.900 --> 01:09:17.660 okay, it's one thing to be like, here's the thing I want done, but then it's, 01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:21.840 again, it's this massive apparatus, and it changes and evolves over time, and 01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:26.255 it's out of your control, unless you're just an absolute, like, maniac narcissist 01:09:26.895 --> 01:09:30.535 and you're just like in everybody's face, which, you know, Hey, it kind of sounds 01:09:30.535 --> 01:09:33.615 like he's in, he's still talking to all these people about all these products. 01:09:33.615 --> 01:09:36.935 Like he does need to maybe take a step back and hyper focus 01:09:36.935 --> 01:09:38.305 on, on the core of WordPress. 01:09:38.735 --> 01:09:42.055 but I think like his direction, there's one thing that like he sets 01:09:42.055 --> 01:09:46.425 the tone and the direction, but how it evolves, he's not like it's him 01:09:46.435 --> 01:09:49.895 writing the lines of code and the features are being built or whatever. 01:09:49.905 --> 01:09:52.185 Maybe like, even like Steve jobs to a degree, I guess. 01:09:53.375 --> 01:09:54.685 you know, he has the ideas. 01:09:54.725 --> 01:09:58.225 This is the vision, but eventually, like, reality sets in and it has to 01:09:58.225 --> 01:10:01.515 be built a certain way and it, and it, and it evolves just because there's so 01:10:01.515 --> 01:10:05.655 many people, you know, contributing to this thing that maybe his idea doesn't 01:10:05.665 --> 01:10:08.225 take shape exactly like he's wanted. 01:10:08.355 --> 01:10:09.555 and he's, you know, he's talked about it. 01:10:09.815 --> 01:10:12.425 Look at the, Data Liberation Initiative. 01:10:12.435 --> 01:10:13.965 That's just his idea. 01:10:14.780 --> 01:10:19.740 And until maybe he makes, automaticians actually, you know, write these export 01:10:19.760 --> 01:10:24.080 import migration tools, he's just like, here's this idea for data liberation. 01:10:24.080 --> 01:10:25.090 Here's what we should do. 01:10:26.560 --> 01:10:27.770 And he just throws it out there. 01:10:27.880 --> 01:10:32.360 And now it's up to the community and anyone else who wants to contribute 01:10:32.360 --> 01:10:34.370 to that, to actually make it reality. 01:10:34.620 --> 01:10:35.380 So what did he do? 01:10:35.380 --> 01:10:39.690 He sort of like, put the carrot on the end of the stick a little bit closer. 01:10:39.980 --> 01:10:42.340 And he was just like, Oh, if you want to make this plugin. 01:10:42.635 --> 01:10:44.805 I'll make sure, make a plugin to do something like this. 01:10:44.815 --> 01:10:48.845 I'll make sure it gets approved in 24 to 48 hours or whatever, which 01:10:48.845 --> 01:10:52.235 is, you know, contrary to like, if you just have a plugin that you 01:10:52.235 --> 01:10:53.975 want to contribute to wordpress. 01:10:53.975 --> 01:10:56.585 org, it might take a month, two months, three months. 01:10:56.615 --> 01:10:58.785 I don't even know what the wait time is anymore for plugins. 01:10:59.065 --> 01:11:02.765 So his thing was like, I can help you get this done faster if 01:11:02.765 --> 01:11:06.855 you're contributing to this data liberation project as an example. 01:11:09.145 --> 01:11:13.265 Mark: Yeah, I, I, I feel like, I mean, that totally makes sense, the 01:11:13.335 --> 01:11:16.045 ex, example with, Data Liberation. 01:11:16.055 --> 01:11:18.845 I would just be kind of literally interested, maybe just like, literally 01:11:18.865 --> 01:11:23.755 ask him the question of like, how do you, to me, it's a little concerning, 01:11:23.915 --> 01:11:27.555 not concerning, but it's like, it's interesting that he, as that, with that 01:11:27.555 --> 01:11:29.285 example, came up with Data Liberation. 01:11:29.315 --> 01:11:30.395 Seems like a great idea. 01:11:30.555 --> 01:11:33.425 Then nobody did anything with it, and then he had to dangle the carrot, 01:11:33.475 --> 01:11:38.515 and it's like, Does he, as, using that one as the, the one in question. 01:11:39.170 --> 01:11:43.610 Does, is he gonna have like a, a direction for that, that people 01:11:43.610 --> 01:11:45.370 are gonna have to follow as well? 01:11:45.820 --> 01:11:47.720 and he's just getting it started and then he's gonna be like, okay, 01:11:47.730 --> 01:11:50.160 actually this is kind of where I want you to go, something like that, or 01:11:50.160 --> 01:11:51.660 is he much more hands off than that? 01:11:51.660 --> 01:11:54.820 Because I've literally heard like, again, without actually talking 01:11:54.820 --> 01:11:58.190 to him and hearing that specific stuff, I've heard kind of both ways. 01:11:58.190 --> 01:12:01.890 I've heard he's very on, you know, like you said, on all the different companies, 01:12:01.890 --> 01:12:04.630 kind of like in there, like CEOs of different companies and stuff like that. 01:12:04.630 --> 01:12:06.040 Very like hands on with a lot of that stuff. 01:12:06.320 --> 01:12:08.840 And, but also at the same time, like, how could you possibly be 01:12:08.840 --> 01:12:09.910 hands on with all this stuff? 01:12:09.910 --> 01:12:11.130 I mean, it's just too vast. 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:12.390 So I don't know. 01:12:12.390 --> 01:12:17.890 I would love, I would, I'm just curious genuinely about that as an example, but 01:12:18.830 --> 01:12:21.240 Matt: I'm trying to just find something really quick. 01:12:25.035 --> 01:12:25.395 What else? 01:12:25.395 --> 01:12:28.105 You see any, any chats coming in while I look for this, 01:12:28.195 --> 01:12:29.595 anything that anyone's saying? 01:12:30.365 --> 01:12:31.725 Mark: Yeah, I got one from Elliot Richmond. 01:12:31.735 --> 01:12:33.365 The plan is there is no plan. 01:12:33.945 --> 01:12:34.945 That's a fun one. 01:12:36.565 --> 01:12:36.905 Matt: Damn it. 01:12:39.825 --> 01:12:40.505 Mark: That's a fun one. 01:12:41.905 --> 01:12:44.795 and then Peter says, there's always forking classic press exists. 01:12:44.795 --> 01:12:47.975 I'm not personally, interested in it, but, but there is that, I mean, 01:12:47.975 --> 01:12:49.005 again, that's the beautiful part. 01:12:49.005 --> 01:12:50.285 I mean, again, I don't know. 01:12:50.285 --> 01:12:53.185 I, maybe I'm just like kind of too meta for a lot of these conversations. 01:12:53.185 --> 01:12:56.465 I just literally think like what happens if Matt Mullenweg literally just 01:12:56.655 --> 01:12:59.105 decided tomorrow that he wasn't going to do, wasn't going to do anything. 01:12:59.105 --> 01:13:00.995 I'm getting an echo right 01:13:00.995 --> 01:13:01.334 Matt: now. 01:13:01.334 --> 01:13:03.030 Yeah, I was hearing myself. 01:13:03.030 --> 01:13:03.708 All right. 01:13:03.708 --> 01:13:08.455 Tell me if you hear this, tell me if you hear this without you. 01:13:08.995 --> 01:13:11.605 Mullenweg: I have a little bit of a, sad trombone one though. 01:13:11.785 --> 01:13:12.345 Matt: Do you hear that? 01:13:12.935 --> 01:13:13.285 All right. 01:13:13.335 --> 01:13:13.495 Yeah. 01:13:13.505 --> 01:13:15.185 So I just need to turn that on for a second. 01:13:15.185 --> 01:13:15.615 Do you hear me? 01:13:15.655 --> 01:13:16.585 Do you hear me twice? 01:13:17.645 --> 01:13:17.885 Hmm. 01:13:18.365 --> 01:13:18.655 Okay. 01:13:19.115 --> 01:13:20.255 So you just be quiet for a second. 01:13:21.465 --> 01:13:24.225 And I'm going to play this, I'm going to play this clip, from the Data Liberation. 01:13:24.225 --> 01:13:29.075 This is from, Matt Mullenweg's summer update at WordCamp Europe 01:13:29.075 --> 01:13:32.205 talking specifically about, the Data Liberation Project. 01:13:34.185 --> 01:13:35.835 Mullenweg: Which is the Data Liberation Project. 01:13:36.115 --> 01:13:39.575 So, as I spoke about at State of the Word, I'll reintroduce data liberation. 01:13:39.805 --> 01:13:43.165 This is the idea that one of the best things we could do as an open 01:13:43.165 --> 01:13:47.195 source community is unlock all the proprietary platforms, all the 01:13:47.195 --> 01:13:51.355 places where people have their data locked in to systems which might not 01:13:51.355 --> 01:13:55.945 allow export or easy composability or transferability of their data. 01:13:56.405 --> 01:13:58.245 so we, we term this data liberation. 01:13:58.845 --> 01:14:01.265 And, if you scan that QR code or go to wordpress. 01:14:01.265 --> 01:14:07.005 org slash data dash liberation, you will see we have the start of what, 01:14:07.345 --> 01:14:11.025 hopefully will be something that creates a ton more freedom on the web and a 01:14:11.025 --> 01:14:14.655 ton more portability between platforms, including in and out of WordPress. 01:14:14.655 --> 01:14:16.685 WordPress could be a, maybe a middle ground between something else. 01:14:17.115 --> 01:14:20.755 however, this has had very, very little progress. 01:14:21.185 --> 01:14:24.535 So if you go to that page, click on some of the links, you'll see mostly empty 01:14:24.535 --> 01:14:29.090 GitHub So I just wanted to point this out, as an amazing place if you're interested 01:14:29.090 --> 01:14:32.250 in contributing to WordPress, to adopt something and have total ownership of it. 01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:37.440 So if you wanted to, sort of, each of these projects is fairly self contained. 01:14:37.730 --> 01:14:40.800 So if, you wanted a chance to actually lead something within the 01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:44.650 WordPress project, you could be in charge of the, say, Wix to WordPress 01:14:44.670 --> 01:14:46.030 converter or something like that. 01:14:46.470 --> 01:14:52.125 this, I think, is also going to be really important for us as, The more 01:14:52.125 --> 01:14:55.115 and more marketing dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars are spent in 01:14:55.175 --> 01:14:57.395 marketing for proprietary platforms. 01:14:57.665 --> 01:15:01.795 Proprietary platforms have gotten tons of investment in the past few years. 01:15:01.825 --> 01:15:04.075 Things like Shopify, Squarespace, etc. 01:15:04.535 --> 01:15:09.445 And they are coming as sort of the macroeconomic conditions have changed. 01:15:09.675 --> 01:15:12.385 They've started to really target WordPress agencies, WordPress 01:15:12.395 --> 01:15:14.405 users, WordPress sites quite a bit. 01:15:14.785 --> 01:15:18.105 And so they're coming and trying to snipe away our community. 01:15:18.465 --> 01:15:18.825 so. 01:15:19.030 --> 01:15:21.660 So, we have to keep an eye out for that. 01:15:22.070 --> 01:15:26.050 And the problem as well is when people go that way, it's almost 01:15:26.050 --> 01:15:27.480 impossible to go back the other way. 01:15:27.870 --> 01:15:29.680 It's like, I don't know if you had this advertisement here, 01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:31.940 but the Roach Motel, the Roaches check in, they don't check out. 01:15:33.330 --> 01:15:35.030 That's a lot of these proprietary CMSs. 01:15:35.210 --> 01:15:37.340 They'll let you check in your data, but you can never check it out. 01:15:37.970 --> 01:15:41.600 So as part of our mission to democratize the web and increase freedom, I think it's 01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:44.600 really, really important that we create portability, even when the platforms 01:15:44.600 --> 01:15:49.580 themselves don't support The other big part of this that I think is also super 01:15:49.580 --> 01:15:52.890 relevant for this audience is we need to make wordpress to wordpress easier. 01:15:54.240 --> 01:15:58.260 Who's ever tried to transfer a wordpress site to something else? 01:15:59.350 --> 01:16:00.510 Matt: Alright, so I'm just going to stop it there. 01:16:00.510 --> 01:16:01.040 You should be good. 01:16:01.040 --> 01:16:02.160 I shut off loopback. 01:16:02.160 --> 01:16:06.690 you know, where this project, he came up with this idea. 01:16:07.115 --> 01:16:07.785 Data liberation. 01:16:07.825 --> 01:16:08.975 And maybe other people talked about it. 01:16:08.975 --> 01:16:12.655 I mean, we've all always talked about making it easier to move from 01:16:12.655 --> 01:16:14.445 WordPress to WordPress for sure. 01:16:14.845 --> 01:16:17.805 from one web host to another web host, you know, moving your media 01:16:17.825 --> 01:16:21.305 from I just want my media to go to this WordPress website or whatever. 01:16:21.645 --> 01:16:25.785 So, okay, so whether or not this is just a pet project, like understanding 01:16:25.785 --> 01:16:30.835 that Matt comes up with maybe a lot of pet projects as, you know, somebody in 01:16:30.835 --> 01:16:35.735 a more innovative leadership position should be doing, like taking bets and 01:16:35.765 --> 01:16:38.975 making these different things happen. 01:16:40.605 --> 01:16:45.115 That is how it started, at least the way that I understand it with data liberation. 01:16:45.145 --> 01:16:50.595 Here's an idea, here's why we need it to get done, and let's go build it. 01:16:51.040 --> 01:16:54.500 And by let's go build it, it's just here it is, you know, WordPress 01:16:54.510 --> 01:16:55.620 community, go and build this. 01:16:56.040 --> 01:17:01.300 Now, I think what's important to understand is that if you're a developer, 01:17:02.300 --> 01:17:05.880 like you have to get your, your, this is, this is the, this is the challenge 01:17:05.880 --> 01:17:10.140 that a lot of us have with the community is we, we only see ourselves like 01:17:10.190 --> 01:17:13.980 website builders mostly, like we're the most vocal, we're doing content 01:17:13.980 --> 01:17:17.180 marketing, we're on Twitter, LinkedIn, Livestreams, doing all this stuff. 01:17:17.180 --> 01:17:17.195 Right. 01:17:17.985 --> 01:17:22.765 But there are, there's a whole group of people, much greater than the business 01:17:22.765 --> 01:17:27.155 side of WordPress, who are, who are developers, and somebody who wants to 01:17:27.155 --> 01:17:29.885 make a name for themselves, rightfully so. 01:17:30.045 --> 01:17:34.025 And you, and you love the idea of open source, and you're a fantastic developer, 01:17:34.215 --> 01:17:38.585 and how do you, how do you, Shoulder your way up in, in a community, where 01:17:38.585 --> 01:17:42.025 you want to give back to WordPress, but maybe you just don't have the podium or 01:17:42.025 --> 01:17:44.025 the stage that's, that is there for you. 01:17:44.435 --> 01:17:48.885 What he said is, hey, you could be the person who makes the Wix to WordPress 01:17:48.905 --> 01:17:51.855 converter or whatever, like you could be the person that leads that. 01:17:52.265 --> 01:17:56.025 And there's a certain allure there for somebody who wants to build that. 01:17:56.240 --> 01:17:56.470 Right? 01:17:56.480 --> 01:17:59.660 Just like if, if WordPress was like, Hey, we're doing an open 01:17:59.660 --> 01:18:01.910 call for podcasters for wordpress. 01:18:01.910 --> 01:18:05.080 org, I'd be like, yeah, I'll probably try to throw my hat into that ring. 01:18:05.080 --> 01:18:09.400 Like I, I'll try to create a story or an audio series about WordPress 01:18:09.780 --> 01:18:10.950 that I'll, that I'll contribute to. 01:18:11.010 --> 01:18:12.950 And I would feel super passionate about that. 01:18:13.190 --> 01:18:16.560 There is, there are people out there much again, much greater and 01:18:16.570 --> 01:18:20.890 much more mass than us who would be like, yes, I want to write code. 01:18:21.065 --> 01:18:24.565 In open source and give it give back to wordpress and be that person who 01:18:24.565 --> 01:18:29.175 made that wix to wordpress converter because one you either just love it You 01:18:29.175 --> 01:18:32.105 love the idea of solving this issue, which I think a lot of developers are 01:18:32.105 --> 01:18:33.715 attracted to development in general. 01:18:34.035 --> 01:18:36.225 or you're trying to make it, you're trying to build up your 01:18:36.225 --> 01:18:37.675 resume and you want to get noticed. 01:18:37.835 --> 01:18:38.745 You want to get a job. 01:18:38.755 --> 01:18:41.135 You want to, you want to be hired by Automatic. 01:18:41.155 --> 01:18:44.355 You want to be hired by some, you know, web agency or some software company. 01:18:44.355 --> 01:18:47.440 And if you're the person who made that decision, you know, made their mark on 01:18:47.440 --> 01:18:51.810 the data liberation project and you are making Wix to WordPress so much better. 01:18:52.190 --> 01:18:56.320 yeah, you've just increased your chances to be maybe hired by automatic or Wix 01:18:56.820 --> 01:19:01.030 because Wix does have an open source division, air quotes, where they give back 01:19:01.400 --> 01:19:04.700 to their own open source projects as well. 01:19:05.090 --> 01:19:08.840 So it's also a calling card to the developers who are out there who 01:19:08.850 --> 01:19:10.090 want to contribute to this stuff. 01:19:10.300 --> 01:19:11.880 And I think we only see it from one lens. 01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:13.160 We're like, Oh, that'll never happen. 01:19:13.160 --> 01:19:13.930 Who's going to do that? 01:19:14.145 --> 01:19:18.715 Well, somebody will eventually maybe step up, or if not, it 01:19:18.715 --> 01:19:20.225 doesn't, and it just dies out. 01:19:20.365 --> 01:19:24.745 and it really depends on, on Mullenweg on whether or not he says, okay, no one wants 01:19:24.745 --> 01:19:26.935 to, to jump into this open source thing. 01:19:27.565 --> 01:19:31.255 I'll take 12 people from automatic and make sure that they're contributing 01:19:31.255 --> 01:19:32.745 their time to data liberation. 01:19:35.625 --> 01:19:35.935 Mark: Yeah. 01:19:36.015 --> 01:19:39.565 I mean, uh, again, as far as the data liberation example 01:19:39.565 --> 01:19:40.615 goes, yeah, I don't know. 01:19:40.625 --> 01:19:41.185 I, it. 01:19:41.695 --> 01:19:42.945 What you laid out there makes sense. 01:19:42.955 --> 01:19:45.695 If you're, if you're a developer trying to make a name for themselves or whatever, 01:19:45.695 --> 01:19:47.565 then like those are the types of project. 01:19:47.565 --> 01:19:50.185 And Matt Mullenweg seems to be absolutely like a visionary and 01:19:50.185 --> 01:19:52.285 innovative guy as far as those things go. 01:19:52.675 --> 01:19:57.085 again, I'd be interested to see like how much of his, he is super hands on with 01:19:57.335 --> 01:20:01.195 versus just having the ideas and letting them kind of like naturally kind of flow. 01:20:01.695 --> 01:20:04.455 I'm sure there's examples of that in the past and I'll be interested to see 01:20:04.455 --> 01:20:06.185 how it moves into the, into the future. 01:20:07.525 --> 01:20:10.745 Just because I feel like everything's getting pretty big. 01:20:10.755 --> 01:20:11.665 There's a lot going on. 01:20:11.885 --> 01:20:15.685 So obviously just can't be reasonable amount of delegation. 01:20:15.685 --> 01:20:18.325 I feel like has to be, has to be continually made. 01:20:18.325 --> 01:20:20.095 And I'm sure he's doing a good bit of that. 01:20:20.715 --> 01:20:20.995 So, 01:20:21.915 --> 01:20:24.855 Matt: so I'll just, I'll, I'll sort of wrap up my side of it from call to 01:20:24.855 --> 01:20:29.155 action, you know, check out, the, the, the live stream that, Paul was supposed 01:20:29.155 --> 01:20:33.185 to host on his, on his, on his channel today, I'll paste that, in the chat. 01:20:33.215 --> 01:20:35.565 If anybody else has any other questions, go ahead and drop them in now. 01:20:35.915 --> 01:20:38.545 you know, obviously a long conversation. 01:20:38.545 --> 01:20:43.395 The, the only thing, you know, that I really, you know, have a critical 01:20:43.395 --> 01:20:47.635 take on is if you're a content creator, And you're somebody with an 01:20:47.645 --> 01:20:53.435 audience that you, you should want to be meeting in the middle, right? 01:20:53.445 --> 01:20:57.115 Like, it's not just good enough to, it's still impactful. 01:20:57.565 --> 01:21:00.455 I just think from my own point of view, like you have to try to 01:21:00.455 --> 01:21:02.500 meet in the middle and understand. 01:21:02.750 --> 01:21:05.460 Get the other person to cross aisle. 01:21:05.460 --> 01:21:06.750 And this goes on both sides, right? 01:21:06.780 --> 01:21:10.980 Like if you're an automatician, and again, we're seeing those efforts, with Nick 01:21:10.980 --> 01:21:14.780 Diego and McCarthy, you know, rich Tabor's going on shows and stuff like that. 01:21:14.970 --> 01:21:17.100 So there is a little bit of listening coming from that side. 01:21:17.390 --> 01:21:22.230 but from the content creator side, I feel like it's, It's, it's detrimental 01:21:22.230 --> 01:21:27.700 that you, that you understand, this apparatus and that you also, are, 01:21:27.780 --> 01:21:31.610 you know, meeting in the middle and contributing more than just the content. 01:21:31.700 --> 01:21:36.730 I think if you're, a thought leader, an influencer, a YouTuber, and you 01:21:36.740 --> 01:21:39.920 have the audience, that you have to do, you have to go a step further, 01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:42.460 right, as, as a leader, in my opinion. 01:21:43.135 --> 01:21:44.025 Just in my opinion. 01:21:44.255 --> 01:21:45.545 check out the live stream today. 01:21:45.645 --> 01:21:46.985 It is still a good discussion. 01:21:47.025 --> 01:21:48.485 It's making more people talk. 01:21:48.505 --> 01:21:49.905 So, yes, there's a compound effect. 01:21:49.905 --> 01:21:51.035 There's a domino effect here. 01:21:51.335 --> 01:21:54.405 check out, the, the live stream discussion that I linked up. 01:21:54.475 --> 01:21:56.325 Again, it went on, the Web Squadron channel. 01:21:56.325 --> 01:21:57.635 It was supposed to be Paul's channel. 01:21:58.005 --> 01:21:58.635 yeah, check it out. 01:21:58.635 --> 01:21:59.915 It's a good, good conversation. 01:21:59.915 --> 01:22:02.485 And folks like Mark, who's on the stream today, does a 01:22:02.485 --> 01:22:04.735 series called, Bridge Builders. 01:22:05.085 --> 01:22:06.055 Bridging the Gap. 01:22:07.265 --> 01:22:09.265 I'm not going to fill in the, what's the, what's the sub headline? 01:22:09.625 --> 01:22:10.525 Mark: I don't want to, we do, we do. 01:22:10.525 --> 01:22:10.885 We can. 01:22:10.885 --> 01:22:11.035 Yeah. 01:22:11.035 --> 01:22:13.035 It's Matt Eastwood's over on Matt Eastwood's channel. 01:22:13.045 --> 01:22:16.435 Me and, Brendan O'Connell, co hosted with him and yeah, we just look at 01:22:16.435 --> 01:22:19.605 different builders and different workflows and things like that, because 01:22:19.605 --> 01:22:22.035 I do think that that is a tough thing. 01:22:22.035 --> 01:22:26.455 None of us have an infinite hours in the day, so we can't all get like to see the 01:22:26.465 --> 01:22:28.375 behind the scenes of how everything works. 01:22:28.375 --> 01:22:30.935 And then we just hear it via rumors from, you know, different 01:22:31.015 --> 01:22:32.255 content and things like that. 01:22:32.255 --> 01:22:32.905 Oh, this is great. 01:22:32.905 --> 01:22:33.725 This is terrible. 01:22:34.290 --> 01:22:37.270 It's nice to see it, you know, and, hope and we try to package it in a 01:22:37.270 --> 01:22:40.620 short stream, but it's normally ends up being like two to three hours, but, You 01:22:40.620 --> 01:22:43.210 know, just trying to, just trying to get people different perspectives on stuff. 01:22:43.220 --> 01:22:45.450 I don't know, like I said, I don't have all the time in the world to look at 01:22:45.450 --> 01:22:49.200 all these different things, so it's cool to see it, from professionals and, 01:22:49.200 --> 01:22:52.140 that are using these different workflows and just give us a little bit of a 01:22:52.140 --> 01:22:54.670 peek behind the curtain on the other things that we're not using every day. 01:22:55.810 --> 01:22:56.060 So, yeah. 01:22:56.090 --> 01:22:56.840 Matt: Awesome stuff. 01:22:56.880 --> 01:22:59.540 everybody else, thanks for joining the stream today. 01:22:59.620 --> 01:23:03.590 thanks for hanging out, asking questions, throwing in your two cents, the WP minute. 01:23:03.725 --> 01:23:04.765 The wpminute. 01:23:04.765 --> 01:23:04.955 com. 01:23:04.955 --> 01:23:06.045 Hey, you know what's happening tomorrow? 01:23:06.345 --> 01:23:12.635 Another live stream, talking about another widely debated company, Elementor. 01:23:12.875 --> 01:23:18.725 we're going to talk about is Elementor locking you in to, my mouse keeps dying, 01:23:18.805 --> 01:23:21.285 is Elementor locking you in to AI? 01:23:21.565 --> 01:23:25.545 You can join that conversation with me, tomorrow. 01:23:25.925 --> 01:23:27.295 at 12 p. 01:23:27.295 --> 01:23:27.535 m. 01:23:27.625 --> 01:23:30.435 Eastern, right here on this channel. 01:23:30.455 --> 01:23:32.175 Let me throw up the screen one more time. 01:23:32.485 --> 01:23:32.865 youtube. 01:23:32.865 --> 01:23:38.295 com at WPMinute, joined by Ryan Logan, talking about his 01:23:38.325 --> 01:23:40.085 recent findings of Elementor. 01:23:40.095 --> 01:23:42.795 Can we shut off that pesky AI? 01:23:42.855 --> 01:23:43.825 Who's in control? 01:23:43.875 --> 01:23:46.395 We'll find out tomorrow, on the livestream, everybody. 01:23:46.555 --> 01:23:47.155 Thanks for watching. 01:23:47.245 --> 01:23:48.025 We'll see you in the next one.